New jobs promised if voters OK transit
By KENNETH KNIGHT | The Tampa Tribune
Published: September 22, 2010

PEBBLE CREEK - In an attempt to showcase the benefits of a 1-cent sales tax increase for mass transit, a representative from Hillsborough County's public transit authority is promising the creation of thousands of new jobs, if the referendum passes Election Day.

Katherine Egan of HART told members of the New Tampa Chamber of Commerce at Mulligan's Irish Pub at Pebble Creek Golf Club last week Hillsborough County has an opportunity to add more than 1,400 new or sustained jobs annually during the next 20 years.

That would occur if county voters approve a referendum to increase the county's sales tax by one penny on each dollar to pay for local rail and an expanded bus system on Nov. 2, Egan said.

The finding was based on a county-funded study to show the economic impact of expanding existing service, adding light rail, reducing congestion and improving and building roads. The project would stimulate jobs in construction and related fields, she said.

Egan saw firsthand how Dallas benefited after the city approved a light rail system when she lived there, she said.

She recalled private dollars being used to build a major shopping complex and other commercial properties near the rail line in Dallas. Egan envisions the same for Hillsborough County and Tampa, where 53 miles of streetcar lines crisscrossed the city nearly 100 years ago.

Egan contended county residents would see enhanced bus service and capital improvement projects within months, if the rapid transit system is approved.

The plan would include 495 miles of new service for light rail, bus rapid transit, new local bus routes, more express buses, flex circulators for personalized service, and expanded paratransit for disabled riders.

It would be 2018 at the earliest before the first phase would open.

A northeast corridor that includes the University of South Florida is among the initial three route options. The others under consideration are a downtown line and one that would extend west to the West Shore business district.

The reaction from the audience of about 20 chamber members to Egan's presentation was mixed.

Matt Palmer of Tampa Palms said he planned to vote for the rapid transportation proposal on Election Day.

"There are a lot of people in New Tampa who need bus service more than you think," he said.

Said Iravani, owner of an engineering and environmental consulting firm in Heritage Isles, agreed, saying "The concept is right. You need public transit."

Karen Goss of United American Realty said she was leaning toward voting no but would conduct more research before making a final decision.

Goss said she thinks most of the new jobs would be government related rather than generated by private companies, a prospect she opposes.

New Tampa chamber members John and Nancy Kimmel of West Meadows said they have yet to hear a convincing reason to support it.

"We are finding out they are asking for money but not giving us answers," John Kimmel said.

He was dissatisfied with Egan's response to his question about the impact of the 1-cent sales tax increase on area businesses, he said.

Egan said the county had estimated the increase would cost the average family an extra $144 annually, but she did not have figures on the financial impact to businesses.

Ray Kearney of Tampa Palms said he planned to vote no because the referendum lacked a sunset provision. It would only be a matter of time, he said, before the next sales tax increase proposal comes along.

"In 10 years we will be talking 9 cent or 10 cents" sales tax on a dollar, Kearney said. "It seems like a bottomless hole."

Meanwhile, construction is under way on a $42 million project to widen to eight lanes Bruce B. Downs Boulevard from Palm Springs Boulevard to Pebble Creek Drive.

The project has the blessing of many New Tampa residents, who seek relief to traffic congestion on the stretch of Bruce B. Downs that carries 60,000 vehicles daily between New Tampa and Wesley Chapel in south Pasco County.

The county's long-term vision for Bruce B. Downs through New Tampa would include light rail, if the mass transit referendum passes.

http://northeast2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/22/new-jobs-promised-if-voters-ok-transit/

Some are just stuck in this whole "Less Spending, Less Taxes, Less Government" phase in America.
Yes, these people are in fact idiots.

The plan would include 495 miles of new service for light rail, bus rapid transit, new local bus routes, more express buses, flex circulators for personalized service, and expanded paratransit for disabled riders.

It would be 2018 at the earliest before the first phase would open.
Who the f*** is editing these reports?

No, it will not be at least 2018 before anything opens you out-of-date morons.



Ray Kearney of Tampa Palms said he planned to vote no because the referendum lacked a sunset provision. It would only be a matter of time, he said, before the next sales tax increase proposal comes along.

"In 10 years we will be talking 9 cent or 10 cents" sales tax on a dollar, Kearney said. "It seems like a bottomless hole."
lol... Sorry, but the last people who should be bitching about taxes paying for infrastructure are the losers in New Tampa, whose unsustainable suburban lifestyle is literally subsidized by the city's urban dwellers.

Now is the time to get on board the future
By JOE O'NEILL Tribune Correspondent
Published: September 22, 2010

Timing, arguably, is everything. You can make a case, for example, that the Tampa Bay region could use a modern mass transit system. Thirty years ago. Something to do with reining in sprawl, getting ahead of the clean air curve and positioning the area, especially the business hub of Tampa, for high-density development and the attraction and retention of business.

Instead, rail was railroaded and ridiculed. Remember "Commissioner Choo-Choo"? Ed Turanchik does. And Tampa now rivals Detroit as twin major metro markets sans viable mass transit. But intriguingly - and ironically - enough, Tampa is on schedule to become a terminus of the nation's first high-speed rail line. The one between Orlando and here that the feds are largely underwriting. That's on track to roll into downtown in 2015.

But then what? What will the Orlando-to-Tampa train connect to? The promise of light rail or the prospect of buses? The 21st century or the 20th?

Much rides quite literally on the upcoming Nov. 2 referendum, including regional signals to adjacent counties. Light rail - along with road projects and expanded bus service - hangs in the precarious balance. During a worst-in-memory recession. Talk about timing.

The editorials and op-ed pieces are all over the print media. There are TV spots and Jim Davis-voice-over robo calls. The transit-tax issue - and light rail is the unquestioned lightning rod - is that controversial, that polarizing and that important for the area's future.

And add this subplot. The Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority is saying that a key light rail route between downtown and Tampa International Airport could be more than a progressive promise in 2015 if the referendum passes. In fact, it could be up and running by 2015, three years earlier than previously planned. Revenue from a 1-cent sales tax increase could be leveraged for light rail instead of waiting for matching federal funding first.

That would be pragmatic policy and progressive leadership. And candidly it's also savvy, pre-referendum politics.

Time is not an ally for a city and a region that has long lived in a transportation time warp. An operational light rail route in 2015 - instead of 2018 - should matter. Especially when it's in time to complement the Orlando-to-Tampa high-speed rail route that is coming here no matter how the referendum vote goes.

All that remains to be determined is what century the line will encounter - just five years from now.

http://northeast2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/22/ne-now-is-the-time-to-get-on-board-the-future/#comments

Who the f*** is editing these reports?

No, it will not be at least 2018 before anything opens you out-of-date morons.
The latest article I posted kinda makes it better, but the lack of knowledge of wtf is the real timeline is going to throw some people off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvaMSxmASLw&feature=channel

ABC did a review of Phoenix's line

--Joey
The vid makes a good point, the weather is almost the same in Phoenix to Tampa. Do mind that we have the humidity, but its still around 105 degrees there this time of year, and gets to 115 in the middle of the summer.

I think our region just has a lot of people that complain a lot, that's it. :D

Here is a link to a relativly new blog about rail development in Tampa. It looks to be managed by Moving Hillsborough Forward.

http://mobilitymike.blogspot.com/

Steve

Transit tax gets some thumbs down
Thursday, September 23, 2010, 9:13am EDT

Opponents of Hillsborough County’s proposed 1 cent sales tax increase for transit and road improvements see poor timing as an issue. Raising taxes in a recession is a bad idea, they said as they came together Wednesday, especially in the wake of higher state license fees and the possibility of the Bush tax cuts being allowed to expire at the end of the year.

Former Hillsborough commissioner Brian Blair was among the group voicing the arguments for voting against the proposal on the Nov. 2 ballot. While transit-oriented development might benefit a select group of developers and property owners along the rail corridor, “nobody has done a study on what this is going to do to other businesses in the county,” Blair said.

The local opponents were supported by out of towners, among them Randal O’Toole of the Cato Institute and a Heritage Foundation visiting fellow.

Plans such as the one on the Nov. 2 ballot and systems in place in other parts of the country turn transit agencies into “land use czars,” O’Toole said. “It’s social engineering,” he said, that attempts to pry people from their single family homes and into dense developments that resemble those found in communist Eastern-bloc states.

O’Toole also criticized property tax waivers and tax increment financing given to developers. A referendum on giving property tax waivers to new and expanding businesses is also on the Nov. 2 ballot.

Wendall Cox, a St. Louis-based transportation consultant and visiting fellow at the Heritage Foundation, said light-rail transit “doesn’t serve any place well except downtown.”

Cox said pro-rail supporters fail to consider the increasing numbers of people who telecommute. “Don’t think for a minute light rail will reduce traffic congestion.”

Former Gainesville city commissioner Ed Braddy of the American Dream Coalition described the transit effort as “the politics of envy” because Tampa wants what Charlotte, N.C., Phoenix and other cities have, whether Tampa needs it or can afford it. Braddy painted backers of the proposal such as Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio as elitists trying to dictate lifestyle choices to suburban residents.

Local speakers such as Karen Jaroch and Sharon Calvert of the group NoTaxForTracks criticized the proposal as a redistribution of wealth to “downtown corporate interests” from more heavily populated areas of the county outside Tampa.

The pro-tax, pro-transit Moving Hillsborough Forward, the political wing of the Tampa Bay Partnership, poked holes in those arguments and criticized the out of town speakers as the “anti-transit troubadours.” MHF has touted the pro-transit views and visits of former Charlotte, N.C., mayor Patrick McCrory.

More than two dozen members of the Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce have been riding the light rail transit system in Phoenix this week during the group’s annual Benchmarking trip. The have posted a blog and videos.

The tax proposal would direct 43 percent of the revenue to light rail, 32 percent to increased bus service and 25 percent for road improvements. It would not apply to groceries or medicine and is capped on the first $5,000 of large purchases.

Tourists will pay an estimated 15 to 20 percent. The resulting 8 percent sales tax would be the highest rate in Florida.

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/blog/2010/09/transit_tax_gets_some_thumbs_down.html?ana=e_du_pub

And we're suppose to take the opposition serious with comment like THAT!?!?!

http://wedu.org/transportation/

The webcast from the presentation the other night is up :)

--Joey

Oh man. I can't believe that I missed the opportunity to slap Randall O'Toole in the face.

Gah!

You better take the opposition serious because they have the easy to sell talking points. They love harping on the "social engineering" angle, but the reality is as land value increases in South Tampa even more, the only place for the lower middle class will be way out north of USF and east of Brandon. How much will all the anti-tranist folks like spending even more time in their cars as they commute in to work for their managers and business owners in SoTampa?

If you go to the 1:13:00 mark you can see me roll my eyes at what this idiot is saying, .. the whole .. "how am I going to save time if I have to wait for the train, walk to my destination..." blah blah blah , Next to the mo fo's that say it's going to carry criminals I think what this dick said is one of the dumbest arguments.

If you go to the 1:13:00 mark you can see me roll my eyes at what this idiot is saying,

That is hilarious! 1:13:22 is just about where you can see it, :lol:

Steve

Another point of interest from the last article is the fact that groceries will not be subject to the tax increase. So if anyone brings up, "But the poor and low class won't be able to afford the increase" (which is just ridiculous in the first place), bring that up.

If you go to the 1:13:00 mark you can see me roll my eyes at what this idiot is saying, .. the whole .. "how am I going to save time if I have to wait for the train, walk to my destination..." blah blah blah , Next to the mo fo's that say it's going to carry criminals I think what this dick said is one of the dumbest arguments.
That was great!

Another point of interest from the last article is the fact that groceries will not be subject to the tax increase. So if anyone brings up, "But the poor and low class won't be able to afford the increase" (which is just ridiculous in the first place), bring that up.

I think it is also worth mentioning that the poor are the most likely to get CRUSHED when gasoline prices get back to $4 and $5 a gallon.

Also if you only have one car that you and your wife use to commute and it breaks. What do you do?

Everyone benefits from this including the poor.

--Joey

These anti-transit morons should really shut up. Oh and the comment about light rail being the equavalent of outdated trolleys really cracks me up

I think it is also worth mentioning that the poor are the most likely to get CRUSHED when gasoline prices get back to $4 and $5 a gallon.

Also if you only have one car that you and your wife use to commute and it breaks. What do you do?

Everyone benefits from this including the poor.

--Joey
That's another thing, car maintenance! I got about $900 in car repairs I'll need to get soon for my car. Imagine if all I needed to rely on was public transit, that's $900 I could spend for something else.

I can't remember the amount, but I saw a figure somewhere about how much the sales tax increase would cost a person earning at the federal poverty level. It was low, like $70 or something. I know that for the average taxpayer, the amount the tax will cost is roughly $140 a year. (and think of it like this, a sales tax is the only way to ensure that renters, tourists and everyone else pay in towards this plan). Considering how much the tax will raise towards finally getting our transportation system in significantly better shape than it is now, it's awfully hard not to favor the transit plan.

That's another thing, car maintenance! I got about $900 in car repairs I'll need to get soon for my car. Imagine if all I needed to rely on was public transit, that's $900 I could spend for something else.
Exactly I am a car enthusiast and I support mass transit, it's cheaper in the long run and doesn't put as much reliance and stress on the car.

I can't remember the amount, but I saw a figure somewhere about how much the sales tax increase would cost a person earning at the federal poverty level. It was low, like $70 or something. I know that for the average taxpayer, the amount the tax will cost is roughly $140 a year. (and think of it like this, a sales tax is the only way to ensure that renters, tourists and everyone else pay in towards this plan). Considering how much the tax will raise towards finally getting our transportation system in significantly better shape than it is now, it's awfully hard not to favor the transit plan.
If it wasn't the sales tax, it would had been the gas tax. Property taxes would probably get a whole of a lot more opposition. So I'm happy it will be the sales tax, means I'll contribute to a better transportation system for Hills. every time I head into Hills. and to Tampa!

I see on TBO that they are on Sunday, running a piece of Light Rail in Charlotte (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/24/241445/coming-sunday-charlotte-light-rail-leads-to-develo/c_2/#comments)

I think we should make a concerted effort to hit the comments early and hard. The tribune leaves comments by default from oldest to newest. If we all posted 1 comment I think we could make the front page a monolithic support.

I don't know how many people read the comments but I think for fence sitters well reasoned calm arguments in favor of rail are positive.

By the by, in the WEDU townhall the lady from the Tampa912 project argued that we need to not look at Phoenix or Charlotte because they are "new" and are having a "honeymoon" phase. She incorrectly said Charlotte and Phoenix are both two years old. Charlotte's started back in 2007. There is very little "novelty" left. It is what it is, a first class convenient commuter system by day and a nice way to get in and out of uptown by night.

--Joey

Hillsborough to become more involved in Pinellas rail talks?

By David DeCamp, Times Staff Writer
Posted: Sep 24, 2010 05:52 PM

Hillsborough and Pinellas county transit officials have begun talks about how to shift more authority to the Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority, especially over rail service in Pinellas County.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/hillsborough-to-become-more-involved-in-pinellas-rail-talks/1123949

I had an idea to come up with some glib responses to anti-rail critics.

1.) We need to be filling our buses to capacity before we build rail.
That would be like saying until we have all day traffic jams, no more roads should be built.

2.) Rail can't be moved once it is installed if there are population shifts - (I stole this from the Mobility Mike blog) Right, the same way we move around interstates when populations shifts occur.

I am trying to go through Charlotte Observer articles from the Lynx startup time to see people saying that only 1,000 people would ever ride yada yada. So far most of their articles are for purchase. Anyone have any ideas?

I think it would be powerful to say, this is what people said about Charlotte's system (because they really were identical. I remember following those columns like crazy because I new how similar Charlotte and Tampa were demographically)

--Joey

If it wasn't the sales tax, it would had been the gas tax. Property taxes would probably get a whole of a lot more opposition. So I'm happy it will be the sales tax, means I'll contribute to a better transportation system for Hills. every time I head into Hills. and to Tampa!

I do not disagree, but a gas tax could never be enough to fund a full system like we are planning. It might pay for some, and some nifty bus expansion, but not a LR system. HART examined that idea, but the income was too low and to variable. A sales tax really was and is the only way to go.:cheers:

Steve

I had an idea to come up with some glib responses to anti-rail critics.

