I have ever heard that Taiwan is seeking the way to be one of the ASEAN
members. But i am not sure if it's a real fact.

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea.
Taiwan can be the member of ASEAN?

In geographically
Taiwan is not situated in the area of south East Asia Region
How could she be eligibled as number??

Yes geographically and politically can't be part of ASEAN unfortunatly.

Taiwan is located in SEA.

really? its wants to be part of ASEAN???....

hmm.. iIf not for the Aboriginal Austronesian tribes, Taiwan is almost all ethnically Chinese, plus its economy is doing really well, so one could argue that it shouldnt really join ASEAN... but on the other hand; countries with OK economies like Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei Darussalam are part of ASEAN; and geographically it IS Southeast Asia, so one can argue in favour.. in the end its whatever the Taiwanese want.. but i have a Taiwanese friend who doesnt consider Taiwan to be in Southeast Asia: maybe its a common view in Taiwan...

I think it(Taiwan) is geograpically more likely to be on South east Asia than Eastern Asia or North Eastern Asia.

As we see it in a map, Taiwan is really close to philpine. Vietnam is located
more northernly than Taiwan and Cambodia too.

The evidence Taiwan is closer to SEA is that there is no winter in Taiwan.
Eastern Asia has all cold winter.

So i think Taiwan is geographically located in SEA so it can surely be one of
ASEAN member.

I think it(Taiwan) The evidence Taiwan is closer to SEA is that there is no winter in Taiwan.
Eastern Asia has all cold winter.

In taiwan we have winter season
Cold and wet in the central part of mountain region even having snow occasionally

Also you may be felt very cold in Taipei too during the period of time at Lunar New year :)

Taiwan is located in SEA.

Reference by CIA-The World Factbook

Geography Taiwan Top of Page

Location:
Eastern Asia, islands bordering the East China Sea, Philippine Sea, South China Sea, and Taiwan Strait, north of the Philippines, off the southeastern coast of China

Geographic coordinates:
23 30 N, 121 00 E

CIA-Taiwan (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tw.html) :)

Taiwan as part of "China" (not PRC or ROC) is located in East Asia. However, if you want to look at Taiwan ROC as an independent nation which it is, then it's located in Southeast Asia.

People must realize that because China is so big, different parts of it belong to different regions. China covers Northeast Asia, Central Asia, East Asia, and Southeast Asia. However, since China is a single economical and political entity, it is considered to be East Asian.

As a Taiwanese-Chinese, I don't see how Taiwan can reall benefit from being an ASEAN member. It is doing just fine without being one. I would rather see Taiwan resolve its issues with mainland China first. Taiwan has much more business potential with mainland China considering both sides speak the same language and come from the same cultural background, unless the TI-supporting DPP gets its way :bash:

Strange....how come everyone appears to be clamouring to be part of ASEAN....first there was the Indo-China countries, which ok...makes some sense, but then later Australia wants in too, and now Taiwan?

Can we grap Hong Kong as well? :D

ESTABLISHMENT AND MEMBERSHIP


The Association of Southeast Asian Nations or ASEAN was established on 8 August 1967 in Bangkok by the five original Member Countries, namely, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, and Thailand. Brunei Darussalam joined on 8 January 1984, Vietnam on 28 July 1995, Laos and Myanmar on 23 July 1997, and Cambodia on 30 April 1999.


:bash:
The ASEAN region has a population of about 500 million, a total area of 4.5 million square kilometers, a combined gross domestic product of US$737 billion, and a total trade of US$ 720 billion.



OBJECTIVES


The ASEAN Declaration states that the aims and purposes of the Association are: (i) to accelerate the economic growth, social progress and cultural development in the region through joint endeavours in the spirit of equality and partnership in order to strengthen the foundation for a prosperous and peaceful community of Southeast Asian nations, and (ii) to promote regional peace and stability through abiding respect for justice and the rule of law in the relationship among countries in the region and adherence to the principles of the United Nations Charter.



In 1995, the ASEAN Heads of States and Government re-affirmed that “Cooperative peace and shared prosperity shall be the fundamental goals of ASEAN.”



:runaway: FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES

The Treaty of Amity and Cooperation (TAC) in Southeast Asia, signed at the First ASEAN Summit on 24 February 1976, declared that in their relations with one another, the High Contracting Parties should be guided by the following fundamental principles:

Mutual respect for the independence, sovereignty, equality, territorial integrity, and national identity of all nations;
The right of every State to lead its national existence free from external interference, subversion or coercion;
Non-interference in the internal affairs of one another;
Settlement of differences or disputes by peaceful manner;
Renunciation of the threat or use of force; and
Effective cooperation among themselves.

Not so soon.The current SEA countries need to do some catch ups before this materializes.Singapore is ok for now but Brunei,Indonesia,Malaysia,Thailand needs at least 8-10 years to become an industrialized nation to be on par with Taiwan.At that time maybe we can use a single currency as well.

Laos isnt exactly on par with Singapore either when it was admitted into ASEAN...

Well the situation is slightly different for Taiwan though.It's not that ASEAN does not want to receive Taiwan,we are glad to actually but instead the Taiwanese will be thinking twice whether they should join us when they have already achieve the newly industrialized nation status.I know Singapore is on par with them but we need to see it as a whole picture here..It's very similar to a situation whereby a girl who is working as a doctor is asked to marry some blue collared working man.How would she feel?

Perhaps, but do note that ASEAN in essense is still very much a geographical entity. The then PM of Malaysia, Dr. Mahathair, has always envisioned an ASEAN comprising what is geographically accepted as "South East Asia," the region of which actualy excludes Taiwan. It is not often that Taiwan pops up in people's imagination when they are talking about Southeast Asia.

Therefore, it was more due to geography then anything else that the indo-china states were admitted, arguably prematurely considering their economic and, for Myanmar, political status, an issue which run into problems with the EU. Would ASEAN nations stand by Taiwan should the later ask for admittion, something which is bound to incur the utmost wrath of China and irritate the US?

ASEA may call itself an economical grouping, but in a sense, it is more like an attempt to bring together a region to counter the pressure on 3 sides by the Chinese, Indian and Australian strongholds. It is therefore ironic that some of these sources of pressue now want to be IN the club! :D

When China becomes a superpower one day and Taiwan successfully becomes a member of ASEAN it's a matter of time S.Korea and Japan will follow suit.The merging the northern and southern East Asian countries into one union is a great way to counter the emerging giants.However I don't know whether I can live that long to see that happen.:)

It won't likely happen until developing countries like Indonesia,Malaysia and Thailand achieve industrialized status to fit in.For now whether Taiwan would get involved doesn't make much of a difference.Besides,it may even burden them to some extend to help out the slower developing countries.However they are far sighted though to see this coming ahead of them.It's indeed a good idea after all.

Oh...and it wont exactly happen either until Taiwan becomes an independent country and fully recognised by the UN and her member states....including China....

It is a stupid question for that don't you think Taiwan would be able as becoming to one of the fundamental member since ASEAN was established on 8 August 1967 if she was being want to be?

Hence, the willingness of initiative, defined of geographically and reality of recognition are the most essential element for those to decided

Don't waste time to building the castle in the air :) :) :)

I wonder whether your heart is still left in BKK....:D

Taiwan cannot be the member of ASEAN due to the pressure of China political reason.

Taiwan's economic power is not matched with ASEAN countries also.
There is no country in ASEAN which can be matched with Taiwan economically.

Taiwan had better try to be a observer of ASEAN, but because China is
one of them, it is also hard to be too.

Taiwan has politically so many disadvantages,,

Taiwan's economy is , i think, very matchable with Singapore or Thailand.
Overally, Taiwan economy is far ahead Singapore and Thailand ,but, at least
if Taiwan + Singapre + Thailand get combined, Total GDP of 3 countries
is = Taiwan - 285 billion$ + Singapore - 85 billion$ + Thailand -145 billion$
= total of 515 billion$

Taiwan's mother-borad industry is in the world - class.
Taiwan move its factories to ASEAN, and there more jobs will come up
and Taiwan companies will get profits - the WIN - WIN situation

There is no country in ASEAN who can move its fatories to other countries or who has international companies which can lnvest in huge scale on other developing countries.

In this case, Taiwan can be the second thought !!

of course, Taiwan will be leading ASEAN .
all situation will be spining based on Taiwan if taiwan being one of ASEAN

Would you mind not posting 3 posts in a row, and basically spreading yr strange agenda all over?

There is no country in ASEAN who can move its fatories to other countries or who has international companies which can lnvest in huge scale on other developing countries.


No country in ASEAN??? Consider the articles below.........

Business Times - 29 Jun 2004

JOHOR BARU
S'pore is M'sia's top investor this year: Rafidah

SINGAPORE has emerged as the largest foreign investor in Malaysia this year, according to figures released by Malaysian Trade Minister Rafidah Aziz yesterday.

At a press conference here, she said Singapore moved to the top of the list for the first four months this year, in terms of value. For all of last year, Singapore was the fifth largest investor in Malaysia.

Ms Rafidah will be leading a mission to Singapore next month and host a seminar for businessmen. She said the Malaysian Cabinet had approved a proposal to expand a feasibility fund for companies in the two countries to explore bilateral opportunities, to include joint promotions and marketing in third countries.

She said the two nations will sign an agreement to amend the existing RM5 million (S$2.25 million) Feasibility Study Fund that was launched in the early 1990s and jointly contributed to by both countries.

'The fund was to be used by any company in both countries to do business feasibility studies and we found that for that purpose alone, they were not taken up except by one Malaysian company, Selangor Pewter, worth RM300,000.

'The Singapore Manufacturers Association has suggested that we expand the terms of reference to include joint promotion or joint missions by Singapore and Malaysian companies to third countries,' she said.

Ms Rafidah said the Malaysian Cabinet had at its last meeting agreed to amend and expand the scope of the feasibility fund.

She said Singapore businessmen had signalled their interest in Malaysia during the visit of Singapore's Minister for Trade and Industry George Yeo and a business delegation to Malaysia last month.

'We hope to create an awareness among some entrepreneurs who have not yet located offshore from Singapore to place their operations in Malaysia instead of looking at other countries,' she said. - Bernama

Copyright © 2004 Singapore Press Holdings Ltd. All rights reserved.

JULY 10, 2004
S'pore now 3rd largest investor in India
The Republic has climbed from eighth in 2002 and has a $2.2b investment, while Indian firms flock to start plants here

By Narendra Aggarwal

IN FURTHER signs of rapidly growing business relations with India, Singapore has shot up the ranks to become the third largest foreign investor in the country, while several Indian firms are looking to set up manufacturing plants here.

New Indian government data on foreign investments in the country for the first four months of this year shows that Singapore now ranks behind only Mauritius and the United States.

That is a dramatic rise from 2002 when Singapore was the eighth largest foreign investor in India and from last year, when it was the sixth largest.

'The rise in Singapore's rank as an investor in India paints a dramatic picture,' said Minister of State (Trade and Industry and Foreign Affairs) Raymond Lim, in his address at the India Calling summit here yesterday.

'What began as a trickle has now turned into a tide. Singapore's direct investments in India stand at about $2.2 billion,' he told a gathering of more than 500 Indian businessmen, half of whom travelled from India, Britain, the US, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Indonesia and elsewhere.

The overwhelming response to the two-day summit hosted by the Mumbai-based Indian Merchants' Chamber, the country's oldest business chamber, and the Singapore Indian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, surprised the organisers.

They said that a few hundred foreign and local businessmen had to be turned away.

Mr Lim said that while Singapore companies are increasing their investments in India, its own manufacturers are growing in competitiveness and increasingly looking to expand abroad.

'The Economic Development Board reports that a number of Indian manufacturers are conducting feasibility studies on the possibility of setting up manufacturing plants in Singapore,' he said.

Bilcare, an Indian pharmaceutical packaging company, has committed $25 million to a plant here.

'It is the first major Indian manufacturing company to set up a plant here. Bilcare will use Singapore as its Asia-Pacific base for the manufacture of pharmaceutical packaging, and will also set up an R&D centre in Singapore to develop new packaging products.'

The news of these developments came as Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong was visiting India, partly to strengthen business and investment links.

The two countries are currently negotiating a comprehensive free trade agreement.

Urging non-resident Indians to set up shop in Singapore, Mr Lim said that the Republic offered a compelling proposition through capital, connectivity, capabilities and comfort.

Already, some 150 Indian companies a year are setting up operations in the Republic. 'There are already 1,500 Indian companies based in Singapore.'

Their numbers had been rising by about 10 per cent annually, and they now were the fourth-largest commercial community in Singapore.

At a gala dinner last night for the India Calling summit, Acting Minister for Education Tharman Shanmugaratnam said Singapore's ties with India have never been warmer.

'We will continue to reach out to Indian companies and position Singapore as a natural conduit between India and the world,' he said.

Copyright @ 2004 Singapore Press Holdings. All rights reserved.

14 Feb 2004
China-S'pore business ties blooming

Economic links between Singapore and China are moving closer and closer, and are set to deepen further this year, a senior Chinese official has said. Despite the Sars outbreak, with its epicentre in southern China, Singapore companies invested US$2.7 bil on the mainland last year, up 15% from US$2.34 bil the previous year, he disclosed. This made the Republic the sixth-biggest investor there.

Actual cumulative foreign direct investment (FDI) by Singapore companies in China is now US$21.6 bil. Two-way trade is also on the growth path, up a robust 37% at US$19.3 bil last year.

http://www.contactsingapore.org.sg/news_banking_article3.shtml

And have you heard of Creative Technology who's famous for the Sound Blaster sound card??? It's actually has factories in Malaysia and China and has a worldwide network...

Have you also heard of Parkson Department Store??? It's from Malaysia and you could find it in the malls of Shanghai now???

The list can go on but what I want to say is that the countries in ASEAN are also busy establishing their markets outside their country. And there are certainly international brands that came from countries of ASEAN........Enough said.

Taiwan's economy is , i think, very matchable with Singapore or Thailand.
Overally, Taiwan economy is far ahead Singapore and Thailand ,but, at least
if Taiwan + Singapre + Thailand get combined, Total GDP of 3 countries
is = Taiwan - 285 billion$ + Singapore - 85 billion$ + Thailand -145 billion$
= total of 515 billion$

Taiwan's mother-borad industry is in the world - class.
Taiwan move its factories to ASEAN, and there more jobs will come up
and Taiwan companies will get profits - the WIN - WIN situation

There is no country in ASEAN who can move its fatories to other countries or who has international companies which can lnvest in huge scale on other developing countries.

In this case, Taiwan can be the second thought !!
come on, so many companies from Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore invest overseas. For example, CP group (Thai) is one of the largest investors in China. and what about DBS group (Singapore)? it's the fourth largest bank in Hong Kong (i believe) ...and etc.
i would say both sides would get benefit if Taiwan really joins.

Another enchanting issue of FREE TRADE topic

Cool and Hot :bash:

singapore is unexpectly very outstanding .

It was amazing. !!

I wonder whether your heart is still left in BKK....:D
:runaway:
Soul and Spirit remained but heart is left :) he he~~~~~~~

The N in ASEAN stands for Nation, something that Taiwan officially isn't. If it wants to join for any reason (though I don't really see why), then it should clear up that mess first.

But to begin with, ASEAN is painfully slow in dealing with things. Why does everyone all of a sudden want in? The last I heard, everyone was looking at China.

ASEAN is Association of South East Asia Nations.

Taiwan is not in SEA.

Not so soon.The current SEA countries need to do some catch ups before this materializes.Singapore is ok for now but Brunei,Indonesia,Malaysia,Thailand needs at least 8-10 years to become an industrialized nation to be on par with Taiwan.At that time maybe we can use a single currency as well.
- It will take less than 5 years for Thailand to be on par with Taiwan. Thailand may become 1st world country in 2020-FY before Taiwan.

come on, so many companies from Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore invest overseas. For example, CP group (Thai) is one of the largest investors in China. and what about DBS group (Singapore)? it's the fourth largest bank in Hong Kong (i believe) ...and etc.
i would say both sides would get benefit if Taiwan really joins.


- Not only CP group (Thai) is one of the largest investors in China, it is the single largest investors in China. The company registration # is 0001. CP group Hong Kong subsidary is 18th largest company in Hong Kong (http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/asiaweek1000.2000/c_hk.html)

CP group Indonesia subsidary is also 18th largest company in Indonesia (http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/asiaweek1000.2000/c_indonesia.html)

But to begin with, ASEAN is painfully slow in dealing with things. Why does everyone all of a sudden want in? The last I heard, everyone was looking at China.
Precisely!!! I am still wondering if we are NATO, G8 or something! :D

Actually, Whole ASEAN countries power is same as one Australia's power.
That's sad for ASEAN now :sleepy:

Taiwan is located in SEA.
More East Asia than SE.

Precisely!!! I am still wondering if we are NATO, G8 or something! :D

:D

Come one.... SEA stand for SOUTH EAST ASIA ok.! nothing much to do with Taiwan.

SEA is Thailand, Malaysia, Myanmar, Indoneisia and the Philippines. Taiwan is classified as East Asia.

- It will take less than 5 years for Thailand to be on par with Taiwan. Thailand may become 1st world country in 2020-FY before Taiwan.

It is possible for Thailand to become developed country in 2020 but would you mind to explain further in term of what that Thailand will be on par with Taiwan in LESS than 5 years. I am not trying to degrade Thailand but I am sceptical about it. :weirdo:

I think Taiwan is located near EAST SOUTH asia.
At least, Taiwan is not North EAST ASIs, like Mongolia and S.N Korea and so on

North East Asia = Korea , Mongolia ,and Japan

China is located though almost parts of Asia, like Russia (EU+Asia)

South East Asia = Taiwan , Hongkong
South Asian = India, Parkistan
SEA countries = Vietnam, Philpine , Indonesia , Malaysia ,thailand , Singapore , East timor something like that.

Russia should be considered Asia, since most of it is in Asia.

I thought ASEAN already have ASEAN 3+ which are SEA countries + China, South Korea and Japan.



cheers

ASEAN nations:

Malaysia
Singapore
Brunei
Indonesia
Cambodia
Vietnam
Laos
Myanmar
Thailand
Phllippines

Timor Leste is not yet an ASEAN member.Wonder why.

Russia is considered European because of its cultural and linguistic origin. It doesn't matter that most of Russian land is in Asia as it was not conquered until around last century or so.

Geographically, Russia is considered to be "Eurasian".

If anything, overall, Russia is more European than Asian.

As for Taiwan, it is located in Southeast Asia if it stands alone. However, when you see Taiwan as part of "China" (not PRC or ROC but "Middle Kingdom"), Taiwan is part of East Asia, where China is located although in reality, China covers: East Asia, Northeast Asia, North Asia, Central Asia, and Southeast Asia.

Taiwan is East Asia, not SEA.

This is like saying Australia is in SEA.

Taiwan is East Asia, not SEA.

This is like saying Australia is in SEA.
Please show me a geographical map of Southeast Asia.

