I don't agree with putting power lines through Hardanger and spoiling the scenery so I thought of another option, how about building a gas fired power station, Aukra isn't that far away, a subsea pipeline could be built from Ormen Lange to Bergen, problem solved, Bergen gets the power it needs and Hardanger remains untouched.

I'm amazed that this option hasn't been considered. Norway has a lot of gas, it's cheap, a station could be commissioned fairly quickly.

I'm sorry everyone feels it's ok to have powerlines all over the country, except poor Hardanger... It's not like they're so damn visible anyways.

These guys are impossible, have they ever travelled? Visible infrastructure is an awesome part of any landscape, ever driven Rv50 from Geilo to Aurland? Do it!

Masts are ugly? Well, do something about it. We can't dig them down, it's hopelessly expensive and less stable:

Sculpture-mast competition from Statnett:
http://www.statnett.no/no/Om-Statnett/Forskning-og-innovasjon/Designkonkurranse-skulpturmast/Forslag-pa-skulpturmast/

Gas is quite controversial in Norway still, isn't it?

^^ Why should gas be controversial in Norway, all the platforms sitting offshore are powered by gas turbines, but I guess (mostly) out of sight, out of mind.

the power lines in Hardanger show that the osloarrogance (yes, thats a real term in norway!!) has reached a new level.. something i find very disturbing.

now theyve even pulled the "in norway the periphery (not sure if this world can be used like that in english) get way more money than in any other country"-card.

wow. western norway produces 80% of the countrys economy.. yet we are treated like a colony. for people in oslo norway consists of two parts.. "oslo" and "outside of oslo", with the latter one being completely worthless, according to them. i find such ignorance very hard to cope with and its really pushing the limits of my tolerance.

i dont mind oslo. surely, its a bunch of abysmal buildings filled with tons of prostitutes and cirminals situated on a relatively uninteresting patch of land creating a soulless and not very respectable environment. the city is a lost case in the way that i doubt it will ever grow to be a respectable city, not to say itll never be able to greatly represent the amazing country that is norway.

but that doesnt mean i dont care about it.. surely its nothing special, but oslo and the people in it are my countrymen and i respect them. though if they continue to disrespect me in such a reprehensible manner, this might change. its not a threat, rather just a warning. there is only so much shit you can throw at someone before they realize that theyre just not having it.

this shit is not acceptable anymore, the osloarrogance has gone way too far. im glad that many politicians in bergen are already standing up for themselves and trying to stop it. if these power lines are built itll be pushing the glass that is western norway even further towards the edge of the table. if we are continued to be treated like subhumans and the glass falls over and breaks, we already have solutions like the one proposed by vestlandspartiet, which might or might not lead us into the future.

that is my take on this case.

i dont mind oslo. surely, its a bunch of abysmal buildings filled with tons of prostitutes and cirminals situated on a relatively uninteresting patch of land creating a soulless and not very respectable environment. the city is a lost case in the way that i doubt it will ever grow to be a respectable city, not to say itll never be able to greatly represent the amazing country that is norway.

First time I think I have ever completely agreed with something that you have said. Best description I've heard of Oslo to date.

Meh, they're just power lines, won't ruin the landscape that much. And seeing as we love to make artwork out of just about anything ,why not make it visually interesting?

the power lines in Hardanger show that the osloarrogance (yes, thats a real term in norway!!) has reached a new level.. something i find very disturbing.

now theyve even pulled the "in norway the periphery (not sure if this world can be used like that in english) get way more money than in any other country"-card.

wow. western norway produces 80% of the countrys economy.. yet we are treated like a colony. for people in oslo norway consists of two parts.. "oslo" and "outside of oslo", with the latter one being completely worthless, according to them. i find such ignorance very hard to cope with and its really pushing the limits of my tolerance.

i dont mind oslo. surely, its a bunch of abysmal buildings filled with tons of prostitutes and cirminals situated on a relatively uninteresting patch of land creating a soulless and not very respectable environment. the city is a lost case in the way that i doubt it will ever grow to be a respectable city, not to say itll never be able to greatly represent the amazing country that is norway.

but that doesnt mean i dont care about it.. surely its nothing special, but oslo and the people in it are my countrymen and i respect them. though if they continue to disrespect me in such a reprehensible manner, this might change. its not a threat, rather just a warning. there is only so much shit you can throw at someone before they realize that theyre just not having it.

this shit is not acceptable anymore, the osloarrogance has gone way too far. im glad that many politicians in bergen are already standing up for themselves and trying to stop it. if these power lines are built itll be pushing the glass that is western norway even further towards the edge of the table. if we are continued to be treated like subhumans and the glass falls over and breaks, we already have solutions like the one proposed by vestlandspartiet, which might or might not lead us into the future.

that is my take on this case.'

Do you honestly get all your opinions from newspapers?! You seems to be just as biased and populas as them.. completely out of touch with reality.

^^:hilarious

I say build the lines. Hardanger is my homeplace, and I have news for you, it is already full of power lines in the landscape.

'

Do you honestly get all your opinions from newspapers?! You seems to be just as biased and populas as them.. completely out of touch with reality.

what makes you think this? exactly what about my post is completely out of touch with reality?

and if i may ask, where exactly do you get your opinions from? if you have some sort of source that is somehow guaranteed to be totally honest and unbiased id be happy if you could share it with me..

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IH31wOnafrM/TDoGxy2O-gI/AAAAAAAAAXU/2HhmVSbi9dc/s1600/Bryggen+H%C3%B8yspent.jpg

http://blogg.aftenposten.no/svendby/files/2010/07/bevar_hardanger_aksjonsbilde.jpg

http://gfx.nrk.no/Fr738CKiVIq2CaolkdziOApPxc7jdiip5XCUirROFJFA.jpg

these pictures are proof that the already extreme arrogance of oslo has reached a new height and it surely gives the people of the "rural areas" (read: people not from oslo) of this country good reason to worry..

City of Rain, you have to get real. It is not Oslo, or the people of Oslo that has decided this. It is the government (mostly AP). You could just as well go to the streets in Bergen and warn all the AP voters in the city :nuts: Oh gee, why am I spending my time on this...:ohno:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IH31wOnafrM/TDoGxy2O-gI/AAAAAAAAAXU/2HhmVSbi9dc/s1600/Bryggen+H%C3%B8yspent.jpg

http://blogg.aftenposten.no/svendby/files/2010/07/bevar_hardanger_aksjonsbilde.jpg

http://gfx.nrk.no/Fr738CKiVIq2CaolkdziOApPxc7jdiip5XCUirROFJFA.jpg

these pictures are proof that the already extreme arrogance of oslo has reached a new height and it surely gives the people of the "rural areas" (read: people not from oslo) of this country good reason to worry..[/QUOTE]


These pictures are rather proof of the propaganda going on in this case. Is the "monster masts" scaring the colors away? And why are they comparing the size of the masts to the buildings at bryggen? I guess most people in Oslo don't care about the power supply in Bergen but maybe you should..

I'm not sure where I stand in this case. I dont know if there are good alternatives like kiwirob started this thread questioning. I guess in discussions where im kind of neutral its easiest to take side with the ones that seems most intelligent, and your posts in this thread CoR is ignorance on a whole new level.

City of Rain, you have to get real. It is not Oslo, or the people of Oslo that has decided this. It is the government (mostly AP). You could just as well go to the streets in Bergen and warn all the AP voters in the city :nuts: Oh gee, why am I spending my time on this...:ohno:

I am completely aware that it is the government, especially AP, that has yet again shown how little they care about areas outside of Oslo.

These pictures are rather proof of the propaganda going on in this case. Is the "monster masts" scaring the colors away? And why are they comparing the size of the masts to the buildings at bryggen? I guess most people in Oslo don't care about the power supply in Bergen but maybe you should..

I'm not sure where I stand in this case. I dont know if there are good alternatives like kiwirob started this thread questioning. I guess in discussions where im kind of neutral its easiest to take side with the ones that seems most intelligent, and your posts in this thread CoR is ignorance on a whole new level.


So, because I criticize your city and your attitude in general against norwegians who are not from Oslo, I am ignorant? :nuts: makes perfect sense..

The pictures are there to prove to people what an awful effect these masts will have on hardanger and to make people aware that this is something we do not want. My guess is that they've used bryggen to compare it to because most people in Bergen know how big bryggen is..?

I find it plausible how all you do is call me things without even giving reasons for why you do it. That's not very smart if you want to have a discussion, nor is it a sign of extreme intelligence, for that matter... Who the heck are you attacking me with your first post anyway?

i dont mind oslo. surely, its a bunch of abysmal buildings filled with tons of prostitutes and cirminals situated on a relatively uninteresting patch of land creating a soulless and not very respectable environment. the city is a lost case in the way that i doubt it will ever grow to be a respectable city, not to say itll never be able to greatly represent the amazing country that is norway.


I think that this probably accuratly describes the way a lot of people outside Oslo feels about Oslo. Probably almost noone with those view has lived here. I think I'm one of the few people in Norway that loves cities more than nature, and that why I love Oslo. In Norway no city can compete with Oslo at being a "city". If Oslo can't "grow to be a respectable city", which city in Norway can? I feel that Oslo is already a great place, and improving almost day by day.

Oslo isn't bad, I like it, and have visited it myself, maybe it's because i'm from Haugesund though, and therefore don't get worked up if something is ugly or stained or full of drug addicts . :lol: Or it could just be that i'm not a stuck up twit who seems to always find something to pick on cities because they are just that, cities.



Back on the topic of the power lines though, yes there is an alternative, and that is laying cables in the fjords, but that is VERY expensive to place, let alone MAINTAIN, and the reality is, Bergen region needs power, badly. So what other options are there than powerlines? Gas plants are ruled out, that won't happen.

And on a side not to City Of Rain; You do realise that is for your city right? Yes, that's right, Bergen your city will get blackouts in a few years if you DON'T get more powerlines to feed the city's powergrid.
So are you going to bitch and moan about Hardanger getting ruined by some powerlines ( which it won't in any realistic person's eyes) or
going to accept the fact that this isn't an arrogant move from Oslo, but more of a question of priority would you rather have power, or have no power just because you want bloody tourists visiting Hardanger?

I am completely aware that it is the government, especially AP, that has yet again shown how little they care about areas outside of Oslo.

Other examples?

And please, dont make this in to a Oslo vs. vestlandet thread, this has nothing to with it.

Edit: Welcome T+A :)

So, because I criticize your city and your attitude in general against norwegians who are not from Oslo, I am ignorant? :nuts: makes perfect sense..

The pictures are there to prove to people what an awful effect these masts will have on hardanger and to make people aware that this is something we do not want. My guess is that they've used bryggen to compare it to because most people in Bergen know how big bryggen is..?

I find it plausible how all you do is call me things without even giving reasons for why you do it. That's not very smart if you want to have a discussion, nor is it a sign of extreme intelligence, for that matter... Who the heck are you attacking me with your first post anyway?[/QUOTE]


Not at all, I critizise the biased pictures and arguments you presented. If you don't realise how ignorant it is to blame Oslo and not the government I'm not sure what to say to you.. And I havent called you anything, have I? I'm not attacking you, just your argumentation in this case. Your posts caught my attention, am I not allowed to reply even if it was my first post?

Edit: Welcome T+A :)

Thank you.

I think that this probably accuratly describes the way a lot of people outside Oslo feels about Oslo. Probably almost noone with those view has lived here. I think I'm one of the few people in Norway that loves cities more than nature, and that why I love Oslo. In Norway no city can compete with Oslo at being a "city". If Oslo can't "grow to be a respectable city", which city in Norway can? I feel that Oslo is already a great place, and improving almost day by day.

better at being a city? a city is a city. have you ever been outside of oslo? both Bergen and Trondheim would do a much better job at representing this country. I believe stavanger would also be a valid contestant.

Oslo isn't bad, I like it, and have visited it myself, maybe it's because i'm from Haugesund though, and therefore don't get worked up if something is ugly or stained or full of drug addicts . :lol: Or it could just be that i'm not a stuck up twit who seems to always find something to pick on cities because they are just that, cities.

i believe its because of the first reason.. and did you just call me a stuck up twit?

And on a side not to City Of Rain; You do realise that is for your city right? Yes, that's right, Bergen your city will get blackouts in a few years if you DON'T get more powerlines to feed the city's powergrid.
So are you going to bitch and moan about Hardanger getting ruined by some powerlines ( which it won't in any realistic person's eyes) or
going to accept the fact that this isn't an arrogant move from Oslo, but more of a question of priority would you rather have power, or have no power just because you want bloody tourists visiting Hardanger?

i do realize that i am the one who would benefit from this, but i dont care. i belive that there are other values than money.. and i also care about areas outside of my own cities boundaries, as opposed to some.. this has nothing to do with tourism.

Other examples?

the distribution of the national budget.

Not at all, I critizise the biased pictures and arguments you presented. If you don't realise how ignorant it is to blame Oslo and not the government I'm not sure what to say to you.. And I havent called you anything, have I? I'm not attacking you, just your argumentation in this case. Your posts caught my attention, am I not allowed to reply even if it was my first post?

i am blaming the government, but drawing a line to how this is the exact attitude found in many of the people in oslo - complete carelessness for the people who are getting enormous and ugly power lines in their backyard. they are your countrymen ffs!! not to say this is one of the most beautiful areas in the entire country and the world - i bet youd be fine with politicians in oslo deciding to burn down bryggen in bergen in order to make room for new office buildings, too? :nuts: may i ask, have you ever been outside of oslo? if not, i suggest you take a trip round the country so you can realize that you live in what is maybe the least valuabe, yet the most "påkostede" (costly?) place in the entire nation!!

and youre telling me to get real? :nuts: please realize where the real value of this country lies! no, its NOT oslo! realize what is worth taking care of and not ruining with ugly freaking power lines. jeez! :nuts:

And I havent called you anything, have I?

you called me less intelligent and said that i take ignorance to a whole new level.

Sounds like you need a reality check. Unfortunatly I'm too lazy to debunk all of this, but just needed to counter a couple of things:

the power lines in Hardanger show that the osloarrogance (yes, thats a real term in norway!!) has reached a new level.. something i find very disturbing.

now theyve even pulled the "in norway the periphery (not sure if this world can be used like that in english) get way more money than in any other country"-card.

Who are "they"?

How much do you think a a citizen in rural areas should receive compared to a citizen from Oslo?

I think rural vs. urban is a silly argument, but even so you have to take into account how many people it benefits. In this case I'm in favour of spending a lot of tax money on a project mainly benifiting Bergen. I'm certainly open to other solutions since I can see the problem of wires through such a beautiful landscape.


wow. western norway produces 80% of the countrys economy..


This is so total and utter nonsense that I'm not going to give you much of an answer. Can you start by refering to the source of this 80%-number?

Anyway, you clearly think that the full value of all oil, fish etc from western Norway is created there. This is totally, totally wrong. Look at the budget of e.g. Statoil. To get the oil up they have to spend a _lot_ of money on various goods and services such as steel and concrete for the oil platform, drilling robots, security equipment, instrumets for measuring pressure in the pipes, insurance services for the workers, education for the geologists they're employing .... and the list goes on and on and on. All of this is neccessary for getting the oil up, and is part of the value chain. If you follow the stream of money you'll see that precious little of the value is generated locally. Did you really think that all the produce of western Norway just magically appeard from thin air?

And even if you did, it still wouldn't add up to 80%. Not even remotely close.


yet we are treated like a colony. for people in oslo norway consists of two parts.. "oslo" and "outside of oslo", with the latter one being completely worthless, according to them. i find such ignorance very hard to cope with and its really pushing the limits of my tolerance.


