What interesting ideas have you got for improving Belfast in the close & distant future. For the sake of keeping the thread interesting stay away from things suggested a dozen times elsewhere. So no pleas for the Aurora, the replacement of all tarmac pavements, or my own high brow desire, more off licenses to be opened in the city centre.

Here's 2 of my ideas, both of which are sadly very unlikely to happen.

1. A large library in the south side of the centre. Keep the central library but open a smaller but still impressive library closer to the action, ie. south of Donegall Place but north of Dublin Road cinema. Something around double or triple the size of the larger suburban libraries, with lots of books and less computers. It would be in the city centre but would also double up as one for the people of Sandy Row and Donegall Pass/Markets; the former of which would see their current shoebox branch closed

I know the Linen Hall is dead bang in the centre but as a private library it's never going to be too welcoming to non members. Ditto Queens- all that knowledge supposedly availiable yet you need a bloody card to get in. Unfortunately the Art College has gone down this route recently as well.

But the problem with this proposal is that the trend in BEELB is to close down a dozen libraries, not open a new one. But reading should be encouraged and there is also a limited amount of things in Belfast (if not all cities) that you can do for free.

2. The redevelopment of Jennymount mill. One of Belfast's architectural gems, but it's sadly hidden by a giant corrugated factory. You get the impression that the mill's tiny which is bizzarre because it must be the tallest victorian building in the city. Now I'm not a person who generally favours the demolition of buildings (I can't afford to as I love the stuff that most other people hate like Windsor House, Fanum House). But I wouldnt cry a tear over the low rise section of Thompsons feeds getting relocated across the M2 where it probably belongs. That would give a bit of space around Jennymount, and who knows the contrast between late 20th century factory and Victorian one facing each other across a flat space might be a good one.

Then you could create a sort of public square or park in the grounds surrounding the mill, and refurbish the buildings while you're at it. You could then make efforts to link the mill up with the city and sailortown better- replace Midland House. The presence of the M2, the railway yards and the car park wastelands of Yorkgate would limit the amount of improvement but you can always try.

It then could be a loose sort of gateway to the charming Alexandra Park, the Waterworks, the smart housing of the antrim road and the Cavehill. But of course these proposals are never going to work in Northern Ireland, where no residential area is allowed to be 'normal', only a sectarian ghetto. The York road will be an interface area for decades to come so there is little hope for Jennymount to be anything more ambitious than an old building with a tall chimney. But if areas like this were in a normal city they would more than likely be thinking about making the most of them.

No new money is ever going to go to a library, but I fully agree about Jennymount Mill. Knowing this place though, it's only a matter of time before it gets pulled down, (probably after a mysterious fire - see Lower North Street Arcade)

The single best thing that could happen here by far is for investment to be made in a rapid transit system, similar to that taking place in Dublin and throughout Europe. Yet again I see no evidence of our executive being smart enough to make this long term, vital investment. They didn't even have the sense to lay tram lines in the new Titanic Quarter. This shows a clear lack of imagination, ambition and belief in growth. These lines would have cost little, but acted as a powerful marker and indicator. A similar omission is currently underway on Royal Avenue. EU TEN-T EA funding is probably available for this, but how many of our useless political leaders even know what that is?

I could also see an enlightened government making the sort of tax incentives available that ensured the success of Temple Bar when it was first getting off the ground. A similar scheme here could create a vibrant inner city community. (which we used to have pre troubles) Belfast city centre is presently still a virtual ghost town at night.

A final simple call would be for some greenery on the dismal walls of the Westlink. If anyone has been to Los Angeles in particular, they will know what I am talking about re their Freeways (or just check Google Street view)

Upgrade and redevelop the Grove leisure Centre.

Knock down or refurbish building beside equity house at shaftsbury square

New screen at shaftsbury square as they have removed the old one.

also again..shaftsbury square related but the underground toilet block. its had a fence round it for years. turn it into some sort of underground restaurant or something...ideas?

renovate transport house...

side bar but what is happening with the old dance hall at the zoo?

^^ Carrying on from your Shaftbury Sq ideas:

1) Pedestrianise the square and add some greenery, an interesting sculpture, innovative lighting...
2) Demolish Ulsterbank, burnt out building, Ascot House, any other bland building/60's monsters.
4) Make it feel like a buzzing part of the city centre. A proper connection between Queens Quarter and Grt Victora st.
5) Do this by building highrise. Have maybe 3 highrises. An office tower, hotel and residential building, all with high-end shopping units beneath- special retail stores that would make it worth your while to walk there. All this should contribute to a good buzz.
6) New big screen. Perhaps more advertising on the buildings. I'm not talking Picadily circus, but something that says, this is a big, modern city.

Of course most of this will probably never happen, however, I will do a few more areas of the city later.

Airport developments: (In no particular order)

1) Close the city airport. It holds back development even in the city centre and creates airport competition rather than airline competition.
2) Create direct a motorway link from BFS to Belfast city centre. Re-open the abandoned rail line at the international airport and have it stopping at Grt Vic st/Central.
3) Build a domestic terminal at the international airport. This would create advantages for both national and international travellers.
4) Make the airport look important. The rail connection and motorway link would help, chuck in in multi-story carpark and mid-rise hotel. Tidy up the surrounding area. On the air side, add some more jet-ways. Interiors are already being dealt with in the real world anyway (as are some of the above mentioned things).
5) Extend the main runway.
6) Give Dublin a run for its money. Create some serious competition.

Yep, I've been in dreamland again :(

Airport developments: (In no particular order)
Yep, I've been in dreamland again :(

Not with everything you say.

