The Islam thread

[Homeroids]

For better understanding and less ignorance of a faith that has got a bad ride since 9/11. I admit, I should know more about it.

First question:

What is meant by Jihad?

[hornetfig]

literally "Struggle" comes into use now from the Holy War waged by Saladin and the Seljuk Turks against the Western Crusaders who were doing a good job at destroying everything.

Fast forwarding through history, the Seljuk's were erradicated by the Ottoman Turks who then pushed as far as Constantinople and into Eastern Europe, then went into decline, became a western client state, and collapsed as an empire after WWI...

[SydneyDude]

Are there any muslims on Ozscrapers?

[dynamoultraclean]

What happened on the 9th of November?

[Homeroids]

Yeah well if you are implying the use of an American date format is bad, I think it's safe to say that the term "9/11" has become an accepted colloquialism for that fateful day. It did happen in the US after all so I don't see the point of date correctness in this case when it happened in their country. How often do we hear people referring to that day as 11/9?

[dynamoultraclean]

I hear people refer to it as September 11th more than 9/11.

[SydneyDude]

Do you think that the attack was planned eispecially for 9/11 in order to coincide with the American emergency phone number (911), or its just some freakish coincidence?

I duno what to think?

[fandango]

Isn't there an islamic calendar?

[JayT]

What are your cities islamic suburbs??

In Brisbane Muslims are concentrated around the outer South East.
Mt Gravatt and Holland Park both have Mosques that I know of.

jt

[SydneyDude]

Out west. Theres a huge mosque in Auburn

[m01lim]

I'm muslim.

Yes there is an Islamic Calander, it is a lunar calander.

[Kushantaiidan]

The muslims in Ballarat are located in my backyard, in a mass grave. HAR HAR.

[Homeroids]

^^^^^
sicko alert.

[BruceAlmighty]

For better understanding and less ignorance of a faith that has got a bad ride since 9/11. I admit, I should know more about it.

First question:

What is meant by Jihad?

Coming back to the original post.
I think Jihad means a struggle and/or quest to triumph over adversity.
Jihad can be interpreted as an individual struggle or that of a people.
We hear about Jihad only in the context of the (larger scale) struggle between the Palistinians and Isrealis for instance.
I suppose the quest of an individiual to overcome ones fear of something (spiders?) could also be a Jihad?

[Kushantaiidan]

^^^^^
sicko alert.

Sorry, that was a bit below the belt I guess...

There are actually very few arabs in ballarat, very few ethnics at all actually.. It's a very WASPy town, which makes it quite a bland place to live, and especially shop! I much prefer the colour of melbourne. =)

[Kushantaiidan]

Why do many moslems seem to misinterpret the Koran.. While all of the three related religions seem to be anti-every-other-religion, in islam it seems a lot more apparent, with the anti-sematic attitudes of many moslems, and the idea that Mohammed was the last profit, therefor all other religions are false.. Why does this make the other religions false, or is this again another misinterpretation? I haven't yet read the koran myself..

[ParraMan]

As for the meaning of Jihad, exactly what Bruce Almighty said, a struggle to overcome something.

I am not muslim, but quite a few of my best friends from Sydney are, and basically, one of the main themes of the religion is "peace" which is basically similar to most other world religions. Again similar to most other religions, believers are often taught that other religions are wrong to differing degrees (ie depending on the preacher), but most choose to accept that people are raised, or grow their own, belief structures and none are "wrong. "

I feel that Islam gets singled out a lot because of the high profile of many strong believers who preach the death of non-believers, or people who don't believe enough. On the other hand, there are still many many believers of other faiths who preach just the same thing, but don't get that same level of coverage.

Another problem is the historical beliefs of countries like Australia, with a very strong Catholic/Anglican background where other religions including Islam are growing rapidly, with a set of beliefs that don't quite fit in with the consequent orms of Australian society.

There are Muslims living throughout Sydney who have successfully become part of Australian society, my friends being one example.

As for the suburban concentrations, mainly in a band from Auburn/Granville in the north, to Bankstown/Punchbowl in the south in Sydney.

Cheers

[M()R()N]

Actually, the "individual" jihad is the struggle against inner weaknesses like jealousy, greed and pride. And, in fact, this is the "larger" jihad.