I'm truely sorry you feel this way, but this has nothing to do with Oslo. This was decided by politicians voted into their positions by an electorate system where the citizens of Oslo have the least power of all Norwegian (hint: the area of a county is part of the equation for how many seats the county has in the Storting, and this composition decides who get to form a government).

Just because the politicians congregate in Oslo doesn't mean they are representing Oslo.


i dont mind oslo. surely, its a bunch of abysmal buildings filled with tons of prostitutes and cirminals situated on a relatively uninteresting patch of land creating a soulless and not very respectable environment. the city is a lost case in the way that i doubt it will ever grow to be a respectable city, not to say itll never be able to greatly represent the amazing country that is norway.


:)
You're entitled to your own opinion on this one


but that doesnt mean i dont care about it.. surely its nothing special, but oslo and the people in it are my countrymen and i respect them. though if they continue to disrespect me in such a reprehensible manner, this might change. its not a threat, rather just a warning. there is only so much shit you can throw at someone before they realize that theyre just not having it.

this shit is not acceptable anymore, the osloarrogance has gone way too far. im glad that many politicians in bergen are already standing up for themselves and trying to stop it. if these power lines are built itll be pushing the glass that is western norway even further towards the edge of the table. if we are continued to be treated like subhumans and the glass falls over and breaks, we already have solutions like the one proposed by vestlandspartiet, which might or might not lead us into the future.

that is my take on this case.

Maybe you should read up on the real arguments for/against the powerlines. Personally I'm glad I don't have to make the decision. Statnett argues that cables under ground and water will be more visible than these power lines actually. Plus it will be less reliable, much more expensive, and it will be very difficult to fix problems with the cable when they occur, meaning that Bergen could have serious electricity problems for months until they get it fixed.

http://www.tu.no/energi/article249699.ece

better at being a city? a city is a city. have you ever been outside of oslo? both Bergen and Trondheim would do a much better job at representing this country. I believe stavanger would also be a valid contestant.



i am blaming the government, but drawing a line to how this is the exact attitude found in many of the people in oslo - complete carelessness for the people who are getting enormous and ugly power lines in their backyard. they are your countrymen ffs!! not to say this is one of the most beautiful areas in the entire country and the world - i bet youd be fine with politicians in oslo deciding to burn down bryggen in bergen in order to make room for new office buildings, too? :nuts: may i ask, have you ever been outside of oslo? if not, i suggest you take a trip round the country so you can realize that you live in what is maybe the least valuabe, yet the most "påkostede" (costly?) place in the entire nation!!

and youre telling me to get real? :nuts: please realize where the real value of this country lies! no, its NOT oslo! realize what is worth taking care of and not ruining with ugly freaking power lines. jeez! :nuts:

you called me less intelligent and said that i take ignorance to a whole new level.


Oslo has among other things size, diversity, connectivity, Norways most famous museums, park and sport arenas, and capital status on is side. Why do you feel Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger would represent Norway better? Ofcourse I have been outside Oslo. I have lived in several cities in Norway and abroad. I have lived in Bergen for 7 years (longer than I have lived in Oslo).


The powerlines has to do with Bergen and not Oslo. And probably conterary to your belief no city in Norway creates more value than Oslo. http://www.ssb.no/fnr/

Yes, i think you seem ignorant in this thread. No offence.

i am blaming the government, but drawing a line to how this is the exact attitude found in many of the people in oslo - complete carelessness for the people who are getting enormous and ugly power lines in their backyard. they are your countrymen ffs!! not to say this is one of the most beautiful areas in the entire country and the world - i bet youd be fine with politicians in oslo deciding to burn down bryggen in bergen in order to make room for new office buildings, too? :nuts: may i ask, have you ever been outside of oslo? if not, i suggest you take a trip round the country so you can realize that you live in what is maybe the least valuabe, yet the most "påkostede" (costly?) place in the entire nation!!


?

I live in Oslo and know a lot of people here, but your description of the attitude of people from Oslo is something I can't say I recognize. What makes you believe people from Oslo don't give a shit about the rest of the country? To me it seems that most people from Oslo are either:
1) Born + grew up somewhere else in Norway (like myself)
2) Have strong links to another part of Norway through family or partner (visiting regularly)

And money spent on buildings and infrastructure in Oslo is mostly local money. Can you give me a source of data showing that Oslo get's more than it's share of national money?

BTW: Read my reply on the previous page as well if you didn't see it.

Back on the topic of the power lines though, yes there is an alternative, and that is laying cables in the fjords, but that is VERY expensive to place, let alone MAINTAIN, and the reality is, Bergen region needs power, badly. So what other options are there than powerlines? Gas plants are ruled out, that won't happen.


Why are gas plants ruled out, there are hundreds of them offshore, why shouldn't they be used onshore, why the hypocrisy, are people daft enough to believe that Norway not using gas is going to save the environment or is setting a good example?

the power lines in Hardanger show that the osloarrogance (yes, thats a real term in norway!!) has reached a new level.. something i find very disturbing.

now theyve even pulled the "in norway the periphery (not sure if this world can be used like that in english) get way more money than in any other country"-card.

wow. western norway produces 80% of the countrys economy.. yet we are treated like a colony. for people in oslo norway consists of two parts.. "oslo" and "outside of oslo", with the latter one being completely worthless, according to them. i find such ignorance very hard to cope with and its really pushing the limits of my tolerance.

i dont mind oslo. surely, its a bunch of abysmal buildings filled with tons of prostitutes and cirminals situated on a relatively uninteresting patch of land creating a soulless and not very respectable environment. the city is a lost case in the way that i doubt it will ever grow to be a respectable city, not to say itll never be able to greatly represent the amazing country that is norway.

but that doesnt mean i dont care about it.. surely its nothing special, but oslo and the people in it are my countrymen and i respect them. though if they continue to disrespect me in such a reprehensible manner, this might change. its not a threat, rather just a warning. there is only so much shit you can throw at someone before they realize that theyre just not having it.

this shit is not acceptable anymore, the osloarrogance has gone way too far. im glad that many politicians in bergen are already standing up for themselves and trying to stop it. if these power lines are built itll be pushing the glass that is western norway even further towards the edge of the table. if we are continued to be treated like subhumans and the glass falls over and breaks, we already have solutions like the one proposed by vestlandspartiet, which might or might not lead us into the future.

that is my take on this case.

Again, why do you think the people of Oslo wants this? I can't name a single person I know i Oslo who thinks this is OK. Western Norway is responsible for 80 % of the economy? Where do get that from, and if it's true, have you contributed to those 80 %? I know A LOT of people from Oslo and Eastern Norway who works 2 weeks off and, 2 weeks on in the north sea at oil rigs and tankers, hell, both of my uncles have worked in the offshore business as long as I can remember. You are the guy who threats everyone is Oslo as a big cry baby who doesn't care about anything but themselves. You are the one being ignorant. Oslo is the capitol and the biggest city in Norway whether you like it or not, get over it.

Why are gas plants ruled out, there are hundreds of them offshore, why shouldn't they be used onshore, why the hypocrisy, are people daft enough to believe that Norway not using gas is going to save the environment or is setting a good example?

I personally don't care, but politically it's still way too controversial. I have my theories though... because most of that gas goes to Europe elsewhere and Britain, that could be one reason politicians are not willing to use it. But use the environment as a coverup for the reason.

If powerlines are so ugly, how can you guys accept the huge bridge :nuts:

Nah... Some architect designed masts would do the trick easily. Personally i love the way powerlines cut trough nature like in on the Aurland road, in fact i think it's sad that hydropowerstations with visible tubes are replaced by tunnels to...

Example of a less rigid design for power mast:
http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2009/03/high-voltage-transmisison-line-towers-by-arphenotype-perpective.jpg

^^ I see a couple of problems with that design, one it's going to have to be built very strong so it doesn't suffer from wind, it looks like a sail, two it's going to be very expensive. Just bite the bullet and build a gas plant.

Norwegians are the ultimate hypocrites when it comes to the environment. It's like the cost of cars, we pay through the nose for them because the govt thinks less Norwegians driving is going to save the environment, they tend to forget that the Chinese buy more new cars in a week then Norwegians buy in several years and that the old shitty cars which Norwegians are forced into owning because they can't afford decent new cars are not as safe and environmentally friendly as new cars.

Why are gas plants ruled out, there are hundreds of them offshore, why shouldn't they be used onshore, why the hypocrisy, are people daft enough to believe that Norway not using gas is going to save the environment or is setting a good example?

I'm inclined to agree. Not an expert on gas plants, but my guess is that it could be a better solution. Only problem is that gas power plants are politically incorrect because of the emissions. But if we build a gas plant in the Bergen area it would mean that we can export more hydroelectricity to the continent instead. This could replace power plants with worse emissions on the continent.

Another solution was proposed by economist Steinar Strøm:
http://www.tu.no/energi/article252657.ece

Again, why do you think the people of Oslo wants this? I can't name a single person I know i Oslo who thinks this is OK. Western Norway is responsible for 80 % of the economy? Where do get that from, and if it's true, have you contributed to those 80 %? I know A LOT of people from Oslo and Eastern Norway who works 2 weeks off and, 2 weeks on in the north sea at oil rigs and tankers, hell, both of my uncles have worked in the offshore business as long as I can remember. You are the guy who threats everyone is Oslo as a big cry baby who doesn't care about anything but themselves. You are the one being ignorant. Oslo is the capitol and the biggest city in Norway whether you like it or not, get over it.

who the heck are you? i have to say i kinda suspect these two users who have come from nowhere only to attack me are made by already existing users on this board.. hmm.

i dont care about who you know, its totally irrelevant to the case. i have a friend in africa who is rich - that means all africans are rich, right? :nuts: what are you, 5? get real!

no one is denying the fact that, unfortunately, today oslo is the city which represents this country. stop putting words in my mouth.

Oslo has among other things size, diversity, connectivity, Norways most famous museums, park and sport arenas, and capital status on is side. Why do you feel Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger would represent Norway better? Ofcourse I have been outside Oslo. I have lived in several cities in Norway and abroad. I have lived in Bergen for 7 years (longer than I have lived in Oslo).


The powerlines has to do with Bergen and not Oslo. And probably conterary to your belief no city in Norway creates more value than Oslo. http://www.ssb.no/fnr/

Yes, i think you seem ignorant in this thread. No offence.

size, yes. diversity - sure, but this will be the case for all "big" norwegian cities in the future. "park" :lol: youre right about that one (i love how you didn't make the word plural) museums can be moved and there is no reason for them to be placed in oslo. sports arenas.. yeah, thats definitely a good reason to grant a city capital status :nuts:

i feel bergen, trondheim and stavanger would do a better job at representing norway due to the shear beauty and uniqueness of the cities. norway is a country blessed with gorgeous nature - this is our trademark. certain places in this country you feel like youre in a fairy tale - no, im not talking about that area outside oslo S. compared to european standards, oslo is medicore at best. there is nothing special about the city except for a tremendous crime rate and its a city people tend to forget a few days after theyve gone there. it does in no way fill the criteria i believe is required for being the capital of an idyllic country like norway and its not a city that we, as norwegians, should wanna show off. so why have it as our capital?

in fact, most norwegians have a big dislike for oslo and feel embarrassed whenever they find out that oslo has been the city of choice for tourists visiting norway. such an amazing country deserves a great city for a capital, and, quite unfortunately, oslo is the opposite of just that.

the reason for those statistics showing that oslo produces more value than other places is because companies from the entire country have their headquarters in Oslo so they can be closer to academic quarters. in reality, oslo is a giant leech to our nations economy.

?

I live in Oslo and know a lot of people here, but your description of the attitude of people from Oslo is something I can't say I recognize. What makes you believe people from Oslo don't give a shit about the rest of the country? To me it seems that most people from Oslo are either:
1) Born + grew up somewhere else in Norway (like myself)
2) Have strong links to another part of Norway through family or partner (visiting regularly)

And money spent on buildings and infrastructure in Oslo is mostly local money. Can you give me a source of data showing that Oslo get's more than it's share of national money?

BTW: Read my reply on the previous page as well if you didn't see it.

statistics prove that the majority of people in oslo definitely weren't born outside the city.. in fact, more norwegians seem to move out of the city than into it. i wonder why?

and to answer your other question. its cases like this one (the power lines in hardanger) and the careless attitude from people in oslo in general which makes me believe that they just don't care. for them, oslo is norway and norway is oslo. the rest, well who cares about the rest? probably a few farms scattered around a hilly countryside, eh? perhaps a couple of fishers speaking with "a dialect" - oh yeah, we´ve all heard that one before! me and others from bergen have also experienced what can only be defined as racism from oslo people :nuts: in fact, my friend from oslo said that when he told the people there that he was going to move to bergen they started calling him things like "fuckin fisherman!" etc.. i would however not be too surprised if this works both ways.. though its things like this case with the powerlines and the distribution of the budgets which creates nonsensical issues like this.

the exact same attitude can be found among muscovites.. people in moscow couldn't care less about areas outside of moscows citylimits. of course, in this case, moscow actually does have a lot to offer and most russians take pride in it being their capital.. but they still hate how the money is distributed, with good reason. i mean, A LOT of russias economy, just like norways, comes from natural resources.. and these are not found in moscow or oslo - believe it or not.

.. this must have come as a real shock to you if this entire time you believed that Oslofjorden was the source of norways oil wealth :lol: no, oslo does not create value - it merely steals it from other parts of the country. im truly sorry i had to be the one to tell you this.


Who are "they"?

How much do you think a a citizen in rural areas should receive compared to a citizen from Oslo?

I think rural vs. urban is a silly argument, but even so you have to take into account how many people it benefits. In this case I'm in favour of spending a lot of tax money on a project mainly benifiting Bergen. I'm certainly open to other solutions since I can see the problem of wires through such a beautiful landscape.

This is so total and utter nonsense that I'm not going to give you much of an answer. Can you start by refering to the source of this 80%-number?

Anyway, you clearly think that the full value of all oil, fish etc from western Norway is created there. This is totally, totally wrong. Look at the budget of e.g. Statoil. To get the oil up they have to spend a _lot_ of money on various goods and services such as steel and concrete for the oil platform, drilling robots, security equipment, instrumets for measuring pressure in the pipes, insurance services for the workers, education for the geologists they're employing .... and the list goes on and on and on. All of this is neccessary for getting the oil up, and is part of the value chain. If you follow the stream of money you'll see that precious little of the value is generated locally. Did you really think that all the produce of western Norway just magically appeard from thin air?

And even if you did, it still wouldn't add up to 80%. Not even remotely close.

Professor and maktekspert Iver B. Neumann.

Here is a link to the news article, which also clearly states that western norway produces 80% of the countries economy. i have also read elsewhere, that only something like 28% is given back to us.

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/lokalt/Professor-hisser-opp-Vestlandet-1130943.html

heck, ill just quote some parts of the article so all you people can finally realize that your amazing world megapolis of oslo is treating the rest of the country like total garbage.

- Utrolig frekt

Ordføreren i Bergen, Gunnar Bakke (Frp), finner kritikken fra Neumann helt ubegripelig, og kaller uttalelsen «utrolig frekk». Slike holdninger skaper ytterligere harme og irritasjon fra hele nasjonen, utenom en liten maktarrogant gruppe i Oslo, skriver han i en e-post til bt.no.
Bakke mener at dette utspillet vil bli oppfattet som en dynamittgubbe i et sankthansbål og skape ytterligere irritasjon og motstand mot Statsnett sine planer om Monstermaster, fra hele norskekysten.
«Bare det å kalle dette for 'gnål fra små grupper i periferien' viser en holdning til den verdiskapende delen av Norge som ligger utenfor hovedstaden som er helt uforståelig.
Vestlandet står for 80 % av den verdiskapende eksporten nasjonen lever av. Verdiskapningen for nasjonen skjer langs kysten, og monstermastene i Hardanger er et eksempel på manglende respekt for meningene til de som bor i regionen og de som skaper verdiene til det beste for hele Norge,» skriver ordføreren.

