Return to roots for new Bullring restaurant hub
6th September 2010
By Tamlyn Jones - Business Correspondent

Artist's impression of Spiceal Street scheme at Bullring in Birmingham
A NEW hub containing seven restaurants is to be created at one of the region's biggest shopping centres.

Three new outlets totalling 10,000 sq ft will be built at the Bullring, in Birmingham, to sit alongside three existing restaurants and the new Italian eatery owned by TV chef Jamie Oliver which is due to open this autumn.

A public exhibition is being held outside the shopping centre on Thursday and Friday this week which will showcase the proposals for the 'Spiceal Street' scheme with a planning application due to be submitted to Birmingham City Council this autumn.

The project will draw on the history of the area as the original Spiceal Street was known for its hospitality, grocery and meat trade during the 1700s.

The area next to St Martin's Square currently has a fountain and pedestrian zone and the existing Gloria Jean's Coffee unit is expected to move elsewhere in Birmingham in due course.

The 20,000 sq ft project has been designed by architects Chapman Taylor and also includes a 'ribbon concept' curved roof linking the trio of new units, a new wall, water feature and improved pedestrian links from St Martin's Walk to St Martin's Square.

Real estate company Hammerson, which co-owns the Bullring with Henderson Global Investors and Future Fund, is leading the Spiceal Street scheme.

Lawrence Hutchings, managing director of its UK Retail division, said: "Spiceal Street will enhance Bullring's presence in the region and reinforces our long-term involvement and investment in Birmingham.

"We have a strong reputation for bringing new brands to the city and we are confident we can continue this at Spiceal Street.

"We look forward to sharing our proposals with local businesses and shoppers and we hope that people will take the time to come and see the proposals and also to share their views."

The exhibition is being held in St Martin's Walk from 10am to 7pm on Thursday and 10am to 6pm on Friday and representatives will be on hand to talk about the project.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/Biosonic/Renders/BullringSpicealSt.jpg

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/westmidlands/news/60609-return-to-roots-for-new-bullring-restaurant-hub.html?news_section=19011

As I said in retail thread this looks rather exciting. Would be nice to see some independent restaurants as well rather than three more chains.

Does this mean the spiral cafe is going?

I should learn to read before i post a Question, it is a shame but welcome the bigger development, the space around the fountains has always been under uterlised.

Does this mean the spiral cafe is going?

The text above says

"The area next to St Martin's Square currently has a fountain and pedestrian zone and the existing Gloria Jean's Coffee unit is expected to move elsewhere in Birmingham in due course"

This is the first I have heard of this project, and I find it a little disappointing.

To me the area between the Bull Ring and the church is a nice "gap" between the modern BullRing shopping and the historic church. I am not religious at all but feel the church deserves space around it.

Many people stand or sit on the upper balcony (near the Nelson statue) and have a bite to eat, or a rest, or admire the church.

But now the viewing and seating area near Nelson's statue will go, and the restaurant on the right (in the "dip") is looking very close to the chuch and will "spoil" the space between commericialism and the historic old building.

What next, a McDonalds in the grounds of the Cathedral in the city centre?

Look at this picture and see how many people are standing on the balcony on the right (exactly where one of the restaurants will go). We have so many undeveloped areas of Birmingham so why here (I know why, because it is a captive audience, but it is such a shame).

http://www.laosfriendship.com/St%20Martins%20church%20and%20Bull%20Ring,Birmingham,2008.jpg

^^^ i some what agree with Guilbert, the development on the right hand side of the render for me is a little bit close. Exciting nonetheless

I wonder where the spiral cafe will go, I'd guess into storage for now/very long time and either end up at 1 of 5 locations i think;

Somewhere near the new Library or redevloped paradise circus

Beorma

Eastside city park

New Street Station after the refurb

Or on the east mall (selfridges) entrance of bullring

i think this will be very special form of art - i look forward to more renders, especially the part to the right side of the church, currently just steps.

..I love that their looking to expand Bullring, this was a huge space of random level surface and will looks good if approved, where is the new 'water feature' they are talking about, it will be a shame to loose the 3 cubes because they look amazing at night, and hopefully the café will stay on Bullring grounds..

Here is a slighty bigger render..
http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bullring.jpg

This is the first I have heard of this project, and I find it a little disappointing.

To me the area between the Bull Ring and the church is a nice "gap" between the modern BullRing shopping and the historic church. I am not religious at all but feel the church deserves space around it.

Many people stand or sit on the upper balcony (near the Nelson statue) and have a bite to eat, or a rest, or admire the church.

But now the viewing and seating area near Nelson's statue will go, and the restaurant on the right (in the "dip") is looking very close to the chuch and will "spoil" the space between commericialism and the historic old building.

What next, a McDonalds in the grounds of the Cathedral in the city centre?

Look at this picture and see how many people are standing on the balcony on the right (exactly where one of the restaurants will go). We have so many undeveloped areas of Birmingham so why here (I know why, because it is a captive audience, but it is such a shame).

http://www.laosfriendship.com/St%20Martins%20church%20and%20Bull%20Ring,Birmingham,2008.jpg

I don't really think that this is going to hem in the church much more than it already is. And I'm not a particularly big fan of the current layout because the stairs are awful and have been covered in crap to stop people slipping over and breaking their necks, and the passage down the side of the Bullring is lifeless and lacks and frontages.

As for why they aren't putting it somewhere else, well, why would they? If you want something to be successful you put it where the people are, hoping that people are going to spend 15 minutes travelling to the arse end of Birmingham for what represents a tiny amount of retail space overall, just wouldn't work. The only way it would ever work would be to wait 10 years until Eastside/southside represent anything like attractive areas for investment.

http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bullring.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/6hkbhv.jpg

I like it. Looks sensible to me as long as you can meander round to the balcony

This will be a good addition the the Bullring. We have known for a while the spiral cafe was to move, and this explains why.

This will be a good addition to Martineau Place, Mailbox and Brindley Place.

Have new owners of the Bullring sold off Martineau Place yet?

The only way it would ever work would be to wait 10 years until Eastside/southside represent anything like attractive areas for investment.

I've not known you be that optimistic about Eastside before.

Inclined to agree with you though - it's in a good place for the passing trade that these units would need, as long as the offering is good.

I'll be sad to see the Spiral Cafe go as I do like it - hopefully it won't be lost in the Store of Doom for too long.

I don't really think that this is going to hem in the church much more than it already is.

Maybe not the two restaurant buildings on the left (on the upper level as it were), but the one on the right, down on the "lower" level, seems to be right next to the church.


As for why they aren't putting it somewhere else, well, why would they?


I have no great objection to the two buildings on the upper level, they probably fit in with the overall BullRing concept (although they do seem to be nearer the church than the existing buildings).

But some things deserve a bit of respect and I think that area on the lower level is a decent space between the church and the BullRing and should be left "open".

I saw a news item the other day about putting advertising on the Colleseum in Rome, and one guy (an American no less) was complaining that more and more large adverts were appearing on the sides of important buildings in Rome.

He said Rome was getting more like Times Square.

I think this is a similar example. We have a historic building near the Bull Ring so lets give it some space.

^^ I think there is a bit too much space.. it also has egdbaston street space aswell..

i'll have to take a trip down and look at the showings on Thursday, because that one picture don't do enough justice

I don't think the church will really be any more 'hemmed in' than it is now. Looking at the plan the areas to the left and centre - look to be mostly along the existing lines of the building / steps... where there is currently plenty of space around the church it here. The most squashed area is between the church and the Selfridges building which currently doesn't work at all well and will benefit from re-envisioning - there are both steps and a large ramp making the steps superfluous and this is mostly a dead area with no activity.

Couple of articles on it from Mail and Post


New restaurant complex planned for Bullring
Sep 7 2010 By Jonny Greatrex

Birmingham shopping centre The Bullring has unveiled plans for a new restaurant complex and an outdoor public space.

The 20,00ftsq ft development will see the area around St Martin’s Square transformed with three new eateries in a new area called Spiceal Street.

Images released by the shopping centre show a sweeping curved roof, along with a proposed water feature.

It will be in place of the steps which lead up to the upper levels of the centre and Gloria Jean’s Spiral Cafe, which will both be relocated.

Bullring bosses are now waiting to see if city planners back the scheme.

The name comes from the 18th century street which stood on the site and was famed for its spices, grocery and meat trade.

An exhibition is being held at the centre on Thursday and Friday to give the public a chance to examine the plans.

It has been designed by award-winning architects Chapman Taylor and includes a “ribbon concept” curved roof. It will also improve pedestrian links between St Martin’s Walk and St Martin’s Square.

Developers Hammerson will be in charge of building the striking new complex.

Lawrence Hutchings, Hammerson managing director for UK retail, said: “We have a proven track record in Birmingham with Bullring delivering an exceptional retail focus for the city.

“Spiceal Street will enhance Bullring’s presence in the region and reinforces our long-term involvement and investment in Birmingham.

“We have a strong reputation for bringing new brands to the city and we are confident we can continue this at Spiceal Street.”

It is not known yet which restaurants will take up the space or how many jobs will be created.

The development will sit in front of the former Borders book shop which went into administration in November last year. In April it was reported that television chef Jamie Oliver was planning to open a new restaurant in the vacant retail space.

The exhibition of the plans will be in Central Street Bullring from 10am to 7pm on Thursday and 10am to 6pm on Friday.

http://www.birminghampost.net/birmingham-business/birmingham-business-news/2010/09/07/new-restaurant-complex-planned-for-bullring-65233-27219193/


Birmingham's Bullring unveils plans for new restaurant complex
Sep 7 2010

Birmingham shopping centre The Bullring has unveiled plans for a new restaurant complex and an outdoor public space.

The 20,00ftsq ft development will see the area around St Martin’s Square transformed with three new eateries in a new area called Spiceal Street.

Images released by the shopping centre show a sweeping curved roof, along with a proposed water feature.

...
Lawrence Hutchings, Hammerson managing director for UK retail, said: “We have a proven track record in Birmingham with Bullring delivering an exceptional retail focus for the city.

“Spiceal Street will enhance Bullring’s presence in the region and reinforces our long-term involvement and investment in Birmingham.

“We have a strong reputation for bringing new brands to the city and we are confident we can continue this at Spiceal Street.”

It is not known yet which restaurants will take up the space or how many jobs will be created.

The development will sit in front of the former Borders book shop which went into administration in November last year. In April it was reported that television chef Jamie Oliver was planning to open a new restaurant in the vacant retail space.

