Okay,this here is general thread for anything regarding urban infrastructure (i.e. bridges,roads,railways,tramways etc in urban enviroment - in cities & towns) and public transportation (trams,buses,trolleybuses etc. in another words -everything regarding PT)

For motorways,roads and bridges outside towns & cities,you can use Estonian Highways & Motorways thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=773706

For railway infrastructure outside towns & cities,you can use Rail Baltica thread (also includes railway & Rail Baltica development in Baltic states) : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=320660

______________________

Few months ago Tartu had competition for finding new design for urban buses. It should be put in use by spring 2011. Lauri Sarak won with this design:
https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand1_punane.jpg

Anyway,I like the idea of having common colour scheme for all buses (it's easier for tourists to locate buses ;)) You can see other competition entries here (.pdf file) : https://www.tartu.ee/data/Tartubuss150.pdf

..or you can use these links for separate views:
Design 2 (https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand2_punavalge.jpg) by Lauri Sarak.
Design 3 (https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand3_mustvalge.jpg) by Lauri Sarak.
Design 4 (https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand4_kaarsillaga.jpg) by Keidi Rehe.
Design 5 (https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand5_valge.jpg) by Liina Laan.
Design 6 (https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand6_must.jpg) by Liina Laan.
Design 7 (https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand7_rahvuslik.jpg) by Ander Avila.
Design 8 (https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand8_roheline.jpg) by Timo Kahara.
Design 9 (https://www.tartu.ee/data/kavand9_kollane.jpg) by Maarja Andla.

In June Tallinn received last out of 7 new Solaris Trollino 12 trolleybuses ordered in this year. Sadly,it looks like this is all TTTK what orders this year :(

New trolleybuses are same as this one:
(photo by Peter Van den Bossche)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Solaris_trolleybuses_in_Tallinn.jpg/800px-Solaris_trolleybuses_in_Tallinn.jpg

And two road reconstruction projects in Tallinn. First small stretch on Tulika street,between Nõmme road interchange and Koskla street interchange. Project will be finished in autumn. Part of road will be converted into 2+2 lanes and afaik,two roundabouts will be built - one on Tulika/Koskla interchange and one on Tulika/Kristiine shopping center parking house entrance road. Project cost - 14 million EEK,financed by Kristiine shopping center ( ! )

Strarting from Endla street and moving towards Nõmme road.
http://i29.tinypic.com/33ab1qo.jpg

Here's planned location of first roundabout.
http://i27.tinypic.com/2h7m9m1.jpg

And here's second one,on Tulika/Koskla interchange.
http://i32.tinypic.com/69hs2g.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/357kcvr.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/2h7gxl0.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/iznqlt.jpg

And second one is Rohuneeme road reconstruction (tbh,in Tallinn metro area),between Randvere & Kuuse roads (~1km long road stretch) Contractor - Lemminkäinen Eesti AS,deadline - 31st August.

Temporary road traffic redirection scheme (.pdf): http://www.viimsivald.ee/public/Liiklusskeem_1.pdf

Photos of reconstruction,moving from Kuuse/Rohuneeme interchange towards Randvere road.
http://i28.tinypic.com/wpqtv.jpg

Looking back...
http://i25.tinypic.com/sbsy0n.jpg

Bycycle road U/C next to main road.
http://i27.tinypic.com/x6nekj.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/25arsb4.jpg

Again,looking back...
http://i27.tinypic.com/k4jux1.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/245ixvm.jpg

And view from Randvere road.
http://i27.tinypic.com/1676pgh.jpg

In June Tallinn received last out of 7 new Solaris Trollino 12 trolleybuses ordered in this year. Sadly,it looks like this is all TTTK what orders this year :(

New trolleybuses are same as this one:
(photo by Peter Van den Bossche)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Solaris_trolleybuses_in_Tallinn.jpg/800px-Solaris_trolleybuses_in_Tallinn.jpg
I know I'm being a smartass here but that's actually a Solaris T12, while the new ones are T12AC which have slightly different headlights, a front roof cover for the electrical equipment, different rear lights and different placement of the electrical devices inside the interior. Also, the electronic displays are replaced by larger and more clear LED ones.

This is T12AC: http://oxygen.pri.ee/displayimage.php?album=65&pos=23

^^
It was close enough :P I posted it because everybody would understand about what size trolleybus we are talking here. Otherwise people who haven't seen them,might mix up Solaris Trollino T12's,T15's (which obviously isn't used in Estonia) and T18's.

Part of road will be converted into 2+2 lanes and afaik, two roundabouts will be built - one on Tulika/Koskla interchange and one on Tulika/Kristiine shopping center parking house entrance road.
No, no, no, no - they still haven't learned that roundabouts are no good and just frustrate people??? The curbstones on the roundabout on Pae-Võidujooksu intersection are constantly out of place, because someone has hit them. Buses fit there, but honestly I don't know how they manage the turn.

And more from Lasnamäe, Punane street is also being renovated, unfortunately I haven't got any pictures. Hope they don't build any roundabouts there...

^^
Looks like some engineers forgot that most buses of lines 23 & 17 are long,articulated buses. Soon we'll have similar situation on Tulika street as on Tondi street,few kilometres from it - buses & trucks are 'cutting' over roundabouts,because those have been made too small for them.

looking that Tartu red bus,
that spiral thing has a nickname of "xxxx" design and its pointless. How on earth stoops can get to jury to select something like that.:ohno:

http://www.hiiumaa.ee/dwm/galerii/test.php?pict=http://www.hiiumaa.ee/tmp/info/_6341.jpg&size=800
Yesterday in Kassari (former island :)) was rändpood or lavkabuss (soviet era) Hiiumaa Selvers rolling shop. It has small quite unique trailer for package-circulation (no photo).

meh, I hope its for public support transport eh?

And bonus:
Rahva Raamat rolling bookshop in Kärdla Hiiumaa island:
http://static1.fotoalbum.ee/fotoalbum/29/539/029539017e6bdd.jpg

extra:
rolling library "Katariina Jee":
http://www.ambla.ee/pictures/792/res800/1.jpg

^^ IMO, the spiral design of Tartu buses is the best choice when you compare it with others.

It's old news,but Nordecon Infra and Oy VR–Rata AB won bid for construction temporary railway for Ülemiste road junction (reconstruction of the junction should start in next month)

Temporary railway allows construction of car & pedestrian tunnels of the junction,without stopping railway traffic on eastern Tallinn Tapa direction.

Construction of the railways will cost 45,15 million EEK. It will be built in autumn 2010 and removed in spring 2011. Deadline for removing temporary railways - 22nd June 2011.

:cheers:

When it comes to ordering new trams for Tallinn, how much does the rail gauge have to be taken into account?

Technically, there are already off-the-shelf products that can be used on Tallinn's 1067mm gauge tracks.

One such example is the Centram and Portram, both of which are used in Toyama (which also has a 1067mm gauge tramway). They are manufactured by Bombardier and Niigata Transys.

Centram
http://images.travelpod.com/users/toyamakk/1.1264093032.white-colored-centram.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/users/toyamakk/1.1264093032.white-colored-centram.jpg

Portram
http://www.usrail.jp/er-japan-photo/er-japan-toyama2-photo1
http://www.usrail.jp/er-japan-photo/er-japan-toyama2-photo1

When it comes to ordering new trams for Tallinn, how much does the rail gauge have to be taken into account?

Technically, there are already off-the-shelf products that can be used on Tallinn's 1067mm gauge tracks.

One such example is the Centram and Portram, both of which are used in Toyama (which also has a 1067mm gauge tramway). They are manufactured by Bombardier and Niigata Transys.

Centram
http://images.travelpod.com/users/toyamakk/1.1264093032.white-colored-centram.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/users/toyamakk/1.1264093032.white-colored-centram.jpg

Portram
http://www.usrail.jp/er-japan-photo/er-japan-toyama2-photo1
http://www.usrail.jp/er-japan-photo/er-japan-toyama2-photo1


New tram plans are frozen because the new tram line project keeps eating their budget line, even though it never seems to get beyond the talking phase. But its quite awesome that only japan has same tram gauge as us.

I don't think that Tallinn's tramway gauge is a major issue here (after all,Helsinki is using even narrower gauge - 1000mm) because tram bogies can be adjusted,but tram width can become a issue in some places as two tracks run quite close to each other.

However lack of political will (usually Tallinn tramway expansion project is dug out before elections :no:) and inability to obtain funds from EU is a major problem here. As project with new trams & extension to eastern Tallinn would cost somewhere around 1,5-3 billion EEK,with EU paying for most of it,then it surprising that neither city or government isn't willing to financially support the project...oh wait..city is almost bankrupt and they don't get along with government :|

Btw,few years ago Škoda was discussing with TTTK (operator of trams & trolleybuses in Tallinn) about setting up assembly line & service for Škoda trams in Tallinn (obviously,if we would buy trams from them) But....nothing happen... In short Tallinn tram project is a whole lot of 'nothingness' and it's hard to believe that even within next decade anything would change.

In April this year, our city's great leader promised that Chinese tram for us by 2015. In coincidence, that was the same time Keskerakond had their campaign against Ansip and Laar, pointing out that they haven't done anything to decrease unemployment. Now, when unemployment has started to decrease slowly and the euro in 2011 was confirmed, Savisaar doesn't seem to have any arguments against the government, therefore Keskerakond doesn't need to show that "they're better than others" and "actually do stuff" etc. kind of propaganda - and suddenly the planned tram hasn't been in news for quite a while.

Just my 2 cents about the city government and our precious leader.

Actually on topic now, in my opinion the first extension should be to the Airport in south and to the Passenger Port in north. I've noticed that tourists (incl. me) have some kind of trust in rail transport, as it can only travel via rail and usually doesn't take detours.

...in my opinion the first extension should be to the Airport in south and to the Passenger Port in north...

Apparently you're not the only one who thinks about that - Ülemiste junction has planned route for tramways in the project. I'm not sure what they will select there (tunnel through railway embankment? or long tunnel starting from Sossi hill?),but I guess we'll see it once the junction is completed.
And afaik,Ülemiste shopping center parking house (which should be built soon) has also been planned in a way that there's room for tramways.

Here,I found small news about the planned parking house & tram route:
Tallinn võttis vastu Suur-Sõjamäe kahe kinnistu detailplaneeringu, mis võimaldab Ülemiste keskusel rajada kolmekorruselise laienduse ja viiekorruselise parkimismaja
...
Planeeritaval alal on ära näidatud perspektiivse trammitee asukoha kaks varianti. Variandis nr 1 on kavandatud perspektiivne trammitee paralleelselt Tartu maanteega ning variandis 2 on perspektiivne trammitee kavandatud tunnelisse ning jääb kaubanduskeskuse hoonega samasse mahtu.

It would be awesome if tram would run in a tunnel in Ülemiste area. Kinda like small metro line :happy:

I understood, that the current parking lot will be replaced by an extension of the Ülemiste shopping centre? I really-really hope that they don't clutter the lot with some random box-type building. And it would be really cool if there was a station inside the shopping centre :)...

Like Itäkeskus with it's metro station right next to shopping center in Helsinki? :cheers: It would be awesome. This would also give 'Park & Ride' option,if airport should some day get tramline connection. People could leave their cars in Ülemiste parking house and use trams for getting to Downtown.

I understood, that the current parking lot will be replaced by an extension of the Ülemiste shopping centre? I really-really hope that they don't clutter the lot with some random box-type building. And it would be really cool if there was a station inside the shopping centre :)...

The extension should cover the parking lot, And a five storey parking house will cover the parking lot Behind the building, along Sõjamäe street.

Like Itäkeskus with it's metro station right next to shopping center in Helsinki? :cheers: It would be awesome. This would also give 'Park & Ride' option,if airport should some day get tramline connection. People could leave their cars in Ülemiste parking house and use trams for getting to Downtown.
Yeah, but it would be even better, as the tram station would be on the same level with most of the shops, so even though taking the stairs/escalators isn't much of a problem, it would still be more convenient. I started wondering however, whether getting over the rails (e.g. to catch the train towards Airport) would become a problem?
The extension should cover the parking lot. And a five storey parking house will cover the parking lot Behind the building, along Sõjamäe street.
Aww, I kinda like the place there. A 5-storey building will make the street kinda dark, I think. I'm having trouble understanding, why in Estonia shopping centres still build overground parking facilities? It would be so much more cityscape-friendly, if parking houses were built underground. When visiting the Tähesaju City area, it's overwhelming how much parking spaces are there, and nobody uses them, total waste of space.

Also, while writing about stations earlier, I remembered a thought that had crossed my mind earlier - when the tram along Laagna road is once built, all modern transport facilities require access for disabled people, so are there going to be lifts in the centre of the road :D? And another thing I noticed, the bridge at Kotka kauplus bus stop doesn't have stairs coming down to the middle - are these easy to build, so that they connect to the bridge?

Yeah, but it would be even better, as the tram station would be on the same level with most of the shops, so even though taking the stairs/escalators isn't much of a problem, it would still be more convenient. I started wondering however, whether getting over the rails (e.g. to catch the train towards Airport) would become a problem?

Aww, I kinda like the place there. A 5-storey building will make the street kinda dark, I think. I'm having trouble understanding, why in Estonia shopping centres still build overground parking facilities? It would be so much more cityscape-friendly, if parking houses were built underground. When visiting the Tähesaju City area, it's overwhelming how much parking spaces are there, and nobody uses them, total waste of space.

Also, while writing about stations earlier, I remembered a thought that had crossed my mind earlier - when the tram along Laagna road is once built, all modern transport facilities require access for disabled people, so are there going to be lifts in the centre of the road :D? And another thing I noticed, the bridge at Kotka kauplus bus stop doesn't have stairs coming down to the middle - are these easy to build, so that they connect to the bridge?

huh? I consider parking buildings quite urban.

Also, while writing about stations earlier, I remembered a thought that had crossed my mind earlier - when the tram along Laagna road is once built, all modern transport facilities require access for disabled people, so are there going to be lifts in the centre of the road :D?

Most likely. And f I remember correctly then one lift with roughly same height as those bridges should cost somewhere around 500'000 EEK. Depending on if one tram platform is built in the middle of tram tracks or two platforms are built on either side of tracks,either one or two lifts are needed.

And another thing I noticed, the bridge at Kotka kauplus bus stop doesn't have stairs coming down to the middle - are these easy to build, so that they connect to the bridge?

It's really easy stuff. Although I bet that they would use slightly different design on Laagna bridges without stairs - instead of straight stairs from bridge to future tram platforms,more compact stair towers.

Anyway,changing the subject - when talking about PT,it's pure stupidity that Tallinn decided to put biofuel/gas bus project on hold and chose implementing new ticket system based on RFID-cards (which should be in use by the end of this year) I'm not saying that it's a bad thing...hell,it's even a good thing as I personally often loose paper tickets,they end up in washing machine etc (I'm sure that it happens to other people too). But in long term gas powered buses would have been lot more beneficial,lowering operating costs & being 'greener' (as if Tallinn's buses aren't green enough ;))

Btw,few years ago they were even testing biogas powered MAN bus in Tallinn.
http://fot.elu24.ee/tee_puuduv_pilt.php?r=/f/2009/09/15/236002t44hdff2.jpg

Anyway,changing the subject - when talking about PT,it's pure stupidity that Tallinn decided to put biofuel/gas bus project on hold and chose implementing new ticket system based on RFID-cards (which should be in use by the end of this year) I'm not saying that it's a bad thing...hell,it's even a good thing as I personally often loose paper tickets,they end up in washing machine etc (I'm sure that it happens to other people too). But in long term gas powered buses would have been lot more beneficial,lowering operating costs & being 'greener' (as if Tallinn's buses aren't green enough ;))

Btw,few years ago they were even testing biogas powered MAN bus in Tallinn.

MAN NL243 Lion's City CNG, to be precise :lol:. It was brought here from Poland last September.

Continuing on tickets, Elektriraudtee announced today that a new ticket system based on contactless smart cards will be put to use starting September 6, 2010.

The new system allows loading period tickets on the card as well as simple amounts of money, which can then be used to buy single tickets onboard the train. The system will also simplify buying tickets after we take on euro, as passengers don't have to deal with small coins.