A little bit of history: when Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) successfully defeated the invaders in his first battle he said: "We have overcome our first jihad, but now we must fight a bigger, more dangerous one. The jihad against pride, complacency and greed for more power. We must remain humble and not take advantage of our victory..."

[BulldozerGirl]

BruceAlmighty answered the question about jihad correctly.

Jihad literally means "struggle" and it can be generally divided into two kinds, the Greater and Lesser jihads. The lesser is fighting in war against aggressors for example, and the greater is struggling against temptation, which is worse than fighting a war. Some other kinds of jihad include that of speaking out against something that is wrong, or going to work every morning to earn a living or serve someone. Anything can be a jihad if it is dedicated for the love of God, so it mainly depends on your niyya or intention. Studying at school or college and even walking to school is also a jihad (i.e., it's a struggle of some sort in order to achieve something good or serve someone, and you receive rewards for it).

I noticed that hornetfig said that the term has been used since Saladin's war and the Crusades, but it is really an Islamic concept and law that was mentioned in the Quran and books of hadith, centuries before the days of Saladin.

There are many Islamic sects, but the main ones are the Sunna and Shi'ia (the Sunna being the largest group by far). This mainstream sect, as well as the Shi'ia, have some major set laws that are mentioned in the Quran and books of hadith, which can not and will not be changed, and they also have some flexible laws which have exceptions..etc. A normal person is able to study Islamic law at university, and become an Islamic lawyer and scholar. Scholars can be members of official committees that come up with fatwas or laws for new problems and issues that face Muslims. Such committees base their fatwas on the Quran, Hadith, comparison with existing laws, and discussion and voting which involves qualified scholars from around the world. Some of the most well-known Islamic law institutions are the al-Azhar University and Mosque in Cairo, Egypt, and the Islamic University of Medina, in Saudi Arabia.

There is some flexibility in laws and some differences from one committee to another, but they generally agree on most things and the major things. The general public and even imams in small mosques who have not studied law, and have just received basic training in recitation of the Quran, should not come up with their own interpretations and fatwas, neither can members of the general public. The only thing they can do is choose which [Ifatwas[/I] they agree with more from different committees and go along with it. However, we see that there are some people who make up their own interpretations and laws without being qualified and they act upon their own laws. Terrorism has been condemned by both the al-Azhar and Medina. Therefore, I personally find it inappropriate to call such people Islamic extremists or fundamentalists, because they are neither applying Islamic laws in the extreme, nor are they following the fundamentals of the religion; they are in fact, violating its laws, so they should be known as terrorists or violators.

Anyway, here's a link to an old thread in an Irish forums page which answers several "Western" questions about Islam. I dunno if you're of the reading type, but you might find it useful, and I might save some time typing.. http://www.p45rant.net/boards/showthread.php?threadid=57221

[Muse]

^ Good stuff BG! Thanks for the link too :)

[Kushantaiidan]

Actually, the "individual" jihad is the struggle against inner weaknesses like jealousy, greed and pride. And, in fact, this is the "larger" jihad.

A little bit of history: when Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) successfully defeated the invaders in his first battle he said: "We have overcome our first jihad, but now we must fight a bigger, more dangerous one. The jihad against pride, complacency and greed for more power. We must remain humble and not take advantage of our victory..."


Who did mohammed battle agains, and why? What gave him the right to kill, as one does in a battle? Why is religion filled with so many contradictions to the thou shallt not kill rule? Why do ppl continue to misinerpret teachings, and beleive that they can kill? Arabs kill jews, jews kill arabs, christians kill everybody, what is the factor in religion that allows this?

In an irreligious world, would humans automatically find another reason to commit murder and genocide..

[Kushantaiidan]

May I also bring up the issue of human rights, namely sexism within religion. Is the oppression of females among many islamic ppl again due to misinterpretation of their religious texts, or do the religious texts say this is a-ok to do? On such a simple concept religious texts shouldn't be so open to interpretation, but as simple as religious rules get, ppl still misinterpret them. In conclusion, regardless of how perfect, or morally right a religion in theory is, the human condition will ensure that it's teachings will be misinterpreted, and ppl will continue to suffer. Would the abolishment of religion solve this problem?

[M()R()N]

Who did mohammed battle agains, and why? What gave him the right to kill, as one does in a battle? Why is religion filled with so many contradictions to the thou shallt not kill rule? Why do ppl continue to misinerpret teachings, and beleive that they can kill? Arabs kill jews, jews kill arabs, christians kill everybody, what is the factor in religion that allows this?