Aldergrove is never going to be a thriving international airport because Dublin is so close. We need to think outside the box.....Rather than spending unrealistic amounts of money on Aldergrove I’d rather we spent money making Dublin a massive international hub competing with Heathrow, Schiphol or Charles de Gaulle etc.

If we improved the railway to Dublin passengers could be at Dublin airport in 30 minutes and have far more choice and better prices then they would ever have at Aldergrove.

Just my two cents.

^^

Seeing as all three of those airports have direct land based links to the wider European continent I don't see that idea as realistic either.

Dublin will NEVER compete with somewhere like Heathrow, which serves the world's most important financial centre or CDG serving the capital of the most visited country on the planet.

Well Dublin is in the top 20 busiest airports in Europe.

I don't see why it can't become a hub for International carriers who want European passengers to connect there before flying to America or Asia. Air India are looking to do this and a number of others too…

Yeah.....but you're living in a dream world if you think it's be able to compete on the same level as Heathrow or CDG.

Offcouse it can compete on the same level as Heathrow or Paris, maybe not by passenger numbers but it can definitely complete for the same market.

People don’t fly to London to visit London, they fly to London to connect to other places in World. If I want to fly to Sydney, Dubai, Toronto, Hong Kong etc I would have to connect in London. Dublin can easily go for the same market and become an international hub.

Though it doesn’t help when your flag carrier is in disarray. Aer Lingus should have been signing all sorts of deals with airlines to get passengers connecting in Dublin.

People don’t fly to London to visit London

Really??

You may want to tell that to the 15 million tourists that do such a thing every year and make it the 2nd most visited city for tourists in the world.

I haven't checked the figures for people there for business, though I imagine the figure is rather high as well.

When I'm flying to San Francisco or Seattle, do I visit London? No. I simply connect in London from Belfast.

Why can’t Dublin have people from all over Europe connecting in Dublin before flying to the states.

I didn't say that everyone that flew into London visited the city, I took issue with your view that people that fly there don't visit London, when 15 million clearly do and that doesn't take account of those in London for business either.

But there are 5 London airports. So the majority of the passengers going to Heathrow are not visiting London but rather connecting to somewhere else

Oh please.....Heathrow is BY FAR the number 1 gateway for tourists coming to London.


I advise you to stop digging Plank and just admit you worded your post incorrectly, then we can move on.

So there are 15 million visitors to London each year, divided by 5. SO what are the 63 million doing at Heathrow? Visiting the airport?

^^

So there are 15 million visitors to London each year, divided by 5. SO what are the 63 million doing at Heathrow? Visiting the airport?

You kidding me......divide by 5. If you're going to get on like a retard then that's your prerogative, but CLEARLY simply dividing by 5 will not give you how many arrive at Heathrow to visit London.

:lol:

Upgrade and redevelop the Grove leisure Centre.

also again..shaftsbury square related but the underground toilet block. its had a fence round it for years. turn it into some sort of underground restaurant or something...ideas?

side bar but what is happening with the old dance hall at the zoo?

The Grove has a new leisure centre a few yards up the road, not sure if it has diving boards or what will happen to the old one.

It was mentioned on this site before that there were once plans to turn it into a club though how feasible that would be given the size, who knows? As the only thing of it's kind in Belfast they could list it, why not reopen them as toilets. None of this 21st century bollocks where you have to buy a coffee to use the bogs- a coffee that will only make me want to go again in an hours time!

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs197.snc1/6660_104192269491_671494491_2291016_2041230_n.jpg

The Floral Hall dancehall is used as a storage space for animal feed, who's bright idea was that. Another part of the zoo that is poorly used is the old steps, which is an untidy mess with deer running around. Maybe they thought that people nowadays would be too lazy to climb up the steep stairs so they closed it off.

http://www.belfastzoo.co.uk/images/news/oldzootour.jpg

Offcouse it can compete on the same level as Heathrow or Paris, maybe not by passenger numbers but it can definitely complete for the same market.

People don’t fly to London to visit London, they fly to London to connect to other places in World. If I want to fly to Sydney, Dubai, Toronto, Hong Kong etc I would have to connect in London. Dublin can easily go for the same market and become an international hub.

Though it doesn’t help when your flag carrier is in disarray. Aer Lingus should have been signing all sorts of deals with airlines to get passengers connecting in Dublin.

But around 20 million people live within easy reach of Heathrow - why would these people want to add an extra leg to their journey by connecting in Dublin? Obviously I can see the advantages of Dublin being a hub - for the people on the island of Ireland (about 5 million - so sell that to the airlines!)

I would challenge the notion that the majority of passengers at Heathrow are transferring to another flight - perhaps the majority of passengers from NI are doing this but if people in England or France or Germany want to catch an international flight they have plenty of local options - they are not going to choose Dublin as their connection hub unless there are serious financial benefits (and that's highly unlikely to happen)

And to pick up on an earlier point - what does NI have to gain by re-routing the air travel business to Dublin?

Also, why does the idea of closing the City airport keep getting mooted? The airports are privately owned, therefore, any attempts to close it would likely be illegal restrictions of trade - why are we so hung up about having a huge airport anyway?

Capacity at Dublin will be up to 40 million passengers per year by the end of 2010. That's large excess capacity and the plan is for the airport to be an international hub. That is why so much development is taking place at the airport. It's not because they want it to look nice. :nuts:

Id much rather have a major international airport for this city that has serious ambitions making them a physical reality on the ground then two tiny privately owned airports with no ambition or strategy whatsoever other then being "acceptable". That's not to say Belfast has a "bad" airport but there seems to be a lack of vision.


