http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2009/12/08/government-pledge-we-will-rebuild-kirkby-town-centre-with-or-without-everton-fc-stadium-100252-25342134/

THE Government today pledged to rebuild Kirkby town centre – whether or not the stalled Tesco-Everton bid is revived.

A regeneration blueprint will be in place by next month to regenerate a long-neglected urban area.

It has been ordered by North West minister Phil Woolas as part of a regional bid to ensure the “renaissance” of the town.

Mr Woolas said: “Just because the stadium has been knocked back does not mean that we are prepared to abandon the people of Kirkby.

“We are determined to build them a new town centre.”

Last month communities secretary John Denham pulled the plug on the proposed £400m-plus development.

Efforts are continuing to resurrect Destination Kirkby in a slimmed-down form, but that will depend on the attitude taken in coming weeks by both Tesco and Everton. Club chairman Bill Kenwright has already declared the move dead.

In the meantime, however, a “Phase One” alternative was discussed yesterday at a meeting between Mr Woolas, the council, the Northwest development agency and local MP George Howarth.

Mr Woolas said: “We are all determined to press ahead with the regeneration of Kirkby town centre regardless.

“A blueprint will be in place by next month which will involve retail, public sector, open spaces, and leisure and night-time activities.”

Any revived stadium bid would come after Phase One is under way.

Meetings involving the council and government officials will continue over the next week to determine “short-term and long-term solutions.”

The blueprint is expected, if the company and council agrees, to include a Tesco “not necessarily” on the proposed site.

And adjacent retail outlets previously earmarked for the Tesco-Everton development will be relocated.

Council leader Ron Round said Knowsley had not ruled a stadium “in or out” of future plans, but emphasised the regeneration of Kirkby town centre was the leading priority.

Good to see the focus on where it belongs - regenerating Kirkby.

:cheers:

This project gives the opportunity to either move the Merseyrail station to the centre or the centre to the station. Stations work so much better when in the centre of a district. The centre then becomes more vibrant.

Feel free to draw up your proposal...

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.48249&lon=-2.89753&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF

Feel free to draw up your proposal...

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.48249&lon=-2.89753&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF

I don't think they would listen. Looking at the Merseyrail line, there are enough points in and around Kirkby to build a stadium over the line and have a 6 platform station under. Fans then move directly into the stands - as Lords are proposing, to extend onto the Nursery End.

There's a reason people won't listen! :)

There's no reason for kirkby to have a 6 platform station.. even when a 50k capacity stadium was planned it was reliant on bus services because the train service there isn't suitable for such a big footfall generator.

There's a reason people won't listen! :)

There's no reason for kirkby to have a 6 platform station.. even when a 50k capacity stadium was planned it was reliant on bus services because the train service there isn't suitable for such a big footfall generator.

Footy fans are unbelievable. The plan was slagged because of poor transport provision.
Currently the Merseyrail station cannot shift that many fans. Although the detractors conveniently forget that the station also has Northern Rail services to Wigan and Manchester, which would be increased on match days.

The station can be made 6 platforms and the throughput increased. A 6 platform station could shift 30,000-40,000 per hour, with proper concourse facilities. Look at the Jubilee Line station at the O2 in London. Boy does that get them away fast. And nearly all the 25,000 or so go by rail. This is the model to go for.

Each 6 car train hold over 900 people. 6 trains waiting after the game can instantly shift 5,400 people minimum. At 2 minute intervals leaving to Liverpool in 10 minutes that is another 5,400 shifted, giving 10,800, in 20 minutes that is 16,200, in 30 minutes that is 21,600, 40 mins is 27,000, 50 mins is 32,400. 60 mins is 37,800.

That is not counting what Northern rail shift towards Wigan and Manchester, which in an hour could be around 5,000. Many EFC fans live out that way. So, over 40,000 shifted in an hour.

Now, if trains left the station at 1 minute intervals which is possible with 6 platforms, the whole stadium could be shifted in one hour. A problem might be getting trains back to Kirkby fast enough after they have left and delivered the fans.

Then many will stay behind in the stadium because of the facilities offered and leave later and they could be shifted by rail as well.

Uprate the station to cope and Kirkby is a winner. Many will go because of ease of rapid-transit access.

Good to see the focus on where it belongs - regenerating Kirkby.

:cheers:

Indeed.

It's time to seperate the threads now. I will start a new thread based on 'A new home for Everton FC'.

Destination Kirkby will now continue without the stadium. A official government statement was read out last night on Radio Merseyside. This coupled with Bill Kenwright stating very clearly that that "book is firmly closed" means we can now move on from the idea of a stadium in Kirkby and concentrate on ensuring the town gets it's new town centre.


Phil Woolas, Minister of State (the North West) met with Knowsley Council officials on Monday to discuss the future of Kirkby town centre following the rejection of the Destination Kirkby proposals.

Despite reports from various media outlets, he confirmed that the stadium is not on the agenda of Kirkby's regeneration: "The scheme that we are looking at for the town centre does not include a football stadium.

"What I'm saying on behalf of the government is that we're not going to abandon the need for regeneration in Kirkby just because we've been knocked back at this stage."

Everton are thought to be no longer interested in pursuing a stadium in Kirkby. The club's Chief Executive officer described the previous pursuit as 'divisive'.

George Howarth, Kirkby's MP suggested that the Everton stadium isn't a priority."My primary concern isn't about Blues fans, Everton, or the stadium. My primary concern is for the regeneration of Kirkby."

Knowsley Council leader Ronnie Round said: "We discussed options for how we are going to regenerate Kirkby and I felt as if we made significant progress.

"We all agreed that we need to maintain the momentum to ensure that the people of Kirkby have a town centre that they can be proud of.

He confirmed that Knowsley are uncertain whether any future plans are likely to include a stadium: "At this stage we are not ruling a stadium in or out of the plans but our main emphasis is on regeneration."

Additionally, a statement prepared by Phil Woolas refuting the rumours that the Kirkby stadium proposals were to be revived by Prime Minister Gordon Brown was read out by Alan Jackson on BBC Radio Merseyside (1h:53m) yesterday.

It's time to seperate the threads now. I will start a new thread based on 'A new home for Everton FC'.


You are attempting to get your agenda followed. The retail, EFC stadium, etc, were all one project to also regenerate Kirkby. They are all as one, until official statements released to the press state otherwise. Mandy is on the case.


Destination Kirkby will now continue without the stadium. A official government statement was read out last night on Radio Merseyside. This coupled with Bill Kenwright stating very clearly that that "book is firmly closed" means we can now move on from the idea of a stadium in Kirkby and concentrate on ensuring the town gets it's new town centre.

I have read no official statement from anyone. None is on the Echo site. Did you make this up?

John, club officials have said the game is up. The government released a statement on BBC Radio Merseyside. This can be heard using the BBC iplayer service.

There won't be a stadium at Kirkby. The rest of us would like to discuss what happens next for the town. Again....a stadium is not going to be built at Kirkby. END OF.

John, club officials have said the game is up. The government released a statement on BBC Radio Merseyside. This can be heard using the BBC iplayer service.

There won't be a stadium at Kirkby. The rest of us would like to discuss what happens next for the town. Again....a stadium is not going to be built at Kirkby. END OF.

Nothing like that on the BBC web site which is usually up to date - IF BBC Radio Merseyside said it last night they would have it now on the BBC web site. It says:

Aborted plans for Everton's new stadium in Kirkby could still be included in revised plans to regenerate the town.

England's bid to host the 2018 World Cup could also be a factor in returning to the plans.

At this stage we are not ruling a stadium in or out of the plans


From latest BBC report!!!!

Have had another phone call. The first was right saying maybe the PM will get involved. Everton playing their cards close to their chest. They are waiting and looking to see what is on offer, before responding. Top politicians want the project to go, retail and the stadium, with minimal amendments. World Cup is a motivator. Transport to the stadium is a problem with no offer, or ideas, of how to get around it yet. EFC see the transport as mainly a public domain problem.

It is ongoing.

All I know.

Tommy - Who are these "top politicians"?

Tommy - Who are these "top politicians"?

Voices in the little world in his head.

Nevermind the fact that Kirkby is finished in Evertons eyes and that is was impossible to fund without all the rejected retail (a decision which is legally binding whether Gordon Brown, Barack Obama, the new world order, the illuminati or even the daddy of them all, Sir Terry Leahy himself, get involved)

Can anyone tell me how Kirkby station could ever become 6 platform. It's in a very narrow cutting for a start and is single track. Plus Merseyrail stated that there was no scope to increase services on this line due to the resultant congestion and limitations at Sandhills to cope with more trains. A six platform station for a 40k town and a fortnight event venue is completely unheard of, and would probably cost as much as the stadium itself..... aint going to happen.... nor is the stadium. Elstone and Kenwright have stated such categorically. Speculation has been spun by the few trying to save their reputations by backing a non-runner.... The "book is closed on Kirkby"

Can anyone tell me how Kirkby station could ever become 6 platform. It's in a very narrow cutting for a start and is single track. Plus Merseyrail stated that there was no scope to increase services on this line due to the resultant congestion and limitations at Sandhills to cope with more trains.


Six platforms is not that difficult to do. It is single track up to the Liverpool border, after Fazarkerly,. From Fazakerly back it is two track. It is easy to put the 2nd track back, the space is there.

Better signalling can improve throughput from Kirkdale onwards.


A six platform station for a 40k town and a fortnight event venue is completely unheard of, and would probably cost as much as the stadium itself.


In your dreams. :) Extra platforms, some track and points one end is not a great expense. What is a platform? Some concrete on supports, sometimes with a cheap concrete cover to keep the rain off. Track? Rail lines, which are just steel girders. As much as stadium built? Please be sensible.


.... aint going to happen.... nor is the stadium.

No official press release has been issued. Until then......it is on. The rest of you, make things up....or dream.

You may find that Mandy & Gordon are as big as they come in the UK. Who is bigger?

Six platforms is not that difficult to do. It is single track up to the Liverpool border, after Fazarkerly,. From Fazakerly back it is two track. It is easy to put the 2nd track back, the space is there.

Better signalling can improve throughput from Kirkdale onwards.



In your dreams. :) Extra platforms, some track and points one end is not a great expense. What is a platform? Some concrete on supports, sometimes with a cheap concrete cover to keep the rain off. Track? Rail lines, which are just steel girders. As much as stadium built? Please be sensible.



No official press release has been issued. Until then......it is on. The rest of you, make thing up....or dream.

You may find that Mandy & Gordon are as big as they come in the UK. Who is bigger?

Johnny, I've been involved in the design of several train stations, you? It is never a case of just concrete, there is access and space issues galore. Is it twin track over the M57, if not you'll need a new bridge too. There is nothing like enough space at the Kirkby cutting for 6 platforms without substantial demolition with homes right upto the cutting at the station. Merseytravel stated that the only way to add capacity to that very limited end of line station was to add carriages..... end of. This was covered at the public inquiry. Kirkdale and Sandhills do not have endless scope for added services with the current system and the end of line capacity is logistical constant. As far as "Mandy and Gordon"...... I think you'll find there has been no official announcement from them at all, and this will all vanish into the depths of spin and irrelevance, the same way that previous claims that various politicians wouldn't even allow this to go to a public Inquiry. Do you remember those ridiculous claims about Labour never letting this happen etc? The outcome of the public inquiry regards the planning application was so damning that they were advised that this could never even merit an appeal.

"The book is closed on Kirkby"....... Bill Kenwright

To say that six platforms of raises concrete slabs and some track and points is the same cost as the stadium is ludicrous. That is relatively cheap to do.

Station Cutting can be back-filled

The station can be taken out of the cutting, back-filled (using spoil from the construction of the stadium?) and raised to grade. The cutting was cut when steam engines could not climb hills too well. That is not an issue these days. Then the cheap to make platforms can spread out. This will need some CPOs although not many.

Kirkby Way = Wembley Way

Kirkby Way can become a sort of Wembley Way - a big road/walkway from the station to the stadium and maybe a parking area for park & ride on non-match days. On match days have it pedestrianised and act as a concourse to filter fans into the high throughput station.

No problem in throughput on Bottleneck

A quick Bing will show that the bridges are OK to take two tracks all the way back to Fazakerly.

Kirkdale/Sandhills section is a bottleneck which is not insurmountable. The signalling needs uprating anyhow as the network is increasing in popularity. Football games do not clash with peak commuting hours, apart from an overlap on evening games - 8:00 K-off.

No official announcement by EFC

There has been no official announcement by EFC that Kirkby is closed 100%. Ian Ross, the press man has issued nothing. It would come from him. Do not tell yourself lies and believe them. What Kenright said off the cuff prior to top politicians getting involved is irrelevant. EFC could also be playing the victim here, which is clear they are with Kenright's comments to back that up as apart of the response tactic with Tesco. Another stage was entered when very top politicians entered. EFC would sit back and look and let the experts, Tesco, do the talking. Any organisation would do that - not throw their toys out of the pram.

Tesco have the expertise

Tesco have the experience, knowhow and people to negotiate at such a top level. EFC do not. Tesco know how to press the political flesh. They have put in supermarkets in places were opposition was fierce. Beaconsfield was one, with the store built over a railway track creating a tunnel, right near the station. They got what they wanted.

Amended plan has a very good chance of success

An appeal of the current plan would of course be crushed. An amended plan is another matter. They are talking of an amended plan. A phased in upgrade to the station could be a part of this. First two tracks, then better signals then a full 4 or six platform station. Kirkby has everything to gain.

A bit of me was glad about the knock back, a bit of me thought well that's that then, more stagnation and probably falling behind the rest of the pack.


I was glad because it focuses the mind on what should really have been done in the first place - but that is politics. Maybe now they will put up some public money to improve Kirkby station.


I don't seriously think people move to live within the shadow of a stadium. Maybe 10 mins away yes but nimby, what with 50 thousand people threading past their doors, litter, noise, parking problems, busy congestion - whether or not a massive new car park would be in situ - obviously not another selling point.


Kirkby Way can become a Wembley Way to an enlarged Kirkby station. It links the two. Make park & ride the norm. The whole stadium can be shifted in an hour. The reality is that many will filter out because of the internal facilities offered in the stadium.


I know of at least a couple of people at Kings Dock who feel cheated about their peace and views being shattered (part of the inflated price they paid but didn't mind at that point)


I would prefer Long Lane with the Outer Loop re-opened. It takes trains both ways. Or a branch into the Kirkby line nearby.

What this episode has clearly brought to light is that rapid-transit rail is essential for such projects. It brings in fans from far and wide easily and comfortably and right to the door with minimal interference to the locals. They will turn up.

