தமிழ்நாடு வரலாறு - Tamilnadu History Updates & Discussions [Archive]

chidambaram_mech04

March 18th, 2010, 11:34 AM

*During the classical period (i.e. Sangam Age) Kongu was under the rule of the Chēra kings and many vēļir chieftains. The society of those times is well represented in the Patiṟṟuppattu and other akam and puṟam anthologies. During that period this region was technologically well advanced and was visited by the traders of the East and West. Evidence suggests that this region was occupied right from Iron Age (1000 BC).

*The Potiṉi hill (Paḻaṉi), the abode of the Tamil God Murukaṉ,is in this region.

*Ayirai, another famous hill of the Chēras mentioned in Patiṟṟuppattu(30,79) as the “Ayirai where dwells the fearful deity” is located in Kongu region.

*Kumaṇaṉ who donated his head for the cause of benevolence and Pēkaṉ, one among the seven great philanthropists of Sangam Age who ruled over the Potiṉi hills of the Kongu region were eulogised by famous Sangam poets Perun͂cittiraṉār and Peruntalai-c-Ca̅ttaṉa̅r.

*Kāmūr (present Kangayam) ruled by Kaḻuvuḷ is mentioned in Akanāṉūṟu and Patiṟṟuppattu. It is situated in Kongu region.

*The Kutiraimalai region ruled by Pittaṅkoṟṟaṉ alluded in Puṟananūṟu(168-172) is situated in Kongu region.

*Poruntil Iḷaṅkīraṉa̅r , a famous Sangam poet is located near Paḻani in Kongu region. Recent excavation conducted by Pondicherry Central University brought out many evidences to attest the flourishing activities of this region in those days. During the excavation, about 2 kgs., of paddy of Sangam Age has been recovered. Large quantities of beads of precious and semi precious stones and glass beads, have been brought out from the excavation, besides evidence for glass bead industry in the habitation mound.

*The Industrial and Trade centre of Koṭumaṇam (present Kodumanal in Erode District), recorded in the Patiṟṟuppattu belongs to the Kongu region. This place was excavated by Tamil University during 1980s. The megalithic burials have yielded many semi precious stone beads, iron implements, brass objects, and potteries with graffiti marks. The excavations in the habitation area yielded evidences for the existence of metal furnaces. Besides, many pottery inscriptions of old Tamil characters (Tamil-Brahmi) dated from the third century B.C. have been obtained.

*Pavaṇanti Aṭikaḷ who wrote the grammar work Naṉṉūl, lived in present Sīṉa̅napuram (Jainapuram) in Kongu region and Aṭiyārkunalla̅r the famous commentator of the Cilappatika̅ram lived in Nirambai which is also situated in Kongu region. The famous Jain work Peruṅkatai was written by the poet Koṅguvēḷ who hailed from Kongu region. The Jain temple of Vijayamangalam indicates the spread of Jainism in Kongu region also.

*In Kongu region there are many megalithic burials of Iron Age found in the form of stone circles and stone heaps. This region was a nodal region for the trade between the East coast ports and West coast ports of Ancient Tamiḻakam. A large number of Roman coins were recovered around Veḷḷalūr, Chāvaṭippāḷaiym, and Pollachi region. In fact, only Kongu region yielded the bulk of Roman coins found in the whole of India. This attests to the fact that Kongu region played an important role in Maritime Trade with Roman world through Palghat Pass in the Sangam Age.

*The famous Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions found at Pukaļūr, near Karūr, corroborate the Sangam evidence relating to the Chēra dynasty. A third century inscription on musical notes is found at Aṟachalūr, which is in Kongu region.

*The excavations in the sites near Coimbatore namely Pērūr and Poluvāmpaṭṭi have brought to light many stone, glass, and shell beads, iron implements, terracotta objects, ear rings, the potteries with the graffiti marks and so on.

*A Punch-marked coin found in Sūlūr near Coimbatore attests to the trade connection between North India and Tamilnadu during the Sangam Age. Distinguished scholar Iravatham Mahadevan is of the view that a symbol found on an old pot at Sūlūr is similar to an Indus Script symbol.

*More than 250 Iron Age and Sangam Age sites have been so far identified in the Kongu region (Old Coimbatore District) by various scholars during their field work.

*It is generally agreed that Karūr Van͂ci (Karūr), the capital of Chēras was situated on the bank of Āṉporunai (present Amarāvati River), which is in the Kongu area.

*The famous port Musiṟi, alluded to in Sangam Literature situated on the West coast of Ancient Tamiḻakam, belonged to the Chēra Kings. Only recently, this port has been discovered and excavated by the Kerala Council for Historical Research. The findings would go to prove the maritime activity of Musiṟi, as noted in Akana̅ṉūṟu (149), which mentions that the ships (from Rome) laden with gold visited the port and returned with pepper. In this excavation, Roman potsherds, gold objects, Chēra coins, Brick structures, Boat wharf and wooden boat of 2200 years old have been unearthed. It may be remembered that this port was the important emporium for exporting the semi precious stone beads of the Kongu area.

*The above evidence suggests the importance of hosting World Classical Tamil Conference at Coimbatore the seat of Kongu region.

http://www.ulakathamizhchemmozhi.org/en/content/coimbatore-2010

ktpathi

March 19th, 2010, 04:45 AM

Hello Alphastallion - Good thought and nice initative, I appreciate it...

ceeznic pirate

March 19th, 2010, 02:36 PM

This I got as one of the forward mails a few months before.

* 1 = ONDRU -one
* 10 = PATHU -ten
* 100 = NOORU-hundred
* 1,000 = AAYIRAM-thousand
* 10,000 = PATHTHAYIRAM -ten thousand
* 100,000 = LATCHAM-hundred thousand
* 1,000,000 = PATHU LATCHAM - one million
* 10,000,000 = KODI-ten million
* 100,000,000 = ARPUTHAM-hundred million
* 1,000,000,000 = NIGARPUTHAM- one billion
* 10,000,000,000 = KUMBAM-ten billion
* 100,000,000,000 = KANAM-hundred billion
* 1,000,000,000,000 = KARPAM-one trillion
* 10,000,000,000,000 = NIKARPAM -ten trillion
* 100,000,000,000,000 = PATHUMAM -hundred trillion
* 1,000,000,000,000,000 = SANGGAM -one zillion
* 10,000,000,000,000,000 = VELLAM -ten zillion
* 100,000,000,000,000,000 = ANNIYAM -hundred zillion
* 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 = ARTTAM -?////
* 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 = PARARTTAM -anyboby ?
* 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 = POORIYAM -<>?#%^&
* 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = MUKKODI -&^*^%^#
* 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = MAHAYUGAM -????????????????

One of the oldest and greatest languages in the World. :cheers:

More Info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_units_of_measurement)

mugunthsboa

March 19th, 2010, 04:03 PM

mugunthsboa

March 19th, 2010, 04:10 PM

That movie has increased the searching of Tamil history for many! Could be kollywood could cash money if they can make some real historical movie with real facts.

AO was a fantasy movie with one concept that "Pandya kingdom and Chola kingdom use to fight among them" We have to wait and see what fantasy ideas we may see in AO2!

Hey is there an AO2 in production?
I was so fascinated about the movie when they captured the chola foot prints in SEA. I have previously done some research for myself online(incl. Wiki) Was so amazed at the extent of pwoer the tamil rulers exhibited. Almost all of the presetn day Indonesia and parts of Vietnam,Cambodia,Malaysia,Singapore and thailand were ruled by Cholas at their peak.
There are very striking evidences that speak abt influence of cholas and tamils in this region.Singapore had its name from Singapuram named by Srivijaya. Angkorwat is a hindu temple and had once had the sanctums of Ammans.
I had personally noted some highways and streets in northern malaysia and southern thailand called as Jalan/Street after 'Raja Chulan'. There are beaches in singapore and malaysia that are called after pallavas as palawan beach. I was amazed to see a tamil film catching this idea which I was so fascinated about.Good work selva!!

georgenadar

March 20th, 2010, 04:47 PM

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/4447123006_37218c90b6_o.jpg
Pamban Bridge -- photo taken by --prabhakaran

The Pamban bridge on the sea of south India of “PALK STRAIT” that is very the old connectivity of Rameswaram island to mainland India.. The name

Pamban Bridge most suitable for both Road and rail bridges. It is the longest sea bridge in INDIA at a length of 2.5 kms and both the bridges stand high

above all the bridges in India by the means of artistic architecture.
Exactly 97 yrs old railway bridge was constructed by a German engineer named SCHERZER with the cost of Indian rupee 20 lakhs and the help of 600

workers.. The rail bridge construction work began in June 1911 and was completed in June 1914.there were no loss of human lives while construction

of the bridge. This is the only connectivity of the island till the road bridge was opened in the year 0f 1988.

But the road bridge construction was originally started in the year of 1971,
Adjoin the very old “cantilever railway bridge” (the center portion of the bridge is openable or in engineering terms one call it “movable” bridge to give a

way, the ships to cross the palk strait.. The road bridge foundation laid by SMT. INDIRA GANDHI and the bridge was completed when Rajeev Gandhi

was prime minister of India.
He inaugurated the bridge for the public use in the year of 1988. The 17 long years was taken to construct the sea – road-bridge and so many

workers died while construct the bridge and also the natural disturbance by storm, cyclone to finish the project on time.

In the recent years the southern railway had converted the so called “meter gauge track” in to “broad gauge track” in the part of their expansion work

of one line connectivity of all over INDIA. it helps to reduce the travel time by hours and also increase the rail traffic all over India.
The railway officials took a high risk adoption of changeover the entire rail track and this time they joined their hands with govt of India STRUCTURAL

ENGINEERING RESEARCH CENTER-CHENNAI and they done it in a record time, without a loss of human life. the entrance of the bridge from both sides

of” Pamban” and “Mandapam” railway station one can feel the strong sea wind as well as see a artistic ,breath taking sea view. The railway officials

initiate all the official works to Include the PAMBAN RAILWAY BRIDGE in the list of world heritage sites of UNESCO..

AND WE HOPE THE BRIDGE COULD FIND THE PLACE IN THE LIST APART FROM THE HUMANS EYES….

ChennaiIndian

March 24th, 2010, 11:38 PM

http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/25/stories/2010032557610500.htm

CHENNAI: The State Archaeology Department will start work in April at the Rajakkamangalam site in Tirunelveli district where sculptures from the early Pandyan period have been discovered, said T.S. Sridhar, Commissioner, Archaeology and Museums, here on Wednesday.

Presenting some recent archaeological findings in the State at the Sankara Parvathy endowment seminar organised by the Department of Indian History at the University of Madras, Mr. Sridhar said work at Eraniyar Kudiyiruppu, where idols dating to the early Pandyan period had been recovered, would go on for around three months.

He said the department used to work at two sites each year earlier but lack of funds had restricted it to working at one site each year for the last couple of years.

Sathyabhama Badhreenath, Superintending Archaeologist, Archaeological Survey of India, Chennai Circle, made a presentation on the growth and evolution of temples in south India.

She said there was a clear pattern of evolution across dynasties and the Pallava, Chola, Vijayanagar and Nayak periods were clearly distinguishable in temple architecture.

Over time, the temples became more ornate and complex, but some patterns were also frozen as was seen in the idols of the later period which adhered to stricter norms, she said.

Earlier, G. Venkataraman, head of department, Indian History, said the endowment dated back to 1921. He also requested Mr. Sridhar and Ms. Badhreenath to provide opportunities for internships to students of the department.

Marathaman

March 28th, 2010, 08:25 AM

I didn't know where else to put this.

A new temple is coming up in Jogeshwari (Mumbai). Carving work is being done in Karaikudi
http://picasaweb.google.com/purnaprajna/TEMPLECONSTRUCTIONOFPILLARSVIGRAHAMANTAPA#5447306261140975986
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9-3lVKPdpwY/S5if7dqQN8I/AAAAAAAAAXc/W0GB5bL-w0Y/DSC01864.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_9-3lVKPdpwY/S5if_vxyo0I/AAAAAAAAAXk/ON59GhdikP8/DSC01866.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9-3lVKPdpwY/S5igBOq1FqI/AAAAAAAAAXo/ZA_Au2WAqGc/DSC01869.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9-3lVKPdpwY/S5i4EKQNKNI/AAAAAAAAAYk/IAca50Uvqjs/Image0042.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9-3lVKPdpwY/S5i4G11sifI/AAAAAAAAAYo/B0AIwyD9wD4/Image0043.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9-3lVKPdpwY/S5i4LvYRsXI/AAAAAAAAAY8/ZRt92x1ATk8/Image0047.jpg

Video:
http://picasaweb.google.com/purnaprajna/TEMPLECONSTRUCTIONOFPILLARSVIGRAHAMANTAPA#5447295999522191506

jaish

March 28th, 2010, 07:09 PM

Hello Alphastallion - Good thought and nice initative, I appreciate it...

Me too we should proud of we have

Arul Murugan

April 1st, 2010, 03:38 AM

1200 year old Chola inscription found near Trichy

http://dkn.dinakaran.com/pdf/2010/04/01/20100401a_005103013.jpg

DKN

satishanu

April 1st, 2010, 03:45 AM

wow..great find..they got to preserve it..looks like ariyalur has lot of precious stuff beneath

dhandapanik

April 1st, 2010, 06:27 AM

Something related to Ayirathil oruvan movie
http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/indra_aaram1/

http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/indra_aaram2/

http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/indra_aaram3/

Arul Murugan

April 8th, 2010, 03:24 AM

Indus-like inscription on South Indian pottery from Thailand

http://www.hindu.com/2010/04/08/images/2010040856602201.jpg

Figure 1: The pottery inscription from Thailand with Indus-like symbols, probably on south Indian megalithic pottery.

A fragmentary pottery inscription was found during excavations conducted by the Thai Fine Arts at Phu Khao Thong in Thailand about three years ago. (Dr. Berenice Bellina of the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, France, sent me a photograph of the object: Figure 1)

The discovery of a Tamil-Brahmi pottery inscription of about the second century CE at the same site was reported earlier ( The Hindu, July 16, 2006). One can presume that the present inscription is also from the Tamil country and belongs approximately to the same period. The two characters incised on the pottery now reported are not in the Brahmi script. They appear to be graffiti symbols of the type seen on the South Indian megalithic pottery of the Iron Age-Early Historical Period (second century BCE to third century CE).

http://www.hindu.com/2010/04/08/images/2010040856602202.jpg
Figure 2: Megalithic symbol at Sanur in Tamil Nadu (left) and signs in the Indus texts at Kalibangan (right, top) and Harappa (bottom).

What makes the discovery exciting is that the two symbols on the pottery resemble the Indus script, and even the sequence of the pair can be found in the Indus texts, especially those from Harappa.

The symbol looking vaguely like an ‘N' appears to be the same as the Indus signs 47 or 48 (in Figure 3). Professor B.B. Lal, former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India, showed that these Indus signs have a remarkable resemblance to the megalithic symbol occurring at Sanur, near Tindivanam, and elsewhere in Tamil Nadu (Figure 2). More recently, the same symbol has turned up on two pottery fragments from Pattanam in Kerala (probably the same as Musiri of the Sangam Age). I have compared the symbols with the Indus signs depicting a seated anthropomorphic deity.

The symbol on the Thai pottery resembles a diamond. It occurs in the Indus script in diamond or oval forms (Signs 261 and 373 in Figure 3).

http://www.hindu.com/2010/04/08/images/2010040856602203.jpg
Figure 3: Indus signs and texts. Note the same sequence of two signs on Thai pottery and miniature tablets from Harappa.

What is extraordinary about the present find is the occurrence of the two symbols on the pottery in the same sequence as found in the Indus texts (see for example texts 4589 and 5265 from Harappa, Figure 3). The Thai pottery has only two symbols. Another symbol might have been lost owing to the fragmentary state of the pottery.

Sequences such as this on the Thai pottery and those reported on the inscribed Neolithic stone axe from Sembiyan Kandiyur and on megalithic pottery from Sulur (near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu) provide evidence for the survival of the Indus script in South India during the megalithic age, and for the possibility that the languages of the Indus Civilisation and South India belong to the same family, namely Dravidian.

(The sign and text numbers are cited from The Indus Script: Texts, Concordance and Tables, by Iravatham Mahadevan (1977). The author is Honorary Consultant of the Indus Research Centre at Roja Muthiah Research Library in Chennai.)

http://www.hindu.com/2010/04/08/stories/2010040856602200.htm

Arasu

April 8th, 2010, 05:38 PM

^^ It appears that there is a close connection between ancient Tamil country and the Indus civilisation. Hope, they are able to decipher the symbols one day and understand what they say.

nangilraams

April 12th, 2010, 12:46 PM

nice thread

satishanu

April 14th, 2010, 06:55 PM

http://beta.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00103/14THPATTISWARAM_103951e.jpg

Source: http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/article396485.ece

maduraithala

April 16th, 2010, 12:20 PM

We had our golden age when the Medieval and Later Chola like RajaRaja, Rajendra and Kulothunga Cholans were ruling. The temple at Tanjavur and Gangaikonda Cholapuram will speak for itself. Also one of the greatest king to ever rule at least half of India is Raja Raja Cholan. But why he is not promoted like the North Indian kings such as Ashoka? Raja Raja is also an undefeated king like Ashoka and even he has stepped away to give the power to his uncle when he has to become the King and waited for another 15 years to come to the power, no King in any history would have done like him.

Valid point...still not many north-Indians know that an army of Rajendra Chola advanced upto the Ganges and won virtually every kingdom that was on its way...Infact no other Indian empire had its boundaries extended upto the Middle-east countries( Correct me if am wrong)...It is a irony that ASI refused the installation of Raja raja's statue inside the big temple premises....There are a lot of conspiracy theories flying around in this regard...

Marathaman

May 19th, 2010, 05:15 PM

Beautiful 9th-10th century temple - ThiruNageswaran Koil, Kumbakonam.

http://picasaweb.google.com/injamaven/ThiruNageswaranKoilKumbakonamTN#
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9532/p1050194.jpg

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9600/p1050176s.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1553/p1050191e.jpg

Marathaman

May 19th, 2010, 05:18 PM

Valid point...still not many north-Indians know that an army of Rajendra Chola advanced upto the Ganges and won virtually every kingdom that was on its way...Infact no other Indian empire had its boundaries extended upto the Middle-east countries( Correct me if am wrong)...It is a irony that ASI refused the installation of Raja raja's statue inside the big temple premises....There are a lot of conspiracy theories flying around in this regard...

Cholas did not expand upto middle-east. The subjugated kingdoms of eastern India and made them tributary states.

They did create colonies in SE Asia though.

Anniyan

May 19th, 2010, 05:36 PM

It is a irony that ASI refused the installation of Raja raja's statue inside the big temple premises....There are a lot of conspiracy theories flying around in this regard...

ASI was right in denying the permission to install the statue of imaginary figure of Rajaraja Chola and the politicians name in the pedestral.

Marathaman

May 19th, 2010, 05:38 PM

Why does one need a statue of RajaRaja there? There is already a portrait of him inside the temple, and it serves no purpose. Its a World Heritage Site, not to be tampered with/modified.

maduraithala

May 21st, 2010, 10:49 AM

Over 85 copper plates and twelve bronze icons were found in the Kailasanathar temple in Kazhukanni Muttam in Tiruindalur village here on Thursday in a first-of-its-kind archaeological discovery in Tamil Nadu.

The copper plates — 45-cm long and 20-cm broad — were strung around a two-foot diameter copper ring and forged with the Chola emblem.

An earlier discovery of copper plates was made in Villupuram, says an official of Hindu Regious and Charitable Endowments. The emblem with two fishes fringed by a seated tiger to its left and a bow and arrow to its right and an umbrella indicated that the plates belonged to the Cholas.

The bronze icons include Ganapathy, Appar, Manikavasagar, Thirugnyanasambandhar, Rishabandagar with Amman, Sandikeshwarar, Chandrashekarar with Ammam, Karaikal Ammaiyar with a cymbal, Somaskandar (Lord Shiva with his consort and son), and Valli. The find points to the Chola period of 11th or 12th century AD, says Bala Padhmanaban, special Revenue Inspector, HR&CE. According to him, the Skandha Maalai (the garland over the shoulder of Lord Shiva) pointed to the middle Chola period. Further, the Perumal temple at half a km vicinity of Kailasanathar temple was built in the 11th century and is inscribed to be the contemporary of this temple.

Along with these were worship artefacts such as a guindy, thiruchanam and asaradevar. The rationale for the presence of a Nataraja icon amid the above pantheon was strengthened further with the pieces of broken Thiruvasi (found behind Nataraja idols) being part of the find.

Tamil inscriptions

The copper plates found here are inscribed in Grindam script. Epigraphical study was still under way to trace out Tamil inscriptions in this copper plate ring. According to Mr.Padhmanaban, the earlier discovery of copper plates usually carried grindam inscriptions in the beginning and the end, eulogising the endowing king. They would later carry Tamil inscriptions.

“The area must have been a sathurvedhimangalam (place where learned brahmans were settled by the king) and consequently huge endownments had to be made to support the temple upon which the brahmans depended,” says Mr.Padmanaban. The practice of settling brahmans started with the Pallava period and it continued with the Cholas.

The temple falls under the Parimalaranganathar Devasthanam of the HR&CE and the find came through during excavation works for the construction of the ‘muga mandapam' carried out as part of the temple restoration works. According to archaeologists, the find of 85 copper plates attached to one ring with a two feet diameter is a treasured discovery, both for the temple and archaeology.

http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/21/stories/2010052163971500.htm

maduraithala

May 21st, 2010, 10:55 AM

The systematic excavation of Eraniyan Kudiyiruppu on the banks of the Nambiyar river at Rajakkalmangalam near Nanguneri in Tirunelveli district commenced on Thursday.

During the course of informal exploration at Eraniyan Kudiyiruppu, a good number of sculptures from a dilapidated temple belonging to early Pandya period were collected. Some of the sculptures were found with ‘grantha' script.

The invaluable yield of archaeological evidence throws light on the possible existence of a buried temple belonging to early Pandya period (8th to 9th century). The antiquities collected from this spot, particularly sculptures, are now on display for public view at Thirumalai Naicker Mahal Museum, Madurai.

Inaugurating the excavation, Minister for School Education and Archaeology Thangam Thennarasu said that the exercise would be completed within 2 to 3 months and the government had allotted Rs. 2 lakh for the purpose.

The ‘Nambiyar Civilization' should be explored completely, District Collector M. Jayaraman noted.

Minister for Environment, Youth Welfare and Sports T.P.M. Maideen Khan; Principal Secretary and Commissioner, Department of Archaeology, T.S. Sridhar; Tirunelveli MP S.S. Ramasubbu and Radhapuram MLA M. Appavu spoke.

http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/21/stories/2010052161030300.htm

Marathaman

May 21st, 2010, 10:58 AM

Cholas had a great tradition of record-keeping on copper plates. Most of these were stored inside temples. Things like land grants, revenue collection etc. etc.

Marathaman

June 22nd, 2010, 01:34 PM

Can someone please glean some details from this text? I can't read it.

http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=35&threadParent=3

Arasu

June 23rd, 2010, 03:29 AM

^^ There is some problem in the page. A message is displayed and the screen gets frozen.

The tamil there uses some uncommon terms used specifically in the architectural/structural design areas.

Arul Murugan

July 4th, 2010, 03:41 PM

Agathiyar-Cauvery River mythical story is found as carvings from 12th century near Erode's Chiniyampalaiyam on the bank's of river cauvery

http://tm.dinakaran.com/pdf/2010/07/04/20100704a_006105004.jpg

DKN

Arul Murugan

July 17th, 2010, 07:22 PM

Medieval chola kings chart

It is interesting to see Kulothunga Cholan is from Chalukya Chola family.

Kulothunga Cholan is born to Rajaraja narendra Telugu Chalukya King and Tamil royal Chola family Ammanga Devi who is Raja raja Cholan's grand daughter. Vimalathithan a Vengi king might be also a Telugu king married to Raja rajan's daughter Kunthavai. :nuts:

Lot of fusion between Tamil and Telugu family kings right from Raja raja Cholan time. :lol:

AP & TN looks to have lot of links through out the time line of the history.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ta/a/ae/Chola_Chart.PNG

karthikarthik

July 18th, 2010, 07:09 AM

gr8 family tree...

ChennaiIndian

July 18th, 2010, 07:23 PM

^^ Cholas who had their mother tongue as Telugu and ruled in AP are called 'Telugu Cholas'. I think 'Telugu Cholas' was a term coined by the British archaeologists; not sure though. This is because the core Tamil kingdoms were constituted by Pandyas, Cholas (original Cholas) and Cheras.

There were lots of inter-linguistic marriages between the Cholas in Tamil, Telugu and Kannada (Hoysala) kings at that time. In this regard, the Pandyas were very conservative to the extent that inter-linguistic marriages were less prevalent than amongst Cholas.

ktpathi

July 25th, 2010, 03:16 AM

புதுக்கோட்டை : புதுக்கோட்டை அருகே நடத்தப்பட்ட ஆய்வின் போது, 13ம் நூற்றாண்டைச் சேர்ந்த ஏழு கல்வெட்டுகள் கண்டுபிடிக்கப்பட்டுள்ளன.

புதுக்கோட்டை வரலாற்று பண்பாட்டு ஆய்வு மையத்தின் சார்பில் மாவட்டத்தின் பல்வேறு பகுதிகளில் வரலாற்றுத் தகவல்களை சேகரிக்கும் விதமாக ஆய்வுப் பணிகள் நடந்து வருகிறது. அதன் ஒருபகுதியாக இலுப்பூர் அடுத்த வெள்ளஞ்சார் கிராமத்தில், சிதிலமடைந்து கவனிப்பாரின்றி விடப்பட்ட பழமைவாய்ந்த குலோத்துங்க சோழீச்சுவரம் கோவிலில் நடத்தப்பட்டது. ஆய்வின் போது 13ம் நூற்றாண்டைச் சேர்ந்த திரிபுவன சக்கரவர்த்தி சுந்தர பாண்டியன் காலத்து கல்வெட்டுகள்(1212-1239ம் ஆண்டு) இரண்டு, இரண்டாம் சடையவர்மன் குலசேகர பாண்டியன் காலத்து கல்வெட்டுகள் (1237ம் ஆண்டு) இரண்டு, வீரபாண்டியன் காலத்து கல்வெட்டுகள் (1253-1274ம் ஆண்டு) இரண்டு, விஜயநகர நாயக்கர் காலத்து கல்வெட்டு ஒன்று என ஏழு கல்வெட்டுகள் கண்டுபிடிக்கப்பட்டன. இதன்மூலம் வெள்ளஞ்சார் குலோத்துங்க சோழீச்சுவரம் கோவில் 12ம் நூற்றாண்டில் குலோத்துங்க சோழன் காலத்தில் எழுப்பியது. பின்னர் இக்கோவிலில் 13ம் நூற்றாண்டில் பாண்டிய மன்னர்கள் திருப்பணிகள் செய்து புதுப்பித்துள்ளது தெரியவந்தது.

இக்கோவிலுக்கு வெள்ளஞ் சார் கிராமத்தில் வாழ்ந்த வணிகர்கள், விவசாய பெருங்குடி மக்கள், செல்வந்தர்கள், தேவகன்மியர்கள் ஆகியோர் ஏராளமான நிலங்களை தானமாக வழங்கியது. பாண்டிய மன்னர் இரண்டாம் சடையவர்மன் குலசேகர பாண்டியன் இப்பகுதியில் 1237ம் ஆண்டு முதல் ஆட்சி புரிந்தது உள்ளிட்ட தகவலும் தெரிய வந்துள்ளது. இவை இம்மாவட்டத்தின் வரலாற்று மேலாய்வுக்கு பயனளிப்பதாக உள்ளதாக ஆய்வு மைய தலைவர் டாக்டர் ராஜாமுகம்மது தெரிவித்துள்ளார்.

ktpathi

July 25th, 2010, 03:27 AM

Arul - The diagram you have provided is explains Chola hierarchy well.

The information on stone evidence indicates the regaining strength of Pandiyans. But I also believe that we would have been better-off under Cholas, because at that time the Cholas were ruling nearly 3 centuries and must have well planned and organized stuff. But due to Pandiyan invasion they have lost and later are the history that Tamils were never ruled by Tamils again apart from recent political stuffs.

Arasu

July 25th, 2010, 07:08 AM

^^ All great empires come to an end - Romans, Ottoman, or the British. Cholas are no exception.

What is exceptional about them is that they had been ruling parts/all of Tamilnadu from the dawn of history all the way to the 13 th century AD with brief interregnum.

dhandapanik

July 26th, 2010, 07:20 AM

isham_9626

July 26th, 2010, 08:00 AM

Compared to Pandiyas and Cheras, Cholas ruled TN(i think including KL) for more time.

Not only Tamilnadu and kerala, they ruled entire south india and their border ends before Maharashtra in north and in east they were till indonesia. When compare to Cheras and Pandiyas, Cholas were the strongest among them and they are famous for architects. Thus the result ended in Tanjore temple, the great architectural site in india. Most of the old temples in india were built by cholas.

dhandapanik

July 26th, 2010, 09:02 AM

Not only Tamilnadu and kerala, they ruled entire south india and their border ends before Maharashtra in north and in east they were till indonesia. When compare to Cheras and Pandiyas, Cholas were the strongest among them and they are famous for architects. Thus the result ended in Tanjore temple, the great architectural site in india. Most of the old temples in india were built by cholas.

Yes.. GangaikondaCholapuram is also best. I havent visited Airavateeswarar temple. Along with Tanjore temple, these 2 are listed in UNESCO world heritage sites with name "The great Chola temples".

karthikarthik

August 4th, 2010, 05:36 AM

Thirteen panchaloha idols were unearthed at a private land in the famous pilgrim centre of Vailankanni in Nagapattinam district today.

Official sources said that the idols, two to three feet tall, included those of Lord Nataraja, Vinayaka (Lord Ganesh) and other deities. A few decorative items were also unearthed along with the idols.

The land belonged to Michaelswamy, head master of a primary school, who had commenced construction works there, and the workers while digging heard a metallic sound and informed him. Revenue and police officials were then informed.

Nagapattinam district collector C Munianathan said the district administration had informed the archaeological department about the find.

The collector said 13 panchaloha idols and 86 copper plates were unearthed three months back while renovation works were undertaken at the ancient Kamakshi Amman Samedha Kailasanathar temple at Kazhukkanimuttam village near Mayiladuthurai.

"The Kazhukkanimuttam findings proved to be one of the most exciting findings in recent times providing information about the Chola dynasty and the government had displayed them in the World Classical Tamil Conference held at Coimbatore (in June). Against this backdrop, the Vailankanni findings also assume importance," he said.

A large number of people visited the site at Vailankanni, and offered floral worship. The idols are now kept at the Nagapattinam taluka office.

The Basilica of Our Lady of Good Health is located at Vailankkani.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_13-panchaloha-idols-unearthed-in-tamil-nadu_1418266

Arul Murugan

August 4th, 2010, 05:40 AM

^^

http://dkn.dinakaran.com/pdf/2010/08/04/20100804a_004101012.jpg

DKN

Marathaman

August 4th, 2010, 05:43 AM

What is the brown encrustation? Is that soil or corrosion?

Also, any info on the situation of the idols when they were found? Were they buried on purpose?

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 09:18 AM

ASI was right in denying the permission to install the statue of imaginary figure of Rajaraja Chola and the politicians name in the pedestral.
For that matter, all Gods and Goddess' statues are duly imaginary. :)

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 09:40 AM

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi/epi-pic2.gif

Tamil Brahmi Script

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi/epi-pic3.gif

Development of the Tamil Brahmi Script into
Vattezhuthu and Tamil Script

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 09:42 AM

Recent Survey on Indian Epigraphy (1996) place inscriptions of Tamil Nadu (http://www.tnarch.gov.in/epi/ins-var.htm) at the top of the list. The categories of language (http://www.tnarch.gov.in/epi/lang.htm), alphabet and number of inscriptions on both stone and copper plates (http://www.tnarch.gov.in/epi/copper.htm) also indicate Tamil Nadu as the first among Indian States. From this survey it can easily be understood that Tamil Nadu has the bulk of inscriptions found in India. It has been estimated with a fair degree of accuracy that the inscriptions written in Tamil occupy the first position in volume, amounting nearly to 20,000, followed by those in Kannada (10,600), Sanskrit (7,500) and Telugu (4,500). Inscriptions in Tamil language are noticed from the third century BCE onwards (http://www.tnarch.gov.in/epi/dist.htm).
(Source: Journal of the Epigraphical Society of India Volume 19 : 1993)

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi/chart1.gif

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi/chart3.gif

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9442/tableff.png

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 10:14 AM

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi/epi-pic6.gif
Tamil Brahmi Inscription at Tiruvadavur-Madurai

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic2.gif
Natural Cavern With Tamil-Brahmi Inscription, Mamandur, Kanchipuram District

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic3.gif
Anaimalai, Madurai District

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic10.gif
Rouletted ware (Indian imitation) with inscription, Alagankulam, Ramanathapuram District.
Camutaha

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic1.gif
Natural Cavern With Tamil-Brahmi Inscription, Kudumiyanmalai, Pudukkottai District

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic7.gif
Tamil-Brahmi Rock Bed Inscription, 2nd Century CE. Arunattarmalai, Pugalur Near Karur
Line 1 Korrantai (I*) lava (n)
Line 2 munru

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic4.gif
2nd Century CE Tamil-Brahmi Inscription, Anaimalai, Madurai District
Line 1 - Iva kunratu uraiyul patantan eri aritan
Line 2 - Attuvayi aratta kayipan

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic6.gif
Rock-cavern inscription in Tamil-Brahmi Script, 1st Century BCE, Jambai, Tiruvannamalai District
Satiyaputo atiyan netuman anci itta pali

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic5.gif
Tamil-Brahmi Rock Bed Inscription, 1st century BCE Sittannavasal, Pudukkottai District
Eruminatu kumul-ur piranta kavuti-i tenku-cirupocil ilayar ceyta atit-anam

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic8.gif
Personal Name in Tamil-Brahmi, 1st Century BCE, Silver Ring From Karur
Peravatan

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil-brahmi/pic9.gif
Black and Red Pottery with Tamil-Brahmi Letters, 1st century CE Teriruveli,
Ramanathapuram District
Nedunki[li]

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 10:16 AM

Office of the Epigraphy wing - Ooty
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi/epi-pic8.gif

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi/epi-pic7.gif

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 10:41 AM

Tamil Brahmi script was prevalent in Tamil Nadu from 3rd century BCE onwards and continued with variations upto 4th century of Common Era. During this time, the practice of writing Sanskrit letters in Tamil Nadu, commonly known as Grantha script was popularised by the Pallavas. This continued for nearly two centuries i.e. from 4th – 6th century. The Tamil script evolved from the Grantha script around 7th century CE.

