Love it or hate it, this road will soon be U/C with tolls. But no matter what you think of it you have to check out the web site.

It's the best web site I have ever seen for a major road development and probbaly one of the best web sites of any type. It's fast, slick and has stacks of info and interactive features:

http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au

Check out these mad interchanges:

Ringwood Bypass/Maroondah Highway:
http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html/images/info/imag/info_imag_ring_look.jpg

Monash Freeway:
http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html/images/info/imag/info_imag_mona_look.jpg

Princes Highway:
http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html/images/info/imag/info_imag_prin_look.jpg

Mornington Peninsula Freeway:
http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html/images/info/imag/info_imag_morn_look.jpg

I wondered what the hell they were going to do with Heatherton Road / Princes HWY / Mitcham-Franga part. Looks like you won't be able to access Heatherton Road and Princes HWY anymore, the current interestion's a POS anyhow.

Since when did they make Monash / MF-T interchange a fully fledged one???

Co-incidence they've shown a very wide median strip?

The Monash Freeway interchange isn't quite fully fledged because you won't be able turn south onto the tollway when travelling west on the Monash and you won't be able to turn east onto the Monash when travelling north on the tollway.

The website says that there will be options for heavy rail and light rail, I presume that means down the middle of the freeway which would be just plain stupid A railway down the middle of the freeway just wouldn't work as the stations could only be used for park and ride because you can't develop an activity centre around a station in the middle of a freeway or on the adjacent parklands.

I think they will leave the option open to give the appearance that they are taking into account future public transport provision, but in reality it would never get built and they would be better off narrowing the freeway and reducing it's impact.

I wondered what the hell they were going to do with Heatherton Road / Princes HWY / Mitcham-Franga part. Looks like you won't be able to access Heatherton Road and Princes HWY anymore, the current interestion's a POS anyhow.

Since when did they make Monash / MF-T interchange a fully fledged one???

Co-incidence they've shown a very wide median strip?

The website says its being built with consideration for future rail links in the corridor.

What a great website. I too think it would have to be the best web site for any roadproject in Australia. Its informative and provides interactive maps and plans. I for one, can't wait to see this project completed.

I'm a little concerned that the state is providing a good website and domain and thus incurring costs that are normally saddled on the BOOT concession holder...

The Monash Freeway interchange isn't quite fully fledged because you won't be able turn south onto the tollway when travelling west on the Monash and you won't be able to turn east onto the Monash when travelling north on the tollway.

yeah it seems to be some modified (handicapped?) 3-stack, yet sprawling over more space than the M4-M7 4-stack interchange U/C...


The website says that there will be options for heavy rail and light rail, I presume that means down the middle of the freeway which would be just plain stupid A railway down the middle of the freeway just wouldn't work as the stations could only be used for park and ride because you can't develop an activity centre around a station in the middle of a freeway or on the adjacent parklands.

it's a fob.
(you can, though, build a bus interchange at the concourse level under the freeway, or over the freeway I suppose)

I think they will leave the option open to give the appearance that they are taking into account future public transport provision, but in reality it would never get built and they would be better off narrowing the freeway and reducing it's impact.

uhuh. exactly.

If that pic of Ringwood doesn't screem "Give me highrise", then I don't know what does!

How ironic, "swap the traffic tangle... for some driving freedom... mor jobs and opportunities". What a load of bullshit!!! It sounds like a bloody car advertisement.

What a great website. I too think it would have to be the best web site for any roadproject in Australia. Its informative and provides interactive maps and plans.

OMG, you are so right, that website rocks!! I've just spent the last hour cruising around the aerial views of the suburbs and it is superb! What I wouldn't give to have aerial maps like that of all of Australia's metro areas!!! :drool:

"Get home sooner... Or stay later... Less traffic means more fishing!"

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT!!!

I've never seen so much propaganda advertising a new freeway.

Interesting site, although doesn't state where the toll points will be.

I thought that the winning bidder consortium hasn't been announced yet?

The website says that there will be options for heavy rail and light rail, I presume that means down the middle of the freeway which would be just plain stupid A railway down the middle of the freeway just wouldn't work as the stations could only be used for park and ride because you can't develop an activity centre around a station in the middle of a freeway or on the adjacent parklands.

I think they will leave the option open to give the appearance that they are taking into account future public transport provision, but in reality it would never get built and they would be better off narrowing the freeway and reducing it's impact.

Of course, it's just to cover up the fact that they aren't using a balanced approach. It's rather ironic though, people still asking for a railway line to Rowville so they offer a freeway with pointless a rail reservation! *coughs*

I thought that the winning bidder consortium hasn't been announced yet?

It hasn't, your taxes are paying for the very swish website. Which is unusual, though overall probably not a large expense in the overall tender process.


---

a $422 million contribution to the Scoresby Freeway, provided the Victorian Government reverses its decision to impose tolls. (emphasis added)

So, the Commonwealth is sticking to its guns. The project must be considered to be up in the air still then?

Absolutely spectacular website.

Lovin' this project. My special eastern suburbs will be totally different when I return home. The major interchanges all look nice, but what concerns me are the smaller ones. i.e. half assed.

You see, there's one major problem with Melbourne's, and I assume all of Australia's freeways and the intersections they share with major roads. Stop Lights.

Traffic coming off and wanting to get onto the freeway are hurded up to and stopped at right turn lane lights for two or three minutes while the highway in front tries to clear a km of traffic from the last right turn green light.

http://www.moviemarshal.com/pics/interchange-melb.jpg

In Toronto, in fact all over Canada and the U.S. where I've been, inluding this intersection at Hurontario and the QEW I take everyday, traffic coming onto and off the freeway enjoy a nice simple clover leaf interchange. Nothing too big to spoil the area, but kind enough for everyone to be able to zip onto and off. No overpasses, (aside from the freeway over the street) no stop lights, just a breeze each way, and the smaller road flows as though there was no freeway there at all.

http://www.moviemarshal.com/pics/interchange-toro.jpg

It's such a simple concept that hasn't found its way to Melbourne for some illogical reason, and disappointing to see its not included in this proposal.

Another thing we're missing out on.. Separated Collector and Express lanes on the same freeway each way. The 401 in Toronto is a sight to behold. Everyone cruises down that motherf^&#er at 130kph (when it's not peak hour gridlock).. I love it. Although in some places it's an 18 lane monstrosity, 5 Collectors and 4 Express each way. I believe it's supposed to be the busiest freeway in the world? What I'm trying to say is the city has a nice freeway system, we could learn a thing or two from it. Although we can certainly ignore their frustrating 50kmh on arterial roads.. 60kph is an absolute rarity and luxury on non-freeway Toronto roads. Don't even think about 80kph roads ie Springvale and Burwood Hwy, they don't exist.. at least I haven't seen them. Imagine 50kph on a road like Punt or Wantirna Rd. Ew.

Cheers.

the capacity of a Cloverleaf is less that that of a SPUI. You will be lucky to see another cloverleaf constructed anywhere in the world. The cloverleaf pictured with Collector-Distributor lanes is going to be significantly more expensive too. The space taken by cloverleaves destroys what remains of suburbs divided by freeways in the first place.


As for 401, well it's the major US-Canada freight route, you can see why its four carriageways wide. As for Toronto, there's a fair few threads here about Toronto public transport...

Absolutely spectacular website.
Although we can certainly ignore their frustrating 50kmh on arterial roads.. 60kph is an absolute rarity and luxury on non-freeway Toronto roads. Don't even think about 80kph roads ie Springvale and Burwood Hwy, they don't exist.. at least I haven't seen them. Imagine 50kph on a road like Punt or Wantirna Rd. Ew.

Sounds like a good idea. Would make the roads much safer and easier for public transport to be made competitive (whenever they get off their arses and actually do something about public transport).

the capacity of a Cloverleaf is less that that of a SPUI. You will be lucky to see another cloverleaf constructed anywhere in the world.

I don't know about that, I've never seen a SPUI in action.. aren't they newish? Is there one in Melbourne that maybe I've been over but didn't know it? Does it work without stop lights? It can't imagine so, so vehicles still have to stop. Apparently they 'allow for concurrent left turns' (or right depending on what side you're driving on).. but someone still has to stop and wait somewhere right?

The cloverleaf pictured with Collector-Distributor lanes is going to be significantly more expensive too.

The one pictured is a small service road, but I guess it's acting as a collector. These cloverleafs are everywhere in the U.S. and Canada. They are at every intersection on every freeway.. you just do not see lights for left turns, period. Even that new 407 tollway in Toronto has them (10 years old now granted).

Here's a better picture of previously posted road..

http://www.moviemarshal.com/pics/interchange-toro2.jpg

As for them not being constructed anywhere else again.. that's just nonsense. These clover leafs I'm sure are pretty large at freeway grade interchanges and maybe they won't be seen there again, but the guy I have pictured above ain't all that large IMHO, people have to slow down to 40kph to take them safely. But they're the way freeways work in North America.. and they work very well despite the presumption against them, they've a bad rap due mainly to pictures only taken at peak when they're gridlocked, I haven't been stopped on any freeway, on or off them, in Toronto bar the 401.

I can't imagine why it'd be _that_ much more expensive either. It's all on the one level, like I said before, only the one road/freeway overpass. If they're 'significantly' more expensive, why are they so common here in place of lights? Let us know the differnce is costings to explain your theories.

The space taken by cloverleaves destroys what remains of suburbs divided by freeways in the first place.

Come and live in Mississauga and then tell me that this place has been 'desroyed' by the freeways and their interchanges that are around here. That's just ill-informed tripe. A suburb is a reflection of the people that live there, not the freeway that services it.

As for 401, well it's the major US-Canada freight route, you can see why its four carriageways wide.

That, and people just like to drive on it for some reason. The roadworks ATM before the 427 are a hassle.

As for Toronto, there's a fair few threads here about Toronto public transport...

Toronto has public transport? j/k

What I'm saying is that we are doing construction of this freeway sub-standard. The Burwood Highway, as one example, shouldn't have to stop at all when going over the freeway. Through its current design, the highway will just have another set of added stop lights for turns that could easily be solved by other methods.

Oh yeah. As for them not being built anymore. I lived in Vancouver for six months, and on my many trips for work to Chilliwack along the Trans-Canada, they didn't seen to think much of your theory as they were introducing new clover intersections in Langley and Chilli as well. :S

Paul.

I don't know about that, I've never seen a SPUI in action.. aren't they newish?

yes


Is there one in Melbourne that maybe I've been over but didn't know it?

I don't know every Melbourne interchange...

Does it work without stop lights? It can't imagine so, so vehicles still have to stop. Apparently they 'allow for concurrent left turns' (or right depending on what side you're driving on).. but someone still has to stop and wait somewhere right?

Single three phase light.

The one pictured is a small service road, but I guess it's acting as a collector. These cloverleafs are everywhere in the U.S. and Canada.

And Canada has a grand total of three[?] stack interchanges...
Service roads? euh, if the freeway isn't a blight on the landscape, let's double its width with service roads!

They are at every intersection on every freeway.. [snip] As for them not being constructed anywhere else again.. that's just nonsense. These clover leafs I'm sure are pretty large at freeway grade interchanges and maybe they won't be seen there again, but the guy I have pictured above ain't all that large IMHO, people have to slow down to 40kph to take them safely.

And that coupled with the weaving motions makes them unsafe and gives them a low capacity. The one six-ramp cloverleaf in NSW is the MR5-MR9 interchange, you come around the 55km/h ramp (large radius for a cloverleaf) having just had to slow down from 110km/h, you then have to accelerate to 70km/h and merge out of the left lane (while traffic is trying to merge into it) to avoid entering the other loop ramp, in 200m. Picture that on two freeways travelling at 110km/h, and it makes for a pretty large traffic jam quickly.


But they're the way freeways work in North America.

For those interchanges that aren't diamonds, SPUIs, partial clovers or some type of stack or feeder.

and they work very well despite the presumption against them, they've a bad rap due mainly to pictures only taken at peak when they're gridlocked, I haven't been stopped on any freeway, on or off them, in Toronto bar the 401.

You won't be off peak, unless you have an accident.

I can't imagine why it'd be _that_ much more expensive either. It's all on the one level, like I said before, only the one road/freeway overpass.

The most significant expense is land. The area they take is huge for a 60km/h loop ramp.

If they're 'significantly' more expensive, why are they so common here in place of lights? Let us know the differnce is costings to explain your theories.

Reclaimed land? long outstanding 100m wide reservation? no constitutional guarantee of market value in resumptions? tricky behaviour with easements? Government with too much money to spend? but seriously look beyond 401, in fact, look beyond Toronto, in the same way look beyond I10/LA for what generally happens on freeways...


Come and live in Mississauga and then tell me that this place has been 'desroyed' by the freeways and their interchanges that are around here. That's just ill-informed tripe. A suburb is a reflection of the people that live there, not the freeway that services it.

Which came first, the road or the houses?


Toronto has public transport? j/k

no comment.

What I'm saying is that we are doing construction of this freeway sub-standard. The Burwood Highway, as one example, shouldn't have to stop at all when going over the freeway. Through its current design, the highway will just have another set of added stop lights for turns that could easily be solved by other methods.

A non-controlled access highway, with frontage properties and innumerable sets of traffic lights? Maybe a volleyball if the congestion is really causing significant delays on the freeway.

Oh yeah. As for them not being built anymore. I lived in Vancouver for six months, and on my many trips for work to Chilliwack along the Trans-Canada, they didn't seen to think much of your theory as they were introducing new clover intersections in Langley and Chilli as well. :S

Paul.

I chastise their civil and traffic engineers for their stupidity and waste of public funds.

The website says that there will be options for heavy rail and light rail, I presume that means down the middle of the freeway which would be just plain stupid A railway down the middle of the freeway just wouldn't work as the stations could only be used for park and ride because you can't develop an activity centre around a station in the middle of a freeway or on the adjacent parklands.....and they would be better off narrowing the freeway and reducing it's impact.

I don't agree with this completely. If you look closely at the areas of land that are already developed a railway line that goes partially down the freeway would make sense (I'm referring mostly to Dandenong to Ringwood). I think the best route from Dandenong to Rowville would be north east along the existing corridor diverting onto the freeway north then diverting east again towards Stud Park across the D'nong valley creek/powerstation (south of Wellington Road) then up stud road to Stud Park. This way the first section of tunnel necessary would be a cut and cover between the Wellington/Stud roads intersection and Rowville station (Stud Park). Otherwise a more expensive tunnel would be required from Dandenong to go directly north. A realigned Yarraman Station (to near the Showgrounds) would extend the high density possibilities for Dandenong.

For most other sections though a rail alignment down the centre would be useless.

In general I don't know what my opinions are on this project. I think it is necessary in the long run, but it should be done at least in conjuntion with, if not after some serious PT upgrades. Unfortunately, the way it seems to be occurring will do nothing in the long run for traffic. After 10 or 15 years, intensive development in the main centres will negate the benefits of the freeway - in other words a trip between Ringwood and Dandenong which now takes around half an hour to 40 minutes will still take half an hour to 40 minutes because you will spend 10-15 minutes minimum at each end to exit, find a park and crawl through the traffic etc. etc. If you put in intensive PT in this corridor after 10 years they would definately compete timewise for centre to centre trips.

On the other hand there is already too much traffic (particularly heavy vehicles) on the north south roads, and it would be good if their speed limits were reduced, bus lanes or trams were put in, cycle lanes etc. and that's something that could be done immediately after the freeway opens. In other words force people onto it - which hopefully would then force more onto PT due to the tolls - which is what happened on the Dandenong corridor due to Citylink - patronage up 5% per year since the toll road opened.

I also agree with it being a toll road and in general think that all freeways should either be tolled or part of a two tiered registration system - ie cheaper rego if you don't use freeways, or day, or multi-day passes for infrequent uses of the whole freeway system (this is how it is in Austria, where I used to live. People tend to have one car per family registered for freeway use and the other just for short local trips. If you needed to use both cars you would pay for a pass for the second car. It really encourages PT use and is a direct incentive not to drive) On that point I also think that regos in general should be linked to the amount of Kilometres driven the previous year - ie. If you drive average you pay average, if you drive 10 percent less or more you pay 10 percent less or more, and so on.

Anyway that's enough for now.

I don't agree with this completely. If you look closely at the areas of land that are already developed a railway line that goes partially down the freeway would make sense (I'm referring mostly to Dandenong to Ringwood). I think the best route from Dandenong to Rowville would be north east along the existing corridor diverting onto the freeway north then diverting east again towards Stud Park across the D'nong valley creek/powerstation (south of Wellington Road) then up stud road to Stud Park. This way the first section of tunnel necessary would be a cut and cover between the Wellington/Stud roads intersection and Rowville station (Stud Park). Otherwise a more expensive tunnel would be required from Dandenong to go directly north. A realigned Yarraman Station (to near the Showgrounds) would extend the high density possibilities for Dandenong.