Look how our Continental neighbours do it. A high throughput Kirkby station and a pedestrianised Kirkby Way on match days will make this stadium work minimising inconvenience to locals. Leaving rapid-transit out of LFCs stadium plan was gross incompetence by the city. It doesn't matter if a ground is already with people's lives have been made misery on 30 days of the year. Matters should be improved as new projects come about and full advantage taken of rapid top quality transport infrastructure - precedence should be ignored. We have moved on from when EFC built a stand around the end gable of house.

People tend to use whatever narratives suit their cause so whether its KEIOC or whatever was used by the pro-Kirkby lot. These are not eternal truths they're just position statements - a point to argue from in an attempt to convince others of the merits of a particular point of view.

So, for example, in order to answer the KEIOC charge people said the Kirkby is in Liverpool, too, and I guess in many ways it is part of Liverpool but it's also true to say that it isn't in Liverpool. It's important to see beyond the rhetoric to identify what is in the club's long term's interests. If 'Kirkby' was so right my guess is that there wouldn't have been such resistance to going there in the first place.

The end of 'Kirkby' means having to focus on the parlous state the club is in across the board and initially this will be dispiriting and 'Kirkby' might seem like a missed opportunity! Over time, I suspect it will be seen as a lucky escape.

I think those people who state that 'Kirkby is behind us' are right. The focus needs to be on what next rather than what might have been.

You sound as if the project is dead for ever. Er no. Not yet. Appeals, resubmissions etc. The fat lady has not sung.

Saying Kirkby is not in Liverpool is a technical point - you need to look at a map to see that. It is not a realistic point of everyday life when travelling around the conurbation. In effect it is a part of Liverpool. Disengaging Kirkby is an insult to the people of Kirkby.

Yes, my gut feeling is I can't help thinking it is a lucky escape even if what is better isn't exactly around the corner just yet. It helps that I believe things happen for a reason.

It hasn't happened yet. Most planning applications get the KB and are resubmitted.

So the knock back hasn't happened yet - funny, as I thought it had.

Yes i'm right, it's the appeal that hasn't happened yet.

The KB has happened. The appeal? It is being worked on and what form it should take. Even Gordon is getting involved.

Two weeks ago EFC were all for it, and now the detractors say EFC have stamped their foot in a temper and thrown all their toys out of the cot and don't want it, even if the PM steps in so they can have it. mmmmmmmmmmm

It is not over until the fat lady sings.

To say that six platforms of raises concrete slabs and some track and points is the same cost as the stadium is ludicrous. That is relatively cheap to do.

Station Cutting can be back-filled

The station can be taken out of the cutting, back-filled (using spoil from the construction of the stadium?) and raised to grade. The cutting was cut when steam engines could not climb hills too well. That is not an issue these days. Then the cheap to make platforms can spread out. This will need some CPOs although not many.

Kirkby Way = Wembley Way

Kirkby Way can become a sort of Wembley Way - a big road/walkway from the station to the stadium and maybe a parking area for park & ride on non-match days. On match days have it pedestrianised and act as a concourse to filter fans into the high throughput station.

No problem in throughput on Bottleneck

A quick Bing will show that the bridges are OK to take two tracks all the way back to Fazakerly.

Kirkdale/Sandhills section is a bottleneck which is not insurmountable. The signalling needs uprating anyhow as the network is increasing in popularity. Football games do not clash with peak commuting hours, apart from an overlap on evening games - 8:00 K-off.

No official announcement by EFC

There has been no official announcement by EFC that Kirkby is closed 100%. Ian Ross, the press man has issued nothing. It would come from him. Do not tell yourself lies and believe them. What Kenright said off the cuff prior to top politicians getting involved is irrelevant. EFC could also be playing the victim here, which is clear they are with Kenright's comments to back that up as apart of the response tactic with Tesco. Another stage was entered when very top politicians entered. EFC would sit back and look and let the experts, Tesco, do the talking. Any organisation would do that - not throw their toys out of the pram.

Tesco have the expertise

Tesco have the experience, knowhow and people to negotiate at such a top level. EFC do not. Tesco know how to press the political flesh. They have put in supermarkets in places were opposition was fierce. Beaconsfield was one, with the store built over a railway track creating a tunnel, right near the station. They got what they wanted.

Amended plan has a very good chance of success

An appeal of the current plan would of course be crushed. An amended plan is another matter. They are talking of an amended plan. A phased in upgrade to the station could be a part of this. First two tracks, then better signals then a full 4 or six platform station. Kirkby has everything to gain.

Johnny, this is all pure fantasy!

There is no amended plan, and certainly none including a stadium. EFC met with KEIOC and others only last week to discuss ideas regarding redevelopment and other options.

As regards 6 platform stations...... Only last year Manchester airport opened a new platform at its station it cost £15m. The original whole station (2 platforms) cost £60m 15 yrs ago, and it copes with millions of passengers per year, with projected use of the order of 16 million passengers per year in the next decade or 2. A station at Kirkby wouldn't get one tenth of that even with a stadium and therefore would never merit the investment.... hence the reason why the mighty tesco and Knowsley council never even included such in their transport plan. Is never going to happen!

By the way by definition, there is next to no spoil when building on top of a landfill.

BTW, you also never voted for Kirkby, as you are not a season ticket holder.

Johnny, this is all pure fantasy!

There is no amended plan, and certainly none including a stadium. EFC met with KEIOC and others only last week to discuss ideas regarding redevelopment and other options.


All that was before Mandy and Gordon got on the case. Ian Ross the EFC press secretary, has released nothing official saying EFC are out 100% Until that time it is still on, and people are working behind the scenes to get something together from the highest levels. It may not happen, but right now, it is still on. Do not tell yourself lies to give yourself a warm smug feeling.

KEIOC? get real. A minority pressure group attempting to push their agenda. EFC are appeasing them. Their web site is geared to stay at GP, that is the prime focus. They are totally naive with no idea of how the footy ball business is run today.

At near 40,000 capacity each week, EFC can't generate enough revenue from that old crock. The club is punching above its weight because of a manager who can do something with mainly poor players, cast off players and on-loan players. If it was rebuilt with new stands it still can't, as its is just shuffling the deck-chairs on the Titanic. An extra 10.000 will still not hope to compete with Arsenal's and Man Us income from stadia.

EFC need a 60,000 minimum high facility stadium with a rapid-transit access to guarantee high gates - the ease of access will guarantee pop concerts etc, in summer. GP can't do that no matter what you do to it. You can't make a silk pure from a sous ear. Do not allow emotion to rule the head.


As regards 6 platform stations...... Only last year Manchester airport opened a new platform at its station it cost £15m. The original whole station (2 platforms) cost £60m


That included the rail lines into the airport. Kirkby has all that.

Six platforms of raised concrete frames and some rail lines and an extra track running about a mile will not cost silly money. You attempting to skew matters by taking the worse case examples and passing them off as consensual.


Hence the reason why the mighty tesco and Knowsley council never even included such in their transport plan.


The tram money can be diverted. There was money available for a useless over expensive Line 1 tram that snailed its way to Liverpool. No one could see the benefit, not even the locals. Divert that money to an uprated Kirkby station, which serves Wigan and Manchester, and the benefits are more tangible.

Say 30 games a year where 30,000 are shifted each way, so 60,000 trips per game. that is 1.8 million minimum in football alone. Then there is the normal daily traffic and the traffic that would increase because of superior facilities and the extra traffic the other way to Wigan/Manchester. And the kudos of having a modern high facility station, instead of a glorified windswept bus stop.


BTW, you also never voted for Kirkby, as you are not a season ticket holder.

You will never know.

All that was before Mandy and Gordon got on the case. Ian Ross the EFC press secretary, has released nothing official saying EFC are out 100%/ Until tat time it is still on, and people are working behind the scenes to get something together.

There is nothing "official" to say either are "on the case" at all. All these stories have stemmed from one locally generated piece of lazy journalism, which Elstone was quick to rubbish. The sensationalist stories intended to stoke up the fires have all evaporated. Gordon Brown knows nothing and cares even less about Everton's stadium woes. The only "official" mentions at all regard a much reduced Kirkby town redevelopment...... and state specifically that a stadium is not involved.

KEIOC? get real. A minority pressure group attempting to push their agenda. EFC are appeasing them.

Minority? Not one single stadium poll on any EFC website or even the Echo's website shows them to be a minority. Even at the time of the vote the yes vote never mustered a majority, it would be extremely lucky to break even 5%support now based on all these polls and the multiple exposed frailties of the scheme. At the last EGM and AGM no-one was left in any doubt about who the minority were, with next to no shareholders expressing support for Kirkby throughout. When Kings Dock was voted for the scheme received many times the support that DK did (including yourself), there was even support websites. DK has never enjoyed anything similar. KEIOC is a group of professional people whose efforts at the Public Inquiry were highly commended as being far more comprehensive than the expensively constructed application.


That included the rail lines into the airport. Kirkby has all that.

Six platforms of raised concrete and some rail lines and an extra track running about a mile will not cost silly money. So attempting to skew matters.

Kirkby has only a single track, so it hasn't got all of that at all. Like I said before it isn't just a case of six raised platforms (surely only 4 would be needed for 6 track with one already in place:ohno:), and there isn't even anything close to enough space for 6 tracks in anycase.



The tram money can be diverted. There was money available for a useless over expensive Line 1 tram that snailed its way to Liverpool. No one could see the benefit, not even the locals. Divert that money to an uprated Kirkby station, which serves Wigan and mancheswter, and the benefits are more tangible.

The tram money was supposed to be for a whole new line, not one station. It would never be released for such a limited return.

Say 30 games a year where 30,000 are shifted each way, so 60,000 trips per game. that is 1.8 million minimum in football alone. Then there is the normal daily traffic and the traffic that would increase because of superior facilities and the extra traffic the other way to Wigan/Manchester. And the kudos of having a modern high facility station, instead of a glorified windswept bus stop.

The normal daily traffic is miniscule and nowhere near that of the example I mentioned which merited the level of investment. This is the problem with any peripheral site, the infrastructure simply is not there, hence the reason why out of town stadia are becoming extinct in most countries. No-one envisages 60% public transport useage nevermind train useage in any of their projections, but even if they did, that would equate to more than a train a minute..... there is nothing like that capacity in the rest of the system and would require wholesale changes for the whole Kirkby line and at Sandhills and Kirkdale too, not to mention enough trains and drivers on the merseyrail system..... and all for a fortnightly event venue? Sorry, but there is nothing comparable anywhere and it's never going to happen. This has never even been remotely suggested as feasible by Merseytravel or Tesco or Knowsley or anyone of their experts during the entire public inquiry for obvious reasons. These are just suggestions out of thin air.

You will never know.[/QUOTE]

Well, it would be very easy for you to prove, but you wont, because you can't! I can in an instant!

There is nothing "official" to say either are "on the case" at all. All these stories have stemmed from one locally generated piece of lazy journalism, which Elstone was quick to rubbish. The sensationalist stories intended to stoke up the fires have all evaporated. Gordon Brown knows nothing and cares even less about Everton's stadium woes. The only "official" mentions at all regard a much reduced Kirkby town redevelopment...... and state specifically that a stadium is not involved.


As they are going for the stadium and the procedure has not been finalised, so they are still going for it. It is very simple. It they were not an official statement would be made from Ian Ross.


Minority? Not one single stadium poll on any EFC


Everton fans voted to go to Kirkby. FULL STOP!!!!


website or even the Echo's website shows them to be a minority. Even at the time of the vote the yes vote never mustered a majority,


It did. More voted to go than not.The vote was monitored by some organisation.


KEIOC is a group of professional people whose efforts at the Public Inquiry were highly commended as being far more comprehensive than the expensively constructed application.


They web site does not indicate that at all. They show a high degree of naivety. The web site is rarely used look at the hits in the forum. Few and far between.

To portray Kirkby as remote town is insulting to Kirkby and its people who are Liverpudlians by origin and nature. It is apart of Liverpool in all pa5ractical aspects. So why do these strange people want to stop EFC building a necessary stadium to project the club forwards? Ask yourself that question? Then look at the web site which is c;early a veil to keep EFC at GP. As I have emphasised to you, the club will decline staying there - you do not appear to realise this.

Look a the motive of this organisation. Professional people? I heard the spokesman on TV, and he came across as if he worked at the bagwash.


Kirkby has only a single track, so it hasn't got all of that at all. Like I said before it isn't just a case of six raised platforms (surely only 4 would be needed for 6 track with one already in place), and there isn't even anything close to enough space for 6 tracks in anycase.


I know it has a single track and if you read what I wrote it needs another track back to near Aintree racecourse where it becomes twin. The bed is already there. The bridges are fine. Putting a six platform station there is not difficult at all - pre-cast concrete stations are cheap these days. A Lego kit. There is a large car park which can be built over when the cutting is filled in, with CPOs. Kirkby Way can change its function to serve the station and act as a Wembley Way and act as parking on non-match days - something you never thought of. Or no one else has thought of.

Uprating that station is not a big expensive project as you scaremongeringly attempt to put forward. That station made to high throughput will enhance EFC and made the stadium work and benefit Kirkby as a community.


The tram money was supposed to be for a whole new line, not one station. It would never be released for such a limited return.


Uprating Kirkby station will cost button to the £400-450 million needed for one silly unneeded line. Uprate Kirby station and add the odd station on the line, uprate the frequencies and it will still cost buttons to the snailing tram line, and offer more all around.


The normal daily traffic is miniscule and nowhere near that of the example I mentioned which merited the level of investment. This is the problem with any peripheral site, the infrastructure simply is not there, hence the reason why out of town stadia are becoming extinct in most countries.


Those in the USA are now viewed to be mistakes, cluttering up the city centres.

Rapid-transit rail infrastructure encourages investment. A smart modern station with Kirby Way remodelled will give a great image to Kirkby and make it more attractive. The station is not at the end of a line, it connects with two major cities and sizeable town easily. It has been trying to shake off its not justified poor image for a long time. Investment in infrastructure works. Investment in image works.

No one has even looked at it properly.

I wonder if Tommy's had any more phone calls that can shed light on the current situation.

I wonder if Tommy's had any more phone calls that can shed light on the current situation.

The last one didn't shed any light, so why should any other?

The tram money was supposed to be for a whole new line, not one station. It would never be released for such a limited return.


The tram was spouted to benefit Norris Green. Now, uprate Kirkby station to 6 platforms, add the odd station along the line, then branch into the Outer Loop east of Rice lane stn and leave a station at Norris Green and maybe one at Clubmoor and Long lane. This will benefit people more, and cost buttons, than that horrendously expensive Kirkby tram line.

