might as well make its own thread

spot the new 160kph track

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4297440&outx=850&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4297444&outx=850&oq=0

looky what we have here:

http://www.vicsig.net/passenger/photos/20040513-dng-vlocity-1102-1202.jpg

thanks to Vicsig (www.vicsig.net)

:)

Look very similar to the new trains for Perth.

not going to be very fast with lots of grades like in shot no. 2. But Victoria is generally pretty flat so I wouldn't imagine so. I suppose hauled passenger trains are coming to an end in Victoria now too...

I've taken the train from Geelong and her's the deal - it is incredible fast until it gets to Werribee - then it crawls all the way into Melbourne (It stops at Werribee, Newport, Footscray & Nth Melbourne) - I reckon it get's held up by the suburban services as there are times when the train stops in the middle of nowhere.

Also - totally unrelated - can any Victorian's confirm 4 me - have Connex taken over the M-Train lines now (I generally take the train from Laverton) all the trains have "Welcome to Connex" on them.

hmmm well for Geelong, that in NSW is typical Interurban (but electric...) and so you take the major suburban stations en route (because you can commute hither and tither rather than staying at least overnight in your destination). For something like Ballarat and Bendigo, I wouldn't expect that number of suburban stops.

Yes the whole suburban network is a Connex job now.

Jimmé what you describe is just that: V/Lines getting stuck behind 'burban services.

not going to be very fast with lots of grades like in shot no. 2. But Victoria is generally pretty flat so I wouldn't imagine so. I suppose hauled passenger trains are coming to an end in Victoria now too...

:rofl:

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4408361&outx=850&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4408360&outx=850&oq=0

:)

pity the Sydney Mainline isn't getting upgraded :(

pics thanks to james_c at railpage (http://www.railpage.com.au/)

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4449562&outx=800&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4449560&outx=800&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4449563&outx=800&oq=0

easily convertible to SG apparently

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4449566&outx=800&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4449549&outx=800&oq=0

The Ballarat line is pretty blooody hilly, as is the Bendigo line. Basically the only truely flat line is the Geelong line. Incredibly windy up to Eureka (Ballarat).

Very cool.

I guess this is another tilt train. If ya want a TGV, then ya gotta have a very flat gradient.

easily convertible to SG apparently

Built at Broadmeadows yeah? I which case they'd have to be because any on-rail testing would have to be done on SG bogies.

The Vic Govt has reiterated its commitment to standardising the Geelong,Ballarat,Maryborough to Mildura track,so I think one will be operating this service,but probably around 2006.

Its not quite shinkansen standard but its ok.Nice to see one of Australia's more progessive states investing money in Rail.NSW what are you thinking?

Its not quite shinkansen standard but its ok.Nice to see one of Australia's more progessive states investing money in Rail.NSW what are you thinking?
Nick I was talking to a friend in Sydney not long back,and asked him about extending heavy rail to Bondi.Apparently the Bondi people do not want it.But it looks like the city will get an extension of the light rail from Central Terminal to Circular Quay.He is on speaking terms with quite a lot of the movers and shakers in Sydney.

^^ how is that relevant to this thread? this thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=18996) and this thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=101560) should be what you're looking for.

back on the topic of RFR: according to a Railpage member, these trains are spec'd to run at 225kph as their maximum speed.

So potentially, given the right conditions / track, we could see a new Australian Rail speed record, current records: http://www.railpage.org.au/record.html

1. '99 QR Tilt - 210kph
2. '92 XPT - 193kph
3. '81 XPT - 183kph

It also begs the question, how far could you push the trains, given Train à Grande Vitesse or equivalent type infrastructure (track + signalling) ? The world's fastest DMU is a Spanish "Talgo" train @ 256kph!

Has anyone travelled all 4 RFR lines before? I've never been outside the metro area on the lines - where's the longest & flattest straight line of track?

Ive been on the Geelong and Ballarat lines and only as far as Castlemaine on the Bendigo line.
Flattest and longest section of straight track I'd guess would be down to Geelong, probably Weribbee-Lara or Corio.

Ballarat starts to wind around after Deer Park, and particuarly after Rockbank.

Bendigo gets all windy from Sunbury, and especially north of Kyneton.

Just looking at the Melways the straighest (visible on the map) looks to be what you said, Werribee - Corio, however it's got that curve shown above, and those grades also pictured above (Little River and Manor).

Warragul - Moe is relatively flat from memory (driving next to the rail lines on the Princes FWY) - but it's got those curves such as that Little River picture.

The longest straight stretch of rail in Victoria is from Lubeck to Wal Wal,(between Murtoa and Stawell) but this track was converted to standard gauge in 1995.It is 17 miles in length.

I guess this is another tilt train. If ya want a TGV, then ya gotta have a very flat gradient.

Nope, it's not a tilt train, though there is a tilt option that can be added later on.

Built at Broadmeadows yeah? I which case they'd have to be because any on-rail testing would have to be done on SG bogies.

Nope, it's being built at Dandenong, same as the NSW Xplorers and Endeavours.

Ballarat starts to wind around after Deer Park, and particuarly after Rockbank.

Yep, it's gotta climb the ranges from Melton most of the way to Ballarat. Not ideal, but it's still far far better than what I grew up with on NSW's V sets. I did Sutherland-North Wollongong daily for two years, and that is painful almost all the way, with the only speedy running being Bulli-Wollongong, and Sutherland-Waterfall. Everything else was pitifully slow.

Bendigo gets all windy from Sunbury, and especially north of Kyneton.

Yes and no. Geelong-Ballarat and Melbourne-Bendigo were the two lines built to UK standards (100mph capable alignments, double track) back when the colony was seriously cashed up between the gold rush and the depression prior to federation. Sure, one of the tracks from Geelong-Ballarat has since been ripped up and the passenger service has ceased, and there has never been a 100mph train available nor has the track been maintained to an appropriate standard to withstand it, but most of the curves on the Bendigo line have always been quite capable of sustaining 160km/h (100mph) operations.

pity the Sydney Mainline isn't getting upgraded :(

Planning for the Reasonably Fast Rail Project started when SpeedRail seemed to be in the fore. It was assumed that there was no need for the State to cough up for that line when the Feds seemed poised to do it some time in the next two decades anyway.

..

Look very similar to the new trains for Perth.
http://www.transwa.wa.gov.au/themes/transwa/images/home/home-title.gif
http://www.transwa.wa.gov.au/upload/TransWA/3E24C04608504EDF8BE1D295B309E44.jpg
http://www.transwa.wa.gov.au/upload/TransWA/CEC38E672E9445EBBDDF78BF20A43372.jpg

Nope, it's being built at Dandenong, same as the NSW Xplorers and Endeavours.

Hmm, I know that, so why did I say the other? oops lol.

Ballarat line update #4 online (PDF) - cool pic of a new bridge U/C

http://www.thiessalstomjv.com.au/ConstructionUpdate-20040515.pdf

Are bridges being built so as to accomodate dual track in future?

Official launch, c/o members from railpage

hello

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4766952&outx=800&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4766954&outx=800&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4766935&outx=800&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4766933&outx=800&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4766937&outx=800&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4766942&outx=800&oq=0

I think I'll have to take my cam each time I'm on a train going past Bombardiér / Cranbourne line junction to try and snap some more :guns1:

Thanks tays. The seating is quite spacious. It is good that Victoria is making a rail 'comeback'. Just like St Kilda in the footy!.

Yes the trains are looking good thumbs up!

"Intensive works on the Ballarat Regional line completed on schedule"

http://www.thiessalstomjv.com.au/ballarat_line_scope_of_work__and__construction_program/?a=1110

rumour has it (railpage) that the first 160kph test run will be conducted on the Valley line - the Vlocity160s have been testing locally on the Cranbourne line (Bombardiér have a branch line off the Cranbourne line) at nights for the past two weeks.