Hope you're not suggesting that instead of Rowville via Monash. Either way, you wouldn't justify building heavy rail between say Dandenong and Ringwood. There just aren't that many orbital trips (that includes road and public transport). But the freeway just wouldn't ever work because it's nowhere near any houses or anything.


In general I don't know what my opinions are on this project. I think it is necessary in the long run, but it should be done at least in conjuntion with, if not after some serious PT upgrades. Unfortunately, the way it seems to be occurring will do nothing in the long run for traffic. After 10 or 15 years, intensive development in the main centres will negate the benefits of the freeway - in other words a trip between Ringwood and Dandenong which now takes around half an hour to 40 minutes will still take half an hour to 40 minutes because you will spend 10-15 minutes minimum at each end to exit, find a park and crawl through the traffic etc. etc. If you put in intensive PT in this corridor after 10 years they would definately compete timewise for centre to centre trips.


If you want to turn Melbourne into a car choked city like Los Angeles, then yes the freeway is necessary. Though you do seem a little confused there, you recognise that the freeway would have no benefit but you still think it's necessary. I can only say that the freeway would be a bad thing. Ultimately it's going to increase the levels of traffic and it'll put pressure on the roads in the north-east leading to the 'missing link' in the ring road. Once we have our entire ring road then we'll get doughnut growth, which can't be served by public transport. Even before that, the freeway would (perhaps not to such a great extent with the tolls at least) undermine the public transport that you are keen about.

Single three phase light.


What is a single three phase light exactly? How does it work?

And that coupled with the weaving motions makes them unsafe and gives them a low capacity. The one six-ramp cloverleaf in NSW is the MR5-MR9 interchange, you come around the 55km/h ramp (large radius for a cloverleaf) having just had to slow down from 110km/h, you then have to accelerate to 70km/h and merge out of the left lane (while traffic is trying to merge into it) to avoid entering the other loop ramp, in 200m. Picture that on two freeways travelling at 110km/h, and it makes for a pretty large traffic jam quickly.

Cloverleaves for freeways are the less attractive interchanges, granted. The clover leaf I have been referring to is a 50kmh road into the freeway. A great change in speeds as you mentioned above, is not required.

The most significant expense is land. The area they take is huge for a 60km/h loop ramp.

Maybe, but the area required for a 40kmh loop isn't. I should take some location photos of this interchange for you. It's quite small and effective.

Reclaimed land? long outstanding 100m wide reservation? no constitutional guarantee of market value in resumptions? tricky behaviour with easements? Government with too much money to spend? but seriously look beyond 401, in fact, look beyond Toronto, in the same way look beyond I10/LA for what generally happens on freeways...

These are list of maybees that could drive up cost.. exclude these maybees and what else is there? Land? As I said, it's not that big. There's plenty of land available at the Burwood Hwy interchange for a higher speed interchange anyway. I was thinking clover as a small option, but if you're concerned about space, then why not just treat that part of the Burwood Highway as a freeway, and build a full-on stack. We'll all be happy :banana:

If you were to see this interchange's effectiveness in real life..

What is a single three phase light exactly? How does it work?

OK, a two phase light is a standard set of lights - one direction gets green, then the other direction gets green. Once intersections get busy, they either get "No Right Turn" signs or four phase lights. A four phase light either gives one phase to each of the four entrances to the intersection or you provision right-turn slip lanes and the straight directions make up two phases and the right-turn directions make up the other two (with cars turning in front of each other).

In a SPUI, there are only three phases - the arterial road travelling straight; turning right from the arterial to the freeway ramp and turning from the freeway ramp right onto the arterial.


Cloverleaves for freeways are the less attractive interchanges, granted. The clover leaf I have been referring to is a 50kmh road into the freeway. A great change in speeds as you mentioned above, is not required.

Major arterials, the only situation where you would possibly even being to consider perhaps using a cloverleaf would typically have a speed limit, here, of 70km/h, a clover loop ramp is at best 60km/h, more like 40km/h as you list.

Irrespective of the acceleration required you still have to move out of the left lane within 200m and traffic wishing to turn right onto the freeway have to enter the same lane to access the loop ramp.


Maybe, but the area required for a 40kmh loop isn't. I should take some location photos of this interchange for you. It's quite small and effective.

These are list of maybees that could drive up cost.. exclude these maybees and what else is there? Land? As I said, it's not that big. There's plenty of land available at the Burwood Hwy interchange for a higher speed interchange anyway. I was thinking clover as a small option, but if you're concerned about space, then why not just treat that part of the Burwood Highway as a freeway, and build a full-on stack. We'll all be happy :banana:

If you're putting your freeway in the middle of nowhere then the land cost will be less. On the other hand, when suburbia arrives, your interchange will clog up and need replacing with, well, some C/D Cloverleaf at a minimum.

The "Princes Highway" interchange on the project is a volleyball. Much more useful. Bring it to a single point intersection and you put a single two phase light on it. Tada, that beats most all interchanges...

If you were to see this interchange's effectiveness in real life..

But I have used a cloverleaf, well half of one, but the way it's set up means that travelling in one direction it has all the poblems of one, and all I can say is I'm very glad they're not in large-scale use.

These are list of maybees that could drive up cost.. exclude these maybees and what else is there? Land? As I said, it's not that big. There's plenty of land available at the Burwood Hwy interchange for a higher speed interchange anyway. I was thinking clover as a small option, but if you're concerned about space, then why not just treat that part of the Burwood Highway as a freeway, and build a full-on stack. We'll all be happy :banana:


It's not a freeway though. SPUI or cloverleaf, they're all crap. They both create a hell of a hostile environment for pedestrians and cyclists. Though not to mention that it doesn't matter what kind of interchange you use, freeways destroy suburbs and screw things up for pedestrians and cyclists (just try crossing the Eastern Freeway at Chandler Hwy on a bike). This whole Scoresby Freeway is stupid and shouldn't be built.

Hope you're not suggesting that instead of Rowville via Monash. Either way, you wouldn't justify building heavy rail between say Dandenong and Ringwood. There just aren't that many orbital trips (that includes road and public transport)...
No definately not. My ideal solution would be to keep the freeway alignment as is, but not develop it for at least 10 years, put in a Huntingdale to Rowville and a Glen Waverley to Knox heavy rail extension. I would then put in a light rail between Dandenong and Ringwood using parts of the two extended lines. This would make duel heavy/light rail stations at South of Wellington Road, Stud Park, south of Knox and at Knox city itself. The way it would be created using park and creek alignments where possible and street grade light rail, which when eventually upgraded to heavy rail would be put underground or partially sunken. If you know the area and look at the maps at least half the Dandenong corridor could be built at grade, and much of the areas that would need to go UG would be along Stud road, which has enough room for an extra two lanes of rail. In Paris some of the RER heavy rail goes down the middle of wide residential roads at grade, just with a decent sound barrier, tunnelling of course under intersections. Don't forget that once the major centres are more developed you'll have a corridor with two or three major urban centres so while it might not be necessary now, it has definate potential in the future. Don't dismiss the fact that the reason so many road upgrades are being made possible now is because they were planned and partially implemented BEFORE the need was there. Rail should be treated the same, rather than saying its not justified now so it never will be.

But the freeway just wouldn't ever work because it's nowhere near any houses or anything..
I assume your referring to my comments about rail going down the centre of the freeway. Look at the map and where I was referring to and you'll see that it's a logical path between existing residential areas. Of course down the centre of the whole freeway would be illogical.

If you want to turn Melbourne into a car choked city like Los Angeles, then yes the freeway is necessary. Though you do seem a little confused there, you recognise that the freeway would have no benefit but you still think it's necessary.
Yeah I am confused. On the one hand I would rather the money first be spent on PT but like it or loath it Melbourne IS already a sprawling city like LA, although of course with a much more established PT culture. I live in London, which has pretty damn good PT coverage, but people still drive for whatever reasons. The thing is when cross town trips are necessary you have no other choice here but to go very slowly through a whole lot of residential areas that AREN'T your destination. The streets are clogged with traffic and it's not a very nice environment. The thought of every truck car, and so on having no alternative but to go up stud or springvale road, with half a million more people in that corridor (in 20 years or so) is not that attractive. And yes I grew up in that corridor and I know plenty of people who do make large orbital trips. With 2030, this will definately grow.
So I agree the freeway will be needed, but I think that as I said before, freeways should ALL be treated as a separate transport option the rest of the road system, and therefore ALL be tolled. AND, any road upgrade that eases car travel should at the very least be matched by equivalant PT upgrades and be tolled so as to avoid it becoming redundant before its even paid off. (unfortunately in the current culture in Oz I think I am dreaming on that one)

In general, I think that keeping bad roads to improve the attraction of PT is not the answer. There are plenty of places in Europe that have a fantastic road AND pt system. The way to discourage road use is to stop subsidising it and generally make it much more expensive, which is how it works over here. Rego, insurance, tolls, fuel and even getting a licence are so much more expensive in Europe that everyone uses PT to much higher extent. But when you do have to drive, you are also using the best road systems in the world.

That's how it should be IMHO.

Enough for now though...

Glen Waverley line extension

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7905/GlenWaverley.jpg

Rowville line

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8691/Rowville.jpghttp://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3517/RowvilleEast.jpg

Roweville railway line wouldn't be underground for most of the way, rather it'd be in a cutting (at least at intersections, otherwise at grade where permitted). Though it would go underground for the remaining 500m to Stud Park shopping centre. Also TTM (http://www.ptua.org.au/publications/) proposes a railway station 'Tirhatuan', somewhere around halfway between Dandenong Creek and Stud Rd.

The Rowville Line should be a cut & cover job, otherwsie it would be far too noisy for the residents and they might complain and stall the project even further then they would if it was at grade (or there abouts).

There shouldn't be too much noise if it's in a cutting. Many people live happily along side railway lines. I don't think that railway noise is as bad as the continuous noise you get from road traffic. That's not to say that some people won't complain, some probably will. Though I doubt it'll be enough to knock the project out of the water if it gets up, as opposed to the prohibitive cost of building it underground. Besides if they didn't want to live near a railway line, they shouldn't have built their houses next to a reservation.

I agree. North and Wellington roads are already extremely noisy and the route between huntingdale and rowville is actually mostly industrial - huntingdale to dandenong roads is residential for about 2 thirds the length, dandenong to blackburn road has Monash Uni on one side and residential on the other, blackburn to Springvale is almost completely industrial and from Springvale to stud road is a mix of residential, industrial and open space in about equal amounts. In any case with the current traffic noise and with a decent sound barriers, i don't think it would be too bad. Also, there is still a much greater distance to any residents than any other existing suburban rail line.

Looking in the Melways I bought the other day there's a shitload of propsed freeways in Melbourne - more than anywhere else in this country, yet I still think this bizarro freeway from nowhere to elsewhere is a better idea than another rail line. Why because every other morning connex apologises for some train being cancelled, usually due to a shortage of qualified running staff - when you consider that they take at least a year to train a train driver (for what I don't know!) you're looking at a nasty problem with no short term solution except for freeways.

As for what interchange is best - if you can't do an SPUI for whatever reason then why not have the onramps controlled by traffic lights and the offramps freeflowing thereby regulating the flow of traffic onto a freeway and allowing it to get off really quickly - as for jams caused on surface streets, u have to look at it case by case.

Looking in the Melways I bought the other day there's a shitload of propsed freeways in Melbourne - more than anywhere else in this country, yet I still think this bizarro freeway from nowhere to elsewhere is a better idea than another rail line. Why because every other morning connex apologises for some train being cancelled, usually due to a shortage of qualified running staff - when you consider that they take at least a year to train a train driver (for what I don't know!) you're looking at a nasty problem with no short term solution except for freeways.

Err, government incompetency is no reason to build freeways instead of railway lines. Either way, the freeway will take at least four years to complete, so even if it took a year to train drivers, you'd have them well before the freeway is built. I'm sure if the government got off their arses and started building the Rowville railway line tomorrow, it too would be finished before the freeway, with plenty of drivers. So that road from nowhere to nowhere should stay the road of nowhere and stay off the map.

yet I still think this bizarro freeway from nowhere to elsewhere is a better idea than another rail line. Why because every other morning connex apologises for some train being cancelled, usually due to a shortage of qualified running staff - when you consider that they take at least a year to train a train driver (for what I don't know!) you're looking at a nasty problem with no short term solution except for freeways.

Care to retract that, before you swallow your entire leg?

Just how long does it take to build a freeway, from the politician showing interest in a road lobbyist's wet dream to the opening day? As Tux pointed out, it takes far longer than the year and a quarter it takes to properly qualify a train driver.

If you go and build a new rail line, order the refurbishment of some trains otherwise slated for withdrawal, and hire an intake of drivers, a rail project could be completed and fully ready to go in about a year and a half. If there are enough drivers, or enough trains, maybe a bit less than that.

Oh, and for your info, while a car driver can be qualified to operate a vehicle in a few hours, there are hundreds of crashes a day on the roads. This level of carnage would not be accepted on the rail network, particularly when several lines (Dandenong, Frankston and all the North Melbourne lines) mix with freights and loco hauled passenger trains, not to mention the occasional ballast train (which run on all lines).

They take safety very seriously, and ensure that the driver knows everything he needs to know before he's let loose alone on the network hauling hundreds of tonnes worth of steel and plastic, and up to 1200 people.

For example, to drive a car, you just need to know what the various signs and signals mean. To drive a train, you need to know that plus the location and type of every single signal, as well as the gradients and curves of each line, as these all affect how far it takes for a train to actually stop when the signals say to, how long the driver can put off taking action, and hence stay a bit closer to the timetable without endangering lives. Anyway, learning the road alone would take a month or two, and that's just one tiny part of the program.

We've got two almmost completel cloverleafs in South East Queensland. One is at the intersection of Beudesert Road and the Logan Motorway. The other is on the Sunshine Motorway at Mooloolaba. I recon cloverleafs are over-rated. They are slow and mindless confuse drivers. My opinion is either stick to diamond intersections with traffic lights or upgrade to stacked intersections.

and in reality, they're in the middle of nowhere (well outskirts, comparable to the six ramp par-clo I mentioned before) where the land was dirt cheap and the traffic negligable but the intersecting road considered "important"

Freeway cost blowout (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,10175506%255E2862,00.html)
Herald Sun (www.heraldsun.com.au)
John Masanauskas
19 July 2004

TOLL prices for cars on the Mitcham-Frankston freeway will be kept down despite the project's cost ballooning to more than $2.3 billion.

Big trucks will pay higher relative tolls than on CityLink to ensure ordinary motorists are not charged excessively, sources said yesterday.
And off-peak tolls will be introduced to lure more vehicles from competing routes such as Springvale and Stud roads.

With the State Government expected to announce the winning bidder by October, it is believed the cost of the 40km tollway has risen from the original $1.8 billion to at least $2.3 billion.

One reason is that bidders have included in their plans a southern Dandenong bypass costing about $100 million.

The 4.5km road, expected to be built between Perry Rd in Keysborough and the South Gippsland Highway in Dandenong South, will feed traffic to the freeway.

The City of Greater Dandenong had lobbied strongly for the link to ease future congestion on local roads.

Costs have also risen because of Government demands for improved urban design features involving noise walls, landscaping, tunnels and pedestrian bridges.

Another factor is the role played by builder Leighton Holdings, which has a stake in both consortiums bidding for the project.

Leighton chief executive Wal King criticised the Bracks Government last week over problems with the Spencer St station redevelopment.

An industry source said Leighton was worried about doing business in Victoria and had become more wary on the Mitcham-Frankston project.

"He (Wal King) has sort of got the Government over a barrel," the source said.

"He can take a bigger profit margin and a bigger margin for risk."

The Transurban-led Mitcham-Frankston Motorway consortium has Leighton Contractors and Abigroup as builders.

Builders in the rival ConnectEast bid are Leighton subsidiaries Thiess and John Holland.

A spokesman for the Government's Southern and Eastern Integrated Transport Authority, Brian Wilson, said Leighton Holdings had no scope to recover losses on the Spencer St station project from its involvement in the freeway bids.

"Leighton just don't have the propensity to influence the actions of both consortia," he said.

Mr Wilson denied the project cost had blown out and said SEITA was "very confident about a good toll outcome".