Inscriptions in the Tamil script are found from the beginning of the seventh century CE. Inscriptions in this script are found only in the northern portion of Tamil Nadu upto the beginning of the eleventh century CE. In the extreme south i.e. the Pandya country, Vattezhuthu was in use. But with the occupation of the Pandya country by the Cholas after conquest in the closing years of the tenth century CE the Tamil script came to be used there also. Thereafter, it has been in use throughout Tamil Nadu.
We have inscriptions in Tamil script in some parts of Karnataka State and Nellore District in the Andhra State. Occasionally , we find Tamil inscriptions even at Visakhapattinam of the Andhra State and at Puri in the Orissa State; it is also noticed overseas in countries like China, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and Thailand.

Tamil Alphabets in Various Times
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic1.gif

Tamil inscription in Sri Lankan Buddhist Vihara mention its name as
'sri jagatoppa kandan perumpalli'
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/sri.gif

Bilingual (Tamil & Chinese) inscription in China dated Saka era 1203 (1281 CE) Mentions the erection of deity Thirukkaniccuramudaiyar by one Sambandapperumal for the well being of Chinese emperor Cekacaikan Parman
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/china1.gif http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/china2.gif

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 10:51 AM

If we look into the forms of the earliest available Tamil script; it is possible to conclude that they also developed similarly in that part of country itself in consonance with the evolution of the Grantha. The evolution of the Tamil script may be classified roughly into three stages: the archaic, the medieval and the latter varieties.

Archaic Tamil Inscriptions

Pallava / Mutharaiyar
Inscription in verse on a pillar, Tamil Script, Mutharaiyar chiefs, 8th Century, Sendalai, Thanjavur Dist.

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic2.gif

Pandya
Rock cut cave temple inscription in Tamil Script, 9th Century, Maranjadaiyan, Tirukkokarnam, Pudukkottai District
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic3.gif

Chola
Inscription In Tamil Script, Parantaka Chola 929CE, Gangaikondacholapuram, Perambalur District
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic4.gif

Inscription on Temple Base In Tamil Script, Early Chola 10th Century CE, Kodumbalur, Pudukkottai District
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic5.gif

Village Assembly Election (Kudavolai) Inscription In Tamil Script, Parantakachola 921 CE, Uttaramerur, Kanchipuram District
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic6.gif

Medieval Tamil Inscriptions

Chola
Inscription In Tamil Script, Vikkirama Chola, 1121CE, Sendalai, Thanjavur District
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic7.gif

Pandya
Inscription In Tamil Script, Pandya, 13th Century, Pillamangalam, Sivaganga District
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic8.gif

Later Tamil Inscriptions

16th Century Inscription in Later Tamil script, Murugamangalam, Tiruvannamalai District
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic9.gif

Labels of Nayak Paintings in Later Tamil script - Alakarkoil, Madurai District, 17th Century
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic10.gif

19th century Tamil Script on Palm leaves
http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi-ins/tamil/pic11.gif

Marathaman

August 4th, 2010, 12:35 PM

For that matter, all Gods and Goddess' statues are duly imaginary. :)

Except that Rajaraja was a real person :|

Anniyan

August 4th, 2010, 12:52 PM

For that matter, all Gods and Goddess' statues are duly imaginary. :)

ASI havent allowed any God statues to be installed inside the premises.

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 12:57 PM

^^ It has dozens already in place and not required something new :)

Mad 4 Madras

August 4th, 2010, 01:00 PM

Except that Rajaraja was a real person :|
Who knows, may be Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Kali etc..etc..were all real persons some yugas back like Jesus, Buddha...:dunno:

Marathaman

August 4th, 2010, 01:08 PM

^Sure, why not.

Arul Murugan

August 4th, 2010, 03:24 PM

Oldest literature work of Tamil is claimed to be Tholkappiyam dating to 300B.C

If Tholkappiyam was written in 300 B.C did they use these Tamil brahmi scripts?

Tamil Brahmi Script

http://www.tnarch.gov.in/images/epi/epi-pic3.gif

Development of the Tamil Brahmi Script into
Vattezhuthu and Tamil Script

Arul Murugan

August 4th, 2010, 03:36 PM

ASI was right in denying the permission to install the statue of imaginary figure of Rajaraja Chola and the politicians name in the pedestral.

This is also an imaginary figure of rasa rasan?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Rajaraja_mural.jpg/280px-Rajaraja_mural.jpg

ashwa

August 4th, 2010, 03:49 PM

rajaraja and rasa rasan are the same?

Anniyan

August 4th, 2010, 04:59 PM

This is also an imaginary figure of rasa rasan?

No, this is probably rajarajan's figure.

But this mural wasnt found when MK tried to install rajarajan's statue inside the temple premises.

Arasu

August 4th, 2010, 07:13 PM

rajaraja and rasa rasan are the same?

They are the same. In proper Tamil some letters that are found in Sanskrit are not there. To represent these sounds, new letters were added. But, in many places especially in villages more so in the southern/western districts of TN, they don't pronounce 'ja' but replace it with 'sa'.

So they are the same or synonymous.

Arasu

August 4th, 2010, 07:18 PM

Oldest literature work of Tamil is claimed to be Tholkappiyam dating to 300B.C

If Tholkappiyam was written in 300 B.C did they use these Tamil brahmi scripts?

There was a script at the time. Tholkappiam has a chapter on Ezhuthu (Letters). Linguists are able to use the information and make some conclusions on the dating of Tholkappiam from those chapters. Iravadham has made references to it in his work on Early Indian Epigraphy.

I am not well versed with the particulars.

Mad 4 Madras

August 5th, 2010, 09:03 AM

It can't be said that Tolkappiyam is the oldest Tamil literature. It is the oldest literature available till date. Many would have been lost. We cannot come to conclusion that Tolkappiyam used Tamil Brahmi scripts and it is the oldest bcoz many stone inscriptions has been found using Tamil Brahmi Scripts which predates Tolkappiyam date (300CE). Tolkappiyam, what has been found was on palm leaves as manuscripts which are later inventions to store and save data.

In my opinion, a language's first literary book need not necessarily be a grammar book. I seriously doubt that Tolkappiyam belonged to first sangam literature, even so, what was before sangam literature? What is the reason to create such sangams?

ChennaiIndian

August 6th, 2010, 04:09 PM

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article555682.ece

Coins and currencies of various countries belonging to different periods of time are on display at the All-India level eleventh Coins Expo 2010, an exhibition, organised by the Chola Mandala Numismatics Society at Sangeetha Mahal in Thanjavur.

The exhibition was inaugurated by M.S.Shanmugham, District Collector. M.Durairasu, Founder and President of the society aid the society has been organising such exhibitions every year with the aim of creating awareness among students and people about our ancient culture, history, archaeology, science and technology which is reflected in such coins and currencies.

“Thanjavur Big Temple has completed 1000 years of its construction and the temple's millennium is celebrated this year by the Government. The image of the temple was found in a one thousand rupees note released by our Union Government in 1954 . The Brigadeeswara temple was built by King Raja Raja-I (985-1012 A.D.). UNESCO has declared the temple as a world heritage monument”, Mr. Durairasu said.

...

ChennaiIndian

August 6th, 2010, 04:10 PM

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article555664.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00157/hh_157693f.jpg

The domed tombstone stands stately against a melancholic evening sky. It is called the Queen's cemetery or Rani Kallarai. Only that the buried were no queens. They were three young women, outlanders, who lived, loved and died as wives of Governors in an alien land.

The cemetery, tucked away with a nondescript façade, behind the railway line here, adjoining the CSI graveyard speaks of a history- a history of imprints left behind by the Dutch East India CompanyThe tomb of the Queen is a definitive structure with the coat-of-arms (heraldry) of the buried etched on the three sides of the dome.

Underneath, resides a mother, with her arms around her still-born son, on whose delivery she lost her life. Buried alongside, are three other sons of hers, who had died ahead of their mother. Anthonio van Steelant- Nilo, wife of Joannes Van Steelant, the Governor of Dutch possessions on the Coromandel coast, died in 1709 at the age of 32.

In the insides of the Tomb, there is an engraved epitaph for the dead lady on the ceiling. The crevices nurturing plants at the four corners of the dome adds a certain poignance to the one that already defines the tombstone.

The mausoleum also hosts an obelisk (stone pillar tapering imposingly towards the sky) for Adriana Appels, wife of Jacob Mossel, Governor of Nagapattinam. Adriana's is majesterial in its own right facing Anthonio's tomb.

According to a short paper by a Dutch researcher which is available with the St.Peter's Church, “all the bells of Nagapattinam tolled throughout the day and the canons of the Dutch ship…fired a shot every fifteen minutes,” and that “the sky above Nagapattinam must have been heavy with the scent of gunpowder,” to mark Adriana's funeral.

...

ChennaiIndian

August 6th, 2010, 04:12 PM

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article551961.ece

Chief Minister M.Karunanidhi is of the view that there could be no better occasion to remember the King than the 1000th year of the Brihadeeswarar Temple

The State government is drawing up plans to celebrate in a grand manner the contribution of Chola King Raja Raja I to the renaissance of art and culture besides governance.

Chief Minister M.Karunanidhi is of the view that the celebration should not be delayed any more and there could be no better occasion to remember the King than the 1000th year of the Brihadeeswarar Temple.

The government wanted to organise the celebrations much earlier, but preparations for the World Classical Tamil Conference gave little room for any other elaborate event between January and June this year.

Using Raja Raja Chola as the theme, the Chief Minister wants to use the opportunity to inculcate in the younger generation the great achievements of Tamil leaders.

Though the celebration is still at a planning stage, indications are that the event will be held in Thanjvur and will have an elaborate paraphernalia of events that highlight the great works under the leadership of Raja Raja.

Of particular relevance will be the effort to place history in a context and make people realise the importance and the odds against which the great structures were built.

Noted archaeologist R. Nagasamy said “clarity of mind and drive for excellence in all the fields” were the hallmark of Raja Raja.

“He was a hero who applied his mind to every aspect of governance. He conducted land survey and introduced intelligent tax system and increased the area of cultivation, realising that it was vital to the State economy,” Dr Nagasamy, former director of Department of Archaeology said.

While Raja Raja Chola encouraged higher studies in every field by organising scholarly settlements in the form of Brahmin colonies, side by side he set up commercial establishments.

...

BlackPearl

August 7th, 2010, 03:54 PM

Exploration planned under the sea off Poompuhar on Tamil Nadu's coast could provide evidence of the thriving trade centre mentioned in the works of Ptolemy and Pliny

According to the Tamil epic Manimekalai, Poompuhar on Tamil Nadu's east coast was 'swallowed' by the sea following the curse of a goddess. The myth says that a Chola king, mourning his son's death, forgot to celebrate the annual spring festival, Indra Vizha and incurred the deity's wrath. Historians today believe that the disaster that hit the port town was a tsunami. Centuries later, the 2004 tsunami that ravaged modern-day Poompuhar has posed a big challenge to archaeologists. The ancient town lies buried in the sea and divers of the Goa-based National Institute of Oceanography will have to scrape through layers of sediment, sea barnacles, flora and fauna to piece together the story of the busy port town that had trade links with the east and the west.

"There is enough proof that the rich merchants of Manigrama, a suburban village of ancient Poompuhar, travelled by boats accompanied by 'sena muka' (soldiers to defend vessels against pirates) to Takua Pa (now in south Thailand) to trade in mani (gems). A Tamil inscription on a stone to this effect is still preserved in modern-day Takua Pa," says former state archaeology director, R Nagaswamy.

Notable Greeks such as Ptolemy and Pliny describe this Chola town as an important port. It flourished between the 3rd century BC and the 5th century AD and did business with both the Roman Empire and China, until it was washed away by tidal waves. Onshore and offshore excavations since the 1960s have given archaeologists an exciting glimpse of this once rich town. Excavations have revealed ring wells, brick structures, semi-precious stones and shards of amphorae. State archaeology minister Thangam Thennarasu says the government is keen on an elaborate exploration that can help unearth and preserve the remnants of an ancient Tamil culture. The government is in talks with the NIO for an expedition that would also include other ancient ports off the TN coast, now submerged under the sea.

Besides Poompuhar, the excavation team will also explore Alagankulam, near Rameswaram, Periyapattinam, where large quantities of porcelain were found, Korkai near Thoothukudi, mentioned in Sangam literature as a pearl-rich port and Nagapattinam, another port that flourished during the medieval period.

Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Port-town-buried-under-the-sea/articleshow/6270629.cms

Mad 4 Madras

August 18th, 2010, 11:27 AM

Source (http://hindu.com/2006/05/01/stories/2006050101992000.htm)
Links between Harappa and Neolithic Tamil Nadu

http://hindu.com/2006/05/01/images/2006050101992001.jpg

RARE FIND: The Neolithic polished stone celt (hand-held axe) with the Indus valley script found at Sembian-Kandiyur village, near Mayiladuthurai in Tamil Nadu. — Photo: Vino John

CHENNAI: The discovery of a Neolithic stone celt, a hand-held axe, with the Indus script on it at Sembian-Kandiyur in Tamil Nadu is, according to Iravatham Mahadevan, "a major discovery because for the first time a text in the Indus script has been found in the State on a datable artefact, which is a polished neolithic celt." He added: "This confirms that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu shared the same language family of the Harappan group, which can only be Dravidian. The discovery provides the first evidence that the Neolithic people of the Tamil country spoke a Dravidian language." Mr. Mahadevan, an eminent expert on the subject, estimated the date of the artefact with the Indus script between 2000 B.C. and 1500 B.C.
It was in February 2006, when V. Shanmuganathan, a school teacher living in Sembian-Kandiyur, near Mayiladuthurai in Nagapattinam district, dug a pit in the backyard of his house to plant banana and coconut saplings, that he encountered two stone celts. The teacher, who is interested in archaeology, rang up his friend G. Muthusamy, Curator of the Danish Fort Museum at Tranquebar, which belongs to the Tamil Nadu Department of Archaeology. Mr. Muthusamy, who also belongs to the same village, took charge of the two celts from his friend and handed them over to T.S. Sridhar, Special Commissioner, State Department of Archaeology.
When Mr. Sridhar examined one of the two stones, he found some engravings on it. So he asked the epigraphists of his Department to study the particular celt. To their absolute delight, they found fours signs on it - and all four of them corresponded with the characters in the Indus script. When the celt with the Indus script was shown to Mr. Mahadevan, he confirmed that they were in the Indus script. The celt with the script measures 6.5 cm by 2.5 cm by 3.6 cm by 4 cm. It weighs 125 grams. The other celt has no engravings on it.
Mr. Mahadevan, one of the world's foremost scholars on the Indus and the Tamil-Brahmi scripts, is the author of the seminal work, The Indus Script: Texts, Concordance and Tables. It was published by the Archaeological Survey of India, New Delhi in 1977.
First Indus sign

The first Indus sign on the celt showed a skeletal body with ribs, seated on his haunches, body bent, lower limbs folded and knees drawn up. The second sign shows a jar with a handle. The first sign stood for "muruku" and the second for "an." Together, they read as "Murukan." They formed a very frequent combination on the Indus seals and sealings, especially from Harappa. The first "muruku" sign corresponded with the sign number 48, the second with the number 342, the third, which looks like a trident, corresponded with the sign number 367, and the fourth with 301.
These numbers are found in the sign list published by Mr. Mahadevan.
He said: "`Muruku' and 'an' are shown hundreds of times in the Indus script found at Harappa. This is the importance of the find at Sembiyan-Kandiyur. Not only do the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Harappans share the same script but the same language." In Tamil Nadu, the muruku symbol was first identified from a pottery graffiti at Sanur, near Tindivanam. B.B. Lal, former Director-General of ASI, correctly identified this symbol with sign 47 of the Indus script. In recent years, the muruku symbol turned up among the pottery graffiti found at Mangudi, near Tirunelveli in Tamil Nadu, and at Muciri, Kerala. But this was the first time that a complete, classical Indus script had been found on a polished Neolithic stone celt, Mr. Mahadevan pointed out. He emphasised that the importance of the discovery was independent of the tentative decipherment of the two signs proposed by him.

Mad 4 Madras

August 18th, 2010, 11:29 AM

Another Source (http://hindu.com/2006/05/01/stories/2006050112670100.htm)

Mad 4 Madras

August 18th, 2010, 11:43 AM

Tidal Waves & Under-Sea Land Slides that destroyed regions of ancient Tamil Nadu & the first two Tamil Sangams

We all have witnessed during our life time the large destructive Tidal Waves which are known today as the Tsunami (a Japanese Language word meaning "Harbour Waves") hitting the shores of Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka, in addition to many other South and South-East Asian Countries on the 26th December 2004.

(1) Causes of "Tidal Waves"(Tsunami)

The "Tidal Waves" (Tsunami) are a series of destructive sea waves that moves across the ocean, generated by large and violent Earthquakes (i.e. Vibrations or Tremors) occuring beneath the sea.

These Earthquakes are due to sudden dislocation of the segments of the earth's crust, resulting from the under sea volcanic eruptions (i.e.molten rocks eruptions).

(2) Causes of "Under-Sea Land Slides"(Submarine Avalanches)

The "Under-Sea Landslides" (Submarine Avalanche) are falling or sliding of large masses of the mixture of - soil, rock, and other earth materials from outside the surface of the sea, rapidly into the sea under the force of gravity.

The seabeds wherever the offshore slopes dip steeply enough pose the threat of "Under-Sea Landslides", and sometimes may not even require Earthquakes to touch them off.

They are capable of generating deadly Tsunamis as the surface of the ocean first recedes and then surges forward to crash against the shores.

(3) References to "Tidal Waves" & "Under-Sea Land Slides" in early Tamil Literary Works

From the earliest Tamil literary works belonging to the first and second century Tamil Nadu, namely Iraiyanaar Ahapporul, Kaliththohai, Silappathikaaram, and Manimehalai, we come to know that in the ancient times too there had been massive Tidal Waves which have hit the shores of the Paandiya (Pandiya) country and the Chola country of the then Tamil Nadu of South India, causing very big damages and heavy losses.

At times there have been very ferrocious Tidal Waves that have hit Tamil Nadu, and large areas of the seaside lands and the lands much interior have submerged into the ocean, possibly due to big "Under-Sea Land Slides".

(4) The first known "Under-Sea Land Slides" that affected Tamil Nadu and the First Tamil Sangam

The Paandiya Country of the then Tamil Nadu of South India, had it's capital city in the inland known as the "Adakak Kudumi Maadak Koodal" which means: the Koodal (city) with buildings having golden spires.

Mathurai was the other name of this city of Koodal. It was at this Koodal (or Mathurai) city of the Paandiya country, the first Tamil Sangam (a Tamil Academy) with many Tamil Poets fostering the growth and development of the Tamil Language & Literature under the patronage of the Paandiya kings, was instituted and conducted for many years.

The city of Koodal or "Thenmathurai" being the location of the first Thamil Sangam is confirmed by the follows:

“……Adahak Kudumi Maadak Koodalin munnarach Sangakk kanmaa palahaiyil ……thinthirat pulamai kundihaik kurumuni, puvipuhal maruthang kaviniya Muranjip pathi Mudi nahanithiyin kilavan……”

“……..Muthal Uli iruthiyk kan Then Mathurai yahaththu thalaich sangaththu Ahathithiyanaarrum, Muranjiyoor Mudinagaraayarum…..”

which means: ".....in front of the Koodal with golden spires on the palahai (seat) of the Sangam office, the world famed poet with sweet compositions the sage Mudinaganithi of the Muranji centre......"

"........in the Uli the Agathiyaaar and Muranjiyoor Mudinagaraayarum.......[/u]"

Silappathikaram - Page 7-8 (U.V.Saminatha Iyer's Edition). Poem found in an old Ola Leaf Manuscript in the house of Sevvur Sittrampalak Kavirayer included in this edition.

It was during the first Tamil Sangam period the ferrocious Tidal Waves of the Sea of a very great magnitude, have hit and destroyed the coastel and far inland areas of the Paandiya country, most possibly due to a very massive Under-Sea Land Slide which sank a very large land mass with many countries, range of mountains, rivers, and forests far south of the present Kumari region (in the south) which all went under sea.

This fact is testified by “Adiyaarkku Nallaar” in his commentry to the Tamil Epic the Silappathikaram, which provides further informations on same as follows:

"......Ak kaalaththu ‘avar naattuth’ Thenpaali mukaththitkku vada ellaiyahiya Pahtruli ennum aartritkum Kumari ennum aartritkum idaiye elunoortru kaavatha vaarum ivattrin neer malivaanena malintha Earl Thenga naadum, Earl Mathurai naadum, Earl Munpaalai Naadum, Earl Pinpaalai Nadum, Earl Kuntra Naadum, Earl Kuna Kaarai Naadum, Earl Kurumpanai Naadum ennum naatpaththu onpathu naadum, Kumari Kollam muthaliya panmalai naadum, kaadum, nathiyum, pathiyum, thadaneer Kumari Vadaperum Kottin ‘karum kadal kondolithalat’ Kumariyahiya Pauvam entru unarha....."

which means: "....In those days between the Thenpaalimukam (southern “seawater” front) of his (Pandiyan's) country, and the northern boundry being the Pahtruli river and the Kumari river, there had been 700 hundred Kaavatham distance and in between which there were forty nine countries, (named) the Earl(seven) ThengaNadu, Earl(seven) Mathurai Nadu, Earl(seven) Munpaalai Naadu, Earl(seven) Kuntra Nadu, Earl(seven) Kunakaarai Nadu, Earl(seven) Kurumpanai Nadu, the country known as Kumarik Kollam of many mountains, the forests, rivers, cities, upto (but not) the northern big mountain range of Kumarik Kodu - were swallowed by the sea......"

Silappathikaram - Puhar Kandam, Venit Kaathai, Page 228
(U.V.Saminatha Iyer's Edition)

From the above reference it is very clear that there had been a large land mass of about 700 Kavatham distance (1750 miles) covering forty nine countries and a region called Kumari Kollam in between the northen mountain range of this landmass known as Kumarik Kodu and its far southern “seawater” front (Thenpaalimugam), having many mountains, forests, rivers and cities.

From same it appears the region just south of Kumarik Kodu was a region called the Kumarik Kollam. In the south of this region have been the Pahruli river, and the Kumari River was close beyond the Pahruli river in it’s south.

In the above reference it is confirmed that these two rivers were the northern boundries of the lost large land mass. It also appears the next two regions beyond Kumarik Kollam would have been the Earl Thenganaadu & Earl Mathurai Nadu.

It appears the Kumarikkodu mountain range and the Pahtruli river escaped this sea disaster while the Kumari river with the major part of Kumari Kollam and the entire land mass south with forty nine countries went under sea. Among these countries which went under sea was the “Earl Mathurai Nadu” which is undoubtedly the "Then Mathurai" (Southern Mathurai) the capital city of the early Pandiya kings which comprised the first Thamil Sangam of the Pandiya country.

This first known Sea destruction cannot be simply estimated as a Tsunami that we have witnessed during our life time. But it appears to be a vast and massive "Under Sea Land Slide - a Submarine Avalanche covering approximately 1750 miles in the southernly direction beyond the the Kumarik Kodu and Pahtruli river gradually sliding into the sea. This is probably the vast landmass the modern Geological Scientists refer to as “Lost Lemuria” or “Kumari Kandam” which was submerged in the sea.

It also appears the great land mass beyond present Kanyakumari district was probably embracing the present Sri Lanka too within, and with this massive "Under-Sea Land Slide" in the south of India it was seperated from the remaining Indian Mainland.

This could be a definite possibility as “Sivatharumoththaram” says at the foot of the Mahendra mountain was the Illankai thesam and that give us a clue that the Mahendra Mountain range extended beyond the present Kanyakumari region along the west of the present Sri Lanka and the Illangai Thesam was on the east of the Mahendra Mountain range at its foot hills which submerged in to the sea leaving back Sri Lanka.

This destruction would have taken place long before the period of the epic story Ramayana. This is confirmed by the reference in the Valmiki Ramayana that the Mahendra mountain range of the then Kumarik Kodu remained almost fully submerged into the sea at the time of Ramayana epic, and only a peak of this range remained on the outside surface during the time of this epic story, and continues to remain even today known as the Mahendragiri (or Mahendra Malai) in the present Kanyakumari district of Tamil Nadu.

This is confirmed by the Valmiki Ramayana as follows.

".......agastyena antare tatra saagare viniveshitaH |
citra saanu nagaH shriimaan mahendraH parvatottamaH || 4-41-20
jaata ruupamayaH shriimaan avagaaDho mahaarNavam |
naanaa vidhaiH nagaiH phullaiH lataabhiH ca upashobhitam || 4-41-21

which means: "There, with its one end verily penned in by Sage Agastya inside the ocean, the fortunate Mt. Mahendra is there, with its marvellous pinnacles and the best among the mountains.." [4-41-20] "That august Mt. Mahendra is completely golden penetrating into ocean and it is glorified with numerous kinds of flowered trees and climbers also... [4-41-21]

Valmihi Ramayana - Kishkindha Kanda - Chapter [Sarga] 41

The sinking of the Mahendra Mountain range into sea, and only one peak remaining is further confirmed by Tamil Saiva Saint Thirumaaligai Thevar in his Thiruvisaippa (of the 9th Thirumurai) as,

".....Aluntha Mahendraththu....."

[which means: the Mahendra Mountain (portion) that never sunk]

The survived peak of the Mahendra mountain range could be seen even today, south of Thaamiraparani river in the present Kanyakumari district, almost midway between the Thirukkurungudi and Bhutapandi having a height of 1,654 Metres (5,425 Ft), and presently called as the Mahendragiri. (Giri is mountain - in Sanskrit, and Malai in Tamil)

Further from the commentery of “Adiyaarkku Nallaar” in Silappathikarem referred above, it is clear the northern most region of this large land mass – the Kumarikkodu range of mountains with Kummarik Kollam and the Pahruli river escaped the wrath of the sea, and from the sequential order of the countries listed above immediately after them, it is clear the Pandiyanadu of that period encompassed the Earl Thenga Nadu and the Earl Mathurai Nadu, from where possibly people would have fled more towards the north to the regions of Kumarik Kollam and the Pahruli river.

Hence we can safely infer that with the gradual submerging of Earl Thenga Nadu and Earl Mathurai Nadu, and with the Pahruli river and Kumarikkkodu escaping the wrath of the sea, the Paandiyan king and the first Tamil Sangam Pulavars and other subjects managed to escape further north to Pahruli river and the Kumarikkodu region, which could have been a definite possibility. The Paandiyan king who was ruling during the end of the first Thamil Sangam was the Kadungkoan which is confirmed by the follows :

“….Thalaich Sangamirunthaar……avarkalaich sangamiree iyinaar Kaichchina Valuthi muthalaha Kadungkoan eeraaha enpaththonpathinmar enba……”

Iraiyanaar Ahapporul - Nakkeeeranaar Urai
Published by Bhavanantham Pillai - Mullai Nilayam Publication

From the same source another reference confirms the first Pandiyan king of second Thamil Sangam was Vendherch (Venther) Cheliyan. Hence it is clear the last Paandiyan king of the first Thamil Sangam the Kadungkoan did not survive the tidal waves with undersea landslides.

(5) The second known "Under-Sea Land Slides" that affected Tamil Nadu and the Second Tamil Sangam

With this loss of the large territories of the Pandiya country, the then king Nediyon moved more towards the north and captured many new regions and made them the new Pandiyan regions, and distributed the captured lands to his subjects who met the loss - but possibly escaped this great tragedy, made him get the title "Nilam Tharu Thiruvit Pandiyan" [which mean: "the Pandiyan who made the kind gesture of lands"]

The Paandiyan king now built his new capital at Kapaadapuram (Kavadam). From the reference in the Valmiki Ramayana it is very clear that the Kapaadapuram the new captial city of the Pandiyas was closer to the sea. This is confirmed by the follows:

"......yuktam Kavaatam Paandyaanaam gataa draksyatha Vaanaraah tatah samudram......"

(which means: "...... having reached Kavaatam of Pandiya ongoing you shall see Vaanarah (Oh! Anuman) then ocean...."]

Valmihi Ramayana - Kishkindha Kanda - Chapter (Sarga) 41

This is further confirmed by the follows.

".......maasil vaan munneer parantha thonnilam aalum kilamaiyodu punarnththa enko vaaliyar im malarthalai ulake......"

[which means: (let) our king (long) live in this wide world, who is ruling with the right to rule the speckless sky - wide seafront ancient land]

Mullaikkali in Kalithithohai refers to a Pandiyan.

Hence the 'wide seafront ancient land' could possibly refer to Kapaadapuram]

Kaliththohai - Mullaikkali - 3rd poem

From the above it is clear the second Pandiyan capital Kapaadapuram was closer to the sea some what east of the present Mathurai. The Pandiyan king with a view of preventing further sea disasters had a festival celeberated for the Sea God and hence he was known as "Munneer Vilavu Nediyon" (Munner Vilavu = Sea (God) celeberation) and also as "Vadivalamba nintra Pandiyan".

In this new city of Kapaadapuram the Paandiyan king establised the second Thamil Sangam which is confirmed by the follows.

"......Irandaam Uliyathakiya Kapaadapuraththin Idai Sangam......."

[which means: "the middle (second) Sangam of the Kapaadapuram of second Uli" (Uli – period after great disaster)]

Silappathikaram - Uraipayiram, Adiyaarkku Nallaar Urai Kaathai, Page 6-7 (U.V.Saminatha Iyer's Edition)

".......Idaich Sangam vinnakam paravu methahu keerththik Kannakan parapit Kapaadapuram enba....."

[which means: "the middle (second) Sangam at Kapaadapuram the land of Kannakan (the Pandiyan) of great fame spreading to the heaven"]

Silappathikaram - Page 7, Poem found in an old Ola Manuscript in the house of Sevvur Sittampalak Kavirayer, (U.V.Saminatha Iyer's Edition)

It was in this second Thamil Sangam at Kapaadapuram (during the Ramayana Epic period) the poet Agaththiyar wrote the treatise on Tamil Grammer known as “Agaththiyar Illakkanam” and some time later the poet Tholkaappianar too wrote a treatise on Tamil Grammer named the “Tholkaappiam” in the presence of the Pandiyan Nediyon also known as Nilam Tharu Thiruvit Pandiyan. This is confirmed from the follows:

"......mahathuvamudaiya Agaththiya Illakkanam vaduvaru kaatchi naduvat sangath Agaththiyar Tholkaappiyath Thamil Munivar.......an naal Illakkanam Agaththiyam athanodu pinnaat seitha pirangu Tholkaapiam......"

(which means: "the Naduvar Sangam where the Agaththiya Illakanam of esteem was (staged), to weed off the faults (there the) Agaththiyar and Thokaapiya Thamil sage"

Silappathikaram - Poem found in an old Ola Manuscript in the house of Sevvur Sittampalak Kavirayer, Page 7
(U.V.Saminatha Iyer's Edition)

"........irrandaam Uliyathakiya Kappaadapuraththin idaich Sangaththu Tholkaappiam pulappaduththiya Maakeerthiyaakiya Nilam tharu thiruvit Pandiyan avaikkalaththu Agathiyanaarum, Tholkaappianaarum......???"

[which means: "the middle (second) Sangam of the Kapaadapuram of second Uli where the Nilam tharu thiruvit Pandiyan who brought forth the Tamil Grammer Work the Tholkaappiam, in his auditorium where the Agathiyanaar and Tholkaappianaar were present"

Silappathikaram - Uraipayiram, Adiyaarkku Nallaar Urai Kaathai, Page 7-8

Also include Panambaranar's Paayiram from Tholkaappiam.

“….vada vengadam thenkumari aayidai thamil kurum nalulakaththu….”

“…..Nilam thiruvit Pandiyon avaiyaththu…….”
“….malku neer varaippin iyinthiram niraintha
Tholkaappian enath than peyar thotrip
Palpuhal niruththa padimaiyone….”

This further confirms that Tholkappiam was staged during the time of "Nilan tharu thiruvit Pandiyan"

include Pahruli manalinum palave.
The above was sung by Panambaranar who lived during the time of Netimaiyar. ?????????

Many years after the period of the Ramayana Epic the destructive waves of the sea, again destroyed the Pandiyan capital, on this occasion the Kapaadapuram with the second Thamil Sangam.

This too would have been the destructive fierce Tidal Waves resulting again from a big Under-Sea Land Slides, with the destruction of the Paandiya country with the Paandiyan capital Kapaadapuram with the river Pahruli and some adjoing lands along the coastel regions and the Kumari Range of Mountains (Kumarkikodu) went under sea.

This fact is testified in the great Tamil epic the Silappathikaram as follows:

".........Pahtruli arttrudan pan Malai adukkaththuk Kumarik Kodum kodung kadal kolla
vada thisaik Gangaiyum Imayamum kondu then thisai aanda Thennavan vaali......."

(which means: "....long live the Pandiyan [who, when] the Pahtruli river and the many ranges of mountains of the Kumarik Kodu was swallowed up by the fierce sea, captured the the Ganges [river] and the Himalayas of the north and ruled the south ")

Silappathikaram - Madurai Kandam, Kaadu Kaan Kaathai, Line 19-22, Page 289
(U.V.Saminatha Iyer's Edition)

This is further confirmed by another Sangam period Tamil Literary work Kaliththohai which states as follows.

".....Mali thirai oornthu than mann kadal vowvalin melivintri metsentru mewaar naadu idampadap puliyodu vil neekkip puhal priththa kilar kendai valiyinaal vanakkiya vaadaar seer thenavan....."

(which means: when the sea with many waves rolled and swallowed his lands without depression went further captured the countries of those not subdued to him, removing the tiger and bow flags establised the fame of the kendai (fish) made to worship by his valour the Thennavan of unfading fame)

Kaliththohai - Mullaikkali - 4th poem

Panambaranar ref re Sea tide

(6) The building of the Third capital city and establishment of the third Tamil Sangam by Pandiyan king

It was probably after that the Paandiyans realised the gravity of the natural disasters and built the new capital much interior in the central region of lower South India far away from the sea also known as Mathurai, apparently the present Mathurai where they held the third Thamil Sangam.

As this was the new city of the Paandiyas where the third Thamil Sangam was established bearing the same name as the city where the first Thamil Sangam functioned earlier in the lands in the south which have now submerged into the sea, the Mathurai of the third Thamil Sangam was referred to as the Vada Mathurai (Northern Mathurai) during that period.

This is confirmed by the following:

".....Arung Kadaich Sangam irunthor........puviyit Sangam puhal Vada Mathurai......"

(which means: who were in the unique last (third) Sangam......in this earth the Sangam famed northern Mathurai)

Silappathikaram - Poem found in an old Ola Manuscript in the house of Sevvur Sittampalak Kavirayer, Page 8
(U.V.Saminatha Iyer's Edition)

During the period the Pandiyas establised the third Tamil Sangam at the new Mathurai in the central region of southern India, the Cholas had their capital at Kaviripoompattinam also known as Poompuhar.

(7) The Tidal Waves that affected the Chola capital Kaviripoompattinam of Tamil Nadu

The God Indra was known in Tamil Nadu as the god of ocean during the Ramayana days and the legend holds that God Indra visited on auspiciou days the Kumari region where the Mount Mahendra is situated which is confirmed by the following statement in the Ramayana.