[QUOTE=John Williams;48249161]As they are going for the stadium and the procedure has not been finalised, so they are still going for it. It is very simple. It they were not an official statement would be made from Ian Ross.

No-one is saying they are going for the stadium except you. Not Tesco, not Knowsley and most importantly not Everton. Ian Ross doesn't have to say anything when the chairman and CEO have stated that it's over. No mention whatsoever of any appeal on the official site that carried all things DK from day one.


Everton fans voted to go to Kirkby. FULL STOP!!!!

I suggest you read your ballot papers and the result again then. Less than 50% voted for EFC to "continue considering Kirkby" only. Support for the scheme diminished continually and dramatically on EVERY supporters website as each fabrication was exposed. The latest polls showing next to no support for DK. I challenge you to find a single poll in its favour since the vote. You cannot because they do not exist.


They web site does not indicate that at all. They show a high degree of naivety. The web site is rarely used look at the hits in the forum. Few and far between.

They got over 40% of the vote after only a few weeks to make their argument. By the end of the Public Inquiry Tesco's people had stopped cross-examining since they were getting shot down every time..... read any transcripts to see this.

To portray Kirkby as remote town is insulting to Kirkby and its people who are Liverpudlians by origin and nature. It is apart of Liverpool in all pa5ractical aspects. So why do these strange people want to stop EFC building a necessary stadium to project the club forwards? Ask yourself that question? Then look at the web site which is c;early a veil to keep EFC at GP. As I have emphasised to you, the club will decline staying there - you do not appear to realise this.

Kirkby, like Speke or Halewood is a remote outpost regardless of its scouseness or connections. KEIOC would be equally opposed to a move to Speke, Croxteth, New Brighton or any other peripheral site. Nowhere does KEIOC state that their motive is to simply keep EFC at Goodison, they even promoted the Scotland Rd option so that completely refutes that argument.

Look a the motive of this organisation. Professional people? I heard the spokesman on TV, and he came across as if he worked at the bagwash.

Dave Kelly has wiped the floor with every spokesman that has been put against him and could buy and sell you John. Likewise the other members of the group are all established professionals in their fields. Trevor Skempton is a renowned architect and city planner of note and Colin Fitz has his own business as do several others..... meanwhile you just come on here plucking figures out of thin air and inventing stuff.... could it be your just terrified of a dock being occupied by a stadium. There are several fine examples around the world.


I know it has a single track and if you read what I wrote it needs another track back to near Aintree racecourse where it becomes twin.

Isn't aintree on the Ormskirk line?


The bed is already there. The bridges are fine.

How do you know? You didn't even know what line it was on. Have you surveyed the bridge for 2 track running?


[QUOTE] Putting a six platform station there is not difficult at all - pre-cast concrete stations are cheap these days. A LOgo kit. There is a large car park which can be built over when the cutting is filled in, with CPOs.

That would meean infilling thousands of tons of earth to raise the track at least 5 metres over hundreds of metres, and where would a car park go as the existing one is heavily used?



Kirkby Way can change its function to serve the station and act as a Wembley Way and act as parking on non-match days - something you never thought of. Or no one else has thought of.

I think there is a a more realistic reason why it has never been "thought of", and that's because its totally unfeasible.


Those in the USA are now viewed to be mistakes, cluttering up the city centres.

Johnny, there are books and books been written about their success. They have also prompted the biggest stadium building boom in the USA in a century. Meanwhile out of town stadia, some just 30yrs old have been coming down all over the place.

Season Tkt number? or easier again, what colour where they this year and last? :lol:

The last one didn't shed any light, so why should any other?

Not to you maybe but for people out of the loop like me, Kenwright, Elstone etc. :lol:

No-one is saying they are going for the stadium except you. Not Tesco, not Knowsley and most importantly not Everton. Ian Ross doesn't have to say anything when the chairman and CEO have stated that it's over. No mention whatsoever of any appeal on the official site that carried all things DK from day one.


The chairman's remarks were off the cuff and before Mandy & Brown came in. You have now been told this three time. EFC were in the running for stadium and it is still on and the process is still continuing. I heard no fat lady sing.


I suggest you read your ballot papers and the result again


The majority voted to go to Kirkby. FULL STOP. What you are saying is like we should abandon the government because a poll in the Time put Cameron ahead last year.


Kirkby, like Speke or Halewood is a remote outpost regardless of its scouseness or connections.


bollox!!!! Utter bollox. That are a part of Liverpool with a Liverpool identity.

By the way. when EFC first played at


When Everton first played on Stanley Park it was outside the city boundary.
When Everton first played at Priory Road it was outside the city boundary.
When Everton first played at Anfield it was outside the city boundary.
When Everton first played at Goodison Park it was outside the city boundary.
When Everton play in Kirkby it will be outside the city boundary.


Knowsley is an artificial council rimming Liverpool and should be incorporated into Liverpool. This council came about as Liverpool Council refused to incorporate Kirkby and Halewood in the city as the Boundaries Commission suggested. Kirkby is in all intents a part of Liverpool, as is Bootle, Halewood, Birkenhead, Wallasey, etc. There is talk of extending Liverpool to incorporate Knowsley and parts of Sefton.

The city always followed Everton.

The protracted stadium move over now 12 years has eaten at the club - this results from poor club management. From the biggest in the UK to second tier. There are no Arabs waiting with pot of gold ready to save Everton - Everton have a poor image. If EFC stay at Goodison Park, be prepared for Championship football.

It would be nice to set up inside Liverpool city limits, however the finances dictate otherwise.

Below: Everton at Anfield with the city border running through the current Kop end.

http://i45.tinypic.com/1ovn0z.jpg


KEIOC would be equally opposed to a move to Speke, Croxteth,


Which are inside the city. Their motive is to keep EFC at GP and hence decline.


Dave Kelly has wiped the floor with every spokesman that has been put against him and could buy and sell you John.


I doubt it! I heard a few of them outside of the ground talking to somekids. It was all the emotional lines. "Our home". Well the 4th actually. "we have always been there" Well EFC haven't. "full of history" Only EFC history which started before GP. Anfield is more important to EFCs history than GP as the club was formed there as a big club and they won their first title there.



plucking figures out of thin air and inventing stuff.... could it be your just terrified of a dock being occupied by a stadium. There are several fine examples around the world.


I have invented nothing.


Isn't aintree on the Ormskirk line?


The other side.


I think there is a more realistic reason why it has never been "thought of", and that's because its totally unfeasible.


No one thought of it to do a feasibility study.

The inner-city stadia in the USA have proven to clog up the centres. They are now old hat and back to real locations.

Knowsley is an artificial council rimming Liverpool

:runaway:

The chairman's remarks were off the cuff and before Mandy & Brown came in. You have now been told this three time. EFC were in the running for stadium and it is still on and the process is still continuing. I heard no fat lady sing.

Elston's remarks weren't off the cuff and were specifically about the report of it being back on, which itself has since been refuted by the club and even knowsley. I'd say that means the Grand fat old lady is singing loud and clear.... not to mention the irrevocable outcome of an expensive Public Inquiry!

The majority voted to go to Kirkby. FULL STOP. What you are saying is like we should abandon the government because a poll in the Time put Cameron ahead last year.

Again, The majority didn't vote to go to Kirkby. Less than half those balloted voted to let the club consider Kirkby..... nothing more.



bollox!!!! Utter bollox. That are a part of Liverpool with a Liverpool identity.

Go easy on the "bollox" Johnny. Kirkby is surrounded by countryside and disconnected from the main connurbation. The inhabitants may be scousers, but they DO NOT LIVE IN LIVERPOOL. Many of Runcorn's and Skem's residents similarly. This is not an insult..... just a fact!

By the way. when EFC first played at


When Everton first played on Stanley Park it was outside the city boundary.
When Everton first played at Priory Road it was outside the city boundary.
When Everton first played at Anfield it was outside the city boundary.
When Everton first played at Goodison Park it was outside the city boundary.
When Everton play in Kirkby it will be outside the city boundary.


BTW, when Everton were formed there was barely a blade of grass or spare square yard in inner city Liverpool that wasn't occupied since the city had literally become one of the most densely populated cities in the world..... hardly the case now! Also, at the time that EFC moved to Goodison, Walton was already part of the Liverpool Borough council, and the main connurbation was expanding massively well beyond Mere green with many of the main streets already well established, and with a population growth greater than 100,000 per decade and would continue to do so for another 50 years or more. Kirkby has none of this and never will. It will always bee surrounded by countryside.


Knowsley is an artificial council rimming Liverpool and should be incorporated into Liverpool. This council came about as Liverpool Council refused to incorporate Kirkby and Halewood in the city as the Boundaries Commission suggested. Kirkby is in all intents a part of Liverpool, as is Bootle, Halewood, Birkenhead, Wallasey, etc. There is talk of extending Liverpool to incorporate Knowsley and parts of Sefton.

I agree it probably should, but it will always be peripheral, and that goes against all modern stadium planning philosophy.... I suggest you read any book on the subject.... you could start with Rod Sheard's "The Stadium" for instance.,

The city always followed Everton.

No it didn't follow Everton, it expanded because it's population exploded and Liverpool swallowed up the outlying districts at a pace. This hasn't been the case for generations.

The protracted stadium move over now 12 years has eaten at the club - this results from poor club management. From the biggest in the UK to second tier. There are no Arabs waiting with pot of gold ready to save Everton - Everton have a poor image. If EFC stay at Goodison Park, be prepared for Championship football.

Who's scaremongering now? I'm affraid several top 6 finishes over the past few years refutes that completely. Meanwhile several clubs with new stadia have dropped a league or 2 in the same period. Mismanagement led to the club grasping at a scheme that was never stadium led without considering the options proven by the complete absence of any other stadium feasibility study. Now they have to consider the options properly.

I doubt it! I heard a few of them outside of the ground talking to somekids. It was all the emotional lines. "Our home". Well the 4th actually. "we have always been there" Well EFC haven't. "full of history" Only EFC history which started before GP. Anfield is more important to EFCs history than GP as the club was formed there as a big club and they won their first title there.

Nice story John..more likely to find KEIOC inside the ground talking to the CEO. Anfield is nowhere near as important or part of the club's history as Goodison. Many people don't even know we played there, while we have played at GP for nearly 120yrs, and all our greatest have played there. There quite frankly isn't a comparison. Read any book on Everton's history, and see how much is allocated to Anfield despite it's quirky relevance.


The inner-city stadia in he USA have proven top clog up the centres. They are now old hat and back to real locations.[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't have a problem citing a few references then. Remarkable that they are still building them too.

Good map John. I grew up in the area so it is of some interest to me.Ta

I like the map, nice tramlines.

Tom, you only read what you want to read.


The majority who voted to go to Kirkby. An outside organisation monitored the vote. Those who did not vote in effect accept the decision of those who do. That is democracy. FULL STOP.
Kirkby is not disconnected from the main conurbation at all. The inhabitants are scousers.
At the time that EFC moved to Goodison, Walton was not a part of the Liverpool Borough council. Every home was initially OUTSIDE the city. I even gave you a map.
Several top 6 finishes over the past few years in a club punching above its weight with a manager who will probably be off to Man U when Ferg dies of alcohol poisoning. This distorts the real club under. Wait until they get a mediocre manager and then see the club slide. They are now in the same boat as Wolves, who must get more revenues from their ground.
Several clubs with new stadia have reached the Prem for the first time in over 100 years, Wigan, Reading. New stadia revived Bolton and Sunderland.
Anfield is more important to the club's history as Goodison. The club was basically formed there as a big club. Look at the map, stands all around, holding over 20,000 and the first league title and England played Ireland there as well it was so good for the time.
Anfield is what made the club. GP was just another further ground - FACT.

I like the map, nice tramlines.

Horse drawn.

The majority who voted to go to Kirkby. An outside organisation monitored the vote. Those who did not vote in effect accept the decision of those who do. That is democracy. FULL STOP.

Democracy normally offers options to vote for, not Hobson's choice! But, I'll state again, the majority of those balloted did not vote for DK, and those that did, didn't give a mandate to move, just agreed to look at that option further...... full stop!

Kirkby is not disconnected from the main conurbation at all. The inhabitants are scousers.

It is 8 miles plus from the city centre and the conurbation isn't continuous with a motorway cutting it off with only a handfull of traffic lanes feeding it, as you would expect for a housing estate of just 40k.


At the time that EFC moved to Goodison, Walton was not a part of the Liverpool Borough council. Every home was initially OUTSIDE the city. I even gave you a map.

Borough council and city council are 2 different things. Walton had a vast population by the time EFC arrived with hundreds of thousands around it. Kirkby is a housing estate with nothing beyond it.


Several top 6 finishes over the past few years in a club punching above its weight with a manager who will probably be off to Man U when Ferg dies of alcohol poisoning. This distorts the real club under. Wait until they get a mediocre manager and then see the club slide. They are now in the same boat as Wolves, who must get more revenues from their ground.

Pure speculation. Whereas the top 6 finishes are fact.

Several clubs with new stadia have reached the Prem for the first time in over 100 years, Wigan, Reading. New stadia revived Bolton and Sunderland.

How are Southampton, Leicester doing? How many trophies have Arsenal won at the Emirates? Who are top of the pile in their old grounds? Point being.... getting a new build doesn't guarantee success, just as keeping your old one doesn't negate it either..... in otherwords a nothing argument!


Anfield is more important to the club's history as Goodison. The club was basically formed there as a big club. Look at the map, stands all around, holding over 20,000 and the first league title and England played Ireland there as well it was so good for the time.
Anfield is what made the club. GP was just another further ground - FACT.
[/QUOTE]

Goodison just another ground.....? Read any book on the history of stadia to see the number of firsts at GP, not to mention the number of achievements on the pitch..... There is no comparison as the vast majority of our honours greatest games and greatest players all graced Goodison as did Pele et al. Only the best read football historians could name a single player from our Anfield days yet you think Anfield is bigger in our history, many outside Liverpool don't even know we played there..... read the history of Everton FC, watch the dvd..... sorry, not even close.

Democracy normally offers options to vote for, not Hobson's choice!


Two choices, go to Kirkby or, much like the general election. Those who vote , most went for the Kirkby option. FULL STOP Footy fans are amazing!" They tell themselves lies and believe it.

The conurbation is continuous into Kirkby. A motorway is east of Liverpool (M62) maybe they are not in Liverpool.

Walton was not in Liverpool when EFC moved there - FACT!

Not Pure speculation. EFC do not have the money (income ) to compete with the top 3.

Arsenal have a vastly increased income to EFC. That mean they are compete in the Euro Champs League while EFC do not.

Goodison is just another ground as EFC have had 4. Many firsts at GP, but time to move on. Otherwise EFC may be like Venice. Old and historic, and worth visiting now and then, but the modern world left it behind.