He said off-peak prices would be part of a diverse range of toll products.

It is believed car tolls will be cheaper than CityLink per kilometre and that big commercial vehicles will pay higher relative charges.

Opposition major projects spokesman Phil Honeywood said the Government would struggle to complete the freeway as promised during 2008.

"Much of the cost blowout can be put down to Government construction delays, design changes and poor negotiation skills," he said.

Spokesmen for both freeway bidders declined to comment.

I wrote this on this forum in July 2002:

It's bloody vicroads fault that the Eastern Freeway tunnels haven't started yet. They always underquote to the government the actual cost of freeways so that they can get them built. Then wehn the government has commited to the project it's like oops it will actually cost half as much again!

The Scoresby freeway was supposed to cost $800 million, it's already up to $1 billion and I guarantee it willl rise to at least $1.5 billion once they put it out to tender.

Vicroads does the most shoddy studies with outlandish claims about the benefits projects will bring to the economy and the actual costs of freeways.

Guess I was wrong, the project is out to tender and it will now cost $1.95 billion (excluding the $350 million eastern freeway extension :-)!!!

The 1997 Scorseby Freeway Enivronmental effects statement found that the freeway would have a cost benefit ratio of 2.0. That was based on the freeway costing $950 million (in 2004 dollars).

Since the freeway will now cost $1.95 billion the ratio is now only 0.975 This means that the cost of construction will be more than the potential economic benefits of the project!!! Compare this to the estimated cost benefit ratio of 1.4 that would result from $300 million worth of improvements to the existing road network without building a freeway!

This is a clear example of Vicroads underquoting freeway projects at the EES stage and overquoting the cost of rail alternatives so that the government always chooses to road option. The government falls for it every time.

It's time to strip Vicroads of all of it's major road planning functions and have projects assesed by an independent transport authority which will take a more balanced approach. They should as a minimum have an independent consultant review all Vicroads costings before making any decisions.

For thoses people who think the government should build the Scorseby without tolls $2.3 billion dollars would build 7 major hospitals the size of Royal Melbourne Hospital!

Grollo - you the man!

I heard somewhere that their planning to have two sets of tolls, one for peak periods and a lower set for off-peak times! - Whoops, somebody already posted that! Well this is what happens when you have a job!

PS. Work is about to (or has already) started on widening the Burwood Highway for the new Vermont Tram extension. Notices to that effect were in The Age over the weekend.

We've got two almmost completel cloverleafs in South East Queensland. One is at the intersection of Beudesert Road and the Logan Motorway. The other is on the Sunshine Motorway at Mooloolaba. I recon cloverleafs are over-rated. They are slow and mindless confuse drivers. My opinion is either stick to diamond intersections with traffic lights or upgrade to stacked intersections.

True, however the M4 Logan clover traffic feeds onto a seperated roadway before joining the Motorway. The stupid thing about this is that you have traffic off the clover and the M4 having to merge etc in only 800m before the Motorway divides in 2, the M4 Gateway and the M6 Logan.

As for the Clover on the Sunshine coast, its days are numbered. This interchange will be scrapped according to the report commisioned on the future needs of the Sunshine Coast. SM2032 - is available on the QLD Mainroads website.

Read the article: That's why I don't trust Brack government in money management or Transport Minister Peter Batchelor leadership (he doesn't do his homework, which is costing us tax payers money). Even ALP's Mr Ferguson is questioning the Bracks decisions and I guess disappointed. Its so sad that Brack broke his promises. However he has the time to revert it. We can not blame, governments from the past (what's done is done), but blame the government who has the power now.


Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,10189448%255E2862,00.html)

Freeway bidding blast
John Masanauskas
20jul04

A SENIOR federal Labor frontbencher yesterday attacked the Bracks Government's handling of the Mitcham-Frankston freeway bidding process, describing it as a dog's breakfast.

Opposition transport spokesman Martin Ferguson also conceded Premier Steve Bracks' toll backflip would hurt the ALP in the federal election.

Mr Ferguson's comments are certain to renew tensions between federal and Victorian Labor over the controversial tollway.

Mr Ferguson, who holds the safe inner Melbourne seat of Batman, upset his state colleagues in February when he criticised the Bracks Government for breaking its election promise not to place a toll on the freeway.

"I will not mislead people and play politics on infrastructure decisions -- I am not going to be party to the type of decisions that occurred on Scoresby by the Victorian Government," he said then.

But Mr Ferguson's comments, made after reports the freeway's cost has risen to at least $2.3 billion, go much further.

"It seems that the whole process is a dog's breakfast," he told the Herald Sun yesterday.

"We have gone from $1.8 billion to $2.3 billion."

Asked how the freeway issue would affect the federal ALP's electoral chances in the Scoresby corridor, Mr Ferguson said: "Federal Labor is hardly assisted by the Scoresby debacle.

"And it's unfair for voters to take it out on federal Labor."

Mr Ferguson has promised a Latham government would fully fund the $294 million Deer Park bypass and contribute funds to projects such as the Geelong and Pakenham bypasses.

But he said there was no secret deal with Victoria to contribute any federal money to the Mitcham-Frankston freeway.

Victoria wants the Federal Government to contribute some of the funds it promised under the original deal to build the Scoresby freeway without tolls.

Mr Ferguson said he would be surprised if the tender process was finalised by the Government's deadline of late September.

Industry sources said if the process faced more delays it would be difficult to complete the project during 2008 as the Government has promised.

They said that the contract would need to be signed by October to allow enough time for construction to start before Christmas.

If the deadline was missed, work couldn't start until after the summer holidays, making a 2008 completion highly unlikely.

A spokeswoman for Transport Minister Peter Batchelor said the Government expected construction to begin this year.

"Mr Ferguson's understanding of the project is wrong and the minister will be seeking to brief him so he fully appreciates the benefits that the freeway will provide to Victoria," she said.

Liberal MP for Aston, Chris Pearce, said cost blowouts on the project would lead to higher tolls.

So now the first shreds of doubt are shed over the completion date of 2008. Why am I not surprised? Bracks and co. couldnt keep to a schedule for a PPP if their lives depended on it, but that might well be true for most governments. I won't blame his government for that but i do hold him to account for his blatant and pre-meditated deception over tolls.

Blue

Get a load of this.. :-)

tenders.vic.gov.au/verylonglinksnipped (http://www.tenders.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/eTenders/etdrPublishing.nsf/ContractsByAgency/3C12DFC8C2C66AF8CA256EC2000AD7E7?OpenDocument)

eh hold on, what's Paul Mees done?

So now the first shreds of doubt are shed over the completion date of 2008. Why am I not surprised? Bracks and co. couldnt keep to a schedule for a PPP if their lives depended on it, but that might well be true for most governments. I won't blame his government for that but i do hold him to account for his blatant and pre-meditated deception over tolls.

Blue

Who really cares about this stupid project apart from a few Liberals grasping at straws in the Eastern suburbs ( where they hold most of the seats anyway) and the selfish few locals that might use the road.
Well I dont want my tax dollars spent on this usless piece if infrastructure.
In fact I dont care if it ever gets finished and hope the investors go broke.

In the period specified, the SEITA spent (at least) that rather large sum of taxpayers money countering Paul Mees' attempts to stop the freeway on environmental grounds.

And it's still going on. You'd think that if the freeway was legal, it would have been quashed already.

Anyway, considering that Paul Mees is representing himself, and considering that the freeway should theoretically be legal (you'd hope), is there really justification for THAT kind of expenditure on legal services?

Who really cares about this stupid project apart from a few Liberals grasping at straws in the Eastern suburbs ( where they hold most of the seats anyway) and the selfish few locals that might use the road.
Well I dont want my tax dollars spent on this usless piece if infrastructure.
In fact I dont care if it ever gets finished and hope the investors go broke.

I woulden't exactly call it useless.

When you think about how needed the Metropolitan Ring freeway running all the way from Laverton North to Greensborough, and that the Eastern suburbs (home to some 2.5 million people), doesnt have the same sort of route, there is going to be a demand.

Sure we need more public transport connections, but I do think the Mitcham-Frankston link is called for. Whether it be finished by 2008 or 2010, something needs to be done.

I travel from Berwick to Greensborough quite frequently, and it would HALF my travelling time.
I basically have to go
Princes Highway (Berwick) > Hallam Bypass > Monash Freeway > Springvale Road, all the way up to Donvale > Reynolds Road > Fitzsimons Lane > Eltham.

The entire trip, has, taken me over two hours sometimes.

The Monash Freeway interchange isn't quite fully fledged because you won't be able turn south onto the tollway when travelling west on the Monash and you won't be able to turn east onto the Monash when travelling north on the tollway.


Argghhh !!!!!!

I cannot believe yet again we are building a major freeway yet cannot provide for each combination of entry points... I'm WTF ????

Look at the f******n Tulla Fwy how cars bank up now at the Michelham Rd now because there is no West turn onto the Ring Rd from the Tulla near Airport West (they assume you will have continued on the Calder way back before the merge ...

Fair dinkum... other than that I'm imrpessed with the website - though personally I'm still betting $100,000 that the project wont begin while Bracks is in power.

Good to see this going ahead with "Private money" let the whingwers in the eastern suburbs pay for it not the rest of us that wont use it that much. Stupid Doyle is saying he will buy back the contract - has the guy go no brains at all? A buy back would cost many more Billions of dollars at the expence of other vital services in the state just so the Libs might win some seats back.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/13/1097607297339.html

Mitcham-Frankston tolls to cost $4.43
By Darren Gray
State Editor
October 14, 2004 - 10:50AM


Victorian Premier Steve Bracks today said the ConnectEast Consortium was the successful bidder for the state's $2.5 billion Mitcham-Frankston freeway project.

A key feature of the project is a toll cap of $4.43 for a one way weekday journey for the full length of the road, the government said.

It said Victoria's first discount toll would enable users to pay 20 per cent less on weekends and public holidays and for neighbourhood users.

The ConnectEast consortium comprises Macquarie Bank Ltd, Thiess, John Holland, Alstom Australia and Hyder Consulting.

The bid beat that of rivals Mitcham-Frankston Motorway Pty Ltd, which comprised Melbourne's CityLink operator Transurban, Leighton Contractors, Abi Group and the Deutsche Bank.

"This is Australia's largest urban road project and offers the people of Melbourne's eastern and south-eastern regions a fully integrated transport solution," Mr Bracks said.

The project includes a $200 million public transport package including four railway station upgrades and an $85 million Dandenong Southern Bypass to boost economic development in the region.

The project includes a $200 million public transport package including four railway station upgrades and an $85 million Dandenong Southern Bypass to boost economic development in the region.
I'm interested in this - what is included in this public transport package?

Disgraceful.... there SHOULD not be tolls on the Eastern Ring Road.... why dont they put tolls on Western Ring Road? Mayeb because people in the Western Suburbs couldnt afford it?

I'm just disappointed with Brack's broken promises.

Disgraceful.... there SHOULD not be tolls on the Eastern Ring Road.... why dont they put tolls on Western Ring Road? Mayeb because people in the Western Suburbs couldnt afford it?

Lets say you live in Dandy and use the road everyday to get to work and back. so u pay to use it.

why should should some shmuck in who lives in melton or sunbury etc. who may never use the road in his life pay for it too.

User pays is best. this way the public gets world class infrustructure and doesnt have to pay to maintain it for 30 years.

all the dollars saved can go to employment/education/hospitals/commerce/tourism etc.

Cheers

Dean - Melbourne

I can see your point Dean.... but this road, like the Western Ring Road should have been built toll free.

Dude's , the user's already paying thru petrol exise, hence tollways are government crap. Sure, remove the excise, toll the freeways = fair enuff.

At the moment the user pays to give free drugs to lesbian IVF mothers...ends rant

Sorry Dean, but I disagree on your point:

Every tax payer has had to pay for every other bloody freeway and road in Melbourne that has been built in the past, regardless of whether they lived near the road or not. (other than citylink ) For example , i never use the western ring road, but i contributed to the funding for it out of my tax !

There has been plans to build that Scoresby Freeeway since 1955. It should have been built years ago ! The people of the eastern suburbs are entitled to the same quality roads and freeways that western suburbs have, but it seems that the west has better roads and access to and around the city. Funny thing is , 2/3 of melbourne people live in the east , and 1/3 in the west. We should have better roads just on that population distribution alone !

Its just bullshit ! And Bracks is a liar big time and i hope he gets kicked out next election for his lies !

cheers

Lozza :bowtie:

I have to pay a toll everytime I go to uni-using citylink and I live in the northern suburbs, which are just as bad as the western-why the hell should the people in the east get it scott free- sure the SE arterial is tolled, but you can easily exit at Toorak Road and head into town-if i want a toll free method to the CBD I must exit I have to get off at

a.Mt Alexander Rd-major traffic problems-all those roundabouts in Essendon North Moonee Ponds is another disaster.

b.Bell Street-and struggle through the Springvale road of the North

So you want to drive around the east-you should pay for it-as I do.

(From theage)

Victorian Premier Steve Bracks today said the ConnectEast Consortium was the successful bidder for the state's $2.5 billion Mitcham-Frankston freeway project.

A key feature of the project is a toll cap of $4.43 for a one way weekday journey for the full length of the road, the government said.

It said Victoria's first discount toll would enable users to pay 20 per cent less on weekends and public holidays and for neighbourhood users.

The ConnectEast consortium comprises Macquarie Bank Ltd, Thiess, John Holland, Alstom Australia and Hyder Consulting.

The bid beat that of rivals Mitcham-Frankston Motorway Pty Ltd, which comprised Melbourne's CityLink operator Transurban, Leighton Contractors, Abi Group and the Deutsche Bank.

"This is Australia's largest urban road project and offers the people of Melbourne's eastern and south-eastern regions a fully integrated transport solution," Mr Bracks said.

The project includes a $200 million public transport package including four railway station upgrades and an $85 million Dandenong Southern Bypass to boost economic development in the region.

Advertisement
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The announcement comes after the government refused calls to reconsider its decision to impose tolls on the Mitcham-Frankston freeway, despite yesterday reporting a budget surplus of close to $1 billion for the past financial year.

The final operating surplus of $990 million was almost twice as large as estimates given by the Victorian Treasury just five months ago.

Fuelled by surging property tax collections and a booming sharemarket, the bumper surplus provoked renewed calls from the State Opposition, federal Treasurer Peter Costello and the RACV for the Government to dump tolls.

Shadow Treasurer Robert Clark said the figures showed the Government had "no excuses" for continuing with the controversial plan to make the 40-kilometre road a tollway. "Together with the Commonwealth's promised $560 million of funding, which is still on the table, Victoria could afford to have the entire Scoresby freeway built debt-free and toll-free with just two years' worth of budget surpluses," he said.

But Premier Steve Bracks rejected the comments, saying the Opposition's policy of funding the road without tolls was financially irresponsible and would "double state debt".

The row came as the Government prepared to announce - possibly as early as today - which one of two groups vying for the project will build the road.

The Victorian Department of Treasury and Finance's 2003-04 Financial Report revealed Victorians paid an unprecedented $3.2 billion in property-related taxes, including stamp duty on property purchases ($2.45 billion), land tax ($748.5 million) and $294.2 million in "other property stamp duty", including stamp duty on mortgages in 2003-04.

The $990 million surplus is $754 million bigger than the 2002-03 result, and $432 million larger than estimates published just five months ago. It is four times bigger than estimated in May last year.

Treasury officials again underestimated the amount of tax revenue expected via stamp duty on property purchases. Figures published in May 2003 underestimated stamp duty receipts on property purchases for 2003-04 by $590.5 million.

The budget result was also helped by the rising sharemarket, as superannuation expenses dropped.

Gambling delivered $1.32 billion in taxes, virtually the same as the previous year. Gaming machine taxes generated $810 million, and taxes on private lotteries $305.2 million.

Victorian motorists paid $1.32 billion in vehicle taxes, including $576.2 million in registration fees and $544.1 million in stamp duty on vehicle purchases.

While overall tax revenue jumped by more than $800 million in 2003-04, revenue from speeding and other traffic fines and regulatory fees dropped by $63.2 million. The report said revenue from traffic infringements was $163 million lower than anticipated because of delays in the implementation of speed cameras, the temporary suspensions of fixed-speed camera fines and improvements in driver behaviour.

Treasurer John Brumby said the report showed "a strong budget, a strong economy and strong financial management".

He emphasised the smaller "cash surplus" of $219 million, rather than the larger $990 million operating surplus when quizzed about the booming finances. He said the cash surplus could "arguably" have been used for other projects.