---

As I've said before, it depends on your political view. Taiwan as part of China is obviously East Asia as that's where China is catagorized to. However, Taiwan, the island, by itself, belongs to the Southeast Asian region as China covers many parts of Asia, including Southeast Asia.

http://www.o-21.org/projects/maps/images/southeastasia.gif

http://hwebb.freeshell.org/asiase.gif

Note that both of these maps indicate Taiwan as part of Southeast Asia.

http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0215466/southeast-asia.gif

Of course there are also many maps like this that indicate Taiwan is part of East Asia as it is part of China.

Let us to break down into 2 aspects to see how Asia was to be re-definding recently

One we called Economically system in Asia and other, geographically Nations in the Asia

No wonder how all surrounding Nations in the Asia rim, even Oceania & North East are wanna in parts of ASEAN to gazing to Big cake :)


:cucumber: :cucumber: :cucumber:

http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0112/011215.gif
Southeast Asia, from Southeast Asia in the New World Order, edited by David Wurfel and Bruce Burton

:D

Just added one reminder, in accordance with the reference of the Asia Factbook of CIA, preciously thread on Page I to see Taiwan wherein

Taiwan is located at Eastern Asia

Actually the location would be more likely to be defineded in geographically instead of politically :)

At least, the Taiwanese government and news media call ourselves "one of the SEA countries" more often than "one of the EA countries".

:hammer: How wonder not be found of any officially documentary from Gov't whether of Taiwan Geographical is

地理

中華民國現行管轄土地範圍包括台灣地區及金馬地區。台灣地區包括台灣本島、澎湖群島、綠島、蘭嶼以及釣魚台列嶼等島嶼，面積約36,000平方公里。台灣又名福爾摩沙 ( Formosa ) ，位居中國大陸東南外海約160公里處，西隔台灣海峽與福建省相望。台灣本島南北縱長394公里，東西最大寬處約144公里。中央山脈縱列於中央偏東，平原分布西部，東部山脈陡立，瀕臨太平洋，境內多山，森林資源豐富，惟可耕面積僅占1/4。台灣本島海岸線1,240公里，因較平直，天然良港稀少，大小河川152條，均極短促，水力蘊藏豐富。總括而言，台灣概分為中央山脈、火山、丘陵、台地以及海岸平原、盆地五大部分。金馬地區靠居福建省外海，面積約182平方公里。

WWW.GOV.TW

People and Geography


The territory under our government’s effective control includes Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen, and Matsu, as well as the Pratas and Spratly islands, with a total land area of 36,179 sq km.

The population of the Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu areas exceeded 22.52 million as of December 2002. Han people form the largest ethnic group in Taiwan, making up roughly 98 percent of the population, while the 11 tribes of indigenous inhabitants and other ethic minorities comprise the other 2%.

Taiwan is an island folding and rising right out of the ocean, formed by the collision of the Eurasian Plate and the Philippine Plate. In terms of topography, hills and mountains cover the largest area of the island, with the Coastal Range, the Central Range, the Mount Snow Range, the Mount Jade Range and the Mount Ali Range all spreading from east to west. The Central Range constitutes the main body of the island, serving as a major watershed for rivers and streams in the east and west. The main peak of the Mount Jade Range, towering 3,952 meters above sea level, is the island’s tallest peak. To the west of the Mount Ali Range, the topography descends gradually into basins and plains, which are, from north to south respectively, the Taipei Basin, the Tao-Chu-Miao Terrace, the Taichung Basin, the Chianan Plain and the Pingtung Plain.


http://www.president.gov.tw/

yupp.. ive more often heard taiwan called a SEA country than an EA country.. but ive definately heard both

yupp.. ive more often heard taiwan called a SEA country than an EA country.. but ive definately heard both
Perhaps that is only true within Taiwan, but outside it, most wont really say put it as such?

I mean...here I am in Southeast Asia, but we practically never knew that Taiwan is a part of our region! :D

Just look at the maps above. If we consider Burma's northmost point and Indonesia's eastmost point as a boundary, it's very obvious that Taiwan, Hainan island, and parts of southern China are located within Southeast Asia.

Not that there is anything wrong with being in Southeast Asia nor does it make Taiwan any "special" if it is, but if it is, then it is.

Unless you have godly powers and can reshape earth, you can't deny that geographically, Taiwan and parts of southern China are in Southeast Asian. :sleepy:

Aiyoh....but definitions of regions arent always to do with geographical coordinates!

Southeast Asia at its heart is a region coming under heavy influence from multiple fronts, from the Chinese, the Indian, and the Polynesians in particular. Of coz at its borders, there will be some form of cultural and ethnical assimilation with surrounding regions, but that is to be expected. For eg, Pupua New Guinea might have easily been defined as part of Southeast Asia too, but it isnt by conventional classification methods.

Most international texts, and international organisations, do not classify Taiwan within the Southeast Asian region, and that is what I am getting at here. If the otherwise was true, I wont have been surprised by this thread in the first place. With all honesty, at no point in my life prior to this have I ever heard of or imagined Taiwan to be a Southeast Asian entity.

I realize that Taiwan isn't Southeast Asian when it comes to politics and culture. However, I've been stressing time after time since my first post in this thread that Taiwan belongs to Southeast Asia GEOGRAPHICALLY.

Note that I've not once suggested Taiwan should join ASEAN.

Well, here in Germany Taiwan is considered as East Asian, geographically, politically as well as culturally.

I realize that Taiwan isn't Southeast Asian when it comes to politics and culture. However, I've been stressing time after time since my first post in this thread that Taiwan belongs to Southeast Asia GEOGRAPHICALLY.

Note that I've not once suggested Taiwan should join ASEAN.
Erm..yeah, but in terms of geography, it is not just to do with coordinates too! :D

Just check international atlases with regional classifications. My copy of the Reader's Digest Illustrated Atlas of the World lists Taiwan as part of East Asia, for eg.

Erm..yeah, but in terms of geography, it is not just to do with coordinates too! :D

Just check international atlases with regional classifications. My copy of the Reader's Digest Illustrated Atlas of the World lists Taiwan as part of East Asia, for eg.
That is still political and not truly geographical. Geography should have no political boundaries, which means that Russia would be covering both Europe and Asia and China cover different parts of Asia.

This is what the world looks like without political borders

http://www.earthworks.com.au/images/new-world-map.jpg

Not quite true. Geography is not just about the physical world. Human geography is a very key proponent to the field as well, and it involves the study of human interactions with the physical world. That includes how we manipulate spaces, be it as small as within your body, to as large as a global, extra-terrestrial and even the imagined world.

Therefore, political boundaries are indeed very much a part in the study of geography. It is the result of how groups of people manage spaces, and demarcate "your sphere" and "my sphere." In this case, regonal classifications has usually been based on political boundaries, and therefore, it is unavoidable that the two becomes closely intertwined and cannot be discounted from discussion...

People move, languages and cultures change, geographical locations don't, at least nowhere near as fast as the formers.

I realize that Taiwan isn't Southeast Asian when it comes to politics and culture. However, I've been stressing time after time since my first post in this thread that Taiwan belongs to Southeast Asia GEOGRAPHICALLY.

Note that I've not once suggested Taiwan should join ASEAN.well maybe a FRACTION of culture or people; considering that there is a very small population of indigenous tribes in taiwan that seem to be of Malayo-Polynesian stock and so ethnically and culturally are related to people in the northern Philippines:

Ifugao Woman from Central Luzon, Phils
http://www.pamas.org/pics/photoshoot/igorot63.jpg

And now Atayal Women from Taiwan:
http://www.kgu.com.tw/place/img/atayal.jpg

u see?.. u can use THAT as a base for taiwan enterin ASEAN lah :lol:

Taiwan is located in South east Asia.
Its climate is very similiar to those of ASEAN countries.

Taiwan is generally hot, and there are lots of bugs there.
Taiwan is very close to Philpine which belongs to SEA countries.
why not Taiwan?

well maybe a FRACTION of culture or people; considering that there is a very small population of indigenous tribes in taiwan that seem to be of Malayo-Polynesian stock and so ethnically and culturally are related to people in the northern Philippines:

u see?.. u can use THAT as a base for taiwan enterin ASEAN lah :lol:

Taiwan's indigenous tribes, especially the east coast tribes are not only closely related to Oceania but also with the Australian aborigines. The Ivatans of the Batan Islands in the Philippines are closely related to the Yami tribe of Taiwan as cultural and anthropological studies have shown :)

HaHA we are be able to considering as part of Oceania na~~~~~ :jk:

Link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11580850&dopt=Abstract)

Whether we're in South East Asia or North Eastern Zimbabwe we probobly won't be in the ASEAN.

Whether we're in South East Asia or North Eastern Zimbabwe we probobly won't be in the ASEAN.
I never once said that Taiwan should or want to be in ASEAN. We were strictly arguing about Taiwan's geographical location.

Taiwan is located in South east Asia.
Its climate is very similiar to those of ASEAN countries.

Taiwan is generally hot, and there are lots of bugs there.
Taiwan is very close to Philpine which belongs to SEA countries.
why not Taiwan?
I guess after living in Texas for more than half of my life, Taiwan doesn't seem so hot anymore haha.

There are lots of bugs? I don't see how that's a characteristic of Taiwan. But aside from that I agree Taiwan's climate, along with that of southern China including Hainan island, are more similar to Southeast Asia rather than say "East Asia" including Eastern, Northeastern China, Korea, and Japan.

For those who say Taiwan is in SEA, you might as well say Paupa New Guinea is SEA too.

For those who say Taiwan is in SEA, you might as well say Paupa New Guinea is SEA too.
No.

Actually Indonesia should be only partially Southeast Asia. Like Russia and China, Indonesia covers more than one geographical region.

China?Which 2?

China?Which 2?
China covers more than two geographical regions. China covers Northeast Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, and Central Asia.

But generally China is catagorized as simply "East Asia" because of cultural and linguistic characteristics.

The funny thing is, China has about 100,000,000 (6 - 8% of the total population) non-Han ethnic minorities with some leaning more toward different Asian regions. For example, the Miao ethnic group is obviously more Southeast Asian while Uighur is more Central Asian, and Mongol and Manchu are more Northeast Asian.

But I still think that Taiwan is in EA, not SEA.

But I still think that Taiwan is in EA, not SEA.
We're all entitled to our opinions.

For those who say Taiwan is in SEA, you might as well say Paupa New Guinea is SEA too.well if u put it like that, then under that logic: Aeta/Batak/Tagbanua/Mamanua etc peoples in the Philippines are of Melanesian origin, originally from Papua.. AND altho its inhabitants are not typically SE Asian, Timor Leste is also part of SE Asia loh! Also the Orang Asli and proto-malay peoples are related to the melanesians in Papua; so, if Papuan originated peoples are living all over SE Asia, what the hey: lets include Papua too.. ;)

well if u put it like that, then under that logic: Aeta/Batak/Tagbanua/Mamanua etc peoples in the Philippines are of Melanesian origin, originally from Papua.. AND altho its inhabitants are not typically SE Asian, Timor Leste is also part of SE Asia loh! Also the Orang Asli and proto-malay peoples are related to the melanesians in Papua; so, if Papuan originated peoples are living all over SE Asia, what the hey: lets include Papua too.. ;)
Hey...the last time I heard, Papua new Guinea's tribes are related to those on the Solomon Islands, and they also seem to be related to Nauru, Tuvalu, Fiji, Samoa....

New Zealand's Maoris are related to the above and also Vanautu, Tonga, cook Islands, and so on right? Seems like Australia is also related to New Zealand because both are occupied by whites...

Hey! All of Oceania is in Southeast Asia!! :D

i kno i find out some time ago! amazing loh.. did u know that the word for "5"= "lima" and excretus (:lol: ) "Tae/i" is the SAME in ALL languages of the pacific PLUS all the Malayan languages of SE asia!.. LOL we should all be one mega-region: "Lima-Tae Region" (i'm so naughty :lol: ).. Taiwan included :D i vote Huaiwei Jiao Shi as Eternal Leader of Totalitarian "care" :bow: :bow: (have i got the HNSC job yet? :D)

Timor Leste is in SEA, but is not yet a member of ASEAN.:)

Timor Leste is in SEA, but is not yet a member of ASEAN.:)

There is still unrest and extreme poverty there though.

Hey...the last time I heard, Papua new Guinea's tribes are related to those on the Solomon Islands, and they also seem to be related to Nauru, Tuvalu, Fiji, Samoa....

New Zealand's Maoris are related to the above and also Vanautu, Tonga, cook Islands, and so on right? Seems like Australia is also related to New Zealand because both are occupied by whites...

Hey! All of Oceania is in Southeast Asia!! :D

But many pacific islanders live in NZ.

I have ever heard that Taiwan is seeking the way to be one of the ASEAN
members. But i am not sure if it's a real fact.

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea.
Taiwan can be the member of ASEAN?

NO ...

JUST ... like to be A dialog Partner ... just like JP, US, CA, CN etc

once mahathir suggest the idea of EAEC = East Asia Economic Caucus

It is basically APEC but ... not include those ( I am sick of it )'s Nations like USA, Canada and AUstralia ..... :)

Taiwan , i think , is , of course, SEA Asian country.

Can anyone to giving me some pictures what kind of beneficial to rewarding for Taiwan to join ASEAN and what sort of contribution towards reciprocally?

EAEC or observer/dialogue partner of ASEAN is sound good for Taiwan in admitted to in franky :)

It is not a hot issued since ASEAN has been estalbished nearly to 30 years :runaway:

On the other hand , SEA, Eastern and NE is just the conceptual to the word that division of geograpically among to economical, human race and a map of a site

If Taiwan who is recognized as or being deemed that from counterparts ubiquitously

Why does she to expel from them ?? since she was UN member before in 1979

Geographically speaking, it could be part of SEA. Politically, as a part of "One China," it's not a part of SEA. But it's up to the Taiwanese people and government to choose whether they'll stake their claim for inpendence and decide which grouping they want to join. If Taiwan decides to join ASEAN, there's nothing wrong with that in my point of view. Hmm....if it decides for independence, will it be still called the Republic of China, or the Republic of Taiwan?

Here's some pics of Kadazandusun tribes in Sabah, North Borneo, Malaysia
who are said to have close genetic linkage with the Taiwanese aborigines ( so do other indigineous tribes in Borneo).

http://www.sabahtourism.com/events/bamboofest/images/pic7.jpg

http://www.sabahtourism.com/events/bamboofest/images/pic32.jpg

It is basically APEC but ... not include those ( I am sick of it )'s Nations like USA, Canada and AUstralia ..... :)

LOL they're hypocrites speaking the same tone among them.

Geographically speaking, it could be part of SEA. Politically, as a part of "One China," it's not a part of SEA. But it's up to the Taiwanese people and government to choose whether they'll stake their claim for inpendence and decide which grouping they want to join. If Taiwan decides to join ASEAN, there's nothing wrong with that in my point of view. Hmm....if it decides for independence, will it be still called the Republic of China, or the Republic of Taiwan?

Very good point.

Asean cool on car proposal

Woranuj Maneerungsee

Indonesia is unlikely to pursue its idea of an "Asean car" due to the lack of support from other Asean member countries, particularly Thailand, which has opened its doors for multinational companies to set up production facilities.

At a recent meeting of Asean senior officials in Jakarta, Indonesian officials made no attempt to persuade other parties to back its initiative to create guidelines for full liberalisation of the automotive sector in terms of tariff and non-tariff barriers, according to a Thai official who took part.

The official noted that at an earlier, informal meeting of Asean economic ministers in April, ministers from Thailand, Singapore and the Philippines opposed the initiative, citing the strong growth of the Thai car industry due to the country's free market policy.

The automotive sector is one of 11 chosen by the 10 Asean nations to be integrated within the trade bloc for the purposes of developing a competitive advantage. The integration of those sectors will be completed by 2010 ahead of Asean's ultimate goal, the Asean Economic Community (AEC), which calls for the free flow of goods, services, investment, labour and capital throughout the region by 2020.

The selected sectors include: farm and fishery products, for which Burma is responsible; automobiles and wood products (Indonesia); rubber products and garments (Malaysia); electronics (the Philippines); information technology and health services and products (Singapore); and tourism and aviation (Thailand).


Asean officials are scheduled to complete roadmaps for the sectors before the annual Asean economic ministers' meeting in Jarkarta in September.

The ministers need to endorse the proposals.

Under the plan, member countries will grant special incentives such as zero tariffs, unified product standards and faster and simplified customs clearance on products from the 11 sectors.

"For the car sector, Asean would like to encourage multinational carmakers to outsource parts from Asean countries first. That could boost intra-regional trade among Asean nations," the official said.

Bangkok Post

- Not only CP group (Thai) is one of the largest investors in China, it is the single largest investors in China. The company registration # is 0001. CP group Hong Kong subsidary is 18th largest company in Hong Kong (http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/asiaweek1000.2000/c_hk.html)

CP group Indonesia subsidary is also 18th largest company in Indonesia (http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/asiaweek1000.2000/c_indonesia.html)

I don't want to screw up this Taiwan forum.
Sindell, May you pls open a thread about this topic and repeat your comments in mainland China forum? I am glad to see you there!

I don't want to screw up this Taiwan forum.
Sindell, May you pls open a thread about this topic and repeat your comments in mainland China forum? I am glad to see you there!

- No need to discuss it with you. I think you and I are in different league.

- No need to discuss it with you. I think you and I are in different league.
You know you throw garbage everywhere. :eek2:

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Quite a troll huh? I'm really worried if there r ppl caring for him/her/whatever.

Join Date: May 7th, 2004
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Quite a troll huh? I'm really worried if there r ppl caring for him/her/whatever.
How does that make him a troll?

Here's some pics of Kadazandusun tribes in Sabah, North Borneo, Malaysia
who are said to have close genetic linkage with the Taiwanese aborigines ( so do other indigineous tribes in Borneo).

http://www.sabahtourism.com/events/bamboofest/images/pic7.jpg

http://www.sabahtourism.com/events/bamboofest/images/pic32.jpg

Some tribes in Borneo ( Malaysia or Indonesia ) indeed originates from Mainland China.
It was in the Kubilai Khan Era ... that the Kubilai Khan empire want to collonialize Kingdom in Java ( I forget the name ) ....

But this King from Java , Refused .... even cut the ear of the messanger of Kubilai Khan ...

Kubilai Khan was Angry ... and wanted to attack ....

He sent thousands of ships ......

But many of the group of ships didn't manage to arrive in Java and deserted in many island along the route to Java Island...... which are borneo, riau, sumatera etc. etc.

Well .. that is the history I got when I was in Primary School .....

Cheers ... :-)

Kubilai Khan..son of Genghis Khan isn't he?

Kubilai Khan..son of Genghis Khan isn't he?

No , Grandson.
I think his empire is wider than his grandfather .....


http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/euro55.htm

1292

The Mongol Chinese Empire by orders of the Emperor Kublai Khan invaded Sumatra and Java with 1,000 ships during the 1292-1293 season. They returned to China in defeat.

Some tribes in Borneo ( Malaysia or Indonesia ) indeed originates from Mainland China.
It was in the Kubilai Khan Era ... that the Kubilai Khan empire want to collonialize Kingdom in Java ( I forget the name ) ....