- Arroganse

BTs politiske kommentator Sjur Holsen synes også at professoren bommer totalt med kritikken.
- Det er litt vanskelig å ta dette alvorlig. Hvis jeg skal prøve, er det først og fremst en tydelig demonstrasjon på det egentlige problemet: Manglende forståelse og utbredt arroganse i toneangivende miljøer i Oslo, sier Holsen.
Han finner grunn til å minne Neumann om at svært mye av verdiene i Norge skapes på Vestlandet. Saken handler uansett ikke om distriktpolitikk, mener Holsen.
- Jeg synes han blander kortene. Striden i Hardanger handler om store, varige naturinngrep og en regjering som ikke i tilstrekkelig grad klarer å forklare hvorfor dette luftspennet er nødvendig, sier BT-kommentatoren.

- Nasjonal sak

Han tror likevel at en del Oslo-folk vil nikke samtykkende til Neumanns argumenter.
- Jeg frykter at de holdningene han gir uttrykk for er nokså ubredt, ikke bare i deler av det akademiske miljøet, men også i sentrale politiske kretser. Men det er også mange, ikke minst i sterke fagmiljøer i hovedstaden, som har tatt til motmæle mot mastene. Dette er ikke bare en vestlandssak, men en nasjonal sak, sier Holsen.

also, check the comments in the article.. we are not happy about this heartless suppression you are putting us through.
later i can link you to an article written by senterpartiet to make you even further aware of this situation.

so basically, the osloarrogance really needs to come to an end and a reversion of this decision could potentially mark the beginning of a better and more fair society.

The Hardanger power lines is a hot topic these days.

It is a line that is needed to secure power supply to Bergen, but at the same time will, in many peoples eyes, ruin one of the most beautiful cultural landscapes in Norway.

The main discussion is not whether the line should be built or not, but if it should be a subsea line or a line above sea level.

The government has handled the case poorly. Many people feel that the subsea solution haven't even been considered. The government says the subsea solution does not give the demanded security for power supply, but everyone knows the only reason why the subsea solution is scrapped, is because it is much more expensive.

The fact that the government don't want an independent study of the possibility for a subsea line, and seems super eager to just get the case finished, has created the feeling about a Oslo based government that don't take to account ideas and suggestions from the area that is touched by the line. This has created a lot of anger.

It's also needed to take to account that the oil and gas sector stand for an significant part of the power demand, and one of the reasons why the line is needed, is because of a possible electrification of the oil platforms. The oil sector earns billions of money, and many people feel that we can afford to use some extra money to save the Hardanger scenery.

In my opinion the subsea line should be built. Building a power line through Hardanger is in my opinion equal to build a power line over for example the Geiranger fjord, which would not even be a topic of discussion.

I would like to give City of Rain some support in his opposition against the power lines. To be opposing this kind of spoiling of some of our most beautiful nature when it is completely unnecessary is the only logical and sensible thing to do. Although, i think he goes to far in putting down Oslo, and the whole "Oslo vs. rest-of the country"-babbling. But back to the arguments for why these power lines, should not be built. KiwiRob has already said it, the keyword is gas power plant, and i want to elaborate on that.

Let's first look at why the Bergen region needs more electric power. The primary reason are in fact not the city of Bergen itself, but the industry plants at the coast, and (the most crazy thing) the governments desire to electrify offshore platforms. Bergen city have had almost no increase of electrical consumption since 1995. Kollsnes, which is a gas terminal, is one of the main reasons for the additional electrical consumption during the same period.

In other words, enormous energy amounts in the form of natural gas are passing through plants such as Kollsnes and Aukra (the gas terminal for Ormen Lange) every day. They require a lot of energy to run, although it would just equal a small fraction of the energy in the gas that they are treating and transporting. BUT, the freaking morons of our left-wing governing politicians say: "No-no, you can't power these plants locally by the gas itself", it therefore must be drawn from "the grid". "The grid" in this case equals ruining a national natural treasure and power from possible coal, gas or nuclear plants in Europe.:ohno:

Is it possible to avoid seeing the sick irony and complete hypocrisy by the same politicians?? We are consuming a lot of energy exporting the gas, so that it can be burned in gas power plants f.ex in Germany (where it is considered "environmental friendly"), only so that we must import the electrical energy back again to be able to run the plants which are needed to send the gas there in the first place. When you deduct the efficiency loss due to the transport of the gas and the electrical power back again, the net "global" energy account (and CO2 emission wise) comes out far worse than if we were to power our gas facilities (and Bergen city for that sake) with locally produced gas.

Only an idiot, or a socialist brainwashed hypocrite politician or climate activist can avoid to see the stupidity of the current political rule. :bash: And that, my dear friends, is why power lines and giant masts in Hardanger is utterly needless, and why there rather should be cables (subsea) from a "local" gas power plant at the coast (i.e Kollsnes or Mongstad) to Bergen City instead. That is, if Bergen still needs more energy after the gas plants are allowed to be powered by using their own gas!

^^ Fantastic post. I think one of the problems in Norway is that whenever the people are given a chance to change the way the country is run and to remove some of these daft rules they continue to vote in Ap, who as far as I can see are an environmentally unfriendly lot who don't really give a shit about the environment, continue to pander to big oil but get confused when it comes to using clean natural resources provided by big oil, bit do anything in there power to stamp out any and every viable option to big oil. I don't believe any sensible decisions will ever be made in this country when you have a clearly confused man as PM and a government which doesn't know who it should be sucking up or what it's agenda is.

Another option is windturbines offshore, there's plenty of places to put them. So there are multiple options if you are prepared to look.

the reason for those statistics showing that oslo produces more value than other places is because companies from the entire country have their headquarters in Oslo so they can be closer to academic quarters.


Are you implying that the full turnover of the companies headquartered in Oslo is added in here? That's not what this statistics show as far as I know. I believe it shows the economical value produced by people working in Oslo, and also the value created by people resident in Oslo (two sets of data).


statistics prove that the majority of people in oslo definitely weren't born outside the city..


I didn't say so either. I said I'm under the impression that most people from Oslo are either from another part of the country or have close family ties to another part of the country.


in fact, more norwegians seem to move out of the city than into it. i wonder why?


Oslo has grown well outside of its municipial borders. A lot of people will move to the outskirts of the urban area (in Akershus), or to satelites (also in Akershus) once they get kids. A lot of people prefer this since it's easier to raise kids there rather than in e.g. Grünerløkka where you have small aparments and cars 2 meters outside your entrance. This accounts for some net emmigration of Norwegians from Oslo anyway.

I doubt Oslo metropolitan area has a net emigration of native Norwegian (haven't done the calculation though).


and to answer your other question. its cases like this one (the power lines in hardanger) and the careless attitude from people in oslo in general which makes me believe that they just don't care. for them, oslo is norway and norway is oslo. the rest, well who cares about the rest? probably a few farms scattered around a hilly countryside, eh? perhaps a couple of fishers speaking with "a dialect" - oh yeah, we´ve all heard that one before! me and others from bergen have also experienced what can only be defined as racism from oslo people :nuts: in fact, my friend from oslo said that when he told the people there that he was going to move to bergen they started calling him things like "fuckin fisherman!" etc.. i would however not be too surprised if this works both ways.. though its things like this case with the powerlines and the distribution of the budgets which creates nonsensical issues like this.


The problem is that you're generalizing. The guy in your link below does not speak for me or Oslo people in general. I think his statement is idiotic.

And I'm not surprised you can come up with anecdotes of people from Oslo talking negatively of people from Bergen. But that does not mean this is representative of Oslo people in general. I've worked with people from all over Norway and I can't remember any case of fellow workers from Oslo slagging the other workers from other parts of the country. Maybe because I work with civilized people.

BTW: It could be argued that your posts in this thread is an evidence that this "works both ways" ;)

BTW2: Please feel free to open the discussion on the distribution of the budget. If Oslo is favoured over Vestlandet I would like to know, since I'm not in favour of this. The only exception to this is the budget posts for national facilities such as the royal palace, governmental buildings, and the running of governmental ministries (Bergen has several national facilities as well (e.g. the university, NHH, TV2), but Oslo has more being the capital city)


.. this must have come as a real shock to you if this entire time you believed that Oslofjorden was the source of norways oil wealth :lol: no, oslo does not create value - it merely steals it from other parts of the country. im truly sorry i had to be the one to tell you this.


Value is more than what we export. And it doesn't need to be value found in nature either. The link to SSB earlier in this thread shows the production of value in the different counties. Look at Luxemburg for instance. They are richer than us. But they are not exporting oil or fish (as far as I know)


Professor and maktekspert Iver B. Neumann.

Here is a link to the news article, which also clearly states that western norway produces 80% of the countries economy. i have also read elsewhere, that only something like 28% is given back to us.

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/lokalt/Professor-hisser-opp-Vestlandet-1130943.html


No.

This article says 80% of the value creating export. This is very different from what you claimed. Your life standard is highly dependent on value created inlands as well (which is not exported). And the value added to produce exported from Vestlandet was not all added there. It was dependent on a large chain of other products and services from elsewhere. Was this taken into consideration?

Still I'm curious to how this number was arrived at. In particular I'm curious to why it refers to value creating export, as opposed to export in general. Is it a calculation of only the export which gets a higher price abroad than inlands (that "value creating" means the export itself is creating value)? Such as electricity and fish, but not e.g. services from Oslo? I could be wrong of course.


heck, ill just quote some parts of the article so all you people can finally realize that your amazing world megapolis of oslo is treating the rest of the country like total garbage.


I still maintain that this has nothing to do with Oslo (except that, in this case, a guy from Oslo expressed his personal view, which I found arrogant). It doesn't prove anything about how Oslo treats the rest of the country. Read the last paragraph again:


- Jeg frykter at de holdningene han gir uttrykk for er nokså ubredt, ikke bare i deler av det akademiske miljøet, men også i sentrale politiske kretser. Men det er også mange, ikke minst i sterke fagmiljøer i hovedstaden, som har tatt til motmæle mot mastene. Dette er ikke bare en vestlandssak, men en nasjonal sak, sier Holsen.

The journalist believes that this perception is shared within political circles (elected by the entire nation). But that many people in "sterke fagmiljøer" in Oslo are against them.

@essenze: Liked your post as well. Kind of what I ment in an earlier post, but much better said :)

link to the news article, which also clearly states that western norway produces 80% of the countries economy. i have also read elsewhere, that only something like 28% is given back to us.

Vestlandet holds 26% of the norwegian population, whats your point?

I don't really feel that we get too little in relation to population here... :nuts:

I wonder how much of those 28% go to Bergen though, HMMM? :P

Oslofolk skaper flest verdier
Folk fra Oslo skaper i snitt over dobbelt så store verdier som folk i resten av landet, viser tall fra Statistisk sentralbyrå.
Nyheter

mandag, 9. august 2010 - 9:01
Tekst:
NTB - redaksjonen@abcnyheter.no .Siste fra forsiden

Statistisk sentralbyrå (SSB) har sammenlignet verdiskapningen i norske fylker, og Oslo troner suverent for toppen.

Hver Oslo-borger skaper nesten 700.000 kroner i gjennomsnitt årlig. Hordalendingene klarer til sammenligning bare å skape verdier for knapt 380.000 årlig.

^^

Beat me to it :)

Here (http://www.aftenposten.no/okonomi/innland/article3761913.ece) is the link to the article in Aftenposten.

http://media.aftenposten.no/archive/01318/_Escenic-ssbtallen_1318976f.jpg

It also explains how the numbers were arrived at:

Verdiskapningen i bedrifter måles ved å ta bedriftenes salgsinntekter og trekke fra varer de selv har kjøpt inn og slitet på investeringer de har gjort.

I offentlige virksomheter beregnes verdiskapningen til å tilsvare lønnen til de ansatte.

^^ This discussion has seriously derailed, here is my contribution to pushing the train further into disaster...


The numbers from SSB on county wise GDP ain't worth shit (last report on the SSB site are with 2007 numbers, BTW):

Public employees are counted by their salary: I.e. the more there are of them, and the more they get paid, the more "efficient" the appear. Good for Oslo who have plenty of the best paid bureaucrats...
Production is assigned to the county where the workplace is located, not where the workers live. Again good for Oslo, who get the production for all of those commuting into the city.
The continental shelf production is not included in the numbers, but distributed evenly all over the country. Needless to say, the continental shelf production is very important for all the coastal counties (from Agder to Finnmark), but not very important for Oslo / Akershus.
A lot of the GNP in the Oslo area comes from the financial sector and firms serving the huge Oslo public sector. These are (unlike Luxembourg) overwhelmingly domestic oriented. Again, the more inefficient these are, the higher "GDP" they produce, but the more drain they are for the rest of the country
Any government spending (highways, opera house, new ministry buildings, you name it) will under this philosophy make the Oslo region more "productive".

Just a few look on the transportation budget of the country, and you will easily see that Oslo/Akershus are highly favoured compared with the rest. I did a study on this some time (years?) ago which I posted in the highway section. Central Norway was the lowest and got only a fraction of what Oslo/Akershus got (per capita!).
There was in 2009 126 000 public workers in Oslo, and thousands of more in other government controlled bodies (NSB, Statkraft, Statnet etc etc)
I think a lot of tension between the regions of this country could have been eased if Norway turned more federalistic, with more powers to the regions, in addition to move more government bodies out of the capital. However, under labor party rule, this won't happen.

Back on topic:

Although I do not know the power line plans in detail, this discussion seems to have blown out of proportions. The protesters keep repeating that the monster masts of 42 m that cross the fjord will ruin the fjord landscape. In reality, only a small side arm will be crossed, only one mast will be 42 m tall, and many of the same people have been arguing hard for a "monster bridge" with 200 m tall towers crossing the whole fjord.

We clearly need more power lines in Norway. I personally had to pay several thousands NOK extra last winter because the network is out of date. This was of course extra irritating because I know that the reason for the undercapacity is that a lot of electric power now goes to the oil facilities of central Norway, earning billions for the central government.... The Hardanger lines won't help us, but I guess they have a similar issue in Bergen.

Although I am not expert, I do not think a sea cable is an easy fix in this case. The fjords are extremely deep, and prone to massive submarine land slides, making a sea cable both expensive, and more importantly, quite risky. Putting a sea cable across the Oslo-fjord or between Denmark and Norway is not comparable.

Neither do I support massive use of natural gas. As long as we have enough power from renewables, we should use them and rather export the gas to markets where it can substitute coal.

^^ You already have massive use of gas in Norway, what do you think powers all the platforms in the North Sea, besides having a few strategically located gas plants close to areas with high demand wouldn't be a big issue as far as I can see. Besides your idea of exporting gas to countries to stop them using coal is naive, countries like China and India will continue to use coal because it's cheap, you couldn't build a pipeline from Norway to either country anyway so Norway should benefit from its own resource.

There are a lot of CO2 sources in Norway and around the world. That does not mean that we should not try to minimize them or, ( as a start) slow their growth.

A couple of small power plants in Norwya are going to make such a minute difference that it's not worth worrying about, especially when the Chinese are commissioning serveral new coal fired plants each month.

There is also no reason why windfarms cannot be built near to Bergen, power lines are not the only solution to the problem, probably not even the cheapest.

^^ This discussion has seriously derailed, here is my contribution to pushing the train further into disaster...

:)

Ooops, I'm making it worse

I didn't mean to gloat with my previous posting because I'm well aware of several shortcomings in numbers like these. The article from Aftenposten smells of more problems than the one you're questioning here.

