Quebec among most highly indebted industrial economies in the world

Red ink accounts for 94 per cent of GDP, provincial report says

Montreal — The Canadian Press Published on Saturday, Feb. 27, 2010 6:32PM EST Last updated on Saturday, Feb. 27, 2010 6:59PM EST

An analysis by the Quebec Ministry of Finance suggests the province has one of the most heavily indebted economies in the industrialized world.

The 44-page document calculates the province's total debt as 94 per cent of GDP, employing methods used by the Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development.

The government report, available on the ministry's website, compares the total provincial public debt to that of other Canadian provinces and to major industrialized nations.

Quebec ranks only below Japan, Italy, Greece and Iceland in terms of public debt as a percentage of GDP.

The report calculates public debt across Canada as 69.7 per cent of the country's GDP.

The report puts Quebec's total public debt at $285.6-billion.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec/quebec-among-most-highly-indebted-industrial-economies-in-the-world/article1484107/

this is no shock. Years of a blotted civil service, high govt spending, low population growth {until recently} and political uncertainty have drained gov't revenues and swelled spending. Then there is Hydro Quebec is so heavily indebted. All this backed up by the fact that Quebecer's propencity for blaming its problems on Ottawa for its troubles and refusing to look at how Quebec itself it is to blame for its financial situation. Also this stupid "Quebec Inc" insular economic policy and there myou have it.

Anyone want to take bets on how quickly this turns into another tiresome Quebec separation thread? My money is on sundown this evening.

When Filip decides to reply...:storm:

Welcome to the team, Quebec. Now let's go shopping!

When Filip decides to reply...:storm:

Well, we have hardly anyone left from Quebec here because of divisive and often insulting "nationalism" threads. This topic should, in theory, be a valid and interesting discussion as we need ideas to reduce public debt. But the chances of this thread being along those lines is slim.

Anyone who now has the urge to tell me that is simply a self-fulfilling prophesy is reality challenged, or new to SSC. ;)

Who owes their debt though? I'm not familiar with Quebec's economy but depending on who they owe the money to, the situation could either be eye-poppingly disastrous or it could be business as usual.

Can 94 per cent of GDP ever be considered "business as usual"?

Can 94 per cent of GDP ever be considered "business as usual"?

We all knew Quebec was in massive debt ... I don't think that is a surprise (although I never knew it could be as high as 94%) ... but the difference is whether their debt is owned by foreign nations (like Greece or Iceland) or within Canada (like Japan, which has an even higher ratio of debt : GDP).

good question koolio but still such a high debt load is not good and does it include inferstructure debt to or just money debt?

Their gigantic pension plans are probably a large part of it. That kind of debt isn't as bad.

Is it true that Quebeckers get a free ride at Quebec universities, or is that just a rumour to make other provinces look bad?

Backwater :lol:

Their gigantic pension plans are probably a large part of it. That kind of debt isn't as bad.
'Cadillac' public employee pension plans are the main reason why so many USA cities and states are in such deep financial doo-doo these days. And it is a terrible form of debt, it drains money away from necessary things that MUST be funded (like roads, police protection, fire protection, prisons, etc.) and and sends it to places where it will return nothing of value. At least here in the USA, MANY public employees head for Sunnier (and cheaper to live in!) places when they hang it up, taking all of that pension money with them, too.

Mike

They're pretty much equal to the better private sector plans. If you want the best employees, you have to pay them a decent wage. Employees with low wages simply don't work as hard.

Is it true that Quebeckers get a free ride at Quebec universities, or is that just a rumour to make other provinces look bad?

Its not a complete free ride. Its much cheaper then other provinces. I pay $1300 a semester, not including books. But about half my books I get from other students for free or discounted in price.

In retrospect, it is cheaper then school in Ontario, especially the one in Windsor, and about 4 times cheaper then schools in BC. So Quebec residents do get cheaper schooling, and its not uncommon to run into a bunch of people in my class to see people from Vancouver, Toronto, and the States. Its actually quite common. Although Non-Quebec Canadians pay about $2300(Still cheaper then most places), and America students pay about $4000(Cheaper then most places in CA, and USA).

Now with that said, there has been much in the news about tuition in Quebec rising over the next 10 years to the Ontario level of $3000-$4000. The plan has come under much criticism, but I think it is already being implemented as I have seen increases in my tuition in the last 2 semesters.

They're pretty much equal to the better private sector plans. If you want the best employees, you have to pay them a decent wage. Employees with low wages simply don't work as hard.

If only this were true 100% of the time...

Its not a complete free ride. Its much cheaper then other provinces. I pay $1300 a semester, not including books. But about half my books I get from other students for free or discounted in price.

