seeing as it's been mentioned quite a bit on the transport thread I thought I'd start one specifically for discussing this idea.

Personally I think it's a very good one. An intensively-served heavy rail option can use all of the existing infrastructure and serve most major centres, which fits the profile of the LCR better than somewhere that is continuously urban, such as Manchester.

What I'd propose is a system based on the current Adale/Wdale lines model, with 100mph maximum speeds, frequent stops, high service frequency and modern trains (although to get the system up and running these would obviously be the last priority-we can well make do with cast off class 317s from down south).

Obviously this would make Leeds the centre of the network, but would also have to allow travel around Leeds between other areas. So I'd suggest some basic tenets for the project:

Infrastructure

-Bradford Crossrail
-Reinstatement of Bowling curve
-Reinstatement of Bradford-Liversedge-Wakefield
-Reinstatement of Cross Gates-Wetherby-Harrogate
-New line from Horsforth-Airport-Guiseley
-Electrification between:
Neville Hill-Colton Junction
Leeds-Brighouse-Huddersfield
Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield
Leeds-Harrogate-York
Cross Gates-Harrogate
Leeds-Castleford
Leeds-Pontefract-Goole
Leeds-Wakefield Wgate-Sheffield
Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield
Wakefield KGate-Pontefract
Huddersfield-Wakefield KGate
Leeds-Selby
Castleford-York
Pontefract-York
Knottingley-Doncaster
Bradford-Wakefield Kgate

-New stations at:

New Wortley (Oldfield Lane)
Armley Canal Rd
Armley Moor
Kirkstall Abbey (Bridge Rd)
Kirkstall Forge
Calverley Bridge Parkway (Ring Rd)
Apperly Bridge
Hawksworth (Spen Lane)
East End Park (East Park Parade)
Halton Moor (Selby Rd)
Barkston Ash
Copmanthorpe (York)
Dringhouses (York)
Pool & Bramhope
Stourton (Pontefract Road)
Hunslet (Beza Street)
Elland Road
White Rose Centre
Ardsley Common (station Lane)
Laisterdyke (Bradford, Sticker Lane)
Bowling (Bradford, Wakefield Road)
Low Moor (Bradford, Cleckheaton Rd)
Hipperholme
Siddal (Huddersfield Rd)
Elland (Lowfields Way)
Horbury
Hemsworth
Brotherton
Ackworth
Cleckheaton
Liversedge & Heckmondwike
Dewsbury Moor

Service

Service would be a basic quarter hourly service on:

Leeds-Huddersfield via Dewsbury
Leeds-Huddersfield via Brighouse & Bowling
Leeds-Bradford via Shipley
Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey
Leeds-Ilkley
Leeds-Skipton
Leeds-York-Leeds via Church Fenton & Harrogate
Leeds-Selby
Leeds-Goole via Castleford & Knottingley
Leeds-Barnsley (2tph extending to Sheffield)
Leeds-Doncaster


and half-hourly on

Ilkley-Wakefield via Bradford
Ilkley-Huddersfield via Bradford
Skipton-Wakefield via Bradford
Skipton-Huddersfield via Bradford
Leeds-Ilkley via Airport
Leeds-Skipton via Airport
Halifax-York via Bradford, Airport & Harrogate

seeing as it's been mentioned quite a bit on the transport thread I thought I'd start one specifically for discussing this idea.

Personally I think it's a very good one. An intensively-served heavy rail option can use all of the existing infrastructure and serve most major centres, which fits the profile of the LCR better than somewhere that is continuously urban, such as Manchester.

What I'd propose is a system based on the current Adale/Wdale lines model, with 100mph maximum speeds, frequent stops, high service frequency and modern trains (although to get the system up and running these would obviously be the last priority-we can well make do with cast off class 317s from down south).