"......tam upaiti sahasraaksah sadaa parvasu parvasu |

dviipah tasya apare paare shata yojana visritah ||...... " 4-41-23

(which means: "The Thousand-eyed Indra always reaches that Mt. Mahendra on every auspicious day... and the other shore is an island with a breadth of hundred yojana-s")

Valmihi Ramayana - Kishkindha Kanda - Chapter [Sarga] 41

The Cholas probably realising the gravity of the sea tides from the experiences of the Paandiya Naadu yearly had a great festival for fourteen days worshiping the ocean god Indra as Indra Vilaa at the ocean front where the Kaveri river joined the sea and where they had built their capital city the Kaviripoompatinam.

The people of Kavirimpoompattinam believed that if the Indra Villa festival is defaulted that they had to meet the wrath of Bootham hence the festival should be conducted.

".......viduththa bootham vilaakkon marappin madiththa sevvaai val eyiri ilanga Idikuran mulakkaththu thedumbai seithidum thoduththa paasaththu tholpathinarakarai pudaiththunnum porunthathaayidum......."

Manimehalai - Villavarai Kaathai , Lines 20-26 Page 13 &14 (U.V.Saminatha Iyer Edition)

From the Silappathikarem we note after the tragedy and death of the heroine Kannahi (Paththini) the Chola kings defaulted in conducting the annual seafront festival to God Indira. This resulted in the Kaviripoompattinam also known as Poompuhar having to face the fierce Tidal Waves of the sea which destroyed this seaport city.

"......Kavirip Pattinam kadal kolu entru thavaththu urai kettu....."

Manimekalai - Kachchimaanahar pukka Kaathai - 28 Line 135-136

".......manangkaval keduththathu Manahar kadal kolla Aravanaadikalum Thayarum aangu vittu irrava ipPathi puhunthathu......."

Manimekalai - Kachchimaanahar pukka Kaathai - 28 Line 80-83

"......Vaanavan vilakkoan maanagar olinthathu Mamimekalatheivam mattrathu poraal anninagar thannai alai kadal kolha ena vittanal saabam patta ithuvat kadavun Managar Kadal kolla peyarntha vadivet thadakkai vaanavan pola virithirai vanthu viyannager vilunga oru thani poyinan ulaka mannavan......"

Manimehalai - Aapuththiranodu Manipallvam adaintha kaathai - 25 page 289 Line 197-204

"Thivaka Santhi Seyya naalun Kaavan Ma nagar Kadal vayiru pukoom Manimekali than vaaimoli yaalathu thaniyaa Indra saabam undaakalin aangu pathiyalithalum eengu pathi keduthalum ventharai yatoi meyena kondik kaasin managar kadal vayiru puhaamal vaasavan vilaa kon maravel"

Manimehalai - Aapuththiranodu Manipallvam adaintha kaathai - 25 page 289 Line 63-69

"Vinnavar Thalaivanai vananki munintru mannaha thentran vaanpathi thannul
meloar vilaiya vilakkol eduththa naal earl naalilum nankinithuraikkena amarar thalaivan aangathu nernthathu"

Manimehalai - Vilaavarai kaathai - 12 page 289 Line 5-9

[I]source (http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=14062&sid=d73996991526db77f2d0db79834f6ba5)

Mad 4 Madras

August 18th, 2010, 12:37 PM

Source (http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/21/stories/2007112158412400.htm)

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/21/images/2007112158412401.jpg

CHENNAI: A broken storage jar with inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi script has been excavated at Quseir-al-Qadim, an ancient port with a Roman settlement on the Red Sea coast of Egypt. This Tamil Brahmi script has been dated to first century B.C. One expert described this as an “exciting discovery.”
The same inscription is incised twice on the opposite sides of the jar. The inscription reads paanai oRi, that is, pot (suspended) in a rope net.
An archaeological team belonging to the University of Southampton in the U.K., comprising Prof. D. Peacock and Dr. L. Blue, who recently re-opened excavations at Quseir-al-Qadim in Egypt, discovered a fragmentary pottery vessel with inscriptions.
Dr. Roberta Tomber, a pottery specialist at the British Museum, London, identified the fragmentary vessel as a storage jar made in India.
Iravatham Mahadevan, a specialist in Tamil epigraphy, has confirmed that the inscription on the jar is in Tamil written in the Tamil Brahmi script of about first century B.C.
In deciphering the inscription, he has had the benefit of expert advice from Prof. Y. Subbarayalu of the French Institute of Pondicherry, Prof. K. Rajan of Central University, Puducherry and Prof. V. Selvakumar, Tamil University, Thanjavur.
According to Mr. Mahadevan, the inscription is quite legible and reads: paanai oRi, that is, ‘pot (suspended in) a rope net.’ The Tamil word uRi, which means rope network to suspend pots has the cognate oRi in Parji, a central Dravidian language, Mr. Mahadevan said. Still nearer, Kannada has oTTi, probably from an earlier oRRi with the same meaning.
The word occurring in the pottery inscription found at Quseir-al-Qadim can also be read as o(R)Ri as Tamil Brahmi inscriptions generally avoid doubling of consonants.
Earlier excavations at this site about 30 years ago yielded two pottery inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi belonging to the first century A.D.
Another Tamil Brahmi pottery inscription of the same period was found in 1995 at Berenike, also a Roman settlement, on the Red Sea coast of Egypt, Mr. Mahadevan said.
These discoveries provided material evidence to corroborate the literary accounts by classical Western authors and the Tamil Sangam poets about the flourishing trade between the Tamil country and Rome (via the Red Sea ports) in the early centuries A.D.

Mad 4 Madras

August 18th, 2010, 12:53 PM

Source (http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/13/stories/2008011355961800.htm)

http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/13/images/2008011355961801.jpg
PROOF POSITIVE: A seal made of stone, found at Mohenjodaro, depicting “jallikattu” (bull-baiting) that was prevalent in the Indus Civilisation. The seal, about 4,000 years old, is on display at the National Museum, New Delhi.

CHENNAI: “Jallikattu,” which is bull-baiting or bull fighting, is an ancient Dravidian tradition that was practised about 4,000 years ago during the Indus Valley civilisation.
A well-preserved seal found at Mohenjodaro in the 1930s attests to this, according to Iravatham Mahadevan, a specialist in Indus and Brahmi scripts.
This seal realistically brings alive a vigorous scene of bull-fighting. It portrays a ferocious bull in action, several men or a single man (according to two different interpretations), thrown in the air by it as they try to control it.
Clearly, the bull is the victor. This seal, made of stone, is on display in the National Museum, New Delhi. It can be dated to 2,000 B.C., Mr. Mahadevan said. Several scholars had commented upon this seal as portraying bull-baiting during the Indus civilisation, he added.
Jallikattu is in the news after the Supreme Court on January 11 declined to give permission to Tamil Nadu Government and some villages for the conduct of this sport. It is traditionally organised in the State during Pongal which falls on January 15 this year.
The seal found at Mohenjodaro, now in Pakistan, shows a single bull with curved horns in the “action” of goring a single man or several men. Its horns are shown in the middle to depict the speed and fluency of its action: the angry bull has suddenly turned its neck sideways to toss the daring men and then its neck has come to its original position.
The seal has used the frieze technique to portray the charged atmosphere. There were two interpretations to what was engraved on the seal, Mr. Mahadevan said. One school is of the opinion that the seal shows several men, who tried to control the bull, thrown up in the air by the animal. A couple of men are shown flying in the air with their legs and hands spread out, a third man is seen jumping to grab the bull, another is somersaulting and yet another has pathetically come to rest on his haunch.
Mr. Mahadevan, however, is of the opinion that the seal shows only one man, who is flung into the air by the bull, his flying, his plunging, his somersaulting and finally sitting on his haunch.
A colour photograph of this seal is found at No. M 312 in The Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions, Volume 1, edited by Asko Parpola and others.
There is no script on the seal. Mr. Mahadevan’s The Indus Script: Texts, Concordance and Tables, is a seminal book on the Indus script. It was published in 1977 by the Archaeological Survey of India. He has also published Corpus of the Tamil-Brahmi Inscriptions (1966).
Bull-baiting figures in the Mahabharatha, which describes Krishna controlling a ferocious bull in the forecourt of Kamsa’s palace.
Outside India, bull-baiting is practised in Spain and Portugal.

Mad 4 Madras

August 18th, 2010, 01:18 PM

New study reported in Science shows it was no mere ‘chain of symbols’

Source (http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/27/stories/2009042756902000.htm)

http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/27/images/2009042756902001.jpg
An Indus seal from Mohenjodaro

Chennai: Computation science, information theory, and machine learning have now come to the vindication of Indus Valley scholars – providing a new type of “quantitative evidence for the existence of linguistic structure in the Indus script, complementing other arguments that have been made explicitly or implicitly in favour of the linguistic hypothesis.” This quantitative evidence comes from the results of a statistical study published online recently in the journal Science ( http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1170391v1).
Drawing from multiple disciplines, using rigorous equations, and through scientific number crunching, a team of scientists — including the well-known Indus script scholar, Iravatham Mahadevan — have demonstrated that the Indus script encodes a language and is not a mere “chain of symbols,” as an article published in 2004 claimed.
The seals and tablets of the Indus civilisation that flourished between 2500 and 1900 B.C carry examples of what has long been understood to be writing in an unknown language. Despite many attempts, the script, known for 130 years, has not been deciphered. The 2004 article, published in the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, challenged the idea that the Indus script encoded language and suggested that it might have been a non-linguistic symbol system like the Vinèa inscriptions of southeastern Europe and the Near Eastern emblem systems.
The new statistical study compared the pattern of symbols found on Indus Valley artifacts to five types of natural linguistic systems (the Sumerian logo-syllabic system, the Old Tamil alpha-syllabic system, the Rig Vedic Sanskrit alpha-syllabic system, English words, and English characters), four types of non-linguistic systems (including human DNA sequences and bacterial protein sequences), and the artificially created computer programming language, Fortran.
The decisive finding was that “the conditional entropy of Indus inscriptions closely matches those of linguistic systems and remains far from non-linguistic systems…The similarity in conditional entropy to Old Tamil, a Dravidian language, is especially interesting in light of the fact that many of the prominent decipherment efforts to date…have converged upon a proto-Dravidian hypothesis for the Indus script.”
The study is the collaborative work of Rajesh P.N. Rao, a University of Washington computer scientist; Nisha Yadav and Mayank N. Vahia of the Department of Astronomy & Astrophysics at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai; Hrishikesh Joglekar, a software engineer from Mumbai; Ronojoy Adhikari, Faculty Fellow at the Institute of Mathematical Sciences, Chennai; and Mr. Mahadevan at the Indus Research Centre, Chennai.
Dr. Adhikari, who specialises in Novel Applications of Statistical Mechanics, has no doubt that that the Indus script was part of a structured language. Opening his Nokia mobile phone, he types the alphabets H and A one after the other. The messaging service automatically fills the next two slots with V and E. “This,” he says, “is a simple algorithm the mobile phone uses to help you complete a word quickly. It works on the principle of correlation. In English, when you use the alphabet Q, the next one that follows is often U. Every language has a probability or flexibility of what token would come after another. A token could be an alphabet or punctuation or any component of the linguistic system. We have used the idea of entropy to measure the non-randomness in a linguistic system including the Indus script.”
When Dr. Adhikari and his collaborators compared the conditional entropy of the Indus script with the conditional entropies of the various linguistic and non-linguistic systems, the results provided “quantitative evidence for the existence of linguistic structure in the Indus script.” “The Indus script,” he explains, “comes close to the entropy value of Old Tamil and lends credence to the debate that the Indus script is connected with the Dravidian language.”
The use of statistical methods is not new to research on the Indus script. The point of departure in the new study is the use of rigorous correlation techniques, a significant methodological advance.
Work on the Indus script continues. The temporal and spatial analysis of the script has been completed and awaits publication. There is scope to compare the Indus script with systems like the Chinese pictograms and the Egyptian hieroglyphics. Dr. Adhikari believes that all these efforts “are taking us closer to understanding the Indus script.”

Arasu

August 18th, 2010, 01:47 PM

^^ Thank you Mad 4 Madras on the write up titled 'Tamil must be older than what it is believed now'. Quite comprehensive and compelling evidence from old texts about existence of older Tamil sangams and destruction of lands due to Tsunami and land slides.

Archaelogists some day will find more evidence of the same.

ChennaiIndian

August 18th, 2010, 10:24 PM

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article579238.ece

Chennai is filled with reminders of an ancient past. But there are a few places that not many people view as tourist attractions…

Theosophical Society

Founded in 1875 in Adyar, the Theosophical Society is a world-wide organisation with the primary objective of Universal Brotherhood without distinction of race, caste, or class, and works towards the oneness of human beings by removing religious antagonism. Founded by Dr. Annie Besant, the Theosophical Society campus in Adyar is a must visit for its serene beauty and spiritual calm.

Vedanthangal

A sanctuary for migratory birds and ornithologists, Vedanthangal has been luring birds for well over 250 years. It is one of the most alluring breeding grounds in India; an unspoilt landscape with birds from across the world migrating there especially from November to January. Sunset and sunrise are the most scenic times with bird-watchers and curious tourists.

...

Mad 4 Madras

August 19th, 2010, 07:26 AM

Arasu

August 19th, 2010, 08:41 AM

^^ The other posting on the find of IV script on a stone axe and its reading by Mahadevan as 'Murugan' is path-breaking. If confirmed it will atleast seal the deal about the language on the seals besides a few other obvious conclusions.

Mad 4 Madras

August 19th, 2010, 08:46 AM

^^ Yes. I would love more scholars to get into this field as each and every decipherment heads to Iravadam and that can be shackled by other language gimmicks wanted-ly.

Mad 4 Madras

August 23rd, 2010, 09:03 AM

TAMIL is the FIRST Language of India as well the FOREMOST in the World.!!!

--Says One French Historian, which multi-faceted Truth and this was endorsed by an American multi-scholar Dr. David Kaylor, who took zealous interest in Tamil language and learnt it to a scholarly level such that he could write an Analytical Treatise on Tamil-Veda THIRUVAAYMOZHI and also extol that...

"TAMIL-VEDA, THIRUVAAYMOZHI as the Most Exemplary Gospel of HUMAN-VALUES.!"

In support of such a stand on the Greatness of Tamil Language, I had a MIRACULOUS EXPERIENCE—

--INCREDIBLE—but TRUE ! – Yes, My Personal Experience, about 50 years back

In a village near Nagpur India, my friends took me to a Sadhu baba Maharashtrian Brahmin, who was said to be a very rare person endowed with a high standard of Spiritual powers ESP (Extra Sensory Powers)--

--especially a THOUGHT-READER who could be possessed by the Holy Spirit of Sri Sant Tukaram and narrate His words in reply to our Questions on Life.

When I came in front of him, he opened his closed eyes and just smiled at me silently— raising one hand up, in a blessing gesture. Then closed his eyes on meditation.

My friends whispered to me, “Oh You are lucky.! He rarely permits anybody and he has invited you with blessings. It is a good sign to mean that he is prepared to answer to your questions.”

As already guided by my Friends earlier— I prostrated at him and sat in front silently.

With closed eyes, he started talking to me in Hindi. (He knew only two Languages, Marathi and Hindi. I was well-conversant with Hindi too.)

“Your name is ------- (Said Correctly) --- You are a person of SARASWATHI-BASHA . You have come here for ---- purpose. Now You have come to me to get answers on Life Questions---- and so on-- he was uttering one after another amazing statements of Truth past and present, on my personal Life unknown to anybody else as Mankind.

Then I asked “What is meant by SARASWATHI-BASHA.?”

He replied “Your Language TAMIL is SARASWATHI-BASHA, created by Vishnu and taught by Him to Saraswathi devi who subsequently taught it to the Earthly Mankind then at Prayag (Allahabad), several Thousands of years back as the First Language of the World.

Sanskrit is a BRAHMA-BASHA which too was created by lord Vishnu and taught to Brahma who propogated it on Earth through Maha-Rishis (Sages) by Vedic Gospel but such an exclusive language Sanskrit was introduced to Earthly Mankind subsequently, only as a SECOND LANGUAGE after Tamil, the Saraswathi-Basha, the first Conversational Language in the world for the Common public. Since taught by Brahma, the Language Sanskrit is called Brahma-Basha.

Why named Saraswathi-Basha?
Not only because the Guru for teaching Tamil to the Mankind was Saraswathi-devi, but also because every time, Saraswathi-devi used to emerge out of Saraswathi-River at Prayag, Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswathi Tri- Rivers Junction. Stranger people too called Your Language Tamil--- as SARASWATHI-BASHA” Said Sadhu-Baba to me in person.

I could believe it by linking with Frenchman’s History on the Origin of Tamil Language, further coupled with another narration of Hearsay on the Tamil Saint AUVAIYAR’s Super-human Biography.!!!

Yes Tamil is the SARASWATHI-BASHA.!!!
I believe it--- whether Others believe so, Or Not.! "

I have not provided the source as I don't trust that. Put here as I thought it was interesting.

native

August 23rd, 2010, 09:33 AM

Ananth2604

August 23rd, 2010, 09:53 AM

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]TAMIL is the FIRST Language of India as well the FOREMOST in the World.!!!

yes... it is really intresting to hear such story.. could you please post the link of that story (source)?

Mad 4 Madras

August 23rd, 2010, 10:40 AM

Hi Friends, I have one Beginenrs question...Sincearly hope this will not turn into
Anti or Pro Caste Thread...

One day i got angry with my friend(who is a Brahmin) and told him to go to
ur place in North India Because that day he is teasing me too much. He again
laughed and told me Brahmins also belongs to here only and just like different caste that also one local caste.

To prove that he also telling that recent DNA research also proving that and People from Kashmir(Barring some muslim pathans) to Kanyakumari share the same DNA sequece...Is that true?

Then why Periyar and Karunadhi told they had came from for north?
Everything is a myth. Kadavulin siranda padaipu manidhan, manidhanin siranda padaipu kadavul.

To answer scientifically: Science don't have an answer either on the origin of life. If man came from monkey, where monkey came from and that came from what?

I would stop here and would take this discussion to Chaibar here (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=712180)

Mad 4 Madras

August 23rd, 2010, 10:46 AM

yes... it is really intresting to hear such story.. could you please post the link of that story (source)?

Thats from another Forum called The Hub from Mayyam.com. Link (http://www.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=962&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75)

karthikarthik

August 24th, 2010, 04:32 AM

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Jain-Tirthankara-idol-found-in-riverbed-near-Vedaranyam/articleshow/6398028.cms

NAGAPATTINAM: An 11th-century idol of a Jain Tirthankara has been found in a riverbed near Vedaranyam in Nagapattinam district.

The stone idol, about two feet tall, was found without its head. Experts who inspected it felt that the head could have been knocked off by vandals. However, the possibility of accidental wreckage could not be ruled out as well, they added.

"The Tirthankara is found on a pedestal in a sitting, meditative (dhyana) posture. The pedestal has been carved like a lion throne. In the rear side, floral symbols have been carved. The sculpture could be that of the 24th Jain Tirthankara belonging to the later Chola period," said G Thillai Govindarajan, a member of the team that found the idol.

The idol was found in the riverbed of the Mulliyar at Panchanathikulam near Vedaranyam in a face-down position. Villagers who were not aware that it was an idol were using it as a washing stone for years. However, B Jambulingam, working as a superintendent in Tamil University, Thanjavur, and Govindarajan, headmaster of a panchayat union middle school, found the idol during one of their recent field studies.

Some other parts of the idol were also found damaged, including one of the arm-rests of the throne, Govindarajan said. Images of yakshas' have been carved on either side of the Tirthankara. Similar idols of Jain preceptors have been found in many places in Thanjavur, Pudukottai and Nagapatinam areas, indicating the prevalence of Jainism in this region. Sithannavasal in Pudukottai is an abode of Jainism.

Read more: Jain Tirthankara idol found in riverbed near Vedaranyam - Chennai - City - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Jain-Tirthankara-idol-found-in-riverbed-near-Vedaranyam/articleshow/6398028.cms#ixzz0xUFBkX9G

Alphastallion

August 25th, 2010, 06:37 PM

we must be proud of the achievements of our ancestors,they have created lot of engineering marvels such as temples ,great naval ships.i believe to create all marvels they would definitely supported by engineering theorems.But seeing the our history ,our forefathers have documented love to lust.so there has to be definitely engineering text to support.and i feel there was lacking of continuity in the history of Tamils..alike all the western nations..why is it so,?

Mad 4 Madras

August 30th, 2010, 01:04 PM

Vedic literature and the Gulf of Cambay discovery
- By DAVID FRAWLEY

An old article (http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/op/2002/06/18/stories/2002061800030200.htm)

THE RECENT find of a submerged city in the Gulf of Cambay, perhaps as old as 7500 BC, serves to highlight the existence of southern sources for the civilisation of ancient India. The Gulf of Cambay find is only the latest in a series that includes Lothal (S.R. Rao), Dholavira (R.S. Bisht) and others in Gujarat. These discoveries have been pushing the seats of ancient Indian civilisation deeper into the southern peninsula. We should not be surprised if more such sites are discovered in South India, especially the coastal regions, for the south has always played a significant if neglected role in ancient India going back to Vedic times.
I have argued for such a coastal origin for Vedic civilisation in my recent book Rig Veda and the History of India. This is largely because of the oceanic character of Vedic symbolism in which all the main Rig Vedic Gods as well as many of the Vedic rishis have close connections with samudra or the sea. In fact, the image of the ocean pervades the whole of the Rig Veda. Unfortunately many scholars who put forth opinions on ancient India seldom bother to study the Vedas in the original Sanskrit and few know the language well enough to do so. The result is that their interpretation of Vedic literature is often erroneous, trusting out of date and inaccurate interpretations from the Nineteenth century like the idea that the Vedic people never new the sea!
Literary evidence

The Rig Veda states that "All the hymns praise Indra who is as expansive as the sea" (RV I.11.1) Agni wears the ocean as his vesture (RV VIII 102.4-6). The Sun is called the ocean (RV V.47.3). Soma is called the first ocean (RV IX.86.29). Varuna specifically is a God of the sea (RV I.161.14). These are just a few examples of out of well over a hundred references to samudra in the Rig Veda alone, including references to oceans as two, four or many (RV VI.50.13). This is obviously the poetry of a people intimately associated with the sea and not of any nomads from land-locked Central Asia or Eurasia.
Vedic seer families like the Bhrigus are descendants of Varuna, the God of the sea as the first Bhrigu is called Bhrigu Varuni — Bhrigu, the son of Varuna. The teachings of Varuna to Bhrigu are found in the Taittiriya Upanishad and Taittiriya tradition of the Yajur Veda, which has long been most popular in South India. The recent find at sea in the Gulf of Cambay is near Baroach or Bhrigu-kachchha, the famous ancient city of the very same Bhrigus.
These oceanic connections extend to other important Vedic rishis as well. In the Rig Veda, Agastya, who became the main rishi of South India, has twenty-five hymns in the first book of the Rig Veda and is mentioned in the other books as well. He is the elder brother of Vasishta who himself has the largest number of hymns in the text (about a hundred), those of the seventh book. Both rishis are said to have been born in a pot or kumbha, which may be a vessel or ship (RV VII.33.10-13). Vasishta is specifically connected to Varuna who was said to travel on a ship in the sea (RV VII.88.4-5). Both Vasishta and Agastya are descendants of Mitra and Varuna, the God of the sea.
Vishvamitra in the Rig Veda (IIII.53.16) mentions the sage Pulasti, who was regarded as the progenitor of Ravana and Kubera and whose city, Pulasti-Pura was located in ancient Sri Lanka. He is mentioned along with Jamadagni, another common Rig Vedic sage and the father of Parshurama, the sixth incarnation of Lord Vishnu, before Rama and Krishna, whose main sphere of activity was in the south of India.
Manu himself, the Vedic primal sage and king, is a flood figure and the Angirasas, the other main seer family apart from the Bhrigus, join him in his ship according to Puranic mythology. Southern peoples like the Yadus and Turvashas were said to have been glorified by Indra (RV X.49.8) and are mentioned a number of times in the Rig Veda as great Vedic peoples. So we have ample ancient literary evidence for the Vedic seer and royal families as connected with the ocean and southern regions.
The Cambay site is in the ancient delta of the now dry Sarasvati River, one branch of which flowed into the Gulf of Cambay, showing that this site was part of the greater Sarasvati region and culture, which was the main location for Harappan cities in the 3300-1900 BCE period. Such an ocean front was important for maritime trade for the inland regions to the north. In this regard, important Vedic kings like Sudas were said to receive tribute from the sea (RV I.47.6).
When the Greeks under Alexander came to India in the Fourth century BCE, the Greek writer Megasthenes in his Indika, fragments of which are recorded in several Greek writings, mentioned that the Indians (Hindus) had a record of 153 kings going back over 6400 years (showing that the Hindus were conscious of the great antiquity of their culture even then). This would yield a date that now amounts to 6700 BCE, a date that might be reflected in the Gulf of Cambay site which has been tentatively dated to 7500 BCE. So the old Vedic-Puranic king lists may not be that far off after all!
Material evidence

A few scholars, like Witzel in the United States — in spite of such massive evidence as the Sarasvati River and its intimate connection to Vedic literature — still try to separate Vedic culture from India and attribute it to a largely illiterate and nomadic culture that migrated into India from the northwest of the country in the post-Harappan period (after 1500 BCE). Ignoring all other evidence that connects the Vedic and Harappan, they point out the importance of the horse in the Rig Veda and argue that not enough evidence of horses has been found in Harappan sites to prove a Vedic connection. They fall back upon this one shot argument to ignore any other evidence to the contrary.
However, one should note that these invasionists or migrationists are even more deficient in horse evidence to prove their own theory. There is no trail of horse bones or horse encampments into ancient India from Afghanistan during the 1500-1000 BCE period that is required for their theory of Aryan intrusion. In fact, there is no solid evidence for such a movement of peoples at all in the form of camps, skeletal remains or anything else.
Those who claim that Vedic culture must have originated outside India because of its lauding of the horse are even more lacking in horse evidence. The real problem is not `no horse at Harappa' but `no horse evidence, in fact no real evidence of any kind, to prove any Aryan migration/invasion'. It has been convincingly shown that what the Rig Veda with its seventeen-ribbed horse (RV I.162.18) describes is a native Indian breed and not any Central Asian or Eurasian horse that has eighteen ribs.
The Rig Veda mentions many Indian animals like the water buffalo (Mahisha), which is said to be the main animal sacred to Soma (RV IX.96.6), which does occur commonly on Harappan seals. The humped Brahma bull (Vrisha, Vrishabha), another common Harappan depiction, is the main animal of Indra, the foremost of the Vedic Gods. Elephants are also mentioned.
Most of the animals depicted on Harappan seals are mythical, not zoological specimens anyway. Most common is a one-horned animal that is reflected in the one-horned boar or Varaha of the Mahabharata and the boar incarnation of Lord Vishnu. Many other Harappan depictions are of animals with multiple heads or half-animal/half-human figures. This is similar to the depictions in Vedic imagery which largely consist of mythical animals of this type. For example, Harappan seals portray a three-headed bull-like animal. Such an animal is described in the Rig Veda (III.56.6).
A smokescreen

The horse issue is meant as a smokescreen to avoid facing the facts of the Sarasvati River and the many new archaeological sites in India. These show no such break in the continuity of civilisation in the region as an Aryan invasion/migration requires, including the existence of fire altars and fire worship from the early Harappan period. Vedic and Puranic literature itself records the shift of the centre of culture from the Sarasvati to the Ganga at the end of the Vedic period, referring to the drying up of the river. Scholars like Witzel would have the Vedic people coming into India after the Sarasvati was already gone and yet making the river their ancestral homeland and most sacred region!
Vedic literature is the largest preserved from the ancient world, dwarfing in size anything left by other cultures like Egypt, Greece or Babylonia. The Harappan-Sarasvati urban civilisation of India was by far the largest of its time (3100-1900 BCE) in the ancient world spreading from Punjab to Kachchh. We can no longer separate this great literature and this great civilisation, particularly given that both were based on the Sarasvati River, whose authenticity as a historical river before 1900 BCE has been confirmed by numerous geological studies. This great Vedic literature requires a great urban culture to explain it, just as the great Harappan urban culture requires a literature to explain it. Both come from the same region and cannot be separated.
Finally it is sad to note how intellectuals in India are quick to denigrate the extent and antiquity of their history, even when geological evidence like the Sarasvati River or archaeological evidence like the Harappan and Cambay sites are so clear. However one may interpret these, the truth that civilisation in India was quite ancient and profound cannot be ignored. I don't think there is any other nation on earth that would be so negative if such ancient glories were found in their lands.

Any other news about Gulf of Cambay?

satishanu

August 30th, 2010, 10:19 PM

Inscriptions found at an ancient temple at Tirumukkoodal village in neighbouring Kancheepuram District have revealed the existence of a 15-bed hospital and vedic school around 900 years ago.

The inscriptions at Venkatesa Perumal Temple found by epigraphist K V Subramanya Iyer spoke about 'athura-salai', a hospital attached to this temple which treated students of the vedic schools and temple staff, Archaeological Survey of India sources said.

The temple, which has been declared a protected monument and maintained by ASI, is located at the confluence of Palar, Vegavathi and Cheyyar rivers. The hospital, called Vira-Cholan, had 15 beds and a large staff, comprising a physician named Kodandaraman Ashvathaman-Bhattan, a surgeon, several nurses who attended on patients, servants who fetched medicinal herbs and a barber.

The payment given to hospital staff and the names of about 20 Ayurvedic medicines stored in this hospital are given in detail in the informative epigraph. According to the epigraphs in the shrine, Tirumukkudal was situated in the ancient territorial sub-division called Madhurantaka-Chaturvedimangalam which was part of Kalatur-Kottam, a district of Jayamkonda-chola-mandalam.

The temple, which once reverberated with the sound of Vedic chanting and recitation of Sanskrit texts, now stands mute testimony to the glorious times of the Pallavas and the Cholas, whose kings, besides being great conquerors and administrators, strove for the propagation of learning and literature.

Source: http://expressbuzz.com/states/tamilnadu/proof-of-900-year-old-tn-hospital-found/202165.html

Marathaman

August 31st, 2010, 06:54 AM

David Frawley :ohno:

karthikarthik

August 31st, 2010, 08:32 AM

Came across a blog on 99 Tamil flowers. OMG we are not sure about some missing(extinct?) flowers

http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/99tamilflowers_slideshow/

Mad 4 Madras

August 31st, 2010, 08:38 AM

David Frawley :ohno:
We need other source :) If anyone can produce I would be happy. Gulf of Cambay is indeed interesting.

Arul Murugan

September 15th, 2010, 04:40 PM

Time line of Tamil Script:cheers:

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9863/tamilscript.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/tamilscript.jpg/)

Arasu

September 15th, 2010, 10:02 PM

^^
Informative post.

It is clear that writing in palm script in the later centuries have contributed to the change of shape of letters from a linear form to more rounded form.

The linear form of writing using to avoid damaging the palm leaves with the sharp stylus that was used for transcribing. During the later centuries, the quantum of writing would have increased due to newer texts as well as maintaining the old ones.

dhandapanik

September 16th, 2010, 05:56 AM

Came across a blog on 99 Tamil flowers. OMG we are not sure about some missing(extinct?) flowers

http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/99tamilflowers_slideshow/

I remember surya saying all these tamil flowers in one parattu vizha for MK. I think he said the same names in Poovellam kettupar(?) film.

Edited later..
Author has mentioned the video from Poovellam kettupar in the blog: :)
http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/99tamilflowers_index/

ChennaiIndian

September 20th, 2010, 03:09 AM

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Road-workers-stumble-upon-ancient-grinding-stone-in-Pallavaram-/articleshow/6581764.cms

CHENNAI: Workers of the city projects divisi on of the state highways department unwittingly became excavators as they stumbled upon an ancient granite structure, possibly a lime crushing stone -- while digging a trench for constructing a subway on Dargah Road at Old Pallavaram.

Following earlier finds of cairns by the Archaeological Survey of India, Old Pallavaram has been notified as a megalithic site. ASI officials will inspect the grinding stone to ascertain its age and possible connection with pre-historic communities that are believed to have lived here.

On Friday night, a few workers with an earth mover were digging the western end of the proposed Rs 17.9 crore vehicular subway. They heard an unusual sound and realised the machine had hit a stone object, which was later found at a depth of three metres. The men swiftly removed the sand and pulled out the object with the earth mover and it turned out to be a large crushing stone in the form of a granite wheel. The monolithic structure, is 12 feet in diameter and weighs about 4.5 tonnes. They alerted the site engineers who informed their higher officials and revenue officials of Alandur taluk. Revenue officials examined the stone on Friday. Hundreds of residents thronged the site to catch a glimpse of the giant circular object. "It looks like a major find. We've informed officials of the state archaeological department about the discovery," Alandur tahsildar K Sowrirajan told TOI.

...

karthikarthik

September 22nd, 2010, 04:37 AM

http://www.frontline.in/stories/20101008272006400.htm

http://www.frontline.in/images/20101008272006401.jpg

ChennaiIndian

September 24th, 2010, 11:22 PM

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Chennai/article793444.ece

A model of the Kudavolai method of elections conducted by Rajaraja Cholan was the cynosure of all eyes at the exhibition. The model depicts a person putting a palm leaf chip into a pot.

What attracted visitors was the eligibility of the candidates who could contest. A note under the model stated that those in the age group of 35 to 70 could contest.

...

ChennaiIndian

September 24th, 2010, 11:24 PM

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article793420.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00257/25TH_UTTARAKALASAM_257449f.jpg

While the king's Brihadisvara temple gets all the attention, the queen's temple hardly draws attention

While the Chola king Rajaraja I and the Brihadisvara temple he built at Thanjavur receive the entire spotlight in the millennium celebrations, another temple located 15 km away and built at the same time by his principal queen Lokamahadevi stands in the shadow of fame.

Within the compound of Panchanadeeswarar temple at Thiruvaiyaru is Vadakailasam (north kailasam) or Lokamahadevisvaram, as it is known in the inscriptions. Completed in 1006 C.E, four years before the Brihadisvara temple was finished, this modest temple built by Lokamahadevi is no comparison to that of the temple at Thanjavur in size, but it is known for giving women an equal and respectable role in temple administration.

The Lokamahadevisavram, though small in size, was well endowed. One of the inscriptions in this temple draws out a long and impressive list of jewels donated to the deities by Lokamahadevi. Unlike the Brihadisvara temple that was managed by Rajajara's powerful male officials, Lokamahadevisavarm, under the orders of the queen, was administered by an adhikarachi, a woman officer by name Eruthan Kuncharamalli.

While there was a male officer, the queen made it clear that Kuncharamalli would equally share the responsibilities with him.

