What happened to the Bay Lounge being a place for off topic conversation?

What happened to the Bay Lounge being a place for off topic conversation?

^^I would say it got a bit too heated and was closed for that reason. I've seen it happen with other threads.

When I opened the thread, I wanted it to be a place where we (locals) could talk about sports. arts, jokes, and miscellanea in our city. But it seems that you prefer o talk about politics and stuff. :(

Now we don't have a cool place (our piazza, or main square). It was our coffee shop, but some of you ruined it.

way to go..

Wow it has been deleted and all. How GOPish.

Wow it has been deleted and all. How GOPish.

Yes, so now you can't even read the comments that were made, let alone add new ones! Roark's comment about why he thought Obama was important for the future of the country was classic.

Anyway I'll just post more irrelevant pictures of the Obama rally in his Miami stump. :dunno: :lol:

Someone had a free show.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2968846314_f372cdb88b_b.jpg

The stampede to the parking lots.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2968001451_5db5898b81_b.jpg

People still leaving.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3065/2968846534_da7b31950d_b.jpg

I wonder if anyone hung banners off their balconies.

I didn't see any while I was there, at least on Marina.

Could you imagine if this is what Downtown looked like every night lol? Maybe not this packed, but along those lines...

I agree, but without the political movement. :)

I heard that more people are leaving the suburbs to live near the city because is more cheaper. I heard it on the radio.

^^ Cant wait to be part of that bandwagon. :lol:

That would be great. Just like in the Dust Bowl era.

Roark's comment about why he thought Obama was important for the future of the country was classic. Your misinterpretation and analysis based on your own pre-conceived notions gave my quote more interest than it deserved.
I didn't really say anything more than Wikipedia says about Barrack Obama's place in history.

Seems like I missed some fireworks around here.

Anyway, for all this blather about the 'socialism' boogeyman the fact remains that Obama is proposing a tax rate that already existed prior to the Bush years. It should also be noted that McCain himself OPPOSED the Bush tax cuts as irresponsible---so I guess he must have been a 'radical' at the time as well.

Obama certainly has a gift for speaking. Here is Obama speaking, and this is what he says, “…umm, because the Civil Rights movement became so court focused, ah, I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive, ah, change. Ah, and, ah, in some ways we still suffer from that.” Barrack Obama --- Click Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck)to hear more about what Obama means by Change in his own words
Very interesting. Redistribution of Wealth.
The following quote is from a novelist, and I believe that the last sentence of this quote portends the future of our republic when every warm body votes themselves some of that redistributed wealth.

"The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens… which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it… which for the majority translates as ‘Bread and Circuses.’
‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader—the barbarians enter Rome." — Robert A. Heinlein (To Sail Beyond the Sunset)

Your misinterpretation and analysis based on your own pre-conceived notions gave my quote more interest than it deserved.
I didn't really say anything more than Wikipedia says about Barrack Obama's place in history.

Roark, I paraphrased what you said in the form of a question asking what you meant because of what you seemed to be saying based on your words verbatim, and you didn't say anything. I was asking for clarification, and you just let the question hang. My "misinterpretation and analysis" was not based on any pre-conceived notions, but was based on what you said verbatim and I most certainly asked for clarification. I'm glad I finally got it, sweet man, because I certainly don't have any preconceived notions about you based on your own background or where you are from. That is just another form of prejudice that I try to guard against. And if you were quoting Wikipedia or anybody, you certainly didn't say it.

Could you imagine if this is what Downtown looked like every night lol? Maybe not this packed, but along those lines...

Man that would be cool. You would have to think those condos will fill up someday and the streets will also. I plan on owning a condo with a nice view in downtown in a few years, just waiting for prices (and property taxes) to go a little lower :)

McCain in 2000 in his own words saying that it is ok for wealthy Americans to pay more taxes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2JPbQOHEkY

McCain boasting about voting against the Bush Tax cuts, the very tax cuts he now wants to continue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUDBV6RhQho

Even Tom Brokaw, a friend of the GOP, called McCain out on these two topics. Tom even reminded McCain that even Ronald Reagan raised taxes during tough times.

As for these Socialist remarks, I find amusing how many older American are being scared into voting for McCain with these lies about Scocialism while they all are on Medicaid, Medicare and collecting Social Security Benefits. How easily they forget what those programs are all about. :ohno:

McCain in 2000 in his own words saying that it is ok for wealthy Americans to pay more taxes.What is your point. Wealthy people have always paid more taxes. I haven't read a single poster on this forum say they shouldn't or don't. McCain is correct.
Obama, wants to increase the burden EVEN MORE to "spread it around".

For the undecided people that are thinking about these ideas, be sure to know that McCain voted against Bush's tax cut while we were at at war and running a deficit.
He may support extending the cuts now that it looks like we may be heading into a recession.
Nothing particularly ironic or dumbheaded about the reasoning. I believe we can cut taxes AND spending during wartime. So McCain and I disagree, but that's okay.

Obama voted against the Bush tax cuts, and he wants to increase taxes on business owner's to "spread the wealth around".

Taxing the productive people in this county to incentivize the not-as-productive to vote for their money rather than work for it is disgusting.

These productive people use tax loops, tax shelters and many other ways of getting away from paying taxes.

Are you saying we are not at war right now? Do you believe the war we are currently in did not partly lead to this recession? Do you believe that by staying Iraq spending 10 Billion a week we will balance the budget in four years?

What is your point.
My point is that McCain flips on all the important topics. He will say what he thinks will get him elected.

What is your point. Wealthy people have always paid more taxes. I haven't read a single poster on this forum say they shouldn't or don't. McCain is correct.
Obama, wants to increase the burden EVEN MORE to "spread it around".

For the undecided people that are thinking about these ideas, be sure to know that McCain voted against Bush's tax cut while we were at at war and running a deficit.
He may support extending the cuts now that it looks like we may be heading into a recession.
Nothing particularly ironic or dumbheaded about the reasoning. I believe we can cut taxes AND spending during wartime. So McCain and I disagree, but that's okay.

Obama voted against the Bush tax cuts, and he wants to increase taxes on business owner's to "spread the wealth around".

Taxing the productive people in this county to incentivize the not-as-productive to vote for their money rather than work for it is disgusting.

What a horrible burden for the rich guys. :lol:

My point is that McCain flips on all the important topics. He will say what he thinks will get him elected.
Hmmm...
Well, the examples that you used don't prove your point.
You used two different scenarios, and McCain chose two different paths.
If you used the same scenario, and McCain chose two different paths, then you would have made your point.

Hmmm...
Well, the examples that you used don't prove your point.
You used two different scenarios, and McCain chose two different paths.
If you used the same scenario, and McCain chose two different paths, then you would have made your point.

My friend the other path is the McCain/Palin 2008 ticket.

McCain on Meet the Press
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYsKiA3Myyw

Doesn't it bother anyone else when some one says "My Friend" when they are clearly not your friend. :nuts:

Are you saying we are not at war right now?
No, of course not. There are two wars going on right now. I've acknowledge that when pointing out how illogical it is hire a Junior Senator with ZERO military experience for the Commander in Chief job when there is clearly a more experienced and tested applicant for the job.
Do you believe the war we are currently in did not partly lead to this recession? I love your questions!! No. History will prove that wars have lead to economic expansion, they do not cause the economy to receed.
Do you believe that by staying Iraq spending 10 Billion a week we will balance the budget in four years?Wow...I don't like that question so much because I can't decipher what you are asking. First of all. If we are spending $10B per week, that would be $5.2Trillion per year or 36% of our Country's Gross Domestic Product ($13.8Trillion was 2007's GDP).
We aren't spending $10Billion a week. Your talking point should have been $10B a month. If you were using that figure, the war costs about 9% of our total production.
So, if you are asking, if I believe that we can balance the budget and simultaneously spend 9% of our GDP on a war. I say yes.
If I can reduce my household budget by 10%, then the government should be able to reduce their budget by 9% if necessary.
John McCain didn't believe we could when he voted against the Bush tax cut.
Now that the global economic climate dictates that Americans hold on to as much of their money as they can to whether an economic crisis, he has said that he will fight to keep the tax cuts in place. The question has changed, and so has his answer.

Doesn't it bother anyone else when some one says "My Friend" when they are clearly not your friend. :nuts:No, not at all. It is a characteristic of a well mannered and confident man. Human decency and niceities of that nature tend to be the mark of polite and diplomatic Americans.

No, not at all. It is a characteristic of a well mannered and confident man. Human decency and niceities of that nature tend to be the mark of polite and diplomatic Americans.

Yes and I'm sure calling your wife a C*nt is sign of human decency and confidence.

Roark, you have made up your mind. I've made up my mind and already voted. We are not going to agree. So let just end this now. We will have our day in eight days from now. Good night.

Yes and I'm sure calling your wife a C*nt is sign of human decency and confidence.
Another great post, my friend.

Hmmm...
Well, the examples that you used don't prove your point.
You used two different scenarios, and McCain chose two different paths.
If you used the same scenario, and McCain chose two different paths, then you would have made your point.

Now what? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5-DnNsoA5Y)

Now I see who were the people responsible for closing my thread.

Classy.:(

Now what?[/URL]
Wow, that is incredible. There are excerpts of John McCain from 8 years ago and even further in the past. Can you find some video of Barrack Obama in a leadership role from 8 years ago? I tried...can't find much on him except for that wealth distribution interview.
Has Barrack Obama ever changed his mind about anything important 8 years ago? I can't find the answer.
Better question, has Barrack Obama EVER effected anything important. EVER.
Honestly, Endeavor...if I posted Barrack Obama's name in the Miami Midtown thread 3 years ago would you know who Barrack Obama was?
3 years ago, more people on this forum knew ICE than knew Barrack Obama.
ICE was a slick design and really looked good on paper. Many people were sold on it, but it never lived up to the promise.

I'm still trying to learn about Senator Obama...this is what Wikipedia offers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrack_Obama):
In February 1990, in his second year, he was elected president of the Law Review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the Law Review's staff of eighty editors.[21] Obama's election as the first black president of the Law Review was widely reported and followed by several long, detailed profiles.[21] The publicity from his election as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review led to a publishing contract and advance for a book about race relations.[25] In an effort to recruit him to their faculty, the University of Chicago Law School provided Obama with a fellowship and an office to work on his book.[25] The manuscript was finally published in mid-1995 as Dreams from My Father.[25]

So THAT is it! He was given a pubishing contract, and instead of writing it in one year, it took 5 years. Oh, the adversity! What an amazing American.

Last year he made $4.5 Million from his book, and for the first time in her life Mrs. Obama was proud to be an American. Of course she should be proud, but for the "first time"????

What an inspiration that then Proffessor Obama is. Lazy ass McCain was just laying around for 5 years in a cage getting beat all day after his airplane was shot down during wartime. Then that "old man" served two terms in the House of Representatives and then many as Senator.

Is there more to Obama? Of course...but we are hiding that New Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Party_(USA))stuff.

Like Ive said, experience is a sack of bricks, its fluff, its nada. :okay:

But lets go anyways and vote for the old man because he was a POW. :bash:

I'm still trying to learn about Senator Obama...this is what Wikipedia offers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrack_Obama):

So THAT is it! He was given a pubishing contract, and instead of writing it in one year, it took 5 years. Oh, the adversity! What an amazing American.

Roark, if you look back into history...the trully great ones come out of "nowhere". I'm not guaranteeing he will be the best or even a great president. All I'm saying is he has all the makings of one so far. He has convinced me that he has a plan and a vision of greatness for this country. He also brings a change and spirit that we need at this time. That and McCain is old, more of the same and in my opinion not the better candidate.

What you need to realize about Obama is that he has had all the chips stacked against him throughout his American life and political career. He's black and has a name of middle eastern desent. To overcome these BIG obstacles AND also beat out Hilary to me says alot about his judgement, persistence, saviness, dedication and overall character.

What an inspiration that then Proffessor Obama is. Lazy ass McCain was just laying around for 5 years in a cage getting beat all day after his airplane was shot down during wartime.

You said in another thread, I believe it was the Bayside Lounge, that McCain used to get punched in the head everyday for 5 years. Assuming that didn't cause any permanent damage (let's hope but sometimes it's hard to tell), why does that qualify him to be president? BTW, that war he was a POW of was 40 years ago. So do the math on how old he is now. It's a fact that the mind deteriorates with age, such as the rest of the body.


Is there more to Obama? Of course...but we are hiding that New Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Party_(USA))stuff.

Sorry for having to say this, but that is a dumb comment on your part. He's a democrat. He isn't for some secret party. Or a terrorist. Or whatever other scare tactics conservatives try to use. And even if he was, how would you know? Did you have dinner and sleep over his house last night? You even gave away that you went to wikipedia to find more since you didn't know anything about him. Now all of a sudden you know everything about him and all his secrets? Give me a break. The problem with republican/conservatives is they just can't admit Obama is the better candidate. For many it's race, for others it's greed, let's not kid ourselves anymore. Good night.

Sorry for having to say this, but that is a dumb comment on your part. He's a democrat. He isn't for some secret party. You can look it up. It isn't a secret party at all. The New Party is real, and was important to Obama's ascendancy in Illinois politics.
Fusion is a pretty simple concept. A candidate could run as both a Democrat and a New Party member to signal the candidate was, in fact, a left-leaning candidate, or at least not a center-left DLC type candidate. If the candidate -- let's call him Barack Obama -- received only 500 votes in the Democratic Party against another candidate who received 1000 votes, Obama would clearly not be the nominee. But, if Obama also received 600 votes from the New Party, Obama's New Party votes and Democratic votes would be fused. He would be the Democratic nominee with 1100 votes.
The fusion idea set off a number of third parties, but the New Party was probably the most successful. A March 22, 1998 In These Times article by John Nichols showed just how successful. "After six years, the party has built what is arguably the most sophisticated left-leaning political operation the country has seen since the decline of the Farmer-Labor, Progressive and Non-Partisan League groupings of the early part of the century .... In 1996, it helped Chicago's Danny Davis, a New Party member, win a Democratic congressional primary, thereby assuring his election in the majority-black district .... The threat of losing New Party support, or of the New Party running its own candidates against conservative Democrats, would begin a process of forcing the political process to the left, [Joel] Rogers argued." Obama downplays this. But it helps for Independents to know what kind of alliances and partnerships that Obama has chosen in the past.
Or a terrorist. Or whatever other scare tactics conservatives try to use. And even if he was, how would you know? I have not, nor have I met anyone who has called Obama a terrorist. He has, in fact, chosen to ally himself with an admitted and non-repentant terrorist.
You even gave away that you went to wikipedia to find more since you didn't know anything about him.That's not true. I know a lot about Obama. I was asking the posters on this forum if they had a clue about who Obama was 3 years ago.
Don't be ashamed, if you didn't.
It seems that you think that the New Party is a secret party. It was, in fact, a real party, although ruled unconstitutional.
I don't know everything about Obama, I know more about Obama than most of his supporters. For whatever reason, there isn't much reporting on Obama's past.
The problem with republican/conservatives is they just can't admit Obama is the better candidate. Really, that is the problem with Republicans and Conservatives (Endeavor, <<<<they are two different things)
Obama is a better speaker. He is a sharp dresser. He has out raised McCain's by millions of dollars.
For the job of fundraiser, preacher, maybe trial attorney, he would be my man. He is not my candidate for Commander in Chief.
His comments about the Constitution of the United States in the following interview do trouble me.
Listen closely. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck) He is talking about "redistributive change".
Posting Obama's own words isn't intended to "scare" anyone, it is there to educate people about the applicant for our US President.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck
Redistribution of wealth...
Europeans call it Socialism, Americans call it Welfare, Obama calls it Change.

In a couple of years when Obama (as president) has turned the economy around and restored national pride, all of these will be you:

:bash::ohno::runaway::dunno::scouserd::bow::eek2:
:eek::master::wallbash::hammer::hm::llama::rant::uh::puke::badnews::bleep::no::moods:

And everyone who told you so will be:

:banana::lol::cheers::lock::cheers2::cucumber::cheers1::rock::banana2::righton::nocrook::okay::carrot::tongue2::hahaha::pepper::dance::booze::baeh3:

Can we all just agree on one thing: that Palin is dangerously uninformed and lacks the fundamental knowledge of world history and politics necessary to be VP?

She didn't know what the Bush Doctrine was and she didn't know whether or not the U.S. supports Hezbollah. I don't care if she has been 'filled in' on these issues. The fact that she didn't know them in the first place shows that she's not ready to hold office.

Also, on a side note. I've always wondered why Republicans call themselves 'Federalists' all the time. Is it an abbreviation of Anti-Federalists or are they just unaware of the fact that Federalism and Anti-Federalism are opposites and that they are in fact Anti-Federalists? Just wondering...

Also, on a side note. I've always wondered why Republicans call themselves 'Federalists' all the time. Is it an abbreviation of Anti-Federalists or are they just unaware of the fact that Federalism and Anti-Federalism are opposites and that they are in fact Anti-Federalists? Just wondering... Not sure, but it might date back to the Founding Fathers. This from Thomas Jefferson in the First Inaugural Address
In the Washington, D.C. Wednesday, March 4, 1801
But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle. We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists. If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.

Not sure, but it might date back to the Founding Fathers. This from Thomas Jefferson in the First Inaugural Address
In the Washington, D.C. Wednesday, March 4, 1801

Good find. I think I figured it out. It actually has nothing to do with the Federalist or Anti-Federalist parties. They are actually referring to "New Federalism" which is essentially the opposite of traditional Federalism. Can't find any good sources though.

HAHA the title of this thread made me laugh. "Miami politics: keep it clean" isn't that an oxymoron, that is Miami politics being "clean".

I would say Obama has been pretty well-known nationally since his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic Convention, so the "3 year" thing isn't really accurate.

Either way, it's difficult to ascertain why that would be such an important factor. In truth, MANY people who went on to be president were relatively "unknown" before being thrust into the national spotlight. Clinton was an obscure southern governor..."W" was known as much for being a presiden't son and owner of the Texas Rangers as anything substantial...JFK was a junior senator with an extremely thin resume (sound familiar?)...nobody outside of Georgia had ever heard of Jimmy Carter before the presidential primaries...and even a well-known guy like Reagan was widely regarded as an extremist fringe candidate until finally being elected.