Obviously this would make Leeds the centre of the network, but would also have to allow travel around Leeds between other areas. So I'd suggest some basic tenets for the project:

Infrastructure

-Bradford Crossrail
-Reinstatement of Bowling curve
-Reinstatement of Bradford-Liversedge-Wakefield
-Reinstatement of Cross Gates-Wetherby-Harrogate
-New line from Horsforth-Airport-Guiseley
-Electrification between:
Neville Hill-Colton Junction
Leeds-Brighouse-Huddersfield
Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield
Leeds-Harrogate-York
Cross Gates-Harrogate
Leeds-Castleford
Leeds-Pontefract-Goole
Leeds-Wakefield Wgate-Sheffield
Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield
Wakefield KGate-Pontefract
Huddersfield-Wakefield KGate
Leeds-Selby
Castleford-York
Pontefract-York
Knottingley-Doncaster
Bradford-Wakefield Kgate

-New stations at:

New Wortley (Oldfield Lane)
Armley Canal Rd
Armley Moor
Kirkstall Abbey (Bridge Rd)
Kirkstall Forge
Calverley Bridge Parkway (Ring Rd)
Apperly Bridge
Hawksworth (Spen Lane)
East End Park (East Park Parade)
Halton Moor (Selby Rd)
Barkston Ash
Copmanthorpe (York)
Dringhouses (York)
Pool & Bramhope
Stourton (Pontefract Road)
Hunslet (Beza Street)
Elland Road
White Rose Centre
Ardsley Common (station Lane)
Laisterdyke (Bradford, Sticker Lane)
Bowling (Bradford, Wakefield Road)
Low Moor (Bradford, Cleckheaton Rd)
Hipperholme
Siddal (Huddersfield Rd)
Elland (Lowfields Way)
Horbury
Hemsworth
Brotherton
Ackworth
Cleckheaton
Liversedge & Heckmondwike
Dewsbury Moor

Service

Service would be a basic quarter hourly service on:

Leeds-Huddersfield via Dewsbury
Leeds-Huddersfield via Brighouse & Bowling
Leeds-Bradford via Shipley
Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey
Leeds-Ilkley
Leeds-Skipton
Leeds-York-Leeds via Church Fenton & Harrogate
Leeds-Selby
Leeds-Goole via Castleford & Knottingley
Leeds-Barnsley (2tph extending to Sheffield)
Leeds-Doncaster


and half-hourly on

Ilkley-Wakefield via Bradford
Ilkley-Huddersfield via Bradford
Skipton-Wakefield via Bradford
Skipton-Huddersfield via Bradford
Leeds-Ilkley via Airport
Leeds-Skipton via Airport
Halifax-York via Bradford, Airport & Harrogate


You frequently see such ideas for other cities and it would be good to explore aspirations for the Leeds rail network. I believe the local rail network to be both severely under developed and have great unfufilled potential. The German S-Bahns provide useful comparisons - particularly Frankfurt in my view; if Leeds were in Germany we would already have one.

I agree entirely that the local rail network has a fundamental role to play: the infrastructure already exists in the majority of transport corridors and given the settlement pattern of the City Region it must be the starting point for developing a strategic, modern metropolitan transport system for Leeds.

Sadly, for a long time the local rail strategy (presently the LCR Transport Strategy) has been very wishy washy about what sort of services, frequencies, journey times, etc. are needed by given dates. To me it looks as though they are saying - "Since we don't have much influence over this stuff we won't bother trying".


Two of the characteristics of our local rail system are slow journey times and the lack of stations. For example it astounds me that Bradford to Leeds takes 25-30 mins by either route yet there are so few intermediate stops. I would say a reasonable aspiration would be closer to 15 mins on at least one route and a station every mile or two. Using the Pudsey route this might mean a mixture of limited stop through trains and all stop shuttles - perhaps a mixture of S-Bahn and tram-train. Another alternative could be to develop Shipley as the fast route combined with the Bradford single station idea and convert the Pudsey route to Light Rail. There are many possibilities.

more chance of me flying to the moon people. than having and real investment in public transport in the uk. it will only ever happen when the goverment gets out of bed with the oil companies. which will never happen any time soon IMO

It ain't the oil companies.

The general public want cheap petrol and empty roads.

On the whole most people want everyone else on public transport so they can have empty roads.

Look back at the election, transport was not mentioned. It does not matter that much to people and when it does it is that petrol prices are too high.

it aint the oil companies????????????????? WTF

the goverment gets around £50billion each year out of the road using people, and invests only around £15 billion per year.

The goverment has privatised busses and trains and deliberatly knowing the private companies would increase prices and reduce routes and frequency.

the oil companies have wet them selfs with delight when the bent politicians did this to the public transport system in the uk.

it started with maggie who started the implemention of the milton friedman form of economic free market policies. that allows this kind of abuse and whole sale corruption and theft of assets that are owned and payed for by the tax payer, stolen and sold to there private busnessmen friends.

why does nearly the whole of the rest of europe have a far superior public transport system, because there goverments have not been sold on this american economic idea of fuck every thing and lets make the rich even more rich and let fuck the country for the majority of people.

if ya need proof read a book call the shock doctorine, bny noimi klein

Do you wear a tin foil hat?

