My site name will soon be insp!re .... yayyyyyy! :)

ok, lol.

Right Im back, Been away in Thailand for 10 days chillin. Spent 7 days at the sheraton in Phuket and 2 days at the Four Seasons in bangkok and am now officially relaxed and de-stressed so its back to Dubai and 414 mails to deal with. Anyways will ahve loads of threads to look at and add my 2 cents too.
Hey who is Cape Town Guy and why hasent he told us more on the introduction thread???

I will now.

nice to meet you.
Anyways whats the latest in ZAR this weeK?

wow...whatta dedthred... we need a PARTAY!

Hey.. was wondering, where are Pule and Mike from Cape Town? Haven't seen them in a while...

and Wiaan?

I know I miss them... probably jsut busy. Pule has gone through 'missing' periods before, if I am correct. He sure is passionate though (about South Africa) and its good to have him around.

oh- and ENGIMA left because he was being harrassed by harkerb...

oh- and ENGIMA left because he was being harrassed by harkerb...

:rofl:

and luckily u didnt lose me...it was very close :)

but now u get me...and soon u will get me more often with the new site!!! cant wait for that...got some good backers for it...it is going to be different what i think ur expecting...hopefully u all have fast broadband or else there will be problems using it

Uhuh I sucked for awhile there. Things in my life were making me into an idiot- I am truly sorry- try not to remind me of that time. ;)

--------------------------

dysan, you should call your site urbanDURBAN!

the site is called DurbanLIFE.

it covers a wide range of things! Its related to the mag that will be launched later on...UrbanLIFE.

Lots in store

when is it launching?

site in sept, mag in Nov

I assume that, as usual, assume they are considering recruiting from English speaking paragons of good governance such as Cuba and Romania.

I wonder what senior municipal officials get paid now?

I remember them frantically getting rid of all senior, highly skilled white managers 10 years ago. My friends father with 30 years experience in 3 countries, a BScEng and an MBA was paid R2m to leave and was replaced by a person who could barely write. He took the money and left as he was sick of being called a racist everytime he tried to explain that the new "managers" insane schemes were technically unworkable.

Cry the stupid country?
----------

Foreign skills could bail out municipalities

July 25 2005 at 09:41AM

By Moshoeshoe Monare

The government might import foreigners to bolster municipalities suffering from dire skills shortages and to speed up the delivery of basic amenities and housing.

Speaking after the two-day cabinet lekgotla, President Thabo Mbeki said on Sunday it was quite clear that if people with the necessary skills could not be found in the country, they would have to be imported "to train our own people to be able to fill these posts. It is quite clear that capacity is a problem".

In rural areas, the biggest problem was to retain skilled professionals such as engineers.

'It is quite clear that capacity is a problem'
The president said the lekgotla had found a shortage of skills in the local government and housing departments.

"We are focusing on local government because it is clear that we are not going to make very much progress if the system of local government is weak."





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


He told the story of one province's audit of the skills of its top municipal managers. Carried out by a private company, the audit used a scale of one to four, with one being poor and four being excellent.

"The premier said the average capacity skills level in the senior echelons of the municipal level came to 1,6. You are counting on a management to lead us in terms of local government development when the skills level of that management is very low," Mbeki said.

Most municipalities were being managed by teachers, who "may very well be good teachers, but are they good managers?"

The lekgotla had found that municipal programmes were not integrated with the national department's intervention projects.

Using the national housing department as an example, Mbeki said there were provincial housing departments that were a third understaffed.

^^ That is also a major reason why unemployment is so high. The labour force still has the skills of an agrarian/manufacturing-based society, while the economy has shifted to a services-based one. No one has addressed the absence of skills in south africa's current labour force.

Quite right. In spite of unemployment, there are huge numbers of unfilled jobs.

I am sure the government is doing something to try fill the gap, but most South Africans are pretty lazy when it comes to doing difficult extra training. Much easier to just protest for jobs.

Khayelitsha and Inanda could be turned into giant IT parks if the people there were trained.

On another note. I am rather disturbed by the absence of police stations in the townships. The crime rate is highest in the townships yet there is a notable absence of cops. Why hasn't anything been done about this?

Just putting spires msg up here: Do you all have a problem with me like he says??? am i being unreasonable wanting to make a difference to a pathetic gallery? i'm not attacking the little boy like he thinks, just wanting to make a difference...surely u see that? if not, i will leave the forums, if i am not wanted here. u decide.


1.) So you just want to leave the current gallery out to dry including other peoples' photos? No thanks.

Basically all the photos up are mine, so leaving other peoples out is hardly going to happen.

2.) We already have a Durban gallery. A thread's quality depends on its contents... so just add the photos to the existing one- no problem.

The existing one has no quality whatsoever. to deny that is being stupid. Yes the quality does depend on its contents and thats exactly the reason why i want to do what i am doing.

3.) The reason I have asked for info. to be typed up was so that you could show your love for Durban and I knew you were enthustiastic and would be willing to type of reports on things like The Point. As well, you complained about the 'outdated' info. i nthe Durban fact file, so I asked you if you would like to do a new one. It would have been good, but I guess you don't want to help out anyone but yourself. You seem to only want to post photos for your own sake.

I have almost finished doing all that anyway. Anyway u argumentative little prick, by me doing this new proper picture thread, it is for everyone else, cos the way things have been done up to now is useless and frankly not helpfull for anyone. And saying that it is for my own sake is like saying that u being in charge of the fact files is for ur own sake too! be careful how u say that.

And don't complain to me; many forumers have had sour remarks about your behaviour on the forums. You may want to keep that in mind.

REALLY??? I doubt that quite alot actually, since i have had a few pm's telling me that they are glad i am standing my ground and trying to get some stuff into ur head. Not everyone is happy with ur attitude and ur work. yes u appologised for what u did in the begining, but it need not have happened at all. But the past aint the issue here.

I feel nothing wrong with what i am doing. I actually (and have been told this when i checked my msgs today) have support. People are glad that there will be improved changes to a dismal pic thread.

But u know what. Enough with me giving u the dignity of response. When u see the new improved gallery up. u can hate it. u can say things about me. whatever. But it will be proof that what i am doing was worth the effort and it will be well received. So back off.

U didnt care in deleting my thread in the first place did u? so here will be a new one for u to ponder over

Just laying it out the way it is. We already have a Durban gallery, and it is uniform with the Joburg and CT. Your photos can go in the existing one- if you want them on the first page so it is the first thing people see in that thread, I can do that for you. But we don't need another forum revolution or something- just add them to the existing thread.

U just dont get it. i'm so tired of arguing. Come back and comment when it is finished. and it will be "uniform" in the sense that it will be the Durban Gallery. it wont be, in that it will be very well thought out.

Enough...i'm out of here

ciao...michael

Khayelitsha and Inanda could be turned into giant IT parks if the people there were trained.

On another note. I am rather disturbed by the absence of police stations in the townships. The crime rate is highest in the townships yet there is a notable absence of cops. Why hasn't anything been done about this?

The pathetic ANC have built police stations in townships but the problem is that the police are corrupt or criminals themselves - a vicious circle that just keeps going around and around.

Re: dysan's post

Although it is against forum rules to post PM's on the boards, I can see this is what has happened.

Anyways, dysan is a forumer who gets very angry with me and cannot get through to people because he is in such a fluster. I never knew he meant to replace the existing Durban *Gallery*. It seemed he wanted a new breakoff one, which seemed silly and strangely rebellious.

I thought dysan had learned that sending me a 10-paragraph angry PM out of nowhere gets him.. nowhere. I am not saying this to bash him, but I want him to know- the reason things went smoothly for so long was because he was calm and thoughtful in his PM's and simply told me his idea instead of adding insults and such into them.

So, I don't care what happens with Durban threads anymore... go ahead.


ps. "And saying that it is for my own sake is like saying that u being in charge of the fact files is for ur own sake too! be careful how u say that."
I am the flipping moderator, dysan- my job is to put up information, organize it, and keep it updated and that's what I do everyday for everyone else.

(and the audience sreams) jerry jerry jerry!!!

2 days left, will be in Durban, will NEED COCK. Where the f*** should I go to meet hot gay guys?

this little spat is getting boring and i seroiusly suggest you two act a little bit more mature for the sake of all of the other forumers. Spire is the moderator (which no one else wanted) and as such he is entitled to run this site as he chooses, knowing what hes done to date and his history on the forum he is very pasionate and is trying to improve things. Dysan is equally passionate about whats been done to date.
However i dont need to read about your dispute, keep it civil and let the rest of us enjoy this site.

If you didn't notice, I resolved it, stating that I will not intrude into Durban issues. I really don't care, to be honest. I'm just another forumer.

Is St John's College the best school in Joburg?

no idea.

"Is St John's College the best school in Joburg?"

It's one of the best schools in the country. For boys only. They get top results, are very sporty, and have a fabulous music department. :)

Already know where to send my kids when I move to South Africa :tongue2: :D

(I'm not married, I am just an 18-year old)

Best south african schools:
Natal
Hilton
Maritzburg Collage
DHS-Durban High School
Michealhouse
Dont know the rest
but bishops (CT)
Grey (bloem) etc are up there

For sport. Paarl Boys and Paarl Gym and Jeppies (sorry if spelt wrong) in JHB. Kersney should also be there.

its quite crazy that almost half of the sprinbok squad come from the two Paarl schools. It was derby day yesterday. they get 20 000 people coming to watch.

Best south african schools:
Natal
Hilton
Maritzburg Collage
DHS-Durban High School
Michealhouse
Dont know the rest
but bishops (CT)
Grey (bloem) etc are up there


bishops??? urrrgh i cant believe you would do that to your kids shame...
co-ed schools are the way to go and def not the old age traditional schools that force all children irrepsective of religion to go to chapel each morning....the smaller private schools are the way to go....bridge house, reddam house( scools in atlantic seaboard, sydney,and tokai) st stithians is a good school, all depends on what you want for your children....i would prefer the smaller non blazer wearing, co ed , freedom of culture type school...however the larger schools are of course best for sport and so forth..some schools offer exams on the IEB exam which has a standard set higher than the national exams which is better IMO

SCHOOLS THAT WRITE IEB EXAMS

Eastern Cape top

* Diocesan School for Girls Grahamstown
* Kingswood College
* Knysna Montessori School (2008)
* Merrifield College
* Paul Kruger Kollege Vir Christelike Onderwys
* St Andrew's College, Grahamstown
* St Dominic's Priory High School (Port Elizabeth)
* St George's College
* St Mark's Community School
* Tyldon School
* Vela School
* Woodridge College

Free State top

* Harriston, Harrismith
* Lady Grey Arts Academy (2008)
* St Andrew's School, Welkom
* St Dominic's College, Welkom

Gauteng top

* Anchor Christian Academy (2006)
* Ashton International College
* Assumption Convent School
* Aurora Private School
* Barnato Park High School
* Beaulieu College
* Bishop Bavin School
* Brescia House School
* CBC Mount Edmund, Pretoria
* CBC St Aquin's, Boksburg
* Cornwall Hill College
* Dainfern College
* Damelin College, Randburg
* De La Salle Holy Cross College (Victory Park)
* Deutsche Schule, Pretoria
* Deutsche Schule, zu Johannesburg
* Didaskos Christelike Privaatskool (Benoni)
* Grace Christian School (Boksburg)
* Greenacres Private High School
* Hartwell Private School (2006)
* Harvest Christian School
* Hatfield Christian School
* Helpmekaar Kollege
* Henley High & Preparatory School
* Heronbridge College (2006)
* Hirsch Lyons Boys' High School
* Holy Rosary School
* Hyde Park High School
* Jubilee Christian School
* King David High School, Linksfield
* King David High School, Victory Park
* Kingfisher Private School
* King's School, Bryanston (The)
* King's School, Linbro Park (The)
* King's School, Robin Hills (The)
* King's School, West Rand (The)
* Kingsmead College
* La Salle College (Florida)
* Leeuwenhof Akademie
* Maragon Private School Ruimsig (Pty) Ltd
* Marian College
* Michael Mount Waldorf School
* Prestige College
* Pretoria Chinese School
* Reddam House, Bedfordview
* Redhill School
* Roedean School
* Sacred Heart College
* Sagewood College
* Saheti School
* Sedaven High School
* Shangri-la Academy
* Shree Bharat Sharda Mandir Independent
* St Alban's College
* St Andrew's School for Girls, Senderwood
* St Benedict's College (Bedfordview)
* St Catherine's Convent (Florida Hills)
* St Catherine's Dominican Convent (Germiston)
* St David's Marist College
* St Dominic's School (Boksburg)
* St Dunstan's College
* St John's College
* St Martin's Senior School
* St Mary's Diocesan School for Girls (Pretoria)
* St Mary's School, Waverley
* St Peter's College
* St Stithians Boys College
* St Stithians Girls College
* St Teresa's Mercy Convent
* St Ursula's School
* Summit College
* Trinityhouse School
* Tshedi Education Centre
* Tshwane Christian School
* Veritas College
* Verney College
* Village Montessori Independent High School (2006)
* Woodhill College
* Woodlands International College
* Yeshiva College