If simple longetivity in Washington politics was essential to making a good president then why was a career insider like Ford so ineffective? Why did LBJ run his presidency aground with mistake after mistake in Vietnam?

It means virtually nothing. The best presidents are generally the ones with the best support staff and the ability to reach consensus through the strength of their ideas and a strong ability to communicate them forcefully.

I would say Obama has been pretty well-known nationally since his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic Convention, so the "3 year" thing isn't really accurate.

Either way, it's difficult to ascertain why that would be such an important factor. In truth, MANY people who went on the be president were relatively "unknown" before being thrust into the national spotlight. Clinton was an obscure southern governor..."W" was known as much for being a presiden't son and owner of the Texas Rangers as anything substantial...JFK was a junior senator with an extremely thin resume (sound familiar?)...nobody outside of Georgia had ever heard of Jimmy Carter before the presidential primaries...and even a well-known guy like Reagan was widely regarded as an extremist fringe candidate until finally being elected.
If simple longetivity in Washington politics was essential to making a good president then why was a career insider like Ford so ineffective? Why did LBJ run his presidency aground with mistake after mistake in Vietnam?

It means virtually nothing. The best presidents are generally the ones with the best support staff and the ability to reach consensus through the strength of their ideas and a strong ability to communicate them forcefully.

And Ronald Reagan was a mediocre actor and president of the Screen Actors Guild before becoming governor of California. Bette Davis: "Little Ronnie Reagan we called him. Well, in all honesty, he did not make a great mark as an actor. No, he was just a nice little contract player, you know. One does sit around and say anything can happen in America. There is no question about it."

...waiting for the Karl Rove talking point that fits your post. I think the appropriate one is in chapter 7 page 89. Oh wait this manual is the '04 one, oops.

...waiting for the Karl Rove talking point that fits your post. I think the appropriate one is in chapter 7 page 89. Oh wait this manual is the '04 one, oops.

I'm sure there has to be a reference to Bette Davis quotes in there somewhere. For instance, in describing my place: "What a dump!" And there is her favorite from Cabin in the Cotton: I'd love to kiss ya, but I just washed my hair."

And there is her favorite from Cabin in the Cotton: I'd love to kiss ya, but I just washed my hair."

That is one hell of a line. What a turn on that would be if a woman told me that.

Taxing the productive people in this county to incentivize the not-as-productive to vote for their money rather than work for it is disgusting.


We can finally agree on something.

I can honestly say though that while a little contempt for the other party is natural and maybe healthy.............the all out villification of the Republican party reveals how powerful propoganda can really be.

I am a conservative, but I have the ability to see the other party's side on some issues. I dont agree with republican viewpoints on roe v wade for example. I don't see any of this open mindedness from democrats at all. They have decided they hate George W Bush and everything else republican. Not a prudent mentality in my opinion.

It looks good for Obama, but if McCain happens to win I hope Alec Baldwin finally decides to move to Canada and it would be nice if he takes Sean Penn with him. Who do these guys honestly think they are? lol

We can finally agree on something.

I can honestly say though that while a little contempt for the other party is natural and maybe healthy.............the all out villification of the Republican party reveals how powerful propoganda can really be.

I am a conservative, but I have the ability to see the other party's side on some issues. I dont agree with republican viewpoints on roe v wade for example. I don't see any of this open mindedness from democrats at all. They have decided they hate George W Bush and everything else republican. Not a prudent mentality in my opinion.

It looks good for Obama, but if McCain happens to win I hope Alec Baldwin finally decides to move to Canada and it would be nice if he takes Sean Penn with him. Who do these guys honestly think they are? lol

Dude Sean Penn has an Oscar. Didn't you know that gives him the power to bitch about anything??

Is it true that they take their Oscars everywhere they go? That's lame.

I don't see any of this open mindedness from democrats at all. They have decided they hate George W Bush and everything else republican. Not a prudent mentality in my opinion.

What democrats do you speak of, Mike? As I said on the thread that got deleted, even though I'm a registered democrat, I have not always voted for a democrat. I vote for the person and whatever I think is best for the country or the situation at hand. As you do yourself, I have an abillity to see both sides of an issue which makes me a lot like my zodiac sign in truth, Libra. I don't hate George W. Bush or everything else republican because I don't hate anybody. And while I don't shy away from a liberal label, I'm more of a moderate liberal and you might be surprised at some of my personal views and opinions that you haven't yet heard.

What open-mindedness and what democrats do you speak of, Mike? As I said on the thread that got deleted, even though I'm a registered democrat, I have not always voted for a democrat. I vote for the person and whatever I think is best for the country or the situation at hand. As you do yourself, I have an abillity to see both sides of an issue which makes me a lot like my zodiac sign in truth, Libra. I don't hate George W. Bush or everything else republican because I don't hate anybody. And while I don't shy away from a liberal label, I'm more of a moderate liberal and you might be surprised at some of my personal views and opinions that you haven't yet heard.


Yea but do you like 'happy' people?

BTW, does anyone believe in the zodiac/astrological signs thing? Just curious, I honestly haven't figured that one out yet.

Those are bunch of lies. IMHO.

Yeah, but do you like 'happy' people? BTW, does anyone believe in the zodiac/astrological signs thing? Just curious, I honestly haven't figured that one out yet.

I really don't believe in astrology because I think it creates another kind prejudice giving people preconceived ideas about another person based on their zodiac sign when those ideas may not necessarily be true. I just think I happen to be a lot like the positive attributes of my zodiac sign. And yes, I would like for all people to be happy.

No offense but I really hate this thread.

George Carlin on politics...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKguI0NFek

No offense but I really hate this thread.

Well, that's an easy problem to solve. You simply stop contributing to it or looking in on it.

Looks like this thread gives people the heat.

Looks like this thread gives people the heat.

Well, I wish some of them would get the heat to do what you just did on a certain other thread! I think some team work might be in order here!

Well, I wish some of them would get the heat to do what you just did on a certain other thread! I think some team work might be in order here!

Seriously, I'm running into a lot of European bias without much support from the home team. I'm not sure if it's jealousy or what, but I would put it aside at the moment for Miami.

I'm not only member of the Miami forum, I go to the Israeli, Chinse, zCzech and others and I see that they help each other a lot. That's something I never see here. I have to say the Europeans and the hispanics are the most unified people I've seen here. If some Mexican forumer opens a thread in a in't forum, you can not say bad things because you'll have dozens ofMexican forumers defending the thread. The same goes for the others. I always end up being the only Miami , sometimes American, forumer in the int' forums defending Miami's name. :( The only American city who help themselves are the forumers from Atlanta and Dallas, they are annoying as hell, but we surely have to learn from them.

I'm not only member of the Miami forum, I go to the Israeli, Chinse, zCzech and others and I see that they help each other a lot. That's something I never see here. I have to say the Europeans and the hispanics are the most unified people I've seen here. If some Mexican forumer opens a thread in a in't forum, you can not say bad things because you'll have dozens ofMexican forumers defending the thread. The same goes for the others. I always end up being the only Miami , sometimes American, forumer in the int' forums defending Miami's name. :( The only American city who help themselves are the forumers from Atlanta and Dallas, they are annoying as hell, but we surely have to learn from them.

I know I've been as annoying as hell on other threads defending Miami, so I've decided for the most part to stick to my own photo threads, and there is one in particular where you guys could really help a lot if you would just do what Fidel just did. Don't just leave me hanging out there by myself like some defenseless quarterback having to take the hits all the time. This is a very simple thing to do and nobody even has to know who you are.

I'm not only member of the Miami forum, I go to the Israeli, Chinse, zCzech


can you speak chinese and czech ?

I know I've been as annoying as hell on other threads defending Miami, so I've decided for the most part to stick to my own photo threads, and there is one in particular where you guys could really help a lot if you would just do what Fidel just did. Don't just leave me hanging out there by myself like some defenseless quarterback having to take the hits all the time. This is a very simple thing to do and nobody even has to know who you are.

To be honest, I don't find it necessary to go to other forums and debate with people who probably never been to Miami about how good the city is. All I would do, if anything, is say it's a badass place and provide photos (remember photos are worth a 1,000 words), but I'm not gonna fight with someone I don't know. For all I know it could be a 12 year old just wanting to get me upset. Again, in my opinion, best thing to do is drop photos and comments, but not argue with clowns.

Obama and Biden are in Sunrise right now and will hold an even at the Bank Antlantic Center at 4:30. And laetr tonight Obama will join Bill Clinton in Orlando after Obama's big infomercial tonight. :okay:

To be honest, I don't find it necessary to go to other forums and debate with people who probably never been to Miami about how good the city is. All I would do, if anything, is say it's a badass place and provide photos (remember photos are worth a 1,000 words), but I'm not gonna fight with someone I don't know. For all I know it could be a 12 year old just wanting to get me upset. Again, in my opinion, best thing to do is drop photos and comments, but not argue with clowns.

You quoted me, but it's not like you read what I said. I don't debate with people anymore. I just post photos. I know how juvenile some of the threads can be, literally. What I'm saying is how I think you could help bring more positive attention and interest to the city by doing what Fidel did. You don't have to argue, fight, or debate with anybody! Nobody even needs to know who you are in the particular forum I speak of, but no matter. I'll just keep posting pictures to help bring more positive attention and interest to the city myself whereby I might help more projects make it out of the ground whether I get any support from this forum or not.

What democrats do you speak of, Mike? As I said on the thread that got deleted, even though I'm a registered democrat, I have not always voted for a democrat. I vote for the person and whatever I think is best for the country or the situation at hand. As you do yourself, I have an abillity to see both sides of an issue which makes me a lot like my zodiac sign in truth, Libra. I don't hate George W. Bush or everything else republican because I don't hate anybody. And while I don't shy away from a liberal label, I'm more of a moderate liberal and you might be surprised at some of my personal views and opinions that you haven't yet heard.

Even republicans hate Bush. Why else would McCain try to distance himself from him at the last minute?

I also find it funny that people think that just because they have more money it makes them harder workers and better people. I work at Wal-Mart to pay for college, I have to pay taxes, I find it funny that Wal-Mart doesnt however.

I find it funny that Wal-Mart doesnt however.

What retail outfit, large or small, does?

You could raise their "taxes" through the roof, you could penalize them to hell, and they'd still pass it on to the consumer...

And laetr tonight Obama will join Bill Clinton in Orlando after Obama's big infomercial tonight. :okay:

You mean his speech that will be nothing short of a premature (and uncautiously overconfident) inaugural?

You mean his speech that will be nothing short of a premature (and uncautiously overconfident) inaugural?

lol, one of the best parts of these elections is seeing how they make fun of shit like that on Saturday Night Live.

I would say Obama has been pretty well-known nationally since his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic Convention, so the "3 year" thing isn't really accurate. Well known is subjective. Less than 1 out of 10 people watched the Dem. Convention for the whole week, much less for the keynote speaker.

Political junkies would know that Barrack Obama defeated the Black Republican Presidential hopeful for his US Senate seat. An honest poll of Obama supporters (and especially posting on this site) probably didn't even know that there was a Black Republican running for the Presidential Nomination, let alone know his name. Of course, they can probably find it on Wikipedia!

To paraphrase the discussion:
Barrack Supporter: I haven't heard one reason why to vote for McCain.
Me: #1 There are two wars going on, Barrack Obama is a junior Senator with Zero Militarty experience while McCain has learned from decades in government and does have Military experience.
and it went on and on.

So, being well known doesn't really matter much. I do believe that that the right experience does matter in many jobs: Airplane pilot, Doctor, and Commander in Chief are some of them.

Regardless, my point was specific to a number of posters here that were surprised about some of the things in Obama's political career.
Not whether he was known as in popularity.
Like his affiliation with The New Party and his September 6, 2001 radio interview where he exlpains his views on wealth redistribution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaCWApFl1jg

I also find it funny that people think that just because they have more money it makes them harder workers and better people.What do you mean funny, funny how?:)
As a poor kid in a Democrat household, I was brought up to believe that that wealthy people think they are better or harder workers. Union parents will do that.
I left town to work in a summer resort island out east and met many wealthy people. People that lived in $10M plus mansions (pricey in 1992) and drove Jeep Cherokees and were as nice as the people back home.
Rich people were impressed that I was working my ass off to pay for college because my parents couldn't afford it. They were encouraging with their words and supportive with their advice. From that summer, I learned that they were Americans like us, and rather than resent the wealthy as my parents had taught, I chose not to be poor. It was one of the important lessons learned that summer.
Sitting in on the Democratic National Committee meetings is another story.
I work at Wal-Mart to pay for college, I have to pay taxes, I find it funny that Wal-Mart doesnt however. Come on, you don't believe that Wal Mart doesn't pay any taxes? Who told you that!??
According to the 2007 audited Annual Report, Wal-Mart paid an effective tax rate of 33.6% and paid about $6,276,000,000 in taxes.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you paid less than $6.2 Billion in taxes in 2007.
Interestingly, Exxon paid $30 Billion in 2007. Yes, $30,000,000,000. That is OVER $82 Million per day.

How nice rich people are has nothing to do with this election. I for one understand that. I have outlined why I believe Obama is the better choice. Had this been the 2000 election when the economy was very very strong and the middle class was not undergoing a financial crisis, I would most probably vote republican (assuming the republican candidate wasn't far worse than the other(s)). However, this is 2008 and we are under much different circumstances. I think the middle class needs help. Obama is the better choice in that regard.

As far as military and war. I'm confident Obama can make the decisions that are already recommended to him. I don't think military experience is a big deal for a president. As I've said before history proves this. All the president has to do is listen to his advisors and the pentagon. The president doesn't have to do any war planning or strategy. That's what the Generals are for. All the president does is 'sign off' on what they recommend. At the end of the day the pentagon decides what is best with regard to military. Please don't be so naive Roark. You can be sure if the president was a big liability in this regard, well, he won't be around long.

Wal-Mart shouldn't be getting any tax breaks.

John McCain's own words were that he will do what ever General Patreus recommends. A Commander In Chief is only as good as the people he is surrounded by. How in the hell did George Bush make it because he had people around him that knew what they were doing. Unfortunately what they were doing was fu@king this country up, as seen by the distance that McCain continuously attempts to place between himself and W.

I simply love how McCain claims he will even stand up to his own party. So then how, pardon my AMERICAN, FUCK will he get anything done if he goes against the Democrats and the Republicans? Is going to go COMMUNIST? Or will it be a total military rule?

You mean his speech that will be nothing short of a premature (and uncautiously overconfident) inaugural?

I must have missed when candidates were not allowed to speak to the public. :nuts:

Obama adressed the crowd repeatedly as Sunrise. I know the arena is in Sunrise but he was speaking to 20K as if they all came from Sunrise and Sunrise is some major town in South Florida. Even national newscasts were talking about Obama speaking to the South Florida town of Sunrise. South Florida would have been more appropiate, if not Florida.
Anyways tonight Obama will top off a big day with a rally in Kissimmee at 11pm with Bill Clinton. :)

What do you mean funny, funny how?:)
As a poor kid in a Democrat household, I was brought up to believe that that wealthy people think they are better or harder workers. Union parents will do that.
I left town to work in a summer resort island out east and met many wealthy people. People that lived in $10M plus mansions (pricey in 1992) and drove Jeep Cherokees and were as nice as the people back home.
Rich people were impressed that I was working my ass off to pay for college because my parents couldn't afford it. They were encouraging with their words and supportive with their advice. From that summer, I learned that they were Americans like us, and rather than resent the wealthy as my parents had taught, I chose not to be poor. It was one of the important lessons learned that summer.
Sitting in on the Democratic National Committee meetings is another story.
Come on, you don't believe that Wal Mart doesn't pay any taxes? Who told you that!??
According to the 2007 audited Annual Report, Wal-Mart paid an effective tax rate of 33.6% and paid about $6,276,000,000 in taxes.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you paid less than $6.2 Billion in taxes in 2007.
Interestingly, Exxon paid $30 Billion in 2007. Yes, $30,000,000,000. That is OVER $82 Million per day.

No, I paid like 8 billion in taxes at least, come on. Seriously though I guess I probably jumped at that rumor too quick, though I’m sure these big corporations get away with a lot of stuff through loop holes. And I really disagree with McCain’s stance that raising taxes for the rich will make large corporations want to move to Ireland instead of The U.S.A:nuts:

I don’t think all rich people are snobby arrogant people and I don’t doubt that alot of rich people are incredibly hard workers, I just doubt that all incredibly hard workers are rich. However a few years ago I wouldnt have had to work my way through college. Its not like I grew up poor or anything, my family is in the same situation that a lot of America is in right now, and guess what McCain, we all used to be Joe the f*ck*** plumber.

I really don’t understand tax hikes and tax cuts though, is there a reason why everyone doesn’t pay the same percentage, wouldn’t that even everything out?

Trying really hard to stay out of the political discussion... Let's just say there was nothing hopeful about Alan Keyes. You're blowing smoke Roark.

My own contribution - a yummy downtown picture

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/2985154063_1ca21105e6_b.jpg

I’m sure these big corporations get away with a lot of stuff through loop holes.

They do and will continue to. They can afford to hire the best accountants. If they have to they will pass it on to the consumer. I think the increase in large corp taxes will also force these companies to be more efficient. Most products are shipped by truck in this country. So, this should help put pressure on lower fuel costs or looking into alternate fuels. These companies don't want their overhead to increase on the top (shipping) AND bottom lines (taxes). And if the Teamsters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teamsters#The_rise.2C_fall_and_disappearance_of_Jimmy_Hoffa) union gets involved, even more pressure on fuel costs.

And I really disagree with McCain’s stance that raising taxes for the rich will make large corporations want to move to Ireland instead of The U.S.A:nuts:

That ain't going to happen. Even with higher taxes (which they will minimize by exploiting new loopholes), it's not in their best business interest to move. Obama will also give these companies incentives and tax breaks for keeping jobs in the USA, so it will balance out some with the tax increase making it even less worthy to leave.

