Here in Belgium, we have all kinds of styles where we build our homes in. In Belgium evereyone can build the house that he wants the way he wants it.
In this thread I'll show you the main styles of houses in my country.

Pastorie style

http://www.villanova.be/Pastorie%2011.jpg
http://www.qubo.be/cms/grafisch/referenties/referentie_82.jpg
http://www.coda-architecten.be/images/coda/Stijlen_bestanden/image005.jpg
http://www.vandemeulebroeke.be/images-opt/pastorijstijl-woning.jpg
http://www.laatjebouwen.com/upload/images/bedrijven/sod/villas-l-heylen-1.jpg

Spanish style

http://www.degeyter-bouw.be/Foto/zuiders_foto1.jpg
http://users.telenet.be/architectCorten/Overzicht/Stijlen_bestanden/image018.jpg

Fermette Style

http://blobs.shoppay.be/layout/398-Fermette2verkl.jpg
http://www.productbuilder.be/data/immomarc/13578.jpg
http://www.woningbouw-vercruysse.be/fermet2.jpg
http://www.web-tools.be/module/boxen/upload/boxen21.jpg

Modern Style

http://www.qubo.be/cms/grafisch/referenties/referentie_120.jpg
http://www.dfmoffice.be/img/projects/moderne_woningen/project_2/meyvaert01_b.jpg
http://www.vd-brink.nl/bouwbedrijf/foto_s/bon1.jpg
http://www.groeneplan.be/slide650.jpg
http://www.bmv.nl/Data/Images/hees3.jpg
http://www.bouwsite.be/content/bouwbeurs/beurs-bouwen/woningbouw-renovatie/architect-Gruwez/huis-moderne-stijl.jpg
http://www.vab-rijssen.nl/images1/afbeeldingen/architect-rijssen-overijssel-27112.jpg
http://www.mijnhuismijnarchitect.com/images/projecten/projecten2007/foto/366211/366211_A.jpg

I found 9 out of then of them very ugly. If this was to be all in one city, i would call it "the America of Belgium". Many (fake) historical building, in a wrong way. Do these people who supposedly build their own house, have any taste?

What a waste of space!! Are Detached houses really so cheap in belgium or do you just show us houses from the richer people? Can you also show us pictures from whole neighbourhoods?

I actually like a couple of them, Pastorie and Fermette being the two types I like.

WOW! Honestly, Belgium is a relief after viewing the "Suburbs in the Netherlands" thread! :lol:

Beside "the Ardennes" (hills and woods) in the south that covers 40% of the whole territory, it's a flat and very dense country where cities are very close.
95% of the 11 million Belgians live on 60% of the land.
City borders are very difficult to definite and are surrounded by a kind of urbanised countryside with many little towns that are connected with eachother and flows from city to city.
Almost 2/3 of Belgians live in that urbanised countryside between major cities like Antwerp, Brussels, Ghent, Liege,... where you could build until a few years ago almost every where you wanted to. There was a totally absence of urban planning!
Big cities are not very popular and as soon as they can, ppl. leave it for that urbanised countryside where there will find more green and space and think they will be safer.
So , even if its a dense country most Belgians live in pretty spacy houses on a large peace of land if you compare it in average to the Dutch or the British.
With a shortcut, you can say that in Belgium the most wealthy ppl live in the "countryside" and the poor more in the city centers.

I found 9 out of then of them very ugly. If this was to be all in one city, i would call it "the America of Belgium". Many (fake) historical building, in a wrong way. Do these people who supposedly build their own house, have any taste?


lol, what a delusional European you are.

If you like it to throw the whole landscape full of houses like this, you be my gast, but I don´t like it.
It´s bad for the development of nature, Belgium is bigpopulated, so they should better be provident with the space in their country.
Some friends of mine are moved from Holland to Belgium because it´s cheaper to live in a detached house. Some houses look nice there, but almost all the houses there are poorly maintained and windows are closed with shutters. Also a lot of the streets are bad maintained.
I think the expression of my neighourhood is much more important then the exterior of my own house, but some people seem to think different about this.

Belgium is the exact opposite of the Netherlands. The Netherlands has strictly controlled suburbanization, with few possibilities of creating something entirely on your own. Even detached housing is very limited. Belgium is an example of uncontrolled urban sprawl, with a lot of freedom to what you can build.

I like something in between. Unlike Belgium and Germany, housing in NL is quite expensive and even unaffordable in some areas. Even in the cheaper border areas of the Netherlands, housing in Belgium and Germany is still significantly cheaper. Belgium is a favorite country to relocate for the Dutch, there is no language barrier and it's close to several larger cities, so you can commute from Belgium to Breda, Tilburg, Eindhoven or even Maastricht without having to sit in a car for more than an hour.

WOW! Honestly, Belgium is a relief after viewing the "Suburbs in the Netherlands" thread! :lol:

The Netherlands and Belgium are two extremes really. The Netherlands is sometimes known as "The North Korea of architecture", because it is incredibly conformist in terms of architecture (it's nearly impossible to build anything that is not Modernist. A pity, if you ask me). Belgium on the other end, is a case of "anything goes" really. The fun thing is, when you cross the border between the Netherlands and Belgium, you instantly find yourself in a completely different world!

The Netherlands and Belgium are two extremes really. The Netherlands is sometimes known as "The North Korea of architecture", because it is incredibly conformist in terms of architecture (it's nearly impossible to build anything that is not Modernist. A pity, if you ask me). Belgium on the other end, is a case of "anything goes" really. The fun thing is, when you cross the border between the Netherlands and Belgium, you instantly find yourself in a completely different world!

I definitely agree with you, and I think there must be something deeper than building regulations to explain this.
Netherlands looks orderly and well planned as much as Belgium looks chaotic and unruly (not that it's necessarily bad in all respects, it adds charm to the place in some way or another).
I surely feel more at home in Brussels than in Amsterdam. :D

but almost all the houses there are poorly maintained

This is rubbish and you know it.

These are not pictures of suburbs or family houses but these are villa's. The difference is that in the Netherlands people with a normal income or low income can still live in an nice neighborhood with play areas and parks. If you are mid or low income in belgium you won't be able to do that.

^^ so where do middle income belgians live? In slums with no play areas? Belgium has always seemed quite nice overall whenever I've been there :dunno:

The Netherlands is definitely more neat and orderly though, it is odd how two small neighbouring countries which are in many ways very similar and integrated with each other can have such different attitudes to planning/housing.

Here in the UK I guess we are a combination of the two, the chaos and lack of modern taste in Belgium added to the cost and lack of individuality of the Netherlands :laugh:


Actually it is not that bad but we could certainly improve our planning process, housing policy and public attitudes imo.

These are not pictures of suburbs or family houses but these are villa's.

These houses are considered to be very regular in Belgium. And they can also be found in suburbs.

The difference is that in the Netherlands people with a normal income or low income can still live in an nice neighborhood with play areas and parks. If you are mid or low income in belgium you won't be able to do that.

Absolutely not true. People with a normal income in Belgium can also live in nice neighbourhoods, in houses you see above.

In general Belgians live in much bigger houses than the Dutch. But the urban planning in Holland is better, that's true...

With a shortcut, you can say that in Belgium the most wealthy ppl live in the "countryside" and the poor more in the city centers.

You can say the same about the UK too.

Obviously you can find some wealthy people in all cities, especially London but you will find that many London workers with well paid jobs prefer to live in the towns and villages of the surrounding 'home counties' such as surrey, buckinghamshire, hertfordshire etc.

Other analogous areas exist for the other big cities, warwickshire/worcestershire for Birmingham, the cotswolds/somerset for bristol, cheshire for Manchester and Liverpool, north and east yorkshire for Leeds and Sheffield.

Planning restrictions on green belt land surrounding cities has meant that people seeking more space, less crime, better schools etc have 'jumped over' that green belt into the surrounding small towns and villages which now often have more in common with suburbs than their rural origins.

http://i28.tinypic.com/6tlrbn.jpg
http://shavelieva.com/images/Pictures/cars/MaybeThisIsTheBiggestLogoOfFirefoxInthisWorld.png

These are not pictures of suburbs or family houses but these are villa's.

I don't know where you're from, reading your post i think the Netherlands. But these aren't villa's. Okay, there may be two or three large houses(villa's) but all the rest are regular Belgian houses from the suburbs and villages.
The villa's in Belgium look like these houses but are in general (slightly) bigger and most important have a much larger building area/garden. The most villa's you can find in villa districts. The best known are Brasschaat, north of Antwerp and against the border with The Netherlands.

so where do middle income belgians live? In slums with no play areas?
Middle income Belgians on the countryside and the suburbs also live in these kinds of houses. The size of the houses depends on how large there income is. How much money they have to invest in building or bying there house.

Middle income belgians in the cities live in regular terraced houses or appartment thou that’s mor rare than in the Netherlands.

For example:
http://www.2747.com/2747/world/antwerpen/antwerpen/plantinenmoretuslei/brialmontlei.jpg
http://ultiemewoning.com/images/Huiste_koop_Antwerpen1224.jpg

Unfortunately some (Dutch) forumers immediately turn this thread in a Belgium bash session. Too bad, because I agree with some of their points, but it's the way you say it that makes the difference.

I too, as a Dutchman, notice the differences between Belgian and Dutch urban planning. I can't say which way of organizing a country I like best. I like the fact that in Belgium there's more freedom to build a house the way you want and that houses are relatively larger than in the Netherlands. But I don't like the urban sprawl you see in Belgium. If it comes to that point, I like the Dutch way of building more compact cities better.
An architectural thing I'm not really fond of when it comes to Belgium is the fake historical architecture, but I guess that's something you automatically get when you give people more freedom to build any way they want. But who am I to say it's a bad thing, because apparently it's what people like.

Anyway, Belgium in general is one of my favorite countries (great beer!). I only live 10 kilometers from the Belgian border at the moment. :)

The suburbs of major Belgian cities are rather urban if you ask me.

WOW! Honestly, Belgium is a relief after viewing the "Suburbs in the Netherlands" thread! :lol:

You got that right! :) Look at the diversity of styles and options for people in Belgium. NL is just too uptight and fussy about planning. I understand the challenges of preserving as much open land in such a small, vulnerable country but the suburban ubermodernism is suffocating. It's like those council estates in "A Clockwork Orange".

This is rubbish and you know it.

Oke, maybe it was a bit excessive;), but I think houses in Belgium look considerably more poorer than the Dutch houses, except most of the detached houses.

but I think houses in Belgium look considerably more poorer than the Dutch houses

That's funny. I have just the opposite impression. Not only the Dutch houses look poorer, they also look smaller and more boring...

Smaller and more boring definitely yes.
Poorer definitely not. Quite the opposite indeed.

@ Filou:
haha, were have you been in holland?
In Holland are the houses definitely smaller, without a doubt. Poorer definitely not! Boring has to do with taste!

Some equations from google earth.

Amsterdam
http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37699987.jpg

Brussels
http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37700001.jpg

Dutch landscape:
http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37700011.jpg

Belgian landscape:
http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37699995.jpg

The differences between the built-up area and farmland is in holland much bigger than in Belgium.

When I am in Belgium I see mostly streets like this...
(pictures are from ff)
http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37700514.jpg

http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37700513.jpg

http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37700507.jpg

http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37700502.jpg

http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37700500.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/stefcolson/SE8_ZNpC_AI/AAAAAAAAA6I/r647UUzkQ7A/s400/143.JPG

..and when you go to a side street.

http://gratis-zoekertjes.onlinertjes.be/image/image/481180.jpg

http://images9.speurders.nl/images/58/5874/58748419_1.jpg

http://www.bbguide.eu/images/hotels/1142_1_IMG_1290.jpg

http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37701436.jpg

http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/37701432.jpg

^^ I've seen worse and I've seen better in Belgium.
These are not pictures of suburbs or family houses but these are villa's. The difference is that in the Netherlands people with a normal income or low income can still live in an nice neighborhood with play areas and parks. If you are mid or low income in belgium you won't be able to do that.
Nonsense.

Hundred of Thousands Belgians with "normal income" live in free standing villa's in what we call 'verkavelingen'. So it's not only for the rich ones.

Most Belgians have got a private garden with their own playground, even in urban area's and streets with rowhouses. That's true. In Belgian housing policy is more liberal and individual. That's one of the reasons thousands of Dutch prople move to Belgium... ;)

But there area lot of Belgians, specialy in the bigger cities, who live in apartments, like everywhere else in Europe.
And just like in Holland there are public green spaces, small and big parks and public playgrounds.
In my own little town most people do have a garden, but also here there are play areas in almost every neighbourhood. And there are small and big parks.

