This guy contributed to the argument against freeways here. Not happy!
http://www.balanceresearch.com/subs/adelmats/

Me either, specially considering that railway infrastructure has not improved much since then as well.

I understand the lack of freeways as nobody wants one near them (when they dont know otherwise). I live within 200m of a 6 lane 150000 vehicle per day freeway and I have absolutely no problem with it. I can travel easily and quickly to work or recreationally. Because of the sound barriers I cant even hear it. As for a barrier to other neighbourhoods, there are walk and cycleways that run under it (through broad underpasses) aswell as connecting roads. I dont feel a barrier, nor do I feel opposed upon.
As for dumping traffic into the CBD. This doesnt have to be the case at all. If the route of the freeway runs several kms from the CBD with the function of connecting a larger periferal network then the CBD will not see any change. The big change will be for those who travel from north to south, east to west, Crafters to the Port or beyond.
One north/south route from the Port River Expway to the M2, a (east/west)connection with the M1 from Crafters, and a east/west connection to the northern suburbs from the P.R. Ewy. With that you would have an effective periferal fwy system, not effecting the train network to the CBD.

Your plan sounds perfect, Kiwikaas... but getting the State Govt to fund such a project (buyoff of many properties to make room for a freeway included) won't happen anytime within 50 years :P

heres a good idea for an effective freeway system....

the port river express and salisbury highway need to connect with the southern express and hills express in some way.

out at outer harbor where the port express comes in, connect it to tapleys hill road. change the whole road down to brighton into an expressway, that means cutting off some streets and mabye going underground and sound barriering the whole road. this would be good as some parts of the road are already freeway-like, like the airport route and near west lakes. this would cost a fair bit but is effective and will help transport from north to south. then when it joins to the southern expressway elong it so the southern express reaches victor harbor. at the marion starting point lengthen it so that the first km or two is underground and then pops out in the hills in sturt reserve or somewhere like that, curve it around and meet at the mount osmond intersection. so that a tunnel comes out in the cliff. on the other side, tunnel it a bit again and curve it around a few hills till it gets to burnside, follow the road on the old proposed freeway until it gets close to magill, the run it alongside the homes all the way up to goldne grove. join it up to the golden way and expand to the salisbury highway. somewhere in golden grove a freeway underground for at least a km to tea tree plaza, make the autobahn a freeway to the city and have bus lanes on either ide of the road. this joins to the city. on port road from the city side, cut of all side styreet connectios and soundproof it so that its a highway to portadelaide where it meets up with the port express. on anzac highway, same thing and connect it to the tapleys connection in glenelg. and on glen osmaond road expand it above or underneath for 2ks till the toll gate on the hilss freeway.

this would be really cool. but very costly. no affecting the train network either, even tho that needs desperating fixing as well. a few minor bus alterations but not life changing.

sometime someday ill get this to the goverment and tell them to do it. (hoipefully that is)

if the SA government hasn't invested in rail or freeways what the bloody hell do they do with their money???

Shuzstar: Remind me to never elect you state Transport minister. That would send the state broke. Public transport is the way to go, especially rail. Freeways only cause more cars to cram down the roads, more congestion in the city, uglier, space consuming car parks like those on the end of Rundle Street. Not to mention the massive noise they create and amount of land they require.

Chrisaus: The Southern Expressway cost an arm and a leg, and then the was the whole State Bank bankruptcy thing.

AtD, you'd be surprised what a good Freeway will do to help the environment, even more so than an slightly improved PT system: especially seeing as virtually nothing will make the Adelaide community switch to PT as a preferred mode of transport.

Freeways reduce emissions by cars, as they chew through far less fuel... And secondly, if enough foresight is used, the Freeways can have transit lanes etc etc, and dedicated Bus lanes to help improve the PT system... Seriously, we went wrong somewhere in the past by not planing for this kind of thing :P

the longer you leave the public transport system in its current state the worse and harder it will get to ever make it better, they need a long term transport plan and a vision then stick with it and implement it or you will still be complaing when your in a retirement home and you need the public transport to get around. if the government takes one step at a time they can do alot for adelaide, you can slowly phase in new trains, slowly upgrade the stations etc etc... its not that hard adelaide!

I'd love to see you attempt it, Chris... Seriously, Adelaide doesn't have the corridors available from the CBD that other cities have had available to add transport infrastructure... it'd cost a shiteload!

I'd love to see you attempt it, Chris... Seriously, Adelaide doesn't have the corridors available from the CBD that other cities have had available to add transport infrastructure... it'd cost a shiteload!

The result of such great foresight from past governments...

Just because we don't have fully ground level corridors doesn't mean new transport infrastructure can't be added. It may be more expensive than having ground level infrastructure, but it can be feasible. Look at how Sydney constructed it's new Eastern Suburbs line in the late 1970s. They put part of the connecting Illawara line underground near Redfern because there was no available surface space for more tracks. The tunnel follows on to Central, Town Hall before curving off to Martin Place. Between Martin Place and Kings Cross the line goes from underground to elevated, and then underground near Edgecliff again. Of course you'd only do this if you knew that people would use it.

I'd love to see you attempt it, Chris... Seriously, Adelaide doesn't have the corridors available from the CBD that other cities have had available to add transport infrastructure... it'd cost a shiteload!

Actually, the state government owns corridors of housing trust land that they could use for transport corridors if they really wanted. It would be political suicide, but they do have the ability in the western suburbs especially.

The following is just my view and opinion.

From east to west, metropilitan Adelaide is 15-20 kms, from the hills to the coastline. Therefore, you don't need a freeway running from east to west. That tangent just ain't long enough to justify a freeway.

You have 2 major roads which link the city to the northern areas, that being Main North Road and North East Road. You have ANZAC Highway linking the city to the south-west, and you have Port Road linking the city to the north-west, and you have Sir Donald Bradman Drive and Henley Beach Road linking the city to the western suburbs. So far as linking the city to all parts of the metropolitan area, Adelaide has it covered.

However, from deep north to deep South, metropolitan Adelaide is quite long. The only freeway arguably needed IMO for Adelaide is one which splits the length of metropolitan Adelaide, from north to south. I have driven from beyond Reynella all the way to Elizabeth and it is a long drive.

Does Adelaide need the deep north and deep south connected? I wouldnt know. BUT, and I do mean but, if they do need to be connected, you have the existing South Road which could be considered as a potential freeway.

The one main road which runs from north to south is South Road. Once you get past that intersection where South Road and Marion Road meets, South Road becomes 'freewayish' anyhow. The speed limit is increased, and there is a lack of lights which keeps the traffic flowing. From the Marion Road Intersection heading towards the city and beyond to the north, the Government could invest money to improve the surface of South Road, eliminitaing lights and replacing them with overpasses for where other main roads intersect South Road. For example, where Henley Beach Road intersects South Road, you could get rid of the lights and put an overpass over South Road...do that for all the main intersections along South Road. That way there is flowing traffic for both South Road and all the other major roads which intersect it. I reiterate that this is only my suggestion and obviously it is arguable whether the deep south and the deep north need to be connected.

Like I said above, Adelaide doesnt really need freeways. Getting from A to B can be a hassle in most cities. Unfortunately its a fact of life. Take a look at Melbourne. It has the Eastern Freeway, South Eastern Freeway, Westgate Freeway, Tullamarine Freeway, Frankston Freeway...Melbourne has freeways all over the place. But it still doesnt make life all that much easier.

Its been suggested above by others that public transport should be improved. IMO for Adelaide, I agree that thats the way to go.

Cheers.

Unfortunately the main north-south corridor have been mostly sold off and used for other purposes. The land was 'put aside' by the Dunston government I believe but was mostly sold by the Bannon government to pay off the State Bank debts. From what I remember the freeway was to begin in Lafeters triangle Sturt, then run north between Marion and South roads through Mitchell Park, Edwardstown, Not sure exactly next but then through Mile End where Bunning's is . From their it some how cut across to Mile end, Thebarton, cross Port Road where the Entertainment Center is, then follow the train corridor that runs next to Churchill Rd, then on to Port Wakefield Rd. I remember the argument by the NIMBY crowd suggesting the freeway would turn Adelaide in to Los Angeles with divided communities and ghettos, obviously the governments through the 70's and 80's bought the rhetoric and the proposal was killed off. From what I remember the government owned most, if not all the land needed at one time.

I'll put my 2-bobs worth of semi-informed and really-not-all-that-useful information here:
I hope no freeways get built in Adelaide because:
1. they tend to create barriers to permeability across the city - vehicular and pedestrian
2. they are almost always ugly - and they would probably stand out for miles in pancake flat Adelaide
3. they tend to encourage development on the city fringes, pushing more people further out from the CBD and in doing so creating further demand for even more freeways...wasting more fuel, creating more pollution, pushing people further out again...and so on. IMO the answers lie in urban consolidation and public transport.

a few people have had some ideas that make sense and have changed my opinion that the public transport is the way to go.

rail links, is an especiality. there are many old lines where long narrow parks exist now that can be revamped again for use.

I agree that Adelaide needs more railway lines. Maybe another o-bahn to the south down to Noarlunga or somewhere near there.

For the freeway connecting the Port Expressway to the Southern Expressway, I think they should build that as well.

Build an interchange at the end of the Port Expressway at the intersection with Grand Junction Rd. Then along South Rd. Then, starting at Regency Rd, Ferryden Park, build a tunnel for about 3.3 Km to the Parklands and have the exit just under Park Terrace at Bowden. Then have a viaduct to Port Road in the Parklands and build another short tunnel where Port Road turns towards the City ending at Glover Ave(Only about 600m). Then have the road running along the railway tracks below Burbridge Road. Where the West Terrace Cemetary is, turn the Freeway so that it is either a tunnel or an elevated road above or below the railway tracks. The run the road back alongside the rail lines and then below Anzac Hwy. You can then run a 7-8 Km tunnel down to the Intersection of main South Road, South Road and Ayliffes Rd. And then Main South Road to freeway standard until the Southern Expressway.

You don't want to have to do what Melbourne had to do with Citylink, because your freeways weren't connected.

Toadman: Wouldn't the money be better spent revamping the amazingly underused rail network Adelaide has? "Building more freeways to reduce congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity"

Your proposal has as much chance of getting approved as a 500m tower smack bang in the middle of Adelaide Oval. Not to mention Salisbury to Noarlunga via Port Adelaide is a really retarded path, especially seeing South Road goes directly between the two.

Perhaps use the Southern Expressway corridor to build a second Noarlunga line, extending the Tonsley line to Christies Downs. Get the Blair line running in a more direct path, and continue services up to, say, Mt. Lofty. At least, extend the Tonsley line that extra few hundred metres to Flinders, and while you’re at it, the Grange line to West Lakes.

Or better yet, restrict the urban growth boundary to the parklands. ;)

Overthrow the Holdfast Bay council, take advantage of the unused rail corridor and turn Glenelg into apartment city, with a quick and easy commute, via train, tram or Anzac Highway, to the CBD.