Kwa-Zulu Natal top

* Clifton College
* Creston College
* Deutsche Schule Hermannsburg
* Didaskos Akademie (Amanzimtoti)
* Durban Girls' College
* Epworth High School
* Evangel Christian School
* Felixton College
* Grace College (Hilton)
* Grantleigh
* Hilton College
* Holy Family College
* Kearsney College
* Maris Stella School
* Maritzburg Christian School
* Michaelhouse
* Our Lady of Fatima Convent School
* Rehoboth Christian School
* Richards Bay Christian School
* Seaforth College (2006)
* St Anne's Diocesan College
* St Benedict’s School (Pinetown)
* St Charles College
* St Dominic's Academy (Newcastle)
* St Henry's Marist Brothers College
* St John's Diocesan School for Girls
* St Mary's Diocesan School for Girls, Kloof
* St Nicholas Diocesan School (2008)
* St Patrick's College (Kokstad)
* Thomas More College
* Treverton College
* Waterfall College
* Wykeham Collegiate (The)

Limpopo top

* Eagle's Nest Christian School
* Kings Court (The)
* Pepps Polokwane College
* Pietersburg Christian School (2007)
* Stanford Lake College

Mozambique top

* Abacus School
* Trichardt School for Christian Education

Mpumalanga top

* Liberty Christian College
* Penryn College
* St Thomas Aquinas School (Witbank)
* Uplands College
* Wem School (Swaziland)

Namibia top

* Aussenkehr Akademie
* Elnatan Privaatskool
* Privaatskool Keetmanshoop
* Privaatskool Moria
* Pro Ed Academy
* Tsumeb Gimnasium
* Windhoek Afrikaans Privaatskool

Northern Cape top

* CBC St Patrick's
* Hoërskool Olifantshoek Akademie vir CVO

Northwest Province top

* Lebone II Independent School
* Selly Park Secondary School
* St Conrad's College
* Volkskool Vryburg

Swaziland top

* Enjabulweni High School
* Mananga College
* Sisekelo High School

Western Cape top

* Bridge House School
* Elkanah House (2006)
* Môrester Independent School
* Oakhill School
* Parklands College
* Principia Kollege
* Reddam House, Atlantic Seaboard
* Reddam House, Constantia
* Somerset College
.

Bridge House. thats my school!! Somerset colledge, theyre our rivals.

Bridge House. thats my school!! Somerset colledge, theyre our rivals.

one of my FAVE teachers ever now teaches at bridge house, she is the head of the afrikaans department, what grade are you in cape town guy?

im a bishops boy ,so send ur child to bishops the best skool in sa

im a bishops boy ,so send ur child to bishops the best skool in sa

shame....urrrgh, no ways they not even IEB, good sports and the compulsory visit to the chapel each day, not even co-ed lol really an overpriced school...

one of my FAVE teachers ever now teaches at bridge house, she is the head of
the afrikaans department, what grade are you in cape town guy?

Im in grade nine.
Afrikaans dep head i think is a lady by the name of René Alston now Beste (divorced).

Im in grade nine.
Afrikaans dep head i think is a lady by the name of René Alston now Beste (divorced).

uh huh she is awesome..

what school were you at when you had her?

what school were you at when you had her?

reddam house constantia

there are three people in my grade from there. Duncan Alston, James Nickelson, and Nicholas Kerkman. Know any of them?You out of school?whats your name?

there are three people in my grade from there. Duncan Alston, James Nickelson, and Nicholas Kerkman. Know any of them?You out of school?whats your name?

duncan is her son, uh the other two dont sound familiar, im second year UCT now so prob dont know them

k. just wondering.

Congratulation Springboks on your victory over the australians!! I love rugby and I support the springboks and the pumas now :D
http://www.laguindarugby.com.ar/images/logoUAR.jpg http://www.sarugby.org.uk/logos/sa-top-logo.jpg

yea the 2nd match wasn't that great we gave away a bonus point cant wait for nz match the match will be in cape town YA!!

you going i guess?

hell ya MY BLOOD IS GREEN"yes i know thats starting to sound lame now"

yeah.lol

Why don't you guys use afrikaans in this forum?

want daar is baie mense dat kan die taal nie praat nie, soos jy.

Why don't you guys use afrikaans in this forum?

Many people cannot speak Afrikaans very fluently, so we rarely use it...;)

want daar is baie mense dat kan die taal nie praat nie, soos jy.

miss alston will be terrified with your afrikaans!!

hahahahaha nice! didn't understand a thing!! but a tour guide told me that in South Africa, afrikaans is more spoken than english! is that true?

Depends on who you talk to ;)

it might be. but english i the largest second language. Almost everyone can speak it.

miss alston will be terrified with your afrikaans!!

she is. lol. i can speak it. but when it come to putting it on paper, goodbye marks.

je ne parle pas afrikaans je suis francais bleh! mais je peux parle un petit xhosa et afrikaans :)

hehe ;)

ah...tres bien mon chouchou

Oui- J'aime le francais. Je le suis le meilleur parler francais sur le section d'afrique du sud parce que je suis dans Toronto!!!

Mais, quand je se deplacerai au l'afrique du sud, il apprendrai Afrikaans.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry... not very nice of me. Anyways, AAS, your avatar kicks @ss!!!

That's alright SP!RE, all languages that come from latin are quite easy to understand for me :)
I know, it's awesome!!!! Argentina and South Africa have so many things in common!

SALUT SPIRE! c'est tres bizzare je ne connais pas il y a beaucoup de francais dans le forum,ou est que tu as apprendre francais dysan?

WHAT!lol

Hey!!! Do u guys know if there is anyway I can watch some south african TV on the internet?

dammit i cant remember the site- but there is a site where you can watch SABC news...

http://kudu.kuduclub.com/

No other streaming SA T.V. that I know of, but you can stream S.A. Radio - http://antfarm.co.za/anthelp/radioAnts.jsp

*Try 5FM first, aimed more towards the youth of S.A.*

Durban has a radio station as well that you might be interested in - http://www.ecr.co.za/content/view/15/44/

Happy listening.

Thank you for the radio stations! I'm gonna listen to it right now lol

Just wanted to welcome LandedFlyer to the forum- You're welcome here anytime!!!

Everyone say hello! ;)

Hello Landed Flyer! :) Welcome to the SA forum, and have a great time!

hello

hey another durbnite

I dont see anything from him? has he filled out the introduction to the forum thread?

1 Harvard Univ USA 100.0
2 Stanford Univ USA 77.2
3 Univ Cambridge UK 76.2
4 Univ California - Berkeley USA 74.2
5 Massachusetts Inst Tech (MIT) USA 72.4
6 California Inst Tech USA 69.0
7 Princeton Univ USA 63.6
8 Univ Oxford UK 61.4
9 Columbia Univ USA 61.2
10 Univ Chicago USA 60.5
11 Yale Univ USA 58.6
12 Cornell Univ USA 55.5
13 Univ California - San Diego USA 53.8
14 Tokyo Univ Japan 51.9
15 Univ Pennsylvania USA 51.8
16 Univ California - Los Angeles USA 51.6
17 Univ California - San Francisco USA 50.8
18 Univ Wisconsin - Madison USA 50.0
19 Univ Michigan - Ann Arbor USA 49.3
20 Univ Washington - Seattle USA 49.1
21 Kyoto Univ Japan 48.3
22 Johns Hopkins Univ USA 47.5
23 Imperial Coll London UK 46.4
24 Univ Toronto Canada 44.6
25 Univ Coll London UK 44.3
25 Univ Illinois - Urbana Champaign USA 43.3


UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN rank 201 total score:16.22 rank 2003 : 289
UNIVERSITY OF WITSWATERSRAND rank 304 total score : 12.53 rank 2003:460
UNIVERSITY OF KWAZULU NATAL rank 440 total score: 9.15 rank 2003: 418
UNIVERSITY OF PRETORIA rank 481 total score: 8.40 rank 2003: 495

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/4448/unirank0vy.png

My future university. UCT. yeah.

I'm very dissapointed with the SA forumers!!!

why?

why?

because we know that cape town is more beautiful than beirut....

lol. oh for sure.

Your comments about my city weren't very nice!! i never bashed any south african cities and i always supported your forum. Thanks anyways.

Wait, I thought Wits was the best university in SA!!! Which is the best university, if I want to go to Law School in SA?

Wait, I thought Wits was the best university in SA!!! Which is the best university, if I want to go to Law School in SA?

UCT is best for law, stellies quite good with medicine, UCT good for business as well
wits better for property/economics/medicine/computer science

come to UCT!

I'll definitely have to think about that!!!

cool.

UCT is best for law, stellies quite good with medicine, UCT good for business as well
wits better for property/economics/medicine/computer science


Wits is the best school for law IMO. UCT, however, based on the amount of research conducted at a university, is the best in the country overall. But for individual schools, Wits is definitely the best for law. Our MBA is also the best in the country. Our commerce/economics dept is crap though - if you want to go into that field, you go to Univ Joburg.

I agree. For law, WITS is the best, UCT can lay claim to being the best in commercial subjects, but according to the law society of sa it ranks as only the 3rd best law school in south africa, behind WITS and UKZN's Howard School of Law.


And how rude of u to the guy from beirut!!!!

Ok, thank you for all the information, definitely Wits then! :okay:

Hey boys and girls ;) I have arrived in Auckland and WOW ! This city is way beyond my expectations and a buzzing metropolis of note. Anybody that knows me knows that I love Paris most of all but I am pleased to tell you that Auckland has dethroned Paris with a bang ! I feel as if I have come from the 19th Century and time travelled into the 21st Century .... I will provide you all with a report once I am settled - be prepared to be blown away.

This is my new home - on the 18th floor of The Metropolis (39 floors) ......

http://www.skyscraperpicture.com/auckland13.jpg

WOW Enigma... I must say that it does look stunning, and I'm kinda jealous! ;) I'm looking forward to lots of stunning Gandalf photos. :)

Congratulations! My friend has moved to Auckland last week as well and he is loving that city, I've heard so many things of it, and he has been there for only a week!

glad u like it gandi :)

I know that building. I KNEW you'd want to live @ The Metropolis. Second tallest in Auckland, right? Beautiful building, too! Auckland was lucky to get it ;)

metropolis is cool, great cafes and shops at its base street, nice Hugo Boss store at the little shopping arcade there.Gandalf, dont want to rain on your parade but give Ackland 6months with the weather (My absolute hate) and the people(very peroquial and one eyed view on the world )and business attitude( the world revolves around NZ circa 1970 and if it anit broke dont fix "read improve")and then give us a report back. Also make sure you go see henderson, manukau (where Once were worriers was shot) to see the Ghetto you mentioned in the kiwi thread.

Congrats Sydney. A lovely building :)

sweet auckland i really like it nice and chilled.....then again its home to the all blacks bah!

Go Springboks lol...

hey aas guess who just signed up for western prov. here in cape town your home boy federico mendez maybe more puma's will move down in the future ;-)

Really?? That's great news!!!! I'd love to watch a pumas vs springboks game lol

If South Africa is going to be put on the map, I feel we really need to change some things. The Pearl Umhlanga Towers are beautiful, but I think they are too short. I feel it would be better if they made them (the tallest one) around 340 meters or at least 1,000 feet. It is a great pity that our tallest building (The Carlton Center) is only 730 feet. This is the 21st Century and we need to be creating buildings that are much more taller than that! Personally I think that building (Carlton Center) is an eyesore, and needs to swallowed up or hidden up by taller and more beautiful buildings. Durban, I feel especially has the potential to be what Chicago is to America, or what Dubai is to the world. The Umhlanga Towers would be monument to the beginning of that, and a great monument to the New South Africa and the African rennaisance.
I feel the statue of Nelson Mandela needs to be put in Cape Town on Robben Island, maybe, It would be a great monument to his legacy, and an example to the hopeless and downtroddenthat all things are possible, no matter who you are. Plus, it would be a great tourist attraction, :). Even though the Port Elizabeth area is near his hometown, Mandela is more a symbol of all South Africa, and I don't really like the idea of having his statue there. Also, maybe, later on in the future, somewhere in the Drakensburg Mountains, we could put a mural of the great leaders of South Africa, I don't know, what do you all think? I know would cost a lot. But, hey this is South Africa, we have more gold than any country in the world.
But going back to the Umhlanga towers they definitely need to be taller. People are are impressed by bigness and beauty, and if the Umlanga Pearl Towers are taller it would be a double whammy!