But referring to Opposition Leader Robert Doyle's call for a rethink on tolls, Mr Brumby said: "This proposition... that you can suddenly find two or three billion dollars, whatever the numbers, to put towards a range of projects, which won't affect debt is really a highly irresponsible proposition... this is Doyle's double-decker debt dumpster"

Mr Doyle hit back after question time. "Today's figures showed clearly that Scoresby can be built without tolls. A responsible government would keep its promise," he said.

- with AAP

So how will they collect the tolls, via number plate or outsourcing it to rival Transurban to use its E-tags.???

The Scorseby is nowhere near as import for freight movement as Citylink and the Western Bypass were.

The Western bypass provided links between the Port of Melbourne, Melbourne Airport and the massive idustrial areas in the west and North. It also provided vital links of national importance between the Hume Highway, Calder Highway, The Western highway and the Princes Highway.

The major industrial area in the southeast is Dandenoing which is already linked to the Port of Melbourne, the airport and the industrial areas in the west and north by Citylink.

The Scorseby is a commuter freeway.

2.6 billion for a freeway and $200 million for improved public transport, so much for Melbourne 2030 and 20% of trips on public transport by 2020.

shame shame shame.

Having said that, lets see Doyle try to alter the contract if he won office.
Not a chance this side of the Second Coming.

Blue

mic - totally agree Mt Alexander is only worth going through 12am-6am, let those mugs pay for it if they want to use it.

barneybuck, doyle knows he can't negotiate a way out of the contract. its a self serving argument, he'd try to negotiate ONLY on the proviso that he wins the next election knowing full well now the contract wont be broken. he's not stupid, just trying to take the high moral ground for a supposed political gain. we'll find out if there's enough morons that fall for it at the next election in those seats he's trying to win

lozza sounds like you're having a bad day, tolls and no core rise at Eureka :fiddle:

Doyle is pretty dodgy as well, how about this scare campaign that was released just before the federal elecetion:

There will be unfair tolls on the Scoresby. The Bracks Government will make it a Tollway, whereas the Howard-Anderson Government has offered a total of $445 million to ensure it is a Freeway. This means tolls of up to $7 each way for motorists, or $70 a week for the average commuter.

The actuall toll will be 4.43 each way for motorists, or $44.30 a week for the average commuter. IF the tollway delivers the benefits it is supposed to then the time and petrol savings would easily make up for the cost of the toll. If the freeway doesn't result in big travel time savings then why are we building it in the first place?

mic,

Try and exit at Toorak Rd and see how long it takes you to get into the city. 2/3 of Melbourne's population lives in the Eastern and South Easter Suburbs yet we still subsidise the use of the Western Ring Road... why?

Same should go for the Eastern/Scoresby/Mitcham-Frankston Ring Road/Freeway/Tollway.

I must say I am usually the biggest advocate for a user pays system, but I don't think a suburban freeway should be tolled.
I will most likely never use this road in my life, yet I cannot justify it.
Melbourne needs a completed ring road similar to the one in London, free of tolls and used to reduce traffic from needing to travel through the suburban streets.

Citylink is a luxury, its used for inner-city travel. If you want to drive in the city, you can pay the extra. I do, often, and I don't understand all the fuss that it caused, it makes the drive so much easier.
Its a whole new story when you are 25-30km outside the city

Hopefully this will result in a change of government in 2006.

MG2

The point is , there should be no tolls on our roads ! Especially the Scoresby , which was on the plan to be built back in 1955 !

None of them !

cheers

lozza :bowtie:

The bottom line is all governments are dodgey, regardless of whether they are liberal or labor, cant trust them, and even if bracks is kicked out another dodgey leader will come into to continue the never ending circle. No one can honestly say that this decision comes as a suprise, i think it was pretty obvious it was going to be a tollway the whole time.

Of course there should be no tolls! Just another example of how the eastern residents get rooted by Labor governments. First we are lied to and then we are ignored. I find it damn unfair that we should have to pay for the western ringroad through taxes and then the eastern through tolls! Why not balance it up by introducing tolls on the western ring road as well to help pay for the eastern? All I can say is I bloody hope it's still an election issue come 2006. I can't see how it won't be.

MG2

I must say I am usually the biggest advocate for a user pays system, but I don't think a suburban freeway should be tolled.
I will most likely never use this road in my life, yet I cannot justify it.
Melbourne needs a completed ring road similar to the one in London, free of tolls and used to reduce traffic from needing to travel through the suburban streets.
Why does Melbourne NEED a ring road? Spend the money on PT! There's no need for this freeway, and if it has to be built, I'm all for tolling it. hey could charge $50 a pop for all I care. We have to get out of this anti-PT mentality...

They should do a better system of Tolls then that. In Brisbane, Tolls range between a $1 - 20c and there is only 4. If the Vic Government was to have it that high, then not many people would use it much. If the Government were to have it between 20c - 80c then people would kinda stop whinging and use the road more. Some people are too ignorant to actually think about it. These Tolls are placed to help Pay to Improve the roads and even other things in the Community. But people are so stupid nowadays.

lol whinge whinge, today is the day the Eastern Suburbs lost its virginity.

I cannot for the life of me envision a government made up by the party which puts self-interest first changing this contract - I'd be willing to put $10 on that.

The project includes a $200 million public transport package including four railway station upgrades and an $85 million Dandenong Southern Bypass to boost economic development in the region.

i wonder what the labour party donations/batering will be like in the next few years ;)

so what there building another road and calling it public transport???? :eek2:

and station upgrades 200 million....

more like apartments,convience stores, public land that they will get even more return on.....

how the hell do you spend 200 million upgrading 4 stations?????

AND WHO THE HELL WANTS A NEW ROAD IF U GOTTA PAY FOR IT....

leave the old one ill use that....

2.6 billion for a freeway and $200 million for improved public transport, so much for Melbourne 2030 and 20% of trips on public transport by 2020.

Actually I think you'll find its only $20 million.

I'm interested in this - what is included in this public transport package?

About $180 million less than that sentence suggests. The PT outlay is actually $20 million.

I'm just disappointed with Brack's broken promises.
Is that the same as Howard lying?

Ill repeat again the $520 "promised by Costello is OUR Victorian fuel taxes money and shouldnt be used for political gain then again all the dickheads who believed by voting Liberal in the election that the tolls would be removed if they got back-eat shit.

Another thing there are presently 9 yes NINE toll roads under constrution in NSW and it will be 11 by the end of the decade. So are Victorians the biggest whingers in Aussie?

9 toll roads under construction?! Let's see:

Existing Tollroads:
Sydney Harbour Bridge
Sydney Harbour Tunnel
Hills Mwy
South Western Mwy
Western Mwy
Eastern Distributor
Total: 6 (and even this total is a bit dodgy for the Har Bdg/Tnl and East Dist which only have a toll in one direction)

Under Construction:
Lane Cove Tunnel
Western Sydney Orbital
Cross City Tunnel
Total: 3

Proposed:
M4 East
F3-F2 Link

hello, pardon me for barging into the cat-fight but is this going ahead with:

1) No Commonwealth funding?
2) The Commonwealth funding announced in the May budget?
3) The Commonwealth funding announced by the Coalition in the election campaign?

^
1.!

That is the stupid thing about it! There is government funding but they arn't using it....it is just stupid in my opinion. Labor will have a swing against them in '06!

Freeways should be a privilege, not a right. Government freeways do not earn any direct revenue for the government. It has to be crossubsidised. Further more, your car rego, and fuel taxes are meant to cover arterial roads and streets. Nothing about freeways...

Call me crazy, but maybe car companies should be chipping in some road funding, since they're the main beneficiaries of govt road funding. The rest of us can technically live off buses on little suburban streets, bicycles and the train/tram network.

No what's stupid is that they're not going to do anything to tackle the problem in the Eastern Suburbs.

2002 Election results:

88 Seat Parliament

ALP: 62 seats.
LP: 17 seats.
NP: 7 seats.
IND: 2 seats.

ALP Primary: 47%
Coalition Primary: 33%
The Rest: 20%

Let's do some maths: 88 / 2 = 44 + 1 = 45 seats to form a government in Victoria, ALP has a majority of 18 seats, the Liberal party alone is swallowed in that majority. The LP and NP need to win 21 seats (if they retain the seats they have) to form a government.

http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/TheEBC/inner_districts.jpg

There's about 13 LA Districts along the corridor and I think 9 or 10 of them are held by the ALP.

As a worst case scenario, let's say they loose all the Scoresby corridor seats, they're still going to have a 4-5 seat majority - and how likely is that going to happen, just basing an electoral flop on a fucking road is well - hysterical to say the least.

^
1.!

That is the stupid thing about it! There is government funding but they arn't using it....it is just stupid in my opinion. Labor will have a swing against them in '06!
If they took the federal government funding, the State govt would still have to fork out many many dollars - fiscally irresponsible I reckon.

Of course it's fiscally irresponsible and the Liberal tards know it. As the big man has pointed out, it's just Doyley doing what any opposition leader would do - to raise his non-existent profile.

The thing to watch over the next two years: Wellington Road Rail corridor funding, the feasibility study is complete, and that is probably going to be the project that would soften any potential blow to the governments seat out here and dare I say it, they know it. $900million surplus announced, 1/3 of that would finance that project nicely.

Don't see why I should pay for a Scoresby Freeway. I'll never use it: nor will anyone I know.

Melbourne needs a completed ring road similar to the one in London, free of tolls and used to reduce traffic from needing to travel through the suburban streets.

The ring road around London did not solve it's traffic problems, it just crreated more traffic and even worse congestion.

As a worst case scenario, let's say they loose all the Scoresby corridor seats, they're still going to have a 4-5 seat majority - and how likely is that going to happen, just basing an electoral flop on a fucking road is well - hysterical to say the least.[/QUOTE]

Bracks was voted in after giving his word to the electorate that the Scoresby would not be tolled, if he was elected to govern, he not only did the biggest back flip on this promise but then also :weirdo: commited the people he lied to into paying tolls for the rest of their lives.... your spin (sorry quote) above would be more accurate if it referred to a "fucking lie" instead of a "fucking road".

Hopefully this will result in a change of government in 2006.

MG2

Couldn't agree more :cheers:

Another thing there are presently 9 yes NINE toll roads under constrution in NSW and it will be 11 by the end of the decade. So are Victorians the biggest whingers in Aussie?

But the state of Victoria doesn't have to be like NSW and have road toll everywhere. That's what makes Victoria different. Sydney is an expensive place to live.

However Brack's had many options given to him such federal funding, but choose not to. He has many oportunity to change, without excuses. I don't know, about his financial management ability. Its great that he's government made $900 million state in surpluses (which good for the state), surely he have enough of this surpluses budget to fund this project in stages, with the additional federal funding. Thus he in government for next year or so.

To back flip on major project of where the residents live (your own state), is not a good testimony for the Labour Party. When was opposition leader, he should not made such promises. Basically he mis-calculated how big this project was.

The money for that one freeway should be put into public transport, which would benefit the community as a whole far better: and no-one asks for a free train-trip.

The 14 billion the Federal Government just proffered could also have been used far more productively if hadn't just been promised to buy votes. I really feel sorry for the people who are going to inherit this country, including my own offspring, because it's infrastructure has been tragically neglected.

More to the point, why doesn't Doyle pledge to revoke the tolls on Citylink?

There is a whole stack of new stuff on the excellent Website:

http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/

This website rocks!

Check out the side by side interactive 2004 and 1969 Melways maps!

I think this is a great project and we need tools on some of our other freeways including the Western Ring Road, Eastern Freeway and the West Gate Bridge. If we had tolls ($3 one way), we could build all the other freeways and connect them up and at the same time improve our public transport system.

Great website Grollo. Just worked out that for me to travel via the Ringwood Bypass and onto the Eastern Freeway, it will cost $2.06 each way ($1.65 w/end). Wasn't this Eastern Fwy extension meant to be done years ago, and wouldn't it have been built without tolls? Or because of the tunnel under Mullum Mullum, was there always going to be tolls?

I will most likely continue through Ringwood and jump on the Fwy at Springvale Rd. Why should we pay $2.06 for about 5-10km (3 Tollpoints), when a trip along the whole Mitcham -Frankston only costs $4.43(19 Tollpoints)??

The Ringwood bypass is toll free but not the Eastern Freeway tunnel.

Fair enough. So you bypass Ringwood and then get back on Maroondah Hwy just before Heatherdale Rd right? Don't know how much help that would be.

Or you just pay the toll. :)

Melbourne needs a completed ring road similar to the one in London, free of tolls and used to reduce traffic from needing to travel through the suburban streets.


Anyone that knows the M25 in London knows what a complete disaster it is. It's a fallacy that freeways reduce congestion and take traffic away from other roads. They may initially, but then they adjust people's travelling patterns and just generate more traffic. Most people living in Doncaster today would not consider taking a job in Frankston. But they will once the tollway is built. Traffic will just expand to use the road capacity that is available. It's a fact. I'm not anti-freeway either, I like driving on them and believe we need a good road infrastructure...but we need a better balance between new road and public transport investment.

I know the M25 is known as the worlds biggest car park, but London is a much bigger city than Melbourne. They also have a very good public transport system, so where does the blame lie?
London's "commuter belt" has a population of around 14 million people, Melbourne has 4-5 million. Until we reach a population close to 10+million the roads will not be in the state the M25 is. It shouldn't stop us from catering for for our future needs now.

The longer we wait, the more expensive and more difficult it will be to build it. Our car registrations and petrol taxes are supposed to go back into roads so this whole 'user pays' system already exists. Once the ring road exists, there wouldn't need to be another major freeway system built and we can invest more into public transport. How we invest more in public transport I'm not sure considering its been privatised.

Victoria has 4-5 million people, and I don't think all of them commute to Melbourne.

That new smartbus is interesting - although still shiteful services on weekends and public holidays, 6am - 9pm it's going to run on 15 minute frequencies - I wonder how long it will take before it becomes overcrowded?

http://www.thehoddlegrid.net/dump/wellington.jpg

They definitely have linked the Bus route quite well with the Dandenong / Frankston lines and major nodes along the route... but the frequencies... ffs!

I don't really see the big deal in Tollways. People in NSW and QLD are used to them, but then again, there are only 2-3 tolls per Mwy or Fwy. The Tollways in VIC have 5-6 shoved in one sector, like say Citylink Twy from the Airport to West Gate. It has about 4 alone and then the Monash fwy has about 5-6 so now I get It. The Vic Government is probably shove 5 toll booths into it and people hate that, especially if you have to pay $5 per toll. If the amount of Tolls were reduced and Fee lowered then people will be happy about it. The fees will also help to pay Improving the Road or roads in that area in Future.

That Smart Bus route is almost the extension of the Alamein Line that Mr T and I want to Rowville. Maybe (I wish!) this will be the start of our dream Mr T! Or maybe not! :(

That Smart Bus route is almost the extension of the Alamein Line that Mr T and I want to Rowville. Maybe (I wish!) this will be the start of our dream Mr T! Or maybe not! :(
More likely an excuse to delay any Rowville rail line even longer...

Victoria has 4-5 million people, and I don't think all of them commute to Melbourne.

That population figure for London of 14-15 million is for Greater London, including the commuter belt (around the ring road)
Greater Melbourne has a population of over 4 million so it is an accurate comparison. I can assure you that there aren't 14-15 million people commuting to central London every day.
Its not about commuting to inner Melbourne anyway, its about the ability to commute elsewhere without having to go through the city, or rely on suburban streets.

They should do a better system of Tolls then that. In Brisbane, Tolls range between a $1 - 20c and there is only 4. If the Vic Government was to have it that high, then not many people would use it much. If the Government were to have it between 20c - 80c then people would kinda stop whinging and use the road more. Some people are too ignorant to actually think about it. These Tolls are placed to help Pay to Improve the roads and even other things in the Community. But people are so stupid nowadays.

Um, the Gateway Bridge is $2.20. It's really worth it though, considering the motorway bypasses all of inner Brisbane (for us people coming from the south). I only ever need to use it going to the airport or going up the coast on holidays to visit the grandparents. People are usually not to bad with tolls until they start spending $6+ dollars a day on tolls. Trucking companies don't mind though, the fuel any of these new roads saves them more than makes up for the tolls. The north south tunnel looks like it will have a toll of ~$4 when it opens. And while in peak it might save you 10-20 minutes, off peak you would be lucky if it saves you more than 2-3.

Trust me - 15 minute services is more than most places in Australia!

Trust me - 15 minute services is more than most places in Australia!

I wouldn't use most places in australia as the yardstick for successful public transport. Indeed, there is just about nowhere in this country where the majority use PT for most to all of their trips.

