Made a trip to the east recently and was impressed with the new construction and development proposals for the Halifax area. Certainly nothing on the scale of a Vancouver or Toronto but I started making inquiries and getting very bizzare numbers for projected population, economic etc. growth for the very near future.

Can anyone confirm any numbers for the city and if the folks I spoke with were just full of too many Keiths?

Believe it or not, in relative terms the level of inner-city development in Halifax is higher than Toronto and has been pretty well comparable to Vancouver since 1996 or so. Halifax is also growing at the same rate as Vancouver overall (1.3%/year).

Most people don't know what they're talking about when it comes to reasonable growth projections, so you'll hear stuff like the city will double in size in a decade, etc. The HRM (municipality) is going by the assumption that the city will be at least 450,000 around 2020-2025. In 2001 it was 360,000 but for 2003 Statscan has set it at 380,000 with the undercount.

Thanks. Always interesting to see some growth and change, provided it happens in the right way. The downtown had changed quite a bit since I had last been back and it seems to be moving in a good direction. I hope the balance can be maintained.

Any idea what's driving the growth? Natural population increase aside, the entire province still had negative growth into the 1980's. I have to assume it's the offshore development?

It is a mix of things. Mostly it's interprovincial migration (New Brunswickers and Torontonians make up the biggest part of that), the birth rate is slightly higher than normal (cheaper and easier to raise kids here than in a lot of other cities), and about 1,500 immigrants come here every year.

Most newcomers find jobs at growing mid-sized companies or in supporting jobs in the service sector, etc. Incomes are kind of low but so is the cost of living and usually people are willing to forego a fair amount of money in order to live here. The phenomenon is similar to what is happening in BC, which continues to grow despite a fairly mediocre job market.

Nova Scotia has seen a lot of outmigration for a long time because of places like Cape Breton, which lose a lot of young people to Alberta or Ontario. Halifax tends to retain more young people and attract some from around the region.

I'd like to see Halifax become a metropolis in the same vein as Vancouver of the Atlantic. It's the unofficial capital of the region already.

I'd like to see Halifax become a metropolis in the same vein as Vancouver of the Atlantic. It's the unofficial capital of the region already. i'am not sure of Halifax is the unofficial capital of the region ... I think of moncton should be the capital, because is the center geographical of the maritimes and have more developpement in Moncton than Halifax and Moncton rejoin two differents culture (french and english people)

Moncton has more development going on than Halifax ?!?
I find that hard to believe.

Why? I dont find it hard to belive

Go on www.moncton.org and check all the stats on the city. Moncton is always higher on face to Halifax

Moncton has more development going on than Halifax ?!?
I find that hard to believe.

Moncton is on the verge of becoming the largest city in New Brunswick...

Culturally, Halifax has always been the dominant capital of the Maritimes. It doesn't matter the geographic location...Montreal's the capital of Francophone Canada, but it's in southern Québec. The population of Halifax RM is also bigger than any other city-region in the Maritimes. It's great that there are two cultures in New Brunswick, but the Francophone presence in the Maritimes as a hole outside of NB is small clusters and irrelevant to its claim of capital of a region.

^ I would say it's Charlottetown...

No, Charlettown doesnt seem right, Halifax i think is the dominant Capitol of the Maritimes.

No, Charlettown doesnt seem right, Halifax i think is the dominant Capitol of the Maritimes.

Moncton is on the verge of becoming the largest city in New Brunswick...
that's not saying much tho.. still 1/3 the size of halifax at best.

Oh please.. the whole reason why Moncton is growing is that it is able to take advantage of growing markets here much better than Saint John is (it's only a couple hours' drive away). Comparing Moncton to Halifax is like comparing Hamilton to Toronto or Quebec to Montreal.

Halifax has never formally been a regional centre and you could easily make the case for it not being one because it is not far and away the largest city here, and it only has a small percentage of the region's population. The fact is that the regional centre is here or nowhere though.

No, Charlettown doesnt seem right, Halifax i think is the dominant Capitol of the Maritimes.

Okay, Miramichi then ;)

I've never thought the regional center was anywhere but in Halifax. But if you say Moncton ,sure I'll buy that for a dollar.

Charlottetown is the birthplace of Canada. It should be the capital.

Halifax is a beautiful city (and nice size) and the one place in Atlantic Canada that I'd really like to live in and experience for awhile. Hopefully one day! Have friends in Moncton and recall it being a handsome town. Still, Halifax has that harbour!

