This is my first post here. Hi to all. I must say that this is one great forum here:)

I'm browsing through different pictures of trains on this forum but was unable to find any that has the solution for disabled peoples. How is resolved a problem of disabled persons with wheelchairs that want to travel by train? Particularly when there is need to lift them up to board the train, such as in photographs below. If there is anyone that has any picture that showing please post it here.

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/u_lift/4.jpg

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/u_lift/1.jpg

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/u_lift/2.jpg

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/u_lift/3.jpg

Or something like this.
http://www.u-lift.se/images/tva-300-ser-03.jpg

There are outdoor mobile platforms in stations in Belgium and France to place people with wheelchairs in trains. But never saw them used... Are you doing a work on them? Or you are concerned by this subject for private reasons?

Thanks for answering :)
There is more than one reason why I'm interested in this subject. I have some friends that have a disability problem, and they are often telling me that they would like to travel by train, but they can't board on and off because of a big gap between the station platforms and the passenger coach. All because there are wide space and other accommodations for them once when they manage to go in it. So when professor proposes us to do the research about this problem, and I accepted. All the data that is gathered in this subject will be in some use to people with disabilities when they decide to go on a trip and also to us students of mechanical engineering that want to help them.


About France, you must be thinking about this:


http://www.globalaccessnews.com/images/Smith%202010/rail%20lift.jpg

http://connectculture.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/miro_train.jpg?w=500

Yes they are part of the solution too, but much less practical than those implemented on the coaches.

All the best.

Well, the most practical solution, is to just have the floor of the train level with the platform. This is getting more and more common.

I agree, that will be in the future. However, in this time there is a need for the transit solution because the life span of one passenger coach is 30-40 years so railway companies won't throw them away just like that. They need a solution (that will make possible to help disabled persons and other: mothers with baby carriages, and even you with heavy luggage to get in) until the end of life of passenger coach is reached. This is a transit solution for this problem. So if you see the solution while you travel, please make a picture and attach it here:)

All the best.

I agree, that will be in the future. However, in this time there is a need for the transit solution because the life span of one passenger coach is 30-40 years so railway companies won't throw them away just like that. They need a solution (that will make possible to help disabled persons and other: mothers with baby carriages, and even you with heavy luggage to get in) until the end of life of passenger coach is reached. This is a transit solution for this problem. So if you see the solution while you travel, please make a picture and attach it here:)


The problem with wheelchair lifts is that you need people to operate them. So this works for long distance trains and large stations, but doesn't work for regional trains that mostly call at unstaffed halts. That's why you don't see wheelchair lifts on trains in Switzerland. (You will see them at the larger stations).

It is for this reason that local authorities in Switzerland have set deadlines for all regional trains to be barrier free. BLS had to solve it, but did indeed need to find a solution of what to do with older carriages. The result was this:
http://www.bls-info.ch/bls605.jpg
They took a 40 year old carriage, cut it in half, and added an articulated low floor section in the middle. They then added one or two such a carriages to each existing consist.

The entrance looks like this:

http://www.bls-info.ch/bls600-7.jpg

That is what "barrier free" public transport should look like...

About France, you must be thinking about this:

http://connectculture.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/miro_train.jpg?w=500

Yes they are part of the solution too, but much less practical than those implemented on the coaches.

All the best.
Yes, it's an interesting concept. But there is no such problem with Eurostar in England: platforms are highter...this is the best way to let people in wheelchairs boarding the train. In France, some stations have "camel platforms" now....how to save a littele bit of money when solving only half of problem.

@ K

You are absolutely right. Wheelchair lifts that are stationed on the station platform have many disadvantages. It has to be announced in advanced that person wants to go off the train so the station staff can be prepared. Les complicated solution is lifting mechanism that, is integrated on the entrance of coach. And of course the best solution is when the station platform and floor of the passenger coach are on the same level. Now, there is the financial problem. Which of these solutions is most practical for the limited budget? The aim is a quick solution that can as soon as possible to make "barrier free" travel for all. I like Switzerland's solution and totally agreed with you that are what "barrier free" public transport should look like. However, it is too expensive for now for some developing countries. People with disabilities will be long waiting for the realization of something like this. Hope you understand.