The exhibition of the plans will be in Central Street Bullring from 10am to 7pm on Thursday and 10am to 6pm on Friday

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2010/09/07/birmingham-s-bullring-unveils-plans-for-new-restaurant-complex-97319-27219241/

This area can be pretty deserted at night. Maybe a few restuarants will help to rectify this although I expect they'll be a load of chains. I often think that a bar in the Bullring (even a wetherspoons) would be good to add a bit of activity after dark. The only boozer round there is the Bullring tavern which is not the best...

looks interesting, but is a weird place to build it IMO. It is a bit empty I suppose, would have rathered a new area to be designated for this really, I still think that Broad Street could be a good choice for a food zone/district with lots of restaurants of all types.

where is the new 'water feature' they are talking about

I think it's behind the statue of Nelson, which seems appropriate. Looks like it waves a little to match the roof of the restaurant units.

I don't know why they seem so intent on keeping the central set of stairs as they make the passageway on the far left hand side of the square redundant. If a new walkway was created on the right handside to connect with the Selfridges entrance there, there would be a calmer area in the central instead of a busy set of stairs that everyone will be using. It would also create a bit more activity around that side of Selfridges which usually looks dead even on a Saturday...

As for this scheme itself, I think it's very sensible and ties in well with the new Jamie Oliver restaurant plan. Whilst I would have liked something like this elsewhere, the fact that the Bullring is the hub of our city centre and is completely lifeless at night is something that isn't very attractive. I can understand therefore why the owners want to turn the Bullring into something that is closer to a 24/7 destination with late night units. Also, the Bullring does need to reinvent itself a little bit now, as the wow factor has worn off. Surfaces started to crack and fade, dirty and become tiresome to look at. A tweak to the Bullring image is great.

With regards to the church being too hemmed in, I agree to a certain extent. There needs to be room to admire it but the current layout is in such a state that the square around it is barren and depressing. A decent landscaping scheme could give it a helping hand although it wouldn't get much sunlight... I think this proposal doesn't infringe much at all on this space and really does enhance it. The proposals still make the church the centrepiece of the complex with all windows overlooking it.

I too will miss the Spiral Cafe from this location but it was never particularly well placed anyway. It will be very interesting to see where they stick it... maybe by the new New Street station to match the curves?

Not content with killing retail in other parts of Birmingham, the Bullring now wants to asphyxiate the restaurants elsewhere business too!

I am pretty sure that the council originally made limited food provision a condition of approval of the Bullring, precisely to stop it killing off all other consumer business activity in the city. I think they were right to do so.

The Bullring also trumpted St Martin's square as a place where they would hold open air concerts and other important civic events.

There are lies, damn lies and developers promises!

As far as I can see they have not actually impinged on the actual square arround St Martins, the new stuff replaces various steps, landscaping and fountains etc.

Some more images have now been released:

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/westmidlands/news/61019-picture-gallery-how-new-bullring-restaurant-hub-could-look.html

^^ not satisfied with those crap sketchup images!

I don't think this is going to suck the life out of restaurants in the rest of the city, even with seven in total that's still only on the same level as the Mailbox or Brindleyplace.

I don't think this is going to suck the life out of restaurants in the rest of the city, even with seven in total that's still only on the same level as the Mailbox or Brindleyplace.

The Bullring is in effect a bit of a walled garden. It's somewhere you come to via roads or rail that lead to Birmingham, but in many ways it is apart from Birmingham. Forgive me for the lack of references, but over the years that have been numerous reports about how few people who travel to Birmingham to go to the Bullring, explore beyond the Bullring. Making the food offer there stronger only acts to wall it off more from the rest of the city.

I doubt it will affect Brindleyplace, and probably not the canalside at Mailbox, but what about the independent restaurants in the Chinese Quarter/Gay Village?

More to the point, Bullring would be a much better part of Birmingham if it was only part of a typical visitors experience of Birmingham. To my mind that means, yes we must improve the offer outside of the Bullring, but equally let's not allow the Bullring to become ever ore dominant than it currently is.

I don't wish to knock Bullring. It's been a success story for the city - but all is not well with how it sits and interacts with this city. I just want to see that interaction made better not worse.

-- End of rant --

I don’t agree with the argument that more restaurants in the Bullring will particularly damage other areas - not at the scale that is proposed anyway. The argument that Bullring should be restrained to ‘save’ other areas smacks somewhat of robbing Peter to pay Paul, competition should be free and fair and at the scale proposed this is a silly argument anyway.

This is an appropriate use for the area and will attract new spend from the very people who do just come shopping in Birmingham and don’t leave the Bullring now to eat and drink here (thus it is an overall win for the city). It will add vitality to the area in the evening and if anything I think it will help link the Bullring / retail area in with China town during the evening hours. The reality is Bullring is a good 15 or 20 mins walk from the other main entertainment areas and so part of the Big City plan needs to look at better linking the China Town area in with Bullring particularly given the opportunity the Markets site presents for some ‘half way in between’ entertainment / food venues.

^^ not satisfied with those crap sketchup images!

They don't look crap to me.

They're useful insomuch as they remove the clutter and confusion that the other renders have, leaving the eye free to focus on the scale, shape and proportion of the buildings. They serve a useful purpose.

The Bullring is in effect a bit of a walled garden. It's somewhere you come to via roads or rail that lead to Birmingham, but in many ways it is apart from Birmingham. Forgive me for the lack of references, but over the years that have been numerous reports about how few people who travel to Birmingham to go to the Bullring, explore beyond the Bullring. Making the food offer there stronger only acts to wall it off more from the rest of the city.

I doubt it will affect Brindleyplace, and probably not the canalside at Mailbox, but what about the independent restaurants in the Chinese Quarter/Gay Village?

More to the point, Bullring would be a much better part of Birmingham if it was only part of a typical visitors experience of Birmingham. To my mind that means, yes we must improve the offer outside of the Bullring, but equally let's not allow the Bullring to become ever ore dominant than it currently is.

I don't wish to knock Bullring. It's been a success story for the city - but all is not well with how it sits and interacts with this city. I just want to see that interaction made better not worse.

-- End of rant --

I agree generally about the Bullring not interacting with the city centre as well as it could. But to me that is problem in the design, which can't be resolved without major changes to the layout, so we are stuck with them for a long time really.

Whilst I appreciate the logic that a stronger food/restaurant offer at the Bullring means the chances of people going elsewhere in the city is lessened, I also must suggest that the chances are if someone is content with staying in the Bullring all day, then their interest in Birmingham is unlikely to extend further than a days worth of shopping/pampering, and trying to force them to other areas of the city to accommodate their need for high quality eateries and restaurants might simply create a situation where they leave the city complaining that the Bullring didn't have anywhere nice for them to eat, beyond the most predictable of chains. Which would not be good for the cities image.

So, the Bullring itself, as a major asset in Birmingham's crown/tiara, needs to keep its game up. Providing decent restaurants is part of that, and can't really be avoided, no matter how great it would be to see people swarming down Hurst St and through the Arcadian to a collection of Michelin starred restaurants, the orientation of the city centre is unlikely to be able to accommodate that sort of pedestrian flow until the Markets are reconfigured.

Because this 'hub' of restaurants and eateries is relatively small, it couldn't operate as a standalone centre, it needs to be integrated with something, and unless we wait for Martineau Galleries, Paradise Circus or Southside to come to fruition, I can't think of anywhere it would neatly slot into.

I don't think the Chinese Quarter or Hurst st will be threatened by this, they already seem to operate as their own self-contained quarter, with people specifically seeking out what they offer, rather than just wandering through.

I just think that as annoying as it may seem to put things so close to an already busy area, it's got to be done if Birmingham wants to show the maximum amount of people possible that it can offer decent restaurants in a nice setting, which can only do well to raise the profile of the city.

It would be nice to have some restaurants along Egbastion street as well in due course.

They don't look crap to me.

They're useful insomuch as they remove the clutter and confusion that the other renders have, leaving the eye free to focus on the scale, shape and proportion of the buildings. They serve a useful purpose.



The one render that was 'rendered' with textures had no clutter and confusion, it gave the project elegance and life. But yes, the others were good enough for scale, shape and proportion. But for final renders, if they were too show them at the public consultation, i would be dissapointed.

I get rashes when I see that blue filled in glass! ;) lol

There used to be that Grill restaurant where the betting shop is now (can't remember it's name). I guess for some people even though it was only round the corner from the St Martins entrance to bullring square it wasn't part of where they would visit whereas these eateries will add more incentive to come into the square aside from just looking at St Martins or going to markets (if they even get that far).

i'm with ILC too that because the Bullring was the first of what are now a flurry of major city centre shopping centre developments (Cardiff & Liverpool) for example and new centres such as Westfield (London) which have upped the game and themselves built on the success of what the Bullring did it needs to keep at it's identity and development.

I noticed the fenced off area in the underpass between Moor Street and New Street has been removed. It's the 'side' of the bullring that needs to be addressed even in most basic terms of improved aethetics for visitors to tie in with the improvement to New Street, Moor Street increasing it's footfall with forthcoming service changes on Chiltern routes and these changes to the St Martins Square side of the bullring.

out of morbid curiosity, im pretty sure the lack of restaurants in the bull ring was a planning condition to the original consent.... im sure the concern was that if they put tones of restaurants in the BR, then people would be able to shop, eat, shop and leave the BR without actually leaving the centre..... and so oit was limted to esnure people who visited the BR actually visit the rest of the city centre.... similar sentiments applied with the use of department stores..... they had to be new to birmingham to ensure they didnt compromise the existing city centre....

im curious to know if this issue has been overcome or do we think this expansion (which i feel is positive overal) will allow the BR to become a single entity within the city centre?

There is a piece in the Post which say they are looking to attract independants rather than chains.

There's also a new visual

There is a piece in the Post which say they are looking to attract independants rather than chains.

It's a great sentiment but is that really going to happen? Another Strada, Loch Fyne and a burger chain are my prediction.

I would quite like to see a Loch Fyne but at the Cube or Brindley Place rather than here. I would like them to use the draw of Jamie to get a named chef set up at the very least. Difficult to see a new start up having the money to do something well in such a high profile location.

The only independent restaurant I can think of at the bullring was Tiffin bites and sadly that didn't last long.

Speaking of restaurants coming to Brum i read that Cosmo are interested in opening in our city although i dont know much about them as a restaurant.

