http://www.lastreetcar.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/billboard-300x87.jpg
Los Angeles Streetcar
http://www.lastreetcar.org/
http://www.lastreetcar.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/LASI_CoreServiceArea.jpg

The $100 Million Ride
Everyone Wants a Broadway Streetcar. The Question Is, How Much Will the Public Have to Pay?
by Richard Guzmán
Published: Friday, September 24, 2010 4:19 PM PDT

DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES - This week, 14th District City Councilman José Huizar will find himself in well-heeled company when he hosts a cocktail fundraiser for the proposed $100 million Downtown L.A. Streetcar. His co-sponsors at the Sept. 30 L.A. Live event are billionaire philanthropist Eli Broad, mall creator and possible 2013 mayoral candidate Rick Caruso, and Tim Leiweke, the powerful head of Anschutz Entertainment Group, the company behind Staples Center and L.A. Live.

Officials with Los Angeles Streetcar, Inc. (LASI) are not expecting to raise millions for the project at the fundraiser. In fact, if the streetcar, a key component of Huizar’s Bringing Back Broadway initiative, is ever to come to fruition, the councilman will have to go to people far removed from his three co-hosts: He’ll need to persuade Downtown Los Angeles property owners to dig into their pockets and pay for the bulk of the project.

In a sense, the VIPs in the house at the L.A. Live event may be the ones who own buildings along the proposed four-mile route. Huizar will hope to show them that such a method paid dividends in Portland and Seattle, two cities that have streetcars thanks in part to self-assessments.

“I think property owners will see that a small investment will give them a huge return,” Huizar said last week. “As you saw in Portland, there were businesses not doing well. When streetcars went in, these businesses were booming.”

In Portland, about 20% of a $100 million streetcar project was paid through an assessment district. In Seattle, about 60% of the money for a $55 million streetcar project came from property owners along the route.

In both Seattle and Portland, officials created what is known as a Special Benefit District to help pay for the construction and operation of the streetcar. LASI is studying the method and, while rates have not been determined, early projections are that 40-60% of the total cost will have to come from property owners. In Downtown Los Angeles that could amount to more than $50 million.

LASI is conducting an economic analysis to determine what an assessment district would look like and who would be taxed — whether it would be just property owners on the proposed route linking L.A. Live, Bunker Hill and Broadway, or also landlords in the surrounding area and other private-sector funding options.

“There are a lot of different variables, so we spent a lot of time coming up with those figures,” said Dennis Allen, executive director of LASI. “We’re getting there now. We’re in the very final stages. I would say in the first part of October we’re going to start having real conversations with the property owners about what the costs look like.”

Waiting for Numbers

St. Vincent’s Jewelry Center co-owner Peklar Pilavjian, who has about 300,000 square feet of space on Broadway, is one of the people waiting to find out what it would cost him to jump on board with the streetcar, which Huizar recently said would be pushed back from an anticipated 2014 debut to a later, still undefined date.

Pilavjian said the streetcar would benefit Downtown, but before deciding to take on an additional tax, he needs to know solid numbers.

“I would think it would be beneficial, but I can’t say yes or no yet. It’s all about the rates,” he said.

Streetcar proponents like Huizar and Allen said the plan involves convincing property owners that any expense for the streetcar is really a business investment.

“The increase in property value far outweighs any type of a cost,” Allen said. “Transit investment really drives property value.”

To make their case, Huizar and Allen are using facts and figures from the two northern, streetcar-boasting cities. According to Bringing Back Broadway, the Portland streetcar system is estimated to have generated $3.5 billion in economic development on and around the streetcar route since opening in 2001; 55% of it occurred within one block of the streetcar line.

Rick Gustafson, executive director of Portland Streetcar, who was also a consultant for the Seattle streetcar (which opened in 2007) and currently serves as a consultant for LASI, said he had to convince property owners in those cities that the investment would pay off. The toughest to persuade, he said, are people who own property but don’t see the benefit of growth in value.

Gustafson said that small retailers may not want to take on the added expense. He said he also gets opposition from absentee landlords.

A Lot of Questions

“Taxing” property owners for services beyond what government provides is not new in Downtown Los Angeles. The community’s wealth of business improvement districts all came about because landowners felt they needed more than the city offers, and they were willing to pay for it.

It is a situation Carol Schatz, president and CEO of the Central City Association, knows well. She spearheaded the creation of the Downtown Center Business Improvement District, the area’s largest BID. She had to convince property owners to self-fund cleaning, safety and marketing campaigns.

Schatz, who sits on the LASI board of trustees, noted that when it comes to the streetcar, there are many unanswered questions about the assessment. She pointed out that people along the route have the economy in mind.

“It’s a big undertaking at a terrible time,” said Schatz. “It’ll depend on the situation of each property owner. Many understand the potential positive impact, but if you can’t afford an assessment before the benefits kick in, it’ll be difficult.”

Allen actually thinks time is on their side. He pointed out that if an assessment district is approved by the private sector, they would raise bond financing for it, which could take a couple years. The tax payment could be deferred into the future when the economy is better, he said.

Schatz said that having big names behind the project is important and can convince others that it’s a beneficial venture. She said she employed a similar tactic when setting up the BID — she secured the support of large property owners before reaching out to smaller ones.

Gustafson agrees with the tactic.

“This event on Sept. 30 will have its impact because it has major property owners jumping on board,” he said. “That’s what they need, the big names talking to their colleagues so they can convey that it would be a good investment for Downtown property owners.”

Long View

David Gray, who owns about 65,000 square feet of space on Broadway and sits on the LASI Board of Trustees, said that despite the tough economy, property owners need to have a long view. He called supporting a streetcar assessment tax a “no brainer.”

“This is a chance to participate. The government can’t do it, and it really will benefit everyone,” he said. “This will be the single biggest piece of infrastructure that will guarantee success and reinforce the whole Downtown area.”

Not all property owners see it that way.

Robert Clinton, the longtime owner of Clifton’s Cafeteria, cited the poor state of the economy. Although he sold his business last week, he still owns the building at 648 S. Broadway, and would be impacted in an assessment district.

“These trolleys are great in other cities. They’re a great way to move people around. But the time to do that would have been in the good years,” he said. “I want to see the government putting in at least as much as they’re asking of taxpayers, because if the government can’t afford to do it, why ask us? That’s not fair.”

Huizar and LASI officials are also looking at local and federal funding for the streetcar. They have raised about $10 million from the CRA, but were dealt a blow last month when their request for a $25 million federal grant for the streetcar was rejected. At the time, Jessica Wethington McClean, executive director of Bringing Back Broadway, said federal officials indicated they want the project to have a local matching funds program in place, and want the streetcar’s environmental process to be further along before money is allocated.

No matter what the future holds, Huizar has resolved to push forward on the effort. He thinks that people are ready for it.

“One way or another I’ve committed to find the funding,” Huizar said. “The time is right and we’re going to make it happen.”


Read More: http://www.ladowntownnews.com/articles/2010/09/25/news/doc4c9d30cea8322171652161.txt

One problem already in this plan is providing too much parking for this area. Why provide an overabundance of parking when your aim is to get people out of their cars?