@eomer

What are "camel platforms"?

@ K

Les complicated solution is lifting mechanism that, is integrated on the entrance of coach.

I doubt that a lift integrated in the coach is less complicated. You will still need someone to operate it I suppose.

What are "camel platforms"?

I think that refers to platforms that are only partially raised. For example on one line that I know the company that operates there has decided to only raise the complete platform to the level of the train entrance whenever a station is completely renovated. In the mean time they just partially raise a part of the platform so that two cars in each train are accessible. The result is a platform with "humps".
One reason for doing this is that raising the complete platform can be quite complicated, as it also involves modifying platform accesses, shelters, stairs etc. So this is often better done as part of a complete station remodeling.
That means that on stations with new, completely raised platform wheelchair users have to make sure they board in a car that will stop next to a raised platform section at their destination stop, but there are signs showing them where that is.
I commuted on that line for three years, and there was often a wheelchair user taking the same train I did. He didn't need more time getting on and of the train than I did. It was truly barrier free.

It seems we will always have a problem with international trains.
Different countries have different standards for the height of the platforms.
So these international trains would still need some lift system.

see platform height discussion (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1048797&highlight=platform+height)

Sorry about a delay.
I doubt that a lift integrated in the coach is less complicated. You will still need someone to operate it I suppose.
Well, yes but every train already has a staff, which has a duty to check tickets, and to worry about passenger safety, so there are no extra charges for railway company.


I think that refers to platforms that are only partially raised. For example on one line that I know the company that operates there has decided to only raise the complete platform to the level of the train entrance whenever a station is completely renovated. In the mean time they just partially raise a part of the platform so that two cars in each train are accessible. The result is a platform with "humps".
One reason for doing this is that raising the complete platform can be quite complicated, as it also involves modifying platform accesses, shelters, stairs etc. So this is often better done as part of a complete station remodeling.
That means that on stations with new, completely raised platform wheelchair users have to make sure they board in a car that will stop next to a raised platform section at their destination stop, but there are signs showing them where that is.
I commuted on that line for three years, and there was often a wheelchair user taking the same train I did. He didn't need more time getting on and of the train than I did. It was truly barrier free.
I see that is an interesting solution too. Someone says that 1 picture speaks more than 1000 words:) So can you make a picture of that please. Thanks. I need as much as possible different solutions for this problem so the people can choose what is the best for them at a given time.

It seems we will always have a problem with international trains.
Different countries have different standards for the height of the platforms.
So these international trains would still need some lift system.

see platform height discussion (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1048797&highlight=platform+height)
Interesting subject, actually, I Googled it and read it and after that I decided to join to this forum. In hope that people would show solidarity and take part in this. Making something like gallery of (at this moment) different solutions of barrier-free transport, whether it is a low floor train, moving ramp-lift on train stations and or lifts integrated on passenger coach. And report of countries where there are no solutions at all in this subject.
Comparing experiences with different solutions and discussion is most welcome.

Sorry about a delay.

Well, yes but every train already has a staff, which has a duty to check tickets, and to worry about passenger safety, so there are no extra charges for railway company.

Not all trains have on board staff. In Switzerland and Germany it is quite common for trains to have only a driver on board. Also for regional trains in Switzerland the standard dwell time at a station is 50 seconds. Not enough for the use of an on board lift.


I see that is an interesting solution too. Someone says that 1 picture speaks more than 1000 words:) So can you make a picture of that please. Thanks. I need as much as possible different solutions for this problem so the people can choose what is the best for them at a given time.


I'll see if I can find a picture.


Comparing experiences with different solutions and discussion is most welcome.

The aim in Switzerland is to make local transport barrier free in a way that allows disabled people to take part in every day life, go shopping, commute to jobs. I think that is something that is certainly worthwile for a society to pursue.

Ofcourse it has to be practical. You don't want solutions that increase vehicle dwell times, as that makes it harder for the operator to remain punctual. So in local tranport level boarding is supposed to become the norm. And that not just for trains. New trams have level boarding too, and buses have a floor that is so low that a simple ramp that flips out is sufficient.
For long distance trains the solution is the moveable elevator at the railwaystation. Long distance trains only stop at staffed stations, have longer dwell times, but often have to operate over territories with different standard platform heights. So mobile lifts are here the only practical solution.