But this King from Java , Refused .... even cut the ear of the messanger of Kubilai Khan ...

Kubilai Khan was Angry ... and wanted to attack ....

He sent thousands of ships ......

But many of the group of ships didn't manage to arrive in Java and deserted in many island along the route to Java Island...... which are borneo, riau, sumatera etc. etc.

Well .. that is the history I got when I was in Primary School .....

Cheers ... :-)
actually i think that is sorta wrong... in fact, all the peoples of the malay and philippine archipelagoes; the pacific islands, madagascar, the Cham people of indo-china and the indigenous Taiwanese tribes all belong to the same blanket group known as the Austronesian/(used to be known as Malayo-Polynesian) group. in language and ethnicitiesa; all these peoples are related. it is well-known and accepted as true: chinese, mongol and korean peoples are NOT related to the various austronesian peoples :D

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/austronesian.gif

this map is clearer:
http://www.unc.edu/~nielsen/soci011/hs6/hs6026.gif

it is considered true that the original inhabitants of south china were austronesian peoples; who fled to taiwan and the philippines when they were overrun by Han Chinese. after that u can see the events in this example:
http://www.unc.edu/~nielsen/soci011/hs6/hs6027.gif

U may think that theories are not true: but the proof will ultimately be the various peopels themselves right? well take a look at this :D..
The 1st picture is of people from Madagascar (a large island off the coast of east africa): the 2nd picture is of a gorup of kids from Samoa in Polynesia; the 3rd is of two Rukai indigenous girls from Taiwan; and the last is on a T'boli woman from the Philippines: look at how the extreme similarites in features; they also look extremely similar to Malay/Indonesian in features (and note the similarities in traditional dress between the Taiwanese Rukai and Philippine T'boli)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/36383000/jpg/_36383862_madagascarpeople300.jpg
http://www.earthfoot.org/places/ws001a.jpg
http://www.iov.org.tw/folkart/p03e/rukai/rukai01.jpg
http://www.travelphil.com/fotos/pics/tboli.jpg

1-10 in various languages: MORE PROOF:
Rukai (TAIWAN): Sa, Dua, Telu, Pat, Lima, Nem, Pitu, Walu, Iwa, Pulu
Tagalog (PHILS): Isa Dalawa Tatlo Apat Lima Anim Pito Walo Siyam Sampu
Visayan/Bisaya (PHILS/BORNEO): Usa Duha Tulo Upat Lima Unom Pitu Walu Siyam Napulo
Kadazan-Dusun (BORNEO): Iso Duoh Tolu Apat Limo Onöm Turu Walu Siam Hopod
Bahasa Indonesia/Malay: Satu Dua Tiga Empat Lima Tujuh Dalapan Sembilan Sepuluh
Samoan: Tasi Lua Tolu Fa Lima Ono Fitu Valu Iva Sefulu

u see :D All these languages and cultures are related: they are proof of the austronesian peoples theory.. Kadazans and Dayaks of malaysia/indonesia as well as the Lumad of Philippines are all austronesian: there is nothing that makes them particularly Chinese in appearance, customs or languages... chinese numbers from 1-10 is VERY different and unrelated to the austronesian languages above: (they are: Yee Er San Se Woo Lyo Chee Bah Jyo Shi)

therefore, on this knowledge: i think that the "Khublai Khan's men populating SE Asia" history u were taught before is quite flawed to give a more east asian outlook to Indonesia than it really has :D philippines also goes on about the chinese pirate Lim Ah Hong (mandarin name: Lin Tao Kien); who reputedly was eligible to the chinese throne, but fled China when someone else seized the throne, settled in pampanga in the philippines and fathered "many many children": well, knowing about the austronesian thing, i can also say that history's flawed too :lol: (u learn something new everyday eh ;) :lol: ) they should really sort out what they teach peopel back home u kno, it can cover important truths and similarities between each other :D

(oops i forgot to say: ) There is specualtion now to suggest that those in Thailand and indo-china could all very well be austronesian too, so that covers all of ASEAN LOL: So why not Taiwan eh? :lol: Taiwan can be BOTH ASEAN and East Asian too rite?; Chinese AND Austronesian :lol:

1-10 in various languages: MORE PROOF:
Rukai (TAIWAN): Sa, Dua, Telu, Pat, Lima, Nem, Pitu, Walu, Iwa, Pulu
Tagalog (PHILS): Isa Dalawa Tatlo Apat Lima Anim Pito Walo Siyam Sampu
Visayan/Bisaya (PHILS/BORNEO): Usa Duha Tulo Upat Lima Unom Pitu Walu Siyam Napulo
Kadazan-Dusun (BORNEO): Iso Duoh Tolu Apat Limo Onöm Turu Walu Siam Hopod
Bahasa Indonesia/Malay: Satu Dua Tiga Empat Lima Tujuh Dalapan Sembilan Sepuluh
Samoan: Tasi Lua Tolu Fa Lima Ono Fitu Valu Iva Sefulu

therefore, on this knowledge: i think that the "Khublai Khan's men populating SE Asia" history u were taught before is quite flawed to give a more east asian outlook to Indonesia than it really has :D philippines also goes on about the chinese pirate Lim Ah Hong (mandarin name: Lin Tao Kien); who reputedly was eligible to the chinese throne, but fled China when someone else seized the throne, settled in pampanga in the philippines and fathered "many many children": well, knowing about the austronesian thing, i can also say that history's flawed too :lol: (u learn something new everyday eh ;) :lol: ) they should really sort out what they teach peopel back home u kno, it can cover important truths and similarities between each other :D



Correction :

Bahasa Indonesia/Malay :Satu Dua Tiga Empat Lima Enam Tujuh Dalapan Sembilan Sepuluh

You missed Enam = 6

Addition :
I am Javanese :

Javanese : Siji Loro Telu Papat Limo Enem Pitu Wolu Sanga Sepuluh
Compare it with
Rukai :(TAIWAN): Sa, Dua, Telu, Pat, Lima, Nem, Pitu, Walu, Iwa, Pulu

Wah .. we are very close relative .... :) :)

Lumpia ...
Agree with you about the Austronesia things ...

However the Kubilai Khan things is also right ....
It doesn't in fact explain about the expansion of Austronesia people,
It just explain about that there are some Mongolian/Chinese People who deserted in islands along the route from China to Java when Kubilai Khan Invade Java. This explain the existence of chinese population in Sumatera, Riau, Batam, Borneo.

and About Madagascar , In fact there is a scripture in Borobusur Temple that can be interpretated that they are from Nusantara ( Archipelago in Indonesia and maybe Phillipines )



http://borobudurshipexpedition.com/index.htm http://borobudurshipexpedition.com/images/relief01.jpg

Correction :

Bahasa Indonesia/Malay :Satu Dua Tiga Empat Lima Enam Tujuh Dalapan Sembilan Sepuluh

You missed Enam = 6

Addition :
I am Javanese :

Javanese : Siji Loro Telu Papat Limo Enem Pitu Wolu Sanga Sepuluh
Compare it with
Rukai :(TAIWAN): Sa, Dua, Telu, Pat, Lima, Nem, Pitu, Walu, Iwa, Pulu

Wah .. we are very close relative .... :) :)

Lumpia ...
Agree with you about the Austronesia things ...

However the Kubilai Khan things is also right ....
It doesn't in fact explain about the expansion of Austronesia people,
It just explain about that there are some Mongolian/Chinese People who deserted in islands along the route from China to Java when Kubilai Khan Invade Java. This explain the existence of chinese population in Sumatera, Riau, Batam, Borneo.

and About Madagascar , In fact there is a scripture in Borobusur Temple that can be interpretated that they are from Nusantara ( Archipelago in Indonesia and maybe Phillipines )



http://borobudurshipexpedition.com/index.htm http://borobudurshipexpedition.com/images/relief01.jpg
LOL sorry about the Enam :lol: .. Before the spanish came to the Philippines, the islands were culturally part of the Dunia Melayu Nusantara. It is clearly shown in the dances of the ethnic gorups such as the Moro groups from Mindanao and the Lumad and Igorot (Philippine Dayak) in Mindanao and Inner Luzon. Its also showsn in History:
Manila (thenknown as Maynilad or Selurong) was under the rule of Rajah Suleiman, who was supposed to be Rajahmuda (heir) to the Bruneian throne, if the Spanish didnt come and kill him :(.. there was a document uncovered form the Philippines called the LCI (Laguna Cpopperplate Inscription).. it dates from 800AD and proves the Philippines was also part of the Nusantara.

it was written in a script similar to Javanese Pali and talked of a man named Namwaran whose debt was repaid. It names placed in and around Manila Bay area "Tondo, Paila, Gatbuca, Binwangan and Puliran" and mentions links to the Lord of Medang in Indonesia. its a real eye-opener to the links between all austronesian peoples. and the extent of the Nusantara :D

http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.gif

Transliteration shows extreme similarities to Court Javanese and Old High Malay of the royal clans:

Swasti syaka warsyatita 822 Waisakha masa ding jyotisha. Chaturthi Krishnapaksha somawara sana tatkala Dayang Angkatan lawan dengannya sanak barngaran si Bukah anakda dang Hwan Namwaran di bari waradana wi syuddhapatra ulih sang pamegat senapati di tundun barjadi dang Hwan Nayaka tuhan Pailah Jayadewa. Di krama dang Hwan Namwaran dengan dang kayastha syuddha nu di parlappas hutangda waledanda Kati 1 Suwarna 8 di hadapan dang Hwan Nayaka tuhan Puliran Ka-Sumuran. dang Hwan Nayaka tuhan Pailah barjadi ganashakti. dang hwan nayaka tuhan Binwangan barjadi bisyruta tathapi sadanda sanak kaparawis ulih sang pamegat dewata barjadi sang pamegat Medang dari bhaktinda di parhulun sang pamegat. Ya makanya sadanya anak cucu dang Hwan Namwaran syuddha ya kaparawis di hutangda dang Hwan Namwaran di sang pamegat dewata. Ini gerang syat syapanta ha pasychat ding ari kamudyan ada gerang urang barujara welung lappas hutangda dang Hwa..

weird huh! :crazy: it just proves: how little we know of each other in SE Asia, yet of how much links us together :D LOL Taiwan should "join the gang"

LOL sorry about the Enam :lol: .. Before the spanish came to the Philippines, the islands were culturally part of the Dunia Melayu Nusantara. It is clearly shown in the dances of the ethnic gorups such as the Moro groups from Mindanao and the Lumad and Igorot (Philippine Dayak) in Mindanao and Inner Luzon. Its also showsn in History:
Manila (thenknown as Maynilad or Selurong) was under the rule of Rajah Suleiman, who was supposed to be Rajahmuda (heir) to the Bruneian throne, if the Spanish didnt come and kill him :(.. there was a document uncovered form the Philippines called the LCI (Laguna Cpopperplate Inscription).. it dates from 800AD and proves the Philippines was also part of the Nusantara.

it was written in a script similar to Javanese Pali and talked of a man named Namwaran whose debt was repaid. It names placed in and around Manila Bay area "Tondo, Paila, Gatbuca, Binwangan and Puliran" and mentions links to the Lord of Medang in Indonesia. its a real eye-opener to the links between all austronesian peoples. and the extent of the Nusantara :D

http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.gif

Transliteration shows extreme similarities to Court Javanese and Old High Malay of the royal clans:

Swasti syaka warsyatita 822 Waisakha masa ding jyotisha. Chaturthi Krishnapaksha somawara sana tatkala Dayang Angkatan lawan dengannya sanak barngaran si Bukah anakda dang Hwan Namwaran di bari waradana wi syuddhapatra ulih sang pamegat senapati di tundun barjadi dang Hwan Nayaka tuhan Pailah Jayadewa. Di krama dang Hwan Namwaran dengan dang kayastha syuddha nu di parlappas hutangda waledanda Kati 1 Suwarna 8 di hadapan dang Hwan Nayaka tuhan Puliran Ka-Sumuran. dang Hwan Nayaka tuhan Pailah barjadi ganashakti. dang hwan nayaka tuhan Binwangan barjadi bisyruta tathapi sadanda sanak kaparawis ulih sang pamegat dewata barjadi sang pamegat Medang dari bhaktinda di parhulun sang pamegat. Ya makanya sadanya anak cucu dang Hwan Namwaran syuddha ya kaparawis di hutangda dang Hwan Namwaran di sang pamegat dewata. Ini gerang syat syapanta ha pasychat ding ari kamudyan ada gerang urang barujara welung lappas hutangda dang Hwa..

weird huh! :crazy: it just proves: how little we know of each other in SE Asia, yet of how much links us together :D LOL Taiwan should "join the gang"


hhooooo mmmyyyyyy Gooodddd .....
the scripture is in old sundanese language ....
I am familiar with many of the words ..... almost 50% of the words ...

Where this scripture was found Lumpia ... ?

It won't be strange, if you look at Asia from this angle:
http://www.cca.gov.tw/news/2004/taiwan_maps/visit_formosa/images/map/01303.jpg
for a larger pic:
http://www.cca.gov.tw/news/2004/taiwan_maps/visit_formosa/images/map/magnify/01303.jpg

Also, if you look at there maps, there are a lot of small islands in betweed larger islands...The distance between Japnaese islands, Philiphino islands and Formosan Islands is very short...well compared to Hawaii's situation...
http://www.cca.gov.tw/news/2004/taiwan_maps/visit_formosa/images/map/01307.jpg
http://www.cca.gov.tw/news/2004/taiwan_maps/visit_formosa/images/map/magnify/01307.jpg

http://www.cca.gov.tw/news/2004/taiwan_maps/visit_formosa/images/map/01304.jpg
http://www.cca.gov.tw/news/2004/taiwan_maps/visit_formosa/images/map/magnify/01304.jpg

Taiwan(Formosa)'s situation is similar to some SEA countries. It's Aboringinals are Maly-Polynesians. The majority of it's Chinese populations(Holo and Hakka) are from China's Hokien(Fujian) and Canton(Guangdong) provinces. It was colonized by Dutch and Spanish before

What if?
If Manchu didn't invade China, Koxinga from China wouldn't have come to Formosa and kicked out Dutch. Formosa would have still been a Dutch colony like Indonesia until 1945....well...history doesn't have "what if?", but it is still fun to think about it.

hhooooo mmmyyyyyy Gooodddd .....
the scripture is in old sundanese language ....
I am familiar with many of the words ..... almost 50% of the words ...

Where this scripture was found Lumpia ... ? LOL this was found by the shores of the Laguna de ba'y Lake in Luzon, not far from Manila. All the places named in the LCI are places nearby "Tundun=Tondo in Manila, Binwangan=Binwangan in Bulacan province, Pailah=Paila in Bulacan Province, Puliran=Pulilan in Bulacan Province". it is also interesting because the man named "Bukah" may have been a datu of a place in Bulacan province bordering Pampanga province called "Gatbuca". It was well known in the past that the extinct-word "Gat" was added to a high-class name instead of "si" which is used for normal people. That means to ordinary people of the time, the man "Bukah" would have been known as "Gat-Bukah" and hence his town "Gatbuca" today.. its a real eye opener :D...

For more info on the LCI heres the link: http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm

its so interesting how all austronesian peoples used to keep strong links with each other, while today we have all lost contact ;)..

Taiwan: Austronesian tribes in ur country may just be enough to provide solid evidence that Taiwan cannot be a part of China like the Chinese want to aim for (i heard the news of the Chinese invasion drills again and the Taiwanese drills in response).. use this example to break free as an independant island with an independant history: Chinese AND Austronesian ;) :D

Taiwan: Austronesian tribes in ur country may just be enough to provide solid evidence that Taiwan cannot be a part of China like the Chinese want to aim for (i heard the news of the Chinese invasion drills again and the Taiwanese drills in response).. use this example to break free as an independant island with an independant history: Chinese AND Austronesian ;) :D

nah....
Just look at Manchuria, Tibet, Inner-Mongolia, and Xinjiang(East Turkestan)'s situation... (Manchurian, Tibetan, Mongolian, and Uighur)
Doesn't need any examples, reasons or proves...

actually i think that is sorta wrong... in fact, all the peoples of the malay and philippine archipelagoes; the pacific islands, madagascar, the Cham people of indo-china and the indigenous Taiwanese tribes all belong to the same blanket group known as the Austronesian/(used to be known as Malayo-Polynesian) group. in language and ethnicitiesa; all these peoples are related. it is well-known and accepted as true: chinese, mongol and korean peoples are NOT related to the various austronesian peoples :D

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/austronesian.gif

this map is clearer:
http://www.unc.edu/~nielsen/soci011/hs6/hs6026.gif

it is considered true that the original inhabitants of south china were austronesian peoples; who fled to taiwan and the philippines when they were overrun by Han Chinese. after that u can see the events in this example:
http://www.unc.edu/~nielsen/soci011/hs6/hs6027.gif

U may think that theories are not true: but the proof will ultimately be the various peopels themselves right? well take a look at this :D..
The 1st picture is of people from Madagascar (a large island off the coast of east africa): the 2nd picture is of a gorup of kids from Samoa in Polynesia; the 3rd is of two Rukai indigenous girls from Taiwan; and the last is on a T'boli woman from the Philippines: look at how the extreme similarites in features; they also look extremely similar to Malay/Indonesian in features (and note the similarities in traditional dress between the Taiwanese Rukai and Philippine T'boli)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/36383000/jpg/_36383862_madagascarpeople300.jpg
http://www.earthfoot.org/places/ws001a.jpg
http://www.iov.org.tw/folkart/p03e/rukai/rukai01.jpg
http://www.travelphil.com/fotos/pics/tboli.jpg

1-10 in various languages: MORE PROOF:
Rukai (TAIWAN): Sa, Dua, Telu, Pat, Lima, Nem, Pitu, Walu, Iwa, Pulu
Tagalog (PHILS): Isa Dalawa Tatlo Apat Lima Anim Pito Walo Siyam Sampu
Visayan/Bisaya (PHILS/BORNEO): Usa Duha Tulo Upat Lima Unom Pitu Walu Siyam Napulo
Kadazan-Dusun (BORNEO): Iso Duoh Tolu Apat Limo Onöm Turu Walu Siam Hopod
Bahasa Indonesia/Malay: Satu Dua Tiga Empat Lima Tujuh Dalapan Sembilan Sepuluh
Samoan: Tasi Lua Tolu Fa Lima Ono Fitu Valu Iva Sefulu

u see :D All these languages and cultures are related: they are proof of the austronesian peoples theory.. Kadazans and Dayaks of malaysia/indonesia as well as the Lumad of Philippines are all austronesian: there is nothing that makes them particularly Chinese in appearance, customs or languages... chinese numbers from 1-10 is VERY different and unrelated to the austronesian languages above: (they are: Yee Er San Se Woo Lyo Chee Bah Jyo Shi)

therefore, on this knowledge: i think that the "Khublai Khan's men populating SE Asia" history u were taught before is quite flawed to give a more east asian outlook to Indonesia than it really has :D philippines also goes on about the chinese pirate Lim Ah Hong (mandarin name: Lin Tao Kien); who reputedly was eligible to the chinese throne, but fled China when someone else seized the throne, settled in pampanga in the philippines and fathered "many many children": well, knowing about the austronesian thing, i can also say that history's flawed too :lol: (u learn something new everyday eh ;) :lol: ) they should really sort out what they teach peopel back home u kno, it can cover important truths and similarities between each other :D

(oops i forgot to say: ) There is specualtion now to suggest that those in Thailand and indo-china could all very well be austronesian too, so that covers all of ASEAN LOL: So why not Taiwan eh? :lol: Taiwan can be BOTH ASEAN and East Asian too rite?; Chinese AND Austronesian :lol:

The similarities are striking!!