...

rsubbu.mdu

September 25th, 2010, 04:25 AM

Time line of Tamil Script:cheers:

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9863/tamilscript.jpg (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/tamilscript.jpg/)

This shows how the Tamil and Devanagri script were almost the same during early periods. Check out the "அ" and "க". They are very similar to their hindi counterparts "अ" and "क " during very early periods.

ChennaiIndian

October 11th, 2010, 03:50 AM

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chennai/asi-identifies-10-sites-monuments-992

Chennai, Oct. 8: The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) has identified over 10 megalithic sites in Chennai and its suburbs for preserving as monuments. As per the ancient monuments and archaeological sites and remains Act, no construction is allowed 100 metres from the monuments.
Delivering her speech at a seminar organised by Chennai Metropolitan Development Authority (CMDA) on Friday, Ms Sathyabhama Badhreenath, superintending archaeologist, ASI, said the Union government recently amended the ancient monuments and archaeological sites and remains Act, prescribing a minimum of 100 metres as prohibited area around Centrally-protected monuments.
ASI has identified some lands in Nandambakkam, Tiruneermalai, Kadaperi, Sembakkam, Nanmangalam, Pallavaram, Chitlapakkam and Tirusulam as megalithic sites.

...

satishanu

October 15th, 2010, 02:35 AM

qZCpqPExEMM

satishanu

October 15th, 2010, 02:42 AM

acALAypFTgA

Marathaman

October 20th, 2010, 07:04 PM

If you have broadband, lovely HD video of Thiruvannamalai.

BtEdqPwFQRw

kongutamizhan

October 21st, 2010, 05:27 PM

Is Raja Raja Chozan's rule really the Golden period? Series of in-depth articles from Jeyamohan. Irrespective of whether you agree to it or not, you will appreciate the effort and detailed study for sure. Makes a nice read :)

http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=8711
http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=8712

Since he talks extensively about Marxism on both the above articles, for complete understanding of his views one might have to read his views about marxism as well. Link to his view on marxism is given below

http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=8705

arun82

October 25th, 2010, 03:12 PM

I think TN tourism must have its own luxuary train in line with rajasthan , karnataka and mahrastra tourism . The train can be funded by the TN tourism and will sure be a huge tourist puller. Considering that palance on wheels is booked till 2012. It provides tremendous oppurtunity. POW charges INR 120000 per person so it can provide good revenue to the tourism board. Further it help in uniform tourism development of the state.

wlbkng

October 30th, 2010, 12:43 PM

dhandapanik

November 1st, 2010, 09:03 AM

Friends,

I have doubts about modern Tamilnadu.. i.e after independence. Those who know the correct answers please clarify.. But don't guess or assume as I want to know the true.

* While carving state of TN(then Madras state), who were the negotiators(apart from Rajaji)? Except linguistic basis what are the other factors which played role in carving our state?

* The reason why I have posted this is why those people did not have an idea of the rivers and origin.. as only the source of the river is in other states while it flows in TN and always we have probs with other states for water.. why did we lose such big forests in kerala(where literally no big population is there to be divided on a linguistic basis) where many rivers originate..

* This point may be a bit absurd. If we could go till Hosur, why we did not negotiate for b'lore? i know this is too stupid from today's point of time but it is not so by that time.

* What about chittor, tirupathi, sriharikota etc? i know andra people tried to take madras into andra and make it as capital but what made to lose tirupathi, chittor etc.? in that time i reckon that there were large amount of tamil community in tat place..

* why did we lose kolar gold fields, and other areas etc...

I also wonder why we lose part of palakkad dist, Munnar(and part of Idukki dist) in KL where tamils are considered as majority. My uncle resides in a village in KL-TN border which falls under Palakkad district. Malayalees are less than 10%(even less than this). you can rarely notice a Malayalam speaking people in these areas(except the bakery and tea shops).. Those ppl depends on CBE completely.

Kanyakumari dist ppl fought and they are merged with TN after formation of KL. Donno why ppl from other parts which i mentioned didnt fought.

wlbkng

November 1st, 2010, 07:53 PM

I also wonder why we lose part of palakkad dist, Munnar(and part of Idukki dist) in KL where tamils are considered as majority. My uncle resides in a village in KL-TN border which falls under Palakkad district. Malayalees are less than 10%(even less than this). you can rarely notice a Malayalam speaking people in these areas(except the bakery and tea shops).. Those ppl depends on CBE completely.

Kanyakumari dist ppl fought and they are merged with TN after formation of KL. Donno why ppl from other parts which i mentioned didnt fought.

actually i heard something like to get kanyakumari we ceded munnar...

sudheeshnairs

November 4th, 2010, 07:09 PM

I also wonder why we lose part of palakkad dist, Munnar(and part of Idukki dist) in KL where tamils are considered as majority.Kanyakumari dist ppl fought and they are merged with TN after formation of KL. Donno why ppl from other parts which i mentioned didnt fought.

Eventhough part of erstwhile Travancore, Kanyakumari dist had a predominant Tamil population, especially of Nadars. Nairs & Nadars were the majority communities in KK dist, the former being the landlords and the latter subtenants to the former. While Nairs spoke Malayalam, Nadars are Tamil speaking who migrated to Travancore during 16th Century AD.

Since Tamil speaking people were absolute majority, KK dist was merged with TN, eventhough regarding geography, climate, history or social indices, it resembled more of Kerala.

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.

I also wonder why we lose Munnar(and part of Idukki dist) in KL where tamils are considered as majority.

Tamils in Munnar or parts of Idukki are mainly migrant plantation workers. Of course they form a 'lingusitic minority' and sometimes a 'decisive' factor in elections, but not a majoity population in the whole of the district. Most of them live in plantation quarters. Also population is comparably sparse. We also use to hear stories in newspapers that large number of them have migrated back to the villages in their home State when crisis hit the tea sector.

actually i heard something like to get kanyakumari we ceded munnar...

For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.

Chennai_m

November 5th, 2010, 07:32 PM

Eventhough part of erstwhile Travancore, Kanyakumari dist had a predominant Tamil population, especially of Nadars. Nairs & Nadars were the majority communities in KK dist, the former being the landlords and the latter subtenants to the former. While Nairs spoke Malayalam, Nadars are Tamil speaking who migrated to Travancore during 16th Century AD.

Since Tamil speaking people were absolute majority, KK dist was merged with TN, eventhough regarding geography, climate, history or social indices, it resembled more of Kerala.

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.

Tamils in Munnar or parts of Idukki are mainly migrant plantation workers. Of course they form a 'lingusitic minority' and sometimes a 'decisive' factor in elections, but not a majoity population in the whole of the district. Most of them live in plantation quarters. Also population is comparably sparse. We also use to hear stories in newspapers that large number of them have migrated back to the villages in their home State when crisis hit the tea sector.

For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.

Palakkad going to kerala makes sense as the Tamils (mostly Brahmins) living there are descendants of migrants from TN. It has historically been a Malayalam speaking district...and even most tamil brahmins in palakkad can speak malayalam fluently.

rsubbu.mdu

November 6th, 2010, 10:52 AM

Eventhough part of erstwhile Travancore, Kanyakumari dist had a predominant Tamil population, especially of Nadars. Nairs & Nadars were the majority communities in KK dist, the former being the landlords and the latter subtenants to the former. While Nairs spoke Malayalam, Nadars are Tamil speaking who migrated to Travancore during 16th Century AD.

Since Tamil speaking people were absolute majority, KK dist was merged with TN, eventhough regarding geography, climate, history or social indices, it resembled more of Kerala.

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.

Tamils in Munnar or parts of Idukki are mainly migrant plantation workers. Of course they form a 'lingusitic minority' and sometimes a 'decisive' factor in elections, but not a majoity population in the whole of the district. Most of them live in plantation quarters. Also population is comparably sparse. We also use to hear stories in newspapers that large number of them have migrated back to the villages in their home State when crisis hit the tea sector.

For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.

In the ensuring discussions, don't miss out on Shencottah region which was transferred to TN. Shencottah was once the border town of Travancore state and even now the arch with the conch symbol stands at the entrance of Shencottah.

Regards,
Subbu

wlbkng

November 6th, 2010, 12:35 PM

shencottah too? hmm learning point for me.... but does anyone know how come we went so close to bangalore(i mean till hosur) but we dint get b'lore... similarly we did not get kolar, chittor, pulicat and sriharikota where there were no clear linguistic majority during independence i suppose.. anyone know why.. also why did we lose katchatheevu as a gift to SL.. and now our own people aint allowed to go der even for fishing.. what is the significance of that island?

ChennaiIndian

November 6th, 2010, 07:40 PM

Eventhough part of erstwhile Travancore, Kanyakumari dist had a predominant Tamil population, especially of Nadars. Nairs & Nadars were the majority communities in KK dist, the former being the landlords and the latter subtenants to the former. While Nairs spoke Malayalam, Nadars are Tamil speaking who migrated to Travancore during 16th Century AD.

Since Tamil speaking people were absolute majority, KK dist was merged with TN, eventhough regarding geography, climate, history or social indices, it resembled more of Kerala.

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.

Tamils in Munnar or parts of Idukki are mainly migrant plantation workers. Of course they form a 'lingusitic minority' and sometimes a 'decisive' factor in elections, but not a majoity population in the whole of the district. Most of them live in plantation quarters. Also population is comparably sparse. We also use to hear stories in newspapers that large number of them have migrated back to the villages in their home State when crisis hit the tea sector.

For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.

Kerala was ruled by the Tamil Chera kings for a very long time before the Kerala Rajas took over.

So there is no surprise that Tamils are in large numbers there...just that they had migrated to places closer to TN in the past few centuries.

Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chera_Dynasty)

Old Chera kingdom - Kerala during the Sangam period

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Kerala-map_2.png

catchshash

November 6th, 2010, 11:15 PM

Friends,

I have doubts about modern Tamilnadu.. i.e after independence. Those who know the correct answers please clarify.. But don't guess or assume as I want to know the true.

* While carving state of TN(then Madras state), who were the negotiators(apart from Rajaji)? Except linguistic basis what are the other factors which played role in carving our state?

* The reason why I have posted this is why those people did not have an idea of the rivers and origin.. as only the source of the river is in other states while it flows in TN and always we have probs with other states for water.. why did we lose such big forests in kerala(where literally no big population is there to be divided on a linguistic basis) where many rivers originate..

* This point may be a bit absurd. If we could go till Hosur, why we did not negotiate for b'lore? i know this is too stupid from today's point of time but it is not so by that time.

* What about chittor, tirupathi, sriharikota etc? i know andra people tried to take madras into andra and make it as capital but what made to lose tirupathi, chittor etc.? in that time i reckon that there were large amount of tamil community in tat place..

* why did we lose kolar gold fields, and other areas etc...

blore, kolar, chittoor, tirupati etc are located in a region where people speaking telugu, kannada and tamil are residents. but there is a bigger majority of telugu speakers in chittor, tirupati, sriharikota etc and kannda speakers in blore, kolar etc. since i am more familiar with history of ktaka, i am in a better position to explain why tn didnt get blore or kolar. when these reqions were under mysore state, under a treaty, the maharaja of mysore gave some land near blore, which is the cantonment of the present to the british, for their offices. kolar was given mainly for gold mining. During this time, a lot of laborers who were tamils, migrated to this region for employment. thats how the number of tamils in these areas increased to some extent. after independence, since blore was more commercially developed, the capital of mysore state was moved to blore from mysore. its obvious that no one will give away their capital. frankly speaking, this region has 60% kannadigas, nd 20% each of telugu tamil speakers. same is the case with chittoor, tirupati, sriharikota etc., where the majority( >70%) speak telugu.

dhandapanik

November 8th, 2010, 06:55 AM

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.

East of palakkad district which is near to TN borders has around 75% tamil speaking population. I can very well see this because my uncle resides in village that is part of palakkad dist. Tamils living in these areas are not migrant population. Most of them are dependent on either CBE or Pollachi.

For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.

Merging of KK dist is not a loss to KL. It was merged after having agitations by nesamony and his supporters. We dont have good leader in the TN bordering areas in palakkad dist for doing this.

sudheeshnairs

November 8th, 2010, 09:18 AM

Kerala was ruled by the Tamil Chera kings for a very long time before the Kerala Rajas took over.

So there is no surprise that Tamils are in large numbers there...just that they had migrated to places closer to TN in the past few centuries.

Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chera_Dynasty)

Old Chera kingdom - Kerala during the Sangam period.

Are we speaking about the period during reorganization of states or about the period 1000 years back??

Tamil & Malayalam in its present form took shape several centuries later from the ‘Proto’ language that was used during that times.

East of palakkad district which is near to TN borders has around 75% tamil speaking population. I can very well see this because my uncle resides in village that is part of palakkad dist.

Friend, please speak based on ‘statistics’ only which would be available with the local bodies. I am not fully denying that there could be considerable population of Tamils close to the border in Palakkad. It might not have been a majority during the time of reorganization. And I think it doesn’t matter if some villages have higher population, it would be atleat on the basis of Taluks.

Merging of KK dist is not a loss to KL. It was merged after having agitations by nesamony and his supporters. We dont have good leader in the TN bordering areas in palakkad dist for doing this.

Not only leaders, the number of followers too matter. And it is about absolute numbers only. As I said earlier, some taluks of present day KK dist were having more number of Tamils (Mostly Nadars). Malayalees were mainly the Nairs and even though they were the landlords, they were the minority.

The Tamils of Palakkad, mostly Brahmins were not a majority.

In the ensuring discussions, don't miss out on Shencottah region which was transferred to TN. Shencottah was once the border town of Travancore state and even now the arch with the conch symbol stands at the entrance of Shencottah.

Regards,
Subbu

Ya, Shencottah was the border town of Travancore. Now the border is in the ‘S’ Curve where you leave the ghats and enter the plains. Even though under the control of Travancore, Shencottah was predominantly Tamil as well as part of the Tamil Nadu plains. If you check ‘google earth’ images, you can find the difference in the topography and geology between the two states, esp near this border.

dhandapanik

November 8th, 2010, 10:00 AM

Are we speaking about the period during reorganization of states or about the period 1000 years back??

Tamil & Malayalam in its present form took shape several centuries later from the ‘Proto’ language that was used during that times.

we cannot consider the history thats 1000 yrs back for dividing states. Only ancient tamil was spoken in TN and KL in those days. Later tamil spoken in malai nadu(Chera) became the present day malayalam and TN adopted the present day tamil. I think malayalam has more ancient tamil words than we(tamils) use for conversation.

Friend, please speak based on ‘statistics’ only which would be available with the local bodies. I am not fully denying that there could be considerable population of Tamils close to the border in Palakkad. It might not have been a majority during the time of reorganization. And I think it doesn’t matter if some villages have higher population, it would be atleat on the basis of Taluks.

I'm talking about the regions of Kozhinjampara and Chittoor in the present day Palakkad dist. Chittor has more malayalam speaking population. Atleast 60-70% of people are malayalees in chittoor town. In case of other towns in these areas, tamils are the majority. When you go towards palakkad, density of malayalam speaking people will increase.

Not only leaders, the number of followers too matter. And it is about absolute numbers only. As I said earlier, some taluks of present day KK dist were having more number of Tamils (Mostly Nadars). Malayalees were mainly the Nairs and even though they were the landlords, they were the minority.

The Tamils of Palakkad, mostly Brahmins were not a majority.

Tamils of palakkad(brahmins are more compared to others) got decreased in palakkad after the merger. I heard this from a friend who is a malayalee and native of palakkad.

In govt offices/panchayat/taluk offices they use notice boards in both malayalam and tamil. Compared to other states, KL scores here. In transporation, KeSRTC follows it well. KeSRTC buses have display boards in tamil too.

Leo_r

November 8th, 2010, 10:11 AM

My God, I want AP,Karnataka,Kerala and TN should put up a joint front,with common goals to preserve our way of life and act as pressure group to develop our region.Free borders and intermingling (by Marriage)can even lead to formation of a federation sort of thing ,ultimately resulting in great prosperity to our people and region as whole...

Time being let us forget about north of Vindhyas and unite.

Why bother over Palaghat,Mysore,Bangalore,Thirupathi etc.?

Justice Party in TN, the forerunner to the present Dravidian Parties was formed by Mr G N Chetty,Dr Natesan and Dr Nair, You have major roads named after them in T Nagar,Chennai.

wlbkng

November 8th, 2010, 12:16 PM

^^ That would be awesome. If four states join hands together for development, then it would be a win-win situation for all. building infrastructure will be the core for development.

Building high speed rail links and road network b/w
chennai-b'lore-mangalore (already proposed til b'lore),
chennai-tirupati-kurnool-hyderabad,
bangalore-bellary-raichur-palamooru-hyderabad,
chennai-salem-coimbatore-kochi-trivandrum,
trivandrum-kochi-kozhikode-mysore-bangalore,
chennai-trichy-madurai-kanyakumari
vizag-rajamundry-vijayawada-guntur- kavali-nellore-chennai-pondy-thanjavur-ramanathapuram-thoothukudi-nagaercoil (along the east coast)
goa-udupi-mangalore-mahe-kochi (along west coast)

* We can promote investment all together.. promote industrial regions and townships near the bordering regions b/w the states.

* Bring common syllabus for schools. they should improve and standardise the current syllabus in schools to a common yet advanced one. apart from each state's own mother tongue n english, students shud be encouraged to learn another south indian lang(better if it is part of system)

* We should promote package tourism b/w the states for travellers from our states/rest of india/abroad...

* e-governance should be implemented based on a common system and many offices should be linked b/w each states.. for e.g police dept should be upgraded to the highest standards possible and linked with each other to help finding crimes etc.

* Greater autonomy should be given to this region in order to take decisions on investments, partnerships, railways etc.

I hope others will have lot of proposals to put forward.. Well this is a dream but when it comes into force, it will be awesome!!

sudheeshnairs

November 8th, 2010, 01:23 PM

we cannot consider the history thats 1000 yrs back for dividing states.

Yes, I was mentioning that only. The divisions were mainly based on the language being spoken by the ‘majority’ people at the time of reorganisation.

Only ancient tamil was spoken in TN and KL in those days. Later tamil spoken in malai nadu(Chera) became the present day malayalam and TN adopted the present day tamil.

The evolution of the languages from the ‘Proto’ language took place in the last 1000 years. It was not the ‘Tamil’ spoken in Chera , but the ‘Proto’ language which transformed to Malayalam of Kerala later, with the influence of Sanskrit. (We had pages long debates in chaibar sometime back also).

I think malayalam has more ancient tamil words than we(tamils) use for conversation.

I am not sure about Tamil words since I do not know much about Tamil, but there are lots of Sanskrit words. Malayalam was heavily Sanskritised through the ages and today, over eighty percent words of modern Malayalam are from pure Sanskrit.

Tamils of palakkad(brahmins are more compared to others) got decreased in palakkad after the merger. I heard this from a friend who is a malayalee and native of palakkad.

That is more to do about ‘Brahmins’ rather than being Tamil. Same is the case with Namboothiris (Kerala Brahmins) too.

In govt offices/panchayat/taluk offices they use notice boards in both malayalam and tamil. Compared to other states, KL scores here. In transportation, KeSRTC follows it well. KeSRTC buses have display boards in tamil too.

Trivandrum city has Tamil medium schools for the minority Tamils. But in KK district, where there were similar number of Malayalees, the Malayalam medium schools were shut down and now practically nil or a very few schools exist.

sudheeshnairs

November 8th, 2010, 02:41 PM

My God, I want AP,Karnataka,Kerala and TN should put up a joint front, Time being let us forget about north of Vindhyas and unite.

I beg to differ. I would like to want the whole region till the Himalayas in the north and not till Vindhyas to unite and put up a joint front.

Personally speaking, I do keep only two mindsets, on a macro level I am an Indian and on a micro level I am a Mallu, nothing more than that.

gnams

November 8th, 2010, 06:45 PM

The evolution of the languages from the ‘Proto’ language took place in the last 1000 years. It was not the ‘Tamil’ spoken in Chera , but the ‘Proto’ language which transformed to Malayalam of Kerala later, with the influence of Sanskrit. (We had pages long debates in chaibar sometime back also).

Here, i beg to differ.. there was no such evolution for Tamil before 1000 years. coz, the evolution of tamil was even very much earlier, present day modern tamil is not much different from its old tamil. (except in modern day lettters used for writing)
the proto / meta language for tamil is always tamil (some say old tamil, dramila, proto tamil etc etc.... but it was always tamil it is mentioned in Tolkappiyam a 300 BC literature also)
this said, i wud love to know what is the so called "proto" language for malayalam.??!!

sanskritization of malayalam took place only after 12th or 13th century. one can refer to any national/international indologists for this.

this said, again, one can take any word in malayalam and if they can arrive at
its etymology it shud fall under eiter proto tamil or prakrit or sanskrit (and again sanskritization of malayalam took place only after 12th century) the word "malayalam" itself is a good example.

these words can trigger another array of debates and hence i am stopping here, thanks,

MegaStructure

November 8th, 2010, 09:48 PM

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1256/9854.jpg

MegaStructure

November 8th, 2010, 09:51 PM

^Such classifications are strictly for academic use, and are hardly relevant when it comes to politics, although politicians love to interpret/misinterpret scholarly studies to pursue their agenda.

Middle "Indo-Aryan" languages for example were built on a "Dravidian" substratum, while "Dravidian"" languages borrow a lot of vocabulary from "Indo-Aryan" languages. To define a certain territory/race/culture as "Dravidian" just doesn't stand up to academic scrutiny.

gnams

November 8th, 2010, 10:33 PM

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1256/9854.jpg

i can say this tree diagram is somewhat ok... but not fully correct. i dont want to go in details.

but my question even in my previous post was "what is that proto-dravidian" language? anyone interested can dig into that....

from the proto-dravidian itself, tamil is coming but all along with an attachment ;)

MegaStructure

November 8th, 2010, 10:42 PM

"Proto Dravidian" is just an academic construct. I don't think anybody really knows exactly what it sounded like or how (or if) it was written. But clearly that language was significantly different from the current group of Dravidian languages.

Also, there would have been a number of "proto-dravidian" languages in ancient times as well. Due to lack of communication languages probably differed widely every few kilometers. Of course later we have had periods of consolidation when large empires forced people to adopt the standardized imperial language followed by periods of fragmentation etc.

Secondly, "proto-dravidian" is not confined to any geographic area. One could argue that Dravidian and Munda were the two major original language groups of India which extended throughout the subcontinent, the Indo-Aryan layers coming only later.

The Munda language family is definitely the oldest in India, and it predates both Dravidian and Indo-Aryan influences.

gnams

November 8th, 2010, 10:46 PM

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1256/9854.jpg

again, just to note this tree diagram is not fully correct, few points are;
1)the first literature of tamil , tolkappiyam is around 300 BC and the first literature of malayalam (am not sure whcih one, but i believe) camee only after manipravalam nadai. so, if there is this much difference, how come the box for malayalam was drawn directly from "proto-tamil-malayalam" and box for tamil from "proto-tamil".
note: even the wiki says earlier development of malayalam was heavily influenced by proto-tamil.
again, this tree diagram was only some part of indologists belief. not all indologists follow this.

why i said this is somewhat correct is , one cant at any cost avoid that word "tamil" from the so many boxes where it comes with an extra attachement like "kannada, malayalam, toda etc"... but at the same time no bosy has proved the existence of those attachments along with tamil like proto-tamil-kannada etc...

gnams

November 8th, 2010, 10:56 PM

MegaStructure

November 8th, 2010, 11:09 PM

gnams

November 8th, 2010, 11:13 PM

Caldwell's work is very dated and often wrong. He indirectly helped to propagate racial theories that postulated the Aryan/Dravidian dichotomy which is now considered to be false. Linguistics and research on human genetics has progressed a lot since then.

But still his works on comparitive grammar of dravidian languages are of high standards, thats where i was referring to and not to the ones for linguistics and which helped to propagate racial theories.( but again, even the new theorieswhich have come after that are not 100% proved.)

MegaStructure

November 8th, 2010, 11:26 PM

Yeah as he was the pioneer as far as linguistics of S. Indian languages is concerned.

MegaStructure

November 8th, 2010, 11:57 PM

I beg to differ. I would like to want the whole region till the Himalayas in the north and not till Vindhyas to unite and put up a joint front.

Personally speaking, I do keep only two mindsets, on a macro level I am an Indian and on a micro level I am a Mallu, nothing more than that.

Ideally, the center in India should be powerful enough to prevent political fragmentation and ethnic conflicts within India, while there should be enough state autonomy so that they can pursue their own policies without depending on a highly inefficient center for every little thing. I think we are moving in that direction and eventually we should strike the right balance.

Today, Chief Ministers are quite capable of running their own show without begging the center for everything, and visionary CMs can transform their state if they want to do so.

Obviously the relatively industrialized coastal states with access to ports are often unhappy that they have to fund the poor interior regions which don't contribute much in terms of taxes, but that's the price you pay for peace and political stability.

ChennaiIndian

November 20th, 2010, 01:51 AM

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chennai/assembly-debates-1920s-set-be-digitised-477

Chennai, Nov. 18: You can get all the details of lengthy debates on any contentious issues over the decades — right from the Cauvery to Mullaiperiyar — at a click of the mouse, if the state Assembly secretariat’s ambitious plan works out. The department has come out with an idea of digitising the debate since 1920s which runs to 10 lakh pages.
Assembly secretary M. Selvaraj told Deccan Chronicle that the preliminary discussion with various government agencies was over. There are two proposals. One is to scan and digitise all the 10 lakh pages of Assembly proceedings. And the other will be to create an archive on debates on all major subjects so that anyone can easily get the crux of the matter.
The state Assembly has the heritage of hosting stalwarts, freedom fighters and social reformers from some parts of Orissa, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala as its members.

...

Mr.Nellai

November 29th, 2010, 11:31 AM

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00289/19FRELEPHANT__289470f.jpg

Source (http://www.thehindu.com/arts/article893815.ece)

neohistoryman

December 7th, 2010, 06:40 PM

^^ Thanks for the picture and the accompanying article. Really impressive. These are the unknown or rather unsung wonders that dot our countryside.

Mr.Nellai

December 27th, 2010, 07:27 AM

^^ Thanks for the picture and the accompanying article. Really impressive. These are the unknown or rather unsung wonders that dot our countryside.

You are welcome

Mr.Nellai

December 27th, 2010, 07:29 AM

1400 years old Samanar cave found in Palani

http://epaper.dinamani.com/epaperimages/27122010/27122010-cni-mn-05/311415.JPG

Arul Murugan

January 1st, 2011, 03:50 AM

5000years old stone age art found in Krishnagiri

http://dkn.dinakaran.com/pdf/2011/01/01/20110101a_003104006.jpg

DKN

ChennaiIndian

January 3rd, 2011, 07:22 AM

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Yale-lecturer-gives-insights-into-Chola-era-poets/articleshow/7207519.cms

CHENNAI: Literature from the Sangam and Chola periods are treated as the benchmark of Tamil literature, but there were towering poets even after the Chola period -- such as Irattaitar, Kaviraja Pillai and Antakakkavi Viraraghava Mudaliyar -- who are today largely unsung, according to Blake Wentworth, a lecturer in Tamil and religious studies at the Yale University.

Focusing on the works of the great 17-century poet Viraraghava Mudaliyar, Blake spoke elaborately on the poet's life and works and the literary sensibilities of him and his audience. "Antakakkavi stands between great periods of Tamil literature that have determined literary studies in the past decades. But he also had his exemplars, and by knowing who they were, and how they were to be invoked and transformed through the poet's creative art, we can better understand what it meant to say that someone had the gift of poetry once the Tamil Saiva tradition had already recognised its classics," said Blake, who is working on a critical study of Tamil ula, a literary genre that depicts the procession of gods and heroes.

...

ChennaiIndian

January 10th, 2011, 02:38 AM

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/article1076055.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00350/10THFORT_350052f.jpg

Work on the renovation of the ‘pushkarani' (tank) wall of the 300-year-old Tirumayam Fort is nearing completion.

The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), which has been maintaining the monument, is giving a facelift to the fort's northern side.

Built in 1687 by Vijaya Regunatha Thevar — the Sethupathy of Ramanathapuram — the Tirumayam Fort played an important role during the Tondaiman rule in Pudukottai. The British had used it as an arsenal for its army. The ASI has been renovating the fort in a phased manner. In the earlier phases, the ASI renovated the fort's south entrance.

The ‘pushkarani' is near Sri Sathyamurthy Perumal temple, one of the rock-cut temples of the fort. The renovation of the ‘pushkarani' wall formed an important part of the project as the square-shaped stones used during original construction had collapsed about 40 years ago. Though scattered, the stones had remained at the site, which had helped the renovation process to a great extent. A majority of the stones had been recovered intact at the site and have been replaced. Only a few stones were newly made, ASI sources said. Care has been taken for the restoration of the ‘pushkarani' wall which is about 20 m in length and 4 m in height.

...

ChennaiIndian

January 10th, 2011, 02:41 AM

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article1073443.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00349/Mamallapuram_349574f.jpg

Vijayanagara rulers built a pillared mantapa in front of it killing forever the cascade effect

On December 6 and 7, 2010, Mamallapuram, 50 km from Chennai, famed for its Pallava period rock-cut sculptures, recorded 20 cm of rain. It was the kind of rainfall that could have brought to life one of the famous bas-relief panels there, adjacent to the popular Arjuna's Penance bas-relief: Krishna lifting Govardhana hill to protect the cowherds, their wives, children, cows and bulls from a deluge caused by the wrath of Indra.

The pounding rain would have created a dramatic cascade down the rock and all around the bas-relief of Krishna and the community of cowherds just as the Pallava sculptors of the 7th century C.E. intended, says S. Balusami, Associate Professor of Tamil at the Madras Christian College, Tambaram.

The Pallava sculptors had conjured up the Mamallapuram rock as Govardhana hill and created a splendid row of sculptures depicting the life of cowherds and a majestic Krishna nonchalantly lifting the hill with his left hand.

Art historian C. Sivaramamurti, in his short book, Mahabalipuram, first published by the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) in 1952, asserts that: “This representation of the Govardhana scene is probably the best in India, even the one at Ellora coming nowhere near this.”

But, Dr. Balusami says, the Vijayanagara rulers of the 14th/15th century C.E. built a pillared mantapa in front of this bas-relief, killing forever the cascade effect. In fact, with the pillared mantapa in front, the sculptures are no longer an open-air bas-relief, which is now merely called the Krishna Mantapa. In a sense it amounts to vandalism. Says Sivaramamurti: “Vandalism has not caused much damage, except for the later Vaishnavite mark incised on the forehead of the couchant bull and the erection of the modern pillared hall which destroys the view of the original façade.”

...

Leo_r

January 12th, 2011, 11:41 AM

India, largely a country of immigrants..

If North America is predominantly made up of new immigrants, India is largely a country of old immigrants, which explains its tremendous diversity. It follows that tolerance and equal respect for all communities and sects are an absolute imperative if we wish to keep India united. If it was believed at one time that Dravidians were the original inhabitants of India, that view has since been considerably modified. Now the generally accepted belief is that the pre-Dravidian aborigines, that is, the ancestors of the present tribals or Adivasis (Scheduled Tribes), were the original inhabitants. This is the thesis put forward in a judgment delivered on January 5, 2011 by a Supreme Court of India Bench comprising Justice Markandey Katju and Justice Gyan Sudha Misra . This historical disquisition came in Criminal Appeal No. 11 of 2011, arising out of Special Leave Petition No. 10367 of 2010 in Kailas & Others versus State of Maharashtra TR. Taluka P.S ....

http://www.hindu.com/2011/01/12/stories/2011011253071300.htm

isham_9626

February 1st, 2011, 04:02 PM

old name of Tiruchirappalli during British raj!!!

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7994/dsc00218vk.jpg

Pic clicked at Trichy Fort Railway Station.

krishnaswamy

February 1st, 2011, 06:32 PM

old name of Tiruchirappalli during British raj!!!

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7994/dsc00218vk.jpg

Pic clicked at Trichy Fort Railway Station.
yea, people around TPJ and TJ used to call it as "trichinopoly' only.
My father also used to say like this for a very long time

wlbkng

February 11th, 2011, 01:50 PM

old name of Tiruchirappalli during British raj!!!

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7994/dsc00218vk.jpg

Pic clicked at Trichy Fort Railway Station.

They might preserve this in museum to make sure it remains intact and also will be nostalgic to many senior people and a recap of history lesson for younger generations.

wlbkng

February 11th, 2011, 01:53 PM

Pallava history in stone

CHENNAI: It was like being in a time warp, as history in stone was bought alive at the two-day national seminar on Pallava Temples with Nayaka Additions in the Chennai Region - A Historical Survey by the Department of Ancient History and Archaeology, at the University of Madras on Tuesday.

Ever imagined a temple for Shiva in Quanzhou, China? The paper presented by Dr T Ganesan shares this intresting insight, In 720 AD, Chinese King Kai Yuan requested Pallava king Narasimha II to station a Pallava army at Tibet as a goodwill army and this continuous goodwill resulted in the Shiva temple.

Another paper, by Dr S Kuppusamy, dealt with how Pallava temples have contritbuted to the development of Tamil society. The history of dance forms and paintings in Pallava period was the other stimulating reading.

Pallavas were the pioneers in introducing stone as the medium for the errection of temples of their faith and choices. This trend was continued by the Chola, Pandya, Vijayanagara dynasties, who created grandeur temple complexes.

Dr J Soundararajan, seminar dirctor, said, “The Pallava monuments present a strange spectrum with original monuments dating back to the 7-8 century and later additions of the 16- 18 century. In this seminar through paper presentations, academically we have made efforts to specify which part of the temple belongs to which historical saga and thereby highlighting the contributions of the Nayakas to temple archietecture and sculptural art.”

Dr R Christodas Gandhi, Managing Director Development Commissioner, TamilNadu Energy Development Agency, said, “ Translate and publish all the stone tablets, inscriptions so that the public know the real history of the people.”

http://expressbuzz.com/cities/chennai/pallava-history-in-stone/247014.html

satishanu

February 11th, 2011, 05:50 PM

Cross posting from TN chaibar. Thanks to nonamio.

Nice aerial of Tanjore Big temple.

Part-1
S8U_Lx52WGs

Part-2
cj-CdMdxblY

Part-3
kZ9wLqFFusA

Part-4
fxZOIg3y5KE

tokavin

February 13th, 2011, 02:13 PM

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5260/5441487304_046253dca8_b.jpg

Copyright : Nasa / Myself (It was taken from a Nasa Film)

Gansan

February 14th, 2011, 08:31 AM

@gnams

I agree. In the language diagram, can anyone point out where the Sangam period falls? Because Tamil literature dates back to this period, which is agreed as at least 2000 years. The literature for this entire period is called as tamil literature only. So, is this so called proto-tamil even older, or should we call Sangam literature itself as proto-tamil literature?

Marathaman

February 14th, 2011, 01:49 PM

I think Proto-Tamil can be dated to around < 300 BC, after which the first Old Tamil inscriptions appear (around 250 BCE) in a modified form of Southern Brahmi script.