Oi, 15 minutes is good. A bus that goes just near my house goes right into Surfers Paradise and only comes every hour

Oi, 15 minutes is good. A bus that goes just near my house goes right into Surfers Paradise and only comes every hour

Would you sell your car if you had a 15 minute service?

Of course not..

If I didn't have to catch 4 different buses each way to get to and from school, yes, I would.

And I can only get to Southport, Surfers or Broadbeach by only catching 1 or 2 buses. I can't get to HarbourTown, Burleigh, Robina, Coolangatta without catching atleast 3 buses. Now why on earth would I want to catch 3 buses and be on the buses and sitting at bus stops for around 1 and a half hours, when it might take me half a hour to get to these places by car?

And I can only get to Southport, Surfers or Broadbeach by only catching 1 or 2 buses. I can't get to HarbourTown, Burleigh, Robina, Coolangatta without catching atleast 3 buses. Now why on earth would I want to catch 3 buses and be on the buses and sitting at bus stops for around 1 and a half hours, when it might take me half a hour to get to these places by car?

If the buses were frequent, as in every 5-10 minutes, transfers did not cost extra, and routes followed a logical grid pattern along main roads, then it wouldn't really matter how many transfers would be required (though the grid should keep it down to one, two tops), since transfers in any direction at any point where routes intersect would only involve a few minutes wait.

I wouldn't use most places in australia as the yardstick for successful public transport. Indeed, there is just about nowhere in this country where the majority use PT for most to all of their trips.

And apart from Hong Kong, Singapore or the larger Japanese cities, can you think of any other developed country/city where this is the case??
Infact ANY western city? At all?

There has got to be a few parts of cities with genuinely good PT where there'd be at least a majority of journey to work trips. Even here in inner inner Melbourne, half the population drives to work, and a chunk of the others walk or cycle.

I'd wager a guess there is a majority in parts of Toronto, plus a few areas in the usual suspect European cities.

I love how they include the $20 million to widen Wellington Road to cope with the extra traffic from the tollway in the public transport expenditure. So it's really only 180 million to improved public transport and 2.5 billion on road funding :-)

And apart from Hong Kong, Singapore or the larger Japanese cities, can you think of any other developed country/city where this is the case??
Infact ANY western city? At all?

in hong kong's case, buses running during peak is about 1 or 2 minutes frequency, with 3 or 4 in off peak and longest waits are 15min. because of high frequency it is a big success, but high frequcy only because it is all high density flats which australia really lack in.

I love how they include the $20 million to widen Wellington Road to cope with the extra traffic from the tollway in the public transport expenditure. So it's really only 180 million to improved public transport and 2.5 billion on road funding :-)

If you look closer, it's only $33m in new PT projects vs $2.5bn for the new freeway. For every dollar on the PT projects they are spending $75 on the freeway.

However, of that $33m, $20m is for all intents and purposes extra car parking (not technically of any benefit to PT since it drives away those who might now walk to the station but whose homes are being demolished or who would otherwise feel less comfortable walking past acres of dead land, negating the theoretical positive of those who might start driving to a station). There's some station beautification, but really, four slightly less dreary stations won't bring a transport revolution. So in effect, it's just $13m in new PT, or every PT dollar being matched by $192 freeway dollars.

That's what the Government and the RACV means when they talk about how they support balanced transport.

Free toll credits in freeway contract (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,11104048%255E2862,00.html)
Herald Sun (www.heraldsun.com.au)
Jane Metlikovec
18 October 2004

USERS of the Mitcham-Frankston Freeway will get free toll credits if ConnectEast fails to meet performance targets, the State Government revealed yesterday.

In an Australian first, successful tollway bidder ConnectEast has declared regular users will be compensated once a year if the company does not meet performance benchmarks once the controversial tollway opens in 2008.

The benchmarks cover customer service, road condition, tolling accuracy, landscaping and environment.

No other tolled freeways in the country offer users compensation if performance standards are not met.

In its contract with the Bracks Government, ConnectEast has agreed to pay $830,000 to $15 million a year if it does not meet standards set out in a self-regulatory points system.

The money paid out will be divided into the accounts of regular users as toll credits.

Points are incurred if ConnectEast fails to answer phone calls, respond to complaints, provide customer statements or attend to accidents and breakdowns within a specified time.

If more than 500 points are accrued in a year, ConnectEast will start compensating the tollway's users.

The tollway will become one of the state's biggest landscape projects.

More than 40km of parkland will stretch along the Mitcham-Frankston Freeway when it is completed.

ConnectEast will plant 4.6 million seeds and trees along the road, and in the 30 new reserves that will surround the freeway, at a cost of $70 million.

Acting Premier and Minister for Environment John Thwaites said the park would include a network of wetlands to collect and treat stormwater run-off from the road, and the surrounding residential and industrial areas.

Did anyone see a news report the other night about the Westgate being at capacity? Apparently in two years it will take an hour just to cross the bridge alone during peak hour... Are there any proposals to solve this problem? Do you think it will also be tolled?

MG2

I think this thread should be merged with the other thread on the same topic into a PROJECT: Mitcham-Frankston Freeway thread (also the 'free' in freeway refers to a road which is 'free' of access rights from adjoing private land so it is still a freeway even if it is tolled :-)

The solution is to improve public transport to the west and southwest. Get more cars off the bridge, have 2 dedicated truck lanes and have an express lane like the Eastern Freeway.

Herald Sun (www.heraldsun.com.au)
Jane Metlikovec
18 October 2004

USERS of the Mitcham-Frankston Freeway will get free toll credits if ConnectEast fails to meet performance targets, the State Government revealed yesterday.

In an Australian first, successful tollway bidder ConnectEast has declared regular users will be compensated once a year if the company does not meet performance benchmarks once the controversial tollway opens in 2008.

The benchmarks cover customer service, road condition, tolling accuracy, landscaping and environment.

...

No road ever, ever has any problem with these (except maybe customer service) in its first year. It's 15 years down the track and half way through the concession period when the road starts to need resurfacing and half the landscaped plants are dead that they should be offering "credits"

Aussie Steve I believe the solution is to build another bloody bridge or tunnel to be frank.

Until I can walk out my front door, get onto a public transport service immediately and have it drop me off within 10m of wherever I want to go with no delays, and have that all for less than the cost of a trip in my Mazda, the car will be my prefered method of transport, and I'm sure that's the same for the majority of Melbourne residents. I take PT occasionally, but only when I'm not on a timeline or when (on the very rare occasion) it may be cheaper than to drive and park.

So, as PT is not going to be upgraded to that level anytime this century, what would everyone prefer from the three options they discussed on the news; 1) widen the bridge, 2) build another bridge or 3) build a tunnel?

MG2

Tolls or no tolls!! Melbourne's East needs this road! I'm not happy about having to pay tolls but this free/tollway must be built. Don't like talking politics, BUT! least Jeff Kennett was honest about City Link tolls! Bracks knew he was going to break his election promise well before the election! If you want progress, you don't vote labour!!! look it's past

So, as PT is not going to be upgraded to that level anytime this century, what would everyone prefer from the three options they discussed on the news; 1) widen the bridge, 2) build another bridge or 3) build a tunnel?

4) invest in Public Transport.

Until I can walk out my front door, get onto a public transport service immediately and have it drop me off within 10m of wherever I want to go with no delays, and have that all for less than the cost of a trip in my Mazda, the car will be my prefered method of transport, and I'm sure that's the same for the majority of Melbourne residents. I take PT occasionally, but only when I'm not on a timeline or when (on the very rare occasion) it may be cheaper than to drive and park.


The rule of thumb in planning circles for PT catchment is 400 metres or 1/4 mile or in layman's terms a 5 min walk. The 10m expectation is a little too high...

But wanting it to have extensive coverage is a good thing. Metro Toronto (every Westerner's favourite transit case study) has 96% of residents living within 400 metres of a bus, streetcar/tram or subway route with frequent services, lacking in most Aussie cities with the exception of Melbourne tram lines and agglomerations of bus routes eg. Anzac Pde in Sydney, South-East Busway in Brisbane.

As for Delays... well that depends on what you define as a delay. Your car stopping at a red light is a 'delay' too...

The rule of thumb in planning circles for PT catchment is 400 metres or 1/4 mile or in layman's terms a 5 min walk.

And a measure of the good placement of PT stops is the pedshed, which is a measure that can be used to measure the benefits of urban design models by mapping the walkable catchment of PT services. It ties into service usefulness but is on its own not enough to turn a bad service into a good one.

1. Select a threshold distance D. (Industry practice is 400 metres for bus or tram stops, for a walking time of roughly five minutes.)
2. On a map of the area, draw a circle of radius D centred on the stop.
3. On the street network, trace out all possible walking paths of distance up to D starting at the stop.
4. Shade in every block of land with frontage to the paths from (3).
5. Measure the total shaded area, and express this as a percentage of the area of the circle from (2).

It turns out that getting a figure higher than about 70% from this exercise is virtually impossible. Suburbs like North Carlton with rectilinear street grids get about 50-60%, while postwar subdivisions with curvilinear streets and lots of cul-de-sacs get around 10-15%.

The effect of moving a stop away from a street intersection and into the middle of a block can be seen in step (3) of this procedure. Essentially, a large proportion of the 400 metre maximum path length is 'used up' just getting from the stop to the cross street, so that overall penetration into the surrounding area is markedly reduced.

Anyway, this model can be used to both map the penetration of PT services into communities, help plan for better stop locations to minimise bitching about walking too far to get to the stop (by making sure that stops are always at intersections, never set back), while helping to plan new developments appropriately. Pity the servide delivery part of it never seems to kick in.

4) invest in Public Transport.

My point was that there will never be enough money spent on PT to convince the vast majority of Melbournians to consider it a viable option. So while we spend millions of dollars increasing the length of a particular train line or doubleing the capacity of trams or increasing bus routes there will still be hundreds of thousands of people chocking the bridge each week, running their cars longer, emitting more exhaust fumes, causing greater pollution... etc etc

Smeghead, what I was trying to say was, until PT is as convenient, cost effective, timely and reliable as travelling by car the percentage of people who use it will not grow significantly enough to warrant spending the kinds of money some people would like. The problem as I said is, people will still drive and we will still need roads. The question is, should it be another bridge, an addition to the current bridge or a tunnel.

MG2

We can't just keep widening the Westgate Freeway. Where on eartyh are all those cars going to go? How on earth are they going to move any faster if we just keep building more roads and purchasing more cars? What about the pollution from the cars and the volume of car parking that will be needed in the city? What about the smaller strees that will be full of cars not moving very fast?

Our freeways at the moment are great. We don not need to widen them. We need to link them up and at the same time improve PT. That is the solution. I don't want to live in LA. I want to live in Melbourne.

The question is, should it be another bridge, an addition to the current bridge or a tunnel.

None of the above. Just add a "bus and truck lane" with an enforcement camera to the existing bridge (presumably at the expense of a traffic lane). Everyone else can bring some music, switch off their engines and wait their turn.

The roads on either side of the West Gate (but especially in the city) couldn't handle free moving traffic from another bridge, deck or tunnel anyway.

Rivals rail at $200m deal (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,11112722%255E2862,00.html)
Herald Sun (www.heraldsun.com.au)
Ashley Gardiner
19 October 2004

STATE Government spending promises for better public transport in the eastern suburbs have been described as a sham.

As part of the Mitcham-Frankston tollway project announced last week, $200 million was been set aside for public transport.
But that figure includes annual spending on buses of $4.4 million for the duration of ConnectEast's agreement with the Government, almost 40 years.

Opposition transport spokesman Terry Mulder said that most of the money would not be spent until 2020.

"It's a sham and the greatest con of all time," Mr Mulder said.

Public Transport Users Association president Daniel Bowen said the Government was playing games with the figure.

"It's a few crumbs being thrown at public transport," Mr Bowen said.

"The bulk of the money is going to the road."

Mr Bowen said the

needed rail line from Huntingdale to Rowville could be built for that money.

The transport package announced last week included $20 million for upgrades to Dandenong, Heatherdale, Kananook and Noble Park stations.

It also included $13 million for the Wellington Rd bus, from Caulfield railway station to Stud Park Shopping Centre.

The $4.4 million spent over 38 years adds up to $167 million, bringing the total to $200 million.

A spokeswoman for Transport Minister Peter Batchelor said the $4.4 million a year was based on 2004 dollars and would rise with inflation.

"Once committed, it goes into the Department of Infrastructure base budget," Kate Leonard said. She said $4.4 million was an estimate and a lower cost may result from the tender process.

My point was that there will never be enough money spent on PT to convince the vast majority of Melbournians to consider it a viable option. So while we spend millions of dollars increasing the length of a particular train line or doubleing the capacity of trams or increasing bus routes there will still be hundreds of thousands of people chocking the bridge each week, running their cars longer, emitting more exhaust fumes, causing greater pollution... etc etc

Smeghead, what I was trying to say was, until PT is as convenient, cost effective, timely and reliable as travelling by car the percentage of people who use it will not grow significantly enough to warrant spending the kinds of money some people would like. The problem as I said is, people will still drive and we will still need roads. The question is, should it be another bridge, an addition to the current bridge or a tunnel.

MG2

While the community is prepared to subsidise the cost of running private cars on the public road system by all sorts of means including large health and police resources serving traffic management and road trauma, GST & Income tax subsidised "company" cars, allowing free kerbside parking, and free parking on public land (council car parks, railway parks etc) and allowing all vehicles to use the road whether the vehicles are fully occupied or running with 3 or 4 empty seats; Public transport is always going to be at a disadvantage.

That disadvantage is further compounded by a community which insists that public transport operators should run services in crush rather than comfort mode in peak periods and that services should be pared back outside peak periods.

Back to the westgate bridge dilemma; maybe tolls should be reimposed; it will make some people think about whether they really need to use the bridge. There was a large increase in traffic as soon as the tolls were removed in the 1980s and I just need to look at my own experience when the Tullamarine freeway was tolled - I changed my driving habits rather than pay the toll and the only inconvenience has been slightly slower trips from the airport or Hume highway. I had used it for short local trips but now use local roads instead with some (but really little) inconvenience.

Light rail for south-east (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/27/1098667833915.html)
The Age (www.theage.com.au)
By Philip Hopkins
28 October 2004

The Mitcham-Frankston tollway, including a light-rail link, is at the heart of a strategy to drive economic growth in Melbourne's south-east until 2030.

The strategy, to be launched today by State and Regional Development Minister John Brumby, will emphasise specific projects such as the synchrotron at Monash and the Carrum eastern treatment plant as catalysts for economic development.

Four years in the making, the plan covers 11 municipalities - Bayside, Cardinia, Casey, Frankston, Greater Dandenong, Kingston, Knox, Maroondah, Monash, Mornington Peninsula and Whitehorse - which have a gross regional product of $30 billion.

The main economic drivers are the manufacturing centres of Monash, Greater Dandenong, Kingston and Knox, and the aim is to provide better transport links with residential areas in the outer municipalities of Casey, Mornington and Cardinia.

Box Hill, Ringwood, Dandenong and Frankston are designated as four key transit cities, and the light-rail service along the Mitcham-Frankston corridor would connect three of the transit cities to the major activity centre of Knox.

hrmm... where does the Scoresby corridor intersect with Wellington Road?

Ringwood to Frankston is pretty frikking long - how the hell are people going to get to the 'Light rail' line in the first place? Drive their cars? thought so ;)

hrmm... where does the Scoresby corridor intersect with Wellington Road?

Ringwood to Frankston is pretty frikking long - how the hell are people going to get to the 'Light rail' line in the first place? Drive their cars? thought so ;)

thats being a bit harsh.

some of you have had some great ideas in fixing the problems with your own transport plans for the east etc. Why dont you send these plans to your local member or better yet, the office of the premier, and keep sending them every week until they respond to you.

Cheers

Dean - Melbourne

No it's not harsh - if it's not integrated with any other mode then that's exactly what will happen - I'm still waiting to see this Bus, Tram and Train plan that the DOI keeps saying it has under development - and the draft that was reported in the HUN before I give any feedback to the government.

We have been told that the Transport Plan will be released by the end of the year, but I am not going to hold my breath for that to happen. I am still curious to see it though! ;)

Presumably, light rail on Burwood Hwy will go out to Knox, then link up with the Scoresby Freeway light rail...no heavy rail extensions until 2030 then I guess. Light rail on dedicated lines can move quite fast if semi-proper stations and multistorey carparking (park & ride) was built.

^ and that's what we DON'T want (park & ride bullshit).