This may be a pretty basic question, but I'm unfamiliar with the project so l'll ask it nonetheless. Who is expected to use a downtown streetcar, and what are they expected to use it for? People like me who live out of town can use the Blue Line to get to Staples Center/LA Live. If I had to go somewhere specific downtown, I'd probably still prefer to use my car. The only use for it I can think of is people grabbing lunch during work or downtown residents going to the grocery store. What is it used for in Seattle and Portland?

that's what it would be used for the most, getting around downtown. if you're already taking the blue line to Staples/LA Live, i don't see why you would take your car anywhere else downtown. parking will rip a hole through your wallet. just blue line it up here and walk everywhere else downtown. once here, nothing is that far away.

but say you and your friends see a staples event or catch a movie at regal and when you get out, you'd rather go to little tokyo or chinatown to eat. the streetcar will get you there or at least close to there and it won't take as long as it would to walk there (plus it might be cheaper than jumping back on the metrorail).

if you already live here, the concept is the same. at least you don't have to pay $1.50 to take the subway to ralphs and $1.50 to get back. i don't know the fare for streetcars, but it's usually significantly cheaper than grade-separate urban rail.

iShUNR_xAjo#!

Cool new video. The animation by Portland-based Newlands and Company — a firm that specializes in transportation-related renderings — seamlessly blended live-action streetscapes with the rendered public transit, showing the car passing by L.A. Live, the Walt Disney Concert Hall and the Orpheum Theatre.

h5C65fZLwg8

In my mind, the streetcar has two uses: one is for tourism. The Convention Center and LA Live is going to attract people to DT once. Once they are here, they need something to do at night or for spouses/kids to do during the day. The streetcar gives an attractive and fun way of getting to Bway, Grand Ave, the Civic Center and close to Little Tokyo and Olvera St. The hoped for payoff is that visitors stay an extra day or report they enjoyed the convention and schedulers respond my scheduling more conventions.

The other is for movement within DT. Not everyone wants to walk 5 or 10 blocks to go shopping or for dinner. I would expect eventually there will be a spur east of Alameda to the river, assuming that area develops with density. In theory this could be handled with DASH buses but there is some psychological advantage to tracks.

Always risky, however. You can't run the lines through streets with welfare hotels and broken sidewalks and get much bang for your buck.

Since LA goes for a different style from most American cities, I wonder if they'll choose streetcar manufacturers other than United Streetcars or Inekon.

Some other examples of streetcars that are about the right length for American streets.

Siemens Combino for Yarra Trams in Melbourne.
http://www.thecollectormm.com.au/gallery/photography/Trams/slides/Combino.jpg
http://www.thecollectormm.com.au/gallery/photography/Trams/slides/Combino.jpg

Siemens Combino for Toronto (Rejected in favour of Bombardier's product).
http://media.mmgcommunity.topscms.com/images/c2/85/f9682ceb4fe089c98e71566df3a6.jpeg
http://media.mmgcommunity.topscms.com/images/c2/85/f9682ceb4fe089c98e71566df3a6.jpeg

The new Kinki-Sharyo hybrid streetcar.
http://www.kippo.or.jp/upfile/kippo_news/20100914111129_news_img1.jpg
http://www.kippo.or.jp/upfile/kippo_news/20100914111129_news_img1.jpg

i like those models.

This will be one more issue. SF gets plenty of bang from the old fashioned cable cars. If the streetscape on Bway, Olympic, Fig, etc., is going to be retro (lampposts, signs to match the vintage buildings) then old fashioned, such as the original trolleys, would make sense.

But sleek and modern makes more sense if you are expanding beyond tourist destinations.

i don't think the whole streetcar pathway has to match vintage/classic streetscapes. or even match modern streetscapes. the difference in surroundings make it interesting already. barely any of the streets SF's old fashioned cable cars travel are decorated to match a classic setting. especially on the east, central, and south sides. and it's still interesting.

downtown would be very boring if the streetscape all looked the same (even if it only follows a cable car pathway). plus, it would be awesome if our cars were distinct from SF's and were recognized as LA's.

This will be one more issue. SF gets plenty of bang from the old fashioned cable cars. If the streetscape on Bway, Olympic, Fig, etc., is going to be retro (lampposts, signs to match the vintage buildings) then old fashioned, such as the original trolleys, would make sense.

But sleek and modern makes more sense if you are expanding beyond tourist destinations.

I sure do hope that the LA streetcar will be more than a tourist trap.

croyboy: could be but it would strike me as amateur brand management to have lamps and signs from the 1920's, buildings from the same period and sleek streetcars. Of course, off-Broadway that are going to pass lots of different styles.

manrush: me too, but the SF cable cars are a great tourist trap (some locals ride it too, but mostly tourists, at least during tourist seasons). Don't complain about any use you can get. And residents in general shouldn't object strongly to old-timey designs, although some will.

actually the new gold line cars design works out great. it kinda passes for a 1920's style as well as blending with more recent time periods. i think a similar design in streetcars would work for all corridors that they may pass through.

i don't think the whole streetcar pathway has to match vintage/classic streetscapes. or even match modern streetscapes. the difference in surroundings make it interesting already. barely any of the streets SF's old fashioned cable cars travel are decorated to match a classic setting. especially on the east, central, and south sides. and it's still interesting.

downtown would be very boring if the streetscape all looked the same (even if it only follows a cable car pathway). plus, it would be awesome if our cars were distinct from SF's and were recognized as LA's.

I agree. Although it would be nice if LA would hearken back to the old PCC days without the need for having 'ye olde time trolley.' Look at the silver Breda cars on the Gold Line. They have a very streamline moderne look without being retro.

Don't shoot me but I think LA needs to jump on this street car fad before it's over.

Vintage streetcars will only compliment the old buildings, Angels Flight and add charm to the city center (look at Downtown Frisco for example), and about those modern streetcars. They look like buses on rails.

Don't shoot me but I think LA needs to jump on this street car fad before it's over.

If that's the case then LA has all the time in the world because many MANY cities across the US are proposing a street car system.

And we all know the light years that it takes to get from proposal to shovel in the ground. Urban redevelopment fads come and go like concrete plazas. It could be that once cities that really don't need these streetcars but push to get one or two and they fail the Feds will begin to be more critical of handing out money like candy to every city that wants one. I'm not even sure that an LA streetcar is a right fit for this city since our bus system is so mature and well rode.

generally agree. But I am assuming that in tourist dominated areas it will be not only a means of transportation but part of the attraction.

As a general means of transport between DT and SM, Sunset and the 10 it would be a disastrous idea. As we have discussed in other threads, major cities (NY, London, Paris) got rid of surface rail in urban areas starting 100 years ago. Gotta go subway in these areas.

Short stretches no more than 3 miles is good.

generally agree. But I am assuming that in tourist dominated areas it will be not only a means of transportation but part of the attraction.



Look at how many people ride the trolley at The Grove/Americana.

3 miles is about it, although somehow I think that sending it up Sunset toward Silver Lake would work also.