And in Brussels for example, there are about 100 parks, some are very big. You'll find playgrounds in almost every park and every corner of the aglomeration.

^^

Depends, 2min out of brussels and you are already in quite open house structures... its relative.. but... i dont know... there is a clear difference.

Side streets definitely give a better impression of suburban Belgian than main thoroughfares, which tend to have older and less maintained houses.

^^ I agree. Most visitors only pass the old 'big' roads with what we call "lintbebouwing" (Ribbon development). I'm not proud about that. It's ugly and chaotic and bad for traffic. Sometimes it looks a bit like American mainroads with a mixture of architectural styles and functions.

Depends, 2min out of brussels and you are already in quite open house structures... its relative.. but... i dont know... there is a clear difference.
Around Brussels there are a lot of green and open, rural spaces, that's true.
The hilly Pajottenland in the west or the large Sonian Forest in the south are fine examples.

I don't like the Belgian ribbonstyle, because it ruins the landscape completely. Don't you Belgians care about the open agricultural landscapes? Don't you think it is time for some zone planning in Belgium to save the still untouched open landscapes (not just for nature)? (just asking)

Anyway: why turn this topic into a competition between the Netherlands and Belgium? Let's focus on Belgium here and on the Netherlands in the other Dutch suburb topic.

What's the market like in Belgium? In terms of prices. I graduated 2 years ago and I found a job shortly after. It pays just under 2000 a month (after taxes). With that salary, I bought an apartment (80 sqm) in The Hague for 110.000 - almost in the city center. Could you do that in Belgium? Or would you be looking at completely different prices and property?

^^ Looks good value to me. I don't know the exact prices in the big cities of our country. And all depends on the kind of apartment, the age, the area it's situated in, the quantity of (bed)rooms etc...

There are several forum-members who bought a flat in Brussels recently, maybe they could help.

I don't like the Belgian ribbonstyle, because it ruins the landscape completely. Don't you Belgians care about the open agricultural landscapes? Don't you think it is time for some zone planning in Belgium to save the still untouched open landscapes (not just for nature)? (just asking)

There is a zone planning (really!) but it came too little too late...
And there's still a lot of open, agricultural landscape left. But it's sometimes hidden behind the ugly (indeed!) ribbon development.
Most foreigners only see railroads, highways an other big roads, when travelling through or in the country.
But take your time to cycle one of the numberous bicycle-routes on the countryside, and you will explore a totaly different landscape.

What's the market like in Belgium? In terms of prices. I graduated 2 years ago and I found a job shortly after. It pays just under 2000 a month (after taxes). With that salary, I bought an apartment (80 sqm) in The Hague for 110.000 - almost in the city center. Could you do that in Belgium? Or would you be looking at completely different prices and property?

That's because you bought an appartment is one of the cheapest neigbourhoods of The Hague. In most parts of the city a 80 sqm appartment would cost you almost twice as much.

Let's not forget the Ardennes, which are far less populated. Some typical Ardennes houses:

http://www.lachaumine.be/chaumine_foto_home_0010.JPG

http://www.ardennenvertier.be/uploads/images/stavelot/stavelot_b_en_b.jpg

http://www.villaxl.com/fr/search/image/img/2447_10.jpg

http://effectontheweb.vbo.nl/KantoorData/8055/Images/140734/8055_140734_10$126.jpg

http://users.netservices.be/ardennenvakantiehuis/images/2839359_6.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4690321975_82c06d8067_b.jpg

For more images visit:http://www.15usd.net

^^ WTF?....

For more images visit:http://www.15usd.net

^^ damn stop spamming this forum!

Een Vlaams dorp van 6000 inwoner (Nieuwerkerken):

foto's zijn van slechte kwaliteit, al fietsend getrokken één jaar geleden...

Straten met vrijstaande huizen alom tegenwoordig.
Voetpaden kennen we niet tenzij in het 'centrum', rioollijn wat is dat???
Een dood centrum dat uit één of twee straten bestaat met aansluitend de hoofdweg.
De kleine winkeltjes die er ooit waren, nu weg of leegstaand door de komst van een supermarkt in de jaren 70

Straten uit de jaren 90

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4080/4830000363_d3b47dedae_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4135/4830614268_e6b292597b_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4135/4830614268_e6b292597b_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4830005707_dace33774e_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4094/4830619670_2bb76d153d_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4830621046_eaa473bf7c_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4830009745_fe9d72f778_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4830623772_db56697e02_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4097/4830012605_13a99e0ed0_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4830626502_9e2eceba6b_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4116/4830019521_07d24a16c3_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4830023901_38b48ba86e_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/4830026611_7da78da9eb_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4830640478_32befbece2_b.jpg

Straten uit de jaren 70

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4082/4830029581_490f01d44a_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4830032961_f323eb4cfd_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4097/4830036147_0b45e1d063_b.jpg

Het centrum:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4830649788_ab94d52185_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4093/4830650996_ef44a20893_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4830652478_3e2876fdf4_b.jpg

Oude hoofdweg, wat bezoekers van België dus vooral zien...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4136/4830049977_c5ec074dfc_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4830665350_ef73957a65_b.jpg

Ook op de hoofweg, een lelijke villa:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4080/4830044015_ea1abb96ed_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4099/4830048481_f8bb12793b_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/180820070907/4830666648/in/photostream/

Belgische nostalgie: Een frietkot, vrij slecht onderhouden

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4093/4830655008_e1a63aec81_b.jpg

Van de hoofdweg terug naar de straat waar ik woon:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4830668882_523aa28ba4_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4095/4830673982_8a098037c5_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4830675278_e6ea381c78_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4082/4830063677_d3b88e0310_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4830065171_7ecd3b8f6c_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4830680366_472c4709ba_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/4830685820_ee7a5f9098_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4096/4830687030_d919029c26_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4830077213_76137c028b_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4073/4830080919_d8d41b1795_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4080/4830694702_89002012ea_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4830696012_7dc90ef582_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4830699980_9eeb9faf7d_b.jpg

Srry for the poor quality but I was biking remember :D

delete

Ok my photo's do not appear.
I've posted all these images on Flickr and than copy pasted the URL.
What have I done wrong? Anyone?

I believe you made your pictures private on Flickr.

or upload them on photobucket ;)

@ Joshsam: These pictures are good examples of how Belgium suburbs look like.

This is the village where iI took the photo's:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4830495537_714187d0de_b.jpg

Here you can see the area around the village. You can see the main roads from the city Sint-Truiden. Most of them are ribbon developed, but you can see a lot of open space between them. Roads that lead to small villages around the city are also ribbon developed and most villages have an streched structure because of this. I must admit that this is in Limburg, one of the less populated provinces in the Flanders region.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4831111846_aae51b1858_b.jpg

The rest of Flanders looks more like this:
You can see the isolated patches of farmland and forest between the suburban towns/villages. It's clear that we Belgians don't have a neat urban plannig like the Dutch ;)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4830554933_9958a89562_b.jpg

I believe you made your pictures private on Flickr.


I've fixed the problem :) Thx anyway!

Ha I am from Nieuwerkerk. It appears youve got us beat. :lol:
Housing is indeed better in Belgium. Reasons housing is so expensive in the Netherlands is mainly our shitty planning commissions/ zoning, only a small part of dutch soil is 'marked' for housing etc. Most is marked for agriculture, the problem is mainly created by our shitty inefficient meddling government, this again causes a lack of competition on the market. People are not able to simply purchase land and build like in Belgium. Which is a big shame.
Belgians are way better of then the Dutch.

People are not able to simply purchase land and build like in Belgium. Which is a big shame.I am glad it's not possible, so we still got some open space in our country. The only place where we can allow such a development is perhaps in South Holland, simply because there is not much landscape left to destroy. But anyway, also landscapes in the Netherlands are under great pressure because of the still expanding cities and industrial zones. So i guess the current economical crisis is a bliss for those who do actually care about the open rural areas. :cheers:

I am glad it's not possible, so we still got some open space in our country. The only place where we can allow such a development is perhaps in South Holland, simply because there is not much landscape left to destroy. But anyway, also landscapes in the Netherlands are under great pressure because of the still expanding cities and industrial zones. So i guess the current economical crisis is a bliss for those who do actually care about the open rural areas. :cheers:

Open space. yet the majority of people never see that open space and it is barely used. Instead of letting the dutch population enjoy a greater quality of living/ housing and more personal space. Yay for miles and miles and miles of near useless cheap grassland that is hardly used and of no service to the majority of the nation.
We could do with a lot less 'open space' and most wouldnt even notice consciously.

Most wouldn't notice? Perhaps those who grew up in the big cities.

So you think the open grasslands in the rural area will be used for something like 'the majority'? No way, building big houses on these lands will only be affordable for the upper class. Most people will stay in their current cities, while a small group with money will buy large plots in the open and make it unaccessable with fences. Nice development..

@ cjav: I am happy you don´t work in our government.

I would love it to live in a Detached house with a lot of space around it, but we have to live with it that it´s just not possible in Holland. After Singapore, Holland is the most densely country in the world and if you compare Singapore with Holland we live quite huge.

The Detached houses in Belgium look quite nice, but if you look to the neighbourhoods entirely it just don´t fits in the landscape. It´s to spread out. I also rarely see a sidewalk around the streets.

Edit: comment directed at ramses.
Thats the way it is right now. You need to be rich to be able to give your family a descent amount of space. This is completely unnecessary, look at how small the percentage of the country is that is actually urban. More then 65% of avaible space is currently destined for agriculture, add all the 'nature' to this and see how little is actually left as urban, we could be living a with a lot more space then we currently do. Right now you have to be rich to be able to afford a house that is middle income in Belgium and it is completely unnecessary.

@Bartjee I simply fundementally disagree with the idea that there isnt enough space. Sure Belgium is a mess, be honest the Netherlands would never be such a mess. Doesnt change the fact that we could be living with more space. Plus you are wrong on the facts, plenty of countries with a higher population density. The difference between the Netherlands and Singapore are bigger then those between the Netherlands and Norway. Belgium isnt far off from the Netherlands. Time to realize those arguments are nonsense. We could be having a lot more

Ha I am from Nieuwerkerk. It appears youve got us beat. :lol:
Housing is indeed better in Belgium. Reasons housing is so expensive in the Netherlands is mainly our shitty planning commissions/ zoning, only a small part of dutch soil is 'marked' for housing etc. Most is marked for agriculture, the problem is mainly created by our shitty inefficient meddling government, this again causes a lack of competition on the market. People are not able to simply purchase land and build like in Belgium. Which is a big shame.
Belgians are way better of then the Dutch.

Well I've always liked the Dutch planned suburbs. I see nothing wrong in zoning really, Belgium would be better of is there was a zoning like in the Netherlands. We do have a zoning but it's quite messy. eg: Building is allowed on the right side on the road but not on the left and 200 meters further is the opposite... Building space is quite limited in Belgium too but the last years we are renewing our city centers witch were in a terrible state during the 90ties. Apartments in the city center are attractive again and people build less houses in the country side.

Very good image that shows the build up area in Flanders:This is an estimation for 2030. I find the image quite disgusting!

http://www.vito.be/NR/rdonlyres/C40DC038-C2D2-45A1-97F0-E1F8739924F7/0/Vlaanderen2030inbo.jpg

Here an image that shows how zoning in Belgium is done. You can see that it make absolutely no sense. Red=buildup area, red and white stripes or red crosses on white= area ment for building. You can see it actually encourages ribbon development. These plans did not change sinds the 70ties!:ohno: They did not looked into the future and based the plans on the situation during the 70ties.

http://groenhamme.be/system/files/albums/kastgewe.jpg

You should be glad that your country does so mutch effort in planning!

Another reason why the government in holland provident is with our space is that more than 50% of our country is below the sea level. In the future we probably need more water areas to store the water, because of the rising sea level caused by climate change. A lot of the surface in Holland is already water.

^In that case i find it quite strange the city of Rotterdam is allowed to build on the lowest point on the Dutch mainland in Zuidplaspolder. :?