Precisely. By offering high density around future tram/train stops, you can have the patronage to support the PT service and you can do away with park n ride altogether. Saves money on buying land and construction. And the govt could make a fair bit of money flogging off land adjacent to stations to the good folks at Meriton. ;)

Precisely. By offering high density around future tram/train stops, you can have the patronage to support the PT service and you can do away with park n ride altogether. Saves money on buying land and construction. And the govt could make a fair bit of money flogging off land adjacent to stations to the good folks at Meriton. ;)

It really depends, around this way the biggest park and ride is nestled between a motorway and the freeway. In what could never be sold as high density, or used for any other purpose other than a garden. The land is worthless for anything else but makes that transit route take a significant load off the highway (as many people have no choice but to drive until that point due to the low density of the surrounding area).

P&R will always be essential while there are densities that do not support PT at the same time as you cannot afford all of those people to drive. Remembering that 1 park and ride in the city outskirts is 1 carpark saved in the CBD.

I hope dopey Doyle stops being so stupid and just gets on with life .
The toll road WILL be built by the private sector and will never be re-negoiated.
If the suckers in the eastern suburbs- you know the ones that voted Liberal after believing Costellos lies that the road would be free if you voted Liberal in the Fed election, I wonder how they feel now? :runaway:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/31/1099219993009.html

Road contract tight: lawyer

By Misha Ketchell
November 1, 2004

NEW doubts have emerged over Opposition Leader Robert Doyle's pledge to scrap tolls on the Mitcham-Frankston freeway after legal experts found there was no mechanism in the road contract to allow such a change.

The legal opinion, prepared by law firm Minter Ellison for the toll road authority, SEITA, concluded that if a Liberal Government tried to scrap tolls it would have to pay "full compensation" on the 35-year contract or pass a new law to limit compensation to toll road operator ConnectEast.

Such a move, warned lawyer John Walter, would be likely to damage Victoria's reputation by creating in financial markets a perception of "sovereign risk".

"The legislation, if passed, may also raise questions as to the willingness of the private sector to participate in public/private partnership projects in Victoria in the future," he said.

SEITA spokesman Brian Wilson said the road authority sought the legal advice after overseas investors expressed concern about the impact of Mr Doyle's pledge to scrap tolls on the $2.5 billion road.The advice is quite clear in the sense that it says there is no right of the state to renegotiate. Victoria just doesn't have a right to walk in and take away the rights of the company," he said.

"Victoria can't just withdraw the contract from ConnectEast. The only way that would happen would be to introduce legislation. That would mean nobody anywhere in the world would want to do business in Victoria ever again."

He said the Opposition pledge to scrap tolls was "purely a work of fiction, as no government would seriously consider jeopardising any future relationship with the private sector".

But Mr Doyle said SEITA had entered a political debate when it was supposed to be a road authority. "My message to them is stop running a political commentary and understand the role of a statutory authority or you will jeopardise a very important sharemarket float," he said.

He said the legal advice also appeared to contradict comments by ConnectEast chairman Anthony Shepherd, who had previously observed

that's right, Parliament could legislate away the toll road. But no one would every contract for the Victorian government again. What could happen is exactly what happens in Sydney: the Labor government was elected on its promise to remove the M4 and M5 tolls, but that proved too hard, so they decided on a cash back scheme (but for private motorists only).

But yes, the whole thing is getting stale.


How did Costello lie? There was Commonwealth funding provided under the "Roads of National Importance" program on the proviso that the road be built without tolls. It is and always was solely the Victorian government's decision whether or not that funding would be used.

that's right, Parliament could legislate away the toll road. But no one would every contract for the Victorian government again. What could happen is exactly what happens in Sydney: the Labor government was elected on its promise to remove the M4 and M5 tolls, but that proved too hard, so they decided on a cash back scheme (but for private motorists only).

But yes, the whole thing is getting stale.


How did Costello lie? There was Commonwealth funding provided under the "Roads of National Importance" program on the proviso that the road be built without tolls. It is and always was solely the Victorian government's decision whether or not that funding would be used.
A couple of ways , one - he alleges that if people voted heavily for the libs in the eastern marginal seats the Victorian govt would back down and stop the Tolls - that was never going to happen. Two- Costello's claim that the feds would pay for haf the road is a patent lie as he was only offering $520 million dollars for a road that will cost atleast 2.8 BILLION dollars and its Victorias fucken fuel tax money anyway not Canberras to give to states like QLDand WA!

There's federal taxes on petrol and then there's state tax on petrol. When the federal govt collects the fuel taxes, they can pretty much do whatever they like with the dosh and give it to whoever they like.

If you want more money, just raise the state tax on fuel. BTW, I believe WA has the highest state tax on fuel in Aust.

err Barney, WA is a net earner for the country, you might want to get it right before going off on a tangent, hrmm? :|

meanwhile today with a PWC report stating that it could cost minimum $4 billion (up to $7 billion) to buy out the contract just signed - which no exit clause is guaranteed - is Doyley going to pull that out of his arse, is the Federal Government going to buy votes for the Eastern suburbs at a state level? No.

A couple of ways , one - he alleges that if people voted heavily for the libs in the eastern marginal seats the Victorian govt would back down and stop the Tolls - that was never going to happen. Two- Costello's claim that the feds would pay for haf the road is a patent lie as he was only offering $520 million dollars for a road that will cost atleast 2.8 BILLION dollars and its Victorias fucken fuel tax money anyway not Canberras to give to states like QLDand WA!

Well I can't say I follow Victorian state politics, but wasn't this road only costing $1 billion not so long ago? And $800 million before that? sounds like half at some stage...

err Barney, WA is a net earner for the country, you might want to get it right before going off on a tangent, hrmm? :|

meanwhile today with a PWC report stating that it could cost minimum $4 billion (up to $7 billion) to buy out the contract just signed - which no exit clause is guaranteed - is Doyley going to pull that out of his arse, is the Federal Government going to buy votes for the Eastern suburbs at a state level? No.

Spot on! I think I can remember New South Wales premier 'Bob Carr' making a similar promise years ago to win government, not long after he won, he admited it would be toooo costly to break the contract, therefor, tolls remained!

yes but private motorists get their tolls reimbursed by the State Government.

Then the Labor Government became a convert to the BOOT toll-road philosophy, and now they've built more than the Libs did.

AM Edition:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Canberra-puts-1bn-ultimatum-on-Scoresby-tolls/2005/02/08/1107625209186.html

Canberra puts $1bn ultimatum on Scoresby tolls
By Paul Robinson and Kenneth Nguyen
February 9, 2005

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/02/08/canberra_toon_narrowweb__200x234.jpg

Illustration: Tandberg

The Federal Government is withholding more than $1 billion in road funding as it tries to force Victoria to abandon tolls on the Scoresby freeway.

The power play comes despite Victoria's major concession yesterday in backing down on its long-held opposition to attaching industrial-relations strings to federally funded projects.

Victoria's agreement to accept the National Building Code of Practice failed to persuade Canberra to release the money it needs to complete big road projects in Geelong, Deer Park and Pakenham and upgrades of the Western, Calder and Princes highways.

Federal Transport Minister John Anderson hailed Victoria's retreat on the code, but said building the Scoresby freeway with tolls would prevent the $1.5 billion Auslink package of road funds flowing to Victoria.

"We have an agreement with the State Government to build a toll-free freeway . . . and they've reneged on that agreement," a spokesman for Mr Anderson said.

"We want them to go back to it. Our money is on the table. It's ready to be spent."

The decision enraged Victorian Transport Minister Peter Batchelor, who had believed that Victoria's concession on the code was all that was required to gain the federal money.

Mr Batchelor accused Mr Anderson of lying to him on the issue, saying assurances had also been given to the people of rural Victoria before the last election that road funds would flow if the code was signed.

"This is unprecedented," Mr Batchelor said. "Never before has one government asked another government to break a legal contract with a publicly listed company.

"It's outrageous. It raises the question of sovereign risk. We'd be sued for $7 billion by ConnectEast, the company we signed a contract with to do the tolls. We won't do it. We won't succumb to that type of blackmail.

"It makes Australia look like a banana republic when investors can't be confident of reaching agreement with governments."

However, Victoria's retreat on the code will allow other projects, such as the Wimmera-Mallee pipeline, to proceed.

__________

And then at 3:20pm today:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Canberra-retreats-on-Scoresby-threat/2005/02/09/1107890243978.html

Canberra retreats on Scoresby threat
February 9, 2005 - 3:20PM

In an apparent about-face, the federal government today agreed to release almost $1 billion in funding for Victorian road projects, while "quarantining" another $520 million earmarked for a massive road project through Melbourne's east.

Yesterday the office of federal Transport Minister John Anderson said $1.5 billion in Auslink funds would be withheld until the Victorian government removed tolls on the Mitcham-Frankston project, commonly called the Scoresby freeway.

But in a statement overnight, Mr Anderson said as soon as Victoria "signs the AusLink Bilateral agreement, Australian government money will flow to roads projects in that state".

"However, if the state government does not remove the proposed toll on Scoresby, federal funding will not be made available for that project," he said.

Victoria and Canberra have been at loggerheads over funding for the controversial freeway since the Bracks government ripped up its electoral pledge to build the road without tolls.

Victorian Transport Minister Peter Batchelor said he welcomed Canberra's backdown and was ready to sign the bilateral agreement.

"We are prepared to accept $1 billion as the first instalment as part of a program to identify how the remaining $500 million, the Scoresby money, can be redirected to other Victorian projects," he said.

"The federal election is over, it's time to put the politicking aside and it's time to start building these roads and to do that we need the federal funds to enable the road projects to go ahead."

But Mr Anderson said he was not playing politics with the issue in an attempt to bolster the Victorian Liberals for the state election next year.

"My signature is on a document saying that we would provide money for a freeway and we regard it as a broken commitment," he told ABC Radio.

Victoria made a major concession to secure the Auslink funding by signing the National Building Code of Practice, which ensures construction sites are not closed shops for unionised labour.

Premier Steve Bracks also chided Canberra for trying to score "cheap political points".

"I understand that has been clarified by Minister Anderson today and those projects will proceed," he said.

"I regret the fact there was confusion in the minister's office overnight and they sought to have a political point made within a very few hours."

Mr Bracks said the state government would continue to campaign to have the $520 million tied to the Scoresby spent on other road projects, such as the Pakenham, Geelong and Deer Park bypasses and the Calder Freeway extension.

:lol:

ahh, got to love politics.

Anyhow, that $520 million (isn't that up $80 million from the budjet last May?!) should be released into the Auslink pool to be used on whatever project where-ever in the country. And frankly, Deer Park would be the one project that I think would be funded under it; the rest is fluff on inconsequential routes [nationally speaking]

At least now we will get 3 roads built for free!

Geelong Bypass
Pakenham Bypass
Caulder Freeway extension to Bendigo

But give us the rest of the money!!!!

So we can build a rail line or 2!

If Doyle want's war why not take half the traffic away and Build the Doncaster and Rowville Rail lines? It will cost about 2 Billion IIRC?

Thought I'd start a thread for this beast. Appologies if there's already one here but I couldn't find it. I have no photos yet but intend to take some in the next week and post here.

As this is such a huge project in Melbourne I thought there may be a few ppl keen on tracking the progress as it goes. I live in Ringwood so I'm naturally curious about the new tunnel and bypass that will be the most dramatic of the entire project IMO.

Works have definately begun at the site of the new tunnel portals, first just East of Park St, Mitcham and just North of Deep Creek Rd in Ringwood.

Does anyone else have any news about updates to sections of the Link near to them. The project website (www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html2/home/home/index.htm), whilst quite amazing isn't big on updates oir progress.

There was a thread on this project a while ago. The name EastLink is new though.

Major earthworks have started at the intersection of FTG road in Scoresby

merged.

Thanks Tays, and good to hear there major works visible in Scoresby as well/

Some Pics from Tuesday 2/5

Looking West from Mitcham Road (towards Springvale Rd)
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050502MitchamWestsml.jpg

Looking east from Mitcham Road (towards Park Rd)
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050502MitchamEastsml.jpg

Looking West from Park Rd (back towards Mitcham rd)
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050502ParkWestsml.jpg

Looking East from Park Rd (towards Tunnel portal)
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050502ParkEastsml.jpg

View looking West from Tunnel Portal (back towards Park Rd)
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050502portalsml.jpg

that last shot is looking over the old tennis club fence.

Lots of work done, tons of work to go. :runaway:

Nice work BigV.

They have started tunneling haven't they?

No tunneling as yet, but we should see some tunnels by the end of the year.

I live right around the corner from the Maroondah Hwy interchange, which should be fascinating to watch. Demolition works and land clearing are underway but no serious earthmoving yet. I will keep watching.

Blue

I'll add a few pics I took last weekend of the work from Deep Creek Rd soon.

Once completed will there be a need to complete the Ring Road Network, joining Eastlink to the Metropolitian Ring Road??

It doesn't matter whether there's a need for it or not - just wait for it to happen :bash:

There'll be a need for SG rail access to all the burgeoning industries in the SE before the link up of the freeways is 'needed'.

Please don't hate me for this... I know how damn frustrating it is when people ask stupid questions because they are two lazy to find answers for themselves - But I have trouble telling the difference: Eastlink is not the hotly contested Mitcham Frankston bypass is it? I know the location of eastlink (the donvale end of the eastern fwy). Is this what is also sometimes referred to as the 'Scoresby bypass'?

Hope you can understand my confusion! Thanks :runaway:

Eastlink is just rebranding - Eastern FWY extension and Scoresby originally, then Mitcham-Frankston FWY, now Eastlink.

I expect it'll be rebranded another 2 times before it opens in 2008 by Hacksy-Bracksy & Peter Spatula then rebranded once the libs bankrupt the state by removing the tolls, of which that policy will have no amendment regardless if Doyley's the leader - can't have tolls in self-serving auto-centric liberal territory(!), when they get into government again say 2010+ :lol:

I lub Vic politics.

55 new bridges, 6 pedestrian overpasses, 3 rail bridges, 39km of tollway and another 6-10km of links, on/off-ramps.

Big Job!

The answer to Nagelixin is YES, and I love trains too Tays. Why the pea-brains can't put a stop at southland, extend past epping, extend to Rowville etc is beyond me. These are the retards that take stops out of Collins St, of all places FFS.

yep, morons, and the major pity is: all political parties (save for Public Transport First) wouldn't be able to do much bout it :lol:

does anyone know anything much about the proposed Dingley and Healsville Freeways?
I can't get much information on them where i'm located. WHEN?WHERE?HOW? :) those types of questions...

Both freeways are legacys of the 1970s plan to criss cross Melbourne in freeways LA style. As far as I know Healesville is dead, although most of the reservation remains and I'd be surprised if Dingley is ever built although the idea resurfaces every now and again.

Both freeways are legacys of the 1970s plan to criss cross Melbourne in freeways LA style. As far as I know Healesville is dead, although most of the reservation remains and I'd be surprised if Dingley is ever built although the idea resurfaces every now and again.


I think the govt. sold off alot some of the reservation for the old Healesville plan.

The Healsville freeway was supposed to start at the end of Riversdale road but the freeway reservation was removed from the properties to the west of Springvale Road about 20 years ago.

So although the land is still subject to a freeway reservation I think there is no chance that it will ever be built west of Eastlink and only a very, very small chnace that it will ever get built east of eastlink to Lilydale as there will be no more suburban expansion in this growth corridor.

The Dingley freeway will be built from Perry Road to the South Gippsland Highway as part of Eastlink. It has been renamed the Southern Dandenong Bypass and will only be an arterial road at this stage.

Obviously sooner or later the government will have to extend both ends from Perry Road to the Westall Road Extension and from the South Gippsland Highway to the South Gippsland Freeway because the bypass will just have a traffic jam at each end under the current plans.

Nice easy way to lock in future road development by constructing a road that ends a few kilometres from it's logical conclusion :-)

Nice easy way to lock in future road development by constructing a road that ends a few kilometres from it's logical conclusion :-)

That's how they do it in Sydney. They build them from nowhere to nowhere and then fill in the gaps years later.

does anyone know anything much about the proposed Dingley and Healsville Freeways?
I can't get much information on them where i'm located. WHEN?WHERE?HOW? :) those types of questions...
Irregardless of whether they're dead or not, you can still see the "proposed" alingments in the Melway. (As well as quite a few others... Maps 88-9 are downright terrifying! :runaway: )

I live on Map 88 :)

I don't imagine that any of the freeways there will be built any time in the near-mid future - apart from the Westall Rd extension which is pretty much built to freeway standard except for a pedestrian crossing and one intersection.

