NoBob
August 1st, 2010, 09:59 AM
In Singapore, there are cranes all over the city. Buildings going up all over. Mostly condominiums, offices and houses. Anywhere else this is happening?
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View Full Version : Which cities are still building? NoBob August 1st, 2010, 09:59 AM In Singapore, there are cranes all over the city. Buildings going up all over. Mostly condominiums, offices and houses. Anywhere else this is happening? Taller, Better August 1st, 2010, 02:59 PM Toronto. Lot's going up and new projects being announced. Vrooms August 1st, 2010, 04:41 PM Dubai!!! Probably the city with the most development projects now!!!! ssiguy2 August 1st, 2010, 04:45 PM Vancouver and especially Toronto. midotoria August 1st, 2010, 05:07 PM dubai and doha Dahlis August 1st, 2010, 05:11 PM Stockholm, still building. the spliff fairy August 1st, 2010, 05:13 PM Guangzhou, something like 6 supertalls going up and new CBD: http://pic.qnpic.com:83/r.jsp?fn=//fanjoin/share/2010/6/17/00000-526f-672c1.jpg http://pic.qnpic.com:83 http://image161.poco.cn/mypoco/myphoto/20100326/14/2776928201003261425533776273798508_009.jpg DiggerD21 August 1st, 2010, 08:09 PM Hamburg, but no Skyscrapers tough. capslock August 1st, 2010, 08:17 PM London is - although a lot slower for smaller residential schemes. New skyscrapers on the way, the Olympics and major infrastructure projects all ploughing stubbornly on. Long may it stay that way - I have to pay me mortgage you know :) sathya_226 August 1st, 2010, 08:19 PM i must say mumbai... its buzzing with construction activity.. the spliff fairy August 1st, 2010, 10:59 PM from 2009, from the cranes thread London's got loads as always - the city seems to be perpetually unfinished: Thanx to Wjfox, www.skyscrapercity.com http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3316/3502400590_fdf3bdfdb6_b.jpg www.flickr.com Holborn looking toward The City http://www.vusus.com/a_city_compressed.jpg www.vusus.com The City http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv295/nihildicit2/24Apr2009178.jpg Nihil Dicit, www.photobucket.com http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc360/londonfire/Picture139_134.jpg GazKinz, www.photobucket.com http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3617/3330335843_580623a2e7_b.jpg ::Wendy::, www.flickr.com North Bank http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3297/3601136453_413286b6b3_b.jpg www.flickr.com south City fringe http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3391/3582708788_186f14ea1e_b.jpg City fringe and East End http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3360/3580722389_b033e6b00a_o.jpg Hyde Park http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2437/3592587043_79416d9b1a_b.jpg www.flickr.com Regent's Park looking toward West End http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3194/mypix.jpg Jimbo, www.skyscrapercity.com West End http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc360/londonfire/Picture139_084.jpg GazKinz, www.skyscrapercity.com Docklands http://homepage.mac.com/benveasey/.Public/P1080364d.jpg http://homepage.mac.com Hackney looking into suburbs http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6001/img2635c.jpg Olympic site : http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3587/3553171725_d970b82c26_b.jpg http://d.yimg.com/i/ng/sp/afpji/20090521/newsmlmmd.dd28859c5c51705e31cd6ea1c380a86e.a11b.jpg wjfox, www.flickr.com, http://d.yimg.com new CBD, Stratford City: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3618/3391381523_443c0f378b_o.jpg Great West Quarter, Brentford: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2235/2414150656_870e12b3b5.jpg?v=0 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3509/3315633293_14c637959a.jpg Mark Hillary, Phill4, www.flickr.com North Greenwich http://i43.tinypic.com/65u5no.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3649/3368239794_f9f5ee70f9_o.jpg henry, www.flickr.com Kings Cross, new quarter http://www.bbcel.co.uk/documents/1904/1904-full.