:eek2:

nah....
Just look at Manchuria, Tibet, Inner-Mongolia, and Xinjiang(East Turkestan)'s situation... (Manchurian, Tibetan, Mongolian, and Uighur)
Doesn't need any reasons or proves...actually thats true too :lol:.. but the difference is that all the peoples u mentioned kept strong links with Chinese people and many intermarried with them: witht the austronesian people, contact was only limited to trading relations. As i may have thought the Ancient Chinese may have viewed the very "barbaric" looking austronesian peoples as quite fearsome and so wanted to have relations with them rather than be enemies :lol: The old martial traditions of headhunting, tattooing and war chanting are common throughout Austronesian peoples.

btw: Just to show, i put up these examples of the common culture is present in music: which is very VERY warlike and chantlike. From chants of Taiwanese tribes (open with Real Player):
http://apm.brookes.ac.uk/chiang/native/puyuma.rm
http://apm.brookes.ac.uk/chiang/native/bunon.rpm
to the Haka of the Maoris of New Zealand
http://www.5-continents.org/son_video/nz/haka_56k.ram

u can see a big similarity. :eek2:

Geographically speaking, it could be part of SEA. Politically, as a part of "One China," it's not a part of SEA. But it's up to the Taiwanese people and government to choose whether they'll stake their claim for inpendence and decide which grouping they want to join. If Taiwan decides to join ASEAN, there's nothing wrong with that in my point of view. Hmm....if it decides for independence, will it be still called the Republic of China, or the Republic of Taiwan?

They won't declare independence its a death sentence.

Taiwan is in East Asia. You categorize its geographical position not only its position but its people and culture as well. Mongolians,Chinese(TW included),Korean and Japanese are part of the same family group. Therefor they are North East,East Asians.

[QUOTE=lumpia]. As i may have thought the Ancient Chinese may have viewed the very "barbaric" looking austronesian peoples as quite fearsome and so wanted to have relations with them rather than be enemies :lol: The old martial traditions of headhunting, tattooing and war chanting are common throughout Austronesian peoples.
QUOTE]

The ancient Chinese were only afraid of the Mongols. That is why they bulit the Great Wall to keep them out. Ancient Chinese military during the Qin dynasty is often compared with the Roman Empire. China has no enemies only themselves during the ancient times. Many Asian countries also pay tribute to China during the Ancient times like Vietnam,Thailand,and Korea. Austronesian people would be mean nothing to the Chinese, they had nothing to trade in value.

The ancient Chinese were only afraid of the Mongols. That is why they bulit the Great Wall to keep them out. Ancient Chinese military during the Qin dynasty is often compared with the Roman Empire. China has no enemies only themselves during the ancient times. Many Asian countries also pay tribute to China during the Ancient times like Vietnam,Thailand,and Korea. Austronesian people would be mean nothing to the Chinese, they had nothing to trade in value... a few things on Sino-Austronesian trade within SE Asia.. READ:

Firstly on Ancient Philippine trade with the Chinese and Japanese:

The ancient Filipino engaged in pottery making from very ancient times. Many of the important pottery traditions that spread into other parts of the Oceania region had their counterparts in the Philippines including the well-known Lapita culture. This quote from Wilhelm Solheim illustrates the matter:

"I hypothesize that the Sa-huyn Kalanay and Lapita pottery traditions had a common origin somewhere in the Palawan-Sarawak-Sulu Sea-Sulawesi area and that it was at this point in time and space that a second and main stage in the spread of the Austronesian languages began."

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~dct935/philippine%20nisshi/ryugaku/travel2001/burnay.jpg

One interesting question is whether or not the Philippines ever developed an export industry for pottery. Generally it is known that the Thais had developed quite a flourishing industry, which is sometimes considered unique in SE Asia. However, it is well-documented that the Philippines was in fact a major destination of pottery buyers from the islands of Japan at least. Japanese texts mention trading expeditions to the island of Rusun (Luzon) going well back before the Spanish period. What they sought were the highly-prized Rusun and Namban jars. In fact, these jars were far more precious than gold to the Japanese because of their ability to act as tea canisters. Japanese texts were very specific about these jars being made in Luzon. The Tokiko, for example, calls the Rusun and Namban jars, Ru-sun tsukuru ルースン作る(or Lu-sung ch'i (Chinese), which means simply "made in Luzon." The only question is whether the pottery makers were Filipinos trained in the Chinese art, or local Japanese or Chinese, or a combination of both.

In the Tokiko it mentions that all Rusun jars had this marking http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/spiral.gif known as the rokuru (wheel mark). Those familar with Philippine ethnography will know that this spiral is commonly used by many of the Philippine tribes.

The following symbols were used to identify which kiln was used to make the jar:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/imbe.gif identified "Imbe" jars
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/bizen.gif meant jars coming from Bizen kiln

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/chaire.gif mark three times meant a canister from the same oven. A jar with this mark is said to be made of Namban clay. This marking corresponds to the syllable la http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/pampa.gif in Pampanga; http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/tagba.gif Tagbanua for ka ("Chinese Pottery," Field Museum of Natural History-Anth., vol.xii, Jul.1912)

Of course, the symbol for La can also be the same as that for Lu, and so this might correspond to the symbol said to stand for Lu in Rusun-no kokuji (Luzon national writing). According to the Tokiko, certain types of Rusun jars were distinguished by this character. De Morga mentions that Japanese traders were still coming in large numbers for these jars during his time, and that they were willing to spend great sums for them. Apparently work on these jars continued in the North, possibly among the unconquered Igorots, for De Morga had no knowledge of such current production. Later, the knowledge may have again trickled down to Vigan, where a flourishing industry of Burnay jar manufacture survives to this day. Although the Japanese described very high quality jars coming from the Philippines, not all were of elegant nature. In fact, De Morga had some disdain for some of the jars that the Japanese were buying, so they could have been similar to the well-known balanga and other jars in use today. These jars are generally handed down as heirlooms and are noted for their qualities in enhancing the fermentation process. Possibly one of the Japanese uses for the Rusun jars was fermentation of products like Kombucha and Umeboshi plums. Indeed a Japanese acquaintance stated that their family in rural Japan used old Rusun jars for exactly this purpose up to this day.

Another interesting type of pottery was the "dragon jar."
http://www.kotoken.co.jp/korea/choson/pict/b-w-dragon-jar-2.jpg
Although these jars shown certain Chinese or Japanese influence, no kiln from China or elsewhere has yet been discovered that produced these jars. Indeed, no true samples of these jars have even been found in China! However, even many of the humblest tribal families possessed at least one of these jars in some areas of the Philippines. These are very fine works and are a tribute to the makers, who likely resided in the Philippines, if not Filipinos themselves. It should be noted that the Japanese were very careful about classification of pottery. Even in foreign countries like Korea, they were careful to distinguish the differences between indigenous Korean and imported Chinese-school pottery made in Korea. In the case of the Rusun and Namban jars, they distinctly classified them as local manufactures.

Other industries included the manufacture of liquors and vinegars like Tuba and Basi, the production of hides for export to Japan, export of edible bird's nests (el-nido) from Northern Palawan to China, the raising and trade of civet cats, the manufacture of gunpowder, the making of wax for export to China, and the making of cotton stockings for export.


Philippine trading vessels used for foreign and local trade. Trade was a big business among these peoples:
http://www.aenet.org/manilaexpo/p10ima2.jpg
http://www.aenet.org/manilaexpo/p10ima1.jpg
http://www.los-indios-bravos.com/english/jpgs/baranggay_03.jpg



from another source on old Philippine trade with China:
Records for China's largest port, Guangzhou, situated on the coast of Fujian province, show that by the 10th century Filipino merchants were sailing regularly to China for business. Moreover, throughout China痴 Song and Yuan dynasties (960-1368) Chinese ships traded extensively with the Philippines, resulting in the establishment of permanent Chinese communities at a number of sites around the coast. Large finds of pottery and coins indicate that the main Philippine trading centers were at Butuan (on the north coast of Mindanao), Cebu (today the Philippines・second most important city), Tondo (a district in today's Manila) and the Sulu Islands.


Chinese Trade with Indonesian Empires:
Special circumstances affecting Shrivijaya-Palembang toward the end of the 7th century are consistent with this conclusion. In the centuries before the Chinese undertook long voyages overseas, they relied on foreign shipping for their imports, and foreign merchants, trading with China, required a safe base in Indonesia before sailing on to China. This seaborne trade, regarded in China as "tributary" trade with the "emperors' barbarian vassals," had developed during the 5th and 6th centuries but languished in the second half of the 6th century as a result of the civil war in China that preceded the rise of the Sui and T'ang dynasties. Chinese records for the first half of the 7th century mention several small harbour kingdoms in the region, especially in northeastern Sumatra, that were pretending to be Chinese vassals. The rulers of Palembang, hoping for a revival of trade under the new T'ang dynasty, must have been anxious to monopolize the China trade and eliminate their rivals. They succeeded in doing this. Before I-ching left Southeast Asia in 695, Shrivijaya was in control of the Strait of Malacca; the ruler's determination to control all harbours in the region that might compete in the China trade explains his militancy, as shown in the Old Malay inscriptions.
So Austronesian people "mean be nothing to Chinese"? Austonesians "had nothing to trade in value" to the great Chinese huh?.. well its seems Austronesian were pretty important enough for the Chinese to take the trouble to trade with them for high quality storage jars, wax, liquor, vinegar, civet cats, el-nido birds, cotton stockings and hides...

Lumpia .. continuing the scripture ...
I just saw the map of Majapahit Kingdom ....
Guess what ...
Philippines is part of Majapahit Kingdom .... :) :)

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/h/hi/hinduism_in_southeast_asia.html

Lumpia .. continuing the scripture ...
I just saw the map of Majapahit Kingdom ....
Guess what ...
Philippines is part of Majapahit Kingdom .... :) :)

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/h/hi/hinduism_in_southeast_asia.html
LOL its amazing! :D.. did u know that the Visayas central islands in the Philippines are named after the Sri Vijayan Empire on Sumatra. Take a read of what i found on the net on the purported origins of the Visayan peoples of the Philippines. :D:D


Who are the Visayans and where do they come from?

Before 500 AD, there are no known archaeological findings of native Southeast Asian Malay inscriptions. Thus, we have to rely on Chinese documents about Southeast Asia.

Their records tell of five Southeast Asian states sending trade missions to
South China between 430 to 473 AD. After that, the one known by its
Chinese toponym Kan-t'o-li prevailed over its neighbors. Historian O.W.
Wolters believes that this state was established near Palembang, Sumatra in
the second century. Trade stopped during the 500's due to civil strife in
China, and Kantoli was never heard of again.
Inscriptions in Old Malay appear after 500 AD, notably in Sumatra, Banka island, Java and the Malay Peninsula. Eight states emerged to resume trade with South China starting 608 AD but by 670 only one remained, Shih-li-fo-shih.

Artifacts dated 775 AD from the Ligor isthmus of the Malay Peninsula, as examined by Southeast Asian history pioneer George
Coedus, determined that the state known to the Chinese as Shih-li-fo-shih was the same as Sri Vijaya.

Sri is a Pali/Sankrit honorific placed before the name of people and places. One familiar example of this usage is on the island of Lanka. Thus, the common name of Sri Vijaya was just Vishaya.

Now, consider that most Philippine languages which are of the Malayo-Polynesian family, do not have the 'v' and 'sh' sounds. These are pronounced as 'b' and 's' respectively. To some, Vishaya might have been known as Bisaya.

Like the Kantoli, Sri Vijaya warred on neighboring states. It was also based in
Palembang. It is possible then that this state, which was known to the Arabs as Zapage, was the same entity as the Kantoli.

Sri Vijaya ruled from the Malay Peninsula up to perhaps Western Java at its peak. It had diplomats, traders, sailors, an international
seaport, and, according to its own inscriptions, an army of 20,000. As middlemen, they monopolized the highly lucrative Persian trade.

Javanese records tell of raids against Sri Vijaya in 992 AD while the Tamils claim to have sacked Palembang in 1025. The death blow probably came when the Chinese manned their trading ships themselves, doing away with
Vijaya middlemen.

Chinese monk I Tsing noted during his travels from 671-695 AD that Sri Vijaya practiced Mahayana Buddhism. If there is a direct link between the Sri Vijaya and the Bisaya of the Philippines, why does the latter show no traces
of the Buddhist faith?

Only the Sri-Vijaya aristocracy adhered to Mahayana. In spite of Mahayana's headstart, it was Hinayana that had greater success in the Southeast Asian Indo-Chinese mainland. The rest of Sri-Vijaya, probably ninety percent, remained animists. This explains the unencumbered spread of Islam later on. The migration of Visayans from the Malay Archipelago to Visayas in the
Philippines must have consisted of animists.

Another author, Kenneth Scott Latourette, notes that the Sri-Vijaya
established trading outposts in Taiwan. It makes it easy to suppose then that
some of them migrated to the Philippines and settled in what is now the Visayas. So where was their first settlement? Probably in Cebu.

Possibly not Bohol because some native arts there resemble the Bukidnon peoples in Mindanao. Negros likewise had sizable remnants of the
Bukidnons until recently. Panay has a large population of Karay-as and Aklanons who may antedate the Visayans. Among its neighbors,
Cebu seems to have had a Visayan identity for the longest time.

Three major ethnic groups call themselves Bisaya and their language Binisaya. They are the Ilongo, Cebuano and Waray. No matter that they speak three separate languages and have three distinct identities, still they are collectively known as Bisaya.

Cebuano may be the purest form of Binisaya. Ilongo root words are mostly Cebuano, with a significant admixture of Tagalog. The Ilongos are also geographically close to the Tagalogs. Waray root words are also mostly Cebuano, with a significant admixture of Bicolano. The Warays are also geographically close to Bicol. In Mindanao, the native forms of Binisaya are
dialects of the Cebuano language. Take note though that Cebuano language is a technical term that not all its native speakers are accustomed to.

One hypothesis is that Visayan consciousness and language spread from Cebu. Northwest it mixed with Tagalog, forming Ilongo, and northeast it mixed with Bicol, forming Waray. South to Mindanao, it retained its Cebuano
form.

Alternatively, the northward spread gave birth successively to the Ilongo and Tagalog as well as the Waray and Bicolano languages. This hypothesis is correct only if it can be shown that Cebuano is relatively the oldest of the five languages while Bicolano and Tagalog are the youngest. Note also that Tagalog and Bicolano are intimately related to no other indigenous
language in the Luzon mainland so it is not difficult to trace a Visayan root.

It does not follow that the Sri Vijaya spoke an archaic form of Cebuano. Ilongos, Cebuanos and Warays share the same root and may in fact have descended from the Sri Vijayans, an empire acknowledged today to be the greatest Malayo-Polynesian nation ever. They share equally of this sterling heritage.

Ages before Manila imposed its Tagalog language on the Philippines, Visayans already were predominant outside of Luzon. In Samar and the Leytes. In coastal Iloilo, Capiz (where an unusual form of Ilongo, Capisnon, is spoken)
and the Negroses. In Southern Masbate, Cebu, Bohol, Siquijor, Camiguin, Misamis, Lanao del Norte, Zamboanga, Agusan, Surigao (where an unusual form of Cebuano, Surigaonon, is spoken), Bukidnon and Davao.

Curiously, the Karay-as and Aklanons of Panay also consider themselves Bisaya. Binisaya is not how they call their languages though. They must be pre-Visayan peoples with their own proud history and traditions who have since coexisted with their Ilongo-Bisaya neighbors.


And this quotes the links between Majapahit and Mindanao:
Majapahit and Mindanao
The Sri Vijayans preceded the arrival of the Madjapahit Empire which came later in the 12th A.D. and conquered most of Mindanao. The Madjapahit Empire that came from Java through Sumatra were composed of a fierce warrior class just like the Brahins. They later subdued a group of Indo-Australian natives who were the original settlers of Mindanao after the Ice Age thawed and cut off the The Philippine archipelago from most of Asia, Australia and Indonesia. The descendants of the Madjaphit Empire became the fierce Moro people of southern Philippines, who until today are still fighting for an independent homeland.

as i said before: all austronesian peoples have links :D:D
from Borobudur and Taiwan with the migrations to Madagascar and the Pacific, to the Srivijayan migrations to the Visayas.. we are all linked somehow :D

The people of Malayo-polynesian are Vikings of the east. That was one of the reasons why they somehow managed to keep close contact among them in such a wide and disperse region.

Maybe we should post about this.

The world's finest sailors

http://members.fortunecity.com/dikigoros/themalays.htm

The Malay people might reasonably be called "the Vikings of the Orient." Magnificent instinctive shipbuilders, renowned as among the world’s finest sailors, they take to the water like fish, and conquered a goodly portion of the globe before being themselves "discovered" by Europeans. Indeed, they crossed the Indian Ocean to discover and settle the island of Madagascar at a time when Europeans, by and large, were still steering fearfully clear of the open ocean.

Mighty mariners and master traders, many of these seafaring tribes possess the amazing art of psycho-navigation, finding their way through the vast oceans by a sort of sixth sense.

At one time, when Europeans were sailing around in small, clumsy caravels, the Malays possessed the largest ships on the planet. Even today, the great Malay ships known as prahus (or praus) may be seen scything through the seas, the largest working sailing ships left in the world. They are shaped like the galleons of dreams, streaming softly into port under thousands of feet of black canvas. (Blair, Lawrence, Ring of Fire: Exploring the Last Remote Places of the World.)

Associated with the Malayo-Polynesian, or as it is nowadays called, the Austronesian civilization, are mysterious mega liths and more than one remarkable script of unknown, but certainly considerable antiquity.

Like the Vikings, the Malays comprise one of the great seafaring civilizations and spread their culture, language and racial stock all over two vast oceans and three or four continents. Yet there are also significant differences. The Malays have always disliked land interiors, settling generally along coastlines and avoiding the highlands. The Vikings, in contrast, penetrated deeply into Russia, traveling overland and by rivers and inland seas as far as Persia.

In a way the Malays could be described as less "mature" than the Germanic peoples, in that they are quick to laugh, quick to anger, and generally take life less seriously. They have been accused of being hard to hold to their word, and of failing to recognize the value of private property rights. And they are also unusual in their reluctance to form a true nation; their loyalties have as a rule been confined to their family, their tribe, and their locality. Even when they have formed "empires" in the past, these have not been states in the modern sense so much as city-states to which outlying territories might render tribute, but rarely allowed the "capital" to interfere in local affairs.