In retrospect, it is cheaper then school in Ontario, especially the one in Windsor, and about 4 times cheaper then schools in BC. So Quebec residents do get cheaper schooling, and its not uncommon to run into a bunch of people in my class to see people from Vancouver, Toronto, and the States. Its actually quite common. Although Non-Quebec Canadians pay about $2300(Still cheaper then most places), and America students pay about $4000(Cheaper then most places in CA, and USA).

Now with that said, there has been much in the news about tuition in Quebec rising over the next 10 years to the Ontario level of $3000-$4000. The plan has come under much criticism, but I think it is already being implemented as I have seen increases in my tuition in the last 2 semesters.

How much is grad school in Ontario and Quebec? I thought about doing grad school at U of Windsor.

Depends on the program. My tuition was in the mid-2000s per semester at the University of Guelph, but that was only tuition. That didn't include books, meal plan, and housing costs (I lived at home, though).

Well i guess this should pretty much dash any hope of independence, unless they want to become a third world country :)

Their gigantic pension plans are probably a large part of it. That kind of debt isn't as bad.

Big pensions are good! I want one too :yes:

Fees are pretty high ... last year at McMaster University when I was in residence, I think I paid 14 thousand in consolidated fees (tuition, meal plan, and residence) + 2500 in scholarship that was added on top of that ... so in total it was 16500 for one year. Just tuition by itself is about 5-8 thousand range I believe.

^^Do you have the thing in Canada where the Government pays it for you, and you pay them back? Or is that totally separate?

My undergraduate tuition was around $5500 a year, and my graduate tuition is around $9000. I don't feel as though my tuition is that much, especially when I compare it with a friend I have in law school who had to take out a $100 000 dollar loan for her education and associated fees.

^^Do you have the thing in Canada where the Government pays it for you, and you pay them back? Or is that totally separate?

I can't speak for all provinces, but in Ontario we have a program through the provincial government called OSAP that loans you money for your education, though you have to pay it back. Often, however, you do not need to pay back the money in entirety.

My undergraduate tuition was around $5500 a year, and my graduate tuition is around $9000. I don't feel as though my tuition is that much, especially when I compare it with a friend I have in law school who had to take out a $100 000 dollar loan for her education and associated fees.

That isn't too bad I guess. Does your friends Uni cost $100,000/year?
The University that I'll be going to next year is going to cost me $86,000 (some thing like that) for the two year Bachelor of Journalism course. I thought that was bad until I found out that the Medical course is something like $300,000-$400,000... :nuts:

I can't speak for all provinces, but in Ontario we have a program through the provincial government called OSAP that loans you money for your education, though you have to pay it back. Often, however, you do not need to pay back the money in entirety.

Ah yeah, that sounds like what we have here.

That isn't too bad I guess. Does your friends Uni cost $100,000/year?
The University that I'll be going to next year is going to cost me $86,000 (some thing like that) for the two year Bachelor of Journalism course. I thought that was bad until I found out that the Medical course is something like $300,000-$400,000... :nuts:


No no, the $100 000 will cover the cost of her entire education.

$86 000 for a Bachelor of Journalism? That is unbelievably expensive! My entire undergraduate Honours Bachelor of Arts (4 years) cost around $25 000, and I go to perhaps the most expensive university in the country.

I feel for my poor mother paying my education.

In fact I think I feel more for her paying for my extended drinking binge in Europe this year.

I feel for my poor mother paying my education.

In fact I think I feel more for her paying for my extended drinking binge in Europe this year.

LoL! I did a study abroad program in England during my undergraduate and it scares me to think how much of my 'education' money I spent on pints. I like to think I was a loyal supporter of British pub culture and the economy :D

LoL! I did a study abroad program in England during my undergraduate and it scares me to think how much of my 'education' money I spent on pints. I like to think I was a loyal supporter of British pub culture and the economy :D

My friend puked in her purse during class today because of her epic post Canada win hangover. I was pale all class.

I'm pretty sure all Canadians in Madrid are officially alcoholics. We've had 14 day benders and sure to have them again.

No no, the $100 000 will cover the cost of her entire education.

$86 000 for a Bachelor of Journalism? That is unbelievably expensive! My entire undergraduate Honours Bachelor of Arts (4 years) cost around $25 000, and I go to perhaps the most expensive university in the country.

Ah, I could do the course at a different University, but because I failed a lot of my subjects in high school I basically have to "buy" my way into Uni (Other option is to wait a few years). Universities here are quite expensive, I guess you could say; especially considering more often than not, you don't learn much in them.