So give Cape Town the statue, and let Port Elizabeth continue to struggle? You are comparing SA to the USA and other countries, but those countires have given their smaller cities a chance too... we most definitely shouldn't give everything to Durban, CT, and Joburg.. or atleast not for much longer.


Welcome to the forums btw. ;)

Port Elizabeth's day will come, but right now we need to focus on polishing up our major cities first.

Thing is...what can PE bring to the game?

From a geographical standpoint it struggles. CT is big cos it is so removed from the rest of the country. Pretoria cos of government. Joburg cos of gold and hence its powerful economic standing. Durban cos of its harbour and closeness to Gauteng.

What does PE have in its favour? From a harbour point, coega will never succeed unless its subsidised by gov, for Richard's Bay and Durban are far closer to Gauteng and more economically viable than Coega.

I really dont know what to say in its favour. It doesnt seem to have any major strengths...except that it likes to ride on nelson mandelas name!!

Eastern Cape and KZN showing surprising stamina

(Residential)
The residential property market at present is a bit like a marathon, according to a lead article in the August edition of the Intellectual Property magazine.

The early leader, Cape Town is beginning to falter as it hits an uphill stretch; Gauteng is pacing itself in middle place, while previously unfancied outsiders KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape have surged to the front from a poor start and are showing surprising stamina.

Generally speaking, says Pam Golding Properties chief executive Dr Andrew Golding in the article, the market has come off the boil – more so in some areas, hardly noticeable in others. “Let’s face the fact that 2004 was an extraordinary year for property, with year-on-year average growth of 28,04 percent, reaching over 35 percent in some areas. We are definitely not gong to experience this again in 2005.”

“Nevertheless,” says Dr Golding, “average house price growth for the year up till May this year was 24 percent, indicating that considerable impetus was carried over from the previous bumper year.”

From a regional perspective, Durban and Cape Town registered higher growth than Johannesburg and Pretoria during 2004, while metro growth was greater than non-metro. Port Elizabeth and East London streaked ahead, admittedly from a depressed base, to rival Durban and Cape Town.

So what lies ahead? Standard Bank’s new Residential Property Gauge, according to the article, forecasts residential property price growth of between 18 to 25 percent for this year, but Golding is a mite more cautious.

“We at PGP estimate across the board house price growth for 2005 of 15 percent. Obviously price increases will vary from region to region depending on a combination of factors.”

These include the recent unprecedented price boom, the reduction in pent up demand after several years of brisk buying, and the now fading impact of previous interest rate cuts.

“Scarcity of land in urban centres is also a contributing factor in price growth, particularly in Cape Town where house prices have outstripped building costs. Another interesting factor is that existing house prices are growing at nearly double the rate of en house prices.”

Buyers and sellers need to get the residential property market into perspective, urges Golding. “It is unlikely that we will see 30 percent to 40 percent price growth in the short term, so house-seekers and investors must realise that even a 15 percent growth factor is very comfortable. After all, at that rate you double your money in five years.”

Overall, Golding doesn’t agree that this is a buyers’ market, as some industry commentators suggest. “Simply put, buyers are more discerning and sellers are more realistic. But sales activity is still high and showhouse attendance remains good, so the interest in property is still there.”


Golding points to seasonal factors affecting the market, particularly in the Western Cape. “The Cape Town market has always had a seasonal slump, and the current winter is not only early, it’s probably the wettest and coldest for around five years. The Garden Route too is always seasonable; in fact, most non-metropolitan coastal towns are quiet.”

The group’s Gauteng offices report that the market has flattened, although seller expectations are still high. New building is still strong and there is a shortage of up-market stock. Pretoria prices are still increasing as is sales volume, but this to some extent is artificially affected by sales to diplomats and foreign companies.

Although published statistics indicate that the top end of the housing market is not performing as well as the middle-to-lower segments (which is understandable), Golding points out in the article that the luxury market continues to compete on an international stage and that foreign investors compare SA prices favourably. “There is over-demand and under-supply in the luxury market, which constitutes some 10 percent of our sales at the top end, and less than one percent overall.

If one takes our recent highest sale price for a luxury Atlantic Seaboard apartment, it is still one third off the price per square metre of a comparable flat in London’s Knightsbridge.”

Golding, meanwhile, points out that the overall housing market has a relatively new and interesting player – the emerging black middle class, strongest in the Gauteng region.

Standard Bank statistics show that the black population accounts for 45 percent of total consumer spending and that the propensity to consume is above average, and growing.

However, BER figures show that black people spend 13 percent of their total income on housing and electricity, while the white population segment spends 19,8 percent of total household income.

“There are serious opportunities for real estate professionals, as the black emerging middle class starts to catch up,” says Golding. “This in itself will have a profound impact on the property market.”



Submitted: 17 Aug 2005

Port Elizabeth is the Detroit of South Africa, they will continue to make cars. There seriously isn't much to do there anyways except to maybe go to the beach, and visit the future statue, apart from that its a boring place. Most tourists will not go out of their way to visit that place, they'll rather just stay in Cape Town, Joburg, or even Durban, and South Africa in the long run will just end up losing money. Rather than put the statue all the way to P.E, the best way to create jobs in P.E there is to just put an emphasis on making it a great industrial center, and even maybe a cultural center, too
Like I said before, we must first be concerned with polishing up our major cities. Having the statue on Robben Island would have such a strong, moving, symbolic meaning that it would not even be funny. Putting the Mandela statue in the Port Elizabeth is like putting the Statue of Liberty in Detroit. More people will always visit New York than Detroit; just like more people will always visit Cape Town than Port Elizabeth, statue or no statue.
I am really dissapointed that they are having it in P.E, and if it is carried out, this country will end up paying dearly for this dangerously stupid decision in the future. I think I need to start a petition to have the statue moved to Robben Island. Who will join me?

"I think I need to start a petition to have the statue moved to Robben Island. Who will join me?"

Well I think that might be a bit tough since if I'm not mistaken, it's Port Elizabeth who is funding the statue. I doubt they're gonna pay for something to get moved to Cape Town. ;)

I must disagree with you though.. I see your point that PE isn't as big as Cape Town or Durbs in terms of tourism, but I think it most certainly has the potential to be. Don't forget that PE is almost on the garden route, and this route of course attracts a lot of tourism. The statue has the potential to turn PE around.. people will go to PE just to see the statue.

If they know whats good for them they will. Cape Town has more money in its budget than P.E.


"Don't forget that PE is almost on the garden route,"

Key word = Almost

CRAP!!! who's gonna go to PE to see a statue that is in memory of nelson mandela, but is not even of him, but is some abstract design? it all seems so strange.

As i said earlier, PE doesnt have any major USPs. U may say that it has potential, but dont all places have potential? I just really dont see what it can offer. Maybe stick to the cars...cos as a tourist spot it is horrible!!!!!!!!!!! U land and drive straight to st francis!

The emerging market has surfaced

(Residential) The emerging market has emerged, according to RE/MAX Southern Africa.

Statistics indicate in areas such as Pietermaritzburg an estimated 40 percent of all residential property sales now involve previously disadvantaged buyers and their full merging in all buying sectors within the property market.

“With the racial integration of South Africa’s middle class, there can no longer be said to be racial differentiation in real estate. The racial categorisation of many areas has changed considerably over the past few years, leaving classification of geographical areas determined only by income profiles and lifestyle patterns,” says Rob Hyde, Broker/Owner of RE/MAX Traders in Gauteng.

Statistics presented by UNISA’s Bureau of Market Research show that South Africa’s black middle class is clearly on the up – almost 40 percent of the 20 percent highest income earning category of households are black.

In the mid to late nineties the anticipated trend in property was for black buyers to target traditionally typically white-owned areas. Instead, buying trends tended to follow more conventional patterns, dependent on the economic and financial capabilities of buyers rather than a racial focus.

Vigorous activity in the property sector is now evident in all levels of the market where black buyers are concerned. The age-old cycle of young first-time buyers entering the market initially through the acquisition of an apartment, progressing to a townhouse as they accumulate equity, moving to a house as family demands play a role, and finally back to a townhouse or apartment as the children leave the nest is still relevant and stimulates substantial turnover in the market.

With mortgage rates at a 25-year low, home ownership is within reach for a huge number of first-time buyers. The first cycle of ownership for black buyers who entered the market soon after democracy is now complete. In fact, many have already journeyed through the third and even fourth phase in the property ownership cycle. This sector of the market is embracing the culture of homeownership as a wealth generator, typically progressing from entry level to the middle-income bracket and finally to large properties in upmarket suburbs.

“The re-appointment of Pietermaritzburg as the capital of KwaZulu-Natal has seen as huge influx of civil servants into the city, putting unprecedented pressure on property stock levels,” says Shanjay Maharaj, Broker Manager with RE/MAX Midlands. “Similar patterns are evident in Gauteng, with a significant increase in black ownership of residential properties in Pretoria’s central, eastern and western suburbs, and Johannesburg’s northern suburbs, with government employees wanting to live in close proximity to their place of work.”

Maharaj says despite the fact that the rental market is in over supply and there is downward pressure on rentals, many families are opting to buy their first homes in the belief that higher monthly costs will be offset by capital appreciation in the longer term.


Submitted: 18 Aug 2005

I personally don't like the design, either, I would rather have a statue of him outstretching his hand towards Table Bay or something. Like this

presenation1.jpg

mate it needs to have the whole online web address. so upload it to a photobucket, then paste the address in between the

C:\Documents and Settings\PY\Application Data\Microsoft\Media Catalog\artgal50.mmc

Hey Pieter, you have to upload your picture :)
Try www.imageshack.us, upload it and then copy the web address between

pieter
you need to tell us about yourself on the introduction thread

:gaah

Ugh!! I just can't do it.!

http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=presentation18fe.jpg

Ok, well I sort of have it down. I only have the link. I need to find out how to put whole pictures in. This whole ordeal is incredibly stupid. I don't understand why you can't just paste pictures on.

Great!!! Thanks for the picture Pieter!!! :okay:

50 cents of the day WE BEAT THOSE BLOODY CONVICTS IN THERE OWN BACK YARD YEAH!!! now for the sheep shaggers next week life good being a springbok :)

SA 22 - 19 Aus (Perth) TRI nations thats 3 in the role

50 cents of the day WE BEAT THOSE BLOODY CONVICTS IN THERE OWN BACK YARD YEAH!!! now for the sheep shaggers next week life good being a springbok :)

SA 22 - 19 Aus (Perth) TRI nations thats 3 in the role

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Ohhh yeah!!!! Brilliant win for the Springboks!!!!!!!
Already praying for next week!!!

50 cents of the day WE BEAT THOSE BLOODY CONVICTS IN THERE OWN BACK YARD YEAH!!! now for the sheep shaggers next week life good being a springbok :)

SA 22 - 19 Aus (Perth) TRI nations thats 3 in the role

note that south africa has won each of their three matches with 22 points....kinda freaky...3 straight wins wit 22 points each....the match made my heart beat a bit faster inmore ways than one lol

im so glad. first away win against australia since 1998.

ya but percy was a bit off he missed 4 pens and a drop goal if he just made 2 kicks we would have won 28 - 19 but a wins a win now for the all blacks .....the best result would be a draw i think as we would still win the tri nations 3 tries a piece

This is the headline article from the latest Engineering news...interesting read



SA seek salvation in regeneration

Twenty-five-odd years ago, South Africa’s central business districts (CBDs) were still the place to be, no matter what kind of business you were involved with.

Big businesses were conglomerated in the city centres, which is where the money and the power were.

Thousands of small businessescomplemented the big corporations.

Together, they provided an influx of money that safeguarded the financial wellbeing of South Africa’s cities. Neighbourhoods on the verges of the CBDs also prospered, and residential areas such as Hillbrow and Yeoville, in Johannesburg, and Sunnyside, in Tshwane – todayinfamous as hubs of crime and poverty – were sought-after placesto live.

However, beneath the apparentglossy veneer of inner-city life, South African cities, and thepeople dynamics that made them work, were deeply divided along racial lines.

In addition, the country’s cities, which were synonymous with employment opportunities, could never fulfil the demand for jobs by themasses of people who streamed in from rural areas, particularly when the stranglehold of apartheid started to weaken in the early 1990s.

Rooted in worsening socioeconomic conditions, crime invaded the CBDs, prompting many businesses to move out and find safety in the refuge of the suburbs.

In the process, many of South Africa’s cities lost their appeal to business altogether.

Crime and urban decay rapidly ate away at the prosperity created in the country’s CBDs.

The reinvention of South Africa’s cities
In 2000, after the first democraticelections for local government, plans to regenerate South Africa’s cities started in all earnest.

A firm commitment from thegovernment to transform society, coupled with new capital investments of billions of rands, is currently reviving the country’s cities.