The Grove trolley isn't really transit; it's almost pure tourist hook. I mean, it's like 200 yards long. But that's sort of the point: it grabs tourists who are at Farmer's Mkt and CBS and takes them into the retail and dining areas of The Grove. Same idea for grabbing conventioneers and taking them to Bway and the rest of DT.

3 miles is about it, although somehow I think that sending it up Sunset toward Silver Lake would work also.

The Grove trolley isn't really transit; it's almost pure tourist hook. I mean, it's like 200 yards long. But that's sort of the point: it grabs tourists who are at Farmer's Mkt and CBS and takes them into the retail and dining areas of The Grove. Same idea for grabbing conventioneers and taking them to Bway and the rest of DT.

So in a way, the trolley at The Grove (I'm actually at The Grove right now) is a prime example of how a streetcar should work.

sort of. maybe same distance between stops, but of course the distance a line goes would be longer. it's not for taking people all across LA. although it could, why would anyone take a streetcar from downtown to SM with 100 stops at street level when they can take a grade-separate (never in traffic) subway there going many times the speed and with only 20 stops.

the subway is for getting into different neighborhoods entirely because of what a location has to offer (like the beach or a business district). the streetcar is for things like grocery shopping or hitting a cafe several blocks up without wearing out your legs.

A great future route would be from the Expo terminus in SM down to Venice cbd.

An LA Streetcar is Desired to Help Create Jobs
In the 1920's LA's Red Car System was State of the Art for Mass Transport. Now a new Streetcar System for Downtown LA is Proposed Which Could Ease Traffic Congestion and Create Jobs
By CONAN NOLAN and JULIE BRAYTON
NBC Los Angeles
Updated 8:00 PM PST, Tue, Feb 8, 2011

In 1937 child actress Shirley Temple helped promote what was then the largest urban rail system in the world, the Pacific Electric Railway.

The railway was ripped out 50 years ago to make room for the automobile.

Now they want it back.

A street car system that would tie the civic center to Staples Center and LA Live would be a fiscal shot in the arm to the regional economy, according to a study released by the City of Los Angeles' Community Redevelopment Agency.

An LA Streetcar is Desired to Help Create Jobs

It would generate over a $1 billion in new business development, backers say, and over 9,000 new jobs.

"That's people who are coming downtown and wanting to develop properties along the streetcar route, to rehabilitate their properties that are along those lines, and that's a big deal. That translates into jobs, jobs, jobs," according to Dennis Allen, Executive Director, LA Streetcar Inc.

The project would be similar to systems in San Diego, San Francisco and most recently in Portland, Oregon.

It would cost an estimated $125 million, from private and public funding sources, through property assessments on downtown businesses.

"We're going to have to rely very heavily on private investment, because we don't know the future of our public investment opportunities," according to Councilwoman Jan Perry, LA City Council District 9.

The project is backed by trade unions and the Chamber of Commerce, which is hoping the streetcar would tie new hotel development to the convention center.

In a down economy the project has the appearance of a long shot, but supporters say a streetcar system is the next step in the not-so-gradual rebirth of downtown Los Angeles.



Read More: http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local-beat/An-LA-Streetcar-is-Desired-to-Help-Create-Jobs-115615309.html

I'm highly skeptical about the jobs and investment numbers but the streetcar still makes a lot of sense, given the length of DT and the need to keep visitors entertained. I don't see a good reason why the trolley wouldn't run from Exposition Park right through "101 Cap Park" to Chinatown. The key is to make sure that development and street improvements make this a nice ride the whole way.

A real urban model for this is what SF did on the F Line: a variety of historic styles from different cities. Beautiful cars and I am told it is a huge success with tourists and locals alike (although some complain that the Italian model is not as comfortable). It would be very cool to have an outdoor or window seat at a cafe on Bway, Olympic, etc., and watch the different cars go by. But first, they made sure that the Embarcadero and Market were rebuilt and fixed up to a consistent standard.

I'm highly skeptical about the jobs and investment numbers but the streetcar still makes a lot of sense, given the length of DT and the need to keep visitors entertained. I don't see a good reason why the trolley wouldn't run from Exposition Park right through "101 Cap Park" to Chinatown. The key is to make sure that development and street improvements make this a nice ride the whole way.



I don't think that we should run redundant lines around town. By the time this thing is up Expo would have been in operation for 5 years most likely so I wouldn't run it all the way to Expo Park. I'd like to see it run from City Hall area to LA Live connecting at Pico or Washington station on its south end and to the Civic Center station on its north. Perhaps another running from the Fashion District to Union Station hitting Little Tokyo.

I could live with that routing as well but I will pick nits.

If Bway and Spring are close enough to Expo, why build the trolley at all? If Bway and Spring are far enough from Expo to warrant building, then build it to where visitors and residents might want to go, which includes University Park.

Same sort of issue for Washington: why extend along Washington when the Blue Line already connects to Union Station?

I believe that it is too far from Bway/Spring to Expo or the Blue Line for many visitors to seek out the subway, figure it out and ride underground. I also believe that the trolley ITSELF attracts visitors or makes them stay longer. That's why I would look to make them unique or attractive (ala the SF F Line) and extend to Univ. Park.

Overall I think that a streetcar is a nifty idea but a decent bus line is far cheaper and already exists. For that oh-so boutique experience a streetcar works well and will work well to specific touristy destinations within neighborhoods or connecting one neighborhood to another. But for the heavy lifting busses working in conjunction with our rail lines, there is no better combination for LA. Streetcars are for very short distances of up to 3 miles max and specifically for urban revitalization, IMO.

I don`t understand why a lot of USA cities wanna construct short circular streetcar, without transit function, only like city fashion and attraction. Portland has minimal useful streetcar line with minimal standards. Streetcars (tramways) in European cities have function for 2-8km trips (1-5miles) in dense urban areas. Advantages are:
- Higher speed then any other surface system in downtown.
- Much higher comfort for passengers, especially standing passengers and people with luggage, and attracting car users to use transit.
- Better capacity then buses, ability to make up to 50m long transport units.
- Business activities in gravity zones of the streetcar lines.
- Using the streetcar like stage in subway or LRT construction.
- Transport in historic places, tourist attractions etc.

Some of the European tramways look like USA LRT`s. In any case, standard is all day interval <=10min, in better case <=7min, and lines not shorter then 6km (4 miles). As I know, only Seattle, Washington D.C. and Minneapolis wanna make serious streetcar networks. In Europe just every city with more then 200.000 people, and some with only 100.000 has, constructs or plans tramway.

I don`t understand why a lot of USA cities wanna construct short circular streetcar, without transit function, only like city fashion and attraction. Portland has minimal useful streetcar line with minimal standards. Streetcars (tramways) in European cities have function for 2-8km trips (1-5miles) in dense urban areas. Advantages are:
- Higher speed then any other surface system in downtown.
- Much higher comfort for passengers, especially standing passengers and people with luggage, and attracting car users to use transit.
- Better capacity then buses, ability to make up to 50m long transport units.
- Business activities in gravity zones of the streetcar lines.
- Using the streetcar like stage in subway or LRT construction.
- Transport in historic places, tourist attractions etc.