If I could be bothered I would continue this but you've made up your mind on incorrect facts, there was me thinking rail passenger numbers have rocketed since privatisation, but you clearly know what you are talking about.

I'll just remind you of one thing.

The Labour government was most unpopular before the second Iraq war during the petrol strikes. If the government really was in the pockeet of the oil companies why is fuel duty so high?

The real reason we've not got the same transport as Germany is two fold.

Hitler laid the foundations of a transport network, post war the country got huge sums spent on it to deliver good transport systems.

Since WWII the lande governments have continually had the ability to raise money and have spent money on local transport.

In the UK, from the war onwards, until quite recently, we've spent very little in comparison to the Germans.

Even with local revenue raising powers I am not sure many UK regions will do so to improve public transport.

We've become so wedded to the car in the last 60 years, and never had the decent alternatives that the Germans tend to enjoy, as such, on the whole there really is not a huge demand to spent vast sums of public money on public transport.

Someone find out what the % of people in Leeds is who regularly use public transport. Then find the number for a similar sized city in Germany.

That is the main reason for the differing policies of governments, the populations have different priorities.

The real reason we've not got the same transport as Germany is two fold.

Hitler laid the foundations of a transport network, post war the country got huge sums spent on it to deliver good transport systems.

Since WWII the lande governments have continually had the ability to raise money and have spent money on local transport.

In the UK, from the war onwards, until quite recently, we've spent very little in comparison to the Germans.

Even with local revenue raising powers I am not sure many UK regions will do so to improve public transport.

We've become so wedded to the car in the last 60 years, and never had the decent alternatives that the Germans tend to enjoy, as such, on the whole there really is not a huge demand to spent vast sums of public money on public transport.

Someone find out what the % of people in Leeds is who regularly use public transport. Then find the number for a similar sized city in Germany.

That is the main reason for the differing policies of governments, the populations have different priorities.

The UK got more US-aid from the 'Marshall Plan' than any other European country, including war-torn France and West Germany. While they modernised their infrastructure and converted their war-time industrial capacity into successful manufacturing operations, we squandered it on trying to remain a world power.

The problem with public transport is that it has to be way over capacity before the Government will invest any money in it so there's no wonder that people prefer to use their cars causing a vicious circle.

If there was investment in decent infrastructure and services, more people would be temped out of their cars. That's why taking the bus in London is seen as a norm, whereas in Leeds it's the transport of last resort that most people avoid like the plague if they can!

The main point I make is that there is a different attitude towards public transport in the German population. Based on the fact that since the war they have continually invested great sums in their transport.

We are so far behind it'll take decades to catch up even if we did increase our spend massively.

You're both right.. this British attitude of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' isn't serving us well on the transport front. Suburban rail networks like those in Leeds would have been the envy of most European cities at the beginning of last century. How the tables have turned.

And the attitude towards buses probably is combination of fear of crime, and an inept snobby attitude towards them, epitomised by a rumoured Thatcher quote, "A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure."

How do you begin to dispell that belief?

It won't be just Thatcher who thinks such things.

How many people in well paid, professional, influencial positions will have similar attitudes?

It'll take decades, if ever, for this general attitude to change. The challenge is understanding how to make people want more money be spent on transport, even if at first glance they personally do not benefit.

The obvious example today is HSR.

Watch the cries of foul from regions that are not included on the first line.. Watch the attempts to de-rail it by those asked to contribute but do not see an obvious initial benefit.

fuel duty is so high in the uk, to produce a symbiotic relationship meaning the goverment becomes reliant on duty from fuel so it will never try to change the status quo, this relationship has been created by the oil companies with there interests at heart.

you can watch the shock doctorine documentary on 4od it was shown a few months back on more4. check it out wirlieG and no i dont have a tin foil hat. just have my eyes open to whats really going on in this country.

If only we hads more balls as a nation we could stand up as a united front and stop the whole sale shafting of our country. as opposed to sitting in front of our 50" tv watching mind rotting shite like x factor and soap operas.

this country is years behind the rest of europe in terms of public transport, construction, health care services, standard of living, education and generally every single element that makes up our lives.
I spend about 4 to 5 months in austria and germany every year and this island is slipping back into the second and eventually third tier of world countrys. we are 20 to 30 years behind these countrys inmost areas.