Tipical Belgium:
Random found on the internet:
http://www.frankbogers.nl/luchtfotos/Hoogerheide/luchtfoto-hoogerheide.jpg
http://www.frankbogers.nl/luchtfotos/Hoogerheide/luchtfoto-hoogerheide.jpg

http://www.frankbogers.nl/luchtfotos/Putte/Luchtfoto-Putte.jpg
http://www.frankbogers.nl/luchtfotos/Putte/Luchtfoto-Putte.jpg

http://www.kruibeke.be/fotoalbum/plaatjes/images/k_luchtfoto.jpg
http://www.kruibeke.be/fotoalbum/plaatjes/images/k_luchtfoto.jpg

http://www.frankbogers.nl/luchtfoto-lepelstraat-fb003.jpg
http://www.frankbogers.nl/luchtfoto-lepelstraat-fb003.jpg

http://www.fotostichtingdiessen.nl/images/luchtfoto-Diessen.jpg
http://www.fotostichtingdiessen.nl/images/luchtfoto-Diessen.jpg

http://www.aalst.be/_images/fotogalerij/wonen/luchtfoto%20centrum.jpg
http://www.aalst.be/_images/fotogalerij/wonen/luchtfoto%20centrum.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/i/westerloluchtfotout3.jpg/
http://img223.imageshack.us/i/westerloluchtfotout3.jpg/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Luchtfoto_van_Tongeren_(station)_DSC00012.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Luchtfoto_van_Tongeren_(station)_DSC00012.JPG

http://www.artimara.com/Images/luchtfoto%202.JPG
http://www.artimara.com/Images/luchtfoto%202.JPG

@ Ramses: I think there are no projects to store water there. Most of the projects to store water take place beside the rivers.

Rural Belgium :D

http://www.vildaphoto.net/photo.php?id=15766
http://www.vildaphoto.net/photo.php?id=15766

http://www.dorpsraadadinkerke.be/images/plop2kl.jpg
http://www.dorpsraadadinkerke.be/images/plop2kl.jpg

You should be glad that your country does so mutch effort in planning!

Would you be glad to live in a smaller house, that is more expensive well getting barely anything in return? As I said there I no reason for it to be such a mess as in belgium but we could be living larger against lower costs.

Thats said the lowest point thing for the Zuidplaspolder is quite moot, if it floods it will flood such a large area that the damage will be astronomical regardless of those new houses. We cant afford to have it flood in any case. :lol:

As for more water storage, sure yet that's still a small amount of area we are talking about. Fact is that we still have a huge amount of low value agricultural area.

Would you be glad to live in a smaller house, that is more expensive well getting barely anything in return? As I said there I no reason for it to be such a mess as in belgium but we could be living larger against lower costs.

Thats said the lowest point thing for the Zuidplaspolder is quite moot, if it floods it will flood such a large area that the damage will be astronomical regardless of those new houses. We cant afford to have it flood in any case. :lol:

As for more water storage, sure yet that's still a small amount of area we are talking about. Fact is that we still have a huge amount of low value agricultural area.

Ok you got a point there... But don't you think the Netherlands would feel like a giant suburb then? Aftherall you have less space than us and your country has almost 6million inhab. more than Belgium. We can always go on to build mansions in the hilly Ardennes:lol:

Like the flemmish really want to move to wallonia :nuts:

;)

Thing is for a lot of people it already feels like a suburb. Only now a closely together overpriced suburb, while we have large patches of almost unused grassland nearby. Great that a farmer is supposed to have a set amount of grassland per animal but in reality the farmer cannot even financially afford to let them run around outside. :nuts: Might as well use it, I see how people can find it nice to drive a bike through grasslands, but how far do you have to see grasslands for it to be nice and what is supposed to be the social and financial cost of that view.
Fact is that the urban areas in the Netherlands are imo denser then they have to be which results in various social problems as well. People here do get on each others nerves.

[QUOTE=cjav;60956641]Like the flemmish really want to move to but how far do you have to see grasslands for it to be nice QUOTE]

Ok you have a good point there. Have you ever been to flanders? I would find it quite nice to only see grandslands for some time. It's unlikely to find something like that in Flanders. Even when your biking trough the country side, you'll always see a couple of houses somewhere... But I know what you mean. Meaby your gouvernment thinks like 100 years in advantage when space gets really scares?

Unlike in The Netherlands, planned neigborhoods in Belgium are rare. The ones that are planned are most likely social housing and estates. Because of that midincome Belgians assoiciate planned neigborhoods with poor people, social problems and crime.

Some of Belgians housing estates and social housing:

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/22.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/21.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/20.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/19.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/18.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/17.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/16.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/15.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/14.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/13.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/12.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/11.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/10.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/9.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/8.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/7.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/6.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/5.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/4.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/23.jpg

Like the flemmish really want to move to wallonia :nuts:


Since when you're the expert on Belgium?

Lots of Flemish people (near the Flemish-Walloon 'border') move to Wallonia because of the open space and cheap grounds.

To give an image of how People live in Belgium I jumped on my bike and made a small tour trough my own village. I'm riding from my own street towards the main road, connecting the cities Sint-Truiden and Diest, and back towards my house. You can see that houses become smaller, older and grittier towards the main road. The main road is ribbon style for miles in both directions. Old and new, all styles, all mixed up. It doesn't get any more Belgian than this ;)

I like the detached brick homes but I noticed some of the homes have taken over what seems to be the sidewalk or is that part of their property as well?

I like the detached brick homes but I noticed some of the homes have taken over what seems to be the sidewalk or is that part of their property as well?

In most small towns and villages suburbs do not have sidewalks in Belgium. The first 2-2.5 meters are property of the city, but the city does not do the effort to make sidewalks ( which actually isn't really that useful cause nobody would use them anyway) people can do whatever they want with this. When the city decides that there should be a sidewalk then they can, without warning, breakup whatever you have standing on that piece of ground. That's why most people just let their mown grow against the street or just throw some gravel on it... As you can see in my street most houses lay down pavement on their driveway but not all the way to the street. They leave a spear 2-2.5meters open with gravel.

Actually relooking at my pictures I see that lots of houses have the pavement of their driveway lying against the street. But these people know that the city can do whatever they want.
They neigbouring city (Sint-Truiden) has in most suburbs sidewalks. It has a pop of 40.000 and the village where I live only 7000. Sint-Truiden has much more money then a village like mine... When I get a chance I'll try to take some pictures overthere and show how Belgian city centers are like...

To give an image of how People live in Belgium I jumped on my bike and made a small tour trough my own village. I'm riding from my own street towards the main road, connecting the cities Sint-Truiden and Diest, and back towards my house. You can see that houses become smaller, older and grittier towards the main road. The main road is ribbon style for miles in both directions. Old and new, all styles, all mixed up. It doesn't get any more Belgian than this ;)

yes, at least flanders you can imagine as an endless variation of this.

Typical for Belgian sub-urbanism is it has always been primarely based on people building houses next to already existing roads - in contrast to typical suburbia which is based on developing streets to build houses. Belgium in this sense can be seen as a web-city, with patches of agricultural land closed in behind the houses.

yes, at least flanders you can imagine as an endless variation of this.

Typical for Belgian sub-urbanism is it has always been primarely based on people building houses next to already existing roads - in contrast to typical suburbia which is based on developing streets to build houses. Belgium in this sense can be seen as a web-city, with patches of agricultural land closed in behind the houses.

If I look a the Netherlands on google earth I can also find ribbon development in the country side. But that's historical development right? The Netherlands changed his policy and Belgium didn't...

Ribbon develoment in The netherlands:

http://michel.klijmij.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/dscn0296.jpg
http://michel.klijmij.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/dscn0296.jpg

Ribbon development Belgium:

http://nieuwsblad.typepad.com/merelbeke/images/2008/12/22/9820_merelbeke4569010807.jpg
http://nieuwsblad.typepad.com/merelbeke/images/2008/12/22/9820_merelbeke4569010807.jpg

http://www.infogids-online.be/nieuws/20090319_Luchtfoto.jpg
http://www.infogids-online.be/nieuws/20090319_Luchtfoto.jpg

http://www.brielen.be/luchtfoto2003.jpg
http://www.brielen.be/luchtfoto2003.jpg

http://wachtebeke-anders.be/acties/wonen/Luchtfoto%20Wachtebeke.JPG
http://wachtebeke-anders.be/acties/wonen/Luchtfoto%20Wachtebeke.JPG

Perhaps I am getting the wrong impression from the photo's but when I look at them I always get the feeling the windows are a lot smaller then on Dutch houses an a lot of them are blocked by curtains or even big metal screens that I have only seen on stores in the Netherlands. Combined with the fact that for instance on the photo's of joshsam there is not a single person visible the streets look very lifeless to me. What is the Belgian view on this? I really do not want to criticise you :)

The Dutch can enjoy their precious open spaces... from behind barbed wire... However, the Belgian zoning is just the opposite end, I prefer the German one. Detached homes with a large yard, but in a regular development, not a ribbon development. That way you can still enjoy the open landscapes yet have a better housing quality.

If I look a the Netherlands on google earth I can also find ribbon development in the country side. But that's historical development right? The Netherlands changed his policy and Belgium didn't...

Exact. In Dutch planning within built-up area ('bebouwde kom') different rules apply as outside the built-up area - and have been for a long time, I think (the birth of Dutch spatial planning is in 1901). Outside built-up it's virtually impossible to get a permit to build. Belgium's spacial planning - a belgian architect explained me once - up to last decade primarily consisted of the rule 'if you have a plot adjacent to a road, you may build'. Not sure if that's 100% true, though.

In general, The Netherlands is the capital of spacial planning, Belgium is the capital of laissez faire. Both have their charms and limitations.

Perhaps I am getting the wrong impression from the photo's but when I look at them I always get the feeling the windows are a lot smaller then on Dutch houses an a lot of them are blocked by curtains or even big metal screens that I have only seen on stores in the Netherlands. Combined with the fact that for instance on the photo's of joshsam there is not a single person visible the streets look very lifeless to me. What is the Belgian view on this? I really do not want to criticise you :)

Well: In old houses windows are smaller indeed. But in newer houses, windows are most of the time larger. We don't like a view on the street. So we try to have small windows on front and have big windows in the back were we can enjoy the view of our nice garden :).

I don't know what you mean exactly by metal screens but I think it might be a roll-down shutter(rolluik in Flemish). Yes we Belgians like them very much :) They keep out heat during summer and especially people who live next or nearby busy roads place them against the noise of the never stopping traffic. Because of the ribbon developments traffic is heavy on a lot of roads... Also: They prevent burglars from braking in your home trough the windows. I don't know if burglary is common in The Netherlands but if you live in Belgium it happens nearby you more than once in your life.

For the people on the street: It was in village with pop 7000 and at a time that almost everyone is at work :). Btw I don’t think that in a village of 7000 a lot of people walk on the streets in The Netherlands, or do they? :) But overall there is not much to do in small town and villages so why walk somewhere? Except for a bank, a small supermarket, 2 night shops, 2 cafés were only “tooghangers” go(people that only drink beer all day),and some restaurants there is really nothing else... So in my village people take the car to city of Sint-truiden or the city of Hasselt were they can have a nice walk along the shopping streets and have a drink on the terrace of a café.

Exact. In Dutch planning within built-up area ('bebouwde kom') different rules apply as outside the built-up area - and have been for a long time, I think (the birth of Dutch spatial planning is in 1901). Outside built-up it's virtually impossible to get a permit to build. Belgium's spacial planning - a belgian architect explained me once - up to last decade primarily consisted of the rule 'if you have a plot adjacent to a road, you may build'. Not sure if that's 100% true, though.

In general, The Netherlands is the capital of spacial planning, Belgium is the capital of laissez faire. Both have their charms and limitations.

Well, up until the 70ties that explanation is right. Afther that Belgium made a zoning (that looks like shit), but people didn't really cared about it and there was really noone who did. When the plans where made and you knew somone who worked with the gouvernment. You could simply ask if it wasn't possible to "accidently" coulor something in as land for building on a specific cordinate :p. Lot of things where corrupt in Belgium in those times...

The Dutch can enjoy their precious open spaces... from behind barbed wire... However, the Belgian zoning is just the opposite end, I prefer the German one. Detached homes with a large yard, but in a regular development, not a ribbon development. That way you can still enjoy the open landscapes yet have a better housing quality.

Doesn't Germany have one of the highest ratios of apartment-dwellers and the lowest ratio of owner-occupiers in the EU? I have seen many nice, high quality detached homes (presumably owned rather than rented) in villages there but towns and cities seem to be mostly apartment buildings. :dunno:

And doesn't the Netherlands have public access/rights of way through the open land?

In the UK too it is pretty difficult to build housing outside built-up areas and designated development zones, preserving open countryside is one of the reasons given for this policy, but there is an extensive network of paths, trails and other routes which cross-cross the countryside and have to be maintained by landowners. This gives people access to agricultural land for leisure.