Plus Halifax is gonna get a cfl team

Whats that about Halifax getting a CFL team. I know its been a dream forever so the whole country is represented. I think that would be fantastic!!!
In terms of regional centre evryone thinks Halifax is, I don't think there is any question. Atleast for the maritimes, I don't think you could say all of Atlantic Canada as St.John's and all of NewFoundland are different kettles of fish. Interesting to note that St.John's is growing at approx 2,000/year accordind to 2004StatsCan but Newfoundland is still shrinking by about 1000 a year.

Charlottetown is the birthplace of Canada. It should be the capital.

I agree should move the capital east. > Sydney. :)

^lol...I'd go for that, though it makes no sense. ;)

Believe it or not, in relative terms the level of inner-city development in Halifax is higher than Toronto and has been pretty well comparable to Vancouver since 1996 or so. Halifax is also growing at the same rate as Vancouver

Actually, for a long time now, Vancouver has consistently had a much higher growth rate than Halifax. Here's the proof:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/demo05b.htm

Yeah, that 0.1% in 2004 makes all the difference. ;)

What I said was based on different estimates. The infill stuff still stands.. and that's of much greater interest to me than big box stores and McMansions.

Well, it represents a difference of 12.5% - that's significant. ;)

I was in Halifax 2 1/2 years ago, and I didn't see much building going on downtown. I was in Vancouver last summer and the downtown was a beehive of activity. One small neighborhood in downtown Vancouver had more construction going on than in the entire province of NS.

That's because most of the recent developments in the Spring Garden area of Halifax were being bulit this year or last, not 2 1/2 years ago. And most of the large downtown projects are still pending approval.

You seem to like to use creative statistics.

Your own data from the other thread puts the economic behemoth that is Kitchener at 450,100 and little old Halifax at 379,800.

And like I said, most of that difference is just office parks and suburban housing developments. Urban Kitchener is far smaller than urban Halifax. Virtually all of the interesting areas worth exploring here are over 100 years old. When you came here did you go to Clayton Park?

I'm not even sure how large Kitchener was 100 years ago because it was too small to be listed. It appears in 1921 with a mere 20,000 people.

Still don't see what this has to do with anything though.

Oh, and larger scale residential development tends to be cyclical.

In around 2001/2002 there were developments like Bishop's Landing and the Waterford that finished up. After a break the current group of projects that are finishing up (The Martello, Paramount, etc.) got started later on in 2003. I don't think proposals are worth very much until construction actually begins, but now that the current crop of developments are winding down there are half a dozen major new projects going through the municipality's approvals process. The three biggest account for nearly 500 residential units and 500 hotel rooms.

Another feature of development in this city is that it is not centrally planned and concentrated in one district like in some other cities.. it's dispersed throughout the core so it's not as easy to show off.

Finally, most infill here is designed to blend in with existing buildings rather than stand out.

You seem to like to use creative statistics.

Your own data from the other thread puts the economic behemoth that is Kitchener at 450,100 and little old Halifax at 379,800.

There is a difference between the "Region of Waterloo" and the Kitchener CMA. That accounts for much of the difference in the pop. figures. I'm not using "creative statistics". If you don't like the higher figure, then complain to the Region of Waterloo - I didn't make up the numbers on their website.

The "Region of Waterloo" comprises a very modest geographical area for the tri-cities. It doesn't include Guelph, Stratford, Harrison and many other cities/towns that very close to the tri-cities.

And like I said, most of that difference is just office parks and suburban housing developments. Urban Kitchener is far smaller than urban Halifax.

That sounds like conjecture on your part, have any proof? Each of the three major cities of the Region of Waterloo are very urban, even though you won't see all that many residential highrises. In fact sprawl is not much of a problem there, and that's one big reason why it's so easy to get around by car there - traffic is not a problem.

If you want to see sprawl, check out Edmonton, then Calgary.

Virtually all of the interesting areas worth exploring here are over 100 years old. When you came here did you go to Clayton Park?

No.

I'm not even sure how large Kitchener was 100 years ago because it was too small to be listed. It appears in 1921 with a mere 20,000 people.

Still don't see what this has to do with anything though.

The point is, K/W was much smaller than Halifax only a few decades ago. For several decades now, K/W has grown much faster than Halifax, and is now significantly bigger (population). Halifax was being presented as some type of boom town. K/W (lowest unemployment rate in the country last time I checked), Barrie and Oshawa are boom towns, Halifax just doesn't qualify from a national perspective - simply outgrowing Victoria isn't enough.

There is a difference between the "Region of Waterloo" and the Kitchener CMA.