Areas that were once primeexamples of urban degeneration in South Africa’s largest cities – Johannesburg, Cape Town, eThekwini (Durban), Tshwane (Pretoria), Bloemfontein, Buffalo City (East London) and Port Elizabeth – are the targets of multimillion-randinvestments.

Signs of the urban-regeneration drive are changing the landscapes of these cities and are attracting many well-heeled property buyers.

In Johannesburg, the Nelson Mandela Bridge and Newtown cultural precinct have given downtown areas such as Braamfontein a new lease of life.

And many of the city’s famous old buildings, dating from South Africa’s golden era of mining, such as the Corner House, are being revamped into executive dwellings or even corporate headquarters, in the case of Turbine Hall, which will become AngloGold Ashanti’s new base.

Buyers believe that downtown Johannesburg has the potential to soon be mentioned in the same league as uptown Manhattan, London or Tokyo.

Elsewhere in Johannesburg, inner-city residential schemes, such as Brickfields, aim to attract tenants from all income groups and serve as an example of the complete inte-gration of South African society.

Large corporations and private investors are also being encouraged to give downtown Johannesburg a second look.

In October last year, the nationalTreasury announced the launch of the urban-renewal tax incentive scheme, based on the Revenue Laws Amendment Act of 2003,to stimulate investment in thecountry’s urban areas.

The incentive is an accelerateddepreciation allowance to promoteand stimulate development within the CBDs of 16 large South African cities. It encourages the refurbishment and construction of commercial and residential buildings in designated decaying inner-city areas withinselected municipalities.

The government hopes that such investment will return the inner cities to their former glory as vibrant city centres and attract more and more people to live, work and be entertained in these areas.

It is expected that the incentive will also enhance broader growth and job creation, in particular.

According to the national Treasury, the incentive offers a great opportunity to investors – companies and individuals alike – to participate in the renewal and development of the inner cities.

The urban-renewal tax incentivewas first implemented in the urban-development zones (UDZs) of Johannesburg and Cape Town in October last year. On December 10, Minister ofFinance Trevor Manuel demarcat-ed a further seven UDZs in themunicipalities of eThekwini, Tshwane, Emfuleni (Vaal Triangle), Sol Plaatje (Kimberley), Mangaung (Bloemfontein), Buffalo City (East London) and Mbombela (Nelspruit). On June 8, the minister announced the approval of another four UDZ applications for the municipalities of Polokwane (Pietersburg), Nelson Mandela (Port Elizabeth), Msunduzi (Maritzburg) and Ekurhuleni (East Rand).

Each of the municipalities has chosen the demarcated areas for their specific UDZs, which were approved by their respective councils.

With 13 of the 16 municipalities already approved, it is expected that the three remaining municipalities – Mafikeng, Matjhabeng (Welkom) and Emalahleni (Witbank) – will be announced shortly. According to the Treasury, the incentive supports other initiatives, such as policies to write off existing bad debt from particular buildingsin the inner cities in order to allow the buildings to be sold, restored and refurbished.

The incentive also supports the objectives of the Department of Housing’s plan for the development of sustainable human settlements by encouraging private investment in affordable rental housing in the inner city.

The national Treasury adds that it further provides a possible catalyst for public–private partnerships in mixed-use developments that provide social facilities that are integrated into new commercial and residential developments.

The Treasury explains that theincentive translates into consider-able financial benefits for investors, particularly concerning the refurbishment of existing buildings.

For development projects, the incentive entails a 20% tax deduction in the first year and an annual depreciation of 20% over four years. Concerning new developments, it offers a tax deduction of 20% in the first year and an annual depreciation of 5% for the next 16 years. Hence, the identification of UDZs countrywide clears the way for inner-city developers to benefit from large tax breaks.

The 16 municipalities under the scheme have welcomed the intervention as a significant contributionto the future of South Africa’s city centres.

The incentive boosts efforts by municipalities to develop strategic plans that influence demographic and urban development and secure their long-term tax income by encouraging middle- and upper-class residents to move back to towns and stem the exodus of business to the suburbs. It also improves the attractiveness of city centres to investors. Investment is the key to improving the competitiveness of South Africa’s cities in the world economy.

Networking for success
South Africa’s six metros – City of Cape Town, Ekurhuleni, eThekwini, City of Johannesburg, Nelson Mandela and City of Tshwane – and the three largest local municipalities – Buffalo City, Mangaung and Msunduzi – account for about 70% of the country’s GDP.

The nine cities also receive more than 60% of local governmentexpenditure in South Africa’s 284 municipalities, as they account for the largest concentration of local services and infrastructure.

In 2002, the Department of Provincial and Local Government (DPLG), which looks after local government matters, established the South African Cities Network (SACN) which comprises South African cities and partners andencourages the exchange of inform-ation, experience and best practi-ces on urban development and city management.

The country’s nine largest cities are SACN partners.

SACN CEO Sithole Mbanga says that the DPLG realises that knowledge and capacity-building are critical to propelling South Africa’s cities forward.

“South Africa’s economy, like that of many developed and fast-de-veloping nations, is now essentially an urban economy. This means that it is ever more dependent on whetherthe economies of its large cities work well,” Mbanga explains.

Last year, SACN published the first State of South African Cities report, which took a hard look at the forces that have transformed the country’s cities since 1994, and asked whether cities can expectpositive or negative things to come if the current trends continue.

The five areas of knowledge-sharing that the report covered included whether the cities are productive, inclusive, sustainable and well governed, and analysed complex city growth trends.

The report collected a wealth ofinformation, which stakeholders such as the cities themselves and the DPLG use to inform their policies.

One of the key findings of the report is that cities grew particularly rapidly after apartheid ended, with population increases of about 4% between 1991 and 2001.

It also found that not all of the nine SACN cities are growing at the same rate. Four are growingat 1,4% a year, while some are growing at 8% a year and others aredepopulating at –3% a year.

Mbanga says that current growth trends can be explained by migration but, surprisingly, permanent migration to the cities has been relatively small and is balanced by migration from urban to rural areas.

At the same time, city-to-city migration is increasing.

Certain challenges face cities and rural areas, such as the fact that there has been a steady long-term decline in employment opportunities in the manufacturing sector.

Unemployment rates vary betweenthe cities but, while unemployment is, on average, 3,1% lower in the cities compared to the nationalaverage, some cities reflect unemployment rates far higher than in rural areas.

Some of the challenges facing all South African cities are the provision of services, the management ofinformal settlements, the implement-ation of poverty-reduction strategies, the improvement of public transport, the mitigation of environmental-health risks and investment in bulk infrastructure capacity.

Mbanga says it is important to take into account the fact that local government, in its present form, only came into being after the first democratic local government elections in December 2000.

Hence, he believes that the much-publicised challenges that this sphere of government is facing,including a lack of capacity to deliver new projects, are not being viewed in their proper context. This is because local government in the new South Afria is only starting to find its feet. Since 2000, the legislature has passed three new laws that laid the foundation for local government – the Municipal Demarcation Act, the Municipal Systems Act and the Municipal Structures Act.

These laws do not only support initiatives such as the improved management of cities and urban regeneration, but also promote a dispensation that enables South Africa’s cities to support the needs of rural communities.

Mbanga says that the government’s overarching vision for South Africa’s cities is that they should provide a bridge between the first andsecond economies and function to benefit the country’s urban and rural populations. “Each of the cities is different, and have their own strategies such as urban-regeneration projects in place to ensure their long-term prosperity and economic viability.

“For us, it is critical that the cities should be sustainable and not createa buffer between their own development and that of people living outside their boundaries.

“They play an important part in transforming South Africa, in line with the spirit of the constitution,” he says.

Urban rejuvenation also has a broader focus
Besides the emphasis that is being placed on inner-city regeneration projects, initiatives are also being carried out to effect urban renewal outside the CBDs. Many of the suburbs and townships that historically got the short end of the stick when it came to investment in infrastructure and services are being targeted forregeneration. University of the Witwatersrand School of Architecture and Planning senior lecturer Dr Daniel Irurah says that the Urban Renewal Programme (URP) and the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy, which were launched by President Thabo Mbeki in his State of the Nation address in 2001, are making great strides to tackle poverty and underinvestment in these areas.

The URP has been launched in Alexandra township, in Gauteng, and in Inanda, Ntuzuma and KwaMashu, in Kwazulu-Natal.

Soweto, in Gauteng, Cato Manor, in Kwazulu-Natal and Duncan Village, in the Eastern Cape, are some of the areas that are already benefiting from large-scale inte-grated development initiatives.

Plans are also on the drawing board for other areas, such as Cape Town, where the N2 Gateway project will focus on rejuvenat-ing large parts of the city’s townships.

Osaka also experienced an urban decay after the popping of Japan's bubble economy in 1990. From 1991-94 and 1997-99 Osaka's economy fared the worst of any on the main island of Honshu, Japan. There were many bankruptcies and a marked (and quite visible) rise in homelessness and poverty. To rejuvenate the city the Osaka municipal government engaged in massive Public Works spending. It raised revenue by levying a surcharge of bank profits (I think it is 6%). I think the ZA government needs to focus less of social assistance grants (which only temporarily help the poor) and focus on infrastructure. Handouts do nothing for the poor in the long term, schools, hospitals, and urban centres with jobs because businesses aren't afraid to invest there do.

very good point! invest through development, not handouts! the way to go

Anybody heard anything about that fire in a hotel in Cape Town??

ja, nobody died, many treated for smoke inhalation, but no word on the level of damage

OK you have picked up on it. I created a thread so Im sure Spire will dleete

Well that puts the stereotypes to rest. White guys aren't smaller "down there" after all. No one's ever gone that deep inside me ever. I snagged a pale dude who drilled the hell out of me last night. 22cm, I measured it after. Why don't all guys cum in that size?

my god! where u going to find these boys?

Hirakatashi- Who on earth gave u THAT idea........;)

Please, I just finished eating. Anyways, I have a question, how many buildings has Murray & Roberts constructed?

Hope you are all well :)

I just returned from a holiday... however I have been feeling severely depressed and it's really been scary for me.

I will definitely stick around and continue to do my job, as this is something familiar to me... but please pray for me, guys!!! Thank you so much.

Well, I am glad to see that you guys are talking away :) (about allllll soorts of things haha.)

Well, take care,
-SP!RE

Awe, this really sucks. I've left Durbs, but I miss that guy! I've never had it that good. WTF am I supposed to do? Long distance never works, and I'm sure he's banging some other hot stud as we speak. Bloddy hell.

awwww poor u :( ...thanks for the chat this morning tho!

just can u give me his name and number... :)

Please, I just finished eating. Anyways, I have a question, how many buildings has Murray & Roberts constructed?
I have only .inked them to what I know they ahve built on emporis. Go to South Africa, click companies, find M&R and see whats linked

Well that puts the stereotypes to rest. White guys aren't smaller "down there" after all. No one's ever gone that deep inside me ever. I snagged a pale dude who drilled the hell out of me last night. 22cm, I measured it after. Why don't all guys cum in that size?

.....oh wait there goes my lunch ..............happy to hear u enjoyed ur holiday maybe in a few years time it be my turn to visit ur country and run around wit a measuring tape "boooobs" lol

^^Hahahahahaha!!!
Welcome back SP!RE!

Why thank you, Andy ;)

So... what to talk about today...

topic for the day
South Africas worst buildings
for me it has to be the 70s inspired brutalist structures with exposed agregate that the NP was obsessed with such as johannesburg hospital, the durban train stations (both of them), and dare I say Ponte city?

May I see pics of those buildings you mentioned, please!

The Carlton Centre is the ugliest building I have ever seen.

Prepare for attack by Johannesburg forumers... haha no ;)

I don't think its the ugliest... its quite simple and timeless really. But concrete, boring, brash... etc.... I can see that being a problem for many.

I don't really mind it at all :) Just try to imagine a Joburg without it... :(

the carlton is quitw boring couldnt they sort it our like sandton city building which looks much better now

They need to create a taller building in its place to overshine its ugliness.

I don't think its the ugliest... its quite simple and timeless really.

I don't really mind it at all :) Just try to imagine a Joburg without it... :(

It sounds like you and reality don't really get along.

what a weekend!!! :))

I agree with the carlton being timeless. Its classic SOM architecture designed in the heady days of Brutalism but in its context it works well. It defines Joburg as well as South Africa and is still the tallest building on the continent after 30 years.Its the faceless 70s NP buildings that I hate, Anotherone that comes to mind is the windowless BOSS (beauru of state security) building on the foreshore in Cape town-YUK to say the least but getting a new life as its being converted to appartments

Or the CR Swart Bldg in Bleom.........eeesh.


But the Carlton........thats a different story.....:)

yeah i not a carlton fan, but it is an important building.

But all the ugly concrete monsters are out in force. Will take some pics of the ones around durbs...funny how they are ALL gov buildings....