I spend about 4 to 5 months in austria and germany every year and this island is slipping back into the second and eventually third tier of world countrys. we are 20 to 30 years behind these countrys inmost areas.

Haha, one of the funniest things I've read for a while. I think you need to read up on the definitions of second and third world, particularly second. Also, it's not politically correct to say third world, tut tut :nono:

Just realised you never said third world, silly me.

The one... we get the politicians that we deserve - end off.

The idea that the UK only (presumably) has ALL the main political parties in the pocket of the oil companies and this has been the case since the end of the second world war is as daft as it sounds.

But yes, we are 20-30 years behind the countries on the continent in many ways, but that is not due to oil companies influence on this side of the channel.

no its not down to just the oil companies at all, its just one example of the accepted underhanded ways in which goverments are really running the world.

Governments elected by us.

What we need in this country is a real public transport network and in leeds we need an underground. the economic impact of this would be massive for the city and would really fire us into a league above where we are right now.
But it wont happen as an underground in leeds would lead to billions of litres of petrol not been bought and duty not been paid gov and oil companies both not happy.
This is the real reason why, and real and fair public transport investment on a national scale would impact the goverment and the oil companies that they will never let it happen, even though its what we need to do to further develop our nation, for the greater good.

1) An underground in a city with as low population density as Leeds would not be the most sensible transport system. It'd be a vanity project rather than a project aimed at resolving a genuine transport issue. Buses are the right solution for most West Yorks transport corridors. If any corridors could sustain about 2,000 public transport passengers an hour in each direction then light rail becomes viable. You need to get well over 10,000 per hour per direction to get close to justifying an underground. There is no where outside London that gets close to that kind of passenger flow levels.

2) Instead of such incredibly simplistic 'oil companies bad' postings why not question who should be paying for what?
Should it be down to national treasury to fund what may essentially be a scheme that helps the subregional economy to develop? Is there not an arguement, like with Metrolink, the parts of the scheme that would generate the local economy should be funded locally?

3) The government does spend large sums on public transport. Many rail services are subsidised. All parties are signed up to HSR, not sure why the oil companies are so keen on such a scheme???

Write to your local councillors and MP, get into a conversation with them about your thoughts. I suspect you may well be surprised by the responses you get. I certainly was when I have spoken to my local MPs about the transport issues that affect my region.

1. malaga small city has just built an underground, hmmmmmmm seems strange along with many other citys in europe quite strange i think you will agree.........

2. give yorkshire all the money it sends to the tresury in the form of duty and and in a few years of investing all the duty money the underground would be up and running, then onto bradford and sheffield ect.....

3. as previously stated £15 billion of £50 billion is less than a third of the money reinvested into transport, this is a total joke, HSR is a total joke and will hit the same problems as all other transport projects.
HSR needs to go to the north and then scotland first as the benifit of going to birmingham is very questionable brum is so close to london so the benfit to cost ratio is weak at best. and guess what phase 2 will be long delayed mark my words!!!!!!1

Speaking to MPs is a waste of time as most simply do not understand to situation under which we are living. so you get told the same bullshit crap hence why politics in the uk is in the worst shape for generations.

Hummmm do i vote for the tory labour party or the labour tory party makes fuck all difference they are all in the same gang doing the same fuck the population bullshit and make the small rich minority alot richer and the country that little bit worse off..

1. malaga small city has just built an underground, hmmmmmmm seems strange along with many other citys in europe quite strange i think you will agree.........

Tell me about the passenger flows on the corridors that are served by this underground. Spainish cities tend to have much higher population densities and passenger flows compared to UK cities, other than London.



2. give yorkshire all the money it sends to the tresury in the form of duty and and in a few years of investing all the duty money the underground would be up and running, then onto bradford and sheffield ect.....

West Yorks has the lowest council tax transport levy in England.. Suggests to me that their is less local willingness to tax people locally to fund ssuch schemes.

Just as has happened in Manchester the west Yorks authorities do have the chance to raise money locally.

3. as previously stated £15 billion of £50 billion is less than a third of the money reinvested into transport, this is a total joke, HSR is a total joke and will hit the same problems as all other transport projects.
HSR needs to go to the north and then scotland first as the benifit of going to birmingham is very questionable brum is so close to london so the benfit to cost ratio is weak at best. and guess what phase 2 will be long delayed mark my words!!!!!!1
So how does HSR and rail subsidy help the oil companies again?