Doesn't Germany have one of the highest ratios of apartment-dwellers and the lowest ratio of owner-occupiers in the EU? I have seen many nice, high quality detached homes (presumably owned rather than rented) in villages there but towns and cities seem to be mostly apartment buildings. :dunno:



That's true, but single-family homes and duplexes still make up about 40 to 60%
of the residential building stock in the major German cities, suburbs not included.

@ Jonesy, technically there is officially a right of way in many places. In reality is different however, much of our 'nature' is governed by for example 'staatsbosbeheer' or the state's forest management, if you translate it literally itself puts up official ' no trespassing' signs and simply starts handing our fines. Every local farmer that is supposed to maintain these old 'right of way' roads and paths puts up a gate, electric fence and barb wire. quite of the maintenance is non-existent as well. Try enjoying a nice biketrip or walk if you have to climb fences and barbwire every few hundred feet. Usually it means you are restricted to the main well maintained roads, certainly in the western part of the country.
In those cases I would really wish we didn't have these rules. I'd really prefer cheaper more spacious housing and living and I think most Dutch agree with me. There is a reason so many of us buy houses in other countries ( even if only as a second home )
I very much understand that some people would prefer to move to Germany and be able to afford a BMW instead of a shitty Opel and have a house twice the size as in the Netherlands. I do think you have to be richer in the Netherlands to enjoy some of the standards common in Germany.

^^ Thanks, that does seem pretty restrictive. Here if a landowner doesn't maintain a right of way through their land, you can complain to the local council and if they don't sort it out after a warning they can be fined.

Our publicly owned Forestry Commission also usually maintains foot/bike trails and other facilities in many places, trying to combine forestry business with leisure.

Like this one for example

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/coed-y-breninforestpark

So much detached houses must give an huge amount of sprawl in a small country like Belgium you might think. But actually it's not that bad. I've chosen out for you one of the worsed sprawled area's in Belgium. Even if you look at the cities in The Netherlands they look more sprawled...

South Brussels:

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Brussel2.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Brussel1.jpg

Suburbs of Bruges:

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Brugge1.jpg

Suburbs of Antwerp

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Antwerp3.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Antwerp2.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Antwerp1.jpg

Suburbs of Ghent

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/1a.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Gent2.jpg

Rijsel-Tourcing-Kortrijk Metroplis. This area lies just acros the Belgium border in France and sprawls over it. Kortrijk is in fact a Belgian city. Right of the Border line is Belgium. I've always found it one of the most spread out area's of development.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/RijselTourcing.jpg

This city was just a small village untill the 50ties. It sprawls like crazy and has now only 70.000 inhab.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Genk.jpg

This is one of the most Sprawled cities in Belgium. It's mainly because the landscape is hilly. It's also one of the poorest cities in Belgium and Europe. Afhter the steel factories closed lots of people became jobless and there is no other work to find in the region. A couple of years ago it rated as the most ugly and dangerous city in Europe. Lets say its like the Detroit of Belgium: Charleroi.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Charleroi.jpg

Well: In old houses windows are smaller indeed. But in newer houses, windows are most of the time larger. We don't like a view on the street. So we try to have small windows on front and have big windows in the back were we can enjoy the view of our nice garden :).

I don't know what you mean exactly by metal screens but I think it might be a roll-down shutter(rolluik in Flemish). Yes we Belgians like them very much :) They keep out heat during summer and especially people who live next or nearby busy roads place them against the noise of the never stopping traffic. Because of the ribbon developments traffic is heavy on a lot of roads... Also: They prevent burglars from braking in your home trough the windows. I don't know if burglary is common in The Netherlands but if you live in Belgium it happens nearby you more than once in your life.

For the people on the street: It was in village with pop 7000 and at a time that almost everyone is at work :). Btw I don’t think that in a village of 7000 a lot of people walk on the streets in The Netherlands, or do they? :) But overall there is not much to do in small town and villages so why walk somewhere? Except for a bank, a small supermarket, 2 night shops, 2 cafés were only “tooghangers” go(people that only drink beer all day),and some restaurants there is really nothing else... So in my village people take the car to city of Sint-truiden or the city of Hasselt were they can have a nice walk along the shopping streets and have a drink on the terrace of a café.

Now that I think of it it's indeed not weird that there are no people on the street, it would be the same here on residential streets. Also I do not know if burglary is less common in the Netherlands but I do not expect a big difference (I myself do not know someone who ever experienced this), still I wonder if the "rolluiken" would help much, if a burglar breaks a window to get into a house that would be quite noticeable.

Now that I think of it it's indeed not weird that there are no people on the street, it would be the same here on residential streets. Also I do not know if burglary is less common in the Netherlands but I do not expect a big difference (I myself do not know someone who ever experienced this), still I wonder if the "rolluiken" would help much, if a burglar breaks a window to get into a house that would be quite noticeable.

I don't think they would brake it but in my own street they managed to losen a brick next to the window and then force open the locking system of the window. Mayby it just gives a save feeling.... I have always had the feeling that The netherlands are safer the Belgium. I know three people where was broken into. Two of them live in my village. The other one is family, they lost 70euro, a flatscreen, jewelery and a pair of brand new tires stored outside under the carport. Police never found the burglar(s)

Some blame it on the Pole, tjech and Ukraine fruit workers that work in our fruit plantations. But it might as wel be your neighbour...

Srry for the poor quality but I was biking remember :D

Thank you for the pics. You have a nice house, the area looks very nice and peacefull.

Thank you for the pics. You have a nice house, the area looks very nice and peacefull.

It's not noticable but more then ok for Belgian standards. We had kind of luck. We owned a house in the city and we sold it 11 years ago. We would have liked to stay closer near the city but then it was to expensive to build a house so we moved to this village where building grounds are cheaper. 10 years ago it costed rougly 240.000 Euro inclusive building ground.Today a house like this costs 450.000 depending on where you are situated. If you can have a house like this near a bigger city you are probably upper-middle class.

But afther all, houses in Belgium are cheaper than appartments. So why not buy a house and have a loan? My parents pay 200euros/month for the next 13 years. Then the house is fully ours.

Countryside sprawl in Belguim is alot like Portugal, in Portugal if you go along the main roads it's pretty much all urbanised, but if you turn of these roads you will immediately be in fields, or more often, forest.

Sorry, these aren't the best examples

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/5005/pict00202.jpg

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2563/pict0030wx.jpg

In most small towns and villages suburbs do not have sidewalks in Belgium. The first 2-2.5 meters are property of the city, but the city does not do the effort to make sidewalks ( which actually isn't really that useful cause nobody would use them anyway) people can do whatever they want with this. When the city decides that there should be a sidewalk then they can, without warning, breakup whatever you have standing on that piece of ground. That's why most people just let their mown grow against the street or just throw some gravel on it... As you can see in my street most houses lay down pavement on their driveway but not all the way to the street. They leave a spear 2-2.5meters open with gravel.

Here at home in some areas of Clark County of which Vegas belong, some older developments with custom built homes, sidewalks are not provided.

Here at home in some areas of Clark County of which Vegas belong, some older developments with custom built homes, sidewalks are not provided.

Some of the wealthiest developments in Albuquerque have no sidewalks either. It depends on how integrated a development is with the urban street grid. It's nice to see all the variation in Belgium.

Some random Housing

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk19.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Woonwij1.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk2.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk3.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk4.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk5.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk6.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk7.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk8.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk9.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk10.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk11.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk12.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk14.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk15.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk16.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Woonwijk17.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk18.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk20.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk21.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/woonwijk13.jpg

Like said before not everything is unplanned in Belgium.

Nice residential neighborhood.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/app.jpg

Mid-income planned neigborhood.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/nieuwbouw.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/normaalsociaal.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/rare.jpg

Social Housing:

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/soicalbloks2.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/soicalblocks.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/soical2.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/soical.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/socialbloks.jpg

Belgian city centers are most likely historical and like the rest of Europe have narrow streets and nice quiet squares... Population density is high and houses and appartments are packed close together.

Bigger cities(500.000+)

Antwerp:

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/ANTWERP.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/ANTWERP2-1.jpg

Ghent:

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/GEnt.jpg

Smaller cities:(60.000-100.000)

Historical:

Hasselt

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/hasselt.jpg


Mechelen

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Mechelen.jpg

More Recent developed city of Genk. This city didn't existed before 1950.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/genk-1.jpg


Smaller cities:(<60.000)

Sint-Truiden

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/sint-truiden.jpg

???

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/2.jpg

Towns and villages

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/village.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/63.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/hoogstraten.jpg

This is one of the most Sprawled cities in Belgium. It's mainly because the landscape is hilly. It's also one of the poorest cities in Belgium and Europe. Afhter the steel factories closed lots of people became jobless and there is no other work to find in the region. A couple of years ago it rated as the most ugly and dangerous city in Europe. Lets say its like the Detroit of Belgium: Charleroi.


Most of it is rubbish. It has been ranked as the most ugly city by an unknow dutch newspaper, so unless you consider dutch people having the ultimate good taste in the world (they created crocs don't you forget) this ranking has no value. And the crime rate isnt higher than in other big belgian cities but there is a kind of paranoia in Belgium about Charleroi. This is still a poor city for belgian average though.
The reason why it's so sprawled is because the city had a big boom of its population due to industry, they needed to build cheap little houses for workers everywhere it was possible (those kind of houses are called "coron": http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coron_(urbanisme)).


Concerning the restriction of city sprawling in Wallonia, I know that the ecologist party (which takes part in the walloon government) hardly try to fight that tendency. Something like ten years ago the concept of "la ville à la campagne" (people who want to live in the countryside with the facilities of a big town) was still very popular. Today the government gives priority to reconvert old useless industrial area rather than sprawl into the countryside for new housing and commercial areas.


The only real planned city in Belgium is of course Louvain-la-Neuve. It has been created when the french speaking student had to leave the university city of Leuven, in the 70's. They didn't choose to move the university in a other french speaking city but decided to build a brand new town, not far from the existing Ottignies. Louvain-la-Neuve is build on an enormous slab so the town is mainly pedestrian, all the cars circulation being underground. It was decided that the town wouldn't be planned on a strict and formal way but rather to look like other begian towns (with small streets and squares,...) . Some pictures below, pictures from ground level here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=48845189#post48845189


http://www.globalview.be/pictures/big/A_506860.jpg

http://www.globalview.be/pictures/big/A_4456.jpg

http://www.globalview.be/pictures/big/A_4458.jpg

http://www.globalview.be/pictures/big/A_4472.jpg

http://www.globalview.be/pictures/big/A_4500.jpg

http://www.globalview.be/pictures/big/A_517113.jpg

http://www.globalview.be/pictures/big/A_8575.jpg

???

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/2.jpg

It's Diest.

What a waste of space!! Are Detached houses really so cheap in belgium or do you just show us houses from the richer people? Can you also show us pictures from whole neighbourhoods?

Some people like a house with a yard. You might like living like a cramped sardine, not everyone does though. I liked all of the styles except modern, it looked kind of brutalist.

Srry for the poor quality but I was biking remember :D

No problem, I am pleasantly surprised by Belgium. Your neighborhood is quite nice.

Most of it is rubbish. It has been ranked as the most ugly city by an unknow dutch newspaper, so unless you consider dutch people having the ultimate good taste in the world (they created crocs don't you forget) this ranking has no value. And the crime rate isnt higher than in other big belgian cities but there is a kind of paranoia in Belgium about Charleroi. This is still a poor city for belgian average though.


No offence, but Charleroi is one of the most ugly cities I've ever seen in my life. It looks neglected, old, run-down and poor. And unfortunately it's not only Charleroi but the entire region (La Louvière, Sambreville,...). I get the same feeling around Liège (Herstal, Seraing,...). When you pass the border from Holland or Limburg it's like you go back 50 years in time.
The center of Liège I like though, also cities like Namur. But on the whole, the (big) Walloon cities have still a lot of work to get anywhere near the (Western) European standards...

^^

What he said was either subjective (ugliness) or false (crime rate). I found it normal to react about it. You can find it ugly and I wouldn’t care a hang (even if I’m sure your trip there was totally superficial and that I could show you things you would appreciate). Some people don’t agree with you cause they like the real and “underground” vibes you can feel there (I’m not a part of them by the way and I don’t consider Charleroi as an amazing city, and I’m also aware there is still a lot of work to do in the former industrial Walloon towns).
It’s just a question of manners. If I think Antwerp is the fashion-wannabe capital par excellence, I’m not gonna write it on an international thread because I find it a bit condescending.

Now please back to the subject

It’s just a question of manners.

No, it's a question of opinions. And on discussion forums like these, it's all about exchanging opinions. Too bad if you don't like some opinions...