The reason for debating this was to counter the preposterous claim that western Norway creates 80% of the value in Norway. This is totally wrong, and the article you're questioning (http://www.ssb.no/emner/09/01/fnr/) has plenty of evidence against this claim.

You have some valid points. But saying it's not "worth shit" is a stretch.


Public employees are counted by their salary: I.e. the more there are of them, and the more they get paid, the more "efficient" the appear. Good for Oslo who have plenty of the best paid bureaucrats...


This is true (assuming you mean "the more value they add in this statistics" rather than "efficient").

However, Oslos citizens are not living just from stamping each others documents. If you click into "Tabell 1" in the article, you'll see that national administration ("statsforvaltning") accounted for 13% of Oslos produce (44 out of 341 bn). For Hordaland this number was 8% (12 out of 154 bn). Modify the figure below (from the same article) to correct for Oslos "bureaucratical advantage". Also keep in mind that these bureaucrats are at least to some extent doing work that Norway needs done (meaning they are creating meaningful, but possibly overrated value). (I'm using Hordaland for comparison since this discussion was brought up in a Bergen context).

If you also include municipial administration you'll see that total public administration accounts for 18% of Oslos value production compared to 19% for Hordaland!

http://www.ssb.no/emner/09/01/fnr/fig-2010-03-03-01.gif


Production is assigned to the county where the workplace is located, not where the workers live. Again good for Oslo, who get the production for all of those commuting into the city.


Correct. This is an advantage for Oslo when dividing the work effort in Oslo over only the population of Oslo.

But the source showed the value divided by all the people who work in Oslo as well (in the figure above), which includes commuters.


The continental shelf production is not included in the numbers, but distributed evenly all over the country. Needless to say, the continental shelf production is very important for all the coastal counties (from Agder to Finnmark), but not very important for Oslo / Akershus.


This sounds like a valid point.

I know that the profit from the oil export was not included since it is considered national profit rather than belonging to any particular county. But I assumed the value produced by the workers (basically their salary before taxes) was included, but this is quite possibly wrong.

In that case they would not show up in the dividend of the equation either, so I doubt we're talking very big differences. People working in oil related industry on land (such as e.g workers building oil platforms) are included.



A lot of the GNP in the Oslo area comes from the financial sector and firms serving the huge Oslo public sector. These are (unlike Luxembourg) overwhelmingly domestic oriented. Again, the more inefficient these are, the higher "GNP" they produce, but the more drain they are for the rest of the country


The financial sector accounted for 10% of Oslos value production for 2007. People and companies in Norway needs financial services as well, so it isn't really relevant how domestically oriented it is (and I think "overwhelmingly" is the wrong word, althogh much more domestically oriented than in Luxemburg I'm sure). What sort of huge public need for financial services you are thinking about anyway?


Any government spending (highways, opera house, new ministry buildings, you name it) will under this philosophy make the Oslo region more "productive".


True.

Norway needs these things, and we decided to put a lot of them in Oslo because Oslo is best suited for e.g. new ministry buildings, but public buildings and infrastructure is built in other parts of the county as well. Again, the difference is slight.


Just a few look on the transportation budget of the country, and you will easily see that Oslo/Akershus are highly favoured compared with the rest. I did a study on this some time (years?) ago which I posted in the highway section. Central Norway was the lowest and got only a fraction of what Oslo/Akershus got (per capita!).


I would like to see it. Not that I don't believe it as such, but if other regions are systematically underfunded I would like to know.


There was in 2009 126 000 public workers in Oslo, and thousands of more in other government controlled bodies (NSB, Statkraft, Statnet etc etc)


Read this article (http://www.ssb.no/samfunnsspeilet/utg/200302/03/index.html). I know it's old, but that Oslo is full non-productive bureaucrats is a myth.

Ok, one more reply....

:)
This is true (assuming you mean "the more value they add in this statistics" rather than "efficient").

In my word efficiency=value created/ man years spent
:)
However, Oslos citizens are not living just from stamping each others documents. If you click into "Tabell 1" in the article, you'll see that national administration ("statsforvaltning") accounted for 13% of Oslos produce (44 out of 341 bn). For Hordaland this number was 8% (12 out of 154 bn). Modify the figure below (from the same article) to correct for Oslos "bureaucratical advantage". Also keep in mind that these bureaucrats are at least to some extent doing work that Norway needs done (meaning they are creating meaningful, but possibly overrated value). (I'm using Hordaland for comparison since this discussion was brought up in a Bergen context).

If you also include municipial administration you'll see that total public administration accounts for 18% of Oslos value production compared to 19% for Hordaland!
As the article you linked to further down, the state + state controlled companies accounted for 19 % or so of the work force in Oslo, and 10 % of the workforce in Hordaland in 2001. I seriously doubt this has changed since then. Of course some of this government work is needed (although there are huge savings that can be done), but the question the rest of the country ask is why so much have to be located in the Oslo area, to an increasing degree.

Another point is that in lot of the government bodies, the leadership is placed in Oslo, although they may have employees in other regions. This have a large impact on the private companies strategies (as discussed below), but also means that these institutions make their major decisions from an Oslo perspective.

Remember that quite a lot of the municipal adminstration /work is paid through taxes/ fees to the municipalities. A lot of these are higher outside Oslo. For instance, Oslo still does not have any property tax (I pay 16 000 per year myself)

http://www.ssb.no/emner/09/01/fnr/fig-2010-03-03-01.gif



Correct. This is an advantage for Oslo when dividing the work effort in Oslo over only the population of Oslo.

But the source showed the value divided by all the people who work in Oslo as well (in the figure above), which includes commuters.

Correct, but Oslo share of GDP per capita is then far from "twice the national"


I know that the profit from the oil export was not included since it is considered national profit rather than belonging to any particular county. But I assumed the value produced by the workers (basically their salary before taxes) was included, but this is quite possibly wrong.

In that case they would not show up in the dividend of the equation either, so I doubt we're talking very big differences. People working in oil related industry on land (such as e.g workers building oil platforms) are included.

No, SSB don't do such a detailed split for individual companies. Look at the table of again: http://www.ssb.no/emner/09/01/fnr/

It says that the continental shelf produces 24.7 of the GDP, that is roughly equal to the total GDP of Oslo / Akershus. If you spread that across the counties that actually contribute to the continental shelf production, I am sure the result would look very different.



The financial sector accounted for 10% of Oslos value production for 2007. People and companies in Norway needs financial services as well, so it isn't really relevant how domestically oriented it is (and I think "overwhelmingly" is the wrong word, althogh much more domestically oriented than in Luxemburg I'm sure).

We need a financial sector, the question is if bigger profits means that they produce more value in real terms for the nation. I think not.

I only took Luxemburg into account because someone further up in the thread (don' remember who) almost seemed to think that we were living of a similar financial sector in Norway.

What sort of huge public need for financial services you are thinking about anyway?

I agree that I did not express myself clearly. What I meant was financial sector (of course not always serving the public sector), and all other types of firms serving the government (consultancy, construction firms, equipment providers etc. etc.). With the huge government sector and grey zone between the government and private sector (Norways largest bank, DnBNor is for instance also more or less government controlled), the Norwegian government is a huge customer in almost any part of the private sector. Hence, since this sector is that centralized in Norway, almost all larger companies in the private sector needs a (high ranking) precence in the capital.


Norway needs these things, and we decided to put a lot of them in Oslo because Oslo is best suited for e.g. new ministry buildings, but public buildings and infrastructure is built in other parts of the county as well. Again, the difference is slight.

If you look for instance the construction of new government financed buildings and operating budget of cultural institutions in for instance Oslo, Trondheim and Bergen per capita you will quickly find that that the difference is not "slight". (And please don't come with the argument that a theatre, galllery, museum, or opera built in Oslo are for the whole nation, they are not!)


I would like to see it. Not that I don't believe it as such, but if other regions are systematically underfunded I would like to know.

OK, the only post I was able to find using a quick search was this:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=18999254#post18999254 (post 213). It was only a snap-shot picture, and did not say how the roads actually are financed, but the tendency was clear.
(I don't have time to add all the numbers of NTP, sorry). Add to this that central south eastern Norway gets almost the whole government railway spending of 9 billion NOK (in 2009).

As for the last NTP, almost nothing was promised for central Norway(i.e. Trøndelag), except 125 % toll finance roads...

Read this article (http://www.ssb.no/samfunnsspeilet/utg/200302/03/index.html). I know it's old, but that Oslo is full non-productive bureaucrats is a myth.

See my comment above. Oslo has a much higher (20 %) share of national government and almost-government employees than the next county on the list (Troms at 13 %). Otherwise I think that the municipalities in Norway urgently needs a structural reform, but that is another story. In any case, it is natural that rural districts with decreasing population (and hence older / less productive population) have a larger share of public employees, and this is not neccessarily wrong.

As the article you linked to further down, the state + state controlled companies accounted for 19 % or so of the work force in Oslo, and 10 % of the workforce in Hordaland in 2001. I seriously doubt this has changed since then. Of course some of this government work is needed (although there are huge savings that can be done), but the question the rest of the country ask is why so much have to be located in the Oslo area, to an increasing degree.


Politically this may be problematic, but this debate was about value creation. The value creation is there as far as I can see.


Correct, but Oslo share of GDP per capita is then far from "twice the national"


Yep. And I have slight regrets for posting the link from Aftenposten because I think the numbers looks fishy. I bet the problem you mentioned with people commuting into Oslo is part of the distortion there anyway. And that's probably not all.


No, SSB don't do such a detailed split for individual companies. Look at the table of again: http://www.ssb.no/emner/09/01/fnr/

It says that the continental shelf produces 24.7 of the GDP, that is roughly equal to the total GDP of Oslo / Akershus. If you spread that across the counties that actually contribute to the continental shelf production, I am sure the result would look very different.


I'm deliberatly not opening this can of worms :)

Instead I can try to ask you: Do you think the full profit of the oil and gas outside the cost of Norway should be divided between the counties of western norway? Or alternatively which counties or municipalities?

Mind you, other parts of Norway have significant contributions to the exploration of oil and gas as well, even if they are less dominant than Rogaland and Hordaland. As an example: I had a long conversation with a guy working for Petroleum Geo-Services in Lysaker telling me about what they do there (no, they are not just managing). And there is significant research and development effort put into the various parts and equipment in most of the country. Not to mention massive investments and relevant education payed for by the state (all of us).

That said, western Norway deserves a lot of respect and credit for their effort in the oil and gas industry, but I can't really see us getting anywhere near 80% of the value production of Norway.


We need a financial sector, the question is if bigger profits means that they produce more value in real terms for the nation. I think not.


Can you elaborate? Production of value is production of value, whether we sell it abroad or not (and our financial sector is involved abroad for that matter). The only meaningful definition of value in this context is the competitive cost on the free market. If consumers of financial services would get the same value for less money by buying it abroad, the financial sector in Oslo would be out of business a long time ago.


I only took Luxemburg into account because someone further up in the thread (don' remember who) almost seemed to think that we were living of a similar financial sector in Norway.


It was me. I think it was a relevant example that services can create value as well. I didn't mean to imply that importance of the financial sector in Oslo is like that of Luxembourg.


If you look for instance the construction of new government financed buildings and operating budget of cultural institutions in for instance Oslo, Trondheim and Bergen per capita you will quickly find that that the difference is not "slight". (And please don't come with the argument that a theatre, galllery, museum, or opera built in Oslo are for the whole nation, they are not!)


I'm too lazy to do the full math here, but take the Opera for instance. It costed 4.1 bn. Since Oslo does not get a building like this every year this amonts to 4.1 bn every X years for buildings like this. Let us assume Oslo got a building like that every ten years (which is not the case). This would amount to 410 million a year, compared to 341 bn of value creation a year for Oslo alone. This is about 0.1% of the value creation of Oslo, or 0.02% of the value creation for the country. Now, I'm sure you can find more projects and operating budgets in Oslo to add on to the list, so let's say you can quadrouple that amount.

You're saying that the numbers from SSB are "worth shit" because the number for Oslo was artificially inflated by 0.08%?

But before you get too provoked: I agree that the cost of e.g. the Opera should be kept in mind when other public projects are considered, so that the money spent by the state is fairly well balanced out over the country over time.


OK, the only post I was able to find using a quick search was this:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=18999254#post18999254 (post 213). It was only a snap-shot picture, and did not say how the roads actually are financed, but the tendency was clear.
(I don't have time to add all the numbers of NTP, sorry). Add to this that central south eastern Norway gets almost the whole government railway spending of 9 billion NOK (in 2009).

As for the last NTP, almost nothing was promised for central Norway(i.e. Trøndelag), except 125 % toll finance roads...


I'll look at it later, but for what it's worth I support a proper 4-lane motorway from Steinkjer to somewhere well south of Tronheim with the state paying a significant share :)

grauthue, youre basically just proving that Oslo steals not only money, but also jobs.

perhaps one could say money in the form of jobs? due to the headquarters of the oil sector being located in Oslo, many people from all over the country (including western norway) have to move there in order to get the job they want.

the capital status is really saving oslos ass.. i imagine what the city would be like if things were different.

who the heck are you? i have to say i kinda suspect these two users who have come from nowhere only to attack me are made by already existing users on this board.. hmm.

i dont care about who you know, its totally irrelevant to the case. i have a friend in africa who is rich - that means all africans are rich, right? :nuts: what are you, 5? get real!


Hehe, I've been visiting this site a couple of times now for the last couple of months, and yes I made my profile yesterday after reading your comment. Maybe the people who are just reading the forum found your comment provoking and wanted to make a profile so they could comment on your comment like I did. Ever thought of that? Asking me "who the heck I am" just tell me you are one great person to argue with. Not everyone has 500 + posts on a forum you know? ;)

Of course it's relevant, why shouldn't it be relevant? You are just pushing away what I am saying. You are not even answering my questions, and that African thing, wow, just amazing. Asking me if I am 5, real classic. Seems to me that you're running out of arguments for a dead cause. Like someone else told you here before me, your entitled to have your own opinion about the buildings and architecture in Oslo, but what you are saying about the people living here is just plain wrong. :)

Reading your new comments, you just prove that you are just angry that Oslo is the capitol. That's just strange. "The capital status really saves Oslo's ass". You really think that offshore jobs are the only ones which matters in Norway? Saying that Oslo steals your jobs. You really don't understand how a country works do you? What do you want actually?

I am confused, how did a thread about power lines in Hardanger become a Oslo vs. Bergen thread?

^^ It should not be surprising, this is an internet forum after all :lol:
Politically this may be problematic, but this debate was about value creation. The value creation is there as far as I can see.

Huh, I though the debate was about power lines :lol:





I'm deliberatly not opening this can of worms :)

Instead I can try to ask you: Do you think the full profit of the oil and gas outside the cost of Norway should be divided between the counties of western norway? Or alternatively which counties or municipalities?

Mind you, other parts of Norway have significant contributions to the exploration of oil and gas as well, even if they are less dominant than Rogaland and Hordaland. As an example: I had a long conversation with a guy working for Petroleum Geo-Services in Lysaker telling me about what they do there (no, they are not just managing). And there is significant research and development effort put into the various parts and equipment in most of the country. Not to mention massive investments and relevant education payed for by the state (all of us).

That said, western Norway deserves a lot of respect and credit for their effort in the oil and gas industry, but I can't really see us getting anywhere near 80% of the value production of Norway.