In Estonian:
Postimees.ee (http://www.postimees.ee/?id=292293)
yhistransport.eu (http://www.yhistransport.eu/index.php/et/uudised/1-buss/227-elektriraudtee-laeheb-suegisel-uele-uuele-piletisuesteemile)
Elektriraudtee.ee (http://www.elektriraudtee.ee/elektriraudtee-laheb-sugisel-ule-kiipkaardi-pohisele-piletimuugisusteemile/)

In English:
eng.yhistransport.eu (http://eng.yhistransport.eu/index.php/component/content/article/1-fresh/10-elektriraudtee-starts-using-a-new-ticket-system-this-fall)

^^
Is it similar to ones put in use by Tallinn in PT? I.e. - can you use Tallinn PT card for buying tickets in trains and/or Elektriraudtee card for buying tickets for buses,trams,trolleybuses ? Otherwise it would be bit odd to use two separate,yet basically same ticket systems in Tallinn metro (metro area,that is...)

For some reason I doubt that, there have been no news or connections between the development of these systems. Tallinn's Department of Transportation doesn't have neither money nor brain power to come up with the idea of proper ticketing system for Tallinn public and commuter transport.

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/06/16/387402t55ha251.jpg
Ferrytraffic in Suur väin (Suur channel) will be sparsed from August.
Virtsu-Kuivasti line will have 1hrs 10 min interval compare with 40 min interval.

In Heltermaa-Rohuküla line will have two ferries (in this summer we had four different ferries, some windy days and in low tide bigger ferries alas didnt run)

This would also give 'Park & Ride' option,if airport should some day get tramline connection. People could leave their cars in Ülemiste parking house and use trams for getting to Downtown.

Do you have numbers of the amount of people that work in Tallinn but don't live there?

Do you have numbers of the amount of people that work in Tallinn but don't live there?

Linnavalitsus has released these numbers in Tallinn Development Plan 2009-2027: people moving from Harjumaa & Tallinn metro to work in Tallinn each day - 38500. People moving from Tallinn to work in Harjumaa & Tallinn metro in each day 20100. Btw,car traffic on city border in 24h : 250 000 vehicles per each day

I think these are old numbers and I doubt that it shows correct daily to/from work movements between Tallinn and metro area.

You can see this study here (in estonian and .pdf file): http://www.tallinn.ee/est/g737s43268

Government plans to trade emission quotas with Spain,who pays 688,5 million EEK for it. And here the public transportation part comes in - some of that sum will be used for buying new regional buses. I'm not sure who will operate those buses (aren't all regional buses operated by private companies? :dunno:)...but anyway,it's a great news :cheers:

Source: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/580916

EDIT: they are talking about buying ~100 new buses. And this news has already pissed off local private bus companies :lol:: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/580970

It seems that Elektriraudtee has chosen the final color scheme for those Stadler FLIRT trains coming in service by 2013. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/elektriraudtee/sets/72157624526624551/with/4859984338/) Trains will have air conditioning, WiFi all over the train, accessible entrances for people in wheelchairs and ticket machines. Total cost of trains will be 79,5 million euros, which will get us six 4-wagon units and twelve 3-wagon units. 85% of the money comes from the EU.

I thought there was going to be a public contest for the designs. Damn it! That means I'm not going to see trains cruising around in my colours. :(

Ewww! I hope this is not the final design. It's better than previous all white design,but it still sucks.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4136/4859339195_2bb7a6be1e_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4859954728_591255e718_b.jpg

:ohno:

Nice!

Color scheme is ugly though :(

Also are some sections 2 level? Front of the train seems to have some windows above ?

:ohno::ohno::ohno:

WTF. this is bad.
should send e-mail to idiots.

idk, the livery isnt too bad. THough instead of rails the white stripes remind me of skis.

and seems like it was done by a designer, not some random dude from SSC ;)

Oh. Atleast the windowline is banded with a continous color.

Some random dude from SSC would have made a lot better design ;) I mean orange-white...wtf..I like the stripes,but plz change the colour scheme. And look at those Elektriraudtee signs on the sides,why they have to be on white background? It makes Elektriraudtee sign designs look crappy. Anyway,I hope that this is not the final design,as Elektriraudtee hasn't announced any design competition winners on their blog. They are probably just testing,how pissed off people would be over various design & colour schemes :lol:

Also are some sections 2 level? Front of the train seems to have some windows above ?

Passenger car ends are slightly higher than middle section. You can see the higher part here:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4859334653_f7531f7642_b.jpg


OT: I hope that they don't replace that sexy female voice,who announces stop names & information on Elektriraudtee trains :D

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4859334653_f7531f7642_b.jpg




I hope that heating is on top level or else those who are sitting there will freeze their asses off during winter.

Tin_Can - no I did not meant the slightly elevated part -look at the electric train sample: it would seem as if there were 2 windows near the front of the train above the normal windows. Or are they some sort of air grills?

EDIT: also the map on the glass in the interior (just below "esimene klass") ??? Is it from here: http://infrastruct.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/central-tallinn-tunnel-s-bahn/ ??? second picture. Strange :S

Tin_Can - no I did not meant the slightly elevated part -look at the electric train sample: it would seem as if there were 2 windows near the front of the train above the normal windows. Or are they some sort of air grills?

You're right about these being air grills. Those higher parts & 'humps' on the roof are engines and all that stuff. Not much room under those trains ;) Remember,RVR electric trains have most of their stuff under trains.

EDIT: also the map on the glass in the interior (just below "esimene klass") ??? Is it from here: http://infrastruct.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/central-tallinn-tunnel-s-bahn/ ??? second picture. Strange :S

Holy crap! I almost had a heart attack,when I saw this:
Central Tallinn tunnel (S-Bahn)

:D

Quite interesting ideas,although most of them are useless. I don't have any idea though,why they used these maps on renders.

Central stop for share taxis (liinitaksod) is U/C in Downtown,near Solaris centre. Deadline is in September and by October all Tallinn metro share taxis will have they route end/beginning there. It's a bargain deal - cost is only 2 million EEK and all of it will be paid by Solaris shopping centre (Hmmm,looks like they have found a new way to promote their business - remember Tulika street reconstruction,financed by Kristiine shopping centre :sleepy:)

Photo from Postimees:
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/08/05/414060t44hdc59.jpg

...the white stripes remind me of skis.

meh...I had same thought, a quite precise one
http://www.tank.ee/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Suusaliidu_Etapilogod.jpg

WHISPERS about Best top 10 decisions, that have made better life:
(Last 10 years of expertiese in Tallinn urban transportation)

1. Scania OmniLink (with nice TAK colors)
2. Flirt trains (probably not higher than 2nd place :)
3. Tallinn trams center lowfloor car
4. Renovated Electric trains interiors (more than 10 years ago)
5. Easy ID-card system and Mobile-tickets
6. Solaris Trollino
7. Small streetsigns and zebra extra lights (but still 70% of them dont show people who wait on streetside :(

...yeah only 7 out of 10. Maybe someone can do better evaluation...
regards

I don't get the hatred (from our well-known and hell-of-a-smart specialists and professionals) against the design?
Get over, and go to tell on... ..complain.. ...as always.........

This means that I find the colour to be good, because orange is opposite to green and that's why it is easy to notice the difference between nature green, sky blue and even snow white. Yeah, a bit tacky and clamant, but, but, but, but. Orange also stands for commercial, mercantile, exchange and finance in integral psychology meme.

Tomorrow begins the reconstruction of Pirita and Rummu road intersection, which will have traffic lights after it's finished. That way the traffic will be less hectic, yet still smoothly running. The project costs 9 million EEK and the reconstruction lasts for a month.
Also, a new bus stop will be created near Pirita Selver.

tallinnapostimees.ee (http://www.tallinnapostimees.ee/?id=297471) (in Estonian)

WHISPERS about Best top 10 decisions, that have made better life:
(Last 10 years of expertiese in Tallinn urban transportation)

1. Scania OmniLink (with nice TAK colors)
2. Flirt trains (probably not higher than 2nd place :)
3. Tallinn trams center lowfloor car
4. Renovated Electric trains interiors (more than 10 years ago)
5. Easy ID-card system and Mobile-tickets
6. Solaris Trollino
7. Small streetsigns and zebra extra lights (but still 70% of them dont show people who wait on streetside :(

...yeah only 7 out of 10. Maybe someone can do better evaluation...
regards

...

8. Overall accuracy of public transportation schedule :cheers: Meaning that unless smth is totally wrong,all buses,trams,trains etc arrive at your stop or station no more than ~1 min late (although you'd need to travel around the world bit,to fully appreciate this thing ;))
9. Electronic boards displaying bus arrival/departure times. Yeah,too few and only in few places (in Downtown,around Viru centre,but hopefully one day we see more of them)

...one more is needed.

... lets say 11 (because the value is not so important as nr 10, So:
11. Only Bus and trolley streetline - they make car travellers angry, but as poor Tallinn cant afford probably never proper bikelines in downdown - its good for cyclist, that such roads will be even more in future.

what is now - Renee? Dont make to many thougths in your head.

P.S. Well, when you evaluate the Flirt color scheme and exterior graphic design in 3D model, you probably understand, that those metallic colors will not be in outcome so sexy and disco and that red spot in front will be neon-red not metallic glitter. So it will be not much of a fresh, but a bit more to juicy orange :)

Ewww! I hope this is not the final design. It's better than previous all white design,but it still sucks.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4136/4859339195_2bb7a6be1e_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4859954728_591255e718_b.jpg

:ohno:

how about Crotrain by Koncar, 75m long, 160kmph, 5 million euros per train. Croatia ordered 67 of these, Bosnia 1, but more to follow.

wZxkgAXPb5Y

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3821/1005163.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4300/1005188.jpg

in Croatian , but has loads of nice pics of the interior and exterior... worth a look.

f26TZ9pHmH8

What is that? Ripoff from stadler or licensed production?

how about Crotrain by Koncar, 75m long, 160kmph, 5 million euros per train. Croatia ordered 67 of these, Bosnia 1, but more to follow.


No we did not.

No we did not.

hm, we did not, hm

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj13/portosmedex2/Koncarevac_0002.jpg
Članak o ugovoru i planiranoj količini vlakova.
Koliko je Hrvatska uložila u Željeznicu od 2000 do danas. Svake godine pet puta više nego BiH. Mnogo bolje vagone imamo, njih stotine modernizirane u gredelju, a vagone u bih možeš na prste izbrojati. Vi s te kuplil talgo a mi smo za te pare rekonstruirali Vinkovci - Tovarnik. Bolje dizelske lokomotive imamo,vi imate samo seriju 661 koje su u hrvatsko sve kasirane osim dvije koje su za muzej. Bolje elektro lokomotive ima hž vi imate 11 moderniziranih asea HŽ preko 50, još uz to ima 15 brena koje vuku vlakove 160kmh, skora nabava novih lokomotiva koje je ministar obečao ima 3 mjeseca i da ne nabrajam ulaganje. Imate vi još kruha jesti dok dostignete sadašnju razinu Hrvatskih željeznica a pri tom nemislim ništa loše nego vam želim još veći napredak i veća ulaganja u željeznicu.

What is that? Ripoff from stadler or licensed production?

don't know, they look similar, but they aren't the same design,.

Stadler,
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1365/stadler1ji6.jpg
http://switzerland.railroadpictures.net/Rolling_Stock/EMU/Stadler_FLIRT/IMG_9930_tn1024.JPG

Koncar
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3821/1005163.jpg
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/3812/garindsc04184.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/markec_2008/izgled3.jpg

Končar's train is ripoff of their own Crotram.

hm, we did not, hm

That is not that train.

This was Končar's project and it was made for BiH.

http://www.poslovni.hr/img/ArticleImages/27362.jpg

http://www.vjesnik.hr/html/2006/02/23/vlak.jpg

This is the train that they developed together with Gredelj for Croatian market.

Going way too offtopic here tho..

how about Crotrain by Koncar, 75m long, 160kmph, 5 million euros per train. Croatia ordered 67 of these, Bosnia 1, but more to follow.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3821/1005163.jpg

Looks interesting...and has lot better paint scheme,but afaik,they didn't enter on our train procurement process. Contenders were Stadler (won),Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles SA or simply CAF and Alstom. Some fourth one was also,but it failed to enter contest.

Btw,here's the first paint scheme design (now abandoned) for our new Stadler's. Looks like Elektriraudtee has removed all older designs from their photo stream,so I had to google around bit to find some renders of older designs.
http://www.aerogistica.com/leht/images/stories/raudteeveod/elektriraudtee_stadler.jpg

About those electronic display boards in bus stops...I hope that they never but those to all stops. First place should be all trams stops. Because trams can have electrical problems and in morning you are sleepy and wait tram to get to work, but it just dont come, but as sleepy you are from last night activity, you just wait 15 mins before you start thinking...hm...why busstop is overcrowded and busses aswell. So it should have fast form of giving all kinds of traffic info and maybe even weather (but that reminds me that stupid weather info displays inside of all trams and trolleys - so it can be made not bad but not good, if its not focused).

Few time ago, It was the Global Wind Day, I talked with local Toyota representative, and she said, that they are ready to bring to Tallinn electric cars. I sayd OK, have you talked for example with TALLINK to make "green" taxi's and taxi stops, what are also are electric stations...they said, that, cool idea, but worst problem is to find company who wants to build or buy electric stations and operate in Estonia - and that is where the dog is buried.

so much about my last help to make Tallinn urban transportation better.
cheers,

About those electronic display boards in bus stops...I hope that they never but those to all stops. First place should be all trams stops. Because trams can have electrical problems and in morning you are sleepy and wait tram to get to work, but it just dont come, but as sleepy you are from last night activity, you just wait 15 mins before you start thinking...hm...why busstop is overcrowded and busses aswell. So it should have fast form of giving all kinds of traffic info and maybe even weather (but that reminds me that stupid weather info displays inside of all trams and trolleys - so it can be made not bad but not good, if its not focused).

+1 :cheers:

And the greatest thing is that all system could be manufactured here,in Estonia. Afaik,some company in Tallinn produces commercial display boards (let's face it - bus & tram stop displays are lot simpler) and TTÜ has all sorts of expertise for composting this system. It would need trams,buses etc to have GPS transmitters & all stops need wifi link for receiving information. Putting up such system is only a matter of money.

Few time ago, It was the Global Wind Day, I talked with local Toyota representative, and she said, that they are ready to bring to Tallinn electric cars. I sayd OK, have you talked for example with TALLINK to make "green" taxi's and taxi stops, what are also are electric stations...they said, that, cool idea, but worst problem is to find company who wants to build or buy electric stations and operate in Estonia - and that is where the dog is buried.

so much about my last help to make Tallinn urban transportation better.
cheers,

That's bit surprising...considering that you can basically build a recharging station by simply moving few electric sockets to place where electric cars can access them :D All those fast rechargers etc are additional features. If you work in Downtown for...say,7-8 hours,it really doesn't matter if you can recharge your electric car in 10-30minutes or in few hours.

I think it's more of a problem of finding a company who is accepting fact that they can't make huge profits from it (this rules out all gas stations :D) City government could make some company for operating those stations (at least for some time) because it take ages before electric cars reach same numbers as gas powered cars. Let's face it - 10-15 years ago it was hard to find service stations with gas pumps too,but now they are quite common.

One more part of Kotka street is closed for reconstruction,between Tedre street & Nõmme road,although in this case it's related to underground heating pipes construction near A Le Coq Arena. This part of Kotka street will remain closed until 18th August (some sources also mention 20th August)

I'm not sure if they rebuild entire Kotka street between Tedre street and Nõmme road or simply pave only few places.

Map of reconstruction works on Kotka street. Light blue - previous road reconstruction & widening project (funded by Kristiine shopping centre). Dark blue - new road reconstruction project (by city & Tallinna Küte)
http://i33.tinypic.com/2n9doqd.jpg

And view from Vindi street towards Kotka street.
http://i37.tinypic.com/2m7t8uu.jpg

few bits of info about electric cars:
In end of this year, a project about that issue will be published and I will demonstrate it to our estonian administration in Bruxelles (also S Kallas). And I hope it will be next kick-ass project from Estonia to all EU.

Further more, a it-project for Tallinn Urban Transportation may launch during Tallinn 2011 Cultural Capital.
It basically means, that in medium quantity of bus and tram stops - all tourists and locals can look with iPhones and other gadgets from private wi-fi areas a infopage, where are next cultural events and all bus and tram timetables to get there where they want (also some reminders) - that means my friend Tin Can, that basically all latest info is always in your pocket (plus transport timetables and suggestions)

yeah!

Looks interesting...and has lot better paint scheme,but afaik,they didn't enter on our train procurement process. Contenders were Stadler (won),Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles SA or simply CAF and Alstom. Some fourth one was also,but it failed to enter contest.