In an irreligious world, would humans automatically find another reason to commit murder and genocide..

Well his first stronghold (and first followers) were situated in a small town nearby Mecca, which at that time was a "holy" city to various (polytheist) religons. The aristocrats of this city made loads of money by selling idols to the pilgrims that would come to the city. These aristocrats didnt take kindly to the Prophet preaching that there was only one god (this sort of ruined their business). And when they saw the Prophet gaining followers they decided to put a stop to it. First they sent assassins to kill him as he slept. When this failed (The Prophet had been tipped off), They started mobilizing their army and attacked, so the Prophet defended his people. and after victory, he welcomed the surviving attackers into the society.

There is no "thou shall not kill rule", it is said however in the Quran that one should not kill in any situation unless you are being deprived of your right to live peacefully, or if ur being deprived of ur right to your own religion. But make no mistake, Islam truly is a peaceful religion.

"Why do ppl continue to misinerpret teachings, and beleive that they can kill"?
Well, in a word, education, or the lack of it. What happens in a few of 3rd world islamic nations these days is that children are sent to madrassas from a very early age. A madrassa is a place of learning (commonly in a mosque). Here the children are taught islam. This is not necessarily a bad thing but when these children are not sent to a school at the same time , where they are kept up to date with how the world runs in the current age, it leaves a huge gap. Although, it is repeatedly insisted in the Quran that "keeping up with the current pace of the world" is as important as practising ur religion.

Education is a very powerful tool, and one really realizes its power when u see a lack of it. And i advise all, that if ur not sure about something, check it out, find out. Read a translated version of the Quran. I was curious so ive started reading the bible.

[M()R()N]

May I also bring up the issue of human rights, namely sexism within religion. Is the oppression of females among many islamic ppl again due to misinterpretation of their religious texts, or do the religious texts say this is a-ok to do? On such a simple concept religious texts shouldn't be so open to interpretation, but as simple as religious rules get, ppl still misinterpret them. In conclusion, regardless of how perfect, or morally right a religion in theory is, the human condition will ensure that it's teachings will be misinterpreted, and ppl will continue to suffer. Would the abolishment of religion solve this problem?

There is no sexism against women in islam. if anything, according to the Quran, women are supposed to be repected and given priority. There is no misinterpretating either, even in countries like Saudi Arabia, where women are not allowed to drive. Restrictions on women in certain countries are placed only because the rulers of these countries are afraid of losing power and they are afraid of the society being ruined like the "divorce-ridden" societies, especially in the west (no offence). This however is totally unjustified and will only be found in some non-democratic islamic countries. If you look at malaysia or indonesia, you will see a very good equilibrium of islam and "modern" society. For example you will see women in headscarves on their way to work at the Petronas Towers(Ex- WTB)

Yes, i agree the human race is doomed lol. Religion will only be abolished when the answer to all the questions of the universe can be found. Religion is after all, an attempt at justifying our existence.

By the way, where are u from and do u have a religion?

[BulldozerGirl]

"Why do ppl continue to misinerpret teachings, and beleive that they can kill"?
Well, in a word, education, or the lack of it. What happens in a few of 3rd world islamic nations these days is that children are sent to madrassas from a very early age. A madrassa is a place of learning (commonly in a mosque). Here the children are taught islam. This is not necessarily a bad thing but when these children are not sent to a school at the same time , where they are kept up to date with how the world runs in the current age, it leaves a huge gap. Although, it is repeatedly insisted in the Quran that "keeping up with the current pace of the world" is as important as practising ur religion.

Education is a very powerful tool, and one really realizes its power when u see a lack of it. And i advise all, that if ur not sure about something, check it out, find out. Read a translated version of the Quran. I was curious so ive started reading the bible.

Most madrasas in 3rd world countries do not have qualified staff to teach. The teachers themselves have only been to a madrasa for their education, and they were also taught by teachers who were only taught at madrasas. And what they were taught at these schools was not entirely correct, and they might have also been taught wrong things that were part of the country's culture or a mistaken belief, but have nothing to do with Islam. Many of the teachers in Pakistan for example, do not even know Arabic. They can only read the text but they teach in Urdu and they don't understand the text to give any interpretation and base their teachings on what they heard from someone who himself didn't know much. Such things are common in poor places, and it isn't just because these people were only taught Islam and nothing else. They were not even taught Islam, they were taught wrong things, and that's all.