Some of the European tramways look like USA LRT`s. In any case, standard is all day interval <=10min, in better case <=7min, and lines not shorter then 6km (4 miles). As I know, only Seattle, Washington D.C. and Minneapolis wanna make serious streetcar networks. In Europe just every city with more then 200.000 people, and some with only 100.000 has, constructs or plans tramway.

Generally, I agree. But very large cities (Berlin, London, Paris, etc.) do not have surface rail in the city centers. Subways make sense due to speed and capacity and avoiding surface traffic.

Short "trolley" lines are intended to be attractive to visitors and not just for transport. But they are probably only good for a mile or two maximum.

Surface LRT is in the middle and sort of ambiguous. I agree it makes most sense for the 2-5 mile runs but it becomes too slow for longer runs UNLESS there is consistent density or expected on/off traffic along the whole line (this is my issue with Crenshaw or Foothill). I don't see this much in LA, except in the core area, where subway makes sense. For smaller dense cities (Amsterdam, Frankfurt) these 5 mile light rail lines make sense.

Streetcar Briefing Update – Nov. 3, 2011
October 26th, 2011 by Eric Metz

Please mark your calendars for an update meeting for the Restoration of Historic Streetcar Service in Downtown Los Angeles project.

When: Thursday, November 3, 2011

Time: 5:30 to 7 p.m.

Location: Caltrans, 100 S Main St, Los Angeles, CA

You can follow the link to view the Briefing Package (http://www.metro.net/projects_studies/historic-streetcar/images/Community_Update_Briefing_Package_2011_1103.pdf).

For details on the meeting and briefing packet, please visit www.metro.net/streetcar



http://www.lastreetcar.org/2011/10/26/streetcar-briefing-update-nov-3-2011/

I don`t understand why a lot of USA cities wanna construct short circular streetcar, without transit function, only like city fashion and attraction. Portland has minimal useful streetcar line with minimal standards.

I disagree about Portland. For one, Portland's streetcar is certainly not short, and it hits all the major districts in the city core where the MAX does not reach. I also think you have a skewed view about what a streetcar is. You think it should like a European Tramway, which is certainly not a definition of a streetcar in the US. A Tramway in Europe is sort of in between street car and light rail. If Portland want to build something like a Tram from Europe, they would just build another MAX light rail line. A streetcar provides smoother way to get around city cores that acts as hop on/hop off form of local transit. Again the MAX light rail is there for longer distance travel.

TransportPolitic (http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2011/11/16/los-angeles-streetcar-plans-too-duplicative-of-existing-services/)


Los Angeles’ Streetcar Plans: Too Duplicative of Existing Services?
November 16th, 2011

Los Angeles submitted an application for U.S. TIGER funds with the intention of building a downtown streetcar line. But the alignments proposed are very similar to those offered by existing rail and bus services — and each would operate in a one-way loop, a failed transit concept.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/LA-Streetcar-Conceptual.png

Los Angeles has big hopes for its downtown, and, like most of the country’s major cities, it has seen significant population growth in the inner core over the past ten years. Now, to extend this renaissance, the city — also like many others — is planning a streetcar line that would traverse the district from north to south. Last month, it applied for $37.5 million in U.S. Department of Transportation TIGER grant dollars, which it hopes to supplement with local and private funds to complete an initial route of between 3 and 5 one-way track miles at a cost of between $106 and $138 million.

Despite the fact that planning for the L.A. streetcar goes back for more than a decade thanks to the work of a public-private local advocacy group, the city will have plenty of competition in its effort to win federal funds. Requests for the third round of TIGER funding outnumbered actual funding available by 27 to 1. With so many projects up for consideration, anything funded by Washington ought to be valuable. But L.A.’s project could benefit from significant improvement.

The fundamental problem with the proposed streetcar is that its service pattern would overlap that of other transit lines either funded or in service today. Though there are several corridors under consideration (a final route alignment will be selected in February 2012), each would run within the general north-south corridor between Broadway to the east and Figueroa to the west and Pico to the south and Union Station to the north.

This broad corridor, it turns out, will be mostly duplicated by light rail once the Regional Connector — a more than $1 billion project — links the Blue and Expo lines south of downtown with the Gold Line north of it by 2020. The Silver Line, a bus rapid transit route that connects El Monte to South L.A., runs a very similar alignment. And literally dozens of local and rapid bus lines running with headways of 15 minutes or less throughout the day (shown in yellow on the map below) run similar routes. All of these lines are within half a mile or less of all of the proposed streetcar routes.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/LA-Downtown2.jpg

[...]

I would have just gone with an upgraded bus network like better wayfinding signage and new shelters. I do understand the economic development argument although I think that would happen anyway with the DTC coming online and the Purple Line extension.

So the question is: Is riding a stylish open-air trolley on sunny surface streets looking at skyscrapers, rehabed classic buildings, hip shops and cafes with attractive streetscape and lighting, and an active streetlife the same as shoving people into a hole, making them take escalators that don't work so they can wait on a platform with a few derelicts for a train and then ride in a tunnel to a different part of DT where they have lost their orientation and still seen nothing of LA? I'll bet Rick Caruso could answer that.

Does anyone really think that having a subway near LA Live which you can take to Union Station without ever actually seeing ANYTHING is going to be a big trip generator for Bway and Olvera St. Or that tourists are looking forward to taking public buses in the downtown areas of a large city? These are fine if you HAVE to go to these places; but non-starters in ENCOURAGING people to go to these places.

even though i disagree with your description of our subway 100% , i agree that we need the downtown connector. it serves a completely different purpose than the DC and our other rail lines.

even though i disagree with your description of our subway 100% , i agree that we need the downtown connector. it serves a completely different purpose than the DC and our other rail lines.

Admitedly a bit of exaggeration. The LA subways are in fact very nice. I'm not ciriticizing them; it's just a fact they are underground (in DT) and riding them creates no sense of what is between stations. I also would not recommend taking them from Vine to Highland in spite of their efficiency if there were attractive surface alternatives.

los angeles need a metromover like in miami

Why dont they extend the street car all the way up to Union Station, that way you can take the train to LA and travel through Bway and end at staples and LA Live. Mabey even extending it to USC? I tried to go to LA by train but i could no get to Bway in time because we would have to walk all the way to 3rd which would take like half an hour.

The Expo Line runs right past USC as well as LA Live.

Thank you soup or man

Why dont they extend the street car all the way up to Union Station, that way you can take the train to LA and travel through Bway and end at staples and LA Live. Mabey even extending it to USC? I tried to go to LA by train but i could no get to Bway in time because we would have to walk all the way to 3rd which would take like half an hour.

This is one of the basic questions: would a streetcar (aimed at tourists) be duplicative of a normal LRT aimed at locals and commuters? I argue that tourists would be attracted to explore DT via streetcar, but wouldn't do the same if the choice were a mostly underground subway line. Expo Park/SC to Union Station or Chinatown would seem to cover it.