All the other linguistic reconstructions like Proto-Tamil-Kannada are well before the literary period. Proto-Tamil-Kannada is supposed to have branched into Proto-Tamil-xyz and Proto-Kannada around 2000 BCE.

wlbkng

March 4th, 2011, 12:49 AM

That Chennai's outskirts are an archeological goldmine has been demonstrated once again after a team of young archeologists recently unearthed rare objects dating between the early Christian era and the later Pallava period. The site is located at Arpakkam village, some 85 kms south of Chennai, in Kancheepuram.

A 13-member that included ten final year post graduate students from the Department of Ancient History and Archeology of the University of Madras unearthed these finds in a month-long dig. The team chose Arpakkam as it is mentioned in ancient literature, team members said. Inscriptions on the walls of three ancient temples indicated the historicity of the site. "Besides, Arpakkam lies on the fringe of a mound where we had found remains of megalith burials," said assistant technical officer of the department, N Ranganathan, who is also a draughtsman.

The finds include a rare granite statue of the jyeshta' (elder in Sanskrit) sister of the goddess of wealth accompanied by two children, one on each side. The statue featuring a buffalo head band is typical of the early Pallava period, said Professor M Seran, technical officer of the department. The statue was found abandoned near a thorn bush. Seran hypothesized that the elder sister of a goddess was probably considered inauspicious and, therefore, the jyeshta statue merited less attention. Seran, acoompanied by two faculty members, led the team.

The excavation is an annual programme conducted by the department to expose students to practical knowledge and the challenges they will encounter on the field. So far, the department has conducted 17 such exercises since the programme was initiated in 1963.

While the programme was funded by a Rs 70,000 university grant, Arpakkam vilagers did their bit by arranging accommodation and food for the team.

After identifying the site, a trench was laid and instructions given to students on how to do the excavation. The students were able to identify more than 50 rare objects, both small and big, including beads, bangles, seals, and ornaments made up of semi-precious stones including quartz. The stones were used by the affluent classes of the Pallava kingdom and the early Christian era.

Other interesting finds include a floor polishing stone and black and red ware sherds. The pottery sherds feature a unique design of shoulders with engravings of loops and leaves. The hind limb of a terracota elephant, a broken vessel stand, a hopscotch marker - used by children to play games - also stood out among the finds.

But, perhaps, the most striking find for the archaeologists was the foundation layer laid for a small room. The room was divided into two. The layer was made of river sand. This style can be found in Tanjore big temple, Seran said. But the building techniques used in Tanjore were far advanced, he noted.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/History-unearthed-on-citys-fringes/articleshow/7623604.cms#ixzz1FZythCgU

satishanu

March 5th, 2011, 01:50 AM

Whether they became part of the South Indian Railway or not, the small ‘private’ railway lines in the South appear to be a part of the memory of many a reader as separate service providers and they continue to update me on this.

‘Reader T.A.D Sami’ writes that there was a line that was owned by the Tanjore District Board from Vedaranyam to Point Calimere and it was also taken over by the SIR. The compensation the Board received, he adds, was used for charities. A Chatram Development Board with full fledged officers — a Chatram Tahsildar, Chatram Revenue Inspector etc. — was set up. The Chatrams at Tanjore and Rajamadan were maintained by the Board for many years.

Reader A. Sitaraman reminds me of the light railway whose route was Kayalpattinam-Tiruchendur-Kulasekarapatnam. Parry & Co. owned this line, which was a great service to the coastal villages. Before World War II, Parry’s wanted to close the line. Neither did the Tinnevely District Board want to buy it nor were banks willing to help persons interested in buying it and running the service. Ultimately, the line was closed and dismantled.

Following the trail of what was known as the Kulasekarapatnam Light Railway (KLR), I discovered that Parry’s had, at one time, wanted to buy the lines of the Tanjore District Board. Parry’s KLR, on the other hand, was little more than a tramline established to carry jaggery to the company’s factory in Kulasekarapatnam which had been set up in the early 1900s. The SIR persuaded Parry’s to extend the line northwards to Tiruchendur, and the service operated from 1915 to 1940, even after the factory had closed in 1926.

In 1940, Parry’s made the line a part of its war effort, digging up the track and gifting the steel to the Government. But whether the line went still further north from Tiruchendur to Kayalpattinam, I have not been able to verify.

src: http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mp/2008/08/04/stories/2008080450830500.htm

^Quite fascinating!!

Leo_r

March 25th, 2011, 09:21 AM

Acheulian stone tools discovered near Chennai.....

Used by hominins about 1.51 million years ago; older than those found in Europe !!!

http://www.hindu.com/2011/03/25/stories/2011032564021300.htm

mdu_giri

April 14th, 2011, 09:44 AM

Nice thread started by Arul Murugan! I'ill also try to contribute.

mdu_giri

April 15th, 2011, 09:19 AM

Tamilnadu history started from the submerged lemuria continent with Thenmadurai as capital.This region was called pandaya nadu(old country) or pandyan nadu.We lost of lot tamil literature works when the entire land was destroyed during Tsunami.This was the period of Sangam period I.

Then Kapadapuram was made capital.The original name of kapadapuram must be a different one because word 'puram' is not very native of authentic tamil.During the same period chola kingdom was there in the north with Arikkamedu as capital.Again Arikkamedu is an archeological site near present cuddalore..The original old name is not known.This was the sangam period II.

Then after the second Tsunami Arikkamedu and Kapadapuram went inside sea and the present madurai was made as captial for pandyan kingdom and puhar was made as capital for cholas.This was the sangam period III.

Known history of India starts from 600BC with mauriya dynasty in north and chera ,chola ,pandya kngdoms in the south.Before 550BC there was no religion in tamilnadu or existed in tamil literature.They must have worshiped a goddess called Anangu.After the birth of buddism and jainism during 550BC in north it was spread by north kings like Ashoka around 300 BC.

Buddhism was spread by language pali and Jainism was spread by prakrut.Both the religion was somewhat similar and rebirth concepts were introduced.Buddhism was fast accepted by many kings and country like china,ceylon,etc.Jainism was accepted by pandyan kings.We can see the impact of both religions in laterpart of pathinenmelkanakku and pathinenkilkanaku works.Kacci (Kanchipuram) was the main center for developing the the religions and Madurai was the main center for developing language.Sanskrit and Hinduism was spread later.The kings in kanchipuram followed all the three languages Prakrut,Tamil and sanskrit.Anyway Pali did not have much impact on tamilnadu or tamil language.Hinduism was split in different form based on gods tirumal(vishnu),murugan and sivan.Many old tamil literature during this period had kadavul vaalthu.Jain god was called Arugan.

So during 300BC-1AD major cities were
Korkai(near tuticorin) -port city of pandian
Nagapatinam(original name was different)-port city of chola
Kacci(kanchipuram)-important cultural center
Madurai-capital city of pandyan
Karuvur-capital city of chera
Thagadur-capital city of thondai nadu
puhar-port city of chola
Urayur-capital city of chola
Kottar(near nagercoil)-A big town in pandya nadu.

After 100 AD Tamil kingdom lost their fame and kachipuram based kingdoms dominated and the religions Jainism and Hinduism was spread in fast manner and there was a huge impact on tamil language also.Madurai which was a stronghold of Buddhism was converted to Jainism..Lot of prakrut and sanskrit words were mixed with tamil language.You can see lot of jain caves in and around madurai now also.The major cities in 100AD were
Nagapatinam(different name may be cholamandalam which was called coramandel afterwards)
Kaccivaram
Korkai
Puhar
madurai
urayur
karuvur
kottar.
I'll post the relevant map indicating these cities.

During 300AD-400AD Third Tsunami hit tamilnadu and city of puhar went inside sea.This is confirmed by chilapathikaram.May be korakai also destroyed.

Since tamil language started destroying a dravida sangam was established in 450-470AD in Madurai .All the pathinenkilkanku works were consolidated.

After 550AD MAdurai was recaptured by pandyan and pallavas established in Kanchipuram.Now the names of kings shows the impact of prakrut and sanskrit.like kulasekara,arikesi, etc.(Original names were in authentic tamil like cheliyan,nediyon etc.)Sri and siri are different,'Sri' is sanskirt. 'Siri 'may be prakrut or pali.Because srilanka which is a Buddhist country call it sirilanka.
During time kachipuram and chola kingdom converted to hindusm.During 7th century Chola kings built lot of Temples around their capital palayarai(near kumbakonam).During that time pandyas were still with jainism.We know one hindu saint (sampanthar)who changed a pandyan king from jain to hindu.

After 848AD THanjavur was made as capital of chola and the modern era started.

Leo_r

April 21st, 2011, 11:23 AM

Warrior tribe of Kosars have been cited in ancient Tamil Sangam literatures. Kosars are described as a honest warrior tribe who were known as ‘one word kosars’(“Onrumoli Kosar” in Tamil) because they always kept their words (promises).
Many of these refer to Kosar heroes of ancient Tulunadu, whereas others suggest that they were nomadic tribes that lived in different parts of south India, for example Nalkur Kosars who lived in four different villages or divergent places. Wayfarer in his blog has made a decent documentation of distribution of known Khosa tribes. The ancient tribe were variously known as Khosa or Kosar, Kossar or Khasa.

Sangam literature

In Tamil literature, Kosars were mentioned as west Vadukas with their origin as Kolhapur near Goa. ‘Erattar’ were supposedly a branch of Kosars who became Maha Rattirar (Prakrit) or Maharashtras (Sanskrit).

Kongu army consisted of Kosars according to Silappadikkaram. The Akananooru (15, 2-7 )records: “Thokai Kavin Thulu nattu anna Varunkai Vampalaith Thankum panpin Cherintha Seri Chemmal Moothur”. Meaning, they then captured Kudaku Nadu and Erumai Nadu and settled in Tulu Nadu with Moothur as their capital. Krishnasami Aiyangar opines that the ‘Nalur Kosar ‘(meaning Kosars who settled in four places) as foreigners to the Tamil country.

In some Tamil accounts, Kosars belonged to the Tulu country and lived to the south of the Vindhya and near the shores of western Arabian Sea. They were also referred to as ‘Ariyar’ in Tamil literature.

Kosars have been recorded as tribal people who lived near the rivers Malprabha, Gatprabha and upper the border area between Kadamba and Mauryan empire. They attacked Paazhi and captured the whole of Kadamba and its many fort cities. Then the Mauryans and their Kosar affliates entered Tamil Nadu through the kaviri-kudhirai malai pass (the present anthiyur-nallur path).

The Boar (Varaha?) was the emblem of Kosar tribes and the later Chalukyas of the Pallava time. Varaha was also the logo of the Vijayanagar empire.

Kosars were called Nar kosar or Nanmozhi Kosar in the third Sangam literature. Nannul or Tholkappiam notes them as Kannadam, Vaduku (Tulu), Kalingam (Oriya) and Telugu people. Kambaramayanam Payiram says Kosars were Vadakalai (Prakrit), Thenkalai (Tamil), Vaduku and Kannada people. Kosars were truthful to their kings, either Tamil kings or Mauryan kings and were called ‘Vai-mozhi Kosar’ (truthful in keeping their words).
The Mathurai Kanchi 508-09 & 771-74 records them as “Poyya Nallisai Niruththa punaithar, Perum peyar Maaran Thalaivan Aka, Kadanthadu vai val Elampal Kosar, Eyaneri Marabin Vai mozhi ketpa” and “Pazhayan Mokoor Avayakam vilanka Nanmozhi Kosar Thontri yanna”. Meaning, Chera dynasty’s Nedunchezhian’s army head was ‘Mohoor Pazhayan Maaran’ and in his army, Kosars were present. They followed Maran’s words in battle and were honoured for their job in his court. ‘Elampal Kosar’ (young Kosars) were present in the armies of the Cheras.
The District Gazetteer of South Kanara (1973) enlists Koosa as a Scheduled Caste tribe. This Koosa tribe is being speculated by tulu-research.blogspot.com as the Kosar tribes of Karavali described in the Tamil Sangam literature.
Koosa, Kusha

The Twin sons of Rama (in Ramayan, composed by Valmiki ca 500 BC) were named Lava and ‘Kusha’.This shows the antiquity of the proper name Kusha in India. ‘Koosa’ tribes still exist in northern parts of Udupi districts. Kosanna, Koosakka etc are common names among Tulu people in the yesteryears.

‘Kosala’ an ancient Kingdom of Ramayan fame has been suggested as land of Kosa by Joseph Thangarajah Xavier. Rama’s mother ‘Kausalya’ hailed from the kingdom of Kosala.

http://tulu-research.blogspot.com/2011/04/272-kosar-tribes.html

satchitananda

April 21st, 2011, 04:42 PM

KumariKandam is part of Tamil literature (and history??). It is a blend of various degrees of myths, legends, (reality?). I want folks to post serious evidence based discussion - literature (pref. proper quotes), any archeaological evidence of any landmass below Kanyakumari..

Please refrain from pure opinionated ideas, as my desire is to make this thread a one stop place about KumariKandam. (Disclaimer: I am not saying if this was real or legendary.. )

kongutamizhan

April 21st, 2011, 05:21 PM

^^ Also referred to as Lemouria. It's hard to find any hard evidence (rocks, scripts and likes) because it's supposed to have submerged around 16000 - 18000 BC (if existed). One credible evidence that you could argue is the vague reference of the land gobbled by sea from the texts of Silapathigaram. The texts however doesn't name the land as Kumari Kandam however few researchers claim that the territory mentioned was Kumari Kandam.

And whether you like it or not this discussion will invariably lead to AIT and divert from there :) Till few years back Iravadham Mahadevan used to be active in few social groups and was available to answer queries over email. I don't think that he reponds to mails anymore. If you need expert opinion that doesn't lead to unwanted debates try commenting on his facebook page and see if he responds. (and yeah post it here for our knowledge too...)

Trichy_Arun

April 21st, 2011, 05:42 PM

Nice thread started by Arul Murugan! I'ill also try to contribute.

Thanks Arul for starting this thread.

spidermanusa

April 27th, 2011, 08:51 AM

Can anyone identify this?

௲௨௱௨௰௧

Arul Murugan

April 27th, 2011, 10:39 AM

^^

It will be hard to find, please explain.

^^ Also referred to as Lemouria. It's hard to find any hard evidence (rocks, scripts and likes) because it's supposed to have submerged around 16000 - 18000 BC (if existed). One credible evidence that you could argue is the vague reference of the land gobbled by sea from the texts of Silapathigaram. The texts however doesn't name the land as Kumari Kandam however few researchers claim that the territory mentioned was Kumari Kandam.

And whether you like it or not this discussion will invariably lead to AIT and divert from there :) Till few years back Iravadham Mahadevan used to be active in few social groups and was available to answer queries over email. I don't think that he reponds to mails anymore. If you need expert opinion that doesn't lead to unwanted debates try commenting on his facebook page and see if he responds. (and yeah post it here for our knowledge too...)

Does it not appears in Tholkappiyam too which is the oldest text for TN?

Arul Murugan

April 27th, 2011, 10:41 AM

Lemuria and Kumari Kandam

We are all aware that the origin of the Tamil people and their culture is shrouded in deep mystery. Though there are many traditions narrated in early literature, “Kumari Kandam”, the land that lay to the south of India and, which later submerged in the Indian Ocean, has been a matter of conjecture for a study by scholars.

Two American eminent geologists McKenzie and Sclater have clearly explained that Africa and South America were locked together as part of the primitive continent until about 200 million years ago.

The present formations of India, Arabia, Africa, Antarctica, South America and Australia started breaking up due to natural upheavals and moving to different parts of the earth at the rate of 15,000 years per mile on an average and found their places in the Asian Continent. The movement of the earth mass, called Navalam Theevu in Tamil, caused the formation of the present continent of India.

There was a general belief that both Lemuria and Kumari Kandam were one and the same. However, it has been established by Frank Joseph, Secretary for Ancient American Association, in his book “The Lost Civilization of Lemuria”, the existence of a land called Lemuria, one of the world's oldest civilizations, about 2.5 lakh years ago, in Indonesia. Hence, Lemuria and Kumari Kandam, which existed in southern part of India, are different lands.

Mr. Joseph has also established that the Mohenjodaro letters of Eastern Islands are nearly 1,00,000 years old. He has critically examined the views of various scholars and established the source of Mohenjodaro letters as well as the ancient civilization of Moo and has written that due to natural calamities, the island of Moo was destroyed about 2.5 lakh years ago.

Eastern Island, 1,000 miles near Japan, has a script called Rongo Rongo and it is identical with Mohenjodaro letters. This has been fixed as 1,00,000 years old.

From the Island of Moo called Lemuria, which was located near Indonesia about 2.5 lakhs years ago, people regularly moved out to Atlantis in Mexican Sea and Kumari Kandam in South Tamil Nadu, about 1,00,000 years ago due to tsunami. These letters are the script of Moo civilization, which was well developed.

From Atlantis, due to tsunami, the Moo people moved to South America and became Aztecs and Incas. Those who moved to North America became Mexicans and Red Indians.

From Kumari Kandam, South of Tamil Nadu, about 15,000 years ago people moved to Africa and became Sumerians and those who moved from Africa to Arabia later became Jews.

From Kumari Kandam, South of Tamil Nadu due to tsunami, people moved to Bengal and became Cholas and those who moved to Sind and Punjab became Cheras.

In Sillapathikaram, it was mentioned that one “Ezhuthanga Nadu” (7x7 =49 countries) existed. So, Southern Tamil Nadu and Kumari Kandam are different regions. Those who have moved to Southern Tamil Nadu were called Pandiyas and they spread over Ceylon and Tirunelvelli.

Tamil literatures say that during the Kurukshethra war, Chera Kings had given food to both the armies. From all these we come to a conclusion that the Ancient South India would have been with tall cliffs, dense forests with high fertility.

Because of a calamity, which took place in 9,000 BC, a terrific destruction occurred and destroyed Chera, Chola and Pandiya Kingdoms and they all then came and settled in South India. The great scholar Sri Avvai Duraisamy Pillai has established that the “Pancha Dravidam” is the region consisting Gujarath, Maharashtra, Andhra, Kerala, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu.

This is the time to write the correct history of Tamil Nadu. In “Irayanar Agapporul” (Nakkeerar Urai) it is mentioned that 72 Pandiya Kings had ruled Tamil Nadu (which was inclusive of the destroyed Kumari Kandam) from 30,000 B.C. to 16,000 B.C. (i.e. for 14,000 years).

Our universities have to undertake the responsibility to arrive at the correct history of Tamil Nadu.

Research has not been done so far to assess correctly the shape and appearance of Tamil letters. Today in Tamil, three ‘La', two ‘Ra' and three ‘Na' exist. These exist in ‘Grantha' also. But in ‘Naagari', which got birth in 500 A.C., there are only one ‘La', one ‘Ra', and two ‘Na'.

M. Sundarraj, retired Financial Controller of Integral Coach Factory, who did extensive research on Rig Vedas, has written a book titled “Rig Vedic Studies”. He has explained that our Rig Vedic Mythology is the ancient one in the world. The Rig Vedic Myths are symbolic expressions of astronomical phenomena, both of lunar asterisms and solar movements.

The Rig Veda calendar was essentially a luni-solar one, the lunar aspects being considered as important for holy purposes, but the solar movements which determined the seasons, were also of importance to Rig Vedic people.

The Rig Veda has already adopted a system of grouping together the stars in the lunar zodiac in the pictorial form, such as that of a bull, scorpion, eagle etc.

The origin of the concept of constellational groupings in pictorial forms can be traced in Rig Veda.

According to N.P.Ramadurai, an astronomy researcher, the cycle of time referring to 24,320 human years is mentioned in the Rig Veda at about 50 places. But to read Rig Veda, ‘Grantha' is essential.

Also to read and grasp clearly our ‘Sangam literature' ‘Grantha' knowledge is necessary. If we thoughtfully and magnanimously accept that our old Tamil letters are ‘Grantha' letters, it will pave the way to realise our ancient civilization.

Also, to read philosophy, art, sculpture, medicine etc., ‘Grantha' will be useful. It is necessary at this stage to do intensive research on the Mohenjodaro letters and our ancient languages, Sanskrit and Tamil, and, other Indian languages, to ascertain as to how the script changed over a time and new languages evolved.

In India, Tamil and Sankrit are the oldest languages and both are origin of other languages. This fact is proved by Vedas and our Tamil Sangam Literature. Great Saint Arunagiri Nadhar says in his Thirupugazh that Tamil has 51 ‘Atcharams'. Similarly, the total number of ‘Grantha' letters is 51.

To get back the history of more than three lakh years in the past, Saptharishi calendar only will be able to provide proper and genuine assistance.

We have been able to fix the dates of history from 25th Chathur Yuga to 28th Chathur Yuga. Saptharishi Mandala has played an important role in almost all the ancient civilization of the world. It is the pivotal point of all astronomical calculations and observations.

N.P.Ramadurai, with my assistance, has found and established that the Saptha Rishi Mandala takes only 2,187 years to make one complete circle through all the 27 asterisms.

He was able to establish that Chathur Yuga comprises only 12,160 years.

I conclude with a request to all the great Tamil scholars, eminent astronomers and mathematical experts to join together in this noble research to establish the glory of Tamil language and Tamil race to the whole world.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/article482101.ece

Arul Murugan

April 27th, 2011, 10:44 AM

spidermanusa

April 27th, 2011, 12:01 PM

^^

It will be hard to find, please explain.

I'll give the others a day or two. Someone may know.

Vicvin86

April 27th, 2011, 12:10 PM

Can anyone identify this?

௲௨௱௨௰௧

1,221

Mad 4 Madras

April 27th, 2011, 01:13 PM

^^ You are right, its 1221
This site (http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/tamil/) may help

Arul Murugan

April 27th, 2011, 04:11 PM

I'll give the others a day or two. Someone may know.

1,221

௧௨௨௧ this is what i got from normal sites used for tamil transliteration.

satchitananda

April 27th, 2011, 04:13 PM

Should we go with a separate thread in history folder like Vedic Civilization thread?

Based on your own posts, the vedic civilization (IVC) and the history of TN seem to be intertwined in the past. So we can assume such discussions here itself. Also I see there is thread hosted by skganji on IVC.

For folks interested - I dug up a link of the book mentioned

Frank Joseph “The Lost Civilization of Lemuria” (http://books.google.com/books?id=9tCybZagbqkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Frank+Joseph+%E2%80%9CThe+Lost+Civilization+of+Lemuria%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=kNYLRYQHCS&sig=vCOaqfYy475ut8rs9QoMbkxn9Dg&hl=en&ei=QiO4Te6BFZ2TtgfYpaSBDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)

spidermanusa

April 27th, 2011, 04:15 PM

^^ You are right, its 1221
This site (http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/tamil/) may help

That is the site I got it from. Interesting to read about those Tamil numerals.

Vicvin86

April 27th, 2011, 04:21 PM

௧௨௨௧ this is what i got from normal sites used for tamil transliteration.

That if 1221 is written separately as 1 2 2 1. Since Tamil has separate letters for 10, 100 and 1000 like roman numbers it is ௲௨௱௨௰௧

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_language#Numerals_and_symbols
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3106142/Tamil-Numbers
http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/tamil/

Mr.Nellai

May 24th, 2011, 12:38 AM

Rare coins found in Nellai district

a8qQrit4Cs4

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 10:32 AM

Few posts to give a different viewpoint

From peopling of india by michael danino

From a structuralist perspective, there is probably no queerer theory than that of an invasion of India by Aryans or Indo-Aryans in the second millennium BC. In its nineteenth-century version, it posited a subcontinent peopled by undefined autochthons (or, the earliest known inhabitants) was suddenly submerged, in its northern parts at least, by a wave or several waves of Aryan invaders on the warpath. This view, with numerous variants, generally held until the 1960s, when US and Indian archaeologists began pointing out that such a phenomenon could hardly have taken place without leaving some traces in the archaeological record, which not only stubbornly refused to yield such evidence at site after site, but increasingly stressed continuity rather than disruption. The Hollywood-style Aryan Long March soon mutated into a leisurely stroll into India by bands of peaceful migrants in search of greener pastures.

But one central question remained: whether an invasion or a migration—and leaving aside here its assumed linguistic and cultural impact—not radically alter India’s demographic landscape? The answer, clearly, could only be a matter of proportion. Either the newcomers arrived in large numbers, or they just “trickled in,” yet somehow managed to trigger off a chain reaction, perhaps like the proverbial butterfly setting off a distant hurricane, in the spirit of chaos theory. Most proponents of the invasionist or migrationist scenario continued to prefer the former view, insisting that “the Indo-Aryan immigrants seem to have been numerous and strong enough to continue and disseminate much of their culture.”[1] Those who, of late, have tried to trim down the numbers of Aryan tribes to the barest minimum[2] have been compelled to do so by two formidable obstacles: the archaeological stumbling block and the growing objections raised from the 1990s by geneticists studying Indian populations, whose voice uncannily sounded like that of archaeologists.

Initially, a few genetic studies appeared to confirm the arrival of a new population from Central Asia, matching the linguistic division between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers.[3] But they were victims of the usual circularity, a priori accepting the invasionist scenario, then matching a limited strand of genetic evidence to it. As the samples studied grew larger and more diverse, and as the tools of the young science became more refined, startling new results have emerged in the last few years.

Basics of Genetic Studies

Before we briefly review those relevant to the invasion debate,[4] let us refresh our memories. To study the ancestry of human populations, geneticists look at two types of DNA: the Y-DNA, contained in the Y-chromosome of the cell’s nucleus and transmitted from father to son; and the mtDNA or mitochondrial DNA, found in the cell’s mitochondria and transmitted by the mother alone. DNA molecules undergo slight alterations or “mutations” in the course of time, which act as specific genetic markers: thus two persons sharing an mtDNA with the same mutation must share a common ancestor somewhere in the maternal line. Those genetic markers are then grouped in categories called “haplotypes,” which are in turn organised in “haplogroups,” each of which genetically identifies a particular ethnic group. Within such a framework, “genetic distances” between several populations can be assessed, but it is important to remember that haplogroups have nothing to do with the old racial classifications, which have no scientific validity whatsoever: it is impossible to genetically define an “Aryan” race or a Dravidian one.

Chief Findings

In India’s case, genetic studies are specially complex, not only because of entrenched prejudices on racial or linguistic divisions (and the consequent temptation to equate linguistic groups with ethnic ones), but because of the high genetic diversity of the subcontinent, next only to that of Africa. Yet a few important by-products have emerged from a dozen studies conducted by teams of biologists in Western and Indian Universities:[5]
■One study concluded that “high castes share more than 80 percent of their maternal lineages with the lower castes and tribals” and some biologists now speak of a “caste-tribe continuum.” Another study found that “the Indian mtDNA tree in general is not subdivided according to linguistic (Indo-European, Dravidian) or caste affiliations.” In other words, geography, not caste or language, tends to define Indian genetic groups, an important conclusion that runs counter to the invasionist scenario.
■It is worth stressing that “caste populations of ‘north’ and ‘south’ India are not particularly more closely related to each other than they are to the tribal groups.” For instance, “Southern castes and tribals are very similar to each other in their Y-chromosomal haplogroup compositions.” Again, a 2009 study found Brahmins and the caste system to be of “autochthonous origin.”
■Also, studies found linguistic families to be “all much younger” than genetic lineages, and it would be “highly speculative,” at this stage to assume that a “linguistically defined group in India should be considered more ‘autochthonous’ than any other.” This knocks the bottom out of the notion of adivasi propounded by the now discredited nineteenth-century racial anthropology—and still in use in India today despite its lack of scientific validity.
■Even with India’s genetic diversity, its populations, whatever their linguistic areas or castes, share a “fundamental genomic unity” traceable to the original peopling of India by migrants from Africa some 50,000 years ago.
■Quite a few Indian populations (including tribal ones and Dravidian speakers) exhibit some connection with Central Asian populations; however, this connection turns out to date back to the migration from Africa, not to the second millennium BC.
■Indeed the “deep, common ancestry between the two regions” (India and Central Asia) is more readily explained by northward migrations from India’s Northwest some 40,000 years ago.

Invisible Aryans

The conclusion is inescapable: just as the putative Aryan invasion/migration left no trace in Indian literature, in the archaeological and the anthropological record, it is invisible at the genetic level. If biologists had never been told anything about such a migration, they would be incapable of inferring it from the DNA of Indians, whether tribes or upper castes, from the South or North.

We can now view almost all Indian ethnic groups (except for known recent immigrants, in the North-East for instance) as essentially indigenous. Of course we are all ultimately descendants from Africans, but a period of at least 40,000 years should suffice to earn the label “indigenous.” Moreover, we may jocularly suggest that all non-African populations are basically descendants from Indians. As one study put it, “there are now enough reasons not only to question a ‘recent Indo-Aryan invasion’ into India some 4000 years ago, but alternatively to consider India as a part of the common gene pool ancestral to the diversity of human maternal lineages in Europe.

We must patiently await more advanced studies with larger samples and finer analytic methods. But the genetic wind seems to have turned for good, just as the archaeological wind did some forty years ago. If Indo-Aryans ever migrated to India, they only “trickled in.” But how could such small numbers revolutionise India’s cultural and linguistic landscape? That is another of the many paradoxes on which the invasionist scenario rests, ever more shakily.

http://pragati.nationalinterest.in/2009/06/the-peopling-of-india/

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 10:35 AM

Please visit the map of journey of man from bradshaw foundation. Takes you through the paths from africa and time period

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 10:38 AM

Another one from jayakrishnan.

A new paper published in Nature reveals that Indians are descendents of two genetically divergent ancient populations. One of the groups, Ancient North Indians (ANI), is closer to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans and the other, Ancient South Indians (ASI), is quite distinct from the ANI. At some unknown point in time these two groups, which don’t exist now, mixed and the rest was Indian history[1].

Before getting into the findings, it is important to to mention certain notions that prevalent today. The most prominent among them is the discredited Aryan invasion theory which has morphed into the Aryan migration/trickle-down theory. According to this theory, around the middle of the fourth millennium an “unknown disturbance” triggered a cluster of Indo-Europeans tribes in Central Asia on a trip across the continent. This group of nomadic people wandered around looking for a place where there is sun, water and grass for their cattle. They reached India, around 1500 – 1200 BCE and during the journey “forgot” about their wanderings through Central Asia, Iran and Afghanistan[2]. In the simplified version, these Indo-European speakers mixed with the native Dravidians, but 3500 years later, those divisions are still exploited by politicians.

The study finds that there are differences between caste groups and tribals and between Indo-European speakers and Dravidian speaking population, but despite those differences, they are closer to each other than to outsiders like Europeans or East Asians. This is because, after the founder event, only few external genes mixed into the Indian gene pool. Thus the Dravidian Karunanidhi and the Indo-European speaking Mallika Sherawat are genetically not much different or in simple terms: there is no Aryan-Dravidian divide.

While no divide exists, what exists is a gradient with different groups having different levels of ANI in them, including Dravidian speakers and tribals. The level of ANI varies from 39 – 71% with higher values in upper castes and Indo-European speakers.

Thus if mainland tribals and Dravidian speakers are not “pure” ASI then who are? Since ANI is closer to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans, those without this component can be considered to be pure descendents of the ancestral population which gave rise to ASI. The study found that there indeed is a group like that: the Onge people, who live in the Andamans and as per the last census there were 95 of them. The remaining one billion and change have some “foreign” gene in them, including K Veeramani.

When did the ANI originate? Other than the fact that ANI is genetically closer to Middle Easterners, Central Asians, and Europeans, what else do we know about them? Also when did the ANI-ASI mixture happen?

In paper the authors don’t give a time frame for the origin of ANI or the mixture of ANI and ASI, but speculate that the ancestral population of the ANI could have spoken proto-Indo-European. This is a bit controversial since it synchronizes events with the arrival of Aryans. But in a later press conference they pushed back on the time.

“The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,” said Thangarajan. He added, “At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India.” [Aryan-Dravidian divide a myth: Study]

This agrees with the journey of man over the past 160,000 years. But if ANI emerged 40,000 years back, they would not be speaking proto-Indo-European, but would be singing Frits Staal’s bird songs. Genetic evidence supports the fact that common ancestors of Indians and Europeans lived more than 40,000 years ago.

“We found an extensive deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split [between Europeans and Indians] is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe.” [Genetics and the Aryan Debate]

and according to another study.

“The supposed Aryan invasion of India 3,000-4,000 years before present therefore did not make a major splash in the Indian gene pool. This is especially counter-indicated by the presence of equal, though very low, frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’ – that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.” [Genetics and the Aryan Debate]

Thus Ancient North Indians emerged not during the Aryan migration but 40 millennia before that. Hence it would be hard pressed to imagine that they would wait till Max Muller and various colonials gave the go to mix with the ASI.

In the paper, the authors write, “A priority for future work should be to estimate a date for the mixture, which may be possible by studying the length of stretches of ANI ancestry in Indian samples.” That definitely should tell us what happened from the rise of ANI to present.

http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/

Visit the original link as article has links attached to sentences.

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 10:40 AM

And finally last friday open magazine came with story of our origins.

though their sample was 6 the article is basically conslusions from other papers.

Just where did our ancestors come from? Indian diversity has long been reduced by many historians to a simple story of an invasion of Aryans pushing Dravidians further south in the Subcontinent. But an analysis of the genes that Indians bear throws up enough evidence to rubbish that theory, pointing instead to a far more complex set of migrations—and perhaps reverse migrations—many millennia earlier than commonly supposed.

To get a clearer picture of our origins, Open sent DNA samples of a couple of celebrities, John Abraham and Baichung Bhutia, alongwith those of four magazine staffers to the National Geographic Deep Ancestry Project. Based on the genetic markers thus identified and other research conducted by scientists, we present a plausible map of our origins. Be prepared for some surprises

+++

‘The diversity of India is tremendous; it is obvious; it lies on the surface and anybody can see it. It concerns itself with certain mental habits and traits. There is little in common… between the Pathan of the North-West and the Tamil in the far South. Yet…there is no mistaking the impress of India on the Pathan, as this is obvious on the Tamil…The Pathan and the Tamil are two extreme examples; the others lie somewhere in between…It is fascinating to find how the Bengalis, the Marathas, the Gujaratis, the Tamils, the Andhras, the Oriyas, the Assamese, the Canarese, the Malayalis, the Sindhis, the Punjabis, the Pathans, the Kashmiris, the Rajput, and the great central block comprising the Hindustani-speaking people, have retained their peculiar characteristics…’

+++

Nehru, even in his romanticism, was only stating what every observer of India has always noticed—the tremendous diversity of people in India, not just in terms of customs and culture, but in religion, caste and appearance. The obvious question has always been: where does this diversity come from? Take, for example, caste: did the system evolve in India, or did it originate outside and become part of the country’s social structure? Were our different language groups, such as Dravidian and Indo-European, brought in by different sets of migrants? The questions are endless, and the answer to any one of them lies in the answer to the most basic question of all: where do we Indians come from? How was the Subcontinent settled?

