OK. we have heard over and over again of this massive project ....on its way towards modernity, Angola has to destroy all those gruesome shacks and give people decent and heavily subsidized housing. SHOW PICS!!!! What is happening on the ground and not just on paper??

OK. we have heard over and over again of this massive project ....on its way towards modernity, Angola has to destroy all those gruesome shacks and give people decent and heavily subsidized housing. SHOW PICS!!!! What is happening on the ground and not just on paper??

wrong forum matt

wrong forum matt

and why? it´s about new housing projects!

and why? it´s about new housing projects!

sounds like a discussion on housing to me matt not an actual entity:bash:

sounds like a discussion on housing to me matt not an actual entity:bash:

It´s about housing projects:bash: Any news on that?

ok matt herehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykOT4N1LMsY the link to the clearance but we do already have a post for zango and the other mass housing projects

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykOT4N1LMsY

ok matt herehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykOT4N1LMsY the link to the clearance but we do already have a post for zango and the other mass housing projects

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykOT4N1LMsY

Slum clearance is of utmost importance...again I prefer the Chinese way, not much talkie talkie but done quickly and efficiently! people shouldn´t live like pigs.:bash:

Slum clearance is of utmost importance...again I prefer the Chinese way, not much talkie talkie but done quickly and efficiently! people shouldn´t live like pigs.:bash:

I also like the Chinise way Matt, but dont forget our picture.
We are in Africa, in Angola, and people have diferent perspectives of doing politics. Governments and Parties prefere to peserve votes and do things slowly than do things with rush and without a good future perspective.
Probably most of the clearance we will see later on in the year 2012, an election year. So until there just chill up and take a nice drink.
In China is different because every thing is done by the power of the government. If you do this in Angola, NGOs of all kind will make bad publicitie of the Government, will call human rights associations, etc. They prefer people living in bad housing instead giving support to development programs. Than when a big rain kill a lot of people in slums they say the government is corrupt because dont invest in better housing for is people. Its complicate. Lets hope in the future people understand whats better for them.:cheers:

Well Hammelkar and Matt, I think it's a bit more complicated than that...

First of all, Angola has had a civil war from the 1960's until 2002. Do you know how many people that displaces?! Internal refugees? Please guys, stop looking at things just from a shiny skyscraper perspective and more from a practical, sensible point of view. Angola had no structure of urban planning whatsoever. As a result, millions of people emigrated to the city and built houses wherever they could. When you are running away from a WAR, whether or not your house looks cool and whether or not it was built with government authorization or in its designated space, etc etc, is the farthest thing in your mind. Luanda's musseque problem is a consequence of poverty and war.

So, before the government razes people's houses and livelihoods to the ground in order to build another shopping mall (i'm not a big fan of american-style shopping malls...can you tell? :lol:) it has to first provide people with adequate alternatives, or else you'll suddenly dump thousands and thousands of people into the streets with no housing. Just think about that. Before you think about aesthetics and niceties, think about people's livelihood!

Hammelkar as you know, the government razed a bunch of (illegal) houses in Lubango during the rainy season to make way for some development space for the Railway. So thousands of people were left homeless during the rainy season, including women and children. The government provided them with inadequate and not nearly enough tents. It's not just the "NGOs" and "human rights organizations" that were angry, it was ordinary angolans. The condemnation of that was rampant in all sectors of the angolan civil society. True, the housing the people built was illegal, but the government didn't deal with it the right way. After all, the people didnt ask for war.

So, in Luanda's case, before they raze people's houses to the ground, and many other historical edifices and livelihoods as the government is currently doing to the great chagrin of the people, they need first to ATTRACT people to LEAVE Luanda's city center. It is SEVERELY CONGESTED. Talatona was an excellent start, as is Panguila. They need to move the administrative and business center of the capital southwards and northwards. Instead they keep cramming skyscrapers in the middle of the city and the traffic jst keeps getting worse and worse. Luanda is a big province! Why cram everything in its center? It's a matter of public policy.

As you can see, it takes time to change people's mentality, build them decent housing, move them out of the city center. It's a lot of logistics and not just "talkie talkie". China is able to do it because they have a lot more resources and manpower than Angola. And they didnt have a ridiculous civil war. So please, give us time to do our work. Things like this take time and a lot of logistics...a million people live in Sambizanga alone. And don't compare realities that are incomparable. Notice that the government razed the Roque de Santeiro market and now we have a lot more street vendors on our roads. Things need to be done right and be well thought out...we aren't in a race guys!