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/74/200302487_5134e35049.jpg?v=0 www.bbcel.co.uk http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/437618352_bfca289de0.jpg?v=0 http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/ctrl/coll_theregenerationbenefitsofth/dft_railways_035483-1.jpg picslikethis, www.flickr.com, www.dft.gov.uk mhays August 2nd, 2010, 03:24 AM As much as I love London (which I visit frequently because of family there), that's way too many photos. It gets in the way of the discussion. Seattle is building a small fraction of what we were. Around (greater) Downtown, there's still construction underway for the Amazon HQ, the Gates Foundation HQ, and an expansion at one hospital. Not a ton of other stuff is underway. And very little has broken ground lately around Downtown. One small spec office building recently started near Safeco Field, and a 200-unit, 6-story apartment recently started on Lower Queen Anne. The office was a surprise since we need years of absorption to even approach equilibrium. The apartment project was the first of what could become a new flurry...apartment vacancy rates have plummeted and developers are thinking hard about starting projects, though most are both not sure enough and not able to get good financing yet. The University of Washington is always building. Three new dorm buildings started this spring. The new business school building is nearly done with another phase about to start(?). New buildings are mid-way through construction for Molecular Sciences and at the UW Medical Center. They just started a massive renovation of the Husky Union Building. Next to the football stadium they have a big hole in the ground for a new subway line southward to Downtown, with a station planned for this site (in 2.5 years the same line will start building northward under the main campus). ukiyo August 2nd, 2010, 03:30 AM Suprisingly Tokyo still is. While the rest of Japan is aging, and the population is decreasing, Tokyo continues to grow (Rural/Suburban citizens continue moving into the city). There are dozens of 100-200m buildings going up all over the place, and of course the 634 M Tokyo Sky Tree. If you're interested in what Tokyo continues to build you can see it here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1081641 Dimethyltryptamine August 2nd, 2010, 04:54 AM South East Queensland is still powering ahead despite the GFC (though admittedly, things were much better looking before the GFC happened). Prior to the GFC, we had the following proposals; - Zaha Hadid's Surfers Paradise Transit Centre (346m) - E1 (320m) & E2 (340m) - French Quarter (320m & 286m) - Vision Tower (283m) - Eagle Street Pier Tower 1 (278m & 249m) - Silversea Spa and Resort (266m & 226m) - Trilogy Tower (255m) - Empire Square (240m) :( Now we only have Soul (243m), Soleil (243m) and Infinity (236m) over 200m. We're still building though! GENIUS LOCI August 2nd, 2010, 08:45 PM Milan is: the main projects are all under way MILANO, Italy http://www.mmilano.com/wp-content/gallery/palazzo-lombardia/DSC_2311.jpg by Langy (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/member.php?u=655865) http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9950/dsc0149a.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/i/dsc0149a.jpg/) by tonodb (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/member.php?u=452214) Hemhem... avete notato che la Webcam (http://www.milanocam.it/CityLife_1/) si è alzata? http://www.milanocam.it/CityLife_1/images_archive/20100705/20100705_090000_CityLife_1_800.jpg Kensingtonian August 3rd, 2010, 02:12 AM Panama City India101 August 3rd, 2010, 10:38 AM Mumbai has almost 100 highrises u/c and many many more on the way http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3341/cranedx.jpg (C)Satish Erran August 3rd, 2010, 10:52 AM I think every big city is still, especially capital city. In my country's capital, Jakarta, there are many under construction projects, several of them r Superblocks. Central Park http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3544/091122161555.jpg Rasuna Epicentrum http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3977/update01mj4.jpg And still many many more . . . Kenneth26 August 3rd, 2010, 08:50 PM PTY Panama City, Panama http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1392/dsc02311n.jpg http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7705/dsc02306w.jpg http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8917/dsc02305pb.jpg http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3403/dsc02314k.jpg viblack August 9th, 2010, 03:26 AM Belive or not, The companies in São Paulo are fighting for space. The buildings grow like grass. brazilteen August 9th, 2010, 03:30 AM EVERY CITY STUPID QUESTION desertpunk August 9th, 2010, 04:29 AM http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/4807644052_3109853887_b_d.