So what? If you're comparing CMAs, compare CMAs. Don't compare apples to oranges. There are 650,000 people within a one hour drive of Halifax, and Halifax is the only game in town, unlike K/W. I could play the same games.

Traffic is not much of a problem in K/W because it has dispersed employment patterns and a fairly large highway system.

The words "boom town" have not appeared once in this thread.

Is Halifax city (what used to be the city) where most of the growth is, or is it mostly in Dartmouth? When I lived there, it seemed to be Dartmouth which was expanding with newer developments, as outside the Hfx peninsula to the west there didn't seem to be much suitable land. Has this pattern changed?

A few years ago there was a huge boom in construction in Park West (northwest of the peninsula) and this is winding down but there is still construction there, with a large new pool/fitness centre in the development process, and suburban sprawl is radiating north to fill in the gaps between Clayton Park and Bedford. The eastern part of the peninsula (Downtown/Spring Garden) is where a lot of the newer(and more controversial) developments are being built/pending approval... Dartmouth is likely to be the next area to get a dose of new development, and they're running the new Bus "Rapid" Transit routes through Dartmouth so that might encourage growth as well. Plus Shannon Park will probably be re-developed sometime soon.

Clayton Park West was supposed to be finished around 2010/2015 but it's already built out. The next area is all of the land between Halifax and Bedford, not that there's much left, since Bedford South is already being built and the Hemlock Ravine park takes up a good chunk of land. There are also plans for Timberlea and Bedford itself outside of the 102.

60% of development in the HRM over the next 20 years is expected to occur in those areas. Dartmouth seems to be picking up but it isn't absorbing the same percentage of the city's development that it used to, probably because of commuting times. Dartmouth has sprawled out to the point where empty areas on the mainland are more appealing than the outer parts of Cole Harbour.

I've seen a lot of pic of Halifax and it looks like a great little city but I would love to see some of Darmouth. Does have its own true downtown? I though it would because its an older place but I could be mistaken.

Clayton Park West was supposed to be finished around 2010/2015 but it's already built out. The next area is all of the land between Halifax and Bedford, not that there's much left, since Bedford South is already being built and the Hemlock Ravine park takes up a good chunk of land. There are also plans for Timberlea and Bedford itself outside of the 102.

60% of development in the HRM over the next 20 years is expected to occur in those areas. Dartmouth seems to be picking up but it isn't absorbing the same percentage of the city's development that it used to, probably because of commuting times. Dartmouth has sprawled out to the point where empty areas on the mainland are more appealing than the outer parts of Cole Harbour.
So does this mean urban development is slowly surrounding the Bedford Basin on all sides? How close is that to reality, or will it ever happen?

It's pretty much the case today. The only big "empty" areas are one strip of land behind the Bedford Highway and the area around the Magazine Hill, which is part park and part military base.

Last night the council approved a fairly substantial development plan for the area between Dartmouth and Shearwater around Russell Lake, so it looks like Dartmouth is going to be growing a bit more. It's a pretty sprawly development though.. it was mostly shaped by "environmental concerns" so it's full of parks and "buffers", plus there are proposed big box stores. It's kind of horrendous.

Downtown Dartmouth is not spectacular but it does exist and it's actually a fairly substantial area.

Man it would be so nice if Halifax were to become a major metropolis like Vancouver, but on the Atlantic coast. What is the current growth rate for Halifax, and how does it compare to Canada's other metros?

It would be great. But unless major changes are made on a national and provincal level it won't happen anytime soon.

You seem to like to use creative statistics.

Your own data from the other thread puts the economic behemoth that is Kitchener at 450,100 and little old Halifax at 379,800.

And like I said, most of that difference is just office parks and suburban housing developments. Urban Kitchener is far smaller than urban Halifax. Virtually all of the interesting areas worth exploring here are over 100 years old. When you came here did you go to Clayton Park?

I'm not even sure how large Kitchener was 100 years ago because it was too small to be listed. It appears in 1921 with a mere 20,000 people.

Still don't see what this has to do with anything though.

Yes, I would say that K/W is becoming an "economic behemoth" ;) from the following report. Young people go to where the economic opportunities are the brightest, and K/W leads the pack. Halifax appears to be doing all right as well.


By JOHN PARTRIDGE
Friday, May 27, 2005 Updated at 6:18 AM EDT
From Friday's Globe and Mail


Being in the cellar of a 25-team league is not a happy position.