Cheers :cheers:

Well Hammelkar and Matt, I think it's a bit more complicated than that...




As you can see, it takes time to change people's mentality, build them decent housing, move them out of the city center. It's a lot of logistics and not just "talkie talkie". China is able to do it because they have a lot more resources and manpower than Angola. And they didnt have a ridiculous civil war. So please, give us time to do our work. Things like this take time and a lot of logistics...a million people live in Sambizanga alone. And don't compare realities that are incomparable. Notice that the government razed the Roque de Santeiro market and now we have a lot more street vendors on our roads. Things need to be done right and be well thought out...we aren't in a race guys!

Cheers :cheers:

ok although this is the wrong forum but i am drawn. blacklion has truth. the Luanda city plan is pushing the boundaries outwards, there will be new active parts of the city soon. where? viana, zango, Luanda sul, etc. the plane of Luanda will be full. Angolans have known to hug together through the war by the coast. now they are learn freedom and the city will spread with the start of the trains and new townships and factories. a story i heard was that the government gave a population a new high rise block with hot and cold running water, electricity and cookers and fridge for the first time in 30 years, away from their poverty. they went to the new place but came back to the government to say that that there was no garden though. haa haa, this is the first step to modernity, they will learn angola. this was as rural china just yesterday and look today. Luanda will be a great city of the time. blacklion is right, to build is slower then to destroy. :)

Well Hammelkar and Matt, I think it's a bit more complicated than that...

First of all, Angola has had a civil war from the 1960's until 2002. Do you know how many people that displaces?! Internal refugees? Please guys, stop looking at things just from a shiny skyscraper perspective and more from a practical, sensible point of view. Angola had no structure of urban planning whatsoever. As a result, millions of people emigrated to the city and built houses wherever they could. When you are running away from a WAR, whether or not your house looks cool and whether or not it was built with government authorization or in its designated space, etc etc, is the farthest thing in your mind. Luanda's musseque problem is a consequence of poverty and war.

So, before the government razes people's houses and livelihoods to the ground in order to build another shopping mall (i'm not a big fan of american-style shopping malls...can you tell? :lol:) it has to first provide people with adequate alternatives, or else you'll suddenly dump thousands and thousands of people into the streets with no housing. Just think about that. Before you think about aesthetics and niceties, think about people's livelihood!

Hammelkar as you know, the government razed a bunch of (illegal) houses in Lubango during the rainy season to make way for some development space for the Railway. So thousands of people were left homeless during the rainy season, including women and children. The government provided them with inadequate and not nearly enough tents. It's not just the "NGOs" and "human rights organizations" that were angry, it was ordinary angolans. The condemnation of that was rampant in all sectors of the angolan civil society. True, the housing the people built was illegal, but the government didn't deal with it the right way. After all, the people didnt ask for war.

So, in Luanda's case, before they raze people's houses to the ground, and many other historical edifices and livelihoods as the government is currently doing to the great chagrin of the people, they need first to ATTRACT people to LEAVE Luanda's city center. It is SEVERELY CONGESTED. Talatona was an excellent start, as is Panguila. They need to move the administrative and business center of the capital southwards and northwards. Instead they keep cramming skyscrapers in the middle of the city and the traffic jst keeps getting worse and worse. Luanda is a big province! Why cram everything in its center? It's a matter of public policy.

As you can see, it takes time to change people's mentality, build them decent housing, move them out of the city center. It's a lot of logistics and not just "talkie talkie". China is able to do it because they have a lot more resources and manpower than Angola. And they didnt have a ridiculous civil war. So please, give us time to do our work. Things like this take time and a lot of logistics...a million people live in Sambizanga alone. And don't compare realities that are incomparable. Notice that the government razed the Roque de Santeiro market and now we have a lot more street vendors on our roads. Things need to be done right and be well thought out...we aren't in a race guys!

Cheers :cheers:

:applause:

They REALLY should move the capital to Huambo in a few years. But the government elite would never want to leave Luanda.