1.) We need to be filling our buses to capacity before we build rail.
That would be like saying until we have all day traffic jams, no more roads should be built.

2.) Rail can't be moved once it is installed if there are population shifts - (I stole this from the Mobility Mike blog) Right, the same way we move around interstates when populations shifts occur.

I am trying to go through Charlotte Observer articles from the Lynx startup time to see people saying that only 1,000 people would ever ride yada yada. So far most of their articles are for purchase. Anyone have any ideas?

I think it would be powerful to say, this is what people said about Charlotte's system (because they really were identical. I remember following those columns like crazy because I new how similar Charlotte and Tampa were demographically)

--Joey


3. Comment: Transit is just more wasteful government spending that we would have to have subsidies forever that won't ever pay for itself.

Response: Right just like highways are also government subsidies, and have to constantly be expanded and repaved with MORE government money since they ALSO will never be able to pay for themselves.

Parks are also an "endless government subsidy that never pays for itself". So is education and medical care. And most of all, law enforcement.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/26/na-charlotte-sees-train-as-asset/#comments

TBO article is up. Get a commenting :)

--Joey

Ah shit guys, they relocated the article.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/26/charlotte-rail-leads-to-millions-in-development-of/c_2/#comments

--Joey

Ah shit guys, they relocated the article.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/26/charlotte-rail-leads-to-millions-in-development-of/c_2/#comments

--Joey
Seriously? Some people have lives beside commenting on website articles. I'll just repost my original post, I got some studying to do.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/26/na-charlotte-sees-train-as-asset/#comments

TBO article is up. Get a commenting :)

--Joey
Yeah, they moved the article so that it would no longer be posted with a first page full of sensible, objective, positive responses in favor of the transit plan...

Now the new one is much more in line with what the Trib wants to see... Idiocy run amok, and people being nasty to anyone who tries to write anything sensible or reasonable...


This is BULLSHIT... Blow them up with as many comments as you can muster!

^^
That's another reason why I don't even read the Trib anymore. I don't even go to the website period anymore. When I want to read the paper, its the Times.

Oh, and btw, speaking of the Trib. USF ditched the Trib machines on the Tampa campus in favor of SP Times, NY Times, & USA Today.

Yeah, they moved the article so that it would no longer be posted with a first page full of sensible, objective, positive responses in favor of the transit plan...

Now the new one is much more in line with what the Trib wants to see... Idiocy run amok, and people being nasty to anyone who tries to write anything sensible or reasonable...


This is BULLSHIT... Blow them up with as many comments as you can muster!
It's funny that the commenters (is that right? lol) have been calling the Trib "liberal" for posting articles in favor of light rail when they're pretty much conservative in their views. Sows the state of insanity at this time with many in this country. It scares me actually.

I've been having fun laying into those morons while I watch football today... Imo, no one opposing transit should go unchallenged at this point.

Another one... Pound these morons!!!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/27/na-light-rail-and-jobs/#comments

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/28/na-first-light-rail-line-could-extend-north-past-t/#comments

Another one...

--Joey

Not sure if anyone else has noticed, but the new TECO Line station is essentially underneath what was Tampa's second foray into fixed guideway public transit - the People Mover. The new station is well under construction and should be done in a little over 30 days. The old People Mover station is now the City Parking Division offices.

Steve

I remember the People Mover. Justin Cozart used to have a page all about the People Mover too. I miss his site :(

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/28/na-first-light-rail-line-could-extend-north-past-t/#comments

Another one...

--Joey
They should make it a bus service first. I think we're getting just a little ahead of ourselves with light rail. USF-DT-TIA will be first, then we will extend and add new lines after that.

They should make it a bus service first. I think we're getting just a little ahead of ourselves with light rail. USF-DT-TIA will be first, then we will extend and add new lines after that.

It's only a mile further and it will reach a major corridor in Hillsborough ave. I think its a great Idea.

It's only a mile further and it will reach a major corridor in Hillsborough ave. I think its a great Idea.

Agreed. Plus this is all on TIA property, unless I am mistaken. The cost would be minimal and the hassle of running a bus service would not be worth it to most people IE, get to the bus, take the bus to the terminal, transfer to light rail.... This is the first step to bring the line all the way to Linebaugh, which is relatively easy once you cross Hills. Ave. as TIA owns the tracks (from what I have been told). TIA REALLY wants the line to go through its property and all the way to Linebaugh.

Steve

Agreed. Plus this is all on TIA property, unless I am mistaken. The cost would be minimal and the hassle of running a bus service would not be worth it to most people IE, get to the bus, take the bus to the terminal, transfer to light rail.... This is the first step to bring the line all the way to Linebaugh, which is relatively easy once you cross Hills. Ave. as TIA owns the tracks (from what I have been told). TIA REALLY wants the line to go through its property and all the way to Linebaugh.

Steve

You heard right.
http://propmap3.hcpafl.org/main.asp?cmd=ZOOMFOLIO&msize=380&folio=0273200000

Agreed. Plus this is all on TIA property, unless I am mistaken. The cost would be minimal and the hassle of running a bus service would not be worth it to most people IE, get to the bus, take the bus to the terminal, transfer to light rail.... This is the first step to bring the line all the way to Linebaugh, which is relatively easy once you cross Hills. Ave. as TIA owns the tracks (from what I have been told). TIA REALLY wants the line to go through its property and all the way to Linebaugh.

Steve
If that's the case, then I'm all for it.

If that happened, I wonder if TIA would later seek to build its own garage at up at Waters and/or Linebaugh? Park in the garage, get a free ride to the airport...

Maybe a good sign for the referendum. According to the Hillsborough county supervisor of elections website, there are almost 60,000 more registered Democrats in the county than Republicans (Democratic : 285,592 * Republican : 225,865) and there are 162,948 considered Other.

I realize the referendum isn't as clear cut as party lines but it's a decent indication... It's going to be a close vote.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/29/na-transportation-options/

Another one. I think we will be in daily article mode until the 2nd.

--Joey

I just signed up for the Siemens event at MOSI. I can't wait to go on Oct 10 :)

CubanBread: I agree, it will be a close vote. I just hope it passes. Right now, I'm still somewhat pessimistic.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/29/na-transportation-options/

Another one. I think we will be in daily article mode until the 2nd.

--Joey
I think it's adorable that in the span of just a few days, we've already run the morons into the ground so hard that for the most part, the only thing they bother writing now is pathetic personal attacks on transit proponents.

A week ago, a transit article's comment section was little more than dozens of regressive morons circle jerking each other with nobody to hold them accountable to reality. And now, with just a handful of us keeping the facts straight, the same crowd of morons is all but silenced.

Keep it up!!! The less BS lies that are allowed to stand as fact, the less readers are misinformed.

some of the comments make me want to pull my hair out!

wish i was there to make a fuss, guys! :)

One More..

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/30/na-council-members-to-discuss-mass-transit-tax-wit/

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/30/hillsborough-commission-candidates-stress-jobs-eco/

I really do believe our comments are doing something. I haven't seen the m ultiple pages of lies and BS that I was seeing only a week or so ago. I think they've realized that the supporters are getting tired of their same old crap and we're going to do something about it. Just another month of this and November 2nd will be here. Shame I'm in Pasco, you guys know how my vote will be. :)

some of the comments make me want to pull my hair out!

wish i was there to make a fuss, guys! :)


Hey you can still log in and comment!

On the northeast leg, Hillsborough Area Regional Transit has considered buying right-of-way from CSX Corp. (NYSE: CSX) along 22nd and 30th streets between downtown and USF. But the freight railroad won’t sell just a few miles of its corridor.

The only way to obtain the track would be to buy a 97-mile stretch of line that runs through Hernando, Pasco and Hillsborough counties before turning west and crossing into Pinellas, said Mary Shavalier, HART planning and program development chief.


Read more: Light-rail route options near definition as referendum nears - Tampa Bay Business Journal

I guess I-275 is going to be the route.

--Joey

^Makes more sense anyways imo. These first two lines will later become the main trunk line, and needs to be as fast as possible. Following I-275 makes that a cinch.

Maybe this is the wrong section, but what road improvements do they have in mind with the penny tax. Any shovel ready projects?

Maybe this is the wrong section, but what road improvements do they have in mind with the penny tax. Any shovel ready projects?

This should be Here:http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=995427&page=6

But, to answer your question:

Hillsborough County priorities
Subtotal $588.1 million
- Bruce B. Downs Boulevard, widening Bearss Avenue to County Line Road, $18 million
- Lutz Lake Fern Boulevard, Boulevard of the Roses to Dale Mabry Highway, $16.6 million
- Van Dyke Road, Tobacco Road to Whirley Road, $50 million
- Citrus Park Drive Extension, Sheldon Road to Country Way Boulevard, $56 million
- Intersection Projects, intersection improvements countywide, $76 million
- Lithia Pinecrest Road, SR 60 to Lumsden Road, $8.3 million; Lumsden Road to - Bloomingdale Avenue, $82 million; Adelaide Avenue to Fishhawk Trails Drive, $71 million
- I-75 South County Interchange, County share only. Explore location, feasibility, and partnership with FDOT, $35 million
- U.S. 301, SR 674 to Balm Road; total estimate is $50 million; It is expected to be a 50-50 cost sharing with FDOT, $25 million
- 22nd Street, main street project (Fletcher Avenue to 131st Avenue), $3.6 million
- Town 'N Country, main street project Paula Drive, (Town N Country Boulevard to Hanley Road), Ambassador Road, (Powhattan Avenue to Hillsborough Avenue), $3.5 million
- Brandon Main Street, main street project Pauls Drive (SR 60 to Feeder Road), $7.6 million
- Cross Creek Boulevard, Cory Lake Boulevard to Morris Bridge Road. Contribution to the city of Tampa, $4.5 million
- West Shore Boulevard, Gray Street to Boy Scout Boulevard, $23 million
- Sun City Center Roadway Improvements, repair existing sidewalk fall hazards at stormwater inlet locations. Repair roadway regional drainage system. - - - - Potential Golf Cart Lanes, $8 million
- Gornto Lake Road Extension, Town Center Boulevard to SR 60, $8 million
-I-75/Gibsonton Drive Interchange Improvements, FDOT project to improve access ramps. Estimates are preliminary. Possible cost sharing with FDOT, $25 million
- I-75/Big Bend Road Interchange Improvements, FDOT project to improve access ramps. Estimates are preliminary. Possible cost sharing with FDOT, $40 million
- 19th Avenue and Shell Point Road, Resurfacing and addition of paved shoulders/bike lanes (U.S. 301 to EG Simmons Park; 32nd Street to 21st Street and connectors), $9 million
- Big Bend Road, I-75 off-ramp to Simmons Loop Road, $5.5 million
- Countywide Paved Shoulders/Bike Lanes, $12.5 million

Plant City priorities
Subtotal $84.07 million
- Alexander Street Extension, I-4 to Paul Bauchman Highway, $35 million
- Sam Allen Road, Alexander Street to Park Road, $44.4 million
- Turkey Creek Road, Airport Road to Sydney Road, $4.67 million

City of Tampa priorities
Subtotal $28.8 million
- 22nd Street, Fowler Avenue to Riverhills Drive, $11 million
- 22nd Street, Hillsborough Avenue to 21st Avenue, $9.8 million
- Seventh Avenue, 22nd Street to 50th Street, $8 million

Temple Terrace priorities
Subtotal $9 million
- Downtown Redevelopment Street, Main Street (Bullard Parkway to Chicago Avenue and Chicago Avenue from 56th Street to Springdale Place),
$1.5 million
- 78th Street Reconstruction, Harney Road to Temple Terrace Parkway, $3 million
- Neighborhood Area Streets Reconstruction,Three neighborhood areas north and south of Bullard Parkway, $1.6 million
- 56th Street Sidewalks, Fowler Avenue to Fletcher Avenue, $1.9 million
- Telecom Parkway Extension, Present terminus to Morris Bridge Road, $1 million
Source: Hillsborough County Public Works Department

I like this article, shows the cost saving of light rail and improved transit.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/in-downtown-charlotte-a-car-free-option-awaits-travelers/1125349

A little late on this one, but I'm busy looking at a job at the time this came out than being on the computer waiting for the oppurtunity to lie about light rail. ;)

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/01/011416/both-sides-of-hillsborough-transit-tax-issue-see-e/news-metro/

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/1-cent-tax-for-transportation-is-money-well-spent/1125337

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/in-charlotte-tampa-sees-its-vision-for-light-rail/1125351

They jumped on this one before us, but I think we can make a strong comeback.

^Seriously!

People, this is the last month before the election... If you give a damn about us finally having transit in this area, we all need to be talking up transit 24/7 with everyone we can find willing to read or listen.

^^
I wish I could join in on that discussion. But I work full time & attend school on the side. I barely have time to even post here or update my website. :P

^^
I wish I could join in on that discussion. But I work full time & attend school on the side. I barely have time to even post here or update my website. :P

You don't have to go to the extent Me, Joey, Jason or Mike go to, but even if you posted the obligatory "VOTE YES!" or something even that little bit is an addition to the positive.

I'll join in after I take care of some house stuff.

I was actually surprise to get a compliment from one of the opposition about my post. Kinda surprised me, but it's good to know some on that side isn't all mindwhipped in what to believe. :)

I'll join in after I take care of some house stuff.

I was actually surprise to get a compliment from one of the opposition about my post. Kinda surprised me, but it's good to know some on that side isn't all mindwhipped in what to believe. :)
I guess I already commented on there..... haha

I'll like to continue what Jason was saying.

Guys and gals (we might have some girls viewing lol), we're a month away from the November elections. Just like for candidates, things will be picking up before Nov. 2nd. Who knows how hard the oppostion will come out fighting, but we all need to do our part in getting this approved and having the voters knowing whats up. If we don't, it's likely the lies from the opposition could convince the voters that light rail is something bad and will fail. We don't need that, Hillsborough doesn't need that.

My suggestions to you guys are to bring up the referendum any time you can, like Jason said. Also, keep commenting on the articles and make sure we can comment before any of the opppsition does. There's an article that we commented first on and not one of the opposition has commented on light rail with more lies. That's what we need! Another suggestion is to send in "Letters to the Editor" for both newspapers. The thing that is difference between the comments and a Letter is that both the people that read the articles on the internet and actually read a newspaper will see the support. I don't know what's better though, sending a letter per day or just sending all our letters at once? Readers seeing a bulk of support for this referendum I believe would be better off than doing a letter from a poster on here per day. What's the best plan?

Letters to the Editor are extremely important but so are comments. I think we need to make a strong effort to fill the first page of comments on TBO. The Times thumbs up/down voting makes being first less important.

--Joey

Two more

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article1125337.ece

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/02/na-transit-plan-supporters-to-hold-teleconference/

--Joey

I don't really like the Thumbs Up/Down ability either, but right now my comments have more "Ups" then "Downs". Thanks! :)

I forgot what newspaper stand I saw it on, but I believe it's the Times thats doing a special tomorrow on light rail.

I like the voting, because we are a group and can boost each other... lol...

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/03/co-business-gets-onboard/

And first comment! Lets just hope they don't make a new article with the same thing while I'm asleep.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/03/co-vote-yes-on-transit/

Another one...

--Joey

Picked up this article from the USF website.

Light Rail Projects Focused On Community Awareness
Light rail station designs created by USF architecture students will be on display at community outreach meetings sponsored by HART.

By Jenna Withrow

USF.edu News Writer



TAMPA, Fla. (Sept. 13, 2010) – The work of students at the University of South Florida School of Architecture and Community Design is helping create awareness and facilitate educated debate about a timely Tampa Bay issue: light rail transit.



During the last weekend of August, architecture students stayed up at all hours of the night designing light rail stations in the all-school charette competition.

Click here to view a slideshow of some of the projects.

The student groups gathered together again on Friday, Sept. 10 to learn the results of the competition. A jury including SACD professors, city of Tampa officials, a Hillsborough Area Regional Transit (HART) official for strategic planning, and a member of the Tampa Downtown Partnership selected three winners and three honorable mentions. The winning teams split $3,000 in prize money.



The members of the first place team were: Derek Homan, Hsuan Kuo, and Andrew Loper. The second place team included students Joanne Fiebe, Ashley Garrett, Erika Group, Dana Nilesen, Nick Pastor, and Adam Skwirsk. Members of the third place team included Jonathon Anderson, Ladina Badraun, James Gilman, Alex Rios and Martha Sherman.