So it's no surprise that Mayor Lynn Peterson of Thunder Bay was not exactly delighted to learn yesterday that her Northern Ontario community has come dead last in a new index created by CIBC World Markets Inc. to measure changing levels of economic activity in Canada's 25 largest cities -- or census metropolitan areas (CMAs) to be more precise.

Topping the CIBCWM Metropolitan Economic Activity Index -- and beating out such higher profile and much larger growth hot spots as Toronto, Calgary and Edmonton -- were the Kitchener, Ont., area, powered by its high-technology base, and Saskatoon, which gained great traction from a nation-leading 9.2 per cent year-over-year employment gain.

Thunder Bay scored a miserable minus 3 on the index, which was compiled by CIBC senior economist Benjamin Tal, based on year-over-year changes in eight key macroeconomic variables ranging from population and employment through bankruptcy statistics to house prices. By contrast, Kitchener scored plus 11.3, and Saskatoon came in at 10.5.


"I have a concern about [the] data," Ms. Peterson said, in particular querying the population figures Mr. Tal used. But she also said that while Southern Ontario may be booming, times are tough in her neck of the woods. "I think that you'll find a lot of northern communities, unlike the boom in large urban centres, [are undergoing] an out-migration issue."

Above all, she said, the forestry industry is hurting, courtesy of the softwood lumber dispute with the United States, the high Canadian dollar and rising energy costs. "When the forestry industry is hurting, it shows."

Mr. Tal's figures reveal, among other things, that Thunder Bay's population dipped by about 0.2 per cent year over year in the first quarter, that employment declined 2.7 per cent and that although housing starts rose by nearly 40 per cent -- second highest on the index -- house sales and prices fell.

Still, in an interview, the economist emphasized that his new index measures the rate of change rather than the level of economic activity and said that the worst may already be over for Thunder Bay. Its index reading hit rock bottom at minus 4.6 six months ago, he said. "In fact, it is recovering now a little bit."

The picture was, of course, much brighter in Kitchener. "It's gratifying in the sense that it validates the kind of direction we have been trying to take here within the Kitchener CMA," Mayor Carl Zehr said.

Mr. Tal cited Kitchener's "strong and dynamic high-tech sector" as likely being "an important engine" of its performance, which reflected above average growth in population and employment, a strong resale housing market and above average improvement in business and personal bankruptcies.

Mr. Zehr concurred, citing an estimate that the Kitchener region now accounts for about one quarter of all technology start-up companies in Canada. He added that he thinks even though Kitchener has grown to be "a fairly large community," it still has the sort of strong "work ethic" more readily associated with smaller towns.

Calgary, which ranked 10th on the index with a score of plus 7.7, led in population growth with a year over year increase of about 2 per cent, just edging out Toronto, which ranked fourth overall on the index with a score of 9.2.

Meanwhile, Saint John ranked No. 1 in terms of the increase in full-time jobs' share of total employment, which Mr. Tal is using in the index to approximate improvements in labour quality. It edged out Calgary, Toronto, Montreal and Kitchener.

Trois-Rivières, Que., suffered the largest jump in business bankruptcies, while Greater Sudbury, Ont., endured the sharpest spike in consumers going bust.

Cities' pulse

The CIBC World Markets Metropolitan Economic Activity Index, developed by CIBC senior economist Benjamin Tal, is designed to capture the rate of change in economic activity in Canada's 25 largest cities based on 8 key macroeconomic variables.

"It's gratifying in the sense that it validates the kind of direction we have been trying to take here within the Kitchener CMA."

CARL ZEHR, MAYOR OF KITCHENER

"I think that you'll find a lot of northern communities, unlike the boom in large urban centres, [are undergoing] an out-migration issue."

LYNN PETERSON, MAYOR OF THUNDER BAY

CIBC's eight key macroeconomic variables: Population growth, employment growth, unemployment rate, full-time share in total employment, personal bankruptcy rate, business bankruptcy rate, housing starts and MLS housing resales.

Kitchener: 11.3

Saskatoon: 10.5

Sherbrooke: 9.7

Toronto: 9.2

Quebec City: 8.6

Winnipeg: 8.3

Sudbury: 8.2

Edmonton: 7.9

Regina: 7.9

Calgary: 7.7

Hamilton: 7.5

St. Catharines: 7.4

Montreal: 7.2

Halifax: 7.2

Vancouver: 7.0

Trois-Rivières: 6.9

Saint John: 6.6

Victoria: 6.5

London: 6.1

St. John's: 6.0

Saguenay: 5.8

Ottawa: 4.7

Kingston: 2.1

Windsor: -0.4

Thunder Bay: -3.0

SOURCE: CIBC WORLD MARKETS INC.