I like this development but question its implications on the rest of the city as the lack of choice inside the bullring forces people to go outside and look elsewhere which may reduce the people leaving the bullring even more. Im guessing with primark still outside most people will venture outside the bullring as long as it stays popular even if i cant stand the shop personally. I like the idea of this area having a nightlife which will be good for the city centre. Overall im very mixed about this development with good and bad points to it.

out of morbid curiosity, im pretty sure the lack of restaurants in the bull ring was a planning condition to the original consent.... im sure the concern was that if they put tones of restaurants in the BR, then people would be able to shop, eat, shop and leave the BR without actually leaving the centre..... and so oit was limted to esnure people who visited the BR actually visit the rest of the city centre.... similar sentiments applied with the use of department stores..... they had to be new to birmingham to ensure they didnt compromise the existing city centre....

im curious to know if this issue has been overcome or do we think this expansion (which i feel is positive overal) will allow the BR to become a single entity within the city centre?

It is one of them developments which has great positives but huge negatives and possible impacts on the rest of the city centre. However i do feel not providing food outlets in Bullring is an issue. Those who don’t want to leave bullring as you said wont, regardless of the lack of food places. In addition, there is not a wealth of restaurants within five minuets to bullring either so i see no reason why anyone would leave bullring and go that far.

out of morbid curiosity, im pretty sure the lack of restaurants in the bull ring was a planning condition to the original consent.... im sure the concern was that if they put tones of restaurants in the BR, then people would be able to shop, eat, shop and leave the BR without actually leaving the centre..... and so oit was limted to esnure people who visited the BR actually visit the rest of the city centre.... similar sentiments applied with the use of department stores..... they had to be new to birmingham to ensure they didnt compromise the existing city centre....

im curious to know if this issue has been overcome or do we think this expansion (which i feel is positive overal) will allow the BR to become a single entity within the city centre?

An understandable concern as this was at planning stage we now now have an established shopping centre to ajudge this against rather than the concerns of planners over a large proposed generic retail scheme we now are judging an evolution of the building / area over its life with a lot more facts known.

A couple of things of note being that - the bullring attracts consideraly more shoppers than was ever forecast, the existing food offers are considerbaly over subscribed with long queues for the likes of pizza hut, and that the rest of the city has developed since planning permision was granted for the bullring -the mailbox wasn't even complete when bullring was granted planning permission for example.

A website for Spiceal Street has been launched, and some more new renders have been released.

http://www.spicealstreet.co.uk/home/

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1914/spicealstreet1.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1307/spicealstreet2.jpg

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5272/spicealstreet3.jpg

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8409/spicealstreet4.jpg

This is tipped to open Autumn 2011, with the planning app going in this Autumn

FWIW I think this is really good. It doesn't really encroach on the church and I think it actually improves its setting by taking the harsh edges away. The fountain is nice but it doesn't really do much to enhance the surroundings - I would like to see it relocated though. And the spiral cafe could benefit from a better setting - it is a bit too crowded. It's a shame the tourist office is where it is - it would make a great tourist office.

Anything that gets a bit more night life around the Bullring is great and my guess is that many shoppers don't venture far out of the Bullring to eat anyway so it won't have too much of a negative effect. The rest of town will have to up its game to drag shoppers away.

I wonder whether some of the current eateries might move there and release their current units as retail?

I might be looking so hard, like spot the difference, i can't see it but where is the new water feature?

the buildings look brilliant, but what a really weird location?

Where are the trees too. This project really has not been though tout very well in some ways, in other ways it is quite interesting.

Couldn't they just put this somewhere that, like, needs improving?

The images don't show the new water feature as they haven't decided where to put it, either down the side of the new steps of somewhere near to Jamies according to the woman I was talking to at the exhibition

hope they use natural wood under the curvy canopy or elsewhere hopefully! - would look wonderful.

The images don't show the new water feature as they haven't decided where to put it, either down the side of the new steps of somewhere near to Jamies according to the woman I was talking to at the exhibition

Cheers Spread. I was wondering if maybe i'd missed it for looking.

Did they say what scale it would be and what will become of the lightcubes.

Couldn't they just put this somewhere that, like, needs improving?

This is an area that needs improving.

Or do you mean couldn't they put this in an area where they don't own the land (and doesn't form part of the bullring?) Isn't that a bit like asking why the Mailbox didn't build the Cube somewhere else?

Couldn't they just put this somewhere that, like, needs improving?

It does, like, need improving. The whole area is like a wasteland after all the shops have shut.

Isn't that a bit like asking why the Mailbox didn't build the Cube somewhere else?

They should have put it in Eastside.

EK's right about the trees. Those pine trees are a green relief on the left side. Nice design and the ribbon effect is quite delicate.

Those new renders look terriffic.

Still not happy about the one on the right near the church.

But the other two will be a fine additions to the area.

New Bullring plans set to move Marks Barfield café
10 September 2010

Chapman Taylor has unveiled plans for a new restaurant complex beside the Bullring in Birmingham – which could mean the demise of Marks Barfield’s multi award-winning Spiral Café just five years after it opened


The proposals for the shopping centre’s co-owner Hammerson are for three new restaurants linked with a curved stainless-steel “ribbon” roof and a terraced public space with water feature.

But the Spiceal Street project will mean moving the Spiral Café, now likely to be somewhere else in the city.

Marks Barfield managing director Julia Barfield said: “We are a bit bemused. Nobody has actually talked to us either from the council or from the developer.”

A planning application will be lodged next month with work on the new scheme starting at the end of the year.

James Atha, associate director of Chapman Taylor, said the café will be relocated “in agreement with the council” to a suitable location.

“The original concept was that it could be pieced together almost like a temporary installation,” he said. “It can be taken apart and moved elsewhere.”

Barfield said taking down the spiral was “technically possible” but would not be easy. She added: “I do think it would be a shame if it just got dumped in a barn and forgotten about.”

The Spiral Café, winner of a RIBA and a Civic Trust award in 2006, is formed of eight curved “ribs” enclosing the seating and serving area.

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/new-bullring-plans-set-to-move-marks-barfield-café/5005343.article

Those new renders look terriffic.

Still not happy about the one on the right near the church.

But the other two will be a fine additions to the area.
↲It won't be any closer to the church than the wall and steps are now, and those are never used due to the ramp alongside. I don't see a problem.

It does, like, need improving. The whole area is like a wasteland after all the shops have shut.



They should have put it in Eastside.

No.

No.

Because it apparently wasn't obvious enough, I wasn't seriously suggesting that the Mailbox should have built the Cube in Eastside. It was a joke, although admittedly not a very good one.

How about moving the Marks Barfield cafe to Victoria Square?

↲It won't be any closer to the church than the wall and steps are now, and those are never used due to the ramp alongside. I don't see a problem.

A wall is not a building though. The perception of open space which exists now will be lost and the church may feel hemmed in. Its like your neighbour replacing the fence in you back garden with an extension, its no closer than the fence was but it still feels different

Looking at the renders, are they also extending Nando's and Pizza Hut? Looks like their coming out more into the square

Looking at the renders, are they also extending Nando's and Pizza Hut? Looks like their coming out more into the square

It does look that way, seems as if they are extending and utilising what is now the alfresco dining area that is currently there

How about the Spiral Cafe is worked into the Centenary Square plans for the library?

Alternatively it could be relocated to Moor St or Eastside?

It's small enough to fit almost anywhere where there is a bit of dead space that needs fillign - an both Centenary Square and Eastside have plenty of dead space.

It needs to be viable economically though. How about Old Square or in front of Snow Hill Station?

I think Rotunda Square would be the best position for it business, footfall and architecturally wise it would stand out just being in the middle, but I doubt it would happen as they have temporary event stand there which im guessing will become more frequent as they wont hold them down by St Martins if this goes ahead?

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5272/spicealstreet3.jpg



Very nice :) (even if its a semi nighttime render)!

How about moving the Marks Barfield cafe to Victoria Square?

I was going to suggest exactly the same thing. :)

It would sit well on the changing gradient (as it did it Bullring) and would be a good addition to the square.

I must admit I have only just realised the area in the middle is not another restaurant but merely a canopy.

From the small renders we saw at first I assumed they were building a restaurant in the centre (near the Nelson statue), but now having seen the larger renders I can see it is just a canopy.

I must admit that does make me feel a bit better.

Popped up their yesterday and took a few photos as it is now so we can what will change.

Here is the left hand view, taken from near the church entrance (panorama so scroll across).

The new steps will come down where the green and grey fountains are.

And the two new restaurants will be to the left of the fountains, where the existing steps and spiral cafe are.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/guilbert53/Pan1S.jpg

And here is the right hand view, facing Selfridges (again a panorama).

Behind the white wall are some steps (not sure I have ever seen anyone use them).

From the renders above it seems the restaurant will be a long thin building, sited exactly where these steps are.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/guilbert53/Pan2S-2.jpg

And here is a view from the Selfridges "balcony" (or whatever it is called)

You can just see the steps going down (with the cleaner at the top of the steps) which I think is the site of the right hand restaurant.

I must admit I have always found this side a bit dead, surprised Selfridges have never done more with it.

Not sure if the restaurant nearby will improve that or make it worse. it will rather cut-off this balcony.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/guilbert53/Pan7S-1.jpg

I certainly won't miss that awful tacky white wall underneath the Selfridges balcony.

I hope with this addition and the restaurants staying open until late, around 11PM at the moment I believe? Definitely no earlier than 10PM, That the Bullring will push into having late night opening hours at least have one night where its open later than usual.

Very nice :) (even if its a semi nighttime render)!
Not only a nighttime render, but one set in a Mediterranean climate as well --- all those happy people sitting outside enjoying their after-dark apéritifs and evening meals! How often does that happen in Brum? A daytime render in chilly weather would give a more realistic impression of what the end-product will look like most of the time.

The render also raises another question which perhaps somebody can answer for me. All those windows on the terribly bland architecture that forms the western side of the Bullring look fake to me. Behind those permanently closed blinds I would expect to find a concrete wall. Do the windows really light up at night as though there is something happening behind them? Or am I mistaken --- are they in fact real windows?

That being said, I think the proposed restaurants will be an improvement on the overall streetscape. I was delighted when the design of the new Bullring partially followed the original street layout, restoring the glimpse of St. Martin's between buildings from the top of High Street, and opening up the vista as one proceeds downhill. Unfortunately the continuity of the slope is interrupted by the railings which, while not as intrusive as the awful, ugly ringroad which cut right across the entire area with no regard for its contours, still form a horizontal barrier that blocks off a view of the whole church as one descends from High Street. The restaurants should provide a sense of closure to this vista while the more centrally located steps will perhaps better preserve the contour of the slope and open up the view of St. Martin's.