I really don’t understand tax hikes and tax cuts though, is there a reason why everyone doesn’t pay the same percentage, wouldn’t that even everything out?

That's one of the things I don't understand about the tax code either. And this isn't something that applies to only one party, although the democratic party is a bit more skewed. I think everyone should pay the same percentage. Apparently, there has to be a reason for it. My guess is that tax revenue wouldn't be sufficient if it was that way. Or it would disrupt the balance of the economy since interest rates are also skewed. Or a combination of both. Or maybe the gov't is bending the rich over?? But shouldn't the rich know better? Or maybe the gov't knows the rich will be more capable of being evasive so they offset it?? Who knows. I do know we need to cut spending. It's out of control. Maybe if we can do that then maybe we can cut taxes for EVERYONE.

That sure is a yummy pic brickell.

I remember Mr. Keys. I always wondered why he didnt get as much attention as Obama.

where are my nocturnal friends?

Seriously though I guess I probably jumped at that rumor too quick, though I’m sure these big corporations get away with a lot of stuff through loop holes.
Of course. Politicians call them loopholes when they are against it. The people that are getting stung call it interpretation of the existing law.
Seriously.
Think about it with an open mind.
Tax. Taxing. One common definition of tax is
to make onerous and rigorous demands onOkay, so if Wal Mart has to pay BILLLIONS of dollars of THEIR money, and they employ more people try to save some of their money I don't think it's so nefarious.

If Will, his wife, and neighbor couple went on a trip to the Bahamas, Both families make $60,000 in household income and neither family pays any Income tax in this simplification. Will bought a neckless for $5 on that vacation and came back to the USA and sold it for $20 to a local store. With the same 36% effective tax rate like WalMart has. Will has $15 profit (forget about expenses for this simpification) and has to give $5.40 to the goverment.
The government says, Will you are great American, we appreciate your thinking and eye for a good business deal...you take $9.60 for your efforts, and for all the government is doing for you we will take $5.40 of your profit.
His neighbor and the neighbors wife didn't even think to do that. Instead, they continue to work at their jobs jobs as always.
Now, Will has noticed that millions of people want these necklaces, and he goes through the effort to get a bank loan, takes a risk with his personal gaurantee, and buys one million of the necklaces. T
he government in 2008 wants $5.4 MILLION!! Will is a little pissed.
Wouldn't you be? Will still uses the same roads as his neighbors, he still only has one kid in school using up the bus and the services like his neighbors.
Meanwhile, the neighbors have not produced or provided a single thing extra to society than they did before the trip. They pay Zero, Will pays $5.4 Million.
Will has employed several College kids to help out with his extra demand in the summer. He is buying a warehouse a delivery truck. The neighbors haven't really done much but order more satellite channels so they can sit on their arses.
If will expenses a few things, and uses the current legal framework to keep some of HIS MONEY, I don't think that is bad. You see, it is Will's money. Not the government's money. Will had the idea. Will made the effort. Will executed. He should pay some, but if he works within the law should he be chastized for trying to hold on to his money?
When I was a kid, I used to have an healthy envy for entrepenuers and people that created and produced things. They were the ones that made it. People would move from socialist countries to live the American Dream. Some people would even swim or float on makeshift rafts to live the American Dream.And I really disagree with McCain’s stance that raising taxes for the rich will make large corporations want to move to Ireland instead of The U.S.A Taxes on small businesses...if you consider the burden that labor exacts on human resources it is no wonder that companies outsource their call center work to India. If you make "onerous and rigerous demands on" the human input to a corporate model, the business has a decision to make...if the telecomunications are the same, you look to minimize the less taxing of the input choices.
I don’t think all rich people are snobby arrogant people and I don’t doubt that alot of rich people are incredibly hard workers, I just doubt that all incredibly hard workers are rich.Oh you are absolutely correct! Not all...
I used to work construction in the summertime. Curb and Gutter crew, lifting metal forms and leveling the ground. Getting sunburned, dehydrated, cut and scared for 12 + hours a day.
I worked hard, much harder than any of my friends did. The next summer was the ephiphany summer. I worked hard that summer too, but what changed was my attitude.
Daytime construction, nighttime waiting tables. Meeting rich people that appreciated hard working Americans was inspirational.
Back then, hard work, drive, ambition, a grain of intelligence, and sticktoitiveness was priceless.
I don't resent my parents, I don't resent Bill Clinton, and I don't resent John McCain. You work, you produce, and that's it.
However a few years ago I wouldnt have had to work my way through college. Its not like I grew up poor or anything, my family is in the same situation that a lot of America is in right now, and guess what McCain, we all used to be Joe the f*ck*** plumber. Really? I've never won any popularity contests on this forum, but that you don't think you sholuld "work your way through college" is disgusting!
Man, I hope I'm not in the minority on this one, or this Change is worse than I thought.
You have the OPPORTUNITY to go to college!!! And you are resentful that you have to work for it??? Do you want it for free? What else, free health care, free foot massages, free food, free beer, free WHAT?!?!?
I really don’t understand tax hikes and tax cuts though, is there a reason why everyone doesn’t pay the same percentage, wouldn’t that even everything out? Sorry to rant. It IS very important to understand taxes. Government provides services and you pay for them through the taxes you pay. What is "fair" is what the discussion is all about. Fair is subjective.
When government gets really big, it is hard to even know if you are getting what you pay for.
This post is run on a lot but Google the phrase "regressive taxation" and I'm sure their is the primer you are looking for.

Of course. Politicians call them loopholes when they are against it. The people that are getting stung call it interpretation of the existing law.

Duh! What is your point here?

Okay, so if Wal Mart has to pay BILLLIONS of dollars of THEIR money, and they employ more people try to save some of their money I don't think it's so nefarious.

If Will, his wife, and neighbor couple went on a trip to the Bahamas, Both families make $60,000 in household income and neither family pays any Income tax in this simplification. Will bought a neckless for $5 on that vacation and came back to the USA and sold it for $20 to a local store. With the same 36% effective tax rate like WalMart has. Will has $15 profit (forget about expenses for this simpification) and has to give $5.40 to the goverment.
The government says, Will you are great American, we appreciate your thinking and eye for a good business deal...you take $9.60 for your efforts, and for all the government is doing for you we will take $5.40 of your profit.
His neighbor and the neighbors wife didn't even think to do that. Instead, they continue to work at their jobs jobs as always.
Now, Will has noticed that millions of people want these necklaces, and he goes through the effort to get a bank loan, takes a risk with his personal gaurantee, and buys one million of the necklaces. T
he government in 2008 wants $5.4 MILLION!! Will is a little pissed.
Wouldn't you be? Will still uses the same roads as his neighbors, he still only has one kid in school using up the bus and the services like his neighbors.
Meanwhile, the neighbors have not produced or provided a single thing extra to society than they did before the trip. They pay Zero, Will pays $5.4 Million.
Will has employed several College kids to help out with his extra demand in the summer. He is buying a warehouse a delivery truck. The neighbors haven't really done much but order more satellite channels so they can sit on their arses.
If will expenses a few things, and uses the current legal framework to keep some of HIS MONEY, I don't think that is bad. You see, it is Will's money. Not the government's money. Will had the idea. Will made the effort. Will executed. He should pay some, but if he works within the law should he be chastized for trying to hold on to his money?

First of all, that is one creative example. Was it Will Smith? Anyway, seriously now, I understand your point about Will having to pay $5.4 million in taxes, but you fail to mention that he is profiting $9.6 million. With that money he can buy quite a few things that his neighbors who sit on their "arse" can't. Chances are they won't be neighbors very much longer either. It has become obvious Roark that you are against the increase in taxes for the rich because of the welfare system. See one of the misconceptions of welfare is that it doesn't provide someone an extravagant life. If you want a Porsche (or any nice expensive car) you are going to have to work for it. Welfare isn't taking a rich man's money and giving it to someone else so they can pay for their Porsche, or half a million dollar home. Truth is, the people who depend on welfare have no ambition to work hard. Take them off welfare and they will resort to crime. I say give them their bread crumbs and let them stay satisfied. This is where education comes into play. For people like us who want nice things, that is all the motivation we need. Now what we need to make sure is that the money goes to where it's supposed to and not politicians or their friends pockets. We will never completely stop corruption, but we sure can reduce it if we monitor the spending better and increase the consequences.

As I've said before, I don't like the graduated tax system. I think everyone should pay the same percentage regardless of how much they make. I don't know the reason behind having a graduated tax system. Perhaps, it is necessary in order to get the amount of revenue the gov't needs. Or perhaps there is some economic class balancing reason. However, neither candidate has proposed to change this. I know Obama's tax setup is more skewed, but I think all the other factors about him outweigh McCain. I'm also going to contradict myself here, but even though I'm against the skewed tax system overall, I think during this upcoming presidential term we need this to help the middle class. Once we get things back on track, I think an even tax system would be fairest.

When I was a kid, I used to have an healthy envy for entrepenuers and people that created and produced things. They were the ones that made it. People would move from socialist countries to live the American Dream. Some people would even swim or float on makeshift rafts to live the American Dream. Taxes on small businesses...if you consider the burden that labor exacts on human resources it is no wonder that companies outsource their call center work to India. If you make "onerous and rigerous demands on" the human input to a corporate model, the business has a decision to make...if the telecomunications are the same, you look to minimize the less taxing of the input choices.
Oh you are absolutely correct! Not all...
I used to work construction in the summertime. Curb and Gutter crew, lifting metal forms and leveling the ground. Getting sunburned, dehydrated, cut and scared for 12 + hours a day.
I worked hard, much harder than any of my friends did. The next summer was the ephiphany summer. I worked hard that summer too, but what changed was my attitude.
Daytime construction, nighttime waiting tables. Meeting rich people that appreciated hard working Americans was inspirational.
Back then, hard work, drive, ambition, a grain of intelligence, and sticktoitiveness was priceless.
I don't resent my parents, I don't resent Bill Clinton, and I don't resent John McCain. You work, you produce, and that's it.
Really? I've never won any popularity contests on this forum, but that you don't think you sholuld "work your way through college" is disgusting!
Man, I hope I'm not in the minority on this one, or this Change is worse than I thought.
You have the OPPORTUNITY to go to college!!! And you are resentful that you have to work for it??? Do you want it for free? What else, free health care, free foot massages, free food, free beer, free WHAT?!?!?
Sorry to rant. It IS very important to understand taxes. Government provides services and you pay for them through the taxes you pay. What is "fair" is what the discussion is all about. Fair is subjective.
When government gets really big, it is hard to even know if you are getting what you pay for.
This post is run on a lot but Google the phrase "regressive taxation" and I'm sure their is the primer you are looking for.

What is your point here? We all know what the American dream is about. No need to tell us about your life and how you worked hard to fulfill the American dream. And the gov't isn't going to start paying for foot massages or beer. What kind of dumb thing is that to say?? This is exactly what I don't like about you man. You talk to people like you know more than they do. Well you don't. Maybe when it comes to women's clothing you do, but not on everything. The whole issue in this country is that people are losing their jobs at an alarming rate. With that comes foreclosures since people cannot pay for their homes. Then that snowballs into property values dropping. Then all of it combines into no one being able to invest or unwilling (if they are able) because of the uncertainty. We need to help the middle class and we need to help NOW so this doesn'tget much worse, which it will if we don't do something NOW. Obama gets it. He has laid out his plan and solution to the crisis much better than McCain has. McCain is more like the guy who did nothing to prevent the situation we are now in.

Edit: Anyone who can't afford college should have to work to pay for it, but I don't see anything wrong with giving a little help to someone who really needs and has earned it, if its available. What I mean by earned is they get good grades and are employed but can't afford the full price of tuition. To me money spent on that type of trying hard individual for assistance in education is money well spent.

Yahoo!News http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081030/earns_exxon_mobil.html
Assiociated Press
Exxon Mobil posts biggest US quarterly profit ever
Thursday October 30, 12:23 pm ET
By John Porretto, AP Business Writer
Exxon Mobil shatters own record for largest profit from operations by a US corporation.

So Exxon Mobile made $14.83 Billion in 3Q. Nowhere in the AP story do you see the record amount of taxes they paid.

Exxon Mobile Pays Biggest Quarterly Tax Bill Ever, $32,510,000.

Yahoo!News http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081030/earns_exxon_mobil.html
Assiociated Press
Exxon Mobil posts biggest US quarterly profit ever
Thursday October 30, 12:23 pm ET
By John Porretto, AP Business Writer
Exxon Mobil shatters own record for largest profit from operations by a US corporation.

So Exxon Mobile made $14.83 Billion in 3Q. Nowhere in the AP story do you see the record amount of taxes they paid.

Exxon Mobile Pays Biggest Quarterly Tax Bill Ever, $32,510,000.

That's alot of money for you, not Exxon. Thanks for making my point.

That's alot of money for you, not Exxon.
That IS a lot of money for Exxon Mobile. It is a record amount of money for Exxon Mobile, it's thousands of employees, and it's thousands of shareholders (owners).

Take a look at the once great State of Michigan if you want a glimpse of what happens when you increase the already enormous tax burden on businesses. Businesses leave the taxed jurisdiction and the middle class lose their jobs.
Conversely, if you are a state that courts business with lower tax burdens, you will have more business migration, more job creation and a better deal for all Americans. Creating opportunity for all people, rather than welfare for more people.
The Luxury Tax idea gives further guidance. We can tax those rich people 14% on their yachts, airplanes, and Bentley's.
We tried it. The rich stopped buying yachts and such, and the painter in the boatyard lost his job.
Despite what has been said in the past, and despite what the politician mantra of the day is, raising tax rates doesn't help the middle class.
Lowering taxes allows for business expansion, job creation, and more opportunity for all. That is the idea that McCain is standing by.

Obama is for a Welfare state where a big government takes care of it's babies, and administers every facet of their lives so that people are dependent on the government for everything.
McCain is for a Capitalist state where government allows for individuals success while helping those that truly can't help themselves. Whether McCain can shrink the size of the government monster remains to be seen, but at least he hasn't hung his hat on expanding the Welfare state.

That IS a lot of money for Exxon Mobile. It is a record amount of money for Exxon Mobile, it's thousands of employees, and it's thousands of shareholders (owners).

What do you mean it's alot of money for it's employess and shareholders? Are you talking about the tax or revenue? :) And that is not alot of money for Exxon. $14.3 billion versus $32 million. Come on Roark, I know you're smarter than this.

Take a look at the once great State of Michigan if you want a glimpse of what happens when you increase the already enormous tax burden on businesses. Businesses leave the taxed jurisdiction and the middle class lose their jobs.
Conversely, if you are a state that courts business with lower tax burdens, you will have more business migration, more job creation and a better deal for all Americans. Creating opportunity for all people, rather than welfare for more people.

First, it's a little different when you talk about from state to state migration as opposed to leaving the USA. Secondly, Obama's plan calls for tax breaks and incentives for creating jobs here and penalties for outsourcing. Thirdly, we have already discussed how the middle class will benefit and be able to purchase the necessary products these large corp.'s produce and how the large corp's will most likely pass the cost on to the consumer anyway. What they don't pass on they will get it back by exploiting new loopholes. Think of all the work accountants will now have!

Going back to state to state migration...did you know Wyoming has some of the best incentives to move there. They will even help pay for your mortgage. You know why? Because who the hell wants to live in Wyoming?!! You can apply this same principle to countries.

The Luxury Tax idea gives further guidance. We can tax those rich people 14% on their yachts, airplanes, and Bentley's.
We tried it. The rich stopped buying yachts and such, and the painter in the boatyard lost his job.

HAAA! What a laugher that was. The rich will never stop buying their expensive little toys because of taxes...trust me. That was a nice little story however. What was the painter in the boat yards name btw? Was it Joe also?

Despite what has been said in the past, and despite what the politician mantra of the day is, raising tax rates doesn't help the middle class.
Lowering taxes allows for business expansion, job creation, and more opportunity for all. That is the idea that McCain is standing by.

No despites here buddy. We can't conveniently forget what has been said or done in the past. What has happened in the last 8 years has FAILED. We've had failed policies that were based on tax cuts for big companies and the rich. We need to shift this back the other way, at least for the time being.

Obama is for a Welfare state where a big government takes care of it's babies, and administers every facet of their lives so that people are dependent on the government for everything.

Are you saying the government wants to baby sit? Again, any one who wants something nice has to work for it just like they have had to under any other president. And tax relief for the lower-middle class by way of eliminating the 8 years of tax breaks on the rich, will help stimulate the economy and small business.

McCain is for a Capitalist state where government allows for individuals success while helping those that truly can't help themselves. Whether McCain can shrink the size of the government monster remains to be seen, but at least he hasn't hung his hat on expanding the Welfare state.

"Government monster"...Funny you should call it that since its been under Bush the last 8 years. News flash: McCain is more of Bush. By the way, you haven't spoken about the budget deficit. Why don't you address that issue Roark? Do you think McCain's policy will reduce this growing figure? If so, why and do you think more than Obama's policy? Keep in mind McCain wants to continue spending $10B a month in Iraq. BTW, that's more than double Exxon's record quarterly revenue.

Roark do you approve of windfall profit taxes?

Don't take the bait. It's a red herring the size of a goliath grouper. That tax bill was under a business friendly administration. Roark now seems to be advocating for no taxes at all. It also ignores the subsidizes that the US govt puts out to make that profit possible. But corporate welfare seems to just fine to many of these "free marketers".

What do you mean it's alot of money for it's employess and shareholders? Are you talking about the tax or revenue? :) And that is not alot of money for Exxon. $14.3 billion versus $32 million. Come on Roark, I know you're smarter than this.
Is it too much to ask that you stick to ideas rather than make direct personal comments and challenges?
It's great that you want to single me out and spend so much of your energy thinking about me, but really, my girlfriend gets jealous when people get so interested in me personally.
I'd rather keep the conversation intellectual and continue a dialouge with the ideas and comments by Florida Will.