The Ballarat line is pretty blooody hilly, as is the Bendigo line. Basically the only truely flat line is the Geelong line. Incredibly windy up to Eureka (Ballarat).

the Melbourne to moe-morwell-traralgon-bairnsdale is pretty flat too...
does anyone know if these faster trains will be travelling on this route?

yes

Gippsland mainline a.k.a. 'La Trobe Valley' line
Ballarat mainline
Bendigo mainline and
Geelong mainline

are all getting upgraded. Geelong's works have finished Ballarats have now finished, I think Gippsland's has - Bendigo's only just started.

the Melbourne to moe-morwell-traralgon-bairnsdale is pretty flat too...
does anyone know if these faster trains will be travelling on this route?
The new trains will go only as far as Traralgon on the Gippsland line.

Pitty that half the Bendigo line is going to be ripped up. So much for a so called 'upgrade'.

http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/vic/content/2003/s1130121.htm

Transcript
Locals may lose services due to Fast Rail project
Broadcast: 11/06/2004
Reporter: Kerri Ritchie

KERRI RITCHIEM, REPORTER: To the Transport Minister's delight the first of Victoria's promised fast trains rolled off the production line a fortnight ago. When the Bracks Government came to power in 1999, it had won over many with its plans for high-speed commuter trains connecting Ballarat, Bendigo, Traralgon and Geelong to Melbourne. But five years on, not everyone is cheering.

LAURIE WHELAN, BENDIGO RESIDENT: A couple of our members, our older members of the group are saying they'll be sitting on the tracks. That's how some people feel about it and they are just very humble, ordinary people of Bendigo who are concerned about it.

KERRI RITCHIE: Laurie Whelan is a former mayor of Bendigo and now heads a group of residents concerned about the fast rail project. He says while spending on the ageing railway lines is overdue, the Government is about to make some very costly mistakes.

LAURIE WHELAN: Probably the biggest disappointing aspect of it is certainly the fact that they are losing one of the rail lines. People just felt that it was important to actually retain two tracks, to know that it was going to be secure and reliable.

KERRI RITCHIE: The double track to Bendigo was built almost 150 years ago. Under the fast train project, the old lines will be ripped up and a single track with four sections of double track or 'passing loops' will be built between Kyneton and Bendigo. The Government says the new trains, which travel at 160km/h - 30km/h faster than the current ones - need more space on either side of the track to meet safety standards. Locals say the Government is just trying to cut back on future maintenance costs.

LAURIE WHELAN: They are making major investments in transport - particularly in terms of the Calder Highway. We want to duplicate our Calder Highway but here we are wanting to take away an dual existing track. Again people are dismayed and I think people have seen through the silliness of it all.

KERRI RITCHIE: The silliness - according to locals - extends much further. The Government says a new express service between Melbourne and Bendigo will take just 84 minutes - a saving of almost 40 minutes on the current regular service. But residents believe it will delay other trains because they'll all be on a single track. Also the line between Bendigo and Kyneton will close for six months later this year for construction. Locals question how future maintenance will be carried out with only a single track. But the height of the silliness, they say, is the Government's decision to spend millions on broad-gauge sleepers instead of gauge-convertible sleepers. Meaning in the near future, when regional cities must convert to standard gauge to remain part of the national rail network, Bendigo will be shut out.

PETER BATCHELOR, TRANSPORT MINISTER: Passenger services operate on broad-gauge, they do in the past and they will in the future. Nobody is proposing that we standardise the passenger line - any section of it. And accordingly the people who are making this unreasonable demand on the fast rail service corridors are just really trying to have money spent and blow the budget on the project.

KERRI RITCHIE: David Cunningham moved from Melbourne to Castlemaine 2.5 years ago for a change of lifestyle.

DAVID CUNNINGHAM, CASTLEMAIN RESIDENT: Obviously being within relatively easy range of Melbourne and being a beautiful place and having a pretty good train service are all great assets for the town.

KERRI RITCHIE: But he now believes that good rail service is about to be lost as commuters in Castlemaine and Kyneton won't be able to board the express train from Bendigo to Melbourne.

DAVID CUNNINGHAM: Actually it's better for people to be able to get on the train than have it whiz past. It doesn't benefit anybody unless you happen to start in Bendigo.

KERRI RITCHIE: David Cunningham says the State Government's claims that the fast rail project will encourage people to live and do business in regional Victoria are farcical.

DAVID CUNNINGHAM: It's closing off opportunities, that's right. Population is projected to increase along this line as a growth corridor. We should be planning to provide for what may be needed in 50 years time not what is going to be needed in three years time.

KERRI RITCHIE: He says the Government has ignored their concerns.

DAVID CUNNINGHAM: They've been saying, "We are all ears listening." The trouble is they have stuck wax in them. I mean, they haven't listened at all because right from the start as soon as we began to learn the terms of the contract, people are saying we must keep both lines.

PETER BATCHELOR: Since the contracts were signed, the fast rail project team have had 30 rounds of community consultation with councils, local organisations and individuals.

ANGELA MUNRO, BETTER RAIL ACTION GROUP: One of the flaws of the project is that it has been engineering-led rather than customer-led. They are not looking at what the customer needs so much as what this engineering feat will require and generate.

KERRI RITCHIE: Angela Munro used to work for the council in Castlemaine as the manager of economic development. She says initially local councils were leading the charge, holding community meetings about the fast rail project and encouraging community consultation. But now that's changed.

ANGELA MUNRO: What has changed in the last year is that the council, the Mount Alexander Shire, is no longer willing to speak out. They are no longer willing to make public comment.

KERRI RITCHIE: She says councils are scared they will lose funding if they criticise the Government.

ANGELA MUNRO: I think it raises serious questions about the nature of our representation by our local members. Are they representing us or are they representing someone in the centre because they don't appear to be representing our views on this.

PETER BATCHELOR: In the rail industry there are a group of enthusiasts who think they know how best to run and build trains and tracks and they set up little communities and societies to do it. They are stuck in the 18th century, we want to move forward.

KERRI RITCHIE: The fast rail project is due to be completed by the middle of next year. Locals say this fight is far from finished.

DAVID CUNNINGHAM: They haven't actually damaged anything yet, they haven't damaged the Heritage stations, the bridges, they haven't modified anything, they haven't ripped up the track, so in that sense it's not too late to do something.

nice pictures of the new trains and track.. thanks

Those trains look very good how many are being built tayser?.

Nick I was talking to a friend in Sydney not long back,and asked him about extending heavy rail to Bondi.Apparently the Bondi people do not want it.But it looks like the city will get an extension of the light rail from Central Terminal to Circular Quay.He is on speaking terms with quite a lot of the movers and shakers in Sydney.

The people in Bondi who dont want the extension are just bloody selfish in my opinion.Sometimes the government has to 'bite the bullet' and make some serious decisions

The light rail should also go out to Maroobra and to Bondi via Double bay.While the heavy rail will service the bulk of passengers to the city from Australia's most densely populated beach

So I'm keen - I'm back to taking the train from Lara (since I found it more cost effective with the cost of Petrol to drive to Laverton each day) I can't wait 4 these new trains - Anybody know when they're scheduled 2 start up?

There is an order for 38 two car train sets, but you will not see them running until 2005.

The people in Bondi who dont want the extension are just bloody selfish in my opinion.Sometimes the government has to 'bite the bullet' and make some serious decisions

The light rail should also go out to Maroobra and to Bondi via Double bay.While the heavy rail will service the bulk of passengers to the city from Australia's most densely populated beach

I totally agree that the govnt should bite the bullet, but this won't be as easy as you thought , australia is a country where protesting againest anything is allowed , i think they should limit on the amount of protesting allowed, btu still allow protesting. Chances are that this law will make a huge strike going on in cbds of major cities.