Speaking to MPs is a waste of time as most simply do not understand to situation under which we are living. so you get told the same bullshit crap hence why politics in the uk is in the worst shape for generations.

Hummmm do i vote for the tory labour party or the labour tory party makes fuck all difference they are all in the same gang doing the same fuck the population bullshit and make the small rich minority alot richer and the country that little bit worse off..

As I said, I bet you would be surprised by the answers you got.

no point talking to you as when i clearly show that less than 30% reinvested into transport you come back with oil companies bla bla bla, you clearly dont have the mental capcity to understand the points im making, less than 30% is enough to maintain the countrys infastructure, but nothing more.....

HSR is pie in the sky and a way of giving prats like you the ability to defend the frankly laughable transport infastructure investment program in the uk... IMO

No country re-invests all the money they get from fuel duty on transport though do they? We do not ring fence our taxation for specific spending. The duty raised on cigarettes is not ring fenced for hospitals either. We don't work in that way in this country. Nothing to do with any oil companies either.

Places like France, Spain, Germany, Italy, USA all tend to have LOCAL taxes that fund the LOCAL transport schemes. They do not rely on Federal / National funding on the whole.This is the route that needs to be followed if Leeds or other cities wish to devolop improved local transport.

You still have not explained why vast sums are spent on rail subsidies and will be spent on HSR? Presumably that takes a lot of cars off the road. That money could equally have been spent on new motorways, but isn't.

oh, and just to clarify my view point.

I would like the national government to soley focus on national schems such as motorways and intercity railways.

Local schemes, that only affect local areas should be, on the whole, funded by those who would benefit.

Why should someone in Devon be contributing to an underground in Leeds that will improve the Leeds economy but not the Devon one?

I think we would both agree we would want significantly more investment in (public) transport.

The difference being I do not see huge public demand for such massively increased spending.

In fact I will make a prediction.

When the government cuts about 25% of the budget from the government departments, there will be next to no public reaction to the transport spending cuts whereas there will be to other cuts.

As far as I see there is not huge public pressure in the UK for higher public transport spending.

projects like undergrounds and supertrams are of national importance and without the goverment there is no way they will ever go ahead. people of the uk all benefit from developing the countrys infastructure. more jobs and better standard of living improved enviroment, making the citys other than london internationally competetive, this is what is needed not the same shit that the country has been fed for the last 60years.

in london why do we the uk tax payer, pay for cross rail amongst many many other public transport project in the capital with no benifit to the poeple of devon??????????????

the germans and austrians pay way less tax than us fools in the uk and they enjoy far better use of that money in every aspect of there lives, public transport is a must and a priority not the last one on the to do list.

you are missing the whole point wirlie g. we have the wool pulled firmly over the nations eyes and are perfectly happy to let our tax money get pissed down the whitehall drain. and people like you go on and on about minor points missing the actual point some one is trying to make.

investing in public transport is to everyones benefit not just the local area, if you can't see this then there is no point in trying to convince you otherwise, like most small minded people who have never really lived simply cant comprehend major issues, let alone read about it and form an educated veiw point, IMO

We pay lower taxes than practically all other western EU countries.

Why do all those other countries use local funding to pay for such schemes do you think?

having many many good friends in germany, austria, holland, finland, sweden, spain and switzerland to mane a few i can tell you we pay more in taxes

So ask them about how their local transport is funded.

We essentially agree that more money should be spent on public transport.

As I say, watch for a total lack of reaction to the effects of the spending review on transport in October by the public at large.

That is the reason why we spend less on such schemes than the European average, there is less public demand for such spending.

When I can be bothered I will dig out graphs that show overall taxation by country. We are very lowly taxed overall in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

(Selected) List of countries by tax revenue as percentage of GDP

Austria 43.4%
Belgium 46.8%
Finland 43.6%
France 46.1%
Germany 40.6%
Ireland 34.0%
Italy 42.6%
Netherlands 39.5%
Spain 37.3%
Switzerland 30.1%
UK 39.0%

So very far from the highest taxation.


Anyway, we both agree we would like to see more spent on public transport, the difference being I don't see a huge public demand for this increased spending that you claim to.

In fact, a pretty graph...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_as_of_gdp-taxation-total-as-of-gdp

States the average is 39.4% on their measure whereas the UK is 37.4% on their measure, i.e. two % below the international average.