Actually, for a long time now, Vancouver has consistently had a much higher growth rate than Halifax. Here's the proof:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/demo05b.htmHuh? that table doesnt have anything to do with inner city growth does it? That link goes to population changes for metro areas.. metropolitan and inner city aren't the same thing

I'm not even sure how large Kitchener was 100 years ago because it was too small to be listed. It appears in 1921 with a mere 20,000 people.

According to this chart, Kitchener was over 50,000 people over 100 years ago.

code:Cmaname1 Province Pop01 Pop11 Pop21 Pop31 Pop41 Pop51 Pop61 Pop71 Pop81 Pop91 Pop2001
Toronto ON 306478 481801 690237 905738 1011603 1276298 1824481 2628043 2998947 3893046 4682897
Montreal QC 360838 586168 738210 1020018 1145282 1395400 2109509 2743208 2828349 3127242 3426350
Vancouver BC 33946 123453 183655 279989 377447 530728 790165 1082352 1268183 1602502 1986965
Ottawa - Hull ON 96104 119384 148705 170040 226290 281908 429750 602510 717978 920857 1063664
Calgary AB 4392 43704 63305 83761 93021 139105 279062 403319 592743 754033 951395
Edmonton AB 4176 31064 58851 79197 97842 173075 337568 495702 657057 839924 937845
Quebec (City) QC 90941 104554 124627 170915 224756 274827 357568 480502 576075 645550 682757
Winnipeg MN 45798 136035 194561 238281 299937 354069 475989 540262 584842 652354 671274
Hamilton ON 79452 111706 153567 199019 197732 259685 395189 498523 542095 599760 662401
London ON 37976 43600 60959 71148 91024 121516 181283 286011 283668 381522 432451
Kitchener ON 52594 62607 75266 89852 98720 126123 154864 226846 287801 356421 414284
St. Catharines - Niagara ON 62140 77592 115293 136930 158902 212599 217000 303429 304353 364552 377009
Halifax NS 74662 80257 97228 100204 98636 133931 183946 222637 277727 320501 359183
Victoria BC 28991 44498 51010 55761 75560 104303 154152 195800 233481 287897 311902
Windsor ON 12153 17829 44461 77359 123973 157672 193365 258643 246110 262075 307877
Oshawa ON 4394 7436 11940 23439 26813 41545 80918 94994 154217 240104 296298
Saskatoon SK 113 12004 25739 43291 43027 53268 95526 126449 154210 210023 225927
Regina SK 2249 30213 34432 53209 58245 71319 112141 140734 164313 191692 192800
St. John's NF 74104 90838 131814 154820 171859 172918
Sudbury ON 16103 29778 43029 58251 68548 94829 110694 155424 149923 157613 155601
Chicoutimi - Jonquiere QC 16872 23375 37578 55724 78881 115904 127196 133703 135172 160928 154938
Sherbrooke QC 18426 23211 30786 37386 42466 56711 70253 97550 117324 139194 153811
Kingston ON 20030 20810 24104 26180 33806 36870 63419 85877 114982 136401 146838
Trois-Rivieres QC 12418 19945 32992 50795 62332 72979 83659 97930 111453 136303 137507
Saint John NB 51759 53372 60486 61613 70927 78337 95563 106744 114048 124981 122678
Thunder Bay ON 11219 39496 49560 65118 66788 76197 92000 112093 121379 124427 121986
Moncton NB 9026 15906 23939 28199 32560 45268 57982 70274 98354 106503 117727

^^^
Important to note for metro London. It shows it had a decrease in metro population for a few years. Well, it didn't.
St.Thomas was once included in the metro but then statscan took it out so it looks like the metro lost but it was a change in the metro boundary.
They later put St.Thomas back into metro London and it is still there.
I have no idea at all as to why statscan took it out in the first place.

Plus Halifax is gonna get a cfl team

Yeah I cant wait to Atlantic tocuhdown this year when the ottawa renegade play Montreal . ER sorry ottawa is out of business for this year . Ok sheveport vs. the concorde of Montreal . Darn that does work either LOLOLOLOLOL

You know, I've never once heard you say anything positive about anything. Just thought I'd mention