Three teams also received honorable mention for their designs, including: the team of Higor Arruda, Sobieslaw Fedyk, Juan Felipe, Ryan Swanson, and David Zawko; the team of Delia Cananillas, Becky Frye, Danile Haughton, Robert Kuhn, Michael Marti, and Andres Moguel; and the team of Erik Colon, Eli Pano, Derek Pirozzi, Camille Rivera, and Ashley Young.



Beyond a cash prize, an even bigger award will give the students well-deserved exposure in the community. Several of the students’ design schemes will be on display at HART community outreach sessions over the next two months.



“Up until this point, HART only had maps of the proposed light rail alignments. Now, the community can start to envision the potential of light rail in the Tampa Bay area. The students’ designs will help people begin to understand what they are voting on,” said Trent Green, associate professor of Architecture and Urban Design.



For SACD student Alex Rios, who was a member of the third-place team, the competition was about creating an identity for light rail in Tampa Bay.



“We wanted to change people’s minds about what light rail transit is. Because it is new to Tampa, we wanted to make it a landmark and give it a presence, instead of hiding it in the background,” Rios said.



Each year, the charette competition provides SACD students with opportunities to apply concepts they learned in the classroom to pressing situations in their community. In years past, students have designed bus transfer stations for HART, cost effective dual housing for the city of Lakeland and bat houses for Lowry Park Zoo.



This year, students were asked to design light rail stops for various locations throughout Hillsborough County. Each group received a specific location along the proposed rail alignments: half worked along the proposed I-275 alignment and the other half worked on the proposed CSX alignment.



When designing their stations, students had to keep several key issues in mind. Students were required to incorporate a waiting area with benches; water fountains and pedestrian lighting; one sustainable feature; a public art display; a bike path and rack; and an information kiosk, among other things. The station design needed to blend in with surrounding buildings and reflect the area’s culture.



“This is a timely issue for our community. People don’t know what the light rail will look like and who it will serve. They want more information; they want to know if this is worth their investment. My hope is that the students’ work will provide another level of information for the community,” Green said.



The student light rail schemes will be posted on the SACD website.



On November 2, Hillsborough County voters will decide whether to increase their sales tax by one-cent on the dollar to pay for light rail and other transportation improvements. For more information on light rail, visit this special report page.



Jenna Withrow covers student activities and events at USF. She can be reached at 813-974-4014.

http://usfweb3.usf.edu/absoluteNM/templates/?a=2751&z=127

Here I was thinking the opposition on the websites were out of touch with reality, but then I stumbled onto Hosler's commission campaign site and meet a whole new world of stupidity at its finest. I dare you to look at his "20 Reasons why to vote No on the sales tax increase" without bashing your head against your desk. Even at Reason 1, I knew I was dealing with stupidity....

www.hoslerforhillsborough.com/

I love how people that are against rail are always saying that buses are better. OK, well how about we drop rail from the equation and vote on a great bus system? Oh, of course they would be against that too.

Steve

You should never directly compare LA with Tampa, but I think it would be handy if someone either in the City, HART or TBARTA to start coming up with videos such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/user/lastreetcar

It might help the sales effort. The little crappy 2 minute thing the Times did was rather lame and soundbite oriented in my mind.

This October and November, between the Rays being in the playoff's and the Transportation referendum, I think the stress might give me an ulcer lol. Anyone else get the feeling that this referendum feels like a championship game of some sort haha

Here I was thinking the opposition on the websites were out of touch with reality, but then I stumbled onto Hosler's commission campaign site and meet a whole new world of stupidity at its finest. I dare you to look at his "20 Reasons why to vote No on the sales tax increase" without bashing your head against your desk. Even at Reason 1, I knew I was dealing with stupidity....

www.hoslerforhillsborough.com/

:cripes:

I just don't get how can people be some damn backwards. Whatever I just saw a commercial to vote yes on this referendum. I just hope it does pass. I will make sure I vote for this!!! And make sure all of u do too.

The real key is to get others to vote.

dp

The real key is to get others to vote.

Yes, especially with all the misconception and lies out there.

Tonight at 6:30pm there is going to be a talk on Florida Matters (89.7 WUSF) on the transit referendum.

Steve

You know, it is not irrational to oppose the referendum, especially with the halfassed way those campaigning in favor of it have behaved. Maybe they should have had a real plan, maybe they should have had some of the rail go into the county (rather than conveniently set up a county-city argument), maybe they should be responsive to people contacting them, and maybe they should have gotten some people who are not connected to the south Tampa power structure to try to sell the plan.

IF it fails, blame Iorio, Davis, and those folks. They have run an awful campaign. If it passes, it will be in spite of them.

Frankly, I think the proposed plan is pretty weak. I might vote for it anyway just to get it going, but it is really weak and Hartline and the planners are about as unresponsive to the voters as bureaucrats can be.

Vote no because it has not been campaigned the way you want it to be? Risk the economic benefits because campaigning could had been better? That's more stupid than half the crap I have heard on SPT and the Trib.

^Seriously... Everyone running HART will be gone in a few years regardless, but the county's transportation needs aren't going anywhere.

The reason I think of voting No is because I am not sure I want to give a billion dollars to such incompetent people whose plans are so bad that they will waste a lot of the economic benefits a good plan would bring. I will probably vote for it, but if I do, it will be with gritted teeth and a lot of anger. I have wanted rail for 25 years - longer than many of you have been alive - but I didnt think that our "leaders" would be such self-serving, incompetent asses. I thought they may actually have a plan and may actually want what is best - not cheapest and best only for their political futures. BUt then I was young when I started advocating for rail; I have grown up since.

The various ideas (since there is no plan) pretty much suck -and the fact that they had to be dragged, last minute, screaming, to connect the airport shows what you can expect.

Really, I am not obligated to vote either way nor am I obligated to just accept the plan because Pam wants a feather in her cap - not matter how tattered - before she leaves. I am not obligated to accept that the MPO ignores every idea anyone comes up with. I am not obligated to like Moving Hillsborough Forward because they completely ignore anything I have sent them. They are typical, arrogant south Tampa politicians. . . They are the reason this vote is close.

^Can't argue with that... But again, we can only play the hand we're dealt.

You guys know me. I f-ing hate this place directly because of the huge local population of blithering idiots we have to put up with, but my kid and parents are here and that's that. So long as I'm here, I'm going to vote for whatever I think is best for the community and to hell with the politicians.

Smiley is correct that not running it out to at least Brandon hurts the proposal and sets up a ready made argument against the plan. Also, from my POV, generally there has been a very poor job explaining what exactly the system will be. This is partially due to the system needing a significant mix of resources.

Basically in town you need traditional LTR like you see in Charlotte/ West and DT LA, something that runs on the surface with lots of stops to service the CITY of Tampa. This would be for basically Fletcher to Interbay (eventually) and Ybor to the airport. The longer runs out to Brandon and Westchase ought to be more of a DC-Metro/MARTA model with limited stops and perhaps elevated when possible. Plus you should have better circulating buses, but honestly with the other two, you could skimp on the buses. Someone coming in to DT from Brandon should be able to get on a park and ride at Brandon Town Center and be in DT with maybe only two stops in between.

The reason I think of voting No is because I am not sure I want to give a billion dollars to such incompetent people whose plans are so bad that they will waste a lot of the economic benefits a good plan would bring. I will probably vote for it, but if I do, it will be with gritted teeth and a lot of anger. I have wanted rail for 25 years - longer than many of you have been alive - but I didnt think that our "leaders" would be such self-serving, incompetent asses. I thought they may actually have a plan and may actually want what is best - not cheapest and best only for their political futures. BUt then I was young when I started advocating for rail; I have grown up since.

The various ideas (since there is no plan) pretty much suck -and the fact that they had to be dragged, last minute, screaming, to connect the airport shows what you can expect.

Really, I am not obligated to vote either way nor am I obligated to just accept the plan because Pam wants a feather in her cap - not matter how tattered - before she leaves. I am not obligated to accept that the MPO ignores every idea anyone comes up with. I am not obligated to like Moving Hillsborough Forward because they completely ignore anything I have sent them. They are typical, arrogant south Tampa politicians. . . They are the reason this vote is close.

Or rather, why it will end up failing in the end.

And if you'll take a look at whats goin around in the HSR thread, you'll better start looking into the reality that if Rick Scott wins the governor's race, he may try to kill off or at least significantly delay HSR.

Risk the economic benefits because campaigning could had been better?

And one more thing - I am not risking the economic benefits, the politicians and bureaucrats are by not putting the lines where they should go and how they should go - so that they are choking development that would come naturally (Kennedy, anyone?). By not running it up Dale Mabry to Carrollwood, where there is right of way already, bad traffic and LOTS of people - as many as the city of Tampa, basically. By not having it go to the airport (Pam's original plan), by not having HSR go to the airport, by not diversifying the economy, by having crappy development rules - Pam's friend and Mr. Miller's (of airport fame) wife in charge there, by wasting time on the "Boulevard of the Arts" and money on two waying downtown streets in stead of giving people breaks to renovate and innovate downtown, and on and on.

Won't the completed rail system reach additional suburban areas? The plan could be better, but I still say vote yes. Even the preferred route along I-275 hits most of the major destinations and has potential for TOD. It's worth the yes vote.

Won't the completed rail system reach additional suburban areas? The plan could be better, but I still say vote yes. Even the preferred route along I-275 hits most of the major destinations and has potential for TOD. It's worth the yes vote.
Yeah, which I don't understand the criticism from smiley in the first place. I think the plan to connect the airport, downtown, and University of South Florida is a smart plan. Even Charlotte mentioned including a route to TIA was a good plan for the whole light rail system. And after this phase, light rail is planned to reach to Brandon, South Tampa, and the Citrus Park area. Right now, I'm interested in connecting the areas that need it and make the most sense. And I don't see Brandon being a better first choose over TIA or USF, I just don't.

[...] by wasting time on the "Boulevard of the Arts" and money on two waying downtown streets in stead of giving people breaks to renovate and innovate downtown, and on and on.

I think two waying downtown did two important things.

1.) Made it easier for people that aren't used to downtown to navigate in it. Speaking from personal experience (ie my family) I know that the fact that some streets are one-way make it less desirable for them to go downtown. Trying to get where you need to go becomes more complicated if you can't turn down every street.

2.) It distributes traffic more evenly. Other than major North/South routes like Ashley, Tampa, Florida, etc which have remained one way, the variety of routes on East/West routes assures that if you are walking on an East/West street you'll have people near by which is important for projecting a safe atmosphere. It also slows traffic down slightly making it a little more pedestrian friendly.

--Joey

Yeah, which I don't understand the criticism from smiley in the first place. I think the plan to connect the airport, downtown, and University of South Florida is a smart plan. Even Charlotte mentioned including a route to TIA was a good plan for the whole light rail system. And after this phase, light rail is planned to reach to Brandon, South Tampa, and the Citrus Park area. Right now, I'm interested in connecting the areas that need it and make the most sense. And I don't see Brandon being a better first choose over TIA or USF, I just don't.

1. I support going to TIA - the point is that they saved it for the last minute. It was NOT part of the original plan. Why? Because the planners are incompetent.

2. Somehow they added New Tampa at the last minute. WHy? Because they don't care about the county and don't care about the vote (the city has a lot fewer people than the county).

3. It does not go to Citrus Park - it runs out to Pinellas.

4. It does not go to Carrollwood - they say there will be BRT - but no one ever said they want BRT. The local plan for Carrollwood calls for rail, but the planners don't care.

5. Who knows when it might get to Brandon?

6. The TOD around the interstate will be far less than around Kennedy or even Cypress. They are caving to business owners on Cypress and Kennedy. It is not planned for maximum development return. It is planned for maximum names in the newspaper.

7. The roads in the referendum do nothing for Carrollwood and Town and Country . . . brilliant.

8. Even though rail is going to New Tampa, there is still money for Bruce B Downs - why do they get to double dip?

All politics are local. In this case extremely local. Whoever is running this is stupid - they have built in arguments to vote No rather than building in arguments to vote Yes.

1.) Made it easier for people that aren't used to downtown to navigate in it. Speaking from personal experience (ie my family) I know that the fact that some streets are one-way make it less desirable for them to go downtown. Trying to get where you need to go becomes more complicated if you can't turn down every street.

2.) It distributes traffic more evenly. Other than major North/South routes like Ashley, Tampa, Florida, etc which have remained one way, the variety of routes on East/West routes assures that if you are walking on an East/West street you'll have people near by which is important for projecting a safe atmosphere. It also slows traffic down slightly making it a little more pedestrian friendly.

Everyone I know who works downtown - and that is quite a few people - hate the two way traffic - they took lanes out and parking spaces (not to mention when people double park for deliveries or to drop someone off they block the whole road). It clogs traffic, not distributes it. Good thing to make people not want to have their offices downtown. That will make it develop.

^^
Ha, look at what St Pete has done :P

Everyone I know who works downtown - and that is quite a few people - hate the two way traffic - they took lanes out and parking spaces (not to mention when people double park for deliveries or to drop someone off they block the whole road). It clogs traffic, not distributes it. Good thing to make people not want to have their offices downtown. That will make it develop.

Count me in on that sentiment. Also our local and state leaders didn't ask for squat from the stimulus bill. Florida almost came in last for stimulus funds. 275 is still stitting half done. How can I trust them (our leaders) with more of our tax money??

1. I support going to TIA - the point is that they saved it for the last minute. It was NOT part of the original plan. Why? Because the planners are incompetent.
No, because of politics.



3. It does not go to Citrus Park - it runs out to Pinellas.
Citrus Park would take wholesale redevelopment to get anything beyond cursory park-and-ride traffic at the rushes.

4. It does not go to Carrollwood - they say there will be BRT - but no one ever said they want BRT. The local plan for Carrollwood calls for rail, but the planners don't care.
Carrollwood, much like Citrus Park, would take wholesale redevelopment to get good ridership going. And it would be politically very difficult, if not impossible.


6. The TOD around the interstate will be far less than around Kennedy or even Cypress. They are caving to business owners on Cypress and Kennedy. It is not planned for maximum development return. It is planned for maximum names in the newspaper.
This is BS though imo. The Kennedy route was too far out of the way for getting to TIA (and thus too slow), too hard to get routed into DT, too slow and too cramped. Getting a double track line running down Kennedy quickly and safely was not going to happen unless it was elevated, which is a political impossibility and too costly anyways.

Kennedy should get BRT from the DT hub, through the CBD, all the way to Westshore, and then up to Cypress to the LRT station that will be around there.


7. The roads in the referendum do nothing for Carrollwood and Town and Country . . . brilliant.
Totally agree. Roads in long since developed areas should be brought up to snuff before we go expanding our reach into new areas. If we can't keep up with what we already have, then obviously we should not be stretching the road grid out even further.

8. Even though rail is going to New Tampa, there is still money for Bruce B Downs - why do they get to double dip?
I think it's because the money is already there in coming years, they would just use the transit funding to accelerate construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smiley View Post
1. I support going to TIA - the point is that they saved it for the last minute. It was NOT part of the original plan. Why? Because the planners are incompetent.
No, because of politics.

Politics and competence go hand in hand. If they were competent they would point out the problem and have sway.


Quote:
3. It does not go to Citrus Park - it runs out to Pinellas.
Citrus Park would take wholesale redevelopment to get anything beyond cursory park-and-ride traffic at the rushes.

Indeed. I was pointing out the error in someone else's post.


Quote:
4. It does not go to Carrollwood - they say there will be BRT - but no one ever said they want BRT. The local plan for Carrollwood calls for rail, but the planners don't care.
Carrollwood, much like Citrus Park, would take wholesale redevelopment to get good ridership going. And it would be politically very difficult, if not impossible.

This is incorrect regarding ridership and political will. There is right of way on Dale Mabry in Carrollwood. THere is a large population with a lot of parking on Dale Mabry and DM sucks going into town. There is also demand that is demonstrated in the Regional Plan, the neighborhood association, etc. It is just that no one is listening. Frankly, the low density strip stores are prime for redevelopment as the population around them has grown quite a bit since they started.


Quote:
6. The TOD around the interstate will be far less than around Kennedy or even Cypress. They are caving to business owners on Cypress and Kennedy. It is not planned for maximum development return. It is planned for maximum names in the newspaper.
This is BS though imo. The Kennedy route was too far out of the way for getting to TIA (and thus too slow), too hard to get routed into DT, too slow and too cramped. Getting a double track line running down Kennedy quickly and safely was not going to happen unless it was elevated, which is a political impossibility and too costly anyways.