Many protesters are very selfish . I.E People are protesting againest the M4 East motoarway to be constructed, but they never see the good side of this project, they just care about themselves, but the construction of this new motoarway can bring relif to many more people, more than the amount of protesters.

Also with the bondi beach extenstion, this can bring heavy relif in conjestion of traffic on roads on bondi beach. Commerical shops can benifit from extra traffic from a new train line.

very selfish . I.E People are protesting againest the M4 East motoarway to be constructed, but they never see the good side of this project, they just care about themselves, but the construction of this new motoarway can bring relif to many more people, more than the amount of protesters.

Freeways don't bring relief, they make things worse!

Freeways don't bring relief, they make things worse!

Freeways would have to make things better, for if they made things worse, more people would take the train as a result. ;) Either way it's win/win.

First set in Newport workshops, apparently was testing between Tynong and Nar Nar Goon on the Gippsland line and will now be tested on the Geelong line (Railpage).

www.vicsig.net

http://www.vicsig.net/passenger/photos/20040822-nps-1101.jpg

http://www.vicsig.net/passenger/photos/20040822-nps-1201-1101.jpg

thanks to James C on Railpage:

http://www.railpage.com.au/modules/gallery/albums/album370/train1.jpg

http://www.railpage.com.au/modules/gallery/albums/album370/train2.jpg

http://www.railpage.com.au/modules/gallery/albums/album370/train3.jpg

silly Broad Guage, makes all Victorian trains so rude because they can't wear skirts. . . :tongue3:

:runaway:

Yes I recognise that Exit Inn - possibly the dumbest pub name of all time

Very impressive and expensive bridgework & trackwork on the new Wallace-Millgrove deviation on the Ballarat line referred to by Tayser further back up this thread. The only Victorian rail bridges that shape up to these are those on cashed-up Bendigo line from the Gold-Rush days: and those on the inter-war Albion-Jacana line.

More pics, by 'vicrailpics' at Railpage http://vicrailpics.fotopic.net/

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=yfao0x&outx=760&oq=0

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=yfao0f&outx=760&oq=0

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=yfdmp7&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Those new trains look terrific.

Similar
http://www.railpage.com.au/modules/gallery/albums/album370/train2.jpg
http://www.newmetrorail.wa.gov.au/Portals/6/TTTGallery/RailCars/Railcars/Track%20trials%20in%20Perth%20June%2004%20(4).jpg

Freeways would have to make things better, for if they made things worse, more people would take the train as a result. ;) Either way it's win/win.

Quote from Radio National Today (Not Verbatim):

"Liquid fuel will not simply run out in the near future. But as supplies contract, fuel prices will rise, especially so as China and the other Asian economies place increasing demands upon this finite and diminuishing resource. Within the next few decades, oil prices will rise dramatically, to the point that oil will be seen as a resource to be largely reserved for aviation".

What will we do with the freeways then?

:eek:

spooooky

Quote from Radio National Today (Not Verbatim):

"Liquid fuel will not simply run out in the near future. But as supplies contract, fuel prices will rise, especially so as China and the other Asian economies place increasing demands upon this finite and diminuishing resource. Within the next few decades, oil prices will rise dramatically, to the point that oil will be seen as a resource to be largely reserved for aviation".

What will we do with the freeways then?

hydrogen cars ,electric cars, natural gas buses and cars (until that resource runs out too)

Freeways would have to make things better, for if they made things worse, more people would take the train as a result. ;) Either way it's win/win.

Cars are more conveniant to the driver, but are inconveniant to the enviroment, and as this oil shindig begins cars will get more expensive to run.

What will we do with the freeways then?

You do realise that cars come in the electric variety as well? Electricity isn't a comodity reserved for trains and trams. If you ran out of oil entirely you could kiss plastics & aviation goodbye, but there would still be cars on the freeway. Electric cars don't cost that much extra these days, a doubling or tripling of oil prices would see them as a serious contender. Even earlier as the technology matures.

Back to the Topic: Victorian Fast Rail Update: Ballarat Line

Delivery of one of twenty 78 tonne 33.5 metre beams to Lal Lal Ck. Bridge:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Regional/Fast%20Rail/deliver940.jpg

The new Lal Lal Bridge: 355 metres in length, 35 metres or more in height at its highest:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Regional/Fast%20Rail/lallal_0939.jpg

Ballan Station, busy on the outside:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Regional/Fast%20Rail/ballan_0928.jpg

and the inside:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Regional/Fast%20Rail/ballan_0929.jpg

The new West Moorabool River Bridge: 275m long, 9 spans each comprising two beams, the final two to be placed in November:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Regional/Fast%20Rail/wst_mrbl_0938.jpg

There must be a story behind this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Regional/Fast%20Rail/wst_mrbl_0936.jpg

great pics yardmaster!

pics thanks to James_c on Railpage

http://www.railpage.com.au/modules/gallery/albums/album370/billboard.sized.jpg

http://www.railpage.com.au/modules/gallery/albums/album370/v5f.sized.jpg

http://www.railpage.com.au/modules/gallery/albums/album370/v4f.sized.jpg

http://www.railpage.com.au/modules/gallery/albums/album370/v1f.sized.jpg

more (http://www.railpage.com.au/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11717)

You do realise that cars come in the electric variety as well?

Actually, they don't, the only significant rollout of them in California has been shut down.

You do realise that the industry that makes cars runs on oil and gas, and without scope for unconstrained and increasing availability of said resources, we will either end up with market prices for manufactured goods so high that nobody would be able to afford them, or central control, which would declare cars of any fuel supply to be unnecessary wasters of energy.

Electricity isn't a comodity reserved for trains and trams.

Yeah, they run buses on it in Wellington too. Pity that over here it's mostly generated using coal (dirty) and gas (close to depletion). When the gas crunch hits, there goes our electricity supply for several hours a day. Fortunately while that's imminent in North America and New Zealand, it's a few decades off at present usage here, though much sooner if we start using it for personal transport as well as power and industry.

If you ran out of oil entirely

The depletion characteristics of an oil well and the spread of oil reserves indicate that there will always be oil somewhere. Just not very much of it.

Once oil reaches its peak, which is what people are worried about in the next few years, we will not run out of supply, we have just run out of growth, and a decline will begin, along with a drilling boom (same as the US in the mid-late 70s when they passed their domestic oil peak), but it won't matter.

When supply growth is gone, there goes economic growth too.

If you think you have a solution, the people at the forums on www.peakoil.com would love to hear from you :-)

Actually, they don't, the only significant rollout of them in California has been shut down.

Just because they're not common doesn't mean they don't exist.

Yeah, they run buses on it in Wellington too. Pity that over here it's mostly generated using coal (dirty) and gas (close to depletion).

And we won't run out of coal for hundreds and hundreds of years, assuming we don't switch to nuclear or some other fuel in the mean time.

When the gas crunch hits, there goes our electricity supply for several hours a day.

Gas produces a mere fraction of our power, (about 2%) in some states it doesn't produce any. At the moment most gas is discarded because it costs more to transport than it's worth.

Just because they're not common doesn't mean they don't exist.

Actually, that's incorrect. They don't presently exist. There are no warehouses around full with hundreds of millions of EVs waiting to be sold.

Nor is there much scope for lending or borrwing the massive amount of capital required to replace the vehicle fleet during the massive inflationary episode that is inevitable when there's a prolonged oil pinch.

Also, it is highly unlikely that there will be scope to keep non-essential industries running at all, including the private automotive industry. What prey tell fuels the trucks that mine the ore, and transports it to mills, then steel/other metals from the mill to the car plant, then finished cars from the car plant to the dealership?