The fascinating part of the globe which we may call "the Malay world" has touched America more than most people are aware. Christopher Colum bus was sailing in search of the Spice Islands, it is generally believed, when he landed on Caribbean shores. And England acquired Manhattan from the Dutch in a swap: Manhattan for one of the chief islands from which cloves are obtained.

But the Malay world is infinitely more important relative to prehistory and some schools of human evolution.

Java is the home of the so-called Java Man (originally labeled Pithecanthropus erectus by scientists, but later reclassified as Homo erectus). This is thought to be an extinct ape-man or man-ape, using stone tools and dating from as long ago as one million years B.C. to some 250,000 B.C.; in a time when great ice sheets a mile or so in thickness still covered much of North America and Northwestern Europe.

Controversy swirls around another fossil hominid, Solo Man, found in central Java. Some scholars classify Solo Man as an intermediate species dating from perhaps 250,000 years ago, and claim him as evidence of a Southeast Asian evolutionary descent from H. erectus to H. sapiens. Others insist Solo Man was simply an advanced race of H. erectus who survived for a while in isolation, then died out completely.

How a proto-human such as H. erectus wound up in such a seemingly out-of-the-way place as Java is at first glance a mystery, as is the presence of the orangutan on the island of Borneo, the land of the singing fish (see MacDonald). And how did the negritos, the Papuans and other primitive people arrive at these islands, if, as is generally assumed, they originated on the mainland of Eurasia or Africa? Conversely, if they had their start in the islands, how did they get to the continents? These people seem to have neither the knowledge nor the ability to build any sort of seaworthy vessel, even a raft.

The likely explanation for how primitives got to such places as Indonesia and Malaysia, the Philippines, New Guinea, Australia and Madagascar becomes evident when we examine a map of the area during the Pleistocene era. The surface of the ocean then was at today’s 40 fathom line, and vast areas now submerged were then above water. Indeed, it was possible to walk from the mainland of Asia to all of Malaysia, including the island of Borneo (this entire area was one landmass, called by geologists Sundaland), and to the Philippines, and it appears that man followed in the footsteps of elephants, rhinoceri and stegodons along this route.

All Southeast Asian H. sapiens fossils prior to about 5,000 B.C. are of the type known as Bacson-Hoabinhians (because their culture was first recognized from the provinces of Hoa-binh, Hoa-nan, and Tan-hoa, in Vietnam’s Bacson mountains). The cave-dwelling Hoabinhians have been identified as members of the Australoid Veddoid group of peoples, who survive in isolated pockets in Malaya and the Philippines today. (The Toalas of southern Celebes would be examples of the Veddoid type.)

The Hoabinhians seem to have been of a commanding stature, six feet or so tall, with heavy bones, and possessed of large skulls with massive jaws and well-developed brow ridges. Their only known products were crudely chipped hand axes that can only with some difficulty be recognized as tools rather than naturally occurring rocks. Their skeletons are remarkably similar to present- day Melanesians, such as the people of New Caledonia and the Loyalty Islands. It is therefore thought that Australoids were the original "modern men" of this part of the globe, and that they were absorbed, driven to the uplands or pushed eastward by waves of Caucasoid and Mongoloid migration. These first modern men of the area seem to have been cannibals, as crushed human bones are found alongside discarded shells and debris of such prey animals as tapirs, elephants, deer and rhinoceri.

The first human burials and partial cremations in the area date from about 20,000 B.C. The first cave paintings in the region (mainly hand stencils but also human and animal figures) may be 10,000 or more years old and come from southwestern Sulawesi and New Guinea.

We know that the Malay region today contains races ranging from such primitive forms of humanity as the dwarf negritos, the Papuans and the Kubus, to the highly civilized Indian-Javanese, who more than 600 years ago built such fabulous monuments as the Buddhist Borobudur (Barabodur) and the Hindu chandi Prambanan. These jewels of Oriental art are noted for their magnificent sculptures and reliefs. It is a mystery why Hinduism was unable to disseminate itself over vast territories as did Buddhism, its penetration being limited to the Malay archipelago, Cambodia and Champa. Nevertheless, it struck root there so deeply that, like Buddhism, its influence has persisted down to the present day. (See Bosch for an analysis of this puzzle.)

On the small island of Bali, separated from Java by a strait only two miles wide, are found various relict groups, survivals of earlier times. First there are the majority of Balinese, who are Hin dus. In ancient times, Java was Hindu, but it was taken over by Mos lems. In Bali, Islam seems never to have achieved a foothold.

At one time Bali was populated by a race referred to by Covarrubias (Island of Bali) as "pure Indonesians", the Bali Aga. These people still have their own villages, from which outsiders, including other Balinese, are rigid ly excluded.

The negritos or Semang, although believed to be more recent arrivals than the Australoids and closely related Veddoids, are the most primitive race in Southeast Asia and the Malay Archipelago. These small and black woolly-headed nomads are of the same stock as the Aetas of the Phil ip pines and the Min copies of the Andaman Islands. They build neither houses nor boats but sleep around an open fire under a leafy shelter propped up by a stick.

Living in family groups with no tribal organization, they fear thunder and lightning and draw blood from their shins to appease the unseen powers that cause them. For their food they depend on what they can gather or kill with their blowguns and poison arrows. The negritos speak Mon-Khmer-related languages. These tongues belong to the Austro asiatic language family, not to be confused with the Austronesian language family which includes the other indigenous languages of modern Malaysia, in cluding Malay. It is believed the Aus tro asiatic language family was once found over the whole of the southern Indo chinese mainland.

Both the negritos and the Melanesians are believed to be of basically Australoid inheritance. Despite some marked resemblances, such as short stature, dark skin and kinky hair, the African pygmies (the only pure- blooded Negroes) and the Asian-Oce anic negritos have different origins, and their similarities are probably the reflection of adaptation to similar environmental conditions. (See Bellwood.) The negritos appear to have evolved in situ from their more typically Australoid ancestors, over a period of tens of thousands of years, possibly having lost contact with related population groups when the water level rose at the end of the last ice age. Genetic studies indicate that the Luzon and Mindanao negritos have probably been separated from each other for at least 10,000 years.

Far higher on the scale of evolution are the taller, fair-skinned, wavy-haired semi-nomadic Sakai or Senoi of the mountains and foothills of Malaysia. They are a cinnamon-colored people of "Indonesian" racial stock, but their language, interestingly enough, is mainly Mon-Annam or (AKA) Mon-Khmer.

In the southern half of Malaysia are found primitive tribes whose "proto-Malay" (AKA Austronesian or Malayo-Polynesian) ancestors trekked down, according to one theory, from what is now Yunnan and overran Indochina. These Jakun, as they call themselves, speak a pure form of Malay, unmixed with Sanskrit and other foreign loan words, but racially some of them have absorbed so much Australo-Melanesoid blood that they cannot readily be distinguished from Papuans, being big, black and bearded.

The Encyclopedia Britannica (Volume 17, London and New York) states that Madagascar’s natives, collectively known as Malagasy, "are divided into a considerable number of tribes, each having its distinct customs." Although geographically an African island on the Indian Ocean, the Encyclopedia notes that "the majority of its inhabitants are derived, the lighter portion of them from the Malayo-Polynesian stock, and the darker races from the Melanesian. This is inferred from their similarity to the peoples of the Indian and Pacific archipelagoes in their physical appearance, mental habits, customs and, above all, in their language. The Negroid influence is derived from slaves brought from nearby Africa by Arab traders. Whereas indigenous Malays traveled 2,000 miles in countless voyages to first discover and then colonize Madagascar, Negroes could not navigate 200 miles from Africa.

Madagascar is 800 miles long and about 200 miles wide at one point. Unlike most Malay concentrations, the Encyclopedia states that “The most striking proof of the virtual unity of the inhabitants of Madagascar is that substantially but one language is spoken over the whole country.” The Malay origin of the Malagasy were noted by Westerners in the 16th century. The Malagasy never devised a written language (consequently producing no manuscripts or inscriptions). Their language was eventually reduced to writing by English missionaries.

Madagascar remains a temperate, tranquil and rather idyllic place, underpopulated by elements not particularly interested in the chaos of the outside world. Even today, some wonder: What if the "final solution" plan devised by the Polish government in the late 1930s and cribbed by the Germans (to create a state for Europe’s Jews on Madagascar) had not been bashed to smithereens by World War II? Would not a terrible and bloody burden have been averted; the postwar creation of that Jewish state in Palestine?

The proto-Malays are shorter and darker than the "Malays proper" and are believed to have been a mixture of Caucasoid and Mongoloid peoples, while a later wave of Malays, called the "deutero-Malays", were entirely Mongoloid. The American anthropologist H. Otley Beyer, who lived in the Philippines most of his life, believed these two waves occurred something like 5,000 and 3,500 years B.C., respectively.

Another theory is that the Malays did not come from mainland Asia, but originated in the Minangkabau area, where they are still found today. The Minang kabau or Minang people are known as the most advanced and educated in Indonesia, living in their saddle-roofed traditional houses, set on stilts, with palm-fiber roofs and walls covered in ornate carvings, like the Torajas of the highlands of Celebes. They are matrilineal, with property and power passing from mother to daughter.

The proto-Malays are the ancestors of the Ibans and most of the Dayaks of Borneo (Dyaks, AKA Land Dayaks, to distinguish them from the Ibans, who are sometimes called the Sea Dayaks). The proto-Malay type also survives in the Bataks of Sumatra, the islanders of Nias, and the Torajas, noted for their ship- shaped houses and their strange burial rites (the bodies are placed in niches cut into the faces of vertical cliffs, where “tau-tau” effigies of the dead are erected to stare out at the living). The Torajas still erect megaliths and have a most unusual form of writing in which each letter looks like a mandala or posy. (The Buginese also have an ancient, i.e., pre-Hindu, script, in which, it is said, each letter resembles the cross section of a different spiral seashell.)

We also find proto-Malays today in the Igorot and Ifugao of northern Luzon. They tend to be frank and open people and are excellent farmers. They probably represent the primitive Malay type, little affected by foreign influences.

The nomadic Punan (or Penan) Dyaks of central Borneo, a fascinating subtribe of non-headhunters, are, in terms of their racial appearance, as purely Mongoloid as any people on earth. The lovely, “topless” young maidens of this “lost tribe,” whose very existence is denied by the Indonesian government, perform a kind of water music by slapping their cupped hands against the surface of a nameless, uncharted river. A kind of “Borneo bluegrass” is also played after dark on the nose flute and two strange stringed instruments, the satung and the sapeh.

The Punans find their way through the dense jungles of Borneo by psycho-navigation, like the Australian aborigines, the Dinka of the Sahara and the Bugis seafaring tribes. They are re nowned as the finest weavers of rattan in the world and are noted for their beads, of astonishing age and variety, including beads identical to those extracted from Mesopotamian graves 2,300 years old. Little is known of the Punans’ religion, save that they worship Aping, the forest god.

The deep jungle natives of Borneo include not only the Punans, but the Muruts (who speak several different languages), and various other peoples. In Sabah, there are the Muruts and the Kadazan (formerly called the Dusun). The Kadazan, like the Muruts, speak several different languages. These Mon go loid tribes look very much alike to the untrained eye, but each has its own characteristic social organization and customs. To some extent they have influenced one another since emigrating to the island, but many differences still distinguish their various groups. In particular, they have not evolved a common language, although they have lived for ages as neighbors on the same rivers. They speak a multiplicity of unconnected tongues, each incomprehensible to the next-door communities upstream or downstream (see MacDonald).

Coates disputes the theory of a Chi nese origin for the prehistoric Aus tro nesian or proto-Malay civilization (also called the Pacific or Oceanic civilization). He argues that it is of Pacific origin, perhaps having its starting point in the Gilbert Islands, approximately 4,500 miles east of Java (Islands of the South, by Austin Coates). Whatever the origin of the Austronesian culture, a key fact is that these Caucasoid Malayo-Polynesian people, at their height, spanned the globe from Tahiti and perhaps Easter Island to Madagascar. (An “Indonesian” group of tribes in Madagascar is believed to be descended from settlers from the Sulu Islands.)

Unfortunately, because of the presence of a large mass of incompatible Mela nesians in their center, who were regarded and treated by the majority of Malays as an inferior and unmarriageable people, the Malay- Polynesians became split into an eastern civilization, the Poly nesians, and a western civilization, the Malays and Indonesians, each of which lost all knowledge of their “other half.”

The difference between the continental mind and the Austro nesian mind is illustrated by this contrast: Water, in the form of the endless ocean to the west, was the major obstacle for European explorers in their discovery of the New World. But the Gilbert Islanders have an oral history telling of their own discovery of South America in the distant past. On sighting the Andes after an ocean voyage of four months, they were far from pleased, and according to legend, turned around and sailed in disgust back toward their native atolls. They described South America as “Maiwa,” the wall at the side of the world, four moons’ sail to the eastward, a land which stretches to the north and to the south without end: “beyond the furthest eastward island it lies, a wall of mountains up against the sun.” To these islanders, a continent was an obstacle; to Westerners, an ocean was the obstacle.

The prehistoric Austronesian civilization included the island of Ceylon in the west and the Philippines in the east. Today the Filipinos are considerably sinified, some Filipinos being racially almost indistinguishable from the Chinese. Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) has been even more heavily indianized, and shows no surviving traces of any Malayo-Poly nesian speech. Yet in both these areas much of the Austronesian lifestyle and manner have survived.

The Philippines are the home of eight different “civilized peoples,” sometimes referred to as tribes. There are the Visayans, Tagalogs, Ilocanos, Bicols, Pangasinans, Pampangans, Cagayans and the Zambalans. However, the loose use of the word “tribes” to designate these peoples is very misleading. The truth is that they are the descendants of originally distinct tribes or peoples which have gradually come to resemble each other. There is a marked tendency of the Tagalogs and the Visayans to impose their will on the others. The actual differences between a Tagalog and a Visayan are not great, from an American point of view, but the Tagalogs and Visayans consider them to be considerable.

Oddly as it may seem, there are more sharply distinct dialects spoken in the Philippines than there are peoples. The Visayans, for example, are split three ways among speakers of Cebuano, Ilongo and Cuyuno.

Some Filipinos have wanted to alter their racial stocks by an infusion of white blood. Juan Araneta, a very intelligent Visayan of Negro ancestry, stated around the turn of the 20th century that white blood is the only hope for his people, that if he had his way he would jail every American soldier who did not leave at least three children behind him.

Besides the civilized peoples, there are also the Ifugao, the Igorot, the Manobo, and the Bukidnon, and the wild Tingians of Apayao, who proved the most difficult of the hill tribes of northern Luzon to bring under effective governmental control. There, as in Borneo, headhunting is connected with religious beliefs and observances. As recently as 1967, there were massive genocidally-flavored outbreaks of headhunting and cannibalism by the Dayaks of Borneo.

There is little racial difference be tween southern India and Ceylon, but culturally they are worlds apart. As Coates notes: “The faces on either side of the Palk Strait [separating India from Ceylon] look the same, but whereas in South India they were mournful and solemn, in Ceylon they are cheerful and one hears laughter. It is an entirely different and more relaxed atmosphere, itself a subtle reminder of the Austro nesian character, which everywhere left its imprint.”

Austronesia, as a culture, formerly extended deeply into Southern Asia, including the Indochinese peninsula, much of southern China and northeastern India. The enlargement and expansion of the continental civilizations of the Orient, and in particular the southward expansion of the Chinese culture (which in turn caused large numbers of adjacent peoples, such as Burmese, Thais and Vietnamese to move south into Indochina) had the effect of submerging the Austronesian culture there. Some of the tribal peoples in Burma, southern China and northeastern India, such as the Nagas, represent remote surviving enclaves of Austronesian influence.

The relationship between the Malay and Polynesian languages is not disputed. Certain Moi dialects in southern Annam are also related to this language family. Even the Mundas of Chota Nagpur in India present rather striking likenesses to the “pre-Malays” and the Mois.

Records of actual events in Singapore do not appear until about the 14th century A.D. By this time the island was a small but flourishing center of trade. It had acquired the name, of unknown derivation, of Temasek, which has been interpreted by some as meaning “Sea Town” and by others as meaning “Place of Festivals.” The name “Singapore,” or Sing a pura, was later bestowed upon Tem a sek by the Hindus. But Swetten ham argues that Temasek is not a Malay term at all, and is itself of very ancient South Indian origin. Singa is Sanskrit for “lion” and pura for “town.”

Megalithic monuments are known from the southern Malay peninsula and northern Borneo, as well as in some other locations in the Malay world. One of those places is Sumba, an island south of Komodo, which is the home of the famous “dragons” (actually giant, carnivorous lizards). These megaliths are still raised to honor the dead.

Throughout the Malay archipelago, the sea serves as a link with other peoples. The larger islands have many sizable rivers which are navigable by ship and in places cut through thick jungle which would otherwise be inaccessible, making sea transport essential to the life of the people. The decoration of boats is a cultural necessity, and the decorations are connected with the people’s concepts of the cosmic system. Great care is devoted to their execution, and among them are found examples of the highest artistic skill.

Over the centuries the Malay peninsula area developed into a conglomeration of small sovereign Malay states which proved too weak to resist the encroachments of a succession of outside imperialistic powers. They fell under the empires based in Sumatra, Java or Siam. Not until the century did the indigenous people succeed in gaining control of their own destiny. For a few glorious decades, the whole peninsula formed part of a great Malay empire, with its center in the fortified city of Malice (Malacca).

Malacca was founded by the piratical Hindu prince called Parameswara (mean ing prince consort). He had been forced to flee from Palembang in his native Sumatra in 1377 (when his father- in-law, who ruled the empire of Maj Apahit, Java, destroyed the city for declaring independence) to Old Singa pore, which was then known as Tuma sek. After only eight days in Tumasek, Parameswara had the local ruler, his host, killed, and took control of the city. This ruler had been the son-in-law of the king of Siam, who ordered the ruler of Patani to punish Parameswara by destroying Singapore.

Parameswara was, in turn, forced to flee from Singapore and wound up at Malacca after an undetermined period in Muar. By cleverly converting to Islam and marrying the daughter of the sultan of Pasai about 1414, Parameswara (who now took on the title of Megat Iskandar Shah) was able to make his new town of Malacca the great trading center he wished it to be.

Malacca was destined to become the center from which Islam spread throughout the region. The religion was brought there from northern Sumatra (the states of Pasai and Perlak), where it had been established by traders from India, mostly by Gujerati merchants from the northwest of India, although a convincing case has been made for Islam first having been introduced into Sumatra by merchants from the Coromandel coast. The Hikayat Raja Pasai states that Islam came from south India.

The fact that Islam was brought to this heavily Hinduized region by Indians rather than by Arabs was key to the rapid and peaceful spread of the new religion, as the Moslem Indians did not seek to change traditional customs very much. By about 1414, there was a fairly numerous Moslem trading community in the city. Malacca itself was now firmly established, with the support and protection of the Ming emperors of China, who were useful allies against the Siamese.