EFC were made at Anfield. Well, so were LFC as well. See:
http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/History_of_Everton_FC

Two choices, go to Kirkby or, much like the general election. Those who vote , most went for the Kirkby option. FULL STOP Footy fans are amazing!" They tell themselves lies and believe it.

Actually I have the ballot literature with me now. How come the previous redevelopment scheme wasn't included as an option I wonder? How come the scheme produced by KEIOC wasn't I wonder? How come there wasn't an alternative despite the fact that Bill Kenwright himself helped fund that design? The vote was to give the club permission to explore the Kirkby option further and less than half voted yes..... No lies at all.

The conurbation is continuous into Kirkby. A motorway is east of Liverpool (M62) maybe they are not in Liverpool.

Houses are not built on the M57, so it is not continuous at all. Liverpool exists on both sides of the M62. Only 2 dual carriageways pierce the M57 into Kirkby from the main conurbation, one is already running at or near capacity for long spells in the day. This was all highlighted at the Public Inquiry and was also instrumental in the rejection as the concensus was that the transport strategy was a joke even after multiple revisions they couldn't make the model work.


Walton was not in Liverpool when EFC moved there - FACT!

Walton lost its independence in 1836 when it joined the Liverpool borough council, it became part of the city in 1895, but what is the relevance......for all of its history Goodison Park has been well inside the conurbation and has been surrounded by high density population. Kirkby is none of this despite having been built 50+ years ago. You don't locate a business away from the centre of its client base.

Not Pure speculation. EFC do not have the money (income ) to compete with the top 3.

Fergie's alcoholism and Moyes' future intentions are pure speculation unless you know both of them very well ofcourse.

Arsenal have a vastly increased income to EFC. That mean they are compete in the Euro Champs League while EFC do not.

How far did Arsenal move (a few hundred yards)? Why didn't they take the much cheaper option of building outside the M25 as they were offered? What about Leicester and Southampton.... how are they doing in their shiny new sheds? How are Man Utd and Chelsea doing in their redeveloped stadia? It's all a non-argument. Everyone knows the club needs some extra capacity and improved corporate facilities, but location is all important and Kirkby doesn't cut it, being at a grossly inadequately served out of town site (kirkby has only a fraction of Waltons Public transport capacity and far fewer road lanes serving it. It has less than 3% of the city-centre's public transport capacity. There are only 22 boxes (supposed to be 38 at the vote, with 120 at WHL) with low level corporate facilities, mid level design (supposed to be state of the art) with an average attendance requirement of near capacity to yield max £6m operating profits. Hardly the cash cow presented, and far below the equivalent for Arsenal. One new stand at GP could more than match this for half the price or less. 2 new stands would eclipse it, and modifications to other stands take that much further. The Loop site needed only a £65m outlay according to independent projections and the Kings Dock even less because more central developments generate substantially richer enablers than out of town retail parks as they are basic, single storey and limited scope. No-one wants skyscrapers or penthouse apartments in Kirkby. Development values in and around the city centre being multi-storey and broader scope are measured in £Billions.

Goodison is just another ground as EFC have had 4. Many firsts at GP, but time to move on. Otherwise EFC may be like Venice. Old and historic, and worth visiting now and then, but the modern world left it behind.

EFC were made at Anfield. Well, so were LFC as well. See:
http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/History_of_Everton_FC[/QUOTE]

Everton were born before Anfield. Everton have had almost 120yrs at Goodison won 8 league championships, 5 FA cups and 1 European cup winners cup, great names like: Dixie, Sagar, Lawton, Mercer, Hickson, Jones, Kay, Harvey, Kendall, Ball, Reid, Sharpy, Gray......... and god knows how many others, can you name one from pre-1892? The first truly purpose built footy stadium in the world, the first with a double-decker..... first with 2, then 3, then 4 double-deckers, the first with a triple-tier in the UK. The first stadium to witness England lose to a foreign country. The stadium that hosted the most World cup games outside of wembley including Pele's Brazil and Eusebio's Portugal......
There are many books written about Everton at Goodison Park. The Anfield episode, however interesting and quirky normally commands a tiny percentage of the wordage if any at all. We never even played in Royal Blue there! haha

yep, your right, just another ground!:ohno:

More people voted to go Kirkby that those who did not. Independently monitored.
Kirby is a part of Liverpool in reality, as Salford is a part of Manchester. If the Merseyrail station was made to 6 platforms, transport is then addressed.
Walton became part of the city in 1895, as you said.
Moyes cannot perform miracles for ever. Once he goes decline, if further revenues are not gained.
Arsenal moved a few hundred yards because they have 5 rail stations with 15 minutes walk. Two immediately on the stadium.
GP is past its sell-by date and cannot produce enough revenue to compete with the top 3. Spending millions on a tart-up is pouring good money down the drain. It is like shuffling deck-chairs on the Titanic.
Everton were born before Anfield, and the prime history that made club was done while there. Not Priory Rd or GP.

More people voted to go Kirkby that those who did not. Independently monitored.

When furnished with one option, supported by several lies long since exposed and only doom as the alternative still substantially less than 50% of those balloted returend a yes vote..... not a majority, and certainly would never be repeated now. Did you see the result of the Shareholders vote?

Kirby is a part of Liverpool in reality, as Salford is a part of Manchester. If the Merseyrail station was made to 6 platforms, transport is then addressed.

In reality, there is nothing accurate in those whole statement. Also, Salford borders onto Manchester city centre and the centre of the entire conurbation, so I'm not sure of the relevance. There will also never be 6 platforms at Kirkby, and no-one except you as ever mentioned such despite an exhaustive public inquiry and multiple revisions of the transport strategy.... I wonder why?


Walton became part of the city in 1895, as you said.

You seem to have missed the point, the whole issue is the distance from the centre of the conurbation, the centre of the fanbase and the central local and national transport hubs and mass transit capacity. Goodison has always been much closer to all these than Kirkby and always will be.


Moyes cannot perform miracles for ever. Once he goes decline, if further revenues are not gained.

A mid level stadium with just 11 more boxes than GP now, in area we can't get to as easily as the current stadium, further away from the CBD and the more affluent south Liverpool and Wirral districts will not produce further revenues, nor fill the limited and poor quality corporate facilities.

Arsenal moved a few hundred yards because they have 5 rail stations with 15 minutes walk. Two immediately on the stadium.

Kirkdale is closer to GP than Kirkby station was to the proposed stadium, by several hundred metres, It also has over 6 times the capacity. Sandhills is close enough to provide a shuttle service using only a handfull of buses and provides even greater capacity and direct routes to all Northern line stations, with Wirral line and National rail links minutes away..... Kirkby doesn't even come close.


GP is past its sell-by date and cannot produce enough revenue to compete with the top 3. Spending millions on a tart-up is pouring good money down the drain. It is like shuffling deck-chairs on the Titanic.

Some parts can be preserved and enhanced and some completely redeveloped to produce the most unique stadium in the world on the site of the world's first true footy stadium.... Wash yer mouth out Johnny, the Grand old lady needn't ever be a tart! Ever game the commentators wax lyrical about the place, and it's growing in historical status every time its mentioned.

Everton were born before Anfield, and the prime history that made club was done while there. Not Priory Rd or GP.
[/list][/QUOTE]

It doesn't represent the begining of our club, and it certainly doesn't represent the majority of our history and heritage by a long margin.... 8 yrs and one trophy almost pales into insignificance compared to what we created at GP, a stadium without equal in Britain for the vast majority of its history.

You found your season tkt yet?

Stop carping on about a legitimate monitored vote - you are obsessed.

No-one except me has ever mentioned 6 platforms at Kirkby because they do not think logically like me. None-thinking people has been a big problem.

The fanbase of EFC is far and wide. Kirby is only a few miles away, not in Milton Keynes.

Kirkdale is closer to GP than Kirkby station but through narrow streets. Kirkby has Kirkby Which can be a Wembley Way.

The grand old lady needn't ever be a tart! It will be when those renders are realised. Nothing of the old structures will remain, so what is the point? May as well put a stadium in the best location you can with rapid-transit rail access shifting 30,000 an hour.

Anfield is where Everton's beginnings a big club was, not GP. They happen to have been there longer. Before Anfield, EFC were little more than a parks team amateur outfit.

Here are my season tickets:
http://i49.tinypic.com/29blyr5.jpg

Fucking hell John, you're older than I thought. :lol:

I've just had a phone call. 6 platforms will not be happening.

Here are my season tickets:
http://i49.tinypic.com/29blyr5.jpg

Do you live in some fantasy world where you feel the need to make things up?

I've just had a phone call. 6 platforms will not be happening.

Is it 8?

Do you live in some fantasy world where you feel the need to make things up?

They are season tickets?

They are season tickets?

That's right...from the 1890's

That's right...from the 1890's

As in 1889-90.

That's right...from the 1890's

I don't see what that's got to do with it.

^^^^ You're only on this thread because you know you'll get a response from people. You've said yourself your not really interested in football,so why antagoniize people by posting fabrication,conjecture and heresay as fact? simply because that's your raison d'etre.

They are season tickets?

Haha, amazing what you can download off the France collection website. I too have got my dad's season tkts from the 30's, 40's and 50's, doesn't mean I used them myself.

I take that as confirmation that you haven't had a season tkt in many years (if at all) and that you certainly never got the vote. So why say you had, and therefore why the ridiculously inaccurate statement at the bottom of your posts?

Says a lot about the lack of substance in your posts!

^^^^ You're only on this thread because you know you'll get a response from people. You've said yourself your not really interested in football,so why antagoniize people by posting fabrication,conjecture and heresay as fact? simply because that's your raison d'etre.

Oh NO! Not another footy obsessive. I am not interested in emotion and nostalgia. Read Toms posts full of it. I am into fact and logical reasoning.

Oh NO! Not another footy obsessive. I am not interested in emotion and nostalgia. Read Toms posts full of it. I am into fact and logical reasoning.

Then why don't you start using some facts and logic?

Haha, amazing

Tom stop guessing. The point is that EFC needs:

A 60,000 minimum stadium
A least half the capacity shifted by rapid-transit rail from a station adjacent stadium.
A stadium full of revenue generating facilities: bars, cafes, clubs, restaurants, etc.
Sliding roof - ideally
Good road links
Park & ride on Merseyrail
Minimum nuisance to local residents

Then why don't you start using some facts and logic?

Tom, your footy fan-ness gets the better of you. All common sense goes out the window.

Ok John, I'll bite seeing as I'm waiting in for a delivery haha....

A 60,000 minimum stadium

Kirkby is only 50k, and would need a new planning application for expansion which almost certainly would not have been granted once knowsely had got their shops. They even built in a clause last minute to cap the capacity to just 40k such was the lack of confidence in the transport plan.

half the capacity shifted by rapid-transit rail from a station adjacent stadium.

Good rapid transit capacity is essential but Kirkby station is nowhere near adjacent, and the highest projections for train useage where well below 50%, and nearer 10-20%. Out of town stadia, like out of town retail is generally heavily car reliant, there was next to nothing in the transport strategy that was going to address except the fundamantally flawed park and ride/walk scheme. The adjacent bus terminus was shown to be unviable as was the massive shortfall in bus availability in the region. You cannot shift a whole city-region's transport focal point for a fortnightly event venue. It cannot be achieved.

A stadium full of revenue generating facilities: bars, cafes, clubs, restaurants, etc.

Out of town stadia don't have this level of facilities, because people will not travel out to Kirkby on a daily basis for them. Have you been to the reebok? There are next to no facilities because it cannot support them. Inner city stadia like St James' park has bars that are open 7 days a week and are massively popular, this simply is not viable out in the sticks.
Sliding roof - ideally

Kirkby hasn't got this and never will without massive retrofit.

Good road links

The number of traffic lanes feeding Kirkby from Liverpool is minimal and designed for a small local population. These wil be choked before and certainly after the match, meanwhile GP has one of the fastest dispersion rates of any premier league stadium..... again, this was all pointed out at the inquiry and was not contested.

Minimum nuisance to local residents
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The kirkby proposals was to involve CPO's on scores of modern private properties, an old people's home, and a whole school. These people have never lived near a stadium, and probably never thought they would. No-one in Walton was there before Everton. On the otherhand the Loop site was totally unoccupied with minimal residential areas around it, similarly the vauxhall/central docks sites and Everton Park.

I can see the logic in moving the GP pitch up towards the street end or even shortening it so that the main stand does not over hang it at its length at the park end. This would enable a bigger Holt end type park end stand of 2 or even 3 tiers (with boxes) - so deep that corporate facilities could be built at their rear. There you go - another 10 thou + at the drop of a hat. A new cantilever roof on the Goodison Road stands to remove the obstructed views and bob's your uncle.

All the talk about not affording it or it not being viable was a smokescreen to make us believe there was only 1 option.

The roads and pavements up to GP have facilitated crowds in the 70 thou mark in the past - even 40s to 50s as recently as a few decades ago so no problem there. Rail and bus links - not a problem, especially if Cherry Lane was opened.

The transport can improved by a cheap 6 platform station
Good rapid transit capacity is essential, Kirkby station adjacent via a nice big Kirkby Way which could be a Wembley Way.
Out of town stadia, like out of town retail is generally heavily car reliant becaude they do not build proer rapid-transit staions.
revamp the transport plan and the whole complex is viable.
The city's transport focal point for a fortnightly event venue is not a big issue.
Out of town stadia don't have this level of facilities, because they are built.
Inner city stadia like St James' Park is a joke and it cannot be extended.
Kirkby is not out in the sticks.
Kirkby can have excellent rail transport and it is cheap enough to do. It will not cost £450 million
Kirkby is fed by two motorways and the East Lancs Road.



The Loop site is unoccupied with minimal residential areas around it.
Rapid-transit rail cannot be easily run in - OK a branch off the Northern Line over the tunel approaches can, and run onwards further into the north end serving the greater community
The site is too small and needs building over the tunnel approaches
Overall an expensive site when better sites adjacent to essential rapid-transit rail line are available.

I can see the logic in moving the GP pitch up towards the street end

GP was written off 12 years ago. How many times must it be stated that the old crock cannot generate enough revenue at the site to compete with the top 3 or 4. Staying there will ensure a 2nd tier club status.

It is not worth talking about, expect making flats from the Bullens and St end stands, like at Highbury.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Clubs/Club%20Home/2009/2/26/1235684102497/Highbury-Square-001.jpg

''GP was written off 12 years ago.''

No it wasn't and that's why we're still playing there and will continue to do so if nothing else comes up.