Extend the Glenelg tram southwards along the beachfront to... god knows where, as far as you damn well like.

The suburban rail network will not be expanded until we see electrification... mark my words...

The suburban rail network will not be expanded until we see electrification... mark my words...

Then so be it. Only then could we catch up with the rest of the country.

I'm waiting for the day too...

Then so be it. Only then could we catch up with the rest of the country. Before electrification, the metropolitan broad gauge of 5ft 3in needs to be converted to 4ft 8.5 in .All interstate tracks are that gauge which is standard, and suburban broad gauge comprises apprx. 140 km of TransAdelaide Metro. Recently, the calls by former speaker in Parliament, John Trainor, now Mayor of West Torrens and Adelaide City Council and Mayor Harbison called for interstate trains to return to North Tce Station.This can not happen due to different gauges, and proves how little SA leaders know.

Toadman: "Building more freeways to reduce congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity"
:weirdo:

I'm so sick of hearing this. Some people are born with bad genes. Some people can't cure obesity. Some people don't have any other choice.

also, I think your analogy is wrong. Adding on extra lanes to a road is like widening your belt to cure obedity, Building freeways is like spliting yourself in half to fit into smaller clothes.

also, I think your analogy is wrong. Adding on extra lanes to a road is like widening your belt to cure obedity, Building freeways is like spliting yourself in half to fit into smaller clothes.

I've actually got a book sitting on my desk right now (still have 2 days left on it Barr Smith Library, muahaha), that clearly explains that traffic congestion actually builds as a result of a freeway expansion. It's all in the realm of supply management v demand management. If you solely attempt to fix the problem of congestion by increasng the supply of roads to accomodate cars (by building more), then you are not fixing the fundamental problem - that people demand car based transportation!

This thread is way off whack. Basically it amounts to people trying to replicate the big city feel by copying big city problems. And i'm the one who gets accused of being in favour of car based transport... crap. 30% of Adelaide's land area, yes 30%, is taken up by road infrastructure. Car dependence has caused the northern suburbs to sprawl out of control. We have the worst road accident fatality rate in the country, and the lowest public transport patronage in the country, of below 5% of the population - half of other cities. Yet people want to do the one absolute thing that would kill public transport in this city - build more roads for cars... amazing.

Anyone who doubts what yob said above should have been in Melbourne at about 6 pm Wednesday just gone. The streets which lead to the freeway entrances were mind boggling chocca block. They always are pretty bad at about 6ish. But last Wednesday in particular, a fault caused the closure of the Bolte Bridge, which meant the Western Ring Road Freeway was the alternative, which meant getting on the Westgate Freeway, which meant stand still, 3 kms per hour bumber to bumper traffic on a 4 wide lane freeway. I was in that traffic, I was on my way to my gf's house. Shocker.

Freeways do build car dependency.

Thank you Yob, you have my vote.

Amaruu: Or try driving down Greenhill Road in peak hour traffic while running late for their Microeconomics exam, spending 15 minutes at each set of lights.

Transport planning is just as much about infrastructure and services as it is about social engineering, something many right-wingers won't like.
The point of not building a freeways, but providing public transport-only or limited car-based infrastructure is coerce people into either living close to work or close to public transport. This attraction to public transport corridors also encourages medium-high density land uses. Freeways or more roads simply exacerbate urban sprawl (and low density land use), and discriminate against those who can't drive.
The deal with Adelaide is that there are few freeways - Fine. But when the parking is plentiful and public transport is shite - what do you think theyre going to choose?

Atd, I have driven down Greenhill Rd in peak hour traffic. Just two Fridays ago in fact. I drove into Adelaide on the Friday before the Queen' Birthday holiday weekend, from Glen Osmond Road, left into Greenhill Rd, at about 5.20 pm. It was choccas, but it still don't compare to what I experienced a couple of nights ago. I'm talking being stuck in a 5 (at times 6) lane freeway going the one way, where there are no traffic lights, the speed limit is 100kms p.h. and you are literally crawling, and spending a fair bit of time not moving at all being bumper to bumper.

Greenhill Rd does have its fair share of lights, and that is frustrating (especially if you're running late for an exam, lol). I know the pain of lights because I drive down Dandenong Rd (Princess Highway) every day and it too has its fair share of lights. To put it into perspective, from the city to my turn off from Dandenong Rd in Caulfield, is about 10 kms in distance. In that distance, there are something like 25 sets of lights (excluding pedestrian lights) in that 10 km distance. That's on average, 2.5 sets of lights every km. So basically, for every half a km in driving or less, you come to a set of lights, and this goes on for 10 kms from the city to my area. Even at the best of times that shits me, but in morning and after work traffic, its the absolute pitts. Keep heading outbound and it gets worse. You dont know what frustration with lights is unless you have driven down Dandenong Road. I hate that road with a passion.

Ok, getting back to ADELAIDE.

I have a solution to what you say about freeways building congestion. Make my proposal by-pass of the inner-city. Make it so that there are no on and off-ramps except for the start and end. ie. You would HAVE to drive from Grand Junction Road to Marion and can't get off in between.

The problem with public transport in Adelaide(from what I saw when I lived there) was that it's all focused on the City and the North-East. ie. along the O-bahn. That's why I said, build a second O-bahn. West to the airport, the to the coast, past Glenelg an south to Port Noarlunga.

Adelaides transport problem is its Spires

get over it Blend

Ok, getting back to ADELAIDE.

I have a solution to what you say about freeways building congestion. Make my proposal by-pass of the inner-city. Make it so that there are no on and off-ramps except for the start and end. ie. You would HAVE to drive from Grand Junction Road to Marion and can't get off in between.

It's still a freeway though. It's still encouraging private transport, which is horrendously inefficient. Only now you're making it go right past the main destination for commuters without actually stopping there. That's even more pointless, not only is it big and expensive, but it does nothing to ease the twice daily crunch. There's already plenty of city bypass roads, Fullerton Rd, Portrush Rd, Marion Rd, South Rd, and they're planning to build another just west of the Parklands. The freeway, essentially Salisbury to Noarlunga, would just be linking sprawl with sprawl will mean more sprawl at both ends.

Alternatively, build a rail line. Just as a comparison, and there's a few bad assumptions here I admit:

Take a 6 lane freeway, three lanes in each direction. With the three second gap your driving instructor told you to leave between you and the car in front, that allows 1 car per second in each direction, thus 300 cars per five minutes. At peak capacity with an average of 1.5 people per vehicle, a very generous assumption for commuters, that's 450 in those five minutes. Each lane is 3.5m wide, plus break down lanes, totalling 28m width, plus a buffer zone on either side and possibly down the middle which we will ignore for simplicity.

Take a rail line, with a peak capacity of one train every five minutes, rather conservative really. Each car is 5 seats wide and 20 rows long, thus 100 seated passengers. Two, three, five, ten carriages, 200, 300, 500, 1000 passengers per five minutes. Give each track a very generous 5m width meaning 10m total for the line, again ignoring buffers. Clearly a lot more efficient use of land. Make it a 6 track line and you can have 3 trains per 5 minutes, using the same amount of land as the freeway but with bucket loads more passengers.

You need land for stations, but you need land for freeway interchanges, not to mention all the inner city car parks required, extra congestion in the CBD and all the lovely car exhaust.

Nice in theory, but there in lies the problem. Adelaide is far to sprawled out in most areas to be able to support such high capacity. We could have car parks at the regional stations, but that requires extra land, several square metres for just one passenger. Feeder busses are an option but the inconvenience may be too much for commuters. Not to mention good old vote seeking pollies would see a freeway linking the city to a marginal seat as a much better use of public dollars. "Build and they will come" doesn't seem to suit their needs.

So what is the point of my senseless ramblings? Have denser suburbs, hell maybe even high rises outside the CBD and Glenelg, heaven forbid! Picture clusters of medium to high rise units around centres such as Marion, Goodwood, etc, etc, with a nice high capacity train network linking them all.

Oh well, nice to dream.

I think you're forgetting something, AtD... Trucks and freight carrying vehicles still exist, and clog up Grand Junction Rd, South Rd, Portrush Rd and Hampstead Rd on a daily basis... the only thing that would improve that would be better access to the main freight areas via more free flowing roads such as the Port River expressway...

There is nothing but thin 2 lane arterials between The SE Freeway and Port Adelaide and/or the Northern Industrial areas and freight routes...

not to mention all the lovely car exhaust
I think you'll also find that greenhouse emissions are greatly reduced from travelling in free flowing 100km/h roads rather than stop start traffic.... not to mention fuel economy...

I'm not saying that Freeways are the solution, but they would help, as long as the PT system was overhauled and upgraded concurrently...

Okay and now for a REALLY radical idea, one which the great majority of Australians tend to dismiss outright without a second thought, much less recognise that similar models exists successfully elsewhere

PEDESTRIANISE THE ENTIRE CBD! :);)

...and only allow only buses, taxis, delivery vehicles and select other vehicles in. Also allow higher density development in and around the fringes of the CBD so that people are encouraged to walk into town

...politically totally unpalatable ofcourse

Take a rail line, with a peak capacity of one train every five minutes, rather conservative really. Each car is 5 seats wide and 20 rows long, thus 100 seated passengers. Two, three, five, ten carriages, 200, 300, 500, 1000 passengers per five minutes. Give each track a very generous 5m width meaning 10m total for the line, again ignoring buffers. Clearly a lot more efficient use of land. Make it a 6 track line and you can have 3 trains per 5 minutes, using the same amount of land as the freeway but with bucket loads more passengers.


Widening track simply would not work. Trains would not be very stable on tracks that wide. The width of most train tracks varies between 1m and 1.6m, with trains that can be just over 3m wide. Instead of widening tracks to allow for wider trains, just move the seating so that it is facing sideways and there is a heap of standing room in the middle like they do in Perth.

Okay and now for a REALLY radical idea, one which the great majority of Australians tend to dismiss outright without a second thought, much less recognise that similar models exists successfully elsewhere

PEDESTRIANISE THE ENTIRE CBD! :);)

...and only allow only buses, taxis, delivery vehicles and select other vehicles in. Also allow higher density development in and around the fringes of the CBD so that people are encouraged to walk into town

...politically totally unpalatable ofcourse

It would be a council decision, and they make significant revenue from the chain of Uparks that they own... so no :) I love the idea though! I haven't driven through the CBD in probably 3 years now!

I think you'll also find that greenhouse emissions are greatly reduced from travelling in free flowing 100km/h roads rather than stop start traffic.... not to mention fuel economy...

I'm not saying that Freeways are the solution, but they would help, as long as the PT system was overhauled and upgraded concurrently...

1 Bus can take up to 40 cars off the road - that may be a small reduction in emissions right there ;) There's also other environmental factors, such as polluted water run off from cars, public transport solves this as well.

I totally agree that some form of heavy vehicles infrastructure is required in every city, which is why i'm not opposed to the Port River expressway (although it's ironic that the Port will be moving away from being a fully functioning industrial sea port anyway, perhaps we should have built the Outer Harbour Expressway :)).