Edit - I cannot find any opinion poll that ranks where Transport is in the rankings of influencial issues that affect voting intention. In fact the best I can find is...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/issues/4506035.stm

which does back up what I was saying about the UK public not exactly seeing transport as a critical issue when voting - hence the government does not treat it as the most important issue either.

ohhhh wikipedia, that real info made up by anyone, well done with that one mate!!!!!!

tax is not easily measured in austria you dont pay any tax on earning less than 10000euros for example i have compared my earnings to that of my friends and there is not much in it but i am definatly worse off. added to the fact they get such better schools hospitals raod transport ect........

e.g. im paying my uni debts off still and i have to drive every where which is more tax out my pocket. the stated tax rates are worthless as so ,much of our tax is collected by stealth means, taxing the estates of dead people ect.., if they tried this on the continent they would be laughed out of the building.

my father lives in spain and hardly any one pays tax thats why the country is so fucked there are 3 brothers who run a building firm and builders merchant and a large haulage company and they payed not one cent of tax or there 68 employes. so put that on wikipedia i ya want.

urm, I posted two links.

Even the Wikipedia is sourced...

http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx

They have done an analysis of all the stealth taxes etc and provided a list.

If you chose to make more of anacdotal evidence than the researched work that is carried out by the Heritage foundation - http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx

the OECD - http://www.oecd.org/document/4/0,3343,en_2649_34533_41407428_1_1_1_1,00.html

or Eurostat - http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/gen_info/economic_analysis/tax_structures/index_en.htm

then do so. But I am afraid you are wrong and your anacdotal conversations with people who live abroad does not tell you the whole details.

Tell you what.

Who do you believe, The One that Leads with his conversations with the odd person or the EU?

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=STAT/08/92&format=HTML&aged=0&language=en&guiLanguage=en

I'll go with the EU.

i work in austria every year mate so i know what im talking about an overall rate of tax like the ones you have provided, this is tax against gdp, hence more or less gdp will increase and decrease the rate. stats are shit the reality is how much we pay in reality.

i earn around £30000 per year and compaired to my good friends in austria and germany and holland pay less tax and recieve so much more from the goverment.
your argument is flawed and based on some web sites not real life experiences unlike mine. grow up an recognize the fact is i work and pay tax in austria and its less than what i pay in the uk.

so no its no just me talking to some one in spain its my father who has lived there for many years and has his own construction business, so knows the people very very well and the info i gave is 100% true.

get a life go out into the real world, and live a life

So, how much VAT do they pay on food in Austria? What about childrens clothes?

What about local taxes and all the other Austrian 'stealth' taxes.

I've lived in Germany for 18months, I tell you what, compared to over there I pay a lot less in overall taxation now than I did then.

You cannot provide a single shred of researched evidence to show that we pay higher taxes than elsewhere for good reason.

We don't, we pay much lower taxes on the whole compared to western EU countries and all the research reflects that.

i bet you are one of these sad small minded people who read the mail and have fuck all life experiences, believe the total lies and shit that the media spout out. i bet a million quid that you still believe we went to war in iraq to free them, and to deliver democracy and freedom.

I will give you a clue.

In the UK we pay 0% on childrens clothes and 0% on food.

In Austria they pay 20% VAT on childrens clothes and 10% on food.

So yes, you MAY have lower direct taxation on your wages but you end up paying a hell of a lot more overall.

WTF are you on about. your own stats show the germany has only 1% more tax rate than the uk. you are contradicting your self like the idiot you are.

"I've lived in Germany for 18months, I tell you what, compared to over there I pay a lot less in overall taxation now than I did then" WHAT ARE YOU ON???????????

You pay more on VAT for example, see post 40, in countries like Germany and Austria than you do in the UK.

Stop getting het up, it will do you no favours.

Instead try showing some evidence that we pay higher taxes in the UK than in europe, something more than anacdotal evidence of one or two people does not really count.


As I said before, VAT on childrens cloths is 20% in Austria, they also have a 10% VAT on food.

In the UK the VAT on those items is 0%.

You seem to have avery simplistic view of the world from your postings recently.