If I think Antwerp is the fashion-wannabe capital par excellence, I’m not gonna write it on an international thread because I find it a bit condescending.

But you just did. I hope you feel better now :crazy:

^^

Too bad if you can’t express your opinion without being displeasing. There are several ways to say frankly what you think and still avoid to turn the discussion into a bashing as you always do on every thread where Charleroi is mentioned outside the walloon forum.

And, yeah I feel better :)

Just let me add my 2 cents and say that you're both right. Charleroi IS an ugly corrupt shithole and Antwerp IS a faggy hipster trash dump (and Ghent owns both of them). Doesn't matter though, to the average foreigner belgium looks like one giant shithole, I mean poophole, and rightly so. If there's one thing that we have in common it's the fact that both parts of the country are irreversibly scarred when it comes to urban planning nor do we seem to be bothered doing any maintenance.
Let's rag on each other about things that deserve to be ragged about. Like the flemish being slow-witted racist peasants and the walloons being a bunch of sleazy psychotic leeching communists. Let's cherish our diversity.

Don't mind me, I'm drunk, another side-effect of being belgian. Carry on.

^^droplul sounds like a dutch word..
probably a non belgian..

typisch..

buddy, I'm as belgian as applepie, i mean as a gruut pakske méee stuufvleessuas

well if you dont like belgium ,wel move :)
but yea im not going to argue with a low minded person :) -Out

i'm too fat and too drunk to move dammit, curse this delicious country

^^
Too bad if you can’t express your opinion without being displeasing. There are several ways to say frankly what you think and still avoid to turn the discussion into a bashing as you always do on every thread where Charleroi is mentioned outside the walloon forum.


What am I supposed to say? "Charleroi is a beautiful city with a few ugly streets"? Sorry, but look around. You live in Charleroi apparently. Don't you see Charleroi is in a bad shape? And have you ever visited Antwerp, Leuven,...?

On the other hand: let's just drop it.


Just let me add my 2 cents and say that you're both right. Charleroi IS an ugly corrupt shithole and Antwerp IS a faggy hipster trash dump (and Ghent owns both of them). Doesn't matter though, to the average foreigner belgium looks like one giant shithole, I mean poophole, and rightly so. If there's one thing that we have in common it's the fact that both parts of the country are irreversibly scarred when it comes to urban planning nor do we seem to be bothered doing any maintenance.
Let's rag on each other about things that deserve to be ragged about. Like the flemish being slow-witted racist peasants and the walloons being a bunch of sleazy psychotic leeching communists. Let's cherish our diversity.

Don't mind me, I'm drunk, another side-effect of being belgian. Carry on.

:lol:

You haven't stolen your nickname, that's for sure :lol:

^^ I was thinking the same!

In general Belgians live in much bigger houses than the Dutch.

Not everywhere in Holland the dutch live in smaller houses. In the north there are a lot of bigger houses because there is the ground cheaper than in the Randstad (Amsterdam-Rotterdam-The Hague, metropolian area) It's just that it's a small country with a lot of people. I wish that we could build bigger houses if we had more ground :ohno:

It has been ranked as the most ugly city by an unknow dutch newspaper, so unless you consider dutch people having the ultimate good taste in the world (they created crocs don't you forget) this ranking has no value.

OK, I will take a lot of shit for being Dutch and am not defending Dutch taste in any way, but we did not pollute the planet with the wonders of plastic clogs. Crocs are American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocs

Today I found an article, It's in Dutch I know , mayby I'll put a translation on here later...

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/Scannen-1.jpg

Short content:

The article is about that their is no 'real' country side anymore in Flanders. The only communities that meet the Eurostat standards are sint-Laureins, Averlingem and Vleteren.
According to OESO there are still about 20 communities that meet their standards of countryside...(see names above in article)

Flanders in one of the most parceled regions in Europe and one with the most build up area. There is almost no country side left due to neglect of spatial planning. The odd thing is that the Flemisch government does nothing to stop this. On the contrary: parceling and disintegration continues on freely and in a more rappid speed than ever.

Picture: One of the few communities still considered as one in the country side.

Only 3 out of 308 municipalities in Flanders are considered rural? Wow.

Yes, because of the bad planning. If we had such nice planning as in The Netherlands we would have had a lot more...
Do you know if there are any municipalties in The Netherlands still considered being rural?

It's not clear which definition they use. You can maybe compare it by the number of inhabitants per km². Although it has to be noted Belgian municipalities are significantly smaller than the Dutch ones. (Dutch municipalities continuously merge with each other to improve efficiency).

Yeah Flanders still has small villages but there very outspread en not continuously build up... I personally think The Netherlands has some real country side between towns and cities but there is no such thing as rural communities because they're all to big in population...

^^ Mayby some village like maarheeze or so? or some village in Friesland or Groningen...

Le plat pays' sterft uit
maandag 06 september 2010Auteur: Inge Ghijs Aanraden 8 Delen Bewaar

- Het vlakke Vlaamse platteland, met zijn uitgestrekte weiden, graan- en maïsvelden, is met uitsterven bedreigd, want er zijn maar drie plattelandsgemeenten meer over.

Er blijft bijna geen Vlaams platteland meer over. Dat blijkt overduidelijk uit de officiële statistieken. De federale directie statistiek onderzocht hoeveel gemeenten in België voldoen aan de definitie van ‘landelijke gemeente' die de Organisatie voor Economische Samenwerking en Ontwikkeling (Oeso) en Eurostat hanteren.

Volgens de definitie van ‘dunbevolkte gemeente' van Eurostat heeft Vlaanderen maar drie plattelandsgemeenten meer: Sint-Laureins, Alveringem en Vleteren. Volgens het minder strenge criterium van de Oeso – maximaal 150 inwoners per vierkante kilometer – telt Vlaanderen nog twintig plattelandsgemeenten.

De meeste van die gemeenten liggen in de provincie West-Vlaanderen, de provincie Antwerpen telt er nog maar één (Ravels). Daarmee is Vlaanderen een van de sterkst verkavelde regio's van Europa.

‘Dit ontluisterende beeld is het gevolg van de jarenlange verwaarlozing van de ruimtelijke ordening in Vlaanderen', zegt Eriek Grieten van de Bond Beter Leefmilieu. ‘Merkwaardig genoeg stuurt de Vlaamse overheid hier niet bij. Integendeel: de verkaveling en versnippering gaat ongestoord en in versneld tempo door.'

In Nederland loopt het platteland leeg. Dat fenomeen kennen we in Vlaanderen omzeggens niet. In Sint-Laureins, bijvoorbeeld, is het aantal inwoners in vergelijking met 1977 nog altijd ongeveer hetzelfde. De oorzaak van de verstedelijking is net dat veel mensen van de stad naar het platteland verhuizen. De woonuitbreidingsgebieden zijn volgens Grieten de grote boosdoener. ‘Dat zijn reservegebieden van gemeenten die als woonzone gebruikt kunnen worden als er binnen de bestaande woonzones geen plaats meer is. Er is nog meer dan genoeg ruimte over binnen de bestaande woonzones. Maar het gaat wel regelmatig om vervuilde gronden, die dan eerst opgeruimd moeten worden. En daar wringt het schoentje, want een weide omvormen tot bouwgrond is een stuk makkelijker.'

Geld voor open ruimte

Nog een probleem is de manier waarop gemeenten gefinancierd worden. Extra inkomsten verwerven kan een gemeente nu alleen door meer inwoners en meer bedrijven aan te trekken, waarvoor per definitie meer bouwgrond nodig is. De Vereniging van Steden en Gemeenten heeft onlangs een plattelandsmanifest aan de Vlaamse overheid overhandigd. Daarin pleiten ze ervoor om bij de financiering van gemeenten ook rekening te houden met open ruimtes. Dat kan burgemeesters stimuleren om hun open ruimte te beschermen en niet te snel te bezwijken aan de druk van bedrijven en inwoners om meer nieuwe bouwgronden ter beschikking te stellen.

De klok terugdraaien kan volgens Grieten niet meer. Maar het beleid kan er wel voor zorgen dat de situatie niet erger wordt dan ze nu al is.

^^ Mayby some village like maarheeze or so? or some village in Friesland or Groningen...

Why do you come up with Maarheeze? That's a suburb of Eindhoven. You can find the most rural villages in the provinces of Zeeland, Drenthe, Groningen and Friesland.

^^ It's not...People commute from Maarheze to Eindhoven but Maarheeze is an community on its own. The community of Heeze-Leende is in betweem them and the distance to the outher suburbs of Eindhoven is 12.5 km and city center 16km. Or am I so wrong???

Just let me add my 2 cents and say that you're both right. Charleroi IS an ugly corrupt shithole and Antwerp IS a faggy hipster trash dump (and Ghent owns both of them). Doesn't matter though, to the average foreigner belgium looks like one giant shithole, I mean poophole, and rightly so. If there's one thing that we have in common it's the fact that both parts of the country are irreversibly scarred when it comes to urban planning nor do we seem to be bothered doing any maintenance.
Let's rag on each other about things that deserve to be ragged about. Like the flemish being slow-witted racist peasants and the walloons being a bunch of sleazy psychotic leeching communists. Let's cherish our diversity.

Don't mind me, I'm drunk, another side-effect of being belgian. Carry on.

You should get drunk more often. Gives you infinite wisdom and refreshing honesty.

It's a great place, Belgium. The capital of laissez-fair.

^^ It's not...People commute from Maarheze to Eindhoven but Maarheeze is an community on its own. The community of Heeze-Leende is in betweem them and the distance to the outher suburbs of Eindhoven is 12.5 km and city center 16km. Or am I so wrong???

I think that's more or less the definition of a suburb: an independent commuters town.

Actually, Maarheeze was the wrong example to begin with - the country planning of NL is(/was?) based on limited growth of most villages (just for own population) and several 'growing cores' that absorb population growth. Maarheeze is one of these growing cores; meaning it's mostly a suburb of commuting outsiders.

Your point is still valid though: rural village culture in the Netherlands is very very rare.

But hey, this topic is about Belgium isn't it?

Referring to the original post, it's nice that Belgium actually gives the landowners freedom to build how and what they want - unlike the Netherlands where that power is (from what I've read) usurped by the state. I particularly like some of the pastorie and fermette houses - even though some are too McMansionesque, but I'd even rather live in a McMansion than a house with incredibly ugly "modern" design.

Interesting news:

In Dutch:
http://www.gva.be/nieuws/binnenland/aid974866/gezinnen-trekken-massaal-weg-uit-de-stad-2.aspx

With Google Translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gva.be%2Fnieuws%2Fbinnenland%2Faid974866%2Fgezinnen-trekken-massaal-weg-uit-de-stad-2.aspx

Summary by me:

An increasing amount of families leave the Belgian cities, especially in Antwerp, Brussels and Ghent, a survey shows. 1,875 people left Brussels in 2001, this has increased to 2,800 in 2007.
1,456 people left Antwerp in 2001, which has increased to 4,000 people in 2009. Ghent recorded a population increase in 2001, but saw a decline of 1,666 people in 2007.

The cities are especially losing out on young families, according to Brecht Vandekerckhove. The city still appeals to students and young people, but as soon as they reach 27 years and start a family, they leave the city.

The reason is the Belgian dream: A house with a garden. It seems that this style of housing has become unaffordable in the city.

Yes, because of the bad planning. If we had such nice planning as in The Netherlands we would have had a lot more...
Do you know if there are any municipalties in The Netherlands still considered being rural?

OESO considers a community rural when it has a population density of 150 inh./km² or lower.

So, according to this list (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabel_van_huidige_Nederlandse_gemeenten), the Netherlands still has 63 rural communities (versus 20 in Flanders). Since the Netherlands (in surface area) is about 3 times bigger than Flanders (2,7 times in population), the relative figure for the Netherlands is also slightly higher.

^^ Some caution has to be taken into account though, because Dutch municipalities tend to be far larger than Belgian municipalities. For example, many 150 inhabitants per km²+ municipalities can still be very rural outside the main city. Over half of the Dutch municipalities are over 80 km² in area, while this is probably closer to 30 - 40 km² in Flanders.

The largest Flemish municipality in area is Antwerpen at 205 km², the next largest is Gent at 156 km². There are 30 municipalities in the Netherlands at over 200 km² and 50 municipalities over 150 km² in area.

IT's a sign of progress when the line between rural and urban is blurred and there is no longer a "boundary" that says here city ends, countryside begins. It's post-modern, avant-grade and a pretty much desirable feature as it gives fluidity to the new developments, old cities and everything in between.