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/8542593@N06/ NEW YORK: Several major ongoing projects like the World Trade Center 1,2,3,and 4 towers, 9-11 Memorial, and Beekman Tower in Lower Manhattan. Work begins soon on Carnegie 57 in Midtown along with ongoing construction at 440 W 42nd, The Setai, and other residential talls. Vrooms August 9th, 2010, 04:46 AM Dubai! It has 25% of the worlds cranes. Nouvellecosse August 9th, 2010, 12:38 PM The big question is which cities have started plans for new projects since the financial trouble, and which are just building things that were planned or started earlier. 3baaad 4 Jeddah August 10th, 2010, 03:09 PM King Abdullah Economic City (Under construction) north to Jeddah city http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/623/kaec.jpg ^^ Knowledge Economic City in Madinah city http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4525/90725568.jpg ^^ Prince Abdulaziz Bin Mousaed Economic City in Hail city http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5561/hailllkv9.jpg ^^ Jazan Economic City in Jazan city http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9075/jazan1oc1.jpg ^^ Tabuk Economic City in Tabuk city http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3828/tecpy7.jpg ^^ and Hundreds of projects in major cities : *Riyadh the capital city of saudi arabia http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3203/riyadh.jpg ^^ *Jeddah the Economic capital of saudi arabia http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9361/jeddah.jpg ^^ *Mecca Holy City http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3610/meccau.jpg ^^ *Madinah Holy City http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6631/madinah.jpg ^^ *Taif http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3139/taifd.jpg ^^ *Dammam the largest city in the east coast http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1520/dammam.jpg ^^ *Khubar http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6285/khubar1.jpg ^^ *yanbu Industrial city on the west coast http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5465/yanbu.jpg ^^ *Jubail Industrial city on the east coast http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/171/jubail.jpg ^^ Taller, Better August 10th, 2010, 08:14 PM Dubai! It has 25% of the worlds cranes. Still? Does anyone know where that figure came from in the first place? It seems practically impossible. eklips August 10th, 2010, 08:21 PM I think most people around here underestimate how wide the first/third world (a simplification, I know) breach is between cities. Most first world cities, even those we consider being under moderate construction booms are more or less built. 'Third world' cities, at least those I've visited and heard about are still getting built in their vast majority. People continue constructing their house (adding a floor, adding more paint, opening a small shop inside, adding a room etc.) when they get some more money, meaning that most of these cities are in complete transformation all the time, something miles ahead from what we know in richer countries where urban regulations are generally tighter. I think that sometimes we don't realise (at least in France) how deep this influences cities here in the richer countries. So what cities are still building? Appart from the obvious choices (China, gulf countries...), I think you should look towards Africa, the middle east, latin America, south asia etc. 3baaad 4 Jeddah August 11th, 2010, 07:05 PM In Riyadh city there are many big projects build in the city the biggest project King Abdullah Financial District hi guy todays new pics & vids when Dreams come true http://img102.herosh.com/2010/08/01/139257669.jpg http://img102.herosh.com/2010/08/01/181895663.jpg http://img103.herosh.com/2010/08/01/630160491.jpg I hope you enjoy tX-RDEkSU9M BAhfvnL7EBs&feature=related - http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1051/254147065376.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/254147065376.