I of course know all of this (I am working in the same sector myself), but what people like "City of Rain" imagine is how life would have been without Oslo. Surely they could still have still purchased all of these services either from Oslo or somewhere else, and still kept the massive profits from the continental shelf. I do not support an independent coastal Norway myself, far from it, in many ways I infact think that the oil / gas has have had a negative impact on our national psyche, and personally I would in fact rather go the other way and integrate stronger with the rest of the Scandinavia / Europe. However, I still often feel quite irritated to see all the money flowing towards the capital capital never to returned, and downright provoked by people like Neumann and that Aftenposten article based on that (in my view) misprepresenting statistics.

Oil and gas production as well as a significant sea food production is BTW also taking place outside central Norway. Although it is another discussion, (perhaps closer to the original power line discussion) I am also quite provoked of having to pay a lot more for electric power than people in south-eastern Norway, when the lack of power is caused by increased oil and gas production sending billions down into the jaws of the national government.....

Can you elaborate? Production of value is production of value, whether we sell it abroad or not (and our financial sector is involved abroad for that matter). The only meaningful definition of value in this context is the competitive cost on the free market. If consumers of financial services would get the same value for less money by buying it abroad, the financial sector in Oslo would be out of business a long time ago.

But the market of financial services in Norway is not entirely free (i.e. in a global market). We have our own currency, partly nationalized banks, and the collaps in Iceland thought us the importance of having a national bank safeguarding our deposits. (Iceland protected their own deposits, but not the ones of the foreigners)


It was me. I think it was a relevant example that services can create value as well. I didn't mean to imply that importance of the financial sector in Oslo is like that of Luxembourg.



I'm too lazy to do the full math here, but take the Opera for instance. It costed 4.1 bn. Since Oslo does not get a building like this every year this amonts to 4.1 bn every X years for buildings like this. Let us assume Oslo got a building like that every ten years (which is not the case). This would amount to 410 million a year, compared to 341 bn of value creation a year for Oslo alone. This is about 0.1% of the value creation of Oslo, or 0.02% of the value creation for the country. Now, I'm sure you can find more projects and operating budgets in Oslo to add on to the list, so let's say you can quadrouple that amount.

You're saying that the numbers from SSB are "worth shit" because the number for Oslo was artificially inflated by 0.08%?

This was not exactly my only argument, was it ? In fact it was not an argument at all (regarding the SSB report). My point was just that any government spending would show up as "value creation" in the report, which I think is very wrong.

Whether or not national government spending in Norway is geographically fair is altogether another discussion. In this discussion culture investments is a small (in terms of money), but very visible part. And yes, Oslo seems to get a building worth multiple billions every ten years or so ( at the least) nowadays, just follow that (so called) National museum debate. The opera in fact costed a lot more than 4 billions since without the Bjørvika tunnel would not have been built so soon. And the buildings themself is only a small part of the public spending. I've heard (on this forum..) that only the opera has something like 700 employees. Since we see overspending in Oslo compared with other regions in almost every public sector, it becomes a significant part of the economy.


But before you get too provoked: I agree that the cost of e.g. the Opera should be kept in mind when other public projects are considered, so that the money spent by the state is fairly well balanced out over the country over time.

Sorry, it seems like I took the bait :) , but now I hope to stop. In practice, though, a fair distribution of national money has turned out to be quite difficult in practice. The only example I can think of where the Oslo area finally had to cut down the level the rest of the country was enjoying is the hospital spending, but only because the numbers were so clear, and only to a lot of political noise.

I'll look at it later, but for what it's worth I support a proper 4-lane motorway from Steinkjer to somewhere well south of Tronheim with the state paying a significant share :)
That would be great, but with the current pace it will probably not happen in my life....

Vestlandet holds 26% of the norwegian population, whats your point?

then i guess Oslo should get something like 13%?

its hilarious how you dont get what my point is..

Hehe, I've been visiting this site a couple of times now for the last couple of months, and yes I made my profile yesterday after reading your comment. Maybe the people who are just reading the forum found your comment provoking and wanted to make a profile so they could comment on your comment like I did. Ever thought of that? Asking me "who the heck I am" just tell me you are one great person to argue with. Not everyone has 500 + posts on a forum you know? ;)

Of course it's relevant, why shouldn't it be relevant? You are just pushing away what I am saying. You are not even answering my questions, and that African thing, wow, just amazing. Asking me if I am 5, real classic. Seems to me that you're running out of arguments for a dead cause. Like someone else told you here before me, your entitled to have your own opinion about the buildings and architecture in Oslo, but what you are saying about the people living here is just plain wrong. :)

Reading your new comments, you just prove that you are just angry that Oslo is the capitol. That's just strange. "The capital status really saves Oslo's ass". You really think that offshore jobs are the only ones which matters in Norway? Saying that Oslo steals your jobs. You really don't understand how a country works do you? What do you want actually?

youve been visiting a city development forum for several months already and dont make an account until someone talks bad about your city :lol: patriotic much? youre just looking for trouble and someone to argue with..

ive already told you my arguments and even given links to prove how valid they are, yet youre trying to argue that somehow Oslo is necessary for norways economy which is strongly based on oil and gas income :nuts: dont tell me im the one fighting for a dead cause.. its fun seeing you try, though.

I of course know all of this (I am working in the same sector myself), but what people like "City of Rain" imagine is how life would have been without Oslo. Surely they could still have still purchased all of these services either from Oslo or somewhere else, and still kept the massive profits from the continental shelf. I do not support an independent coastal Norway myself, far from it, in many ways I infact think that the oil / gas has have had a negative impact on our national psyche, and personally I would in fact rather go the other way and integrate stronger with the rest of the Scandinavia / Europe. However, I still often feel quite irritated to see all the money flowing towards the capital capital never to returned, and downright provoked by people like Neumann and that Aftenposten article based on that (in my view) misprepresenting statistics.

i agree with all this.. in reality we´d be way better off as a country without all the oil.

oh, and did you guys read the news?

http://www.bt.no/nyheter/lokalt/hardangermastene/Sjoekabel-skal-utredes-i-Hardanger-1132900.html

seems like theyre deciding to give a fuck after all, even if this is far outside of the boarders of oslo.. great progress :)

in fact, this sign of progress (where other parts of the country are seemingly starting to matter and become worth something) is far more important than the actual power lines themselves, IMO.

Yes, AP seem to turn now.... IMO, this is quite pathetic and cowardly. When we know that the only reason is because they see how much support they would (and already have) loose. Its like FrPs suddenly change of view on Bybanen in Bergen, when they realized how popular its about to become.
then i guess Oslo should get something like 13%?

its hilarious how you dont get what my point is..

Distribute the money by geographic location?

Yes, AP seem to turn now.... IMO, this is quite pathetic and cowardly. When we know that the only reason is because they see how much support they would (and already have) loose. Its like FrPs suddenly change of view on Bybanen in Bergen, when they realized how popular its about to become.

Distribute the money by geographic location?

what?

how about distributing the money in a way that one city, in this case Oslo, doesnt end up being a giant leech to the rest of the country.

i wonder how much money Oslo could spend on itself without all the oil, gas and fish which come from other parts of the country and has nothing to do with Oslo? itd definitely have to lower its budget quite a bit..

Where is the source saying that Oslo get more than the population (with surroundings) would imply?

Though, I do think that parts of the gouverment/power could be located in Bergen and Trondheim, but not because I think its so unfair moneyvise like it is today, that is totally unrelevant. But simply because I dont really see the problem by share this power in the bigger cities since it obviously would mean much to people living at Vestlandet and Midtlandet and probably (more or less)stop the whining...

well, i remember having looked at it a couple of times on the internet..

but i havent been able to find it recently. could someone help?

im thinking of the distribution of the national budget.

its a known fact that people in oslo get way more per capita than anyone else, and ive read an article about it in the news paper, too, but id like to have it confirmed for you guys.

Yes, AP seem to turn now.... IMO, this is quite pathetic and cowardly.

Stoltenberg has always come across as pathetic and cowardly, I can't see how anyone would ever vote for such a limp dull person as a leader.

I am happy to see some movement, it's a bout time, I'm also happy to see Norwegians being passionate about something, it doesn't happen often.

Because we don't really have domestic problems, people are worried about this Hardangerline. The same with this whining about not getting enough of the pie. Economic separatists in such a rich nation... :ohno:

I don't see why some wires are destroying nature, maybe we should bury the Ulriken Cable car underground, as it destroys Bergen landscape too? I wonder sometimes if protesters have looked at the plans, the route it's passing trough is typical landscape, no particular untouched nature on it's route, it's not even crossing the main Hardangerfjord, just some small arms:
http://www.statnett.no/no/Prosjekter/Sima-Samnanger/

Altough if a tunne(not cable) was chosen due to reliability reasons, there i would agree that it's worth spending some.

It's quite natural that Oslo get's funds for buildings of national importance, since it's the capital. I believe moving the well established institutions far out to western and Northern Norway is stupid, loosing key-competence and forcing passionate workers to be week-end commuters, for what? As for the infrastructure funds we have the main roads and rails passing right trough the city, those are also considered of national importance since there aren't any working alternative routes. It's not like you are funding our T-bane or our schools. It's simple to look at for example Samordna opptaks points for higher education that Oslo is not given loads of funds in this department, way to few spots according to demand, while many domestic colleges can't fill their spots.

well, i remember having looked at it a couple of times on the internet..

but i havent been able to find it recently. could someone help?

im thinking of the distribution of the national budget.

its a known fact that people in oslo get way more per capita than anyone else, and ive read an article about it in the news paper, too, but id like to have it confirmed for you guys.

All this just proves how laughable you are. Fact is, you are making things up and playing on the typical Norwegian "by mot land"-debacle. This fires a Norwegian up more than anything else. To have arguments you need facts, and you haven't shown us one! Your counterparts have.

"But I haven't been able to find it..", "It's a known fact....". Ha! This should be easy to find proof of if it so well known, you are on the info superhighway. Here's my reply to that: maybe it's hard to find because you're playing on myths? Just what is "verdiskapning" anyway? Can it really be measured fairly?

So bring in your "facts" or shut up, idiot!

.

It's quite natural that Oslo get's funds for buildings of national importance, since it's the capital. I believe moving the well established institutions far out to western and Northern Norway is stupid, loosing key-competence and forcing passionate workers to be week-end commuters, for what?

Agreed, a friend has had his government job relocated from Oslo to Strande, the options were no job or move, so the family are selling up and moving to Strande, stupid idea.

All this just proves how laughable you are. Fact is, you are making things up and playing on the typical Norwegian "by mot land"-debacle. This fires a Norwegian up more than anything else. To have arguments you need facts, and you haven't shown us one! Your counterparts have.

"But I haven't been able to find it..", "It's a known fact....". Ha! This should be easy to find proof of if it so well known, you are on the info superhighway. Here's my reply to that: maybe it's hard to find because you're playing on myths? Just what is "verdiskapning" anyway? Can it really be measured fairly?

So bring in your "facts" or shut up, idiot!

Congratulations, you now have the honor of being the least informed person ive ever met.. ive linked you to an article published in a newspaper which states that western norway produces 80% of the economy.. what more do you want?

My last post should have made you realize that youre fighting for a dead cause, so the fact that you keep throwing failed arguments at me just proves that you, for some bizarre reason, have a seemingly strong desire to make an ass out of yourself. you didnt make an account on this forum until you saw the chance to argue with someone, and there are few words which can explain how incredibly pathetic that is.

also, calling me an idiot? yeeah.. youre just not the kind of person to be taken seriously.


It's quite natural that Oslo get's funds for buildings of national importance, since it's the capital. I believe moving the well established institutions far out to western and Northern Norway is stupid, loosing key-competence and forcing passionate workers to be week-end commuters, for what?

so, in other words.. the world should stop evolving as we are so established with the way we live now? thats a totally ridiculous argument.

sometimes we need to sacrifice something (like a few people having to move) in order to achieve a better and more fair society.

besides, im sure many norwegians from other parts of norway than oslo who are now working in oslo because its the only place where that job that theyre so passionate about is available, wouldnt mind moving back to their home cities.

youve been visiting a city development forum for several months already and dont make an account until someone talks bad about your city :lol: patriotic much? youre just looking for trouble and someone to argue with..

ive already told you my arguments and even given links to prove how valid they are, yet youre trying to argue that somehow Oslo is necessary for norways economy which is strongly based on oil and gas income :nuts: dont tell me im the one fighting for a dead cause.. its fun seeing you try, though.


I am not patriotic to Oslo or any other city, I am just sick of people not realizing we are country and with the majority of the population living in the easter parts. No, I just find your comments silly and full of ingnorance. Seriously I don't know what your problems is. You have written almost 3 sides of dead and untrue arguments and you have everyone against you. Of course oil and gas in important to Norway, but what makes you think that only people from the west contribute to continue growth in the offshore business? Almost everything you say is filled with hate against Oslo and it's people. Now I see why you have over 700 posts. In both my post you haven't answered anything. You just use silly smilies all the time...

Ugh, didn't I tell you off in my last post?

I too am sick of people in Oslo not realizing we are a country.. I'm glad we finally agree on something!!

You need to learn the difference between hating and criticizing.. What were your bullshit questions which I didn't answer again? I'm too tired to go back and quote your sorry ass.. I'm sorry if I'm trying to enjoy my holiday in southern france!

Also, I have everyone against me cause they all live in Oslo.. except for Glenn, who apparently enjoys being suppressed.

Did my post get deleted (I can't remember using inappropriate language in that one)?

I made a post asking what this would mean for other parts of Norway with existing and future "Monstermaster". Should they too be replaced with underground cables no matter the cost, and if no, when would the cost be deemed too high?

Congratulations, you now have the honor of being the least informed person ive ever met.. ive linked you to an article published in a newspaper which states that western norway produces 80% of the economy.. what more do you want?

My last post should have made you realize that youre fighting for a dead cause, so the fact that you keep throwing failed arguments at me just proves that you, for some bizarre reason, have a seemingly strong desire to make an ass out of yourself. you didnt make an account on this forum until you saw the chance to argue with someone, and there are few words which can explain how incredibly pathetic that is.

also, calling me an idiot? yeeah.. youre just not the kind of person to be taken seriously.

Yeah, the rest of us should all be in awe cause people like you are lucky enough to be born in the oil and gas-region. What skill does that take? Fact is, the expertise in the oil and gas sector comes from all around the country and abroad. I'm fighting a dead cause?? No, I'm simply saying that this "verdiskapning"-debate is very complictated and not worthy your pathetic sideshow where you just demonize Oslo.

And I registered on this site almost a year ago, first and foremost to follow the Fjordcity project. Just take a look at my posts. Or just keep on massaging your oversized ego even more!

Bergensere :ohno:

I made a post asking what this would mean for other parts of Norway with existing and future "Monstermaster". Should they too be replaced with underground cables no matter the cost, and if no, when would the cost be deemed too high?

You have a point here, regarding the other regions of Norway who really needs more power-cables are just the same landscape as Hardanger, Møre and Northern Norway. Western Norway is as you probably know full of powermasts like any other developed country, and we need more - cause they are maxed out.

^Article about just that in today's VG: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10035408

---
-Mongstad vil redde Bergen
http://www.tu.no/energi/article254973.ece

^^ I agree with Ingeniøren regarding these powerlines.
Where is the source saying that Oslo get more than the population (with surroundings) would imply?

The article grauthue pointed to earlier, showed that Oslo more than a third (53 000) of all national government employees. In addition they had a very large share of the employees in other government controlled institutions:

http://www.ssb.no/samfunnsspeilet/utg/200302/03/fig-2003-05-08-05.gif

Note that the numbers are as a fraction of the employees per county. Per capita the Oslo numbers would be even more inflated. It would be interesting to see total government funding per county, but probably SSB would not dare to publish such numbers...

It's quite natural that Oslo get's funds for buildings of national importance, since it's the capital.