Ultimately if serious investment is not made in one of Belfast's airports then the only option is to use Dublin as the principle gateway - and seen as it already is I don't see any issue with intentional dedicated transport links. Belfast benefits whilst not having to spend ludicrous amounts of money.

Same applies to all the other cities and towns in Ireland.

^^

I'm all for closing city down if they are actually responsible for the stopping of development in central Belfast.

OK,bit strong perhaps.

Capacity at Dublin will be up to 40 million passengers per year by the end of 2010. That's large excess capacity and the plan is for the airport to be an international hub. That is why so much development is taking place at the airport. It's not because they want it to look nice. :nuts:

Id much rather have a major international airport for this city that has serious ambitions making them a physical reality on the ground then two tiny privately owned airports with no ambition or strategy whatsoever other then being "acceptable". That's not to say Belfast has a "bad" airport but there seems to be a lack of vision.


Ultimately if serious investment is not made in one of Belfast's airports then the only option is to use Dublin as the principle gateway - and seen as it already is I don't see any issue with intentional dedicated transport links. Belfast benefits whilst not having to spend ludicrous amounts of money.

Same applies to all the other cities and towns in Ireland.

What is the ultimate proposed number of passengers at Dublin when (if) the other terminals/runway are built?

Air India is using Dublin as a stop off point to America as the aircraft needs to re-fuel. It currently uses Frankfurt, so a deal was struck at Dublin. I know that at Shannon US immigration control is carried out prior to the aircraft departing for the US. If this applies to Dublin then this would be another advantage. As for Dublin being a hub to compete aginst CDG or Heathrow forget it. Passenger numbers are very high at Dublin as the Irish travel alot and the only quick way off an island is to fly. There is also a good inbound tourist market. The destinations available from carriers like BA at Heathrow make it an excellent hub, especially to ex colonies. The same applies to CDG or madrid (ex spanish colonies in South America etc). Also these airports serve massive populations and are massive on the tourist fronts. Ryanair may start Transatlantic operations from Dublin which could attract alot of 'hub' traffic', however they will probably start the same services from every hole in the hedge anyway.

Capacity at Dublin will be up to 40 million passengers per year by the end of 2010. That's large excess capacity and the plan is for the airport to be an international hub. That is why so much development is taking place at the airport. It's not because they want it to look nice. :nuts:

Id much rather have a major international airport for this city that has serious ambitions making them a physical reality on the ground then two tiny privately owned airports with no ambition or strategy whatsoever other then being "acceptable". That's not to say Belfast has a "bad" airport but there seems to be a lack of vision.


Ultimately if serious investment is not made in one of Belfast's airports then the only option is to use Dublin as the principle gateway - and seen as it already is I don't see any issue with intentional dedicated transport links. Belfast benefits whilst not having to spend ludicrous amounts of money.

Same applies to all the other cities and towns in Ireland.

I'm still not quite grasping how Belfast (and NI) benefits from hemorrhaging money to Dublin via a transport link (other than the small change it would make on travel income after such a scheme eventually broke even)

The thing you need to remember is that there is a world of difference between North and South airports in terms of structure - Belfast airports are privately owned and, therefore, are expected by their stakeholders to make a profit - this makes massive investment unlikely.

DAA were created by statute and, consequently, they have less accountability in the commerical sense - this allows them to pump huge investment into their physical assets (and there is nothing wrong with this ownership structure either just in case you inferred that I was being negative)

As long as Northern Ireland is administered by the UK, Belfast airports will be classed as regional considerations and, as a result, they do not need to have a 'vision' beyond this. Nor does NI have the population to warrant massive expansion at any rate. Dublin is a capital city and attracts large numbers of tourists so it needs, and should, be bigger but for reasons mentioned above I would not expect it to become an international hub to rival Heathrow / Charles de Gaulle et al.

Build a high speed rail link to Dublin via the airport and you could have passengers at the airport almost as quick as it takes to get to Aldergrove…

People need to get it out of their heads that somehow Aldergrove should be some massive airport with motorway links, railways and countless daily international flights. No it shouldn’t, it’s a small European airport at best, domestic more like. Dublin is only 100 miles away…

The destinations available from carriers like BA at Heathrow make it an excellent hub, especially to ex colonies. The same applies to CDG or madrid (ex spanish colonies in South America etc). Also these airports serve massive populations and are massive on the tourist fronts. Ryanair may start Transatlantic operations from Dublin which could attract alot of 'hub' traffic', however they will probably start the same services from every hole in the hedge anyway.

Aer Lingus really should have done the same as BA have done at LHR, AF at CDG, KLM at AMS and turned Dublin into a hub. There are over 30 million Irish Americans in the USA. You could have had American passengers connecting in Dublin to destinations all over Europe.

Whereas as somebody flying to Heathrow on BA can seamlessly connect at LHR to the USA. You can’t do that at Dublin….

Aer Lingus really should have done the same as BA have done at LHR

Aer Lingus have tried or already running most of the viable routes from Dublin, there is only a certain market. Ryanair also operate most other markets.

There are over 30 million Irish Americans in the USA

And Aer Lingus provide daily flights to Boston New York and I think Chicago the centres of die hard Irish Americans.

could have had American passengers connecting in Dublin to destinations all over Europe.

If I lived in America and wanted to get to Frankfurt why would I want to sit at Dublin Airport for an hour when I can fly direct non-stop.