NYC doesn't have streetcars and tourists still go there (underground even) and explore. I'm not against a streetcar but the benefits are a little overblown.

I like this thread...

LA Downtown News:

Streetcar Chugs Toward Environmental Review (http://www.ladowntownnews.com/news/streetcar-chugs-toward-environmental-review/article_06641aa8-6fb2-11e1-9ca6-001871e3ce6c.html)

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/ladowntownnews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/1d/61deb6e0-6fb2-11e1-8def-001871e3ce6c/4f63b90dcd64b.image.jpg

DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES - Early on, the Los Angeles Streetcar project had 65 route possibilities. Recently, that was whittled to one, and on Thursday, March 22, it will be presented to the Metro Board of Directors.

“This is a major step toward realizing the streetcar,” said 14th District City Councilman José Huizar, who launched the circulator proposal as part of his Bringing Back Broadway initiative. “I’m excited. This is a very important step.”

The route was one of seven finalists considered by Metro and presented to the public in a series of meetings last year. The report has already gone through Metro’s Planning and Programming Committee and the agency’s Construction Committee.

The City Council approved the route, which basically extends from Bunker Hill to South Park, on Jan. 31. Ironically, the Metro Board will not vote on the project. Instead, once it hears the presentation, streetcar proponents will be cleared to begin the environmental review process.

That is expected to take up to a year. The environmental study is necessary to get federal funding for the project.

The route, known as Alternative 7, would travel south on Broadway from First Street to 11th Street, turn west to Figueroa Street and go north to Seventh Street. It would then head east on Seventh to Hill Street and go north to First Street. It would turn west and then go south on Grand Avenue, terminating at Second Street, near MOCA and Eli Broad’s coming art museum.

[...]

Vote coming up for the trolley. The way it's structured, the voters effectively pay little and the business interests pay a lot (based on sq. footage), so it should pass.

Hopefully that Godawful green-blue-white abomination in the picture isn't the preferred model. Something with a little more retro look would be better for tourism and catching people's eyes.

Red or Yellow would represent our history with streetcars very well.

I watch NBC4 News Conference every Saturday, and today Jose Huizar(City Councilmember) who is the promoter of such project was asked about it. The host asked him that the first notion of the streetcar for LA residents is a reminiscent sentimental view of our old Red Cars, and gave references to the Trolleys in San Fran, New Orleans and other places; Huizar said that this is just the beginning of the project and that if the population wants something like the Red Cars they could put into the mix the possibility of redesigning them.

Time to write to Council member Jose Huizar. :)

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/ladowntownnews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/1d/61deb6e0-6fb2-11e1-8def-001871e3ce6c/4f63b90dcd64b.image.jpg

I don't have a specific look in mind, but the attached SF site has a nice collection of historic looks (3 from LA). The F Line actually uses a variety of classic look cars and they are real eye-catchers when they go by. Many are the same basic type but with different paint jobs for the city they came from; some are a little too authentic (not that comfortable or convenient).

http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/
http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/live.html

Not sure if these are workable DT, but they're interesting to look at any way.

I think I'm safe in saying that this is what we visualize and want, a revamped Red Car.

http://la.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/8_13_08_Streetcar.jpg

Maybe not as large as the original, but the same style.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XRrU8-3NmiY/TAhxfofAeCI/AAAAAAAABYw/vsq-Gh664-Q/s1600/pacific+electric+car.jpg


If they kept Angels Flight original, why not this part of our heritage. I absolutely hate the proposed lime-green-light blue-white ice shaver!

Like I said, time to write our beloved city councilman Jose Huizar!

Whatever....hope it works out. Throw money into amazing streetscapes. Hell, even put the present buses in their own lanes. I'm not sold on this one-way streetcar idea. I'm not sold on streetcars period They're slow as sin. Anyway, let's keep this discussion on what this streetcar idea primarily wants to accomplish....and that is to gentrify. Yes, I know that the "G" word is now a dirty word but that's what this is all about. So don't even mention mobility because I can't think of any other place in LA with as much mobility as Downtown LA.

http://blogdowntown.com/2012/11/7064-proposed-dtla-streetcar-may-be-new-but-its

sounds like we will probably get our red cars instead of the original ugly design

:cheers:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2673008/SC_Webimages/streetcarmap3.jpg



Downtown L.A. streetcar measure appears headed for victory
Los Angeles Times
December 3, 2012 | 9:10 pm

A special measure to bring back the downtown Los Angeles streetcar appeared to win approval Monday with more than 70% of votes in favor, city officials announced.

Out of 2,065 ballots counted, 1,508 favored the proposal to create an assessment district to help finance the $125-million project, said Holly Wolcott, executive officer of the city clerk's office.

The vote tally is not final because there are still 110 outstanding ballots, she added, but that total is not enough to swing the race.

Backers of the streetcar have emphasized the potential economic effects it could bring to downtown, especially along Broadway, where the city is working to revive old movie palaces and office buildings.

"This is a major step forward for downtown, and it really shows the overall support for job growth and urban living," said Paul Habibi, a UCLA professor who served as an advisor to the campaign. "The turnout was fantastic."

With public financing now in place from the assessment district, Habibi said, officials will apply for federal grants to fund the rest of the construction costs. They must also conduct an environmental impact review.

The proposed route of the streetcar covers 10 blocks along Broadway before veering over to L.A. Live and then through the financial district. It is scheduled to open in 2015.



Read More: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/12/los-angeles-streetcar-measure-heads-toward-victory.html

http://blogdowntown.com/2012/11/7064-proposed-dtla-streetcar-may-be-new-but-its

sounds like we will probably get our red cars instead of the original ugly design

:cheers:

Did you read this?


If it does, the end result will be a modern incarnation of the historic streetcar. Instead of trying to recreate the old look, Tangri said they're embracing modern developments to create a more streamlined, accessible design.


:(

http://blogdowntown.com/2012/11/7064-proposed-dtla-streetcar-may-be-new-but-its

sounds like we will probably get our red cars instead of the original ugly design

:cheers:

Funny how that streetcar is still completely full even up to the last day. "Let the market decide" yeah. But what about when the market doesn't play fair? We learned about the Sherman Act back in elementary school. I guess that's ok too. It's the Market (read: GOD). People who follow this philosophy are seriously brain injured.

Did you read this?


If it does, the end result will be a modern incarnation of the historic streetcar. Instead of trying to recreate the old look, Tangri said they're embracing modern developments to create a more streamlined, accessible design.


:(

This is good news. LA is progressing as a city and we need to keep doing so. We shouldn't build a streetcar and use ye old tyme streetcars. It'll be as bad as those trolley looking bus things. Give me a modern streetcar any day. I'd be fine with the one that is rendered already.

http://www.urbanone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/20110208__streetcar_rendering2.jpg

And I think this video needs to be posted again.

h5C65fZLwg8

I agree Soup, it was just an option we have, or should have because we have a past (and a very successful one at that) with street cars.