If I may elaborated on Atd’s point on urban sprawl. People in Adelaide like to live in a house with a descent size backyard. This indulgence is why public transport will never succeed like it does in NY, London or Tokyo or even Sydney and Melbourne for that matter. There is no demand for High density housing in the suburbs. For some one to spend money on public transport, they will want to see a return on investment, with such a low density distribution of the population nobody will be prepared to take the gamble, specially the government.

I’m not saying there could not be improvements made to the system, but unless there is a fundamental change in population distribution via a retooling of the “Australian Dream” and the much celebrated “Adelaide lifestyle”, there will not be the billions of investment needed to take people out of their cars. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on you view, a north-south freeway would provide a better solution to Adelaide transport woes.

If I may elaborated on Atd’s point on urban sprawl. People in Adelaide like to live in a house with a descent size backyard. This indulgence is why public transport will never succeed like it does in NY, London or Tokyo or even Sydney and Melbourne for that matter. There is no demand for High density housing in the suburbs. For some one to spend money on public transport, they will want to see a return on investment, with such a low density distribution of the population nobody will be prepared to take the gamble, specially the government.

I’m not saying there could not be improvements made to the system, but unless there is a fundamental change in population distribution via a retooling of the “Australian Dream” and the much celebrated “Adelaide lifestyle”, there will not be the billions of investment needed to take people out of their cars. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on you view, a north-south freeway would provide a better solution to Adelaide transport woes.

I agree. Public transport is at its highest patronage when there is significant population densities within 400m of public transport. A study was conducted in urban United States n 1990, to determine the link between population density and modes of transport:

With a population of 2,000 people per square mile, a single resident will make 3.5 trips per day by private vehicle, 0.02 trips by PT (won't use it at all really), 0.21 trips by walking. In an area with 60,000 people per square mile, each individual will make 0.59 trips in a car per day, compared to 1 trip on public transport, 1.55 by walking/cycling...


One thing you have to consider, ADelaide now has an urban growth boundary, and available land within the boundary will be gone within approx 15 years. Population density will increase regardless of whether people want a big yard or not.

Ok, getting back to ADELAIDE.

I have a solution to what you say about freeways building congestion. Make my proposal by-pass of the inner-city. Make it so that there are no on and off-ramps except for the start and end. ie. You would HAVE to drive from Grand Junction Road to Marion and can't get off in between.

The problem with public transport in Adelaide(from what I saw when I lived there) was that it's all focused on the City and the North-East. ie. along the O-bahn. That's why I said, build a second O-bahn. West to the airport, the to the coast, past Glenelg an south to Port Noarlunga.


You don't have a solution.

The solution to congestions is: increasing the use of public transportation, and shorter distances required to travel. Your solution involves basically doubling the distance people need to travel.

If we were really serious about no traffic congestion, then Adelaide would have several business districts, public transport linking each one to the other, and significant move away from zoning maps in favour of mixed use development. Someone here mentioned sprawl - it's not just that people want big yards, it's because with the advent of the motor vehicle, zoning came in place to separate land uses - shopping malls away from houses etc. The reason for this was cars allowed people to travel to further destinations, and it was considered ideal to separate uses so people could enjoy their quiet life in the suburbs away form the comotion of commerce and industry. Considering th sprawling of Australian and American cities, it's been a complete failure.

no one is going to get on a train before it becomes more attractive than the car, how about closing of random busy intersections every peak hour and get those traffic jams bigger till people get fed up and take some public transit... though aussies are so stupid they would rather sit in a traffic jam for 2 hours than a train for 40mins... australian need a good kick in the head

You don't have a solution.

The solution to congestions is: increasing the use of public transportation, and shorter distances required to travel. Your solution involves basically doubling the distance people need to travel.

If we were really serious about no traffic congestion, then Adelaide would have several business districts, public transport linking each one to the other, and significant move away from zoning maps in favour of mixed use development. Someone here mentioned sprawl - it's not just that people want big yards, it's because with the advent of the motor vehicle, zoning came in place to separate land uses - shopping malls away from houses etc. The reason for this was cars allowed people to travel to further destinations, and it was considered ideal to separate uses so people could enjoy their quiet life in the suburbs away form the comotion of commerce and industry. Considering th sprawling of Australian and American cities, it's been a complete failure.

And how do you plan to implement this 'solution'? Demolish the whole city and re-build. Ok, you could build new centres on the edges of the city, but then you have traffic congestion in and out of the city centre.

Obviously, sprawl is not a good thing and yes it was because of cars, but you can't stop that. And if you think you can, I'd love to see your plans.

And the investment that Adelaide would need to make to fix it's public transport systems would be higher than that of the Gold Coast! They would need better bus services, electrified commuter railway systems and possibly more o-bahns.

And how do you plan to implement this 'solution'? Demolish the whole city and re-build.

By zoning higher density zones around commercial centres, such as large shopping centres. Sounds more logically than bulldozing the whole city :eek2:

Rather curious to see that many people dont mind bulldozing homes & other buildings for freeways, but when it comes to public transport or higher density then the s**t hits the fan (the higher density may not be a factor on this forum :D).

By zoning higher density zones around commercial centres, such as large shopping centres. Sounds more logically than bulldozing the whole city

Honestly, if you were a developer, would you build an area of towers in Adelaide? They're never going to get a mini Sydney where you have Sydney centre and then North Sydney, Chatswood, Bondi Junction, Parramatta. You can't get several area of high density in Adelaide. Be realistic.

Honestly, if you were a developer, would you build an area of towers in Adelaide? They're never going to get a mini Sydney where you have Sydney centre and then North Sydney, Chatswood, Bondi Junction, Parramatta. You can't get several area of high density in Adelaide. Be realistic.

Local developer Urban Construct is loving building skyscrapers in Adelaide City, City of Holdfast Bay, Kent Town... they're also in the running for the tenders on 4 skyscrapers to be built in the newly developed, 500 million dollar Port Adelaide urban renewal program.

Rather curious to see that many people dont mind bulldozing homes & other buildings for freeways, but when it comes to public transport or higher density then the s**t hits the fan (the higher density may not be a factor on this forum :D).

That's because more people use freeways. Personally, I wouldn't care if houses got resumed for either, but general public anger tends to rest towards public transport. Also, public transport has a reputation for being slow. Traffic jams are just accepted on freeways.

Local developer Urban Construct is loving building skyscrapers in Adelaide City, City of Holdfast Bay, Kent Town...

Define 'Skyscrapers."

A four storey boutique apartment block is not a skyscraper

Correct, 12 storeys makes a skyscraper. Urban Construct has nearly finished building their current project in Glenelg (12 storeys), with another one in College st going to council (12 storeys). The 4 scrapers in Port Adelaide are in the 12 storey residential zone. Their Adelaide City developments have been 18 storeys. Kent Town has been 14 (I think) storeys, with a new development going up next door at 11 storeys.

what will that make them the tallest towers in Adelaide?

Joke, just a joke, no one take offense to that please.

But honestly, I would not consider haveing a few 12-18 storey towers being built, increadibly high density. It is high, just not that high.

You know what? From now on i'm going to put the same effort into my posts that you are.

oi, I'm serious, 18 storeys hardly makes a city drastically dense.

dog bad poo floor

don't be a dumbass!

One thing you have to consider, ADelaide now has an urban growth boundary, and available land within the boundary will be gone within approx 15 years. Population density will increase regardless of whether people want a big yard or not.

Excellent idea by the sounds of it - where are the boundaries anyway? I just hope they won't be eroded over time like the Hills Face Zone

Excellent idea by the sounds of it - where are the boundaries anyway? I just hope they won't be eroded over time like the Hills Face Zone

There is a complete ban on development in the hills face zone, implemented early this year.

The urban growth boundary ends at Elizabeth, with Gawler also having its own boundary. The hills make up most of the rest of the boundary, and whatever suburb is the south most is where the boundary ends.

There is a complete ban on development in the hills face zone, implemented early this year.

The urban growth boundary ends at Elizabeth, with Gawler also having its own boundary. The hills make up most of the rest of the boundary, and whatever suburb is the south most is where the boundary ends.

You know your stuff mate :okay:

I'm glad if they've reinstated strict hills face controls - only problem is exactly what they've now chosen to define as 'Hills Face Zone'. Seems to be a moving target

will the local councils be forced to approve higher density developents, because its all good for the government to set growth boundaries, but unless the suburban councils agree to lift densities its not going to work, though I don't know how the planning system works in SA

will the local councils be forced to approve higher density developents, because its all good for the government to set growth boundaries, but unless the suburban councils agree to lift densities its not going to work, though I don't know how the planning system works in SA

If there were urgent need to increase densities and a local council got in the way, the state planning authority technically has the power to elevate proposals to a major project status, and take the application out of the jurisdiction of the local council.

Not to mention that should the state government wish to, they could abolish local government completely.

does the SA government have a transport policy? do they support freeways? public transport? both?

does the SA government have a transport policy? do they support freeways? public transport? both?

http://www.dtup.sa.gov.au/transport_plan/pdf/text_only.pdf

This is a draft of what is being submitted to cabinet. The public transport strategy is a work in progress at the moment.

Off the top of my head, the aim is to double public transport patronage and cycling.

I worked for Transport SA for about 2 years, and I swear that I've never seen a worse case of red tape and "public sectorism"... Their transport strategy, while a brilliant concept, will not go anywhere quickly...

Its not hard to upgrade a Rail System, Just have a look at the upgrade of Swanbourne Transit Station In Perth, not much had to be done or spent to make it look alot better
BEFORE
http://wastations.i8.com/swanbourne.jpg
AFTER
http://wastations.i8.com/Swanbourne%2026may03.jpg.jpg

Yes, but South Australia would need to electrify their railway systems as well as that. Although, it does have to happen some time, it may as well happen now.

On that transport plan, was there anything suggesting a possible extension of the current o-bahn or building a second one to the south?

I worked for Transport SA for about 2 years, and I swear that I've never seen a worse case of red tape and "public sectorism"... Their transport strategy, while a brilliant concept, will not go anywhere quickly...

My mate at transport SA gets his calls monitored, and he's in strife if he says "Transport SA" with an east coast accent. There's definitely a different set of priorities than you'd expect around there.... although to their credit, they've got photos of 3 models of tram that they're thinking of purchasing for the Glenelg line.

On that transport plan, was there anything suggesting a possible extension of the current o-bahn or building a second one to the south?

I assume you're not going to bother reading it then?

The draft transport plan is a set of objectives and criteria for future planning of infrastructure, the actual detail about infrastructure spending and upgrades is in the public transport plan which isn't completed yet.

The only planned infrastructure that I know of and is actually being thought about right now is a replacement of the outer harbour train line with light rail, as part of the waterfront redevelopment. As the Grange line shares most of the outer harbour track, i'd also hazard a guess that this could mean the replacement of the grange line with light rail - which makes it a whole lot more possible to redirect to AAMI Stadium. At half the speed of a train though :( If the outerharbour light rail goes ahead, that would mean an extension of the glenelg line through the city along king willy, past Adelaide Oval as well. There's also been talk from the council about light rail going down north terrace.

this may sound stupid but if it isn't electrified what is it? desiel?