If you're interested in the interesting things the Swiss Public transport does to make life easier for the blind we can start a discussion about that too...

Well, the Switzerland and Germany are countries that others can take, for example, in how to solve those problems. That's for shore.

Not all trains have on board staff. In Switzerland and Germany it is quite common for trains to have only a driver on board.

Ok, I assume that problem is already solved with low-floor trains, so there is no need for extra staff for this. And also it is cheaper to employ 1+ man/woman to take care of safety during travel, then 100+ on every train station, just a thought.

Ofcourse it has to be practical. You don't want solutions that increase vehicle dwell times, as that makes it harder for the operator to remain punctual.

Punctuality is important. However, I'm shore that max 5 minutes for boarding is something that people would understand. Aim is to people get used to disabled people have wright (and that they can and want to) to travel same as everybody else. Later there will come better solutions.


If you're interested in the interesting things the Swiss Public transport does to make life easier for the blind we can start a discussion about that too...


For now in this subject I think it will be best to keep the subject on rail vehicles with barding problems for people with wheelchairs or the subject will become fuzzy. You can open another subject for peoples with other types of disabilities and other means of transportations.

A rather easy and cheap solution(what K_ already mentioned) to enable barrier-free access is to use a low floor car for old trains. An example is Tatra KT6. Yes, it's a tram, but the same solution can be used on trains as well:
http://lauri.1g.fi/joukkol/kuvat/070518/tttk96_01.jpg

One car per train(tram) is enough. You can still use old trains and don't have to spend money on employing people for the wheelchair lifts. Since that car isn't powered, it's pretty cheap to build.

Great, I like that solution. It would be nice if you can give some data that describe a photo more closely such as state, city and line.

Edit.
Sorry, I overlooked info that you give.

Public_transport_in_Tallinn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_in_Tallinn)

I'm looking at beautiful pictures of Slovakia (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=802766), and I noticed that they have this type of coaches and low platforms on the stations. How and did they deal with the problem that we are talking about in this thread?


http://www.zelpage.cz/story/bdteer_zssk/bdteer_dvere.jpg

A rather easy and cheap solution(what K_ already mentioned) to enable barrier-free access is to use a low floor car for old trains. An example is Tatra KT6.

Another example from Zürich:

http://photo.proaktiva.eu/tram/zurich/090623.04.jpg

However in this case the extra bogie is powered, as trams in Zürich have to be able to climb steep grades.

Another example, in this case a train:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/SZU_Uetlibergbahn_524.jpg/800px-SZU_Uetlibergbahn_524.jpg

The trainset is from 1992, but the middle car has only been added in recent years.

Punctuality is important. However, I'm shore that max 5 minutes for boarding is something that people would understand.

The problem is that the person has to get off the train too. This means that if five minutes is accepted that one passenger in a wheelchair can delay a train for 10 minutes. That means that lots of people will miss connections. It also means that the return working this train might have to perform could leave late too. it is not uncommon for regional trains to have a turnaround of only five minutes at the end of the line.

What about this ?

It seems we will always have a problem with international trains.
Different countries have different standards for the height of the platforms.
So these international trains would still need some lift system.

What about this ?

For international trains it seems that mobile lifts at the stations are for the moment the only practical solution.

Making local and regional transport barrier free is possible, and it serves the purpose of enabling wheelchair bound people to get around at their leisure well. The best way to achieve this is to just have level boarding. This way they (and other people with reduced mobility) can board and alight easily and without needing assistance. I see people in wheelchairs boarding our local trains quite regularly.

With long distance and international trains the problem is harder. It is a lot easier to match platform and train floor levels on a regional service. Long distance trains are all over Europe, and they have to fit the UIC standard design. High speed trains are again another matter. I think that for the foreseeable future mobile lifts operated by station staff is the only solution here. The railways at least try to make it easy by having one central telephonenumber you can call to arrange for assistance.

I however don't think there is much use for train installed lifts, for reasons I've already mentioned.

I disagree with, you because it is harder for station employees to look-for wright door of the train. All that in the rush with a platform crowded with people and to properly position the lift, than with those that are already integrated on board the train. It is simpler that the conductor has the obligation to take care of that.