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) - Saudi Arabia was not affected by the global financial crisis in 2008 so you can see alot of project all over the country Taller, Better August 11th, 2010, 07:12 PM Most first world cities, even those we consider being under moderate construction booms are more or less built. . In some cases, but not always. Toronto, for example, is a hive of highrise construction activity, with new projects still being announced. " In the second quarter of the year the city had 272 condominium projects on the market — the most of any metropolitan area on the continent." http://www.thestar.com/business/arti...to-hotels?bn=1 Cities with rapidly expanding populations are still building. poshbakerloo August 12th, 2010, 05:39 PM London always seems to have cranes everywhere yet nuffink changes! lol Concrete Stereo August 13th, 2010, 02:31 AM The government Amsterdam has issued a 'building stop' - meaning, initiated projects with contracts signed will be finished, new projects or projects that weren't past that point are stopped for the time being. This affects both housing and office production. This needs a bit of explanation. The government is preferred buyer of land to prevent ground speculation. This means in reality, that the municipality has mayor income from developments by acquiring land, changing zoning, and selling it to project developments. The government uses 'commercial' landsales to finance unprofitable developments (by means of below market vallue landsales). However, with the income from commercial sales dropped, it cannot afford to continue the unprofitable developments for the time being. The municipality this way can effectively freezeframe mayor developments. It will be fine eventually, though. In the end, it's better to build well than to build much. goschio August 13th, 2010, 02:31 PM Belive or not, The companies in São Paulo are fighting for space. The buildings grow like grass. To bad not like trees. Sao Paulo should get some true skyscrapers and not this endless sea of midrises. arquitekto June 7th, 2011, 06:55 AM It must be the cities in: (in random order) China- (Shanghai, Beijing, Congqing, Nanjing, Guangzhou, almost all of their cities are in construction boom) South Korea- (Seoul, Busan, Incheon, Daejeon, Daegu, Ulsan) Vietnam- (Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh, Hai Phong, Nha Trang) India- (Mumbai, Delhi, Hyderabad, Bangalore, Kolkata) UAE- (Dubai, Sharjah, Abu Dhabi) Philippines- (Metro Manila, Metro Cebu, Metro Davao, Ilo-Ilo, Santa Rosa, Cagayan de Oro, Zamboanga) Malaysia- (Kuala Lumpur, Penang, Kota Kinabalu, Putrajaya, Cyberjaya) Indonesia- (Jakarta, Surabaya, Medan, Balikpapan) Thailand- (Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket, Chiang Mai, Nonthaburi) Qatar- (Doha) Russia- (Moscow, Novosibirsk, Yekaterinburg, Samara) Azerbaijan- (Baku) Saudi Arabia- (Riyadh, Jeddah, Mecca) Morocco- (Casablanca, Tangiers, Rabat) Tunisia- (Tunis) Kuwait- (Kuwait City) Turkey- (Istanbul) Norway- (Oslo) United States- (NYC, SFO, Chicago, LA) Cambodia- (Phnom Penh) Singapore- (Singapore City) Canada- (Toronto, Mississauga, Vancouver) -based on their construction projects (in my opinion) :) -i didn't count the cranes :lol: :lol: :lol: Slartibartfas June 7th, 2011, 09:12 PM I think most people around here underestimate how wide the first/third world (a simplification, I know) breach is between cities. That is true to some point. But if you take Vienna for example. It is currently growing about half as fast as it did during the major urbanizing era of Austria 150-80 years ago. I wouldn't call that "static". I suspect however that many 3rd world cities are growing faster nowadays than Vienna ever did. After all 2 mio people was already huge 100 years ago. Mr_Dru June 8th, 2011, 12:12 AM Planned city Almere-Stad in the Netherlands does not have huge skyscrapers but they are still building and expanding. Almere is built on a man made island in the former Zuiderzee. It's just located 20km from Amsterdam. The (Flevoland) island of 248,77 km² was finished in 1962 and Almere city is establish in 1970 and lays -4m under sealevel. Inhabitants 1970 = 0 1975 = 74 2011 = 191.000 2030 = 230.00 (planning) http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af302/parmentier09/image.jpg ** Dimethyltryptamine June 8th, 2011, 09:49 AM Australian cities are still building Melbourne - 57 buildings over 90m > 15 over 150m > 6 over 200m Sydney - 37 buildings over 100m > 16 over 150m > 3 over 200m Brisbane - 40 buildings over 100m > 9 over 150m > 3 over 200m isaidso June 8th, 2011, 10:03 AM Sydney really seems to be losing steam to Melbourne and southeast Queensland. In many ways, that's probably good for Australia. It's better for a country to have a few large cities rather than 1 that dominates over the rest. Despite quicker % growth in Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton, the Toronto area is becoming too dominant within Canada. About 25% of the Canadian population now lives in and around Toronto, or 8.5 million people. mhays June 