“The cost of obtaining a U.S. degree is among the highest in the world and rising, which may discourage international students,” says a 2007 report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office. Globally, the average cost of a public education in the U.S. ($4,587) was second only to Australia ($5,289).

On a global scale, the one I'll be going to is something like the 5th most expensive University in the world. Which just shows how ridiculous the pricing obviously is! Seriously, there are so many better colleges and universities :nuts:.

To my surprise, it was more expensive than Harvard, Yale, Canada’s Quest University, The American University of Paris, University of Buckingham. It only lost out to The George Washington University, Kenyon College, Vassar College & Sarah Lawrence College.

:nuts::nuts::nuts:

Yay, I've managed to drag another thread so far off-topic it isn't even funny ;)

Quest University? I think you mean Queen's ;). Queen's is a great school, among the best in the country, and they have a castle in England!

Heh, well I don't know Canadian schools :lol: but here, the best one isn't the most expensive. I think Quest is like a bit more than $20,000/year.

I can't speak for all provinces, but in Ontario we have a program through the provincial government called OSAP that loans you money for your education, though you have to pay it back. Often, however, you do not need to pay back the money in entirety.

How do you have to pay it back? what are the conditions? what if you leave the country for good?

Over here you only pay the money back if you earn more than $43.000 a year I believe and it comes out of your taxes so practically you never have to write a cheque to them, it's all taken care of automatically.

Also if you work abroad or move overseas you will never have to pay it back.

Heh, well I don't know Canadian schools :lol: but here, the best one isn't the most expensive. I think Quest is like a bit more than $20,000/year.

Quest is a new BC university founded in 2002. Most people in Canada haven't even heard of it, so I'm surprised that you have. Quest is far more expensive than regular Canadian universities because it is private. The cheapest tuitions are in Quebec.

McGill would be my top choice in that province, but it might differ depending on your field of study.

Ah my mistake, I've never heard of BC's Quest University.


Not only does McGill provide a fantastic level of education, it's campus is stunning!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/27/54819947_e978607663_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_quan_nguyen/54819947/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4015/4252681931_7096f40fc0_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tmab2003/4252681931/

How do you have to pay it back? what are the conditions? what if you leave the country for good?

Over here you only pay the money back if you earn more than $43.000 a year I believe and it comes out of your taxes so practically you never have to write a cheque to them, it's all taken care of automatically.

Also if you work abroad or move overseas you will never have to pay it back.

Source: http://accesswindow.osap.gov.on.ca/ENG/not_secure/repay_howwhen_12.htm

"During the six-month period after your studies end, you must contact the National Student Loans Service Centre (NSLSC) and/or the financial institution holding your loans to make arrangements to repay your loan(s). You are not required to make any loan payments during the six month period.

For your full-time loans, interest will begin to accrue on your outstanding loans during your six-month grace period. If you choose to make voluntary payments, they will be applied against your outstanding loan principal."

...

"Your loans go into repayment on the first day of the seventh month following the month your studies ended. This is called your "consolidation date". For example if you finish school in April, your consolidation date would be the first day of November. You are required to submit your first monthly payment by the last day of the seventh month following the month your studies ended.

Before your consolidation date, the NSLSC will send you what is called the Consolidation Agreement. It tells you how much you owe, your expected monthly payment and the interest rate. You are required to sign and return a copy of the Consolidation Agreement."


...


There are ways to get around paying back the full amount. Bursaries, scholarships, and the like. Also, upon completion of one's education there is the possibility of negotiating how much one will repay, though this isn't advertised. I guess you could flee the country and stop paying back the loan, but the interest will continue to accumulate while you are gone ;)

^^ That's an awful system! I can't believe that they charge you interest and that you have to pay it back straight away! How are poor people supposed to study then!

Poor people don't study! :lol: They get jobs at Wal-Mart then descend into alcoholism, drug abuse and depression! :) The way God intended! :yes:

Its also stupid things like thier $7/day daycare system.

Its kinda funny that in terms of finances quebec is probably the most American of all the provinces...........this attitude that you can have4 your cake and eat it too and not worry about the bills as they can pay them "later" but now later has arrived and they haven't got a penny in the bank.

^^ That's an awful system! I can't believe that they charge you interest and that you have to pay it back straight away! How are poor people supposed to study then!

The poor can very easily get an undergraduate education, it's the middle classes that fin it most tough. Also, there are lots of bursaries and such that make it so one does not pay back as much as he or she borrowed. I agree that the interest is ridiculous.

The middle class is stuck in a crack between "so poor the government pays for you" and "rich enough to afford it". Another argument for provincially funded higher education. The transition from high school to college or university should be as seamless as the transition from elementary school to high school.