Kennedy should get BRT from the DT hub, through the CBD, all the way to Westshore, and then up to Cypress to the LRT station that will be around there.

I agree to disagree, but think this needs to be stated - the plan goes down Cypress to Trask - there is nothing on the north of Cypress, nor will there be. There are homes and NIMBYS and Jefferson HS. THere is little to the south. HART says they will connect Westshore Mall and the offices near there by bus . . . doubt it. Westshore has parking and offices all around it. It is a logical point - more logical really than International Plaza - though I like the idea of connecting it too. Even the Trib article pointed out that the Phoenix line goes down a road much like Kennedy - even Cleveland is better than 275 - at least those areas already are set up for development - 275 goes through residential neighborhoods. If you think you have seen NIMBYs now . . .

So it sounds like the I-275 route is not going to use the median based on the call. I opted not to get on the air because I was using google voice so I didn't get a chance to clarify absolutely but it sounded like from David Armijo's comments that HART will be using the sides of I-275. I have a hard time understanding how that works with exits and the like.

--Joey

So it sounds like the I-275 route is not going to use the median based on the call. I opted not to get on the air because I was using google voice so I didn't get a chance to clarify absolutely but it sounded like from David Armijo's comments that HART will be using the sides of I-275. I have a hard time understanding how that works with exits and the like.

--Joey

Then what is the HUGE median going to be for on 275? They built it and the rest will be be built with huge medians. Half the cost of the road is/was for right of way.

I assume for Light Rail but that once it turns north to USF that may not be the case. David Armijo said something about learning best practices from other regions but I didn't hear a specific city as an example.

--Joey

I'm getting sick of some of the people that live in this region. Its obvious they can't think for theirselves for a moment and are influenced by what the media and corrupt politicians tell them. How the hell can everything in this country be labeled "liberal" or "conservative" now? How is it that mass transit can be labeled a "liberal" thing? Do I just have too much common sense for this country?

I assume for Light Rail but that once it turns north to USF that may not be the case. David Armijo said something about learning best practices from other regions but I didn't hear a specific city as an example.

--Joey

Denver might be an example of light rail running down one side of the freeway.

http://livablestreets.info/share/denver_light_rail.jpg

I see it running down the median from DT to TIA, but along one of the sides going north to Busch and/or Fowler.

A couple of maps I whipped up for kicks...
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/1174/tamparail.jpg



I'm particularly fond of the layout of lines downtown. Much better than having the main hub be at I-275 on the northern edge of DT.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7523/tamparaildt.jpg

I see it running down the median from DT to TIA, but along one of the sides going north to Busch and/or Fowler.

Right, that's what I was suggesting. I need to look at Denver's setup better. That photo makes it look a little different than what we would be dealing with.

--Joey

Something I've been wondering... Why is it that the line running along I-275 would supposedly cost more than running it along Cypress?

Anyone know specifically?

^^Would it be the cost of building overpasses over the roads as opposed to at-grade crossings?

Also, your proposal map is interesting. Why not extens LRT further east in the median of SR 60? Perhaps all the way out to Valrico?

Something I've been wondering... Why is it that the line running along I-275 would supposedly cost more than running it along Cypress?

For one thing, the stations would cost a lot more.

^I don't really see why... There is plenty of room on the north side of the interstate for there to be track and stations at ground level, except at Dale Mabry... And where any station would be located, there is an underpass peds could use to cross the interstate to the station.

Regardless, I would never, ever put the central spine of a rail system at-grade, down a 2 lane residential street, with a rail crossing every block. It will be mindnumbingly S-L-O-W.

Then what is the HUGE median going to be for on 275? They built it and the rest will be be built with huge medians. Half the cost of the road is/was for right of way.
The median is for future lanes and HOV/Toll Express Lanes more than likely.

Interstate stops would cost more because you have to get up or down - either rail or people and you have to deal with getting people under the interstate, etc.

The median is for whatever it is decided it is for. . . thus sprake Thibault

The median is for future lanes and HOV/Toll Express Lanes more than likely.

Or High Speed Rail, but whatever....

Well it's doubtful HSR will be running down it anytime soon.

Another one... Pound away! lol


http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/hillsborough-transit-plan-benefits-everyone/1128380

1.2 mill allocated to Tampa for T.O.D. around the HSR terminal. They have also started doing some sort of construction there by the church at the MTC. It may just be a parking lot, lol .... but could possibly be more.


http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/21/tampa-gets-12-million-for-development-near-high-sp/c_2/#comments

Makes you wonder why they haven't already planned the station and the area around it.

^Because the project was dead and was revived by the feds, pretty much out of nowhere.

I accept that but:
1) why wasn't there a plan for the years they project was alive? They had enough time to not connect it to the airport, to pick where the station was going to be and tear down what was there, etc. This is exactly the kind of thing that drives me nuts. Orlando and Miami both were working it out - just Tampa slept.
2) frankly, you don't need to wait the grant. If they had just announced a contest earlier this year for ideas, I bet they would have been flooded with plans from architects and planners for here and elsewhere which they could have built upon. Those folks have been dying to toss out ideas.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/22/csx-to-hart-light-rail-not-compatible-on-its-track/news-metro/

I wonder why they dont use Rome for the cross over between cypress and cass. It used to have a rail line down the middle of the road and on the sides so it already is designed for rail. That is why all the buildings are set back the width of a rail car. Plus there is lots of warehouse space and empty lots that could be redevelop and there is already residential units on rome.

^It's irrelevant, because the Cypress alignment isn't going to be picked anyways. The route is too slow getting to the airport and connects to nothing but that little cluster around Rome Ave.

Tampa wins $1.2 million federal grant to plan transit-oriented development

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/tampa-wins-12-million-federal-grant-to-plan-transit-oriented-development/1129614

The only thing I have to say about this article is that building offices, hotels and mixed-use development is exactly what they/we want to do, and more of it could be built with rail as more people could access it without a car.

Pinellas AA has a website:

http://www.pinellasontrack.com/

Tampa wins $1.2 million federal grant to plan transit-oriented development

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/tampa-wins-12-million-federal-grant-to-plan-transit-oriented-development/1129614

The only thing I have to say about this article is that building offices, hotels and mixed-use development is exactly what they/we want to do, and more of it could be built with rail as more people could access it without a car.
I really hope they listen to public comments and criticism because I'll be sending my few share of emails to them. Tampa has a large oppurtunity in redeveloping this whole area and I really don't have trust in the city in placing the best plan first, maybe third or fourth. I just fear will end up with a larger Encore-type development with 3-5 story buildings covering much of the area when we could have 20+ story projects there. If anything, place the shortest projects north of I-275. There isn't much up that way anyways and even 3-5 story developments would do much for that area. But also, RETAIL RETAIL RETAIL!!!!!!! If the city doesn't make this a need for almost all the projects planned for this, they deserve to deal with the shittiest of developments. I also don't want to redevelop all of the planned area, leave some areas undeveloped just in case larger projects come around.

Which reminds me, what would be the height requirement near the HSR station when it comes to Peter O'Knight Airport?

I think another way we can defeat the naysayers is if we can find the faults within the No Tax For Tracks "Facts". I already see 5 that aren't even facts or spreads more lies.

http://notaxfortracks.com/The_Facts.aspx

There's no point in trying to talk to people too stupid to understand the words coming out of your mouth.

ewww that site you posted, it's like the anti-skyscrapercity site.

I really hope they listen to public comments and criticism because I'll be sending my few share of emails to them. Tampa has a large oppurtunity in redeveloping this whole area and I really don't have trust in the city in placing the best plan first, maybe third or fourth. I just fear will end up with a larger Encore-type development with 3-5 story buildings covering much of the area when we could have 20+ story projects there. If anything, place the shortest projects north of I-275. There isn't much up that way anyways and even 3-5 story developments would do much for that area. But also, RETAIL RETAIL RETAIL!!!!!!! If the city doesn't make this a need for almost all the projects planned for this, they deserve to deal with the shittiest of developments. I also don't want to redevelop all of the planned area, leave some areas undeveloped just in case larger projects come around.

Which reminds me, what would be the height requirement near the HSR station when it comes to Peter O'Knight Airport?

I love San Franiso's Transbay Center plan:

http://transbaycenter.org/

If we can get something half as good, I'll be happy.

I also like Denver's Union Station plan:

http://www.unionstationdenver.com/

I think that's closer to what we could/should see here as far as mix of uses and scale.

I like the Denver idea, but it will not be like that here. First of all, they seem to be using an old station - which Tampa conveniently ignored for no practical reason. Secondly, it seems the train is underground - which isn't happening here. Third, it seems the Denver station might already be somewhere. Ours will not

ive seen some yellow 'vote no on rail' signs at the entraces of the 589 expwy exit 10 and others.. maybe they should dissapear

Bad timing on the $800 million from the feds for HSR - they will fuel complacency and anger, esp among people who can't distinguish between LR and HSR . . . part of the good campaign by the supporters.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/local/article1130275.ece

^^
Its bad timing cause the anti-Obama & anti-rail people will pressure Rick Scott to reverse ALL HSR funds if he's elected governor.

Plus, from the emails that I've recieved so far on the issue, it seems that Scott is against the whole HSR stimulus. We will see if that holds out to be true.

After reading the article, I think its more iminent that HSR will die with the GOP victories to come.

Bad timing on the $800 million from the feds for HSR - they will fuel complacency and anger, esp among people who can't distinguish between LR and HSR . . . part of the good campaign by the supporters.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/local/article1130275.ece
Who gives a damn. The people who can't figure out the freaking difference between HSR and LR are idiots and anyone who listen to their BS are morons for listening to them idiots. If the referendum even fails, which I'm still saying it won't, it will show the idiocy amongst many who believe the "good campaigning". Maybe its harsh to say "idiot" and "moron", but it takes a freaking Google search to know the difference and the people who can't distinguish the two are either too lazy to research the difference between the two or know the difference but want to make the comparison. Call it good campaigning, but its sad even if 1% of the opposition are voting no on the referendum because they don't know the difference between High Speed Rail and Light Rail. And judging by much of the BS I have seen on the sites, more than 1% are having that "trouble".

^^
Its bad timing cause the anti-Obama & anti-rail people will pressure Rick Scott to reverse ALL HSR funds if he's elected governor.

Plus, from the emails that I've recieved so far on the issue, it seems that Scott is against the whole HSR stimulus. We will see if that holds out to be true.

I see it exactly the opposite. Without this additional money Scott could have killed the project as it was not fully funded so he could spin it that the state would have to come up with the rest. Now that it is nearly fully funded he will have a difficult time killing it without any reasonable reason.

Steve

If elected Republicans treat the HSR money like they treated the stimulus, whining constantly about it while taking the money and posing with giant checks, things should be fine. Rove was right, the deficit doesn't matter, its just a prop used every couple election cycles to scare people into voting in one direction.

At the end of the day, the HSR push is primarily a White House and Federal Govt push. Scott is not going to kill the thing all by himself just like he is not going to kill Obama's healthcare plan all by himself. It would be an uphill battle for him and while he may be using the argument(s) to try to get elected, he'll flip on it under pressure IF he were elected. The FEDS are not just going to reverse 2B in funding because one Governor demands it, regardless of whom he is. There's just too much at stake (nationwide) to allow that to happen.
This goes to show just how small minded some people are when it comes to Florida politics and politics, in general. There is a reason Florida just received an additional 800M with mention of possibly funding the remaining 300M next year and it's simply because the project is "shovel ready" and the FEDS NEED to show something for all the job hype they've been talking about for the past few years. This is going to happen whether someone likes it or not. Might not be a huge success either way but the FEDS will roll the dice to get it going.

Who gives a damn. The people who can't figure out the freaking difference between HSR and LR are idiots and anyone who listen to their BS are morons for listening to them idiots. If the referendum even fails, which I'm still saying it won't, it will show the idiocy amongst many who believe the "good campaigning". Maybe its harsh to say "idiot" and "moron", but it takes a freaking Google search to know the difference and the people who can't distinguish the two are either too lazy to research the difference between the two or know the difference but want to make the comparison. Call it good campaigning, but its sad even if 1% of the opposition are voting no on the referendum because they don't know the difference between High Speed Rail and Light Rail. And judging by much of the BS I have seen on the sites, more than 1% are having that "trouble".

Agreed, its extremely pathetic. :bash:

I see it exactly the opposite. Without this additional money Scott could have killed the project as it was not fully funded so he could spin it that the state would have to come up with the rest. Now that it is nearly fully funded he will have a difficult time killing it without any reasonable reason.

Steve

We will see. It may be difficult, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. It seems like it is the push in CA. But then again, CA has better reasons to repeal the HSR money, especially being that it is in tremendous debt right now.

At the end of the day, the HSR push is primarily a White House and Federal Govt push. Scott is not going to kill the thing all by himself just like he is not going to kill Obama's healthcare plan all by himself. It would be an uphill battle for him and while he may be using the argument(s) to try to get elected, he'll flip on it under pressure IF he were elected. The FEDS are not just going to reverse 2B in funding because one Governor demands it, regardless of whom he is. There's just too much at stake (nationwide) to allow that to happen.
This goes to show just how small minded some people are when it comes to Florida politics and politics, in general. There is a reason Florida just received an additional 800M with mention of possibly funding the remaining 300M next year and it's simply because the project is "shovel ready" and the FEDS NEED to show something for all the job hype they've been talking about for the past few years. This is going to happen whether someone likes it or not. Might not be a huge success either way but the FEDS will roll the dice to get it going.

Hmmmmmmm.......

Who gives a damn. The people who can't figure out the freaking difference between HSR and LR are idiots and anyone who listen to their BS are morons for listening to them idiots.

Eye on the prize.

Another reason this all should have been completely long ago - like this will help instill confidence in the voters:

Light-rail cost estimates already exceeding initial projection

By Bill Varian, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Friday, October 29, 2010

TAMPA — Transit officials say they've done their best to ensure that projected costs for Hillsborough County's proposed light rail system won't rise dramatically in the future.

But cost estimates already have spiked since county commissioners agreed this summer to ask voters if they support a 1-cent sales tax to pay for rail, more bus routes and road work.

Projections by the county's Metropolitan Planning Organization put the construction costs for a new light rail system — the figure commissioners considered — at $70 million per mile.

Now, Hillsborough Area Regional Transit officials say the cost likely will be $85 million to $120 million per mile, based on an analysis issued two weeks ago that doesn't consider inflation.

"I think that's a consistent pattern and it's occurred in city after city," said Martin Wachs, who supervises transportation research at Rand Corp., a nonpartisan, nonprofit think tank.

Officials with HART, which will run the trains, say the earlier estimate was made largely using the experience of other cities. The new numbers reflect a more localized analysis that revealed needed bridges and land purchases that could prove costly.

It builds in big contingencies for cost overruns, they say. Still, they acknowledge that the best estimates will come later, when paths are selected and engineering work is done.

So how should voters view the numbers as they cast ballots?

"Our numbers are more conservative," said David Armijo, HART's executive director. "All this . . . analysis does is give you a back-of-the-envelope number."

• • •

Rail planners often use the word "conservative" to suggest they are considering every precaution in calculating costs.

Critics argue their estimates prove to be anything but that, with actual costs ending up much higher than figures that are initially sold to the public. They quote multiple studies that argue costs for rail are consistently underestimated, and ridership is overestimated.

Rail advocates say that those studies are old and that transportation planners are now better at hitting their targets.

"Those have been debunked," said Bill Millar, president of the American Public Transportation Association.

He pointed to several bits of more favorable research. A common theme: that a fairer starting point for judging estimates comes after the engineering is done.

But that doesn't help voters, since those figures come long after they decide.

"It think that means people need to be cautious and skeptical of those figures," said Wachs, who has studied transportation projects and urban planning for three decades as a former professor at the University of California at Berkeley and UCLA.

• • •

When MPO planners developed their projections in 2008, they looked at the actual cost of nine recent rail projects in six cities and adjusted for inflation.

HART initially estimated that the sales tax hike would spur $15 billion in transit spending over 30 years, including federal and state contributions. Of that, about half would go to build, run and pay debt on the rail system.

The first two lines would connect downtown Tampa to points north and west. Plans call for later extensions to South Tampa, Brandon and Westchase, with links to neighboring counties.