Yep, diesel. A mate of mine at the OPT had a train driver scream over the phone at him once because his train had run out of fuel twice in a single week :D

There's this big arse diesel tank next to the adelaide rail station, in the parklands. Recently we had 2 spills from the tank, one reaching the torrens lake. It's a shame its diesel fuel, if it were petrol, we could've had a pyrotechnics show that'd romp it in over Sydney's harbour firework displays.

Most of the diesel ends up in Lake Torrens anyway.

Looks like the government is definately going to get Greens preferences at the next election. NOT!!!

My mate at transport SA gets his calls monitored, and he's in strife if he says "Transport SA" with an east coast accent. There's definitely a different set of priorities than you'd expect around there.... although to their credit, they've got photos of 3 models of tram that they're thinking of purchasing for the Glenelg line.
spot on!

The directors there have 3 people below them decide when to take a lunch break.... :P

Looking back it appears that the Dunstan government of the early 70’s was on the right track. This would have been a reasonable solution to the current urban sprawl of the southern and northern fringes.

“An ambitious but controversial proposal to build a new city near Murray Bridge in the early 1970s produced some innovative concept plans and a number of social and environmental reports. Conceived at a time of high rates of immigration from overseas and high Australian birth rates, it was intended that the new city of Monarto would absorb much of Adelaide's population growth, then projected to reach 1.3 million by the year 2000.
Monarto was admitted into the 'new cities programme' of the Whitlam Labor Government and received $10.5 million in Federal funds for land purchase and tree planting between 1973 and 1976. A drastic revision of projected population growth, and the dislike of both Federal and State Liberal governments for new city ventures, brought about the cancellation of Monarto in 1980. Today part of the site is marked by thousands of flourishing native trees and shrubs planted on the once-bare farmland - markers on the grave of a city that never was.”

At the very least we got the SE freeway and all those trees planted.

I too would like a freeway in adelaide but we simply dont need it. Sure it is really long from north to south but hu actually travels North to south or vice versa regularly? is there even a Freeway in perth? But seriously we dont really need one and it would b a waste of money, money we could use on making more gay Camel statues! Isnt a freeway or something being built near bunnings or something? :S i aint on drugs but i swear i hav heard it before. dont no what bunnings btw

is there even a Freeway in perth?

:bash:

There must me 100s of pics of Perth Freeways on this forum! 100s!

On a contructive note. A pic of a Perth freeway (by Perth4life)
http://img110.exs.cx/img110/9350/p1eimg00027.jpg

Nice to see this thread revived anyway.

I too would like a freeway in adelaide but we simply dont need it. Sure it is really long from north to south but hu actually travels North to south or vice versa regularly? is there even a Freeway in perth? But seriously we dont really need one and it would b a waste of money, money we could use on making more gay Camel statues! Isnt a freeway or something being built near bunnings or something? :S i aint on drugs but i swear i hav heard it before. dont no what bunnings btw

Who actually travels north to south or vice versa on a regular basis. Well lots of people do pal. But not the politicians they all live in the Eastern Suburbs or Unley and have a short drive into the city using their $7000 per annum taxpayer subsidized lease cars.... You would be surprised by the number of individuals that live in the south and work in the north. I like many would want to live anywhere near Elizabeth, Salisbury or Wingfield etc however there are a lot of industries there such as Automotive, Defence, Manufacturing etc etc. Not to mention the increasing number of semis and trucks travelling down our arterial roads such as South Road, Marion Road etc and creating cracks and potholes everywhere.

Giorgio Boy you must work in the CBD and live in Burnside or Stoneyfell to not realize that their are people that travel from south to north and vice versa. But that is not to say Adelaide needs a freeway. Adelaide needs better public transport ie light rail, frequent services, electrification of rail etc etc before it needs a freeway.

But not the politicians they all live in the Eastern Suburbs or Unley

That's... not legally possible.

sorri i didnt realise so many people traveled from south to north and vice versa on a regular basis. and surprisingly i to live in unley... well parkside and yes it is very easy to travel almost anywere. Cross road provides it all. It connects to south road marion road and anzac highway. What more do i need? say they were to build a freeway from north to south, were r they supposed to build it? And how long does it take to get from N to S?

I too would like a freeway in adelaide but we simply dont need it. Sure it is really long from north to south but hu actually travels North to south or vice versa regularly? is there even a Freeway in perth? But seriously we dont really need one and it would b a waste of money, money we could use on making more gay Camel statues! Isnt a freeway or something being built near bunnings or something? :S i aint on drugs but i swear i hav heard it before. dont no what bunnings btw

Surprised as with KIWIKAAS :)

http://img110.exs.cx/img110/8306/l3mimg00029.jpg

http://img110.exs.cx/img110/9350/p1eimg00027.jpg

http://img110.exs.cx/img110/3404/x0oimg00032.jpg

I think the north south fwy is about 70km long. There is also Roe and Graham Farmer and parts of Tonkin is Fwy (about 12km's)

Looking at the various arguements for and against a north-south freeway due to the ensuing commuter traffic I have the following idea.

Keep the M2 as a reversible directional freeway. Run a east-west traverse from Crafters M1 to link with teh M2 just north of Marion.
The interchange will consist of flyovers from the M1 sweeping northbound onto the new North-South freeway. Depending on the direction of the M2 traffic will also be able to sweep to or from the M2 onto the M1 from the south. When closure doent permit this the traffic can enter or exit the M1 from South rd.
The M2 will also continue onto this north-south freeway but with 2 lanes reversible direction running between and seperated from the 2 carrageways of 2 lanes originating from the M1 running on either side of it.. The central one-way section will only have its first exit/entry oportunity at the airport (or there abouts). citybound traffic from the M2 will still have to exit at Marion to head towards the CBD on the traditional routes. This should stem commuter traffic growth to and from the south while providing a trough route for industrial and longdistance traffic through the urban area. The number of interchanges will also be limited to e few key points. The one-way carrageway will eventualy link with the other lanes north of the CBD and the freeway will eventually connect to the Port River expressway.

Difficult without a diagram but hopefully you get the idea.

The Interesting Idea about freeways in Adelaide is the M2 (Southern Expressway), I've never seen or heard of anything like it.

ANother note
http://img110.exs.cx/img110/9350/p1eimg00027.jpg
Can anyone tell me which Perth Freeway this is. Is it Kwiwana/Mitchell Fwy or Graham Farmer, Tonkin Hwy, Roe Hwy etc.

its just before the narrows interchange, not sure what freeway it is, south of that its the kwinnana north the mitchell, its about the spot of the change over, the CBD is right on the left of that shot

So probably the Mitchell Fwy then.

The Interesting Idea about freeways in Adelaide is the M2 (Southern Expressway), I've never seen or heard of anything like it.



What do you mean you have never seen or heard anything like it?

Isn't the M2 more like M1/2? :D

That's... not legally possible.

Really Yob... The politicans most likely own a property
in their electorate and claim it as their primary
residence but most likely have a property in the
eastern suburbs/unley etc.

Cant see a politican silly enough to live in Elizabeth

So probably the Mitchell Fwy then.
yes and no, theres an interchange behind were that pic was taken from and then north of that is the mitchell, theres two interchanges in close proximity to each other!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=159076
Perth Freeways ^ (some pictures u have to go on the properties because there off pbase, there aerials)
btw giorgoss 69 ure a tool, why wouldnt we have freeways.

What do you mean you have never seen or heard anything like it?

As in, i've heard about the M2 before but I never knew it was a one-way rotational Freeway which the concept of it (being one way rotational expressway) i've never seen or heard about before. I am more used to the Regular Freeways which are both directional roads but One Way Freeways I've never seen one or heard of one before.

yes and no, theres an interchange behind were that pic was taken from and then north of that is the mitchell, theres two interchanges in close proximity to each other!

Okay, the bit between the Narrows Interchange and the Interchange that connects the Mitchell/Kwiwana System to the Graham Farmer Fwy.

Okay, the bit between the Narrows Interchange and the Interchange that connects the Mitchell/Kwiwana System to the Graham Farmer Fwy.yer thats right i think, lol i dunno mutch about the northern suburbs.

btw , did u use to live herE?

btw , did u use to live herE?
PM system (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/private.php?)

Questions like that lead the thread waaaay off topic...

This is a South Australia Forum. Go to WA Forum

u were the one who brought it up.

Two examples of freeway layouts in Canadian cities that would probably be the best solution for a future north-south route through Adelaide.

Here is a map of Calgary. You can see that the main north-south freeway runs some km's east of the CBD.
http://listingsca.com/common/maps/calgary.gif
Photo with Calgary CBD in the distance
http://albertaroads.homestead.com/canamex/Hwy2/ab2n2_30_0803.jpg

And another of Edmonton showing the main east-west freeway to the south of the CBD.

http://listingsca.com/common/maps/edmonton.gif
http://albertaroads.homestead.com/files/edm_spf12_0902.jpg

calgary has a similar population to adelaide.

calgary has a similar population to adelaide.

Both those cities do. Grid pattern streets etc. Very good comparisons (I think).

and same skinny river two.

Other ways of minimising urban division from a freeway. Building on top of it with wide bridging.

http://foto.denhaag.org/images/bezuidenhout/images/utrechtsebaan-04.jpg http://foto.denhaag.org/images/bezuidenhout/images/utrechtsebaan-06.jpg http://foto.denhaag.org/images/bezuidenhout/images/utrechtsebaan-10.jpg http://foto.denhaag.org/images/bezuidenhout/images/utrechtsebn-vno-1.jpg http://foto.denhaag.org/images/bezuidenhout/images/ub-haagse-poort-2.jpg

This is a business district but this could be applied with appartments, shops, parks, schools, industrial etc.

Kiwikaas - what's the construction costs like for those types of buildings? You'd have to expect the sound proofing measures alone would be massive?

Kiwikaas - what's the construction costs like for those types of buildings? You'd have to expect the sound proofing measures alone would be massive?
I wont lie to you. Most of those buildings are government (taxpayer projects) with the exception of the large arched building which is owned by an insurance company.
With respect to a possible freeway through the suburbs of Adelaide I was thinking more in terms of a sunken freeway with cut and cover sections with various types of development on top (residential, commercial, recreational etc.). Those examples pictured are more suited to a freeway adjacent to the CBD.

I get the feeling that such buildings in Adelaide just wouldn't happen, due to the mechanics of our private land market combined with a government that, in an attempt to move anything it can to the private sector, not willing to take such significant roles in housing/office space provision.

South Australia's main push for public housing came in response to the huge post war migration of labourers, and hence the government was more willing to participate in providing housing because of the direct economic benefit, rather than the fiscal strain it is now, prodiving housing for the under $'d.