During the 15th century Malacca rose to become, in the words of Tome Pires, the 16th century Portuguese apothecary and historian, “of such importance and profit that it seems to me it has no equal in the world.” Although building upon an illustrious past, these were the glory days of the Malay people, in which were established a pattern of government and a lifestyle which was emulated by subsequent Malay kingdoms and became the basis of what was later termed traditional Malay culture and statecraft.

For all its glory, however, Malacca never really succeeded in making the Malay straits its private lake. The northern Malay states of Patani, Kelantan, Trengganu and Kedah continued for a long time to acknowledge the overlordship of Ayudhya (Thailand), and only toward the end of the 15th century was Malacca’s influence really felt there. Even on the opposite side of the strait, Pasai continued as an independent port able to satisfy foreign traders, and Aur too continued to retain its autonomy.

Amok, the "Malay malaise", is one of the few Malay words to enter into the English language, along with ketchup (catsup). The Malays are a very sensitive people, easily offended, with a tendency to contain their anger and hold a grudge. A person who ran amok would be a typical Malay man who broods over a real or fancied affront until he becomes enraged, running through the streets of his village slashing anyone within reach with a machete-like instrument.

In racial terms Indonesia’s population, consisting of hundreds of tribes and ethnic groups, is basically of Malay stock. There are at least 14 major ethnic groups in Indonesia: Atjehnese, Batak, Minan g kabau, Coastal Malay, Sundanese, Java nese, Madurese, Balinese, Dyaks, Makas sarese, Buginese, Torajas, Menandonese, Ambonese, and perhaps a few others. We must not forget the East Timorese, victims of an anti-Christian holocaust starting in 1975. Isolated fighting still continues in East Timor. It remains a very sensitive topic politically. East Timor has been closed to tourists by the Indonesian government.

Each ethnic group in Indonesia occupies its own region, speaks its own language and possesses its own forms of social organization. These communities have a sense of distinctness and a local pride that tend in some circumstances to take precedence over feelings of loyalty to the “nation” (more accurately described as an empire) of Indonesia. Java, of course, has more than half the population of the entire empire, making the ethnic distribution of power quite a lopsided one.

Recent excavations at two sites in northern Thailand have revealed that a metal-using culture was under way there in the fourth millennium B.C.—much earlier than in either China or India. This discovery has overturned the conception of Southeast Asia as a backwater of prehistory, and some experts now speculate that the area was in fact one of the cradles of human cultural development. Archeology has uncovered numerous sites in present-day Kedah which may one day reveal the existence of an important center of civilization in northern Malaya and southern Thailand, according to Ryan. The Malay peninsula’s most important relics of the bronze age, oddly enough, are two kettledrums—one was revealed by a flood in Pahang, and the other was dug up in Selangor by the Japanese in 1944.

Of Thailand (whose name means “Land of the Free”), it is interesting to note that the Thais themselves are relative newcomers to what we now call Thailand, having arrived there from China only about 1,000 years ago. The older name for the country, Siam, etymologically means “dark brown people,” evidently a reference to the difference in skin color by a lighter colored people. Whether this term was first employed by the natives to describe the Thai invaders or vice versa remains problematical.

Fossils of H. sapiens have been found in China and mainland Southeast Asia dating from as early as 60,000 B.C. This compares favorably with the ap pear ance of modern man in other parts of the world, although two imprecisely dated African fossils are said to be more than 90,000 years old. (One theory, as yet neither proved nor disproved, is that modern man could have evolved separately in different regions.) Modern man is known to have inhabited Indonesia, New Guinea and Aus tralia about 40,000 years ago, and possibly earlier.

The empire of Srivajaya (Shrivajaya) in south Sumatra was, from the second half of the seventh to the 13th century A.D., the greatest of the Indonesian sea powers, after Java. Some of the major classical kingdoms and Islamic principalities were Malacca in the north, Melayu and Srivijaya in Sumatra, and Minangkabau on the west coast

In the 13th century, Marco Polo and Rustichello wrote of the numerous Malay kingdoms of the time, which Polo visited after departing from Japan: Chamba; “Java”; Lokak; the island of Malayur; “Lesser Java” with at least eight kingdoms including Ferlec and Basman (where they had wild elephants and “unicorns as big as the elephants”), the “kingdom of Sumatra,” Dagroian, Lambri and Fansur. He also visited the mysterious island of Gauenispola, and the Nicobar and Andaman islands, before moving on to Ceylon. Back in Europe, Polo was scorned for his tall tales of people actually eating the nests of birds, which they boiled over fires of burning black stones. Centuries would elapse before the same black stones would be discovered in Europe, where they would fuel the Industrial Revolution.

The Bugis from the Celebes Islands (especially the port of Macassar) were (and still are) renowned as excellent sailors and mercenary soldiers. They were hired as mercenaries by Sultan Ibra him of Johore in the late 17th century. But once having visited the peninsula, the ferocious Bugis proved hard to get rid of, and were a rising influence throughout the 18th century, despite the very real fear of the fierce Bugis pirates.

It must be noted that once the Dutch gained power in the region, they could not allow a port such as Macassar to compete with them. They conquered it in the 17th century and ruined its trade. This is what forced the Bugis to take up the occupation of piracy. They had learned to use guns and body armor from the Portuguese, and many a South east Asian ruler called on them for help in war.

The most complicated galleys de signed outside the Mediter ranean were Malay. Indeed, while most of their oared craft were single banked, one trireme that was sketched about 1767 had a hull about 105 feet long and 16 feet wide, with double outriggers projecting about 26 feet. There were 25 rowers in each bank and, for added zip, 18 more paddlers on each outrigger.

The Malay pirates were renowned seamen whose skill, daring and just plain lust for blood were the equal of anyone who ever raised the Jolly Roger. Even today, the great Bugis prahus may be seen scything through the seas, the largest working sailing ships left in the world, shaped like the galleons of dreams, streaming softly into port under thousands of feet of black canvas. F

Fells like we are all brother ... :-)

Lumpia , Let's make the thread of this interesting Topic , since the tittle is no longer suit.
Then we asked the moderator to move some of the postings there ...

Haaaahhhh .......
Still ... amazed , asthonished, happy, emotional .... that we are all related ... :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

..
Chinese Trade with Indonesian Empires:

So Austronesian people "mean be nothing to Chinese"? Austonesians "had nothing to trade in value" to the great Chinese huh?.. well its seems Austronesian were pretty important enough for the Chinese to take the trouble to trade with them for high quality storage jars, wax, liquor, vinegar, civet cats, el-nido birds, cotton stockings and hides...

Well as they said these trades are considered as "tributary trade" China didn't go through all the trouble to trade with them, they were the one who offered to trade with China. Chinese history mentioned very little about trade in the philipines or Indonesia, its because its less significant. Much of those products mentioned China already has the ability to make them such as Porcelain,gun powder, wax, liquors and vinegars.
China's trade with the Middle East,India,Thailand,Korea, and Europe were much more important to China, like the silk road.

The world's finest sailors

http://members.fortunecity.com/dikigoros/themalays.htm

Of Thailand (whose name means “Land of the Free”), it is interesting to note that the Thais themselves are relative newcomers to what we now call Thailand, having arrived there from China only about 1,000 years ago. The older name for the country, Siam, etymologically means “dark brown people,” evidently a reference to the difference in skin color by a lighter colored people. Whether this term was first employed by the natives to describe the Thai invaders or vice versa remains problematical.



That 's very interesting. I think the word "Siam" is referred to the native people before the Thais came here. The Thai always called themselves "Tai" not "Siamese". Before the Thais arrived here from China, The Funan kingdom was here and known by the chinese as the negretos kingdom. The pure Thai/Tai race (recently proved by mitochondrial DNA analysis from Chulalongkorn University studies) which now can only be found in southern china, north vietnam and north and Northeastern Thailand have lighter skin colour than the southern part of the country (including Bangkok) which have mixed with other races for thousand years. This also apply to the whole Mainland south east asian people.

The word " Sayam " originated from a Pali word "Sama" which means " black, yellow, green, golden color ". ( Pali-English Dictionary , Rhys Davids, The Pali Text Society, London) .

Siam " is a variant spelling of " Sayam ". Different ethnics have different pronunciations, e.g. Sien by Chinese , Shan or Sham by Burmese, Sem by Mon , Suem or Sem or Siem by Cambodian, and Siao by Portuguese.

The people of today Thailand have the same pronunciation for both of the words "Tai" and "Thai " which they use to call themselves and their language.

P. A. Thomson wrote in "Siam; J. B Millet Co, Boston 1910, p. 22

" In the south the Tai-Shans mingled with Malays and Cambodians,and their descendants are darker than those of their cousins, who remained behind in the highlands of the north. It will be convenient to speak henceforth of this southern branch of Tai-Shan race as the Siamese, while the northern branch is divided into the Laos on the east, and the Shans on the west.

Simon de La Loubere, a French envoy to Ayutthaya in 1687 wrote in his " A New Historical Relation of the Kingdom of Siam ( 1693, p 6-7) that " The name of Siam is unknown to the Siamese…..The Siamese give to themselves the name of Tai or Free .....And those that understand the Language of Pegu, affirm that Siam in that Tongue signifies Free.....In a word, the Siamese, of whom I treat, do call themselves Tai Noi"

Taiwanese aborigines shout slogans as they demand an apology from Vice President Annette Lu during a rally outside the Presidential Office, Saturday, July 24, 2004, in Taipei, Taiwan. Earlier this month, Lu said a vanished race of "black pygmies," not the existing aborigines, were Taiwan's first inhabitants. About 2,000 protesters, many of them wearing red or white embroidered jackets, demanded outspoken Annette Lu to apologize for what they see as insulting remarks. (AP Photo/Jerome Favre)


http://sg.yimg.com/xp/ap/20040724/2238944042.jpg

An interesting perception of the Malay people (Austronesian).

http://www.iht.com/articles/529163.html


Translating a shared culture and geopolitical concerns into common policy is hard. The Malay lands of island and peninsular Southeast Asia have scant record of political cohesion. Historically, states have been transient. In contrast to the Chinese world, they have no tradition of strong bureaucracies holding states together and imposing a state ideology. But their traditions of patron-client relationships, of relatively high levels of religious and behavioral tolerance, their instincts of loyalty to individuals rather than institutions or ideologies may accord quite well with the modernity of the ballot box.

lol annette lu is a crazy woman imo

Taiwanese aborigines shout slogans as they demand an apology from Vice President Annette Lu during a rally outside the Presidential Office, Saturday, July 24, 2004, in Taipei, Taiwan. Earlier this month, Lu said a vanished race of "black pygmies," not the existing aborigines, were Taiwan's first inhabitants. About 2,000 protesters, many of them wearing red or white embroidered jackets, demanded outspoken Annette Lu to apologize for what they see as insulting remarks. (AP Photo/Jerome Favre)


http://sg.yimg.com/xp/ap/20040724/2238944042.jpg
Actually, Lu's claim was sorta true :D.. In Southeast Asia BOTH Melanesian and Proto-Malays were the original inhabitanmd of SE Asia: Proto-Malays inhabiting the south-china/indo-china mainland, the Melanesians inhabiting Island-SE-Asian groups. Proto-Malays started fleeing Southern China for Taiwan and the Philippines when the first Han Chinese started to push south from the far north. Both Malays and Melanesians are under the Austronesian blanket though; and are related ethnically, through language and in many cases culturally.. the difference in that the Melanesians are much darker in skin colour and of a smaller build than that of the lighter skinned; slightly stockier build Proto-Malays that moved into island asia..

Melanesian kids from Vanuatu:
http://www.friendly-bungalows-tanna-vanuatu.com/images/girls-custom.jpg

Proto-Malay Badjau man from the Sulu Seas between borneo and mindanao:
http://www.borneotravel.com/borneobook/pix/pics/BAJAU.JPG

Both Proto-Malays and Melanesians had been living together in harmony for many thousands of years; sharing culture and language, although not always sharing identity: the Melanesian groups have been in the distant past been known to be written off as inferior by certain Malay groups ever since Mainland-Asian ideals of beauty (such as fair skin, slender build and straight hair being racial "preferables") were passed on through Chinese and Indian influence on Malay culture)

More Melanesian "Aeta" peoples, this time from the philippines:
http://www.irisfilm.de/webscans/neg1356.jpg

http://hachinoko.ld.infoseek.co.jp/aeta.JPG

In the philippines it is accepted that the "Aeta/Ati" (as they are called there) were the original inhabitants of the islands when the first Proto-Malay peoples arrived by boat from Taiwan and in the later "shockwaves" of austronesian migrations back to the philippines from Malaya and Oceania through Borneo.

In Malaysia, a mixed Melanesian/Proto-Malay people are deemed by the Malay bulk as the "Orang Asli" or "Original Peoples" of peninsular Malaya before the arrival of Proto-Malays from the North. Various intermixing between gorups has given todays Riau Malays varying appearances.

In Indonesia there has been a mixture of Malay and Melanesian for many millenia, resulting in a contrasting population. From Sumatra and Java, where natives are more Proto-Malay in ancestry and appearance, to island groups like Sulawesi, Flores and Irian Jaya, where people are more Melanesian and Papuan in appearance and ancestry.

U can see in this pictures form the Philippines the varying physical features of the Austronesian peoples due to the intial varying intermixing between Melanesians and Proto-Malay:

http://www.adnamis.org/MinPhotos/80100ABSC.jpg

It was the main mixtures between both Proto-Malay and Melanesian which result in the wide range of Austronesian peoples today: Polynesians and Micronesian being more an equal mix between Melansian and Proto-Malay, the Malayan of today being It was a marriage of two physically contrasting but culturally and ethnically related peoples.

Most of the Taiwanese indigenous tribes on the other hand seem more Sino-fied over the centuries of admixture from the Han Chinese, and it may be understandable that form their point of view, there was no way that MElanesian gorups would have played a part in their existance. On the other hand, this whole protest was probably not due to ignorance of the facts (i'm pretty sure many Taiwanese indigenous peoples do know of their relation to brown-skinned Malays through legend etc): but because a Han Chinese person in power ( in other words Vice President Annette Lu ;)) is downplaying the contribution that todays taiwanese indigenous peoples had made to the forming of Taiwan; and that can be seen by many Austronesian taiwanese as a type of state-condoned racism. For instance, in South Africa during Arpartheid; dutch-caucasian "Afrikaans" people stated sovereignty over the land due to the claim that the dutch had arrived in south africa at about the same time as the Bantu African gorups who migrated from Zimbabwe (which is obviously a lie: Bantu Africans groups are the indigenous peopels of African Continent; how can poeple who have lived in a place for many many millenia not know a small part of it? culturally they were adapted to the cimate and the terrain of the area, compared with caucasian dutch who freshly land in S.A and claim no one lived there already.. seems illogical).. so, if u consider it in that context; u can see the logic of their protest.. :D

Actually, Lu's claim was sorta true :D.. In Southeast Asia BOTH Melanesian and Proto-Malays were the original inhabitanmd of SE Asia: Proto-Malays inhabiting the south-china/indo-china mainland, the Melanesians inhabiting Island-SE-Asian groups. Proto-Malays started fleeing Southern China for Taiwan and the Philippines when the first Han Chinese started to push south from the far north. Both Malays and Melanesians are under the Austronesian blanket though; and are related ethnically, through language and in many cases culturally.. the difference in that the Melanesians are much darker in skin colour and of a smaller build than that of the lighter skinned; slightly stockier build Proto-Malays that moved into island asia.. :D

Taiwanese aborigine
de:Indigene_Völker_Asiens#Indigene_Völker_Taiwans ja:台湾原住民 zh-tw:台灣原住民 zh-cn:高山族

Taiwanese aborigines or aboriginal peoples (原住民, in pinyin: yuánzhùmín, literal meaning: "Original Inhabitants") are the indigenous peoples of Taiwan. They are a group of Austronesian people, who are descended from the inhabitants of Taiwan who lived on the island before Han immigration in the 1600s.

Today, most tribes that the Republic of China (ROC) recognizes are concentrated in the highland mountains of Taiwan and speak a linguistic grouping of archaic Formosan languages, which belong to the Austronesian (Malayo-Polynesian) language family. The total population of these tribes is around 400,000 as of 2004


Taiwanese aborigines recognized by the ROC government include the following tribes:

Amis ('Amis; Pangcah) 阿美
Atayal (Tayal, Tayan) 泰雅
Atayal (proper)
Truku (Taroko) 太魯閣
Sediq 賽德克
Bunun 布農
Kavalan 噶瑪蘭族
Paiwan 排灣
Puyuma 卑南
Rukai 魯凱
Saisiyat (Saisiat) 賽夏
Tsou (Cou) 鄒
Northern Tsou
Southern Tsou
Thao 邵
Yami (Tao) 雅美/達悟
The Amis, Kavalan and Tsou are sometimes regarded as "lowland" tribes.

Non-recognized tribes include:

Arikun
Babuza
Basay
Hoanya
Ketagalan
Lloa
Luilang
Pazeh (Pazih)
Popora
Qaugaut
Siraya
Taokas
Trobiawan

Taiwanese aborigine
de:Indigene_Völker_Asiens#Indigene_Völker_Taiwans ja:台湾原住民 zh-tw:台灣原住民 zh-cn:高山族

Taiwanese aborigines or aboriginal peoples (原住民, in pinyin: yuánzhùmín, literal meaning: "Original Inhabitants") are the indigenous peoples of Taiwan. They are a group of Austronesian people, who are descended from the inhabitants of Taiwan who lived on the island before Han immigration in the 1600s.

Today, most tribes that the Republic of China (ROC) recognizes are concentrated in the highland mountains of Taiwan and speak a linguistic grouping of archaic Formosan languages, which belong to the Austronesian (Malayo-Polynesian) language family. The total population of these tribes is around 400,000 as of 2004


Taiwanese aborigines recognized by the ROC government include the following tribes:

Amis ('Amis; Pangcah) 阿美
Atayal (Tayal, Tayan) 泰雅
Atayal (proper)
Truku (Taroko) 太魯閣
Sediq 賽德克
Bunun 布農
Kavalan 噶瑪蘭族
Paiwan 排灣
Puyuma 卑南
Rukai 魯凱
Saisiyat (Saisiat) 賽夏
Tsou (Cou) 鄒
Northern Tsou
Southern Tsou
Thao 邵
Yami (Tao) 雅美/達悟
The Amis, Kavalan and Tsou are sometimes regarded as "lowland" tribes.