8th, 2011, 05:32 PM Seattle is still very slow overall. But in core urban districts, apartments started to break ground a year ago, and this year has had a boom-level volume of starts, augmented by universities building a lot of dormitories. Other neighborhoods are building very little housing. Commercial development is the deadest it's been in decades citywide, despite a few projects here and there. Several major institutional projects are winding down. Government projects are less common. The other bright spot is major transportation projects (new rail, highway replacement). Kensingtonian June 9th, 2011, 12:40 AM Does anyone know which city has the most highrise construction (at least 12 floors or 35m) in the world? According to the maps on Skyscraperpage it's Toronto, with 121 highrises under construction. However, I suspect non-English speaking cities are grossly under-reported on that site. How many highrises are currently under construction in cities like Shanghai, Dubai, etc? fragel June 9th, 2011, 03:17 AM I believe that the city with most highrise construction ongoing in China is Tianjin. It is like a big construction site, and the two business districts alone are already so impressive. Yujiapu business district, see more at http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1304293 http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu158/barbaricmanchurian/yujiapu/11011921369439af706a7e2a61.jpg Xiangluowan business district, see more at http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1144467&page=7 http://i.imgur.com/yuxV8.jpg Manila-X June 9th, 2011, 08:51 AM Every major city around the world are building. There is construction of some type happening. ssiguy2 June 12th, 2011, 04:54 AM Tor is booming like mad but so are Van/Mon/Cal/Ott. Clery June 12th, 2011, 05:44 AM I recently visited Dakar, Senegal. I would say there are about as many buildings currently under construction than there are buildings actually built. It's totally insane. Indeed, Eklips is right. In poorer countries, it's actually whole cities which are getting built nearly from scratch. No city in the developped world could compete. It's just not the same scale. PanaManiac June 28th, 2011, 08:13 PM Panama City will never stop building anymore than it's population will stop reproducing. In fact, it's hard to tell which is outpacing the other. (that might be an exaggeration but not by much). The skyline is perpetually littered with construction cranes - the national bird of the country. To whit... 22XP4Xvlewo http://i56.tinypic.com/ogys7s.jpg PanaManiac June 28th, 2011, 08:43 PM ^^ As if that were not enough, say hello to (are you ready for this?) - PANATROPOLIS! EIwdPxLz5uc joshsam June 28th, 2011, 09:01 PM All I can say is: NICE! but I don't get why they would wanna build next to the airport. Has lots of disadvantages and te airport can not grow anymore... PanaManiac June 29th, 2011, 09:54 AM All I can say is: NICE! but I don't get why they would wanna build next to the airport. Has lots of disadvantages and te airport can not grow anymore...It's a concept conceived by one John D. Kasarda, who also coined the word AEROTROPOLIS. It cosists of having the convenience of an urban development adjacent to the airport, thereby eliminating the longer trip into the city. It's not unlike the existing concept of hotels near the airport, except that in Kasarda's vision, it includes everything you'd find downtown. AEROTROPOLIS (http://www.aerotropolis.com/airportCities/about-the-aerotropolis) zEOPkEYXmM4 sweet-d June 29th, 2011, 11:34 AM ^^^^ sounds pretty stupid to me not every one wants to pay a lot of money and have air planes flying over them all day and night. but the other plans in panama were great. PanaManiac June 29th, 2011, 06:50 PM ^^^^ sounds pretty stupid to me not every one wants to pay a lot of money and have air planes flying over them all day and night. but the other plans in panama were great.I can't speak to the projects in other parts of the world, but it seems to me - based on the layout of the development at PTY* - aircraft will approach the runway paralell to, rather than overhead. Presumably, some sort of noise abatement will be in place. *Aviation code for Tocumen International Airport. brazilteen June 29th, 2011, 07:58 PM In my mind all the developing countries has cities that are being built yet....there is a district called campolim in my city that was a farm until 1980 and in 1990 had only a road and a school and now has all the niciest stores,restaurants,good