Btw,here's the first paint scheme design (now abandoned) for our new Stadler's. Looks like Elektriraudtee has removed all older designs from their photo stream,so I had to google around bit to find some renders of older designs.
http://www.aerogistica.com/leht/images/stories/raudteeveod/elektriraudtee_stadler.jpg

stadler was also in croatian competion to supply 67 emv/dmvs but they lost to a domestic manufacturer, Koncar, which you might know for their trams.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Zagreb_tram_(11).jpg/800px-Zagreb_tram_(11).jpg

Train is quite good, but still being tested. I hope croatia orders these instead or some new design spicy was talking about, i like this design too.

:cheers:

few bits of info about electric cars:
In end of this year, a project about that issue will be published and I will demonstrate it to our estonian administration in Bruxelles (also S Kallas). And I hope it will be next kick-ass project from Estonia to all EU.

Further more, a it-project for Tallinn Urban Transportation may launch during Tallinn 2011 Cultural Capital.
It basically means, that in medium quantity of bus and tram stops - all tourists and locals can look with iPhones and other gadgets from private wi-fi areas a infopage, where are next cultural events and all bus and tram timetables to get there where they want (also some reminders) - that means my friend Tin Can, that basically all latest info is always in your pocket (plus transport timetables and suggestions)

yeah!


Why oh why did I change from a wifi phone to a no-wifi phone just before I moved here :´(.

Anyone interested in a Nokia 5230 :p?

few bits of info about electric cars:
In end of this year, a project about that issue will be published and I will demonstrate it to our estonian administration in Bruxelles (also S Kallas). And I hope it will be next kick-ass project from Estonia to all EU.

Further more, a it-project for Tallinn Urban Transportation may launch during Tallinn 2011 Cultural Capital.
It basically means, that in medium quantity of bus and tram stops - all tourists and locals can look with iPhones and other gadgets from private wi-fi areas a infopage, where are next cultural events and all bus and tram timetables to get there where they want (also some reminders) - that means my friend Tin Can, that basically all latest info is always in your pocket (plus transport timetables and suggestions)

yeah!

That's cool! :cheers: I hope they keep this project running after European Culture Capital year has ended. It might be useful in long term.

Why oh why did I change from a wifi phone to a no-wifi phone just before I moved here :´(.

Anyone interested in a Nokia 5230 :p?

That's is so weak,man! :D Are you saying that there are mobile phones out there,which don't have wifi? :P

^^ You use WiFi? Geez, I thought everbody's running their phones on 3,5G already.

^^ You use WiFi? Geez, I thought everbody's running their phones on 3,5G already.

Yeah, I do use 3,5G sometimes, but I hate the prices for that here... In Belgium I was with www.mobilevikings.com , they offer 1GB and 1000 free SMS's for €15 a month on a normal recharge card...

Here it's 50kr for 1MB, 99kr for 30MB, 150kr for 150MB...

Here it's 50kr for 1MB, 99kr for 30MB, 150kr for 150MB...
Come on it's not that expensive. It's more like 100kr for unlimited MB. Yes the speed is capped to 3G speeds but mobile phones usually don't need more.

I have a 35 kr package which contains 5MB of data. Fortunately I don't need more, because a WiFi hot-spot is usually no more than a walking distance away in Tallinn.

Well,wifi offers better speeds & is cheaper (although it also kills phone battery life) than 3G internet. So if you end up in same (wifi) spot several times in month,then it's useful to use wifi.

____________

Anyway,back to topic.
List of most dangerous traffic junctions in Tallinn (by traffic accidents in first half of 2010):

1. Rocca Al Mare roundabout (Paldiski highway-Rannamõisa road-Ehitajate road) - 93 traffic accidents. Planned to be rebuilt (nothing is certain,though)
2. Ülemiste junction (Tartu highway-Peterburi road-Suur Sõjamäe road-Järvevana road junction) - 64 traffic accidents. Will be rebuilt into multi level interchange.
3. Taksoparki ristmik / Taxi park interchange (Endla street-Tulika street-Sõpruse avenue junction) - 62 traffic accidents.

Source: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/581955

Back to PT. For those who don't know, these are the type of trains that run on the suburban electrified lines around Tallinn, operated by Elektriraudtee:

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/507/p1050305i.jpg (http://img819.imageshack.us/i/p1050305i.jpg/)

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3548/p1050308d.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/p1050308d.jpg/)

Train to Keila arriving in Lilleküla (flower village?) station.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/6889/p1050317.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/p1050317.jpg/)

Train to Tallinn

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6118/p1050321b.jpg (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/p1050321b.jpg/)

Each wagon has different exits on either side of the wagon. One is meant for stations with high platforms and the other one for stations with low platforms. A map in the middle of the carriage shows which stations have low/high platforms.

Every station from Saue westwards(Saue included) now has a new low platform

Kragujevac - BIK starts with serial production
...
Estonian buyer already ordered first five busses with possibility of much more later.
...

^^ Today
Kragujevac,Serbia - BIK factory which produces LNG busses under licence from Belarus MAZ .

http://www.sumadijapress.com/UserFiles/Galleries/VulovicTrans/Vulovic%20transport04%5Esasa.jpg

http://www.sumadijapress.com/UserFiles/Galleries/VulovicTrans/Vulovic%20transport01%5Esasa.jpg

:cheers:

Interesting. It must be MRP Linna Liinid,who's ordering those busses,as they already operate Maz buses and usually bus companies here stick to specific manufacturers. In that case those buses would be first LNG buses officially put in use here (previously some LNG buses have been tested here)

Interesting. It must be MRP Linna Liinid,who's ordering those busses,as they already operate Maz buses and usually bus companies here stick to specific manufacturers. In that case those buses would be first LNG buses officially put in use here (previously some LNG buses have been tested here)

Ooo,interesting indeed. :)

Well,this company is owned by a man who also owns a one of two Public City Transportation companies in the city. First,they ordered MAZ buses 7 or 8 years back,and then in cooperation with Faculty of Mechanical Engineering they produced a LNG motors,and now they fabricate buses with more than 80% Serbian parts with a licence from MAZ. Interesting thing is that every bus that company uses is a LNG,even the old ones got that. :)

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5046/man20.jpg

As far as this MAZ/BIK 203 you ordered,it has been veryh good so far in our and Belgrade's city transportation. :okay:
In Kragujevac:
http://a.imageshack.us/img22/4258/alim0448.jpg

Cheers. :cheers1:

No those ones.. please!!!!

MAZ buses are crap, sorry. The one I've ridden with doesn't even have double glazing which is essential in our climate. This means that from late autumn till early spring you can't see out of the bus because the windows are foggy, not to mention you'll freeze your butts off.

another fat ass puts money in his pocket and buys MAZ buses. crap.:ohno:

Those MAZ buses can't be worse than those MB Connecto's (aren't those operated by MRP Linnaliinid too?),operating between airport & harbour. I've had 'pleasure' of using those few times and they are pure crap. :no:

Btw,SEBE also plans to purchase new buses - 50 (some sources claim 51) Scania-made city buses for Tartu.

For foreigners - unlike Tallinn,who operates most lines with city owned/controlled bus company (Tallinna Autobussikoondis,or in short - TAK) + few smaller lines are operated by private bus companies,Tartu bus lines are operated purely by private bus company. SEBE recently won competition (despite lots of backstabbing & dirty play on it) for operating Tartu lines from 1st January 2011 up to 2017. I think Tartu people really win from it - they get new buses AND new design for those buses :cheers:

Those MAZ buses can't be worse than those MB Connecto's (aren't those operated by MRP Linnaliinid too?),operating between airport & harbour. I've had 'pleasure' of using those few times and they are pure crap. :no:
You're right, MRP operates those on route 2 between airport and harbour. They also run on route 13 between Õismäe and Lasnamäe, which is constantly overpacked with people, because it's a quick way of moving between these big districts without having to pass through the city centre. I don't quite see, why these buses are pure crap? Sure, both 2 and 13 require articulated buses (13 more than 2), but that's up to city government, whose order MRP has to comply with.

Btw,SEBE also plans to purchase new buses - 50 (some sources claim 51) Scania-made city buses for Tartu.
As far as I know, Sebe plans to purchase:
28 new normal-sized Scania Omnilink buses (23 diesel, 5 gas buses)
13 new midi-sized buses SOR
10 used articulated buses (8 Volvo, 2 Scania Omnilink)
All buses will have low floors.

They're also hiring 130 new bus drivers. And more - the new contract transfers ticket selling from bus companies to the city, so now Tartu is searching for a reliable way to circulate bus tickets.

New, fall timetables will become active on August 30th in Tartu and September 1st in Tallinn. Lots of new county routes will start service (7 routes in Rae Parish, 2 in Jõelähtme Parish, 2 in Kose Parish, 6 in Harku Parish). Probably the stupidest thing in Tallinn is that route 23, which was shortened to the city centre for summer will not be extended back to the bus station.

I don't quite see, why these buses are pure crap?

Very uncomfortable ride and cheap interior. Although cheap & crappy interior is common to most commercial Mercedes-Benz buses & trucks (except few expensive hi-end buses) Yeah,I know...it has to be vandalism proof,but compare Connecto's to Scania & Volvo buses and you'll notice that MB's are almost like ..prison buses! :lol:

Probably the stupidest thing in Tallinn is that route 23, which was shortened to the city centre for summer will not be extended back to the bus station.

How 'nice'. :no: 23 offered good way of getting from Mustamäe & Western Downtown to central bus station.

^^ That's very typical of Tallinn government to introduce "temporary" cuts in public transport which then become permanent.

I have a big question for all Tallinners, though. When do you think(if ever) will we see improvements in Tallinn public transport? I'm not talking about new buses and trolleybuses but more frequent timetables, more routes, better timing between different lines and maybe even different modes of transport, major repair works of Tallinn tram lines etc. I think we can forget about new tram lines, not even mentioning a system of fast light-rail lines.

I as a permanent optimist still believe that Tallinn will see new tram routes in the next 10-15 years. But one time for improvements might be 2013, when the new local elections take place. Current city government needs to show, that they're good and improve public transport. But when some other party wins, they need to show, that they're better than the previous and improve transport. That's how I see things :D.

I have a big question for all Tallinners, though. When do you think(if ever) will we see improvements in Tallinn public transport? I'm not talking about new buses and trolleybuses but more frequent timetables, more routes, better timing between different lines and maybe even different modes of transport, major repair works of Tallinn tram lines etc. I think we can forget about new tram lines, not even mentioning a system of fast light-rail lines.

Somewhere between 'very distant future' and 'never'. Current Tallinn mayor & co. have managed to do more damage to public transportation system than all previous city governments (remember previous mayors discussing about 'getting rid of useless tram & trolleybus lines' :nuts:) Tbh,for a long time Tallinn hasn't had city government who really understands importance of good,working PT in urban environment.

Let's count all the things done so far by politicians currently ruling the city - reducing all PT lines frequency and reorganizing PT schedule (I read it somewhere that PT schedule has been reorganized ~50 times within last few years),shorter bus lines,killing tramline no.3,removing all night buses & trams (:bash:)...

It's almost like a war...against Tallinners!

On the bright side - it can't get any worse than it already is! :lol:

Can't? How about going same way as some Russian cities: close down tram and trolleybuses and give PT to private marhutkas :D

^^ BTW, has anyone else noticed that route taxis in Harjumaa are cheaper, often faster and more frequent than public bus lines? And public buses receive huge subsidies from the state.

One example:

My family has a summer cottage in Laulasmaa so I go there several times every summer on my own so by PT. The ride is from Tallinn to Tornimäe(which is a stop in Laulasmaa).

When using public lines, the price is 42 EEK, the journey takes 1 h and there are 8 buses a day.
When using route taxis, the price is 35 EEK, the journey takes approx 1h and there are 21 minibuses a day.

Not to mention that public lines depart and arrive in Balti Jaam from where I have to take the tram to Viru Centre to get home.

I as a permanent optimist still believe that Tallinn will see new tram routes in the next 10-15 years. But one time for improvements might be 2013, when the new local elections take place. Current city government needs to show, that they're good and improve public transport. But when some other party wins, they need to show, that they're better than the previous and improve transport. That's how I see things :D.

Your concept is nice but whoever will win there is not going to be much difference in public transportation, it will take time and in 2013 these things seems quite impossible.

What are my options to get to the city center once I arrive to Tallin by plane?

What are my options to get to the city center once I arrive to Tallin by plane?
Bus route no. 2, the stop in front of the Arrivals terminal. City-bound buses usually have blinking LED boards alternating between "Kesklinn" and "Reisisadam" with accompanying pictures.

Taxi is also an option. Cheapest ones are Sõbra Takso en Saksa Takso (check google for their websites, phone numbers and tarrifs). They probably charge a bit more for airport transfer, but you should be able to get a ride for max 65 krones (about €4)

dudes Tallinn Airport have said, that there are some german tourists, who always want to walk to city. But sometimes they just go to Tartu direction...yup, just call the taxi, but I have heard, that this Sõbra taxi is too busy (its cheap) so get more phone numbers or grab from front of arrivals, or bus (ticket from busdriver...25 kr (1.50 euros)

^^ BTW, has anyone else noticed that route taxis in Harjumaa are cheaper, often faster and more frequent than public bus lines? And public buses receive huge subsidies from the state.

One example:

My family has a summer cottage in Laulasmaa so I go there several times every summer on my own so by PT. The ride is from Tallinn to Tornimäe(which is a stop in Laulasmaa).

When using public lines, the price is 42 EEK, the journey takes 1 h and there are 8 buses a day.
When using route taxis, the price is 35 EEK, the journey takes approx 1h and there are 21 minibuses a day.

Not to mention that public lines depart and arrive in Balti Jaam from where I have to take the tram to Viru Centre to get home.

Oh yeah,those buses are really great stuff! :) Few years ago I often used to take route taxi to Kuusalu,to my friends place, (some ~30km east of Tallinn) and ticket was only 30EEK or smth. Anyway,it was dirt cheap - less than 1EEK per single kilometer! :cheers:

For those of you,who haven't seen any route taxis before - those are minivans & buses,like this one:
http://static1.fotoalbum.ee/fotoalbum/20/516/020516577e1613.jpg

Last week I checked out progress on roadworks near Haapsalu town border. Roadworks now cover 15km on Ääsmäe-Haapsalu highway,from Haapsalu border towards Tallinn...but that's whole different story,more fit for Highways thread. Anyway,for urban infrastructure thread - a pic from Haapsalu town:

http://i56.tinypic.com/72rw1s.jpg

I noticed in Uuemõisa... a friggin' roundabout! Those things are creeping from low traffic roads to main roads :bash:

Lol, you guys are also getting a rotary?

Oh yeah,those buses are really great stuff! :) Few years ago I often used to take route taxi to Kuusalu,to my friends place, (some ~30km east of Tallinn) and ticket was only 30EEK or smth. Anyway,it was dirt cheap - less than 1EEK per single kilometer! :cheers:

Samat made an interesting switch on Saku-Tallinn commercial route recently.
Before thay had minibuses running every 15 minutes
Like these:
http://oxygen.pri.ee/albums/userpics/10001/Samat_068MLI_-_Renault_Master_%5B2008%5D_-_Manniku_tee_19_03_2009.jpg

And now they have bigger buses running every 30 minutes
http://oxygen.pri.ee/albums/userpics/10001/Samat_960MNG_-_SOR_C9_5_%5B2009%5D_-_Samat_AS_-_Parnu_mnt_12_08_2010.jpg

They are still basically route taxis as they do not stop at all bus stops, only when people indicate they want to get on or off. The ticket for the 30-minute 17km trip is still 25 EEK (1.60€)

Is it cheaper than a one-way trip on the Elektriraudtee?

Well,C-zone tickets on Elektriraudtee cost 25 to 30 smth EEK (C-zone being the largest extent of electric railway..A-zone is basically Tallinn city)

Route taxis have more or less same price,but are more frequent than trains and have final stop in the center of Downtown (unlike central train station,which is on the border of Downtown)

Southern direction (i.e. Edelaraudtee diesel trains running to Pärnu & Viljandi direction) has slightly cheaper ticket price. For example,same direction as jkk mentioned - Saku,is 15 EEK by diesel train. Anyway,diesel trains have even less frequent schedule.

Thank u guys for the advices :) There's any hope that there will be a subway/tram connection to the airport someday?