Can someone in Durbs plse tell me where to go to have some fun? Im flying into Durbs this Saturday morning and will spend one night there. Me and my best mate, and neither of us know the place but wanna go out for a jol. Where to go???? Thanks all...

Let's hear everybody's opinions on Katrina!

I am very sadened by this event, I could actually not believe the images I've seen today, very sad, 80% of New Orleans is under water, and it will take 16 weeks to get it all out, not to mention they'll have to desinfect the city!
I was practically the entire day wacthing FOX News (even though it has a huge conservative bias)!

Can someone in Durbs plse tell me where to go to have some fun? Im flying into Durbs this Saturday morning and will spend one night there. Me and my best mate, and neither of us know the place but wanna go out for a jol. Where to go???? Thanks all...
well im in Dubai and havent lived in Durbs for years but the whole florida road and windermere road areas are the bomb. Loads of cool bars and resturants (a bit like long and loop),try billy the bums (origional one) in windermere and kat man do also in windermere. Dysan will help out with others im sure.
Have fun and tell us your honet opinion on the place from the airport to hotel to jol.
Ciao

Elements Bar in Umhlanga. :)

hey hey hey good time to come mate!!!!

Florida road is happening, from Reform Club's Devilish Cocktail night, to good old Roman Lounge (gay club) next door. Further up the road is Zeta bar...and they are hosting the Soda Tonic/Schnapps CD Launch party with Justin Vee (from sutra and rhino bar),Coco Loco (Pop Art, and Reform) and Agent K (Tilt)

Just down the road from Florida road is Stamford Hill road. There are 5 clubs there, all next door to each other. China White (house) and Panamaroom are the two hottest and classiest clubs in town at the moment. On sat, Panama is hosting a massive go 80's revival party...but its R80 entry. (Thats where i'm going!!! Gonna be awesome). Skyy Bar is normal hip-hop night, and Bardu is having the Inter sessions party (house)

Also on Sat, there are two other huge parties at Tilt (next to the icc...house, rnb and hip hop) and 330 (dance) and Pop Art in Umhlanga is hosting a Jack party (deep house).

hope it helps!

Its quite interesting that there is a picture of New Orleans on the bannner, as we probably all know that place no longer looks like that. My heart aches for the people there!!!

oh my word.... i had quite a shitty experience in Durbs. i must say... i have never been a fan of DUR airport. i just don't like the way it looks. all that funny signage they've got there. and just about everything is branded with that "Kingdom of the Zulu" crap. yuk!! oh well. so off we went. got a hire-car at the airport and drove into town. i quite like the way the place looks when you drive into town on the M4 (?) or something. and then when you take the Victoria Embankment you've got all these very very very cool looking buildings on your left. all very Art Deco-ish and they look so funky. but im very dissappointed with the way the city looks in the North/South Beach areas. i think it looks very run-down and just damn right sad.... :( it was kinda nice hanging out on the beachfront, but it just seems as if the place is really DEAD. i mean, is Joe Kools like the ONLY place people have to go to there? ag nee man. i don't get the place.... i mean, here you've got GREAT weather, a great beach.... but the flats on the beach look so old and so not interesting. where do people invest money in the place..........
next time, i MUST hook up with a local............................................

*YAY* I've been to New Orleans before Katrina!

well i offered...u clearly went to ALL the wrong places! I only go to the beach, if i'm going to the beach! for no other purpose. Guess u didnt drive to the point, umhlanga or berea? that's where all the money is going at the moment. the berea ia basically one huge construction site at the moment. at every corner there is something on the go (over 50 dev on the berea alone, but mainly small scale, 2-3F, but about 10 in the 4-8F range.

Mate u got my number...call me next time :)

Indigenous cultures under attack:

Shock follows virginity testing ban

September 08 2005 at 08:44AM

By Xoliswa Zulu

Virginity testing does not violate children's rights but is a method to prevent the spread of HIV and Aids and other sexually transmitted diseases, cultural groups have said in response to the recently passed Children's Rights Bill, which bans the practice.

Imbumba Yamasiko AseAfrika, a cultural organisation, has planned a march against "discrimination against a tradition that has been around for decades" next week.

Spokesperson James Maphalala said he was shocked to hear of the ban.
"We send our children to get tested because they ask to get tested. We don't force them," he said.

"This is our tradition and it has been around for years. My question to the government is: why is it when Kavady is done, there is no outrage from the government, and nobody's rights are being violated?"

Kavady is an annual Hindu festival during which people go into trances and have their bodies pierced.

Zulu King Goodwill Zwelithini has encouraged virginity testing for men, saying it will help the country fight the scourge of HIV and Aids.

Phindile Mgilane, 16, of Clermont, Durban, said she did not feel violated by the practice.

"I don't think that this violates my rights or anybody else's, for that matter. Doing this will brighten my future and I know that I will not get infected and die from Aids. My parents have not forced me to do this - it is what I want... I'm helping myself and protecting my future."

Nomagugu Ngobese, a virginity tester from Pietermaritzburg, said that virginity testing was a way to see if young women and girls were sexually active.

"This is not a violation. It has actually helped many families find out if their children have been sexually violated or not. This is our
tradition and nobody is being hurt by us doing it."

Karthy Govender, a commissioner of the SA Human Rights Commission, said the commission viewed virginity testing as intrusive and problematic. "It is intrusive and does not have the effect of curbing the spread of HIV/Aids."

The march planned by Imbumba Yamasiko AseAfrika will take place in central Durban on September 17.


The annual reed dance, an occasion on which maidens from all over KwaZulu-Natal converge on King Goodwill Zwelithini's Enyokeni palace to celebrate their virginity, will take place at the weekend. It is expected that Zwelithini will use the event to speak about the impact of the HIV and Aids pandemic.

"I only go to the beach, if i'm going to the beach!" uh yeah suuuure

mo when you go to the beach what do you go there for?

i do go to walk and talent spot too :) but mostly thats what i go for. i dont go to the beach to shop, lunch, or much else, cos i it is the beach!

But there is a cool new place called The Beach Cafe (so original name!!) opening. its on the sand on Battery Beach, under palm trees...that will be cool

I am soooooo happy!!! I'm going to SA in February once again!!!!

I was browsing through the web and look what I've found, this is quite interesting

It's about Boer immigration to Argentina!
Understandably, the end of the war in May 1902 left the Boers “defeated, disgruntled, and bitter.” Their fields were ruined, their livestock gone, and severe droughts also added to the hardship. Many were “unable or unwilling” to start over, and the requirement of taking an oath of allegiance to the British was too much for some. They began, instead, to emigrate from South Africa in three main treks, including
1. a large group to the Chubut Province of Argentina

There's a book about it, it's called "Colonia Boer"
This study is an historical community study, the first research on this group of Boers/Afrikaners who, following the Anglo-Boer War, refused to take the oath of loyalty to the British Crown, and instead emigrated, creating a settlement in Chubut, Argentina. It blends migration theory and ethnicity, documents the conditions which gave rise to the emigration, the names of individuals who migrated, the farms established in Argentina, the bleak living conditions and hardships. It is also the first report of the fact that a number of Blacks emigrated with the settlers

Every day I get more convinced that South Africa and Argentina have so many things in common and have the best bilateral relations when talking about South America-Africa!

"i do go to walk and talent spot too but mostly thats what i go for. i dont go to the beach to shop, lunch, or much else, cos i it is the beach!"

The best time to go to the beach is in the early morning, when the ocean is cool and the air fresh. Then one comes back and one has a breakfast braai whilst watching the waves crash in the morning sun. One of the best feelings in the world. :)

I wouldnt know....never been to the Ocean :(

^^what??? r u serious?

nicky boy! thats gonna change!

^^^^^^^^^ :)

:):):):):) 295days....

"There is no other commodity with such an irresistable fascination as diamonds. People will risk all for them. They will betray, cheat, lie. deceive, and murder. They will forfeit honor, friendship and loyalty. They will suffer privations and danger. For diamonds make dreams a reality. They bring prestige and power. They open doors to presidents and kings. They magically transform poor men into millionaires. Create empires from desert sands and dust."






"During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to the struggle of people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal oppurtunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."






"The call for an African Renaissance is a call to rebellion. We must rebel against the tyrants and dictators, those who seek to corrupt our societies and steal from the people. We must...conduct war against poverty, ignorance, and the backwardness of our children. Surely, there must be politicians and business people, youth and activists, trade unionists, religious leaders, artists and proffesionals from Cape Town to Cairo, from Madagascar to Cape Verde, who are sufficiently enraged by Africa's condition in the world to want to join the mass crusade for Africa's renewal. It is to these that we say, without equivocation, that to be a true African, is to be a rebel in the cause of the Africa Renaissance, whose success in the new century and millenium is one of the great historic challenges of our time."

"We must rebel against the tyrants and dictators, those who seek to corrupt our societies and steal from the people."

Yup.. like the crackpot north of the Limpopo. :bash: Did you see his address at the UN? He is quite a humorous fellow lol!

What yu mean Robert Mugabe?!?!?! What a fu**ing disaster.......GENOCIDAL,RACIST,HYPOCRITAL,DICTATOR. I recently had a friend who just returned from Zim (I told him he was just a plain idiot to go) and he told me first hand that the country was in ruins.......so much potential too.

The fuel crisis has hit Zimbabwe really hard, right?
Is South Africa helping Zimbabwe?

interesting read on spirally buildings! even mentions 88 on field...here called 362 West Street! Was in the Chicago tribune

Spiral tower harks back to Babel

By Blair Kamin
Tribune architecture critic
Published August 14, 2005



Here's a new twist on Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava's proposal for a 2,000-foot-tall twisting tower in Chicago: The idea of a tall building corkscrewing into the sky is as old as time, though Calatrava aspires to take it to new heights.

The concept goes at least as far back as the Tower of Babel mentioned in the Bible. And it has associations both good and bad. Reaching for the sky is perceived as either getting closer to God or an act of hubris. Architects have used it to celebrate a workers' utopia. Yet today they are harnessing its aesthetic power to shape homes in the sky for the superrich.

Whatever it expresses, the twisting tower clearly has struck a chord with the public. Consider the nicknames already given to Calatrava's skyscraper -- the drill bit, the big screw, the twizzler, the birthday candle. The twisting tower also is a hot topic today among architects and architecture students.

As designers explore new ways to break out of the old box, they prize buildings that suggest motion and feeling. Calatrava's design promises to bring to the skyscraper the same Baroque exuberance with which Frank Gehry has infused fresh vitality into the once-staid world of art museums and concert halls.

The twisting tower "is more sensuous. It's more dynamic. It offers an architecture seemingly in motion," said Donna Robertson, dean of the architecture school at the Illinois Institute of Technology, where students have been studying twisting towers for years.

There's a hitch, of course: cost.

An old-fashioned box is simpler and less expensive to build. Ask Chicago architect Helmut Jahn, who designed a handful of spiraling skyscrapers in the 1980s. "They are," he said, "a pain in the neck."

"To some degree, you are taking a shape and deforming it," Jahn explained. "The question is whether the building wants to have that done to it." Calatrava's $500 million hotel and condominium skyscraper, called the Fordham Spire, is expected to cost about 35 percent more than a typical condominium high-rise. As a result, many real-estate experts doubt it will ever be built.

History backs them up. It is far easier to draw such buildings than to construct them. History also shows that, for all Calatrava's design radiates architectural brilliance, it won't be something entirely new under the architectural sun.

- - -

Let's twist again

Calatrava's proposed tower is the latest in a long history of spiral designs

'A tower with its top in the sky'

The history of the spiraling tower begins in Genesis, Chapter 11. The Bible relates the story of a united humanity, speaking the same language, that endeavors to build "a tower with its top in the sky."

The Great Architect in the Sky feels threatened as He looks down at the tower. So He "confounds" the language of the builders, creating a multitude of tongues so they can't understand each other and can't finish their tower. Ever since, the idea of the tall tower and human hubris have been in-separable.

While the Bible doesn't specify what the Tower of Babel looked like, we get a hint from the extraordinary paintings of 16th Century Flemish painter Pieter Bruegel the Elder. He portrayed the tower as a spiraling mountain of masonry -- with a pathway twisting around its tapering exterior. Frank Lloyd Wright would turn this ziggurat upside down in the great white spiral of his Guggenheim Museum in New York.

Baroque break from the past

When Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava began designing the twisting, 2000-foot Fordham Spire, he had to come to terms with Chicago's great skyscraper past.

The challenge of designing in Chicago, he said in an interview before the project was unveiled last month, was comparable to the one Baroque architects faced after the Renaissance triumphs of Bramante and Michelangelo.

The answer, in both cases: Break the rules.


The energetic Baroque churches of Borromini reject the simple combinations of cubes, cylinders and spheres upon which the great buildings of the Renaissance are based.

Similarly, Calatrava's sensuously sculpted sky-scraper departs from the Chicago tradition of the austere, structurally expressive high-rise.