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8409/spicealstreet4.jpg (http://img840.imageshack.us/i/spicealstreet4.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

These designs are stunning:)

I have always thought this area of the Bullring has never really worked as a public square because of its lack of quality food and drink places. The curvy design and quality materials seam to compliment the buildings around it really well, I just hope it doesn't get scaled down.

It is a shame all the trees are going to be swept away! A few well selected trees around the edge of the proposed seating area would add some welcomed colour and shade!

Not only a nighttime render, but one set in a Mediterranean climate as well --- all those happy people sitting outside enjoying their after-dark apéritifs and evening meals!

Note also the outdoor patios for both restaurants have no barriers around them, giving the impression anyone walking around can stroll into the outdoor eating area.

This also wont happen and those areas will be "fenced in" in some way, as is shown in the first picture I posted above of the current Nandos outdoor space.

Well if we're going to get into details like that then notice on the twilight renders that all the spotlights are on, but we all know that that won't be the case and one of them will not be working properly so it won't actually be as illuminated as they make it out to be.

Do the windows really light up at night as though there is something happening behind them? Or am I mistaken --- are they in fact real windows?

.

It's a good question. I'd always assumed they were blanks, but looking at Guilbert's pictures, you can see the M&P signs on the upstairs "windows", which implies they are a factor of the fit-out and use of the space.

That would imply that they could be windows if so desired...?

http://i56.tinypic.com/v4mp02.jpg

This bit needs more work.

This bit needs more work.

I am sure the buildings we finish up with will be nothing like what we have seen in these renders.

The canopy in the centre near the Nelson statue (that I thought was another restaurant) may not even be built.

http://www.spicealstreet.co.uk/

intro video aded to page...im pretty sure it was not there when i looked at it before

So how does this pan out then? Is this something that could start immediately after permission granted? I would have thought money would be of no object here.

Nice Video on that link. It said 2011, so i guess the aim is to be operational by Christmas next year.

So how does this pan out then? Is this something that could start immediately after permission granted? I would have thought money would be of no object here.

Wouldn't be strictly true because the developers would still have to borrow money from a bank for this. Given the fact that one of three companies that formed the Birmingham Alliance have since sold their stake in the Bullring to a pensions fund (Australian or something), it won't be so easy for them to demand an unlimited pot of money.

The Bullring has been a massive success but this shift to more eateries is a risk and banks would recognise that, especially with the current climate still.

Hammerson and Henderson are still involved but Land Securities sold their share to a bank.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1914/spicealstreet1.jpg


Concerns were raised by members of the public at the public exhibition as well as the City Council's planning and urban design officers about the extent to which the development would encroach on views of St. Martin's Church. Of particular was the view from the north, down Central Street, where it was felt that the proposed canopy would detract from the existing open and historic view of St. Martin's Church.

In response to those concerns, the propose central canopy has been removed from the proposals. Instead, additional floor lighting is proposed which will not impinged on views of the Church but will emphasise as a place to pause.

From the planning statement, personally I really liked this feature!

Re: the planning app that's gone in for this.

Spotted in planning
...
also, application for new food units for Bullring


2010/05793/PA

St Martins Square Land at Bull Ring Birmingham B5 4BW

Development of three new restaurant units (Use Class A3), extension of two existing restaurant units (Use Class A3), reconfiguration of open space, landscaping, provision of plant and associated works

Registered 13-10-2010

In response to those concerns, the propose central canopy has been removed from the proposals.

From the planning statement, personally I really liked this feature!


Funnily enough back in September I wrote in this forum

>>>>I am sure the buildings we finish up with will be nothing like what we have seen in these renders.

>>>>The canopy in the centre near the Nelson statue (that I thought was another restaurant) may not even be built.

Supposing this gets approved with no glitches and starts construction immediately, when could we expect it to start? I cant find a decision date

after walkin down there yest, it needs something, the area is looking awful already. The exterior of the Bullring really is not good, but then what can we expect?

This will be a nice addition, and the Boerma tower woul dbe nice too.

These "concerns" over the view to St Martins? Did they look at the visual like the one above? The undulating roof is exactly like that so it wouldn't get in the way - architects do think of viewlines and elevations!!

Seems like people moan over the smallest things..

Here are some photos are the Landscaping of the area, even though we will loose the spiral café, it looks like it will be replaced with good features :)

Upper Café Terrence
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1390/5102897342_e4d341f157_z.jpg

Narrative Water Wall
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1373/5102897600_9030391f35_z.jpg

View from St. Martins Church
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5102897856_2c2792f746_z.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5102898070_c754c99042_z.jpg

Central Steps with Narrative Water Wall
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1074/5102304449_f397386e79_z.jpg

Bench Seating and Greenery
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5102304745_97c18dba44_z.jpg

Green Wall at Café Terrance's
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4113/5102305595_034741a1aa_b.jpg

Living Screen and Bench Seating
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1226/5102306835_2f799ab553_b.jpg

The loss of the one canopy has made it all look a little confused, in my eyes. Almost unfinished.

I hope that is a " green living" wall on the cafe like the one at the library hoarding, It would be awful if it was decals on the window.

I would think it's real greenery - seems like it's the latest thing now and works well on Rhubarb and Cote Restaurant.

Greenery will look great ... as long it is cultivated properly & maintained.

The loss of the one canopy has made it all look a little confused, in my eyes. Almost unfinished.

i dont think that is a loss of a canopy, i think that is either a loss of a uilding, or the other building it being built at a later stage... look at the model, the other half of the development is not there at all.. ive not read the planning application yet, but im assuming this is a phased scheme?

...or maybe im wrong?!?!?!!?

oh hold on, the second section of canopy int a roof to a building? how interesting!!!!!

after walkin down there yest, it needs something, the area is looking awful already. The exterior of the Bullring really is not good, but then what can we expect?

This will be a nice addition, and the Boerma tower woul dbe nice too.

What makes you so cock sure that the "exterior" of these Bullring restaurants or the Boerma Tower will be any better?

I hope that is a " green living" wall on the cafe like the one at the library hoarding, It would be awful if it was decals on the window.

I did these living walls for AS 3D Design last year

There is an artist called Patrick Blanc who designs some really spectacular ones, google him mate

New renders showing the changes, would have looked really nice as well with this canopy, but i suppose there are some touchy people in Birmingham lol


http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1914/spicealstreet1.jpg
http://www.spicealstreet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/St-Martins-Square-View-04-100924low-1024x640.jpg


http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8409/spicealstreet4.jpg
http://www.spicealstreet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/St-Martins-Square-View-01-100924low-1024x768.jpg

very good ... i do like this scheme though ... it would seem the middlr canopy was a little bit pointless!

I guess we've finally given in to the idea of those life giving things in any new architecture in Birmimngham then... they don't even appear as an after thought now.

Will be a big gastronomical area of the city especially with Jamie Oliver's new restaurant alongside. Let's hope they are all open late in to the evening too.

LOVE IT,

hopefully it won't cost too much

New render
http://www.spicealstreet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Spiceal-Street1-1024x768.jpg

Not to keen on this side, when is the decision meant to be made, does anyone know?

I think that side compliments Selfridges quite well, but the detailing could be better...

i quite like that view...... covers up the scrap parts of selfridges!!!

What worries me is what will be behind that section in front of Selfridges .... will that exit from Selfridges have views of waste bins, etc, from the new restaurants? Hope not!

What worries me is what will be behind that section in front of Selfridges .... will that exit from Selfridges have views of waste bins, etc, from the new restaurants? Hope not!

No,

well it shouldnt be, I heard that the bins and waste from these restaurants would be sent underground to the service area of selfridges, so we wuld not see bins etc.

I'm not a fan of the Selfridges side either. It would be much better if it were incorporated into the lower balcony rather than just being plonked in front.

Saw this article in this weeks Birmingham Mail (link is from the Birmingham Post) about the removal of the Spiral Cafe

Bullring's Spiral Cafe to be removed as part of redevelopment (http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2010/12/24/bullring-s-spiral-cafe-to-be-removed-as-part-of-redevelopment-65233-27882329/)


A popular piece of architecture in Birmingham is set to be scrapped to make way for a new restaurant quarter.

The Spiral Cafe in the Bullring’s St Martin’s Square will have to be removed as part of a plan to transform the area.

A row of three restaurants will be constructed under an extended viewing platform, designed to attract more customers to the square.

The development, known as Spiceal Street, would create a hub of seven restaurants, incorporating existing chains Wagamama, Pizza Hut and Nando’s as well as the recently opened Jamie Oliver restaurant, Jamie’s Italian.

Conservationists have raised concerns about the decision to remove the Spiral Cafe, which was created by Marks Barfield Architects in 2005 to bring life to the newly created public space.

The building form is inspired by the mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci who identified natural patterns of growth found throughout the universe, from the shapes of shells and pines cones to fractal patterns within galaxies.


A shot of it from May 2009

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3640/3623357464_09f9aa1745_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3623357464/)
Bullring - Spiral Cafe (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3623357464/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Either side of the Spiral Cafe - East and West Malls

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2480/3622533871_985985bc51_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622533871/)
East Mall - Bullring (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622533871/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3610/3622673388_cf1e879d86_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622673388/)
Borders - West Mall - Bullring (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622673388/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Its a shame.. Whats the latest on this project anyway, has it been approved?

Says nothing on the planning application site, although they were aiming to make a decision on this on the 22nd. They may have had to extend it a bit due to comments made during the consultation.

In the first pic the café works very well with Selfridges ; a lot of reptilian interaction going on there .

Well it was based on shells and pine cones ...

Could see the steps / spiral cafe from a distance on the bus (on Upper Dean Street). And the steps area is still blocked off with those red barriers. Any idea why, are they not safe to climb up or down?

Any frost or snow deems the area of high "compensashun" threat.

This spiral cafe - the people who want it removed and destroyed say it's on a specific site so it can't be repositioned - it is definitely built on a flat surface with just the roof that is indented for a stepped side, so why can't it be put somewhere like Victoria Sq or maybe between Snow Hill station and SnowHill 1?

Not sure if this has been posted before, a snippet from the spiceal St website

Planning Application SubmittedI’m pleased to write that we have reached a significant milestone for Spiceal Street with the submission of the planning application to Birmingham City Council.