Route taxis have more or less same price,but are more frequent than trains and have final stop in the center of Downtown (unlike central train station,which is on the border of Downtown)

Not necessarily. Tallinn-Keila is 19EEK by train(discount price is 13 EEK) and with a route taxi it's 30 EEK(and no discount prices).

Thank u guys for the advices :) There's any hope that there will be a subway/tram connection to the airport someday?

Yes there is,as nearby Ülemiste road junction (soon to be U/C) has space for planned tram line marked in the project and planned Tartu highway widening project (south of airport) seems to have space for tram line too. This suggests that future tram line would continue further south by atleast one more station.

So far newspapers have mentioned two possibilities - common tram line to airport and underground tram line to airport. However,it's unlikely that this line would be built within next 10 years...but then again,tram connection to airport would be highly profitable route so who knows...maybe we see it sooner.

According to this article (http://www.tallinnapostimees.ee/?id=308789) in Postimees, Kotka & Asula street pedestrian tunnel for crossing railway is delayed and construction will start in next year. Originally construction was planned to start in this year.

View from railway down towards Kotka street (Source: Postimees)
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/05/427900t44h7e96.jpg

Location of the tunnel (red):
http://i56.tinypic.com/1531i60.jpg

Article itself is pure 'gold',because city official Jannu Kuusik claims:
«Siin võib vaid kolm korda üle õla sülitada ja õnne tänada, et selle koha peal veel ühtegi õnnetust juhtunud ei ole. See on tunneli jaoks kõige vajalikum ja loogilisem koht,»

This is retarded comment as construction of tunnel was proposed in last winter,right after railway accident in which man was hit & seriously injured by train. Plus there have been several more accidents there before,so next time city officials should read some information,before claiming that this location is 'accident free' :bash:

^^ I think that the in the future, all major railways in Tallinn should be fenced so you could cross the railway only via a tunnel, a bridge or via at-grade crossings with warning lights(like they have at Lilleküla stop). Firstly, it would increase safety and secondly, that would allow to raise the speed limit for trains within city borders(which is a pathetic 60km/h on Tallinn-Pääsküla line, slower than in the 30s)

Tomorrow begins the reconstruction of Pirita and Rummu road intersection, which will have traffic lights after it's finished. That way the traffic will be less hectic, yet still smoothly running. The project costs 9 million EEK and the reconstruction lasts for a month.
Also, a new bus stop will be created near Pirita Selver.

tallinnapostimees.ee (http://www.tallinnapostimees.ee/?id=297471) (in Estonian)

And here's how it looked in the morning:

Additional right turn lane to Selver & Neste
http://i56.tinypic.com/2h8bgxu.jpg

Rummu & Pirita roads intersection.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2csdkiw.jpg

Closer look:
http://i56.tinypic.com/30j411h.jpg

I bet roadworks create traffic jam every evening when people are returning to Pirita & Viimsi from work :D It's interesting to see how they are planning to fit right turn to Selver,bus stop pocket in front of it and right turn to Rummu road on single lane (bit...tight? :D)

It's interesting to see how they are planning to fit right turn to Selver,bus stop pocket in front of it and right turn to Rummu road on single lane (bit...tight? :D)
A roundabout will solve it. Roundabouts solve every traffic issue in Tallinn :lol:.

^^ I think that the in the future, all major railways in Tallinn should be fenced so you could cross the railway only via a tunnel, a bridge or via at-grade crossings with warning lights(like they have at Lilleküla stop). Firstly, it would increase safety and secondly, that would allow to raise the speed limit for trains within city borders(which is a pathetic 60km/h on Tallinn-Pääsküla line, slower than in the 30s)

How many people used to get killed in 1930-s walking over or on railway? I do not see why fences should be needed to raise speed limits....

I bet roadworks create traffic jam every evening when people are returning to Pirita & Viimsi from work :D It's interesting to see how they are planning to fit right turn to Selver,bus stop pocket in front of it and right turn to Rummu road on single lane (bit...tight? :D)
I'm really disappointed about this whole "project". I was expecting to see a proper full intersection but this is just a mere extension of the current situation with a few traffic lights on it. And even though this "new" intersection gets rid of some potential collision points, it creates others elsewhere(like the double-right-turn-bus-stop-exit-for-the-gas-station solution)
And are they really going to keep the Rummu bus stop? I don't see the point of that, really, besides getting tourists 200m closer to Pirita TOP hotel. With another bus stop at Pirita Selver, we will have 3 stops within 700m in an area that's suburban in nature...

How many people used to get killed in 1930-s walking over or on railway? I do not see why fences should be needed to raise speed limits....
Fences are needed because people are stupid, blind, listening to their iPod and simply not paying enough attention. A major railway at ground level in an urban area is a potential hazzard whatever the speed is. But if you raise the speed limit for trains to 80km/h, for example, the risk increases. Of course, there are the concerns about noise but when the tracks are in a good condition(which they should be) and with proper trains, I don't see the need for that many noise barriers. In Stockholm, for example, the speed limit for commuter trains is 90km/h within city proper and 160km/h in the suburbs.

Illegal railway crossing should be made as uncomfortable as possible,to force people to use correct crossing locations (warning signs simply get ignored) Of course,this means that lots of additional pedestrian tunnels & crossings are needed (afaik,Eesti Raudtee has located 7-8 spots in Tallinn which need pedestrian tunnels) Lilleküla is good example - before building fence around the railway,people used to cross it where ever they could,but now they are forced to take slightly longer,but also lot safer routes. Rebasepoiss is right about slow train speeds. Most train driver tend to slow down even on illegal railway crossings,because some lunatic might run across the railway.

Two dangerous situations I've witnessed:
Years ago,when first American freight locomotives arrived,they used them for pulling long trains (~100 tank cars filled with oil,gasoline etc) One of them managed to broke down right between Järve & Tondi stations (railway has small incline there,train was too heavy and grind to a halt) Stopped train incidentally closed Tondi railway crossing. Most people walked around the train (kilometre long walk),but some decided to crawl under wagons to the other side! :bash: Needless to say,same time train crew was trying to get engine working ...from time to time,train moved few meters. It was a pure miracle that nobody wasn't killed that day :ohno:

Second one was few months ago. When waiting for electric train in Tondi stop,I saw man slowly walking with his bicycle over the railway...while train was closing in! Distance between man and train was less than 100m...maybe 60-70 meters :no: Train driver tried to get his attention by signalling,but he simply ignored it. I'm not sure if he was deaf,blind (all other traffic had stopped because of train) or suicidal,but it was really f**king disturbing sight.

We can only hope that fences will be built around railway tracks in Tallinn,as fast as possible.

I once witnessed an occasion near Ülemiste, where an older man was beginning to cross the railway (from a correct crossing), when one of those American locomotives closed in. He had almost stepped on the rails and the train was max. 10-20 metres away from him, he didn't hear any shouts nor signals from the train. Luckily he heard the last signal and quickly jumped back, but the accident could've been quite awful.

https://www.tartu.ee/data/biogasbus_logo.jpg

LNG refuelling station will be built by Eesti Gaas to Tähe 135E in Tartu. This will mainly serve new LNG buses (private cars can also buy gas there) what Sebe plans to start using in Tartu next year. Bad thing is that it will be finished in March (next year) so use of LNG buses will probably be delayed. This is part of Baltic Biogas Bus project.

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/08/429348t41hf33f.jpg

Looks like Tartu will become first city in Estonia which uses LNG buses on large scale. I feel envy! :D (Damn Tallinn PT with it's budget cuts :ohno:)

https://www.tartu.ee/data/biogasbus_logo.jpg

LNG refuelling station will be built by Eesti Gaas to Tähe 135E in Tartu. This will mainly serve new LNG buses (private cars can also buy gas there) what Sebe plans to start using in Tartu next year. Bad thing is that it will be finished in March (next year) so use of LNG buses will probably be delayed. This is part of Baltic Biogas Bus project.

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/08/429348t41hf33f.jpg

Looks like Tartu will become first city in Estonia which uses LNG buses on large scale. I feel envy! :D (Damn Tallinn PT with it's budget cuts :ohno:)

despite the budget cuts, Tallinn PT is still a heavensend compared to Tartu...

Estonian forumers might want to show these photos to their parents & grandparents (nostalgic moment for them!) :D For over a month now there are two historic buses waiting in central bus station in Tallinn and one of them is really interesting - Ikarus 55. Such buses were also used on regional lines in Estonia in late 50s - 60s (although they had red-white paint scheme,instead of this bus orange-white)

If the route sign is correct on this bus,then this bus originally served in Jena,East-Germany (at that time) :D
http://i54.tinypic.com/i43hic.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/358q3iv.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2mpbldv.jpg

Pretty cool,huh?

What will you do with them? Museum?

What will you do with them? Museum?

It's unlikely that they end up in museum. Afaik,both buses are owned by local bus companies,so they most likely rent them out or use them for promotional purposes - as in this case. Second historic bus there (old Setra) has Mootor Grupp & it's member companies logos on it (Mootor Grupp is umbrella organisation of regional bus companies)

It's seems that they are quite useful for advertising,as many Estonians were looking at those buses & few tourists were taking photos of them (probably first time when tourists take photos in central bus station! :lol:)

well, central bus station has also its own new small roundabout:lol:

^^ It has been there for quite a long while now. You should see the skill needed to turn a 15m long Bova into the bus station...
I'd really enjoy personally firing the guy who designed a mini roundabout just next to a bus station...

Tulika street extension between Nõmme road & Endla street has been finished (previous update (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=60728345&postcount=3))

Starting from Nõmme road and moving towards Tulika-Endla interchange.
'Lilleküla Jaam' bus stops & pedestrian crossing.
http://i56.tinypic.com/282gxm8.jpg

First new roundabout - connecting Kristiine shopping centre parking lot with Tulika street. Btw,you can also see U/C shopping centre extension on this photo.
http://i56.tinypic.com/5f3imx.jpg

And second roundabout,connecting Koskla & Tulika streets.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2eod6qx.jpg

Looking back,you can see that road is now considerably wider (remember,2+2 instead of old 1+1)
http://i55.tinypic.com/acetdg.jpg

Two additional side streets. One of them connects Tulika street & Kristiine shopping centre parking house.
http://i55.tinypic.com/2hi87ya.jpg

New bus stop in front of Kristiine Linnaosa Valitsuse building.
http://i51.tinypic.com/2ym7fd1.jpg

Glad to see that the roundabouts are (or at least seem to be) normal-sized, not like the ones built in Lasnamäe. I also noticed, that the bus stop sign seems to have the stop name already written on it (the white stripe under bus icon) - did you happen to notice the name, or perhaps am I just seeing wrong?

I guess it will also be named "Taksopark" ;)

Yeah,it's 'Taksopark' (I checked full size photo) Tbh,I didn't go to Koskla street nor did I checked bus lines running from this bus stop,so I don't know which lines stop there (my guess is it's probably relocated Koskla street bus stop)

Both roundabouts seem to be adequate (although I still think roundabouts are useless :D) - in another words buses & large trucks are able to use them properly. I saw 23 line articulated bus taking corners there and it didn't had any problems.

Some updates from Tallinn, effective from October:

The final stop for 17A at military cemetary will be named "Veskiposti".
An additional stop for 26A between Paljassaare and Paljassaare põik will be named "Paagi".
The stop created adjacent to Pirita Selver will be named "Rummu kõrts" (< no kidding, seems quite absurd to me).
City buses will start using the stop created next to Solaris centre, while commercial route taxis start using the current "Estonia" bus stop.

The stop created adjacent to Pirita Selver will be named "Rummu kõrts" (< no kidding, seems quite absurd to me).

:lol: Why don't they just name it "Pirita Selver". Nobody has had a problem with the stop "Kadaka Selver" before, for example.



City buses will start using the stop created next to Solaris centre, while commercial route taxis start using the current "Estonia" bus stop.


Isn't the stop next to Solaris centre a bit cramped for city buses? And previously there was a speed bump when entering the parking spaces which is definitely a no-no for buses. Has it been removed?

Isn't the stop next to Solaris centre a bit cramped for city buses? And previously there was a speed bump when entering the parking spaces which is definitely a no-no for buses. Has it been removed?
They expanded the stop, so that a regular city bus would fit in there, and they also smoothed the entrance and exit curves and asphalt.

I think it is a good solution, as the current stop is way too narrow - every morning when people (including myself) exit the bus, they have basically nowhere to go, because there are just so much people waiting to get on. Next to Solaris there is plenty of free space, so people can get on and off in humane conditions.
Also, they rebuilt the current stop, so that it has a weird corner sticking out from the curb - currently a real nuisance for city buses, as they can't just drive straight into the stop anymore.
The current bus stop has two lanes, while the one next to Solaris has only one. City buses don't have a terminus (with resting break) there, so they only drive in and out. Route taxis have a terminus stop there, which means that when one taxi drives into its stop and stays there for 15 minutes, all other taxis behind it have to have an option of overtaking.

Some updates from Tallinn, effective from October:

The final stop for 17A at military cemetary will be named "Veskiposti".


Why didn't they named it 'Sõjaväekalmistu' ? It would have made lot more sense,as we have only one military cemetary in Tallinn and it would have made it much easier for people to figure out where this bus stop is located.

The stop created adjacent to Pirita Selver will be named "Rummu kõrts" (< no kidding, seems quite absurd to me).


:lol:

Rummu kõrts is historical name, like Taksopark ;)

Rummu kõrts is historical name, like Taksopark ;)
Yes, but didn't taxi park still exist when the stop was named "Taksopark"?

TTTK is testing Bogdan T70115 trolleybus on Tallinn trolleybus lines. Previously these buses have been tested in Crimea & Donetsk (UA),Kaunas & Vilnius (LT) and Riga (LV)

I wonder if anyone actually wants to buy it...:| (it's more like a 'lol,wtf?' news ;))

Anyway,it's already in Estonia. Test drives will be on Friday & Saturday so if anyone has some info about line number where it will be used,then I'll take some photos of this trolleybus.

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/22/436860t44had7e.jpg

Bogdan T70115 has 32 seats (places for 105 passengers,without driver) Max. speed - 65km/h. Trolleybus length - 12,69m,width - 2,55m and height - 3,67m.

^^ I really hope TTTK doesn't decide to buy them...but since a procurement would have to be held, it most probably won't.

^^
Looks like it would take some time,before Bogdan would even be allowed to sell those trolleybuses within EU,as T70115's don't have EU certification. :D

Few more photos from yesterday (when PR introduction was held at TTTK trolleybus park)
Source: Delfi
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/900x585/b410ca0b/file33351743_d8623128.jpg
Source: Postimees
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/23/437414t54hd1f6.jpg

Driver seat is separated from passengers with glass wall. I'm not sure how useful this is.
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/23/437417t54ha764.jpg http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/23/437419t54h6c26.jpg
Colourful testing history! :D
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/23/437424t54hf597.jpg
Interior
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/23/437423t54h2446.jpg

Full gallery is here: http://www.tallinnapostimees.ee/?g=2039&art=317178#72661

Btw,local trolleybus drivers were happy with driver compartment,but noticed several annoying flaws in passengers section.

^^ I really hope TTTK doesn't decide to buy them...but since a procurement would have to be held, it most probably won't.

Was there a procurement when the city government effectively decided to buy Chinese trams?

Btw,has anyone managed to get new Elektriraudtee chip card? Elektriraudtee mentioned in their blog that cards have been already sold out and new batch is coming in next few weeks (damn,I missed my chance to buy one :ohno:) Thankfully they have also extended their 'get chip card free if you load 100 EEK to it' offer until the end of October (otherwise card costs 40 EEK) Those chip cards give excellent option of ignoring paper tickets and/or leaving ID-card at home.

It would be nice if someone would take photos of new Elektriraudtee card & posted them here (there aren't ANY photos or renders of card design on the internet! :bash:)

^^ As some Latvian once said (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=VcTaaBeuEnY&feature=related): nasing spešal

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/3046/kaart3.jpg

I got one too, even though I use the train quite rarely. I just figured that it's better to get one now for free than to pay € 3.00 for it in the future.

^^ As some Latvian once said (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=VcTaaBeuEnY&feature=related): nasing spešal

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/3046/kaart3.jpg

Oh dear. It looks like crap...especially in comparison to Helsinki PT card designs (both old & new)

^^ The colours are a bit off on the photo. But the design is no masterpiece none the less.