Why, personally I have as much use of grand buildings in Stockholm as in Oslo. Theatres, museums, and operas in Oslo is used almost exclusively by people in the Oslo region. There is simply no such thing as a theatre of "national importance" IMO. Why should not other region have the same degree of funding per capita basis?


I believe moving the well established institutions far out to western and Northern Norway is stupid, loosing key-competence and forcing passionate workers to be week-end commuters, for what?

Depends on what you mean with "far-out". Most of the (very few) relocations have been to other cities, and quite often it is easier to get key personel in other cities than Oslo. For instance, it is far easier to get good engineers/technologists in Trondheim than Oslo, and the same is probably the case in Bergen regarding economists. Hence, getting key personel in Oslo is often quite expensive, and the turn-over is typically higher. As far as I know, the majority of the relocations have been quite successful. In any case, far more people are currently commuting into than out of Oslo, I don't see why it would be wrong to try to balance the equation a little bit.



As for the infrastructure funds we have the main roads and rails passing right trough the city, those are also considered of national importance since there aren't any working alternative routes. It's not like you are funding our T-bane or our schools.

This is an often-heard argument, but it is wrong. Almost all the transport infrastructure (and investments) serves local traffic. And there are alternative routes (which are not invested in). Regarding the subway and other public transport, the national government has large involvement in the investment part. As for local train transportation, a service almost exclusive to the Oslo area and surroundings, that is financed entirely by the national government.


It's simple to look at for example Samordna opptaks points for higher education that Oslo is not given loads of funds in this department, way to few spots according to demand, while many domestic colleges can't fill their spots.
I don't really see the relevance. In any case, the difference is really between cities and small towns, and not between regions. Unlike Oslo, the college in Sør-Trøndelag (Trondheim) does not have a single available spot http://www.samordnaopptak.no/studier/restetorg/ . And the the Oslo college gets 25% higher funding per student than Trondheim.....
Agreed, a friend has had his government job relocated from Oslo to Strande, the options were no job or move, so the family are selling up and moving to Strande, stupid idea.
A lot of jobs are relocated to Oslo all the time, I don't see why it should be harder to move the other way. But where the heck is Strande? (Do you mean Stranda?)
I am not patriotic to Oslo or any other city, I am just sick of people not realizing we are country and with the majority of the population living in the easter parts. No, I just find your comments silly and full of ingnorance.......... <bla bla>.
Before you accuse other people of ignorance you better get your facts right. As of April 1st, 2010, Østlandet (Østfold, Akershus, Oslo, Hedmark, Oppland, Buskerud, Vestfold, and Telemark) had less than 50 % of the population. Even less lived in the Oslo-area, of course. Irrespective of this, the only thing I argue is that government funding should be more in proportioan to the population of a district. Of course, City of Rain could have chosen to argue in a slightly more eloquent way....

Yeah, the rest of us should all be in awe cause people like you are lucky enough to be born in the oil and gas-region. What skill does that take? Fact is, the expertise in the oil and gas sector comes from all around the country and abroad. I'm fighting a dead cause?? No, I'm simply saying that this "verdiskapning"-debate is very complictated and not worthy your pathetic sideshow where you just demonize Oslo.

And I registered on this site almost a year ago, first and foremost to follow the Fjordcity project. Just take a look at my posts. Or just keep on massaging your oversized ego even more!

youve totally misunderstood me.. if you look at my posts in this thread, youll find that ive used the word "fair" quite many times.. this is because what i want is a fair society. surely, we are one country and therefore our budget must be distributed fairly all over the country.

im not saying that the fact that western norway produces 80% of the economy means that we should actually GET those 80%.. im just using it as an argument as to why we really SHOULD NOT accept being suppressed like this and why Oslo should not get to run off with all the money.

in reality, all i want is for the money to be distributed fairly. i dont want to be oslos fuckin colony.

Bergensere :ohno:

now with this post youve managed to reach a new low.. even for this thread.

54°26′S 3°24′E, good post. i dont know where you live, but if its in oslo, then you surely seem like a bigger man than the rest of the oslo-people on here.

Before you accuse other people of ignorance you better get your facts right. As of April 1st, 2010, Østlandet (Østfold, Akershus, Oslo, Hedmark, Oppland, Buskerud, Vestfold, and Telemark) had less than 50 % of the population.

With a very small margin though;)

First quarter this year, Østlandet only needed 975 more people to tip over 50% of the population. Østlandet had 50.26% of the populationgrowth that quarter, or 40 persons more than half the growth. I don't know if that is the general trend, but if it is, we only need 6 1/2 years to get more populous than the rest of the country combined:cheers: I'm from Sørlandet myself btw, where I've spent 2/3 of my life. And I won't take part of any Oslo vs rest debate. In general these types of debates shows alot of ignorance and unnecessary hate.

edit: okay just one Q to city of rain: why do you think you are a colony of Oslo, when those who deside over this country are elected from all over then country to our Storting? Especially since Oslovoters(and Vestfold voters iirc) has the least to say!

I for one would not mind one bit if more public institutions were moved out of Oslo. Hopefully, the so-called cultural elite would follow, and Oslo would be a much better place:D

edit: okay just one Q to city of rain: why do you think you are a colony of Oslo, when those who deside over this country are elected from all over then country to our Storting? Especially since Oslovoters(and Vestfold voters iirc) has the least to say!

why do they have the least to say? please, not this "oslo/rest of norway" attitude.

i feel like we are a colony because, though we produce all the money, oslo take it. we are being exploited for our natural resources just like a colony.

also, its a common trend that even when a politician from Bergen starts working in Oslo he forgets that there are other cities and places in Norway as well.. its like its contagious :lol:

What he is referring to is that the number of seats for representatives from Oslo in parliament is less than it would be if each single vote was counted equally. There are 17 from Oslo, 15 from Hordaland and 5 from Finnmark to give you some examples.

yeah, that still makes oslos opinions more powerful.. and when everything is centralized around oslo like it is today, the skjevfordeling is bound to continue.

why do they have the least to say? please, not this "oslo/rest of norway" attitude.

Simply because the number of votes per storting-politician from Oslo is greater than other counties. For example: there are 34500 people per politician in Oslo, 33000 in Vestfold, 31800 Hordaland, and 14500 in Finmark.

The storting and goverment could move to Bergen for all I care. Then we wouldn't have this stupid debate. Oslo would manage just fine anyway:)

so, you think oslo would be just as wealthy without the money produced from oil and gas in western norway?

Jeez, you base everything you say on assumptions. Where is the numbers? (money, dont public workers)

just answer my question :)

There seems to be two different arguments going on here and I think it would make sense to distinguish one from the other as they seem to have become somewhat muddled together.
1. Who creates the wealth?
2. Are resources at state level distributed equitably across the country?

The answer to the second one will be heavily influenced by differing perspectives on what is equitable and I think its best to leave it for the time being.

The first one also has no single answer but I'll try if I might to put some things in perspective. You stated originally that the west country produces 80% of the economy, presumably you mean GDP? Note, however, that the article you quoted refers to export earnings. We have no idea how the mayor arrived at that figure, so we will just have to take his word for it. Most of those export earnings are from the oil and gas sector, as you know. However, most people in Norway, whether they are in Oslo or Bergen or anywhere else, work mainly in service sectors. The oil and gas sector employs relatively few people and do not hire exclusively in western Norway, nor exclusively Norwegians for that matter. I think somebody else mentioned this before.

So if you identify this sector as the only meaningful wealth creating sector, then 19 out of 20 Norwegians are in your definition leeching. However, you will come to a much more comfortable conclusion if you consider all economic activity, including those that produce intangible goods and generate no export earning, as equally valid modes of wealth creation. Frankly, I see no reason why they shouldn't be. They generate tax income for the state and they create employment for the people.

We should build small local nuclear reactors so that we never see a big powerline again! ;)

Design for the icelandic high voltage electrical pylons.
http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/9/view/11155/choi-shine-architects-the-land-of-giants.html

You stated originally that the west country produces 80% of the economy, presumably you mean GDP? Note, however, that the article you quoted refers to export earnings.

Been digging a bit. The best number I can up with is that western Norway (Rogaland, Hordaland, Sogn og Fjordane, Møre og Romsdal) is behind 39.1% (http://www.ssb.no/emner/09/05/muh/tab21-01.shtml) of our exports for the first half of 2010.

But as stated: This is export.

For the value creation in total we have to revert to the same reference (http://www.ssb.no/emner/09/01/fnr/) as above, where western Norway adds up to 20.0%, but this does not include the value production in "kontinentalsokkelen" itself which is 24.7%. This is seens as national value rather than belonging to a specific county. If you did assign it to the nearest county, then not all of it would belong to western Norway since Agder, Trøndelag and northern Norway also has some fields closest to it, so the total number then I don't know.

Meaning that western Norway deserves respect and gratitude, but 80% looks like a fantasy number to me.

EDIT: STOP THE PRESS! In fairness to western Norway, this is "tradisjonell eksport" which seems to exclude oil, gas and ships. In that case we're talking about considerably higher numbers. In that case I end up with about 70% for western Norway (most likely a bit less, but hopeless to compute exactly. Need a proper reference).

Note that the numbers are as a fraction of the employees per county. Per capita the Oslo numbers would be even more inflated. It would be interesting to see total government funding per county, but probably SSB would not dare to publish such numbers...


Interesting yes, but then we would get arguments like:
"It's only fair that Oslo gets the Opera since this and that county received such and such through agricultural subsidies".
That would be silly.

I think the only fair thing would be to balance out money on e.g. transport infrastructure isolated without weighing it up against agricultural subsidies. I don't mind if other parts of the country receive agricultural subsidies. Nor do I feel bad that Oslo receives more for state administration, although it could be wise with more state institutions outside Oslo.

so, you think oslo would be just as wealthy without the money produced from oil and gas in western norway?

that is not what I said. I said I think we would do just as well without the Storting and goverment located in Oslo. btw, as mentioned before by others, oil and gas is not produced in western Norway. My father, for example, worked at Ekofisk for many years when I was young. The operator there is(atleast was) American. Both my father and I are from Sørlandet. There are btw lots of oil-service companies located in Oslo, like PGS. Alot of Aker's oil-services is also located in Oslo, a couple of friends of mine for example, works there. My father still workes in the oil-industry, also for Aker...not in western Norway

Yeah - companies are literally forced to move to Oslo cause they need to be close to insitutions which are exclusive to the capital. This way western norway misses out on tons of jobs and money which they are deserving of (as western norway is the reason for those jobs even existing), and Oslo comes from it looking great with a huge GDP.. While in reality it's one giant hole which soo much of norways economy is thrown into instead of being distributed evenly all over the country.. I'm gonna pull a kiwibob and say that Norways a failed state at many points.

Western Norway is not the reason for those jobs existing! If anything, eastern Norway is the reason, as the people that negotiated the border between Norway and its neighbours in the North Sea lived in Oslo!

I doubt there are many companies that moves to Oslo because they have to be close to public institutions. I don't say they don't exist. But a majority of companies are started and developed by creative and hardworking people, here as everywhere else. One of the reason many companies find it benefitial to start here is that Oslo area offers a huge, diverse and educated workforce. Take the company I work in as an example. A software engineering company that could be located anywhere if it wasnt for the fact that the combination of people with different skills we need isn't found anwhere else in Norway. Not in a large enough amount anyway.

Anyway, have a good weekend. As I am a father of a young boy, I'm not sure when I have time to look at this thread again.

This thread is really infantile, but I just want to point out a couple of things.

First of all, Norway's wealth is primarly based upon our natural resources. These resources belongs to the whole country. Noone can claim they have invented these resources, and noone are "producing" these resources. We (Norway) are extracting, refining and selling. That's all. The resources are correctly, not to be found in the ground under Oslo, but you don't find much oil and gas at "Fisketorget" either. These are facts.

Second. The discussion about value production. Can it be messured, and how do we define it? Too many idiots thinks they have the answers to this, in this forum, in the media, and SSB.
Some like to talk about Oslo that we are just moving papers and cutting each others hair. No industry or real value production. Trond Giske said that he would like to see people eatiing stocks.. :nuts:

Well, I heard a wise guy a couple of days ago on the radio. He had a simple counter question, he would like to see if people in western Norway could live of producing saxes to each other (or sell oil to each other if you will). If people don't understand the complexity of a modern society, they should really shut up in discussions like this :ohno:
Who is producing the values in Norway? So Oslo is just moving paper??? You can find people moving paper at oil platforms also. Are they producing value? How about the people washing, or the chef on the platform. In the end, maybe it is just the fat guy stearing the drill??? The debate is really insane!

Third. The distribution of money and jobs. I think the money should be distributed where it is needed most, and the jobs placed where it is most suitable. As far as I can see, this is also how it works today. Some adjustments would be great though. Less on infrastructure in the districts, and more to mainroads and areas with high population. Some jobs could perhaps be moved out of Oslo, and other perhaps should be moved to Oslo. All in all I think it is distributed fairly today.

Oh, and the power lines... Of course they should be built.

I'm really in doubt wheter I should post the following link because this has the potential to create an even more heated debate :runaway:

Anyway, I want to point out that I haven't gone through it properly, and I do not in anyway want to support any piece of it until I've looked more at it. It can be wrong or skewed in many ways. I was googling for data about what we have discussed and this article has a lot of relevant data.

Here goes:


Senterpartiet påstår at byene tapper distriktene, men i 2007 overførte Oslos innbyggere utrolige 24 milliarder kroner til resten av landet via statsbudsjettet. Les det detaljerte regnestykket her.



Bunnlinjen: Oslo tappes netto for omkring 24 milliarder kroner årlig, eller omlag 44.000 kroner pr. innbygger.


Link to the article (http://www.minerva.as/2009/09/09/oslofolk-betaler-regningen/)

Take notice of the debate at the bottom. Seems some valid points have been made there (both ways).

EDIT: I can see that much of the "loss" for Oslo is due to progressive taxation on income, which I support.

What's up with everyone saying different things..

Here's another article for our debate..

http://www.sentrumsalliansen.no/f/536_mer-til-vestlandet-gjennom-rettferdig-fordeling.pdf

welcome to politics. what did you expect, everybody agreeing? Statistics can be computed in many different ways. That's why you shouldnt take one single source, which doesnt even explain its methodology and act as if the discussion is settled. Of course people say different things.

One is a careful treatise listing sources for its numbers and concluding* based on numbers you can see how he got, the other is a call to arms for a political party trying to capitalize on a myth of Oslo (and note that it mentions Oslo spesifically several times) leeching on Vestlandet. They give no sources, list an incomplete set of numbers; often substituting hard facts for generalizations, uses strongly non-neutral language and conspicuously avoids mention of the vast body of statistics going against their claim (such as SSB).

Not exactly a fair comparison.

*"Omfordeling" or redistribution of wealth is quite usual in Norwegian political thinking, and usually the question is to what degree it should take place, not if it should take place. I am aware Minerva is a political organization, but his numbers are there for all to see. His conclusions and insinuations on policy change are his own.

You need to learn the difference between hating and criticizing.. What were your bullshit questions which I didn't answer again? I'm too tired to go back and quote your sorry ass.. I'm sorry if I'm trying to enjoy my holiday in southern france!

Pot, meet kettle. Golly wish you could say that about some of my posts, as I have always said I don't hate Norway, I like it, it's just full of inconsistencies which I like to criticise.

Also, I have everyone against me cause they all live in Oslo.. except for Glenn, who apparently enjoys being suppressed.

I don't live in Oslo, I don't think I could, it's a dull boring city with way to many immigrants.

Now why don't we get back on topic.

You have a point here, regarding the other regions of Norway who really needs more power-cables are just the same landscape as Hardanger, Møre and Northern Norway. Western Norway is as you probably know full of powermasts like any other developed country, and we need more - cause they are maxed out.