The new HART analysis projects capital costs alone for the first two legs of $2.8 billion.

"From what I've seen of their numbers, they seem to be very, very conservative," said Beth Alden, a multimodal systems group leader for the MPO who helped oversee the formation of the earlier projections.

The new estimates assume the first two legs will run farther than anticipated initially. The numbers reflect many unknowns, and HART officials say they have assumed worst-case scenarios as they seek to fill in the blanks.

Mary Shavalier, HART's planning chief, said there is reason to believe that cost projections could actually come down. Recent rail projects elsewhere were built when steel and concrete prices were rising rapidly, and construction is now less expensive in a weak economy.

The estimates also contain a contingency for 50 percent overruns on land costs. If the rail lines run on state land along Interstate 275, land costs would be nil. And if the route between downtown Tampa and West Shore Boulevard coincides with a planned interstate expansion, engineering and construction costs could be shared, she said.

Armijo, the HART executive director, noted that the last time Hillsborough got close to pursuing light rail in 2002, the cost per mile projection was roughly $40 million. His parenthetical question: What's the cost of pushing off rail until some date in the future?

"Delaying things will only raise the costs," he said.

Times researcher John Martin contributed to this report. Bill Varian can be reached at (813) 226-3387 or varian@sptimes.com.

[Last modified: Oct 28, 2010 10:32 PM]
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/light-rail-cost-estimates-already-exceeding-initial-projection/1130960

LRT should not cost $85 - $120 million/mile to build. Somebody is getting their palms greased.

The same goes with roads too. The county faces a $65.2 billion backlog in road improvements and construction and the number will only rise without a reasonable funding source. Without one, the cost of widening "So and So" road will be more than it is now, just like light rail.

All I can say is that the teabaggers will definitely use that article as last-minute ammo against the referendum. This could be the thing that kills it on Nov 2. :(

Critics argue their estimates prove to be anything but that, with actual costs ending up much higher than figures that are initially sold to the public. They quote multiple studies that argue costs for rail are consistently underestimated, and ridership is overestimated.

What both "the critics" and perhaps more alarmingly "the media" are omitting here is the reality that nearly ALL infrastructure projects wind up costing more than initial projections. Roads, water lines, fire departments, schools, etc, etc. They almost all cost more, always.

That's why cost estimates are called "estimates". If it was the actual cost, we wouldn't have invented the word "estimate" in the first place. lol

Do they share how these estimates break down on a per item basis with the general public? I can guarantee you these numbers are cooked with something that isn't essential for reliable rail service.

^^
The only purpose of the report is to scare people and provide the teabaggers with more ammo to sway voters to vote "NO". They see the "estimates" and think "OMG! It's gonna cost MILLIONS MORE to build light rail and expand buses. NO NO NO! WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!" :bash:

As I was saying - this is twice for HART not spending money it asked for. Could they do something to instill confidence in the voters . . .
Hillsborough officials want unused millions back from HART
By STEVE ANDREWS | News Channel 8

Published: October 29, 2010

Updated: 14 min. ago

!

Hillsborough County gave HART officials $40 million in 2008 to accelerate transit projects, but almost all of that money sat idle in a bank while taxpayers paid $1.7 million a year in interest, according to county records.

Now faced with an IRS deadline on bond funds, the county wants the money back.

The $40 million went into an account at Wells Fargo, with HART using only $1.3 million. The county is paying 4.32 percent interest on the loan.

The money was part of the $191 million the county borrowed in 2007 for roads, intersections and mass transit as part of the Transportation Task Force program to jump-start solutions to transportation projects. The bond issue is being paid back with money from the half penny sales tax, known as the Community Investment Tax, or CIT.

County Commissioner Ken Hagan chaired the transportation task force. At Hagan's urging, the county gave Hillsborough Agency Regional Transit Authority $40 million to accelerate certain projects.

The plan was to provide $31 million for developing a north-south bus rapid transit system that would run from Fletcher Avenue down Nebraska to downtown. It would provide 10-minute bus service during rush hours.

Other monies would be spent on these projects:

• $4 million to develop a supporting park-and-ride lot near Fletcher and Interstate 75 and another park-and-ride lot in Brandon.

• $2 million to prioritize traffic signals, holding green lights longer and red lights shorter so buses could get through intersections more quickly.

• $3 million to begin engineering services for a bus rapid transit route along the Hillsborough Avenue and Dale Mabry corridors with connections to the Westshore district and Tampa International Airport.

Mike Merrill, acting county administrator, said the county usually requires agencies to ask for reimbursement once they complete a project. But he helped negotiate an agreement in May 2008 that gave HART the money up front.

"We thought it would be efficient to avoid the bureaucracy of having to go through the county process at the county, to have the money in a third-party trustee bank," Merrill said in explaining the account set up at Wells Fargo.

The agreement states HART had five years to complete the projects. But the IRS requires bond money be spent within three years. The IRS time frame for the project began in 2007 when the county borrowed the money.

"Based on the discussions we had, we felt there was a reasonable expectation that they could get them done," Merrill said.

The projects are not done. They won't be done for at least two more years.

"The understanding is it would be started and under way in 2010 and completion in 2012," said Ron Govin, chairman of HART's board of directors.

Govin said HART last week issued a $3 million contract to consultants for work on the bus rapid transit system, or BRT.

"At our last meeting we did approve the first BRT route," Govin said. "We have two years to accomplish that."

Hagan has not responded to requests for an interview.

Faced with IRS deadlines, Merrill says the county had to take action and is moving to get the money back.

"They didn't spend the money. That begs the question: What about these projects that are supposed to be important?" Merrill asked.

The bond money will instead be used on projects the county has already paid to complete. When it actually receives the money it provided HART, Merrill says, the county will reimburse its cash account.

Sometime after next week's election, which includes a referendum for a 1 cent sales tax increase for transit, the county will get the money back.

Despite the IRS deadline, the projects may still be completed. Merrill says the county is still committed to the projects.

In early December, Merrill expects to put before commissioners a new arrangement with HART.

"Now when they build the projects, they'll present us with invoices and then we'll pay against those invoices," he said.

Reporter Steve Andrews' story airs at 11 p.m. tonight on News Channel 8.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/oct/29/291335/hillsborough-officials-want-unused-millions-back-f/news-breaking/

^^
Good luck with that.....

Off of topic discussion... kinda

The numbers that the No Tax for Tracks comes up with for how much each individual will pay annually if the referendum does pass, does that include the 25%-35% figure of how much of the revenue will come from out of county visitors?

Off of topic discussion... kinda

The numbers that the No Tax for Tracks comes up with for how much each individual will pay annually if the referendum does pass, does that include the 25%-35% figure of how much of the revenue will come from out of county visitors?

I have read in some places that it in fact does not include out of town payments.

Steve

Hillsborough officials want unused millions back from HART
By STEVE ANDREWS | News Channel 8


This article really belongs in the HART thread as it is not related to rail but rather directly related to bus and the BRT project.

Steve

The plan was to provide $31 million for developing a north-south bus rapid transit system that would run from Fletcher Avenue down Nebraska to downtown. It would provide 10-minute bus service during rush hours.

Other monies would be spent on these projects:

• $4 million to develop a supporting park-and-ride lot near Fletcher and Interstate 75 and another park-and-ride lot in Brandon.

• $2 million to prioritize traffic signals, holding green lights longer and red lights shorter so buses could get through intersections more quickly.

• $3 million to begin engineering services for a bus rapid transit route along the Hillsborough Avenue and Dale Mabry corridors with connections to the Westshore district and Tampa International Airport.


Actually, all of those projects are directly related to the N/S and E/W BRT lines so it is odd that they are trying to make it look like they are all separate projects.

Steve

I have read in some places that it in fact does not include out of town payments.

Steve
I know Politico did a piece about the number that No Tax for Tracks came up with and I believe they found out the number was higher than the actual number, but I can't find the article for it and can't remember if even the Politico number included the out of county figure.

Off of topic discussion... kinda

The numbers that the No Tax for Tracks comes up with for how much each individual will pay annually if the referendum does pass, does that include the 25%-35% figure of how much of the revenue will come from out of county visitors?
Just about everything they've posted has been fudged.

Anyone trying to make a legitimate, dollars-based argument that the most affordable way to accommodate regional commuter growth is with automobiles on widened roads, is going to discover real fast that the report they're crafting is actually making a case for integrated rail/bus transit, unless they lie and fudge their numbers.

The other famous trick that anti-transit people keep trying to do is compare just the cost to build roads (sans upkeep and sans the cost to own a car), to the total cost to build and operate rail, including outfitting the system with rolling stock, employees and so on. Of course, the funny part of their false argument is that, even by neglecting the enduser cost of owning and operating an automobile in their comparing of different modes of transport, the numbers STILL show integrated transit is the more cost effective option in the long run.

^^
What really cracks me up, and I know its been mentioned a couple days ago, are the people that continue to think that LRT & HSR are the same thing.

^^
What really cracks me up, and I know its been mentioned a couple days ago, are the people that continue to think that LRT & HSR are the same thing.
Google, its a good tool to use. ;) lol

And here we go again, HSR & LRT being confused as being the same.

http://county.blogs.theledger.com/11462/transit-tax-and-high-speed-rail-linked-again/

Hillsborough's light rail tax defeat turns talk to regional rail
By TED JACKOVICS | The Tampa Tribune

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/nov/22/light-rail-tax-defeat-turns-talk-to-regional-rail/

Wilfred Sergeant addresses Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority public commentary sessions regularly, bringing a range and depth of passenger rail experience unmatched by those in attendance.

Transportation planners, consultants and officials from eight local counties listen respectfully to the 90-year-old Largo resident as he makes his point du-jour quietly, quickly, simply.

"Then they seem to disregard what I have said," Sergeant says cheerfully, despite his background of designing and overseeing a commuter rail system in Toronto that's become a worldwide model for the ridership and economic development it's created.

Not any more.

On Friday, TBARTA officials announced it was working with CSX Transportation officials to gain access to 97 miles of freight track to use for regional commuter rail that would extend from north of Brooksville in Hernando County, south through Pasco County into Hillsborough County and west to Oldsmar, Clearwater and St. Petersburg.

"Wilfred's comments did not fall on deaf ears," said Ronnie Duncan, TBARTA's chairman. "We hear him. That's why it's exciting to be able to say that we are working with CSX on a plan that could lead to commuter rail."

In the aftermath of the defeat by Hillsborough County voters of a referendum to help fund a 28-mile light rail route through Tampa, rail advocates have begun discussing regional rail instead.

"People have been brainwashed by visiting cities with successful (light rail) systems, but they serve short distances," Sergeant said.

"We have an area that extends 100 miles north and south and 80 miles east. You cannot cover that with a network of streetcars that average 25 mph. You need a train that passes cars on the highway" at speeds up to 80 mph.


* * * * *


TBARTA had relied on Hillsborough to kick off rail plans, reasoning that if the keystone county in the region could establish a successful light rail line, other counties would follow. Through TBARTA, planners would establish rail and additional bus routes to ensure region-wide connectivity.

But the 58 percent to 42 percent referendum defeat has prompted a different way of thinking.

A Pinellas County transportation task force on Monday decided to continue with its plans for light rail within the county but to also suggest consideration of a regional transportation taxing authority for a larger rail system.

The key for regional rail is the CSX rail line. The Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority previously sought to acquire a part of the CSX line for its light rail system, but CSX said it would only sell the rail line in its entirety, with a price tag HART expected to be $679 million.

CSX, preferring to deal with a single entity rather than multiple counties after its trying experiences in the Orlando area and south Florida, has been talking to TBARTA for at least six months.


* * * * *


Business leaders tie the area's congested highways and the long-term expense required to widen them to the Tampa Bay region's economic development challenges and comparatively low wages.

Elected officials and business leaders agree it's one thing to develop a regional transportation plan and another to fund it in separate segments with local tax revenue that federal agencies require for matching funds.

"People might vote to support what they think are their own interests but they don't want to vote more taxes to support infrastructure improvements, said Gary Sasso, who heads the Carleton Fields law firm in Tampa and is a rail advocate. "We might have to turn more to state and federal sources to get something done."

If a regional focus takes hold, cities could still supplement commuter rail with light rail, like San Diego has and Orlando is considering.

The ability to rebound from planning defeats for rail lines is a mark of many U.S. cities that today have light rail or commuter rail systems.

"You learn to get over it," said Don Keuth, president of the Phoenix Community Alliance. Phoenix had three failed rail tax efforts before successfully convincing and opening its light rail system two years ago. "You learn to tell your story better."


* * * * *


Orlando and Tampa set out nearly 20 years ago to build rail systems as an alternative to highway congestion.

Orlando changed plans from light rail to commuter rail after the Orange County commission in 1999 voted down a $660 million light rail proposal, even though half that funding was promised by the federal government.

In 2006 plans were announced for a 61-mile commuter rail line along tracks the state agreed to purchase from CSX last year.

Tampa Bay area rail advocates in 1993 proposed a regional system on CSX tracks in five counties. That evolved into a concept relying largely on CSX tracks for a route between the University of South Florida, downtown and Tampa International Airport and WestShore.

That plan disappeared in 1995, when county commissioners refused to put a sales tax initiative on the ballot. HART reintroduced a similar 20-mile plan in 2001, but again county commissioners would not allow a vote by taxpayers.

In 2006, Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio unveiled a regional plan using CSX tracks and building new tracks for a system that would have linked Brooksville, Tampa, St. Petersburg, Bradenton and Lakeland.

But instead, commissioners agreed to put on the ballot the light rail plan that served only Hillsborough County, which was defeated earlier this month.

"My intent … in 2006 was to get the conversation going and for studies to move from the shelf to something tangible," Iorio said.

Dudley Saunderson, a retiree who lives in Hudson, thinks commuter rail is more important than light rail.

"What we need in Florida, especially the Tampa Bay area, is commuter rail for people to get from, say, Homosassa to Tampa to spend a day at work and get on the train to come home."

Saunderson, who relocated here from Ontario, is familiar with the Toronto area's Go Transit rail and bus system, which he calls "one of the most fabulous systems I've ever seen."

He and his wife had lived in Mississauga, a suburb west of Toronto in a $21,000 house he owned in 1970 he says in now worth $800,000.

The Saundersons moved to Barrie, Ont., about 55 miles north of Toronto, and Dudley Saunderson learned to take a Go Transit train to work.

"I got up at 6:30, went to the station at 7:30 and got to work at 8:30 instead of fighting traffic that could be a two and a half hour trip," he said.


* * * * *


For Tampa Bay to create that kind of system, a deal to use CSX tracks must be forged, then some type of local, regional or state funding would be required to get a federal match for commuter train cars and locomotives.

And a decision on what type of rail to pursue must be agreed upon.

Sergeant hopes that when the Florida Department of Transportation forges its plans to reconstruct the Howard Frankland Bridge in another 15 years – some proposals are in the works to do it more quickly – that state planners will agree to build the new structure to handle commuter rail.

He also believes the new bridge should accommodate the proposed high-speed trains from the Tampa station - though not at high speeds – to allow passengers to travel from Miami and Orlando to Pinellas, similar to the way TGV high sped trains in France also operate on regular rail network.

While that idea does not resonate with local rail advocates who believe a light rail connection could serve the Tampa-Pinellas route, Sergeant suggests they listen to the "sound of light rail."

"It's the sound of a streetcar," said Sergeant, who parlayed his degrees in electrical and mechanical engineering at the University of London to a job with the London subways before relocating to Canada.

"But I am really only a newcomer, living here in the past 30 years. I have not yet become fully reconciled to the political processes."

tjackovics@tampatrib.com

(813) 259-7817

Just about everything they've posted has been fudged.

Anyone trying to make a legitimate, dollars-based argument that the most affordable way to accommodate regional commuter growth is with automobiles on widened roads, is going to discover real fast that the report they're crafting is actually making a case for integrated rail/bus transit, unless they lie and fudge their numbers.

The other famous trick that anti-transit people keep trying to do is compare just the cost to build roads (sans upkeep and sans the cost to own a car), to the total cost to build and operate rail, including outfitting the system with rolling stock, employees and so on. Of course, the funny part of their false argument is that, even by neglecting the enduser cost of owning and operating an automobile in their comparing of different modes of transport, the numbers STILL show integrated transit is the more cost effective option in the long run.