Random nobody-cares-about-this message :p. Autumn has come to Estonia and apparantly for the trams that means that they have serious troubles getting a grip on the rails at a lot of places. The result of that is that they go even slower than in good conditions (so around 10-15kph).

^^ Slippery conditions are especially difficult for non-modernised trams that have acceleration pedals which work as on/off buttons. That means you can't be gentle on the throttle to gain grip either.

Don't trams usually have sanders? (storages for sand,which could be dispersed on the tracks,in front of wheels, for better wheel grip on steep hills) Maybe TTTK hasn't filled them with sand yet (sügis tuli jälle ootamatult :|),so trams can't use full speed on hills.

I've seen some modern trams in Europe with them...tbh,I don't know if our trams have them.

^^ They should have them...but I guess it takes quite a lot of time to sand the tracks at every stop so mostly the tram drivers don't bother :D

^^ Maybe they're only allowed to use it under certain conditions harsher than now? For example, drivers aren't allowed to turn on heating unless it is under 0°C outside.

The launch of Tallinn's new ticketing system has been postponed (http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/584317) a year or so.

The really positive news is that the system will now be the same for both Tallinn and Harjumaa.

The negative news is that nobody thinks a little further. It is just a small step from a unified ticket system to a unified organisation, and Edelaraudtee is still isolated. And what about the rest of the country? The state should be much more involved in matters regarding public transport, they shouldn't be just for municipalities to decide.

^^
I wonder if there's any connection between another city budget cut and this project delays.

__________

Ülemiste junction will be built by Latvians - procurement was won by Binders.

:sleepy: I'm skeptical about this. On more than one occasion,foreign companies have f**ked up their work here and afaik,Binders hasn't done any work here before. Where are they going to get all machinery needed? Are they going to bring it from Latvia? (this could mean delays) Are they using Latvian construction workers?

And further more - such important project was given to foreign company - while almost every local construction company AND Estonian construction workers would have really needed this 1 billion+ EEK project for survival. Tbh,this is very disappointing :no:

Well last week I bought a Latvian cucumber instead of an Estonian cucumber because it was 1EEK cheaper... I guess the reason here is the same ;).


PT-related question: Do the trollies in Tallinn have back-up diesel generators? In Belgium they do (did, they've put the last ones out of service 2 years ago) but this morning I saw 4-5 trollies without passengers on Kaarli Puiestee in the middle of the road, so I guess there was a power cut and they couldn't drive further because of no diesel generator

^^ No, Estonian trolleybuses don't have diesel generators. It would add a lot to the cost and weight of a trolleybus. In Tallinn's case it's also not needed because our trolleybus lines form a separate system.


And further more - such important project was given to foreign company - while almost every local construction company AND Estonian construction workers would have really needed this 1 billion+ EEK project for survival. Tbh,this is very disappointing :no:
Don't worry so much about Estonian construction business. There are several big road projects coming up and Tallinn real estate market has been alive again for some time now.
I do hope that Latvians didn't under-bid...otherwise we'll be spending a lot more on this project than expected.

Hmm,it seems that Pirita & Rummu roads intersection was opened few days ago. Has anyone driven there? Does the new traffic scheme work?

Photo from Postimees:
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/27/439619t44h9fca.jpg

^^ Yes, I've driven there. It's OK, I guess, a lot better than it was before. It looked chaotic without the markings but now it looks neater than I first thought it would. What bothers me, though, is that when you are coming from Pirita river towards Tallinn, you have to give way to traffic coming from both the Velodrome and Pirita TOP. Even though this only applies when the traffic lights aren't working, it's still pretty weird and possibly dangerous.
The new bus stop is now also open and today it was already being used quite actively(as expected).

Excellent photos, I loved knowing a little transport
Urbano. soon as they can to post more pictures, especially
the trolleybus

EPV Lennusalk SAR-choppers......Agusta AW-139

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2590/1017186748mxpy.jpg
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6500/10171869pvdzlk.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6711/10171871vjp79h.jpg
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/221/10171875lk9acm.jpg
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2726/10171883s244fg.jpg

cheers,

Wow,another new bus demonstration was held today - this time it was Volvo 7700 Hybrid bus (prototype,afaik) for TAK. New bus would have 30% less CO2 emissions than 'ordinary' buses.

Source: EPL
http://static.epl.ee/pildid/2010/normal/173842.jpg

http://static.epl.ee/pildid/2010/normal/173843.jpg

http://static.epl.ee/pildid/2010/normal/173839.jpg

Full gallery is here: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/585271

A bit better photo from internet:
http://image.trucktrend.com/f/11023221/163_news080929_00z+volvo_7700_hybrid_bus+front_view.jpg

It looks so cool with it's retro styling. :happy:

whats wrong with volvo buses, when they arrive in estonia. that bus looks (interior) like its made somewhere in balkans or by slavic designer or factory.

no percent of nordic design whatsoever in that vehicle,
sorry, but that volvo grille wont save the outcome.

True,it's interior sucks.

Btw,looks like they didn't even put this bus in use for testing. MAN didn't had any trouble of letting TAK use their Lion's City CNG bus for testing when it was in Estonia :P

Savisaar is in China and described the plans for transportation:
http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/eesti/savisaar-raakis-hangzhous-lasnamae-trammist.d?id=33927841

I just found some documents from last year's "city forum". I am sure that some of you were there, but I see these pdf-s for the first time, and I now hate K-Projekt even more than before! Just look at some of these (http://www.arhitektuurikeskus.ee/linnafoorumid/taust/K-Projekt.pdf) drawings of Põhjaväil, especially the Russalka junction! Another one (http://www.arhitektuurikeskus.ee/linnafoorumid/taust/Vanasadama%20louaosa%20eeleskiis.pdf), an architectural vision is more promising. Again, you may have seen them before, but I definitely think the project needs much more discussion.

Kaarepere viadukti ehitab Nordecon

Wow,another new bus demonstration was held today - this time it was Volvo 7700 Hybrid bus (prototype,afaik) for TAK. New bus would have 30% less CO2 emissions than 'ordinary' buses.

Source: EPL
http://static.epl.ee/pildid/2010/normal/173842.jpg



It looks so cool with it's retro styling. :happy:

Made in Poland :) In Volvo bus factory Wroclaw.

Ülemiste junction will be built by Latvians - procurement was won by Binders.

:sleepy: I'm skeptical about this. On more than one occasion,foreign companies have f**ked up their work here and afaik,Binders hasn't done any work here before. Where are they going to get all machinery needed? Are they going to bring it from Latvia? (this could mean delays) Are they using Latvian construction workers?

And further more - such important project was given to foreign company - while almost every local construction company AND Estonian construction workers would have really needed this 1 billion+ EEK project for survival. Tbh,this is very disappointing :no:

Wow! :shocked: Riigihangete vaidlustuskomisjon (government procurement appeal committee) revoked Binders win of the procurement few days ago,after appeal by Merko & it's subsidiaries,Tallinna Teede AS and Rand & Tuulberg.

They are now investigating if Latvian offer met demands of the procurement qualification.

Bad news is that this seriously delays junction reconstruction (seriously,what's up with all those major project delays in this year? :nuts:)

Wow! :shocked: Riigihangete vaidlustuskomisjon (government procurement appeal committee) revoked Binders win of the procurement few days ago,after appeal by Merko & it's subsidiaries,Tallinna Teede AS and Rand & Tuulberg.


Smells like corruption.

Smells like corruption.
Well, for example road constructions on Tallinn-Saku road have currently been halted as the company building it went bankrupt and only because their offer was well below the construction cost. Now the uncovered road surface will face autumn rains and winter snows. I bet there will not be much left of it come spring.

Halting construction on such a large scale project as Ülemiste junction just because the company went bankrupt would be catastrophical. "Lower prices = procurement winners" strategy must be changed! Don't know if the threat of bankruptcy is the issue with this Latvian company though.

(seriously,what's up with all those major project delays in this year? :nuts:)
Democracy! I'm not against it but sometimes it's just seriously ineffective.

I found really interesting site about Estonian automotive history and parts of it covers Tallinn's PT between World Wars. It's not exactly relevant in current PT development,but I didn't want to create whole new thread because of this stuff.

Check it out here (scroll down on main page,AJALUGU links direct to awesome galleries): http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/index.html#alg

In 1930s Tallinn had two main companies serving urban bus lines - Tallinna Linnavalitsuse Bussiliinid,which was city owned and was created in 1937 to gather all city bus lines under one company (previously there were many private companies operating them) Tallinna Linnavalitsuse Bussiliinid buses had dark blue paint scheme.

More info and photos here: http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/ewtlv.html

Tallinna Linnavalitsuse Bussiliinid Büssing-NAG in front of Vaekoda (destroyed in WW2),Town Hall Square
http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/Tlv/tlv6b-n_1939vrv.jpg

Tallinna Linnavalitsuse Bussiliinid Büssing-NAG's in Downtown. The one in front has route to airport.
http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/Tlv/tlv7b-n_1939.jpg

Tallinna Linnavalitsuse Bussiliinid Volvo in Pirita.
http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/Tlv/tlv18volvo_1939vrv.jpg

Mootor OÜ was private company (started in 1926,after bank took over Fromhold Kangro's bus company) with it's own coach building garage etc. Starting in late 1930's,bus lines in Tallinn were transferred from Mootor to Tallinna Linnavalitsuse Bussiliinid (action was still in process,when WW2 started) All Mootor OÜ buses were red.

More info and lots of photos here: http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/ewmootor.html

To give idea about Mootor OÜ:
1940. a-l peeti Mootorit koguni "suurimaks selletaoliseks ettevõtteks Baltimaal, kaasa arvatud Soome"

Translation - in 1940s Mootor was considered to be the largest company of that kind in Baltics,including Finland

Mootor's Diamond in front of 'Estonia' opera house.
http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/Mootor/mootor89diamond_1939vrv.jpg

Scania-Vabis buses on Vene turg / Russian Market (thos spare tires on the back of that bus indicate that this was a regional bus,serving area out of city limits)
http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/Mootor/mootor60s-v_1939vrv-b.jpg

Mootor's Büssing-NAG (check out the streamlined design! :happy:)
http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/Mootor/mootor78b-n_1939.jpg

Mootor's Scania-Vabis buses next to Drama theatre.
http://eag.vanatehnika.ee/Mootor/mootor96ja93-95s-v_1938.jpg

In 1940's,during Soviet occupation,both companies (along with many other bus operators) were nationalized and after World War 2 from those companies,Tallinna Autobussikoondis (or TAK in short) was formed - the current city bus operator in Tallinn.

Source of all information posted here - Eesti Antiikautode Galerii,all rights reserved.


Sry for long post,but I thought this would be interesting stuff :)

Yeah,it's 'Taksopark' (I checked full size photo) Tbh,I didn't go to Koskla street nor did I checked bus lines running from this bus stop,so I don't know which lines stop there (my guess is it's probably relocated Koskla street bus stop)

Now it was officially announced that 'Taksopark' will replace 'Koskla' stop for bus lines 17,17A and 23 coming from Downtown. 'Koskla' stop will be closed.

Oh,and line 5 buses moving on Downtown > Pirita direction get additional stop on Pirita road - 'Lillepi'

Oh, and line 5 buses moving on Downtown > Pirita direction get additional stop on Pirita road - 'Lillepi'
Actually, the Lillepi stop is added to departures from Kose towards city center. While buses have always stopped in the Lillepi stop towards city center, they now also have the Lillepi stop towards Pirita. Kinda hard to explain, here's a map (http://www.yhistransport.eu/kaardid/liinimuudatused/lillepi_5_nov2010.png).

Wait...oh. I kinda thought that it would be on that corner.

Well,atleast it's a useful stop because that there is really annoying place for crossing the road (lots of traffic and pedestrian crossing without traffic lights) when heading to already existing 'Lillepi' stop.

^^ So that's the reason they made the concrete section in the bus stop a lot longer.

Wow! :shocked: Riigihangete vaidlustuskomisjon (government procurement appeal committee) revoked Binders win of the procurement few days ago,after appeal by Merko & it's subsidiaries,Tallinna Teede AS and Rand & Tuulberg.

They are now investigating if Latvian offer met demands of the procurement qualification.

Bad news is that this seriously delays junction reconstruction (seriously,what's up with all those major project delays in this year? :nuts:)

...And it didn't met procurement qualification because of only one thing (Binders managed to prove that they had all other qualifications for construction in Estonia,despite Merko Ehitus claims) - company didn't had needed permissions to install security equipment such as CCTV's,fire alarms etc.

Because of this Riigihangete Vaidlustuskomisjon decided that Merko & it's subsidiaries,Tallinna Teede AS and Rand & Tuulberg are winners of the procurement...BUT it doesn't mean that we see construction works soon,as Binders has now sued Riigihangete Vaidlustuskomisjon for their decision :no:

Atleast other contractors are doing their jobs - VR Rata is preparing to build temporary railways and some company is building sewers and water pipes. There have been some concerns by Eesti Raudtee,as they need Ülemiste junction tunnels built before the end of next year so they could build new railway tracks on Ülemiste line (EU has specified that this work needs to be done before end of next year or EU financing for it is lost)

Maanteeamet (out of all government organisations them.. :sly: how does it relate to Maanteeamet?) has now officially started ~300 million EEK procurement for new buses. Out of nearly 100 new buses 1/5 will be urban buses and rest will be regional buses. Priority usage locations will be Harjumaa and Ida-Virumaa (hmm,does Narva still have city controlled bus company? :dunno:)

Maanteeamet (out of all government organisations them.. :sly: how does it relate to Maanteeamet?) has now officially started ~300 million EEK procurement for new buses. Out of nearly 100 new buses 1/5 will be urban buses and rest will be regional buses. Priority usage locations will be Harjumaa and Ida-Virumaa (hmm,does Narva still have city controlled bus company? :dunno:)

Maanteeamet korraldab ju ühistransporti seega nemad tellivad ka uued bussid_Lähima viie aasta jooksul hakkab ühistransporti maakondades korraldama ainult Maanteeamet!!!!

Really? I haven't heard about that before...I've always considered them related only to highway developments :) Well,as long as regional bus lines get better organized,then it's all good. I hope that new government owned buses will prompt private companies to upgrade their ageing bus fleets too.

I don't get one thing though..if they managed to sell CO2 quotas,then why not invest all that money instantly,instead of spreading it over so long time? Are they receiving money for CO2 limits over that time period?

http://www.estravel.ee/news/eurolines_luxexpress.jpg

Lux Express Estonia AS plans to buy 5 new buses for 31 million EEK. 3 Scania Irizar PB's will be used on Riga-Tartu-St.Petersburg line under Lux Express brand and Scania Irizar Century and Scania OmniExpress will be used on under Simple Express budget brand probably on Tallinn-St.Petersburg line.

Source: http://www.logistikauudised.ee/article/2010/11/4/lux-express-investeerib-31-miljonit-krooni

I really love those Scania irizar's. I've travelled on it around 10 times this and last year and it is extremely comfortable for a bus. Usually I hate buses, but these ones are really nice with lots of legroom, power outlets and wifi.

^^ There's really not much of a differnce between Tallinn-Tartu express bus and Eurolines Lux Express. But then again, I'm a short bloke so I never have problems with legroom.

I'll definitely try out Hansabuss Business Line when I happen to go to Riga next time. Those wider leather seats in 2+1 configuration are really appealing.

^^ There's really not much of a differnce between Tallinn-Tartu express bus and Eurolines Lux Express. But then again, I'm a short bloke so I never have problems with legroom.

I'll definitely try out Hansabuss Business Line when I happen to go to Riga next time. Those wider leather seats in 2+1 configuration are really appealing.

True, but the price isn't :p. Unless you got a cheap ticket from Stockmann's Crazy Days a few weeks ago ;).

http://www.estravel.ee/news/eurolines_luxexpress.jpg

Lux Express Estonia AS plans to buy 5 new buses for 31 million EEK. 3 Scania Irizar PB's will be used on Riga-Tartu-St.Petersburg line under Lux Express brand and Scania Irizar Century and Scania OmniExpress will be used on under Simple Express budget brand probably on Tallinn-St.Petersburg line.

Source: http://www.logistikauudised.ee/article/2010/11/4/lux-express-investeerib-31-miljonit-krooni

I love LUX Express :) But I afraid they are too fast sometimes on winterly slippery roads.

I love LUX Express :) But I afraid they are too fast sometimes on winterly slippery roads.

Haha, kind of true, even though with 3 axils and winter tires not much can go wrong ;).