I was thinking more in terms of state/federal consortium to build the road. Private enterprise to develope residential, retail and commercial on top and state/council for recreation,parks etc.

pipe dreams.

I think all comparisons between Calgary and Adelaide's layouts in regards to new road availability ends when we notice that Calgary obviously has a little thing called corridors. We have very few...

Both those cities do. Grid pattern streets etc. Very good comparisons (I think).

Not really, both the Canadian cities have space on all sides. Adelaide is shoehorned in between the gulf and this hills.

There is currently no available land in Adelaide to build a North South freeway. There was land set aside in the late 60's but has since been sold off by subsequent governments to pay of state dept.

Hi,

I'm a newbie to this forum.... I'm wondering if anyone knows of any sites showing photos of the Southern Expressway? Especially interested in aerial views of it.

Thanks!

* Also, if you guys haven't seen already, there's two aerial shots of the airport (a few years old I think) and surrounding suburbs on www.airliners.net . Just type in 'adelaide aerial' and they should come up.

From BuiltEnvirons
http://www.builtenvirons.com.au/gallery/Southern%20Expressway%20Stage%2021.jpg

http://www.builtenvirons.com.au/gallery/Southern%20Expressway%20Stage%2023.jpg

http://www.builtenvirons.com.au/gallery/Southern%20Expressway%20Stage%2025.jpg

From Wiki
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6799/hallaronsouthernexpressway9tc.jpg

Nice. thanks Rev!

Welcome tybalt, im also new!!!

I've got no areal shots sorry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Expressway

These two by me:

http://photoadelaide.com/JunkPile/SouthernExp1.jpg

http://photoadelaide.com/JunkPile/SouthernExp2.jpg

Cheers. Also, it's slightly off topic but I'm wondering can anyone post those photos taken from the top of the Santos building? I tried viewing them in that particular thread but they must be taken down and can't be seen anymore. I'm pretty sure there were three...

AtD, Go back, you are going the wrong way :lol:

Howbout pics of port river expressway?

Sure..here are some pics..

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/projects/port_xpress/images/New%20Folder/docks-1-&-2aug05.jpg

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/projects/port_xpress/images/maps_and_photos_clip_image011.jpg

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/projects/port_xpress/images/clip_image007.jpg
The Hanson rd overpass ^

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/projects/port_xpress/images/artist_impression_south_road_overpass.jpg

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/projects/port_xpress/bbEastview.jpg

http://www.tonkin.com.au/images/50_portriver.jpg

http://www.bluescopesteel.com.au/assets/image/original/34/4E33BC70-3648-4E71-BEBFA388BE68B9CD.jpg

http://aushwys.beldin.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=250&g2_serialNumber=2

http://aushwys.beldin.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=256&g2_serialNumber=2

http://aushwys.beldin.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=260&g2_serialNumber=2

http://aushwys.beldin.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=270&g2_serialNumber=2

http://aushwys.beldin.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1076&g2_serialNumber=1

http://aushwys.beldin.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1108&g2_serialNumber=1

http://aushwys.beldin.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1116&g2_serialNumber=1

All the bunch down here are from aushwys.beldin.org (I thought Id give credit, as it seems they are personal photos)

Great photos Rev1 I definately have to drive on the new Port River Expressway, it looks like a marvellous piece of infraestructure. By the way I was down at Port Adelaide on Sunday, and I can confirm that work has started on the third river bridge.

This may be a little late...but what Adelaide needs to bring it up to big-city standard are not so much new things, but upgrades. There's a plan to turn South Road into a non-stop route from the Salisbury Highway to the Southern Expressway. I think the major roads of Adelaide should be upgraded into non-stop routes.

If you want to get traffic off of South Road, make the Noarlunga Rail line an acceptable alternative to city-bound commuters. If it had higher frequencies of service and better station facilities (Park and Ride, connecting busses, etc) more people would use it.

I think at this stage that it is a little too late for Adelaide to start planning for Non-Stop Limited Access Freeways smack bang in the middle of the Urban Area due to constraints, I think Dual-Carriageway Expressway is the way to go as, you cna choose sections that can have Interchanges, and some where you can have 90km/h sections of road that have at-grade intersections.

The MATS plan of the late 60's had some real big fuckoff freeways proposed, like this one (http://gallery.railpage.com.au/modules.php?full=1&set_albumName=album2223&id=North_Adelaide_Spaghetti&name=gallery&include=view_photo.php) which required the entire suburb of Hindmarsh to be demolished.

Thankfully that monstrosity was never built.

i do think adelaide needs some real thoughtful planning and some sort of freeway between north/south and even east west.

good transort = better economic growth.

Ive never seen that atd, thanks

I agree Adelaide needs a north-south freeway, but i would prefer if the state government fix up the Noarlunga line and stations (and most of the suburban network).

Though its hard to imagine something like that in Adelaide.

That’s exactly what should have been done when the chance presented itself. Now it is too late, and Adelaide will for ever suffer for it.

No guts, no glory!

TooFar, I disagree completely! I think it's just another bad idea from the decade which saw our tram lines ripped up, rail services cut and some of our most fantastic heritage buildings demolished.

if the SA government hasn't invested in rail or freeways what the bloody hell do they do with their money???

Don Dunstan sold the land acquired for the MATS freeways to fund
arts festivals etc... Those things are fun but they dont last and once
they are over you dont have anything to show for it!!!.

Later on John Bannon hires Tim Marcus Clarke without checking his
references (ie previous history about poor management skills) to be
the State Bank Manager, nearly bankrupts the state under $9billion
of debt.

Problem in SA is we keep getting dumb gutless politician after dumb
gutless politician.

TooFar, I disagree completely! I think it's just another bad idea from the decade which saw our tram lines ripped up, rail services cut and some of our most fantastic heritage buildings demolished.

I new you would, and that’s fine. But Adelaide needs a north – south freeway. Suburbs will continue to grow lengthways, as much as you want consolidation, families want to live in a house, businesses need room to expand, developers need room to make money. No amount of public transport will ever meet the need to transport people and goods from one end of the city to the other. So traffic will continue to get worse, people will get more frustrated, goods and services will become more expensive. It is no longer the 20 minute city.

Adelaide had the opportunity 35 years ago to build for the future, instead the politician of the day stuck their heads in the sand, hoping the problem would go away. It hasn’t, and now it is too late. Adelaide stagnates while other cities prosper.

The MATS plan of the late 60's had some real big fuckoff freeways proposed, like this one (http://gallery.railpage.com.au/modules.php?full=1&set_albumName=album2223&id=North_Adelaide_Spaghetti&name=gallery&include=view_photo.php) which required the entire suburb of Hindmarsh to be demolished.

Thankfully that monstrosity was never built.

wicked they should have built that! most of the houses are gonna be destroyed sooner or later.

In the above case you're talking industrial and commercial buildings, like the Clipsal plant. You can see in the areal photograph the area is industry and not residential. Bulldoze a house and you displace a family. Bulldoze a factory and you displace thousands, and this is an entire suburb of them! It'd have been political suicide. It'd be interesting to read the editorials of the day.

The Entertainment Centre and Hidmarsh Stadium have since been built on the site of the proposed freeway.

What do you think, no other city every faced the same situation?

As I said previously, Adelaide has missed the boat, the opportunity to show vision, be bold, build for the future is now gone. Most other cities did it, unfortunately in the last 35 years; there was no premier to do what was in the best interest of the city. Instead they pandered to the nimby crowd, and the city will forever pay the price.

Later on John Bannon hires Tim Marcus Clarke without checking his
references (ie previous history about poor management skills) to be
the State Bank Manager, nearly bankrupts the state under $9billion
of debt.
According to Wikipedia its $4billion


What do you think, no other city every faced the same situation?

As I said previously, Adelaide has missed the boat, the opportunity to show vision, be bold, build for the future is now gone. Most other cities did it, unfortunately in the last 35 years; there was no premier to do what was in the best interest of the city. Instead they pandered to the nimby crowd, and the city will forever pay the price.

If the MATS plan went ahead, it would have destroyed Adelaide and probley would have turned the place into LA (except for the north-south freeway). Yes we had the opportunity to fix things back in the 70s, but that was then this is now. lets stop focusing on the past (such as the MATS plan), let’s focus on the future and how we can improve transportation and make Adelaide a better city. And that’s what the State Government is trying to do (such as the Tram Extension, Bakewell Underpass, South Road Upgrade, Port River Expressway, Northern Expressway, Improve Public Transport and more...)

It is no longer the 20 minute city.
Rubbish, it doesn’t take long to get from one place to another in Adelaide (except for peak hour, which is normal in any city)

You are incorrect AtD, Hindmarsh Stadium is not built where this would have been. You can see it on the map here in the top left corner located on Manton Street. It would not have been effected by the looks of it. It was just already there back then anyway, just a pitch though.

;11581327']You are incorrect AtD, Hindmarsh Stadium is not built where this would have been. You can see it on the map here in the top left corner located on Manton Street. It would not have been effected by the looks of it. It was just already there back then anyway, just a pitch though.

My mistake, misread the map.

That’s exactly what should have been done when the chance presented itself. Now it is too late, and Adelaide will for ever suffer for it.

No guts, no glory!

thank god you were only ever a wannabe politician...

Rubbish, it doesn’t take long to get from one place to another in Adelaide (except for peak hour, which is normal in any city)
im sure it "doesn't take long" for someone living at seaford to drive to their friend's house at golden grove?

Adelaide lost its title of the 20minute city years ago. sure it's the 20minute city if your living in a mansion in Medindie, but most of us dont have that privilege.

If you expect a 20 minute trip to anywhere from Seaford, you're in for a shock. That's what sprawl does.

im sure it "doesn't take long" for someone living at seaford to drive to their friend's house at golden grove?

Adelaide lost its title of the 20minute city years ago. sure it's the 20minute city if your living in a mansion in Medindie, but most of us dont have that privilege.

Says the person living in burside :nuts: (im sure you could live in the city if you wanted too)

thank god you were only ever a wannabe politician...

Well there is still hope. I haven’t ruled out having another go. As they say, I am older and wiser with a lot more experience, so you never know; you could still have the chance to vote for me.:)

If the MATS plan went ahead, it would have destroyed Adelaide and probley would have turned the place into LA (except for the north-south freeway). Yes we had the opportunity to fix things back in the 70s, but that was then this is now. lets stop focusing on the past (such as the MATS plan), let’s focus on the future and how we can improve transportation and make Adelaide a better city. And that’s what the State Government is trying to do (such as the Tram Extension, Bakewell Underpass, South Road Upgrade, Port River Expressway, Northern Expressway, Improve Public Transport and more...)

That always makes me laugh, that stupid ignorant comment. That is exactly what the nay-sayers and nimbys said during the 70’s & 80’s when there was still opportunity to do what was right for the city.

Please explain how building a north-south freeway would turn a city of 1 million into a city of over 20 million? How exactly does that happen? BTW last time I looked, Los Angeles was one of the fastest growing cities in North America, people from all around the planet want to live there, why is that?

Let’s be a little more realistic and compare cities of similar size.