IT's a sign of progress when the line between rural and urban is blurred

^^

it's a sign that american way of living can still impress at least some people appart for mexicans and asians.

^^

it's a sign that american way of living can still impress at least some people appart for mexicans and asians.

Here we go again. I'm not only "impressed" by the American way. I think we should ditch (in Europe) most of our excessively tight planning regulations in favor of highway construction and takeover of farmland (we can just import stuff from Africa and Latin America to eat) for housing developments.

It's a more wealthy, modern and individualistic way to live. Should it be our only option? Not at all. But it should be more widely available for those who want. Opening the gates of land development could bring housing prices in Europe lower. Remember: we, in Europe, pay on average 160% more on buying and 90% more or renting the same amount of space as the average American.

We have too few truly American subdivisions in Europe.

The only reason we don't spend 50% of our income in housing is because we are forced do live in more cramped, smaller and less comfortable places. While in America is common for each children to have its own bathroom, here in Europe many houses don't even have separate bathrooms for parents and children - and some think this is a good sign because extra bathrooms would be a "waste of space".

Well instead of trying to turn Europe into a copy of the US, why not just go and live there? You get an enormous house to rattle around in, Europe gets to stay European and the world is a less homogenized place, everybody's happy! ;)

I can see that larger homes are a benefit up to a point but like most other things they are subject to diminishing marginal returns, a 2 adult + 2 kid family might welcome an increase from 80sqm to 120sqm but is increasing a home from 180sqm to 220sqm might not make much difference to the quality of life (unless you are interested in boasting to neighbours and acquaintances about how big your home is) and increasing from 380sqm to 420sqm would barely be noticed.

It would mean more cleaning, maintenance etc though, I spend enough time looking after my 110sqm home which I find perfectly big enough for our 2 adult plus 2 young children household. If we lived in a 500sqm detached home on a 1 hectare plot like you seem to want for everybody then i'd probably have to give up my job to keep on top of the housework :laugh:

IT's a sign of progress when the line between rural and urban is blurred and there is no longer a "boundary" that says here city ends, countryside begins.

That sounds like an entirely subjective statement to me ;)

I can see that larger homes are a benefit up to a point but like most other things they are subject to diminishing marginal returns, a 2 adult + 2 kid family might welcome an increase from 80sqm to 120sqm but is increasing a home from 180sqm to 220sqm might not make much difference to the quality of life (unless you are interested in boasting to neighbours and acquaintances about how big your home is) and increasing from 380sqm to 420sqm would barely be noticed.



I'm sure about diminishing returns. Each family has its prefferences. The quest is to make housing cheaper and open land for development, so those who preffer rowhouses will have them, those who preffer 400m2 houses in 1400m2 estates will get them - at a price short of those only the uber-rich can pay.

So I'm advocating: let's the market decide what gets built and where, to a greater extent (which has nothing to do with careless financing of those houses or so). I want planning systems to be curtailed, to a certain extent, in favor of difuse free market acommodation.

Can you believe that in NL many cities, even in new developments, put an almost unsurmontable obstacle for those who want to build their own houses? They require studies do see whether the proposed house fit the neighborhood etc. etc. etc. There are few spots where you can buy a plot of land and, within general guidelines (not a case-by-case process), you can buil whatever you want provided fire, earthquake-suitability and so are observed.

How does it work in Belgium? I heard that it is far easier to build a house YOU want (not not whose style was selected by a comission of planners and architects) than in Netherlands.

Here we go again. I'm not only "impressed" by the American way. I think we should ditch (in Europe) most of our excessively tight planning regulations in favor of highway construction and takeover of farmland (we can just import stuff from Africa and Latin America to eat) for housing developments.

It's a more wealthy, modern and individualistic way to live. Should it be our only option? Not at all. But it should be more widely available for those who want. Opening the gates of land development could bring housing prices in Europe lower. Remember: we, in Europe, pay on average 160% more on buying and 90% more or renting the same amount of space as the average American.

We have too few truly American subdivisions in Europe.

The only reason we don't spend 50% of our income in housing is because we are forced do live in more cramped, smaller and less comfortable places. While in America is common for each children to have its own bathroom, here in Europe many houses don't even have separate bathrooms for parents and children - and some think this is a good sign because extra bathrooms would be a "waste of space".

Don't take this personally, but you're displaying some truly short-sighted opinions there.

"We can just import stuff from Africa and Latin America to eat." - when Russia was struck down by (rather limited in the greater scheme of events) forest fires this summer, the first thing the government did was put a ban on exports of grain. Rising oil prices will make imported food considerably more expensive and potentially disrupt traffic flows. There is also a moral incentive to safeguard farmland wherever we reasonably can as millions of people the world over continue to starve.

Like it or not, choices need to be made between farmland, infrastructure, housing developments and business parks/industrial areas. We can't develop them all together and we can't just scrap one of them in favor of all the others. Nor can we stick our heads in the sand and pretend eternal growth lies within reach. There are limits that cannot be denied. Turning farmland into housing projects and highways just so you can brush your teeth in your 3rd bathroom every morning before you drive your car to work without any mentionable traffic just means you pass a whole set of problems onto your grandchildren. It's irresponsible.

I could not have said it better myself.^^

It is really shocking to see that some still advocate as Suburbanist is doing!!

Like you said; it is extremely irresponsible and immoral is countless ways..

We don't need to be 100% self-sufficient in food but to completely ignore the security and long-term economic viability of the food chain just so that every household can have a seperate bathroom for each occupant seems rather reckless.

In the 1930s the UK only produced 30% of the food we needed to feed ourselves, the policy was that we should just import most products from colonies around the world because it was cheaper and it meant we didn't have to invest in domestic production.

Of course as soon as world war II started the food supply was a major vulnerability and we had to impose the harshest rationing regime in Europe which lasted until well after the war ended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdom

About the Belgians leaving their city centers: For bigger cities this is a trend that's going on for decades. The empty places don't stay empty, North Afrikan and Arabs fill in this empty place. Most of them are lower class, result is that the city quarters around the city core are ofthen not well maintained and not looked afther. They usually look like shit, i'm really not kidding. That's a real shame because these ofthen 17-18th century quarters have really beatifull architecture and big rowhomes. But now these homes are devided in small cramped appartments and not well maintained because they're owend by 'slum landlords' (huisjesmelkers)

On the other hand: In smaller cities the contrary is happening and a lot of dilipitated buildings are restored or torn down for new appartments.

Losing few thousand people per year is nothing compared to amount of people leaving US cities for the past 50 years. Besides, aren't more Belgians moving back to the cities?

^^ Note that Belgian cities are generally much smaller, there are only a few municipalities in Belgium with more than 100,000 inhabitants. The decline has to be seen relative to population. You cannot compare a city like Philadelphia with Ghent or Antwerp.

For example Antwerp has 472,000 inhabitants and Ghent has 237,000 inhabitants. A 0.5% decline per year could turn out quite significant for such cities.

edit

Remember: we, in Europe, pay on average 160% more on buying and 90% more or renting the same amount of space as the average American.

yes!
that's because american houses are constructed with papier mache and they are 2h30 driving to the next corner store o city downtown.

sorry dude, but your thinking is soooooooooo old!

besides, there are lots of suburbs in Europe and they are very cheap, within 40 minutes from Barcelona there are towns where you can buy a 300m2 house for 80.000E. the thing is most europeans don't like the "american way of consuming", its just you!

since suburbs exists in Europe, what is your problem? Do you want to drive???

I'm sure about diminishing returns. Each family has its prefferences. The quest is to make housing cheaper and open land for development, so those who preffer rowhouses will have them, those who preffer 400m2 houses in 1400m2 estates will get them - at a price short of those only the uber-rich can pay.

So I'm advocating: let's the market decide what gets built and where, to a greater extent (which has nothing to do with careless financing of those houses or so). I want planning systems to be curtailed, to a certain extent, in favor of difuse free market acommodation.

Can you believe that in NL many cities, even in new developments, put an almost unsurmontable obstacle for those who want to build their own houses? They require studies do see whether the proposed house fit the neighborhood etc. etc. etc. There are few spots where you can buy a plot of land and, within general guidelines (not a case-by-case process), you can buil whatever you want provided fire, earthquake-suitability and so are observed.

How does it work in Belgium? I heard that it is far easier to build a house YOU want (not not whose style was selected by a comission of planners and architects) than in Netherlands.

I thought the principle a market should not decide anything alone (surely not the way we live) was accepted by everyone in Europe.

A market without regulations is like a society without laws - you can't call it "free". The theories you advocate imply lots of negative externalities: they enhance your own freedom at the expense of other's. The vector sum of that is a worse and less free society.

We need regulations in order to preserve the resource base, third parties and the evironment from reckless lifestyles. Soil preservation and resource saving are a DUTY. For everyone.

P.S. - I've just realized we've already had a similar debate before, with you advocating "market solutions" for car circulation in city centres. :lol:

IT's a sign of progress when the line between rural and urban is blurred and there is no longer a "boundary" that says here city ends, countryside begins. It's post-modern, avant-grade and a pretty much desirable feature as it gives fluidity to the new developments, old cities and everything in between.

:nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts:

Here we go again. I'm not only "impressed" by the American way. I think we should ditch (in Europe) most of our excessively tight planning regulations in favor of highway construction and takeover of farmland (we can just import stuff from Africa and Latin America to eat) for housing developments.

It's a more wealthy, modern and individualistic way to live. Should it be our only option? Not at all. But it should be more widely available for those who want. Opening the gates of land development could bring housing prices in Europe lower. Remember: we, in Europe, pay on average 160% more on buying and 90% more or renting the same amount of space as the average American.

We have too few truly American subdivisions in Europe.

The only reason we don't spend 50% of our income in housing is because we are forced do live in more cramped, smaller and less comfortable places. While in America is common for each children to have its own bathroom, here in Europe many houses don't even have separate bathrooms for parents and children - and some think this is a good sign because extra bathrooms would be a "waste of space".

And we have too many "truly American subdivisions" over here. It's just not a sustainable path given the vast amount of land already devoured by these housing developments not to mention the commutes, fuel waste, etc. I don't see the pattern going much further here since new households are forming in rentals and condos more than in the traditional single family house. But having a diversity in housing options at various entry points is not a bad idea so long as there's balance and control over the destruction of land. It would be foolish for anyone to rely on imported food at the expense of local crops that provide higher quality and self-sufficiency. In smaller countries, if people are willing to live in densely packed developments, why not build lots of talls in urban centers ( away from historic cores) and leave the immediate surrounds to more open developments to provide more room for those that want that lifestyle? Why should medium density developments be the only option?

IT's a sign of progress when the line between rural and urban is blurred and there is no longer a "boundary" that says here city ends, countryside begins. It's post-modern, avant-grade and a pretty much desirable feature as it gives fluidity to the new developments, old cities and everything in between.Blurred lines between rural and urban is desirable? You call that progress? Strange definition of progress you got there. The countryside is totaly destroyed and it will never be possible to recover anything of it. But yeah, everyone's got a house with lots of space in the rural (for what this rural area is still worth).

For once i agree with Anderson: :nuts::nuts::nuts:

some areal pictures near Brussels

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3212/2918896049_37135481c5.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3039/2919767870_12ccccc583.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3116/2918904175_462ff90110.jpg

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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3220/2918918741_54f309f8dd.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2918922847_6146cb85f3.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3223/2919750568_93d873150a.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2919756722_1b2f805f29.jpg

THAT is the Belgian countryside people !:nuts::)
Except for some areas in west-flanders or limburg this is what the countryside in Flanders looks like.
houses practically everywhere.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2919745740_b75d8f5aae.jpg

R0-N203a interchange near Halle. Was intended as a full motorway interchange, but E429 was never extended for the last few kilometers near Halle.

THAT is the Belgian countryside people !:nuts::)
Except for some areas in west-flanders or limburg this is what the countryside in Flanders looks like.
houses practically everywhere.

I don't know about West-Flanders but for Limburg only the northern part is ribbon development free. In central and south ribbon development is every where altough not that extensive as in the Brussels-Antwerp-Gent triangle.

For the people of the USA here: If you know the Washington DC metro area, The whole of Flanders looks like the outer suburbs of DC. A giant unorganised mess.

Is smart growth becoming popular in Belgium just like it is in parts of the US?

Is smart growth becoming popular in Belgium just like it is in parts of the US?

What do you mean with smart growth? If you mean appartments and mid density neighbourhoods mixed with shops: Yes and no.

It's more of a culture to build appartments with small shops in their ground floors and their are living much much more people in appartments and condos in Belgium than in the USA.