Build a high speed rail link to Dublin via the airport and you could have passengers at the airport almost as quick as it takes to get to Aldergrove…

People need to get it out of their heads that somehow Aldergrove should be some massive airport with motorway links, railways and countless daily international flights. No it shouldn’t, it’s a small European airport at best, domestic more like. Dublin is only 100 miles away…

It doesn't matter how small it is. Because of it's isolation from/importance to the actual city, it should be a necessity to have a motorway/rail link, or at least one of them no matter what country the airport it in!

plank007

You seem to be trying to force your fairy tale united ireland theme onto transport infrastructure schemes. Dublin Airport only 100 miles away!!!! thats like suggesting Birmingham airport to be closed and brummies to use London as it's 'only' 100 miles away. Belfast to Aldergove 20minutes Belfast to Dublin 1 hour 20 mins.

And Aer Lingus provide daily flights to Boston New York and I think Chicago the centres of die hard Irish Americans.

But can any of them connect seamlessly onto Aer Lingus’ European route network. No

If I lived in America and wanted to get to Frankfurt why would I want to sit at Dublin Airport for an hour when I can fly direct non-stop.

Price. I know loads of people who would sit in Toronto or New York for hours waiting on a connecting flight simply to save a few quid.

You seem to be trying to force your fairy tale united ireland theme onto transport infrastructure schemes. .

It makes sense to integrate our transportation and you know it. The Irish government want to but hicks like you are holding us back.

It makes sense to integrate our transportation

What economic sense would it make for the people of Northern Ireland?

imo, transportation needs to be de-centralised. Ulsterbus, NIRail, Metro and Enterprise should all have competition introduced. This way, quaility of service would go up, and fares would go down in a bid to be no.1 public transportation service.

Was in Belfast over the Easter break with a couple of friends on hols from Sweden.
Really think the council has its priorities right in terms of re-paving the streets with the streets-ahead programme.
The difference simple things like good paving can make to a city is immense. I'd go as far as to say that good quality pavements, strict requirements for business owners on shop-fronts and well placed trees are the most important factors in creating an attractive city. Yet, it's the area cities in the UK, Ireland and the U.S fall back on most when compared to cities in continental Europe.

Anyway, I know it's planned in the greater scheme of things, but the pedestrianisation of Donegall Place and Donegall Square, as soon as possible, would make a world of difference to Belfast.

By the way, what's the general problem with the City Airport??? Does it not make sense to have an airport right on the doorstep of the city centre?
Also, I'd imagine Dublin Airport are thinking more in the lines of Schiphol than Heathrow or CDG.

P.S: Great idea for a thread!

imo, transportation needs to be de-centralised. Ulsterbus, NIRail, Metro and Enterprise should all have competition introduced. This way, quaility of service would go up, and fares would go down in a bid to be no.1 public transportation service.

You can't artificially introduce competition - if you think you have a viable profitable route then feel free to start a bus run - public transport is heavily subsidised so you won't find too many businessmen rushing to start a bus company - that said, I'm sure there are lots of profitable stand alone routes in the Belfast area that could be tapped if it was both done properly and had enough to differeniate from the current provision.

YearZero - I'm still waiting for an answer to that question myself. Get in line :lol:

Re Dublin airport debate. Aldergrove is a crumbling third world style tip, and for trips to places like Berlin, or Boston or (just add to list) is totally useless. I see empty buses making their way there every week from the Europa bus station as full ones from two competing bus companies arrive from Dublin. It's a no brainer and never has been.

People vote with their feet, and the results are clear. Hands up all those who would invest their life savings or pension funds in Aldergrove, and hands up all those who would choose Dubin? I know where my money would go.

I recently went to Berlin. Guess which airport I HAD to use? I regularly go to Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Prague, and Amsterdam. Only an idiot would use Belfast to make any of these journeys. Who needs the agro of changing planes in a nightmare airport like Heathrow, with two lots of the extra security, when they can get on a bus to Dublin simply and fly direct?

I see empty buses making their way there every week from the Europa bus station as full ones from two competing bus companies arrive from Dublin

Firstly 1 million per annum are estimated to use Dublin airport who live in Northern Ireland. It is an obvious real option.
Now on the bus thing when I or anybody I know fly from Dublin they use the bus. You get a lift into Belfast and get on the bus its so cheap and avoids the car parking at Dublin Airport. I think the bus to Dublin is nearly the same price as to Aldergrove. Nobody I know uses the bus when flying from Aldergrove, even people who live in Belfast. We use cars, very handy, the best form of transport. You get into the car outside your door and park it outside the terminal its easy, why would anybody use the bus. Car parking at Belfast airport aint exactly expensive.

Privatisation of buses in Britain has (to the best of my knowledge) always resulted in a worse quality service. We live in a time where motorised transport is dominated by private car use, buses trains & trams are a sloppy second in terms of passenger numbers. Because cars make up the majority of journeys it's hard to make bus routes profitable, and it is nigh impossible to make train lines break even. This is why public transport is subsidised (though don't forget road building is generously subsidised too).

I can imagine a scenario where Translink's Belfast operations were privatised. Only the very profitable bus routes would be bought up by private companies- all else would be cancelled. You might end up with only 10 or so routes in place of todays' 50+. Frequency on those 10 routes may increase but loads of potential passengers are going to buy cars immediately- why would you rely on a public transport system that only covers a minority of your city? In that climate you'd fear they would cancel your bus route the next day anyway. We can see this principle played out in every town of northern Ireland apart from Belfast. Bangor may have a train every half hour but the vast majority of residents use cars as there is no real public transport within a 7 mile radius of the rail station.