It also may owe something to another iconic Baroque design, the baldacchino, or main altar canopy, at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, by Bernini. The canopy is supported by four huge twisting columns that look like skewed stacks of poker chips.

The Constructivist contribution

No history of the twisting tower would be complete without a mention of Russian architect Vladimir Tatlin's Monument to the Third International, a design as radical as the revolution it was meant to celebrate.

Tatlin was the father of Russian Constructivism, which aimed to produce buildings whose vigorous undecorated form was a direct expression of their materials. His Monument to the Third International, commissioned in 1919 as the headquarters of world Communism, remains one of the great un-

built designs of the 20th Century.

Tatlin proposed two spiraling steel frames that would rise to a height of 400 meters, taller than the Eiffel Tower.

The open frames would reveal three huge rotating buildings: At the top, a cylinder for the mass media that would turn once a day. In the middle, a pyramid for the executive offices of the international Communist movement that would rotate once a month. At the bottom, a cube for the legislature that took a year to make its revolution.

Even though it was never built -- some critics have maintained it was too technologically advanced for its time -- the Monument to the Third International has exerted enormous influence on architects, including those in the United States.

Helmut Jahn's neo-Constructivist towers

In the early 1980s, tired of cartoonish postmodernism, Helmut Jahn and other American architects seized upon Russian Constructivism as a new source of inspiration.

The result, in Jahn's case, was a series of spiraling tower designs, beginning with his proposal for the corporate headquarters of Humana Inc., a large Louisville-based health-benefit company.

The proposal, made for a design competition, consisted of an octagon-shaped tower with a helix-shaped skin that spiraled toward its mast-accented top.

Jahn lost the Humana competition to postmodernist Michael Graves, but he would end up recycling the idea in two towers that were built -- the squat 701 Fourth Avenue South in Minneapolis and the more elegant 362 West Street in Durban, South Africa (left).

Jahn's debt to Russian Constructivism was even more clear in his proposal for a towering helix in Los Angeles, meant to express the "cultural diversity of all the people in the Pacific Rim." A monorail was to ascend the helix and take visitors to platforms filled with exhibits about the nations of the Pacific Rim.

A nice idea, but the plan looked like a skyscraper version of a roller coaster.

Twisting towers today

Because of architects' newfound fondness for motion, either real or implied, twisting and spiraling towers are popping up in some of the most prominent projects on the planet. They are novel, all right. But are they good?

Not necessarily. In late 2003, after a stormy collaboration with ground zero master planner Daniel Libeskind, architect David Childs of the New York office of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill unveiled a plan for a 1,776-foot-tall torquing Freedom Tower (below left) at the former World Trade Center site.

But the twisting quality of the tower didn't disguise its ungainly massiveness. It was something of a relief that the clumsy design was shelved after the New York Police Department raised questions about whether the skyscraper would be vulnerable to a vehicle-delivered bomb.

A much better prospect is Calatrava's Turning Torso Tower in Malmo, Sweden, which rises more than 600 feet to be Scandinavian's tallest building (right). Based on Calatrava's own sculpture of the twisting human torso, the skyscraper consists of nine five-story cubes that twist as the tower rises. The uppermost section rotates 90 degrees from the ground floor. Exposed trusswork helps support the tower.

The muscular, structurally expressive design looks to be an instant landmark, soaring like a modern bell tower. If Chicago finds Calatrava's proposed 2,000-foot tower too tall for its lakefront site, then something like this could well work here.

Last but hardly least is the record-shattering, spiraling tower now under construction in the Persian Gulf playland of Dubai. Adrian Smith of the Chicago office of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill designed the mixed-use tower, which will include superexpensive apartments.

Called the Burj Dubai -- its exact height remains a closely guarded secret lest some competitor beat it for the world's tallest building title -- the skyscraper (left) is expected to rise to roughly 2,300 feet and be finished in late 2008.

That reach for the sky has some critics wondering if the Burj Dubai will turn out to be a modern-day Tower of Babel. They say that Dubai, once an undeveloped dot on the desert map, is taking its economic modernization too high too fast.

Smith, who also designed the Trump International Hotel & Tower in Chicago, knows how to deflect such criticism.

"The tower goes up in steps in a spiraling way," he told BBC News in an interview published last week. "In Islamic architecture, this symbolizes ascending towards the heavens."

For now, the outcome of the Burj Dubai matters less than the fact that it's part of a long chain of spiraling towers. Together, they offer a peek behind the curtain of the creative process.

Architects often tout the originality of their work, but in truth, form grows out of form, whether that form is a pyramid, a cube or a spiral.

The test of a good twisting tower is how architects build upon the precedents of the past -- not mimicking them or stretching them to absurd heights, but synthesizing them into statements that reflect the distinctiveness of their sites, as well as the spirit and technology of their time.

good old 88 on field

Ja, I don't know what Durban would do without that building.

Here are some examples of what the Ushaka Sea World should ever do, if they ever were to make an extension.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/3103/aquariumtunnelfull0js.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Underwater aquariums are the new thing.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2987/558dsc000025lo.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3752/inizizwe2wu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Or maybe they should do something like this for Joburg or Durban's airport.

that last pic is the new dubai mall with the worlds largest indoor aquarium

looks amazing!wow

Nothing new for the Shebeen, hey.....

No

BELHAR SPORTS CENTRE

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/963/badminton29ft.jpg


MEW WAY COMMUNITY CENTRE (10,000)

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/272/boxing15os.jpg

UNKNOWN CENTRE

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7176/unknowncentre1ba.jpg

What is your favorite skyscraper and building

Here is mine.

This one has not even been built but I am still in love with it.

The Baroque Tower

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7006/28uea014al.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

tied with the turning Torso Building in Malmo.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8925/2946torsongradierad12ls.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And my favorite building is this one in Birmingham, England.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/66/selfridges9av.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/167/bullringopening0238cr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

What's yours?

its not a skyscraper or anything but i still think its the most beautiful stadium yet to be built....

http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/7293/a1119hb.jpg

Favourite scraper would be the Erotic Gherkin in London (30 St Mary's Axe I think)..

Favourite building is The Barbican here in Joburg. Dat's my baby.. :D

Guys, I think our FORUM is boring since it has been changes from what it used to be when Gandalf/Enigma what still here. Isee that there's plenty of discussion thread which to me doesn't make much of a sence. We used to see more picture when Gandalf was here and to be honest with you that's exactly what attracted me to this SA Forum, but now it is dissaponting very mcuh. Can you guys please go back to a point whereby every thread had a picture? What happened to your digital cameras. I only honour Dysan for all the efforts his taking. Please post pictures guys. We want to attracte people from Polokwane, Nelspruit, Bloemfontein etc so that they can post their pictures here.

so who has a crush on who in these forums?

I have a crush on datilguy... :tongue4:

:kiss:

I have a crush on datilguy... :tongue4:

:kiss:

yeah doesnt everybody?

hehe.......I doubt Giles does ;)

well I am married with a baby on the way so not much time for crushes from me Im afraid-Unless of course you look like elle? :)

hehe....afraid not. :)


CONGRATS btw!!!!..........and Pule, hows urs doing?

Hmmm... Nicky boy seems to have 'em all hooked! :D

And ps.. congrats SA BOY! Is it gonna be a boy or a girl?

Hello Girls :)

I thought that I will poke my head (no !! the other one) in and see how things are going with all of you.

I have found what I am looking for and Auckland has blown me away - it is way better than I anticipated. There is so much construction and it feels as if the entire city centre is being re-built with massive projects on the drawing boards eg. a new waterfront that will double the size of Auckland's CBD (about the same size as Cape Town's CBD). There's also a couple of skyscrapers under construction right now - taller than 25 floors which is a sight for me ... nothing as tall was ever built in Cape Town while I lived there ;)

I will be moving into my new penthouse in the city centre overlooking the harbour and all the Islands dotted around in the Huaraki Gulf - it is located on the 15th and 16th floor (split level penthouse) with a gym, indoor pool and tennis court BUT best of all, Foodtown is a few metres away (Foodtown is like Woolies but it is open 24 hours a day, every day and the choice is 20 times bigger than in SA). I can't wait ... I will try to get pics as soon as I am settled in.

Auckland is extremely busy (it feels like Jo'burg) and the shopping is out of this World (I only do high street shopping .... my dream come true). I only use public transport here because you can go anywhere that you want to - efficiently and safely - but best of all there are no beggers that harrass you, no street children, no squatters, the streets are clean, no mini-bus taxis ... HALLELUJAH :), no corruption (NZ is the 2nd least corrupt country in the World), no affirmative action (BEE) and no dumb a$$ Mfeketo - hee hee.

Personally I feel like a new person .. my anxiety is gone and I am very laid back now .. not as angry as I was back in SA. I walk alone at night (in the city centre) and I feel safe. I have also become a Starbucks addict (Vanilla Cappucchino - YUM) and a Burger King guzzler (the spare tyre is starting to show ... eeeek).

I have so much to tell you all but I am going to continue my exploration. I hope that you are all well and keep safe !

Hugs and Bubbles.

Well its good to hear from you finally Sydney!! :) Glad to hear you are doing so well in your new city...(besides the accompaning figure ;) ). Hope all continues to go great, and best of luck!

Ps.. Personally, I'd take Starbucks Passion Tea over a Vanilla Cap ANYDAY.......best drink ever invented.....beside Coke of course!

no no no , its vanilla mocha from the bucks is the bomb, with a massive dollop of whipped cream on the top. have one every morning on the way to work at the bucks drive through
Gandalf do your self a favour, go up Queens st to the bucks offiste ANZ and WH Smith and next to it is a place called O'portos (OZ version of Nandos), its the best burgers you will ever taste.
I worked in the AA tower next to the Sky tower and it was a daily trip for me
Sounds like you have chilled and are a happy camper

Gauteng is to invest billions of rands in efforts to improve road infrastructure and the public transport sector.

This was announced today by Gauteng MEC for Transport Ignatius Jacobs after taking a train ride from Soweto to Johannesburg to get first hand experience of what commuters experienced daily when using public transport. Although he did not give the actual amount that will be spent, Jacobs said this would be "in the region of billions of rands."

Jacobs' campaign that included taking a taxi from Sandton to Johannesburg was also aimed at checking the state of readiness of all modes of transport for the Car-Free day on October 20.

Addressing journalists after the trips, Jacobs said he was impressed with the public transport system but there were problems that needed to be addressed.

Regarding the train, he said it was cheap, safe and affordable mode of transport.

"We noted that security needs to be beefed-up to ensure the safety of commuters," he said, adding that CCTV cameras will be installed at train stations.

"We need to come-up with creative solutions to address other challenges that commuters are facing to ensure that our people are afforded affordable and comfortable means of transport," he said.

The MEC also said that proper law enforcement would be implemented to ensure that all unroadworthy vehicles including taxis were removed from the roads.

He also appealed to South Africans to get involved in the improvement of the public transport system as this would contribute to the growth of the economy.

Jacobs urged motorists to support Car-Free Day next Thursday when motorist are encouraged to leave their cars at home and use public transport in a bid to reduce traffic congestion on the roads. - BuaNews

Gandalf!! Welcome back! :) Glad you're having a magnificent time in Auckland. And we would like photos - your shots were truly spectacular!

no affirmative action (BEE) and no dumb a$$ Mfeketo - hee hee


.[/QUOTE]

Actually, there is affirmative action in New Zealand, for the Maoris. And personally I don't see anything wrong it in South Africa, AA or BEE. Hello?! Look what was going on just ten or twenty years ago. Only someone with a twisted and racist mind would be against it. If it wasn't for the fact that during the time the NP government was in power, it was spending its money to kill, terrorize, and psychologically damage the majority of the people in South Africa, maybe it wouldn't be having so many problems as it is having today.

i think it is right to some extend. but i am 15, and done nothing to deserve not getting a job or a university acceptence because of my colour.

Well neither did the Africans, Coloureds, or Asians during apartheid, any body with a drop of common sense knows that whites generally have still benefitted from apartheid even though it doesn't exist anymore, look at the difference in average income. During apartheid,blacks weren't even allowed to own their own businesses, let alone get a good paying job or go to a good school.
If AA is wrong, then I guess it is also wrong to give food or money to homeless people, since that in essence is discriminating against people who are well off, or to give medicine to sick people, since that in essence is disciminatory against healthy people. Anybody who denies that there are major problems facing the blacks are being totally dishonest.
I feel that AA and BEE shoulld not go on forever, but it should until the scars of apartheid are fully healed, most important being the gigantic difference in average income between the races. Until then I think people should be mature about it and stop whining.
I don't allign my self to any political party, I just feel that everybody should have the same chance to succeed in life, no matter who the hell they are. To say otherwise is sheer wickedness.

yeah doesnt everybody?

Are you gay or bi?