The idea wasn't to bring back the exact rickety old ones, but to build modern ones that look like the old Red Cars. Why? Because they become even more successful, tourist attractions etc. San Francisco, New Orleans are known for theirs. Having street cars is a plus (many cities do and they're, whatever), reviving the look of the "old ones" is a PLUS PLUS.

San Francisco and New Orleans are totally different because their streetcar systems are actually OLD. The St. Charles Ave streetcar has been in operation since 1835.

Originally Posted by Jose Huizar

The City Council voted today to support 30 years of operational costs to support our efforts to bring the beloved streetcar back Downtown. Downtown voters approved local funding, and next week I’ll be going to Washington D.C. to rally support for the federal dollars we need to be riding the streetcar by 2016, create 9,000 jobs and bring $1 billion in economic development to L.A.!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200180151777965&set=a.1140614687010.21334.1576732670&type=1

From Curbed:

http://la.curbed.com/uploads/Downtownstreetcar.rendering.jpg

The Downtown streetcar is getting its finances all lined up: the City Council approved an operational plan today that commits up to $352 million of Measure R transportation tax money over 30 years to cover the operation and maintenance of the system. Which means? The streetcar is happening, people! The vote also instructed the Department of Transportation and Bureau of Engineering to work with LA Streetcar Inc. and Councilmember Jose Huizar's office (whose district the streetcar primarily runs through) to report back with a project management plan in 30 days. The two city departments were also instructed to look into the feasibility of a wireless streetcar, like the one in Bordeaux, France.

The streetcar will be a four-mile fixed rail line that will run on city streets in a loop from the Civic Center to the Convention Center, running down Broadway through the Historic Core before heading into the Fashion District and South Park, and hitting the Financial District on the way back--it'll travel on Broadway, Eleventh, Figueroa, Seventh, and Hill. Half the cash for construction of the streetcar will come from the local tax Downtown voters approved in 2012, and today's vote also authorized LADOT and Metro to start applying to federal programs for the other half. The environmental review is currently underway, and the project still needs to be fully designed and engineered. If all goes according to plan, construction could start in late 2014 and the streetcar could be operational by 2016.

San Francisco and New Orleans are totally different because their streetcar systems are actually OLD. The St. Charles Ave streetcar has been in operation since 1835.

LA has glorious streetcar history and is is well known. So bringing back vintage-style streetcars would be appropriate in this case.

they should change the color scheme on the streetcars, and try to make them wireless

LA has glorious streetcar history and is is well known. So bringing back vintage-style streetcars would be appropriate in this case.

It would certainly be a nice throwback, but I don't think it would be legal due to ADA standards.

Good point!

There must be some flexibility because SF uses vintage trains from lines all over the world (including LA).

http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/

There must be some flexibility because SF uses vintage trains from lines all over the world (including LA).

http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/

I believe that streetcar/subway lines which were in use prior to the ADA are granted exceptions from the rules. For example, most of the New York subway stations don't provide elevator access.

LA has glorious streetcar history and is is well known. So bringing back vintage-style streetcars would be appropriate in this case.

Unfortunately, outside of SoCal, there aren't that many people that know of our once extensive and glorious streetcar history. When I traveled to Toronto recently, people were kinda shocked when I told them that LA used to have one of the largest streetcar systems in the world, even bigger than Toronto's current streetcar system. One older lady was even being cynical about it by saying ,"I bet there used to unicorns there too eh?". Lol

Anyway, the vintage cars would be nice for obvious nostalgic reasons and to help boost tourism in the central core, but I think a modern fleet would much better serve both visitors and DTLA's growing population. We need something more efficient, rather than just looking pretty (or even gimmicky). Toronto's older streetcars are now being replaced with more efficient modern cars.

I can't wait for this baby to get rolling through downtown LA sooner, rather than later! My dream is that we have a streetcar system one day that will rival Toronto's current system. We had the largest interurban system at one time, so why not again? At least there should be one in Hollywood, Santa Monica, and Pasadena.

Unfortunately, outside of SoCal, there aren't that many people that know of our once extensive and glorious streetcar history. When I traveled to Toronto recently, people were kinda shocked when I told them that LA used to have one of the largest streetcar systems in the world, even bigger than Toronto's current streetcar system. One older lady was even being cynical about it by saying ,"I bet there used to unicorns there too eh?". Lol

Anyway, the vintage cars would be nice for obvious nostalgic reasons and to help boost tourism in the central core, but I think a modern fleet would much better serve both visitors and DTLA's growing population. We need something more efficient, rather than just looking pretty (or even gimmicky). Toronto's older streetcars are now being replaced with more efficient modern cars.

I can't wait for this baby to get rolling through downtown LA sooner, rather than later! My dream is that we have a streetcar system one day that will rival Toronto's current system. We had the largest interurban system at one time, so why not again? At least there should be one in Hollywood, Santa Monica, and Pasadena.

In general, really large cities have gotten rid of surface rail. NY, Paris, London and many others tore theirs out 100 years ago. Berlin took theirs out in the West and put everything underground in the middle of the city. The poorer East still has some. Different story when you get to the suburbs and space is plentiful.

Surface rail in DT, Hollywood, SaMo, etc., would not be good as part of a general plan (too slow, takes space on roads). Trolleys that run for a mile or two for tourists or occasional jaunts are OK. The DT trolley will be extend for about 2 miles altogether (roughly South Park to Bunker Hill).

Agreed. Streetcars are fine but let's keep them in perspective. Streetcars can't do anything more than a bus can already do. What the addition of streetcars are for in truth is economic development and tourist draws. A circulator bus could easily have been routed where the new DT streetcar will run and would have been loads cheaper. So I get it. There's no argument from me on this. A loop around Hollywood would be cool. Hollywood, down La Brea, back around Melrose or Beverley, and up Vermont. Makes loads of sense. But it's not anything that a bus couldn't do. What really should be top priority is a center lane BRT network throughout the city. Tourists would really appreciate that as well as residents.

Agreed. Streetcars are fine but let's keep them in perspective. Streetcars can't do anything more than a bus can already do. What the addition of streetcars are for in truth is economic development and tourist draws. A circulator bus could easily have been routed where the new DT streetcar will run and would have been loads cheaper. So I get it. There's no argument from me on this. A loop around Hollywood would be cool. Hollywood, down La Brea, back around Melrose or Beverley, and up Vermont. Makes loads of sense. But it's not anything that a bus couldn't do. What really should be top priority is a center lane BRT network throughout the city. Tourists would really appreciate that as well as residents.

Not really.

Buses have always had a stigma attached to them: big, old, smelly, and full of homeless/weird people. No one wants to ride a bus any longer than they have to. They also do little in the way of encouraging development. Have you ever seen a giant mixed use project spring up near a single bus station? Not really.

A modern street car is exactly that: modern. Look at Tucson, Arizona as a prime example of what a modern streetcar can do. I lived there for 2 years (2008-2010). Not much in the way of development. Fast forward 3 years later, a lot of projects geared towards creating a more urban downtown (very hard in Arizona) have all sprung up and that's all resulting from the street car.

http://www.tucsonstreetcar.com/images/full-route.jpg

Not really.