Using high returns on the profitable routes to subsidise the less popular routes increases the viability of the system as a whole. The problem is private bus companies don't have the common sense or wallet to realise this, and hence their only customers are pensioners, children and the poor. You're never going to convince cautious shareholders to fork up loads of money to expand the company (thereby attracting more customers), so the public tansport network remains as bad as an American one. Piss poor Ulsterbus fits this mould- there is government assistance but no desire to shake things up like Translink were forced to do when they started Metro, and so will never have a large increase in ridership. It's a vicious cycle.

Another problem with privatisation is that historically private operators have not been able to cooperate in the interests of customers. London was held back for years by the train companies that refused to take up the Oyster card. Now they have you'd think things have markedly improved. And yet the tickets to a private train station cost way more than the tube and are only a fraction of the frequency.

I don't see how 'competition' in public transport can benefit customers. Train companies in England usually have a monopoly on their routes so there is no possible competition as the services they offer are completely different. Again how can the profit motive improve things for us when there is little profit to be made- you end up in the realm of never-never land nonsense like Major did with rail privatisation and Blair did with PFI funding.

I don't think Translink are all that bad anyway, I'm sure they are more effective than many similar operations in Britain. Their main fuck up as I can see it was their smart card debacle and their train & bus networks that integrate poorly. But their monopoly over public transport is the key to their success, it makes great sense in a tiny and lowly populated country like here.

Hi Mr Citybus,

I have a picture of an old mill in Belfast which I will scan in soon - John Lanyon's Tower Buildings, Ormeau Avenue, right adjacent to the Ormeau Baths. This is the first time I have seen this building and my heart sank through the floor. You guy's can go on about how wonderful the new Ulster Bank is Donegall Square West, or how majestic the Obel is but this building demolished in the 70's has to be one of the most beautiful buildings ever built on this island. If still around today it would have been a 20**** hotel make the Merchant look like a public toilet. I have to say that since reading about it and seeing it in an aerial photograph, I have wondered what it looked like. I searched for months and have finally found a street view. It was amazing I only hope my scanner does it justice. It looks actually more like a parliament building than a mill. Have you or anyone else ever seen a photograph of it.

Who needs the agro of changing planes in a nightmare airport like Heathrow, with two lots of the extra security, when they can get on a bus to Dublin simply and fly direct?

Dublin airport is a bit of a nightmare airport at present, probably when all this construction works finish it should improve.

If there is a choice of flying to your desination either from an overcrowded stressfull airport with queues everywhere u go from eating, drinking, keeping your kids safe, sitting on a bus from terminal to car-parking for 20 mins, and include another 2 hours to travel down at stupid hours of the day, being bused to your plane taking ages or alternatively flying from a small compact well laid out and with a more relaxing feel airport with everyting close by then there is no comparison -

Dublin has more desinations to travel too which will always make it this nightmare busy place. The majority of people from the North or from West Ireland and South of Dublin use Dublin Airport because they have to.


recently went to Berlin. Guess which airport I HAD to use? I regularly go to Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Prague, and Amsterdam. Only an idiot would use Belfast to make any of these journeys.

OK flight departure times might come into which is the best airport to fly from, however I think common sense here would be that the idiot would be the person who travels to Dublin or London to fly to say Prague when you can fly from Belfast International airport 20mins away from city centre.

Belfast City Airport also has many advantages - How many airports in the world can you arrive/walk out of the terminal and be in the city centre in less than 10 minutes.

Belfast City Airport also has many advantages - How many airports in the world can you arrive/walk out of the terminal and be in the city centre in less than 10 minutes.

And also no tall buildings over 20m in East Belfast, no new housing permitted for around a mile under the flight path, (Oval redevelopment to housing not permitted) noise pollution to schools and houses under the flight path. Height restriction on the whole of the city centre. More traffic and increasing on the M3 bridge, potential for major casaulities if a plane comes down in a built up area-yes that 10mins saved is worth it!!!.

potential for major casaulities if a plane comes down in a built up area-yes that 10mins saved is worth it!!!.

^^ Logic fail.

Logic fail.

Explain old chap

I've never heard of it, there are probably plenty of excellent mills that were knocked down. There really should be a book of photos & drawings of these sort of buildings. If there's a market for books about small villages or trains that were shut down 60 years ago then there should be for the mills. If you are looking for other photos of the Ormeau Avenue site then you could do worse than ask people here:
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php

I saw the Doagh mill last week. I was surprised by how small it is but it's a still a very smart building. It looks like it's a few months off being ready for apartments. My only regret was that they could have made the surrounding houses with more taste though it's a minor quibble.

And also no tall buildings over 20m in East Belfast, no new housing permitted for around a mile under the flight path, (Oval redevelopment to housing not permitted) noise pollution to schools and houses under the flight path.

There are some buildings over 20m close to flight path but they might have preceded the airport. I didn't know about the Oval not being allowed for housing, the stadium is currently much higher than any houses that would replace it. It's a fun ground what with it giving a good view of a motorway, trainline, and very low flying planes. I would think the planning people might object to building more homes in an area that sees a lot of car traffic currently. Though as it's been regenerated I'm sure the population has falled massively. What else could the Oval site be used for?

Explain old chap

Just about every airport approach is above huge populated areas. Ever landed on 27L/27R at Heathrow……or worse LCY, that aint for the faint hearted in an A318...

Fact is there is more chance of Al Qaeda blowing up half of East Belfast than a FR or BD coming down on takeoff or approach..