I think one of transit advocate's biggest problems is effectively pointing this out in the public as soon as these lies flow from their mouths.

I think that plan is not a bad one I mean we would have 90 miles of commuter rail serving the whole bay area which means even the people who would have not been served by light rail will see a benefit. With an effective commuter rail system we could see light rail and expanded bus service. Not to mention I'm willing to be commuter rail could be up and running fairly quick compared to light rail.

^^
Yes, but good luck with dealing with CSX. I see another SunRail style showdown to come.

Commuter rail to the boonies, and we have to kiss CSX's ass to get it???

Allow me to be frank... Hell fucking no!

Anytime you want to use someone else's property for something that is a detriment to their core business, you'll have to kiss their ass to make it their worthwhile. CSX, FEC, UP, NS, etc. That's the name of the game. However, buy the line from them, you get your commuter rail and the possibility of continuous freight service revenue to support your mass transit needs.

Yea we may have to kiss CSX's ass but we'd have a 90 mile commuter rail line! Tampa Bay is a pretty suburban so this actually works out nicely. Getting the trains and starting up would be most difficult, after that build some cheap stations and find an area for parking and we'd have ourselves a commuter rail system. Light rail could spur off of that in the only two realistic places which are Tampa and St. Petersburg, the rest can be commuter rail.

Regional commuter rail might be the most attrative way to get rail up an running quick and I think the easiest sell to the public. I'd rather not deal with CSX, but it may be the way to go after all. The routes would already be set, and the cost possibly easier to determine. Stations could be quickly decided on and designed. We could use the old Tampa Union Station as our Grand Central for the commuter rail system or tie it on in directly to the High Speed Rail station. The first line could run from Brooksville to DT Tampa, with successive lines to Plant City (through Brandon), St. Pete (via Town 'n Country, Oldsmar, Safety Harbor, Clearwater, Largo and Pinellas Park), and Ruskin opening one line every year or two. The St. Pete line could have a spur into TIA.

This could work until plans or local light rail get worked out.

I think commuter rail will fail miserably here... So it's a good thing that voters wouldn't approve funding for it anyways.

Forget regional fantasies, and stop funding sprawl... Tampa needs to focus urbanization inward, not outward. Expand the streetcar in and around downtown. Extend it down Kennedy and then Howard to hit UT, Hyde Park and SoHo. Get a BRT line running to USF and TIA. Establish circulators in the Westshore and USF districts... And make sure that only CoT residents get the subsidized fare price. make everyone else pay full fare... Start at the center and work your way out... Fuck the suburbs and the troglodytes that live in them. They add nothing to the community's viability, and should no longer be subsidized.

Regional commuter rail might be the most attrative way to get rail up an running quick and I think the easiest sell to the public. I'd rather not deal with CSX, but it may be the way to go after all. The routes would already be set, and the cost possibly easier to determine. Stations could be quickly decided on and designed. We could use the old Tampa Union Station as our Grand Central for the commuter rail system or tie it on in directly to the High Speed Rail station. The first line could run from Brooksville to DT Tampa, with successive lines to Plant City (through Brandon), St. Pete (via Town 'n Country, Oldsmar, Safety Harbor, Clearwater, Largo and Pinellas Park), and Ruskin opening one line every year or two. The St. Pete line could have a spur into TIA.

This could work until plans or local light rail get worked out.

Agreed.

And btw, the City of Tampa should find its own transit funding, and to hell with the county. This will enable them to snare a nice chunk of federal funding, which will now be exclusively for in-city transit, and the rest of the losers in the suburbs who want a free ride can go fuck themselves right back to the stone age when gas hits $5-7 a gallon in the coming years.

They add nothing to the community's viability

Funny, there are parts of the "suburbs" that are way older and way closer in than the "city". Anyway, the city has no money because Iorio was busy paying off the city employees during the "boom" and jacked their pay too high.

What they need to do is find another source of funding, like Orlando did. Sales tax is stupid and almost always loses until there is an established system to expand. . . not to mention that a lot of the city rejected the tax too, because it was a stupid "plan"

I think commuter rail will fail miserably here... So it's a good thing that voters wouldn't approve funding for it anyways.

Forget regional fantasies, and stop funding sprawl... Tampa needs to focus urbanization inward, not outward.
I have to disagree with you, commuter rail will probably have a higher success than urban mass transit consider how small of an urban area there is in Tampa Bay. This is Florida it will always be a sprawling mess regardless, with commuter rail you have a nice form of transit that will bring more riders into a future urban mass transit system, park n ride stations will have high success rates if the rail leads to job centers or places of interest.

I'm in support of a regional commuter rail service, but I really find it to be useless beyond SR 54 in Pasco. SR 54, you're in between New Port Richey and Zephyrhills. Between Suncoast Parkway and I-75, you have tens of thousands of homes that are filled or will be filled once the economy bounces back. These aren't homes for mainly retirees, these our multi-family homes where one or both of the parents work in good paying jobs. Jobs that don't exist in Pasco but in Hillsborough and Tampa. These are the type of people that will take advantage of commuter rail.

Anything above SR 54 though would be a waste. Only small communities scatter the area between SR 54 and SR 52, placing any stops would severely slow down a system that wouldn't need anymore slowing down. Once you get to SR 52, the Suncoast Parkway (just west of the CSX tracks) really does seperate two worlds. West of the Suncoast, you have Hudson and some multi-familiy communities that exist on SR 54, not to the number of SR 54's though. East of the Suncoast though, SR 52 is a 2 lane roadway with acres of farm land and barely anyone that would use commuter rail to Hillsborough or Tampa. There is the SunWest project in Hudson though, but that does nothing to justify bring the commuter rail line up that way.

And entering Hernando doesn't change much. My thing though is Brooksville has a great oppurtunity of redeveloping itself and Hernando as a whole if commuter rail reaches into that area. There is plenty of land for Brooksville to use for its benefit and the benefit of the commuter rail line and I wouldn't be afraid to say that after Tampa, Brooksville is second for any location a commuter rail line could do some work. There is plenty of area within the city and around the city limits that Brooksville and Hernando could use, develop, refigure to get their money with commuter rail. I'm talking about whole master plan of redevelopment. Office towers, apartment and condo towers, retail along the streets, etc. They have a oppurtunity to develop that area where people will come and live, but take the train to work in Tampa, but at the same time develop the area that people from Pasco and Tampa might in the future come up to Brooksville to work. We're talking about decades of work here, but it's something I belive could be done if Brooksville and Hernando change their focus of following the other counties with sprawl and actually focus on one main area of the county to grow on.... something I wish Pasco would do but this county is hopeless. And if such a master plan redevelopment occurs, it leaves Pasco in the middle with no direction and no course of revelopment in the SR 54 area because they have done a fine job already covering much of the City (such a joke) of Land O Lakes with community after community of sprawl!

When it comes to the economic benefits, commuter rail will never reach the benefits that light rail would, that's obvious. For some odd reason, you don't see much redevelopment around stations that are between City A and City B. Take the whole idea of Brooksville to Tampa, any stop between them two stops would see barely any development around them stations. I have not seen one commuter rail that has done otherwise, maybe someone can show me that I am wrong. But between commmuter rail and light rail, light rail would see more developments and produce more economic benefits than commuter rail would do.... ever do.

And if commuter rail does happen, we would be only be talking one or two stops between SR 54 and Tampa, right? USF and some other area that would make sense, right? I don't want the county or city to get crazy and start plotting stations like they did with light rail. Commuter rail doesn't need 19 stops.

You guys are too caught up on general rail terminology. Purchasing CSX tracks would allow you to use the ROW for freight, BRT, LRT, commuter rail or a mix of all. If you own the ROW, you call the shots. San Diego, St. Louis, Dallas, Miami and DC all have LRT or heavy rail lines that run on old freight rail ROW. In San Diego, Dallas and Austin, those lines generate extra money for the transit authorities because they still allow freight to use them. CSX ROW would also immediately give you an inner city east/west line connecting Ybor, DT, UT, Hyde Park and SOHO together. Put a DMU on it and service can be everything that you expect LRT to bring you.

I agree with Lakelander. Commuter rail does not necessarily have to have distant stops and can be just as effective as light rail. Just looking at Brooksville to Tampa line, I see starting in downtown Brooksville, on to Sping Hill Rd or some intermediate stop once crossing into Hernando for Spring Hill residents, SR 52 and SR 54 in Land O' Lakes, Lake Fern Rd or some point in the Lutz area, Fowler Ave for USF, Hillsborough Ave to serve East Tampa, Ybor City, then downtown Tampa. Continue it on to UT, SOHO, and Gandy Blvd in south Tampa, and we have a pretty compelling line to start out with.

The good thing about using the CSX ROW is that it goes through several established areas and hits just about all of the traditional downtowns of the area. So, from a development standpoint, it's just a matter of building on what's already there.

By TED JACKOVICS | The Tampa Tribune
and MIKE SALINERO | The Tampa Tribune

Published: December 4, 2010

Business leaders want TIA line
More on light rail

Al Higginbotham vote
nowBuzz up!TAMPA - Local mass transit advocates might have a hard time wrapping their minds around Al Higginbotham as the new champion for light rail in Hillsborough County.

The county commissioner led the opposition to a 1-cent-on-the-dollar transit tax that voters rejected Nov. 2. The tax would have financed a light rail system between New Tampa and Tampa International Airport through downtown, as well as expanded bus service and road improvements.

Now as county commission chairman, Higginbotham says he wants to look at other ways to fund light rail that won't burden taxpayers.

He declined to reveal any specific plans he may have. However, he said Friday that he will ask County Attorney Renee Lee at the Dec. 15 commission meeting to research legal issues regarding current tax revenues and bonds.

Higginbotham said he never opposed mass transit, just the tax.

"As I said since we had this debate, the citizens recognize the need of transit for the benefit of moving people, the environment and economic development," Higginbotham said Friday. "But the taxpayers and voters made it clear an additional tax is not the source."


* * * * *

Higginbotham sees no contradiction between his spirited stand against the transit tax and his new push for a rail system.

Hours after being elected commission chairman on Nov. 16, he said he would use the nominally ceremonial position to lead county economic development efforts. Light rail, especially one that connects with a planned high-speed rail system between Orlando and Tampa, is part of his strategy to grow the local economy.

"It is tied to (economic development)," he said, "but I also recognize, as someone who uses and supports our transit system, that it is an important part of our growth. I was not convinced that we had exhausted all avenues that the current taxes we have to provide funding afford."

Higginbotham's statement was welcomed by a leading light rail advocate: Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio. But the mayor reiterated her belief that a long-term sales tax is the only realistic way of building and operating a rail system.

"We have studied what all other similar communities have done and if someone wants to review that or think of new ideas, that's good," Iorio said Friday. "Most revenue sources don't produce enough to build and operate, which is why sales tax is the dominant source."


* * * * *

So where would the cash come from for a light rail system?

One possibility would be extending the Community Investment Tax, a half-penny sales tax voters approved in September 1996 that has paid for police, roads, schools, parks and construction of Raymond James Stadium.

Commissioners have obligated CIT revenues through 2026. Extending the CIT beyond its sunset date would allow the county to borrow money in the bond market to complete at least a segment of a rail system, said Assistant County Administrator Eric Johnson.

"If the community is looking for improvements in transportation but is concerned about having another layer of taxation placed on them, certainly a compromise is taking an existing tax that expires in 2026 that doesn't place a burden on somebody today," Johnson said.

Higginbotham is not the only one looking for alternative ways to fund some type of rail system in Hillsborough County and Tampa Bay since the referendum failed.

The Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce, the Tampa Bay Partnership regional economic development group and other business leaders are trying to maintain momentum for rail initiatives despite the referendum defeat. The thinking is that a moribund economy was partly to blame for the tax's defeat.

Tampa attorney Gary Sasso, at a post-referendum transit forum attended by more than 125 business and elected officials, suggested a scaled-back light rail route between the airport and downtown. And land use attorney Ron Weaver proposed a bare-bones rail operation be built as a starter system to keep costs down.

Meanwhile, the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority, which runs the bus system, continues work on a study expected in late January that would recommend the best light rail routes with cost estimates.

Business leaders are hopeful the estimated price tag for an airport-to-downtown segment could be reduced from $1.1 billion to $900 million. Then, with hoped-for federal funding, the city and county's share could be about $450 million.

HART chief executive David Armijo said Friday no concrete information on funding is available yet.


* * * * *

Despite the referendum defeat in Hillsborough, a Pinellas County transportation task force is expected to decide later this month whether to recommend the county pursue a sales tax referendum or even a regional sales tax to fund rail initiatives.

The Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority, a seven-county group, is working with CSX Transportation Inc. on the possibility of using CSX tracks for regional rail operations.

Bay area rail advocates say three factors are driving the effort:

One is the potential for new business to develop near train stations, an opportunity some developers liken to creating high-end property in underdeveloped areas.

A second is to provide an alternative to highway travel that is less expensive than adding highway lanes to accommodate expected growth.

And lastly is the need to provide a feeder system for Florida's first high-speed rail route, planned to link Tampa and Orlando by 2015 and eventually reach Miami.

Without plans for a light rail connector, local leaders are concerned rail opponents could squelch Tampa's high-speed rail plan.

So far, opponents have focused their arguments against increased taxes, particularly while the economy is struggling. They also point to the relatively small numbers of rail passengers compared with those who drive.

Meh, I still doubt that we can fix all our transportation without raising the tax. $62.5 billion backlog in roadway funding, rapid bus transit, increasing the number of fleets for HART, more bus routes, bike and pedestrian paths, and light rail that will be expanded for many decades and somehow we expect to accomplish that without raising the sales tax or any other tax? I've yet seen anything that can tell me it can be done without raising the sales tax. Prove me wrong and I'll change my mind.

If they can find a way to use a few years worth of an extended CIT to provide capital, they could use a special property tax assessment on properties nearest the improvements, as well as something like a 2-3 cent gas tax to fund operations and expansion. I'm convinced that smart fare pricing can capture a much bigger share of operating costs than what is traditionally captured, meaning less subsidy is needed overall.

If he's thinking a Federal Fairy Godmother is going to drop by with bucket of cash, he's nuts. It'll take a decent percentage of local money to get it going. I still think Tampa should go it alone and by making the decision, force the county at a later date to go along with whatever has been built in the city. Its a good way for the majority users to make sure the system works for them and not some hybrid system that comes about as a political compromise with the burbs who were against the whole thing in the first place. So in the end Tampa would have a solution that worked for it and the county would have to suck it up and take whatever is currently in use (train selection and tying into existing Tampa centric routes).

Try a mobility plan.

If they can find a way to use a few years worth of an extended CIT to provide capital, they could use a special property tax assessment on properties nearest the improvements, as well as something like a 2-3 cent gas tax to fund operations and expansion. I'm convinced that smart fare pricing can capture a much bigger share of operating costs than what is traditionally captured, meaning less subsidy is needed overall.

Sounds like a plan.

I'm glad to hear that the business leader's Priority #1 is to connect TIA with Downtown(Hopefully via Westshore and Kennedy).

Pretty soon, within ten years at most likely, talk of a new stadium for the Bucs will roll around. So at least part of that CIT will probably be linked to it again. Maybe you do the extension now, linked entirely to transit and real infrastructure, community investment, and when the Bucs are up for a new stadium the public would be forced to come up with new money for the new stadium. Might be a plan. I would expect to see the Bucs lobbying behind the scenes on using CIT funding or extensions for this purpose. They don't mind sharing the little they share now, but transit would gobble up most of that tax revenue.

^^
Why would you think that Shenise? Ray Jay is only 10 years old.

Ray Jay was completed in 1998, I really doubt any need for a new stadium will rise anytime in the next 10 years. And the public, from what I can see, hate the Glazers, they would never be willing to even consider financing a new stadium.

But we're getting off topic

With a line from Downtown to the Airport. Couldn't the Airport profit by building a Park and Ride garage on the north end of the property along Hillsborough. It would be another way for passengers to get to the airport terminal as well.

I'm glad to hear that the business leader's Priority #1 is to connect TIA with Downtown(Hopefully via Westshore and Kennedy).

It is good, and I am for it....but ridership on just that part of the line was projected to be a bit week, especially without the larger part of the system. If we are going to get a much truncated starter system then the public needs to know the real ridership estimates and cost to build estimates for that portion. Again, I am for a starter system if it is built on the cheap, like a real starter system should be. With the frequencies that are/were planned we could get it running on single track with passings, less vehicles, maybe diesel trains, etc.