For the poster who was inquiring about Dartmouth -- it seems to be a perpetual underachiever. There is plenty of empty or ripe-for-redevelopment land relatively close to the harbor, yet it continues to languish. I see several reasons: there is nothing in the way of a vibrant downtown that people would want to spend time in, so there is a minimal sense of community (although one could say the same for Clayton Park, which continues to boom); aside from MicMac Mall, there is limited shopping compared to Halifax (though when Dartmouth Crossing comes online some of that will change); and what I think is the biggest impediment, the natural problem of being on the wrong side of the harbor. You can say there are 2 bridges and a ferry, so what's the problem? But living in Dartmouth, I can tell you that the barrier remains huge, both physically and psychologically. If you work in Halifax, it is a pain to get there and back, and if you want to get to somewhere like Bayers Lake it is very difficult. I don't know what the solution is either, but there needs to be better/faster cross-harbour options for people-moving before Dartmouth can take off.

great to see a study by an economist working for a company that had it's origins in Halifax. The CIBC was a bank started by Samual Cunard of Cunard shipping fame.
jim jones

Ps. Pitty that after Samual's offspring were finally not available for sucession in the early part of the 20th century that British Management took a perfectly vertically intergrated maritime company and reduced to been eventually sold to Carnival Corporation owned by Micky Arison of Miami,Florida

Atleast other maritime families have learned how to use Samual Cunards lessons
on vertical intergration to get effect. The Irving's, The Sobeys and the McKains.

A big problem with Dartmouth is that the locals seem to insist that nothing but townhouses get built downtown. There are several weedy lots in Dartmouth owned by absentee landlords who basically insist on building highrises (some were promised that it would be permitted in the 60's and 70's). The end result is a neighbourhood with few residents that can't support anything interesting.

Portland Street is slowly being improved and might become fairly decent, although I think that progress could be better if new development tailored to actual demand were encouraged. Maybe the marine slips development will get the ball rolling, if it is actually approved.

A big problem with Dartmouth is that the locals seem to insist that nothing but townhouses get built downtown. There are several weedy lots in Dartmouth owned by absentee landlords who basically insist on building highrises (some were promised that it would be permitted in the 60's and 70's). The end result is a neighbourhood with few residents that can't support anything interesting.

Portland Street is slowly being improved and might become fairly decent, although I think that progress could be better if new development tailored to actual demand were encouraged. Maybe the marine slips development will get the ball rolling, if it is actually approved.


Would you include alderney gate with something they do not support? Considering the money that has been spent there you would think people would want to live in the general area.

The problem I see with Development in Halifax/Dartmouth are a couple of things. First You cant make a silk purse out fo a sows ear so when someone is putting up money to develope property you let then go at it. The midtown tavern is a perfect example where historic groups are telling an owner of a 1920's to 1940's building what to do or not do. Yet during the G7 summit the very same building just had to have a so called Modern historical facelift to dolly up that building.
I have yet to understand what New England architectual elements from the 1800 have to do with a 1920-1940's builidng. While that building is now a cross between architectural styles ,eras an regionals there is no longer a need for preserving a piece of so called history.
As far as the view plan debate from citidel hill that debate is pointless as the vast majority is blocked anyways.
If the owners of a property want to redevelope then they should unless you have a case of a birthplace of a historical figure or some event that took place at the site.
I dont think anything ever took place at a 1960s era Texaco multi level parkade to justify a public examination on the grounds of history or a viewplan from the hill. A public hearing that takes place while the special interest group of 30 people to try to stall a 150 million dollar private development while THe Commonwealth games /CFL lobby group have the who are asking for a blank cheque have the privalage of IN Camera closed door meetings. The wrong message is being sent to private developers . We love your money and want it to spend it on the worst business venture we can possibly find. a business Ventures niether Banks or venture capitalists will not touch. We should go after Ted Turners privately funded games but of course those are no longer available as Ted lost enough money there.

jim jones

Alderney Gate is an example of what I was talking about. It is (along with Alderney Landing) an absolute ghost town, a disaster area of public money spent on a development to revitalize an area that simply does not work. Aside from the govt offices in Alderney there would be nothing there. You get a few ferry commuters passing thru morning and evening and that's it. It's sad that the downtown really has nothing to offer but until there is enough residential space in the area to justify a commercial base of some size I think it will remain a disaster.

What's the difference between Alderney Gate and Alderney Landing?

I think Alderney Landing is just the plaza outside Alderney Gate.

Alderney Gate is an example of what I was talking about. It is (along with Alderney Landing) an absolute ghost town, a disaster area of public money spent on a development to revitalize an area that simply does not work. Aside from the govt offices in Alderney there would be nothing there. You get a few ferry commuters passing thru morning and evening and that's it. It's sad that the downtown really has nothing to offer but until there is enough residential space in the area to justify a commercial base of some size I think it will remain a disaster.