I've had scarier experiences in a minibus (not limited to 100kph) between Viljandi and Pärnu at 6am in the morning with fresh snow and icy parts on the road. The driver managed to arrive in Pärnu half an hour before shedule (on a 1h30min, 95km sheduled trip)

Government approved transportation infrastructure development plan for next year and in addition to planned next year's infrastructure projects,some projects got additional resources.


Ülemiste junction got 178 million EEK in addition to previous funding. Now total cost of Ülemiste junction is 1,18 billion EEK

Tartu western bypass got funding & construction should start in upcoming years.
Railway platforms reconstruction project got additional 45,8 million EEK. This allows to build platforms longer than before (this probably only applies to larger stations & Tallinn metro area)
25 million EEK was located for Kuivastu & Virtsu harbour piers construction.

Tartu will soon get decent city buses :banana: and here's a small preview of new Sebe owned buses:

In numbers:
28 Scania Omnicity
10 MAZ-107 (I'm not sure about this one,but this model is only one which fits description given in the news)
13 MAZ-206
5 LNG-buses by Scania (scheduled to arrive in March 2011)

New Scania Omnicity (with new Tartu bus colours :P mmmm,cherry red...) at Polish factory.
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/11/25/473144t41he10c.jpg

Check out the dashboard - it doesn't have lcd display's which are fitted to TAK's Scanias.
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/11/25/473145t41hf587.jpg

Interior of Omnicity (rotten cherry red seats? I hope it looks better in real life)
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/11/25/473142t41hb3f1.jpg

MAZ-206 in Tartu. You can see part of larger MAZ bus behind it on the right.
http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/11/25/473140t41hfa09.jpg

Source: Tartu Postimees

Scania buses are still in Poland,although most of them are finished. First MAZ buses have started arriving to Tartu.
All buses will have decals,Estonian-language labels & those white circles (check the first page of this thread for design) glued in Tartu. In 1st January,when Sebe contract starts, it's possible to try out those new buses.

well scania is probably only normal idea for Estonia...damn cuts are main issue to buy MAZs. DO they even fit to EU standards? and parts...somebody goes to russia to buy for small-and long term service supply's? And who? - it probably goes more expensive in long term.

I have heard, that main reason in finland bend all the police vans (they all are VW transporters )nice)) - the VW makes so huge cuts in price tage for fame - to get all police cars... Why scania dont do such deals in Estonia :P
cheers,

MAZ buses should fit to EU standards,as their engines are made in EU (by Deutz) and they wouldn't be able to sell their buses here if safety standards wouldn't comply with EU law. Build quality is a whole different story :D Let's hope that those buses are able to run atleast few years....

Btw,judging by those photos on MAZ website,MAZ-107 has really outdated exterior design (smth what you would expect to see 10 years ago)

It would be interesting to know the single Scania Omnilink bus price for Tartu & Tallinn for comparison. I wouldn't be surprised if TAK manages to get their Scania's lot cheaper than Sebe,despite having better equipped buses.

It would be interesting to know the single Scania Omnilink bus price for Tartu & Tallinn for comparison. I wouldn't be surprised if TAK manages to get their Scania's lot cheaper than Sebe,despite having better equipped buses.
TAK has Scania Omnilink buses, Sebe will get Scania Omnicity buses so the prices can't really be compared. Omnicity is 100% low-floor which also requires a different engine placement.

Sry,my bad. I guess I'm too used to Tallinn's Scania Omnilink's. :hahano: Still,it would be interesting to know single bus price...even between Omnilink & Omnicity buses it should be quite interesting and yet comparable difference.

In comunist Estonia, buses are red! ....

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/11/25/473140t41hfa09.jpg

SRSLY! CHANGE THE COLOR :bash:

^^ It will get additional white graphics on it so you don't have to fear a communist revolution, my friend.

Plus, Stockholm's and London's buses are red too.

^^ It will get additional white graphics on it so you don't have to fear a communist revolution, my friend.

I am chilled now :) :cheers:

http://www.hot.ee/emolmesser6/uudiselisad/skype_tramm.jpg
Oldie: Tallinn free ride tram - Skype promotion.
Maybe we should post some good tram-designs here, to cheer up the Thread sometimes...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4651019476_bbcffcd971_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3534907961_cc59c2d437_z.jpg
The Estonia National Opera promotion tram - the story was, or first idea to buy opera tickets inside of tram...didnt happen yet.

Wasn't there some rolling cafe tram also? I wonder what happened to it.

havent reserved myself but Pauline is something like Koff tramm in Helsinki (Koff tramm was made by Tallinn Trammidepoo)

http://www.eestihetked.ee/pildid/02008/2f5a0462ce75075-1.jpg
http://static1.fotoalbum.ee/fotoalbum/206/453/0517269391c150.jpg

P.S. here is Koff tramm in Helsinki:
http://www.sinebrychoff.fi/tiedostot/sparakoff2009.gif

I was in Ülemiste area today and noticed that Ülemiste road junction related works are going on even now. If I remember correctly,then these guys are either building communication lines or sewers for junction. The other company building temporary railways seems to have stopped it's works (maybe because of knee deep snow :D)

This is from Järvevana road.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2r3e00n.jpg

P.S. here is Koff tramm in Helsinki:
http://www.sinebrychoff.fi/tiedostot/sparakoff2009.gif

Lol,I remember that one :D Probably the most cheerful ride in Helsinki.

I was thinking of a new transport concept for Tallinn and this is what i came up with:
http://i55.tinypic.com/ogzv7.jpg

Little explanation:
The main idea is to establish a New Central (International) Station at Ülemiste, together with Bus Station. It will be connected to the
Airport and also Ülemiste Shopping Centre. Commuter trains will still terminate at Balti Jaam, stopping also at the new station of
Kristiine.

Light rail lines:
Red line- connecting the airport, central station, Kaubamaja, Viru and ferry terminals. (sort of the existing route of nr 2 bus)

Blue line- connecting Lasnamäe, Kaubamaja, Vabaduse väljak, Kristiine and Mustamäe. It will run together will red line under Gonsiori
street until Kaubamaja and from thereafter together with Yellow line until Kristiine keskus. The strecht under Gonsiori st and Estonia pst
will be underground (should be easily done by cut and cover)

Yellow line- connecting Õismäe, Rocca al Mare centre, Kristiine, Vabaduse väljak, Viru, Linnahall, Balti jaam, Pelgulinn.


The new lines are planned so the the existing tram services would not be affected (except Kopli line), which of course leaves the option
of rebuilding them in the future and intergating them to the new network in necessary.

Green dots show major hubs for services. Rocca al Mare, Ülemiste and Priisle would be locations for feeder bus terminals as well as
Park&Ride facilities.

Any comments and suggestion are of course very welcome, let me know what do you think. :banana:

-a New Central (International) Station at Ülemiste, together with Bus Station.

hihi, I had same Idea 15 years ago. I was drawing a project, I called "Tallinn Gate"

Idea was to bring east-railway station to front of old Tallinn Airport building and to build In front of 70ies Airport building a two-three level busstation.

The second Gate would be A-terminal Port of Tallinn, with west-railway hub (demolution of old railway station and further constructed 1 km. The new Port and east-railway station whould also been a new operahouse :lol:.

Two "Gates" had tram connection.

Now 15 years later....thanks for reminding me that...I must say...Give me a month, and I come up with better plan :laugh:

hihi, I had same Idea 15 years ago.

Yeah, and Eliel Saarinen had that idea 95 years ago...

Nice project by the way, but don't forget roads! As much as you can loathe them, some are still needed. Lõunaväil and Põhjaväil in tunnels, with connections to all major roads, and a congestion charge area, perhaps?

Oh, and I don't think tram loops that large are going to work that well, if there is one-way traffic through them. They should be smaller. But otherwise, great!

Any comments and suggestion are of course very welcome, let me know what do you think. :banana:

I'm not sure if it's useful to create tram / light rail lines to Western Tallinn,as it is well connected with trolleybus lines (it might be more useful & cost efficient to extend trolleybus network in Western Tallinn)

However,the red line is great idea. I don't agree it's route on this map,but it's the idea that matters ;) For Passenger Harbour-Airport tram line,quite small amount of work is needed (probably only 1-2km of new tracks,few tram stations),much of the existing lines can be used and more importantly - line draws passengers from both line ends :okay: Ülemiste area will be most expensive,as it needs new tunnel for trams,but otherwise it would be very useful addition to Tallinn's tram network ...+it would get rid of that pesky bus line.

On what are this drawing based on ? Is it just "idea" what would be great or practical ?

An official map of Lasnamäe tram line route: http://www.tallinnlv.ee/lvistung/bin/docview1.asp?docid=91043 (Why the F is it a word document ?)

I personally like this fork-style route because it allows the extension to Muuga Aedlinn and Maardu.

The main idea is to establish a New Central (International) Station at Ülemiste, together with Bus Station. It will be connected to the
Airport and also Ülemiste Shopping Centre. Commuter trains will still terminate at Balti Jaam, stopping also at the new station of
Kristiine.

Thanks for your thoughts and I like your plan.

The Ülemiste transportation hub is gerat. I would add Kristiine transport hub also, that takes some congestion off from Ülemiste hub. I think that it's essential for all trains to continue to Balti Jaam and make stop at Kristiine hub(something similar to Pasila in Helsinki). Ülemiste - Kristiine would be 5min by Tartu - Tallinn intercity train and at Kristiine hub(trains stopping on Endla bridge and tram/trolley/bus stopping under Endla bridge) I culd interchange to other mode to be in Mustamäe or Haabersti in about 10minutes. Kristiine hub would allow people easily change trains. I mean if I come form Keila and go to Tartu then I just chenge train at Kristiine hub. The same for all trains. From Saku to Valga or Raasiku to Pärnu.

At moment I am sceptical about the tram line to Airport. I think that from Ülemiste hub to Meri airport people mover would be best choise.

I don't know how cost effective would be bringing tram to western Tallinn. At moment tram in Tallinn is slow. The reason is very simple. Pedestrians have right over tram and if some pedestrian steps on street, tram must stop. If tram goes 50km/h then it must brake hardly and wheels will block. Wheel block means a dimple and I think some of you have noticed that after hard braking in Tallinn, tram continues with sound pom-pom-pom-pom-pom..... Parg has extensive tram network and there the porblem is solved so that tram has right over everithing. So there is possibilities that make tram fast but I doubt that tram in Tallinn will be fast.

For western Tallinn I think I would create some more extra trolley lanes and allow 70km/h for trolleys all over the network.

Idea for forumers to complain :P

What, if few meters (ca 4-5) would be new bike line parallel to railway from Balti Jaam to Ülemiste and from Kristiine second bikeline to Laagri. The crossings stay :( (it means, that Tondi, Nõmme, Hiiu and before and after Laagri stop will have to come of from bike and get the closest way over street. Some bridges must be builded for bikeline - because railway zone isnt that wide in some cases. Easier is with Ülemiste-Balti jaam bikeline - no crossings - only some new bridges. Some fence is required.
The outcome would be "Tallinn green bike belt or park" - surroundings of railway is usually green and more quiet. Trains are usual like a lunar eclipse. So it would be kick ass project.

talk!

Your idea is already in use ;) (that's why it's a good idea to own MTB)

Yeah,it would be a great idea,but there are many railway crossings in the city and this means that you will have to make long circles to cross the streets before continuing along the railway. Needless to say,those bike paths should be made from gravel to keep off those rollerskaters.

OT - Seriously,someone actually bothers coming off the bike when crossing the road? :D Several times I have crossed the road ON bike,in front of police patrol. And always these guys were like: 'Meh,we don't care what you do,as long as you observe the traffic and don't run over grannies with tiny dogs'

those bike paths should be made from gravel to keep off those rollerskaters
:D hihi.
Police made to one animation maker in Niine street "ticket" for driving in 1 m wide road (Niine street is one way only) and dude wanted to get home with bike. bad day....

Next one: If you have back at luggage carrier a girl - you get 11 euro "ticket".

Everything else is OK. And I usually have tiny dog in basket :lol::lol: but Im not a grannie yet.

well, this bikline would have possibility to drive in to city with 15 min compare to bus - 50 min - if U lucky.

well, this bikline would have possibility to drive in to city with 15 min compare to bus - 50 min - if U lucky.
From Laagri to Balti Jaam in 15 minutes by bike? That's an average of 50km/h...:D. The bus takes around 40 min. With a more realistic "going to work" speed of 18km/h Laagri - Balti Jaam would take 42 minutes... I think the limit for cycling to work for an average person is around 5km.

Next one: If you have back at luggage carrier a girl - you get 11 euro "ticket".

Does it depend on how good looking the girl is? (i.e. - can I get off with cheaper ticket if she's hot and wears smth really sexy? :D)

well, this bikline would have possibility to drive in to city with 15 min compare to bus - 50 min - if U lucky.

Yeah,decent bike paths along the railway would be useful. It looks like more and more people are using bikes for getting around. Probably it has smth to do with major cuts in PT schedule and the thing you mentioned - you can get almost everywhere a lot faster than with PT or cars (especially during rush hours)

Estlander-a New Central (International) Station at Ülemiste, together with Bus Station.

hihi, I had same Idea 15 years ago. I was drawing a project, I called "Tallinn Gate"

I know that is not a new idea, but i wanted to bring it up again, because i feel that it is about time to start establishing a decent public transport system in Estonia. Without doubt such a hub, combining bus, rail and air transport would be the backbone for the whole country's system.

I'm not sure if it's useful to create tram / light rail lines to Western Tallinn,as it is well connected with trolleybus lines (it might be more useful & cost efficient to extend trolleybus network in Western Tallinn)

However,the red line is great idea. I don't agree it's route on this map,but it's the idea that matters ;) For Passenger Harbour-Airport tram line,quite small amount of work is needed (probably only 1-2km of new tracks,few tram stations),much of the existing lines can be used and more importantly - line draws passengers from both line ends :okay: Ülemiste area will be most expensive,as it needs new tunnel for trams,but otherwise it would be very useful addition to Tallinn's tram network ...+it would get rid of that pesky bus line.

Well, I agree, the trolly bus works good on western Tallinn at this moment. I made these lines with a rather long perspective... Of course, Lasnamäe line + airport-port line are the most needed ones.

The problem with the exiting tram lines is, that they would need rebuilding to a wider gauge. Currently it is 1067mm, which seriously comprises the speed and reliability of the service. As the aim is to have the speed up to 70km/h, standard gauge has to be used for the new lines. Secondly, as in the official plans Lasnamäe line runs along Gonsiori st, then it would be reasoble to use the same strecth to ülemiste. That will also mean minimal distruption to the existing lines, which can stay in service as long as they are viable or will be converted and joined to the new network.


Thanks for your thoughts and I like your plan.

The Ülemiste transportation hub is gerat. I would add Kristiine transport hub also, that takes some congestion off from Ülemiste hub. I think that it's essential for all trains to continue to Balti Jaam and make stop at Kristiine hub(something similar to Pasila in Helsinki). Ülemiste - Kristiine would be 5min by Tartu - Tallinn intercity train and at Kristiine hub(trains stopping on Endla bridge and tram/trolley/bus stopping under Endla bridge) I culd interchange to other mode to be in Mustamäe or Haabersti in about 10minutes. Kristiine hub would allow people easily change trains. I mean if I come form Keila and go to Tartu then I just chenge train at Kristiine hub. The same for all trains. From Saku to Valga or Raasiku to Pärnu.

At moment I am sceptical about the tram line to Airport. I think that from Ülemiste hub to Meri airport people mover would be best choise.

I don't know how cost effective would be bringing tram to western Tallinn. At moment tram in Tallinn is slow. The reason is very simple. Pedestrians have right over tram and if some pedestrian steps on street, tram must stop. If tram goes 50km/h then it must brake hardly and wheels will block. Wheel block means a dimple and I think some of you have noticed that after hard braking in Tallinn, tram continues with sound pom-pom-pom-pom-pom..... Parg has extensive tram network and there the porblem is solved so that tram has right over everithing. So there is possibilities that make tram fast but I doubt that tram in Tallinn will be fast.

For western Tallinn I think I would create some more extra trolley lanes and allow 70km/h for trolleys all over the network.

I completely agree with you about the Kristiine hub, it offeres great possibities for the people in western Tallinn.

As I said before, the western lines are really a long shot. But you shouldnt take the existing tram as an example. In my oppinion it cant stand any criticism whatsoever, due to the appalling conditions of the infrastucture and rolling stock. Let's be honest, nothing has been improved during the last 40 years or so.:ohno:

Well, I agree, the trolly bus works good on western Tallinn at this moment. I made these lines with a rather long perspective... Of course, Lasnamäe line + airport-port line are the most needed ones.