Steve

DP

^I'm strongly opposed to any system that runs on anything other than electricity. NO GASOLINE of any kind!!!

Beggars can't be choosy. You can't always be a 3.5 and demand a 10. A 7.5 or 8 would still be an accomplishment. Sometimes you have to compromise to get your foot in the door or remain in the cold. This is happening right now in Orlando with Sunrail after their late 1990s LRT debacle. A DMU based system to get started would be quite an achievement for a conservative community like Tampa.

Beggars can't be choosy.
Well there's the problem with your logic... I'm not a beggar and neither is anyone else demanding competent planning. WE are in the right. The quitters are failing us all.

Sometimes you have to compromise to get your foot in the door or remain in the cold.
This is the sad story of Tampa's existence; do it half-assed, and then have to go back and pay double to finally get it right the 2nd time. In this context, 'compromise' is just a way of delaying failure.

I think they'll get talking on the stadium issue within ten years because the "model" stadium has been improved on by Cowboys stadium, the new Meadowlands and Soldier Field. Teams always try to get the ball rolling sooner than later and I wouldn't be surprised that come 2016, talk will turn to needing a more "current" stadium. Its the nature of professional sports to try to suck as much as possible from the local area.

Electric is the only way to go. Even with the overhead wires, it beats the hell out of diesel.

Beggars can't be choosy. You can't always be a 3.5 and demand a 10. A 7.5 or 8 would still be an accomplishment. Sometimes you have to compromise to get your foot in the door or remain in the cold. This is happening right now in Orlando with Sunrail after their late 1990s LRT debacle. A DMU based system to get started would be quite an achievement for a conservative community like Tampa.
The thing is, Tampa has for years kept itself at being a 3.5 or 4. Tampa has always had the potential to be a 7,8, or even a 9 but repeatedly shoots itself in the foot when it ever tries to reach that 7 or 8. With a cheap mentality, half-assed government officials, and lack of any understanding on how to plan and develop a potential 8 or 9 city; that is where we fail. We have an oppurtunity for something 9/10 and I'm not going to allow the 3/4 people from holding us down.

Let's assume that a line is built from a Park and Ride on the north end of the Airport Property to Downtown. Let's imagine that a bunch of people from Westchase park there Lexus or Jag or whatever off Hillsborough Ave at the PnR and then ride the train to a Lightning game. If the LR is going to normaly go along Polk Street DT. What is the feasibility of the same LR switching onto the Streetcar track to head to the arena? Are the track sizes usually the same? That would make the trip more convenient (name of the game)

^Yes, the streetcar line could run LRVs on the same tracks. I think the stations would need modifications to allow for proper ingress/egress. (plus the ticketing issue)

Well there's the problem with your logic... I'm not a beggar and neither is anyone else demanding competent planning. WE are in the right. The quitters are failing us all.


This is the sad story of Tampa's existence; do it half-assed, and then have to go back and pay double to finally get it right the 2nd time. In this context, 'compromise' is just a way of delaying failure.

I wouldn't call an actual DMU operating system half assed. Half assed is what the recent LRT proposal and request for funding ended up being. I'd take an Austin Metrorail, Oceanside Sprinter or New Jersey RiverLine over what Tampa ended up getting in that November vote any day. All that can happen now is to learn from that half assed mistake and try to avoid repeating the half assed efforts that ultimately ended up in it being defeated.

I wouldn't call an actual DMU operating system half assed.
I would certianly hope not, since I said no such thing.

Half assed is what the recent LRT proposal and request for funding ended up being. I'd take an Austin Metrorail, Oceanside Sprinter or New Jersey RiverLine over what Tampa ended up getting in that November vote any day. All that can happen now is to learn from that half assed mistake and try to avoid repeating the half assed efforts that ultimately ended up in it being defeated.

exactly... This is the story of Tampa... Fuck up at least once, then come back with a crippled compromise that's overpriced that doesn't really solve the problem that was being addressed in the first place... After 25+ years, I know the pattern very, very well.

Hillsborough County to look at options for light rail without new tax
By Bill Varian, Times staff writer
In Print: Wednesday, December 8, 2010

TAMPA — One of the leading opponents of last month's transit tax referendum says he now would like to figure out a way to pursue expanded mass transit without raising taxes.

Al Higginbotham, recently selected as chairman of the Hillsborough County Commission, said he thinks the public wants to see local government invest in new transit. As an elected county leader, he said he feels it's his responsibility to see if there's a way to do it without hitting taxpayers in the wallet.

"I want to see — is there something we have missed, something we have overlooked that could be explored?" Higginbotham said.

The Plant City Republican, one of the few local elected officials to regularly use the county's bus system, spent the past several months as one of the speakers of choice against the transit tax. He argued that, with the economy struggling, it was the worst time to ask the public for more money.

But he said that doesn't mean he is against transit. And he said that, based on what he heard during his many speaking engagements, he does not think the public is, either. A post-election poll seemed to bear that out.

"When I spoke over 70 times this past year, people overwhelmingly said, 'We get it about new transit but we don't want a new tax,' " Higginbotham said. "So I feel like I owe it to public to see what else there is out there."

If Higginbotham has something specific in mind, he's not telling. He said he will ask permission from fellow board members when they meet Dec. 15 to direct county staff to do an analysis of options short of raising taxes.

He said he initially wants to ask County Attorney Renee Lee for clarification on the limitations of taking on debt with various county revenue streams.

Voters overwhelmingly rejected a ballot proposal Nov. 2 to raise the sales tax by a penny on the dollar to pay for light rail, expanded bus service and road work. A poll commissioned by the Tampa Bay Area Regional Transit Authority found that the economy was very much on voters' minds when casting ballots.

David Armijo, chief executive officer of Hillsborough Area Regional Transit, said Higginbotham's office on Tuesday asked for research it has done on options for paying for transit. Armijo's agency, which runs the county's bus system, would have operated the rail system had the tax passed and has handled much of the analysis of options.

He said his staff is already looking into how it might move ahead with a scaled-down transit plan that doesn't include new local tax revenue and hopes to finish its work by January.

Some business leaders have suggested exploring ways to build one rail line —perhaps from downtown Tampa to the West Shore Boulevard business district — as a demonstration project of sorts.

Armijo said his office may look at whether there are opportunities for public-private partnerships or to draw federal money without a dedicated new tax.

"It's a challenge," Armijo said. "It may take more partners in order to pull it off."

Eric Johnson, an assistant county administrator who oversees budgetary matters, notes the county is scaling back spending due to declining revenues.

One possible option, he said, would be extending the county's Community Investment Tax, a half-cent sales tax that pays for such things as roads, jails and new schools. The tax expires in 2026 and commissioners have already committed much of the county's share of the tax receipts through its lifetime. (The county's school district and its three cities also get some of the tax.)

That would mean, however, passing off today's expenses to a future generation and leaving little money for other things the county may need to build.

Plus, that particular type of sales tax typically can pay only for construction and some equipment purchases, not operating costs.

It's possible, Johnson said, that the county or city of Tampa could create special taxing districts around new train stations that dedicate future growth in property taxes nearby toward operating costs.

That's mostly quick brainstorming, he said, adding Higginbotham has not formally asked for that analysis yet.

Higginbotham said he has not proposed extending the existing sales tax and would not say whether that's something he is considering.

"I want to keep my cards close to my vest," he said.

Interim County Administrator Mike Merrill noted there are a number of things commissioners and the county hope to be able to build in the future, from road widening projects to new jail space. Committing future tax revenue to something like rail would make it a challenge to do some of those things.

"There's a lot to be said to be doing a leg of the rail to show people how it works and get people comfortable with it," Merrill said. "It's a matter of choices."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/hillsborough-county-to-look-at-options-for-light-rail-without-new-tax/1138776

Any idea what the county has planned for the county's health care? Once much of the national health care kicks in by 2014, much of the county's health care will be covered by it. But I heard some people who wants to keep the county system after 2014. Half a penny goes to that too.

Single tracking with sidings is the best way to reduce costs and get this first leg up. IMO it is not half-assing the solution as this has been a great way to build out a system at minimal up front costs, ala Baltimore, Sacramento, Ottawa, etc. DMU's would reduce the costs further by eliminating catenary, among other operating, construction, and engineering costs. When (if it is in our time frame) the O-train in Ottawa replaces their DMU's with EMU's as their plan is then we could potentially get three trainsets for a great deal, further reducing the cost to implement the starter system.

Steve

Whatever. The point is, it is not dead. It will not be dead. Something will get built. They just need to be creative with the money.

not super familiar with florida taxation law, but a special taxation district would need to be pretty big to collect enough TIF to fund a significant part of a rail line. there are other options -- more extensive exactions on what would ideally be higher density development along such a line -- but in tampa's case i'd imagine their usefulness would be limited, and limiting as a means of financing construction. long term operating costs might be subsidized by such programs, but that's also unusual: usually that'd money go elsewhere in the area (street improvements, affordable housing...).

we'll see what they come up with, but it's going to be uphill. i'm not opposed to a demonstration line.

We will have to see what comes up. If the economy tanks again in 2012, which is very likely in my view, then there will be no support for any future tax increases or adjustments (other than decreases).

Light rail isn't dead, but it is likely it will be shoved to 2020 or beyond. Commuter rail also, unless something comes up before then to fund it.

I am thinking about the use of DMUs since hearing the Ed Turanchik interview on BN9. I think it would be good to get a starter line built somewhere cheaply and quickly. I am wondering what segment of the current alignment is projected to be the most used. Perhaps the line from MLK to USF or even Ybor to Gandy...

I agree. As I have been saying for a while, cut the cost by deploying DMU's, single tracking with passings, and simple stops.

Ybor to Gandy has been out of the question for a while. The projected most used segment would be USF to DT by a long shot. TIA-DT would be great, but ridership was not as strong.

Steve

I agree. As I have been saying for a while, cut the cost by deploying DMU's, single tracking with passings, and simple stops.

Ybor to Gandy has been out of the question for a while. The projected most used segment would be USF to DT by a long shot. TIA-DT would be great, but ridership was not as strong.

Steve
But you need to factor what we don't have at the moment and that is High Speed Rail. Do we not want to have a connection between our airport and the HSR station? Will having a connection between the two actually "steal" passengars from OIA that many of us believe.

I still think we should do a USF-DT segment first due to the fact that we already have that potential of ridership in that area. We're still guessing on the impact of a DT-TIA segment and we would be watching it very closely the first and second years to see if what we believe would happen is actually happening.

I think business wise one could justify the TIA-DT route as a starter route. The business community was/is behind that route. I was strictly speaking of ridership projections from the last studies done.

Steve

I totally agree with a starter/demo line somewhere. I think the best choice will be TIA/DT should HSR be given the full green light (which I am really hoping for) in Feb/March. If HSR fails though (due to Scott making a boondoggle argument), then the focus should be shifted to DT/USF.

Either way with Light Rail, I strongly believe that the key to having better transit in the coming years will be BRT and then Commuter Rail from the north. LRT then would follow.

I haven't reviewed the reports, but for the Gandy -Ybor route I was thinking of S. Pinellas commuters driving across the bridge and riding the train the rest of the way. If not for weekday use, weekend use along that route could be good. You'd be covering many of the hot spots with parking Garages at either end(they'd have to build one on the south end) -B2B&Macdill a few blocks from Bayshore, SOHO, Hyde Park, Arts District, Ybor-. Could you imagine the benefit of having DMUs running this route for these next few weekends?

I think it's important to get a useful line up and running to model to the community how rail can really help. Not wait for endless reports and studies and try to build an expensive, expansive LR system all at once. That can be added later as the economy hopefully improves and people see the comparative benefits.

I haven't reviewed the reports, but for the Gandy -Ybor route I was thinking of S. Pinellas commuters driving across the bridge and riding the train the rest of the way. If not for weekday use, weekend use along that route could be good. You'd be covering many of the hot spots with parking Garages at either end(they'd have to build one on the south end) -B2B&Macdill a few blocks from Bayshore, SOHO, Hyde Park, Arts District, Ybor-. Could you imagine the benefit of having DMUs running this route for these next few weekends?
Not a bad idea, but that part of the 2002 plan was killed a long time ago and was not really concidered in the recent plans, or in any active plan. The current thoughts are for a N/S route and a E/W route along I-275. Also, there is a dark horse bid for a N/S commuter rail line. The CR line could be funded by FDOT among other funding sources, but it would depend on getting the CSX line.

With that said, most talk has centered along a E/W route from TIA to DT and have it be locally funded with some state and/or federal funds.

I think it's important to get a useful line up and running to model to the community how rail can really help. Not wait for endless reports and studies and try to build an expensive, expansive LR system all at once. That can be added later as the economy hopefully improves and people see the comparative benefits.

No one on here would disagree. However, if we are gunning for state or federal funds then there are a myriad of studies that have to be completed to even have a chance at getting some funds. If we only went local for funds then we still have to complete a lot of studies before we can build. This is just the way it is in the USA for projects like this. If we were in China or India it would be another matter.....

Steve

The E/W TPA-DT route should really be considered the Westshore-DT route, as that line would connect Tampa's two largest business concentrations. The airport is just a bonus if you will, as getting DT-Westshore connected is more important. It would further concentrate economic growth along that alignment. DC metro benefits the entire business community connecting local neighborhoods from Silver Springs to Huntington/Alexandira. The fact that Reagan National just happened to be convenient was a bonus.


The Westshore-DT is also pretty high dollar as you would need to build from scratch. The Ybor to Gandy route at least has the tracks in place. Stations aren't a terrible expense and there is good access to what people would want all along that corridor. Wrestling the tracks away from CSX is the big problem.

it has to go to the airport. any system that does not go to the airport (in pretty much any city where the airport is anywhere near the city) is stupid . . . period. If they build one leg it should be dt-TIA for a variety of reasons.
1) more business users - why rely on just commuters
2) more likelihood of spinoff development, which will drive more ridership - in a cycle - and more likelihood of dense development.
3) connect the business centers and the airport
4) helps with conventions
5) if HSR ever gets built, it will connect
6) closer to pinellas to connect any system they have to DT and the airport
7) shorter distance

Gandy is dead. South Tampa residents killed it. Not even worth discussing.

With that said, most talk has centered along a E/W route from TIA to DT and have it be locally funded with some state and/or federal funds.

State funds? Yeah right, Scott will never approve of that, especially with the HSR debacle right now.

Federal funds? Prob not after 2012, when the GOP will likely take over the White House & much of Congress. It will be pro-status quo, pro auto industry all over again.

Federal funds? Prob not after 2012, when the GOP will likely take over the White House & much of Congress. It will be pro-status quo, pro auto industry all over again.
lololol... Keep smoking the good stuff!

State and federal funds do still exist for transit. It may be a tougher competition than before but they do still exist. It is not like they just vanished from the budgets.

Steve

I didn't say, don't go to the airport. I said focus on improving the business corridor and treat the airport connection as a bonus. You don't run enough business traffic through the airport for it to get priority over the Westshore business district.

Since when did south Tampa residents kill the Gandy route? It was south Tampa residents that benefitted most and supported the demonstration run a couple years ago. Some south of Gandy folks might not like it, but generally their gripe is with any road changes. Also they tend to skew older and lower income. I think support is solid from Gandy north, where you have younger and more money.

lololol... Keep smoking the good stuff!

WHAT? I'm just being sarcastic (maybe not good at it)

I didn't say, don't go to the airport. I said focus on improving the business corridor and treat the airport connection as a bonus. You don't run enough business traffic through the airport for it to get priority over the Westshore business district.

Since when did south Tampa residents kill the Gandy route? It was south Tampa residents that benefitted most and supported the demonstration run a couple years ago. Some south of Gandy folks might not like it, but generally their gripe is with any road changes. Also they tend to skew older and lower income. I think support is solid from Gandy north, where you have younger and more money.

South Tampa loves to kill everything dealing with transportation, including the Gandy Connector, so I am not surprised.

YET, they allowed WalMart to be built, so there...... :bash:

^Everyone loves cheap toilet paper, especially people who are full of $hit.

^^
Yup, & I still see that gigantic sign alongside Gandy, thats not going anywhere I guess......but thats getting off topic a bit

I didn't say, don't go to the airport. I said focus on improving the business corridor and treat the airport connection as a bonus. You don't run enough business traffic through the airport for it to get priority over the Westshore business district.