And what is the feedstock of the chemicals that are essential for growing the food that the metal and car assembly plant workers and their families depend on, and what fuel shifts that food to the stores?

Remember what happened to the German economy around 1923, when the foreign exchange bill for a nation became too much to mount?

Keep in mind that we are very much a net oil importer.

And we won't run out of coal for hundreds and hundreds of years

Many coal mines run on diesel, and of those that don't, the trains and trucks (except for about half the blackwater coal trains in Queensland) run on Diesel, and are operated by people who are themselves dependent on oil.

And those who are able to switch from other fuels or feedstocks to coal will massively increase demand, which will either increase the price or reduce that hundreds of years to well under a hundred years, or massively increase the price, or both.

assuming we don't switch to nuclear or some other fuel in the mean time.

Yeah, the Chinese are making exciting inroads with pebble bed reactors. I'd love to see a few dozen of them built around here, but that's unlikely to happen.

Besides, how do we get Uranium from the outback to the cities, let alone to our export partners? Oh, yeah, Diesel.

Gas produces a mere fraction of our power, (about 2%) in some states it doesn't produce any. At the moment most gas is discarded because it costs more to transport than it's worth.

Irrelevant, and I think your figures are out of date too. Besides, even small percentages make big differences.

For starters, the most logical role gas plays in Electricity is for peak load power. What happens when we lose that? Oh, yeah, nightly blackouts from 4pm to 8pm, when demand is generally the highest, with possible rationing and the likelihood of massive power bill jumps.

Also, the sheer scale of electricity demand growth if EVs ever catch on will seriously stretch our generation and grid capacity, particularly inter-peak when people recharge cars at work, and 8pm to the wee hours of the morning, when people recharge their cars overnight.

The issues which are being debated here are critically important- I think- but is this the appropriate thread for them?

I concede I added to this myself (post #50 in this thread) and I've been hauled over the coals for this by the various lurkers who read what's going on here but have yet to register.

Actually, that's incorrect. They don't presently exist. There are no warehouses around full with hundreds of millions of EVs waiting to be sold.

And when there's no oil reserves with hundreds of millions of barrels waiting to be sold, oil will not exist? *cough*. Yeah sure. I could make my own EV if I put in the time effort and considerable capital required.
Of course there are no warehouses full, if you want an electric car there is a long waiting list.

Just because there aren't stockpiles of something waiting to be sold doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Or it follows obviously there are no cars that were made before 2004, becuase there are no factories with hundreds of millions of old cars waiting to be sold. Not to mention that there aren't even hundreds of millions of new cars waiting to be sold. Perhaps new cars don't exist either. So if no cars exist, why are you whinging?

Nor is there much scope for lending or borrwing the massive amount of capital required to replace the vehicle fleet during the massive inflationary episode that is inevitable when there's a prolonged oil pinch.

Yeah, obviously not. Countries spend trillions of dollars each year on useless crap, there wouldn't be any scope for redirecting that money if worse came to worse.

And what is the feedstock of the chemicals that are essential for growing the food that the metal and car assembly plant workers and their families depend on, and what fuel shifts that food to the stores?

As you said, we will have a crises long before we run out of oil for non private use.

Remember what happened to the German economy around 1923, when the foreign exchange bill for a nation became too much to mount?

Keep in mind that we are very much a net oil importer.

In 2002, petroleum consumption averaged 881,000 bbl/d, resulting in net imports of 166,000 bbl/d

So you think it would be tough to drop oil consumption by 20%?

Many coal mines run on diesel, and of those that don't, the trains and trucks (except for about half the blackwater coal trains in Queensland) run on Diesel, and are operated by people who are themselves dependent on oil.

The amount of diesel required though is pitiful compared to the quantity of energy obtained from the coal. If it wasn't no one would mine coal.

Yeah, the Chinese are making exciting inroads with pebble bed reactors. I'd love to see a few dozen of them built around here, but that's unlikely to happen.

It will never happen without the impetus that you suggest will occur. They wouldn't be building them in China if they weren't dealing with a country that wants 3x the power it produces. Imagine Australian energy production dropped by 2/3 overnight. We would be in the same situation China is, and they're coping fine.

Besides, how do we get Uranium from the outback to the cities, let alone to our export partners? Oh, yeah, Diesel.

You could get it by camel train if you really wanted to. How things are done now is the cheapest and easiest way possible. Not THE ONLY way possible.

Irrelevant, and I think your figures are out of date too. Besides, even small percentages make big differences.

For starters, the most logical role gas plays in Electricity is for peak load power. What happens when we lose that? Oh, yeah, nightly blackouts from 4pm to 8pm, when demand is generally the highest, with possible rationing and the likelihood of massive power bill jumps.

BTW, you realise that demand is the highest BY FAR during the day, when industry is operating. This is why night rate electricity is the cheapest. If you don't even know THAT about the electricity industry (most year 9 science students could tell you). You should stop now.

Also, the sheer scale of electricity demand growth if EVs ever catch on will seriously stretch our generation and grid capacity, particularly inter-peak when people recharge cars at work, and 8pm to the wee hours of the morning, when people recharge their cars overnight.

Most people already live within 30-60 minutes of their work. People will only need to charge once, overnight, and it can be done on the lowest tarrif rate 10pm-7am - when energy usage is the lowest. It will make demand peaks far less significant, and mean that things like your gas power plants for peak usage, far less necessary.

MEANWHILE back to RFR,

Hornetfig: they will have a [mini] skirt! :D

http://users.tpg.com.au/hobbitj/rpfvl3.jpg

http://users.tpg.com.au/hobbitj/rpfvl2.jpg

(^^ Vicrailpics - Railpage)

looks much better

Now they do, now they don't

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/17/1095394008016.html

Fast train loses panels at 160 km/h
By Selma Milovanovic
September 18, 2004

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/09/17/18TRAIN_wideweb__430x205.jpg

The V/Locity fast train during testing between Warragul and Moe yesterday.
Picture:Shaney Balcombe

V/Line has played down an incident in which two skirting panels came off a state-of-the-art fast train on Thursday as it travelled at up to 160 km/h during testing near Trafalgar, south-east of Melbourne.

The panels, each one-metre-square, flew off the new V/Locity 160 train and landed in grass and trees five metres from the road.

The mishap came on the eve of Premier Steve Bracks' visit to Warragul yesterday to travel on the train during testing. It is one of 38 such trains being rolled out across Victoria as part of the $616 million Regional Fast Rail Project.

A V/Line spokeswoman said the incident, which happened on the Latrobe Valley line, was part of testing and would not delay the progress of the project. "The fact the panels came off is part of the testing program," she said. "In a sense, that's exactly why we test. To actually work out how to refine the trains so that when they come into service, we know that they meet our rigorous safety standards."

The Government plans to deliver fast train services to the Latrobe Valley, Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong rail lines.

Under the project, which has been plagued by cost blow-outs and delays, the new trains will come into service from mid-2005.

Mr Bracks said the project would give regional Victorians more frequent, safer and comfortable trains while giving a massive boost to the regional economy.

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yfx1tm&outx=760&oq=0

:lol:

:tongue2:

leave them off! it looks fine without. Even in Sydney with Standard Guage, T Sets lose their skirts occasionally; but that probably has something to do with T Sets being garbage

(Fabian, if you ever feel like doing a close inspection of Central 25, one scraped the side of that platform a few weeks back. Made some tremendously loud noise apparently...)

thanks to vicrailpics, railpage.

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yfx3x6&outx=760&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yfx1z1&outx=760&oq=0

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yfx1r6&outx=760&oq=0

does anyone know if this is the same type of train that malaysia uses on its airport express link? looks very similar.

does anyone know if this is the same type of train that malaysia uses on its airport express link? looks very similar.