But if you are really having a hard time grasping the concept, let me try to clarify so that you can understand the record profits and taxes idea.
Yes. It is a record amount of both. Record amount of profit, and record amount of taxes for Exxon Mobile and it's Shareholders. Record amount. The highest amount on record.
Let it sink in boy genius. Record amount. Meaning an amount that they have never achieved before. Not littlest amount, but the biggest amount of profit and biggest amount of taxes. Not a little money, "alot" of money.
Did it sink in? If it doesn't, then you will never get it.
Sorry to talk to you like you have a double digit IQ...you seem very sensitive about that, but I don't know how to make the point with someone as intelligent as you are.
HAAA! What a laugher that was. The rich will never stop buying their expensive little toys because of taxes...trust me. That was a nice little story however. What was the painter in the boat yards name btw? Was it Joe also? Trust you? Instead of learning history?
I'm sorry again to hurt your feelings, but read this, it's title is Rising Tide: Kwame Holman looks at how a 1990 budget concession has failed to produce revenue, because a luxury tax it instituted, back fired (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/budget/budget_1-1.html)
It is a nice little story. A transcript of a PBS show actually. Easy, quick read. Here are some excerpts:
KWAME HOLMAN: The theory behind the luxury tax sounded simple enough. Congress believed anyone willing to spend $100,000 or more on a new boat surely would be willing to pay an additional 10 percent to the federal government. But that didn't happen. Rather than pay the tax, many people in the market to buy a boat either didn't buy one, or bought one overseas. As a result, the luxury tax didn't bring in much money at all, and the customers' reluctance to buy put the boat-building business, particularly here in Rhode Island, out of business. We first visited Rhode Island in June of 1992. The luxury tax had been in effect for 18 months. Tens of thousands of jobs had been lost across the country, thousands in Rhode Island alone. Are you still laughtering Endeavor? Trust you?
KWAME HOLMAN: When we talked with Dave MacFarlane in 1992, Alden Yachts had no new boats on order. MacFarlane had been forced to lay off dozens of skilled workers and at the time concluded the luxury tax was costing the government more money than it was collecting.
DAVE MacFARLANE: (1992) If you look at approximately say 35 or so people laid off at about say two hundred and sixty-five to three hundred and ten dollars a week in unemployment, if you add that up, you know, it comes to about $1/2 million.
KWAME HOLMAN: Some members of Congress realized almost immediately they made a mistake in levying the luxury tax.

Roark now seems to be advocating for no taxes at all. That is incorrect. Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion.

Raising taxes on ANYONE when there are two wars on foreign soil and a recession is bad government policy. I advocate to NOT raise taxes on ANYONE and to extend the Bush Tax Cuts.
Simple. Straightforward.

Is it too much to ask that you stick to ideas rather than make direct personal comments and challenges?
It's great that you want to single me out and spend so much of your energy thinking about me, but really, my girlfriend gets jealous when people get so interested in me personally.
I'd rather keep the conversation intellectual and continue a dialouge with the ideas and comments by Florida Will.

I'm quite surprised to hear you have a girlfriend. Is it that four-eyed girl from high school? She must have a double digit IQ.

The conversation has always been intellectual, you just get frustrated everytime you are proven wrong.

But if you are really having a hard time grasping the concept, let me try to clarify so that you can understand the record profits and taxes idea.
Yes. It is a record amount of both. Record amount of profit, and record amount of taxes for Exxon Mobile and it's Shareholders. Record amount. The highest amount on record.
Let it sink in boy genius. Record amount. Meaning an amount that they have never achieved before. Not littlest amount, but the biggest amount of profit and biggest amount of taxes. Not a little money, "alot" of money.
Did it sink in? If it doesn't, then you will never get the point.

Dude, are you kidding? Of course I know the definition of record thank you. What I don't understand is how you make it seem like it's an ungodly amount to pay when the revenue was also a record! Guess what, I understand the concept so well that I bet you next time they post record earnings they will also have a new record tax bill. Woopdeedo what is your point?

Sorry to talk to you like you have a double digit IQ...you seem very sensitive about that, but I don't know how to make the point with someone as intelligent as you are.

Don't be sorry. You could never offend me no matter how hard you try. Besides, I've already gotten used to your arrogance.

Trust you? Instead of learning history?
I'm sorry again to hurt your feelings, but read this, it's title is Rising Tide: Kwame Holman looks at how a 1990 budget concession has failed to produce revenue, because a luxury tax it instituted, back fired (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/budget/budget_1-1.html)
It is a nice little story. A transcript of a PBS show actually. Easy, quick read. Here are some excerpts:
Are you still laughtering Endeavor? Trust you?

Thank you for being so nice, but really don't worry about the feelings. :) You know I could pull many more references (and videos) on what has worked and what hasn't worked from much more recently (like over the last 8 years). Again, you googling a 1996 transcript is what I call fishing for covenient sources. Please provide something more recent and substantial and maybe I'll take it serious.

You should trust me, you should also listen to me...you might learn something. :banana::nuts:

Dude, are you kidding? Of course I know the definition of record thank you.
From you posts, you seemed very confused.Your EXACT quote was,
"That's alot of money for you, not Exxon."
I posted that is IS a lot of money for Exxon Mobile, it IS a record amount of money.
You still seemed to confused and disagreed. So confused you asked, "What do you mean it's alot of money for it's employess and shareholders? Are you talking about the tax or revenue?"
You asked what I mean, and I walked you through it. NOW do you know what I mean.
What I don't understand is how you make it seem like it's an ungodly amount to pay when the revenue was also a record! Guess what, I understand the concept so well that I bet you next time they post record earnings they will also have a new record tax bill. Woopdeedo what is your point?Great! So you DIDN'T understand the point at all from the begininng?

This is ponderous. RECALL that Florida Will said that he wasn't happy that he paid taxes and Walmart didn't. You follow?
Carefully, now, this is going to get tricky.
MY POINT was that in the entire Associated Press article, they only talk about the RECORD PROFITS and they make no mention of the record tax payments. Do you get it?
Woopeedo, what's your point he says. Make sure you understand the point before you go off.

Wow, Endeavor, if you can't follow, and you don't understand sarcasm, then don't get all worked up. It's okay, we should engage in these types of conversations.

Again, you googling a 1996 transcript is what I call fishing for covenient sources. Oh, that is what YOU call it. Some would call it concrete evidence that what you said is dead wrong.
Not slightly wrong, but dead wrong.
Originally Posted by Endeavor305
HAAA! What a laugher that was. The rich will never stop buying their expensive little toys because of taxes...trust me. That was a nice little story however. What was the painter in the boat yards name btw? Was it Joe also? Trust me. What a laughter.

Hello?

From you posts, you seemed very confused.Your EXACT quote was,
"That's alot of money for you, not Exxon."
I posted that is IS a lot of money for Exxon Mobile, it IS a record amount of money.
You still seemed to confused and disagreed.

If I remember correctly you said Exxon's tax bill for Q3 was $32+/-M, correct? That is not alot of money for Exxon. Their quarter revenue was $13.4B, and that's just one quarter. I'm pretty sure they have enough capital saved from previous quarters to pay the tax bill 100's of times over. That's what I mean by it's not alot of money for Exxon. I find it hard for me to believe you didn't understand me. I think the issue with you is that you refuse to acknowledge this for I don't know what reason. Perhaps you feel like you must win or something. And if it's cause you don't understand what I'm saying, then you are really slow. I bet if I polled everyone here, they would say they understand me. So do you understand me Roark?

So confused you asked, "What do you mean it's alot of money for it's employess and shareholders? Are you talking about the tax or revenue?"

That's called sarcasm. Ever heard of it? That's why I put the smiley face after the question mark which you took out when quoting me. :)

Great! So you DIDN'T understand the point at all from the begininng?

This is ponderous. RECALL that Florida Will said that he wasn't happy that he paid taxes and Walmart didn't. You follow?
Carefully, now, this is going to get tricky.
MY POINT was that in the entire Associated Press article, they only talk about the RECORD PROFITS and they make no mention of the record tax payments. Do you get it?
Woopeedo, what's your point he says. Make sure you understand the point before you go off.

No no no, now look what you done. You confused yourself now. What did your mom tell you about thinking so hard...

My point was that the record profit heavily outweighs the tax burden. These companies don't need that much money. Do you know what they do with all that extra money? I can tell you it doesn't go to shareholders, otherwise all of Exxon's shareholders (myself included) would be multi-millionaires. The execs figure out a way to distribute it amongst themselves and all their friends. That's why you see CEO's and CFO's all the way down the line getting 10's of millions dollar bonuses. They also get extravagant paid vacations and gifts.

There are tons of ways to mask the money. Enron for example was found to have phony contracts with other companies for supplies and "infrastructure upgrades". What was really going on is the execs where siphoning the money into their pockets. That's why one of them commited suicide when it came out. The one oil companies love to use is they redistribute the money back into the company as "R&D". If you don't know what I'm talking about here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24757944/) is a link on the senate hearings from earlier this year. Do you think it's fair these execs get 10's of millions (in some cases 100's of millions) when the middle class struggles to pay for gas and groceries? I don't think it is fair no matter how you try and sugarcoat it. Answer that question Roark. Like Senator Durbin asked' "where's their corporate conscience?".

Ahem.. Mr. Roark. Do you approve of windfall profit taxes?

Of .
Really? I've never won any popularity contests on this forum, but that you don't think you sholuld "work your way through college" is disgusting!
Man, I hope I'm not in the minority on this one, or this Change is worse than I thought.
You have the OPPORTUNITY to go to college!!! And you are resentful that you have to work for it??? Do you want it for free? What else, free health care, free foot massages, free food, free beer, free WHAT?!?!?


I dont dissagree with anything you said much except I think you missunderstood me here. I dont care about working my way through college, I was just making the point of how little pitty I have for Joe the B.S. Plumber.
In fact I always wanted a job anyways, I have never had anything handed to me so I dont want you to think that is the kind of guy that I am.

My dad is a plumber. He owned a multi million dollar plumbing business that he worked his ass off for, not anymore. A lot has happened with the economy that takes things out of your hands no matter how hard you work.

Still waiting...

How can people want to look up to Joe the Plumber? He owes back taxes, lied about his ability to purchase a company that does not even make the money he said it did and he is working illegally, not licensed, as a plumber. There is nothing to look up to him about. On top of that he has become a device of hate and lies of the GOP as displayed by his press conferences including the one that he claimed that a vote for Barack Obama equaled the death of Israel.

The problem in this country is, as John Mccain did with his VP choice, many do not want to do their due diligence. Some want to turn on the TV and have CNN tell them who they should vote for and why. They rely on commercials and other devices. When instead they should be doing research on voting records, past affiliations and views. Hell learn how to call Bull Shit when you hear it.

You have to do your homework. The candidate is the one getting hired. When you go to a job interview, does the employer go by your resume and cover page alone? No. An employer does their homework, ie. criminal background checks, credit checks, AN INTERVIEW longer than 15 minutes. :bash:

Right now I really wish to be a moderator.

Ahem.. Mr. Roark. Do you approve of windfall profit taxes? Me personally? What difference does it make if I approve of something or not personally? And why do you care.
The question should be would raising taxes, on anyone, or anything, be good for the United States in wartime and with a recession on the horizon.
But I'll humour you, even though it is obvious and predictable that you will want to change the conversation from what IDEAS are good for country to what they told you about Sarah Palin.
Gee Space, which ones are you asking about specifically?
If you mean the Excise Taxes that they called Windfall Profit Taxes on domestic oil producer that were enacted in Carter Administration during tough economic times. Recession time, is definitely the wrong time to raise taxes. Enacting those taxes proved to have unintended consequences (like most tax increases do) and they were repealed.
The government taxed domestic oil, and domestic oil companies stopped pumping domestic oil, they just imported foreign oil.
The phrase "Windfall Profit Tax" can be used to mislead people into thinking that corporations "make to much money" don't "pay their share of taxes".

Again, it should be clear, I don't like big government. I don't like Welfare, corporate or otherwise. And increasing taxes with two wars going on and a recession looming IS NOT a good change.

Great post Space.How can people want to look up to Joe the Plumber? He owes back taxes, lied about his ability to purchase a company that does not even make the money he said it did and he is working illegally, not licensed, as a plumber.
I don't know the guy personally, so I don't know the answer to your question on why people would look up to him.
But I know this. This guy is a private citizen. Why would a political party investigate a private citizen (in the United States I mean, I know why they do it in Cuba, and in communists countries).
Sad politics. Personally, I don't watch much television and haven't follow the whole thing, but it is probably a bad idea for the Obama Campaign and their supporters to use Government computers to hit this guy. Whatever happened to human decency.
The problem in this country is, as John Mccain did with his VP choice, many do not want to do their due diligence. Some want to turn on the TV and have CNN tell them who they should vote for and why. They rely on commercials and other devices. When instead they should be doing research on voting records, past affiliations and views. Hell learn how to call Bull Shit when you hear it.
Yep, exactly. Voting records, Military records, views on the Constitiution, executive experience, maybe even if the candidate spent 20 years in the KKK or in a radical hateful church. Also important to some would be the candidates motivation for achieving the job, is he going to do what is best for the organization, or manipulated the organization for his own personal interest. These types of things may be important to voters and employers.

The sad reality Space, is that many people will vote on emotion not logic, and they will vote however their friends vote because of their desparate need to find belonging in a group. When every warm body votes, this is what we get.

Hang on a sec. It was McCain himself who chose to inject 'Joe the Plumber' into the national spotlight. When you do that, it stands to reason that anyone plucked from obscurity and made a household word in the span of 24 hours will receive attention from the press. The fact is the guy was revealed to be not quite what McCain presented him as. He is NOT a business owner (as McCain initially told the public during the last debate)...he does NOT make anything close to the $200,000 threshold to see his taxes raised (as McCain had implied by congratulating him on 'being rich' during the same debate) and, in fact, he is not even a licensed plumber and his owing of back taxes is a matter of public record. 'Joe' has also eagerly made himself available for numerous TV interviews---where he has expressed a variety of opinions (including his opposition to Social Security) that would be in the fringes of American political thought.

I agree the guy is hardly 'Satan Incarnate' and shouldn't be an important part of any serious political debate---nor should he be dragged through the mud---but it is the McCain camp that picked him to be a celebrity---and continues to campaign with him as recently as yesterday. You can't do that without expecting added attention---and nothing that has been revealed about 'Joe' is false. In fact, this notion that he is being demonized is a wholly calculated response that is purely political itself. That's how the game is played.

The question should be would raising taxes, on anyone, or anything, be good for the United States in wartime and with a recession on the horizon.

Obama is going to end the war.

But I'll humour you, even though it is obvious and predictable that you will want to change the conversation from what IDEAS are good for country to what they told you about Sarah Palin.

No one has to be told who Sarah Palin is. She showed how unprepared she is in multiple interviews, most notably the Katie Couric one.

Again, it should be clear, I don't like big government. I don't like Welfare, corporate or otherwise. And increasing taxes with two wars going on and a recession looming IS NOT a good change.

Two wars? Afghanistan is not a war, that's more like an operation. And again, Obama is going to end the war in Iraq.

Even the intellectual wing of the GOP can't make valid excuses for Sarah Palin and has had the guts to call it an embarrassing and reckless choice, so I really don't think much more need be said about it.

She revealed more than enough by her own words and actions.

Great post Space.
I don't know the guy personally, so I don't know the answer to your question on why people would look up to him.
But I know this. This guy is a private citizen. Why would a political party investigate a private citizen (in the United States I mean, I know why they do it in Cuba, and in communists countries).
Sad politics. Personally, I don't watch much television and haven't follow the whole thing, but it is probably a bad idea for the Obama Campaign and their supporters to use Government computers to hit this guy. Whatever happened to human decency.

hahahaha. This was hilarious. To say that he was investigated is a hint at communism. Man you are pathetic. How does your girlfriend put up with such a moron, I don't know. Do you really even have a girlfriend?

Anyway, of course the guy's going to get looked into, he was mentioned on national television. The people and the media took an interest into this story and so they looked at his PUBLIC record. Obama didn't have his guys follow him. LOL. The fact that McCain didn't rationalize that the truth about Joe Plumber was going to be revealed proves (again) that his judgement is not fit to be president. Has Obama gone on tv and told a story of a citizen that turned out to be 'made up'. No, he's clearly smart enough to not make such a mistake.

Yep, exactly. Voting records, Military records, views on the Constitiution, executive experience, maybe even if the candidate spent 20 years in the KKK or in a radical hateful church. Also important to some would be the candidates motivation for achieving the job, is he going to do what is best for the organization, or manipulated the organization for his own personal interest. These types of things may be important to voters and employers.

McCain voted with president Bush approximately 90% of the time.

The sad reality Space, is that many people will vote on emotion not logic, and they will vote however their friends vote because of their desparate need to find belonging in a group. When every warm body votes, this is what we get.

I can see a person like yourself voting to fit in with a group. But the grand majority of people will be voting for who they seem best fit and not because they want to belong. Of all the elections from now into the past, this election is one where people will be voting for themselves and not to belong. And the reasons are both emotion and logic. Emotional because people in this country are drained from the rough times they been going through and want to be happy or in peace (retirees). Logical because they will see Obama's policies differ from Bush/McCain when compared side by side. Everything Obama has presented has made sense with the common folk as well as all the experts in economics and foreign policy. It's clear who the better candidate is under the circumstances. We need to change the way things are done in Washington.

Happy Halloween Everyone!

Me personally? What difference does it make if I approve of something or not personally? And why do you care.
The question should be would raising taxes, on anyone, or anything, be good for the United States in wartime and with a recession on the horizon.
But I'll humour you, even though it is obvious and predictable that you will want to change the conversation from what IDEAS are good for country to what they told you about Sarah Palin.
Gee Space, which ones are you asking about specifically?
If you mean the Excise Taxes that they called Windfall Profit Taxes on domestic oil producer that were enacted in Carter Administration during tough economic times. Recession time, is definitely the wrong time to raise taxes. Enacting those taxes proved to have unintended consequences (like most tax increases do) and they were repealed.
The government taxed domestic oil, and domestic oil companies stopped pumping domestic oil, they just imported foreign oil.
The phrase "Windfall Profit Tax" can be used to mislead people into thinking that corporations "make to much money" don't "pay their share of taxes".