I saw the Doagh mill last week. I was surprised by how small it is

Yeh but they demolished most of it, the chimney went in early 90's. If you zoom in to Google earth you will see how big it was. There use to be a 5 storey block. The one you see today is the barn roof one behind the main block (google earth)

the stadium is currently much higher than any houses that would replace it

Yeh but there are new rules about new housing near final approaches, doesn't matter how tall they are, they aint allowed

Just about every airport approach is above huge populated areas. Ever landed on 27L/27R at Heathrow

And it is risky, in actual fact there are sensible options to close Heathrow and build a new facility in the Thames estuary. This was done in Berlin and Hong Kong. Its just a matter of time before Heathrow is closed. Airports should not be in built up areas. Who wants to live beside an airport.

What is the ultimate proposed number of passengers at Dublin when (if) the other terminals/runway are built?

The 3rd terminal for the Western side will bring it to about 60 million or a bit below. But this will likely be a fully private terminal competing with the other terminals. Be 10 years at least before that is done IMO.

Hi Mr Citybus,

If you were in the Doagh area did you not see the Cogry mill complex - it is quite something, its about 1 mile north east of Doagh mill. Find it at

54°45'18.56"N

6° 2'44.20"W

on Google earth

Hi Mr Citybus,

If you were in the Doagh area did you not see the Cogry mill complex - it is quite something, its about 1 mile north east of Doagh mill. Find it at

54°45'18.56"N

6° 2'44.20"W

on Google earth

Ah right, that's larger than the one I saw in Doagh itself- which is this one
http://www.simpsondevelopments.co.uk/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=13&Itemid=53

54°44'33.07"N

6° 2'42.46"W

Are the co-ordinates for that building in the Simpson brouchore which is all that is remaining of Doagh Spinning Mill. The image on Google earth for this complex is several years old before Simpsons demolished the 5 storey complex and all the other buildings, including Doagh Factory Shop.

There are some buildings over 20m close to flight path but they might have preceded the airport. I didn't know about the Oval not being allowed for housing, the stadium is currently much higher than any houses that would replace it. It's a fun ground what with it giving a good view of a motorway, trainline, and very low flying planes. I would think the planning people might object to building more homes in an area that sees a lot of car traffic currently. Though as it's been regenerated I'm sure the population has falled massively. What else could the Oval site be used for?

a dump or a carpark

A real park close to the city centre would be nice. Not sure what location would be suitable apart from converting some small carparks, but in within 10 years or so maybe some of the low density areas could be cleared for it.. preferably on the west side of Lagan.

Speaking from experience, I saw no difference in sitting having a cuppa in the smart hi-tec wonderful Dublin airport than I did sitting having a cuppa in the antiquated, dusty minging Aldergrove..... Oh except Aldergrove was quicker to get to, cheaper to park at and I was processed a lot faster due to less crowds. I still flew to the same American airport as well :)

As for the city airport, it's location alone is ENVIED throughout the world.

Envied? By whom.... most people will not have even heard of it. As for comparing Dublin Airport to Belfast.... try flying from Aldergrove to Boston, or San Francisco, or Berlin, or Rome, or.... (long list follows). Not only is it a tip, but it has very few regular international flights. In fact does it actually have any? It's a dump, that should have been ploughed up and used for potatoes, or grazing cows years ago.

The future is this: Local flights - Belfast Harbour. International flights - Dublin.

Investing public money in Aldergrove re roads/trains etc, is money down the drain. There is simply no way to compete with the magnitude of Dublin airport now, so why bother?

The park is a good idea but it would be hard to find a place to shoehorn it into. One of the bigger and less used car parks would be the winetavern street area. A basic idea would be to pedestrianise winetavern and keep the good vibrations terrace of shops, chop off the toilets and one or two units of Smithfield market, demolish William Hill, cannabilise all of the eastern car park, the smithfield car park, and the car parks north of Samuel Street. You'd be left with a space to create a park about half the size of stephen's green

Any shops displaced could be moved into derelict units in North Street, Gresham Street or a Roal Exchange regeneration. If you were really ambitious you could move smithfield market to somewhere else entirely, though I'd worry that the Belfast powers that be (and market forces) would seek a replacement of any small independent shops with large chain stores and in effect kill them off completely. And if you want to enter pigs might fly territory, you could reduce the size of castle court and put their lorries into tunnels and put an end to this fencing off Bank Square bollocks.

Envied? By whom.... most people will not have even heard of it.

erm... envied by air travel experts throughout the world? Now were you being really silly by thinking I meant some pygmy in darkest Amazonia or something...?

Ask me how I know it's envied, go on.........

^^

Ignore snail.



As for the park.......takes 10 mins to walk from city hall to Botanic Gardens, about the same to get to Ormeau Park and about 15/20 to the Waterworks. Much faster if you get a bus.

While a nice city park would be fantastic I don't see the need for one right in the centre of the city. I'd rather promote plazas, courtyards and such.

^^

Ignore snail.



I usually do :D

As for a park, we have plenty of parks in Belfast. What we need is more greenery and open areas in the city centre. Not massive areas, just a place with a few trees/bushes and benches to eat your lunch.

^^

Yeah exactly! :)

True!

...

I've got an idea for a long cycle route in South West Belfast. Lambeg to Europa.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr65/citybusrenegade/BikePaths3.jpg

-It'll form a cycling corridor linking the Falls & Dunmurry to the City Centre, like the Greenway does for East Belfast only it goes all the way to BT1.

-Improve West Belfast's access to the train line, the Upper Lisburn Road and the Lagan.

The Green lines are entirely off road paths, the blue is on road sections typically in quiet residential streets. Yellow is quality European style cycle lanes on pavements, with no dodgy kerbs to navigate around. Red is the Lagan path and the ones dashed with black are feeder routes.

Some of the blue bits could be upgraded to yellow if the budget allows it.