Attempts have been made to answer these questions with evidence drawn from fields as varied as linguistics and archaeology. Despite the inroads that have been made, the question has not even come close to being answered, and even the partial answers that have been on offer have been a source of contentious debate. For one, the Aryan Invasion theory—suggesting that an invasion of Indo-Europeans displaced the original Dravidian inhabitants of north India, which found favour at one time and was later rejected and denounced—addresses only a small part of the Subcontinent’s diversity as a theory.

But results from an entirely different area of human study suggest that there may be a satisfactory answer to the question, and it lies in our genes.

For each of us, our physical characteristics are encoded in the DNA that we carry within each cell of our body. A study of our DNA (see ‘The Science of DNA Testing’) allows us to trace our ancestry. In case of men (and for women by testing their brothers or father), we can trace our line of paternal descent, our father’s father’s father’s… father, by studying the Y-chromosome; and in case of both men and women, we can trace our line of maternal descent, our mother’s mother’s mother’s… mother, by studying mitochondrial DNA.

This field, now over two decades old, has slowly been refined to the point where events in our distant ancestry can now be studied. Not only are the new answers on offer fascinating, there is also the certainty that with each passing year, they will be refined, questioned and challenged to the point where we would be able to make definitive statements about our past. One such project is National Geographic’s Deep Ancestry that is compiling data from across the world on people who want to determine their distant ancestry.

We sent six samples, four men and two women, of people from various parts of India to the National Geographic Project (NGP), and, based on the results we have obtained (see the case studies listed in the right column), we have attempted to map out a representative history of what can be said today about the peopling of India. To do so, we have not only sought elaboration from Ramasamy Pitchappan, principal investigator, India, of the NGP, we have also spoken to a leading Indian geneticist, RNK Bamezai, director of the National Centre of Applied Human Genetics (NCAHG) at Jawaharlal Nehru University and vice-chancellor of Jammu University.

Of course, having collated all this research material and inputs, the final responsibility of the interpretations made rests with Open.

ANTIQUITY OF THE INDIAN FEMALE POPULATION

Sometime between 60,000 to 90,000 years ago, humans first moved out of Africa by crossing the Red Sea. This, in all likelihood, occurred during a glacial period when the earth was at its coldest, and falling sea levels would have shrunk the distance between Africa and Asia at its narrowest to barely 11 km. Crossing into Asia, surviving on a diet rich in shellfish, these early humans who left Africa stayed close to the coast as they made their way round to South Asia.

The strongest evidence of this is offered by the study of mitochondrial DNA, which indicates the maternal line of descent (see DNA analysis of Sohini Chattopadhyay and Haima Deshpande of Open). All human beings outside Africa are descended from two female lines, termed Haplogroup M and N. It is unclear whether the two female lines evolved while humans were still in Africa or shortly after, but the available evidence suggests both lines were present in that first migration from Africa to South Asia.

DISTRIBUTION OF MITOCHONDRIAL DNA HAPLOGROUPS IN THE INDIAN POPULATION:

M – 60 per cent

N – 25 per cent

U* – 15 per cent

*A sub branch of N that is found in larger numbers in the northwest of the country

The vast majority of the Indian population carries Sohini and Haima’s Haplogroup M, whose antiquity in India dates back at least 60,000 years ago, if not more. Since mitochondrial DNA is passed down in direct line of maternal descent, this suggests that the female population of India dates directly back to that first exodus of humans from Africa.

The N Haplogroup and its sub-haplogroup U are also found in India, but show up in high frequencies largely in the Northwest. Even these groups seem to be largely of great antiquity in the Subcontinent. There seems to have been very little migration of women into the Subcontinent after the first settlers arrived here. According to Bamezai, who advises caution in saying anything more than warranted by the data, this is not so surprising: “The mobility of males was much more—raiding parties or for that matter armies on the move even today are largely male.”

THE COMPLICATED STORY OF THE INDIAN MALE POPULATION

The men who are believed to have migrated to India along with women as part of the first coastal migration from Africa are identified by the Haplogroup C. This marker is found in less than 5 per cent of the Indian population today. These migrants seem to have moved further along the coast, settling in East Asia and Australia.

DISTRIBUTION OF Y-CHROMOSOME (FOUND ONLY IN MEN) DNA HAPLOGROUPS:

H – 30 per cent

R1a1— 20 per cent

R2a — 15 per cent

L – 10 per cent

O and related markers – 10 per cent

Others – 15 per cent

In rather broad terms, it is possible to make some generalisations. H is found in greater percentage among the Austro-Asiatic tribal population, L among the Dravidian language (such as Tamil and Telugu) speaking non-tribal population, R1a1 among speakers of the Indo-European languages (such as Hindi, Punjabi and Bengali). But there is no way on this basis to distinguish any individual from another. An individual with R1a1 could as well be a tribal as an Indo-European language speaker. Nor can discrete groupings be identified in any clear-cut way. The L marker could be found in the north of the country, and H could show up among some Brahmins.

What we do know for sure is that the earliest large-scale male settlers in the Subcontinent belong to the line defined by Haplogroup F and its branch Haplogroup H (see the DNA analysis of John Abraham). Both these haplogroups are found in significant percentages in the Indian tribal population, reaching a combined percentage of well over 30. The F Haplogroup dates back to at least 45,000 years in the Subcontinent. John’s H haplogroup, which is not found anywhere else in the world in any significant proportion and has hence been termed the ‘Indian marker’, has an antiquity in the Subcontinent of at least 25,000 years. Interestingly, though, it is found among Europe’s gypsies, indicating their Indian origin.

A related line descended from Haplogroup F, termed Haplogroup L (see the DNA analysis of Sharad Raghavan), is also found in significant numbers in South India, especially Tamil Nadu among the non-tribal population. Again, this is a haplogroup rarely found outside India and has an antiquity of around 25,000 years.

Two other significant haplogroups found in the Indian population are R1a1 (see the DNA analysis of Hartosh Singh Bal) and R2a, both found deep in the line of descent that goes back to Haplogroup F. Their antiquity in India dates back 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.

Hartosh’s R1a1 is found in higher proportions in the north of India and among upper-castes, reaching a proportion of nearly 50 per cent in Punjab and over 70 per cent in such caste groups as West Bengal Brahmins. But it is also found in the South and among the tribal population, reaching a proportion of well over 25 per cent among the Chenchu tribals of Andhra. R2a mirrors the distribution of R1a1, but it has a far more evenly spread across the geography of the Subcontinent and the hierarchy of castes; in some ways, it is a pan-Indian marker, a significant marker that has not shown up in the small sample sent by Open to the NGP.

There are also an assorted number of other markers, such as the D Haplogroup (see DNA analysis of Baichung Bhutia). This haplogroup is found in large numbers in East Asia and has likely reached Sikkim from Tibet. It is also found among some northeastern tribes that bear Haplogoup O as the other important marker.

MAKING SENSE OF THE MALE LINEAGE

The first male settlers of the Indian Subcontinent would have accompanied the women, whose descendants still inhabit the Subcontinent, on the first coastal migration from Africa. They are identified by the Haplogroup C marker, found in less than 5 per cent of the Indian population. According to the NGP, the presence of both John’s and Sharad’s haplogroups (H and L) in India can be explained by two separate migrations, one from the Middle East and the other from Central Asia, both dating back some 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.

The NGP goes on to describe the first encounter between the men from the original settlement of India with those who arrived later. The genetic trail, the NGP states, ‘provides some tantalizing clues as to what may have happened when members of the Indian Clan and the [earlier settled] Coastal Clan met. The [mitochondrial DNA] of people in this region preserves evidence of the early coastal dwellers in the female lineage, but Y-chromosome frequency for the Coastal Clan is very weak—around 5 per cent in southern India, and even less frequent going farther north. These data suggest that the descendants of the Indian Clan may have mated with the women of the earlier coastal population, but that the coastal men were killed, driven off, or otherwise prevented from reproducing.’

Pitchappan elaborates, “Probably initial colonies consisting of males and females settled and expanded. In the later migrations, either the males were by themselves or they came accompanied by very few females. Local males could have resisted and could have been exterminated, while females may have been amalgamated.” He adds that other possibilities are also conceivable, such as matrilineal societies by which the incoming males could have been amalgamated: “There is some evidence to suggest that settlements in the Dravidian belt were female centric.” He points to the existence of matriarchal societies in the South, such as Kerala’s Nairs, as the survival of an older tradition.

But stories such as this are speculative at best. In the Indian context, they are reminiscent of the possibilities once cited to describe the entry of Indo-Europeans into India, the so-called Aryan Invasion theory.

The evidence so far, however, seems to suggest that the presence of both John’s and Sharad’s haplogroups in India could be well explained by an earlier arrival of the super-ancestral F haplogroup in India. In fact, it is quite likely that either the F haplogroup arrived as part of the coastal migration along with the C haplogroup, to which it is very closely related, or it evolved here in males who were part of the earlier migration. If so, it would make sense that the antiquity of a great majority of the Indian male population also goes back to the out-of-Africa coastal migration.

In fact, much of the genetic evidence seems to suggest a South Asian origin for the F haplogroup. This haplogroup and its lines of descent account for perhaps 90 per cent of the male population in the world. Contrary to received wisdom, this would imply that much of the globe outside Africa was settled by outward migrations from South Asia dating back to over 50,000 years ago. Certainly, the distant origins of the modern European population seem to lie in South Asia, emphasising the crucial importance of this region in understanding the peopling of the globe.

But beyond such speculation, which will be settled as more and more data is gathered by projects such as the NGP, the one thing that can be said with a degree of certainty is that the antiquity of both the L and H haplogroups in India suggests that a majority of the Indian male population can trace its presence in the Subcontinent back at least 20,000 years if not earlier.

THE MYTH OF THE INDO-EUROPEAN MARKER

This brings us to perhaps the most contentious of markers, Hartosh’s R1a1. The NGP states: ‘Some linguists believe that the Kurgans, nomadic horsemen roaming the steppes of southern Russia and the Ukraine, were the first to speak and spread a Proto-Indo-European language, some 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. Genetic data and the distribution of Indo-European speakers suggest the Kurgans … may have been descendents of M17 (the genetic marker that identifies the R1a1 haplogroup). Today a large concentration—around 40 per cent—of the men living from the Czech Republic across the steppes to Siberia, and south throughout Central Asia are descendants of this clan. In India, around 35 per cent of the men in Hindi-speaking populations carry the M17 marker, whereas the frequency in neighboring communities of Dravidian speakers is only about ten percent. This distribution adds weight to linguistic and archaeological evidence suggesting that a large migration from the Asian steppes into India occurred within the last 10,000 years.’

This NGP claim goes far beyond what the genetic data warrants. Says Bamezai, after looking through the NGP results published in this article, “For me as a scientist, it is necessary to be very conservative in my claims. Any broad conclusions require much more work and detailed study of not just haplogroups, but sub-haplogroups. I think the migration paths described in these cases are in question. I feel R1a1 originated here and contributed to Central Asia rather than the other way around.”

A key 2009 paper published in the Journal of Human Genetics by Bamezai and his colleagues at JNU argues this point further: ‘Many major rival models of the origin of the Hindu caste system co-exist despite extensive studies, each with associated genetic evidences. One of the major factors that has still kept the origin of the Indian caste system obscure is the unresolved question of the origin of Y-haplogroup R1a1, at times associated with a male-mediated major genetic influx from Central Asia or Eurasia, which has contributed to the higher castes in India. Y-haplogroup R1a1 has a widespread distribution and high frequency across Eurasia, Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent... To resolve these issues, we screened 621 Y-chromosomes (of Brahmins occupying the upper-most caste position and schedule castes/tribals occupying the lower-most positions)... for conclusions. A peculiar observation of the highest frequency (up to 72.22%) of Y-haplogroup R1a1 in Brahmins hinted at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste group. Further, observation of R1a1 in different tribal population groups, existence of Y-haplogroup R1a in ancestors, and extended phylogenetic analyses of the pooled dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians bearing the R1a1 haplogroup supported the autochthonous [indigenous] origin of R1a1 lineage in India and a tribal link to Indian Brahmins.’

The conclusions bear restatement. The first thing that the evidence suggests is that the origins of Hartosh’s R1a1 haplogroup lie in India. Thus, a large part of Central Asia, Southern Russia, Ukraine onwards to the Czech Republic may well be populated by a 15,000-year-old migration from India. Given the timeframe of the origins of the R1a1 haplogroup in India, it is important to note that this does not rule out a subsequent re-entry of people from Central Asia bearing this marker into India at a much later date. As further sub-lineages of Hartosh’s R1a1 are studied, it may well be possible to answer even this question.

The second part of their conclusions rests on the fact that the proportion of R1a1 in some Brahmin groups such as those of West Bengal is as high as 72 per cent. This indicates that the origins of Brahmins as a caste may well lie in the R1a1 haplogroup. But since the antiquity of the Ra1a haplogroup in tribals such as Central India’s Sahariyas is older than it is among Brahmins, it is reasonable to believe that Brahmins may not be entrants from outside but may have originated as a caste from the tribal population of this country.

It is a strong claim, one that hints at possible discoveries that may lie ahead as the genetics of the Indian population is studied in greater detail. The one conclusion, though, that is unlikely to change is the one Bamezai emphasises over and over: “Groups we seem to see as distinct have overlapping genetic signatures. In fact, two castes that may have great hostility towards each other may carry the same signatures. Caste, tribe and religion in India do not have any genetic basis.” Trite as it may sound, the conclusion is inescapable, there is unity in this diversity.

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/living/the-story-of-our-origins

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 10:43 AM

From the Frontline magazine article that appeared on apr 22 2011

The Lemuria myth by S. CHRISTOPHER JAYAKARAN

THERE is an old, persistent Tamil tradition about a land that existed south of India called Kumari kandam (continent), a belief that is linked to the myth of the lost land of Lemuria, a figment of Western imagination. Accounts of the lost continent vary, but the common theme is that a large area went under the ocean as a result of geological cataclysms, a theory that geologists of today do not subscribe to.

The last Ice Age had a profound influence on the prehistory of humankind. So in prehistoric studies of coastal areas, it is crucial to understand the consequence of changes in the sea level. About 14,500 years ago, the sea level was lower by 100 metres. With subsequent global warming and melting of large masses of ice, the level started rising, in stages.

As the sea level rose, the low-lying lands in the coastal region and the exposed continental shelves were inundated. This phenomenon gave rise to the stories and legends of deluges that permeated the African, Amerindian and Australian aboriginal folklore and Greek, Roman and Hebrew legends, and the Indian puranas, which referred to pralayas. The coastal areas south of India that were submerged in ancient times evidently gave rise to the Tamil myth of the lost continent of Kumari, while myths of the lost continents of Atlantis and Lemuria were generated in the Western world.

Lemuria is the name of a mythical continent purported to have been in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. The lost continent derives its name from the primate lemur belonging to the group prosimians. Lemurs now inhabit Madagascar island, the surrounding smaller islands and Comoros island.

The term “lemur” comes from the Latin word lemures, meaning “spirits of the night”, a reference to many species of lemur that are nocturnal and so have large reflective eyes. Their distribution once extended from Pakistan to Malaya. The English geologist Philip Sclater (1864) coined the term Lemuria in his article ‘The Mammals of Madagascar'. Trying to explain the presence of fossil lemurs in Madagascar, he proposed that the Indian Ocean island and India had once been part of a larger continent, Lemuria. His theory was put forward before the concepts of continental drift and plate tectonics provided the explanations for the similarity and distribution of formations and fossils in different strata and continents.

During the 19th century, scientists frequently postulated the presence of submerged land masses in order to account for the present distribution of species. As Lemuria gained some acceptance within the scientific community, it began to appear in the works of scholars such as Ernst Heinrich Haeckel (1834-1919), a German biologist who promoted the work of Charles Darwin in Germany. Haeckel suggested that there was a land bridge that remained above water long enough to facilitate the migration of prosimians from Africa into India and the Malay peninsula.

To explain the distribution of species across Asia and the Americas, certain other scientists hypothesised that Lemuria had extended across parts of the Pacific Ocean. But advanced research and geological findings have made clear that continents did not submerge or disappear and that Lemuria never existed. The Lemuria theory disappeared from practical consideration after the scientific community accepted the theory of plate tectonics and continental drift.

Esoteric theories

However, certain occultists adopted it. In 1888, Helena Blavatsky, a founder of the Theosophical Society, incorporated the concept of the lost continents of Lemuria and Atlantis in her controversial book The Secret Doctrine. Her information, it was claimed, was based on esoteric ancient books from the east and messages received through mystical transference and clairvoyant trances.

While explaining the evolution of man, there is a subtle but conscious attempt in the book to establish the superiority of the Aryan race. Later, some members of the Theosophical Society published essays, presented in the garb of scientific writings, on Lemuria and Atlantis. Thus the myth of Lemuria was perpetuated.

According to the teachings of the Theosophical Society, human beings evolved through seven successive root races, each of which populated and occupied different continents. Lemuria was occupied by the third root race called Lemurians, who were primitive beings. Subsequently, the more advanced inhabitants of Atlantis, called Atlanteans, replaced them. Aryans, the descendants of Atlanteans, were the fifth root race and were considered the pinnacle of evolution.

W. Scott Elliot, a staunch Theosophist, published, in 1904, The Lost Lemuria with two maps showing the distribution of land areas at different periods. There is mention about Lemurians who domesticated reptiles resembling the Plesiosaurus, which places Lemurians in the era of dinosaurs, an obvious anachronism. This writing, which uses scientific terminology extensively, is basically esoteric.

In 1931, Harvey Spencer Lewis, the founder of the mystical society called the Rosicrucians, wrote on the evolution of Lemurians in his book Lemuria: the Lost Continent of the Pacific. Maps of the lost land were produced by taking the idea from the palaeo continent of Gondwana, which existed long before the advent of humanity.

The total confusion of chronology of geological epochs and a lack of understanding of the evolution of humankind is evident in the book he wrote under the pseudonym Wishar S. Cerve. He gave details of their lifestyle and advanced technology and also wrote about floating continents, such as California and the west coast of the United States, being parts of Lemuria and of their subsequent destruction. It was claimed that the survivors of Lemuria were living in Mount Shasta in northern California (F.S. Oliver, Dwellers of Two Planets, 1894) under a network of tunnels and could be seen occasionally. This belief is repeated by certain other groups and cultists.

Lost land of Tamils

The narratives about Lemuria found their way into colonial India about the time when folklore began to permeate historic knowledge as though they were fact. The writings of Wishar Cerve and the maps of Scott Elliot were brought into Tamil writings by K. Appadurai, in his book Kumari Kandam Allathu Kadal Konda Thennadu (Kumari Continent or the Submerged Southern Land, 1941). The term Lemuria found its way into certain Tamil textbooks and was given the Tamil name Kumari kandam, or continent of Kumari. Names from Tamil classics were given to the mountain ranges, rivers, places and areas. For example, the puranic geography of an axial mountain called Meru as the centre of Jambudvipa (Sanskrit) or Navalan Theevu (Tamil) was accepted, and, later on, these names were attributed to certain parts of Lemuria, giving it acceptability among Tamil readers. In the 1920s, with Tamil revivalism and the efforts to counter the “Aryan” and associated Sanskrit dominance, the concept of Lemuria was wedded to the notion of the lost land referred to in Tamil literature.

There are a few references in Tamil Sangam classics to a landmass that was swallowed up by the sea. Historians consider the first three centuries A.D. as the Sangam period. The reference to the tradition about three Tamil Sangams (assemblies or academies) is noted in Iraiyanar Kalviyalurai, attributed to Nakeerar. According to this commentary, the Pandya kings patronised Tamil poets in their capital, where the Sangam was located. According to tradition, the Mudal Sangam (first assembly), was located in Thenmadurai. When the sea swallowed Thenmadurai, the capital was shifted to Kapatapuram and the second or Idai Sangam was established. The Idai Sangam functioned until a deluge destroyed Kapatapuram. After the deluge, the Pandyas shifted their capital to the present-day Madurai where the last or Kadai Sangam was established.

Some of the important references from Tamil Sangam classics are as follows: 1) in Purananuru 9, verses 10-11 are interpreted as a reference to a Pandya king who ruled a part of the lost land where the river Pahruli flowed. 2) in Silapathigaram (Kadu Kaan Kaathai) (11:17-22) is a reference to a Pandya king who won over kingdoms in Imayam (the Himalayas) and Gangai (the Ganga) to compensate for his land lost to the deluge. Tamil scholars such as Devaneya Paavaanar consider the deluge under reference to be the one that destroyed Thenmadurai. 3) According to Adiyarku Nallar, poem 104:1-4 from Mullai Kalithogai indicates that the Pandya king resettled the survivors of the deluge in certain Chera and Chola territories. It is portrayed by certain Tamil writers that the series of deluges destroyed the Tamil civilisation and the survivors spread out and civilised other parts of the world.

The Tamil tradition about a lost land was committed to writing after the 10th century by commentators like Nakeerar in his commentary on Iraiyanar Akapporulurai. Nachinarkiniyar and Adiyarku Nallar followed him. Those who wrote the commentaries exaggerated the extent of land that was submerged by the deluges referred to in Silapathigaram and Kalithogai. According to the commentators, there were 49 countries ( nadu) in the lost land of Kumari and the distance between the river Kumari and the river Pahruli that flowed in the lost land was 700 katham, which according to one calculation is about 770 km.

The crucial question is whether the land referred to as Kumari was as large as a continent? The advocates of Kumari kandam interpreted the term nadu to mean country. In Tamil Nadu and Kerala many small towns and villages have in their names the term nadu, which basically referred to a settlement, as opposed to kadu, or forest. In the above Tamil references there is no mention of the term kandam, referring to land the size of a continent.

According to Pingala Nikandu, a lexicon of ancient words, k andam means country. In the words of the historian N. Subrahmanian (1996), “It is possible that a small area of land (to the extent of a present-day district) was lost by sea erosion and Pahruli and Kumari were parts of that territory and that the king shifted this capital to some other place. But in all probability that event occurred only in the 5th or 4th century B.C. Such erosions on a limited scale were not unknown to the southern and eastern seaboards of Tamil Nadu. If the fiction is removed from the fact, the entire romantic superstructure called the theory of the Kumari kandam will stand exposed, as non-history” ( The Tamils - Their History, Culture and Civilisation; pages 26, 27).

If the oral traditions and the subsequent writings exaggerated the size of the submerged land called Kumari, what was the background to the lost land referred to in Sangam literature?

Sea-level changes

Geology emerged as a scientific discipline in the late 19th century when both scientific and popular imagination was dominated by Biblical accounts of creation and deluges. Dramatic geological events were attributed to catastrophes like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Eventually, the understanding of phenomena such as plate tectonics, continental drift and sea floor spreading dismissed the catastrophe theories. The speculation about land bridges and lost continents faded into obscurity elsewhere in the world but not quite so in Tamil Nadu.

Since the early part of the last century major strides have been made in the geological and geophysical understanding of the earth. For instance, in 1912 Alfred Wegener, a German meteorologist, explained the concept of continental drift; in 1924, the British geologist Arthur Holmes explained that the convection current in the mantle could cause continents to drift; in 1962, the American Geologist Harry Hess pointed out that continental drift could be explained by sea-floor spreading; in 1966, the concept of sea-floor spreading was established by independent oceanographic data involving microfossils, sediments of the sea floor, measure of heat flow from the earth's interior and palaeo-magnetic and seismic studies.

Since the first oceanic sounding in 1840, the study of oceans, including their chemistry, biology, geology and physics, has advanced in the last century. Improved coring devices have enlarged our knowledge of the oceans, and deep ocean floors have been mapped by echo-soundings and ultra-sonic signals. In the 1940s, seismic methods were also used to study the ocean floor.

Evidence of former glaciations on a wide scale became overwhelmingly conclusive in the last century. During the past two million years, there have been five major glacial advances and five glacial retreats as the globe began to warm. The last of such periods is the present period known as Holocene. The last Ice Age caused the fragmented distribution of Homo sapiens, and the enormous environmental changes that took place with global warming had a profound influence on the prehistory of humankind.

Extensive studies were done to understand global warming during the interglacial periods; sediments were subjected to meticulous analyses to establish the age and palaeo-geographical conditions in many parts of the world.

For instance, about 18,000 years ago, during the time of the last Ice Age, ice sheets in the poles spread much wider and the sea level was more than 100 metres lower than it is today, exposing a large area of land along the continental shelf. Then Siberia was connected to Alaska and along this land bridge, the peopling of the Americas and migration of animals happened over a long period. At this time, the landmass of present-day Papua New Guinea, Australia and Tasmania were joined together as were the British Isles with Europe. After the last Ice Age the level of the Indian Ocean, like the rest of the oceans, fell. Sri Lanka was connected to the Indian peninsula by a landmass, which now lies under the Gulf of Mannar. In the following 8,000 years, global warming continued and large masses of ice and glaciers melted, raising sea levels in stages and inundating low-lying lands. The portion of the continental shelf of the south Indian peninsula and the land that connected it to Sri Lanka also went under water as the sea level rose.

Records of sea-level fluctuations and related climatic changes are preserved in the layered sediments of the seabed. These can be studied through data such as faunal contents and nature of sediments. Rajiv Nigam and N.H. Hashimi of the National Institute of Oceanography (NIO), Goa, have done extensive work on sea-level rise by analysing sediments for microfossils such as pollen and foraminifera to determine palaeo-climate and by dating corals from the continental shelf in the west coast of peninsular India. The team studied marine sediments to generate proxy climate records through which changes in palaeo sea levels could be deciphered.

Nigam and P.J. Henriques, also of the NIO, have developed a regional model for palaeo depth determination on the basis of percentage of foraminifera in surface sediments of the Arabian Sea. The significant results of the study on palaeo sea levels are that the sea level was lower by 100 m about 14,500 years ago and by 60 m about 10,000 years ago and that during the last 10,000 years there had been three major episodes of sea-level fluctuation. These sea-level changes had affected human settlements and peopling of the coastal areas and had left their signatures on archaeological events.

Once the status of the periodic sea-level rise was established, it was easy to decipher the configuration of the coastline, giving allowance wherever applicable to tectonic activities and deposition of silt at the confluence of rivers. The Naval Hydrographic Office, Dehra Dun, has produced hydrographic charts (INT 717071-1986 to the scale 1:10,000,000 and INT 7007706-1973 of scale 1:3,500,000) pertaining to Cape Comorin-Gulf of Mannar, where it surveyed the depth of the sea floor with echo-sounders, which measure the sea floor contours with great accuracy.

Changes in southern India

It is possible to demarcate the land lost to the sea in the south of India from postglacial inundation maps that indicate the significant changes in the coastline.

The author has prepared inundation maps on the basis of bathymetric contours and the sea-level curve for the central west coast to work out the configuration of the coastline south of India since the last Ice Age. This study shows that about 14,500 years ago the sea level was lower by approximately 100 m than the present sea level. The land between the present coast and the bathymetric contour of 100 m roughly was the land that was exposed during that time.

In other words, hypothetically, if a 100 m column of sea water were to be removed, the land that went under water would be exposed. At that time the present Gulf of Mannar was a landmass of 36,000 sq. km connecting Sri Lanka with peninsular India and the coast was wider by about 80 km to the east, south and west of present-day Cape Comorin exposing a triangular mass of 6,500 sq. km adjoining the Cape. The coastline was 25-35 km wider than the present near Cuddalore and about 25 km wider near Colombo.

Global warming

The increased rate of global warming between 12,000 and 10,000 years ago saw the sea level rise almost 50 m, inundating low-lying lands and covering a major part of the exposed continental shelf. About 10,000 years ago, the sea level was about 50 m lower than the present sea level. At that time, the land extended about 25 km south of the Cape and the coast was about 40 km broader than the present coastline along the east and the west, which exposed about 1,000 sq km of land near Cape Comorin. Rameswaram and Mannar were joined by land and the land that extended in the present-day Gulf of Mannar was a 2,500-sq km stretch marked by sedimentary formations and coral reefs.

As the research of Rajiv Nigam indicated, sea levels continued to rise and reached the present level around 6,000 years ago. This is about the time Sri Lanka evolved as an island. Between 4,000 and 3,500 years ago, heavy rains, in addition to melting of snow, also contributed to the sea level rise. It rose by a couple of metres and fell to the present level about 2,000 years ago.

It is scientifically uncontested that the earliest Homo sapiens developed in Africa 100,000 to 200,000 years ago and migrated to Europe and Asia. Genetic evidence and fossil records of early human beings indicate that they came out of Africa as early as 100,000 to 60,000 years ago. Their descendants migrated to the Far East, probably along the coastal areas adjacent to the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal around the Indian peninsula, Sri Lanka and then north into China and south into Sumatra.

As the sea levels rose, resulting in periodic flooding and deluges, prehistoric settlements that were located in the low-lying coastal lands and the exposed continental shelf were inundated. The people who lived in the coastal area of the Indian peninsula and Sri Lanka and who escaped the deluges perpetuated the oral tradition of a lost land. It is my considered opinion that it is this development that gave rise to the legend of Kumari kandam.

Want to see pics then visit the link

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2808/stories/20110422280809000.htm

satchitananda

May 31st, 2011, 03:00 PM

Good contribution Kumar. Keep more coming on this topic

kannan infratech

May 31st, 2011, 03:21 PM

My paternal uncle S.Krishnan did lots of research into Ancient Tamil and the influence of Sanskrit (lack of it). Then Madurai was in Lemuria and the present Madurai is a later day creation, it seems.

His opinion was that the English deliberately distorted the History & facts to suit their objectives and unfortnately they recorded every thing they wrote and our ancestors followed " Mouth to Ear" method and failed to keep written records.

Our Vedas & Vedhantas in Sanskrit , old Tamil literature and the Buddhist Literature (mainly in Bali language kept well in Srilanka & Thailand) - all say the same thing which is much contrary to what the English has recorded.

rsubbu.mdu

May 31st, 2011, 03:29 PM

Our Vedas & Vedhantas in Sanskrit , old Tamil literature and the Buddhist Literature (mainly in Bali language kept well in Srilanka & Thailand) - all say the same thing which is much contrary to what the English has recorded.

This book will help understand the distortions of our history by the outsiders -

Breaking India : Western Interventions In Dravidian And Dalit Faultlines-Rajiv Malhotra, Arvindan Neelakandan

Regards,
Subbu

kannan infratech

May 31st, 2011, 03:31 PM

This book will help understand the distortions of our history by the outsiders -

Breaking India : Western Interventions In Dravidian And Dalit Faultlines-Rajiv Malhotra, Arvindan Neelakandan

Regards,
Subbu

Thanks.

I will read when I find time.

kannan

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 04:04 PM

Since kannan raised this issue I am posting from another blog. She writes a lot on tamil texts and vedic texts.

The following story is today's hot news.

A person from Madurai belonging to Piramalai kallar, (a tribal clan)has been identified as belonging to the oldest (so-far identified) aborigines of Africa who lived 70,000 years ago.

It is assumed that his ancestors had migrated out of Africa and settled in Madurai long ago.

On reading this and connecting this with the inputs from old Tamil texts,

I infer that no migration had taken place,as the land at that time was huge

and connected the Indian part of the Lemuria with Australia, Africa and Malaysia.

The people who had lived in that land of Lemuria,got separated due to drifts and submersions.

From Puranic texts also we infer that human kind evolved in the South of the equator.

Daksha Prajapathi is the personification of wholesome evolution of all mankind in the South.

The Pithru loka in the South is also the symbolic indication of mankind springing up in the South or from the South.

In Surya Siddhantha, there is information about Bhadrashava in the east

which lies in the east of Malaysia. This Bhadhrashva is located presently at Japan.

Ketumala in the west refers to Kusha dweepa in the west which is Africa.

There is reference to Uttar Kuru, north of Himalayas, but no mention of what is in the South.

It means this Bharatha varsha was in the south,which is often referred to in Tamil texts as lying in the South of Himalayas.

This huge landmass contained the land of Rakshasas like Ravana

and Yakshas like Kubera. It also contained Tamils whose origin in recorded texts date back to more than 10,000 years ago.

The present Madurai had a literary history for 1850 years which started some time after the migration of Pandyas to the mainland due to submergence of Kumari kandam.

This submergence coincides with the submergence of Dwaraka after Krishna's departure. Marine archaeologists have proof of this.

It seems a rise in sea waters led to submergence at many locations around the earth.

From Sanatanic point of view this period coincides with end of a major yuga

when deluges happen.

What was experienced then was yuga-pralaya.

Before this period,Pandyans of the South had a literary history for 3,700 years.

This also came to an end by a wave of submergence.

Prior to that the Pandyans existed in further deeper south and had a literary history for 4,440 years.

It means Tamils or Pandyans had literary history for 8,000 years prior to Kali yuga, or had been known for their literary excellence from more than 13,000 years ago.

(The above duration in years is found in Irraiyanaar AgapporuL urai, supposed to have been written in 9th century AD.)

Such being the antiquity of the people in this part, it is pre-mature to say that Africans migrated to India

(on the basis of this find on a person from Kallar community.)

Instead it would be logical to explore,whether the sunken continent of Lemuria which obviously housed the Tamils and Pandyans of yore,

had a mix of people from Africa, Australia and Malaysia or whether the land of Lemuria contained these lands too.

If it is proved to be so,the migration theory would not work

but commonness of a single culture over a vast area can be vindicated.

The indicators are about the latter only!

Kallars

Kallars are said to be one among the MukkulatthOr - a group of three kulams.

MukkulatthOr consists of Kallar, Maravar and Agamudaiyaar.

Maravar is the name that one comes across very often in the old Tamil texts.

Maravars are soldiers known for their courage, valour and proficiency in warfare.

In PuranaanUru we find verses on maravars who are local chieftains

assigned with the job of protecting cattle and discouraging any adventures from enemies.

It is to be noted that stealing the cattle is the first act of aggression.

This is an aryan practice, which is also found in Tamil culture.

Stealing the cattle was done by kauravas to bring Arjuna to the open

when he was hiding in the 13th year of exile.

In Tamil lands too,"aanirai kavarthal" is the first sign of aggression by an enemy which is found as an accepted practice in "pura-th-thiNai".

The stealing of cattle happens in the the fringe areas of the kingdom

which is usually protected by a ring of forests.

The forest areas at the border of the country used to be the first line of defense.Forest tracts are known as Mullai in Tamil lands, which were inhabited

by cow-herds or aayars or yadhavas or kovalars or idaiyars.

Here comes the Kallars.

there is a word in Tamil dictionary - 'Kalla-bhoomi'.

Kalla-bhoomi is a place prepared in times of war.

It is a trap, made by digging big pits and hiding them with wastes.

They are like land mines - but without explosives.

The unsuspecting in-coming army of the enemies would fall into these traps and be caught.

It is probable to link this with the kallars. kallars are tribes of hills and forests who are skilled in detecting the presence of foreigners or even animals by their keen sense of hearing.

kallars are skilled in the use of Boomerang, which Austrialain tribes are known to use.

This goes to show the common origin or common culture shared by them

in their antiquated past in Lemuria which contained Australia and Africa too.