Again, it should be clear, I don't like big government. I don't like Welfare, corporate or otherwise. And increasing taxes with two wars going on and a recession looming IS NOT a good change.

Alaskans to receive $3,269 each

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/516967.html

By RACHEL D'ORO
Associated Press Writer

Published: September 5th, 2008 01:13 PM

It's the season for Alaskans to be rewarded just for living here, and this year's take is extra sweet: $3,269, a record share of the state's oil wealth combined with a special cash payout to help with stratospheric energy prices.

Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell announced today that every eligible man, woman and child will receive $2,069, thanks to dividend payments from the state's oil royalty investment program distributed annually. On top of that, the checks will include another $1,200 from the state treasury to help offset soaring fuel prices.

The one-time energy boost was backed by Gov. Sarah Palin and approved by state lawmakers last month. Palin has since been tapped as the running mate of Republican presidential hopeful John McCain.

"The royalty dollars that flow through the state are the people's wealth," said Parnell. "The $1,200 resource rebate goes to that philosophy."

People must live in Alaska one calendar year to qualify for the payout. For residents in Alaska's rural communities, the money can't arrive at a more crucial time.

"When it gets real cold in winter, it can take five gallons of fuel for heating overnight," said Wanda Sue Page, who lives in the Arctic village of Noatak, where residents pay more than $9 for a gallon of gasoline and nearly $10 for a gallon of heating oil.

"I'm going to fill my 52-gallon tank up to the top and put the heat up real high," Page said. "And when it gets empty, I'm going to fill it again."

Sam Shields, who lives in the Kuskokwim River town of Bethel, also is among the 610,768 people who are receiving the dividend this year. The state's estimated population is just under 680,000 people.

Shields said the money is desperately needed in his community, where he recently saw a whole chicken selling for $23 at the local grocery store. Gasoline is going for almost $6 a gallon, but that price is expected to reach the $8 mark when the last barge of the season delivers its load of fuel.

To make ends meet, Shields and other residents are relying more on subsistence foods like moose and caribou meat, salmon and berries. The state payout is already spoken for, he said, destined to pay for fuel, bills and a new wood-burning stove that should cut down on his heating costs.

"Everyone around here was happy to hear how much we're getting," he said. "Mainly everybody here is saying they're going to use it on fuel."

The fund was established in 1976 after North Slope oil was discovered. Including the upcoming dividends, the fund has since yielded $16.5 billion to Alaskans since the first payout of $1,000 in 1982, according to the state Revenue Department. That's not counting the energy relief money, which alone totals $730 million.

Before this year's bounty, dividend payments ranged from $331 to $1,963 in 2000. Last year's dividend payout was $1,654.

The fund is valued at almost $36 billion, with total returns at a minus-3.6 percent in the fiscal year ending June 30. The poor global economy is blamed for the reduction of the fund's value, according to acting Revenue Commissioner Jerry Burnett.

Dividend amounts have no direct link to oil prices or the fund's value. Oil prices, which sank below $106 a barrel Friday, can boost the fund's principal, but the money must be invested.

Payouts are calculated on a five-year average of investment income from bonds, stock dividends and sales, and other investments.

Direct deposit of the dividends is scheduled earlier than usual this year, Sept. 12, for more than 493,000 people. Paper checks for recipients who want them will be mailed out, starting Sept. 30.

If residents have received a payment every year since the first was issued, their total take in the program would be $29,605. That does not include the energy relief amount.

Wow that sure sounds like a program that McCain/Palin would rip into if it were in a Democrat state or approved by a Democrat Governor.

Saw that coming from a mile away.
Wow that sure sounds like a program that McCain/Palin would rip into if it were in a Democrat state or approved by a Democrat Governor.
So, you ignored every comment that I made about raising taxes in a recession, but neverless...I'll comment on your post if you have no response for the failed Carter increase in taxes during recession.
Notice the part where is says, "every eligible man, woman and child will receive $2,069"
Not just the Rich, Not just the Poor. Not the just the people that vote for her or don't. EVERY!
EXCELLENT example, you've thrown out there. Here are a couple more quotes from your article.
"The fund was established in 1976 after North Slope oil was discovered."
Wow that sure sounds like a program that McCain/Palin would rip into if it were in a Democrat state or approved by a Democrat Governor. Can you give ONE example of a Democrat Governor in a Democrat State EVER reducing the size of government coffers from taking money out of a government account and giving to EVERY man, woman and child EQUALLY?
Just ONE.
If you can find ONE instance, I'm sure that McCain/Palin wouldn't rip into it.

The people and the media took an interest into this story and so they looked at his PUBLIC record. Obama didn't have his guys follow him. LOL.
Really? The Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/29/joe30.html?sid=101) is reporting those facts differently. Send them a letter and tell them to Trust you, that your facts are better than their facts, and tell them that they are morons.
Checks on 'Joe' more extensive than first acknowledged
Tax, welfare info also sought on McCain ally Wednesday, October 29, 2008 8:05 PM By Randy Ludlow
A state agency has revealed that its checks of computer systems for potential information on "Joe the Plumber" were more extensive than it first acknowledged.
Helen Jones-Kelley, director of the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services, disclosed today that computer inquiries on Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher were not restricted to a child-support system.
Jones-Kelly also has denied any connections between the computer checks on Wurzelbacher and her support for Obama. She donated the maximum $2,500 this year to the Obama campaign. So, you may LOL and post that it was public information. The article clearly states that a government employee accessed their INTERNAL records.

Most Americans probably wouldn't think that it's not funny for the government to be investigating you because you asked a Candidate a question on TV. We should all be outraged.

Seriously, no mattter what team you are rooting for. Personal attacks and investigations into private citizens backgrounds should be very off limits.

So, I fell for it a couple of times, but won't anymore. Back to staying above the fray and back to the ideas.

Since we're fishing for 'examples' of things here how about an example---just ONE---of something that has been reported about 'Joe the Plumber" that wasn't, in fact, true.

This is remarkable to me, btw. The suggestion seems to be that a candidate for president of the United States should be able to introduce someone from obscurity to millions of people...literally campaign with this person...spend millions on advertising to keep his name in the news (or are the 'I'm Joe the Plumber' ads not running in Florida?)...and NOT expect that person to receive scrutiny. Completely ludicrous.

It was McCain that put this person on the national stage. It is McCain and his ad team that continues to use 'Joe' as a campaign prop. That he turns out to be not at all what was initially introduced to the public isn't a "hatchet job" but simply reporting the FACTS about the man.

Saw that coming from a mile away.

So, you ignored every comment that I made about raising taxes in a recession, but neverless...I'll comment on your post if you have no response for the failed Carter increase in taxes during recession.

Jimmy Carter is not running for office, John McCain and Sarah, a heartbeat away, Palin are. You attempt to make a point on the merits of the "Executive Experience" that Palin has and her self proclaimed "Reformer" title yet she is redistributing, or at least approving of, the distribution of wealth in Alaska.

Jimmy Carter is not running for office, John McCain and Sarah, a heartbeat away, Palin are.Yes. As you recall. You asked ME what I thought about Windfall Profit Taxes. Remember?
Don't be shocked if when you ask a question, I answer it.
Did you find ONE Democrat Governor yet?
JUST ONE that would take money out of the public coffers and ditribute the money EQUALLY amongst every man, woman, and child?
Just ONE.
If it is taking a lot of time, it's understandable. But stay on topic. I answered you directly about what I thought about Windfall Taxes, Governor Pallin distributing dividends from her state's oil royalty investment program shouldn't be alarming, the fund has been around since 1976.
You stated, " sounds like a program that McCain/Palin would rip into if it were in a Democrat state or approved by a Democrat Governor"
First of all, they probably wouldn't. Secondly, is there and example of a Democrat Governor in a Democrat State ever reducing the size of government by returning money to the taxpayers?
Answer me, can you name ONE.

You know what, Space, I think I've figured it out. You are not really an Obama supporter! Genius! I love it! You are pretending to be an Obama supporter to make them look ill informed and incapable of defending their ideas!
That is soooo good! You know that there is no liberal in the US that is making Government smaller and extending MORE freedom and liberty. You got me....good one!

Notice how McCain and Palin are the ones that came up with calling themselves "mavericks" lol. I think I'm going to do the same. I'm going to walk around town and tell everyone I'm a maverick. Better yet, I'll gonna tell everyone I'm god. Why not? If John McCain can make self-proclamations then I might as well too.

I'll also get people to like me by telling them the incredible story of a guy called Mike the roofer. I'll tell everyone that Mike the roofer used to be poor, but he became the best roofer in town and now has enough money saved up to buy his own business; even though Mike has only $5 in his savings account, no roofing license, no tools, no arms and no legs. I bet people will feel inspired by that story assuming they fall for it. Yea the American people will fall for it because I think they're stupid enough. And if anyone checks up on Mike I'll call them a communist so either way I win right?

The Joe the plumber thing isn't the only instance where the McCain camp has tried to influence voters by feeding them bull s**t. As some of you might have seen, there was a mailer they sent out here in south Florida with a picture of Fidel Castro on it. On the other side it had some crap about McCain being tougher on the Castro regime or something like that. Now that was grade A horse s**t.

Yes. As you recall. You asked ME what I thought about Windfall Profit Taxes. Remember?
Don't be shocked if when you ask a question, I answer it.
Did you find ONE Democrat Governor yet?
JUST ONE that would take money out of the public coffers and ditribute the money EQUALLY amongst every man, woman, and child?
Just ONE.
If it is taking a lot of time, it's understandable. But stay on topic. I answered you directly about what I thought about Windfall Taxes, Governor Pallin distributing dividends from her state's oil royalty investment program shouldn't be alarming, the fund has been around since 1976.
You stated, " sounds like a program that McCain/Palin would rip into if it were in a Democrat state or approved by a Democrat Governor"
First of all, they probably wouldn't. Secondly, is there and example of a Democrat Governor in a Democrat State ever reducing the size of government by returning money to the taxpayers?
Answer me, can you name ONE.

You know what, Space, I think I've figured it out. You are not really an Obama supporter! Genius! I love it! You are pretending to be an Obama supporter to make them look ill informed and incapable of defending their ideas!
That is soooo good! You know that there is no liberal in the US that is making Government smaller and extending MORE freedom and liberty. You got me....good one!

So now you are saying that distributing the "wealth" equally is OK. If Palin is such a reformer and is so appalled by the idea of redistributing the "wealth" then why hasn't she pushed to have the royalties program stopped? She is the one that claims she will take on the Good Ole' Boys.

Frankly I have not even began to search for a Democrat Governor because I personally think that windfall profit taxes to a certain extent are just fine. I am not attacking the program. I am attacking the hypocrisy of the McCain/Palin camp. Obama has proposed the very thing Alaska began in 1974 and Sarah Palin approves and was attacked for it.

So has the Federal Government gotten any smaller in the past eight years? First six of them with a Republican President, Senate and House I remind you. How does McCain think he will do all he has promised without the support of the Democrats and by standing up to his own party like the Maverick that he claims to be?

Finally, I think I figured you out. You are just an advanced, automated and interactive robocall programmed by Rove, Gingrich or quite possibly even Buchanan.

So Sarah Palin is the "Great Reformer," eh? A look at some of her actions as governor shows how completely laughable that notion truly is. For example:

* More than 100 appointments to state posts -- nearly 1 in 4 -- went to campaign contributors or their relatives, sometimes without apparent regard to qualifications.

* Palin filled 16 state offices with appointees from families that donated $2,000 to $5,600 and were among her top political patrons.

* Several of Palin's leading campaign donors received state-subsidized industrial development loans of up to $3.6 million for business ventures of questionable public value.

* Palin picked a donor to replace the public safety commissioner she fired. But the new top cop had to resign days later under an ethics cloud. And Palin drew a formal ethics complaint still pending against her and several aides for allegedly helping another donor and fundraiser land a state job.

And let's not forget her penchant for hiring her high-school chums (at least a half-dozen at last count) for cushy state jobs at publically-financed salaries that far exceeded their private sector wages. No doubt they are all highly qualified---such as Alaska's current director of the State Division of Agriculture---a Palin school buddy who cited her "childhood love of cows" as a qualification for running the agency (along with the $95,000 salary it comes with).

Sarah Palin is a reformer? She's a political hack.

McCain and Palin continue their laughable and ludicrous guilty by association accusations with Obama's "ties" to Rashid Khalidi. Now, it seems that this Khalidi with his "ties" to the PLO received over $400,000 from John McCain back in 1998. So I guess this means that McCain also pals around, no finances, terrorists and anti-semitic individuals.

"In regards to Khalidi, however, the guilt-by-association game burns John McCain as well.

During the 1990s, while he served as chairman of the International Republican Institute (IRI), McCain distributed several grants to the Palestinian research center co-founded by Khalidi, including one worth half a million dollars.

A 1998 tax filing for the McCain-led group shows a $448,873 grant to Khalidi's Center for Palestine Research and Studies for work in the West Bank. (See grant number 5180, "West Bank: CPRS" on page 14 of this PDF (http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/IRIForm9901998.pdf).)"

-http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/28/mccain-funded-work-of-pal_n_138606.html

Finally, I think I figured you out. You are just an advanced, automated and interactive robocall programmed by Rove, Gingrich or quite possibly even Buchanan.

LOL. Brilliant! That was one of the funniest & wittiest things I've read here. It sure feels that way. Cheers! :cheers:

by Mark Silva
Barack Obama is getting a boost from Hispanic voters in early voting in South Florida, according to exit-polling that shows strong margins for the Democratic candidate among traditionally Republican voters.
If margins such as these hold true on Election Day in the Miami area, Obama could have a strong claim to Florida's 27 electoral votes.
The exit polling of 8,683 voters leaving most of the county's early-voting sites between Oct. 20-29 was sponsored by the political science class of Associate Professor Mike Abrams at the University of Miami and financed by Bendixen & Associates, a long-established polling firm working as a consultant to the Obama campaign.
The ability of any Democrat to claim a sizeable share of the Hispanic vote in South Florida is part of any winning formula there. The exit polling found winning numbers:
-- 60 percent of those voting early were Hispanic, in a county with a 55-percent Hispanic electorate.
-- Among all Hispanics voting, Obama was favored by 47 percent, McCain 53.
-- Among Cuban-born Hispanics, McCain 69 percent, Obama 31.
-- Among U.S.-born Hispanics, Obama 72 percent, McCain 28.
-- Among white, Anglo voters, Obama 64 percent, McCain 36.
-- Among African-American voters, Obama 98 percent.

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/10/obamas_hispanic_vote_strong_in.html

So now you are saying that distributing the "wealth" equally is OK. If Palin is such a reformer and is so appalled by the idea of redistributing the "wealth" then why hasn't she pushed to have the royalties program stopped? You are confusing what wealth redistribution is with that Alaska example.
Regardless, Presidential Candidate Obama feels it is okay to take property from some citzens to give it to others that HE feels have been underrepresented.
It's taking from wealthy and redistributing to others unequally.
You can't make this stuff up: Please listen to Obama in his own words. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck)
I am attacking the hypocrisy of the McCain/Palin camp. Obama has proposed the very thing Alaska began in 1974 and Sarah Palin approves and was attacked for it.NO, that is not true. Obama takes from wealthy people/corporations and gives a tax credit to 95% of workers (so he says, forget that 95% of workers don't pay any income taxes to begin with).
Not all. Not equally. It's different.
Alaska has as a part of their Constitution this natural resources fund. The state has a surplus. Excellent! Give the money back to people. All of the people equally.
The ideas are different. Should be obvious.
So has the Federal Government gotten any smaller in the past eight years? No! Do you even read what I write? The government has grown way to big, I've posted it over and over and over. Bush spent like a drunken sailor and it's awful.
McCain for his part voted against the Prescription Medicine Entitlement program, the largest entitlement ever.
Spending should be cut drastically, taxes should be lowered, and industry should be allowed to flurish and create jobs.

So, you gave up on finding ONE Democrat Governor that would pay out money from the coffers equally and to all. It's because they don't do it.

You are confusing what wealth redistribution is with that Alaska example.
Regardless, Presidential Candidate Obama feels it is okay to take property from some citzens to give it to others that HE feels have been underrepresented.
It's taking from wealthy and redistributing to others unequally.
You can't make this stuff up: Please listen to Obama in his own words. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck)
NO, that is not true. Obama takes from wealthy people/corporations and gives a tax credit to 95% of workers (so he says, forget that 95% of workers don't pay any income taxes to begin with).
Not all. Not equally. It's different.
Alaska has as a part of their Constitution this natural resources fund. The state has a surplus. Excellent! Give the money back to people. All of the people equally.
The ideas are different. Should be obvious.
No! Do you even read what I write? The government has grown way to big, I've posted it over and over and over. Bush spent like a drunken sailor and it's awful.
McCain for his part voted against the Prescription Medicine Entitlement program, the largest entitlement ever.
Spending should be cut drastically, taxes should be lowered, and industry should be allowed to flurish and create jobs.

So, you gave up on finding ONE Democrat Governor that would pay out money from the coffers equally and to all. It's because they don't do it.

Roark, you must truly be exhausted after all this. :lol:

You are confusing what wealth redistribution is with that Alaska example.
Regardless, Presidential Candidate Obama feels it is okay to take property from some citzens to give it to others that HE feels have been underrepresented.
It's taking from wealthy and redistributing to others unequally.
You can't make this stuff up: Please listen to Obama in his own words. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck)
NO, that is not true. Obama takes from wealthy people/corporations and gives a tax credit to 95% of workers (so he says, forget that 95% of workers don't pay any income taxes to begin with).
Not all. Not equally. It's different.
Alaska has as a part of their Constitution this natural resources fund. The state has a surplus. Excellent! Give the money back to people. All of the people equally.
The ideas are different. Should be obvious.
No! Do you even read what I write? If you mean your Bullshit, then no, I don't read what you post. The government has grown way to big, I've posted it over and over and over. Bush spent like a drunken sailor and it's awful.
McCain for his part voted against the Prescription Medicine Entitlement program, the largest entitlement ever.
Spending should be cut drastically, taxes should be lowered, and industry should be allowed to flurish and create jobs.