And ENIGMA, sooo glad to hear from you!!! I was worried sick about you!

I am so glad you are feeling like a new person! How exciting! :) Toronto's kinda like that for me :)

HOWEVER I must say that the Green Tea frappuccino is the best from Starbucks!!! yummm

Well AA and BEE have their place.....but Pieter, you say everyone should have the same chance to succeed in life, However, discrimination against people because of their color (in this specific instance-white), is not equal oppurtunity. Regardless of severe and terrible happenings in the past, why should discrimination continue to take place under the guise of "evening out the playing field".....its not right, no matter which way or for what reason you look at it. Of course apartheid was a terrible horrid thing. And whites HUGELY benefitted from apartheid at the time, but now, its not the case. Anyone who turns down Grant, for a job of his qualifications (in the future) or a College admission, is NO BETTER than the NP imperialists. There is a fine line between helping those in need, and skyrocketing those in need to the top at the cost and detrimant of others.

I find it simply hard to believe that Grant is not going to get a job or get in to a university simply because he's white, that's stupid, considering the fact most if all not all the universities are run by white people. He is just speaking from what he thinks will happen and not from actual experience. Stop trying to play victim.

As I recall, you dont go to a South African University, so you're speculating as well no? :)

I find it simply hard to believe that Grant is not going to get a job or get in to a university simply because he's white, that's stupid, considering the fact most if all not all the universities are run by white people. He is just speaking from what he thinks will happen and not from actual experience. Stop trying to play victim.
"most of the universities are run by whites", when was the last time you were at a place of higher learning in SA? they are all black run (not that Im choosing colour) but they are deffinatly not White run

"I feel that AA and BEE shoulld not go on forever, but it should until the scars of apartheid are fully healed, most important being the gigantic difference in average income. Until then I think people should be mature about it and stop whining."
Mate do you evben know what you are talking about? how long is till the scars heal-100 years, 200 years.
look at the states, its been 200 years since slavery and the black population still hasent recovered or forgotton the scars
Dont come and talk shit here if you dont know your facts, we lived through Arpartheit and have seen its effects , where have you been for the past 20 years , if you are even that old

if you look at UCT, 70% of res is reserved for non whites. this i can say is ok to an extent as they are the ones who live in the sometimes very poor conditions. but i think 70% is a bit high. and if this is anything to go by, i dont want to know what percentage is that they have to accept for the university itself. i think we should slow this topic down, it almost always causes arguements.

Mate do you evben know what you are talking about? how long is till the scars heal-100 years, 200 years.
look at the states, its been 200 years since slavery and the black population still hasent recovered or forgotton the scars
Dont come and talk shit here if you dont know your facts, we lived through Arpartheit and have seen its effects , where have you been for the past 20 years , if you are even that old[/QUOTE]


Actually, Einstein, its been 142 after the Emancipation Proclamation, and only 41 years after the legal segregation of Jim Crow Laws, and the reason why many of them have not forgotten about it is because many of them have lived through it. For someone to sit there in denial of the fact that some people naturally have it better than others since day one is simply ridiculous, especially in an African country. And I don't think it really matters that 70% of UCT is reserved for nonwhites, only 19% of Cape Town's population is white anyways,and it's alot better than the days when 100% of it was reserved for whites only. Justice Rocks! Lol. Anyways I think its right for blacks to finally reep the benefits from a country whose labor they have helped it to be.

^^^
All this talk.......sounds like NEW imperialism to me.

You have no clue what its like for South Africans. You are in no position tell how it should be done eh mate? Its the fact that seats or positions have to be "reserved". Sounds socialistic and NOT free and equal. The apartheid government was NOT free and equal (of course it did not claim to be). Wether or not it is right to make up for past injustices is not at stake. But how can you claim that "reserving" aspects (units, seats, positions etc.) is equal and fair, when it is clearly not, by theory OR definition OR logic.

How long will it continue?.............the world is full of cynical bastards who wont let go. 200 years from now, we will still be hearing about this situation.

wow sue me for a few years difference. Who is sitting in denial wiseass? Do you work? are you a middle class white male in SA? if so then tell me how you feel and dont say cos the whites had it so good now they must have it so bad? thats horse shit logic.
No one agrees more than me how bad it was, in fact I actually grew up in Arpartheit , did you? Neverthe less I was fortunate enough to have parents who saw the value in sending me to a multi racial school from class 1 and tought me strong liberal values so dont prech about tolerance etc.
No matter what the past did should the current genreation of whites, or even colours and indians be excluded and discriminated against for the belefit of the black population? what is it a case of an eye for an eye?
Anyway in a true democtracy which I am fortunate to live in ,in Australia colour plays no part or at least it shouldent and there are no quotas and % of enrolements allocated to people dependant on the colour of their skin.
Grow up and see the world through bigot less glasses

i am south african, i attend a south africa university....don't any of u dare compare the situation today to apartheid as they are light years away....UCT has reached an excellent balance and mix of students, please don't bullshit me about "true" democracy...my parents lived through apartheid, the opportunities available today to those who had nothing previously are amazing.....remember80% of our country is non white...80% of our country was neglected in the most inhumane form for decades...if you are going to complain about AA then take a trip to the apartheid museum...this country is not perfect but it has made inroads....fair and logic??? UCT has lotsa white and lotsa blacks and we are mostly happy....datilguy from what i read you are against AA, i never lived through apartheid, i never witnessed m family and friends being killed around me..correct injustices of the past?? it was more than a dam injustice...!!!
thats all i have to say...

so do we peanalize the current genration to appese the past? AA does not work end of story, how can you have a fair and just society but exclude someone because of thier skin colour,(black or white). Its reverse apartheit no matter how much spin is put on it. I hear the term equal with prejiduce. A blatent contradiction as it descriminates and is a blated kick in teh face to those who fought for equallity.
As for quotas where do you draw the line? 4 blacks in the team followed by 1 indian and half a coloured, then its 2 germans and 3 hotentots, follwed by the gay arab. I mean setting limits or quotas is a joke.

so do we peanalize the current genration to appese the past? AA does not work end of story, how can you have a fair and just society but exclude someone because of thier skin colour,(black or white). Its reverse apartheit no matter how much spin is put on it. I hear the term equal with prejiduce. A blatent contradiction as it descriminates and is a blated kick in teh face to those who fought for equallity.
As for quotas where do you draw the line? 4 blacks in the team followed by 1 indian and half a coloured, then its 2 germans and 3 hotentots, follwed by the gay arab. I mean setting limits or quotas is a joke.

if you think AAcomes even close to correct the past then you certainly have no clue about south africas history...

this is going to get out of hand. im sorry i posted anything....

this is going to get out of hand. im sorry i posted anything....


you have every right to be afraid of not being able to attend university, my advice, do well at school, that will secure ur place at UCT if you're interested in a commerce degree....which is gernally tougher...for medicine its the toughest as there are limited places and whether or not ou get 7 or 10 A's it still wont assure you a place in the medicine class...

yeah. thanks man.

" How long is till the scars heal-100 years, 200 years.



Until the huge gap in average income between the races is closed. That is one of the main reasons why South Africa is still considered a DEVELOPING country and NOT a First World Country.

^^ It is also the reason for high levels of crime. When half the population has no skills because a government deliberately chooses to under-educate them, how can anyone be surprised when the outcome is higher levels of crime?
Train the un-skilled so they can find work and watch the crime rate fall.

Until the huge gap in average income between the races is closed. That is one of the main reasons why South Africa is still considered a DEVELOPING country and NOT a First World Country.

Uhuh... it isn't seen as a first world country at this point.. it could be awhile, but there are many great things happening to close this gap... however, it's a complicated situation.

Until the huge gap in average income between the races is closed. That is one of the main reasons why South Africa is still considered a DEVELOPING country and NOT a First World Country.
so based on your logic the US should have AA for a long time as the gap in income belween African-Americans and whites is growing annually.
Funny then how its been challanged in the Supreme court and found to be discrimintory and droped by most if not all states.
What amazes me about all you youngsters is that you have no idea what you are talking about. If you are at uni that means you were like 8 when apartheit ended so what the fuck do you know about living through it.
I grew up in the 70s and had the worst of it, bomb blasts all the time and shit like that ,you kids know nothing so dont preach about how bad it was and how wonderfull AA s, You are very open minded left wing now you are at uni cos you think you can change the world and correct all the mistakes of the past.
Reality check sunshine, come and tell us about life when as a white male you cant get a job with your uni degree and magnum cum lauda with 10 distiucinctions from UCT because AA forced the company to hire someone who has barely passed from umtata or fort harre uni in stead the best candidate on merit.
Why do you think there is a massive brain drain of white males from SA to oz/canada/nz etc. Its not cos they are rasist or are scared of crime and grime. Its cos they are scared of being margenalised economiocally.
I know Im one of them

Uh huh...Mo Rush, as a white male who HAS been turned down for a uni spot SIMPLY because of my color......I might have an inkling of what I'm talking about. I NEVER said the current situation was on par with Apartheid, however, no matter what reasons you tell yourself its right.....its still WRONG, (even in 21st Century South Africa) to discriminate against color. Doesnt matter if your white, black, blue, brown, colored, or whatever.......

AA and BEE are such difficult topics, and there isn't a black or white answer (no pun intended). On the one hand, I agree with some that it is reverse discrimination. At a white man, you have zero chances against a black woman, even if that woman isn't as qualified or experienced as you are. And there have been many instances where white people haven't progressed or received a job position just because of their skin colour.

On the other hand, I agree with others that we NEED AA and BEE in this country because we DO need to redress the injustices of our past. There is a huge base of unskilled people in this country, who need to be shoved into the economy so that they can at the very least produce offspring who are beneficial to the economy. If we don't do this, we face the danger of leaving a large part of the population at the bottom of the pit. We will end up with a downward spiral of unqualified people producing an unproductive economy.

What I think needs to be done is firstly, to massively improve our education system at primary, secondary and tertiary level. All three levels, with the exception of private schools and certain univiersities, are generally crap. There needs to be a greater harmonisation between secondary and tertiary level, and we need to literally shove people into university and equip them with skills - entrepreneurship and IT should be particularly emphasised.

Once you have a strong base of skilled people, AA and BEE should be dropped, and you should be assessed on your qualifications only. Until that happens though, I believe that quotas might be the best way. Sure it might produce incompentence in certain sectors, but look at how it has enriched South Africa? We now have a far larger middle class because of people have been pushed into economically productive positions. And it's had positives spin offs for our economy - they'll produce offspring who will get good private school education, and so on and so forth.

So whilst I stand to lose from BEE and AA (I'm lucky in that I fill the white male quota at my store), I think perhaps it is necessary to keep it in place, because it's a mechanism that can be used to expand participation of people in our economy. The fact is that blacks are still marginalised in our economy, and we need to shove em in to become more productive.

And yes it HAS driven people like SA BOY and ENIGMA out, and it will likely drive me out as well, but to a great many more people, it gives them opportunities that have never been available to them, and would likely not be available to them if they aren't handed to them on a silver platter.

In the context of South Africa's state of affairs today, what other viable solutions are there? It IS unfair to many people, but we've just come out of three centuries of inequality... It's not going to change overnight.

^^^

Well said.

offically Apartheit was from 1949( year nats came to power)- to 1994 and the elections. What happened before is irrelevant as every country on earth has suffed injustice in the 1800's just think slavery, the US lynching etc etc . I totally disagree with AA and BEE,Its abused and will continue to enrich a small segment of the black population, just look at the corrucption already with ex ANC heavyweights who get preferential treatment under AA and BEE. No way Tokyo and anand sighn are disadvantaged. they are multi millionairs and have BEE and AA to thank.
when is enough ehough? what are the KPIs to determin when things can be equal.
No one can convince me that in an equal society there is descrimination based on skin colour. Its wrong end of story.

While this is a somewhat long post, this discussion must occur in the context of FACTS, not uninformed or unsubstantiated opinion. Let's look at undisputable facts:

1. There's a BIG difference between SA and the US.

1.1. Affirmative Action is explicitly sanctioned in our constitution. Not so in the US. Nonetheless, it stood up to early court challenges in the US and was deemed constitutional there because FAIR discrimination (in response to a historical legacy of discriminatory practices and policies) is a universally recognised notion. Mere discrimination is not, in itself, unlawful or unfair. There's a difference between equality (treat everyone exactly the same all the time) and equity (treat everyone fairly; even if it means fairly discriminating against some). Because of the legacy of apartheid, we can't immediately have equality in the employment. Until then, we need to practice equity (fair discrimination, until historical anomalies are eradicated).

1.2. In the US blacks are a minority group, in SA its the opposite. As such, the AA policies of the two countries cannot be judiciously compared.