I also like the Chinise way Matt, but dont forget our picture.
We are in Africa, in Angola, and people have diferent perspectives of doing politics. Governments and Parties prefere to peserve votes and do things slowly than do things with rush and without a good future perspective.
Probably most of the clearance we will see later on in the year 2012, an election year. So until there just chill up and take a nice drink.
In China is different because every thing is done by the power of the government. If you do this in Angola, NGOs of all kind will make bad publicitie of the Government, will call human rights associations, etc. They prefer people living in bad housing instead giving support to development programs. Than when a big rain kill a lot of people in slums they say the government is corrupt because dont invest in better housing for is people. Its complicate. Lets hope in the future people understand whats better for them.:cheers:

Hopefully you are right:)

but then TELL ME ONE THING why has Asia (especially Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and to large parts Malaysia ) managed to knock down those hiedous slums??? PEOPLE ARE NOT FOND OF LIVING IN SLUMS BEING SURROUNDED BY STAGNANT WATEr; RUBBISH; SHIT; FILTH:::IT IS UTTER HELL!!!!!!! people don´t deserve to live like pigs...especially when countries are oil rich like Nigeria or Angola. IT IS A SHAME WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING???? Enriching switerzerland again??? People need proper housing URGENTLY there is absolutely no excuse and no debate it is a human right, period.

Blacklion,


I do understand what you are saying but you are still looking for excuses far too much here and there.

Ask the people if they are happy to live in slums! I don´t know if you are aware of what it means to live in a slum while you sit cozily somehwere in the USA with all the amenities that other people in the world and in Africa in particular should get as well.

It is certainly not about shopping malls, new roads or glitzy skyscrapers. we are talking of basic human rights in here - clean water, decent housing, electricity!!

and wait a minute as for the ressources? around $300 billion US dollars were stolen by Nigerian elite since the discovery of oil. Do you know how many decent houses for the poor and needy could have been built with that money? Abject poverty shouldn´t exist in Nigeria nowadays.

...and it should neither be the case for Angola...I read that there are still 75% of the population without adequate housing....civil war or not, numbers have to be cut back to at least 35% in the next 10-15 years, this has to be done quickly and this is not far-fetched but should be manageable!

Angola has the FINANCIAL MEANS to do that (it is not Burundi, benin, Togo etc.)....and certainly the people would be overjoyed to own their own houses...this would instill the ordinary citizen with national pride.

Housing should be subsidized so that it is affordable for the masses.

Quando maior o Poder, maior a responsabilidade... Angola e Nigeria são apenas jovens promesas cheias de teorias, mas nunca serão estrelas. :bash:

:hahaha: tamos fdd's :( :badnews:

:hahaha: tamos fdd's :( :badnews:
:)

Hopefully you are right:)

but then TELL ME ONE THING why has Asia (especially Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and to large parts Malaysia ) managed to knock down those hiedous slums??? PEOPLE ARE NOT FOND OF LIVING IN SLUMS BEING SURROUNDED BY STAGNANT WATEr; RUBBISH; SHIT; FILTH:::IT IS UTTER HELL!!!!!!! people don´t deserve to live like pigs...especially when countries are oil rich like Nigeria or Angola. IT IS A SHAME WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING???? Enriching switerzerland again??? People need proper housing URGENTLY there is absolutely no excuse and no debate it is a human right, period.

Matt, how long has the Angolan economy been growing for? 6 or 7 years? It takes time before you can commit that type of investment. Do you think South Korea did it all in 6 or 7 years?

For me, the biggest failure is that investment in agriculture is still not sufficient. Ghana spends more on agriculture (as % of GDP) than Angola but Angola should be spending more because it imports most of its food. People left their farms to go and live in Luanda, its time for the people to go back to the farms which would help a lot of slums.

:)

ninguem esta fodido.

Blacklion,


I do understand what you are saying but you are still looking for excuses far too much here and there.

Ask the people if they are happy to live in slums! I don´t know if you are aware of what it means to live in a slum while you sit cozily somehwere in the USA with all the amenities that other people in the world and in Africa in particular should get as well.

It is certainly not about shopping malls, new roads or glitzy skyscrapers. we are talking of basic human rights in here - clean water, decent housing, electricity!!

and wait a minute as for the ressources? around $300 billion US dollars were stolen by Nigerian elite since the discovery of oil. Do you know how many decent houses for the poor and needy could have been built with that money? Abject poverty shouldn´t exist in Nigeria nowadays.

...and it should neither be the case for Angola...I read that there are still 75% of the population without adequate housing....civil war or not, numbers have to be cut back to at least 35% in the next 10-15 years, this has to be done quickly and this is not far-fetched but should be manageable!

Angola has the FINANCIAL MEANS to do that (it is not Burundi, benin, Togo etc.)....and certainly the people would be overjoyed to own their own houses...this would instill the ordinary citizen with national pride.