While some of the green paths already exist they will probably need widening. Nevertheless it wouldnt be all that expensive, the priciest infrastructure would be a new bridge and subway. The proximity to the railway is an asset that the (admittedly more scenic) lagan path doesn't have to the same extent.

I like the look of that. At least some people around here are trying to be optimistic and solve problems... :)

You're right about access to the railway line, as far as I'm concerned it's a goldmine in that part of the city and needs more accessability and useage, and cyclists are part of this need.

Thread closed for 10 years! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10375236.stm)

The thing is the government or sustrans have done the same thing I've done, they've looked around town and seen that it was possible to create a new cycle route, they chose the M2 to Whiteabbey. But the lane goes through boring industrial estates and a coastal path that has a fence blocking off the sea view most of the time. Of course the route's useful but it's hardly an obvious choice to spend your money on. The west belfast one makes a lot more sense.

Over in the east they have the connswater community greenway project.

http://www.communitygreenway.co.uk/images/stories/concept.png

It hasnt started yet but the plans are very ambitious and unusually for belfast it seems like they are actually doing everything you could possibly want from the scheme. My west belfast route is similar in that it isn't just an isolated corridor, it has lots of little paths that lead onto it. And why not, most of them would be dirt cheap to implement.

^^

I really like the look of that- particularly the extension up the Cregagh Road and Cregagh Glen. Would definitely be getting the bike out to use that, as presently cycling in to town from the Four Winds is hairy stuff!

Thread closed for 10 years! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10375236.stm)

To then be re-opened early in Autumn once the NI corporation tax plan and economy rebalancing measures are published in a white paper. :smug:

I dont reckon Cregagh Glen will be converted to bike use as it's pretty steep. You could always try going up the hill and down glencregagh road, over the knockbreda high pedestrian bridge, rosetta, etc. Ravenhill road has cycle paths for a lot of it. Not the most direct way to town but theyre probably all safe roads and at least you'd avoid all the nonsense at Forestside.

The section from the Sydenham bypass looks like it's in the same place as part of the proposed third phase of the inner ring road, so it would be nice if they could incorporate a cycle path in with all the work :)

That section is already bike friendly albeit only on the east bank of the river. That proposed road is called Connsbank Link and hasnt got a set date so it'll come a few years after the Sydenham bypass renovations. I wouldnt shed a tear if it didnt go ahead at all as it will hamper any efforts to improve the river path here, and may bring more traffic to the area.

^^

Ignore snail.



As for the park.......takes 10 mins to walk from city hall to Botanic Gardens, about the same to get to Ormeau Park and about 15/20 to the Waterworks. Much faster if you get a bus.

While a nice city park would be fantastic I don't see the need for one right in the centre of the city. I'd rather promote plazas, courtyards and such.
It's just over a mile away from the city hall, which takes 20 mins given a normal human walking speed in a city. So it's 40 minutes of walking until you are back where you came from. Buses may take even longer including the wait.. personally the last time I took a bus in Belfast was 6 months ago. May be ok if you have a lot of time to spend but I think most people would settle for the lawn at city hall or go to the waterfront cyclepath instead, or stay inside. I miss having a relaxed outdoor place to go to on the lunchbreaks but maybe it's just me.

Takes me no where near 20 minutes to walk up to Queens. The bus speeds depends entirely on traffic, most of the day it takes a few minutes on the bus.

It's not practical if you want somewhere quick for lunch, but then most cities don't have parks close to the office workers, it's not a sensible use of urban space in those particular areas.

You didn't state it had to be within 'lunch-time' distance. We do however have a few parks, large ones at that, relatively close to the city centre.

I think most people would settle for the lawn at city hall

Which is maybe going.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=18302452&highlight=dome#post18302452

BCC just spent millions completely updating the City Hall to suit purpose as a council HQ.

That's a long long way off. I would like to see DSW and DSE closed and re-landscaped though.

belfastuniguy: Perhaps if you are a fast, determined walker, but most people will need at least 20 minutes to walk more than a mile in an urban setting. And buses will still take a longer time including the wait, and why would you have to take a bus ride to reach a city park anyway?

No I didn't state it was about lunchtime breaks, that's true, but it would be nice to just always have a park nearby. And they are there in most European cities.

Botanic Gardens is a lot more than 10 minutes walk from city hall, most people would take more than 20. I'm a brisk walker and I can just about manage in under 20 minutes.

There are dozens of car parks in city centre that would be ideal size and location for a park.

There are dozens of car parks in city centre that would be ideal size and location for a park.

Yes! and they look sooo tacky, for example there are far too many spaces and gaps in great victoria street! They need nice urban parks or nice buildings to fill them in...i.e the aurora, still cant get over that!

Yes! and they look sooo tacky, for example there are far too many spaces and gaps in great victoria street! They need nice urban parks or nice buildings to fill them in...i.e the aurora, still cant get over that!

Great Vic street would be the perfect location. ALso, the car park that sits between Victoria Square apartments and Avoca/Cafe Vaudeville is a criminal waste of space, some greenery there would be great.

Great Vic street would be the perfect location. ALso, the car park that sits between Victoria Square apartments and Avoca/Cafe Vaudeville is a criminal waste of space, some greenery there would be great.

Has planning permission not been granted for a retail/office complex to be built on that site?

Cafe Vaudeville looks amazing i think, it adds class to that area. Even just, as thevanishin said, a little green area just for people to sit and unwind would do the world of good!

The real crime is that all the big car parks are half empty, they're ripe for redevelopment into something nicer.