Buses have always had a stigma attached to them: big, old, smelly, and full of homeless/weird people. No one wants to ride a bus any longer than they have to. They also do little in the way of encouraging development. Have you ever seen a giant mixed use project spring up near a single bus station? Not really.

A modern street car is exactly that: modern. Look at Tucson, Arizona as a prime example of what a modern streetcar can do. I lived there for 2 years (2008-2010). Not much in the way of development. Fast forward 3 years later, a lot of projects geared towards creating a more urban downtown (very hard in Arizona) have all sprung up and that's all resulting from the street car.

I agree, Soups!

It's true that a bus/BRT can do alot of the same things a streetcar can, but the clear advantage thats streetcars has over a bus (even if it's just a psychological one), is it's ability to spur development. There's something about the more "permanent" nature of streetcars that encourages development and attracts riders (btw the ones in Toronto are heavily used).

Buses might be a little more flexible in that they can reroute at the drop of a dime, but what's ironic is that, it's that very same reason many people fear taking buses (that nagging uncertainty factor). Streetcar tracks are salient and communicate to the rider: "Hey, we're HERE and we're not going ANYWHERE!"; "If you get lost in an unfamiliar neighborhood? Just get right back on!" Bus service can sometimes be a hit/miss even in cities better known for its transit cultures (SF, NYC, Washington DC, Toronto,etc.) I don't necessarily advocate for an extensive system, but rather well-maintained localzed systems. They might not be the greatest by themselves, but implemented with other modes of transit, they can be quite amazing!

Streetcars will encourage people to use transit more. IMO, Bike Lanes also have that same multiplier effect, when you see that infrastructure put in place? It tends to encourage more usage, and before you know it?...what were once recreational/weekend riders, now become more permanent riders. Instead of being just onlookers, they see the value of it and become a participant of that culture. And over time, a paradigm shift emerges in how one views the world around himself/herself..from how one chooses to live to how one decides to travel and uses the resources available him/her.

Not really.

Buses have always had a stigma attached to them: big, old, smelly, and full of homeless/weird people.

Yep, not to mention noisy.



Buses might be a little more flexible in that they can reroute at the drop of a dime, but what's ironic is that, it's that very same reason many people fear taking buses (that nagging uncertainty factor). Streetcar tracks are salient and communicate to the rider: "Hey, we're HERE and we're not going ANYWHERE!"; "If you get lost in an unfamiliar neighborhood? Just get right back on!"



Very true. When I was in Portland last year, I took the streetcar to South Waterfront. I wasn't very familiar with the area, but to leave I just followed the tracks, found the nearest stop and back to downtown I go. It's just easier to use, and no waiting in line for people to pay the farebox.

Not really.

Buses have always had a stigma attached to them: big, old, smelly, and full of homeless/weird people. No one wants to ride a bus any longer than they have to.

Who holds this castigated view of buses? Who are they? What is their demographic? Where do they live? Why do they hold this prejudice? Are our brand new fleet of buses big, old, smelly and full of homeless/weird people? I ride the bus all the time, do these people think that I'm homeless and weird? Should I care? And if I should, why should I? Should the public spend millions just to change the perception of those people? If so, why? Why is their view so important?

I agree, Soups!

It's true that a bus/BRT can do alot of the same things a streetcar can, but the clear advantage thats streetcars has over a bus (even if it's just a psychological one), is it's ability to spur development. There's something about the more "permanent" nature of streetcars that encourages development and attracts riders (btw the ones in Toronto are heavily used).

Buses might be a little more flexible in that they can reroute at the drop of a dime, but what's ironic is that, it's that very same reason many people fear taking buses (that nagging uncertainty factor). Streetcar tracks are salient and communicate to the rider: "Hey, we're HERE and we're not going ANYWHERE!"; "If you get lost in an unfamiliar neighborhood? Just get right back on!" Bus service can sometimes be a hit/miss even in cities better known for its transit cultures (SF, NYC, Washington DC, Toronto,etc.) I don't necessarily advocate for an extensive system, but rather well-maintained localzed systems. They might not be the greatest by themselves, but implemented with other modes of transit, they can be quite amazing!

Streetcars will encourage people to use transit more. IMO, Bike Lanes also have that same multiplier effect, when you see that infrastructure put in place? It tends to encourage more usage, and before you know it?...what were once recreational/weekend riders, now become more permanent riders. Instead of being just onlookers, they see the value of it and become a participant of that culture. And over time, a paradigm shift emerges in how one views the world around himself/herself..from how one chooses to live to how one decides to travel and uses the resources available him/her.
I'll quote myself: "What the addition of streetcars are for in truth is economic development and tourist draws." So I said in one sentence the same thing that you just took a whole paragraph to say before you said it.

If streetcars are so permanent why aren't they still around? We have a history of streetcar lines being ripped up and covered over. It's a complete lie to suggest that streetcars hold some sort of permanence in the city that is a prime example of streetcar desistance.
If you get lost in a neighborhood find a fucking map. This hardly applies to LA known for its amazing grid pattern especially in places that tourists will end up. Major boulevards about a mile apart. Buses on all major boulevards. Simply walk to a boulevard wait for a bus. This is the scenario in most places in central LA and even South and the Valley. Not rocket science.

Yep, not to mention noisy.



Very true. When I was in Portland last year, I took the streetcar to South Waterfront. I wasn't very familiar with the area, but to leave I just followed the tracks, found the nearest stop and back to downtown I go. It's just easier to use, and no waiting in line for people to pay the farebox.

Oh the horror! Buses can be quieted and like the Orange Line have off board fare pay systems to lessen dwell time. Again, not rocket science.

As I said before, streetcars I get it. But let's not lull ourselves into believing that from a mobility standpoint they are superior to buses. From a perception standpoint in this day and age, perhaps. But that is coming from decades of a certain kind of person leaving the city and associating cities with buses, "those people" and everything that person feels superior to. Specifically, if you don't understand why some people view buses as dirty or "those people" ride them then you're only playing into and are supportive of the stereotypes and even worse the isms that these people feel that they have the privilege to cast onto others at will without recourse or a challenge. In other words, you're just another stupid pawn applying the grease to a shitty and structurally oppressive system.

http://www.streets.mn/2013/03/12/six-less-obvious-benefits-to-streetcars/

Who holds this castigated view of buses? Who are they? What is their demographic? Where do they live? Why do they hold this prejudice? Are our brand new fleet of buses big, old, smelly and full of homeless/weird people? I ride the bus all the time, do these people think that I'm homeless and weird? Should I care? And if I should, why should I? Should the public spend millions just to change the perception of those people? If so, why? Why is their view so important?

Therein lies the reason you don't see it. I ride the bus too and people look at me funny for choosing that over a car. There are people with outdated and/or pre-conceived notions about riding a bus. Between bus and rail (of any sort), I personally will take whatever is more convenient. Although I will admit, given equal options I do tend to lean toward rail.

As for the replacement of streetcars to buses in the latter half of the 20th century, the whole corporate collusion aside, buses were marketed or perceived to be more modern than streetcars. Hence the rush to embrace the "new" technology. A generation or two later removed from the last public incarnation, streetcars have had a chance to evolve and now seem like "new" technology on a street-running basis. It seems like a technological pendulum swinging back and forth with surface transit.