Non-recognized tribes include:

Arikun
Babuza
Basay
Hoanya
Ketagalan
Lloa
Luilang
Pazeh (Pazih)
Popora
Qaugaut
Siraya
Taokas
Trobiawan
Wahh! nice insight into the Many austronesian peoples in Taiwan.:okay: Its so bad that so many tribes are being ignored by the Taiwanese govt.. i can understand why they get so angry at Annette Lu's remarks, regardless of whether its true of not: the import of what she was saying is that "U tribes that claim u inhabited Taiwan before us chinese claiming for more recognition form us are actually not even original inhabitants at all, so quit whining and let us Sino-fy u" :(

The Taiwanese tribes' closest relations among all austronesian peoples are the various tribes of the philippines, just south from them:

Ibaloi Woman and Child form the Central luzon highland mountains, Philippines:
http://www.pahof.de/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_7154/54502.jpg

Bontok dancers from Central Luzon Highland provinces, Phils: Note the chaklag tattoo design on the man's chest and the pongo tattoo design on the women's arms:
http://starbulletin.com/1999/04/22/features/artb.jpg

Ifugao women of the central Luzon Highlands their way to market, Phils:
http://www.pahof.de/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_7154/ww-P-Luz-MP-4f.jpg

Philippine Ivatan woman wearing a vakul or a traditonal woman's headress made from voyavoy palm fibre, worn to protect women from the harsh weather conditions on these far-northern islands closest to Taiwan. the Ivatan are the exact same people as the Yami of Orchid island in Taiwan:
http://www.jonifeliciano.com/pics/adv_04.jpg

T'boli woman in traditional dress at market, Mindanao, Phils:
http://www.actionreporter.com/001.monde/008.philippines/vieille_big.jpg

Kalinga Elderly-Man visitng Sagada, Central Luzon highlands, Philippines:
http://www2.seasite.niu.edu/PicDB/Phil/01195.jpg

Manuvu Elderly Man from Mindanao, Phils:
http://aedv.cs.tu-berlin.de/~brandeis/Bilder/manobo-l.jpg

i can understand why they get so angry at Annette Lu's remarks, regardless of whether its true of not: the import of what she was saying is that "U tribes that claim u inhabited Taiwan before us chinese claiming for more recognition form us are actually not even original inhabitants at all, so quit whining and let us Sino-fy u" :(
I wouldn't say "sino-fy" because Annette Lu, along with all the other TI-supporting extremists don't even think of themselves as Chinese

If you guys still interested to know more about austronesian people/ languauges.
Here is the whole PhD thesis about it by Murry P. Cox of the University of Otago, New Zealand. The mitochondrial DNA analysis were used to analyzed the genome data of austronesian people from Indonesia, madagasgar and vanuatu.

here is the entire PhD thesis.
http://www.human-evol.cam.ac.uk/Members/Cox/pubs/EntireThesis.pdf

I think Hong Kong is in south east Asia too right?

I think Hong Kong is in south east Asia too right?
If Taiwan is then Hong Kong, and other parts of southern China, definitely are too.

Published on Aug 7, 2004

Asean must maintain a "central role" in the process of creating an East Asia Community that would strengthen political and economic ties in the region, Foreign Ministry director-general for Asean Kitti Wasinondh said yesterday.

"Thailand has supported the setting-up of an East Asia Community [EAC] and a summit to be held on the issue next year in Malaysia. We believe that it is time Asean extended its cooperation," Kitti said.

Kitti was responding to yesterday's news report in the Financial Times that said China, Malaysia and Japan were making a move to create an EAC regional-type grouping.

The FT wrote that such a group "could mark a coming of age for regional institutions, which have long been split between North and Southeast Asia or established in the shadow of the US". The formation "would also downgrade the role of the 21-member Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation [Apec] forum, whose diverse members [include] the US, Australia, New Zealand and several South American countries".

The proposed community would include all 10 Asean members (Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Singapore, the Philippines and Brunei), China, Japan and South Korea.

The idea for such a grouping was first advanced in the early 1990s by former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad.

Mahathir's proposed name for the group was the East Asia Economic Caucus. But his idea was shot down by Tokyo because it excluded other Pacific powers, including the US, Australia and New Zealand.

Afterwards an informal grouping, Asean Plus Three (China, Japan and South Korea), began meeting for annual summits.

Last July at the annual Asean summit of foreign ministers in Jakarta, Asean Plus Three agreed to explore the concept and definition of a potential East Asia regional grouping.

It was agreed that Asean nations should come to the table as one and maintain a central role in defining the pace, direction and concept of any potential EAC.

Kitti dismissed concerns the EAC would dilute Apec, and said any decisions on the issue would be reached by all concerned countries. He said the mechanics of the grouping would be discussed at the Malaysian summit.

"Asean Plus Three will meet to discuss the concept, agenda and format of the summit. We will discuss how often we will meet and whether forum-hosting countries will be rotated," Kitti said.

A meeting of Asean senior officials this month in Kuala Lumpur is expected to explore this concept and the direction the EAC will take.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Sihasak Phuangketkeow said the evolution of the organisation should be conducted in a step-by-step process as the entire region moved towards establishing an East Asia identity.

"Perhaps after the first summit it will clearer how this community will evolve," Sihasak said.

Asean officials said there was growing concern among smaller countries in the group that if the EAC concept was not properly defined the interests of larger countries would swallow their own.

Marisa Chimprabha, Don Pathan

THE NATION

but definitely east timor will formally join the ASEAN, they are discussing it right now in the 12th asean summit in the philippines

I 'm not interesting about this shit at all. why did you post in here?

Taiwan is higher IQ place like mainland China...

I 'm not interesting about this shit at all. why did you post in here?

Taiwan is higher IQ place like mainland China...

This is true due to Taiwan is more developed.

Referring the concept of whelther Taiwan or Hongkong is belong to Asean or not, i would say that in geographic is yes but for the culture even Vietnam is not apart of ASEAN. Vietnam have east asia culture like chinese and korea and even the kind of people!

This is true due to Taiwan is more developed.

Referring the concept of whelther Taiwan or Hongkong is belong to Asean or not, i would say that in geographic is yes but for the culture even Vietnam is not apart of ASEAN. Vietnam have east asia culture like chinese and korea and even the kind of people!

East Asia culture...what is it anyway.

I've only known things like Chinese cultures, Japanese cultures, or Korean cultures, etc... but East Asian culture? seriously it doesn't quite exist.

Yes, it does exist.

East Asia culture...what is it anyway.

I've only known things like Chinese cultures, Japanese cultures, or Korean cultures, etc... but East Asian culture? seriously it doesn't quite exist.
It does exist if you live in western countries you should know what it means.

I 'm not interesting about this shit at all. why did you post in here?

Taiwan is higher IQ place like mainland China...

My goodness! You think that people from East Timor are less intelligent because their country is less developed than Taiwan or mainland China?!? It was that kind of attitude that the Europeans and Americans used to justify enslaving the Africans. By your own argument your saying that Europeans have higher IQs than Chinese because Europe is more developed than China. I don't believe for one minute that because I am European I am more intelligent than you, to think in such ways is racism, it's as simple as that!

I'm sorry for the over the top response but I hate racism in any form, you cannot complain about racism against the Chinese on this forum if you make culturally supremacist remarks degrading the people of another nation, whether it's East Timor or anywhere else! :bash:

That's indeed racism, however for these kinda comments, most people always choose ignoring it... :cheers:

Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but IQ indeed is a way to separate East Asia to South Asia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/92/AverageIQ-Map-World.png/800px-AverageIQ-Map-World.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but IQ indeed is a way to separate East Asia to South Asia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/92/AverageIQ-Map-World.png/800px-AverageIQ-Map-World.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

Hainan province has such a low average IQ? :nuts:

HK is the highest IQ place in the world, China is comparably low. SInce HKers are Chinese, I guess it's because China's various ethnic makeup. I guess Hainan has many aborigines who has lower IQ...

It does exist if you live in western countries you should know what it means.

Well, as a matter of fact, I have never heard of such a term before. I've heard about Eastern cultures and Western cultures, not sure if it's what you guys meant.

I agree that Taiwan is still East Asia because of it's strong tie with mainland China, and I do not consider any other countries other than CHINA (PRC and ROC combined), Korea and Japan to be countries of East Asia that have Eastern Asian cultures, which if you guys insist that is in existence. Other foreign cultures, being formerly influenced by ancient Chinese cultures or not, should be categorized otherwise.

China nowadays is influenced greatly by western cultures: we wear costumes, we drink cokes, we even have western style weddings, cities like Shanghai are full of occidentalised architectures, but we still have distinguishing cultures than countries like the USA, England, France...I will not call China a country of western culture.



HK is the highest IQ place in the world, China is comparably low. SInce HKers are Chinese, I guess it's because China's various ethnic makeup. I guess Hainan has many aborigines who has lower IQ...

Well Hong Kong does have the highest ave. IQ, some one or two points higher than S.Korea and Japan, but you guys have to bear in mind that HK is just a city, and I am not sure if it's safe to say that the ave. IQ of Hongkong is higher than that of places like Tokyo....

Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but IQ indeed is a way to separate East Asia to South Asia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/92/AverageIQ-Map-World.png/800px-AverageIQ-Map-World.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

yea and the data used the average of Chinese and Thai IQ to equate Vietnamese IQ. how scientific indeed :banana: BTW half of the kids that were tested as East Asians IQ in America were Vietnamese descendants.

BTW, Vietnam always rank consistently only behind China in International Math Olympiad beating both South Korea and Japan.
http://imo.math.ca/results/TCBY.html

China nowadays is influenced greatly by western cultures

the so called western culture are not western at all, in western culture, people were suppose to wear hour-glass dress, write on animal skin instead of a piece of paper, fighting with a stick instead with gun powder.

1. Highrise =/ occidentalised architectures, besides most Chinese highrise is patheticly in CHinese typical style(commie box), others like jin mao are so in CHinese culture...

2. of course different countries have different culture. What duskdawn means eastern culture in western eyes. Like most CHinese couldn't tell what's England culture or what's Italy culture. For them, they are all western culture...

3. cities=/ high IQ, even though there may be more educated people. However the more people there, the more average the IQ is. That's statistics...

I think most westerners could tell a Chinese city from a european city even a American city...

Oh I forgot, IQ also is related to urbanization. In Vietnam, study shows that students' IQ in cities in average is about 106.67, while in isolated rural areas it dips down into the 80s

yea and the data used the average of Chinese and Thai IQ to equate Vietnamese IQ. how scientific indeed :banana: BTW half of the kids that were tested as East Asians IQ in America were Vietnamese descendants.

BTW, Vietnam always rank consistently only behind China in International Math Olympiad beating both South Korea and Japan.
http://imo.math.ca/results/TCBY.html

It's just a research, not so accurate... Besides I always feel that Vietnam belongs to East Asia since she's so close to CHina in both culture and geography. South east Asia is more insular thing to me... :cheers:

Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but IQ indeed is a way to separate East Asia to South Asia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/92/AverageIQ-Map-World.png/800px-AverageIQ-Map-World.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

This proves my point! You can't say how intelligent people are based on how developed their country is! China has the highest average IQ on the map and yet Europe and N. America would be considered more developed yet they have lower IQs. Also what about poor old Australia, they seem to come out as most stupid! They're developed.

The white are almost equally high IQ people as Eastern Asian, the reason why they are darker in this map is because they are mixed society, and the white control the society.

There's a report from US said that because of China's high IQ, China could grow this fast today. But it doesn't mean China has more geniuses, Indian may have more geniuses than China.

Besides whether a country is developed depends on the history. You can't deny that the so called miracles are always happened in East Aisan regions like Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore(mostly CHinese), HK...

I don't feel comfortable to talk about it any more. Let's change to another topic... ^^

Let's change to another topic...
I agree, sorry to bring it up but I didn't want to let that original comment go without my challenging it. Now there's no more need to discuss this.

face the fact, your days are gone...

China stands the longest history...

The most powerful country among the world for more than thousands of year...

Send human to sapce and success return, third in the world.

develop and built modern military aircraft, engine, missile by itself. Fourth in the world, No 1 in asia.

even now the biggest human developing process...

Speed, hundreds of million poors citizen redemption work finished in last 30 years...


from a death poor country to have more than 1 trillion USD reserve, NO 1 in the world, just in 20 years... earn 170 billion USD at 2006 during trade.

Second largest of AUTO market in the world.

From Asia sick Man to Asia No 1.

Built the best Tokamak system in the world by itself.

The No 1 consumer market in the world.

PPP value(2006) more than 9 trillion USD. No 2 in the world.

the Biggest telecom company is chinese now.

Top 10 banks in the world, sorry chinese have three of ten.

Etc, etc... too much I can't say it all...

The highest IQ nation shows the fact about China...

Quite funny how much conclusions some of you can get from a map which actually should not be taken too much seriously.

"Proponents of partly-genetic explanations of race/IQ correlation have often been criticized because much of their work is funded by the Pioneer Fund. The Pioneer Fund has, in turn, been criticized for poor research methods, and even more strongly characterized by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group."

Personally I think RAZE or Ethnic group has nothing to do with intelligence. C'mon...
----

This topic about Taiwan being or not from South East Asia kinda reminds me about "WEST" and "SOUTH" in Europe.

financial way, what's the matter with you?? Your ultranationalism embarrasses your nation... :bash: :bash:

Sorry, i can't control myself since I saw A british talking about racism. so funny!

Is there any racism in black slaver trading business, never heard of liverpool?

I have been to liverpool and wales, Liverpool is a poor and dirty villiage today, from a poor villiage to a huge port after successful black slaver trading business, now change back to poor villiage again. I won't be there anymore since my life.


Never heard of opium war? Is there any racism at all?

It's good you keep nation disgrace in mind, however don't say it out time by time. Today's Britain is totally different country from what she is 200 years ago. I think it's better to think what we can do than blame her again and again... :cheers:

HK is the highest IQ place in the world, China is comparably low. SInce HKers are Chinese, I guess it's because China's various ethnic makeup. I guess Hainan has many aborigines who has lower IQ...

I don't think IQ studies were done in Hainan. It is probably a mistake in drawing the map.

This proves my point! You can't say how intelligent people are based on how developed their country is! China has the highest average IQ on the map and yet Europe and N. America would be considered more developed yet they have lower IQs. Also what about poor old Australia, they seem to come out as most stupid! They're developed.

The IQ of Australia refers to the IQ of aboriginal. The IQ of America refers to the IQ of American Indians. Check wikipedia to learn more about this topic.

The Chinese should not be too euphoric and serious about the IQ data. Those IQ data might not mean much. Most intellectual works of the world so far are done by Europeans.

Oh I forgot, IQ also is related to urbanization. In Vietnam, study shows that students' IQ in cities in average is about 106.67, while in isolated rural areas it dips down into the 80s

My limited experience told me that Vietnamese are most intelligent among people in South East Asia. The only country that defeated America is Vietnam. Vietnam has a good chance to catch up soon.

Vietnam has chinese culture background.

vietnam is more east asia than southeast.

vietnam will be small size of china in the next 20 years...

I like vietnam, I have been there...

My limited experience told me that Vietnamese are most intelligent among people in South East Asia. The only country that defeated America is Vietnam. Vietnam has a good chance to catch up soon.

I agree with your point of view.

Vietnam has chinese culture background.

vietnam is more east asia than southeast.

vietnam will be small size of china in the next 20 years...

I like vietnam, I have been there...

I do not think most Vietnamese people would agree with your first sentence.

I still prefer to believe that each country on earth has its distinguishing culture back ground, therefore, I suppose it's safer to say that Vietnam has a background of their own Vietnamese culture which was heavily influenced by ancient Chinese cultures.

Vietnam, geographically, is unarguably a South Eastern nation in SEA of which countries are defined by their respective geographic locations.

Poland, which had been heavily influenced by Western European countries like France and Germany, is never said to be a western European country.

I agree with your point of view.



I do not think most Vietnamese people would agree with your first sentence.

I still prefer to believe that each country on earth has its distinguishing culture back ground, therefore, I suppose it's safer to say that Vietnam has a background of their own Vietnamese culture which was heavily influenced by ancient Chinese cultures.

Vietnam, geographically, is unarguably a South Eastern nation in SEA of which countries are defined by their respective geographic locations.

Poland, which had been heavily influenced by Western European countries like France and Germany, is never said to be a western European country.

I'm a Vietnamese, and i agrees with that point, Vietnamese own 80% common in term of culture to chinese, we used to be a country, but remember that, it is not china, it may be the national in the past. We never belong to chinese, but we come from same source to them! People can argue on this point (my great farther also a old chinese but i'm a current Vietnamese)

And in think in china, the rural people dont even know how to speak putong hua! there IQ just show in the cities only! But anyway, it is really hard to tell the different in IQ between Vietnamese, Korean, Janpanese, and Chinese cos we have mostly same genetic! the differrent just because of the level of Develope. One Vietnamese being born in China will look 100% like Chinese and Vice versa!

Most intellectual works of the world so far are done by Europeans.
That may be true if you're just talking about RECENT history, as in the past 500 years or so. But before that, Chinese, Indians and Arabs made our fair share of scientific advances...

Also, in many Western countries today, many discoveries and advances are made by people from other countries, not necessarily those of European descent.

My limited experience told me that Vietnamese are most intelligent among people in South East Asia. The only country that defeated America is Vietnam. Vietnam has a good chance to catch up soon.
Vietnam never defeated America. Not a single Vietnamese soldiers ever set foot on U.S. soil. The only thing Vietnam did was expelling the American invasion forces.

U.S. had much disadvantages during the Vietnam War, among them are lack of support from the American public, not fighting for a "good" cause, and being unfamiliar with Vietnam's jungle terrain. Vietnam on the other hand, was fighting to defend their home and didn't have much to lose and had the support of its people and was familiar with the terrain.

Do you honestly believe Vietnam could've truly defeated the U.S. back in 70's, or heck, today?

Also, expelling U.S. forces has nothing to do with Vietnamese people's intelligence of their chances of "catching up"...

Poland, which had been heavily influenced by Western European countries like France and Germany, is never said to be a western European country.
It depends on how you define Western and Easter Europe. According to the Cold War term, Poland is definitely in Eastern Europe as it was on the side of the former Soviet Union. As for pure geographical location, it's difficult to say as there is no clear line between Western and Eastern Europe.

I'm a Vietnamese, and i agrees with that point, Vietnamese own 80% common in term of culture to chinese, we used to be a country, but remember that, it is not china, it may be the national in the past. We never belong to chinese, but we come from same source to them! People can argue on this point (my great farther also a old chinese but i'm a current Vietnamese)
I'm not sure what you mean, perhaps you could restate that clearly.

Until I understand your point, all I can say is Vietnam's relation with China is a long and complex one and it's not simple and black and white...

And in think in china, the rural people dont even know how to speak putong hua!
Says who?

there IQ just show in the cities only!
Care to provide evidence?

But anyway, it is really hard to tell the different in IQ between Vietnamese, Korean, Janpanese, and Chinese cos we have mostly same genetic! the differrent just because of the level of Develope.
ALL humans have mostly the same genetic make-up... heck, even chimps and humans only vary by like 1%...

One Vietnamese being born in China will look 100% like Chinese and Vice versa!
Physical appearance doesn't have much to do with intelligence or IQ.

I'm sick of that map, they're smart and stupid people everywhere. And we've been drifted far from the topic's subject.