The problem with the exiting tram lines is, that they would need rebuilding to a wider gauge. Currently it is 1067mm, which seriously comprises the speed and reliability of the service. As the aim is to have the speed up to 70km/h, standard gauge has to be used for the new lines. Secondly, as in the official plans Lasnamäe line runs along Gonsiori st, then it would be reasoble to use the same strecth to ülemiste. That will also mean minimal distruption to the existing lines, which can stay in service as long as they are viable or will be converted and joined to the new network.

Even with new tracks & trams,higher speed can only be used in suburbs (and even there only when tracks are separated from rest of the traffic) In Downtown it's dangerous for trams to go faster than 50km/h because of car traffic and pedestrians. Only improvement in Downtown would be smoother ride with trams.

Probably first thing that needs to be done before even planning new tracks & upgrades, is actually rebuilding and fixing current tram tracks. Right now all lines have really appalling track conditions. I can't even remember when was the last time when tram lines had maintenance :ohno:

News in today's Äripäev Online reminded me interesting fact :D How many of you know that Tallinn actually has metro tunnels? (although without tracks)

Photo from one of those tunnels (source - Äripäev):
http://live.logistikauudised.ee/images/publicationimages/0d228b88-9248-47b7-a6d2-aaf35138fd54.jpg

Located in Miiduranna harbour,Milstrand oil terminal owns three separate ~700m long tunnels (so Tallinn metro is somewhere around 2km long :D),made from same metro sections used in St.Petersburg metro construction during Soviet era. Soviets built those tunnels for underground fuel storage (it's said that this terminal could withstand a direct hit by nuclear bomb)

I think it shows clearly,that if needed (and with enough resources),metro construction is possible in Tallinn.

The problem with the exiting tram lines is, that they would need rebuilding to a wider gauge. Currently it is 1067mm, which seriously comprises the speed and reliability of the service. As the aim is to have the speed up to 70km/h, standard gauge has to be used for the new lines.


The track gauge is NOT a problem. Yes, it does limit maximum speed which is why Japan invented Shinkansen. But Japan runs 1067 mm gauge trains at 130 km/h, and Queensland has 170 km/h speeds on 1067 mm.

The Peter the Great Fortress railway network, on 750 mm gauge, was built in 5 years, 1912 to 1917. Should Estonia build a suburban high speed tramway network on 1067 mm?

I can't even remember when was the last time when tram lines had maintenance :ohno:

How about last year - Kadriorg (0.5 mio euros) and this year starting from Mere bul to Põhja bul is one example.

Tin said it - fast tram vs different cauge does not give anything. Just more trouble. Late hour - some trams are going only 3-4 times in hour. So it does not make difference - is tram driving faster or not, because it does not have point. You can go faster by foot home as with tram anyway.

Trams are faster - if they are not using same road as cars or they have less junctions (you can go of in Mere bul and run to catch in Paberi stop same tram.

Really? I kinda missed those track repairs. I hope they plan to repair tracks on Pärnu Highway. Things are literally falling apart there.

Late hour - some trams are going only 3-4 times in hour.

I hate that. Usually you get to tram stop when tram departs and look at the timetable to see that next one comes 20 minutes later :no:

How about last year - Kadriorg (0.5 mio euros) and this year starting from Mere bul to Põhja bul is one example.

If they had waited one more year with the Kopli line, trams would have started derailing on a weekly basis. I just hate the way they are doing it, a small section per night.

The end result is not that good, as even the new tracks still run on the muddy ground, or whatever. It will be just as horrible as before in 5 years.

In Stockholm, when a metro branch is renovated, the whole section is shut off for half a year. While buses take over operations, work is done on an intense schedule, and when it's done, there is little need for major maintenance for a long time. Calculations also show that the end result is cheap compared to what it would be, were the work to be done only during nights.

Just imagine the same being done to the Kopli line! New platforms, state of the art tracks, an information system, coordination with the reconstruction of Balti jaam...

I don't think something like that could ever happen in Estonia as long as public transport is run by municipalities, where the focus is on economy. The field requires a separate organization specialised on providing quality.

This fits nicely into tramlines discussion - new Tallinn's Transportation Development Schedule.

This should be interesting. I wish time travel and/or human life extension would be available today :D:
Trammiliinide soovitatavad kasutuselevõtu ajad:
Trammiliin Võimalik kasutuselevõtu aeg

Trammiliin nr 1: Kopli – Balti jaam – Kesklinn – Balti jaam – Kopli 2015
Trammiliin nr 2: Ülemiste – Kesklinn – Ülemiste 2015
Trammiliin nr 3: Kadriorg – Kesklinn – Balti jaam – Kesklinn – Kadriorg 2015
Trammiliin nr 4: Tondi – Kesklinn – Tondi 2015
Trammiliin nr 5: Lasnamäe – Kesklinn – Lasnamäe I etapp 2015
Mustamäe – Kesklinn – Mustamäe 2020
Balti jaam – Tallinna Sadam – Kesklinn – Tallinna Sadam – Balti jaam 2020
Tallinna Lennujaam – Kesklinn – Tallinna Sadam – Balti jaam – Tallinna Sadam – Kesklinn – Tallinna Lennujaam 2025
Paljassaare – Kesklinn – Paljassaare 2025
Laagri – Pääsküla – Järve – Tondi – Kesklinn – Tondi – Järve – Pääsküla – Laagri 2030
Ümera – Ülemiste – Kesklinn – Ülemiste – Ümera 2030
Ümera – Rahu tee – Narva mnt – Kadriorg – Kesklinn – Balti jaam – Kesklinn – Kadriorg – Narva mnt – Rahu tee – Ümera 2030
Tabasalu – Kesklinn – Tabasalu 2050
Viimsi – Kesklinn – Viimsi 2050
Maardu – Kesklinn – Maardu 2050
Jüri – Kesklinn – Jüri 2050


Read the full article here (in Estonian): http://www.logistikauudised.ee/default.aspx?publicationid=4EDEF3B8-02DA-4842-B4ED-82CF231DFDDA

Translated article (in Googlish): http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=et&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=et&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.logistikauudised.ee%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fpublicationid%3D4EDEF3B8-02DA-4842-B4ED-82CF231DFDDA&act=url

The track gauge is NOT a problem.
I've said this before in this thread or somewhere else: track gauge does make a difference. It's obvius that the new trams would be low-floor. But if you have low-floor trams, the narrowest space in the interior is defined by track gauge. With the current gauge of 1067mm, the narrowest space in the interior would only be 1m or less which makes moving around very difficult, especially considering that the first new tram line would probably go to the heavily populated Lasnamäe. My idea is: reconstruct all the existing tram lines and build a new one to Lasnamäe at the same time. If you take into consideration that the current tracks are anyway in desperate need of repairs, it doesn't seem an unrealistic solution. Besides, having standard gauge tracks would enable us to get cheaper trams since 1435mm versions are available off-the-shelf.

Just imagine the same being done to the Kopli line! New platforms, state of the art tracks, an information system, coordination with the reconstruction of Balti jaam...

I don't think something like that could ever happen in Estonia as long as public transport is run by municipalities, where the focus is on economy. The field requires a separate organization specialised on providing quality.

In most of the European cities with a GOOD public transport, the system is run by municipalities. Although the actual service providers can be private companies, the system would never develop and function efficiently if not overseen by the public authority. This means of course that extreme changes are needed in Tallinn city government, and to get people working there, who actually know something about the topic.

I personally have been ''lucky'' to live a year in Bristol. To give you a perspective how bad it was, I say that compared to Bristol's transport, the system in Tallinn feels like heaven on earth. The city is about the same size as Tallinn, just over 400,000 and the public transport consists of 4-5 private bus companies, that each and every one have there own network and ticket system. The prices are way higher then the ones in London, while schedules are virtually never followed, partly due to the congestion, party due to the drivers' ignorance. The municipality has no control over the transport.

Well tram is in Tallinn PT 122 years now, and we dont choose tram because of speed. We just need, that its cheap, always clean, offcourse on right time and buggies had low floor. Last point is what is in schedule last 5 years. The problem comes late hour traffic and trams that dont have low floors (but in timetables are always markings for low floor trams - so mothers with baby carriages have possibility to cope with.

Things we actually need:
1. More low floor middle buggies (KT-6) (also they taking 52% less electricity thancks to coopeartion with Tallinn Technical Univ.)
2. renovation of railway (go knocking smoothly Tallinn City Gov chaps)
3. Better places for some tramstops (moving them ca 50 m in some cases)
4. New timetable, that does not allow f.e: trams in Kopli direction 1 and 2 are usually together in 100 m distance and then is 25 min void. Same with Kadriorg 1 and 3 and Ülemiste 2 and 4 and Pärnu bul maybe also. :ohno::ohno::ohno: - if there only could be idea of distcipline - we need it!

Don't forget that line no.3 must have full schedule again,instead of this 'few times on workdays' thing going on right now.

4. New timetable, that does not allow f.e: trams in Kopli direction 1 and 2 are usually together in 100 m distance and then is 25 min void. Same with Kadriorg 1 and 3 and Ülemiste 2 and 4 and Pärnu bul maybe also. :ohno::ohno::ohno: - if there only could be idea of distcipline - we need it!

Bus shedules have that disease as well.

My home stop is Vineeri where buses 5, 18, 32 and 36 stop and a lot of times 3 buses come to the stop at exactly the same time...

For example, on working days between 19:20 and 19:25:

19:22 - 18
19:22 - T4
19:25 - 5
19:25 - 32
19:25 - 36

And then the next bus is at 19:33. I don't really want to complain about it that much because less than 10 minutes waiting is still OK, but it could still be better with buses 2/3 minutes away from eachother.

The frequency of the bus 1A after 7pm is simply stupid: if you miss one bus you have to wait 25min for another and when the articulated bus finally comes, it's full.....25 minutes means that when one bus reaches the border of Viimsi, the next bus hasn't even departured from the bus terminal yet.

In most of the European cities with a GOOD public transport, the system is run by municipalities. Although the actual service providers can be private companies, the system would never develop and function efficiently if not overseen by the public authority. This means of course that extreme changes are needed in Tallinn city government, and to get people working there, who actually know something about the topic.

I personally have been ''lucky'' to live a year in Bristol. To give you a perspective how bad it was, I say that compared to Bristol's transport, the system in Tallinn feels like heaven on earth. The city is about the same size as Tallinn, just over 400,000 and the public transport consists of 4-5 private bus companies, that each and every one have there own network and ticket system. The prices are way higher then the ones in London, while schedules are virtually never followed, partly due to the congestion, party due to the drivers' ignorance. The municipality has no control over the transport.

I didn't want to sound that radical. What I meant was that the city alone shouldn't be in charge of PT as it is very much a regional question. Tallinn lacks a unified ticketing system and central planning for easier interchanges between commuter trains and regional and local buses.

I am convinced that the best way to achieve this is to bring it all together into one agency. My role model is Stockholm, where all that exists, and it actually works pretty well(I have lived there for some years). Regionally elected politicians take the important decisions, private companies run the trains and buses and it the whole matter doesn't "get lost" behind social care, road maintenance etc before elections. A separate organization exists, as opposed to Tallinn, where PT is just one of the departments of the city.

And sorry, I haven't been to Copenhagen although transportation seems to function well there, too.

Proposed Saaremaa bridge project,has spawned ridiculous discussion - apparently one Estonian scientist thinks that bridge will 'threaten ringed seals' (Pusa hispida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringed_Seal)),who after seeing that bridge,might 'get scared and go somewhere else' Scientist concludes that 'risks are enormous' :rofl:

Those of you who have paid any attention to bridge project,might remember that few years ago another scientist claimed that rare birds will collide with bridge towers and die in masses.

Does anyone else think that nature scientists are bit...retarded?

Anyway,cause of this was environmental study of Saaremaa bridge by WSP Finland OY. They failed to conclude what impact bridge would have on local animal population,or to be more precise - previously scientists said that there wasn't any impact on seals,but now theses scientists have left WSP,who in turn hired new scientists and they decided that bridge would harm seals. :nuts:

Not only that,but entire WSP made study was so flawed that Saaremaa bridge commission decided not to sent it to Keskonnaamet for approval. So basically,project is halted,there's no environmental study for the bridge,Finnish company has ripped off our government with nearly 840'000 Euros and some scientist nutcases are crying over poor seals,because bridge would massacre all seals. :bash: Why the hell doesn't it even surprise me any more?

I've said this before in this thread or somewhere else: track gauge does make a difference. It's obvius that the new trams would be low-floor. But if you have low-floor trams, the narrowest space in the interior is defined by track gauge. With the current gauge of 1067mm, the narrowest space in the interior would only be 1m or less which makes moving around very difficult, especially considering that the first new tram line would probably go to the heavily populated Lasnamäe.

As I have said before, Helsinki is working with 1000 mm track gauge and low floors. 1067 mm would be slightly wider.

What are the most loaded Helsinki tram lines?

Proposed Saaremaa bridge project,has spawned ridiculous discussion - apparently one Estonian scientist thinks that bridge will 'threaten ringed seals' (Pusa hispida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringed_Seal)),who after seeing that bridge,might 'get scared and go somewhere else' Scientist concludes that 'risks are enormous' :rofl:

Those of you who have paid any attention to bridge project,might remember that few years ago another scientist claimed that rare birds will collide with bridge towers and die in masses.

Does anyone else think that nature scientists are bit...retarded?

Anyway,cause of this was environmental study of Saaremaa bridge by WSP Finland OY. They failed to conclude what impact bridge would have on local animal population,or to be more precise - previously scientists said that there wasn't any impact on seals,but now theses scientists have left WSP,who in turn hired new scientists and they decided that bridge would harm seals. :nuts:

Not only that,but entire WSP made study was so flawed that Saaremaa bridge commission decided not to sent it to Keskonnaamet for approval. So basically,project is halted,there's no environmental study for the bridge,Finnish company has ripped off our government with nearly 840'000 Euros and some scientist nutcases are crying over poor seals,because bridge would massacre all seals. :bash: Why the hell doesn't it even surprise me any more?

Those 'mad' scientists will always be there. Until a comprhensive environmental study has been carried out by an independant party, no decisions should be made. I am actually really surprise it hasnt been made yet.

Nevertheless, the connection can also be in a tunnel, which is not enourmously more expensive, but as far as i can see it, has no major environmental consequences to birds or seals etc. So the question is really about if the people want a fixed link and if it is economically feasible.

News in today's Äripäev Online reminded me interesting fact :D How many of you know that Tallinn actually has metro tunnels? (although without tracks)

Photo from one of those tunnels (source - Äripäev):
http://live.logistikauudised.ee/images/publicationimages/0d228b88-9248-47b7-a6d2-aaf35138fd54.jpg

Located in Miiduranna harbour,Milstrand oil terminal owns three separate ~700m long tunnels (so Tallinn metro is somewhere around 2km long :D),made from same metro sections used in St.Petersburg metro construction during Soviet era. Soviets built those tunnels for underground fuel storage (it's said that this terminal could withstand a direct hit by nuclear bomb)

I think it shows clearly,that if needed (and with enough resources),metro construction is possible in Tallinn.

Maybe it would be useful to set those tunnels aside for a possible premetro lrt project or a cross-Tallinn rail tunnel.

we dont choose tram because of speed

Please don't scrap this thread with lies!!! We have lot's of people who don't choose tram because of it's slow.

2. renovation of railway
If we don't need speed then we don't need superb track either.

1. More low floor middle buggies (KT-6) (also they taking 52% less electricity thancks to coopeartion with Tallinn Technical Univ.)

Partly agree. Trams are overcrowded at peaks. Actually new long trams are needed. Or couple two trams together. Those low floor middle buggies (KT-6) are very problematic: cause derailment's, make whole tram shake etc...

4. New timetable, that does not allow f.e: trams in Kopli direction 1 and 2 are usually together in 100 m distance and then is 25 min void. Same with Kadriorg 1 and 3 and Ülemiste 2 and 4 and Pärnu bul maybe also. - if there only could be idea of distcipline - we need it!

This seems to be a must when talking about Tallinns PT. Same for trolleys 6,7 and 1,5 buses 5,18,36 and more. It simply su**s.

Please don't scrap this thread with lies!!! We have lot's of people who don't choose tram because of it's slow.

but thats the same point, nevertheless.