Instead of building more power lines just build more generation capacity closer to the areas which require it, build underground hydro stations which don't require dams, install windmills offshore, wave generators, build small gas plants, build methane power stations on garbage dumps, there are many and varied alternatives to building HT lines all over the country, all you have to do is think outside the box.

EDIT: STOP THE PRESS! In fairness to western Norway, this is "tradisjonell eksport" which seems to exclude oil, gas and ships. In that case we're talking about considerably higher numbers. In that case I end up with about 70% for western Norway (most likely a bit less, but hopeless to compute exactly. Need a proper reference).

Shipbuilding has taken a hammering, a lot of Norwegian yards have nothing to build next year, I think something like 19 out of 27 yards have empty books. What I find interesting is that there is hardly a Norwegian blue collar worker left in many yards, most yard workers are on contract from Poland, Romania, Croatia. Most ships now built in Norway aren't really built in Norway, they are fitted out here, most hulls now come from Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Romania, the last major vessel built in Norway was the World, it's a shame, a ship of that type will never be constructed in Norway again.

Pot, meet kettle. Golly wish you could say that about some of my posts, as I have always said I don't hate Norway, I like it, it's just full of inconsistencies which I like to criticise.

The problem with you is that you do nothing but criticize. Not once have I heard you say anything good about Norway and you make it seem like you're stuck here cuz of your wife and you absolutely hate it.

I don't live in Oslo, I don't think I could, it's a dull boring city with way to many immigrants.

Now why don't we get back on topic.

Yeah, but you haven't really said anything against me in this thread anyway, have you? What I meant was that everyone who are against me in this thread are from Oslo.

I haven't said anything against you in this thread because I agree with some of what you have said, not all of what you have said but some, plus I don't really give a crap about the Oslo v the rest of Norway debate, we have the same deal in NZ with provincial people not liking Aucklanders, now I've been on both sides of the major city v everywhere else divide.

There are lots of things I like about Norway but what's is the point in discussing something I like, it's far more interesting discussing things which I thing are fucked up and need improving. There is a lot of stuff in Norway that could do with improvement, the problem is people don't take kindly to criticism, especially when they are like the majority of Norwegians who don't think there is anything wrong with Norway and that the country is perfect.

Are you kidding?

From my experience Norwegians are some of the biggest whiners ever.. Don't you read the comments under news articles? May I ask, and not in a mean way, do you even speak Norwegian? People here whine a lot..

But it's a whole different story when someone comes from another country and talks shit about our country :lol: especially when you're spamming up this board doing it..

Foreigners who live here, work here (not NAV clients), and by then contribute to the community, has as much right to whine as you and me... But yes, norwegians are supposed to be world champions in complaining. I dont think anyone thinks everything is perfect in this country kiwi, but not everyone feel they have to express it all the time.

Of course, but it's more provoking when someone comes from another country and starts talking shit and saying it's much better where they come from.. Makes you want to tell them to go home!

Kiwibob, you might not think it's very interesting to discuss positive things, but it's just as uninteresting for us to read all of your negative posts..

Would you like me to start a thread about what I like about Norway, would that make you feel better, give you a warm glow inside. As for my negative posts people respond to them, some folks even agree with what I have to say, so for you to say they are uninteresting is just not true.

BTW I do speak a bit of Norwegian, not fluent by any means but enough to know that most people mainly whine about the weather and football, the weather you can't fix, football Norway isn't that good at it despite having some excellent players. That's why I am really impressed by the organised complaining about the masts, in my 4 years here it's the first time I think the govt have been moved by popular support to look at changing something, now that the ball is rolling lets complain about the high price of motor vehicles, it's time to remove some of those old dangerous shitty cars from the road, makes you wonder what the fuck is the point of NAF, they are supposed to be a lobby group for motorists.

My gripe against the price of cars should make City of Rain happy since it's the politicians in Oslo against the rest of us, if you live in places like Western Norway a family needs a car or two, in Oslo it's pretty easy to live without a car, I know a few families who do, Oslo public transport is good, so us lot living outside Oslo are being punished for having to use something that is necessary for our daily lives to function efficiently but are stung with stupidly high prices to buy that function. I can't for the life of me see any valid reason for the price of cars to be 50% higher than most EU countries (Finland and Denmark are the exceptions), saying it's for the environment is bullshit, little Norway shouldn't lead the way in this respect, they sell more new cars in a week in China that are sold in Norway in a year.

Which leads back to the original point of this thread why not look into some of the vast array of alternatives to putting bloody big pylons up all over Norway.

Would you like me to start a thread about what I like about Norway, would that make you feel better, give you a warm glow inside. As for my negative posts people respond to them, some folks even agree with what I have to say, so for you to say they are uninteresting is just not true.

No, but if you could try to hold back the next few times you get the urge to rant about Norway, it'd make you seem like less of a stuck up ass. In fact, most of the posts in your threads, except for this one, are about what an annoying prick you are

BTW I do speak a bit of Norwegian, not fluent by any means but enough to know that most people mainly whine about the weather and football, the weather you can't fix, football Norway isn't that good at it despite having some excellent players. That's why I am really impressed by the organised complaining about the masts, in my 4 years here it's the first time I think the govt have been moved by popular support to look at changing something, now that the ball is rolling lets complain about the high price of motor vehicles, it's time to remove some of those old dangerous shitty cars from the road, makes you wonder what the fuck is the point of NAF, they are supposed to be a lobby group for motorists

Actually, if you read the comments under news articles, you'll find that it seems like no matter what the politicians do, people will seem unhappy about it.


My gripe against the price of cars should make City of Rain happy since it's the politicians in Oslo against the rest of us, if you live in places like Western Norway a family needs a car or two, in Oslo it's pretty easy to live without a car, I know a few families who do, Oslo public transport is good, so us lot living outside Oslo are being punished for having to use something that is necessary for our daily lives to function efficiently but are stung with stupidly high prices to buy that function. I can't for the life of me see any valid reason for the price of cars to be 50% higher than most EU countries (Finland and Denmark are the exceptions), saying it's for the environment is bullshit, little Norway shouldn't lead the way in this respect, they sell more new cars in a week in China that are sold in Norway in a year.

I would never disagree with something just cause everyone other than people living in Oslo do.. But sure, the car prices in Norway are extremely high and I'd like to see them lowered. What's worse is that it's cheaper to buy a car in eastern Norway..

No, but if you could try to hold back the next few times you get the urge to rant about Oslo, it'd make you seem like less of a stuck up ass.

Actually, if you read the comments under news articles, you'll find that it seems like no matter what the politicians do, people will seem unhappy about it.


Sorry but I just had to do this:)
I also like the second paragraph. By the way, werent you the one telling people off for calling names? now you are calling people annoying pricks

So, no ranting on this board then? :nuts: my point is that ranting in the only thing he does.. I can't remember having criticized Oslo before this thread was created.. Which is weird, as the city is in so many ways made to be criticized..

I said most of the posts in his threads are usually about him being an annoying prick.. Why are you so out to get me anyway? Did I become your instant enemy once I said something bad about Oslo? What's your age again?

Very much a case of pot meet kettle.

Don't wanna go into whether yes or no but this old proposal for Iceland is amazing:

http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/9/view/11155/choi-shine-architects-the-land-of-giants.html

Edit: This proposal for Motala in Sweden is great too:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5382/100114164740.jpg http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/388/100114164735.jpg http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/435/100114164729.jpg

^^ posted it two pages back. ;)

I think many of the Balsfjord proposals are pretty nice, especially:

16:
http://www.statnett.no/Documents/Om_Statnett/Forskning%20og%20innovasjon/Skulpturmast/Forslagene/Forslagene/016%20Velkommen%20til%20nordkalotten%20kj%C3%A6re.pdf

20:
http://www.statnett.no/Documents/Om_Statnett/Forskning%20og%20innovasjon/Skulpturmast/Forslagene/Forslagene/020%20Korpfj%C3%A4drar.pdf

24:
http://www.statnett.no/Documents/Om_Statnett/Forskning%20og%20innovasjon/Skulpturmast/Forslagene/Forslagene/024%20Speilveggen.pdf

25:
http://www.statnett.no/Documents/Om_Statnett/Forskning%20og%20innovasjon/Skulpturmast/Forslagene/Forslagene/025%20AURORA%20BOREALIS.pdf

45:
http://www.statnett.no/Documents/Om_Statnett/Forskning%20og%20innovasjon/Skulpturmast/Forslagene/Forslagene/045%20Spenningsfelt.pdf

^^ posted it two pages back. ;)

Ooops! Missed that completly sorry! :)

They look interesting but still don't get around the fact that they are just prettier version of ugly power lines, you can't make the lines look any better.

What if you made them practical ?:P Like a walkway spanning with the masts too, or hell even cable cars , that WOULD be cool. :banana:

I also think theyll still be ugly, even if they're green.. It's kinda cool that they glow in the dark, though..

I agree with Glenn.. If they had cable cars I'd probably be for it :lol: imagine the view! Then it'd attract even MORE tourists!

I wonder what the reaction from people would be like if Jens introduced power lines with cable cars in hardanger.. haha

You didn't find one proposal you like among all 56? :ohno: You are hard to please!

Ah, no I didn't look at them.. I was only talking about the green ones posted by boscorelli and trondheimr. I'll get to it once I'm not surfing the web from gardemoen using my phone :lol:

Instead of building more power lines just build more generation capacity closer to the areas which require it, build underground hydro stations which don't require dams, install windmills offshore, wave generators, build small gas plants, build methane power stations on garbage dumps, there are many and varied alternatives to building HT lines all over the country, all you have to do is think outside the box.
Which brings us back to the original points: cost and reliability. If you can make any of these compete with the old school power generator systems, you'll find a large audience. If not, well, then there must be some other reason for justifying the extra cost. In Norway today there are jusually only two reasons that seems to qualify:
1) Carbon
2) Beauty
One is a matter of helping our global civilization survive, the other is a marginal luxury for a small local subgroup.

Funny thing is though; sometimes those two interests collide.

And if you want to bash Norway, bash this: 2) wins. Every time.

^^When it comes to carbon and Norway I think govt policy is a complete crock of shit and hypocritical, I don't see why others should have the benefits of Norway's oil and gas yet Norwegians themselves are severely punished for using. If the Norwegian govt really wants to take a stand on carbon emissions they need to ensure that the oil and gas sold by Norway is used in an environmentally friendly fashion, since they can't why punish the locals, whatever emissions Norway creates directly are so minor it's not even worth worrying about.

^^When it comes to carbon and Norway I think govt policy is a complete crock of shit and hypocritical, I don't see why others should have the benefits of Norway's oil and gas yet Norwegians themselves are severely punished for using. If the Norwegian govt really wants to take a stand on carbon emissions they need to ensure that the oil and gas sold by Norway is used in an environmentally friendly fashion, since they can't why punish the locals, whatever emissions Norway creates directly are so minor it's not even worth worrying about.
Yes and no. Several scenarios:

1. Norway use its hydroelectric power internally and sells gas abroad. Power consumption here is relatively clean and the offset abroad is made up by burning (Norwegian) gas there. No net gain in total emissions. This is what our lying sack of shit government is trying to argue is "green" today.

2. Norway use the grid and allow producers to sell where its needed. Higher prices internally (and thus unpopular), but more economically optimal and should the govnt introduce incentives to make further green power available, the added power will lower the price (and thus increase consumption (and waste)) but overall will probably lower the demand for fossil. It makes sense to invest in green in Norway (as opposed to where the gas might be burned) because thats where the incentives are.

3. Norway integrates with the rest of Europe (we have already integrated at least part of the power grid afaik. This new power line to Bergen will be a small part of that larger project) and everywhere on the power grid is introduced to a (preferably global) cap-and-trade or similar measure making fossil fuel as expensive or more so than green power. This would radically boost commercial interest, but it would come at the price of an economic slowdown and be deeply unpopular. It would not make more sense to burn the gas here or there except what economics of scale and position of need dictates.

Guess which one I prefer. About the situation more or less today (1)), well, it is said that politics and sausages are better not observed made. Kyoto puts a cap on the carbon emissions that is already exceeded, meaning we need to buy extra permissions for a gas power plant, but gas exported is not covered. So I guess you're looking straight down the sausage grinder on that one. But that should also tell you why gas power is not attractive. Call it hypocracy if you want, but that is reality.

As to electrifying offshore platforms, that might not be as stupid as it souds. Economics of scale means larger power plants can be made more efficient; the small onboard power plants are generally quite wasteful. Offset that is the cost (in both money and pollution) of laying the cable(s), and though I don't know the exact numbers, I do know Troll (mostly gas) was electrified from the start, and that was done on their own accord before it was official policy.

the power lines in Hardanger show that the osloarrogance (yes, thats a real term in norway!!) has reached a new level.. something i find very disturbing.

wow. western norway produces 80% of the countrys economy.. yet we are treated like a colony.

So it's 80% now? Last time you claimed it was 70%. In fact, the three western counties amount to 16.3% of the state's GDP, unless you count the continental shelf (24.7% in 2007 according to SSB). This is about what you would expect, considering that around 20% of the population lives in these counties. I assume you claim that less that 20% (or even less than 16.3%) of the national budget is spent in the western counties. If so, I would like to see you back that up.

Or, do you want more than the 20% to be spent in the western counties? If so, how can you justify that? Do you feel that you are working harder than us? Do you feel that the counties should be given funds based on their land area rather than their population? Also, how is it the governments (or Oslo's) fault that some companies choose to move to Oslo for whatever reason?

I'm all for equality and that no county should be unfairly favored over others. It's funny how people always feel that they are getting less than they "deserve", especially when the people who decide how much you get are located somewhere else. It's the same story in California. People constantly complain and blame everything on "those Sacramento politicians".

well, i always thought it was 70%.. then i read the news article (ive posted it earlier in this thread) and it said 80%. its still so much that you wanna have the region on your side.

id like to see you back up the bullshit firgures you just posted.. at least what i said is found in a news article and there already exist 2 political parties whos main agenda is to get Oslo to stop suppressing western norway.

hell, our ordfører even went out and expressed that he too thinks its a big shame that it has to be this way. acting like the skjevfordeling doesnt exist makes me it hard for me to take you seriously.

sorry if there are a lot of norwegian words used in my posts today.. i had 1,5 hours of sleep.

But you can't have read the article you refer to very well, because the 80% figure is just something the mayor claims. It's not stated as fact in any way, unless you decide to take whatever he says to be the truth.

Vestlandet står for 80 % av den verdiskapende eksporten nasjonen lever av. Verdiskapningen for nasjonen skjer langs kysten, og monstermastene i Hardanger er et eksempel på manglende respekt for meningene til de som bor i regionen og de som skaper verdiene til det beste for hele Norge,» skriver ordføreren.

Well, if we can't believe the mayor then who the hell are we gonna blieve?! :crazy:

Those who say that Oslo is responsible for Norways big economy? :ohno:

Anyhow there certainly isn't created that much value in Hardanger :lol:

well, i always thought it was 70%.. then i read the news article (ive posted it earlier in this thread) and it said 80%. its still so much that you wanna have the region on your side.

id like to see you back up the bullshit firgures you just posted.. at least what i said is found in a news article and there already exist 2 political parties whos main agenda is to get Oslo to stop suppressing western norway.

hell, our ordfører even went out and expressed that he too thinks its a big shame that it has to be this way. acting like the skjevfordeling doesnt exist makes me it hard for me to take you seriously.

sorry if there are a lot of norwegian words used in my posts today.. i had 1,5 hours of sleep.