Don't think so. There's some obvious differences between the two trains. The first one is that the trains operating on the KLIA run on electricity, while the VLocity trains are diesel run. The other noticeable differences are the doors, and the slightly flatter nose of the KLIA trains.

http://www.xpphotoalbum.com/data/500/9797DSCN4666.JPG?6398
http://www.xpphotoalbum.com/data/500/9797tasik3.JPG?2887

damn, these be the best looking diesel trains i've seen!

new signalling system's gantries on the LV line

http://www.thehoddlegrid.net/dump/Picture_072.jpg

^ c/o B 67 Railpage.

Both (1 x 160, 1 x 100) tracks are going to be bi-directional.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Slow-trains-to-rule-on-regional-rail/2004/12/23/1103391894862.html

Slow trains to rule on regional rail
By Darren Gray
State editor
December 24, 2004

Trains will run more frequently to regional Victoria, but the promised fast services will be rare.

Only three weekday morning train services would meet the Bracks Government's much-trumpeted fast rail time targets for regional Victoria under a proposed timetable for 2006.

But train services between Melbourne and the key regional centres of Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo and Traralgon would be more frequent under the draft V/Line timetable, released this week.

The infrequency of express trains delivering the promised time savings prompted a renewed Opposition attack yesterday over the "bungled" rail project, now tipped to cost taxpayers $750 million compared to initial estimates of $80 million.

Transport Minister Peter Batchelor defended the proposed timetable, saying it would deliver 28 extra services each weekday to country communities, an increase on current service levels of about 25 per cent. He said the timetable delivered express services that met the Government's travel time targets on all four of the regional fast rail lines.

"Regional Fast Rail will deliver some express services, saving travel time, plus a better rail service overall, with more services when people want to travel, more reliably and in greater comfort," Mr Batchelor said.

Opposition transport spokesman Terry Mulder said the fast rail project had "the staggers", and the draft timetable delivered average weekday time savings of between 21/2 and 41/2 minutes.

"Of the nine weekday proposed services from Geelong arriving in Spencer Street before 9am, the average travel time is 58.5 minutes, compared with the current average time for services of 62 minutes," Mr Mulder said.

"The average peak hour travel time saving of 31/2 minutes a trip is way below what Steve Bracks and Peter Batchelor's publicity has constantly promised, but the cost to Victorians of this bungled project is at least $750 million statewide."

Nationals leader Peter Ryan also criticised the Government. "They could have delivered the extra services, which is what people have always wanted, without it costing us about $30 million a minute saved. What a fiasco," he said.

The Government has repeatedly pledged that the regional rail line upgrades and the new V/Locity trains, which can reach 160 km/h, would deliver 45-minute journeys between Geelong and Melbourne, 64 minutes to Ballarat, 84 minutes to Bendigo and 95 minutes to Traralgon.

But according the draft timetable, the Geelong, Bendigo and Ballarat lines would each carry one weekday morning express service matching the promised times, and three between them in the afternoon/evening.

On the Traralgon line, one evening service would match the promised time, and one morning service would almost match it - taking one minute longer than the published fast time.

The fast rail project was originally due for completion in 2005, but will now be delayed until at least mid-2006.

______________

If they really want to speed -everything- up, they need to build dedicated or shared Vline / Freight lines along metro corridors: quadruple track Wer - Altona Junction, upgraded express lines to Newport, quadruple track to Footscray etc etc etc.

http://www.melbournephotos.net/pics/2005-01-24%20Melbourne%20-%20DocklandsRialto%20Construction/IMG_5492.jpg
Stupidtrains.

this is where all our money is being imbezzeled

it's got its skirt(s) back

The Vic govt really should've take some lessons from Euope/Japan and made a mad fast train line and did something good for all commuters to get rid of cars, But we are left with this poor excuse.......

ICCCCCCCEEEEEEEEE Trains--------->

We dont have the population or density to do what Japan and Europe do.
Japan and most European countries are the same size as Victoria and have atleast 10 times the population of Vic.
France, Germany, Britain all have over 50million people, Japan is close to 300million!

What we have is ok... the Government has just stuffed it up majorly!

i can't believe the fast rail is going to be diesel run!

I'd rather see DMUs burning minimal fuel than seeing extra capacity being fired up down in the La Trobe valley to cater for an extra 500km of electrified track, not to mention the extra capital cost, we'd be waiting for another 10 years.

Mmmm... we could always use wind power to power the electric trains...
Imagine the publicity that could be generated! - PT could really be the environmentally friendly mode of transport :)

Speaking as someone who will allegedly benefit from this sorry project - it's gone on too long and I can see it happening as soon as the new trains roll in the fares will go up again. And at 51.50 (14.70 return) a week from Lara to Melbourne it's already too expensive.

well that's the price of living in provincial Victoria!

the country is where all the service boosting is going on, the country is where the the 100 year old track has been drastically upgraded, the country is where the new working & protection systems are being installed - the majority of which paid and subsidised for by Melbourne as that's where most of the money in this state is created, taxed and poured into projects by government.

now, what's Melbourne got out of this?

buggar all.

Melbourne get's its freeways. :(

Melbourne gets electric lines, electronic ticketing, rollingstock from the 20th century, Geelong gets to catch up - some of the way

Ummm we dont "get" that in 2005 - over the past decades yes.
Then again, the bush has been neglected, so its only fair its semi upgraded.
I really do think the metro lines need to be upgraded majorly - not just the fast rail corridors, but every single line. The network is falling apart. Its so bloody old and crummy.
I'm not talking about stations - they're easy to fix, Im referring to the track.

don't often see line speed signs this high:

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=y9wyya&outx=980&quality=70

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=y9vzz4&outx=980&quality=70

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=y9wyyi&outx=980&quality=70

HEAPS (http://www.rodsrailpage.fotopic.net/c731972.html) more.

Why don't we have double tracks??? :(

double the capital cost, double the maintenance cost, all for something that isn't needed.

The faster one line is, the less time a train occupies a section of track .: you're able to fit more trains in that one track.

^^^^^^^

Interesting you say that double track is "not needed".

Tell that to the people who's service level has been reduced since the "upgrade".

What is all boiled down to is that the Labour government, when in opposition made a lot of promises which they made when they did not expect to win the election. So they were forced to deliver something they had no true idea that they were actually talking about. They were supposed to have double tracks everywhere in the original plans but with the outrageous cost over-runs they had to scale back drastically. So people on the Bendigo line for example will get a slower service stopping at less places than before.

If you are a Victorian, buy a car and install LPG. Hell will freeze over before Victoria gets public transport up to speed.

I was in Bacchus Marsh yesterday and saw part of the Ballarat line being constructed. The whole project is about fancy new tracks and some already dated looking trains. I tell you, the rate this project is going we won't have proper services until 2008 ... the whole thing is a complete disgrace and waste of money and second rate. It provides no real benefits to any Victorians, and in fact comes at the cost of many of our essential services. The money would have been better spend servicing Melbourne's suburbs, which would have massive environmental benefits, economic benefits (through reduction of congestion and reducing consumer oil dependency), health and infrastructure benefits. Peter Batchelor is a complete tosspocket.

Don't blame me, I voted for Jeff!

another Steve Bracks fuck-up :rant:

first the cost blows out 10 times original estimate. Then the tracks won't be fully duplicated as originally proposed. So in turn, services will be fewer and slower then originally estimated. Average only 3 minutes faster than current services. Then during test runs, the panels fly off the trains. Then they are deemed too noisy from inside the carriages. :rant:

This is a bloody joke. We could easily be the laughing stock of the world. Yep, another steve bracks fuck-up. Steve Bracks is what he promises. A whole lot of nothing. :rant: and as for Peter Batchelor, he should go back to kindy with his intellectually rooted friend Steve Bracks.

the only fuck up was in how the project was marketed.

well then you're outta touch with reality if you can't see how much of a joke this project has become.

reality is this project as a whole is only a minor portion of what actually is needed for the rail system as a whole in Victoria.