The consultation gave us a good insight on the proposals; what was well received and how people felt the scheme could be improved. The views towards St Martin’s Church were clearly a priority and the proposed central ‘ribbon’ roof has been removed. Instead feature lighting will be installed emphasising the open space.

The need for incorporating planting and green space also rated highly. We are retaining the existing plane trees, introducing planting on the terraces surrounding the new retail units and we are also adding seating within the open space enabling visitors to relax and enjoy Spiceal Street. The feedback has enabled us to design a stronger scheme for both the city and visitors.

http://www.spicealstreet.co.uk/blog/planning-application-submitted/

Hope ReissOmari doesn't mind me reposting the below photo here


Its a shame to see these 3 cubes and the shell café go :(

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5209/5303991749_a441edb1f3_b.jpg

I don't mind :)

When they remove the cubes and the balcony, the'll have to change those windows too, because it just won't match the whole scheme!

Hopefully we'll see some activity from the new year

I wonder if the cubes will be relocated elsewhere?

Probably end up in storage for a few years, like the rest of the city's 'hidden' sculptures. :|

I took some shots from here yesterday evening

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5241/5308890921_5111738783_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5308890921/)
Bullring - Three Cube Fountains -lit up red (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5308890921/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5081/5309480096_f7b7d4a4ec_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5309480096/)
Bullring - Spiral Cafe - early evening (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5309480096/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5205/5309483906_1a1695a85d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5309483906/)
Bullring - red lights (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5309483906/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Anyone know where the 'shell' cafe is going to be relocated?

^^ don't think it is, apparently it was built for that specific site so would be to awkward to relocate so it's likely to be destroyed according to the articles, I think the cubes would fit in well somewhere near the custard factory. Also since when did they have the glass wall lit up like that in elbrowns last pic!? I haven't been the bullring in the dark in ages

I usually see it in the daylight.

Not one of mine but by jpearce2307 (http://www.flickr.com/people/53362711@N08/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5083/5310146800_20ae8b7eca_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53362711@N08/5310146800/)
Shapes (http://www.flickr.com/photos/53362711@N08/5310146800/) by jpearce2307 (http://www.flickr.com/people/53362711@N08/), on Flickr

I think the Spiral Cafe would look amazing on Bull Street as a Tram Stop. Could put ticket machines, departure boards and seats in there.

Old Square maybe? It could do with something like this.

Now a Gloria Jean's Coffees (was this once Costa Coffee)

Shots from earlier today

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5204/5316341720_199cacfd17_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5316341720/)
Bullring - Spiral Cafe - Gloria Jean's Coffees (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5316341720/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5046/5316345066_6f7ab2a240_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5316345066/)
Bullring - Spiral Cafe - Gloria Jean's Coffees (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5316345066/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Major Planning Application

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5283/5315754929_e0a96375e0_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5315754929/)
Bullring - Spiral Cafe - Gloria Jean's Coffees - Major Planning Application (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5315754929/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5006/5316351168_652df6500d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5316351168/)
Bullring - Spiral Cafe - Gloria Jean's Coffees (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5316351168/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Old Square maybe? It could do with something like this.

In the grassy space?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/5132913930_4c1d378cfb_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5132913930/)
Old Square, Birmingham (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5132913930/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Or on this?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2639/4202928109_e2b92b8b97_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4202928109/)
Figure of Justice on the pavement of Old Square (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4202928109/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Great pics and ideas! Why is relocating this so difficult to do????? It just needs someone with some positivity! New year....new energy!

Thanks @morestoreysplease

Depends if it was designed and built for those steps.

There's this cafe in Central Square, Brindley Place on a flat surface

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3626710160_a296559ac6_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3626710160/)
Costa Coffee, Central Square, Brindley Place (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3626710160/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2773/4125654949_12ea38780c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4125654949/)
Brindleyplace Cafe - Costa Cafe - Central Square, Brindley Place - Birmingham (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4125654949/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3351/3622567519_61ba48e0c1_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622567519/)
Central Square - Brindley Place including Brindleyplace Cafe (Costa Coffee) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622567519/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

On that planning app ellbrown got a pic of it says expanding the other 2 restaurant unit, wonder if nandos and pizza hut will lose their outdoor space or if they will just expand over it for indoor use and extend the outdoor part out? Nandos deffinately needs more room the que outside there can be a joke sometimes, i dont think some people realise we have one in the library, mailbox and 5ways aswell, party people should go there cut the ques

The planning app says it may affect the Grade II* listed St Martin's Church nearby (the development site).

Nando's looked packed the last time I passed inside the Bullring.

The one in Paradise Forum didn't seem too busy today.

There's about 5 Nando's in town
Mailbox one also needs expanding!

Great pics and ideas! Why is relocating this so difficult to do????? It just needs someone with some positivity! New year....new energy!

I can only imagine it being one thing: money. The council would either have to buy the cafe building or at least cover the costs of it being dismantled and then relocated, which is a hard thing for them to justify with the sort of cuts we're seeing.

Couldn't they make it a planning condition that the Alliance pays for the relocation?

When I look at Brindley Place I wish more of Birmingham was developed in the same way. The mix of old and new is just what the city needs.

When I look at Brindley Place I wish more of Birmingham was developed in the same way. The mix of old and new is just what the city needs.

out of interest... what old are you referring too???

Probably Oozells Street School. Yes Brindleyplace is a benchmark for the rest of the city to emulate I think. Over in Eastside by using the old burnt out building in a similar situation and surrounding with good solid mix of brick colours and glass this should be encouraged. And in Digbeth to use the Typhoo Wharf as the existing block but mixed in with sympathetic new builds too. A good collection of solid blocks at at least 5-6 storeys in height should be the least we should accept in the next wave of development.

Oozels school (now the Ikon Gallery) and the church on Broad St that is now 'Flares' nightclub are the only retained buildings within the boundaries of Brindley Place however it's fair to say that the quality of Brindley Place as an area (architecturally and in urban design) is on the whole fantastic (award winning) although also rather imperfect. I think the service areas, car parking and vehicle access routes could have been better integrated - particularity to the western end.

Also The Brasshouse.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2602/4230643493_0b3ff3b105_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4230643493/)
The Brasshouse, Broad Street, Birmingham - Celebrity Restaurant - Indian Restaurant (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4230643493/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Flares (formerly the Second Church Of Christ Scientist)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2684/4230932205_524c78146c_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4230932205/)
Flares in the former Second Church Of Christ Scientist on Broad Street (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4230932205/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Ikon Gallery (formerly Oozells Street Boarding School)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3643/3673171980_bf37538dbf_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3673171980/)
IKON gallery - Oozells Square, Brindley Place (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3673171980/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Does the Brewmasters House count (or is it on the wrong side of the canal?)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2711/4385446217_3c8c512169_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4385446217/)
Brewmaster's House (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/4385446217/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Now a Gloria Jean's Coffees (was this once Costa Coffee)

Shots from earlier today

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5204/5316341720_199cacfd17_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5316341720/)
on Flickr

They should put this in Victoria Square IMO.

It's got a gently curving slope and you'd get the appreciation of the curved shape of the cafe, as we do in it's current position.

It'll be a massive shame if it's put into the all-swallowing city archive, or worse still sold to some two-bit town.

If it's going spare, I'll have it in my garden as a greenhouse. :)

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2011/01/04/call-to-honour-lady-hamilton-with-100-000-statue-in-the-bullring-97319-27927055/

BIRMINGHAM has the chance to right a historic wrong to one of England’s greatest heroes when a new statue is designed for the Bullring, it is claimed.

With £100,000 being given for a new piece of public art in St Martin’s Square, a campaign is growing to build a statue of Lady Emma Hamilton to stand facing in the direction of the statue of her famous lover Horatio Nelson.

Lord Nelson and Hamilton were arguably the Posh and Becks of their day with their every move and Lady Hamilton’s fashion, commented on in the society press during the height of their fame.

On his deathbed at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, Nelson asked that the people of Great Britain look after his mistress.

But unable to inherit from him, she ended up in the debtor’s prison at Newgate before fleeing to France where she died in 1815.

Coun Peter Douglas Osborn, history buff and chairman of the council’s planning committee, said: “It is to this country’s shame that we did not look after Lady Hamilton.

“Lord Nelson, one of our greatest heroes, bequeathed her to the nation on his deathbed.

‘‘But she ended up in a debtor’s prison.

‘‘Now we have the chance to put that right.

‘‘She could be placed looking up at her lover.”

He said that Birmingham has strong ties to Nelson, through the couple’s popular visit to the city in 1802, and as the first British city to put up a statue in his honour, in 1809.

The Tory councillor aims to persuade his colleagues and members of Birmingham’s Conservation and Heritage Panel that a Lady Hamilton statue would be a fitting tribute.

City leader Mike Whitby has already given his informal support to the proposal.

The £100,000 has been handed to the council by the Bullring as spin off cash from the development of three new restaurants in St Martin’s Square. It is to pay for a piece of public art to replace the acclaimed Spiral Cafe which is being removed for the development. The Nelson statue was given pride of place on the balcony overlooking St Martin’s Church after the Bullring was rebuilt in 2003.



Read More http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2011/01/04/call-to-honour-lady-hamilton-with-100-000-statue-in-the-bullring-97319-27927055/2/#ixzz1A5X8M9ye

Read More http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2011/01/04/call-to-honour-lady-hamilton-with-100-000-statue-in-the-bullring-97319-27927055/#ixzz1A5WzgQ1w

The Spiral Café’s Destruction will leave Brum culturally shortchanged


(As someone closely involved with the Spiral café I would say this wouldn’t I, but..)

The Spiral Café is a multi award winning building, and more importantly a very popular and unique part of Birmingham’s Architectural fabric. Its destruction would be a huge cultural loss to the city. It is being replaced by more unremarkable, commercial, relatively low-cost, high-revenue restaurants. This is not, culturally, a fair swap, It is my firm belief that this would leave the City architecturally short-changed.

It is to be scrapped with no plan for re-location elsewhere. The café could be relocated; it is constructed of a simple bolt-together frame. It is not true to say that it could only be built where it sits (see photo of frame below). It was offered to the city but this was refused on the grounds of what I believe to be spurious cost estimates. (continued below)...

can we have a little context to these massages... its sounds interesting and im sure many people will put their name to the cause.... and by the sounds of it, its urgent.....

please do tell!!!!!