So, you gave up on finding ONE Democrat Governor that would pay out money from the coffers equally and to all. t's because they don't do it.

If McCain has all the answers like how to win in Iraq, find and Kill Osama Bin Laden and fix the economy why has he not shared this insight with George Bush right NOW so it can all be corrected? If he loses will he keep all his answers to himself?

2 months ago you all were happy. "Nice post Roark", "that's true addicted","Nice photos", etc.....were some of the many statements you used to find here.

If you mean your Bullshit, then no, I don't read what you post. Ahhh...you are a gentleman. Your parents should be very proud of what a well mannered, civil human being you have become.
How about the Public Radio Interview from Barrack Obama where he calls the United States Constitutions a charter of "Negative Liberties" and where he says that the Supreme Court didn't address "redistributive change".
Here it is again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

What does Obama mean by redistributive change as it relates to the civil rights movement?

Yes, Quantum, it's exhausting! Fun when the conversation is respectful and intellectual. Exhausting when it denegrates to name calling, sophmoric banter, and neglect for reality.

2 months ago you all were happy. "Nice post Roark", "that's true addicted","Nice photos", etc.....were some of the many statements you used to find here.
:lol: Yeah...that's the Roark outside the Bayside Lounge! In this place you get slandered all over the place for having a different point of view!
I'm still very happy, and, nice post Fidel!

Yes, Quantum, it's exhausting! Fun when the conversation is respectful and intellectual. Exhausting when it denegrates to name calling, sophmoric banter, and neglect for reality.

Okay, now then would go and vote for me in something nonpolitical that I think will contribute to helping to boost the South Florida economy as well as the economy of the nation? :):cheers:

This is remarkable to me, btw. The suggestion seems to be that a candidate for president of the United States should be able to introduce someone from obscurity to millions of people ....literally campaign with this person...spend millions on advertising to keep his name in the news (or are the 'I'm Joe the Plumber' ads not running in Florida?)...and NOT expect that person to receive scrutiny. Completely ludicrous.
FACT is that Barrack Obama introduced Joe the Plumber from obscurity to millions of people. Obama drove the campaign bus into Joe's neighborhood and Joe asked Obama a question.
McCain referenced the question in the debate, and used the question to demostrate his opposite views.
So far, nothing remarkable or ludicrous to me.
According to The Columbus Dispatch (http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/31/joe.html?sid=101)the next day after the debate, a government employee, "was asked to run a child-support check on Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher on Oct. 16, she thought it routine."
This is where is starts to get remarkable for me.
"Director Helen Jones-Kelley said her agency checks people who are "thrust into the public spotlight," amid suggestions they may have come into money, to see if they owe support or are receiving undeserved public assistance.
Niekamp told The Dispatch she is unfamiliar with the practice of checking on the newly famous. "I've never done that before, I don't know of anybody in my office who does that and I don't remember anyone ever doing that," she said today."
Scrutinize the ideas fine. Scrutinize the man...I wouldn't do it, but it seems to be the politics of personal destruction that is typical of the way that some people carry out healthy debates.
Governement supervisors, directing government employees to use government computers to investigate citizens because they have a different point of view or excercise their free speech; THAT is completely ludicrous, and disgusting.

Spell, looks like we will have to agree to disagree on this one too.
I don't approve of the government conducting witch hunts into the lives of private citizens based on their political affiliation. It is surpising to me that all Americans don't find common ground on this issue.

Evidently, you seem to suggest that it is okay to do that if the private citizen gets famous somehow. We will just agree to disagree.

Roark we don't agree and it will not change. You cherry pick what you comment on, redirect the conversation, bring up pointless or worthless arguments and it is you who disrespect people on this forum. You need not to use offensive language or overt insults to show disrespect. You do that on this forum time after time.

I will not respond, reply or comment on any of your future posts please do the same with my future posts. As for the election this conversation is going no where, we will have our day on Tuesday. Regardless of the outcome you will not hear a word from me, please do the same. Have a nice day and a nice life, sir. :wave:

Spell, looks like we will have to agree to disagree on this one too.
I don't approve of the government conducting witch hunts into the lives of private citizens based on their political affiliation. It is surpising to me that all Americans don't find common ground on this issue.

Evidently, you seem to suggest that it is okay to do that if the private citizen gets famous somehow. We will just agree to disagree.

We can respectfully disagree on this, but again I would ask what the press has done that rises to the level of a "witch hunt?" What has been reported about 'Joe' that isn't, in fact, the truth?

Remember, he was initially presented to the public as something different than he truly was. In the final debate, McCain taked about him being a "small business owner" who would be affected by Obama's tax rates and even congratulated him on "being rich." Perhaps it was just a matter of lax research on the McCain camp's part, but the reality is that Joe isn't even close to being the person described. He doesn't own a business...isn't remotely close to the income level described...and in fact doesn't even have a plumbing license. In the intense scrutiny of a presidential campaign, it's completely unrealistic to expect the press to simply acquiese to faulty information such as that---nor should they, in my opinion. I would expect no less if Obama introduced the same character and made the same false claims about him.

Okay, now then would go and vote for me in something nonpolitical that I think will contribute to helping to boost the South Florida economy as well as the economy of the nation? :):cheers:

No matter! That contest is b.s. that I take the time for anyway. I've been very busy already updating several Miami threads with some of my best pics in the High-Rises section because I was asked to do that, and I'm helping to improve the economy without any government programs. Roark should be proud of me! When somebody from somewhere else sees my pics and says "Miami looks fantastic", I know I have achieved what I set out to do, to make Miami look fantastic to other parts of the country and to the rest of the world whereby we might see more skyline in the future and I certainly want more skyline. Definitely on a mission here! :):banana::cheers:

Spell, looks like we will have to agree to disagree on this one too.
I don't approve of the government conducting witch hunts into the lives of private citizens based on their political affiliation. It is surpising to me that all Americans don't find common ground on this issue.

Evidently, you seem to suggest that it is okay to do that if the private citizen gets famous somehow. We will just agree to disagree.

Hello my fellow Miami friends!!! Roark u too even though we have had some distant disagreements. Right now I'm having a moment of clarity and realize that we are all in this together hoping the best for our great country!!! So I won't be confrontational. With that said, I would like to point out that the McCain camp has recently used the media and government computers to investigate Obama's aunt. Seems to me that the shoe is on the other foot now. Okay so you say she isn't a citizen. But the same intention underlies the actions taken by the McCain camp. Snooping into someone's life, if that's what you want to call it. I say it's only natural that someone is looked into when someone is brought to such a high attention (like mentioned in a debate). In many regards its worse on McCain's side (in my opinion) because she wasn't brought up in a debate like "Joe the plumber". This suggests that McCain's people have taken upon themselves to dig into personal lives connected to Obama. If you want to say looking into "joe the plumber's" personal life is a violation of the constitution, then you now have to acknowledge that both parties are guilty. See I won't be naive like someone on here whose name rhymes with dork. I know the stakes (and money) involved will lead both campaign's to do whatever it takes to win. Peace dudes!!!

^^ And to begin with it was the Domocratic Party of Ohio that researched that joke of a plumber, NOT the Obama Campaign. :okay:

Joe the plumber is famous. What a luck.

Joe the plumber is famous. What a luck.

Yea, I heard he's going on a date with Tina Gabriel now too. Hehehe.

I feel sorry for Tina. From being maltreated and abused to that? with joe?

I feel sorry for Tina. From being maltreated and abused to that? with joe?

I think she likes that stuff. Joe is gonna smack her upside her head with his plunger.

Voted this morning, took me about an hour and a half. I got there at 10:15 and got out at around 11:45. I figured 10 would be the time with the shortest lines (after the morning rush, before the lunchtime and after work rushes).

I voted this morning too at Tamiami Park. I got there right at 7am. I waited about an hour, more or less. I would have waited longer, but for some reason there were substantially more people with last names beginning with the letters A through G, so I got to skip ahead of them.

There were very few supporters who came out, and not a single exit poll interviewer. There was, however, a truck selling snow cones :)

I was lucky. Working the night shift on my job, I was able to go at 3:00 pm, and there was no line.

We can respectfully disagree on this, but again I would ask what the press has done that rises to the level of a "witch hunt?" What has been reported about 'Joe' that isn't, in fact, the truth? You didn't read the article I guess.
Again (and again), it is the GOVERNMENT invistigating a private citizen because of the private citizen's political affiliation that disgusts me.

Your facts are incorrect about the initial exchange, but that is background noise.

I don't think the GOVERNMENT should investigate private citizens because of their political affiliation. Whether they are famous or not famous.

We can agree to disagree. I'm astounded that Americans are now okay with that kind of investigation, but hey, things are changing. By any means necessary seems to be the new rule of the day.

Roark should be proud of me! When somebody from somewhere else sees my pics and says "Miami looks fantastic", I know I have achieved what I set out to do, to make Miami look fantastic to other parts of the country and to the rest of the world whereby we might see more skyline in the future and I certainly want more skyline. Yeah, absoulutely! Keep up the good work. You have a passion for it and it makes you happy. If you can serve others with your passion, you are sure to find happiness and some financial wealth.

^^ And to begin with it was the Domocratic Party of Ohio that researched that joke of a plumber, NOT the Obama Campaign. :okay:No, it wasn't. Read the articles. It was government agencies in Ohio. The Government...
Yeah...it's exhausting.

With that said, I would like to point out that the McCain camp has recently used the media and government computers to investigate Obama's aunt. Really? Absolutely disgusting if true.
Do you have a source for that?
Barrack wrote about his dear Aunt Zaitouny (sp?) in his book.
She lives in government subsidized housing in South Boston. 4 years ago, she was supposed to have left the USA because she did not win her deportation case.
Bless Obama. He was kind enough to return his Aunt's campaign contribution. You can't donate to Presidential Campaign if you aren't a citizen. A model of compassion....write that "you are your brother's keeper" in a book, earn $4.5 million and let your Aunt live in government housing.

But without a question, when the government investigates private citizen's it has all the markings Communism, and it is ridiculous.

Voted this morning, took me about an hour and a half. I got there at 10:15 and got out at around 11:45. I figured 10 would be the time with the shortest lines (after the morning rush, before the lunchtime and after work rushes). No kidding? I voted at 10 am at Miami Beach City Hall...no line. Nada.
In fact, the government opened up the parking lot for free! I thought, oh boy, it's happening already!!! Everything is free!!!!
Okay, I'll try it...give me some freebees as long as you soak all those rich people in order to pay for it.
It reminds me of the sign the Thomas Sewell wrote about on the Used Car Sales Lot,
"We cheat the other guy, and pass the savings on to you".

OBAMA WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

OBAMA WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Yes he did. Now let's build some skyscrapers!

Yeah, absoulutely! Keep up the good work. You have a passion for it and it makes you happy. If you can serve others with your passion, you are sure to find happiness and some financial wealth.

Hopefully Chrysalis will produce and distribute my music video, now that this damn campaign is over. I just hate all the negativisim. At least let me have the rights to do it myself. Jeez! I'd like to at least view my own work myself without having to play it in my head all the time. :)

Thsi thread has to be close now. There is nothing more to talk about.

Thsi thread has to be close now. There is nothing more to talk about.Au Contrere! Miami politics goes on 24/7, the Pres. election is like St. Patricks day, all the rookies come out for it, there are plenty more fireworks in this town all year around, it just doesn't gather as much of a crowd...

The country has spoken and I thank God on the fact that Barack Obama is the PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA!
:dance:

My friends the world has changed for the BETTER. Many do not realize how monumental this election was for the country and the world. We are going to wake up to a better country, not a perfect, but a better country. All problems will not be resolved instantly but we will finally be going in the right direction.

I will concede that John McCain is not a bad person in fact he is a pretty decent person. Unfortunately he associated, surrounded and took advise from the WORST people he could possibly do so from. John McCain the man was a Maverick but his "need" to win led him to unfortunate decisions; among them his VP choice as well as his several flips and poor judgment choices.

I personally thank John McCain for what he has done for this country in his youth but the better man won the race!

:cheers::):banana:;):bowtie::carrot::hug::angel::tongue2::grouphug::Dm)):fart::pepper::dance::dance2::booze::baeh3::guns1::cucumber::naughty::cheers1::angel1::master::eat::horse::hi::rofl::yes::laugh::tongue4::kiss::colgate:



:okay:

Just got back from 49th street here in Hialeah, it looks like the Heat or Marlins just won a championship! Honkings, traffic, crowds on the sidewalk, cops, people on cars. It was pretty crazy! I dont think anyother man could have done that. Hopefully some pictures end up online. Now im seeing on TV, Seattle is going bananas! (wonder why?) :lol:
Historic, Amazing, Inspiring, its just an awesome moment!

Thank you Florida.

Thank you Pennsylvania.

Thank you America for making a very real break from the past.

I don't expect miracles and I don't think Obama is a messiah. The world doesn't work like that.

But last night represented an amazing moment in American history...even the most hardened McCain supporter has to acknowledge that. Let us all try to move forward TOGETHER.

hip hip hurray!!!!!!!!!!!
Any pictures of celebrations around the area??

POST POST POST POST THEM!!Ganna check the herald.

Unfortunately he associated, surrounded and took advise from the WORST people he could possibly do so from. John McCain the man was a Maverick but his "need" to win led him to unfortunate decisions; among them his VP choice as well as his several flips and poor judgment choices.McCain has always taken advice from people to the left and the center. He has made that the hallmark of his career.
He is not very Conservative, and in my opinion, the best decision that he made in the Campaign was his VP choice. At the time of the choice, there was an energy crisis, and the Senate had a 15% approval rating. His VP choice immediately took the "Change" issue away, and immediately gave more crediblitiy to McCain's liberal energy policy (specifically, Cap and Trade, and specifically, not drilling in ANWR).

This is certainly a wake up call for the Conservative Americans and you can believe that they will not have another centrist candidate in the GOP if they plan on winning a Presidential election.

I pray that my new President doesn't raise taxes on anyone during what looks like an impending recession!

In the meantime, this looks a lot like the Clinton '92 victory (sans Perot), I hope President Obama can make some improvements in the first two years of his term.

Hello fellow SSC friends. Don't we live in a great country or what? That's all I have to say.

Hello fellow SSC friends. Don't we live in a great country or what? That's all I have to say.

:okay:

Hello fellow SSC friends. Don't we live in a great country or what? That's all I have to say.

I'm not at all embarrassed to say I shed a few tears last night. As a guy in my 40's I never, ever thought I would see this day.

Obama is inheriting a mess of colossal proportions but every journey begins with a first step. I am hopeful, excited, and inspired (and damn right I'm going to drive down to D.C. for the Inaugural!)

Regardless of where any of us fall on the political spectrum, that was truly history we witnessed last night.

I'm not at all embarrassed to say I shed a few tears last night. As a guy in my 40's I never, ever thought I would see this day.
Obama is inheriting a mess of colossal proportions but every journey begins with a first step. I am hopeful, excited, and inspired (and damn right I'm going to drive down to D.C. for the Inaugural!)

Regardless of where any of us fall on the political spectrum, that was truly history we witnessed last night.

My best friend and surrogate mother called me to share this day with me. She is a white woman in her 80s who comes from a well-to-do family, but who became a social worker and counselor because of the injustices in the world she saw going on around her. Btw, Spell, remember I'm in my 50s, which is another thing I once thought I'd never live to see. :lol:

I'm not at all embarrassed to say I shed a few tears last night. As a guy in my 40's I never, ever thought I would see this day.

Obama is inheriting a mess of colossal proportions but every journey begins with a first step. I am hopeful, excited, and inspired (and damn right I'm going to drive down to D.C. for the Inaugural!)

Regardless of where any of us fall on the political spectrum, that was truly history we witnessed last night.

I was in an Obama campaign office and at 11 on the dot it was announced on MSNBC and the office just went crazy. People were crying, hugging strangers, cheering, on the floor, it got me very emotional and it took a time to take in the moment.
Today I got the last Miami Herald paper in the Publix near my home, they flew off the shelf, the herald had to do some more late today. :lol:
Im working with a friend to go to the inauguration in January, we'll see how that works out.

Something pretty crazy was how the campaign was able to get out the vote in Miami-Dade and Orange county and resulting in nearly 40%-60% win for him, when 4 years ago it was exactly 50-50 in orange and pretty close in Dade.

I can't believe there were retarded morons who prefered McSame just because of his policy on gay people. How detestable!!!

This Miami Herald Gallery shows how big this is.
http://www.miamiherald.com/924

Pair of Jaguars call Metro Zoo Home?

Pair of Jaguars call Metro Zoo Home?

This was really the most exciting subplot of the election season. For a minute it looked like we were just gonna get one jaguar, but it looks like the youth vote really turned out for this one. I never thought I would see the day where Metro Zoo got a pair of jaguars. I'm not embarrassed to say I shed a few tears over this one.

I am super excited that Obama won, but I am quite disheartened that Amendment 2 passed and it looks like Prop 8 will pass in California. For me, it feels like we took one step forward and one step backward.
I'm also a little disappointed that the Diaz-Balarts retained their seats.

Amendement 2 is not going to pass that easily. Now we are taking it to court to ban it. :)

Pair of Jaguars call Metro Zoo Home?

Look around, scroll down, and click. :okay:

I am super excited that Obama won, but I am quite disheartened that Amendment 2 passed and it looks like Prop 8 will pass in California. For me, it feels like we took one step forward and one step backward.
I'm also a little disappointed that the Diaz-Balarts retained their seats.

Totally agree on all counts

I am super excited that Obama won, but I am quite disheartened that Amendment 2 passed and it looks like Prop 8 will pass in California. For me, it feels like we took one step forward and one step backward.
I'm also a little disappointed that the Diaz-Balarts retained their seats.

A lot of people just aren't ready for too much change at once.

I'm very excited the jaguars clawed their way to victory.

Disappointed with the Amendment 2 vote and the Diaz-Balarts. Those guys were already totally marginal reps---now they're going to be out in Siberia in terms of relevance. Ah, well...can't win 'em all.