And the Vietnam war was not just running and shooting in the jungle between Viet Congs and GIs. That was a complex and massive political battle between ideologies that have determined the world in the 20th century. There were carpet bombings, total destruction of several cities, terrorist bombings from Thailand to Hawaii and mass exodus. It could be another country, like Korea, or Indonesia that could have been the focus of this clash and have "defeated" the America with great sacrifice.

the rural people dont even know how to speak putong hua!

which does NOT mean a lower IQ

which does NOT mean a lower IQ

The IQ base on the knowledge you owned and how quick you settle the information. For the one who can speak mandarin mean they did not have education, thus, there is no idea on math, literature etc. so that there IQ must be very low.

Anywat, IQ is not everything, in my office most of people can do better than 120! But we are not really intelligent to compare with the seller in the street!

I wont discuss on this topic anymore, it is really hard to say who is more intelligent!

Stop arguing about IQ, and christianhoang, you need more knowledge of IQ...

in my opinion, the iq was in fact, the capacity to think, like cpu, different cpu has different speed, some cpu can process more data than others within the time limit.

first, during the iq test, they will ask question in a very plain, simple way to make sure you understand. therefore the iq doesn't involve how much language skill you have already got, it has nothing to do with your phd or high school degree. as in fact, bigger kids doesn't mean higher iq.

so IQ has only to do with how well, and how fast you can think,, regardless of your past achievement or experience or your ....

And in think in china, the rural people dont even know how to speak putong hua! there IQ just show in the cities only! But anyway, it is really hard to tell the different in IQ between Vietnamese, Korean, Janpanese, and Chinese cos we have mostly same genetic! the differrent just because of the level of Develope. One Vietnamese being born in China will look 100% like Chinese and Vice versa!


I like your fact-based view of history. This is much better than Korean's view and some Taiwanese view of history. Some Koreans try to deny historical facts to strengthen their national identity and some Taiwanese try to deny historical facts to strengthen their political entity.

That may be true if you're just talking about RECENT history, as in the past 500 years or so. But before that, Chinese, Indians and Arabs made our fair share of scientific advances....
Also, in many Western countries today, many discoveries and advances are made by people from other countries, not necessarily those of European descent.

If you had ever read the Euclid's "Element" or Aristol's works , you would not have wondered why modern science and math were developed in Europe but not China. Ancient Chinese were good in ethics and strategy studies, empirical data collection, and large engineering project, but lacked rationalism in the view of nature. Chinese understanding of logics was vague and unsystematic until late 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristole



Vietnam never defeated America. Not a single Vietnamese soldiers ever set foot on U.S. soil. The only thing Vietnam did was expelling the American invasion forces.

U.S. had much disadvantages during the Vietnam War, among them are lack of support from the American public, not fighting for a "good" cause, and being unfamiliar with Vietnam's jungle terrain. Vietnam on the other hand, was fighting to defend their home and didn't have much to lose and had the support of its people and was familiar with the terrain. .

I said Vietnam defeated America. I did not say Vietnam conquered America. Losing internal public support is a mechanism of being defeated.

If you had ever read the Euclid's "Element" or Aristol's works , you would not have wondered why modern science and math were developed in Europe but not China. Ancient Chinese were good in ethics and strategy studies, empirical data collection, and large engineering project, but lacked rationalism in the view of nature. Chinese understanding of logics was vague and unsystematic until late 19th century.


Greek philosphy is not "Western" per se as at Euclid's time "Europe" or the "West" was not even an idea. The foundation of Greek philosophy is "oriental" Babylon, Sumer, Persia, Phoenicia and semitic Egypt. Western Europeans have the great ability claim credit for a lot of things that are not theirs. What did the barbaric Viking or Germanic tribes have to do with the sophisticated hellenic culture at that time?

Greek philosphy is not "Western" per se as at Euclid's time "Europe" or the "West" was not even an idea. The foundation of Greek philosophy is "oriental" Babylon, Sumer, Persia, Phoenicia and semitic Egypt. Western Europeans have the great ability claim credit for a lot of things that are not theirs. What did the barbaric Viking or Germanic tribes have to do with the sophisticated hellenic culture at that time?
After Renaissance, Learning Greek and Latin languages was prerequisite for Europeans to be considered as intellectuals. Europeans consider Hellentic culture as the root of their civilization.

But anyway, it is really hard to tell the different in IQ between Vietnamese, Korean, Janpanese, and Chinese cos we have mostly same genetic! the differrent just because of the level of Develope. One Vietnamese being born in China will look 100% like Chinese and Vice versa!

ALL humans have mostly the same genetic make-up... heck, even chimps and humans only vary by like 1%...


It is true that Vietnamese have genes closer (abeit not identical genetic make up) to Chinese, in particular southern Chinese, than other Southeast Asians. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish Vietnamese individuals from Chinese.

After Renaissance, Learning Greek and Latin languages was prerequisite for Europeans to be considered as intellectuals. Europeans consider Hellentic culture as the root of their civilization.

Learning Greek and Latin has always been part of the theological education even in medieval Europe. Latin was the language of the aristocracy and clerics, never understood by the commons. Europeans started to claim hellenic culture to be their cultural root very late, actually long after the Renaissance.

It is true that Vietnamese have genes closer (abeit not identical genetic make up) to Chinese, in particular southern Chinese, than other Southeast Asians. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish Vietnamese individuals from Chinese.
It's rather ignorant to say "Vietnamese have genes closer to Chinese". Vietnamese, namely the Kinh ethnic group, is a very mixed people, just like Chinese, namely the Han ethnic group.

Yes it is SOMETIMES difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish SOME Vietnamese individuals from Chinese, but those cases are in the minority and is not uniform.

It's rather ignorant to say "Vietnamese have genes closer to Chinese". Vietnamese, namely the Kinh ethnic group, is a very mixed people, just like Chinese, namely the Han ethnic group.

Yes it is SOMETIMES difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish SOME Vietnamese individuals from Chinese, but those cases are in the minority and is not uniform.

I can't agree more.:)

Sorry, i can't control myself since I saw A british talking about racism. so funny!

Is there any racism in black slaver trading business, never heard of liverpool?

I have been to liverpool and wales, Liverpool is a poor and dirty villiage today, from a poor villiage to a huge port after successful black slaver trading business, now change back to poor villiage again. I won't be there anymore since my life.


Never heard of opium war? Is there any racism at all?

Oh for f**k sake, those events happened more than 150 years before I was born, HOW DARE YOU condemn me for events that happened before my lifetime! I do not hold you responsible for things you have no control over. I cannot change what my country did all those years ago and I will NOT accept you holding me responsibe for it! I fully accept the failings of my country in the past and now and if I could go back and change those events I would, but I can't. Therefore, history has no bearing on my right to speak out against racism, nor even do events happening now that I have no control over (ie Iraq). When can we have a serious conversation without someone using the events of history as an excuse for making unjustified and unfair remarks now?!? Why can't you judge individual people on what they say and do, not where they come from or what their country's history is?

yea and the data used the average of Chinese and Thai IQ to equate Vietnamese IQ. how scientific indeed :banana: BTW half of the kids that were tested as East Asians IQ in America were Vietnamese descendants.

BTW, Vietnam always rank consistently only behind China in International Math Olympiad beating both South Korea and Japan.
http://imo.math.ca/results/TCBY.html

Vietnamese beat Japan and South Korea in topcode computer programming contest too.
http://www.topcoder.com/stat?c=country_avg_rating

If you had ever read the Euclid's "Element" or Aristol's works , you would not have wondered why modern science and math were developed in Europe but not China. Ancient Chinese were good in ethics and strategy studies, empirical data collection, and large engineering project, but lacked rationalism in the view of nature. Chinese understanding of logics was vague and unsystematic until late 19th century.

is being systematic the same as being doctrinism. it's true that the modern science is considered to be developed in europe. it's common perception that the rocket was being invented by the german scientist to send a object into space, but it's not true, the chinese has made rocket many centuries ago, but instead, it was being used for different purpose 'bomb'.

Greek philosphy is not "Western" per se as at Euclid's time "Europe" or the "West" was not even an idea. The foundation of Greek philosophy is "oriental" Babylon, Sumer, Persia, Phoenicia and semitic Egypt. Western Europeans have the great ability claim credit for a lot of things that are not theirs. What did the barbaric Viking or Germanic tribes have to do with the sophisticated hellenic culture at that time?

Learning Greek and Latin has always been part of the theological education even in medieval Europe. Latin was the language of the aristocracy and clerics, never understood by the commons. Europeans started to claim hellenic culture to be their cultural root very late, actually long after the Renaissance.



Hey, you sound so offensive toward those still belief in the superiority of the Aryan race! :lol:

is being systematic the same as being doctrinism. it's true that the modern science is considered to be developed in europe. it's common perception that the rocket was being invented by the german scientist to send a object into space, but it's not true, the chinese has made rocket many centuries ago, but instead, it was being used for different purpose 'bomb'.

You lack profound understanding of science and engineering. Being systematic has nothing to do with being doctrinaire.

Chinese did use rockets as weapons. A Chinese called Wan Hu in Ming Dynasty even tried to lift himself with rockets. When Chinese invented rocket, Chinese did not understand Newton's Third Law. That was why I said that Chinese were good in empirical data collection. Ancient Chinese understanding of rocket remained at phenomenological level and never tried to build a solid scientific theory from those empirical data. No body said German invented Rocket.
See Wikipedia for better understanding of this subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wan_Hu

It's rather ignorant to say "Vietnamese have genes closer to Chinese". Vietnamese, namely the Kinh ethnic group, is a very mixed people, just like Chinese, namely the Han ethnic group.

Yes it is SOMETIMES difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish SOME Vietnamese individuals from Chinese, but those cases are in the minority and is not uniform.

What is so ignorant about what I said? It is very true that Vietnamense have geners closer to Chinese than other South Easten Asians, particularly closer to Southern Chinese such as people from Guangxi province. Of course, I know that as a group, Vietnamese look slightly different from Chinese. Vietnam and South China was once in the same kingdom. There are significant amount of Vietnamese having Chinese blood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinh

Hey, you sound so offensive toward those still belief in the superiority of the Aryan race! :lol:

Truth hurts! Aryan? What Aryan? The Persians are Aryans ... not blond, not pinkish skinned! Think where the name Iran comes from!

You lack profound understanding of science and engineering. Being systematic has nothing to do with being doctrinaire.

Chinese did use rockets as weapons. A Chinese called Wan Hu in Ming Dynasty even tried to lift himself with rockets. When Chinese invented rocket, Chinese did not understand Newton's Third Law. That was why I said that Chinese were good in empirical data correction. Ancient Chinese understanding of rocket remained at phenomenological level and never tried to build a solid scientific theory from those empirical data. No body said German invented Rocket.
See Wikipedia for better understanding of this subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wan_Hu

I think i wont be able to get into all these technical detail of rocket sciences. the year the chinese invent the rocket was somewhere around 2000 during the han dynasty. their might be lack the understanding of the propellation system at that time, but the today's newton 3rd law still wasn't be able to explain in detail as to why did the motion take paly, all that he did is to find a way to justify the motion, off course, the chinese way of understanding the propellation system 2000years ago is some what different from the today's newton' law. but it still exist, or there won't be any of these invention. the sophistacation of science has reach a new height at song dynasty. it's when the chinese rocket expert was being used in the mongle's world conquest, and the failure of the mongle empire to invade chinese nan song dynasty has led them to simulated into chinese mainstream in order to gain chinese trust. and start to rule the whole empire in chinese way.

for being systematic is very closed related to doctrinaire, the rule or the law created many thousand years ago might not sufficiently justify everything happen around us today, off course they have to be on a piece of paper, that's what mean by doctrism, you cant explain everything in reality by use of book or laws.

for being systematic is very closed related to doctrinaire, the rule or the law created many thousand years ago might not sufficiently justify everything happen around us today, off course they have to be on a piece of paper, that's what mean by doctrism, you cant explain everything in reality by use of book or laws.

"Systematic" and "doctrinaire" are completely different concepts. They are not even remotely related.

"Systematic" and "doctrinaire" are completely different concepts. They are not even remotely related.

Systems are based on a certain set of rules or laws, hence doctrinair.

^^
Then every human behavior is doctrinair because we do everything more or less based some kinds of rules and laws.

^^
Then every human behavior is doctrinair because we do everything more or less based some kinds of rules and laws.

that's the case for most of people, but not for everybuddy. the western church make it into a law that earth was center of universe. whoever don't believe into those sht must be barbecued.

^^
Ｗｈｅｎ ｙｏｕ ｔｈｉｎｋ, ｓｐｅａｋ, ｏｒ ｗｒｉｔｅ, ｙｏｕ ｃｏｎsｃｉｏｕｓｌｙ or ｕｎｃｏｎsｃｉｏｕｓｌｙ ｕｓｅ ｌｏｇｉｃ. Logic is a rule.

it's evident to us, that the sun rotate around the earth every day. that's the kind logic people used to have in western world. it's sad that the church declare this observation as the law of nature(in another world logic), thus everyone became to so used to this logic, they don't even bother to think of any other possibility, thus, confined themself from being more innovative,

then newton trying to push some guy and get pushed back. he declare this observation as another law (newton 3rd law, action and reaction theory) which might confine us from thinking any other possiblities that exist. and he didn't go any furthur to explain "why" the reaction could take place. it was just as evident as the earth centralism. I am very interested into the chinese way of understanding the propellation system 2 000 years from now, not through the action and reaction theory.

^^
It is true that religious doctrines once hindered the science development in Europe. The Chinese culture has its own problems too. Ancient Greek had similar theory as ancient Chinese five-element theory (五行学说). Europeans eventually have developed modern chemistry and physics from the rudimentary Greek theory about the universe, while many Chinese are still believing five-element theory in Chinese medicine and superstitious pseudo-science Fengshui even today.

You need to learn more about the philosophy of science theory. Ancient Chinese could have some understanding of how rockets worked. I am certain that the ancient Chinese understanding was at the level of phenomenological description. The theory of Isaac Newton fundamentally improved human understanding of the nature even though he could not explain why there were Newton’s laws. The development of scientific theory is aimed to infinitely quest the causes of phenomena that we observe and hope to find rules that can explain and predict more phenomena. However, this infinite quest of human stays at finite level at any time moment. A progress of the science theory means that a new rule is found to explain (or predict) more phenomena or known rules can be used to explain (or predict) a new phenomenon. We can not get answers for many obvious questions, such as why our space is three dimensional or why there exist laws in the universe. But, realizing that our space is three-dimensional or realizing that there are laws in our universe is a progress for human to understand the nature.

Don't tell me you know absolutely nothing about chinese medicine.
the five element theory dosn't tell you which part of your body are really fire, or wood. it was being used to traced out the root of illness. let's say, if we catch a cold, our nose will cause some itching to make us sneeze , so we can get the cold air (冷气）out of our body. in the westen medical science, they think that's nose problem, they cure the nose itching thing. the root of illness will remain inside of our body.

and you should be well aware the fact, that the chinese civiliation become stagnant at the end of ming dynasty, the begining of qin dynasty. I don't like to elaborate. just few word, "horseback, nomadic, cixi ect" and, before that chinese civiliation did really outpace the rest of world in every field.

what we really need to do is time to develop.

Don't tell me you know absolutely nothing about chinese medicine.
I know over a hundred of Chinese herbal medicine. I read many Chinese medicine books when I was young. Chinese medicine does have function of medical treatment, but it need to be studied from a more scientific theory.


the five element theory dosn't tell you which part of your body are really fire, or wood. it was being used to traced out the root of illness. let's say, if we catch a cold, our nose will cause some itching to make us sneeze , so we can get the cold air (冷气）out of our body. in the westen medical science, they think that's nose problem, they cure the nose itching thing. the root of illness will remain inside of our body.
It is just a myth or hype that Chinese herbal medicine cures the root of illness better than western medicine. It lacks scientific evidences.

Chinese also lacked science knowledge in the painting art. Europeans understanding of lighting, color, projection, and human muscle was superior to Chinese. Acknowledging and keenly learning the strength of other civilizations is a good way to make progress, but over-estimating the strength of one's own civilization is not.

well, think this way,

the chinese treatment was directed at cold air.(they leave your nose intact.) it does heal right. so it was a good shot. when the cold air was gone, the nose itching was gone as well.
can you tell me "which cause which", "which is symptom" , "which is root of illness".

and most of scientific theory are all based on observation instead of reason ( action and reaction theory, five element theory,) you can't tell which is more right. like you can all reach the same destination using different way(highway, railway, or airway).

^^
That is why I said that too many things in Chinese culture are mystical, superstitious, and metaphysical. Those things are detrimental to the development of China and must be removed.

That is why I said that too many things in Chinese culture are mystical, superstitious, and metaphysical.

which one are mystical, certain something is superstitious like fenshui, but nobody is paying attention to it.

by the way, did you got the answer for my question

deleted, wrong section

which one are mystical, certain something is superstitious like fenshui, but nobody is paying attention to it.

by the way, did you got the answer for my question

What you said is a perfect example of being mystical and metaphysical.

well, think this way,

the chinese treatment was directed at cold air.(they leave your nose intact.) it does heal right. so it was a good shot. when the cold air was gone, the nose itching was gone as well.
can you tell me "which cause which", "which is symptom" , "which is root of illness".
and most of scientific theory are all based on observation instead of reason ( action and reaction theory, five element theory,) you can't tell which is more right. like you can all reach the same destination using different way(highway, railway, or airway).


ok, this is the question i am referring to.

Don't be obsessed with the stupid question. Traditional Chinese medicine does have therapeutic effect, but the whole theory is based on a shaky ground.

There are parallelisms or isomorphisms in the development of scientific theory, but five-element theory is by no means a isomorphism of modern science.

what constituted to be scientific. the way of understanding the natural phenomenon through the observation.

earth centralism, based on observation, (proved to be wrong)
sun centralism, based on observation, (proved to be wrong)
newton's 3rd law, based on observation. when push something and get pushed back at same time. (not yet proved to be wrong)
5 element theory, based on observation, use to pinpoint the part of body that cause illness. (not yet proved to be wrong, herbal does heal)

they are all purely based on observation, instead of reasoning.
can you tell the difference between them, if not, why some are being called scientific, some are not.

anyway, iam not stong defendent of 5 element theory, because not my major, but you can list all the rest, compare

^^
Your understanding of science is too shallow!



earth centralism, based on observation, (proved to be wrong)
sun centralism, based on observation, (proved to be wrong)


Earth centralism is right or wrong depending what reference system you use.
Even Aritotle understood that motion is relative as shown in his book "physics" . Galileo Galilei introduced the concept of inertial reference system, which made one step further than Aritotle in understanding of motion.

they are all purely based on observation, instead of reasoning.
can you tell the difference between them, if not, why some are being called scientific, some are not.
Nature laws can not be found by only reasoning. This is class 101 of science theory.

Your understanding of science is too shallow!
so do you, why even bother to ask how many debris ....
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=432664

well, that 2 theory has nothing to do with the motion. I don't like to go over the definition with you. it start with people false believe ** was center of "universe" (with reference to universe). blah

well, this thread is way off topic with reference to some standard, if not any standard :lol:

Geographically Taiwan is part of SEA, and I don't see anything wrong or am ashamed of that.

Taiwan's application for ASEAN membership has been junked because it did not met the major requirement that it should be a member of the United Nations.