Street cars in DTLA are almost entirely to promote tourism and exploration downtown. DTLA isn't all that big (and the streets normal people would actually visit are few), so it's not for commuters.

For transit, we'll need to rely on the future of our subways or perhaps the fabled monorail system that was proposed for LA decades back during the guilded ages. We just have too many stop lights for transit to shine unless it possesses separated lanes (those monorails are sounding like a good idea these days ala Vancouver's SkyTrain)

http://www.streets.mn/2013/03/12/six-less-obvious-benefits-to-streetcars/

The first quoted paragraph from your article:
They may be great as tourist attractions or “tourist” transportation, but if we’re making lines primarily for transit use, I’m worried. Especially if that line we’re looking at is one that many residents would use. In order for transit to be useful, it needs to value people’s time, and streetcars as they’re normally set up do not do that as well as other modes available to us (LRT, aBRT, dedicated lanes, etc.)

From the author of the blog. This revealed how thin this blogger has scratched the surface of urban and regional mobility and planning:
But somehow, for some reason, people like them. They bestow economic growth like faerie dust wherever they’re constructed (except Tampa). It’s a mystery, but it works… I guess.

Basically, he's a dumb ass. In LA we have rail lines that a certain demographic won't ride because of their irrational fear of others. The Blue Line comes quickly to mind. The BL is rail. Mostly at-grade but on its own ROW and is the most rode single line in the country. It was our first rail line and is the workhorse of the system, having paid for itself many times over by now. If streetcars were really about mobility the first places they should be installed would be offshoots of the Blue Line. Compton, Watts, Gardena, north Long Beach etc. where these riders could seamlessly transfer from one rail line onto another streetcar rail line and where bus service is not as strong as in Central LA. Streetcars should be part of a larger existing system, shooting off a line that is already well used. This would also have another effect which is economic development, something that these neighborhoods and small municipalities desperately need.

Therein lies the reason you don't see it. I ride the bus too and people look at me funny for choosing that over a car. There are people with outdated and/or pre-conceived notions about riding a bus. Between bus and rail (of any sort), I personally will take whatever is more convenient. Although I will admit, given equal options I do tend to lean toward rail.

As for the replacement of streetcars to buses in the latter half of the 20th century, the whole corporate collusion aside, buses were marketed or perceived to be more modern than streetcars. Hence the rush to embrace the "new" technology. A generation or two later removed from the last public incarnation, streetcars have had a chance to evolve and now seem like "new" technology on a street-running basis. It seems like a technological pendulum swinging back and forth with surface transit.

Article after article like this one: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_162-46240131/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-really-happened/
examines the demise of the streetcar in the US and LA to be specific. The reason for the demise of the streetcar is multifaceted, some of it practical other parts ugly. Buses had air-conditioning. Streetcars were in mixed traffic as buses are today and would get stuck. Streetcars were perceived by the grandparents of the people today who equally have a prejudice against buses and the people on them, as dirty, slow and the oh-so common statement "those people" ride them and we all know who "those people" are and what that means.

As an urban planner I cannot be moved by the whims of the privileged and elite who are filled to the brim with the disease of prejudice, racism and classism. My job is to be the buffer as much as I can between the public sector and the private. Guiding and many times abetting the folks who want to make a profit in the private sector away from encroaching upon the rights and livability of the public. My chief concern though as a planner will always be those without voices, that's another big part of my job. "Those people" are the people that need to be protected the most from the money interests and those that ran away and (were allowed to run away) to the suburbs where the largest economic transfer in the history of this country happened when money was divested away from the inner cities out into the hinterlands ironically on publicly subsidized highways. This is a result of structural racism, classism and outright oppression.

I'm offended and highly so that I'm told that I should tap dance and provide another form of mobility for those who now are returning back to the city in the form of a streetcar so that they will feel comfortable. In other words, I'm to push for some sort of segregated transit option so that they won't have to be around the homeless, the derelicts or "those people" and as is the course always on the public's dime! You are seriously trippin! I mean, can't those people ride the streetcar too? Eradicate parking minimums. Multi-mode all streets. Everyone onto buses and trains together not this streetcar segregation or stay in your stupid car and pay the true cost of driving. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not incubating and harboring this sort of societal disease where some people can't stand to be around others. Don't move back to cities then! That's why your parents moved out in the first place. Why come back dragging all of your stinking sicknesses that you think you've cured but have not even begun a regimen for? Transit is the great equalizer. If you don't want to be equal and thought of as just a another piece of a much larger human family, go some fucking where else. We don't want you here!

Street cars in DTLA are almost entirely to promote tourism and exploration downtown. DTLA isn't all that big (and the streets normal people would actually visit are few), so it's not for commuters.


Thank you. The streetcars downtown will be an economic generator or a failure. No one thinks that this is a real solution for mobility when the thing is making a uni-directional loop. As I said, if we really are serious about streetcars as both mobility options and economic drivers, they should off shoot from our most rode LRT and HRT lines. The Blue Line has many access points. Expo around Western and Vermont would be another place. Hollywood down Highland or La Brea to the Grove would be quite awesome. Down Colorado off the Gold Line in Pasadena would be a sure winner.

Eradicate parking minimums.

You know what we should have - hygiene minimums!
Especially in the summer, or I ain't ridin'!

And there should be sensors that pick up on this
so if anyone is deemed unsavory by the machine
then an ejector seat propels them back out onto
the street from hence they came.

It's science.

Klams, you're an urban planner?
Who do you work for?
You can pass along my suggestions!
You can be the vessel through which
I make my wonders!

Thank you. The streetcars downtown will be an economic generator or a failure. No one thinks that this is a real solution for mobility when the thing is making a uni-directional loop. As I said, if we really are serious about streetcars as both mobility options and economic drivers, they should off shoot from our most rode LRT and HRT lines. The Blue Line has many access points. Expo around Western and Vermont would be another place. Hollywood down Highland or La Brea to the Grove would be quite awesome. Down Colorado off the Gold Line in Pasadena would be a sure winner.

Clearly agree on the Bway Trolley. But I think buses are adequate on most of your proposals. The LA core should have all rail underground since it will be getting much denser over time. Trolleys should be mostly for tourists (SaMo-Venice, Hollywood, DT, Pasadena). Even Crenshaw will go underground north of Exposition, which is as it should be.

You know what we should have - hygiene minimums!
Especially in the summer, or I ain't ridin'!

And there should be sensors that pick up on this
so if anyone is deemed unsavory by the machine
then an ejector seat propels them back out onto
the street from hence they came.

It's science.

Klams, you're an urban planner?
Who do you work for?
You can pass along my suggestions!
You can be the vessel through which
I make my wonders!
Um...future tense.

Future Tense "should" be the name of a
forward thinking company, but I could not
find such a company therefore .....
I must consider you a poseur.

Your heart's in the right place though :)

Lol! Not a poseur as long as I'm still looking.