Since when did south Tampa residents kill the Gandy route? It was south Tampa residents that benefitted most and supported the demonstration run a couple years ago. Some south of Gandy folks might not like it, but generally their gripe is with any road changes. Also they tend to skew older and lower income. I think support is solid from Gandy north, where you have younger and more money.

I think it will be important getting people to ride rail that don't already use bus transit. I am just considering existing rails right now...The route through East Tampa will probably be filled with a lot of former bus riders out of site from car commuters. It won't have the same impact of generating interest as a South Tampa route. Also I am pretty sure South Tampa has more political clout the does East Tampa. These are just some unrefined thoughts....

I didn't say, don't go to the airport. I said focus on improving the business corridor and treat the airport connection as a bonus. You don't run enough business traffic through the airport for it to get priority over the Westshore business district.

I never said don't go to Westshore. Frankly, this is one of the issues I have constantly brought up and gotten the completely blank looks from the planners/HART. They simply don't want to go into the heart of Westshore because then they would have to deal with Kennedy and or Westshore the road. It will go down Cypress and turn up to Intl Plaza then the airport. Not what I really want, but probably what will happen. In any case, it must go to the airport.

Since when did south Tampa residents kill the Gandy route? It was south Tampa residents that benefitted most and supported the demonstration run a couple years ago. Some south of Gandy folks might not like it, but generally their gripe is with any road changes. Also they tend to skew older and lower income. I think support is solid from Gandy north, where you have younger and more money.

Since people in Palma Ceia did not want people from east Tampa to take a train into their neighborhoods, a la Georgetown in DC. It has been years.

Proposal: Light rail along 275 downtown to Tampa International
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Mark Holan , Staff Writer
Date: Monday, February 7, 2011, 4:25pm EST

Hillsborough County transportation planners now recommend building light-rail transit either alongside or within the Interstate 275 median to connect downtown to Tampa International Airport and the University of South Florida.

George W. Walton, vice president of Parsons Brinckerhoff in Tampa, John N. Gobis, a Newport, R.I.-based management and marketing consultant, and Mary Shavalier, chief of planning and program development for the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority, made the suggestions to the HART board Monday. Such a system could be built cheaper and operate faster than light-rail along CSX right of way through northeast Tampa or along Cypress Street west of downtown, they said.

The planners’ suggestions to the HART board came three months after county voters rejected a proposed 1-cent sales tax increase to pay for the system. HART and other transit supporters were criticized for not selecting specific light-rail routes before the referendum.

The HART board did not vote Monday on the suggested proposed 275 route. Instead, board members said they want more detail about how to pay for the project without raising taxes, including public-private partnerships.

It would cost more that $2 billion to build the 27- to 29-mile system, the planners said. They recommended building a demonstration route to TIA starting at around $645 million, compared with $1.36 billion for the northeast segment.

The west route also provides opportunities to partner with the airport, which owns land at Hillsborough Avenue and Hoover Boulevard that could be developed as a maintenance yard for the system.

The airport also owns a 3.4-mile railroad spur from Hillsborough to Linebaugh Avenue that could help the proposed system penetrate deeper into residential areas, potentially increasing ridership to about 11,000 people a day. The proposed line would have 10 stations, including one stop at TIA.

Building the 12.4-mile line from downtown to Linebaugh would cost about $850 million. It would have annual operating costs of up to $8.5 million.
..

Proposal: Light rail along 275 downtown to Tampa International
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Mark Holan , Staff Writer
Date: Monday, February 7, 2011, 4:25pm EST

Hillsborough County transportation planners now recommend building light-rail transit either alongside or within the Interstate 275 median to connect downtown to Tampa International Airport and the University of South Florida.

George W. Walton, vice president of Parsons Brinckerhoff in Tampa, John N. Gobis, a Newport, R.I.-based management and marketing consultant, and Mary Shavalier, chief of planning and program development for the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority, made the suggestions to the HART board Monday. Such a system could be built cheaper and operate faster than light-rail along CSX right of way through northeast Tampa or along Cypress Street west of downtown, they said.

The planners’ suggestions to the HART board came three months after county voters rejected a proposed 1-cent sales tax increase to pay for the system. HART and other transit supporters were criticized for not selecting specific light-rail routes before the referendum.

The HART board did not vote Monday on the suggested proposed 275 route. Instead, board members said they want more detail about how to pay for the project without raising taxes, including public-private partnerships.

It would cost more that $2 billion to build the 27- to 29-mile system, the planners said. They recommended building a demonstration route to TIA starting at around $645 million, compared with $1.36 billion for the northeast segment.

The west route also provides opportunities to partner with the airport, which owns land at Hillsborough Avenue and Hoover Boulevard that could be developed as a maintenance yard for the system.

The airport also owns a 3.4-mile railroad spur from Hillsborough to Linebaugh Avenue that could help the proposed system penetrate deeper into residential areas, potentially increasing ridership to about 11,000 people a day. The proposed line would have 10 stations, including one stop at TIA.

Building the 12.4-mile line from downtown to Linebaugh would cost about $850 million. It would have annual operating costs of up to $8.5 million.
..

I say put it back on the ballot for 2012 with a concrete initial phase from the airport to downtown. Have a referendum on a special taxing district in the immediate area(s) where light rail would be built. Do the same for phase II, III, and beyond and basically let the people and property owners gaining the most from the line(s) decide whether or not they want to jump on board or not. Let the NIMBY's stay out in the pastures stuck in traffic all the way to Wiregrass Mall!

the hillsborough county commissioners have aprove 5-2 vote not public for to raise the gas tax and special taxing district.

^Precisely why this must be a Tampa-only project and a Tampa-only vote. I wouldn't include the county in the vote or in the plans, as there is no functional need to do so. All the county will do is screw it up more than the city would screw it up alone anyways.

both lines are in county and city limits, fowler ave is county bounty line for the usf line and hillsborough ave is for airport line and hart want put operation and maintaince yard north of hillsborough ave.

I really don't understand how stuff in Tampa costs such much while several other communities are developing similar projects for hundreds of millions less. I'm also not really crazy about putting LRT down I-275. Its been proven over and over again that putting LRT in the middle of expressways tends to limit TOD potential.

I say build commuter rail first, then light rail, but that's just me.

i thing we should put the train on the north side instead of the middle just like denver did it they pretty good tod, i been to chicago seen subway in the mediem i don't care for it.

Because of reconstruction of I-275 they have to put it in the middle. I am personally not too worried about the TOD potential (or lack of it) along that portion as there are only two stops along the interstate anyway.

Steve

^I thought that they were going to put it along the north side of I-275? I haven't seen anything recent. Did they make a final decision?



I say build commuter rail first, then light rail, but that's just me.
Commuter rail will FAIL here miserably. Our suburbs are not even remotely nodal or even axial, they are a matrix (We don't move from one place to another and then back again, people live anywhere and commute anywhere). Commuter rail will be a huge waste of money, as will just about any mass transit solution that we try to adapt to our unplanned suburbs.

For transit to to not only work in this region but actually be cost effective, we must basically transform the built environment that transit will serve. We fundamentally cannot transform numerous neighborhoods across the city all at once. We'll be lucky to transform already established activity centers in downtown and Westshore.

We need to be start by linking what little urbanity we currently have developed in downtown and westshore with proper circulators in each district, and further change the zoning/building codes to encourage a better walking environment than the crap we have now. As we're doing that, we can link the two districts to each other, HSR (if built) and TIA, with BRT or a LRT line (depending upon projected ridership, my guess is BRT using HOV/HOT lanes would be better), and then after downtown and westshore take off, we can start redeveloping available land at the stops between westshore and downtown. Years later once that whole line is humming along and ridership is doing well, then we could afford to extend the system north to USF, and then start all over again with enacting zoning/building codes to make the areas around stations into dense walkable developments.

The HART plan is waaaay too ambitious for what the morons in this city will ever be willing to pay for. We're all being WAY too ambitious. It's time to accept the incontrovertible truth that we live in a region of lesser people who just want the bare minimum they need to get by. Anyone who aspires to something more than what tampa is either needs to accept that the pace of change willbe glacial and take your entire lifetime to happen, or you need to move to a city where the citizens are interested in getting more out of life than the bare minimum.

Its not even that its over ambitious, its a let's settle for what's cheap route. Its like running out after Christmas with gift cards in hand to buy something, anything, whether it fits or not. In an effort to get something done, you end up doing more damage than good, just because its cheaper. So the result will be a cheaper system that doesn't fill a need AND because of its location it becomes a daily billboard of how poorly thought out it was. Or, you could spend a little more and get something that works, serves a need, and most importantly can provide political ammunition for future expansion because it does work. Hit the areas where you have a lot of people making short trips with a decent level of congestion throughout the day. Kinda sounds like Westshore to DT/Ybor to me.

the only Commuter rail rail line that has good chance have good ridership is lakeland that connects to sunrail

Because of reconstruction of I-275 they have to put it in the middle. I am personally not too worried about the TOD potential (or lack of it) along that portion as there are only two stops along the interstate anyway.

And one is smack in the projects

^^
Yes, but where else would they put that eastern station?

Doesn't Denver have a portion of light rail alongside their highway? I think it's Denver, might be another city. Be interesting to see whats the difference between the line alongside the highway and the line that isn't when it comes to property values and TOD development.

Another article about the starter line. I guess we can get funding if the county commission is willing to raise the gas tax.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2011/feb/07/hart-exploring-demonstration-light-rail-line/news-money/

Regarding the projects, and there being no other options: exactly, its a bad idea. You don't put the gazebo next to the compost pile because you're too cheap to level a different part of your yard. Its making the the worst compromise at the beginning. Its a panic induced move coming out of the recent elections and it stems from the desire to get anything built, regardless of quality/efficiency.

I always thought it would follow I-275. The right of way is already there, and the southbound rebuild can be (re)designed to include rail along the north side of the freeway. What I like about this line is that it will likely be used throughout the day (workers traveling back and forth for meetings and meals, and business travelors coming in or heading to the airport), and not just at peak hours. If we Pinellas voters approve our plans in 2012, we could get all of the major urban centers connected relatively quickly, making it even more compelling. The only downside I see is the area between DT and Westshore may take longer to redevelop.

No disrespect to anyone, but if you think that Cypress Blvd was going to be a viable option as a transit corridor, then you're missing the boat big time (and so was HART for even considering it. I'm sure the consultants got a chuckle out of it, but happily took the money to "study" it anyways). The neighborhood such a line would have gone through has almost no capability to handle dense, walkable development, and the people who live there sure as hell don't want it either. Water, electric, telecommunications, sidewalks all would have to be built at considerable cost... Worse yet, the roads are thin, narrow, have no drainage control structures, and couldn't handle truck traffic without being rebuilt. Nearly all neighborhood intersections do not meet turning radius code for ladder trucks required for construction over 3 floors. And I could go on... This doesn't mean that there is nowhere to build more densely, it just means that doing so would require considerable heavy lifting, in terms of planning and politics. Conversely, the neighborhoods along I-275 are more commercial in nature, are already much more densely developed, and will be practically cheering for LRT to be developed. That will make a huge difference when it comes to actual real world development that can get financing and be profitable, rather than theoretical redevelopment on a planning map.

^Precisely why this must be a Tampa-only project and a Tampa-only vote. I wouldn't include the county in the vote or in the plans, as there is no functional need to do so. All the county will do is screw it up more than the city would screw it up alone anyways.

I agree 100% on this J! Let's see how they feel 10+ years from now when traffic is soo bad, they can't even drive in to Tampa. I'm originally from New York and lived in Brooklyn for the better part of my life. Even though the boroughs are cities within themselves, I can tell you that they are NYC's suburbs and people hate going into the "city" unless they absolutely have to. This is in a city where there is and has been a superior transportation system in place forever.
Cities like Tampa should learn from what's happened in these more established locales and try to plan ahead but they won't because of all the NIMBY's or know it all's!
I say build it in the city proper and let them beg (then make them pay) to have some kind of cummuter rail bring them to the city core. While the numbers don't seem to make sense now, they will in years to come as thousands of baby boomers start retiring and heading south, permanently for their retirement. It will happen and as states continue to push for the "best" jobs, Florida will be in the running simply because all these northener's will be flocking to retirement including those that make or help influence the decisions on where companies relocate. Remember that these same decision makers will have kids and grandkids that they will want to close to home...THEIR NEW HOMES IN FLORIDA! Better start thinking of tomorrow today or were are going to be wishing we did!

^^
Ha, I won't hold my breath on even that right now. Yes I do think that a city vote won't be a bad idea, but with all the teabagging going on right now, I don't see another transit vote happening for a long time. Furthermore, I see HSR being axed completely soon, if not by Scott, then by Washington.

I'm glad you feel free to rant without any basis in fact.

^For some people, it's what the internet was made for! lol

LOL ~ Smiley & Jason

Everyone keeps focusing on the House, but the reality is the Senate is still in Democratic hands, and even if it was in Republican hands, once plans get set in motion its extremely difficult to change them in the Senate. What will probably happen is the House Republicans will be all bluster, get a few concessions and than use their setbacks as fundraising opportunities. Its been the same thing with the anti-abortion and cultural conservatives for decades, turn every defeat into a fundraising opportunity.

The only anti-spending at all levels politicians are the true believers among the teabaggers. The rest of the Republicans talk a good game but when it comes down to it, take every dollar they can for their districts. This happens every time an ominbus transportation bill comes up. This happened after the stimulus bill passed, its very easy to find pictures of Republican Members holding up those big checks for stimulus related projects. HSR is just like the interstate highway system, sure 20% will try to turn it down and will be successful in holding back their state economically, but the rest will take the money and either crow about it (mainly Dems), or bitch about it and take the money anyway and not really put up a big fight (mainstream Republicans).



Sorry forgot what thread this was, man I'm getting old. But I still think a Tampa centric vote would pass.

So with High Speed Rail likely DEAD at this point, the planned intermodal station at Marion will likely be scrapped too. What should happen now? Should Tampa refocus on possibly having LRT come out of Union Station?

Tampa should focus on expanding its streetcar system. It should dump its heritage cars and acquire modern, multicar trams (you should be able to get used ones from Europe). I'd start by finishing the loop through DT, than figure out what else you can afford. The Feds are passing out money to local governments with plans that are close to ready to go status. Atlanta just got funding for a 2 mile run from DT to the King Center.

I'd lobby Pam and Kathy to put something together quickly so that some of the HSR money could come direct to Tampa to finish the DT-Ybor loop. Its a lot cheaper to that than the entire HSR system, and Tampa has shown a desire to do transit alternatives in the city itself. Ideally you could get funds to finish the loop, maybe money to run further north on either Florida or Nebraska (Florida has a better shot at sustained redevelopment), probably money to do that walking/jogging path under the crosstown, and probably money for other light pedestrian/bike work throughout the city. With a decent effort you should be able to get $50M or so, and that would put a serious dent in needed projects.

I really like the interview of Pam Iorio about this disaster. I think she would be a great future governor of Florida.

Maybe they'll find a way around the governor and the state. And if the state has to be involved, I am sure most democrats will be in favor of HSR and many republicans, too. Perhaps they can achieve a supermajority to overrule any veto by Scott.

Anyway, the corridor for HSR should be kept for a possible future development of HSR.

So with High Speed Rail likely DEAD at this point, the planned intermodal station at Marion will likely be scrapped too. What should happen now? Should Tampa refocus on possibly having LRT come out of Union Station?

I thought Union Station would make a good terminal for a future commuter rail system, assuming it would run on CSX. The problem, as others have said, is everything should have been planned to originate at one terminal -- LRT, HSR, regional commuter rail, bus and street car, wither that is Union Station, Marion or the new intermodal station. Too bad the vision was not there for a truly integrated system from the start. We'll probably still end up with two or three separate terminals for all of these modes. That's fine, as long as they are connected, preferrably light rail.

^I would have thought light rail and commuter rail would have joined up at the proposed HSR station.

Unfortunately, Marion station is a little "out of the way" for the streetcar but since it doesn't originate a ton of traffic (in fact, I think had HSR gone through it would have dwarfed the Amtrak ridership). I think the streetcar if it extends north won't cut over to Nebraska to go north. (I would think Franklin St or Florida Ave would be the logical choice)

^Yeah, the only way I think the streetcar would hit Amtrak is going E/W on Zack/Twiggs over to Channelside to form a loop.