Shame they decided to use the crap platform at Malmsbury.

^Labor V Liberal = bugger all difference for PT. Brack talks more, and puts more in but f*cks it right up (or miscalculates to be nice). Jeff (as much I as admire what he did in other areas) just simply ripped the system out in many areas, BUT, the trains did start to get fixed up, the stations cleaned up under Kennett, they were much worse in the late 80's early 90's under labor.

If you look at both parties websites, they have pretty much no concrete PT policy.

So send them all a message and vote for someone else.

But there isnt anyone else to vote for.
I'd vote for the Libs Nov 2006... But Doyle is a loser...
I dont like Bracks...
I think many people will vote for the lesser of two evils...

But there isnt anyone else to vote for.
I'd vote for the Libs Nov 2006... But Doyle is a loser...
I dont like Bracks...
I think many people will vote for the lesser of two evils...

Isn't that often the case though?

You should remember you're not voting for Bracks or Doyle, rather your local member. If the major parties don't suit your needs, there are some good independents out there occasionally. We've seen many times that they can make a difference.

not in Victoria sirhc8. New South only has the occasional good independent because your upper house has extremely low quotas that let every man and his dog in. We're going to get a little more diversity (at long last) in the council from November next year, however I'm hoping that when Bracks loses the council majority (Which he undoubtedly will), the balance is given to the Greens who, you'd hope, would sure as shit enforce more 'green' transport options on the government.

In actual fact, fuck the past 20 years of lack lustre PT performance by successive governments, from now on things will be a lot more different.

^On top of that it sends a message to the major parties. If you want the libs in but don't like their PT policies, vote Green, Democrats, PT first (if they run), or an independent as your first preference and then the libs.

The other good aspect of this, is that the FIRST preference receives a small amount of government money - a couple of dollars per vote. This amounts to quite alot of money for the major parties. If this is suddenly directed to minor parties en mass, then it puts a dent in their coffers, and helps broaden which parties are influential.

Further to this - rezoning of the upper house in Victoria (which is in place for 2006 election) will most likely favour independents and minor parties. If Greens or more independents get the balance of power, the major parties will have to address PT issues, because they won't simply let more irresponsible freetollway projects such as east link through.

^Tayser you beat me to it.

Is there a party that stands for progress rather than Green NIMBYism - cuz I'll vote for them.

If there was, I doubt it would get enough votes to claw back its electoral commission deposit.

^^^^^^^

Interesting you say that double track is "not needed".

Tell that to the people who's service level has been reduced since the "upgrade".

What is all boiled down to is that the Labour government, when in opposition made a lot of promises which they made when they did not expect to win the election. So they were forced to deliver something they had no true idea that they were actually talking about. They were supposed to have double tracks everywhere in the original plans but with the outrageous cost over-runs they had to scale back drastically. So people on the Bendigo line for example will get a slower service stopping at less places than before.

If you are a Victorian, buy a car and install LPG. Hell will freeze over before Victoria gets public transport up to speed.

Please get it right Mate in Australia its LABOR Party!

^Anyone know the history of why Labor (the political party only that is) is spelt the American way in Australia?

From the ALPs website:

During the early years of the ALP, the Party was referred to by various titles differing from colony to colony. It was at the 1908 Interstate (federal) Conference that the name 'Australian Labour Party' was adopted. In its shortened form the Party was frequently referred to as both 'Labor' and 'Labour', however the former spelling was adopted from 1912 onwards, due to the influence of the American labor movement.

Hardly a convincing reason.

at the turn of the century we weren't putting the 'u' in words typically. Look up some old newspapers referring to "Harbor" notably "Sydney Harbor Bridge"...

I don't know why we don't use American spelling - it usually makes more sense - why do we need a "u" and at least the yanks utilise the letter "z" we don't!

decent speeds.

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ydycw2&outx=980&quality=70

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ydycwa&outx=980&quality=70

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ydycwm&outx=980&quality=70

Rod's railpage (http://rodsrailpage.fotopic.net/c736164.html)

I don't know why we don't use American spelling - it usually makes more sense - why do we need a "u" and at least the yanks utilise the letter "z" we don't!

I agree with you about the "z" thing, Jimmy Jamez. :okay:

Because it's called English. Know it.

I cant understand the rationale of this project. I think exising tracks can supprot speeds up to 120 and the new tracks only permit a max speed of 160. The increase in speed is minimal. If they are serious about deriving benefits out of this project, they should electrify it instead.

Just to let you all know I'm working in the CBD once again so I'm back on the VLine train - first day back and the idiots couldn't even find an "engine" to stick on the front - service was delays 20 minutes thanks to those fools.

I can see a very aggro summer ahead!

The real rationale for the project has become simply restoring a system that was falling apart into one that is safe and servicable. The degree of neglect obviously wasn't appeciated when they embarked on the project. Its hard to justify the cost of electrification and maintenance of the overhead infrastructure on these lines given the traffic they carry and there would be few benefits using EMUs over a modern DMU like the V'locity.

Im really enjoying reading through this thread.Victoria is taking the right approach to fast rail in Australia.Keep it relatively cheap by upgrading the rail on the existing routes and keep the trains small and modern to start off with.Once patronage increases move to bigger trains and larger investments in more track and possibly a straighter alignment.

Other states will follow in its lead if this idea really takes off in a big way

I cant understand the rationale of this project. I think exising tracks can supprot speeds up to 120 and the new tracks only permit a max speed of 160. The increase in speed is minimal. If they are serious about deriving benefits out of this project, they should electrify it instead.

Its not minimal.160 is a big improvement.Making it faster than road trasnport.Once the patronage improves from these investments the Vic governemt can start getting serious with some TGV or Shinkansen(Bullet train) style lines

another Steve Bracks fuck-up :rant:

first the cost blows out 10 times original estimate. Then the tracks won't be fully duplicated as originally proposed. So in turn, services will be fewer and slower then originally estimated. Average only 3 minutes faster than current services. Then during test runs, the panels fly off the trains. Then they are deemed too noisy from inside the carriages. :rant:

This is a bloody joke. We could easily be the laughing stock of the world. Yep, another steve bracks fuck-up. Steve Bracks is what he promises. A whole lot of nothing. :rant: and as for Peter Batchelor, he should go back to kindy with his intellectually rooted friend Steve Bracks.

Its a start in the right direction.You have to start off small with such a large project.Of course there are going to be fuck ups in the first few years of operation and some broken promises.Once these are ironed out Victoria is going to realise what a wonderful investment they have made in their Transport future.While the other states are going to have to play catch up.

pics from vicsig.

the ballarat line deviation looks to be complete.

http://www.vicsig.net/infrastructure/rfr-ballarat/20051001-dunnstown-x49-ballast-h2.jpg

http://www.vicsig.net/infrastructure/rfr-ballarat/20051001-dunnstown-h2-ballast-x49.jpg

^yep, notice how there is ONLY 1 track. Not the originally proposed double track. Mr Bracks you are such a fucken champ :rant:

Saying that "it's a start" is no excuse. How come that Europe can do it right the first time and we cant. Firstly, Europe's high speed rail network is a huge amount more expansive, they build trains that fly at 300km/h and in some cases have treacherous mountain terrain to build through aswell as huge viaducts as in southern france. And ofcourse let's not forget the channel tunnel. Yet they can get it right. All lines duplicated, the trains aren't riddled with problems and they are delived on time, not years behind schedule.

Our so called high speed rail network? 4 lines not even duplicated, trains that run at only 160km/h (just 30km/h fater than the current trains), they are constantly riddled by propblems and are years behind schedule. Any European would be taken over by disbelief if they were to find out about this.

oh for fuck's sake.