Wellington, NZ – Population 370,000 8km city motorway with more km under construction
http://www.gw.govt.nz/story_images/376_Motorway_s724.jpg

Auckland, NZ – Population 1.2 Million, Extensive urban freeway
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fc/CMJ-1-.jpg

Perth, WA – population 1.5 million, 70+km of urban freeway, more under construction
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/668941/2/istockphoto_668941_perth_skyline.jpg

Brisbane, QLD - Population 1.8 million, 100+km of urban freeway
http://www.geocities.com/tatra_transport/brissie.jpg

Austin, Texas - Population 1.4 million 100+ km of urban freeway
http://www.texasfreeway.com/Austin/photos/i35/images/i35_austin_riverside_looking_n_A_7-july-01_lres.jpg

Quebec city, Quebec - Population 1 million. A world heritage site no less, 8 different urban freeways
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/TooFar/Quebec.jpg

Calgary, Alberta - Population 1 million, North-South freeway, plus more under construction
http://www.garrisonwoods.com/images/calgary.jpg

Athens Greece - Population ~1 Million. City is over 3000 years old. Extensive urban freeway network
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/TooFar/Athens.jpg

I could go on and on, in fact it would be hard pressed to find a city the size of Adelaide with out some sort of freeway network. What does this tell you? Adelaide got it right and all these cities got it wrong? The fact that there is still no solution to Adelaide’s traffic woes and the other cities continue to build freeways may point you to the right answer.

You people are no different to most other nimbys that live in Adelaide, that is why Adelaide stagnates and most other western cities enjoy unprecedented growth.

I drove 18km to work this morning and stopped once at a single set of traffic lights, how about you?

im sure it "doesn't take long" for someone living at seaford to drive to their friend's house at golden grove?

Adelaide lost its title of the 20minute city years ago. sure it's the 20minute city if your living in a mansion in Medindie, but most of us dont have that privilege.

That is a woeful example; I'm talking about Inner Adelaide. Such as from the City to Glenelg, Airport, Port Adelaide, Modbury, Hills, Marion, Beliar etc.

That always makes me laugh, that stupid ignorant comment. That is exactly what the nay-sayers and nimbys said during the 70’s & 80’s when there was still opportunity to do what was right for the city.

Please explain how building a north-south freeway would turn a city of 1 million into a city of over 20 million? How exactly does that happen? BTW last time I looked, Los Angeles was one of the fastest growing cities in North America, people from all around the planet want to live there, why is that?

I could go on and on, in fact it would be hard pressed to find a city the size of Adelaide with out some sort of freeway network. What does this tell you?

Did you read anything I just said? no I didn’t think so

I never said building a north-south freeway would turn Adelaide into LA, I said all of the MATS plan would have. Oh and btw i havent heard many 'good' things about LA.

Building all those freeways would of destroyed parts of the Belair area, south eastern suburbs and would of divided parts of Adelaide that would have created ghettos.

Adelaide is one of the most unique cities on earth, as the roads are grid pattern (very easy to get around) and is a very narrow city. So the only freeway Adelaide needs is a north-south freeway, which I said before

Yes all those cities have a good freeway system, but i'm positive there would be cities that are around the same size as Adelaide that don’t have extensive freeway system.



Every city is different. So what your saying lets just spend tens of billions of dollars on demolishing businesses, homes just to keep the ignorant and selfish car-dependant people happy?, instead of fixing up a woeful public transport system? – great idea, that’s going to make Adelaide heaps better :ohno:

You people are no different to most other nimbys that live in Adelaide, that is why Adelaide stagnates and most other western cities enjoy unprecedented growth.

?

If you’re trying to call me a NIMBY, you are a wanker. You know people like you piss me off; you come on here with your negative shit and ranting on about the past.

If Adelaide’s stagnating, I can’t wait for the boom. Allot of people I have spoken to who lived though the 90s, have said Adelaide has improved heaps in the last couple of years and its got a new lease of life. Just check out all these projects (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=378420) in Adelaide, there might not be any tall skyscrapers but there are heaps and heaps of developments, plus Regional South Australia is taking off (especially in the Murraylands, Yorke Peninsula/Mid North and the Outback)

When was the last time you came to SA?

I drove 18km to work this morning and stopped once at a single set of traffic lights, how about you

I caught a bus to the city, as I find its more efficient and cheaper.

.

Wellington, NZ – Population 370,000 8km city motorway with more km under construction
http://www.gw.govt.nz/story_images/376_Motorway_s724.jpg

Actually Wellington has aprox 20-25km of urban motorways.

I agree with your arguments that it is quite strange that Adelaide is probably the only million+ city in the developed world without a freeway network, however looking at the current contraints on where to build a freeway and not to mention the enormous cost of contruction these days it would seem that arterial upgrades like the South Road project are pretty much the only options left for major road development within the urban area. It should be possible to develop South Road into a non stop, grade seperated arterial road over time.

I could go on and on, in fact it would be hard pressed to find a city the size of Adelaide with out some sort of freeway network. What does this tell you? Adelaide got it right and all these cities got it wrong? The fact that there is still no solution to Adelaide’s traffic woes and the other cities continue to build freeways may point you to the right answer.

You people are no different to most other nimbys that live in Adelaide, that is why Adelaide stagnates and most other western cities enjoy unprecedented growth.

I drove 18km to work this morning and stopped once at a single set of traffic lights, how about you?

Adelaide is full of NIMBY's and UNEDUCATED FOOL's just look at the
Advertiser Editorials people complaining about the Tram Extension etc,
thats why the GOVERNMENT's of the day can get away with squandering hundreds of millions if not billions (as in the State Bank case) without any accountability. When its time to build a road or upgrade rail services theres no money.

In other countries they just bite the bullet and fund infrastructure projects
for future prosperity. Many of those countries are third world and have much lower GDP or GSP than Adelaide and South Australia.

I drove 18km to work this morning and stopped once at a single set of traffic lights, how about you?

And that's the exact reason we shouldn't be building freeways - it encourages urban sprawl like nobody's business and creates a society dependant on cars. Without the usable public transport alternative, which is very hard to provide in low density urban areas, those in outer suburbs rely on their cars for their daily commute to work.

Without a car, people have significantly lower chances of employment, and without employment, they have no means to acquire a car. Those on low incomes move to the cheaper outer suburbs, where cars are needed the most. For these people, keeping a car running costs a significant part of their income. So you end up with poorer outer suburbs with greater dependence on welfare, which is what Adelaide has already.

Had the house where I grew up not been so close to the O-Bahn, I don't know how I could have got though Uni because my parents had no ability at all to buy a car for me.

Crawf, I know you wear your heart on your sleeve and constantly fly the flag for Adelaide on these forums. But you need to either travel more or stop using the Advertiser as you only source of information.

I’m not saying that the complete MATS plan would have been suitable, but it would have been nice if just one of those freeways was built.

Either way, can you explain how MATS would have turned Adelaide in to a super metropolis? It would not have, it is just a stupid, ill informed comment. No different to the comments made about the 6 star hotel proposed for North Adelaide. With your logic, every city that built a freeway would have turned into a LA clone, obviously they have not. What it would have done is provided a city of 1 million, a comprehensive freeway network for the future. It probably would have allowed more green space to remain around the city as the suburbs would not have to be crammed next to each other.

Exactly how does a freeway create ghettos? They don’t, poverty exists whether there are freeways or not. Are there ghettos in Perth?

Sorry to break it to you, but Adelaide is not one of the most unique cities on earth. Yes there are many things that make it distinct, but 95% of all North American cities are built on a grid pattern. This idea was not invented by Colonel Light. In fact Adelaide is very similar to most North America cities in that it has sprawling suburbs; the only difference is that Adelaide did not build the roads to go with the suburbs.

In order to have a comprehensive public transport system, you need a medium to high density population. Such as most European cities, New York, Chicago, Hong Kong, Singapore ect. Adelaide has the opposite. Further more, there is an adhoc collection of non connecting systems; I mean really, could the PT system be any more dissimilar?

And American cities have greater income inequality than Australia ones! (Not that I'm saying this is only caused by the urban layout) Freeways don't cause ghettos, but they can help keep the poorer people poor.

That is a woeful example; I'm talking about Inner Adelaide. Such as from the City to Glenelg, Airport, Port Adelaide, Modbury, Hills, Marion, Beliar etc.
yes but my point is, as AtD rightly understood, that Adelaide's urban sprawl has left those in outer suburbs in a state of near isolation. the fact is that it doesnt take 20 minutes for the average Adelaidian to get from one side of the city to the other.

for its population, Adelaide would have to be one of the largest cities in the world, with a poor public transport and road system, which as we all know, needs to be upgraded.

and just in case you havnt realised, the NIMBYs are people who live in areas adjacent to the city, so they probably cannot see the sense in investing in PT. im sure someone living in seaford or golden grove would have no problem if a train line running to the city was constructed in their suburb.

Every city is different. So what your saying lets just spend tens of billions of dollars on demolishing businesses, homes just to keep the ignorant and selfish car-dependant people happy?, instead of fixing up a woeful public transport system? – great idea, that’s going to make Adelaide heaps better :ohno:
fact of the matter is, it would cost billions of dollars to bring Adelaide's PT system up to 21st century standards.

I posted a reply in regards to Public Transport, but moved it to the Public Transport thread.

PT Thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=11602579#post11602579)

Crawf, I know you wear your heart on your sleeve and constantly fly the flag for Adelaide on these forums. But you need to either travel more or stop using the Advertiser as you only source of information.

Well you get your head out your arse, Cant a person be proud and have allot of positively about a place where they live and love?. I'll be the first to admit Adelaide has problems (such as the conservative attitude), but every city has its fair share of issues. I was watching the news last night about the Melbourne Trains stuffing up and I thought to myself if that happened in Adelaide, people would be blaming the state itself and ranting on that we are backward and yada yada - its pathetic.

Oh and can you get you facts straight I didn’t use any of my information from the Advertiser (if you payed more attention you would know I cant stand the tiser and wish Adelaide get a new major paper). Though you didn’t answer my question, when was the last time you came to Adelaide?

I’m not saying that the complete MATS plan would have been suitable, but it would have been nice if just one of those freeways was built
Why didn’t you say that before?, You made it sound like to me that you would of loved for all those freeways to be built.

No different to the comments made about the 6 star hotel proposed for North Adelaide. With your logic, every city that built a freeway would have turned into a LA clone, obviously they have not. What it would have done is provided a city of 1 million, a comprehensive freeway network for the future.
I'm not going to comment about the comments made about the Old Lecornu site, as I cant remember them, though I must say there’s a possibility the State Government will make this a major project *fingers cross*.

Yes it would have given Adelaide a good freeway network, but the freeways would have ended up being clogged up with traffic, fuck all spent on PT and put more pollution into the atmosphere. As I said before, a north-south freeway would have been brilliant, but the days of that happening is over unless we upgrade South Road to a freeway standard (which the government is currently doing).