Has planning permission not been granted for a retail/office complex to be built on that site?


I think it has been granted but work hasn't started. Though I can't remember seeing an application......so I'm not sure. The area is earmarked for a development though.

I think people are not seeing the practicalities of having large parks in a city centre. Parks don't just appear overnight.

I'd rather we be creative in the city centre and focus investment on urban courtyards, plazas, and 'urban parks' that showcase creative hard landscaping as well as plenty of greenery.

Well, I never asked for a large park, that might not be good for the urban setting. Small but green (no empty lawns) parks, that's exactly what I want more of. As suggested , converting one of the often empty car parks would be a great use of the space.

Unfortunately it doesn't make sense to have a park on prime high value city centre land.

Unfortunately it doesn't make sense to have a park on prime high value city centre land.

That's true to an extent. Then again, many of the sites I'm thinking of have been vacant for over a decade, some of them probably much longer than that. In the current climate, where there is limited opportunity for development (particularly in a city like Belfast where there is a vast amount of vacant space) it makes sense to do something with dead space.

Now that I think of it, every city I've visited has had huge urban spaces set aside for park land.

I also read a lot on urban design, sustainable development etc; everyone in that field of expertise agrees that green space in cities = happier and healthier residents.

Does a car park make sence?

That's true to an extent. Then again, many of the sites I'm thinking of have been vacant for over a decade, some of them probably much longer than that. In the current climate, where there is limited opportunity for development (particularly in a city like Belfast where there is a vast amount of vacant space) it makes sense to do something with dead space.

Now that I think of it, every city I've visited has had huge urban spaces set aside for park land.

I also read a lot on urban design, sustainable development etc; everyone in that field of expertise agrees that green space in cities = happier and healthier residents.



I agree, however it's rather more difficult to destroy a park on a vacant site when a developer has a renewed interest in the site than it is to built on a car park or vacant lot.

There are several areas that could benefit from some urban park space with raised beds, trees and the like. Just takes some creativity on the part of both developers and planners.

I don't think we'll ever see more "parks" in the city centre, but I think there should be more proper "open spaces".

In the case mentioned above, I don't think that carpark would be too good made into an open space, I don't like the way it has a big brick gable wall to one side, it will always look like an unnatural gap in the streetscape.

Instead we could look at more places to have proper plazas, like the space where Kelly's Cellars is behind the world's most ornamental Tesco :)

I don't think we'll ever see more "parks" in the city centre, but I think there should be more proper "open spaces".

In the case mentioned above, I don't think that carpark would be too good made into an open space, I don't like the way it has a big brick gable wall to one side, it will always look like an unnatural gap in the streetscape.

Instead we could look at more places to have proper plazas, like the space where Kelly's Cellars is behind the world's most ornamental Tesco :)

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished result in Bank square, Kelly's Cellars will be a great place to have a pint on a sunny day once the area is improved. There is a gable wall in Bank Square similar to the one we mentioned earlier, and I think it is to be turned into a 'vertical garden' or something like that. At least I'm nearly certain I saw it mentioned in the publicity material for Bank Square...can anyone confirm or deny this?

I'm looking forward to seeing the finished result in Bank square, Kelly's Cellars will be a great place to have a pint on a sunny day once the area is improved. There is a gable wall in Bank Square similar to the one we mentioned earlier, and I think it is to be turned into a 'vertical garden' or something like that. At least I'm nearly certain I saw it mentioned in the publicity material for Bank Square...can anyone confirm or deny this?

Yeah I agree, but at least it won't just look like a missing building, like the example on Chichester St mentioned above :)

Does a car park make sence?

In a word, yup.

As long as people won't use public transport and choose to drive into the city centre, there'll be a need for parking spaces... :/

In a word, yup.

As long as people won't use public transport and choose to drive into the city centre, there'll be a need for parking spaces... :/

Of topic a bit but public transport sickens me sometimes. Was on a Metro bus today and this fairly frail gentleman was attempting to get to a seat after struggling on and of course the driver roars off, then slams on the brakes, then does that thing bus drivers do where he inches forward in traffic so the bus is all over the place. Couple of us had to help the man to a seat and one of the other passengers was giving shit to the driver, whos response was 'I only drive the bus mate'.

Of topic a bit but public transport sickens me sometimes. Was on a Metro bus today and this fairly frail gentleman was attempting to get to a seat after struggling on and of course the driver roars off, then slams on the brakes, then does that thing bus drivers do where he inches forward in traffic so the bus is all over the place. Couple of us had to help the man to a seat and one of the other passengers was giving shit to the driver, whos response was 'I only drive the bus mate'.

That's one of the arguments for a tram system, where driving technique is much more uniform :(

I can empathise....

Transport is the key for any city, especially one such as Belfast where there is such a limited inner city population.

I live (as the name suggests) in Carrickfergus so my priority is road improvement. The dualling of the A2 between Jordanstown and Greenisland would make my trips to Belfast so much easier!

But on a more environmentally sensitive note, the improvement of the rail infrastructure needs to continue. On the Larne Line, the provision of extra halts at the Grove, Mount Vernon, Whitewell, Whitehouse would all assist an urban system, perhaps on a parallel, light railway track to the existing Irish Standard Gauge tracks. On the Bangor and Portadown lines there are currently halts at Bridge End and Sydenham to the east and Adelaide and Balmoral to the south and within the city boundary but nothing to the north between Yorkgate and Whiteabbey.

Trams in Belfast are a no-go, the metro system is a success compared to the previous Citybus and the only viable routes are in East Belfast, through the Shipyard or up the old Comber railway line. Bus routes seem more economical.