schools,malls and parks of the city :D :P PanaManiac June 29th, 2011, 08:33 PM In my mind all the developing countries has cities that are being built yet....there is a district called campolim in my city that was a farm until 1980 and in 1990 had only a road and a school and now has all the niciest stores,restaurants,good schools,malls and parks of the city :D :PJust to be clear, would that be Sorocaba? joshsam June 30th, 2011, 01:47 PM In my mind all the developing countries has cities that are being built yet....there is a district called campolim in my city that was a farm until 1980 and in 1990 had only a road and a school and now has all the niciest stores,restaurants,good schools,malls and parks of the city :D :P It's very stupid to think that cities in non developing countries don't get new neighbourhoods or get more density in certain neighborhoods due to new construction. Lot's of people in Latin-America seem to think that Europe doesn't build anymore and that increase of population has stopped. This is not true. European cities build. e.g. I live in small town of 40.000 inhab (see my signature for pics). It is getting 3 new residential area's as we speak. eklips June 30th, 2011, 04:19 PM ^^ Except in cases of exceptionnal boom, such as Spain in the early 2000s, it's not comparable, you have to see it to understand it. I'm not saying all "developing" countries are like that but lots are, it's not just about having neighborhoods in construction, it's also about the fact that many existing populated areas are always rebuilding themselves, evolving, people add new floors to their houses, they paint a wall etc. whenever they have money. And also, such places like in China are going through real estate booms that make Spain in the 2000s look like a Scottish village frozen in time. gabrielbabb June 30th, 2011, 07:52 PM Mexico is starting to build again. 10 years ago mexican cities used to be all house residential and commercial districts at street level, now people is trying to live in apartments and starting to build more skyscrapers in almost every single medium and big city, the most changed during the last years due to new neighbourhoods or regentrification for building vertically are: Zapopan in Guadalajara Guadalajara San Pedro in Monterrey Monterrey Santa Fé in Mexico city Paseo de la Reforma in Mexico City Puerto Peñasco Acapulco Diamante Cancun Puerto Vallarta Tijuana Veracruz Puebla Querétaro León San Luis Potosí Mazatlán zaphod July 2nd, 2011, 07:41 PM Another thing about cities in the developed world is there is more sprawl and less multistory buildings with cranes going up on the skyline. So it is less exciting. Some cities in the US have grown substantially in population but except for a few new downtown buildings and some revitalized urban neighborhoods the recognizable parts of the cityscape haven't changed. brazilteen July 2nd, 2011, 08:12 PM It's very stupid to think that cities in non developing countries don't get new neighbourhoods or get more density in certain neighborhoods due to new construction. Lot's of people in Latin-America seem to think that Europe doesn't build anymore and that increase of population has stopped. This is not true. European cities build. e.g. I live in small town of 40.000 inhab (see my signature for pics). It is getting 3 new residential area's as we speak. I've been twice to Europe I know that Europe still growing an example of that is La Defanse in Paris Wunderknabe July 2nd, 2011, 09:55 PM Of course any city in the world is building. I guess the intention of this Thread was to find out which of those are building the most. To say which are more than booming. European cities (and north american too) are not booming. Of course there are a lot of projects, including very big ones actualy, but thats just the normal Process of regeneration, renovation, replacements etc. For instance Berlin has some very big projects going on, including a big new Airport, several bigger government buildings and countless other smaller projects. Its also growing in terms of inhabitants. Not much (10000 to 20000 a year) but its growing. Same with for example London: a lot of projects going on there, including great skyscrapers, but the face of the city is not changing radicaly. I would say thats just ordinary Evolution. Compared to that cities like Dubai or all the Chineese cities are just a quite different class of quantity. edit-- La defense is growing too. Great. But compared to Shanghai or so its just a joke ;) (quantity-wise I must add) |