The real question is: are they good planned? answer: no. Why does my village of 6000 inhab needs 3 more appartment blocks of 4 layers and shops wich do not lay in the center but next to fields? No-one knows. A farmer just sold it's ground that was marked as building ground during the 70ties and there you go...

Something we don't like to admid here in Belgium is that we have stripmalls and malls like the USA does. Although they are a lot smaller and there are far less per person then in the USA. We have to admid that next to busy roads, large stores wich can only be reached by car are lined up and have al lot of parkings in front of them.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/14-1.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/13-1.jpg

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http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/1-3.jpg

Those are great in my opinion, to have one or two around large cities is no problem. I don't want to go to a city center when I want to buy shoes. They are close to non-existent in the Netherlands. Why force people to small-scale shops or places badly accessible and expensive by car?

Fine in moderation, but places like this prolific in the US and pretty much all characterless. On the drive from Raleigh to Emerald Isle, NC (and on the way to NY) it felt like we never really left a town as we drove down rural roads littered with billboards and strip malls. I'm not anti-mall but I prefer the buzz of a good town centre.

There is a difference between having 20 - 25 large shopping malls (2 per larger city) in a smaller country, or a country where the roadside is littered with strip developments.

^^ I know you have driven a lot around Europe. Didn't you noticed that along main roads in Flanders a lot of big stores are lined up for miles? The question is: is that compareble to the 'USA' strip malls? I think not but you won't find them in the Netherlands...

This is one example between the Cities of Hasselt and Genk two small cities of 70.000 and 60.000 inhabitands. The road is the 'Genkersteenweg' in Hasselt and Hasseltweg in Genk, and is the old main connection between H and G. Today this road got replaced got replaced by an express road.
The road is 10km in total and i cut out 3.5 km of road whitout stores. Leaves us with a total of 6.5 km of big, magazin like stores.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/15-1.jpg

The stores located along this road:

Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 14 Sfeerfabriek Meubelen
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 23 Synergie Interim Interimkantoren
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 43 AGOM - cleaning services Schoonmaakbedrijf
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 55 Schraepen Patrick Ramen
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 69 IC Vloeren voor het leven - CeraMega Vloeren
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 72 a Nordex Deuren
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 74 Verf met Advies Verf en behang
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 76 Aldi Supermarkt
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 76 Budgetslager Slagerijen
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 82 Home Market Gordijnen en overgordijnen
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 84 Vanden Borre Elektrische huishoudtoestellen
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 110 Movie MAX Videotheken
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 120 Pelsland Kledingwinkels
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 124 De Matrassenkoning (MacNight) Matrassen & lattenbodems
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 148 Franssen Keukens
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 150 Noba Kledingwinkels
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 160 Primo Sport
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 170 Fastre Parketvloeren
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 212 Amazing Hotels - Rendez-Vous Hotel
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 215 Baby 2000 Babyartikelen
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 217 Brantano Schoenwinkel
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 219 Heytens Interieurinrichting
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 245 G-level Kledingwinkels - Jeans
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 245 Sportsdirect.com Sport
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 247 CarpetRight Tapijten
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 249 X2O Badkamers
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 280 Van Marcke Badkamers
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 297 Wood Wood & Co Meubelen
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 299 Sit & Sleep Bedden
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 301 Ster Deco Interieurinrichting
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 303 Delsupehe Kledingwinkels
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 303B Kitchen & Co Keukens
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 303A Max Keukenstudio Keukens
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 303A Outlet Fashion Outlet Store
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 309 De Keukenboulevard Keukens
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 310 Reyskens Slaapkomfort Bedden
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 313 Boflex Zonwering
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 355 Lovotel Hotels - Rendez-Vous Hotel
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 368 Belisol Ramen
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 393/4 Algemene Werken Leekens Gevelreiniging
Hasselt - Genkersteenweg 441 Tegeldecor

Genk - Hasseltweg 18 JBC Kledingwinkels
Genk - Hasseltweg 20 Bart Smit Speelgoedwinkels
Genk - Hasseltweg 20 Casa Huishoudartikelen
Genk - Hasseltweg 21 Schrauwen Badkamers
Genk - Hasseltweg 24 Lidl Supermarkt
Genk - Hasseltweg 26 Hubo Doe-het-zelf
Genk - Hasseltweg 32 Brantano Schoenwinkel
Genk - Hasseltweg 34 Kwantum Interieurinrichting
Genk - Hasseltweg 35 Leen Bakker Meubelen
Genk - Hasseltweg 37 Blokker Huishoudartikelen
Genk - Hasseltweg 46 AVA Papierhandel
Genk - Hasseltweg 54 Muziekhandel Jacky Claes Muziekinstrumenten
Genk - Hasseltweg 70 Prodan Vloeren
Genk - Hasseltweg 74 Aldi Supermarkt
Genk - Hasseltweg 74 Budgetslager Slagerijen
Genk - Hasseltweg 74 EasySleep Matrassen & lattenbodems
Genk - Hasseltweg 74 Eldi TV - Hifi
Genk - Hasseltweg 74 Entrepot - Shoes & Things Schoenwinkel
Genk - Hasseltweg 76 Seats and Sofas Meubelen
Genk - Hasseltweg 76 bus 1 ToyChamp Speelgoedwinkels
Genk - Hasseltweg 76-78 ZEB Kledingwinkels - Jeans
Genk - Hasseltweg 77 Vanden Borre Elektrische huishoudtoestellen
Genk - Hasseltweg 78 Torfs Schoenwinkel
Genk - Hasseltweg 79 GiFi Interieurinrichting
Genk - Hasseltweg 81 Krëfel Elektrische huishoudtoestellen
Genk - Hasseltweg 85 Tankstation Van Reeth Tankstations
Genk - Hasseltweg 95 Etn. Alders Groothandel Auto onderdelen en toebehoren
Genk - Hasseltweg 97 Sleepy Matrassen & lattenbodems
Genk - Hasseltweg 99 Brut de Brut Meubelen
Genk - Hasseltweg 104 Interform Interieur & Design Meubelen
Genk - Hasseltweg 115 De Matrassenkoning Matrassen & lattenbodems
Genk - Hasseltweg 122 Midas Auto - Onderhoud
Genk - Hasseltweg 146 Shoe Discount Schoenwinkel
Genk - Hasseltweg 148 C&A Kledingwinkels
Genk - Hasseltweg 168 Verf met Advies Verf en behang
Genk - Hasseltweg 176 America Ramen
Genk - Hasseltweg 178 Zoomart Dierenspeciaalzaken
Genk - Hasseltweg 183 Santana - Kurkvloeren Vloeren
Genk - Hasseltweg 190 The Kitchen Suite Keukens
Genk - Hasseltweg 194 Alubond Benelux Ramen
Genk - Hasseltweg 203 Atita Papierhandel
Genk - Hasseltweg 224 Chateau d'Ax Meubelen
Genk - Hasseltweg 240 Prenuptia Meubelen
Genk - Hasseltweg 247 Casters Tuincentra
Genk - Hasseltweg 284 Swinnen bvba Ladders
Genk - Hasseltweg 307 Sleep Design Bedden
Genk - Hasseltweg 318 Charles Vögele Kledingwinkels - Dames
Genk - Hasseltweg 392 Cemes BVBA - Spanplafonds Plafonds
Genk - Hasseltweg 402B1 Baens Afwerkingsbedrijf NV Schrijn- en timmerwerken

I've just read that the flemish government will build 45.000 social houses till 2020!

^^ I wonder if they make new building space for them or if they just goiing to fill up space for normal residential use?

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/x.jpg

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/w.jpg

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http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae232/joshsam1808/d.jpg

Find more on this tread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1234257

Nice subdivisions ;) It's not all strip development in Belgium.

^^ There should be more of them though ;)
And the bad part is that these subdivisions are ofthen build next to the old city to city roads and have only this mayor road to go somewhere... It's like strip development on a bigger scale ;)

Hi guys (& gals?),

Here's a music video showing a fairly typical middle-class suburban neighbourhood from Limburg (NE Belgium).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOi6DsZu5go

I live about 2 kms from where this was filmed.

@ our Dutch friends: I know most of you think we all live in those ugly red row houses but that is simply not true. Maybe you could try going off the main roads for a change, many of our side streets lead into nice, clean, modern residential neighbourhoods that very few foreigners ever get to see. I'll definitely admit that the NLs does look cleaner and well kept, but there's rarely any life in your architecture, it all looks a bit samey and a bit too conformist for me. :) Our country is like our people, a bit messy but full of individualism and personal touches. Same as our music, epsecially compared to yours.

^^ As much how I love the Belgian suburbs, I also love the 'Dutch' way of planning. We could learn a thing or two from the Dutch in Belgium ;) It's true that it ofthen is architecture with no soul, but I've seen some really good planned neigbourhoods with lots of differend styles mixed up and I would'nt mind living in one of these clean looking neighbourhoods.
BTW you are from Hasselt? What do you think of the Cederpark development near the station? That looks more like some dense suburbs in The Netherlands...

http://www.vlaamsearchitectuur.be/architectuur/img-norm/cederpark-vis.jpg
http://www.vlaamsearchitectuur.be/architectuur/img-norm/cederpark-vis.jpg

http://www.cederpark.be/content/extensa/uploads/big/cederpark_hasselt1.jpghttp://www.cederpark.be/content/extensa/uploads/big/cederpark_hasselt1.jpg

http://websites.whoman.be/limburgs_vastgoed/i/200/260568_cederpark_hasselt2.jpghttp://websites.whoman.be/limburgs_vastgoed/i/200/260568_cederpark_hasselt2.jpg

http://www.a2o-architecten.be/website/a2o-architecten/assets/images/projectadvimages/detail/HUISVESTING/a2o-architecten_geveloefening_extensa_05.jpg
http://www.a2o-architecten.be/website/a2o-architecten/assets/images/projectadvimages/detail/HUISVESTING/a2o-architecten_geveloefening_extensa_05.jpg


MOdel house in cederpark:

http://www.extensa.be/assets/cache/Kijkwoning_CederPark1_147_720x415.jpghttp://www.extensa.be/assets/cache/Kijkwoning_CederPark1_147_720x415.jpg

What has music to do with this? No Dutch vs Belgium please ;)

First of all, excuse the delay of my reply. I'd completely forgotten about me posting here and I used a throwaway email to register so I don't get any notifications...

Anyway, I like both the Belgian & the Dutch styles as well, they each have their merits. Problem is that so many of our northern neighbours always seem to have this (inbred) need to be overly negative (that's an understatement btw, just being polite here) towards us and our country, so sometimes I feel like poking & prodding them a few times in return... I'm 19 so I'm still allowed to be a bit of an ass!! :)

Also, I'd like to praise you and your pics, you do us all a great service by showing the world another side of this hopelessly misunderstood country.

Now, back to Hasselt. I actually live in the suburbs several kms outside of the city, in Tuilt if you know it. It's cramped in between Kermt, Kuringen & Stokrooie. The style of houses here are very similar to the ones you posted from your St-Truiden area. With regards to the Cedarpark, looks okay I guess. Maybe a bit too blocky and not enough tierelantijntjes. Looks a bit too Lego-like for me. But anything's better than those ugly red row houses, so...

^^ Haha ok than... Thanks... I should get out and make some more photo's of the suburbs of Sint-Truiden wich are like any other flemish city....Mayby next week :D I know Hasselt good.

Hey, I'm also 19 ;) and yes sometimes they do... ;) and I know kermt and kuringen because H4 passes there and that bus I can take to Stevoort when I miss line 5...
I wouldn't want to live near the overcrowded Kuringersteenweg though :p

Edit: Ps check out this tread http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1234257&page=6, also about Belgian suburbs, mostly same pictures I posted here. It got screwed up when Brazilians tried to claim there houses are bigger than ours posting pictures of villa districts while 90% of their population live in small, tiny houses :nuts:
I got mad in that tread :D

^^ Haha ok than... Thanks... I should get out and make some more photo's of the suburbs of Sint-Truiden wich are like any other flemish city....Mayby next week :D I know Hasselt good.

I think you should :) I was going to say maybe some cool pics from around the "fruitstreek" would be good but I just remembered that it's winter... wouldn't be the same without all the blossoms. I used to really like Sint-Truiden btw, until my ex-girlfriend moved there. De trut! Nah, just kidding, I love it there :colgate:

I wouldn't want to live near the overcrowded Kuringersteenweg though :p

Yeah, I know what you mean. Luckily I don't live too near to it, our house is along the road from the Carrefour to Stokrooie & Bolderberg (and then on to Zolder race track, we can just about hear the races here), not really a quiet road either but nothing like the steenweg.