''How many times must it be stated that the old crock cannot generate enough revenue''

That is true in its current state but we're not talking about its current state if it's renovated.


Kirkby's off - a dead duck - smaller retail can go ahead without Everton - Everton not needed now, Tesco have got their way in eventually, having failed on a stand alone plan earlier.

Now - we must move on and the cheapest method of expanding (Without the Tesco ackers) must be on an existing site where we already own the land and all 4 sides don't have to be updated - Comprende?

GP was written off as a future venue that is why the club looked at Kirkby Golf Course, KD and Kirkby.
If GP is renovatedit cannot generate enough revenue to compete with the top 4 - it is that simple. Read back on the thread.
Kirkby is not off - no official statement from Ian Ross so still on.
Once again staying at GP will be the final nail in the club's decline.

The only reason they looked anywhere because they were, or thought they were getting it for free. Free land off KMBC and free building off their mates Tesco/Leahy.

Extra bums on seats and extra revenue is indeed a priority. So if that can be achieved in the most inexpensive way by renovating GP, then so be it and don't say it can't be as 50 thou seats at GP is achievable and that's all the capacity at Kirkby was ever going to be - max.

Putting extra rail lines, platforms or bus routes won't increase the level of our players or trophy capabilities so that is not a priority.

As the council knows we've managed at GP in the past with 50 - 70 thou, then they know the infrastructure and all compass points access is not a problem.

The transport can improved by a cheap 6 platform station

We've already had this conversation John.... no-one including Merseytravel and Tesco's numerous transport experts after 3 years of planning envisage any viable expansion of Kirkby station, let alone a 6 platform transformation. There isn't sufficient space for a start, and would mean the loss of the carpark in the format you mentioned. Just mentioning it on a forum doesn't mean it's possible. Put it forward and see the reaction you get!

Good rapid transit capacity is essential, Kirkby station adjacent via a nice big Kirkby Way which could be a Wembley Way.

almost a mile away is not adjacent.

Out of town stadia, like out of town retail is generally heavily car reliant becaude they do not build proer rapid-transit staions.

They don't because they are not viable, they are even less viable when it's a fortnightly event venue, and the town it feeds is only 40k population.

revamp the transport plan and the whole complex is viable.

You would need to remodel the whole city, not a little revamp. 3 yrs of studies and models have been generated at enormous cost, none have made it work, yet you think you can with a few sentences on a forum.

Inner city stadia like St James' Park is a joke and it cannot be extended.

Actually, they have planning permission to extend the Gallowgate by 6k+. There is even a scheme to cantilever over the georgian terrace too for further expansion......51k capacity now, all within a single tier format, not bad for a stadium that only had just over 10,000 seats pre-taylor report.


Kirkby is not out in the sticks.

Kirkby is a satelite overflow estate. It is not a metropolis, and is surrounded by countryside. At 8-9 miles from Liverpool city centre, it would easily be the most displaced footy stadium in the UK.

Kirkby can have excellent rail transport and it is cheap enough to do. It will not cost £450 million

There isn't money available for it.... why haven't mega rich Tesco offered to do it? No-one can justify that level of outlay for a footy stadium.


Kirkby is fed by two motorways and the East Lancs Road.
[/list]

The motorway Myth died long ago. The east lancs has had to be remodelled several times as it is already at capacity for large chunks of the day. The M57 skirts around the city with only a couple of junctions feeding it, and the M58 serves West Lancs and not Liverpool. There was no substantial junction modifications other than the minimum necessary for retail drip feeding.... all fully exposed and criticised at the Public Inquiry..... these are some of the reasons it failed John yet you're still trying to use them as arguments after the fact.

The Loop site is unoccupied with minimal residential areas around it.
Rapid-transit rail cannot be easily run in - OK a branch off the Northern Line over the tunel approaches can, and run onwards further into the north end serving the greater community

This is nonsense. The city centre's numerous stations are all closer than the proposed Kirkby stadium/station. They feed all parts of the merseyside network DIRECTLY. The public transport capacity for the city centre is over 30 times that of Kirkby..... again, this is a logistical constant that will never change for a stadium.


The site is too small and needs building over the tunnel approaches

Building access over an existing cutting is readily achieveable. Footbridges are cheap and there can already be direct access from the whole Scotland Rd side which is at grade. The site could accomodate the Millenium stadium according to world leading stadium designers HOK who did a feasibility study.


Overall an expensive site when better sites adjacent to essential rapid-transit rail line are available.

It was projected to only cost the club £65m given the scope for much higher-value enabling at the more central and prestigious site, just as KD could have released upto 90% of the stadium costs on a relatively small plot. The site is also strategically valued in that such a development helps join the city centre development zones to Project Jennifer.... hence the council's interest at the time. There are other similar sites nearby as you say.

It is as far from the proposed site to Kirkby Station as it is from the Tunnel Loop site to Lime St Station, Queen Sq and Moorfields which you deemed to be too distant as to be viable. Care to reconsider your rationale?

BTW your download of the DF collection of season tickets from Wikipedia or some such site to demonstrate your EFC credentials is absolutely priceless. :lol:

Extra bums on seats and extra revenue is indeed a priority. So if that can be achieved in the most inexpensive way by renovating GP, then so be it and don't say it can't be as 50 thou seats at GP is achievable.


I did read the thread. Just under 40,000 now. and income a pittance to Arsenal. Make that 50,000 and still a pittance. Arsenal have 60,000 and make oodles on concessions which a tarted-up GP at 50,000 would not

It is that simple. They have to move.


Putting extra rail lines, platforms or bus routes won't increase the level of our players or trophy capabilities so that is not a priority.


You really do not understand this. You need high revenues to get the players. A 6 platform station will get the fans in, come rain, shine or deep frost.

BTW your download of the DF collection of season tickets from Wikipedia or some such site to demonstrate your EFC credentials is absolutely priceless. :lol:

Thank you.

If GP is renovatedit cannot generate enough revenue to compete with the top 4 - it is that simple. Read back on the thread.

John, there you go again spouting your rhetoric as if it is official. Not even the club have said this. Increased capacity and corporate facilities at GP especially with the superior transport and more central location will be far more likely to be filled than at the peripheral Kirkby. Kirkby at best can generate just £6m operating profits per year.... hardly top 4.

Kirkby is not off - no official statement from Ian Ross so still on.

Would you put your house on it? Can't see there's any need for Ross to say anything after his CEO's and chairman's statements. Even Kilfoyle is now asking about redevelopment and footy village options for Walton and Anfield in the commons only this week as he's heard there are moves afoot..... you're well behind developments. Heard anymore from "Gordon and Mandy"? Few lazy journos got there fingers burned there......... The same crowd who pronounced just a few days before the public Inquiry decision that it was a goer, only to find that it failed dismally on all planning counts!

In a few years when the TV money has gone and football is back to how it used to be, with less commercial influence and just proper fans, Everton will be very glad to be at Goodison surrounded by supporters.

I don't believe the money in football is sustainable. It would be a folly to build corporate entertainment or massive stadia. Coming years will likely see several clubs imploding and the 'big 4' falling back in the face of debt and withdrawn foreign investment.

Teams like Everton (or Aston Villa who I support) will have their day again as long as they stay resolute and don't get blinded by recent unsustainable trends.

^^^^ You're only on this thread because you know you'll get a response from people. You've said yourself your not really interested in football,so why antagoniize people by posting fabrication,conjecture and heresay as fact? simply because that's your raison d'etre.

John is here to wind people up. He knows he's clutching at straws and the club is going to stay at Goodison Park for a few more years yet until a site is found elsewhere in the city. By John's own "fat lady sings" definition neither a redeveloped GP, Clarence Dock or Scotty Road are out of the equation.


Now it's time to reveal to those who might not have got onto it, the real reason for John's trolling here.

John is a (lapsed) Liverpudlian.

He went into great depth a while ago about how he used to idolise Bill Liddel, who as we all know was a one club man (Liverpool FC) and one of the red's greatest ever players. A few other comments he made around the time made me realise imediately what his game is.

His bitter comments about Alex Ferguson and his desperation for the club to move out of the city ASAP just add more credence to the fact.

The point is that EFC needs:

A 60,000 minimum stadium
A least half the capacity shifted by rapid-transit rail from a station adjacent stadium.
A stadium full of revenue generating facilities: bars, cafes, clubs, restaurants, etc.
Sliding roof - ideally
Good road links
Park & ride on Merseyrail
Minimum nuisance to local residents


All of which totally discounts Kirkby from the running then.

GP was written off 12 years ago. How many times must it be stated that the old crock cannot generate enough revenue at the site to compete with the top 3 or 4. Staying there will ensure a 2nd tier club status.

We've had regular European football at Goodison Park for some years now. I know because I am a season ticket holder and I go to every cup game as well. There is NOTHING like the atmosphere of Goodison Park (or I dare say Anfield) on a floodlit, midweek evening game.

We've had regular top 6 placing, Uefa Cup football and one year a top 4 finish and the Champions League place.

We're doing very well at Goodison and have been for years. Decent players under good management, coupled with stability are what produces success on the football pitch, the stadium is largely irrelevant.


expect making flats from the Bullens and St end stands, like at Highbury.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Clubs/Club%20Home/2009/2/26/1235684102497/Highbury-Square-001.jpg

Don't talk rubbish!!!

Arsenal created apartments out of Highbury because they were able to retain entire art-deco fascades and features such as marble stairwells and corridors. Nevertheless the vast majority of the stadium was completely surplus to requirements and ripped out. They only kept this bit....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/images/2006/03/13/highbury1_440x330.jpg


Now....would you care to tell me what part of the Bullens Road stand can be incorporated into a modern build block of luxury apartments!? :lol:

John have you ever seen the back of the Bullens? It is painted corrorgated metal screwed onto a basic shell.

Absolutely laughable! You are BEYOND hilarious :lol:


http://www.petersheils.com/USERIMAGES/backbullens.jpg

''How many times must it be stated that the old crock cannot generate enough revenue''

That is true in its current state but we're not talking about its current state if it's renovated.

John has no clue whatsoever of the kind of funding and players required to get into (and more importantly, STAY) in the Champions League year on year.

All of the english CL clubs are indebted up to their eyeballs to maintain the pace. Liverpool (purely for illustration) are paying around 20 million per key first XI player (£18 mill for Mascherano, £26 mill for Torres, £20 mill for Aquilani).

To buy Champions League players and invest the way the top 4 have is impossible under the current board because they are penniless. That's not their fault, it's just the way it is. WE'RE SKINT!

John does not seem to understand that.

Moving to Kirkby (on Tesco/EFC's own figures) would have brought £6 million per annum into the clubs coffers. Yakubu alone cost us £11 million. Fellani £15 million.

John's idea that penniless EFC under Kenwright spend 150 million (debt) building a crap stadium, that by his own criteria is 10,000 seats too small, and then that enables us to challenge for the Champions League with the likes of United, Chelsea and now, the likes of Manchester City....is laughable.

Welcome back. :cheers:

Now don't start your Wirral separatist shite or I'll be on to the mods to get you banned. :lol:

Welcome back. :cheers:

Now don't start your Wirral separatist shite or I'll be on to the mods to get you banned. :lol:

:lol: :cheers:

In a few years when the TV money has gone and football is back to how it used to be, with less commercial influence and just proper fans, Everton will be very glad to be at Goodison surrounded by supporters.

I don't believe the money in football is sustainable. It would be a folly to build corporate entertainment or massive stadia. Coming years will likely see several clubs imploding and the 'big 4' falling back in the face of debt and withdrawn foreign investment.



That was 100% opinion. Wild opinion, as if the world is going to revert back to 1958. Not worth taking notice of.
AV and Spurs have rebuilt all 4 sides of the grounds in 20 odd years.
AV are planning to to replace a newish structure. Pouring good money after bad.
Spurs who have rebuilt all 4 sides have realised it was folly and are planning to move.
Liverpool who have rebuilt three sides are moving with a new stadium site cleared.

Of the top 8 clubs:

Man U - Rebuilt to 76,000 setting the world model of top quality concessions in the stadium. Very high revenue income. Plans to make it over 90,000. They were lucky the surrounding industrial estate was demolished enabling easy expansion and the close by docks converted to upmarket Salford Quays. Rail station behind a stand, which could be better used.
Arsenal - Moved stadium. They have 7 rail stations within 15 minutes walk. High revenue income
Chelsea - Rebuilt all 4 sides with attached Chelsea Village gaining revenue 365. They charge top rates being in Central London. Talk of moving as stadium not big enough. When chairman's Sugar Daddy money runs out they may be in trouble, as stadium may not generate enough income.
Liverpool - Expensively rebuilt 3 sides of the ground in a short space of time. Poor revenue income. They realised it was an expensive mistake and have PP for new stadium with site cleared.
Spurs - Expensively Rebuilt all 4 sides in a short period, to only a small capacity. Ground too small and does not generate enough income. Considering moving to a new larger stadium with plans drawn up.
Aston Villa - Expensively rebuilt all 4 sides and still have a small capacity. Considering rebuilding one newish stand. Criticised as ground too small not generating enough revenue to compete with top 4.
Man City - Moved to brand new stadium with increased revenues.
Everton - Ground old and needs all 4 sides rebuilt. Small capacity and poor revenue generation in a landlocked sites in dowdy district. Were first big club to consider relocating in 1997. Protracted relocation having nailed down three sites. Two failed. PP given for a new stadium on third site, still ongoing to finalise permission.


So:

One rebuilt to 76,000 on a good site
Two moved stadium
One has PP permission for new stadium with site cleared
One is going through PP for a new stadium
One is planning a new stadium, PP not applied for yet.
One is staying put - and being criticised for doing so.
One is staying for now, but considering a move.


TART-UPs do not work. EFC have to move.

Now don't start your Wirral separatist shite or I'll be on to the mods to get you banned. :lol:

They should put up the tunnel tolls to pay for a 6 platform Kirkby Merseyrail station. Those in the Wirral benefit greatly by this.

We've already had this conversation John....


No-one costed making Kirkby station into 6 platforms. Lots of space if shallow cutting backfilled and Kirkby Way remodel as like Wembley Way.
Station is just over 1/2 mile away.
Station will promote expansion of Kirkby.
Top 7 club's apart from one all are considering relocation or have relocated or lucky to have ease of expansion..
Kirkby was a satellite overflow estate, however now an integral part of Liverpool's conurbation. Built by Liverpool Corporation.
The motorway is not a myth - it is there with the M58 not far. Rapid-transit-rail will alleviate the roads
The Loop site is NOT near the city centre.
The Loop site can just about hold a stadium with little room around. Building on the approach road cutting is the only real option.
Footbridges over the cutting is not desirable with football fans able to throw things at cars.
The Loop is good if rapid-transit rail was run in, with rail extensions into the North End meaning no trams are needed to be run in, saving costs there.
Using light-rail Docklands like cars, cheap bridges can be built and parts made elevated serving project Jennifer, and beyond. Original 1970s plan was to bore a tunnel to Everton Brow, now maybe some catchup.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/DLR-WestIndiaDocks-1.jpg/250px-DLR-WestIndiaDocks-1.jpg

John can I just point something out to you, you might not have realised....