There is every possibility to link Kallars to the job of detecting the movement of enemies in the forest, intimating about it to the Maravars
and laying traps for the enemies.

kalla-bhoomi also means a false- land or deceptive land,a trap made to look like normal surface.

It is perhaps from this, they got their name as Kallar.

But that they are the forests dwellers is not just known from their habitat as forest but also from their worship of kallazhagar - Vishnu or Thirumaal!

The prefix to Vishnu as Kalla, a thief or a one who is fond of deceiving the co-inhabitants may be perhaps to do with the deception that Kallars carry out to trap the enemies.

Thirumaal is the Lord of forest tracts, known as mullai.

It is in Mullai that Kalla bhoomi is made.

The dictionary meaning of kallazhagar is that he is the Lord of the land of Kallars which has Azhagar malai!

This brings us to the next understanding that kallars might have been involved in raising cattle!

It is possible to relate their defense in boomerang,their sense of hearing in detecting any predator to their cattle and their simple ways of catching the enemy by traps!

This further brings in the next level of understanding that they are indeed the olden tribes who lived in the submerged Kuamri in the kingdom of Pandyas!

From Kalitthogai and PuranaanUru we know of the clan of Mullai as being thol kudi' or 'mudu-kudi' which existed in the Pandyan kingdom in the Kumari kandam.

From these texts we know that they migrated to the present day Madurai along with their king Pandyan.

How kallars are part of Mukkulatthors?

We saw the note on Maravars as per PuranaanUru.

Agamudaiyaar is not found explicitly mentioned but there is mention on AgatthOr and aga-naattudaiyOr etc.

The sub-category of the PuraththiNai, named Vuzhigjai is "agatthOn selvam" (Thol kaappiyam sutra 10)

"aga naadu" is found mentioned in 28 th vesre of PuranaanUru

which defines whatever is possessed of by a king or chief or leader.

Agam means inner.

Agamudaiyaar means those who have something in them as possession.

In Tamil texts and as per sutras, it is known that this term is used to indicate

someone who possesses vast riches.

Usually it is indicative of a king.

In the context of Mukkulatthor in having grouped the 3 clans together,

we get a different interpretation which is in accordance with their present status too.

I take into account the present status,because until a couple of generations ago almost all clans in India maintained their kula-vazhakkam (traditional practices)

The three formed a good combination or alliance in protecting their territories and interests.

Agamudaiyaars could either be kings or local kings or local rich persons

and engaged in bringing riches by trade.

The maravars took up the role of protecting the territories.

The kallars played a subsidiary role to maravars by stealth practices

in deceiving and winning enemies.

Their forest produce and cattle produce could have been marketed by Agamudaiyaars.

They had their location in forest tracts or mullai.

Thus all the three had a mutual benefit in co-existence.

This could have been of a later development,that took shape after they migrated inland to madurai.

Earlier in the land of Kumari, the agamudaiuyaars and maravars could have had a fused existence,and so also with maravars and kallars.

The cattle-rearers were known for their wrestling skills,Maravars for archery

and Agamudaiars for protection of their riches and subjects.

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 04:06 PM

I am just bringing different perspectives to the discussions so that we readers can read and form their own opinion

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 04:10 PM

This reasoning could become true years later. First AIT was propogated. It was finished off by archaeology and other studies. Then AMT came. The gentics have finished it off.

So anything is possible as things evolve.

Our tamil texts and sankrit have descriptions of many things including earthquakes, but they will be brished away as myths without investigating. there may be some exaggerration, but needs to be studied.

Anyother country would have done proper under sea research in dwaraka, mahabalipuram,poompuhar, tiruchendur areas to check.

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 04:16 PM

http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/underworld1.php?p=4

Online Introduction to Underworld
From Fingerprints of the Gods to Underworld

An Essay on Methods
By Graham Hancock

The mystery of the U-shaped structure

Yet there are so many underworlds.

I'll not add here to what I have to say in the book and the television series about Malta, China and Japan -- or why and where I think the Grand Bahama Bank as it last looked 6000 years ago is portrayed on the infamous Piri Reis Map of 1513.

I'd like to close with the Indian "theme" of the last few paragraphs but in a place about as far away as you can get from the Gulf of Cambay and still be in India.

The place is called Poompuhar. It lies on southeast India's Coromandel coast facing the Bay of Bengal between modern Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka. Its immediate offshore area has been the subject of marine archaeological investigations by India's National Institute of Oceanography since the 1980's -- and numerous non-controversial finds of man-made structures dated between the third century AD and the third century BC have been made in the "inter-tidal zone" close to shore at depths down to 6 feet (approximately 2 metres).

These finds of structures in shallow water (some so shallow that they are exposed at low tide) have been quite widely written-up in the archaeological literature. But for some reason other discoveries that the NIO has made in deeper water off Poompuhar have attracted no attention at all. Most notably these other discoveries include a second completely separate group of structures fully three miles from the Poompuhar shore in water that is more than 70 feet (23 metres) deep. The lack of interest is surprising because to anyone with even minimal knowledge of post-glacial sea-level rise their depth of submergence is - or should be - highly anomalous. Indeed according to Glenn Milne's sea-level data the land on which these structures were built last stood above water at the end of the Ice Age more than 11,000 years ago.

Is it a coincidence that there are ancient Tamil flood myths that speak of a great kingdom that once existed in this area called Kumari Kandam that was swallowed up by the sea? Amazingly the myths put a date of 11,600 years ago on these events -- the same timeframe given by Plato for the end of Atlantis in another ocean.

Like the cities in the Gulf of Cambay the underwater structures three miles offshore of Poompuhar were first identified by an instrument called sidescan sonar that profiles the seabed. One structure in particular was singled out for investigation and was explored by divers from India's National Institute of Oceanography in 1991 and 1993. Although they were not at that time aware of the implications of its depth of submergence -- i.e. that it is at least 11,500 years old -- the 1991 study confirms that it is man-made and describes it as:

a horse-shoe-shaped object, its height being one to two metres. A few stone blocks were found in the one-metre wide arm. The distance between the two arms in 20 metres. Whether the object is a shrine or some other man-made structure now at 23 metres [70 feet] depth remains to be examined in the next field season.

The 1993 study refines the measurements:

The structure of U-shape was located at a water depth of 23 metres which is about 5 kilometres off shore. The total peripheral length of the object is 85 metres while the distance between the two arms is 13 metres and the maximum height is 2 metres Divers observed growth of thick marine organism on the structure, but in some sections a few courses of masonry were noted

After 1993, no further marine archaeology was conducted along the Poompuhar coast until 2001 when I arranged with the NIO to dive on the U-shaped structure with funding from Channel 4 television in Britain and the Learning Channel in the US. Exclusive footage of the structure was filmed and is shown in episode 2 of the Underworld television series. Chapter 14 of the book is a report of our dives at Poompuhar, and what we found there.

Dr A.S. Gaur of the NIO told me on camera that it would have required "a very great technology" to build the U-shaped structure -- one far beyond the abilities of known cultures in India 11,500 years ago. For Dr Gaur this is a reason to doubt the accuracy of the sea-level-data which suggests that the structure was submerged so long ago. However the NIO have not yet been successful in recovering any datable materials or artefacts that could tell us its age more directly (for example by C-14 or TL tests).

My own expedition to Poompuhar with the NIO in 2001 was limited to diving on the U-shaped structure and one neighbouring structure. But what's really exciting is that more than 20 other large structures are known to be located in the same area down to depths of more than 100 feet. These have so far been identified only by sidescan sonar and never yet explored by divers. I've organised an expedition jointly with India's National Institute of Oceanography and John Blashford-Snell's Scientific Exploration Society in Britain to map and investigate these other structures in March/April 2002.

The Cambay and Poompuhar discoveries are both reported in depth for the first time in Underworld and set into the proper context of the flood myths and inundation history of the broader regions to which they belong.

If they are what they seem to be -- a caution I must repeat since so little research has actually been done by anyone -- then they signal an exciting new era in Indian archaeology in which the investigation of submerged ruins will play an increasingly important role. How do the Poompuhar finds compare with those in Cambay? Are they both parts of the same lost civilisation? Or do they perhaps represent two separate Ice Age cultures, one based in the north and the other in the south of the subcontinent?

Further exploration, involving divers, sonar scans and the recovery and analysis of artefacts will provide the answers.

And for reasons that I explain in Underworld, I think India's most ancient scriptures, the Vedas, also have a lot to tell us. There are tremendously good reasons to disbelieve the scholarly consensus (certainly the consensus amongst Western scholars) that the Vedas were composed as late as 1500 B.C. Parts of them probably do date from then; but some of the hymns could be much older than that -- carried down by oral traditions from much earlier times.

I think it all goes back to the Ice Age.

And in Underworld I try to explain why.

N.kumar

May 31st, 2011, 04:20 PM

If you people are interested and want me to post more on these topic, shall do so. Hope i am not boring.

satchitananda

May 31st, 2011, 04:54 PM

^^ Personally speaking Kumar, I read all the posts with intent. It is good to revive the thread. I also note you are posting on both sides of the argument which is great.

If you access some common blogs or sites for such info, it may be a good idea to give those links here. As this topic is more scientific deliberation, rather than arattai arangam style, it is bound to have fewer comments. It is better it remains that way than everyone professing to be experts.

Good work.

N.kumar

June 1st, 2011, 04:03 PM

Thanks Satchithananda. Barring one of the articles I have left link for all.
I post from my documents,article collected over years from links i see on forums, friends pass over and on twitter. So some may miss link, but if sentence searched in google, will sure show up.

Todays round up

This from Jayasree so from her blog only. dont have exact link

The practices with reference to death rites and belief in life after death, in the ancient Tamil land was the same as Vedic practices.

The Vedic practices are still in vogue in this country, among all Hindus,
irrespective of the languages they speak.

The commonalty of the practices is not a later development,but had been in vogue for all times in the past.

The olden Tamil texts bring out these features, making a strong plea that there is nothing called Dravidian religion or Dravidian practices, as far as Tamils are concerned.

PuranaanUru is one text that gives lot of inputs to show how Tamils were Vedic based only.

PuranaanuRu as reliable text.

Of the different texts in Tamil, Pura naanUru stands apart in that, it includes verses written in different times in the past 5000 years.

The very compilation of these verses written by different poets, already existed as early as before the advent of Christendom.

There is no record of who compiled these verses. But we are fortunate to have the explanation for 243/400 verses given by the compilers themselves.

The explanations must have been there for other verses too. But they are presumably lost.

But the verses and the existing explanations give enough pointers not only to the social life of those times but also the way the language existed.

It is because what we have today of PuranaanUru is about “Ara vazhi” –

the Dharma part of the 4 purusharthas.

From the retrieved palm leaf manuscripts, it is known, that Compilations have been done for the other 2, namely, artha and kaama.

But what we have as ‘ara vazhi’ is about the social norms and social life of Tamils.

Olden practices from PuranaanUru.

PuranaanUru seems to be oldest text we have, Some of the verses going back to 5000 years ago. The compilation seems to have been done twice in the past. What we have got now is the second and the latest one which was done as per the guidelines of Tholkaappiyam, the grammar book of Tamil.

But not all the poems and their respective explanations were written after Tholkaappiyam times.

According to Nacchinaarkkiniyaar, some of the poems must have been written well before Tholkaappiyam as they do not comply with the sutra-rules of Tholpkaappiyam. (1)

This is being said here to stress the fact that some of the verses such as the one quoted on Palyaagashaalai Mudukudumi Peruvazhuthi in the previous post in this series have been very old, during the times when Kumari-kandam existed.

From the verse on the Cheran king who supplied food to the armies engaged in kurukeshethra war (2) we come to know that this poem was written when Krishna lived – which was some 5000 years ago.

I mention this here to stress the point that PuranaanUru verses are excellent indicators of life in very ancient Tamil lands.

The compilation has also been done thoughtfully that one can find grouping of the verses into specific aspects of social life.

As such we see quite many verses on death related ceremonies as they were done in those times.

Another interesting feature is that the compilation includes these issues with reference to Royals and ordinary folks as well.

So we get a good amount of information for comparison and elucidation.

PuranaaNuru is thus a rich source of information on these aspects in ancient Tamils’ life. Based on them, we find that the Tamils were entirely of one culture – the culture we call as Sanatana Dharma and the people at large know as Hinduism whose base is Vedas.

Pindam.

We have seen in many posts earlier (labeled under ‘Pithru tarpaN’), what pindam is.

In shraddha ceremony, what is meant as pinda (rice balls) reaches the ancestors as sa-pinda particles (constituent particles).

These particles are as they are drawn when one is at womb.The explanation that used to be commonly said on how oblations reach pithrus is that of how the food offered to a pregnant woman is taken by the foetus in her womb.

The foetus which is shapeless, very soft and too small to be seen is known as ‘pinda’.

From Garbhopanishad, we come to know that the embryo which is 15 days old is known as ‘pindam’ (3).It is soft and made of primary particles of food clustered together.

That pinda shareeram is made up of just food.

Poet Kuda Pulaviyanaar explains Pindam in his poem on Pandyan Nedumchezhiyan.(4)

“uNdi muthatrE vuNavin pindam” –

pindam is drawn from food.

This food has its constitution in prithvi (earthen) and water particles.

ManimEkalai also states that the human body is made of Pindam

drawn from food

“makkaL yaakkai vuNavin pindam”

The vedic idea of Pindam is thus the view of Tamils too.

We find another verse too. that expresses the grief of a household that lost its man and had just done pindOdaga- kriya.

The young son had just finished offering pindam to his departed father,

how will he be able to drink milk, wonders the poetess, ThaayangaNNiyaar (5)

The preparation of the place for shraddha.

The preparation of the place for offering pinda is described in sastras.

According to Varaha purana, the place must be cleaned. Usually a small place is chosen and cleaned by smearing cow-dung.

In the 11th day ceremony after death, which is the same for all varNas,it has been stipulated that the place chosen must be away from the reach of animals and be washed with cow-dung and then only darbha grass must be spread.

We find 2 verses from PuranaanUru mentioning this.

The poet Thumbiser keerannar describes the pathos that enveloped a household that lost its man.

He describes how the weeping wife of the dead person is preparing the ground for offering food to her departed husband,by smearing cow-dung on the designated place.

“vuyar nilai vulagam avan pugal..

ari neerodu, suLAgil seerida neekki

azhdhallanaa-k-kaNNaL

mezhugu maappikaN kaluzh neeraanE” (6)

That the place chosen to offer pindam is small and that place has to be washed with cow-dung is also mentioned in another verse.

Expressing his sadness on the death of VeL Evvi,the poet veLLerukkilaiyaar describes the place as a small one smeared with cow-dung. (7)

Darbha.

The mention of darbha comes in quite many verses in PuranaanUru.

It is made out in all those verses on pinda-daan, that pindam was offered on the spread of darbha grass.

“pullagatthitta silavizh valsi” (8)

says poet Sanga varuNar in sarcastic tone about what will happen to the enemies of king Thandumaaran.The enemies conquered by this king are so many that the pindam offered on darbha grass made quite a huge quantity all put together.

This also goes to show that shraddha ceremonies were done for all those who were killed in the battle.

In another verse we find the poet lamenting the death of his beloved king.

The poet VeLLerukkilaiyaar could not bear the sight of such small balls of pindam offered on the darbha grass,to the departed king, VeL Evvi, who was never known for eating alone and eating so less! (9)

He cries,

“pun mEl vaittha in siru pindam,

yaangundanam kol?”

(How did you eat such a small quantity of pindam kept on darbha?)

Darbha is not just meant for keeping the pindam.Darbha is spread even for laying the dead body.

This is the vedic practice.

This finds mention in a verse by the famous Auvaiyaar.In praise of how the opponents of King Adhiyamaan Nedumaan Anji run away from him fearing for their life, the poetess says that since they did not die in the war against him

(dying in the war was considered as the reward for a Kshathriya that was capable of giving them swarga loka – something found in Mahabharatha too

in which those who died in the war reached the swarga loka or heavens),

their bodies (after death due to diseases)would be kept on the bed of darbha grass and their body cut with a sword, so that they could be cremated

with the satisfaction that they died of sword (presumably in a war)! (10)

References :-
1)Foreword by Dr U.Ve. Swaminatha Iyer in his book“ PuraanUru moolamum uraiyum” page-5.

(2) PuranaanUru -2

(3) Garbhopanishad – 3 “Artha-maasaBhyantharENa PindO bhavathi”

(4) PuranaanUru -18

(5) PuranaanUru -250

(6) PuranaanUru -249

(7) PuranaanUru -234

(8) PuranaanUru -360

(9) PuranaanUru -234

(10) PuranaanUru -93

rsubbu.mdu

June 1st, 2011, 06:41 PM

Arasu

June 1st, 2011, 10:56 PM

^^
Both scripts evolved from Brahmi.

N.kumar

June 2nd, 2011, 08:54 AM

The name Aanaiyur makes me think of old elephant stories. Not surprisingly, the name of the village comes from an elephant tale, supposedly a divine sport (thiruvilayadal) of Lord Shiva.

It is believed that the short-tempered saint Dhurvasar gifted a white flower to Lord Indra. But Indra forgetfully left it on his white elephant Iravadham and the elephant tampered with the flower. This angered Saint Dhurvasar and he cursed the elephant to lose its sheen and turn black. The elephant came to this village and performed pujas to Lord Shiva for redemption. Hence, the village is known as Aanaiyur.

“If we take this story from Thiruvilayadal Puranam into account, this village might be a few centuries old,” says C. Santhalingam, retired Archaeological Officer. “But there are archeological evidences for its existence even 6,000 years ago when people were still leading a nomadic life.”

He says archaeologists had unearthed microlithic tools and megalithic burial urns from the village and nearby areas. Though the village lacks microlithic and megalithic evidence now in its vicinity, the 1000-year-old Iyravadeshwarar Temple stands here, intact and imposing. The walls of the temple narrate the history of many kings and their reigns.

The temple's mahamandap is supported by about 42 pillars. The four-pillared arthamandap leads to the sanctum sanctorum of the Suyambu lingam known as Lord Iyravadeshwarar. Magnificent dwarapalakas greet visitors at the entrance. Later additions include Goddess Meenakshi, Lord Muruga with his consorts and Dakshinamoorthy.

There are 25 inscriptions in the temple belonging to early Pandya kings, the Chola kings Rajaraja Chola and Rajendra Chola, Sadayavarman Sundara Chola Pandyan and later Pandya kings. The earliest inscription belongs to Cholan Thalai Konda Veera Pandya (946-966 AD).

“The temple might have been constructed during the eighth or ninth century as the inscription on developmental activities belongs to 10th Century,” points out Mr. Santhalingam. One of the inscriptions states the presence of a standing army in the village during the early Pandya period. And many inscriptions enumerate the land and cattle donations for maintenance of the temple.

Even during the Chola rule spanning 200 years, the Pandya-built temple was maintained. Inscriptions belonging to Raja Raja Chola (985-1014 AD) and Rajendra Chola (1012-1044 AD) and their viceroy Sadayavarman Sundara Chola Pandyan (1011-1031 AD) also give an account of donations.

Inscriptions are also found that relate to the later Pandya kings Sadayavarman Sri Vallabha Pandya (12th Century AD), Jadavarman Sundara Pandya (1238-1256 AD) and Maravarman Kulasekara Pandya (1268-1310 AD), and there are records of the Vijayanagara rulers of the 14th Century.

One inscription refers to the presence of ‘Pallipadai kalangatha kandan' (temple constructed on the burial ground of a king or a queen) at Pahanoorkootram, in the present Sholavandan region.

The oldest sculptures in the temple are Lord Vinayaka and Jeista Devi sitting along with her son Komugan and daughter Agnimatha. Jeista in Sanskrit means elder. It is believed that Jeista is known as ‘mootha devi' (elder devi) which later became ‘moo devi.'

The temple seems to have had three kinds of priests, known as Sthanikars, Aganalikars and Panchachariyars.

It had a mutt, women for dancing and men for reciting ‘thevaram'.

For safety concerns, the bronze idols of Natarajar, Sivakami, Chandrasekarar and Manickavasagar are housed at Jenagaimariamman Temple in Sholavandan.

In the Tamil month of Thai, the idols are brought to Iyravadeshwarar temple and pujas are performed for a few days.

The evidence undoubtedly shows that Aanaiyur is an ancient village. And it also has an old name, Thirukurumullur.

The Iyravadeshwarar Temple was known as Thirukurumullur Agniswaram and Thirukurumullur Udaiyanayanar before it got its present name

http://www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/metroplus/article2068161.ece?homepage=true

Mr.Nellai

June 4th, 2011, 03:18 PM

1000 years age-old paintings in Thirupudaimaruthoor

bBif8nst5gU

Arul Murugan

June 5th, 2011, 07:16 AM

Does it mean that during a particular period devanagiri and tamil alphabets were similar or both had a common origin .....

Can members who are knowledgeable on this subject throw some light...

Note: If the image is too small to read, kindly save on ur system, enlarge and read.

Regards,
Subbu

^^
Both scripts evolved from Brahmi.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Skriptit-plain.svg/436px-Skriptit-plain.svg.png

Vatteluttu evolved during 6th century which is the present Tamil uses for written form.

Devanagari evolved during 11th century which Hindi uses now.

As Arasu said both belongs to Brahmi family.

rsubbu.mdu

June 5th, 2011, 08:16 AM

During my recent visit to the Tanjore big temple, i was bit amused by the depiction of Buddha in one area :

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-N5tfcorFiLY/TcUwCcCxShI/AAAAAAAAIUw/z6ntMYt3xq8/s512/DSC_0525.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-532n2xH_AgM/TcUwIPEMHII/AAAAAAAAIU0/dpfRUcO46js/s512/DSC_0526.JPG

The explanation given by the guide was " as daughter of Raja Raja embraced Budhism, scuptures of Budha came up in the temple"..

Further mining on the net let me to this interesting stuff ....

Why are there depictions of Buddha in the Tanjore Big Temple?

Source: (http://www.poetryinstone.in/lang/en/2011/04/08/why-are-there-depictions-of-buddha-in-the-tanjore-big-temple.html)

For a temple as famous as the Tanjore Brihadeshwara, it does have more than its fair share of legends associated with it. We have seen of these before, including the most popular one of the Shadow of the Vimana.. Today, we are to see another popular riddle - Why are there depictions of Buddha in the temple. Yes, its depictions in plural ! There are three places where we get to see the form of Buddha - two carved into stone and one a part of the famed Fresco.

A careful study of the Tripurantaka episode reveals the clues and explains the panels.

The three sons of the demon Taraka - Vidyunmali, Tarakaksha, and Viryavana , were devout followers of Shiva and by the power of their austerities they sought from Brahma the boon of immortality. This was not within the creators powers as all things had to perish, so they sought a seemingly impossible end - They sought three forts, one of pure gold, another of silver, last of iron and each could fly !! Once in a thousand years, the three would align in a single line for a brief second and it was at this moment that they could be felled by a single arrow of Shiva. Having received this boon they sought the services of the divine architect Maya to cast their flying fortresses.

The years passed as centuries and their power thus complimented they grew in prosperity and challenged the Devas. Powerless against them, the devas sought the help of Shiva, who being the benevolent self, said that ` as long as they are my followers, i cannot do anything’. The time when destiny brought the three flying citadels in the same line drew near and in desperation the devas sought the help of Vishnu. Seeing the need to correct the balance of power, Vishnu took upon himself to lead the Tripura demons out of Shiva worship. He took the form of a Buddha ( the operative word here is “a”) and led them out of the Shivaite faith.

Now, Shiva took on the task of ending their rule. The Devas with the help of Visvakarma constructed the chariot of the earth, the Sun and the Moon became its wheels, the bow was the Mount Meru itself and Vasuki the Bow string. Vishnu himself became the arrow. Brahma became his charioteer and he led the Deva army along with Ganesha, Skanda and Mahishasuramardhini.

Quoting Dr R. Nagasamy :
“Lord Brahma addressed Siva and said “Lord you are Omniscient and Omnipotent and you do not require all these chariot, weapons, and the retinue to destroy the Asuras? The Asuras will disappear the moment you “will”, but if you are still resorting to these acts it is purely out of your sport”. Siva laughed and at the same moment the Asuras were burnt to ashes. In order to please the Devas Siva discharged the arrow. That is the story of Tripurantaka. “

krishnaswamy

June 5th, 2011, 07:52 PM

Mr.Nellai

June 6th, 2011, 01:09 AM

^^^^ even i was about to post the same, but was searching for the photo:)

rsubbu.mdu

June 6th, 2011, 06:17 AM

In Tanjore big temple tower on the northern side of the tower, just above 3rd floor window, there will be picture of Englishman with the hat.
this is how "karu voorar" who has built the temple considered to be the holy man with the future vision!
unfortunately i donot have the photo with me now..

here is the photo:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2211/5803202870_2cd3d55978.jpg

Source: (http://kavirimainthan.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/a-european-on-tanjore-temple/)

that is not put during Raja Raja period ......the european is an addition in the later period when India was under various empires ...

Here is one theory :
http://kavirimainthan.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/a-european-on-tanjore-temple/

Regards,
Subbu

inchennai

June 6th, 2011, 06:51 AM

rsubbu.mdu

June 6th, 2011, 08:01 AM

Subbu,

You believe in these puranic stories? :)

Regarding the Buddha's images, Once Tamil country and south India was mostly following some form of early Buddhism and Jainism. Then came the other religions replacing those two. Carefull analysis of Tamil literature can tell you this. Early Buddhism is not about a single man but about the way to follow with some principles.

Hello inchennai,

The puranic stories including Ramayan and Mahabharatha are glorified versions of the actual happenings. Tha doesnt meant that they are false, the incidents did happen but lot of imaginative additions happened over time...

In any temple, the sculptures are based on puranic stories, so the presence of budha as explained by the article might be the reason for putting them there during Raja Raja's period.

I accept ur argument that Budhism and Jainism had a sway over southern pennisula for quiet some time before Hinduism bounced back to its glory.

Regards,
Subbu

Mr.Nellai

June 16th, 2011, 10:49 PM

Centenary of a historical assassination today|Vanchinathan's memorial work witnessing slow progress

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00659/17THVANCHI_659780e.jpg

Friday (June 17) marks the centenary of the assassination of the then Tirunelveli Collector and District Magistrate Robert William D' Escourt Ashe, an event that fuelled the freedom struggle in this part of the country.

On June 17, 1911, Ashe and his wife Mary were on their way to Kodaikanal when their train made a halt at Maniyachi Railway Junction. Their first-class coach was to be attached to the Boat Mail that was to arrive 10 minutes later for their onward journey. The time was 10.38 a.m.

Two young men, one of whom was neatly dressed with tufted hair, entered the compartment where Ashe and his wife were seated. Ashe, in a relaxed mood, was conversing with his wife. One of the men fired at him from an automatic Belgian-made Browning pistol, according to a publication of the Crime Branch - Criminal Investigation Department (CB-CID) released early this year.

A Tamil monograph authored by A. Sivasubramanian of Tuticorin on the Ashe murder states that after the shooting, the train started going back to Tirunelveli. Around 11.30 a.m., the Collector died of internal haemorrhage, as he lay on the shoulder of his wife.

The CB-CID publication says that having accomplished their mission, one of the men escaped and the other, chased by a crowd, got into a lavatory and shot himself dead.

The person who killed himself was the assassin - R. Vanchinathan Aiyar of Shencottah. The accomplice, Madasamy, could never be traced.

The police had charged 14 persons for conspiracy and waging war against the King Emperor.

Two of the accused committed suicide. Nine of them were convicted for various terms, the highest being seven years' rigorous imprisonment. T. Prakasam, who later became Chief Minister of the Madras Presidency and Andhra Pradesh, was one of the lawyers who defended the accused.
Pension to his widow

Even after Independence, the widow of Vanchinathan was not covered under the State Government's pension scheme for freedom fighters or their immediate dependents till 1967. It was C.N. Annadurai who, as Chief Minister, had decided to grant pension to her in June 1967, overruling objections.

The assassination took place at a time when the country was in the midst of a political upheaval. During 1908-1910, revolutionary activity was gaining ground in many parts of the country and attempts were made on the lives of Governor-General, Lieutenant Governors and government officers. The British government had followed a policy of repression.

In Tamil Nadu, the quest for freedom was becoming more and more vigorous. Three years before the assassination, Tirunelveli witnessed violent scenes following the arrest of V.O. Chidambaram Pillai, popularly known as VOC, and Subramania Siva.

The police document states that Vanchi and other revolutionaries bore a grudge against Ashe for his role in scuttling the Swadeshi Steam Navigation Company, established by VOC in 1906.
Renaming of junction

Kumari Anandan, former Tamil Nadu Congress Committee president, who led a campaign in the 1980s for naming the Maniyachi junction after Vanchinathan, recalls that during his visit to the State in October 1988, the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi announced the renaming of the junction. Still, railway tickets do not bear the name of Vanchi. Not many trains halt at the station.
Rs.50 lakh sanctioned

A senior government official says that a memorial for Vanchinathan, announced by the previous Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam regime, is coming up at Shencottah. A sum of Rs.50 lakh has been sanctioned.

P. Ramanathan, founder president of ‘Vaanchi Iyakkam,' which is organising a function at Shencottah on Friday, complains over the slow progress of the construction of the memorial.

In an e-mail message to A.R. Venkatachalapathy, Professor of the Madras Institute of Development Studies who has carried out research in the subject, the British Collector's grandson Robert Ashe says “on this day of sad but proud remembrance,” his family would like to extend a “message of reconciliation and friendship” to the Vanchi family.

“Vanchi was an idealist political campaigner whose zeal for the freedom of his beloved India sent Robert to his early grave. Moments later, he took his own young life. All who act fervently in the political arena, both ruler and oppressed, risk making mortal mistakes, and we who are fortunate enough to live on, must forgive and live in peace together.”

Source (http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article2110600.ece)

Mr.Nellai

June 16th, 2011, 10:51 PM

An utsavam to thank Nammazhwar

Azhwar Tirunagari was abuzz with activity as devotees were queuing up to have the first glimpse of the Nava Tirupathi Lords during the Azhwar utsavam held recently.

Aadhinatha Azhwar Temple in Azhwar Tirunagari played host to the grandest of the festivals, azhwar utsavam, held this past week at Nava Tirupathi (nine Vishnu temples) on either sides of the River Tamirabarani off the Tirunelveli - Tiruchendur state highway. On the fifth day (Wednesday June 8) of the utsavam, the utsava deities of all the nine temples congregated at Azhwar Tirunagari as a gesture to thank Nammazhwar for his significant contribution to the 4000 sacred verses (Nalayira Divya Prabhandham).

After his birth, Nammazhwar did not consume anything. Neither did he open his mouth for 16 years. God was everything to him as he sat quietly under the Tamarind tree at Thiru Kurugur (another name for Azhwar Tirunagari). Moved by his steadfast devotion, the Lord appeared in front of him.

Ahead of the visit of the Nava Tirupathi Lords, Azhwar Tirunagari, the only divyadesam to be named after an Azhwar, wore a festive look. The women on the Sannidhi Street started their traditional pulli kolam early in the morning. Temporary shops sprung up on both sides of the street. Nammazhwar was being decked up inside the temple which was abuzz with activity as devotees were queuing up to have the first glimpse of the Nava Tirupathi Lords.

While Azhwar Tirunagari was getting ready for the big event, the other eight ‘Nava Tirupathi’ Lords began their procession to this divyadesam from their respective abodes to join the ninth Lord (Polintha Ninra Piraan, utsava deity of Aadhinatha Azhwar Temple).

Welcoming gesture

Nammazhwar, with a beautifully decorated and colourful green umbrella atop him, made his way to the Ramayana mandapam at the entrance of the temple to welcome the deities from their abodes. Shortly after, Nammazhwar, who is the only Azhwar to have sung in praise of all the Nava Tirupathi temples, received the first three of the Nava Tirupathi Lords – Kallapiran of Sri Vaikuntam, Vijayasayanar of Varagunamangai (Natham) and Kaisina Venthar of Thiru Pulingudi.

Welcoming them, Araiyar Nadhamuni of Azhwar Tirunagari (Azhwar Tirunagari is one of the only three divyadesams where araiyar sevai is still being performed) presented Nammazhwar’s Thiruvoimozhi verse – ‘Pulingudi Kidanthu, Varagunamangai Irunthu, Vaikunthathul Ninru……’ - in which he sung in praise of all three of them in one go referring to the standing lord of Sri Vaikuntam, the one in a grand sitting posture at Varagumangai and the sleeping lord of Pulingudi.

Nammazhwar accepted the parivattam (the turban linen) and the garland from the first of the three Nava Tirupathi Lord. Over the next hour, he accorded a similar welcome to the rest of the Nava Tirupathi Lords.

Nammazhwar refers to Aravinda Lochana and Devapiran (Erettai Tirupathi) as the prosperous temple in Thulai Villi Mangalam on the Northern Bank of Porunai River (Tamaraibarani) where there was constant Vedic Chanting. This was followed by Mayakoothan from Perungulam who Nammazhwar referred to as a wonder dancer riding on Garuda in the West in Southern Kulanthai. His reference to groves and big mansions indicates that this was a prosperous location in centuries gone by.

Nammazhwar then welcomed the last two of the Nava Tirupathi Lords, from the East, Nigaril Mugil Vannan from Then Thiruperai, who he refers to as ‘Makara Nedun Kulai Kaadhan’ (the one with the Makara ear rings) and Vaitha Maa Nidhi from Thiru Kolur, birth place of Madura Kavi azhwar.

While Nammazhwar received garland from all the 9 Nava Tirupathi lords, Madura Kavi Alwar, who pronounced Nam Alwar as his God, received the garland from the Alwar himself.

Natha Muni, who came here to compile the Naalayira Divya Prabhandham which had been lost to the world, first met with Madura Kavi Alwar and picked up his ‘Kanninun Sirutha Ambinaal’ composition. It was after reciting these verses 12000 times that Nam Alwar shared with Natha Muni the contents of the Naalayira Divya Prabhandham.

After Thirumanjana and Alankara through the evening and recital of 273 verses from the Divya Prabhandham (173 verses of Andal’s Thiruppavai and Nachiyar Thirumozhi and 100 verses from Nam Alwar’s Thiruvoimozhi), all the Nava Tirupathi Lords were all set to mount on their respective Garuda Vahana.

Much awaited Event - Once in a year procession

At 11.30pm, much to the delight of the 10000plus devotees who had gathered at the temple for the big event of the Alwar Utsavam, Nam Alwar, on his Hamsa Vahana, and Madura Kavi Alwar, on a special Parangi Narkali (Bamboo chair), came out to a loud cheer and positioned themselves at the entrance of the temple. For the next hour, beginning with Polintha Ninra Piraan, all the nine Utsava deities with extensive flower decoration came out one after another on their Garuda Vahana providing this special darshan to Nam Alwar.

Well after mid night, all the Nava Tirupathi deities along with Nam Alwar and Madura Kavi Alwar went on the once in a year procession, first around the four Mada streets and then around the Car streets of Alwar Tirunagari to provide darshan to devotees who had stayed awake through the night to witness this marvellous spectacle..