Edit: Ps check out this tread http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1234257&page=6, also about Belgian suburbs, mostly same pictures I posted here. It got screwed up when Brazilians tried to claim there houses are bigger than ours posting pictures of villa districts while 90% of their population live in small, tiny houses :nuts:
I got mad in that tread :D

I read it before I came to this thread so I saw that lol. I like Brazil tho, cool country from what I've seen and with the Brazilian immigrants here increasing I've met a few and they were all great people.

Anyway, maybe I'll buy a digital camera as well and take some pics of my area.. Who knows..

I think you should :) I was going to say maybe some cool pics from around the "fruitstreek" would be good but I just remembered that it's winter... wouldn't be the same without all the blossoms. I used to really like Sint-Truiden btw, until my ex-girlfriend moved there. De trut! Nah, just kidding, I love it there :colgate:

Sint-truiden is just some small provincial town like you find them everywhere in Belgium. I like it here. And i'm proud of our grand market and our big old buildings that make the innercity of Hasselt look small :D But ofcourse is Hasselt much bigger and I like the shopping overthere. :)
I don't really get what everyone finds so special about the blossoms :D it's only like 2-3 weeks a year you get to see them anyway...

Today I'm more in Hasselt than in Sint-Truiden because I study in Hasselt...

I'm planning to do a tread about Sint-Truiden in the .be section soon because there isn't one yet, but it takes so much time to make the photos... Time I just can't seem to find...

Mayby you could revive the tread about HAsselt :D

@ our Dutch friends: I know most of you think we all live in those ugly red row houses but that is simply not true. Maybe you could try going off the main roads for a change, many of our side streets lead into nice, clean, modern residential neighbourhoods that very few foreigners ever get to see. I'll definitely admit that the NLs does look cleaner and well kept, but there's rarely any life in your architecture, it all looks a bit samey and a bit too conformist for me. :) Our country is like our people, a bit messy but full of individualism and personal touches. Same as our music, epsecially compared to yours.

QUE???

The red rowhouses aren't the problem (on the contrary).

Even the residential neighbourhoods absolutely aren't the problem.

The major problem is the 'lintbebouwing': the 'ribbons' of detached 'villa's' along major roads between villages, for miles and miles...

The problems with houses in Brussels is that they are so close together, that one has the feeling to live in trenches. Plus the gray weather makes it sometimes quite depressing...

^^ depends on what part of the city you live...The belle epoque housing in Brussels is great! Ofcourse there are these ugly, not well maintained rowhomes. But well, I would rahter have a nice rowhome than living in a small appartment on the 20th floor ;)


I'll take the nice rowhomes area's of brussels any time over highrise flats or dull new architecture of aappartments these days:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Brussel/Leopoldwijk/Brussel244.jpg
credit: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/member.php?u=42720

And the next tour. From Louise to home, via the community limits of St-Gillis.
rue Blanche, sideroad of the Avenue Louise. A very typical view, some older buildings, some uninspired appartment blocks, and cars everywhere. Whe're in Brussels proper (Louise), St-Gilles starts about halfway this street.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1910.jpg

However, communes are really side by side in this area. The next street already:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1911.jpg

This nice house is the Ciamberlani House on rue Defacqzstraat. It's being restored now:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1912.jpg

Same street, looking in the direction of Louise:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1914.jpg

And in the direction of Ste Trinité/H. Drievuldigheid. They made an attempt to integrate the modern building in the block of houses:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1916.jpg

Holy Trinity Church, in Ixelles/Elsene. The photo is taken from St-Gilles :)
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1917.jpg

What you can find on the square round the church:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1918.jpg

And we ride further.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1921.jpg

This is Avenue Molièrelaan, on the border of Elsene/Ixelles and Ukkel/Uccle:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1924.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1925.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1927.jpg

And now it's St-Gilles again, or Forest/Vorst, somewhere in the vicinity of the old prisons:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1928.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1929.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1930.jpg

Sint-Gillis is calling:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1933.jpg

Town Hall of St-Gillis, calling itself a little preposterous Hôtel de Ville (City Hall).
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1934.jpg

Ste Alène/St-Alena Church along the avenue Villalaan.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1936.jpg

Kemmelberglaan/avenue du Mont Cemmel. View on the park of St-Gilles/Forest is included in the price:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1938.jpg

I wouldn't mind living here:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1945.jpg

The park of Vorst/Sint-Gillis, looking up. In the background the building at Albert.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1955.jpg

Another view at the park and a skyline of Brussels:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1957.jpg

We 're close to Altitude/Hoogte 100, and St Augustin Church:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/barvdw/IMG_1964.jpg

CREDIT GOES TO:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/member.php?u=53633

^That's why I could spend years happily wondering around Belgian towns and cities. They're so full of character and interesting detailed buildings. Liege, Antwerp, Ghent and Brugge always have something interesting around every corner.

I also love how you, like the Dutch, aren't afraid to build interesting modern buildings. Even some of your strip mall developments are built in interesting styles. We've driven between Brugge and Ghent on the N9 and some of the stores are eye catching IMO.


http://www.extensa.be/assets/cache/Kijkwoning_CederPark1_147_720x415.jpg
^That's a beautiful interior!!

C'est une ville vraiment curieuse Bruxelles. Il y a du style allemand, de l'anglais, du hollandais, un peu de français. Il y a aussi ces mouvements internationaux, l'art nouveau par exemple. Je ne savais pas qu'il y en avait autant d'ailleurs à Bruxelles ! Et ces fenêtres au pourtour rond, qui font penser à quelque porte chinoise, témoignent d'une créativité extraordinaire. Quand je pense qu'en Chine ou au Vietnam, ils ont des coûts de main-d'oeuvre minimes, d'ailleurs, et qu'ils peuvent construire des maisons merveilleusement ouvragées et décorées pour des prix accessibles, ce qui est bien difficile chez nous... Quelle chance !

It's a really strange city Brussels. There style of German, English, Dutch, some French. There are also these international movements, such as art nouveau. I did not know there were so many elsewhere in Brussels! And these windows around the circle, which suggest some Chinese gate, show extraordinary creativity. When I think that in China or Vietnam, they have labor costs minimal, however, and they can build houses beautifully carved and decorated for affordable prices, which is difficult in we ... What luck!

The problems with houses in Brussels is that they are so close together, that one has the feeling to live in trenches.

This is the case in every city... that the houses are so close together! :lol:

Plus the gray weather makes it sometimes quite depressing...

Luckely Belgium is not so grey-weathered as you seem to think.


But well, I would rahter have a nice rowhome than living in a small appartment on the 20th floor ;)


These rowhouses are very large (and very expensive) most of them have beautifull gardens aswell...
And it's not correct that appartments on the 20th floor must be small. There is no relation between hight and size! :lol:


There are also these international movements, such as art nouveau. I did not know there were so many elsewhere in Brussels!

Strange, Brussels is really a paradise for the art nouveau and art deco lover! There has been destroyed a lot, but there is still plenty left to admire! :)

The problems with houses in Brussels is that they are so close together, that one has the feeling to live in trenches. Plus the gray weather makes it sometimes quite depressing...

How is that any different from other old city centres? And the weather here is the same as in the Netherlands, northern France & western Germany; it's not as if the clouds suddenly dissolve once they cross the border :) I'm well aware of the image that people have of this country, tho, but we get a lot more sun than people think.

It's always been sunny when I've been to Belgium! :)

^^ depends on what part of the city you live...The belle epoque housing in Brussels is great! Ofcourse there are these ugly, not well maintained rowhomes. But well, I would rahter have a nice rowhome than living in a small appartment on the 20th floor ;)


I'll take the nice rowhomes area's of brussels any time over highrise flats or dull new architecture of aappartments these days:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Brussel/Leopoldwijk/Brussel244.jpg
credit: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/member.php?u=42720



CREDIT GOES TO:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/member.php?u=53633

That's an extraordinarily pretty street. What's it called?

^^ I guess its Saint-Quentinstraat ;) but im not sure..

It's so nice in Belgium!

I made a tour through my village and I made some pictures of (remarkable) houses.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Lz1DYidI6Fg/ThBBj33UivI/AAAAAAAAAE0/iQKortPCnXg/s912/IMG_4109.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wYOkDCMHRCM/ThBBz5-bBoI/AAAAAAAAAE4/kBD_XhIwlgU/s912/IMG_4120.JPG
Two houses from the 50's- 60's.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vvE2WT4V7ps/ThBCFiUuTbI/AAAAAAAAAE8/vFqioUrpgFY/s912/IMG_4110.JPG
A more modern style.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bAYARLKOsdE/ThBDS__iqAI/AAAAAAAAAFA/BelLPUxyC_Y/s912/IMG_4112.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SAjz2oL4smY/ThBDhfWVMdI/AAAAAAAAAFE/tzIsH25GTVE/s912/IMG_4114.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Uw7RgG7aLH4/ThBDv0epo8I/AAAAAAAAAFI/SopynvByDHY/s912/IMG_4113.JPG
The two houses above are more classical, a bit cottage-like.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bMwp9P9hsdE/ThBD35a13sI/AAAAAAAAAFM/vVvcLTy0WfI/s912/IMG_4111.JPG
This are two houses in pastorie-style.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DiDau9JIkg0/ThBEDYr4CiI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/5MXrumvPeLo/s912/IMG_4115.JPG
A view at the street.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ydLEfeiROvI/ThBEPRjWPYI/AAAAAAAAAFU/NHY1UnWL254/s912/IMG_4117.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XC9bDPcFnXM/ThBETTPqr5I/AAAAAAAAAFY/vc4wILPne2U/s912/IMG_4116.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xLgC_c1dwu4/ThBHbhW7SPI/AAAAAAAAAF8/TbelRM5QJPk/s912/IMG_4130.JPG
Two houses in Spanish style.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-563DWyYrAvc/ThBGOFwWqCI/AAAAAAAAAFc/taj0GFYn4DY/s912/IMG_4122.JPG
A house that seems a little bit Californian to me.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tPaybPjjXWo/ThBGOPpeLeI/AAAAAAAAAFg/Hr568vkfA9E/s912/IMG_4118.JPG
This is an example of an old farm, wich was restored during the first half of the 20th century. These houses are becoming more and more rare.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7309WkkukKM/ThBGN5J9gDI/AAAAAAAAAFk/gRTI86JXEKc/s912/IMG_4121.JPG
A house from the 60's.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yQO2rAQy9ds/ThBGlUaPXUI/AAAAAAAAAFo/uYIbvdtQufw/s912/IMG_4124.JPG
A neighbourhood from the 60's- 70's I believe.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KpM0eJ3Q5mY/ThBG26ML2nI/AAAAAAAAAFw/gvRJi8g5hQ4/s912/IMG_4125.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QfMyMvoevzQ/ThBGyKad5_I/AAAAAAAAAFs/VublnnPvPG4/s912/IMG_4126.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-f-yzgbSSyMk/ThBHO6WQsmI/AAAAAAAAAF0/3lN_AG8JVUQ/s912/IMG_4128.JPG
Three fermette houses with,especially the second some renaissance elements like the trap-gevels.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iZ7Ur6ii9Ik/ThBHVD7Z9WI/AAAAAAAAAF4/PgRWN9Gl3q0/s912/IMG_4129.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VGoeKT0O4aQ/ThBHyMhIP1I/AAAAAAAAAGA/pdHEEThNWoM/s912/IMG_4131.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-q6429ZA4CMQ/ThBHy5bJ2YI/AAAAAAAAAGE/Edq0iaj1KnY/s912/IMG_4132.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7vNfagaZNg8/ThBIWJc9qZI/AAAAAAAAAGI/YGF5hPeW9MY/s912/IMG_4135.JPG
This house always seemed a little Suisse to me. :)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KazoP1BojqQ/ThBIcmXPwII/AAAAAAAAAGM/l1jLnR9uS7Y/s912/IMG_4139.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-UsBmhfQOoS0/ThBI1H9A4FI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/gBtAhrhuAmQ/s912/IMG_4140.JPG
A house build like a traditional farm in Flanders.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0DTDtIZD_tA/ThBI2NCJyVI/AAAAAAAAAGU/1s2sbs3OkhE/s912/IMG_4143.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PYwszjipYUU/ThBI6qVzeoI/AAAAAAAAAGY/6dSKLoz3GzA/s912/IMG_4142.JPG
A house completely covered with wooden plates.

Nice thread, issue and arguments. Fine pics too. :)

Thanks for the pics! They are good and show how the average Belgians live!