Of the top 7 clubs

Man U -

Owned by billionaires. Previous to that a billion pound listed company and richest club in the world. Foundations built on staying at Old Trafford and retaining the services of Alex Ferguson (the man who pushed hardest for the upgrades). In other words - stability.

Arsenal -

2 billionaires on the board.

Chelsea -

Abramovich. Also....still in their 40k stadium.

Liverpool -

Owned by two of the richest familes in American sports. Huge worldwide fanbase. Huge merchandising advantage over Everton and increased money from Europe and TV.

Spurs -

Moving to a stadium literally next door, within the same area. Effectively what many are calling for if EFC get the additional footprint from the council at Goodison.

Aston Villa -

Owned by a billionaire who sees value in the heritage of the club and has spent millions on preserving the history and culture of the stands and surrounding areas. He spent half a million doing up a large pub/supporters club nearby and has spent a fortune on the Holte end. Also....challenging for a top 4 place.


Finally....


Everton -

Owned by a man who's net worth is £30 million.

Do you understand now?

It is irrelevant if we go to Kirkby or not, we still won't have the investment to compete until the board goes. If you are claiming that £6million per annum additional profit can compete with the yanks, sheiks and russian oligarchs then you are having a laugh. The figures (Everton's own figures) are pitiful and NOTHING compared to the likes of city who can now buy £30-£40 million players with ease. The money from a new stadium in Kirkby would be peanuts in comparrison.

We need buying out.


Ground old and needs all 4 sides rebuilt.

Nobody is arguing that a new build stadium is probably the best solution. The issue is that we as a city (I exclude those who live in Milton Keynes) and we who follow Everton have a much bigger ambition for the club than can ever be provided at Kirkby.

You yourself have issued a list of criteria that totally discount kirkby based on transport, capacity and other issues.

Our ambition is to have one of the finest grounds in world football again within a city in rennaisance....and until that is possible, to have some money spent on doing up Goodison which has been criminally left to rot by our penniless board.

[list]
No-one costed making Kirkby station into 6 platforms. Lots of space if shallow cutting backfilled and Kirkby Way remodel as like Wembley Way.

Who pays for it? Everton and Tesco won't and Merseytravel have catagorically stated they won't now or in the future at the enquiry.


Station is just over 1/2 mile away.

Agreed the station at Kirkby is a perfectly fine walking distsnce from the town centre. The issue is crush loading of thousands of fans on to the limited services out of there. It will take 2 hours for me to get home from a Home game. Getting there will feel like going to an away. Is that what you want for us John (with your concern for saftey!) being crushed?

Station will promote expansion of Kirkby.

The people of Kirkby choose to live in a suburb away from town. they don't want 55,000 fans descending on them or for huge increase in their town. They want good services and they want a decent range of shops in their town centre. In any case why would you want the expansion of Kirkby!? I thought you were all for people living down by the water!?

Top 7 club's apart from one all are considering relocation or have relocated or lucky to have ease of expansion.

Theres been a large number of highly succesfull redevelopments and upgrades. St James Park, Croke Park, Twickenham, Old Trafford, Celtic Park, Ibrox (direct comparrisons with EFC due to the Archibald Leitch).

Kirkby was a satellite overflow estate, however now an integral part of Liverpool's conurbation. Built by Liverpool Corporation.

The focus from LCC, NWDA, Liverpool Vision and all strategic development agencies is city centre based. Kirkby is out in the sticks for most people in the region.

The motorway is not a myth - it is there with the M58 not far.

Fair comment. However there won't be the carparking at Kirkby to deal with the number of cars. We are supposed, in this day and age, to promote leaving the car at home. Impossible at out of town retail parks as you fine well know!

Rapid-transit-rail will alleviate the roads

The club themselves at last years AGM admitted publicly that the transport situation was woefull. Theres no plans for an upgrade of the station John no matter how many times you say it can be done. That's your opinion, the fact remains it's not happening. Crush loading of fans on trains is the plan for Kirkby.

The Loop site is NOT near the city centre.

Yes it is. It's a 5 min walk from Dale Street, Lime Street , Leeds Street (to waterfront). Fans can spill out in multiple routes to get home.

The Loop site can just about hold a stadium with little room around.

That is your opinion. Bestway, the council and HOK design say that a stadium the size of the Millenium Stadium in Wales can be built there.

Footbridges over the cutting is not desirable with football fans able to throw things at cars.

Shocking opinion of fans and showing your true anti-working class/football fan vendetta.

The Loop is good if rapid-transit rail was run in, with rail extensions into the North End meaning no trams are needed to be run in, saving costs there.

Theres no need to extend rail to Scotty Road as Lime Street ad the rest of the city centre is 5-10 min walk.

No-one costed making Kirkby station into 6 platforms. Lots of space if shallow cutting backfilled and Kirkby Way remodel as like Wembley

The inadequacy of Kirkby station was flagged up over 3 yrs ago. Adding a platform, extending platforms for tandem parking, and twin track were all fully costed and found prohibitive. No-one, not Tesco, not Knowsley, not Merseytravel and certainly not Everton were prepared to meet even these costs, and the final solution was holding pens for Queue management.... end of.

Station is just over 1/2 mile away.

just over 1 mile according to google map.

Top 7 club's apart from one all are considering relocation or have relocated or lucky to have ease of expansion..

Don't know what premier league you're looking at, but only one has moved (400m), and the other one may still redevelop and will only be moving 100m if the do move.

The motorway is not a myth - it is there with the M58 not far.

The M58 doesn't serve the main fanbase at all, and the M57 skirts around the city with only a couple of access points for the main conurbation. The Myth is that motorways mean instant accessibility. Bolton have one next door and have the slowest dispersal rate of all premier league grounds. Unless there is multiple 3-lane turn offs it will only ever be comparable to single or 2 lane access. GP has dozens of roads serving from all directions.


The Loop site is NOT near the city centre.

My family lived on what is now the loop, they were known as townies. Got family living around there now, town is their local.

Footbridges over the cutting is not desirable with football fans able to throw things at cars.

Apart from one broad access point there is only one small road bridge serving the emirates.... no-one bricks the trains as far as I know.

The Loop is good if rapid-transit rail was run in, with rail extensions into the North End meaning no trams are needed to be run in, saving costs there.

just 5-10 mins walk away is a 200-250,000+ passenger/hr network, no where is comparable in the whole city region. Kirkby is approx 5k per hr including crush loading to give you an idea of the disparity.

Nothing much to add from last post. The book has not been closed as Everton are receptive to solutions to Kirkby. Until it is announced that the whole thing is off, with politicians involvement out, it is still on, as Everton are listening. No one has come up with any sort of solution yet, or at least announced one or maybe two. As said, transport is problem. If the government want Everton involement for the World Cup the transport uprating would be paid for by them as they are doing for the Olympics. The Olympics have set a precedence and not assisting elsewhere for sporting events will smell of London bias. All rumour, that they want the government to give guarantees to uprate the transport maybe in stages for the World Cup, and that includes an uprated rail station.

The inadequacy of Kirkby station was flagged up over 3 yrs ago. Adding a platform, extending platforms for tandem parking, and twin track were all fully costed


Big government is involved now.


Don't know what premier league you're looking at, but only one has moved (400m), and the other one may still redevelop and will only be moving 100m if the do move.


Read the post Tom. It gives the low-down on what the top 7 club's are doing - and all points to new stadia.
Take top 8, Man City now, and there is another who have moved.
The only club that is firmly staying is Aston Villa and many question the wisdom of spending more on the ground - a lot for little gain, if any.
Kirkby is squared around by the M57, M58 and East Lancs Rd. Access is easy by road.
The Loop is half way up Scotland Rd, not next to the city centre.
Canal boats need to sail in convoy and have British Transport police escort them through Liverpool,it is that bad in the north end.
The Loop is not 5-10 mins walk away from Lime St. I do know Liverpool.
Kirkby is approx 5k per hr including crush loading, but can be substantially improved. I read the trip on the KEIOC site.They ignored trains going to Wigan and Mcr. How convenient. It is best to enhance the existing network rather than bring onto curves and the likes. A network that serves the people

John can I just point something out to you, you might not have realised....


Tom, that was total off-topic to the point of moving to new stadia.


Nobody is arguing that a new build stadium is probably the best solution. The issue is that we as a city (I exclude those who live in Milton Keynes) and we who follow Everton have a much bigger ambition for the club than can ever be provided at Kirkby.

You yourself have issued a list of criteria that totally discount kirkby based on transport, capacity and other issues.

Our ambition is to have one of the finest grounds in world football again within a city in rennaisance.


I can't argue with that as it is really good. Kirkby is not the best that can be attained. Kirkby as a place is fine, which many castigate as a place. Uprate the station and all is fine. Have the finest ground again? All for it. Then Tom says this.......yes he does......


...and until that is possible, to have some money spent on doing up Goodison which has been criminally left to rot by our penniless board.

Tart up GP? What a let down!!! The safety man is going to close off the upper deck on two stands because they are wood. How the club has got away with it for so long I do not know. They have to get out soon. It has been 12 years now. EFC were the first big club to announce a stadium move. All the others followed the lead.

Big government is involved now.


Kirkby is squared around by the M57, M58 and East Lancs Rd. Access is easy by road.
The Loop is half way up Scotland Rd, not next to the city centre.
Liverpool has many Scallies who bricks cars and trains. Canal boats need to sail in convoy and have British Transport police escort them through Liverpool,it is that bad in the north end.
The Loop is not 5-10 mins walk away from Lime St. I do know Liverpool.
Kirkby is approx 5k per hr including crush loading, but can be substantially improved. I read the trip on the KEIOC site.They ignored trains going to Wigan and Mcr. How convenient. It is best to enhance the existing network rather than bring onto curves and the likes. A network that serves the people
[/list]

There is little to no parking so you can have as many motorways as you like......

The loop site is nearer Lime St than DK is to Kirkby station and as close to Queen Square and Moorfields.

Kirkby is a haven of tranquility and has no scallies, so I'm led to believe. :nuts:

The Wigan and Mcr line will be as useful as a chocolate teapot. A third of EFC's season tickets come from Wirral and they have a decent support in N Wales. The overwhelming majority are from Liverpool, Sefton, Knowsley. All in the opposite direction.

But then you know all the above and are being deliberately argumentative and obtuse. :bash:

It is your (and that of you 7 or 8 previous incarnations and a couple of your present) modus operandi.

Big government is involved now.

We had all this nonsense at the time of the vote, and you kept saying how Labour would never call this in and how certain labour council's wouldn't oppose it as Knowsley was Labour etc. At the time you kept using minister's first names as if you knew them personally and had an inside line..... all came to nothing. There is no proof that "Big Government" (whatever that means has said anything at all, the news articles have fizzled out to nothing...... however Kilfoyle addressed the commons only 3 days ago asking about redevelopment options and support for Everton and LFC after being tipped off about major talks to that effect.


[list]
Read the post Tom. It gives the low-down on what the top 7 club's are doing - and all points to new stadia.

I simply looked at the league table yesterday morning..... and only one of the top 7 had moved. Look at the entire league and you will see that the vast majority have redeveloped, only when the current site is unexpandable, and/or a more central location is identified do clubs relocate.

Take top 8, Man City now, and there is another who have moved.

Yes, they got a freeby, and they moved closer to town..... the comparison?

The only club that is firmly staying is Aston Villa and many question the wisdom of spending more on the ground - a lot for little gain, if any.

Who questions it? Do you really think they would leave their central site to move out as far as Wolverhampton or Wallsall, because that is practically what Kirkby is to Liverpool? Simon Inglis, the world renowned stadium expert (and Aston Villa Fan) said that if the same was proposed for his club he would be "extremely worried"..... so I ask again.... who questions it?

Kirkby is squared around by the M57, M58 and East Lancs Rd. Access is easy by road.

I'm sorry but the public inquiry found that it wasn't to the extent that Knowsley slapped on a clause that if over 50% of the fans weren't accomodated by public transport they would cap the capacity to 40k. At which point the transport strategy people gave up! Meanwhile GP has literally dozens of traffic lanes serving it and doesn't need a transport stragey or park and ride to produce some of the best dispersal rates in the league..... BTW, you mightn't have noticed that the east Lancs passes right past the park end and can be used in both directions at the more central site. The vast majority of blues will be travelling in the same direction for Kirkby..... in the US they used multiple dedicated 5 lane freeways for their out of town stadia. There was nothing comparable planned for Kirkby.

The Loop is half way up Scotland Rd, not next to the city centre.

It is at the beginning of Scotty, just over 1/2 mile to Lime street, 0.6 mile to Moorefields, 0.4 miles to proposed new vauxhall station.


Canal boats need to sail in convoy and have British Transport police escort them through Liverpool,it is that bad in the north end.

I think you will find that most footy stadia are well policed, there is already a bridge over the loop with no history of people throwing stuff onto cars below regardless of your assertion about the North end.

The Loop is not 5-10 mins walk away from Lime St. I do know Liverpool.

You're right, I could walk it on my hands in 10 mins. There are also more buses travelling along lime street in an hr than there probably are in a day to Kirkby. Also, a small number of dedicated buses (as already used for soccerbus) could provide a continuous shuttle service to all the major high capacity city-centre hubs as the distance is so small. This cannot ever be achieved at Kirkby.


Kirkby is approx 5k per hr including crush loading, but can be substantially improved.

How come all the experts didn't mention it? How come Tesco's and Sir Philip Green's wealth couldn't make it happen?


I read the trip on the KEIOC site.They ignored trains going to Wigan and Mcr. How convenient.

What is the relevance of a few trains to Wigan? Seriously, the vast majority of Everton season Tkt holders come from the other direction, and easily the biggest concentration of Evertonians is in the other direction, so what is the relevance of a tiny service to nowhere of significance to EFC. Within 1/2 mile of the loop and 2 miles of GP are all the local and national hubs giving direct services........ again, Kirkby can never have this or even 1/10th of this!!

There is little to no parking so you can have as many motorways as you like......

Exactly.

The loop site is nearer Lime St than DK is to Kirkby station and as close to Queen Square and Moorfields.