By 6am, the next morning, all of them were back at the Aathi Natha Alwar Tirunagari temple and shortly afterwards it was time for them to bid adieu to Nam Alwar and head back to their respective abodes in Nava Tirupathi.

Alwar’s send off - Special Gesture

Being the farthest from Alwar Tirunagari, Mayakoothan of Perungulam (10kms away) was sent off first by Nam Alwar, followed by Kallapiran, Vijayasayanar and Kaisina Venthar.

Having seen Devapiran of Erettai Tirupathi as his own father and mother (Sinthaiyaalum Sollaalum, Seigaiyinaalum Devapiranaiye Thanthai Thaai Enru Adaintha Van……..Thiruvoimozhi verse), Nam Alwar in a special gesture of showing that extra care for his ‘parents’ waited a few extra minutes till Aravinda Losana and Devapiran of Errettai Tirupathi went completely out of sight at the Eastern end of Sannidhi Street past the Nayaka Mandapa on his way back to their abode. Following this, Nam Alwar saw off for another year Nigaril Mugil Vannan and Vaitha Maa Nithi.

To the Tamarai Barani

On the occasion of his birthday (Vaikasi Visakam) - the 10{+t}{+h} day of the Utsavam this Monday (13{+t}{+h} June) - Nam Alwar entered the Tamarai Barani for one of the only two occasions in the year (the other being in Maasi) for Theertha Vari accompanied by the loud rendering of Divya Prabhandham verses bringing to end Nava Tirupathi’s biggest utsavam.

How to reach Alwar Tirunagari

Aathi Nathan Alwar Divya Desam at Alwar Tirunagari is about 30kms East of Tirunelveli on the Tirunelveli-Tiruchendur highway off the Southern banks of Tamaraibarani and is also referred to as Aathi Kshetram, Varaaha Kshetram, Theertha Kshetram, Thaantha Kshetram and Sesha Kshetram and Thiru Kurugur.

Buses ply every 15minutes from Tirunelveli. A Taxi from Tirunelveli Station to cover all the Nava Tirupathi temples and back will cost Rs. 1200.

One can start the Nava Tirupathi trip from SriVaikuntam at 7am, then go to Alwar Tirunagari and finish in the West at Varagunamangai at 2pm. Auto/ Taxi from Sri Vaikuntam to all the Nava Tirupathi temples will cost around Rs.500.

Features of Alwar Festival

Nava Tirupathi’s biggest and grandest Festival

Araiyar Seva of Nam Alwar’s paasurams on Nava Tirupathi

Alwar’s Hamsa Vahana 6hour procession through the night along with Nava Tirupathi deities

Alwar accords special welcome and send off to all the Nava Tirupathi Lords

Source (http://www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/religion/article2109628.ece)

Mr.Nellai

June 23rd, 2011, 02:54 AM

Digitisation of rare manuscripts nearing end

The digitisation of rare Saivaite manuscripts is nearing completion at the French School of Asian Studies (EFEO), a research institution, under the French Ministry of Higher Education and Research.

The Shivaite Manuscripts of Pondicherry, which is deemed a UNESCO “Memory of the World” collection, is the one of the largest collection of texts of the Saiva Siddhanta. The 1,614 palm-leaf bundles at the Ecole francaise d’Etreme-Orient (EFEO) library were from a single collection in Tirunelveli district.

The manuscripts transmit texts of every branch of pre-modern Indian learning and nearly half of it relates to one of the major theistic traditions of India, that are concerned with the worship of God Shiva.

The Chennai-based Sanmarga Trust India has taken up the enormous task of digitisation. Nellaiyappan of the Trust said his firm took up the task in December 2008, and completed digitisation of some 8,700 manuscripts at the French Institute of Pondicherry. “Five months ago we took up this project and we would finish it by this month-end,” he said and added that completed portions would be uploaded on the EFEO website.

He said that his trust had plans to keep Saiva-Agamas portions separate and would provide simple translations of all the manuscripts in Tamil and English.

According to Satyanarayana, a researcher associated with the EFEO, the palm-leaf manuscripts, belonging to the 18th and 19th centuries and most of these codices are written in Grantha script (used for writing Sanskrit), Tamil and Malayalam. The writing is incised in the leaves with a stylus and the ink is then rubbed over, which remains in the incisions.

Shanthi, the librarian where the manuscripts are preserved, told Express that the palm leaves are regularly brushed and painted with lemon grass oil to repel the insects and the whole collection is kept in an air-conditioned room

kannan infratech

June 23rd, 2011, 10:01 AM

The below image is regarding the evolution of Tamil language which i spotted in one of the museums in TN:

I have this doubt looking the evolution of tamil alpabhets ...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5787199208_e9022513d1_z.jpg

Case#1 --> tamil alphabet "அ", in the 11th -12th century looks very similar to hindi "अ".

Case#2 --> tamil alphabet "க" in the 12-13th century looks very similar to hindi "क".

many such ones .....

Does it mean that during a particular period devanagiri and tamil alphabets were similar or both had a common origin .....

Can members who are knowledgeable on this subject throw some light...

Note: If the image is too small to read, kindly save on ur system, enlarge and read.

Regards,
Subbu

I was forced to learn Adhi Grandham by my Grandma. With my limited knowledge, I can say that

Adhi Grantham in original form may be of the same age like Devanagari.

Adhi Grantham has Vattu Ezhuthu only without sharp corners or strokes. Probably, it is also called Brahmi.

Adhi Grantham may be the source for Tamizh & Malayalam.

Adhi Grantham was commonly used in Southern & Western Parts of Deccan peninsula.

We had loads & loads of old books, scriptures, palm leaves manuscripts in our house written in Adhi Grantham. My uncle is doing lots of research with them.

Arul Murugan

June 26th, 2011, 06:07 AM

Iron Age burial site found near Tiruvannamalai

T.S. Subramanian

It is spread over three km and can be dated to 1,000 BCE-300 CE

http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/26/images/2011062664421601.jpg
These megalithic burial sites (cairn circles), discovered near Veeranam in Tiruvannamalai district, can be dated to 1,000 BCE-300 CE. The granite slabs of the dolmenoid cists, broken by villagers, are strewn around.

CHENNAI: An Iron Age megalithic burial site, dotted with cairn-circles, has been discovered near Veeranam village, at the foot of a chain of hills, in Tamil Nadu's Tiruvannamalai district.

This sprawling site, spread over about three km in Tandaramapattu taluk, can be dated to 1,000 BCE-300 CE. What is interesting about the discovery is that many of the cairn-circles have dolmenoid cists on the surface within the circles. Cairn-circles are rough stones arranged in a circle, and dolmenoid cists are box-like structures made of granite slabs. The cairn-circles indicate burial chambers below, with urns containing bones and pottery with paddy, beads, knives, swords and other artefacts.

Poems in the Tamil Sangam literature (300 BCE to 300 CE) celebrate these megalithic burials, which can unlock the secrets of the social life of that age. But residents of nearby villages have already destroyed a large number of these cairn-circles near Veeranam and carted away the stones and granite-slabs for building cowsheds and compound walls, and for laying floors. A quarry is working nearby, in the hills.

The discovery was made by a team led by K.T. Gandhirajan, who specialises in art history. The team included Professor G. Chandrasekaran, former principal of the Government College of Fine Arts, Chennai; K. Natarajan, sculptor; and A. Amirthalingam, painter.

Terming it a vast, unexplored site, Mr. Gandhirajan said: “It is an important site in northern Tamil Nadu, which is being destroyed fast. It has not been excavated so far, and it may yield a lot of Palaeolithic tools.” There are two types of burials here: cairn-circles with dolmenoid cists on the surface and plain cairn-circles.

“These burial sites have hidden secrets of the social life of the Sangam age. The poets of the Sangam age talk about such burial sites, which are equally or more important than the Tamil-Brahmi sites,” Mr. Gandhirajan said. But the cairn-circles near Veeranam are being destroyed by villagers living a few km away. A quarry is mining granite in the hills close to the site and “if the quarry extends its operation, the site will be destroyed.”

K. Rajan, Professor of History, Department of History, Pondicherry University, said there were several references in the poems of the Sangam literature to the megalithic burials. One of the poems, for instance, spoke about ‘paral uyar padhukkai,' that is, elevated stone circles (‘paral' means stones, ‘uyar' referring to elevated and ‘padhukkai' meaning circles).

Dr. Rajan, who has discovered scores of megalithic burial sites including cairn-circles, dolmens and menhirs, said the Veeranam and other sites in Tiruvannamalai district could be dated to 1,000 BCE — that is, 3,000 years before the present.

“Destruction of these megalithic burial sites is going on at a very fast rate,” he said. Vandalism had destroyed the superbly built dolmens at Mallanchandiram in Krishnagiri district. Industrialisation has erased the megalithic burials at Mankulam near Madurai. Urbanisation and construction of a dam at Orathupalayam have destroyed the Iron Age burial sites near Kodumanal, near Erode.

Hundreds of megalithic burial sites that have been destroyed include those on the Vandalur-Kelambakkam Road near Chennai, Venpakkam near Singaperumal Kovil, also near Chennai, in and around Pudukottai, at Kallampalayam in the Nilgiris, Vellaripatti, near Madurai on the Madurai-Tiruchi Road, at Porunthal village and Ravimangalam, both near Palani.

The advent of huge earth-moving machines, used for laying highways and digging big pits, hastened the destruction of the Iron Age burial sites, Mr. Gandhirajan said.

He wanted the Tamil Nadu Archaeology Department or the Archaeological Survey of India to prepare a list of the surviving sites, fence them off and declare them protected monuments under the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Sites and Remains Act.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/26/stories/2011062664421600.htm

thillai_selvan

June 28th, 2011, 02:40 PM

Tamil Nadu photos collection in 17th and 18th centuries....

http://pkp.blogspot.com/2011/06/blog-post_08.html

Mr.Nellai

June 29th, 2011, 04:53 AM

Dakshina Badri- Nambi kovil

AT the foot of the Mahendragiri hills on the western ghats and on the banks of the river Nambiyaru lies the sleepy village of Tirukkrungudi, the abode of Narayana. In the ``Varaha Purana'' the Lord speaks of His sojourn in this holy village.Thus this place derives its name ``Kurungudi'' the smaller abode of Narayana. This centre is also called ``Dakshina Badri. '' While at Badri in the north, Narayana preached the ``Tirumantram'' through ``Uttara'' a human being for the salvation of the entire commnity, it was at Tirukkurungudi that Saint Sri Ramanuja gave his sermon on ``Tirumantram'' to the Lord Himself.

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/7128/nambi3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/864/nambi3.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

The temple at Tirukkurungudi is dedicated to Lord Nambi, called Sundara Paripurnam in Sanskrit and Nambi Narayan in Hindi. As the name signifies there is no equal to the beauty and fascination of the deity and He is beauty personified. The majestic mools vigrahas are in different postures of standing, sitting and lying. These huge idols are carved of stone with application of natural colours and decorated with gold leaves as per our agama rituals. Nammazhwar the foremost amongst the Vaishnavite saints, is considered to be the incarnation of Lord Nambi. Nammazhwar, Periazhwar, Tirumazhisai Azhwar and Tirumangai Azhwar have chanted hymns in praise of Lord Nambi in the ``Divya Prabhandam.''

A shrine for Lord Siva is installed inside the temple besides the main shrine of Lord Nambi, and the deity is called ``Pakkam Nindrar'' and this has been immortalised in his hymns by Tirumangai azwar. After worshipping Badri Narayana and Lord Ranganatha, Tirumangai azwar attained salvation at the feet of Lord Nambi. For upholding and preaching Vaishnavism Saint Ramanuja founded at Tirukkurungudi ``Sri Perarula Ramanuja Jeer Swami Mutt'' which governs the temple. Kaisika Ekadasi falling during the Tamil month of Karthigai is of importance in this temple as also Vaikunta Ekadasi at Srirangam, and attracts thousands of pilgrims. The presiding deity is taken round on different vahanams during the annual brahmotsavam.

At one time 18 families of Arayars were performing the traditional art of chanting the name of the Lord gestures, and on one occasion Lord Nambi himself witnessed the scene appearing as a Srivaishnavite. Pleased by the devotion the Lord gave salvation to all the members of the Arayar families. In recognition of their services a bell is installed inside the sanctum. A huge carvedbell presented by the Kerala king Aditya Verma in 1468 AD is also found in the temple. On the hills close by stands a small temple dedicated to Lord Nambi called ``Malai Nambi,'' with a panoramic view of the village below.

An interesting stone inscription is found on both ends of the south mada street, of an agraharam having been built by a British officer, Mr. Livings who was the Collector of Tirunelveli during 1849 A.D. The early temples were built in the form of mandapam for the sanctum. Later the arthamandapam, mukhamandapam and mahamandapam were added to meet the growing need for rituals and festivals. The temple at Tirukkurungudi has a collection, intricate carvings with exuberant details rich in different styles of the Pandyan and Nayak dynasties. Superb wood carvings are found in the tiers of the temple tower. Large stone carvings at the Rati mandapam and Veerappa Nayak mandapam exhibit intricate details. The masterpiece is the carved Narasimha performing the ``Hiranya Vadham.'' The mastery of the artisan is visible on the walls of the main tower and special mention is of a piece depicting the trading between India and the Persian gulf.

Article source:http://kalakad.info/nambikovil.html

Mr.Nellai

July 8th, 2011, 02:32 AM

Ancient temple gets a facelift

The paintings found inside Satya Vageeswarar temple, Kalakkad (my home town :)), Tirunelveli

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/2648/08frkalakkad1687983f.jpg (http://img808.imageshack.us/i/08frkalakkad1687983f.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

It is a puzzle - how this temple at Kalakkad in Tirunelveli district, Tamil Nadu, with its wealth of inscriptions, sculptures, murals, music pillars and a towering rajagopuram with about 1,500 stucco figures has never come under the spotlight. It has a big granary too.

While granary bins made of wood are found in temples and palaces in this part of southern Tamil Nadu, the one at Kalakkad temple is a masonry granary. The temple has features that go back to the Chola period and so could be more than 800 years old.

Preparations are under way for the kumbabishekam of Sri Satya Vageeswarar temple on July 14 at Kalakkad, Nanguneri Taluk, Tirunelveli.

Stucco figures

A highlight of the kumbabishekam is the renovation of the temple's 135 ft tall, nine-tiered rajagopuram which teems with 1,500 stucco figures. They were made of ‘sudhai' (lime mortar) which were broken over a period of time. “We used the original material used in making these stucco figures, for making them again. We never used cement. For painting them, we used natural pigments. We never used synthetic paint,” said K.R. Chandrasekaran, treasurer, Kalakkad Bhaktar Peravai, which is spearheading the temple's renovation. “On July 14, the kumbabishekam will be performed between 8.35 and 9.35 a.m.,” he said.

On the inner walls of the rajagopuram's nine storeys there are about 200 beautiful murals, portraying scenes from the Ramayana, the Mahabharatha, Tiruvilaiyadal Puranam (Siva Leelas), Siva's marriage to Parvati, episodes from the lives of the Tamil Nadu's Saivite saints, Siva as Bhikshatana, Rati and Manmatha, Krishna Leelas, the wedding of Saivite saint, Sundarar and so on. The wooden floors and pillars of the nine floors have been repaired and painted anew.

S. Balusami, associate professor of Tamil, Madras Christian College, Tambaram, Chennai, said an inscription in the temple of Parakrama Pandyan, issued in his sixth regnal year i.e., in 1548, spoke about ‘Vanavan Naattu… Kalakkad alias Chola Kula Vallipuram.' Other inscriptions in the temple also called the village ‘Kalakkad alias Chola Kula Vallipuram.'

The sculptures in the temple belonged to circa 16th century CE and they included those of Boothala Veera Udaya Marthanda Varman, a king of Travancore or Venadu.

Dr. Balusami said: “Boothala Veeran was an important king of Venadu or Tiruvadi. He built a palace at Kalakkad, named it ‘pudhu veedu' (New House) and lived there for a long time. The front mantapam in the temple, with pillars that emit music when tapped, was built by him.” He was also called Puli Marthanda Varman.

“The Boothala Veeran's sculpture is splendid. He has a sword and is surrounded by warriors. Two other remarkable sculptures are that of Bheema and Purusha Mrigam,” Dr. Balusami said.

There are sculptures of two steadfast friends, Cheraman Peruman Nayanar and Sundarar, the Tamil Saivite saint, in the temple. While there is a small sculpture of a horse at the base of that of Cheraman Peruman, there is a sculpture of an elephant on the pedestal of Sundarar's portrait.

(According to legend, Cheraman Peruman and Sundarar, reached Kailash, the abode of Siva, on a horse and an elephant respectively. There is a Chola mural masterpiece in the Brihadeeswara temple, Thanjavur, depicting their journey to Kailash).

The temple has a big masonry granary which is normally found in Cholamandalam. “The bin could have been used to store paddy during times of drought or when the temple was used as a fortress to fight battles,” said Chandrasekaran.

Dr. Balusami, who has a Ph.D. for his research on the murals belonging to the Nayak period in 14 temples in Tamil Nadu, estimated that the murals in the Satya Vageeswarar temple could have been painted during the late 17th century or 18th century CE. “They have a lot of local/regional style,” he said.

In the description of T. Satyamurthy, former superintending archaeologist, Archaeological Survey of India, the murals are “an amazing art gallery of puranic themes.” The REACH Foundation, of which Dr. Satyamurthy is one of the founders, plans to restore these murals which have been vandalised.

Hindu (http://www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/religion/article2207631.ece)

rsubbu.mdu

July 8th, 2011, 06:16 AM

Such delicate temples need to be taken over by ASI for proper upkeep, else you will see polished granite/marble floors and oil paintings all over the place.

Mr.Nellai

July 8th, 2011, 07:28 PM

^^^^ My great grand mother used to tell that even the during the British rule these paintings and temples were maintained well. Only the politicians got all the freedom, Freedom of corruption, freedom of vandalism, freedom to man handle human beings.

+

When there was a agraharam, these were maintained well, but after DMK took over the power they were forced to move out my DMK goons. After that everything started to deteriorate.

Mr.Nellai

July 20th, 2011, 03:57 AM

Tirunelveli: Hidden vault found at Siva temple

Workers who were engaged in structural renovation work at Lord Kailasanathar temple in Srivaikundam near here stumbled upon a hidden vault on Saturday night. As the news spread on Sunday, residents of Srivaikundam and nearby villages became anxious, possibly due to the treasure trove unearthed at Lord Padmanabhaswamy Temple in Thiruvananthapuram recently.� It may be noted that the workers informed about the findings to the HR&CE and police officials immediately and on Sunday, the hidden vault was unearthed in front of the officials. But, no articles were found in the hidden vault, even after digging the structure to three feet.

It may be noted that Lord Kailasanathar temple at Srivaikundam is considered as one among the nine Siva temples or ‘Nava Kailayam’. Renovation work like laying new stone plates on the floor is being undertaken in the temple by Indian National Trust For Art and Cultural Heritage (INTACH).� A square-shaped stone surrounded by four rectangular shaped stones were found in the vault. With the unearthing of the hidden chamber in this temple, devotees opined that state archaeology department should find out whether there are any such hidden chambers in other Siva temples which are part of ‘Nava Kailayam’ and in the ‘Nava Thirupathi’ temples also.

When asked, Dr RS Lal Mohan, convenor, INTACH, told Express that there was renewed interest in knowing about the hidden vaults in temples after the treasure trove was found at Lord Padmanabhaswamy Temple.� Speaking in the context of unearthing of the hidden chamber at Srivaikundam, he said that there are such vaults and chambers in many temples in Tamil Nadu and demanded that an inventory should be carried out.

IBN (http://ibnlive.in.com/news/tirunelveli-hidden-vault-found-at-siva-temple/168333-60-118.html)

kongutamizhan

July 23rd, 2011, 01:40 AM

Well a modern history!!!

Source (http://www.thuglak.com/thuglak/main.php?x=curissue/articles_05.php&startpos=1)

“காமராஜைக் கொல்ல முயற்சி!” – கே.சி.லட்சுமி நாரயணன்

ஜீவானந்தம், அய்யாமுத்து போன்ற சிந்திக்கத் தெரிந்தவர்கள் வெளியேறி விட்ட பிறகு, ஈ.வெ.ரா.வின் சுயமரியாதை இயக்கமும் ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சியும், விடுதலைப் போர் வீரர்களுக்கு எதிராக வன்முறை வழிகளை ஆவேசத்துடன் பின்பற்றின.

கூட்டங்களில் கலகம் செய்வது, கற்களை வீசி எறிவது, பாம்புகளை விடுவது, கறுப்புக் கொடிகளைக் காட்டுவது, சுதந்திரப் போராட்ட வீரர்களைத் தடி கொண்டு தாக்குவது, ஆபாசச் சொற்களில் ஏசுவது... போன்ற வன்முறைக் காரியங்களை அவர்கள் செய்தார்கள். ஆங்கிலேய ஆட்சியாளர்களின் பரிபூரணமான தூண்டுதலும், ஆதரவும் அவர்களுக்கு இருந்தன.

“விடுதலைப் போர் வீரர்கள் வன்முறைக்கு ஆளானால் திருப்பித் தாக்கக் கூடாது” என்ற மகாத்மா காந்தியின் கட்டளை அப்படியே பின்பற்றப்பட்டது. இன்றைய தினம் இதை நம்புவது கடினம். ஆனால், இவ்வாறுதான் விடுதலைப் போர் வீரர்கள், அஹிம்சை நெறி பிறழாமல் ஒவ்வொரு சத்தியாக்கிரகத்தின் போதும் நடந்து கொண்டார்கள் என்பது வரலாறு.

ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சியினரும், சுயமரியாதை இயக்கத்தினரும் விடுதலைப் போர் வீரர்களை எதிர்த்துப் பல நூறு வன்முறை நிகழ்ச்சிகளை அரங்கேற்றினார்கள். இவற்றில் பலவற்றை ம.பொ.சி.யின் ‘விடுதலைப் போரில் தமிழகம்’ என்ற ஆய்வு நூல் பட்டியல் இட்டுள்ளது.

இந்தியா சுதந்திரம் அடைவதற்காகப் போராடிய பல காங்கிரஸ் தலைவர்கள், தமிழகத்திற்கு அவ்வப்போது இயக்கப் பணிகளை ஒட்டி வந்தார்கள். அவ்வாறு வந்த மகாத்மா காந்தி, நேருஜி, பாபு ராஜேந்திர பிரசாத், அபுல்கலாம் ஆஸாத்.... போன்ற தலைவர்களை ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சியினரும், சுயமரியாதை இயக்கத்தினரும் எதிர்த்து வன்முறை ஆர்ப்பாட்டங்களை நடத்தினார்கள். தேசியத் தலைவர்கள் அவற்றைப் பொறுமையுடன் சகித்துக் கொண்டார்கள்.

பட்டுக்கோட்டை நிகழ்ச்சி

இந்தியாவின் விடுதலைக்காகப் போராடிய காங்கிரஸ் மகாசபையின் பொன்விழா நிகழ்ச்சி 1934– ஆம் ஆண்டில் நடந்தது. அந்த ஆண்டில் கட்சியின் தலைவராக பாபு ராஜேந்திர பிரசாத் விளங்கினார். அவர் விடுதலைப் போரில் பலமுறை சிறை சென்ற தீரர். அவர் காந்தியடிகளை முழுக்க முழுக்கப் பின்பற்றியவர்; அஹிம்சையின் வடிவமாகத் திகழ்ந்தவர்; தமது பெரும் செல்வத்தை அழித்து விடுதலை இயக்கத்தை வளர்த்தவர்.

இந்தியா விடுதலை அடைந்த பிறகு, பாபு ராஜேந்திர பிரசாத் இந்தியக் குடியரசுத் தலைவர் என்ற மிக உயர்ந்த பொறுப்பை வகித்தார். அவர் 1934– ஆம் ஆண்டில் தமிழகத்தில் சுற்றுப் பயணம் செய்தார். அவர் தஞ்சாவூர் மாவட்டத்திற்குச் சென்றிருந்தபோது, அவரது சுற்றுப் பயண ஏற்பாடுகளை சர்தார் வேதரத்தினம் பிள்ளை செய்திருந்தார்.

பாபு ராஜேந்திர பிரசாத் பட்டுக்கோட்டை நகருக்குச் சென்று ஒரு நிகழ்ச்சியில் கலந்து கொண்டார். அந்நாட்களில் பட்டுக்கோட்டை நகரில் சுயமரியாதை இயக்கத்தினரும், ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சியினரும் வலிமையாக இருந்தார்கள். பாபு ராஜேந்திர பிரசாத்தும், வேதரத்தினம் பிள்ளையும் கண்ணியமற்ற ஒரு கூட்டத்தில் சிக்கிக் கொண்டார்கள்.

“கூட்டத்தினர் ராஜேந்திர பிரசாத்துக்கு எதிராக ஒரு பெரிய கறுப்புக் கொடி ஆர்ப்பாட்டம் நடத்தியதுடன், சாந்த சொரூபியான அவருடைய சட்டையைப் பிடித்து இழுத்துக் கிழித்தனர். கறுப்புக் கொடி ஏந்தியவர்கள் அவரைக் குச்சியால் குத்தினர்” என்று ‘சர்தார் வேதரத்தினம் பிள்ளை வாழ்க்கை வரலாற்று நூல்’ வேதனையுடன் தெரிவிக்கிறது.

வரலாற்றுச் சிறப்புமிக்க வேதாரண்யம் உப்புச் சத்தியாக்கிரகத்தை ராஜாஜி நடத்தியபோது, அவருக்கு வலதுகரமாக விளங்கியவர் வேதரத்தினம் பிள்ளை என்பதையும், பின்னர் அவருக்கு ‘சர்தார்’ என்ற பட்டம் அளிக்கப்பட்டது என்பதையும் இங்கே குறிப்பிடலாம்.

ஒழிக்க முயற்சி

காமராஜ் ஓர் எளிய குடும்பத்தில் தோன்றியவர். அவர் மிக இளம் வயதில் விடுதலை வேட்கை கொண்டு சுதந்திரப் போராட்டத்தில் தீவிரமாகப் பங்கு கொண்டார். கட்சிப் பணிகளை நன்கு ஒருங்கிணைத்துப் பணிபுரிவதில் மிகவும் வல்லமை வாய்ந்தவர் என்று பலரும் காமராஜைப் பாராட்டிப் பேசலானார்கள். ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சியினருக்கு அவர் சிம்ம சொப்பனமாக விளங்கினார்.

காமராஜை தீர்த்துக் கட்ட நடந்த ஒரு கொடிய முயற்சியை, விடுதலைப் போராட்ட வீரரும், தமது குடும்பச் சொத்தை அழித்துத் தேசிய இயக்கத்தை வளர்த்தவரும், சென்னை மாகாண முதலமைச்சராக இருந்தவருமான பி.எஸ்.குமாரசாமி ராஜாவின் வாழ்க்கை வரலாற்று நூல் விவரிக்கிறது. அதனைப் படியுங்கள்:–

“ஒரு முறை விருதுப்பட்டி சந்தைக்குச் சென்ற வண்டிகள் இரவில் திரும்பி வருகிறபோது, ஊர் சாலையில் ஒரு மனிதர் மயக்கமுற்றுக் கிடப்பதைக் கண்ட வண்டிக்காரர்கள், ஓடோடி அருகில் சென்று பார்த்தபோது, சாலையில் கிடந்தவர், தலையில் அடிபட்டு வெளியேறிய ரத்தம் உடலெங்கும் பரவிப் பயங்கரமான தோற்றத்துடன் இருப்பதைப் பார்த்துப் பதறிப் போய் விட்டார்கள். மெல்லப் புரட்டிப் பார்த்தபோது, பி.எஸ்.கே. வீட்டிற்கு அடிக்கடி விருதுப்பட்டியிலிருந்து வருகின்ற விடுதலைப் போராட்ட வீரர் காமராஜ் என்பதை அடையாளம் தெரிந்து, திகைத்துப் பின், தூக்கி வண்டியில் கிடத்தினார்கள்.

“முதல் உதவியாக சில பச்சிலைகளைப் பறித்து வந்து அடிபட்ட இடத்தில் வைத்துக் கட்டினார்கள். வண்டியை விரைவாக ஓட்டினார்கள். ‘பளபள’வென விடிகிற நேரத்தில், பி.எஸ்.கே. வீட்டு முன்னர் வண்டியை நிறுத்தி விட்டு, உள்ளே சென்று தகவலைத் தெரிவித்ததும், ஓடி வந்தார் பி.எஸ்.கே.. வண்டியை நேராக மருத்துவமனைக்கு விடும்படி வேண்டினார். மருத்துவமனையில் ஏறத்தாழ நாற்பது நாள்கள் இருந்த காமராஜ், அங்கிருந்து ‘காங்கிரஸ் மாளிகை’க்கு வந்து ஒரு வாரம் தங்கியிருந்து, பின்னர் விருதுப்பட்டிக்குச் சென்றார். விருதுப்பட்டி ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சிக்காரர்கள், விடுதலைப் போராட்டக் காங்கிரஸ் பணிகளை விருதுப்பட்டியில் விறுவிறுப்பாக ஆற்றிக் கொண்டிருக்கும் இளைஞர் காமராஜை ஒழித்துக் கட்டும் நோக்கத்தில், இத்தகைய இழிவான நடவடிக்கைகளில் இறங்கி இருக்கிறார்களென்பதைக் காங்கிரஸ் போராட்ட வீரர்கள் பின்னால் அறிந்து கொண்டனர்.”

– இவ்வாறு ‘பி.எஸ்.குமாரசாமி ராஜா வாழ்க்கை வரலாற்று நூல்” தெரிவிக்கிறது.
(அக்காலத்தில் விருதுநகரை விருதுப்பட்டி என்று அழைப்பது வழக்கம்.)

கொல்ல முயற்சி

1935– ஆம் வருட டெல்லி சட்டசபைத் தேர்தலிலும், 1936–ஆம் வருடச் சென்னை மாகாணச் சட்டசபைத் தேர்தலிலும் விடுதலை இயக்கமான காங்கிரஸ் மகாசபை வேட்பாளர்களை ஆதரித்து சிலம்புச் செல்வர் ம.பொ.சிவஞானம் தீவிரமாகப் பிரச்சாரம் செய்தார்.

“அதனால் கோபம் கொண்ட ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சியினர், ம.பொ.சி.யை வீடு புகுந்து தாக்கிக் கொலை செய்ய முயன்றனர்.”

‘கொலை செய்ய முயற்சி’ என்ற துணைத் தலைப்பில், இந்த முயற்சி குறித்து ம.பொ.சி.யே, ‘எனது போராட்டம்’ என்ற அவரது நூலில் எழுதியிருக்கிறார்.

அந்த நூல் அவர் தி.மு.க.வினருடன் உறவு கொண்டிருந்த காலத்தில் எழுதப்பட்டது ஆகும்!

சுயமரியாதை இயக்கம் தொடர்பாக ஈ.வெ.ரா. தன் விருப்பப்படி காரியங்கள் நடத்திக் கொண்டிருந்தார். அதனை விரும்பாத சௌந்தர பாண்டியனும், அவரது சில தோழர்களும் சுயமரியாதைச் சங்கத்தைப் பதிவு செய்தார்கள். ‘ரிஜிஸ்டர்ட் சுயமரியாதை சங்கம்’ என்று அது அழைக்கப்பட்டது.

‘சுயமரியாதை இயக்கம் கடவுள் மறுப்புக் கொள்கையைக் கொண்டது இல்லை’ என்று பி.டி.ராஜன் பகிரங்கமாகக் கூறினார். 1931– ஆம் ஆண்டில் சேலம் நகரில் சுயமரியாதைச் சங்கக் கூட்டத்தை அவர் ஆரம்பித்து வைத்துப் பேசினார். அவரது பேச்சு ஈ.வெ.ரா.வின் ‘குடியரசு’ இதழில் வெளியாயிற்று.

அப்போது அவர், “சுயமரியாதை இயக்கம் நாத்திக இயக்கம் இல்லை” என்று பிரடகனம் செய்தார்.

ஏற்கெனவே, ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சியில் மிகவும் கணிசமான ஒரு பிரிவினர், ஈ.வெ.ரா.வின் கடவுள் மறுப்புக் கொள்கையை ஏற்க மறுத்தார்கள். ஈ.வெ.ரா.வுக்கும், ஜஸ்டிஸ் கட்சிக்கும் இடையே ஒரு முக்கியமான கருத்து வேறுபாடாக அது காணப்பட்டது.

பின்னர், சுயமரியாதை இயக்கத்திலும் இந்தப் பிரச்சனை கடுமையாக எழுந்தது. பி.டி.ராஜன் தீவிரமான ஆத்திகராகவே விளங்கினார். அந்நாட்களில் தமிழகத்தில் ஐயப்பன் வழிபாடு ஓர் இயக்கமாக அமைந்ததற்கு பி.டி.ராஜனின் பங்கே மிகவும் கணிசமானது என்று சொல்லுவார்கள். அவரது புதல்வர் பி.டி.ஆர். பழனிவேல் ராஜன் நெற்றியில் திருநீறு, குங்குமத்துடன்தான் எப்போதும் காணப்படுவார்.

“இந்தியாவுக்குச் சுதந்திரம் வழங்கினாலும், சென்னை மாகாணத்தை மட்டும் பிரிட்டனின் அடிமை நாடாக வைத்திருக்க வேண்டும்” என்று கெஞ்சிய ஒரு தீர்மானத்தைத் திருவாரூரில் கூடி ஈ.வெ.ரா. நிறைவேற்றினார்! விவரம் அடுத்த வாரம்.

(தொடரும்)

ஆதார நூல்கள்:

1. தியாகத் திருமகனார் பி.எஸ்.கே. (பி.எஸ்.குமாரசாமி ராஜா வாழ்க்கை வரலாறு) எழுதியவர்: ‘எழுத்துச் செம்மல்’ குன்றக் குடி பெரிய பெருமாள். வெளியிட்டோர்: அமரர் பி.எஸ்.குமாரசாமி ராஜா நூற்றாண்டு விழாக் குழு, இராஜபாளையம் (1999).

2. மறைக்காட்டில் ஒரு மாணிக்கம் (சர்தார் வேதரத்தினம் பிள்ளை வாழ்க்கை வரலாறு) வெளியிட்டோர்: கஸ்தூர்பா காந்தி கன்யா குருகுலம் வெளியீட்டுப் பகுதி, வேதாரண்யம் (1986).

3. எனது போராட்டம் (1007 பக்கங்கள்) எழுதியவர்: ம.பொ.சிவஞானம், வெளியிட்டோர்: இன்ப நிலையம், மயிலாப்பூர், சென்னை -4 (1974).

Mr.Nellai

July 23rd, 2011, 02:23 AM

^^ Thozhar jeevannantham history will be so exciting, do u have that? Also BJP once tried to kill kamaraj, but was unsuccessful

Arul Murugan

July 23rd, 2011, 02:50 AM