The decision has been made about this scheme though, doesn't that mean its final and we're going to lose the café anyway?

it means the scheme will go ahead yes, but until the spirral cafe is demolished and destroyed, there is always the opportunity to store and relocate the cafe...

i happen to think the cafe should be relocated... there are places for it to go, Snow hill being one of them... or even the square behind the wesleyan as thats pretty barren but as always it is about money

Apologies for the half message.. I had to split it over two because it was too long. the second half seems to have been held up in moderation, probably because of pictures i linked to, which are my own.. this is what it read (apologies in advance for double or triple posting):

It is heartening to hear your suggestions on alternative locations and uses for the Café. Please keep them coming, we have precious little time.

And please if you feel strongly about saving this piece of Birmingham contact your local MP:

http://paulasmith.mycouncillor.org.uk/

or ring the Birmingham planning department to register your dissatisfaction;

Telephone:0121 303 1115

planning.enquiries@birmingham.gov.uk


I hope for a better outcome than what seems likely at present. For the city of Birmingham, and for something I worked very hard to create.


(the links should appear when the original version of this post is moderated)

or you could go to wwwdoth-o-n-e-ydotcodotuk forwardslash spiralcafe

Woodhousen

'context is that I designed the spiral cafe whilst working for Marks Barfield architects.

I'd like to believe that if enough opposition were shown the cafe *could* be saved...

I'd hold my hands up if what was being put in its stead was of architectural merit...

Brum should hold on to its cultural treasures, old and new.

jjarmusch

I'm in! Do people think that Martin Mullaney, as a fairly active councillor, or Peter Douglas-Osborn Chair of the Planning Committee might be good to email?

martin.mullaney@birmingham.gov.uk
peter.douglasosborn@birmingham.gov.uk

IMO this is a stunning and original piece of architecture and if it can be saved by being re-located then we should do everything we can to make that happen.

And if the person who designed it is telling us it's not problematic to re-locate it then that's good enough for me.

Let's do this people!

Woodhousen

'context is that I designed the spiral cafe whilst working for Marks Barfield architects.

I'd like to believe that if enough opposition were shown the cafe *could* be saved...

I'd hold my hands up if what was being put in its stead was of architectural merit...

Brum should hold on to its cultural treasures, old and new.

jjarmusch

Maybe you should get in touch with Thomas Vale Construction. I'm sure they will support your views some what.

I strongly urge everyone on this forum to campaign for the spiral cafe to be relocated. It's only small but it's one of the best and most interesting buildings built in recent years; I've always loved it. It would be a tragedy if it were to be lost.

If some old people can stop the middle section of this project being built just because of the view of St Martins church which hardly even matters, I'm sure the café won't get destroyed if who ever is controlling this can see sense..

(Sorry if there's any old people on this forum hehe) :master:

I've sent a letter to The Birmingham Post (probably too late for tomorrow's edition though).

Emailed Martin Mullaney too.

Has anyone actually asked the Bullring owners about what options may be available?

Sounds like a job for Erebus :)

I'm on it. :)

Good work people, you do your city proud... I think raising awareness of the cafe's fate is probably the best thing we can do to garner support.

more info:

The Developers - to their credit - have offered the cafe 'free issue' to anyone who wants to take it. The city refused on the grounds of cost, but no thorough investigation has been undertaken. The figure being quoted for moving the cafe is, i feel artificially high. This is acting as a disincentive for anyone to take it.

A commitment to undertake a preliminary cost estimate might be a good start. I've offered my services pro bono, but I can't speak for Marks Barfield Architects, except to say that they are as dismayed at the prospect of the loss of the cafe as I and you are.

Anything else I can help with, message me or reply here.

What do the costs involve? Are they the cost of dismantling and transport away from site?

PEOPLE, AS YOUR MODERATOR, I SERIOUSLY URGE YOU TO GET BEHIND THIS BID. FOLLOW THE ADVICE ABOVE AND PLEASE GETTING WRITTING....

It's true. He's got a hitlist and everything. He knows where you live. If you don't get behind the bid, he'll ban your arses from the entire internet!

the big red letters have power!!!

Try our very own 'Stirrer' Adrian Goldberg:

adrian.goldberg@bbc.co.uk

I can't find an email address for his Birmingham Mail column :dunno:

And what about the Civic Society?

I've emailed the planning team, Douglas-Osbourne and Maloney or whatever so far.

Great! Any way we can get this thread as a sticky on the Birmingham section?

Some more contacts - the more noise we make the more they're likely to listen:


BIRMINGHAM PLANNING DEPARTMENT

Main Switchboard: 0121 303 1115

Richard Goldborn (name was mentioned in an article about the cafe's destruction)
Gary Woodward (Regeneration Department)

BIRMINGHAM COUNCIL

Councillor Paula Smith (Lib Dem);

0121 778 6679

paula.d.smith@birmingham.gov.uk

Paula very much opposes the destruction of the cafe and would like to hear any suggestions on options for saving it.

The more objections she receives, the more power she has to act.

Paula objected to the cafe's removal. She spoke of how popular it was with the people of Brum.


BIRMINGHAM CIVIC SOCIETY:

0121 236 8110

Chairman: David Clarke

david-c@clarke-associates.co.uk

Seem very sad at the news of the cafe, more people registering objection with them will help them act:

BIRMINGHAM CIVIC PLANNING:

Paul Lister

mail@2bclear.co.uk


RIBA BIRMINGHAM

0121 233 2321

Head of Birmingham office:

matthew.dobson@inst.riba.org

Supportive of the cafe's retention as it won an RIBA award. An open letter of support from them for the cafe's retention would have some clout.

Also these guys might be worth a try...

The Landscape Practice Group
Parks & Nature Conservation
Environment & Culture
Birmingham City Council
300 Broad Street
Birmingham
B1 2DR
Tel: 0121 303 1111


thanks for everything guys, let's keep the pressure on... Tell everyone you know...

Love this building, and it generated heaps of positive press attention when it was built, Birmingham can't just "lose" something of this quality. Must get writing...

This building was on my desk calendar last year, alongside projects in Spain, Australia and Germany.

We get something that sparks world interest, and what do we do? Turn our backs on it. Beggars belief this city at times.

I've e-mailed Phil Upton at WM. He might just pick up the cause...

I love the response this is getting, if I was smart enough I'd write a letter as well!

Also just a random question, was it intentional for this to be named Spiceal Street, i'v always thought it was Special Street!

I belive possibly digbeth/ custard factory would be an ideal location for this to be relocated. (Not sure where abouts.) Its industrial yet modern exteriour would really fit in well with the history of the area.

I love the response this is getting, if I was smart enough I'd write a letter as well!

Also just a random question, was it intentional for this to be named Spiceal Street, i'v always thought it was Special Street!

No, it's always been Spiceal St, on regard that this was where spices etc, were sold by merchants in Birmingham.

I sent an email to paula and this is the response I got.

Thanks for your ideas Jake infortunately the City is not in the position to financial dismantle, uproot and rebuild elsewhere, what I personally had wished could happen would be an independant person/company who had a vbackground in heritage to look upon this as a worthwhile project in order to relocateregards Paula

would emailing lisa pilkington from estates gazette not be an option, she likes to take up these sort of fight stories...... and would open the campaign up to a different but still very relevant audience?!?!?

I love the response this is getting, if I was smart enough I'd write a letter as well!

Also just a random question, was it intentional for this to be named Spiceal Street, i'v always thought it was Special Street!

its not about being smart enough, its about being a passionate resident. joe blogs down the stress is perfectly allowed to write a letter to complain....

I got a slightly more elaborative response from paula:

"I am Chairman of the Conservation and Heritage panel for the City, and almost everyone who sits on my group has expressed serious concern over the cafe. I have been in touch with the architect who designed the spiral cafe, but our problem is trying to get someone to agree to dimantle and remove to a suitable site in order to save it. Wether an appeal could go out in the papers for a kind benefactor to come forward who has an interest in Conservation who has the ability not only to dismantle the building but a site to put it, but time is of the essence in this instance, the new build of the bullring will commence soon and part of that is the removal of the spiral cafe.
As Chairman of the CHP I voted when it came to planning to refuse, purely because they had not conditioned the safe removal of the spiral cafe."

So... appeal in the papers? Anyone with media contacts?

Would it be wasted if it was located on the site of the former "forward statue" or would it interfere with the library construction?

Maybe jjarmusch can get in touch with Paula Smith and tell her how it needs to be dismantled without damaging it (the glass doesn't really matter, it is the shell that counts).

I'd be pleased enough to see it at least go into storage for the time being, so long as it isn't sent to the scrapheap. Once that has been sorted, can we really think about where it could be relocated.

Maybe the focus of our efforts should be on Hammerson and not anyone else?

I emailed Hammerson yesterday (tried to find email addresses for Henderson Global Investors and The Future Fund but to no avail).

Peter Douglas-Osbourne has stated there are some structural problems with the composition when dismantled. He says he will pass on our concerns to Hammersons though, which is good news: will probably have more weight coming from him.

I emailed Paula, Martin and Peter through my birmingham.gov.uk email with a link to this thread showing the passion and support already here.

i'm just wondering and maybe i should know as i graduated from a planning masters, but surely the council could have made the relocation of this a section 106 right (which im assuming is still around as the CIL was not in place before labour left office) ?

they could have, or through condition....

with regard to the s106, there could be an argument to whether or not adding the relocation of the cafe as meeting the rules of reasonableness, but i think it could have been possible...

that said, the council didnt, and i think that is why paula smith said she opposed the application because there was no mechanism to relocate the building.

Thinking about a new location for the spiral cafe it occurs to me that there are a lot of potential locations it could go because of it's small size. Surely one of the wider pedestrianised streets could fit it in, what about High St, or New St. Then there are loads of locations around the city currently taken up by catering vans during the day which could be upgraded to a leased building.

Thinking more practically, and I know it's the wrong time in the economic cycle for it, but couldn't there be a development somewhere in the city which could encorpoate this into the public space around it? E.g.Golden Square or Newhall Square schemes in the Jewellery Quarter.

Article here shows that it should be practicable to dismantle and reassemble elsewhere. Reveals that there was full trial assembly before dismantling and reassembly. Might be worth citing in reference to ease of reassembly.