[Kushantaiidan]

There is no sexism against women in islam. if anything, according to the Quran, women are supposed to be repected and given priority. There is no misinterpretating either, even in countries like Saudi Arabia, where women are not allowed to drive. Restrictions on women in certain countries are placed only because the rulers of these countries are afraid of losing power and they are afraid of the society being ruined like the "divorce-ridden" societies, especially in the west (no offence). This however is totally unjustified and will only be found in some non-democratic islamic countries. If you look at malaysia or indonesia, you will see a very good equilibrium of islam and "modern" society. For example you will see women in headscarves on their way to work at the Petronas Towers(Ex- WTB)

Yes, i agree the human race is doomed lol. Religion will only be abolished when the answer to all the questions of the universe can be found. Religion is after all, an attempt at justifying our existence.

By the way, where are u from and do u have a religion?

I am an athiest, and i feel very strongly about religion, and i simply do not beleive that a god can exsist. I was baptised as a catholic, but was not taught much about religion as a child, and instead learned as much as I could about science, and from everything I learned, i came to my conclusion about the question of whether a god could exsist. But in this thread, i'm curious about learning about religions, how they work etc, so I don't really want to debate the exsistance of a god in this thread, I'd just like to know more!

I'm from Ballarat in victoria. And again I apologise for being a bit silly earlier in the thread.

Can i ask you to perhaops elaborate a little more on the female opression side of things? Why does religion have so much emphasis on virginity, and marraige. Quite a broad question, I know.. but i have been reading a little bit about arab tribes around the time of the war with israel, how women had no say in marraige, and if they were not virgins, severe punishment was dealt. Why was this? Was it derived from a misinterpretation of the Quran? Or is it as you have said before just because of male greed, and the need to force their superiority on women?

[M()R()N]

I am an athiest, and i feel very strongly about religion, and i simply do not beleive that a god can exsist. I was baptised as a catholic, but was not taught much about religion as a child, and instead learned as much as I could about science, and from everything I learned, i came to my conclusion about the question of whether a god could exsist. But in this thread, i'm curious about learning about religions, how they work etc, so I don't really want to debate the exsistance of a god in this thread, I'd just like to know more!

I'm from Ballarat in victoria. And again I apologise for being a bit silly earlier in the thread.

Can i ask you to perhaops elaborate a little more on the female opression side of things? Why does religion have so much emphasis on virginity, and marraige. Quite a broad question, I know.. but i have been reading a little bit about arab tribes around the time of the war with israel, how women had no say in marraige, and if they were not virgins, severe punishment was dealt. Why was this? Was it derived from a misinterpretation of the Quran? Or is it as you have said before just because of male greed, and the need to force their superiority on women?

Y the emphasis on virginity and marriage? wow i dont know where to start, i guess all u have to do is look at the american society. Sure, women are more empowered but look at the kids growing up there, they are completely neglected, learning values and ethics from Britney Spears on TV. I am not at all saying women shouldnt work but a lifestyle of "freedom and empowerment" from a small age (be it sexual freedom or not) tends to "spoil" them. When they have an encounter with a defective condom and end up with a child 9 months later, they dont want to slow down their hectic pace of life.

No say in marriage, is a result of intially the fathers sincerely not wanting their girls to go down the right path ending up with a stubborness that is passed down as "culture". However, even in the Quran it is emphasized that the girl definitely has a right to refuse proposals, even those arranged by her parents.

Punishment for not being a virgin is basically the husband finding out about her virginity and not being able to control his fury, u must realize the less educated the lower control one has over his emotions. Sadly these punishments still happen in some places.

[M()R()N]

Why do many moslems seem to misinterpret the Koran.. While all of the three related religions seem to be anti-every-other-religion, in islam it seems a lot more apparent, with the anti-sematic attitudes of many moslems, and the idea that Mohammed was the last profit, therefor all other religions are false.. Why does this make the other religions false, or is this again another misinterpretation? I haven't yet read the koran myself..