With that said, I am once again headed down to South Florida for a few days (going to the Dolphins game Sunday as well)...see you fellas next week.

2001
lZiHN3z2o08

Fast forward 7 years and we are now hated by the world and ridiculed for being American. Last night that might just have changed. Its incredible how this election is being covered around the world, just as much as if it was their elections and Barack Obama is widely seen world wide as the bright future for America and in the last couple of hours America has once again proved itself the great nation we all knew we were all along. This is just a small aspect for some but one nonetheless, his Presidency will ultimately tell how the world reacts and more importantly where this country goes. Its not so much the tears and affection, just the unity and passion we all shared and could easily do again.
When Obama won people took to the streets everywhere from New York, Seattle, Atlanta, and down to little Hialeah and Little Havana. Across the borders and seas in Sydney, Tokyo, Berlin and the tiny village of Nyang’oma Kogelo. No other person could have done this to the country or the world.
No one should expect him to really flip washington over and shake off all the crap, its just the time in history in which he has been elected that makes it that much better.

I think the craziest result was that amendment 1 failed to pass. This was a simple procedural step to remove an outdated and unenforced law that says that immigrants can't own property in Florida. I wonder how many immigrants voted to not get rid of the law thinking it meant only illegal aliens rather than ALL immigrants. What does that ammendment failing to pass say about Florida's voters?

I'm very excited the jaguars clawed their way to victory.

Disappointed with the Amendment 2 vote and the Diaz-Balarts. Those guys were already totally marginal reps---now they're going to be out in Siberia in terms of relevance. Ah, well...can't win 'em all.

With that said, I am once again headed down to South Florida for a few days (going to the Dolphins game Sunday as well)...see you fellas next week.

On the Diaz-Balart issue, I think it says alot to thier lack of popularity that even in districts that they specifically carved out for themselves to assure overwhelming victories and with all the advantages that incumbancy gives (when was the last time ANY incumbant politician in Miami-Dade lost re-election?) the still just barely squeeked by. Especially Mario only winning 53% to 47%.

I think the craziest result was that amendment 1 failed to pass. This was a simple procedural step to remove an outdated and unenforced law that says that immigrants can't own property in Florida. I wonder how many immigrants voted to not get rid of the law thinking it meant only illegal aliens rather than ALL immigrants. What does that ammendment failing to pass say about Florida's voters?

It does not say anything bad about Florida voters, but about the people who wrote that disastrous paragraph of an amendment. I had to go online and go to the Miami Herald to find out what amendment 1 was about. The only good thing is that it has never nor will ever be enforced. Also that if anyone wants they could challenge it in court.

Miami Mayor Manny Diaz 'in the mix' for Obama post
BY MICHAEL VASQUEZ
mrvasquez@MiamiHerald.com

Miami Mayor Manny Diaz -- engineer of downtown's building boom, president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors, supporter of President-elect Barack Obama -- may soon add a new title for his résumé: member of Obama's administration.

City Hall has been abuzz this week with word that Diaz is being considered for a high-level post with the new president. Obama's transition team did not respond to a phone call or e-mail requesting comment, but Diaz Tuesday evening confirmed that a relocation to Washington is possible.

''It's nice to be in the mix; it feels good,'' Diaz said. ``It's an honor.''

The Obama transition team has announced plans to create a new department -- the White House Office of Urban Policy -- that could be a good fit for Diaz, given his position as head of the U.S. Conference of Mayors and tenure in one of the nation's signature cities.

Diaz said he did not know what federal position the Obama team may be considering him for, but he did not rule out any job.

''The country is going through very challenging times right now,'' Diaz said. ``But at the same time that means there's huge opportunities, and you know how I love opportunities.''

Originally a Hillary Clinton supporter, Diaz, a registered independent, threw his support to Obama in the general election. As mayor of the biggest city in the most populous region of the nation's largest swing state, that mattered.

The Cuban-American and bilingual Diaz provided Obama another voice through which to reach Florida's Hispanic voters. When Obama opted to speak entirely in Spanish for one TV ad, Diaz was part of the Obama team's conference call with reporters. The mayor hailed the ad as unprecedented.

Obama won a majority of Florida's Hispanic vote statewide -- something no Democratic presidential candidate had accomplished since exit polling of Hispanics first began in the 1980s. Obama also outperformed Republican candidate Sen. John McCain among Hispanics nationally by more than a 2-1 margin.

Now, as Obama creates the administration team to help him govern, including Hispanics will likely be a priority.

There's another, distinctly local, element of intrigue regarding Diaz's future.

Should Diaz be offered a position by Obama -- and should he accept it -- Miami's 2009 mayoral race would be turned upside down.

Miami commissioners would be charged with appointing a replacement to serve the last year of Diaz's term, with that person perhaps running next November to keep the seat.

One city commissioner, Tomás Regalado, is already an announced candidate for mayor, while another, Joe Sanchez, is expected to also jump in. Should either candidate receive the appointment to mayor, they would march toward next year's election armed with the advantage of incumbency.

Miami's legal department, according to several city sources, has already been studying the legal requirements of filling Diaz's seat, and how an appointment would be handled.

Diaz himself said he is unaware of the city putting together any such plans.

The Office of Urban Policy? This could be big not just for Manny but for Miami. :cheers:

The Office of Urban Policy? This could be big not just for Manny but for Miami. :cheers:

Kudos to Diaz for being considered for such a position. It's funny that so many assumed the guy was part of the Cuban-American Republican apparatus just a few years ago. Nope!

If it happens, we'll see how it works out for Miami, however. No doubt there would be some fine candidates for mayor but seeing an old-school name like Regalado in there would be a huge step backwards, imo.

It scares the shit out of me that man is running! Regalado is going back about 20 years!

About Manny, he surely is the best thing to happen to city hall in a while, he brings some national respect to a city goverment that was the laughing stock of the world 10 years ago.

BTW, the whole Republican Governors Conference thingy is in town at the Intercontinental Hotel and the media is doing a bunch of live shots interviewing these governors at bayfront park, just love the backdrop. :lol:

..

I wonder what Diaz getting the secretary of transportation job would mean for South Florida's beleaguered transit system?

Either way its two sections in which Miami is lagging incredibly, so good to hear, apparently Obama is fond of Mr. Diaz.

Should it happen, what would happen in regards to the vacancy created by Mayor Diaz departure?

Should it happen, what would happen in regards to the vacancy created by Mayor Diaz departure?

Hopefully the vacancy would attract some good candidates. Regalado is definitely NOT in that category, even if he might be an early favorite.

I'll cross my fingers that Miami doesn't elect such a worthless twit after making real progress the past few years.

...

Uh oh...if people think that Miami is lagging incredibly in Housing and Transportation, then why chose the laggard for Washington DC?
What is the real story here, is it that Miami isn't really that bad in housing and transportation and Mayor Diaz is a good choice, or is it that selecting a laggard for these posts is just a bad decision and politics as usual?
I love the work that Mayor Diaz has done for the City, he is good and effective leader and a genuinely nice guy.

I don't think it's so much making Many Diaz out to be a laggard than it is stating that this might be a way he could do even more for Miami.

Diaz would probably find himself unemployed pretty quickly if he showed favoritism towards Miami. That's not what the job is about.

That said, while I wish him luck in moving up the political chain I actually think it might be better for Miami if he could remain as mayor---if only because it would blunt the prospects of an idiot like Regalado moving into the slot.

...

Space mentioned that he believed Miami doesn't handle housing or transportation well. If that is the case, then why would our President hire him for either of those jobs?

Either way its two sections in which Miami is lagging incredibly, so good to hear, apparently Obama is fond of Mr. Diaz.

Roark, this is who said what was said and this is what he said!^^ It doesn't necessarily mean that Manny Diaz isn't handling housing or transportation, especially if they are problems he inherited that lagged years before he was elected.

Diaz would probably find himself unemployed pretty quickly if he showed favoritism towards Miami. That's not what the job is about.

That said, while I wish him luck in moving up the political chain I actually think it might be better for Miami if he could remain as mayor---if only because it would blunt the prospects of an idiot like Regalado moving into the slot.

All things considered, I'm inclined to agree with you,

...

Good, thanks, who said it doesn't change the idea at all, but thanks for the correction.
.

But Roark, what you seem to think is the idea is not exactly what he said. What you think he might have meant is not exactly what was said.

Be careful about making these "thinkers" accountable for the things they were told to think in the books that they were assigned in class. If you challenge their thinking, then suddenly you are patronizing them. And if you use their EXACT quotes, you are spinning their words.

Roark, this is what you said ^^on the Dade's Urban Development Boundary thread, but spinning the words of Hia-leah JDM seems to me to be exactly what you're doing, and when I've challenged your thinking before, I was told that my "misinterpretation and analysis" was based on my "preconceived notions" when I quoted you verbatim and asked you if this is what you meant. You said nothing, I guess because when I challenged your thinking, you didn't know what to say. It brings to mind my favorite old southern adage: "The pot called the kettle black." The meaning being you are just as guilty of the things you accused other people of if not more, and I think this is something you need to work on.

Good, thanks, who said it doesn't change the idea at all, but thanks for the correction.
I think that Miami does a good job with transportation (not perfect, but better than most cities). As for the extra penny sales tax (which i was emphatically against, because it was unfair and would likely be mispent), Mayor Diaz pushed for it aggressively. Very aggressively, and not surprisingly to some people, the money was mispent and the extra tax did not achieve the results that it was supposed to achieve. That is arguably his Transportation Legacy.
If Mayor Diaz is selected for the new cabinet for Transportation, then it will send a very clear message that the new Administration is not about change, but rather, business as usual.
Let's hope that the change allows our great Mayor to find an appropriate place in DC where his great talents can be best utilized for our country.
Housing would be a better choice I think, but similar issues with corruption and graft are evident under his watch.
It would be nice to keep him here in Miami, but he will term out soon, and he has been working toward a Federal postion for several years. He has done a great job of leading Miami in positive direction, and he is a very nice guy, I'm sure that he will have a very nice set up after the Mayor gig comes to a close.

I never said Manny has been doing a bad job, I actually really like the guy, but nothing that he does can change the fact that Miami has horrible transportation and high profile housing issues, doesn't have to do anything with Manny, I agree he's done alot of great things in the right direction, the fact still remains Miami lags in both categories. :cheers:

^^ With this county's diluted centers of powers (both economic and political) can any one individual or heck group do anything to fix that? I would take all of the dozens of cites,towns, municipalities and the county and even probably the state to fix that.

I agree! :lol:

...

...can you just focus on the IDEAS and not on me personally?

Certainly we can focus on the IDEAS, Roark, as long as you get the IDEAS right as well as who really said what.

Although my point might have been subtle before, I'll lay it out so that Quantum can understand what I'm saying.

I understand perfectly well what you are saying.

...Respectfully submitted Quantum, did you go to school where they teach the Socratic Method or difference between fact and opinion?

Did you?

Without getting into specific items, can I suggest that many here don't need to be "explained" anything...particularly in a somewhat patronizing tone that suggests they don't 'get it?'

It's merely a difference of opinion and in my years of posting here if I've learned one thing in abundance it's that nobody here is an expert on anything---despite no lack of intelligent people with compelling viewpoints. A little less 'keeper of the truth' hubris and less patronizing (which is often a sign of insecurity, anyway) would lead to healthier debate.

Just my two cents.

Hmmm...I might be stoned. Quantum...that post was almost like Shakespere, except that you really aren't saying anything profound. I take it back, it is nothing like Shakespere.


Shakespeare (you need to continue to work on your spelling also, Roark) from Hamlet: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Shakespeare (you need to continue to work on your spelling also, Roark) from Hamlet: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Excellent work Quantum!
You are nominated the Official SSC spell checker!

if I've learned one thing in abundance it's that nobody here is an expert on anything
Like anyone could even know that.
That is most certainly your opinion, and not a fact. I'll bet that that are some talented people here that are expert in a wide variety of things.

Quantum has a thourough knowledge of classical music, he may well be and expert. I am most certainly an expert high stakes Robotron player and will take any and all challengers.

Speak for yourself Spell, if you feel that you are not an expert on anything, then so be it.

I thought it was pretty clear I was referring to being an expert on the sort of items we talk about here---not classical music, horticulture, or training chihuahuas to dance the samba (although I support such efforts).

In the future, I will try to explain things in BOLD CAPS so they are a little more clear...:lol:

I thought it was pretty clear I was referring to being an expert on the sort of items we talk about here---not classical music, horticulture, or training chihuahuas to dance the samba (although I support such efforts).

In the future, I will try to explain things in BOLD CAPS so they are a little more clear...:lol:

But Spell, even if you explained something as clearly as possible in BOLD CAPS, it will still be your fault that Roark didn't understand it because you still didn't explain it right.

some people on here could claim to be expert masturbators :banana:
no seriously who has the right to call anyone on anything here :ohno:

...

no seriously who has the right to call anyone on anything here :ohno: Exactly...it is a bit silly. It seems so simple, read the words posted, comprehend the ideas and comment on them.
It isn't personal. Read and get some understanding.

The point is the same, If Miami is sooooooo challenged on Transportation and Housing, Then is it an appropriate appointment for the President to bring in the Man responsible?

The question has been presented several times, with no response. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?


Since you asked...

The entire premise of there being a local "man responsible" for huge items such as transportation and housing is specious and simplistic. No city aside from the few global giants that have economies and tax bases that rival some countries can even dream of tackling such items in a truly meaningful way. Manny Diaz could no sooner find a way to fund Metrorail extensions than launch a manned excursion to Mars. The money simply doesn't exist.

It doesn't mean Diaz isn't a damn good mayor or a thoroughly decent man. I think he's both. It's simply a reflection of reality---that the ticket price for such items far outstrips the financial ability of a city like Miami (just like virtually every other American city) and cannot be addressed without VERY significant federal involvement.

That entails far more than one guy---even a really good one like Diaz. The argument as presented is erroneous in its premise and completely misunderstands the abilities/power that the mayor of Miami has at his disposal. As such, it has no bearing on whether or not he is qualified for any role at the federal level he may be considered for.

Quantum has a thourough knowledge of classical music, he may well be and expert.

Thanks, Roark! Pretty well-versed in the subject with some formal musical training, but not an expert. :cheers:

...

I thought this article would be of particular interest to the Miami forummers, since we've had this discussion before. Left Lane Slowpokes Drive You Crazy? (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourCar/left-lane-slowpokes-drive-you-crazy.aspx) It discusses what states are doing to deal with people driving below the speed limit in the left lane and impeding other drivers from passing. Florida is discussed.

Well, it's official. To all the forumers here who are constantly yapping about how Miami has the most beautiful people in the world, you might be surprised to find out that we now lay claim to a second title. Not only are we beautiful, we're also enormous!

Miami is the Fattest City in America. Observe:

http://www.mensfitness.com/images/mf/209625/13703.jpg

With all due respect to Quantum, that may be the best skyline shot I've seen to date.

Anyway, here's the article, you lil' fatties:
The Fittest and Fattest in America 2009 (http://www.mensfitness.com/lifestyle/215)

Note: I didn't know where to put this, but since this used to be the Bayside Lounge, I figured here was as good as any.

Atleast we're still America's cleanest city! :)

^^I don't buy it. They put us in second this year just to give someone else a moment in the spotlight. They just don't want the other cities to complain. I don't mind either, let them have it for a year. You'll see next year it'll be us again.

Now how's that for being biased of Miami? lol

http://www.mensfitness.com/images/mf/209625/13703.jpg

With all due respect to Quantum, that may be the best skyline shot I've seen to date.

You know, without the guy and the tree and with Roberto's telephoto lens, it could very well be the best skyline shot we've seen. It looks to be from the west side of Key Biscayne. If it were not so far away, the best shot I have taken would have been from the Cape Florida lighthouse because you can see the spread of the skyline from the Rickenbacker Causeway to the Tuttle with a minimum of buildings blocked by other buildings.

If it were not so far away, the best shot I have taken would have been from the Cape Florida lighthouse because you can see the spread of the skyline from the Rickenbacker Causeway to the Tuttle with a minimum of buildings blocked by other buildings.

Did it have a fat guy in the forefront?

I live in Miami and I am fit as well as the other swimmers, triathletes, etc., I train with. They should take into consideration that there are other sports other than running which help keep us fit.
BTW body fat % is around 5-6%.

Miami is one big PARK that is why most of us dont use the bike trails and other amenities... we have pools in out backyards and gyms in our condos
they should acutally do a census of what percentage of people are overwieght or obese in miami... the number would be very low.

...

Continuing the discussion of ridiculous and pointless magazine lists, Im proud to say I live in one of America's "10 Most Boring Cities!" Hialeah, FL the city full of colorful charaters and homes, the city where driving is a daily adventure and street vendors constantly hassle you day to day is "boring"!?!?!? Really? :lol:

http://www.forbes.com/media/2008/12/10/media-newspapers-news-biz-media-cx_jz_1210boringcities.html

This CBS4 report says it all best. :rofl:

http://cbs4.com/video/?id=69145@wfor.dayport.com

No offense to those that live in Hialeah, but Hialeah has some of the tackiest homes I have ever seen. Who told people that it's okay to put a fountain, gates, and a cement statue of Zeus in their front yard? I mean come on, it's a run-of-the-mill suburban home, not Versailles. Not to mention all the bright colors that don't even match. If people were to simply just paint their homes to some neutral tones and take out the angel statues and fountains, Hialeah's homes would actually be kind of nice.

How about the disgusting bars on the windows and doors, the paved yards, and horrible zoning? :lol: This of course is not all of Hialeah but its some of the things that make it Hialeah.

How about the disgusting bars on the windows and doors, the paved yards, and horrible zoning? :lol: This of course is not all of Hialeah but its some of the things that make it Hialeah.

Your mission is to get that skyline shot from your friends place in Key Biscayne. We must have the shot! It could well be the best we've seen yet. Call your friend, give him my phone number, and let him know I'm coming then. We must have the shot! :banana:

Miami is one big PARK that is why most of us dont use the bike trails and other amenities... we have pools in out backyards and gyms in our condos
they should acutally do a census of what percentage of people are overwieght or obese in miami... the number would be very low.