John claims he knows Liverpool and that this site is "halfway up Scotty Road". :lol:

The Wigan and Mcr line will be as useful as a chocolate teapot. A third of EFC's season tickets come from Wirral and they have a decent support in N Wales. The overwhelming majority are from Liverpool, Sefton, Knowsley. All in the opposite direction.

Exactly. Our fans are in Liverpool and Wirral, not Wigan-Manc. John knows absolutely NOTHING about Everton FC.

As I said above. Lapsed kopite who talks embarassing shite and trys to be a wind up. I look forward to the first announcement that money will be spent on Goodison to do it up, or that they're in talks about a new site. Until the first home game is played John will still be claiming we're going to Kirkby! :lol: :nuts:

He's still claiming Kings Dock was a massive failure despite the awards and income generated for the city. I've never come across someone more entrenched in his views, regardless of being prooved wrong.

The Wigan and Mcr line will be as useful as a chocolate teapot.


Everton do not have fans that way?

< I will have to snip the rest >

We don't have a large enough number of fans out that way for the Wigan line to make any difference whastover.

You've revealed how little you know about the makeup of the fanbase of the club. Surveys have been done by the Premier League and the club themselves. A third of the fanbase is from the Wirral. The majority of the fans live within 10 miles of Goodison...hence us having one of the biggest "walk up" to the match fanbases in Europe.

The idea that theres a catchment area of a large number of blues in the Wigan-Manc area is laughable.

We had all this nonsense at the time of the vote, and you kept saying how Labour would never call this in and how certain labour council's wouldn't oppose it as Knowsley was Labour etc. At the time you kept using minister's first names as if you knew them personally and had an inside line..


I did? New to me. I was never keen on Kirkby, I am still not. It can work if the stadium is expandable and the rail station is uprated. It appears others are keen on the place.


Who questions it? Do you really think they would leave their central site to move out as far as Wolverhampton or Wallsall, because that is practically what Kirkby is to Liverpool? Simon Inglis, the world renowned stadium expert (and Aston Villa Fan) said that if the same was proposed for his club he would be "extremely worried"..... so I ask again.... who questions it?


That is Inglis' view. AV do not need to move out of Birmingham.


Meanwhile GP has literally dozens of traffic lanes serving it and doesn't need a transport stragey or park and ride to produce some of the best dispersal rates in the league.


Walton Lane and County Rd? You jest of course. The ground hold about 39,000. Put 50-60,00 around there and total gridlock. Quick dispersal? Those jams I sit in must be full of cardboard cutout cars then.

And the city should not be in the business of making people's lives a misery, and ensure these sort of places are in suitable locations - such as, Long Lane with rapid-transit access.

Rapid-transit access must a be a precursor before any PP. But Liverpool doesn't really know these sort things.

The Loop Site is just plain bad as it is. Look at Google Earth. It is looped 100% by basically a motorway. There is only one approach road over a bridge. You may shoehorn a stadium in the loop, just, but access is horrendous. What would happen in a panic situation with one road in and out? The stadium would need to be over the approach roads. That would be expensive.

The there are no adjacent rapid-rail stations. Byrom St may be the closest if the Waterloo tunnel is recommissioned. But that shifts nothing significant as it would just a be a small two platform station.

A branch from the Waterloo tunnel could be run up Scotland Rd in cut & cover, but the disruption would be too much. Or a bored tunnel, and it would be a dead end tunnel. The rapid-transit rail station would need to be under the stadium in that loop.

Lime St is mainline and small Wirral Line station.


What is the relevance of a few trains to Wigan?


Along the line many 1000s of Evertonians live. Then if it is expended to Skem, even more.

Can I just liken this to something?
A few years back Portsmouth FC proposed a new Stadium out in Fareham, large suburb (90,000), great transport links, right near a motorway. It was REJECTED. Why? Because it was way out in suburbia. 8-10 miles from the clubs traditional home in Fratton, on the edge of the city centre. Simply, like Kirkby, it was too far away from the City Centre and it's Fanbase. Clubs should stay within the cities they represent, for example, you wouldn't move Aston Villa to Dudley on the other side of Birmingham now would you?

Can I just liken this to something?
A few years back Portsmouth FC proposed a new Stadium out in Fareham, large suburb (90,000), great transport links, right near a motorway. It was REJECTED.

Everton are a large club with a fanbase spread wide. Portsmouth is parochial club - like Tranmere.

Prof Tom Cannon:

Everton are estimated to have 500,000 supporters in the UK
250,000 worldwide.
Regular match goers (3 games or more a season) number between 75,000 and 100,000.
One of the youngest fanbases in the country
Large percentage of graduates.
Fanbase was one of the most geographically diverse in the UK.

Walton Lane and County Rd? You jest of course. The ground hold about 39,000. Put 50-60,00 around there and total gridlock. Quick dispersal? Those jams I sit in must be full of cardboard cutout cars then.

You don't get caught up in traffic jams on county road....you live in Milton Keynes. You have little recollection of how the city is set out FFS! Loop site is "halfway down Scotty Road"....Jesus wept!!!

And the city should not be in the business of making people's lives a misery, and ensure these sort of places are in suitable locations - such as, Long Lane with rapid-transit access.

People's lives aren't made a misery. The clubs been there over a hundred years.


The Loop Site is just plain bad as it is. Look at Google Earth. It is looped 100% by basically a motorway.

John the tunnel approach road is a problem that can be easily dealt with using covering techniques that aren't prohibitively expensive and in all likelyhood would be paid for by the NWDA or other grant enablers anyway.

You do make me laugh with this. On the one hand you claim Scotty Road has unsurmountable problems....on the other hand over the years on here you recomend entire housing estates in Speke and in North Liverpool be demolished to make room for a stadium. You recomended that a stadium be built over the strand and numerous warehouses and businesses.

You've argued for billions of pounds worth of public transport investment for re-opening tunnels and creating a huge underground rail and outer loop network, which people in the know on here have told you will cost well over a billion pounds.

An approach road needs to be covered. Big deal. It's been done elsewhere in the world with no problems (see Atletico's ground - built over a fucking 4 lane motorway).

The there are no adjacent rapid-rail stations. Byrom St may be the closest if the Waterloo tunnel is recommissioned. But that shifts nothing significant as it would just a be a small two platform station.

Purposely on the wind up now. You've been told by numerous people since Scotty Road was named as a potential site that the distance from the site to Lime Street is within easy walkable distance. I've walked this route a thousand times quite happily as my nan lived at the back of the Uni building. It's a ten minute walk at most. Public transport all over the place, numerous ways to filter out into the north, south and east/west of the city.

You're just ignoring inconvenient facts now. Scotty Road has excellent access.

....so here we go with the grasping at straws saftey fallback argument.

A branch from the Waterloo tunnel could be run up Scotland Rd in cut & cover, but the disruption would be too much. Or a bored tunnel, and it would be a dead end tunnel.

You want waterloo tunnel re-opened. The best chance of that happening is if a stadium is built at Clarence Dock.

Everton are a large club with a fanbase spread wide. Portsmouth is parochial club - like Tranmere.

Prof Tom Cannon:

Everton are estimated to have 500,000 supporters in the UK
250,000 worldwide.
Regular match goers (3 games or more a season) number between 75,000 and 100,000.
One of the youngest fanbases in the country
Large percentage of graduates.
Fanbase was one of the most geographically diverse in the UK.


Erm, Portsmouth has a larger fanbase then. Also, we too are a premiership team. If you want a Parochial Portsmouth club, try Havant and Waterlooville.

Also, the size of the team is irrelevant, as I was discussing the nuances of an out of town stadium.

Everton are a large club with a fanbase spread wide. Portsmouth is parochial club - like Tranmere.

Prof Tom Cannon:

Everton are estimated to have 500,000 supporters in the UK
250,000 worldwide.
Regular match goers (3 games or more a season) number between 75,000 and 100,000.
One of the youngest fanbases in the country
Large percentage of graduates.
Fanbase was one of the most geographically diverse in the UK.


I've seen many versions of these stats but don't recognise these at all. However, of that 500,000 uk supporters, given that there is 1.2 million people in Merseyside, I'd say it is reasonable to suppose that at least 400,000 of the 500k would be from Merseyside, with easily the greates concentration in Liverpool, and particularly North Liverpool. Also the season tkt lists indicate a very strong localised support..... These people make up the vast majority of our regular match-going support whereas Wigan probably doesn't fill one row.

According to the football reserach unit I also read that we have the longest serving fans in the league with an average of 27yrs continuous support. Good in one way but bad in another as it means we have an aging support, so not sure were your stats come from.

I'd say any geographical diversity is gleaned from the mass migration of scousers over the past 40 yrs, don't think it means they are more inclined to go to Kirkby 9 miles from a major national rail station.


That is Inglis' view. AV do not need to move out of Birmingham.

He is the expert, that's why I quoted him directly, but you still didn't reference who "Questioned" Aston Villa's decision to remodel Villa Park, you said there were many who did, and you provided no names!


Walton Lane and County Rd? You jest of course. The ground hold about 39,000. Put 50-60,00 around there and total gridlock. Quick dispersal? Those jams I sit in must be full of cardboard cutout cars then.

Of course I don't jest.... it exists, it is real, and it works without any transport strategy. Plus funnily, the stadium on the park has full planning permission for much greater numbers than you quote. There are several more major roads in and around Walton, all of which can be used in both directions, effectively doubling there capacity in comparison to Kirkby's 2 dual carriageways which will be used overwhelmingly in one direction only, and one of them is already at capacity for most of the day. So, as outlined at the Inquiry, if you find any delays at GP, you'd be in for a rude awakening at Kirkby. Personally, I never have a problem getting away from the ground and I live in South Liverpool almost as far as you can be from GP but still within the boundaries.

And the city should not be in the business of making people's lives a misery, and ensure these sort of places are in suitable locations - such as, Long Lane with rapid-transit access.

Walton has greater Merseyrail coverage than Long lane, and again being more central is useable in both directions effectively doubling capacity in comparison to a peripheral station.... That's just basic logistics John, that cannot be changed.

The Loop Site is just plain bad as it is. Look at Google Earth. It is looped 100% by basically a motorway. There is only one approach road over a bridge. You may shoehorn a stadium in the loop, just, but access is horrendous. What would happen in a panic situation with one road in and out? The stadium would need to be over the approach roads. That would be expensive.

It would be possible to access along the full Scotland Rd side if necessary as there is only a slip road on that side plus 2 or 3x20m wide bridges offering greater access than say the Emirates which is squashed in the apex of 2 intersecting railway lines, or the Millenium which hugs the river. Very few UK stadia have masses of open space around them, but provided there are sufficient routes it is not an issue. The other point is though a more central site will attract far greater finances as demonstrated with the Kings Dock stadium where 90% of the construction cost and some major infrastructure changes was readily covered by the associated developments in a more prestigious site. DK could barely muster £10m, and even that wasn't guaranteed.

The there are no adjacent rapid-rail stations. Byrom St may be the closest if the Waterloo tunnel is recommissioned. But that shifts nothing significant as it would just a be a small two platform station.

The city-centre can cope with upto 250k passenger movements per hr (well over 100k do this every rush hr), with major roads radiating in all directions too.

Lime St is mainline and small Wirral Line station.

Lime street offers services to east and South Liverpool stations and the Wirral Line, and of course the whole national rail network. Moorefields offers the the entire Northern Rail network and Wirral line. Norton Street national express coach station is nearer again.

At Kirkdale, the station has over 4 times the capacity of kirkby on scheduled services alone, and far greater platform space. Sandhills is even greater again. These require no investment to eclipse anything possible at Kirkby or Long lane

What is the relevance of a few trains to Wigan?

Along the line many 1000s of Evertonians live. Then if it is expended to Skem, even more

I'm sure there are few thousand blues there, but there are hundreds of thousands within the main conurbation and on the Wirral as evidenced by the season Ticket data. NO other club has moved so far the centre of its fanbase!

Can I just liken this to something?
A few years back Portsmouth FC proposed a new Stadium out in Fareham, large suburb (90,000), great transport links, right near a motorway. It was REJECTED. Why? Because it was way out in suburbia. 8-10 miles from the clubs traditional home in Fratton, on the edge of the city centre. Simply, like Kirkby, it was too far away from the City Centre and it's Fanbase. Clubs should stay within the cities they represent, for example, you wouldn't move Aston Villa to Dudley on the other side of Birmingham now would you?

When was there a proposal for a stadium in Fareham?

Erm, Portsmouth has a larger fanbase then. Also, we too are a premiership team.

So was Reading.

When was there a proposal for a stadium in Fareham?

Several years back, before they proposed the one at the Hard. I think it was roughly where they proposed the Training Ground.

Two letters from Knowsley Labour Group:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8621/georgehowarthpleadec09.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8459/kirkbyregeneration.jpg

From Place North West -

Knowsley/Tesco revise Kirkby plans

20 Apr 2010, 10:31

Tesco and Knowsley Council have started drawing up new plans to improve the retail offer in Kirkby town centre following a fresh round of public consultation.

Plans for a new supermarket for Tesco and stadium for Everton FC were rejected at public inquiry in November last year.

The retail element of any new plan is likely to be scaled down compared to the initial proposals as the Secretary of State decided the impact of the proposed retail development would be unfairly damaging on neighbouring towns such as Skelmersdale.

In March, Knowsley Council sent consultation documents to every household and business in Kirkby asking people for views on the future development of the town centre.

The council this week said the findings are currently being compiled but early indications are that new retail facilities and a food superstore remain the top priorities for residents.

Article continues here - http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/archive/5898-knowsley/tesco-revise-kirkby-plans.html

Council reveals views on future of Kirkby town centre
21 Jun 2010, 12:17
Michael Hunt

Residents and businesses in Kirkby have called for new retail facilities and a food superstore, following a public consultation by Knowsley Council.

In March, the council launched a two week consultation asking all residents and businesses in the town for their views on the future development of their town.

The council said more than 1,600 responses were submitted by post, online and at public buildings in the town.

This extensive consultation aimed at giving the entire community the opportunity to help shape future plans for the regeneration of the town, following the old government's rejection of the Destination Kirkby proposal late last year. Destination Kirkby was proposed by Tesco and Everton FC and supported by the council.

Cllr Dave Lonergan, Knowsley Council's cabinet member for regeneration, economy and skills, said: "We had a great response to this consultation and found the feedback really useful. We have already shared with partners and the community the key headlines from the consultation, but these latest findings provide a more detailed overview of the comments and opinions expressed.

"The feedback was broad and varied with comments being made on a range of topics relating to the town centre. This included feedback about improving the visual appearance of the town centre, enhancing transport links and increasing the perception of safety in the area.