There is a lot of undeveloped land out there though, but all the new developments are just the two storey sprawl type.

ok thanks, i think it would work out nicely having them there; it would also tkae the stress off medium level roads...

See Kingston Transport Study (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrne/vrnav.nsf/childdocs/-739177595C55F0B5CA256EC900144E12-849995DC660BB1ADCA256EC900144EC7-D74FBDC087F09884CA256FF5002132B1?open). There are a number of recomendations (some of which I don't agree with) in the report about road extensions/linkages.

What the fuck is going on here? Why are Vicroads acting like a consultant and undertaking transport studies for individual councils without input from DOI or DSE???

Why are we paying for Vicroads to undertake a study into road and public transport options for the City of Kingston? What a massive waste of money when Vicroads has an inherent bias which is clearly indicated by it's name? Is their any doubt that it's conclusions will be to build more roads?

VicRoads will also review the information contained in the ‘Regional Economic
Strategy for Melbourne’s South East (2003-2030)’, dated September 2003, undertake
further network modelling to identify other network opportunities and investigate
possible public transport improvements.

Vicroads will investigate public transport improvements in the South East??? Vicroads must DIE! hehehhe

Irregardless of whether they're dead or not, you can still see the "proposed" alingments in the Melway. (As well as quite a few others... Maps 88-9 are downright terrifying! :runaway: )

Check out Map 63, now that is an interesting one!!
I would love the Healesville one to be built, it would be great for me living in Mooroolbark.

No chance, say again no chance of the Healesville Freeway ever being built; a very small chance of the Dingley freeway ever being constructed west from the Westall Rd Extension through to where South Rd meets Warrigal Rd; or the rest of the Mornington Peninsula Fwy. Attitudes will only further consolidate against further freeway building in the east after Eastlink (otherwise known as Bracksies' fibway) is built.
I would wager the next serious freeway/tollway proposals that will yet be mooted (and possibly the last before we start flying around in airborne cars - don't laugh because it is coming) will be an underground link between Citylink near Flemington Bridge and the Eastern Fwy; and possibly a link between the eastern end of the metro Ring Road and the Eastern Fwy. Notwithstanding whether it is needed or not, (ask a large cross-section of residents living along major thoroughfares in the north-east, as well as businesses using an already filled-to-capacity Citylink what they think before drawing conclusions) would anyone like to wager a possible corridor for this missing link?

Blue

......... (ask a large cross-section of residents living along major thoroughfares in the north-east, as well as businesses using an already filled-to-capacity Citylink what they think before drawing conclusions) would anyone like to wager a possible corridor for this missing link?

Blue

The east bank of the Mullum mullum creek and the path of existing powerlines to Diamond Creek would seem to be the logical choice.

Some more pics from a week or so ago.

From Deep Creek Rd looking North West towards portal land
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050513EastlinkDeepCrksml.jpg

Another view
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050513EastlinkDeepCrk2sml.jpg

No action on the other side of the Road as yet.
Although in that general direction the following demolition was taking place...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050513EastlinkGornsml.jpg :eek2:

Not strictly Eastlink related but;

Deal seals cash for bypass projects
By Jamie Berry
May 28, 2005

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Tensions over funding for the EastLink tollway were put aside yesterday as the Federal and State governments signed a deal that will put more than $1 billion of federal money into other Victorian road and rail projects.

Both sides had baulked at signing the Auslink agreement while they argued over the controversial tollway.

Canberra has refused to release $560 million for the project unless the State Government honours its promise to build the road toll-free. But Prime Minister John Howard and Premier Steve Bracks finally agreed to disagree.

"In the interests of the Victorian people, it has been agreed to put the Scoresby funding issue to one side and sign the Auslink bilateral agreement," they said.

Victoria had cleared the way for the deal by promising to follow the national code that ensures building sites are not closed shops for union labour.

Under the agreement, Victoria will receive a $1.15 billion slice of $12.5 billion in federal funding over five years, to be spent on the Geelong and Pakenham bypasses, further upgrades to the Calder Highway and rail projects.

Advertisement
AdvertisementBut Mr Howard confirmed the Federal Government would not release the funds earmarked for EastLink.

"We have a position on Scoresby which has been articulated by me, by the Treasurer and by others and that stands," he said.

Announcing the agreement at Avalon airport, Mr Bracks said: "The Geelong bypass is the most important infrastructure project to be built in this region for several decades." Once tenders were called, construction would begin by the end of the year.

"At the completion of the project in 2009, motorists will enjoy a 23-kilometre freeway with two lanes in each direction, avoiding up to 29 sets of traffic lights," he said.

Geelong Mayor Shane Dowling said the announcement was "a huge benefit" to a city that was expected to grow by 50 per cent - or another 100,000 people - over the next 25 years.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/05/27/28n_map.gif

Let's hope they can get the Eastlink funding organised. I understand the federal governments position but at the end of the day, they really can't remove the tolls now. They're going to have to come to some sort of compromise over funding.

^^^ Thank God people wont be subjected to Geelong while on their merry way to the surf coast!

PS i think the powers that be in the Geelong City Council must all have shares in whoever manufactures traffic lights! everytime i turn around a new set is going in, and they never, ever, EVER synchronise them in ANY stream. so you constantly run into red lights now matter what direction your going or which way you turn. Its quite a feat come to think of it actually....I think Geelong must be the traffic lights per head of population capital of the world!

This is the route they need to build. The bypass must connect to the Surf Coast Highway, otherwise cars heading to Torquay will still drive through Geelong to get there!

http://img157.echo.cx/img157/7392/28nmap1yp.gif

Anyone out in the 'burbs got any updates or pics as to what's happening along the route. Is there much earthmoving going on? All I know is what's happening at the Mitcham end.

^ A Lot of work is happening at the Heatherton Road/Princes Hwy junction (Bulldozers, turned soil, concrete barriers and fencing) soil is being turned along Worsley Road south of Keysborough and at Thompson Road where is intersects (not too far from where it will join at Frankston Freeway) No pics sorry!

Serious earthmoving now underway just north of Maroondah Hwy. This interchange will be fun to watch; there's ramps and gradients going all over the shop.

Blue

there's been some clearing on the south side of the rail line at Yarraman, and some fencing, not much else.

This is the route they need to build. The bypass must connect to the Surf Coast Highway, otherwise cars heading to Torquay will still drive through Geelong to get there!


Yeah for the twice yearly holiday traffic jams, geez that's really gotta make the Geelong Bypass economically viable. No really, all it will do is turn Geelong into more of a car dependant satellite suburb of Melbourne, than it already is.

I say give Geelong a decent bus network, connecting with a rail service with minimum frequencies of 30 min. Then just let the holiday traffic bank up twice a year. Oh and if that's not enough to satisfy to the infrastructure urges then you could through in some tram routes and still come off at a fraction of the price of the freeway. Maybe also reopen the Queenscliff line.

^^^^ Holiday traffic twice a year???? How does every friday night sound?

I agree, the volume of traffic in and around Geelong Monday to Friday is hell. This bypass is needed, but I again stress the need for imrpoved PT in Geelong. Both projects must go hand in hand.

I don't understand why they don't upgrade the line to Geelong to enable electric services???

And the bypass is definately needed :)

Some pics from the Seita/Eastlink/MitchamFrankston (http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html2/home/home/index.htm) whatever it's called this week web site. They've just added a photo gallery (http://www.seita.com.au/html2/news/phot/cons/050617/050617_1.htm) section which is cool.

These pics are all of the Western tunnel portal near Park Road.

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050506Portalwest.jpg
May 6

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050512Portalwest.jpg
May 12

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050524Portalwest.jpg
May 24

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/cashflowaustralia/pictures/20050617Portalwest.jpg
June 17

Pretty good going. :)

prep work is in full swing at Yarraman station and Cheltenham roads in Dandy too.

The overpass is practically going to be on top of Yarraman station (or at least Yarraman could easily be moved to fit under it for any future interchange whether it be BRT or Rail)

Some new pics on the Seita (http://www.seita.com.au) website including this baby - new header machine ready to go at Eastern tunnel portal (http://www.seita.com.au/html2/news/phot/cons/050630/050630_1.htm).

Sorry too lazy to post actual pics right now - links will have to do.

Prep or consturction work seems to be running full steam accross the whole project from Mitcham to Frankston! It's really pressing ahead wasting no time.

hey in relation to the Dingley Freeway which was discussed a whiel back in this thread, sayign that it will never be built; than why are they constructing a partial freeway for it, in about a 3km radius of Eastlink. Look on the map, below the Mosnah Freeway interchange. Why are they building that big ugly straight line of freeway, in the location right to connect wit hthe dingley. Is it just because they want to keep their options open, or are they really going to go along with it???

here is some info i found...it aaint very new, but it's something:

The Mitcham to Frankston freeway will be a major attractor of traffic that will need to traverse local arterial systems. As a consequence there are likely to be significant localised impacts on linking transport systems. Without improvements such as the addition of additional lanes on existing arterial roads or the construction of the Dingley Freeway Council studies have shown that there will be congestion and disruption to public transport schedules on existing arterial roads that are currently nearing capacity.

Mitcham to Frankston Freeway and associated public transport and freight upgrades (Provides vital north south links between production areas and
transport hubs and provides relief to existing arterial serving the wide population) -Planned and committed


Dingley Freeway (in particular sections between South Gippsland Hwy and Mitcham-Frankston Freeway)
(The construction of Dingley between South Gippsland Highway and Mitcham Frankston transport corridor (known as the Dandenong Southern Bypass) will provide easier access for transport movements around Dandenong and the surrounding area)
-Reservation in place. No commitment

So hopefully once Eastlink is built and being built, they will see the need for the Dingley Freeway.:)

The section of the Dingley Freeway is going to be built as an arterial road - probably without provision to turn it into a freeway - however the only part of the Dingley Freeway that was built exists as Westall Rd between Springvale and Heatherton Rd, that section is built almost to freeway standard with a 100km/h speed limit.

The City of Greater Dandenong wanted that bit built, the road network really does start dropping off past Dandenong.

How bout the section that will join the two sections of the Mornington Pen Frwy, does anyone know if there are plans to connect them in the near to mid future?

del

please delete - pressed send too much

So hopefully once Eastlink is built and being built, they will see the need for the Dingley Freeway.:)

I'm sure thats the plan - that's how every other major road has been built in the last half a century. Keeps the vicroads mafia very happy. Wouldn't like to know what it'd do to South Road/Nepean Hwy.

Better still - in 10 years they'll probably need to widen Citylink, then they can double the tolls, and it won't be paid off till 2050. Might sound like a joke, but who in 1970 would have thought the newly build West Gate Bridge would "need" dupication in less than 40 years?? Don't forget Melbourne's growth (and more importantly traffic growth) is exponential, so a freeway built now doesn't have a 50 year lifespan before it reaches capacity, because if it did, then it wouldn't be actually needed now, right?

Great to see the powers that be thinking of themselves rather than their grandchildren.

I would hope that the Dandenong Southern Bypass (Dingley Freeway) does get extended to the South Gippsland Freeway and to the Westall Road extension which will be converted to freeway standard.

Does anyone think that Doyle will be able to buy out the contract?

Doyle is a moron! And NO is the answer to your question. We need more tollways not fewer!

The tunnel to Ringwood is the only thing about the tolls that is screwy, given the history, but I'm happy to pay tolls (which are not too bad on the rest of the route) to get to the Monash or even Franga. It's no skin off my nose if I don't use it, and even the tightwads who winge will find Stud/Springvale will be so much clearer. That's the benefit of this road.

I guess the Geelong bypass proposals mean that the bridge over Corio Bay proposal doesn't have any chance of going ahead?

Yes, thank God, the bridge over the Corio Bay will never happen. It was a silly idea in the first place. The Geelong Bypass will now do what it says, bypass Geelong and link the Princess Freeway with the Midalnd Hwy, Hamilton Hwy and Princess Hwy. They are also planning on linking it to the Surf Coast Hwy. If the bridge was built, there would be no link to the Midland & Hamilton Hwys.

Wednesday, 17 August 2005

ROAD HEADER STARTS WORK ON MULLUM MULLUM TUNNELS (http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html2/news/news_articles.asp?status=1&NAID=72)

http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html2/news/data/MED_NEWS_72_1.jpg

The $2.5 billion EastLink Project achieved another major milestone today with the start of excavation work on the 1.6km tunnels underneath the Mullum Mullum Valley.

Watching a road header start excavation of the first tunnel, Mr Bracks said the start of work on Melbourne's new tunnels highlighted the enormous progress on EastLink since work began in March.

Mr Bracks said the start of tunnelling was also a great day for locals who fought a long battle to protect the Mullum Mullum Valley via the construction of long tunnels.

"Work on the $2.5 billion EastLink Project is progressing at a rapid pace, with construction underway at 10 fronts along the route," Mr Bracks said.

"More than $500 million in contracts have already been let as construction surges towards a peak expenditure of nearly $100 million per month - the biggest monthly construction spend on a road project in Victoria's history.

"More than 800,000 cubic metres of earth has already been moved and placed along the alignment, including massive excavation at both tunnel faces to allow the start of tunnelling today.

"Motorists travelling along Maroondah Highway, Boronia Road, Ferntree Gully Road, High Street Road, Princes Highway, Cheltenham Road and Thompson Road can already see the massive construction works underway."

Transport Minister Peter Batchelor said tunnelling would commence at the other three tunnel faces when new tunnelling machines arrived in September and October.

"When tunnelling moves into top gear, the four road headers will work simultaneously, with two road headers operating from the western end of the tunnels in Donvale and the other two road headers operating from the eastern end at Deep Creek Road in Ringwood.

"This constant tunnelling is required to excavate the 450,000 cubic metres of earth that will be removed from the tunnels during the two and a half years of construction."

Measuring 1.6 kilometres in length, the EastLink tunnels are approximately the length of the Domain tunnel on CityLink.

Excellent, someone else is hitting the website for updates besides me. These things are meant to be going 24/7 from what I've read.

New piccies of tunnel header now online (http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html2/news/phot/cons/050825/050825_1.htm)
Enjoy!

Thanks for the link Big V this is sure one big mother of a project.

Bracksflip, now Doyleyflip

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/doyle-fails-to-deliver-notoll-promise/2005/09/15/1126750065407.html

Doyle fails to deliver no-toll promise
By Matt Murphy
September 15, 2005 - 2:54PM

State opposition leader Robert Doyle has backflipped on his party's no-tolls policy on the Mitcham-Frankston Freeway, now known as EastLink.

Instead Mr Doyle has promised half tolls, effectively cutting the price to $2.98 per trip for cars and motorcyles using the tollway until 2014.

The toll system would be similar to the cashback system which former NSW premier Bob Carr established for the M4 and M5 motorways.

According to Mr Doyle, research done by eco-modelling firm Econtech suggested that removing tolls would cost $4.3 billion, not the $7 billion estimated by the Bracks Government.

At this stage, Mr Doyle could not ensure that the $542 million from Commonwealth on the proviso of a no-toll freeway was still on the table.

- theage.com.au

___________________________________

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/doyle-toll-plan-reckless-says-bracks/2005/09/15/1126750059294.html

Doyle toll plan reckless, says Bracks
September 15, 2005 - 12:11PM

Victorian Premier Steve Bracks has condemned state opposition leader Robert Doyle's plan to use government cutbacks to fund his promise to scrap tolls on a controversial motorway.

Later today Mr Doyle is due to announce full details of his proposal which involves a $584 million savings plan to help pay the tollway operator for its lost revenue.

Most of the savings would come from massive cuts to bureaucracy, with the Department of Premier and Cabinet the biggest target.

Advertising and consultants would also be slashed while hospitals, schools, community services and police would be exempt from the savings plan.

Mr Bracks said communities would suffer from lost services under the the proposal.

"These are reckless cuts," Mr Bracks told reporters.

"They remind me absolutely of what happened in seven years of the Kennett government.

"I'm not sure if Victorians want to go back to a period where we can slash services, reduce the funding to community groups and organisations."

Mr Bracks said Mr Doyle's promise to lift tolls could not be forced on the ConnectEast consortium which won a $2.5 billion contract to build the motorway.

"This is a contractual obligation, a concession deed which has been written, legally enforceable, enshrined in legislation which cannot be be simply ripped up or changed."

Mr Bracks seized on reports Mr Doyle's proposal was modelled by Econtech, the company which worked on the Western Australian opposition's disastrous electoral pledge to built a canal from the state's north to Perth.

"It was totally unfunded, uncosted, unviable," the premier said.