Those low floor middle buggies (KT-6) are very problematic: cause derailment's, make whole tram shake etc...

This has to be related to tracks. In Downtown,places where they have built new tracks,KT6 offers decent ride.

Btw,I was surprised when I found out that KT6's central section interior was built here by TTTK workshop. I'd like to complain about it a bit - seat size in middle sections is odd. I think they are meant for 1,5 people :lol: Atleast two skinny persons can squeeze themselves on one seat,but if one of them is..khm..fat,then only one person can sit on a seat (et mitte segadusse ajada - ma räägin laiematest istmetest KT6 keskosas) This is annoying during rush hours,when thanks to those seats there isn't enough room for standing and seats are too small to sit on them also. I believe TTTK could have designed the interior better.

Still,I think it's good idea to upgrade all (or atleast most) KT4's to KT6. That should give us some breathing time before we manage to buy new trams.

And for foreigners - this is how TTTK's Tatra KT6 looks like (photo by Lauri Rädyn,all rights reserved,source (http://lauri.1g.fi/joukkol/kuvat/070518/index.html))
http://lauri.1g.fi/joukkol/kuvat/070518/tttk96_01.jpg

So the question is really about if the people want a fixed link and if it is econically feasable.

There are people opposing the link between Saaremaa & mainland,but I think eventually something will be built - either bridge or tunnel. It's not like current situation is any better - government pays ferry subsidies each year. It's obvious that maintenance of fixed connection would be lot cheaper than current situation. Not only that but each summer ferries get really crowded and people have trouble crossing the sea. Bridge / tunnel would get rid of that problem - people would be able to get to Saaremaa & back whenever they want. And even with fixed connection fees (it will be a toll road) people will still choose it for better comfort.

Check it out - new bus tickets for Tartu,designed by Tiit Kaunissaare:

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/12/01/476522t41h0a7f.jpg

Really nice design,now add equally nice graphical design for buses = pure awesomeness! (being from Tallinn,I'm so damn jealous over that :D) Font used on tickets sucks though...as does the 'accurate ticket price'. I mean,c'mon - 83 Euro cents? :bash:

I'm not sure,but I think I've heard rumours that Sebe plans to have public presentation of new Tartu city buses before Christmas. Sadly I don't know where & when they are going to show them to public.

my repost. sry

OH NO...I really hate that "latvian" design - I mean the "spiral".
I really dont know why small place like Tartu even have to have two different tickets...please make only "tunnipilet" with price of normal - and it is good job for PR. Like a price cut - and all can be happy. It would be easier and simple.
True, fonts and colors dont give any other signal (only signal it gives for me - Tartu Tisainerid....)

Sad, I like that they want a good thing, but in the end its totally pointless piece of BravoSierra.
Im not satisfied with that.

What's that spiral thingy got to do with Latvia? Different design is nice and this is miles ahead of other cities PT ticket designs.

Tbh,the more I'm looking at those tickets,the more I'm starting to hate the font used on tickets. Why the hell couldn't they use smth more sexy? Like Eurostile font,for example:
http://www.pickafont.com/images/fonts/large/e/EurostileExtended_Roman_DTC.ttf.png

Now imagine that on those tickets! :drool:

hihi,

and now something from yesterday not from year 1962:

http://hvdfonts.com/assets/Image/57/spec_sheet-chino.png
http://hvdfonts.com/assets/Image/59/spec_sheet-chinodisplay.png

Check it out - new bus tickets for Tartu,designed by Tiit Kaunissaare:

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/12/01/476522t41h0a7f.jpg

Really nice design,now add equally nice graphical design for buses = pure awesomeness! (being from Tallinn,I'm so damn jealous over that :D) Font used on tickets sucks though...as does the 'accurate ticket price'. I mean,c'mon - 83 Euro cents? :bash:

I'm not sure,but I think I've heard rumours that Sebe plans to have public presentation of new Tartu city buses before Christmas. Sadly I don't know where & when they are going to show them to public.


Reminds me of Debian(GNU/Linux distro) logo
http://blog.spry.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/debian.png

^^ i know i recognised it from somewhere.. also i think that the spiral doesnt fit for Tartu.. And whats the meaning of this anyway :D

^^ i know i recognised it from somewhere.. also i think that the spiral doesnt fit for Tartu.. And whats the meaning of this anyway :D


Tigutorn? :D

Lol,atleast Tartu won't have any copyright issues (I hope!) for using Debian spiral as everything related to it has open source licence :D

I'm not sure,but I think I've heard rumours that Sebe plans to have public presentation of new Tartu city buses before Christmas. Sadly I don't know where & when they are going to show them to public.

Sebe PR event is held tomorrow (Sunday 18th December) on Tartu Town Hall square. It starts 15.00,so if anyone is interested,they can check out new buses and even go on a test drive with them as passengers. Sebe presents both Scania & MAZ buses there.

Source: http://www.tartupostimees.ee/?id=359404

Any volunteers for a bit of photographing?

And here's closer look at those SEBE buses. This video only shows Scania Omnicity bus though,but it has all needed things installed and is sporting new white spiral design.

Use the link & click on 'Vaata videot' button to view it (video can't be embedded here)
http://www.reporter.ee/2010/12/19/uus-aasta-toob-tartus-liinile-uued-sobralikud-bussid/

Few photos of new Tartu buses. (most are hijacked from ytra.eu forum and rest is from Autoleht car magazine :shifty: no hard feelings,eh guys?)

Scania Omnicity,exterior (by ytra.eu forumer Taylor)
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10005/IMG_4922.jpg

Scania Omnicity,exterior (by Autoleht)
http://www.autoleht.ee/images/gallery/huge/5771.jpg

Scania Omnicity,interior (by ytra.eu forumer Albu)
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10004/normal_214BDHsalong.jpg

MAZ 107,exterior (by ytra.eu forumer Albu)
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10004/normal_923THV.jpg

MAZ 107,exterior (by Autoleht)
http://www.autoleht.ee/images/gallery/huge/5773.jpg

MAZ 107,interior (by ytra.eu forumer Albu)
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10004/normal_923THVsalong.jpg

MAZ 206 (by ytra.eu forumer Albu)
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10004/normal_075THV.jpg

MAZ 206 (by Autoleht)
http://www.autoleht.ee/images/gallery/huge/5769.jpg

And all three types of new Tartu buses on single photo (by Autoleht):
http://www.autoleht.ee/images/gallery/huge/5765.jpg

http://www.autoleht.ee/images/gallery/huge/5767.jpg

Gosh, those MAZ buses look like something from the 90s.... Just look at the driver's door, for example...WTF?...and the windshield is made in two parts :lol:

Gosh, those MAZ buses look like something from the 90s.... Just look at the driver's door, for example...WTF?...and the windshield is made in two parts :lol:

well to be fair, its not like the passengers will use the drivers door or the windshield...

For me it seems Scania has the worst front design :D But it should be more comfortable.

Anyway old Ikaruses had better seats than any other bus I ever rode. Same for old Skoda trolleys.

I'm surprised that none of you has noticed that grille on MAZ 107 back window,on the left corner. I lol'd when I first saw it,as it's common industrial grille (available at every DIY store :D) used for covering ventilation or wire shafts in factories,maintenance rooms or warehouses.

well to be fair, its not like the passengers will use the drivers door or the windshield...
Design has a huge impact on people, even if it's indirect. I thought you knew that.

Like that bright color, much better than horrible white/blue scheme used in Riga. Warm colors are much more suited for northern "grey" cities. :yes:

Design has a huge impact on people, even if it's indirect. I thought you knew that.

I think design has less to do with it then the MAZ signature.

deleted

EDIT - And for not wasting this post,here's a brief overview of Tallinna Autobussikoondis / TAK buses.

http://www.ee.ee/logod/00081590.GIF

Oldest 'new' buses,assembled in Tartu,Estonia - Scania L113CLB
Photo by Andreas Saluste,phototrans.eu,all rights reserved.
http://i51.tinypic.com/r7syfa.jpg

Scania Hess L94UB City
Photo by Andreas Saluste,phototrans.eu,all rights reserved.
http://i51.tinypic.com/13z69g5.jpg

Scania CL94UA 6x2/2LB
Photo by Fredrik Mattson,fredrik-mattsson.se,all rights reserved.
http://www.fredrik-mattsson.se/estonia/tallinnaautobussikoondisas/TAK1001-20070709.JPG

Scania K 270 UB4X2LB
Photo by przejk,phototrans.eu,all rights reserved.
http://i52.tinypic.com/mrq0rr.jpg

Scania CK310UA 6x2/2 LB
Photo by Andreas Saluste,phototrans.eu,all rights reserved.
http://i56.tinypic.com/5zjds9.jpg

Volvo B12MA Säffle
Photo by Andreas Saluste,phototrans.eu,all rights reserved.
http://i55.tinypic.com/j8pr1l.jpg

+we also have lots of old junk - second hand buses from Nordic cities (usually also Volvos & Scanias)

Don't bash me,but I think latest two axle Omnilink's come in several flavours...I think I left smth out also...

I think design has less to do with it then the MAZ signature.
Well, I have had a very bad experience with the MAZ buses in Tallinn(run by MRP liinid). The ride comfort is rubbish, it's noisy, cold and you can't see anything out of the window in the winter because it becomes foggy(no double glazing...) And then there's the reputation which is also important: you can't make PT appealing to regular people with these buses.

How much parts in that buss are actually MAZ made?



Scania CK310UA 6x2/2 LB
Photo by Andreas Saluste,phototrans.eu,all rights reserved.
http://i56.tinypic.com/5zjds9.jpg


Do you have low floor buses in Tallinn, even this Scania seems high floor?

Well, I have had a very bad experience with the MAZ buses in Tallinn(run by MRP liinid). The ride comfort is rubbish, it's noisy, cold and you can't see anything out of the window in the winter because it becomes foggy(no double glazing...) And then there's the reputation which is also important: you can't make PT appealing to regular people with these buses.
Tartu MAZ buses are said to have double glass windows,so atleast they got rid of one of it's problems.
How much parts in that buss are actually MAZ made?
Probably only bodywork. Engines & drivetrain should be from EU.

Do you have low floor buses in Tallinn, even this Scania seems high floor?
This model is the Omnilink which is low-floor at the first two doors. TAK has no full low-floor buses at the moment, only half low-floor. Temptrans, which runs a few lines, mostly going to Maardu, has a few fully low-floor buses.

Two smaller companies running Tallinn city bus lines (unlike TAK,both are private companies)

Temptrans - newest buses in the fleet are those Scania's. Colour scheme is nice & fits with TAK green-white livery :) It's always nice to see TAK & Temptrans buses together at the bus stops.

Photo by forumer Taylor,ytra.eu,all rights reserved.
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10005/1082.jpg

Photo by forumer Taylor,ytra.eu,all rights reserved.
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10005/299BCZ.jpg

MRP Linnaliinid - newest buses in the fleet are...

MAZ 206
Photo by forumer Taylor,ytra.eu,all rights reserved.
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10005/280BCE_MAZ_206_08_10_2009.jpg

and Mercedes Benz O345 Conecto
Photo by forumer Taylor,ytra.eu,all rights reserved.
http://galerii.ytra.eu/albums/userpics/10005/IMG_1229.jpg

Both Temptrans & MRP also operate loads of second hand buses.

From personal experience - MRP has the worst buses in Tallinn (probably other Tallinners agree with me) Both MAZ & MB Conecto's have appalling ride comfort :ohno: It's weird situation,considering that MRP operates passenger harbour & airport lines...a hell of a way to introduce Tallinn to tourists!

Personally, the only thing I find appalling is how people can continuously complain about these buses. How important can ride comfort be, when the ride takes only 30 minutes? I'd understand, if we talked about long-distance buses, but in Tallinn, if you need to get from A to B, both MAZ and Conecto buses are good enough. Sure, MAZ buses are small and instead of 12 and 49 they could find more use on routes 30 and 55, for example. And route 2 needs more buses, or a separate airport route, because Mõigu people find it quite annoying that the bus has to circle around the airport.

And when speaking of used buses, I find it extremely ignorant to call them junk. TAK has several Volvo articulated buses from Sweden and Denmark, which are really comfortable (as it seems to be the most important thing), they have a high capacity and they're warm during the winter and have good ventilation in the summer. MRP also bought several such buses from Denmark, which is a really good decision, as (nearly) all buses on route 13 are now articulated.

I think the real focus in Tallinn should be on building an efficient tram network with an efficient feeder route system, not on whining about the rolling stock, which is a real problem only in trams.

And when speaking of used buses, I find it extremely ignorant to call them junk. TAK has several Volvo articulated buses from Sweden and Denmark, which are really comfortable (as it seems to be the most important thing), they have a high capacity and they're warm during the winter and have good ventilation in the summer.

I agree. Especially those Danish Volvos are one of my favourite buses in Tallinn. The only problem is the high floor.

But I think ride comfort is very important. Yes, the ride may take only 30 min one-way but that's an hour per day, 5h per week, 20h per month, ~225h or 10 days per year. People rarely use intercity buses more than twice a week but city transport is used my many twice or more times a day.

Personally, the only thing I find appalling is how people can continuously complain about these buses. How important can ride comfort be, when the ride takes only 30 minutes? I'd understand, if we talked about long-distance buses, but in Tallinn, if you need to get from A to B, both MAZ and Conecto buses are good enough. Sure, MAZ buses are small and instead of 12 and 49 they could find more use on routes 30 and 55, for example. And route 2 needs more buses, or a separate airport route, because Mõigu people find it quite annoying that the bus has to circle around the airport.

And when speaking of used buses, I find it extremely ignorant to call them junk. TAK has several Volvo articulated buses from Sweden and Denmark, which are really comfortable (as it seems to be the most important thing), they have a high capacity and they're warm during the winter and have good ventilation in the summer. MRP also bought several such buses from Denmark, which is a really good decision, as (nearly) all buses on route 13 are now articulated.

I think the real focus in Tallinn should be on building an efficient tram network with an efficient feeder route system, not on whining about the rolling stock, which is a real problem only in trams.

I'm sorry,but I disagree with you on importance of ride comfort and also on TAK's junk buses.

Most of those TAK buses are from that large batch TAK bought,when they were replacing Ikarus buses,right? Maybe I should remind you that some of those buses were literally falling apart when they were bought and first ones were scrapped soon after purchase.

Tell me,how much of that is familiar to you (short summary of my experiences with those used TAK buses):

Udused ja läbipaistmatud klaasid..sageli kondensvesi loksumas või hallitus lõbusalt kasvamas klaaside vahel . Lisades sellele veel osades vanades bussides peatuste teavitamise süsteemi puudumise,muutub õige peatuse leidmine mälumänguks (soovitan soojalt seda proovida tipptunni ajal,kui buss on puupüsti rahvast täis :bash:)
Vägagi 'hüplik' sõit (leebelt öeldes...) Tekib küsimus kas osadel bussidel amorte üldse hooldatakse...
..Või kas busse üldse remonditakse. Paaril korral on buss lihtsalt ära surnud keset liini.
Talvel - küttesüsteemid või nende puudumine. Tavaliselt köetakse bussid saunadeks,kuid vahest on ka jääkülmi busse. Vanade busside puhul piisaks pisikesest süsteemi häälestamisest,et 'kliimat' natukenegi mugavamaks muuta.
Suvel - ebapiisav ventilatsioon (see viga kehtib kahjuks ka uute busside kohta)
Meeldivad omadused mida ma veel olen kogenud on veel heitgaaside bussi imbumine (paar aastat tagasi sõitsin 18 liiniga Järvele Kesklinnast... sisuliselt kogu bussitäis rahvast liikus sõidu ajal bussi esiotsa,kuna tagaosas oli võimatu elus püsida)

jne...jne...

Call me grumpy man,but that's my own experience's. Idea of PT is to provide comfortable & good service to ordinary users,not barely adequate 'meh,get on our bus,give us money,sit down & shut up' ride. I'm not the only one complaining and if there are many people complaining, then there might be reason for this.

But I think ride comfort is very important. Yes, the ride may take only 30 min one-way but that's an hour per day, 5h per week, 20h per month, ~960h or 40 days per year. People rarely use intercity buses more than twice a week but city transport is used my many twice or more times a day.

Not to mention that for getting around in Tallinn you might often need to change buses. For people commuting to work,school etc. those 30 minutes are only for single line...in reality daily travel might be up to 2h or more with PT. So in that perspective,ride comfort is very important.