^^ That's an awful system! I can't believe that they charge you interest and that you have to pay it back straight away! How are poor people supposed to study then!

They're pretty flexible, but it's designed that way so people don't take advantage of the system. If you're stuck, re-payment options are always negotiable.

They're pretty flexible, but it's designed that way so people don't take advantage of the system. If you're stuck, re-payment options are always negotiable.

Education should never be about money! Over here if I want to study I don't need to contemplate whether I can afford it or not, the government will foot the bill.

Education should never be about money! Over here if I want to study I don't need to contemplate whether I can afford it or not, the government will foot the bill.

The Government foots the bill for University fees? :eek:
That is amazing! I thought students had to pay fees?

The Government foots the bill for University fees? :eek:
That is amazing! I thought students had to pay fees?

No, there a number of countries that pay 100% of the bill at university. The catch is that it's often much harder to get in. I'm not sure if Australia adheres to that generalization. I don't know how accurate the map below is and it would vary widely depending on how many foreign students each country accepts. It's also 6 year old data.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-top-ten-countries/world-top-ten-university-students-countries-map.gif
http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-top-ten-countries/world-top-ten-university-students-countries-map.gif

Well as long as you meet the necessary requirements of the course, I don't think there's nothing holding you back from going to University here. Though I could be wrong.

Are Canadian Universities generally quite full?


Students at Australian Universities,

Australian National University : 12,482
Monash University : 55,000
University of Queensland : 40,512
Griffith University : 37,000+
Bond University : 3,200
University of Melbourne : 35,533
University of Sydney : 47,775
University of New South Wales : 44,581
Queensland University of Technology : 40,000
Victoria University : 57,154

Are Canadian Universities generally quite full?



Yes, there are more students applying to university than ever before, especially in the Toronto area.

In Toronto alone there are over 130 000 university students and over 60 000 college students.

The university here had to open a campus outside of Toronto to keep enrolment up. Average class sizes are below 50 but it costs just as much as the others.

That's quite a lot, I'll find how many in Sydney or Melbourne.

Edit:

Sydney : 224,784
Melbourne : 294,567

I don't know whether this point was made clear or not but in case there is any confusion, the interest on the student loans starts to accrue six months AFTER you graduate, so it is not like the interest is piling on top of the principal borrowed amount while you're still in university. Granted, even that is not ideal, but they have to put some sort of measures to ensure that the loans are returned on a timely fashion so that they get it back while the value of amount of money you borrowed is not too far off from the current value ... also, unlike banks, they are not going to hound you for the money back and ruin you financially if you are unable to pay it all within a certain time frame. There is some flexibility.

Either way, even without the student loans, the government already subsidizes the tuition fees so that what we are paying is actually about 1/4 of what the actual tuition fee would have been had the universities not been funded by the government ... I think that is true in Ontario ... unis are probably even more subsidized in Quebec for the locals.

This shows you enrollment by school and province. Largest one is University of Quebec at 87,000 followed by University of Toronto at 75,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Canada#cite_note-7

Some data on enrollment. Apparently there is over 1 million students.

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/.3ndic.1t.4r@-eng.jsp?iid=56

The Toronto area needs another university, or the satellite campuses of UofT (Mississauga or Scarborough) should be spun off and enlarged into a stand-alone university.

In Austria it's even 'worse', not only that education is free but if you work X amount of years and then enroll into uni you get something like 800€ a month for the duration of your studies.

The Government foots the bill for University fees? :eek:
That is amazing! I thought students had to pay fees?

I never paid a single cent out of my pocket for university. I only started repaying some back recently since I work full time, but even then it's just a micro amount of money coming out from my payslip automatically through the taxation system which I don't even notice. Also while I was at university the government would PAY ME $800 (this support money you never have to pay it back) a month to support myself, so at the end of the day I am the one who wins :lol:

Well as long as you meet the necessary requirements of the course, I don't think there's nothing holding you back from going to University here. Though I could be wrong.

Are Canadian Universities generally quite full?

There are 83 universities in Canada that are independent post-secondary education institutions with degree-granting authority. Below I've listed the enrollment at each for the year 2008-2009. I've put an asterisk next to those schools I consider the most 'established'. I have to admit that some of those BC schools like Kwantlen, Thompson Rivers, Fraser Valley, and Vancouver Island are a bit of a mystery to me.