"If it's Econtech they've had a 'one strike and you're out' already in Western Australia."

In April 2003, Mr Bracks sparked community outrage when he dumped an election promise to build the freeway without tolls through Melbourne's east.

The Victorian Liberals have opposed the back-flip and promised they could fund their vow to lift tolls on the Mitcham-Frankston Freeway, now known as EastLink.

The federal government has withheld more than $500 million in funds for the project unless the Victorian government agrees to build the road without tolls.

The 39km project runs through Melbourne's outer east, joining Mitcham in the north and Frankston in the south.

AAP

___________

if the Libs (at a state and federal level) really want to buy back into their heartland, they should sit up and listen to Knox, Whitehorse and Manningham's - each of those three councils want PT improvements (Knox wants Rowville line and Manningham the Doncaster line)

$500million would go a long way in PT-related projects.

Doyle is a moron. What an about face. He is a joke as is the Liberal Party in Victoria. They will never get back with the clowns they have running it at the moment!

And yes, Mr T you are right yet again. The $500m the Fed Govt is with-holding from Victoria should be given over to us for PT improvements NOW!!!

Looks like Bracks will be premier for many years to come...

Looks like Bracks will be premier for many years to come...
Oh god nooooo!

Well, the alternative is a waste of space with no brains who wants to build freeways and neglect Public Transport. Doesn't Doyle get the hint that he must do both to get elected not just one?

Well, the alternative is a waste of space with no brains who wants to build freeways and neglect Public Transport. Doesn't Doyle get the hint that he must do both to get elected not just one?

Bracks builds freeways and neglects public transport, and he got elected. Twice.

^ Yeah exactly - The line a SMART opposition should take would be something along these lines...

"Bracks has forced the tolls upon the people of the east with no alternative but to pay it....Bracks broke his promise to keep it toll free, but with the contract in place, renegotiating and removing tolls would disadvantage the rest of Victoria....So instead, with federal government support we will make significant upgrades to public transport in the east....it's about providing choice, which is something Bracks has failed in....."

This kind of line would get the support of the Greens as well, which would be a novelty for the libs, and may help them in the inner city too, where there is high green support.

[QUOTE=OSJ]^ Yeah exactly - The line a SMART opposition should take would be something along these lines...

The problem for the Libs is that Doyle is obviously not SMART. :nuts:

^ Yep. And I just read in the age that Doyle hasn't even got the funding from the federal libs. The whole approach was just completely stupid. How could a party go from as politically successful during the Kennett years to their current standing??

OSJ, you are right. That would win Doyle seats at the next election, but I can't see him doing that. Pitty!

Months ahead of schedule: builders (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/months-ahead-of-schedule-builders/2005/09/15/1126750078270.html)
By Dan Silkstone
Transport Reporter
The Age (www.theage.com.au)
16 September 2005

FROM the air the scarified earth is fast becoming fresh bitumen as Melbourne's newest tollway takes shape.

And work on the Mitcham-Frankston motorway — now known as EastLink — is four months ahead of schedule, the State Government announced yesterday.

More than 900,000 cubic metres of earth have been ploughed up as workers from construction consortium Thiess John Holland busy themselves along 15 separate work fronts. Already it is 15 kilometres long but when it opens in late 2008, this tollroad will stretch from Mitcham in the east to Frankston in the south.

ConnectEast, which will run the toll road, says it will not open in stages. Motorists will not drive on any part of the road until every centimetre is completed.

More than 1200 roadworkers, engineers and others are already working on the project with numbers due to swell by several hundred in the coming 12 months and hit 2000 in two years' time.

At $2.5 billion it is a mammoth project — 45 kilometres of motorway, including six kilometres of untolled bypasses at Ringwood and Dandenong.

Entrances and exits will be built at major points including the Eastern, Monash and Frankston freeways. On top of this, the project includes 17 major interchanges, 86 bridges and seven million cubic metres of earthworks.

The tolling system alone, still being designed, is valued at $200 million. Bridge building has begun at Oakwood Avenue, Halton Road, Princes Highway, Cheltenham Road and Railway Parade.

But the centrepieces of the project are the twin tunnels at the road's northern end. Each will carry three lanes of traffic for 1.6 kilometres as the tollroad dives under Mullum Mullum Creek.

Thiess John Holland spokesman Anthony Havers said the project was ahead of schedule because the building team had benefited from better than expected weather.

"At this stage everything's on track for us to be finished in late 2008," he said.

Bracksflip, now Doyleyflip

Doyle only "flipped" so to speak because 2 "Arse-Holes" ( Bracks and Bachelor :rant: ) have blown the surplus in the budget yet again :hammer:, and the tollway is now impossible to build for free. Doyle was only going off the figures he had at the time, and at the time of those figures, the Tollway could have been built for free, but since then, 2 clowns :clown: in the labour party have screwed it all up again as usual ! :rant:

God help our state if those 2 dickheads get elected for another term in Victoria ! :rant:

Lozza

Doyle only "flipped" so to speak because 2 "Arse-Holes" ( Bracks and Bachelor :rant: ) have blown the surplus in the budget yet again :hammer:, and the tollway is now impossible to build for free. Doyle was only going off the figures he had at the time, and at the time of those figures, the Tollway could have been built for free, but since then, 2 clowns :clown: in the labour party have screwed it all up again as usual ! :rant:

God help our state if those 2 dickheads get elected for another term in Victoria ! :rant:

Lozza

What I want to know is how a supposedly Liberal opposition is against the bedrock neo-liberal principle of user pays? Doyle is a clown alright - but not for the reasons you suppose!

Lozza you've read my mind buddy! The public is very angry about Doyle's backflip so those 2 shitheads (bracks and batchelor) will be re-elected for sure. :bash:

Doyle only "flipped" so to speak because 2 "Arse-Holes" ( Bracks and Bachelor :rant: ) have blown the surplus in the budget yet again :hammer:, and the tollway is now impossible to build for free. Doyle was only going off the figures he had at the time, and at the time of those figures, the Tollway could have been built for free, but since then, 2 clowns :clown: in the labour party have screwed it all up again as usual ! :rant:

God help our state if those 2 dickheads get elected for another term in Victoria ! :rant:

Lozza

Does anyone of you liberal party supporters actually have any facts at all about this??? i think not. the reason is that since 1999 ,when Bracks came to power, his government has had big budget surplus' every single year, and has actually reduced debt as a percentage of state GDP over the previous govt. Although they were rather conservative during their first term, there has been a general consensus that they have managed the states finances very soundly.

so what are you talking about here???

Cheers

Dean - Melbourne

....and the tollway is now impossible to build for free....

When was it ever possible to build it for free???

Doyle only has himself to blame for this mess. If they could have done it "for free" as you put it (in other words not user pays) then it would have given a free kick to Labor in places like ballarat or geelong which are marginal seats which would get no benefit from a toll-free eastlink.

All Doyle would have to do is nothing, and just say the contracts are in place, nothing we can do, we won't lie, yada yada... The heat would all be on Bracks. He's just an idiot for what he did, and many in the Liberal Party seem to agree.

I'm not a fan of Bracks, but Doyle has shown nothing of the political smarts of Kennett/Stockdale. And so long as he is worse than Bracks on issues such as urban planning and public transport, they won't get MY vote. Sadly, in saying this I am in no way saying Bracks has done a good job in these areas.

And I am one of those who believe people SHOULD be paying for expensive purpose built motorways - the same way we have to pay for public transport.

Every billion dollars NOT spent on a freeway is a billion dollars for services, education, PT, and so on..

I am not for one minute saying that Doyle is not an idiot for saying what he has said recently ! I agree he shouldnt have opened his mouth in the first place , believe me !

The fact of the matter is , i don't care what anyone says, i am convinced that Victoria is going backwards with Bracks and Labour , and the sooner you Morons out there get the "Wool pulled off from over your eyes the better it will be for all of us" as you are all being deceived and conned , and it makes me sick! :puke:

I am not for one minute saying that Doyle is the answer, but he would sure as hell do a better job than "Mr All Talk But No Action unless it costs the taxpayers of Victoria Financially Man Steve Bracks!"

Tossers, just open your eyes and look at how everyone is being screwed in this State Financially by these arseholes ! From speeding fines, to land tax, to car registration, to the old age and pensioners getting screwed, to the wasted money on investigations and enquiries that have no fucking relevence in society that are constantly on the go from this government! And what about all the handouts, perks , huge superannuation payouts and all the other shit that these "arse hole politicians" get ? Is that fair i ask you? :rant:

Why dont these pricks actually do something proactive and worthwhile in our state! Its all just a revenue raising scam! It makes me sick ! :puke:

Lozza

I am not for one minute saying that Doyle is not an idiot for saying what he has said recently ! I agree he shouldnt have opened his mouth in the first place , believe me !

The fact of the matter is , i don't care what anyone says, i am convinced that Victoria is going backwards with Bracks and Labour , and the sooner you Morons out there get the "Wool pulled off from over your eyes the better it will be for all of us" as you are all being deceived and conned , and it makes me sick! :puke:

I am not for one minute saying that Doyle is the answer, but he would sure as hell do a better job than "Mr All Talk But No Action unless it costs the taxpayers of Victoria Financially Man Steve Bracks!"

Tossers, just open your eyes and look at how everyone is being screwed in this State Financially by these arseholes ! From speeding fines, to land tax, to car registration, to the old age and pensioners getting screwed, to the wasted money on investigations and enquiries that have no fucking relevence in society that are constantly on the go from this government! And what about all the handouts, perks , huge superannuation payouts and all the other shit that these "arse hole politicians" get ? Is that fair i ask you? :rant:

Why dont these pricks actually do something proactive and worthwhile in our state! Its all just a revenue raising scam! It makes me sick ! :puke:

Lozza
Mate if you are so upset and think the State is being rooned well its simple really JOIN a political party and put your effort where your mouth instead of whingeing from the sidelines.

Doyle only "flipped" so to speak because 2 "Arse-Holes" ( Bracks and Bachelor :rant: ) have blown the surplus in the budget yet again :hammer:, and the tollway is now impossible to build for free. Doyle was only going off the figures he had at the time, and at the time of those figures, the Tollway could have been built for free, but since then, 2 clowns :clown: in the labour party have screwed it all up again as usual ! :rant:

God help our state if those 2 dickheads get elected for another term in Victoria ! :rant:

Lozza
Where I come from there is no such thing as a FREE anything.
The rest of the Victorian taxpayers - yes you and me would have paid for a few middle class eastern suburbs freeloading whingers getting to use the road "free" thats why they are whingeing .
I would much rather see the money spent on PT and other important projects like the new Convention Centre.
The Victorian budget is still in surplus. The only dickhead in this fiasco is the idiot Doyle who got sucked in.

Mate if you are so upset and think the State is being rooned well its simple really JOIN a political party and put your effort where your mouth instead of whingeing from the sidelines.

i will winge if i want buddy ! And yes, maybe i should get into politics ! Coz i would do a damn site better than most of them in there currently mate !

lozza

I am not for one minute saying that Doyle is not an idiot for saying what he has said recently ! I agree he shouldnt have opened his mouth in the first place , believe me !

The fact of the matter is , i don't care what anyone says, i am convinced that Victoria is going backwards with Bracks and Labour , and the sooner you Morons out there get the "Wool pulled off from over your eyes the better it will be for all of us" as you are all being deceived and conned , and it makes me sick! :puke:

I am not for one minute saying that Doyle is the answer, but he would sure as hell do a better job than "Mr All Talk But No Action unless it costs the taxpayers of Victoria Financially Man Steve Bracks!"

Tossers, just open your eyes and look at how everyone is being screwed in this State Financially by these arseholes ! From speeding fines, to land tax, to car registration, to the old age and pensioners getting screwed, to the wasted money on investigations and enquiries that have no fucking relevence in society that are constantly on the go from this government! And what about all the handouts, perks , huge superannuation payouts and all the other shit that these "arse hole politicians" get ? Is that fair i ask you? :rant:

Why dont these pricks actually do something proactive and worthwhile in our state! Its all just a revenue raising scam! It makes me sick ! :puke:

Lozza
Yeah that's right... we're all blind to the truth, aren't we?? You, in your all-encompassing wisdom know more than all of us put together. How could we have been so blind?! IT'S ALL BRACKS' FAULT!!!!!!

:|

Yeah that's right... we're all blind to the truth, aren't we?? You, in your all-encompassing wisdom know more than all of us put together. How could we have been so blind?! IT'S ALL BRACKS' FAULT!!!!!!

:|

Its good to see that you are finally admitting it ! Maybe you aren't as stupid as i thought you were then! hehe !

Lozza

Well just do it mate and prove yourself. I hate gunnerbes nothing gets done by whingeing .

Well just do it mate and prove yourself. I hate gunnerbes nothing gets done by whingeing .

Point taken ! maybe i will ! :) :)

Lozza

lozza we must be twins! I hate the shithead Bracks government as passionatley as you. Finally someone who actually knows whats going on and is not blinded by political correctness. Finally someone who is not afraid to speak up. Congrat's buddy, your a legend in my book! As for Arunava and Auslankan, they can continue licking Bracksy's ass and call it ice cream.

lol, lozza ladies and gents, lozza ;)

when you coming to the next meet loz?

lol, lozza ladies and gents, lozza ;)

when you coming to the next meet loz?

hehe ! i love how passionate everyone gets ! hehe ! Taking it all seriously and all !

yeah, my apologies mate ! i will be there next one ! been a bit busy of late, was in brisbane at the time of the last meet.

when is the next meet again?

lozza

All this whinging about the tolls and no mention of the real backflip! Bracks wasn't ever going to build the thing and instead was going to invest in public transport but he backflipped on this in 2000 and like every other government, has continued to neglect public transport.


The Age
August 8, 2000
SECTION: News; Pg.1
LENGTH: 563 words
HEADLINE: Labor In Freeway U-turn
BYLINE: Sushi Das Transport Reporter

BODY:
The Bracks Government, in a major policy about-face, is expected today
to confirm plans to build the contentious Scoresby Freeway in
Melbourne's outer east.

Having dumped plans for the $800million freeway on winning office last
year, the government has put it back on the agenda by seeking federal
funding.

The government is expected to give details today on how a financial
partnership with Canberra and the private sector might work. This will
include asking the Howard Government to classify the Scoresby project as
a road of national importance so that it can qualify for federal
funding.

The Scoresby Freeway would run from Ringwood to Frankston. Combined with
plans for a further extension to the Eastern Freeway, it would create an
uninterrupted link between the Eastern and Frankston freeways.

Plans for the project were ditched in late October when the government
announced it would instead embark on an outer-eastern public transport
strategy in a bid to ease growing north-south traffic congestion in the
area.

The Kennett government had planned to examine development options and
pursue Commonwealth funding for the Scoresby Freeway. It had also
rejected an independent panel's compromise solution to protect
environmentally sensitive land at the Frankston end of the project.

A spokesman for the Bracks Government, which has promised not to use
tolls to fund road projects, said an announcement on the freeway was
planned for today.

As part of its outer-eastern public transport strategy, the government
said it would improve public transport as well as enhance Stud Road,
develop the Dingley Bypass and complete the extension of the Eastern
Freeway from Springvale Road to Ringwood without compromising the
environment of the Mullum Mullum Creek valley''.

The Public Transport Users Association, which has spent the past three
years fighting the Scoresby Freeway plan with the help of local
residents and environmental groups, attacked the government for its
change of heart.

Having won the election, the Bracks Government now seems more interested
in following someone else's agenda,'' the association's latest
newsletter says.

Association president Paul Mees has previously described the Scoresby
Freeway plan as a mad, expensive idea that was never going to address
the transport problems of the Scoresby corridor''.

Deputy Prime Minister and federal Transport Minister John Anderson said
the State Government had not indicated what priority it gives the
Scoresby Freeway in terms of the overall Victorian road network''.

There has been no indication that the Victorian Government has
considered private finance options to bankroll construction of the
Scoresby Freeway,'' he said.

State Opposition transport spokesman Geoff Leigh said the government
needed to clarify its plan for the freeway. He said he had been informed
by a senior member of the government that the plans included an
extension of the Eastern Freeway to the Burwood Highway.

The cost of the road could blow out by an extra $550 million, Mr Leigh
said. It is my understanding that they (the government) want the Federal
Government to put up the first $80 million,'' he said.

We have someone who is very angry with the government, someone who is on
their side ... who believes that what they are doing is carrying on the
work the Liberals were doing.''

Does anyone know how many lanes in each direction is this tollway going to have?

EastLink News, September 2005 (http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au/html2/news/data/NEWS_90_1.pdf)