SO WHAT THE COST OF FOOD IS ALOT CHEAPER PETROL IS CHEAPER BEER IS CHEAPER TRAINS AND BUSSES ARE CHEAPER NO COUNCIL TAX ECT.... SHALL I GO ON

YOU HAVE SAID THAT GERMANY IS SO MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THEN YOU GIVE ME STATS THAT SHOW IN GERMANY HAS ONLY 1% HIGHER TAX RATE. CONTRADICT YA SELF WELL DONE MATE..

Arf, getting wound up are we as you can see your logic slipping away.

Germany - when you buy a property you pay between 3.5% and 4% of the value to the local authority.

Does not happen in England, stamp duty is much lower.

I don't care if food / petrol whatever is cheaper. The very simple fact is that they are more heavily taxed in countries like Austria.

Take a chill pill and stop and consider what you've posted and consider taking a break before the hole you are digging gets too big.

You need to stop getting wound up by this minor side issue, it is not important.

All that matters is the fact that we clearly do not have politicians who have the same desire to spend as much money on public transport as those in other countries.

I will continue to assert that the sole reason for this is the lower level of importance placed on transport by the UK population than say the Bravarians, the Austrians or the Swedes for example.

When we, the public as a whole, start to care more about this issue then so will the politicians.

Tell me, do you honestly think there will be much of an out cry when the DfT budget is slashed in October? I honestly think not, certainly not to the same level as with other budgets, such as defence, education etc etc.

i agree that the general population will not react to a DFT cut in budget,
but thats not what the goverment is supposed to do,they shoiuld be looking to develop the country not listen to what idiots in the papers say, this is one of the main reasons why this country tops most of the bad lists ( crime, youth pregnancy rates,levels of education, prosperity etc....) and falls behind on all the important lists(health, transport, standard of living ect..)

our goverment are always reactivly governing and not proactivly governing the country, running assetts down and then selling them off for next to nowt, this is why were are in the situation we are in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, but that will remain the case whilst the population remains as apothetic as it does today on these issues.

We get the politicians we deserve I'm afraid.

We elect them and we hold them to account.

If they are not doing it properly then pressue should be put on them to do it better.

The fact is there is simply no pressure from the public to sort out transport otherwise it would be a massive issue.

When the public attitudes change so will the governments. Given the crap transport we have now I doubt that will ever happen.

As I said a long time ago, the average person in Leeds wants to use their car on an empty road, they want everyone else in buses etc. There is very little incentive to spend vast sums on public transport -just read the comments on newspaper websites when it is proposed that large sums are spent on things like the trolley buses.

God's Own City, looking again at your ideas you have not included services along the Calder Valley. Is this because you consider they will be dealt with by longer distance services?

Personally I would like to see more use made of the Leeds - Brighouse - Calder Valley route as it, theoretically at least, could make a significant improvement to journey times.

God's Own City, looking again at your ideas you have not included services along the Calder Valley. Is this because you consider they will be dealt with by longer distance services?

Personally I would like to see more use made of the Leeds - Brighouse - Calder Valley route as it, theoretically at least, could make a significant improvement to journey times.

I've included the caldervale line with 4tph on Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey, Leeds-Pudsey-Bowling-Halifax-Brighouse-Huddersfield and 4tph Bradford-Halifax-Brighouse-Huddersfield. New stations at Low Moor, Hipperholme, Siddal & Elland would all be served.

As for NW of Halifax, yes, these would be served by longer distance services. Personally, I don't think there's a need for Manchester Vic-Leeds services, as the journey time via at Huddersfield line is so much quicker. So the serve pattern would be:

1tph Scarborough-Blackpool North (Seamer, Malton, York, Garforth, Leeds, New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Hebden Bridge, Burnley M Rd, Accrington, Blackburn, Preston, Poulton le Fylde)

1tph York-Preston (Micklefield, Garforth, Leeds, New Pudsey, Bradford, Hipperholme, Halifax, Siddal, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Burnley M Rd, Accrington, Blackburn)

2tph Bradford-Manchester Vic (all stops)

2tph Bradford-Liverpool L Street (Halifax, Todmorden, Rochdale, Manchester Vic, Salford Central, Eccles, Newton le Willows, St Helens Junction)

1tph Leeds-Manchester Vic (Morley, Batley, Dewsbury, Brighouse, Elland, & all stops)

1tph Bradford-Manchester Pic (Hipperholme, Halifax, Siddal, Elland, Brighouse, Huddersfield, Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge)

2tph Halifax-Goole (Siddal, Elland, Brighouse, Mirfield, Wakefield KGgate & all stops)