British Columbia: 162,697
Capilano University: 6,615
Emily Carr University of Art and Design: 1,898*
Fairleigh Dickinson University: 78
Kwantlen Polytechnic University: 16,811
Quest University: 142
Royal Roads University: 4,272*
Simon Fraser University: 30,013*
Thompson Rivers University: 13,172
Trinity Western University: 2,860
University of British Columbia: 50,330*
University Canada West: 151
University of the Fraser Valley: 8,164
University of Northern British Columbia: 3,558
University of Victoria: 18,354*
Vancouver Island University: 6,279

Alberta: 125,555
University of Alberta: 35,490*
Athabasca University: 31,250
University of Calgary: 27,760*
University of Lethbridge: 8,230*
Mount Royal University: 13,278
Grant MacEwan University: 9,547

Saskatchewan: 31,630
First Nations University of Canada: 840
University of Regina: 12,170*
University of Saskatchewan: 18,620*

Manitoba: 41,654
Brandon University: 3,260*
Canadian Mennonite University: 1,600
University of Manitoba: 26,800*
Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface: 984
University of Winnipeg: 9,010*

Ontario: 436,530
Algoma University: 1,150
Brock University: 17,006*
Carleton University: 24,250*
Dominican University College: 244
University of Guelph: 22,080*
Lakehead University: 8,050*
Laurentian University: 8,800*
McMaster University: 26,070 *
Nipissing University: 4,710
Ontario College of Art & Design: 3,450*
University of Ontario Institute of Technology: 5,090
University of Ottawa: 36,460*
Queen's University: 20,550*
Redeemer University College: 850
Royal Military College of Canada: 1,700*
Ryerson University: 31,770*
University of Toronto: 74,760*
Trent University: 8,060*
University of Waterloo: 24,160*
University of Western Ontario: 34,100*
Wilfrid Laurier University: 14,750*
University of Windsor: 16,180*
York University: 52,290*

Quebec: 286,108
Bishop's University: 2,260*
Concordia University: 43,944*
École de technologie supérieure: 4,680
École nationale d'administration publique: 1,880
École Polytechnique de Montréal: 5,550*
HEC Montréal: 11,980*
Institut national de la recherche scientifique: 480
McGill University Montreal: 32,514*
Université de Montréal: 55,540*
Université de Sherbrooke: 19,500*
Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue: 2,650
Université du Québec en Outaouais: 5,450
Université du Québec à Chicoutimi: 6,170
Université du Québec à Montréal: 39,670*
Université du Québec à Rimouski: 5,430
Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières: 10,610*
Université Laval: 37,800*

New Brunswick: 22,956
Bethany Bible College: 300
Crandall University: 685
Université de Moncton: 6,219*
Mount Allison University: 2,486*
University of New Brunswick: 10,587*
St. Stephen's University: 100
St. Thomas University: 2,579*

Prince Edward Island: 4,435
University of Prince Edward Island: 4,435*

Nova Scotia: 42,628
Acadia University: 3,621*
Atlantic School of Theology: 125
Cape Breton University: 3,107*
Dalhousie University: 15,970*
University of King's College: 1,169*
Mount Saint Vincent University: 3,963*
Nova Scotia Agricultural College: 904
Nova Scotia College of Art and Design: 1,027*
Saint Francis Xavier University: 4,875*
Saint Mary's University: 7,281*
Université Sainte-Anne: 586

Newfoundland and Labrador: 18,172
Memorial University of Newfoundland: 18,172*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Canada


Canadian Total: 1,172,365

The Toronto area needs another university, or the satellite campuses of UofT (Mississauga or Scarborough) should be spun off and enlarged into a stand-alone university.

What about upgrading one of the degree-granting colleges to a university? I expect it would be easier to start a new college than a new university, though it would make sense to split UTM or UTSC off. Maybe merge Humber North and Guelph-Humber into a university too--let Humber-Lakeshore and the new Orangeville campus stand on their own. Southern Ontario as a whole would benefit from a new university, really.

Interesting, this thread started as a report of the dire financial situation facing a unit of government and it has morphed into a discussion on a way to increase the drain on that treasury.

:nuts:

Mike

Anyone want to take bets on how quickly this turns into another tiresome Quebec separation thread? My money is on sundown this evening.

Looks like you've lost your money. :cool:

Interesting, this thread started as a report of the dire financial situation facing a unit of government and it has morphed into a discussion on a way to increase the drain on that treasury.

Yeah, because a skilled workforce and educated population does absolutely nothing to create economic growth and increase government revenue. That kind of thinking is just silly!

:nuts:

They are both good points.

BC's numbers are exagerated as TRU, UFV, Kwantlen, Capilano, Van Isl, are "university colleges" which means that one half or more of the students are working towards college diploma's so does not reflect the true university-only enrollment. It would be akin to including UWO with Fanshawe or UManitoba with Red River College.