We have gone through every single comment made and will be working with partners to address this feedback as new plans for the town centre are developed."

Michael Kissman, from Tesco, added: "The consultation exercise carried out by the council has been really useful to us and helped us to really focus our attention on what matters most to the community. The residents' clear focus on retail has obviously been key for us and has helped to further cement our commitment to developing the town.

"Already we have made good progress in looking at future options for Kirkby and will be speaking to the community very soon as we look to develop a new planning application. We will keep residents informed throughout the process and provide further opportunities for consultation as this develops."

The full findings are now being shared with the community and are available on the council website (http://www.knowsley.gov.uk/).

Already interim findings released have shown that new retail facilities and a food superstore are the top priority for residents. The council said that the full findings confirm this and also highlight a range of other priorities for the community.

The council also said that within the coming days all homes and businesses will receive a copy of the findings report and additional copies will be made available in public buildings in the town.

Source: Place North West (http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/archive/6474-council-reveals-views-on-future-of-kirkby-town-centre.html)

Apologies if this is elsewhere but the revised Tesco plan for the town centre is live now on the council website and makes interesting reading, store 12% smaller, overall retail 40% smaller, the open space where the stadium would have gone, is now not included in the application...

all docs here

http://publicaccess.knowsley.gov.uk/PublicAccess/tdc/DcApplication/application_detailview.aspx?caseno=L7LTWNIX0B200&searchtype=WEEKLY

anyone know what is being built on the green fields just by the roundabout that leads to the LFC academy?

Kirkby regeneration plans to go on public display today

Oct 20 2010
KIRKBY’S proposed new town centre will go under the spotlight today when a public exhibition opens inviting people to have their say on the scheme.

The £250m follow up to the failed destination Kirkby bid is envisaged as a four stage phased development which could start building as early as 2012.

The cash is being provided by Tesco, whose regeneration arm Spenhill is in charge of the project.

Tesco will also form the centrepiece of the new retail development with a 14,000 sq m superstore.

The 26 hectare site is larger than the current town centre footprint so, as well as knocking down most of the shops and businesses already there, 72 homes immediately south of the shopping precinct will also be demolished.

Affected families, tenants of Plusdane housing and owner occupiers, will move to new houses nearby.

Only the shops in the area around St Chads Parade, which is to be landscaped, will remain.

The relocation of the residents will make up the first stage, earmarked for January 2011 to July 2012 while environmental improvements to the existing shops will follow.

Phase 3, the Tesco store and new shops, should be completed between July 2012 and July 2013.

More shops to the north of the existing centre will be built last.

A new health centre, library, petrol station and bus station are also promised while the fate of a proposed Merseytravel tram link between Kirkby and Liverpool is still at the mercy of the Government’s spending review.

Lisa Harris, Knowsley’s service director for regeneration, said that their second attempt at redeveloping the area should not fail like Destination Kirkby.

She said: “That’s why we’re carrying out public consultation to make sure it is the right thing for residents and visitors.

“Although smaller than the last one, it is still a considerable size and could be called in, but we hope that won’t be the case.”

She conceded that some compulsory purchase orders may have to be made to buy up property, but said most people she talked to were in favour of the plans.

Some of those less than impressed by the plans include shop owners who fear they will be “squeezed out” of Kirkby after remaining loyal through its lean years.

Tracey Dougherty’s shop, Floral Elegance, is earmarked for demolition and her landlords, Tesco, can kick her out with six months notice.

She told the ECHO: “Tesco are going to get what they want. I’m not anti-regeneration. Certainly not.

“But what gets my back up is there’s no provision for those of us that are going to be demolished.

“There are no small shops with affordable rents to move into.”

Paul Davies, chairman of Knowsley Traders Association (KTA), said: “Several members of the KTA have had meetings with representatives of Tesco and (regeneration chief) Nick Kavanaugh.

“The talks have been reasonably amicable, but with reference to KTA as a whole they feel they will be squeezed out of the town centre.”

The plans are on show at 24 St Chads Parade between 10am and 3pm from today until Saturday.


Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/10/20/kirkby-regeneration-plans-to-go-on-public-display-today-100252-27506280/#ixzz12uHaynbv

The residents of Kirkby released Chinese lanterns earlier this week to remember Mark Burgan, a soldier killed in Afghanistan:

OuokYeBPodc


rt1LDRwvXRc

Kirkby housing estate to be demolished to make way for Tesco car park only 18 years after it was built
by Marc Waddington, Liverpool Echo. Sep 12 2011

A KIRKBY HOUSING estate which was only built 18 years ago is set to be bulldozed to make way for a supermarket car park.

Spicer Grove, in Kirkby, was built in the early 1990s after a group of residents created a co-operative. It was later taken over by the CDS housing association, now part of Plus Dane.

But now the land is needed for a car park attached to the £200m scheme to build a new Tesco supermarket and regenerate parts of the town centre.

Landlord Plus Dane said it will build new homes for the people who are displaced, but residents said it was a scandal that perfectly good homes would be razed to the ground.


On Wednesday, Knowsley council is set to support the idea of using compulsory purchase orders to purchase the properties if it cannot reach a deal with any landowners.

Resident Dot Reid, 62, said she and her neighbours had suffered “four years of torment and uncertainty” which started with the now-defunct bid to build a new stadium for Everton FC in Kirkby.

Read More - Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2011/09/12/kirkby-housing-estate-to-be-demolished-to-make-way-for-tesco-car-park-only-18-years-after-it-was-built-100252-29404505/#ixzz1XlOne4JK)

Kirkby town centre revamp to start within weeks

WORK to revitalise Kirkby town centre will begin within weeks.

The confirmation comes as council bosses admitted regrets over the delays caused by the failed bid to bring Everton FC to Knowsley.

Since Tesco plans to build a superstore and Blues’s stadium were first floated in 2006 residents have been in limbo – while local landmarks dubbed the “Three Disgraces” remain an eyesore on the town’s streets.

The supermarket chain bought £65m of land in the town centre in 2008. But when the Destination Kirkby plans for a huge retail park and football stadium were rejected in 2009 development stalled.

Talking to the ECHO Knowsley council deputy chief executive and regeneration boss Mike Harden said work remodelling the town centre would begin next month.

He said: “I regret the wait of two years. But I don’t regret our ambition in trying to get the football and retail development. We had to fully back it. I would rather try too much and fail than not try enough.”

Mr Harden said a start date was imminent, with the demolition of the “Three Disgraces” in Cherryfield Drive – the petrol station, the Golden Eagle Hotel and Cherryfield Nursing Home – first on the list. And he admitted the road had looked dilapidated “for too long”.

Mr Harden added: “Tesco got their demolition application in for the nursing home and the Golden Eagle on February 8 – and work pulling them down will start in the middle of March. I hope they are down by the end of the month.”

Mr Harden also said the council continued to talk to Tesco to make sure they didn’t just “sit on the land for two years”.

Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/02/13/kirkby-town-centre-revamp-to-start-within-weeks-100252-30317909/#ixzz1mGGhPAxP

They seem to forget the old social securities offices that have been empty for about 5 years now...

Council puts £7.5m into Kirkby

Knowsley Council has unveiled proposals for an improved market, library and other community facilities in Kirkby town centre.

The proposals, which will be considered by the council's cabinet on 14 March, include a £2.5m revamp of Kirkby Market and the creation of a £5m public services centre in a remodelled Kirkby Suite building.

The redeveloped Kirkby Suite will house a new library & gallery, improved council information centre and offices for Knowsley Housing Trust, Knowsley Works, a meeting room for community use, public toilets, café and facilities for the Adult Disability Day Service.

Kirkby market will be redesigned on the footprint of the existing market with an improved layout, entrance, access to stalls and links to the town centre. There will also be better weather proofing and covered areas, public toilets and a café.

Pending approval, work will commence on both projects within 12 months with the market due to be up and running in July 2013. The new library and gallery will open May 2013 with the public services centre fully complete by December 2013.

Kirkby Health Centre

This seems to be going up quite nicely from what I saw last week. :)

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http://www.knowsley.nhs.uk/assets/uploaded/images/5828_kirkby_ContentImage.jpg

I'm unsure whether these have been posted yet, but they're artists impressions of what the Town Centre should look like after the revamp is complete. It's such a shame that Merseytram Line 1 wasn't built, it would have definitely boosted footfall to Kirkby Town Centre.

http://www.knowsley.gov.uk/images/kirkby-impression-1-crop.jpg

http://www.knowsley.gov.uk/images/kirkby-impression-2-crop.jpg

http://www.knowsley.gov.uk/images/kirkby-impression-3-crop.jpg

http://www.knowsley.gov.uk/images/kirkby-impression-4-crop.jpg

I also noticed the Golden Eagle has finally started coming down...the 'Dickie Lewis's' extension at the side has been flattened so hopefully they will move on to the main building very soon.

Knowsley councillors set to approve next step in Kirkby regeneration plan

Knowsley council’s planning committee is expected to give the green light to two proposals for Kirkby town centre – a revamped market and a new large clothes store.

They are part of long-running proposals to give Kirkby a facelift, which also include a health centre, primary school, library, upgraded public transport facilities and new shops.

First the council wants to create a temporary market in St Chad’s Parade to replace the old one which was demolished earlier this year.

With space for 130 stalls and a car park for up to 28 vehicles for traders and customers, it will be in place for about a year until a new permanent market is built.

Planning officers said they had consulted widely with stallholders over the plans to make sure their needs were met.

A report which will be presented to councillors on Thursday said the new market will form “an integral part” of the wider regeneration of Kirkby.

The committee is also expected to give the go-ahead to a new three-storey shop on the former Petrolite site in Acornfield Road along with car parking, a security gatehouse and other warehouses.

It will be used by retailer Matalan, which is relocating to the site from Skelmersdale.

The regeneration plans for Kirkby initially included a new stadium for Everton FC and a massive shopping complex dominated by a huge Tesco superstore.

Those proposals were halted by the Government, which said they were too ambitious for a town of Kirkby’s size.

But more than £300m is still expected to be ploughed into the town over the next few years in what will be its most radical revamp since the post-war years.

Community leaders said they are hopeful that the town will become a destination for Merseyside shoppers.

Knowsley council’s deputy chief executive Mike Harden said: “We will have two civic squares.

“We want it to still have an identity, even though it will change.

“We do not want it to be just like any other town centre.

“Hundreds of millions of pounds of investment are coming into Kirkby at a time when the economy is on its backside.”

Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/10/08/knowsley-councillors-set-to-approve-next-step-in-kirkby-regeneration-plan-100252-31987705/#ixzz28gwnsvse

Work set to start on £200m Kirkby regeneration

WORK on the long-awaited £200m regeneration of a town by a supermarket giant could begin next week, it was revealed today.

Nearly two years have passed since Tesco’s bid to redevelop Kirkby was given the green light but the site of the proposed superstore is still empty and 72 new homes promised have not been built.

The project, which emerged from the ashes of a failed bid to relocate Everton FC to the town, was tipped to bring up to 300 new jobs and make Kirkby a ‘go-to’ destination for shoppers.

The former Golden Eagle Hotel was knocked down over a year ago to make way for Tesco and land was set aside to build homes to replace those which will be demolished and replaced by a store car park.

Dozens of residents said they feared the first bricks would never be laid in the long-delayed project but supermarket chiefs today confirmed contractors are set to move in next week.

A spokesman said: “The Kirkby regeneration programme remains on track and a key phase will take place next week, with the contractor due to take possession of the (housing) site on St Kevin’s Drive.

“This means that construction work will begin on the new housing development for those residents who currently live on Cherryfield Drive.

“Once the new properties have been built the vacant houses will be demolished to make way for the new retail facilities.

“It is great news for residents that we are about to take such a significant step forward in the wider regeneration of the town centre.”

Campaigners in Kirkby spent months demanding answers from Tesco and its project partner Knowsley council on when work would begin. They said many of the residents whose homes had been earmarked for demolition had spent years worrying about their uncertain future, putting off decorating their houses and buying new furniture for fear of being told to move out immediately afterwards.

John Fleming, chair of the Kirkby Residents’ Action Group, said: “It’s great news for all the residents who have spent years in turmoil.

“But we still want to know more from Tesco about how many other retailers have expressed an interest or signed up to the site.

“If it’s just Tesco then we are going to be no better off. We want the best for Kirkby and have always feared becoming a ‘Tesco town’.”

Knowsley council bosses previously said they hoped the new Tesco would open in spring 2014, but the chain has not yet revealed when building work on the store will begin.

Read more: Liverpool Echo http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-communities/kirkby/kirkby-news/2013/03/13/work-set-to-start-on-200m-kirkby-regeneration-100252-32976588/2/#ixzz2NQpDt89I

Kirkby regeneration starts

Kirkby residents have waited almost two years for the supermarket giants to begin construction work on a new Tesco store and housing developments across the town.

The project, has promised to make Kirkby a “go-to” destination for shoppers in the Merseyside area and will include a £2.5m market funded by the council and a new health centre which is almost complete.

The regeneration also promises 300 new jobs along with 72 new homes which have not yet been built.

Locals feared that the plans would not take shape but Tesco have confirmed that contractors have begun work on the site of the former Golden Eagle Hotel.

A spokesperson for the company confirmed that the project is still on track and construction will begin on the new housing development intended for the residents who currently live on Cherryfield Drive.

Councillor Stuart Arrowsmith told JMU Journalism: “On the Tesco/housing side, there has been a huge amount of work going on but this has really been behind the scenes so far.

“On a programme of this scale there is a massive amount of legal and technical work taking place before construction can begin. Also, it is important to understand that some aspects of the programme can’t take place before others have been completed; for example, work on the Tesco store can’t begin until the houses on Cherryfield Drive have been demolished.”

From the Echo -

Work underway on £200m Kirkby regeneration

BUILDING work on a key phase of the £200m Kirkby regeneration is well underway, project chiefs said today.

Contractors are on site at St Kevin’s Drive, Kirkby, building 71 new homes for residents in Cherryfield Drive who will move to make way for a new Tesco superstore and in the town centre where the old market is being torn down to make way for new facilities.

The regeneration, which will also see the town centre given a major facelift, emerged from the ashes of a failed bid to relocate Everton FC to Kirkby.

Once the new homes – a mix of two, three and four bedroom homes and bungalows – have been built the current ones will be demolished and construction will start on the new Tesco, on the site of the former Golden Eagle hotel.

Knowsley council cabinet member for regeneration, Cllr Dave Lonergan, said: “It is fantastic to see construction work underway on St Kevin’s Drive and I’m really pleased that residents can now look forward to being in their new homes.

Article continues here - http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2013/04/26/work-underway-on-200m-kirkby-regeneration-100252-33238575/