Muslims, generally dont misinterpret the quran. It is just a small few who want to mislead other uneducated ones for some reason or the other. Plus no one need to mention the biased approach of the media these days.
Koran is not anti-other-religion at all. Koran keeps refering to christians and jews as "people of the book" and that both the books (Torah and Bible) and the people of these books should be respected and treated as brothers. For example muslims (generally supposed to eat Halal meat) are allowed to eat Kosher meat. Muslims also believe in the same prophets as the Christians and Jews + 1 (Prophet Mohammed). The only thing the koran disagrees with Christians is that Jesus is not the son of god, and that Jesus was not crucified. Basically to muslims, christians are supposed to be brothers who have taken a wrong turn (idolizing Jesus more than God, celebrating Birhtdays of Jesus and so on). Quran however strongly opposes polytheism, repeating countless times that there is only one God.

[BulldozerGirl]

Kushantaiidan - I have answered some questions regarding this subject on two threads on some Irish forums, one is "US virgin teens preach abstinence in Ireland" http://www.p45rant.net/boards/showthread.php?threadid=57543 and the other is "strains of islam" which I have a link to earlier here http://www.p45rant.net/boards/showthread.php?threadid=57221 .

Concerning virginity, I have noticed that in the Western media, stories of Muslim girls being killed because they found out they weren't virgins..etc are greatly exaggerated and covered as though its the norm in Islamic countries.

Islam, like many other monotheistic religions, forbids pre-marital and extra-marital sex. This is because sex is a very intimate and personal act, and there should be serious commitment to prevent any harm from a misuse of sex. It is also important for legal purposes, such as inheritance..etc, and to protect the children resulting from this union.

Extra-marital sexual activity is forbidden for both men and women in Islam, so there is no reason for the Western media to say that only women are expected to be virgins on their wedding night (first wedding night, I might add - since some people are divorced/widowed). Some people say that if the girl does not have a hymen, then she is not a virgin, and she is punished for this by "Islamic law". This is incorrect, since Islam does not say an intact hymen indicates virginity in a female, and Islamic scholars agree that the absence of a hymen should not be taken seriously, since scientifically it's meaningless as well. However, in some Middle Eastern or Asian cultures (I repeat culture and not religion), some people take it very seriously, and they sometimes overreact to such things. What they do is not related to Islam, but to their own culture (the same as female circumcision for example, which is part of the culture with certain African tribes, but has been falsely associated with Islam, since some people from these tribes are supposedly Muslim).

Since many Islamic laws are similar to Biblical laws, many people in the West confuse the two. For example, in the OT, there is a law that says if a married woman commits adultery, whether with a married man or a single man, she should be stoned to death. However, a married man is not stoned to death if he cheats with a single woman; he is only stoned if he cheats with a married woman. Also, the punishment for rape which is decreed in the OT says that the rapist must marry his victim, pay a certain amouny of shekels to the victim's father, and he can not divorce her or take on another wife for the rest of his life. Such laws, however, are not the same in the Quran. Islam says that both a married man and a married woman should be stoned if they commit adultery, whether with single or married people, and single people are flogged. So the punishment for both sexes is exactly the same, but we see that people in the West think Islamically the laws are sexist because they are confusing it with Biblical laws which are not applied today even by Jews and Christians.

As for the severity of the punishment for adulterers, it is certainly harsh, but is actually very rarely applied, since it requires four witnesses who saw the accused in the act (no one will have sex in front of 4 people), and it is permitted (and also advised) for people not to confess, but to hide their "crime" and repent in private. The outcome of their repentance depends on how honest it was and that is only known to God.

[LanceDriver]

HA HA HA! very timely re-introduction from the last page.

what type of sword did mohammed use?

[LanceDriver]

on a serious note, there's been a lot of crap about this topic whipped up lately in threads so this particular thread and the links posted by bulldozergirl do make a good read if you have time. it's simply idiots who cause shit all round.

[Qantas743]

Referring back to the previous page, Melbourne's muslim area is pretty much every northern suburb especially around the airport/Tullamarine area, some more concentrated and religious than others.

Major suburbs include:
Brunswick, Coburg, Broadmeadows (very concentrated), Meadow Heights, Dallas, Keilor/Essendon/Tullamarine, Lalor, Epping, Cambellfield, Fawkner, Preston (large mosque), Thomastown.

Was recently in a small shopping village in Dallas and every shop was either a Halal kebab shop or an islamic book shop.

The main muslim suburbs though are really Broadmeadows, Brunswick and Coburg.

There is also a large muslim community in Noble Park and Dandenong in Melbourne's outer east.