See this is why Kings Wharf would be a fantastic development for the area. I can see that being the kick start that the downtown needs. You never know, at this rate these developers may try for building in Dartmouth instead of going through the opposition that goes with proposing in downtown Halifax.

Alderney Gate failed because it was a public development that artificially added amenities that the area couldn't really support. Libraries are fine but they are not one of the fundamentals that make an area desirable to live in. Similarly, offices (and government offices in particular) tend to bring very little to an area outside of the 9-5 time period. That is why areas with offices should also generally have residences.

If you simply look at a satellite picture of Dartmouth on Google Maps you'll see that there are 6-8 major parking lots in a very small area, plus the downtown area is cut off by large parks that are out of scale with the area (e.g. "urban wilderness park"- great place to be mugged!). They're almost always empty but of course it's extremely hard to get rid of them, as we've seen with the Brightwood story.

The other thing impeding progress in Dartmouth that you don't realize until you've been there a while is that traffic patterns are totally screwy. There is no straightforward way to get around anywhere in the older part of the city -- Wyse terminates at Alderney and Windmill, Woodland terminates at Victoria, which in turn becomes a 1-lane cartpath heading to downtown. Other streets are equally bad. The city needs a master roadway plan implemented ASAP.

I think Alderney Landing is just the plaza outside Alderney Gate.
Thanks

Also on Dartmouth; what's with that large empty piece of land to the north of the Macdonald toll plaza (see google earth)? Seems like prime real estate, especially for high-rises (because of the good bridge view). Nimbys? Weird zoning rules?

Thanks

Also on Dartmouth; what's with that large empty piece of land to the north of the Macdonald toll plaza (see google earth)? Seems like prime real estate, especially for high-rises (because of the good bridge view). Nimbys? Weird zoning rules?

If it's the large plot between the strip mall next to the bridge and the Tim Horton's, it is the site of the old Halliday Craftsmen building supply store in the 1960s. They disappeared decades ago and the building was torn down just a few years back. It is owned by Landmark Properties, one of the Keating interests. Word was that they were looking into another strip mall/gas station/convenience store development. Neighborhood rumor for a time was that Superstore or Sobeys were interested, but that has died down and I don't think the lot is big enough for them anyway.

It's no big secret that Portland st. downtown at one point was the place to be. Dartmouth's downtown has a lot of neat character and I'd love to see it thrive again.

As important as it was to build bridges spanning the harbour, it seems that so many Dartmouthians lost their sense of individuality. I think that a revitalisation of downtown Dartmouth would take a serious reversion in the mentalitly of Dartmouth residents, perhaps HRM residents alike.

It's no big secret that Portland st. downtown at one point was the place to be. Dartmouth's downtown has a lot of neat character and I'd love to see it thrive again.

As important as it was to build bridges spanning the harbour, it seems that so many Dartmouthians lost their sense of individuality. I think that a revitalisation of downtown Dartmouth would take a serious reversion in the mentalitly of Dartmouth residents, perhaps HRM residents alike.


The thing is in north america it is very very hard to get downtowns to be sucessful in the age of big box stores and suburban living. In europe you really dont see that as much and downtowns seem to be busy places. Metro Halifax the malls and then chain lake killed that.

With the amount of money spent on redevelopment from the taxpayer in that area it just goes to show that private developers do it the best.

Jim Jones

Yes, Dartmouth has very strange roads. The downtown is basically just what the town of Dartmouth was circa 1940, not any kind of natural centre for everything on that side of the harbour that is easy to get to. Once the MacDonald bridge was built it grew tremendously and the new development was haphazard.

In europe you really dont see that as much and downtowns seem to be busy places. Metro Halifax the malls and then chain lake killed that.

People say this all the time because it's such a common cliché but it's not all that true in the case of Halifax. Some types of retailers have left the downtown area (e.g. chain department stores) but different kinds of retailers that suit the tastes of the many people who frequent the downtown today remain. The fact is that the downtown is busier now than it was 10 or 20 years ago and is a whole lot bigger than it was in the 50's or 60's. I've never seen any picture of Barrington from that golden age that looked as busy as Spring Garden Road does regularly in 2006, so I don't really buy that things are so bad. There are problems that need to be fixed but the same old crap about how malls and big boxes killed the downtown that was thought up mostly for rust belt towns is not hugely applicable.