The cantilevered structural form, based on rigorous geometrical parameters, is ingenious. Its execution and reflects a high degree of cooperation between the team. The finished structure was achieved by the skill of the steelwork contractor who made a full trial assembly in his shop, and incorporated sufficient bolted connections to enable the dismantling, transport and final re-assembly on site.

https://steelconstruction.org/resources/design-awards/2006/certificate-of-merit/bullring-spiral-cafe-birmingham.html

Good work guys! Lets keep these suggestions coming, I've never supported anything like this before and I'd like to see a positive result.

they could have, or through condition....

with regard to the s106, there could be an argument to whether or not adding the relocation of the cafe as meeting the rules of reasonableness, but i think it could have been possible...

that said, the council didnt, and i think that is why paula smith said she opposed the application because there was no mechanism to relocate the building.

To me that just shows a total incompetence somewhere in the chain of our council, planning department or the committee. How can they just let an award winning building be scrapped without something being done to allow it to be relocated. It is not like this building can not be relocated, is old and out of date, is not fit for purpose, uses materials which are illegal or against health and safety (im not sure about the last two but i assume not)

yes but there is no planning remit to protect a building with no policy designation.... the realisty of the situation is that the building is privately owned on private land, it not protected under any statutory planning remit (listed buildings, conservation areas etc) and so consequently, the planning department have their hands tied...

also, under the rules of reasonableness, could it be argued that without protection or relocation of the shell, that the proposed redevelopment would otherwise be unacceptable??? a s106 can only be issued to make a scheme permissable, and therefore without the s106, the a scheme wouldnt me permissible...

So what we have yet again is an inadequate planning system or council which failed to protect the building through an acceptable legislative remit.

I'm not sure about the rules of reasonableness this is the first time i have heard of it. It should have been made a condition of a new application, that either the cafe was incorporated in the scheme or a suitable solution was reached (excluding demolition). if it does go into storage then it's probably the best we can hope for. There is always the Wholesale market site site where it could go, seeing as one of the partners involved in the cafe will be involved over the road.

Three food retailers have taken restaurant space at Hammerson’s proposed extension to the Birmingham Bullring


Pesto, Browns and the Handmade Burger Company have each placed under offer units of 3,000 sq ft at the 20,000 sq ft Spiceal Street extension.

Hammerson and joint owners Henderson Global Investors and the Australian Future Fund won planning consent in December for the extension around St Martin’s Square.

Subject to completion of the lettings, Hammerson is due to start construction in around six weeks.

BWD Retail and Cushman & Wakefield are the letting agents.

All parties declined to comment.

Read more: http://www.propertyweek.com/news/bullring-exention-whets-restaurateurs’-appetites/5012359.article#ixzz1CLMlb31m

Slightly dissapointed by the line up to be honest.

They are not really setting the world on fire. Browns is good but I am surprised they haven't gone for a more heritage building. Thanks for the info.

Yeah, very clever. Sign up an Italian restaurant to sit between Jamie's and Pizza Express :doh:

Just realised that Del Villaggio which will about 25m away is also an Italian.

This just gets worse.

i like pesto though...... ive been to the one in liverpool and was very impressed....

where is pizza express nearby???

in fairness, thinking of the developer, the owner, and the fact that this will represent some of the highest rents in the city, they were only ever going to be large commercials chains....

that said, its good that 2 new brands are coming to the city.

To me that just shows a total incompetence somewhere in the chain of our council, planning department or the committee. How can they just let an award winning building be scrapped without something being done to allow it to be relocated. It is not like this building can not be relocated, is old and out of date, is not fit for purpose, uses materials which are illegal or against health and safety (im not sure about the last two but i assume not)

As i say, its not really the fault of the planning dept, it is not within their remit to be able to protect a building that isnt listed....

as you can see in circular 05/05 (plannign obligations)

A planning obligation must be: (these include s106)
(i) relevant to planning;
(ii) necessary to make the proposed development acceptable in planning terms;
(iii) directly related to the proposed development;
(iv) fairly and reasonably related in scale and kind to the proposed development; and
(v) reasonable in all other respects.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/circularplanningobligations

Right this may answer a lot of questions and it seems to suggest we have no chance of protecting the cafe. A response from the planning team:

Thank you for your e-mail on 26th January concerning the loss of the Spiral Café within the Bullring complex.

Under application 2010/05793/PA, as part of a scheme for three new restaurant units and the extension of two existing restaurant units the Spiral Café is to be removed. This was approved by Planning Committee members on 22/12/2010.

It should be noted that although the Spiral Café would be lost, along with the water cubes, the current café does not operate successfully and is relatively small, providing limited seating, storage and catering facilities. The café was also a later addition to the current terrace (ref 2003/00848/PA) and was never part of the public art/realm scheme for the Bullring development.

Various solutions in terms of relocation within the Bullring site or at alternative locations were explored during the course of the application but discounted due to the specialist design of the café, which is built into the slope, with its internal counter curling under the floor slab and into its external shell. The bespoke design also means that the copper cladding cannot be taken off and reapplied onto the structure, which would cost in the region of £50,000 to re-clad in the same material. In terms of storage, as you can appreciate the Council is facing a number of cutbacks and therefore cannot afford to pay for the storage costs of such a structure until a suitable development site is available. I can assure you that the Council have spoken to business people based in the city interested in taking the frame of the café for reuse and have passed on their details to the developers.

Also, to mitigate against the loss of the café, the council secured a £100,000 contribution from the developer towards a new piece of public art in the vicinity of the Bullring, potentially using elements of cladding removed from the café. The Council’s City Design Officers, along with members of the Conservation and Heritage Panel will be working with an artist appointed by the developer on this piece of public art. For your information, the council also secured a £25,500 contribution towards a new wayfinding scheme for the City Centre.

As well as this, the new scheme is considered to be a positive move to promote Birmingham as a ‘world class’ city. If you go to the City Council’s website and access planning on-line and enter the application number (2010/05793/PA), you can view some of the approved drawings, visuals and the design statement.

To summarise the new design, the approved scheme consists of;
*Three new restaurant units in two buildings arcing around St Martins Square having a curved standing seam metal roof. The curved roof is intended to be ribbon-like in design, in order to define the perimeter of St Martins Square and frames St Martins church along with an extended terrace, close to the Nelson statute with recessed lighting into the terrace floor.
*Between one of the curved roof buildings would be a new set of stairs (in a similar location to the existing stairs), with a blue granite water wall containing engraved text relating to the history of the area.
*In the location of the existing terrace and Spiral Café (on the rear of one of the new buildings) would be a green wall containing eight different species of plant, with areas of small hedges and seat terracing, similar to the existing terrace.

nice of them to respond really......

does the architect have anything to respond to this?!?!

i like pesto though...... ive been to the one in liverpool and was very impressed....

where is pizza express nearby???

in fairness, thinking of the developer, the owner, and the fact that this will represent some of the highest rents in the city, they were only ever going to be large commercials chains....

that said, its good that 2 new brands are coming to the city.

Pizza express is on the 3rd floor opposite Hugo boss, there are no other restaurants up there

Nice to see new brands to see the city although I was hoping for a F&B's or a TGI's on the site. Great that construction will start within 6 weeks but a loss about the spiral cafe.

When Nandos and Pizza Hut are extended do we think they will remain open or will they have to close due to the food and dust etc?

I was hoping Ruby Tuesday to open, there is already handmade burger Co. at Brindleyplace.

http://www.rubytuesdayuk.com/

And in the mailbox!

And in the mailbox!

thats gourmet burger kitchen

I'm really pissed! Pesto, suits the bullring but Browns is an up-market venue. Im sorry but who the f**k is going to say let's go to Browns piano evening on a saturday night in the BULLRING. They spent nearly 1 million on the Manchester conversion, why didn't they choose a more promenent location i.e. ground floor of the Grand Hotel on Colmore Row. M&B have sometimes no idea what so ever.

The worst thing is, Miller and Carter which is opening at the mailbox was in a bidding war with Browns for the Mailbox unit. So a pretty standard steakhouse gets the mailbox and Browns get's down graded to the Bullring...... Where is the sense in that?

Great work guys in trying to save the Spiral Cafe. It really is an interesting and unique structure but having read the response Tonkster got, it does seem that the Council really have tried to find a solution.

So. I'd like to propose a Back-up Plan. Can anyone who's really good with a camera take as many pictures from as many different angles of the Cafe as we possibly can - Post them here, on FlickR, photobucket and wherever else and email the links or even the physical files to Bullring,the BM&AG and the Council so that they can be used in any future exhibitions?

I'm really pissed! Pesto, suits the bullring but Browns is an up-market venue. Im sorry but who the f**k is going to say let's go to Browns piano evening on a saturday night in the BULLRING. They spent nearly 1 million on the Manchester conversion, why didn't they choose a more promenent location i.e. ground floor of the Grand Hotel on Colmore Row. M&B have sometimes no idea what so ever.

The worst thing is, Miller and Carter which is opening at the mailbox was in a bidding war with Browns for the Mailbox unit. So a pretty standard steakhouse gets the mailbox and Browns get's down graded to the Bullring...... Where is the sense in that?

I know what you mean, maybe the thinking behind it was with it being so close to Selfridges, Cos, Tommy Hilfiger etc. the customers would be there?

Nice to see new brands to see the city although I was hoping for a F&B's or a TGI's on the site. Great that construction will start within 6 weeks but a loss about the spiral cafe.

When Nandos and Pizza Hut are extended do we think they will remain open or will they have to close due to the food and dust etc?

I'm quite surpised that Chiquitos was never approached, something a bit more alternative (and just as expensive as Jamies lol) could have brought something a bit more alternative to this area.

http://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/Northgate/DocumentExplorer/documentstream/documentstream.aspx?name=public:0901487a80c9fbb2.pdf&unique=474248&type=eplprod_DC_PLANAPP

So they did look into it after all

Look at this one also, where it could have been re-located..

http://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/Northgate/DocumentExplorer/documentstream/documentstream.aspx?name=public:0901487a80c9fb7e.pdf&unique=474248&type=eplprod_DC_PLANAPP

http://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/Northgate/DocumentExplorer/documentstream/documentstream.aspx?name=public:0901487a80c9fbb2.pdf&unique=474248&type=eplprod_DC_PLANAPP

So they did look into it after all

That leads to the conclusion that it can't be relocated on-site - but it could still go off-site?

what i dont understand is that the council has said it would cost the council approximately £50,000 to relocate the cafe..... so they are getting rid of it. but to compensate against the loss of the cafe, they are charging the aplicant £100,000 in a section 106.... when cant that money be put towards the relocation?

i think the fact its small and doesn't operate succesfully works against it. May be difficult to find a tennant.

i think the fact its small and doesn't operate succesfully works against it. May be difficult to find a tennant.