Housing should be subsidized so that it is affordable for the masses.

I agree but sometimes if you rush these things it can be a disaster. Glasgow had some of the worst slums in Western Europe after the war and they were so desperate to get rid of them that they knocked them down and built numerous horrible peripheral housing estates similar to Paris' suburbs. This rapid upheaval destroyed communities who were previously at least close and the new estates had few amenities. Within a decade or two they looked like crap again because the underlying problem of unemployment was not tackled so bored kids would just vandalise everything.

A better idea that I think Angola could learn from, is the construction of self contained satellite towns- well planned with shopping centres and industrial complexes to provide employment. Glasgow built 3 of these after the war and I think they were generally a success.

Angola shantytown and market torn down for modern urban renewal:cheers:

By Cecile de Comarmond (AFP) – 2 days ago

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media/ALeqM5hDBDcE4nv-vP_17igcGP2UMp95UQ?docId=photo_1286948832136-1-0&size=l
Luanda's Sambizanga community used to house one of Africa's biggest markets but a renewal plan has flattened the area

LUANDA — The chaotic maze of vendors' stalls where Angola's largest open-air market used to sit has been replaced by an empty landscape pockmarked by gaping holes.

Roque Santeiro, once touted as Africa's biggest market sprawled chaotically on the shores of Luanda Bay, was torn down :cheers:on September 5 and moved 20 kilometres (12 miles) away as part of the capital city's urban renewal plan.

But residents of Sambizanga, the impoverished neighbourhood where the market once lay, say its closure has left an economic void in the lives of the buyers, sellers and hangers-on who used to throng the narrow allies between its stalls.

"Before we could go shopping easily, everything was accessible. Now we don't know where to go," said Conceicao Panzo, a 40-year-old mother of six who says her cost of living has risen sharply since "Roque" was torn down.

The loss of the market has also cut into the livelihoods of people who depended on it for work, leading to an increase in crime in the area, Panzo said.

"There used to be lots of work for the vagrants in Roque. They made deliveries with hand carts. Now that Roque has been torn down, they've gone crazy. Security is worse. The thieves come right into our houses," she told AFP.

Roque Santeiro grew up chaotically in the 1980s, as refugees from Angola's 1975-2002 civil war flooded into Sambizanga.

The market became the economic hub of the shantytown, known as a place where virtually anything could be bought from vegetables to blue jeans to DVDs and even live monkeys.

But Sambizanga officials say the market was a sanitation hazard and a breeding ground for crime.

"Roque Santeiro is a space where various kinds of organised crime are perpetrated, from armed assault to drug trafficking to prostitution, etc," district administrator Jose Tavares Ferreira told AFP.

Ferreira said removing the market is part of an urban renewal plan that will improve life for residents of Sambizanga.:cheers:

The city has not yet announced its new plan for the space.

The government has meanwhile set up a new market in Panguila, 20 kilometres away. But sellers who have transferred to the new site say their business has not followed.

"Transportation is very expensive. It's 1,000 kwanzas (11 dollars, eight euros) to go there and back. And we have to lower our prices, because there are no customers," said Amaral, a 35-year-old blue jeans vendor.

"Before people could come to buy pants, or a CD. Now they aren't going to spend 1,000 kwanzas on transport to come to Panguila."

Joaquim Catinda, the director of Angola's leading micro-credit bank, KixiCredito, said no Roque Santeiro vendors who transferred to Panguila have been able to continue taking out loans with the organisation.

"We don?t see Panguila as a viable alternative to people selling in Roque," he said.

"The road is nasty going there. It?s a very difficult journey. And in addition to that, the market has opening hours from 8:00 am to 4:00 pm. It?s too late. People from smaller markets won't go there to buy."

Vendors who have not gone to Panguila are getting by however they can.

Many have transferred their stands to other markets around Luanda, where they fight for space with established sellers. Others sell their merchandise on the street.

A handful have returned to a corner of Roque Santeiro and set up new stalls. But residents say it's only a matter of time before the city removes them too.

"This won't last either. They'll tear it down," said 58-year-old housewife Catarina Domingos.

"And then what are we going to do to buy food?"

...good to see a decisive effort taken à la Chinese:cheers: and African laissez faire chaos is fought back vigorously...the problem is that the people MUST NOT be left aside but retransfered into adequate market stalls that comply Western standards of sanitation and order...CLEANINESS AND ORDER ARE OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE!!!

the were sent to panguila market...I guess someone already post it...look around bro