Ballarat was never proposed to be two tracks, never has been, probably never will be - the standard guage line runs via Geelong and therefore there's no need to see large capacity. Constantly riddled by problems? how so? they haven't even begun operating the high(er) speed services on them yet. here's another concept to get used to:

The higher speed the of a train, the less time it occupies a section of track, therefore increasing the amount of services you can run on it.

The 300kph high speed trians you're talking about are trains that run intercity, you know, between MASSIVE metropolitan areas, the title of this thread does say REGIONAL fast rail. The population of the area that the VIC RFR will cover: ~4 million. The population of the area that is covered on the Eurostar & Northern France TGV network (London-SE England, Lille, Amien, Paris and Brussels): 20 million minimum. Big difference there.

And just so we're really clear, 160kph is about the normal regional line speed in Europe (100mph), it's on average higher than anything in North America (except in Canada between Toronto, Montréal and Ottawa and in parts of the NE corridor in the US) and no doubt on par with many lines in Asia.

There's a big difference between intercity and regional travel, try and get your head around that before you give us all the same bullshit rant for a third time in future.

oh for fucks sake yourself.
obviously you were too busy licking Steve Brack's arse and calling it ice cream if you say the trains have had no problems during testing. MY GOD you're a blind bat, there were panels flying off, noise issues, problems with brakes etc and these are deadly mistakes when you're travelling at 160km/h. The media always reports these things.

There's nothing abnormal about having problems during testing. Most trains have problems (varying from minor to major) during testing and during their first days on the rail system. Look at the drama that the Millennium trains caused in Sydney when they first introduced. They had problems for a few years, and now they are one of the most reliable model of train on the CityRail system.

What's wrong though is that these lines were originally slated to open in 2005 and now is pushed back to mid 2006. It smacks of incompetence. i notice how all their road building projects appear to be ahead of schedule (except for Geelong Westconnect - but that's another thread.

^finally someone with common sense.

the geelong bypass is on schedule.

oh for fucks sake yourself.
obviously you were too busy licking Steve Brack's arse and calling it ice cream if you say the trains have had no problems during testing. MY GOD you're a blind bat, there were panels flying off, noise issues, problems with brakes etc and these are deadly mistakes when you're travelling at 160km/h. The media always reports these things.
The media sensationalizes, the media reports innacurately in order to sell more. If you believe everything in the media, you're a much bigger idiot than I thought.

oh for fucks sake yourself.
obviously you were too busy licking Steve Brack's arse and calling it ice cream if you say the trains have had no problems during testing. MY GOD you're a blind bat, there were panels flying off, noise issues, problems with brakes etc and these are deadly mistakes when you're travelling at 160km/h. The media always reports these things.

Isn't that exactly what testing is for? To iron out the problems before the project is completed and opened? It's hard to expect things to be perfect, especially when the trains are a new design and not just a European import. You can only do so much with models and computer simulations. And it's unlikely that we'll get any sort of high speed rail unless the landfill that Melbourne was built on makes the whole city unstable, so they put the whole city on the back of some trucks and move it 500km north.

If you've ever coded anything in a computer language, you realise how much time is actually spent on testing things (and the number of problems that appear as a result). The same applies to a lot of other fields too, and is part of the VCE IT course. :)

The media sensationalizes, the media reports innacurately in order to sell more. If you believe everything in the media, you're a much bigger idiot than I thought.
if you want to have your head chopped off by panels that fly off at 160km/h at the train passes while waiting at the station and satisfied with the thought that your braking is faulty at that speed be my guest.

These are issues that Bombardier have to deal with there is no cost to the government. All these things occured on test runs (that's why they have them) and you can't expect a newly designed train to run perfectly the first time you put it on the track. The V'locities seem to be reasonably sorted at this stage compared to say Sydney's Millenium trains or even Mtrain's Siemens.

As for road projects - of course the Geelong by-pass is on schedule as they haven't started building it yet. Remember the delayed opening of Citylink and the leaking tunnels and cracks in Bolte bridge?

Tayser is right - the Ballarat line never was proposed to have double track.
The Bendigo line was.
The Geelong line was proposed to be electrified.
The trains will NOT be in service by the end of 2005 - more problems, they will be returning to the factory at Dandenong to have drinking fountains fitted. (Why they just didnt do it during initial construction??)
The idea behind this project is good, they way it has been executed is not.

I still dont buy the theory that the Bendigo line has to go down to one track.
I wonder how much it has to do with Ballarat being Bracks' home town, and its arch rival is Bendigo... maybe somewhere along the line he thought it would give Ballarat an equal playing field. It sounds ridiculous :) But its a nice conspiracy theory.

bracks is a dickhead! there you go, conspiracy out!

The Bendigo line singling can be justified - in a way - because 70% of the line's patronage is between Kyneton and Melbourne, and there is little to no counter-peak commuting except between Melbourne/Sunbury and Castlemaine/Bendigo (which, based on the current first-train arrival at Bendigo, would mainly be uni/TAFE students anyway).

The Geelong line is really the only one that really gets much commuting in both directions, although that might change in the next couple of years to include the rest of the RFR lines.

oh for fucks sake yourself.
obviously you were too busy licking Steve Brack's arse and calling it ice cream if you say the trains have had no problems during testing. MY GOD you're a blind bat, there were panels flying off, noise issues, problems with brakes etc and these are deadly mistakes when you're travelling at 160km/h. The media always reports these things.
^Yes but so do buildings and cars. All new products have teething problems. They get ironed out and then it's all forgotten.

As for the speed though, whilst most services within 1-2 hours out of London AREN'T particulalrly fast, I still think they could have made the tracks at least capable of 200+kph speed. Much of the routes to Geelong and Traralgon especially are quite flat, so I can't see how this could have been achieved without undue extra cost.

And with time savings, I believe that many of the slow sections are in the suburban areas. Once they get them running at faster speeds (as they do in London), then there's no reason why it won't shave alot more time off.

They should have just had the balls to commit to upgrading the metropolitan corridor.
I guess with the added track to Dandenong, trains to Gippsland will be entitled to run faster, though added tracks should be added to atleast Newport and Sydenham.

I wonder what improvement train services on the Albury main line will see. The Broad Guage track apparantly will go within the decade, hopefully it'll be built at a standard of 160kph, allowing the XPT to run at its proper speed, and maybe, more fast trains for Victoria.

I wonder what improvement train services on the Albury main line will see. The Broad Guage track apparantly will go within the decade, hopefully it'll be built at a standard of 160kph, allowing the XPT to run at its proper speed, and maybe, more fast trains for Victoria.
Interesting point, because IIRC RFR was going to include Spencer St to Albury as well, which obviously got canned because of the cost.

I can see it being built to a higher standard because:
1. It's one of the busiest main lines in Australia,
2. Albury-Wodonga is one of the largest rural cities in Australia (over 80 thousand people); and Wodonga Rural City is the second-fastest growing rural municipality in Victoria after Mildura, if you exclude everything within a hundred or so kms of Melbourne; which means it will need additional and/or faster trains in the future.

Hopefully they decide to upgrade the line to Shepparton too. :)

If mildura is the fastest growing municipality in Victoria and also a popular tourist area, why doesn't the allmighty Brackswards Bracks built a freaking fast train line between Mildura and Melbourne aswell?

If mildura is the fastest growing municipality in Victoria and also a popular tourist area, why doesn't the allmighty Brackswards Bracks built a freaking fast train line between Mildura and Melbourne aswell?
According to thismedia release (http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/newmedia.nsf/798c8b072d117a01ca256c8c0019bb01/f7d3929ea62f314fca2570b600049d92!OpenDocument) it seems that Bracks is going to have to majorly upgrade the line, since it's so run down that it's not possible to run a train at a reasonable speed. The line speed is down to 10kmh in some places supposedly.