Surely not outside Snow Hill Station though, especially with all those potential 'business' punters heading to and from work at peak times. This could have made a decent Coffee and Cookies kiosk rather than a poorly thoughtout coffe house...

I received an email response from Martin Mullaney today.

To his credit, he agrees that The Spiral Cafe should be saved, and perhaps located in one of the city parks. He therefore contacted the City Centre development team to see if it would be possible to relocate the structure of the Spiral Cafe and he sent me their response which was basically the same information that Tonkster posted on January 28th

Additionally, they revealed that "the developers intend to start work on the project in March, with completion in time for the run up to Christmas." They also offered to put Councillor Mullaney in contact with Hammersons "if you feel that our Parks Department might be able to take on the frame of the cafe."

Again, due to the high costs cited by the planning department, his conclusion was: "I'm afraid we are therefore in the hands of a benevolent investor if this structure is to be salvaged."

My letter to The Birmingham Post about the same subject (sent before the info from the planning department came to light) was published today too, but I assume if there is any response it will be similar to what Tonkster and Martin Mullaney have already received.

You never know, some wealthy benefactor may read my letter in The Birmingham Post? Dream on...

I received an email response from Martin Mullaney today.

To his credit, he agrees that The Spiral Cafe should be saved, and perhaps located in one of the city parks. He therefore contacted the City Centre development team to see if it would be possible to relocate the structure of the Spiral Cafe and he sent me their response which was basically the same information that Tonkster posted on January 28th

Additionally, they revealed that "the developers intend to start work on the project in March, with completion in time for the run up to Christmas." They also offered to put Councillor Mullaney in contact with Hammersons "if you feel that our Parks Department might be able to take on the frame of the cafe."

Again, due to the high costs cited by the planning department, his conclusion was: "I'm afraid we are therefore in the hands of a benevolent investor if this structure is to be salvaged."

My letter to The Birmingham Post about the same subject (sent before the info from the planning department came to light) was published today too, but I assume if there is any response it will be similar to what Tonkster and Martin Mullaney have already received.

You never know, some wealthy benefactor may read my letter in The Birmingham Post? Dream on...

Yes ... dream on .... you've got more chance of a wealthy "benefactor" reading this here than in The Birmingham Post ..... no-one reads that at all these days! :lol:

Excellent letter Shel :cheers1:

do use 'online folk' have access to the letter....?

^^ Apologies, here it is...

Dear Editor

While I largely welcome the plans for the new Spiceal Street development in the BullRing as a positive plan to re-activate the public space in the middle of the development, the news that the award-winning Spiral Cafe is to be removed and destroyed leaves me with a sense of foreboding that our city has not learned from the mistakes of the past.

The Spiral Cafe is a stunning and original piece of architecture, and whilst being small in scale, it is widely regarded as an important and innovative contribution to the fabric of the city centre. Certainly one the city should do all it can to preserve. There have been comments made publicly that it would be too problematic or costly to save. But according to the designer who has been posting his thoughts online, it is a modular, 'bolt-together' construction that could be dis-assembled and re-sited elsewhere without great difficulty. As for cost of relocation, could it not be part of a Section 106 Agreement with a developer on a future project?

I think the Spiral Cafe would thrive if it was relocated to another area in the city centre. There have been suggestions of the square in front of Snow Hill Station as just one possible location for it. There must be many more existing or planned developments that would welcome such an attractive and ready-made addition to their environs.

I'm appealing to those responsible to use some imagination and creativity and to come up with a way to save this unique bit of Brum for us and for future generations to enjoy.

:applause:

This might not be news to some but I walked passed today, and the cafe has been closed.

Hi All,

Apologies for not posting for a few days, my life (and my computers) is/are in boxes, which are, in turn, in storage.

What great support you have shown for the Cafe. I have been sending people links to this thread so they can gauge the strength of public opinion. Your letters and emails are, I'm pretty sure, beginning to have an effect... the more awareness we can raise the better our chances

Some possible leads have come to light with the increased publicity you have generated. One of these though is not in Birmingham. I strongly believe that the cafe should stay in the city for which it was designed and not be lost to the capital. If you feel this way a note to the council would strengthen our case.

I am trying to push for a thorough and realistic cost audit of the cafe relocation, in order that the cost will no longer be a disincentive. Though I still believe that time is very much against us (on site in march with the demolition works), if we don't let up there is the smallest glimmer of hope.

and what a victory for internet democracy and Brum that would be...

There's a good chance I'll be in the city in the next fortnight. 'Be good to meet anyone who wants to for a coffee.

jjarmusch

stick it in the Oaklands Rec next to the new Tesco, overlooking the city. That's what I'd do. That place has the best views in town.

^^It'll meet the same fate as every stolen car that finds itself there within a couple of days. :(

I told my tutor about the cafe at uni today and she was aware of it due to an award it won to do with the copper (she did a lot of research into copper for another project and the cafe was one of the buildings that she used in her research). She seemed really shocked that they were planning to demolish it and I think she's looking to get involved in saving it as well. I'm going to spam Hammerson's email accounts...

When I heard about it, I glad that I got to take photos of it.

What is the fate of the three cubes fountain?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2428/3622676288_da1452d278_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622676288/)
Three Cube Fountains - near West Mall - Bullring (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622676288/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5241/5308890921_5111738783_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5308890921/)
Bullring - Three Cube Fountains - lit up red (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5308890921/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

There being scrapped as well.

It used to attract visitors to the Bullring to sit on the nearby benches, and on the walls of the fountain itself.

There being scrapped as well.

"They're"


A contraction of "they are" :)

(sorry, but this being England ... and speaking English .... our English is worse than that in America, Canada & Australia!)

They used to attract a shitload of litter as well. But I will miss those too. I just find the cafe a greater asset to Birmingham than the fountains. The cafe was probably the first building to make me realise the architecture didn't just apply to skyscrapers and massive shopping centres.

Lol I am so crap at spelling, as for the fountains I won't miss them. They are ok, however not really a great loss. Could the cafe not be relocated along the road inbetween the markets and the Bull Ring? Is that still the Bull Rings land?

Lol I am so crap at spelling, as for the fountains I won't miss them. They are ok, however not really a great loss. Could the cafe not be relocated along the road inbetween the markets and the Bull Ring? Is that still the Bull Rings land?

Soz BB .... I've been doing the kids homework!!! :nuts:

Edgbaston Street (this shot is from the wrong end though)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3357/3621863631_a56e74af19_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3621863631/)
Bullring - Edgbaston Street (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3621863631/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

That's the one I think it would suit well in the area. And no problem sandblast, I need to learn to stop being lazy and spell correctly.

When I heard about it, I glad that I got to take photos of it.

What is the fate of the three cubes fountain?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2428/3622676288_da1452d278_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622676288/)
Three Cube Fountains - near West Mall - Bullring (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/3622676288/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5241/5308890921_5111738783_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5308890921/)
Bullring - Three Cube Fountains - lit up red (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ell-r-brown/5308890921/) by ell brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/ell-r-brown/), on Flickr

Thank you so much for showing me where Jamies is, im going there tonight and didnt know how to get there!

I don't really find those cube fountins that amazing or inspiring, they make you feel in trouble in a way if they are red all the time?

I'm doing a bit of Environmental Psychology at the moment, was wondering what peoples views are on the colours here and what it makes you feel.

cheers

Hi All,

I struggled to post this link previously, but it's a picture of the cafe frame showing the bolt together arrangement, and a paper written to explain the form of the cafe:

http://www.h-o-n-e-y.co.uk/spiralcafe/

jjarmusch

Bullring improvement plan gets the go-ahead
by Alun Thorne, Birmingham Post
Feb 8 2011

A scheme aimed at attracting more restaurants to the Bullring has been given approval by planners.

The Spiceal Street scheme is set around St Martin’s Square and will create in the region of 11,500sq ft of restaurant units and enhancements to the landscaping and public realm.

Work is scheduled to start on the extension later this spring and completion of Spiceal Street is anticipated for winter 2011.

Designed by Chapman Taylor, the scheme comprises three new catering units, the extension of two existing units, a feature green wall, planting and a new water feature as part of the improved public realm. The scheme will also enhance pedestrian links from St Martin’s Walk to St Martin’s Square.

Turley Associates supported Hammerson with the planning application.

Tim Walley, General Manager at Bullring, said: “We are thrilled to have been granted approval for the Spiceal Street development and look forward to offering our shoppers a new dining experience and evening destination in the heart of the city centre. We envisage work will begin in the next few weeks as we look towards an opening date in winter 2011.”

Bullring, which opened during 2003, is owned in a three-way joint venture between Hammerson, Henderson Global Investors and Future Fund.



Read More http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2011/02/08/bullring-improvement-plan-gets-the-go-ahead-65233-28130949/#ixzz1DOFbsus5

I take it, that its meant to say winter 2012?

Hmm 6 months ish seems about right to me, they will probably work 7 days a week to be honest especially in the early and late stages

Next steps

In February 2011 we received planning approval from Birmingham City Council. Work will begin in the next few weeks on the site once a contractor has been appointed. Please continue to visit the website during the next few months as we keep you updated with the progress of the build, upload new images of the site and will reveal the new restaurants that will be coming to Bullring as part of the development.

AND I dont know if this actually means anything or if its just someone using the name bullring on the comment page but...

Helen says:
September 13, 2010 at 12:39 pm
http://www.marksbarfield.com/project.php?projectid=11 excellent project but where does the Spiral sit in all of this?

Bullring says:
September 13, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Hello,

Thanks for your comment. The Spiral Cafe will be relocated either at Bullring or within in the city in a location yet to be agreed.

http://www.spicealstreet.co.uk/blog/food-glorious-food/ At the top of the comment page

It seems like a genuine reply from the website people, but before they deemed the relocation unviable.

Hopefully they have actually got plans to relocate it and its just been the press assuming the cafe will go, we can hope!

^^Well, the council are saying it's going to go and the Bullring owners have not said they've found a solution to relocate it...

Sorry but not read that far back but am I the only person that is against this being built?
In Birmingham City Centre there is too much emphasis on the Bull Ring with people coming to the City only for this reason and not visiting other great locations (few i know). But i believe most people will just shop and eat at Bull Ring without having seen other parts of the city. I know the open space by the fountains is not great but at least its open, i don’t think after the build there will be much open space?

Also the cafe; I went there for a coffee last month and spoke to the guy working there and said that the spiral was a listed building. If this is the case, surly you can’t just dismantle it? or can you? It will be greatly missed as it was a good meeting point as it was unique.