It probably would have allowed more green space to remain around the city as the suburbs would not have to be crammed next to each other.

Yeah and extend Adelaide further out. :ohno:

Exactly how does a freeway create ghettos? They don’t, poverty exists whether there are freeways or not. Are there ghettos in Perth?

Sorry to break it to you, but Adelaide is not one of the most unique cities on earth. Yes there are many things that make it distinct, but 95% of all North American cities are built on a grid pattern. This idea was not invented by Colonel Light. In fact Adelaide is very similar to most North America cities in that it has sprawling suburbs; the only difference is that Adelaide did not build the roads to go with the suburbs.
Unique I mean it is a very narrow city, bounded by the hills and sea. The airport is right smack bang in Inner Adelaide, low-rise skyline, it only takes 15-20mins and you’re in the countryside. Adelaide has a very good road network, accept it doesn’t have a good freeway network and some of the roads aren’t wide enough (such as South Rd & Glen Osmond Road).

In order to have a comprehensive public transport system, you need a medium to high density population. Such as most European cities, New York, Chicago, Hong Kong, Singapore ect. Adelaide has the opposite. Further more, there is an adhoc collection of non connecting systems; I mean really, could the PT system be any more dissimilar?

I don’t know what it was like when you were living here, but I find Adelaide’s bus/tram system pretty good, Adelaide now has 23 go-zones now. There’s now a bus that runs every 15mins from Tea Tree Plaza to the Airport via the CBD. As for the train network, don’t get me started.

fact of the matter is, it would cost billions of dollars to bring Adelaide's PT system up to 21st century standards.
Yes, and it would cost billions to build a good freeway system

and just in case you havnt realised, the NIMBYs are people who live in areas adjacent to the city, so they probably cannot see the sense in investing in PT. im sure someone living in seaford or golden grove would have no problem if a train line running to the city was constructed in their suburb.

I don’t know about that, I think it’s a problem right around the metropolitan area, especially after reading letters sent to the tiser.

Well you get your head out your arse, Cant a person be proud and have allot of positively about a place where they live and love?. I'll be the first to admit Adelaide has problems (such as the conservative attitude), but every city has its fair share of issues. I was watching the news last night about the Melbourne Trains stuffing up and I thought to myself if that happened in Adelaide, people would be blaming the state itself and ranting on that we are backward and yada yada - its pathetic.
It is great that you are positive and promote the city on these forums, but you do need a dose of reality.

Oh and can you get you facts straight I didn’t use any of my information from the Advertiser (if you payed more attention you would know I cant stand the tiser and wish Adelaide get a new major paper). Though you didn’t answer my question, when was the last time you came to Adelaide?
You might hate the advertiser, but it is pretty obvious that you read it.

I was Adelaide for a few weeks at the beginning of last year.

I'm not going to comment about the comments made about the Old Lecornu site, as I cant remember them, though I must say there’s a possibility the State Government will make this a major project *fingers cross*.
Convenient that you have forgotten all about the Le Cornu debacle.

Yes it would have given Adelaide a good freeway network, but the freeways would have ended up being clogged up with traffic, fuck all spent on PT and put more pollution into the atmosphere. As I said before, a north-south freeway would have been brilliant, but the days of that happening is over unless we upgrade South Road to a freeway standard (which the government is currently doing).
Why do you assume that by building freeways, they automatically all get jammed? Where exactly have you lived that had a freeway network? Congestion usually happens around peak hour, and only when the roads have reach capacity or are badly planned.

It is proven that traffic moving freely at 80km/h causes less pollution that traffic inching along South road at 30km/h.

I’m not sure if this is news to you, but f*ck all has been spent on PT in the last 35 years anyway.

Yeah and extend Adelaide further out. :ohno:
What is exactly wrong with the suburbs being a collection of villages separated by green space? When you have good transit options a few extra kms makes no difference. Have you ever been to Boston? Probably not, but if you had, you would notice that the outer suburbs are surrounded by lakes, rivers and plenty of green space, not endless suburbs and strip malls.

Ever been to Germany, there is not many Über cities in Germany? That’s strange considering the population. Instead they have villages connect by good roads and mass transit. It can be done, it just take someone with vision.

^^

why bother, he's like 15, never been anywhere

I am not so sure that an extensive freeway system is that necessary in Adelaide. Greater Adelaide has many good arterial roads, unlike a lot of other cities, which cover a large proportion of the metro population. The only truely necessary freeway would be north-south, with a branch to Port Adelaide, if only to take frieght off the roads, as that is a huge issue. It would be nice if the South Eastern terminated at the parklands, but bar major tunneling that isn't going to happen. Having spent some time living in places such as Sydney, Shanghai and Milan, I wouldn't be too quick to bag Adelaide's roads as they are very effective compared to many other cities which do have large freeway systems.... and it is sooooo good to not have to pay any bullshit tolls too... I really really hate tolls :bash:

It is great that you are positive and promote the city on these forums, but you do need a dose of reality.

Actually no i dont, ive changed my views on allot of issues regarding Adelaide in the last couple of months, but I think you need a dose of reality

How about this for a solution to Adelaide Mass Transit problems? Completely remove the passenger train network. Instead replace the lines with 4 lanes of O-Bahn tracks. The inner two lanes will be used for express busses while the outside lanes will be stopping buses. Expresses buses will come from the outer suburbs and not stop once they hit inner Adelaide. The inner suburban buses can join the network from any nearby main road, without disrupting the express buses. It can all be controlled via a computer software system so buses can run at maximum speed and duration with out compromising safety.

This solution would provide three immediate benefits, remove a lot of the bus congestion from main roads, reducing the need to purchase expensive diesel-electric trains, and provide more regular service. It would also make Adelaide a pioneer and world leader in Mass Transit solutions.

You might hate the advertiser, but it is pretty obvious that you read it.
Well its the only major newspaper for Adelaide. Though ive started to read the Independant Weekly and Adelaide Review.

Convenient that you have forgotten all about the Le Cornu debacle.
I never said i forgot about the Lecornu Site, i said i cant remember the comments made about the issue. Anyway whats the point of remembering something pointless that happened in the past, thinking about the past gets you no where IMO. I just hope the State Government come to their senses and ignore the ACC and give this project 'major project' status this year.

I am not so sure that an extensive freeway system is that necessary in Adelaide. Greater Adelaide has many good arterial roads, unlike a lot of other cities, which cover a large proportion of the metro population. The only truely necessary freeway would be north-south, with a branch to Port Adelaide, if only to take frieght off the roads, as that is a huge issue. It would be nice if the South Eastern terminated at the parklands, but bar major tunneling that isn't going to happen. Having spent some time living in places such as Sydney, Shanghai and Milan, I wouldn't be too quick to bag Adelaide's roads as they are very effective compared to many other cities which do have large freeway systems.... and it is sooooo good to not have to pay any bullshit tolls too... I really really hate tolls :bash:

:yes:

I have read this whole debate and there is one clear thing that comes out of it:

No one is going to win!

Adelaide had the vision to create freeways.

Elected leaders have since sold off the land of these visionaries.

So we are now confronted with the reality that it will cost HUGE sums of money to create these freeways - even the proposed North-South freeway touted on this forum.

It comes down to the guts of our leaders of today to implement ideas that will reduce the traffic congestion that is starting to engulf Adelaide.

Personally I don't think we need freeways. But saying that, if we don't build freeways, Adelaide needs an extensive network of public transport that will service the majority of Adelaidians. Bite the bullet and spend the money to electrify the rail. Extend the rail. A couple of years ago, Bualderstone Hornibrook brought forward a proposal to electrify the rail system and also extend it to places such as: The airport, AAMI, and the eastern suburbs but the government rejected this as they said they would have no control on cost of tickets! Maybe it is time that Mike called back Baulderstone Hornibrook.

I think so...

A trainline to West Lakes, Airport and the eastern suburbs, would be great...

I think so...

A trainline to West Lakes, Airport and the eastern suburbs, would be great...

Trams running down Sir Donald Bradman Drive and up the Parade would be a lot easier and less costly than a trainline.

Hope they reroute a lot of the buses congesting King William once they extend the Tram Line otherwise its going to be CHAOS. Spent 15 mins going from next to the Festival Centre to Grenfell Street last night, buses were everywhere

STEELE TALLON, RENATO CASTELLO
March 25, 2007 11:15am

ADELAIDE has recorded the worst increase in peak-hour traffic congestion of any Australian capital city over the past decade.

Research by national transport analyst Austroads found delays caused by Adelaide's morning traffic crush had increased by 30 per cent since 1997/98.
Perth recorded the second-worst increase in delays (18.5 per cent), followed by Sydney (9 per cent), Melbourne (7 per cent) and Brisbane (6 per cent).

The research calculated the delays by comparing peak-hour travel times on a variety of major roads with nominal travel times – the length of time it would have taken to travel the same distance at the posted speed limit.

It found the Adelaide rush hour holds up motorists by 44 seconds for every kilometre travelled compared to 33secs/km in 1997/98.

For an average motorist driving 15km to work daily, that 44-second delay equates to an extra 55 minutes on the road each week and almost 48 hours annually.

Adelaide's traffic woes are increasing at such a rate that delays are now almost as bad as Melbourne, where peak-hour congestion holds up motorists by 46 seconds each kilometre. Overall, Sydney has the worst peak-hour delay of 51secs/km. The Austroads research also showed a sharp decline in travel speeds across Adelaide during morning peak hour, motorists averaging 35.8km/h compared to 39.2km/h in 1998/99.

The figures come amid claims the State Government has lost any chance of an overall solution to ending the city's traffic woes.

Former Liberal premier Steele Hall and former director-general of transport Dr Derek Scrafton have both criticised the Government's lack of vision. Mr Hall, who was premier from 1968-1970, said Adelaide's hope for a transport vision were lost with the scrapping of the Metropolitan Adelaide Transportation Study.

The study set out a network of expressways and freeways through the city, but was scrapped by the Dunstan Labor Government in 1971.

"The fact is that Labor has an appalling history of not acting on SA's infrastructure," Mr Hall said. Projects such as underpasses along South Rd were a "piecemeal approach because the opportunity has been lost" for a transport blueprint.

"We will see the odd improvements here and there, but we are standing still in road development," he said. "Quite clearly we need (transport) corridors that we haven't now got. The transport network will never reach the needs that Adelaide requires."

In a candid admission during the week, Transport Minister Patrick Conlon told a meeting of the state's property developers, planners and transport experts that the Government did not have a long-term transport vision.

"I will accept the criticism that we don't have a bigger plan," he said.

"If you think we need a bigger plan you should add your voice to it and tell my Treasurer (Kevin Foley).

He told the 60-strong crowd at a Property Council of SA forum the "vision is there if you want to look for it".

The State Government shelved its draft Transport Plan in 2003.

Dr Scrafton, who served under both Liberal and Labor governments, did not expect the incumbent Labor Government nor any future one to publish a transport blueprint.

"They'll bluff their way now," he said of the Rann Government.