At least Bracks is doing something useful by introducing an extra daily train/coach service to Swan Hill/Mildura in April, at least temporarily. Swan Hill is finally going to get two trains daily which has to be a good thing, and brings it into line with places like Ararat. :D (Swan Hill is growing reasonably fast too, since Vicurban is building a massive estate at Tower Hill over the next 15 years or so)

If mildura is the fastest growing municipality in Victoria and also a popular tourist area, why doesn't the allmighty Brackswards Bracks built a freaking fast train line between Mildura and Melbourne aswell?
Because if not cost effective to spend hundreds of millions on a line that carries very little traffic.
With a population of only 50,000 for the whole district and being 550 KMs from Melbourne it would be a total waste of taxpayers money that could be better spent electricfing the Geelong line.

Because if not cost effective to spend hundreds of millions on a line that carries very little traffic.
With a population of only 50,000 for the whole district and being 550 KMs from Melbourne it would be a total waste of taxpayers money that could be better spent electricfing the Geelong line.
It appears that you've neglected places like Maryborough, Donald and a few other reasonable-sized towns. Mildura is the largest city in Victoria that doesn't have any rail service whatsoever (even Horsham has the Overland four times a week), and has amazing potential for tourism (hell, a new marina is going to be built within reasonable walking distance of Mildura station FFS).

Money should be spent to give all major places in Victoria a train service of some sort, before electrification to Geelong is even considered. Electrification to Geelong shouldn't be a high priority, at least. There are places that need it more, definitely. If Geelong were to be electrified, it would require a whole fleet of new fast electric trains, and it isn't worth it for just one line. It might be worth it if say, Bendigo, Ballarat and Traralgon were being electrified too, but not on its own.

Mildura is getting a rail service - planning to recommence passenger services has already begun. Its just not a fast rail service which as has been pointed out would be hard to justify.

The line to Traralgon used to be electrified but the overheads were ripped out in the early 90s. When it was electrified they ran exactly the same services as they do now - the loco just had a pantograph on it so I'm not sure why people see electrification as such a big thing. Its not like we're ever going to buy a fleet of TGV's, diesel trains are capable of more than adequate speeds for our purposes. The cost of maintaining overheads is horrendous. In regional areas I suspect it would also make services less reliable with trees and animals bringing them down periodically.

Mildura is getting a rail service - planning to recommence passenger services has already begun. Its just not a fast rail service which as has been pointed out would be hard to justify.

The line to Traralgon used to be electrified but the overheads were ripped out in the early 90s. When it was electrified they ran exactly the same services as they do now - the loco just had a pantograph on it so I'm not sure why people see electrification as such a big thing. Its not like we're ever going to buy a fleet of TGV's, diesel trains are capable of more than adequate speeds for our purposes. The cost of maintaining overheads is horrendous. In regional areas I suspect it would also make services less reliable with trees and animals bringing them down periodically.

Very valid points. I'm just trying to picture the animal that brings down an overhead line though.

Mildura is getting a rail service - planning to recommence passenger services has already begun. Its just not a fast rail service which as has been pointed out would be hard to justify.


That "planning" has been going on since Bracks won in 1999. The re-opening of rail services to Mildura, Leongatha, Ararat and Bairnsdale were batched together in the same package.
2 of those have been delivered, the other two, are running a good 5-6 years late.
The Mildura line I dont think will happen any time soon - Victoria just isnt prepared to standardise the track, so there is little point upgrading the Broad Gauge if its just going to be altered in the near future.
Track is a reasonable quality to Dunolly, 20kms or so north of Maryborough, from there though, the standard of track falls quite a bit all the way to Mildura.
It'll be a while I think before trains are running to Mildura.

Then there is the question, what type of train.
Locomotive hauled day train?
" " sleeper train?
Railcar service?

All have advantages/disadvantages associated with them.
A railcar would be not as comfortable for the journey of more than 6 hours.
A locohauled service would be more comfortable, yet just as boring.
A sleeper/overnight service each way would get people to their destination by morning, but if you're going from say St Arnaud to Dunolly, you may not want to travel late at night/early morning.
Perhaps they could do it this way:
Daily services:
Depart Melbourne late evening - arrive Mildura early morning.
Depart Mildura late evening - arrive Melbourne early morning.
Weekdays:
8am train - Mildura to Ballarat
9am train - Ballarat to Mildura
3pm train - Mildura to Ballarat
5pm train - Ballarat to Mildura
Could easily run those with sprinters, and be used just to connect people to towns.

The government has committed $9 million to preliminary works on the Mildura line this year which suggest a fair level of committment.

They committed $31million in 1999. $9million will buy you silch.

yeah they commited $31 million in 1999. Then why the hell after 6 years is there still no action? :wtf: How bout they get off their fat tax grabbing arses and DO SOMETHING!!! Mildura needs a train service because it has shown it's potential as a tourist destination/agri business centre and getting the train back spells social and economic benefits for the Mallee region. ANd the $9 million preliminary work...is that gonna take place now or in a 100 years time? Instead of pussy footing around, why don't they rip up the track, replace it with a fast rail standard broad gauge track and voila, you got yourself a brand new, modern train service that'll allow faster direct access to Mildura without the relative inconvieniences of spending 7-8 hours on a bus on which stops are required for food and toilet. It's not hard, if done properly the cost would be managable, (but you can't trust the Bracks government because their gross incompetence will for sure result in budget blowouts and delays).

That would have been very fast work as they were only elected in November 1999. The allocation you are referring to was actually in the 01/02 budget and was, at the time, for all four of the lines to be re-opened.

I recall there being some problems for the Mildura passenger service with one of the freight operators refusing to cooperate.
Maybe it was the same operarator that could find two sets of automatic gates for a truck repair business on Footscray Road but also insisted that hundreds of cyclists and pedestrians/joggers take a 500 metre double detour and an un signalled crossing to cross their precious tracks.

Freight Australia wanted the state to pay 100% for gauge conversion, I think.

it's political bickering like this that always comprimises major projects. I'M FUCKEN SICK OF IT!!!!! assshole governments and crybaby companies.

It is something you'll have to live with. I'd rather have the bickering than live in a communist society.
Atleast we have the right to kick the tools out every 3/4 years :)
The onus is on them to perform, other wise they'll loose their jobs.

hey yeah!!! I'll be helping booting bracksy outta the office in 2006....

Me too, but its not as if there is an alternative.
When you look at the wider picture, Bracks is not that bad, it's just his cabinet is stacked full of fools. I guess that's in a way good political thinking - it removes potential threats from trying to seize power...
Tim Holding, Hermyer, Batchelor, Kosky, Delahunty are complete dopes.

I think Peter Beattie's government works on the same principle. How many of his underlings have fallen on their swords over incompetence?

An incompetent minister would be better than a downright stupid and/or evil minister, surely. :lol:

Lol yes...

yeah they commited $31 million in 1999. Then why the hell after 6 years is there still no action? :wtf:

OK this is how the Labour Government (and the Libs in part) Work.

Project investigation. 4 Mil

Costs 1 Mil to contract a tendered contractor (TC).

TC then subcontracts a Sub TC (Another 1 mil)

TC then requests another 1 mil to allow for administration costs.
Government does so (at a cost of .5 mil) Lawyers acting for both (CT lawyers and CO) costs another .5 mil + administration costs of .5 mil (paper is expencive when a lawyer does some value adding to it)

Then the Serveyors of the sub CT Do some work .5 mil

amendments to cotract of the original CT 1 mil
Lawyers fees 1 Mil

Administration fees .5 mil

Reissue of tender to Sub CT and reinvestigation of the same are surveyed buy the original servey 1.5 mil


Lawyers 1 Mil

How much am I up to?