(61.5% of Miami residents are heavy enough to increase their risk for weight-related health problems).

Not low at all, maybe it's got something to do with the fact we have 3 times the average amount of fast food restaurants? Scary.

i have over 30 cousins and only one of them is overweight
everyone else is inshape there spouses are also inshape
overall its a family of 100+ with kids and only one overweight person

i dont know where the 61% figure comes from.
all my friends are inshape only 2 of them which i know are FAT
really next time you are out at walmart, publix or anywhere else i would like to know what people see (observe) surveys are doctored to make one city desirable and another undesirable.

I don't know how seriously anyone should take surveys such as this one. Honestly, I've lived all over the country and really don't think of Miami as being "fatter" OR "fitter" than anyplace else I've lived for the simple reason that it is neither. Plenty of both, just like anyplace else. It's not like some cities are endowed with physical Gods and Goddesses while others have a bunch of obese slobs stuffing their faces with Big Macs, y'know?

The only thing I would say with some degree of certainty is that EVERY American city has considerably more "fat" people than what you see in most of the rest of the world.

luckily our latin ratio is bigger to make us slimmer...

It's hard to determine the percentage of a cities fat people. However, I would bet that Miami has less fat people % than Green Bay, Wisconsin for example. Maybe it's because they eat more milk and cheese based products. Or maybe the frigid cold keeps them indoors where they eat more and not exercise. All I know is there is a higher percentage of fat people up there in the cold midwest states.

Who do you guys think will be Miami's next mayor? Who do you think it should be (or who would you like it to be)?

Who do you guys think will be Miami's next mayor? Who do you think it should be (or who would you like it to be)?

Amy Winehouse. :cheers:

Amy Winehouse. :cheers:

Nah, it's between you and Roark.

The two major candidates are a depressing thought

Providing that this guy doesn't have to resign, or get indicted for his part in the Senate seat debacle, what do you think our President Obama's right hand man from the Chicago school means when he says,
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste," Rahm Emanuel?

I take it as an opportunity to do things such as pass certain legislation that would inhibit something like this from happening again. In other words learn from mistakes made so that the crisis wasn't in vain (or something like that). Of course it could mean something else. He could have had a slip of his tongue, but I'm not going to be cycnical about it at this point. I get the impression you are being cynical about it since you prefaced the question with his alleged involvement in the senate seat debale. Are you? I can't really tell. Or did I miss your point altogether? What are you getting at?

What Makes 100%? What does it mean to give MORE than 100%? Ever wonder about those people who say they are giving more than 100%? We have all been to those meetings where someone wants you to give over 100%. How about achieving 103%? What makes up 100% in life?

Here's a little mathematical formula that might help you answer these questions:

If:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

is represented as:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26.

Then:

H-A-R-D-W-O-R-K
8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 = 98%

and

K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E
11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5 = 96%

But ,

A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E
1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 = 100%

And,

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T
2+21+12+12+19+8+9+20 = 103%

AND, look how far ass kissing will take you.

A-S-S-K-I-S-S-I-N-G
1+19+19+11+9+19+19+9+14+7 = 118%

So, one can conclude with mathematical certainty, that while Hard work and Knowledge will get you close, and Attitude will get you there, its the Bullshit and Ass kissing that will put you over the top.

Now THAT'S funny. :lol:

^^HAHA i really like the effort and time you put into that.

I don't know how seriously anyone should take surveys such as this one.

You hear me, Dez. You will take these surveys seriously, and you'll like it. Now I don't want to hear another peep out of you. You should count yourself lucky that you live in Philly because apparently Miami is the ninth most miserable city in the America! http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/06/most-miserable-cities-business-washington_0206_miserable_cities_slide_10.html?thisSpeed=15000 I guess that makes sense given how fat we've all become.

You hear me, Dez. You will take these surveys seriously, and you'll like it. Now I don't want to hear another peep out of you. You should count yourself lucky that you live in Philly because apparently Miami is the ninth most miserable city in the America! http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/06/most-miserable-cities-business-washington_0206_miserable_cities_slide_10.html?thisSpeed=15000 I guess that makes sense given how fat we've all become.

On my trips back, I have never experienced anything other than unbridled joy and a palpable sense of esprit de corps while stuck in traffic on the Palmetto or waiting in line behind some dope at Publix, so I must also reject this latest survey.

Haven't trusted any of them since Ladies Home Journal lambasted Enid as America's "Most Flatulent City." Do you have any idea how much that hurt the 2048 Olympic bid?

As for Philly, I noticed that the famous sculpture in Love Park made the SSC banner today. As befits the name, Love Park is the bustling site of much public intercourse...especially late at night. Indeed, this is a happy city.

On my trips back, I have never experienced anything other than unbridled joy and a palpable sense of esprit de corps while stuck in traffic on the Palmetto or waiting in line behind some dope at Publix, so I must also reject this latest survey.
Undoubtably! You should reject it!
Big time joy in MIA! Especially if you live downtown...no reason to ever have to be on the Palmetto.
Or South Beach...most people with 10 years + don't know the difference between the Dolphin and the Palmetto and the Shula...or whatever. Seriously, some very happy and involved people (not the ignorance is bliss types) have never ventured west of MIA.
I've invited you a couple of times...next time you are in town, let's roll to some happy places! you won't be disappointed!!!!

I've invited you a couple of times...next time you are in town, let's roll to some happy places! you won't be disappointed!!!!

We WILL do that, no question. I'm also going to force you to have a Guinness or two at Churchills---in the "not so pretty" part of town. But it's fun. :cheers:

Probably won't be down again until May. I'll give you a heads up.

In the meantime, my offer of a free fishing trip outta Haulover stands for ALL of you fellas, if you're ever interested. It's a fun few hours out on the ocean even if the fishing part doesn't interest you. Just p.m. me anytime.

We WILL do that, no question. I'm also going to force you to have a Guinness or two at Churchills?---in the "not so pretty" part of town. But it's fun. :cheers:

In that case, I think I should come along to keep you guys from getting beat up by the Haitians. :lol::cheers:

We WILL do that, no question. I'm also going to force you to have a Guinness or two at Churchills---in the "not so pretty" part of town. But it's fun. IN!

The last time I was there was for my friends CD release party..she is/was great! At the time she was dating Nil Lara and I'd only seen her perform at dinner parties with 10 or 12 people. I love Churchills....and Emil and THE CRAMPS rock the bells as well...
It would be a pleasure to throw back the Black Stuff.

Last weekend Harvey Ruvin gave a talk about the environment.
The most striking thing is that, he (they) don't call it "Global Warming" anymore.
Why not? Could it be that the fact is that the Globe isn't warming?
He called it Climate Change. I spoke with him mono e mono. Oooof...the climate is changing??
Where I grew up, there was always climate change, but we called it Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter.

He did try to scare me though. I'll bet some of the people under 30 years old actually believed him when he said that the sea levels would rise 3 ft in the next 10 years. Doubtful...

And back to the news.....
Global and Northern Hemisphere Tropical Cyclone Activity [still] lowest in 30-years

Tropical cyclone (TC) activity worldwide has completely and utterly collapsed during the past 2 to 3 years with TC energy levels sinking to levels not seen since the late 1970s. This should not be a surprise to scientists since the natural variability in climate dominates any detectable or perceived global warming impact when it comes to measuring yearly integrated tropical cyclone activity. With the continuation (persistence) of colder Pacific tropical sea-surface temperatures associated with the effects of La Nina, the upcoming 2009 Atlantic hurricane season should be above average, as we saw in 2008. Nevertheless, since the Atlantic only makes up 10-15% of overall global TC activity each year (climatological average during the past 30 years), continued Northern Hemispheric and global TC inactivity as a whole likely will continue.


From Climate Audit guest blog posting Scroll down for more

When did the Clerk of Courts become an expert on the subject? I'm gonna go listen to a lecture by Max Mayfield on tort reform.:nuts: Though I do agree with the article, that cyclones have not intensified or increased due to human actions.
I am a firm believer in taking local actions to protect us from storms, the Everglades restoration project, and strengthening Lake Okeechobee's levees are critical. Just as very similar actions in New Orleans were needed and not carried out until Louisiana was made to pay.

Well, whether you are one to believe that climate change or global warming (whatever you prefer to call it) is due to (or accelerated by) mankind, there is no denying that tempatures have been increasing. It is also known that the oxygen levels in the atmosphere have decreased and carbon levels (co2) have risen. It's measurable evidence. Carbon tends to retain heat (greenhouse effect). Studies prove that the higher temperatures are a result of these changes and not because the sun has been more active. So the question is, where does the increase in carbon come from? Scientist unanimously agree that it is due to man-made activities.

When did the Clerk of Courts become an expert on the subject? I'm gonna go listen to a lecture by Max Mayfield on tort reform.:nuts: Though I do agree with the article, that cyclones have not intensified or increased due to human actions.:) It's a great question with a simple answer! He is a politician, not an expert. The people that feed our youth with the Global Warming ideas are Politicians. Except for Al Gore of course, he is an Academy Award Winning Documentarian.
You don't have to be an expert at anything anymore to be an authority, you just need to be smooth in front of a teleprompter.
Harvey is a helluva nice guy and may even believe what he is saying.
I truly like the guy...so much so, I will plug his Global Warming Music Video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRS6LnnBs5s)
I am a firm believer in taking local actions to protect us from storms, the Everglades restoration project, and strengthening Lake Okeechobee's levees are critical. Just as very similar actions in New Orleans were needed and not carried out until Louisiana was made to pay.Agreed! You don't have to give up your SUV to realize that we need to think about clean drinking water, recycling, pollution, etc.
Speaking of Everglades restoration, that same day me and about 100 colleagues planted Mangrove saplings on Virgina Key.
Caring about Global Warming Politics and Caring about the environment are distinctly different things.

Global Warming is based on a bit more scientific knowledge, research and expertise than simply a few politicians "feeding our youth" a political agenda. In just this past week (as reported in the Economist---hardly a liberal mouthpiece) a scientific conference in Copenhagen announced that studies show a northern polar ice melt rate twice what had been previously believed.

Yes, there are surely contrary viewpoints---including some who discount the idea entirely---but the overwhelming conclusion based on many years of research independent of political biases by countless experts is that warming IS occuring at a fairly rapid pace...the only real question being how much man is actively responsible for it.

If anything, much of the "denial" research could be attributed to political and economic biases at least as much---or more---than anything coming from the other side.

I don't pretend to be the least bit expert on any of this but I have company since nobody else here is, either. Unless I'm thoroughly mistaken, none of us research this as a profession.

I'll just leave it with a reminder that 500 years ago the church wasn't too keen on people reading books or using telescopes, either, since the truth wasn't seen as good for business. There's a very long history of mistrusting science and belittling their conclusions as 'radical' even though they usually are proven correct.

Global Warming is based on a bit more scientific knowledge, research and expertise than simply a few politicians "feeding our youth" a political agenda. In just this past week (as reported in the Economist---hardly a liberal mouthpiece) a scientific conference in Copenhagen announced that studies show a northern polar ice melt rate twice what had been previously believed.
They may have discussed the issue in the United States meeting on Global Warming, but that was cancelled do to cold weather.
The main question is: How much evidence to the contrary do you have to see to admit that the Earth isn't warming anymore?
If like Dave Matthews, you say that inordinate snowfalls are a direct result of Global Warming, than there is really no point in the debate.
Yep! I am a firm believer in global warming. There is no question in my mind the the globe warms.
I've lived it Spellbound! Back in Michigan, the ice melted and the water froze. It was amazing!!! Of course, my family have just been farmers,engineers, and inventors. In Florida, my family has only owned busineses and farmed. In the big frost of 1989 (way before Al Gore Jr. had achieved National power and Escalades were ubiquitous) my family's business was nearly wiped out from cooling.

Look I don't or we don't have the credentials of Al Gore Jr., son of a Senator and a ....uh oh...help me out...I don't want to sound stupid...has Al Gore Jr ever had a job other than politician and Academy Award winning "Documentary" Film maker? I only bring that up to fortify my point that the whole "Global Warming" scare is ludicris.

Yes, there are surely contrary viewpoints---including some who discount the idea entirely---but the overwhelming conclusion based on many years of research independent of political biases by countless experts is that warming IS occuring at a fairly rapid pace...the only real question being how much man is actively responsible for it.

but the overwhelming conclusion based on many years of research independent of political biases by countless experts is that warming IS occuring at a fairly rapid pace
For those people that don't hit the bong and then pontificate, let's break it down.
#1 There is NO conclusion, let alone OVERWHELMING conclusion.
#2 Many years...could you enlighten us on the number of years?
#3 Independent of Political Bias...huh? Can you source that please? There is bias on both sides, and that is why people that don't read should watch " An Inconvient Truth" and the "Great Global Warming Swindle". Have you done the same?
#4 The Earth is NOT warming anymore, that is why the POLITICIANS are calling it CLIMATE CHANGE now instead of GLOBAL WARMING. Ya heard!
#5 Rapid pace....see above....or source the "facts".

There is not a question in the skeptics mind that if you continued to call it Global Warming, and science showed that the trend was toward cooling, only the stoners would clutch onto the Global Warming idea.

I don't pretend to be the least bit expert on any of this Fantastic. "I don't pretend to be an expert" But you post the above statements anyway as if you have a clue.

"Overwhelming conclusion", "based on many years", "independent of political bias", "countless experts". And then the Spellbound backtracks with the I don't pretend to be an expert line. Excellent.
Change the bong water and come up with another interesting theory...throw it out as if you know what you are talking about, then, when someone challenges your ideas, back track, hide and try to be friendly.

Forget it....if there is one take away for the Global Warming bus riders...open your mind for second, research all of Al Gore Jr's previous jobs, and ask yourself; How does Al Gore Jr. make a documentary on Global Warming given his previous experience?
Is is possible, maybe slightly possible, that a politician is trying to manipulate me for his own political advantage?

Maybe, just maybe.

My gosh, Roark. Is it even possible do debate you on ANYTHING without you becoming defensive, belligerant, and downright rude?

"Bong water??" I happen to work late, my friend. I'm up at this hour posting because I manage a music venue---a damn good one, btw---and this is when I actually have some free downtime.

But, anyway, if you want to categorize Global Warming as the domain of a few crackpots and Dave Matthews, fine. There's ample fans of that thinking on AM radio every afternoon. Some of 'em also think Barack Obama was born in Kenya. It's an entertaining group of people.

Completely detached from reality, but entertaining.

Either way, I was just hoping for a better conversation. Oh, well.

My gosh, Roark. Is it even possible do debate you on ANYTHING without you becoming defensive, belligerant, and downright rude?Yes.
But, anyway, if you want to categorize Global Warming as the domain of a few crackpots and Dave Matthews, fine. There's ample fans of that thinking on AM radio every afternoon. Some of 'em also think Barack Obama was born in Kenya. It's an entertaining group of people.No, actually, I just asked for you to source your "facts".
Since when was asking for honesty, the truth, our sourcing rude?
Completely detached from reality, but entertaining. I ask you to source your facts, and you call me totally detached from reality. Fantastic. The topic meanders inexplicitly to Kenya and talk radio...uh huh..."completely detached from reality" he calls me.

Again, if you re-read the post, the comments were underlined and numbered so as to keep a very focused and specific conversation.
overwhelming conclusion based on many years of research independent of political biases by countless experts is that warming IS occurring at a fairly rapid pace
Those are all very specific points that you make.
You were hoping for a "better" conversation, and I was hoping for an honest and intelligent conversation with specific facts.

Harvey Ruvin, the Politician, has a music video titled, "Maybe just Maybe".
Al Gore, Jr., the Politician, has a documentary movie titled, "An Inconvenient Truth".
Maybe just maybe, both of these politicians are using certain data to push an agenda.
Recall that when Margaret Thatcher wanted to advance Nuclear Power, and to change the conversation from Global Cooling to Global Warming, she simply hired some scientists and journalists to "prove" the Earth was warming.

The intention isn't to be rude, just on topic and factual. Reread my post...I don't "categorize Global Warming as the domain of a few crackpots" anywhere in the post.
Again (and again, and again) I know that Global warming happens. It's 9am and the Globe will likely be warming up in the next few hours.
I do believe that Man Made CO2 emissions do not contribute to the warming of the globe in way that is significant enough to overpower the natural order of the Planet Earth, and I do believe that politicians are using SOME science to push an agenda that limits economic development, stifles industrialization, grows the size of government, and limits the freedom and liberty of Americans.

It really behooves you to at least understand the argument before the name calling and demonetization begins. Once there is understanding of what the argument is, then check out the other side of your argument, that is a good way to a better conversation. Really, just check out The Great Global Warming Swindle and try to watch it with an open mind. For one thing, you will see specifically and directly how this "overwhelming conclusion" was reached by the IPCC.

Yes.
The intention isn't to be rude, just on topic and factual.

Really?



For those people that don't hit the bong and then pontificate, let's break it down.



Change the bong water and come up with another interesting theory....

As the only member here with over 3,000 posts, I feel it is my domain and my duty to set the record straight. I have done the research myself and have made the following factual findings:

1. Man-made global warming is happening.

2. Man-made global warming is occurring at a relatively slower pace than the man-made warming of the solar system and the universe as a whole.

3. As a result of finding 2, the globe will actually feel relatively cooler in the future than it currently does because of the increased discrepancies between the temperature of the Earth and the temperature of the surrounding galaxy.

4. It is this man-made relative cooling of the globe that is causing an increase in the number of chimpanzee attacks worldwide.

While I am confident that my conclusions are correct, I am open to debating them with any other forumers who have more than 3,000 posts.

^^Global warming, climate change, or whatever you want to call it is being caused by extraterrestrials as a prelude to colonization. Did not you see the movie "The Arrivial?" Look what they did to this poor woman.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3550/3320846769_a97649aa8c_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3550/3320846769_a97649aa8c_o.jpg

As a result of global climate change the entire human race will someday look like this:

http://www.triviatribute.com/images4/ernestborgnine2.jpg