"They'll put some money into electrifying the railway or something similar. The next government will then promise to have a plan and won't (deliver) and so on, and we will continue to hold our breath."

Property Council of SA executive director Nathan Paine said the Government had to co-ordinate transport investment with future commercial and residential precincts.

"As with the current Glenelg tramline extension, transport projects announced in isolation will not generate the magnitude of investment we could expect to see from a detailed transport blueprint," Mr Paine said.

I can believe the time it takes to travel. I can usually get to Adelaide in about the same time, if not quicker, then friends from Noarlunga.

Said friends from Noarlunga should take an express train if they're regular commuters.

Yesterdays Advertiser had articles noting treasure Foley indicating
that the next few State Budgets will have increased spending on
infrastructure from about $500 million a year to over $1 billion a year.
So there may be a few new developments in the pipeline ie more
underpasses/overpasses/bypasses and electrification of the railway,
new rolling stock, better public transport etc

^^ Yeah I read that article too but it seemed like most of that investment was to be for the mining boom areas. But that is a hell of a lot of money and I am sure that Adelaide will receive its fair share. I think that the regional centres definitely deserve this investment as they have been forgotten for a long time previous. This sort of investment money really makes the 31 $m that is going to be spent on the tram extension seem insignificant and yet there were rants about that cash should be spent elsewhere.

Wow, thats good news

If you grow as a road city and dont invest you get traffic problems. There was some vision in Perth i give you that...

Perth is currently investing in PT and Network stratagy in with our freeway network. Because Perth has little room for a freeway East. If you dont have room invest in rail hevy.

I doubt converting South Road into a freeway would be of much benefit, it will be clogged because it would be the only road in metropolitan Adelaide of its type.

If we converted, say, Main North Road or Cross Road into a non-stop route then it would somehow lessen the traffic congestion possible for South Road.

The cost of what I'm about to say will be controversial and astronomical, but here goes:

How about buying back the original North-South Freeway corridor as proposed by MATS and putting a north-south freeway here. Continue ahead with the plan fro South Road's transformation, but make the corridor the freeway.

I'm currently writing a fifteen page transport plan for Adelaide full of sugestions and recommendations; I hope to finish it soon, and then I don't know what I'll do.

My ideas will be clearer when I finish it.

Bleh, use the money on bringing the rail network up to scratch. That'll pull more cars off the road.

Bleh, use the money on bringing the rail network up to scratch. That'll pull more cars off the road.
Agreed - you only need to look at cities like Auckland which are ploughing money into road development to realise that development of motorway/freeway/expressway infrastructure just leads to more cars filling the gaps. Electrify the railway!

Bleh, use the money on bringing the rail network up to scratch. That'll pull more cars off the road.

So Atd how do you intend to force people to catch trains?

With a stick.

With a sharpened end?

Quite an entertaining thread between Crawf and TooFar. All I can say is thank god Crawf is here in Adelaide and TooFar is along way away in Canada.

Quite an entertaining thread between Crawf and TooFar. All I can say is thank god Crawf is here in Adelaide and TooFar is along way away in Canada.

i think we should put them in a boxing ring and let them sort it out. ding ding!

:bowtie:

I may be a long way away, but I have spent long enough in Adelaide and other cities to realize the benefits of an urban freeway.

I have to agree TooFar on this subject. Sometimes being on the spot can be a disadvantage. Your views can get clouded as your field of view is limited to your doorstep so to speak. Being at a distance but also being familiar with the local situation can make it easier to get a clearer overview. Not to mention the fact that one offen sees what is being proposed on a daily basis in it's completed working form.

Your incorrect auckland 1.6mil,athens 4mil and motorway built for olympics,quebec 1 mil in city and 1mil in metro and calgary 1mil in city and 6mil in metro. proof wikipedia and emporis.

Your incorrect auckland 1.6mil,athens 4mil and motorway built for olympics,quebec 1 mil in city and 1mil in metro and calgary 1mil in city and 6mil in metro. proof wikipedia and emporis.

Before we get into the obvious question of - what the f-ck are you refering to? - since when does Calgary have a metro of 6 million? Thats nearly double the population of the whole province of Alberta. Btw, Auckland doesn't have 1.6 million either.

Now back to the question at hand. What the f-ck are you refering to (who,what etc)?

And wikipedia is the most reliable source on the net ;)

go emporis and each city or type in each city in wikipedia and thats how i found it out but still south australia as whole only holds 1.5million which isnt alot so you can understand why theres no freeways.

^^
Of which 1.1 million live in Adelaide. And there are freeways in South Australia. I would hazard a guess that there is about 100km of freeway and about another 200km of 4-lane divided highway/expressway. This thread refers to Adelaide's urban network or lack thereof not a statewide network. Emporis and Wiki will not supply you with any information usefull to THIS thread.

go emporis and each city or type in each city in wikipedia and thats how i found it out but still south australia as whole only holds 1.5million which isnt alot so you can understand why theres no freeways.
I did go to both Wikipedia and Emporis, and nowhere does it say anything about 6,000,000 in the Calgary metro.

And as KIWIKAAS said, there are freeways in SA. The SE Fwy, the Gawler Bypass, the Port River Expressway, the Southern Expressway, and soon, the Northern Expressway.

timmy- brissy must be just taking the piss.

I guess you can sorta include the Port Wakefield Road, City Bypass & Reynella Bypass

i mean high standard 3 laners with good tarmac.

^^ oh shut up

timmy- brissy, how old are you?

I guess you can sorta include the Port Wakefield Road, City Bypass & Reynella Bypass
City Bypass:?

do you mean Robe Tce/Hackney Rd??

No the City West Connector

No the City West Connector
oh...the one that goes by klemzig.
thats hardly freeway standard.

oh...the one that goes by klemzig.
thats hardly freeway standard.

Sure aint but they could make it a lot better.

Doing up Churchill Road into a dual lane road (it has enough space
on the sides) connecting it to Port Wakefield Road. All major intersections
should have overpasses. Then tunnel under Torrens Road to link it to
Port Road. The City West Connector should then tunnel under Sir Donald
Bradman Drive to connect South Road and it should be widened to dual
lane in either direction.....

If only our government had a vision and wasnt into so much belt tightening.
I wonder if they have any holes left so they can tighten it further hahahaha

sorry about the calgary 6 mil wrong as u said just i was tired it was 2.20 in uk when i answered could anyone show me any pics of SA freeways.

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~krool/photos/sa/Glen%20Osmond-Adelaide-Crafers%20Hwy5.jpg

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~krool/photos/sa/Heysen%20Tunnels1.jpg

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~krool/photos/sa/Noarlunga%20Centre-Southern%20Exp3.jpg

we dont have many freeways but many scenic Aterial roads

there basicly all crafers highway

The bottom one is the Southern Expressway

Port River Expressway
http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/projects/port_xpress/images/stage1_clip_image002.jpg
http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/projects/port_xpress/images/stage1-2/images/expresswayaug05.jpg
http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/projects/port_xpress/images/stage1-2/images/south-rd-overpass-aug05.jpg

there basicly all crafers highway

As crawf said the bottom one is the southern expressway but if you the roads then dont ask for pictures.

how long is that tunnel? Any more info on it around?

The Heysen Tunnels are ~600m in length.

Gawler Bypass by Google Maps (http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=gawler+bypass,+sa&sll=-34.571638,138.746638&sspn=0.007262,0.012896&ie=UTF8&ll=-34.571903,138.746831&spn=0.007262,0.012896&t=k&z=16&om=1)

A tunnel along South Road, which will be bigger than the Heysen Tunnel has been proposed

Also 2 underpasses are under construction (South Rd/Anzac Highway and the Bakewell Underpass) and another proposed.

So how are the roads in adelaide going i havent been on this thread in ages.

They're good. If there's too much traffic turning right at one intersection, you just carry on until the next intersection. If there's too much traffic turning there, you carry on to the next. You know where every road goes because they only really go in two directions.

Yay for grids.

So have any of your projects started to kick off or are in the middle things.I watched a vid on youtube on SA new road but i cant remember ill try an look for it.

Click the below link:

:)

Thanks AtD theres lots going on in adelaide.

it would be a bit hard to make a freeway through adelaide anyway these day because there is really no room. i no south road and cross road heading to the south east freeway gets congestion easy. the overpasses for the south road road will be good but were is the tunnel starting and ending? public transport is the way to go for adelaide i believe and creating more jobs outside the city for places like the deep south with the inner city workers going to the city so there would be no run down of the city. This is a outsiders opinion though so sorry if this may seem stupid for adelaide!

i believe and creating more jobs outside the city for places like the deep south
That is a good idea - should happen other places too, ie north.

Theres already a jobs boom in the northern suburbs, such as the Edinburgh Industrial Park development and the growing defence sector.

Conlon announces plan for $1bn northern road, rail link

THE State Government plans to build a $1 billion road and rail project in Adelaide's northern suburbs, but will not make a final decision for at least two years.

Transport Minister Patrick Conlon announced a Northern Connector project could run parallel to Port Wakefield Rd on the western side in a bid to ease traffic congestion and allow for increased freight.

It would include a new 14km stretch of road and a relocation of the freight rail line which currently runs through the northern suburbs.

Mr Conlon said about 100 properties could be compulsorily acquired to make way for the transport project.

"What you see is not a committed project, the reason we are announcing today this study is because we don't want to scare people and we don't want to surprise people so we have been out doorknocking people who might be affected by this in the future," he said.

"South Australia is set for very exciting times but we must take full advantage of the opportunities that are presenting themselves in the mining and defence industries by investing in projects of this scope.

"We'll glean much more from a completed planning study but the benefits of combining road and rail transport into a dedicated corridor are tremendous."

Mr Conlon ruled out using tolls to fund the roads but said the economic benefits of the road would ensure the road paid for itself.

"This is a vision for a very effective freight management in South Australia," he said.

"It may not be as sexy as a football stadium, but what it does do is grow the wealth of the state and we believe that is a very good thing because you can't have football grounds unless you have something to pay for them.

"These roads are not extravagant, they pay for themselves."

Video: http://publish.vx.roo.com/adelaidenow/videoplayer/?Channel=Local+Videos&ClipId=1383_249147&bitrate=300&Format=wmp

it would be a bit hard to make a freeway through adelaide anyway these day because there is really no room. i no south road and cross road heading to the south east freeway gets congestion easy. the overpasses for the south road road will be good but were is the tunnel starting and ending? public transport is the way to go for adelaide i believe and creating more jobs outside the city for places like the deep south with the inner city workers going to the city so there would be no run down of the city. This is a outsiders opinion though so sorry if this may seem stupid for adelaide!

I guess it would depend on how badly its wanted and how much money the government is prepared to spend, particularly on compulsorily reacquiring land that was previously in government ownership as part of the MATS plan.

Something interesting I found:
http://www.car.asn.au/
This group have been pushing for a north-south freeway for a while now, even if it's tolled. There's a PowerPoint presentation of it at
http://www.car.asn.au/AdelaidesmissingNSLink.ppt