Some types of retailers have left the downtown area (e.g. chain department stores) but different kinds of retailers that suit the tastes of the many people who frequent the downtown today remain. The fact is that the downtown is busier now than it was 10 or 20 years ago and is a whole lot bigger than it was in the 50's or 60's. I've never seen any picture of Barrington from that golden age that looked as busy as Spring Garden Road does regularly in 2006, so I don't really buy that things are so bad. There are problems that need to be fixed but the same old crap about how malls and big boxes killed the downtown that was thought up mostly for rust belt towns is not hugely applicable.

I agree. I've seen some not-so-happening downtowns in North America but I really think Halifax is doing well. Going to university right off Spring Garden, I saw it busy year-round, especially in the summer of course.

I guess the universities in the area do contribute in large part, though. At any rate, I think with a few nice well-placed street front shops/attractions would go a long way for Dartmouth.

Definitely things have changed since the 60s and not everything works downtown. Sure, indoor malls (at least in Halifax) are no longer the in thing for downtown but cafes, restaurants, drinking establishments and specialty stores (esp. in the summer) seem to be doing extremely well!

I cannot remember what thread it is , but what ever happend to that Tower project that someone wanted us to Write to the city over ? If I remember correctly the " Heritage organization " were trying to squash it .

I cannot remember what thread it is , but what ever happend to that Tower project that someone wanted us to Write to the city over ? If I remember correctly the " Heritage organization " were trying to squash it .
The United Gulf/Texpark towers? City council approved them but four different heritage organizations appealed it to the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board. Chances are the project will go through anyway. Here's the tower's website:
http://www.unitedgulf.ca/

woot, Im in one of those pictures too :)

Some of the posts I 've read heree, and I don't want to sounds like a jerk, but I'm going to anyways, are a little convoluted. Halifax was always the political capitol of the region, up until the early 1800's when New Brunswick, and PEI became their own colonies. Secondly Charlettown was not the birth place of Canada. It would have been the birth place of and Atlantic Union, be called Acadia, or Nova Scotia whatever. It was intended to join the Atlantic colonies, but it was crashed by the Canadians who had alot alot alot alot of champagne, to get us all drunk and agree to their twisted idea of confederation, where we took the shortest end of the stick. It was our economy that paid for the CPR, until the federal government ran out of money and left us kind of floating. Finally, Halifax IS the economic centre of the region. No matter how much Moncton, or Saint John, or Charlettown tries to assert themselves, the money in Halifax is enough to shut them up quite quickly, when push comes to shove. The future of the Atlantic region is in Halifax becoming a major player in the countrys economy. New Brunswick has got to stop fighting Nova Scotia, and that goes the same with PEI. NFLD... well they need to be their own, they've got Quebec constantly trying to screw them in Labrador... look at the original Churchill Falls deal in the 70's. I digress, Halifax is, and will always be the centre of culture, entertainment, and money for the Atlantic region, why not make it better.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Cliff

^ ???

Sorry, I didn't quite get to the last page, and I was irked by alot of what I read. After posting my two cents, I had a chance to see how it fit with the rest of the conv. and yea... it doesn't quite fit. Sorry I like to smoke grass!!

Then you'll fit in here just great!

Yes, Dartmouth has very strange roads. The downtown is basically just what the town of Dartmouth was circa 1940, not any kind of natural centre for everything on that side of the harbour that is easy to get to. Once the MacDonald bridge was built it grew tremendously and the new development was haphazard.


Yeah, I think that's really the problem. I lived in Dtm for three years about 5 years ago, and I never really got into it. Downtown isn't a natural centre to the city, and major road, highways, and settlement patterns don't really congregate toward it (like in Moncton). The way the geography is broken up by the lakes is partly to blame for this. The way downtown is nestled off on it own means that people have to make a specific effort to go there, and since there isn't a lot of reason to do that, it doesn't happen. The problem is that it won't happen until people do start going there more. Kind of a catch 22.

The Alderney Gate complex is nice, but it seems to be in a vacuum, rather than an extension or addition to the area in which it's located. It was the place in downtown I ever went, and I left the area as soon as I was done.

Any updates on status of United Gulf/Texpark towers? The picture looks awesome to me...


"A leading university impacts the community in several ways: by adding to the intellectual capital of that community, by strengthening the workforce, by enriching the community’s artistic and cultural environment, by attracting research dollars that are spent in the community, by sharing practical knowledge with the business and technology sectors, by improving public and private education, and by providing a physically attractive environment that becomes an asset to the community. " --David Daniel

Talking about HFX projects, imho, there is synergy that HFX can achieve with DAL and SMU for a greater future.

Any updates on status of United Gulf/Texpark towers?

I think I read somewhere that the review board was going to have another public hearing sometime soon.