I disagree with, you because it is harder for station employees to look-for wright door of the train.

That's rarely a problem, as they usually know where the person they are helping of is. On Swiss double decker IC trains they always put wheelchairs in the first class car right behind the engine, as this is the car that has the accessible toilet, and this is also the only car where the drinks trolley also serves the lower deck. People in wheelchairs deserve coffee too...
In any case, the help is always arranged in advance, and the person helping someone on board can always call ahead to the station where this person will alight.


All that in the rush with a platform crowded with people and to properly position the lift, than with those that are already integrated on board the train. It is simpler that the conductor has the obligation to take care of that.

I have actually never encountered an on board lift, and I travel trains a lot. Searching the web you don't get many examples. I think they are rare for a reason. Don't forget you would need two lifts (one on each side) in a sufficient number of traincars. These also need to be quite reliable. The moving lifts they use at the stations however are quite simple, and rarely break down. And it's easy to have a few of them around at the bigger stations.

Ok this is becoming a discussion about which solution is better. It is not bad at all but my primarily intention is to give as much as examples about how this problem is solved in different countries at this very moment (that had not yet implemented low floor trains). So that people can decide on they own, which is best for them. And also for disabled people who want to travel to see what to expect, examples such as Slovakia, Hungary, Belarus etc.

I'm looking at beautiful pictures of Slovakia (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=802766), and I noticed that they have this type of coaches and low platforms on the stations. How and did they deal with the problem that we are talking about in this thread?

Not every coach is barrier free (as the one posted by you), but there are coaches which have necessary equipment to deal with disabled persons.

These are the newest ones (Bdgmeer):
http://www.zelpage.cz/news_n/bdghmeer_11.jpg
http://www.zelpage.cz/news_n/bdghmeer_12.jpg
http://www.zelpage.cz/news_n/bdghmeer_13.jpg

http://railpage.net/uploads/files//DU_Bdghmeer0703w.jpg
http://railpage.net/uploads/files//DU_Bdghmeer0705w.jpg

http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/201001/P3070037.jpg
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200902/P7300005.jpg
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200902/P7300013.jpg
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200902/P7300015.jpg

If you want to see it from more angles just tell me:D.

Older ones (BDsheer) look like this:
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200705/P7170476.jpg
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200705/P7170479.jpg
http://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/200705/P7170480.jpg

Can you please stop spamming in almost EVERY railway thread?

Can you please stop spamming in almost EVERY railway thread?

I am very sorry about that:( My intention was not spamming, just no one is answering to this thread for an entire week. So I post only to certain countries to people visit this thread and only there where there is an obvious problem for disabled people to board the train according to images which I have seen that are already posted. So sorry again you just misapprehended me.

Not every coach is barrier free (as the one posted by you), but there are coaches which have necessary equipment to deal with disabled persons.


If you want to see it from more angles just tell me:D.




Great, thanks! :) Yes, it would be nice if you could post more images ( particularly when in use) :)

I know that Austria's railjet trains have an internal wheelchair lift. Afaik it is located at one end of the train, where there are also accessible toilets. A nice touch is, that passengers in wheelchairs travel in first class, with a second class ticket.

Up till a few years ago, lifts such as the ones from France, were a common sight on most Austrian trainstations. These days they can be rarely seen and I wonder myself how wheelchairs are lifted into the long distance trains, which - unlike regional trains - are not wheelchair accessible.

I found a video on youtube where you can see this wheelchair lift in action:

fsWQvBJx_rs

here's a photo:
http://www.bizeps.or.at/bilder/railjet_hebe.JPG
source: http://www.bizeps.or.at/news.php?nr=9168

Thanks.

Spain

Plan de accesibilidad universal de RENFE / RENFE ACCESSIBILITY PLAN FOR DISABLED

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France

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This is a fascinating topic, heights of platforms, low or high platforms.

In America, the height of platforms differs.

In Northeast Corridor, all the major stations are high level platforms, along with some midsized stations, while small stations are all low level platforms.

Outside of Northeast corridor only place where theres high level platform is the Metra Electric railline near Chicago, and parts of South Shore rail line.