The numbers I posted are from SSB. See http://www.ssb.no/fnr/ . They are fairly old (2007), but as oil production decreases every year the number cannot possibly have doubled in three years. If you do include the continental shelf, then yes, you are right, funds are being distributed unevenly. But - you simply cannot do that - people come from all over the country to work at the continental shelf. I frequently meet people here in Trondheim who are home for a few weeks before returning to work offshore, for example.

I do want you to take me seriously, and I wish I could agree with you, but I have to say that I feel your complaints are greatly unjust. In fact, I'm a bit offended from the mayors claim that the rest of us just create 20% of the wealth. I guess he's not the first FrP politician to spread populistic lies.

everyones coming to different conclusions.. theres no point in trying to prove anything. in fact, this discussion is quite hopeless. all im saying is that theres a reason for parties like sentrumsalliansen and vestlandspartiet.

could someone find some figures for how much money each county/commune gets PER CAPITA? that would be extremely interesting to see.

everyones coming to different conclusions.. theres no point in trying to prove anything. in fact, this discussion is quite hopeless. all im saying is that theres a reason for parties like sentrumsalliansen and vestlandspartiet.

could someone find some figures for how much money each county/commune gets PER CAPITA? that would be extremely interesting to see.

Well, is it possible that those parties exist because people are greedy and complainy? I would like to see some numbers too, but it might simply be too hard to measure. For instance, if the government builds a new road from Oslo to Bergen, you would have to ask questions like what county benefits more from the new road to say anything about how those funds were distributed over the counties.

You said yourself that Oslo isn't a good looking place, it is a city with tons of problems like traffic jams, crime, etc. How does that fit into your theory?

I said those things because I was trying to make a point.. You see, Oslo being so unimpressive makes it feel even less desirable to keep spending so much money in it. Surely I wouldn't mind as much if Oslo was to Norway what London is to England.. But the truth is that it's not.

The problems in Oslo is not something that can be fixed with money.. If so, I assume you'd spend the money doing that instead or building a superexpensive opera? And I know figures like that exist.. I've even seen it in the newspaper.

It's not because Oslo doesn't have enough money to spend on itself that it's not a good lookin place.. I just hate the idea of buying expensive make-up for a genetically ugly girl. Especially when it costs me most of my salary..

I said those things because I was trying to make a point.. You see, Oslo being so unimpressive makes it feel even less desirable to keep spending so much money in it. Surely I wouldn't mind as much if Oslo was to Norway what London is to England.. But the truth is that it's not.

The problems in Oslo is not something that can be fixed with money.. If so, I assume you'd spend the money doing that instead or building a superexpensive opera? And I know figures like that exist.. I've even seen it in the newspaper.

It's not because Oslo doesn't have enough money to spend on itself that it's not a good lookin place.. I just hate the idea of buying expensive make-up for a genetically ugly girl. Especially when it costs me most of my salary..

Of course those problems can be fixed with money.

Well, it seems like the money are spent on things like the Opera, Munch museum and uh, that huge building they're planning to build by Aker Brygge.. I'm sure there's tons of other things which the money is spent on istead of fixing problems, which is why I don't think it's fair to say that Oslo has problems due to lack of money..

I mean, if this was the case, then all the other cities in Norway would be like chatotic warzones now..

But tell me how money can be spent to fix oslos problems, then? You already have an extensive subway, tramway and bus system. I don't see how many can reduce the crime rate much.

You also got that huge senketunnell in the Oslo fjord.. This was just for aesthic purposes, if I'm bit wrong. So I can't that Oslo is doing a convincing job at spending it's money effictively to reduce it's problems. It's prioritizing other things, so complaining is just stupid.

I wasn't aware of the huge problems we have here in Oslo, luckily you know so much about this city, COR... Think i will stay inside this evening... :ohno:

Seriously tough, Oslo is wonderful - i have no idea what you are talking about!

perchrc was the one who said it has a lot of traffic jams and crime..

i wouldnt know about the traffic in oslo, but i can imagine its quite bad.. but i did mention that there is a lot of crime in the city and denying this only proves ignorance.

oslo has extreme amounts of social issues.. you live in oslo, have you not been to jernbanetorget? during my 3 weeks trip to sweden, denmark, germany, belgium and holland i did not visit anything like the things ive seen in oslo. nothing i saw there came even close (except brüssels had maybe the same amount of beggars as oslo), and quite frankly, it made me quite embarrased.

in oslo people are stabbed down on the street (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/03/08/529171.html), people are robbed (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/03/06/529007.html), often the robberies are armed (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/03/06/528924.html), the employees of shops are abused (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/03/06/528993.html) and the city is also blessed with prostitutes from 40 different countries. (http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/innenriks/3591448.html)

but yeah, you can keep walking around thinking you live in a fabulous city. in fact, why dont you get a huge tatto on your forehead that says "oslo - the oasis of earth. or hell, why not just make a huge banner which says "oslo = utopia" and hang it behind an airplane.

no matter how much you talk about how youre walking outside at night, it wont change the fact that oslo has 4 times as much crime as new york (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/oslo/article2298946.ece).

have you been to other cities in europe? have you ever stepped foot in holland, france or spain? oslo is one of the least impressive capitals on the continent because of these things, and on top of it all this madness is kept alive by money taken from western norway. i honestly cant see where you get your pride from.

i wonder what would need to happen in order for you to realize that no, compared to the european standard, oslo is not wonderful, like you call it. surely you can have your own opinion about that, but thats completely irrelevant and stupid to bring up in this discussion. it will not change this:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/10/04/549173.html

http://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/article2900132.ece

http://www.dagbladet.no/2010/05/08/nyheter/innenriks/kriminalitet/oslo/ungdom/11635372/

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/oslo/article2952337.ece

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/ostlandssendingen/1.6949522

http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/innenriks/politikk/article913280.ece

you can keep pretending to live in this idyllic world filled with happiness as far as the eye can see, but i think itd be smarter to just open your eyes for a second or two.

It is idyllic, Plata phenomenom is awesome. Why should we hide our junkies and beggars like the puny cities in Europe? Yeah, we have crime and trafic. That's part of the game, how can you not love "big" city life? Problem with Oslo, it's too small, and to few immigrants :)

Seriously, the crime-thing bothers me a little, but the pros far outweights the cons of getting a few thefts a year - and it still feels very safe, just not leave your car in a sidestreet during the night and walk your date home etc.

uh. right, i think most people have a different perception of what is an idyllic city.. but sure, each to his own :lol:

its quite sickening to think that youre probably sitting at home and knitting your hands everytime you read in the newspaper about a new murder or a theft, though.. why not find taliban and invite them over instead of killing them? i mean, theyd probably drop bombs over our residential areas killing lots and lots of people! how awesome would that be? :D real big city feeling man!!

dude. no.

what about you other people from oslo? do you love crime and poverty as much as ingeniøren..? maybe its an oslo-thing and i wouldnt get it :lol:

Wouldn't it be nice if you just shut the hell up? It's getting really tedious with your constant rants about how horrible Oslo is, and your personal opinion of Oslo doesn't constitute an argument in any way regarding anything. It's just annoying.

Wouldn't it be nice if you just shut the hell up? It's getting really tedious with your constant rants about how horrible Oslo is, and your personal opinion of Oslo doesn't constitute an argument in any way regarding anything. It's just annoying.

:nuts: defending your big brother? aw.

the reason i linked you to all those links containing facts was to prove that this has nothing to do with my personal opinion. its a fact that oslo has some major problems!

its quite sickening to think that youre probably sitting at home and knitting your hands everytime you read in the newspaper about a new murder or a theft, though..
You talking like Oslo is some kind of European Juarez :nuts:
Oslo absolutely have some social problems, especially when it comes to drugs, but the murder rate is still among the lowest.

New York (7,3)
London (2,25)
Toronto (1,82)
København (1,8)
Oslo (1,67)

http://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/article2960893.ece

Random newspaper clippings aren't facts, but i think we have roughly twice the number of reported "winning crime" for example than the national average per inhabitant. But when it comes to rape/murder and drug abuse, i doubt there is a big difference. I anything the openness of drugabusers around the station keeps Oslopeeps away from it while in smaller towns drugs might still be considered less "real" because of the small environments.

You talking like Oslo is some kind of European Juarez :nuts:
Oslo absolutely have some social problems, especially when it comes to drugs, but the murder rate is still among the lowest.

New York (7,3)
London (2,25)
Toronto (1,82)
København (1,8)
Oslo (1,67)

http://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/article2960893.ece

well, i didnt mean to make it seem like its a city equivalent to to juarez..

my point was just that oslo does have some big social problems, and im glad at least one person in here seems to agree with me on this.

Random newspaper clippings aren't facts, but i think we have roughly twice the number of reported "winning crime" for example than the national average per inhabitant. But when it comes to rape/murder and drug abuse, i doubt there is a big difference. I anything the openness of drugabusers around the station keeps Oslopeeps away from it while in smaller towns drugs might still be considered less "real" because of the small environments.

random newspaper clippings? what makes a news article not random?

then what are facts? no, im sure all of its made up by journalists who are bored at work. wow, your arguments make me want to cry. and whats a "winning crime"?

so youre saying there probably isnt more crime in oslo than in other cities, its just more visible there? :nuts: why am i even trying to have a discussion with you..

Nah, just that a clipping of someone getting stabbed could just have well been from any other town or bygdefest, shit happends. Winning crime is thefts or scams as opposed to violent crimes who are much more annoying. I don't really care about the discussion, it's funny to see your dedication to talk down on Oslo tough. Bergen does aubviously not have any problems yet, pay attention tough - now that you have masstransit you will get 'em too :)

Nah, just that a clipping of someone getting stabbed could just have well been from any other town or bygdefest, shit happends. Winning crime is thefts or scams as opposed to violent crimes who are much more annoying.

yes, of course. you are right, how could i ever say such a ridiculous thing? oslo has a high crime rate? :lol: what was i thinking..

i dont know what to say to you anymore man. you sound like youve been brainwashed by oslo-propaganda :lol: if such a thing exists! cuz all i ever read about the city is people getting robbed and beat up..

We don't have such propaganda, i can only tell you that you are not alone to imagine Oslo as a hellhole. It's quite common even by it's own residents, i still think it's quite safe. I've never been in a scary situation during my time here, only mailbox theft car thrashing and such - i have a more rough experience with the Haldens shady side with a few random beatings even in mid-daylight, but then again, i wouldn't say it has more crime than Oslo based on that cause i was unlucky.. Problem with such a small town is that if you are mixed up in something there is nowhere to "hide" since there is such a large chance to meet them again anytime.

Oslo is not worse than other larger cities regarding serious crime. There are many thefts and such reported, but that doesn't mean that Oslo has 4 times more crime than NY. A huge part of the Oslo stats is stolen bikes etc that probably wouldn't be reported in other big cities, lol.

About the druggies at Plata. Yes it is a shame and I think we are doing far to little to help these people. They way it is now they ar scaring people and tourists, and it works as an recruting area for younger people. Not good at all.. That said, many of the druggies have moved to Oslo from other parts of Norway, and I think it's unfair to say this is a Oslo problem, it is actually Norway that has a drug problem :ohno:

i too feel safer in bigger cities than in small ones.. but thats not the point.

in fact, when i was younger and stayed at my moms suburban home and had to take out the trash during the night, i ran :lol:

i dont imagine oslo as a hellhole, im just saying it just scores lower than the european average. at least compared to the western european average.. its a city characterized by social issues.

@muster you have a decent point when you say that such crimes often wouldnt not be reported in other cities. however, many of the druggies come from abroad as well.. that doesnt mean its europes problem. unfortunately for oslo, oslo is the city with the drug problem regardless of where the druggies originally came from.

Random newspaper clippings aren't facts, but i think we have roughly twice the number of reported "winning crime" for example than the national average per inhabitant. But when it comes to rape/murder and drug abuse, i doubt there is a big difference. I anything the openness of drugabusers around the station keeps Oslopeeps away from it while in smaller towns drugs might still be considered less "real" because of the small environments.


Unfortunuately drug abuse is quite real in Haugesund too, you see it every time you go past a city bench in sentrum, always some druggie or druggies injecting themselves and if they're not there are the moment, you're sure to find equipment left.... And unlike Oslo we do nothing about it... Of course the organizations do their bit, but the administration just sweeps it under the carpet, they know it's there, but do nothing...

Sure, but you used it as an argument against the E18 tunnel, as you may realise these are issues with little relevance, but you can always say that moving the upper-class development to the east may even out some of the geographical differences that plague Oslo. And i don't disagree that Hardanger deserves to be given a tunnel. What i don't agree with is the hate against power-lines, especially if the alternative solution makes it less operative. A road trough attractive waterfront in the capital city is different, not only does the road constitute a great physical barriers, it causes large local airpollution and noise, making the surrounding land unsuitable for new development. A powerline doesn't do any real damage, except some people thinks they are ugly - i respect their view on eastetics but not their sollution, as you understand, i really don't like hiding things.. I'm more in favour of turning it around with consideration to design.

And Glenn: We don't do much about the druggies either, the waiting for getting a spot in rehab is endless here.

@glenn, i always hear how they police in oslo just turn their back to it as well..

in bergen they generally stay in nygårdsparken.. its a shame, as its such a beautiful park.

IMO they should be forced into rehab.. after all, its for their own best.

@ingeniøren, i just used the tunnel as an example to how oslo is spending is prioritizing other things over fixing its social issues.. surely the tunnel should be built, it improves the area greatly. my point was just that oslo doesnt need more money than it already has in order to fix its problems (as per said money could fix the problems..) it just needs to spend them in a different manner.

I could say the same thing about Hardanger, it really needs a tunnel under Vidda both for environmental reasons (real ones), cause it's a barrier to the wild raindear population and high mountainpasses increases emissions. And more importantly for operative reasons as this road is often closed due to weather while it is the shortest road from Østlandet to Bergen, that is a project i would support 100%, what's the point of having the huge bridge if the road to Geilo isn't working properly. However it does NOT need a tunnel with powercables.

Of course one can build an underground cable. But high-voltage cables are very expensive. And laying an underground cable in stony terrain like Norway is very expensive.

But why do they not upgrade existing powerlines so that they are capable to carry multiple circuits?

They are doing that aswell.

Nevertheless, I stated, that in opposite to Germany, where most pylons carry 2 or even 4 circuits, in Sweden and Norway most pylons carry just one circuit.

Why not to design the powerline as artwork? A suggestion can be found on http://www.office-post.ru/10672#more-10672

^^ that has been posted several times on several pages in this thread. ;)

anyway, another suggestion for the Icelandic powerlines.
http://www.archdaily.com/81807/superstring-shindesign/

http://www.archdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/1287069214-perspective.jpg

As there is no agriculture on Hardanger, such pylons would be surely realizeable there without problems. For areas with agriculture use, they are not suitable as they disturb work with machines.

How will it look like once build? Here are Statnetts animation from the air and fjord:
http://www.statnett.no/Sima-Samnanger/index.html

How long are the planned Fjord spans of the line? Keep watching the work and make photographs when Fjord spans are built!

Four reports detailing the cost of a sea span compared to regular masts came out today (http://www.regjeringen.no/nb/dep/oed/dok/rapporter/2011/rapporter-mottatt-fra-de-fire-utvalgene-.html?id=632262).

In essence, they say that it is possible to place the cable undersea, but it will take up to five years longer, cost 3-5 billion kroner more and the landing stations will be large, unwanted installations in their own right. They also say that there is perhaps more time available than was previously thought.

NRK has an article here (http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7486676). Includes mayor of Ulvik chewing gum.

And those opposing the masts seem to believe the reports are helping their case (http://www.bt.no/nyheter/okonomi/--De-kan-spare-en-milliard-1244055.html#1244180).