1.3. Neither can the dropping of AA in some states in the US be used as a guide or precedent for SA. We must remember that AA has been around in the US for almost 40 years. In some cases it has outlived its usefulness and achieved its purpose. In SA, AA as a dedicated piece of legislative policy in the employment context, relatively speaking, is only in its infancy (The Employment Equity Act, which governs AA in SA, was only passed in 1998 and really only began to have an impact on hiring policies from late 1999-2000 onwards). It's premature to call for its end.

1.4. Regardless of the maturity of AA in the US, little faith can be placed in the judgements of the US Supreme Court (on this issue, anyway) as it's well known the court is packed with conservatives. It's therefore not necessarily a surprise that they rejected AA in certain contexts. In the US, Supreme Court appointments are political appointments at the discretion of the President and do not necessarily reflect the wisdom of the finest judicial minds in that country. The spectacle over the latest proposed Supreme Court appointment (a relative unknown who was handpicked by neo-conservative Bush because she is apparently pro-life and attends Church diligently) as well as the recent contraversial selection of the conservative SC Chief Justice bear testimony to the open divide and disatisfaction in the US over the SC appointments). That court has lost a lot of respect and credibility in recent times and placing undue faith in its judgements in the context of this issue is not necessarily a wise idea.

2. So why is AA being dropped in many states of the US? Two reasons:
2.1. It's achieved its objectives in some states (and contexts) and merits being dropped; and
2.2. The US is being overrun by neo-conservatives. The US presidential election and the resurrection of the conservative (religious) right in that country results bear testimony to that. Similarly, placing any value in the wisdom or actions of the legislators of those states is not wise as some might be motivated by their right-wing ideologies vs. furthering a legitimate objective.

3. AA is necessary in SA, whether anyone likes it or not, because without AA, companies (more particuarly, whomever controls them) are more likely to 'look out' for their 'own kind'. As the SA economy is still largely controlled by whites, many white-controlled companies would possibly prioritise unqualified white candidates over their more qualified non-white counterparts. That's what happenned during the apartheid and pre-apartheid eras and there's nothing to say that the same won't happen now IF IT'S LEFT UP TO THE PERSONAL CHOICE OR POLICY OF THE RECRUITER. If you don't force companies to employ people of colour they might continue looking our for their own.

So, are whites in SA, particularly in the employment sphere reallly suffering as a result of AA policies? Let's look at STATISTICAL FACTS, as contained in the following report:

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White management increases
Jun 01 2005 05:45:17:473PM
By: Donwald Pressly

Cape Town - The number of South African whites in top management in business and government rose from 74.9% in 2001 to 76.3% in 2003 - an increase of 1.4%, according to a Commission for Employment Equity annual report presented to parliament's labour portfolio committee on Tuesday.
And, significantly, the rise in white numbers at this level - which is not reflected in other levels of service - is owing to the rise in the number of white males from holding 65.7% of top management posts in 2001 to 67.5% in 2003.

The tally of white females in the corresponding time actually dropped from from 9.2% to 8.8%.

At the same time blacks - coloureds, African blacks and Indians - accounted for 23.8% in 2003, down from 25.1% in 2001.

This is attributed to a large drop in the number of coloureds in top management - from 13.2% to 4%.

The number of African blacks rose in this time from 8% to just short of 15%.

The number of females rose from 11.9% to 14.1% in top management - with males dropping from 88.1% to 86%.

African males accounted for 11.2% - an increase of 4.8% from 6.4%.

The number of black African females rose from 1.6% to 2.1%.

While the number of coloured females rose from 0.6% to 0.9% the number of coloured males dropped from 12.6% to 3.1% - a drop of 9.5%.

The number of Indian males rose from 3.4% to 4.2% while the number of Indian females rose from 0.5% to 0.7%.

In the senior management corps blacks accounted for 19.1% in 2001 but this is up significantly from 8.2% in 2003.

Whites dropped from 80,9% to 72.7% in this time. Africans accounted for 9.8%, rising to 14.2%.

The number of females rose from 17.7% in senior management to 22.3%. The number of white males dropped from 65.7% to 57.8% - or minus 7.9%.

In another category of "professionally qualified" blacks dropped from 50.2% to 50%.

White representation remained fairly constant with white females increasing very marginally - although there was a drop of white males in this category from 35.1% to 34.3% in this time.

The figures show a high turnover of whites in particular with 877 white males and 131 white females in top management having their employment terminated in 2003 with a total of 1 327 people reported to be in top management.

White males made up 66% of those having their employment terminated.

However, this is offset by the fact that 52% of those promoted to top management in this time were white - at 52% - or 689 people.

The report indicates that blacks constitute 87.4% of the economically active population and whites 12.6% or 2,064,062.

Black Africans make up 73.1% or 11,956,854, coloureds 1,771,473 or 10,8%, Indians 568,992 or 3.5%.

The figures were drawn from employment equity reports of employers.

It found, however, that most employers were not deliberately uninterested in employment equity "but are rather struggling with understanding and implement aspects of this subject."

http://www.finance24.com/articles/default/display_article.asp?ArticleID=1518-1786_1714016

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4. So, were mistakes made in early implentation of AA policies? Undoubtedly!
Are AA polcies in SA still undergoing refinement? Yes. Previously, many blacks, regardless of origin (or skill!), were being given priority ahead of other race groups. Is this position now changing? Yes. Proof:

--------------------
'Foreign blacks don't count'
Sep 06 2005 10:31:05:310PM

Cape Town - Foreign black persons are not included in South African employers' employment equity numerical goals, says Labour Minister Membathisi Mdladlana.
The Freedom Front Plus' Frik van Heerden, a member of the National Council of Provinces had asked if black persons from other African countries were defined as "quota personnel or affirmative action (AA) personnel" as defined in the Employment Equity Act, Act 55 of 1998, in public enterprises and private business.

The minister said: "Foreign black persons from anywhere in the world cannot be included in any employer's Employment Equity numerical goals."

In the preamble of the Employment Equity Act it is "recognised that as a result of apartheid and other discriminatory laws and practices, there are disparities in employment, occupation and income within the national labour market and that those disparities create such pronounced disadvantages for certain categories of people that they cannot be redressed simply by repealing discriminatory laws.

Mdladlana said: "Therefore in order to eliminate unfair discrimination and achieve a diverse workforce broadly representative of our people - South Africans - the Employment Equity legislation was enacted by Parliament.

"It is therefore clear that the intention in enacting the Act is to address and remedy disadvantage suffered as a result of apartheid discrimination.

"Foreign black employees would not have been subjected to this.

"However, an employer cannot discriminate against them by excluding them from employment merely on the grounds of their lack of South African citizenship, where they have a valid work permit and are legally entitled to be in the country."

http://www.finance24.com/articles/business/display_article.asp?Nav=ns&lvl2=buss&ArticleID=1518-1786_1765488

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5. What about non-employment contexts? Why are black candidates in academia being given preference, despite having lower marks etc? Well, aside from the obvious reason (poor infrastructure in schools translate to poor academic performances, therefore such candidates cannot be excluded in favour of their affluent counterparts who enjoyed relatively privileged educations and can be expected to produce better academic results), black graduates are also more likely to remain in the country and work in rural areas (where service delivery is desperately needed).

The govt subsidises every university graduate in the country, regardless of educational discipline (aside, perhaps, for private tertiary institutions). White (and affluent Indo-Asian) graduates are more likely to emigrate from SA, and in the process, take the fruits of their subsidised education out of the country. In this context, it makes economic and strategic sense to prioritise the education of individuals who are likely to remain in the country as they will continue to serve their country, in contrast to those who are prepared to use and abuse the system, and then abandon it.

6. How is SA benefiting from AA? Our economy, for one is booming, partly as a result of AA. SA today has 3 million more middle class individuals than it did prior to 1994. Many of these individuals owe their new-found economic status to AA policies. These individuals are ploughing their new-found wealth into the SA economy, thereby enriching corporate SA. And who controls most of corportate SA? Whites. As many economic experts have remarked, economically speaking, most whites in SA have never had it as good as today.

sa has never had it so good due to global record low intrest rates, a strong reseoce based economy and a critical mass of middle calss population.,
How can a black majority in a black governed counrty still play victim and expect any appointemnt (academic, sporting, political) to be based on nothing but merit.Why should the argument " Well, aside from the obvious reason (poor infrastructure in schools translate to poor academic performances, therefore such candidates cannot be excluded in favour of their affluent counterparts who enjoyed relatively privileged educations), " continue to be used. What you are saying is that because a candident had it hard that an excuse to bring the entire level of merit down to suit the lowest candidet.
I love SA , always have but I dont agree with the political decitions being made at the detriment of meritly superior people (black or white). Whats happeing is that a better qualified person, rejected due to AA with move to oz and contrivblte to that society at the detriment of SA.
Also the argument that the new black middle class will stay rural is a crock as there are major problems with rural ciommunitioes in SA at the momnet due to massive urbinisation.

I don't want to get into a flaming war with you (or anyone else) because its not worth my time and effort. I will, however, correct you (again) on a few misconceptions you're operating on:

1. SA's booming economy is not JUST due to the factors that you've listed. If that were the case, EVERY economy in the world would be booming as they all are being exposed to the same extraneous factors. SA's boom is due, mostly, to sound macro-economic governance. The country is in its longest sustained growth period in history, something the inefficient and morally corrupt apartheid government never managed to do.

2. The post-apartheid government can legitimately still play "victim" for the next short period because all the inequities of apartheid cannot (and could not) be eradicated in just 10 years. They inherited that system because of the apartheid government. Wouldn't you play victim if you were only given 10 years to eradicate the mess created by someone else over 300+ years??

Put in perspective, if the post-aprtheid government attempted to eradicate poverty in the last 10 years at the expense of everything else (which, in your view, seemingly would prevent them from playing "victim"), the whole economy would have been thrown into turmoil. In another 10-15 years from now, of course, they would have had 20-25 years to eradicate poverty and they ARE going to have trouble still playing "victim". Of course, one cannot simply be accused of playing "victim" without also examining their achievements over the same period. An objective look at FACTS will determine this:

-------------------
Since 1994, the government has channelled substantial resources into social programmes and services, with varying degrees of success.

Households with access to clean water: 85% in 2001, 80% in 1996
Households using electricity for lighting: 69.7% in 2001, 57.6% in 1996
Households in formal housing: 63.8% in 2001, 57.5% in 1996
Households with chemical or flush toilets: 51.9% in 2001, 50.5% in 1996
Pupil-teacher ratio: 38:1 in 2003, 43:1 in 1994
People who have completed grade 12 schooling: 20.4% in 2001, 16.3% in 1996
People with access to electricity: 70% in 2003, 32% in 1994
Social grants: 6.8 million people (R34.8 billion) in [[2003

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_South_Africa

---------------------

"What you are saying is that because a candident had it hard that an excuse to bring the entire level of merit down to suit the lowest candidet."

You know, I've read, and reads-read my post and can't see myself saying that anywhere! Don't put words in my mouth that are apparently a reflection of YOUR state of mind. AA has problems but its definitely better than members of "the old boys club" prioritising (the best) jobs only for those who belong to the inner circle. Argue with the FACTS (stats) I put forward. I didn't make that up. It's funny though: apartheid was a (formal) system of AA for WHITES over 48 years (excluding informal forms of AA before then). Hardly any whites complained then. Now that a system is working against them (to bring about equity) it's seemingly an apt time to scream for equality and complain about how unfair the AA system is. Put yourself in the shoe of the average coloured or Indo-Asian person: they weren't white enough during apartheid and are not black enough now. They, at least, have good reason to complain because neither system is benefiting them on a broad scale (aside from a few specialised and highly skilled positions where coloureds and Indo-asians are benefiting if no African candidate exists or both were equally disadvantaged and the coloured or Indo-Asian is deemed preferable (but to qualify that, even though 'black' denotes African, Coloured and Indian in the Employment Equity Act, the latter two groups are chosen only as a last resort).

By the way, let's also not forget, AA in SA identifies WHITE females as a "previously disadvantaged group". There have been many cases brought before the CCMA by black male candidates who lost out jobs to their WHITE female counterparts. The CCMA have almost always ruled in favour of the white female candidates if such biases were proven to have existed (ie, females in that profession were never given preference but males were, black or white). I don't think these white women will claim AA is working against them. Of course, equally qualified white female vs. black female is problably going to result in a loss for white female as the former were more historically disadvantaged.

"Whats happeing is that a better qualified person, rejected due to AA with move to oz and contrivblte to that society at the detriment of SA."

True, to some extent, but as the report above clearly shows, the no. of whites (male, in particular) who hold senior positions in SA has INCREASED. How do you explain that???? I didn't make that up.

"Also the argument that the new black middle class will stay rural is a crock as there are major problems with rural ciommunitioes in SA at the momnet due to massive urbinisation."

Firstly, it's not about whether the emerging middle class will remain rural. They WON'T!! The money is the cities and that's where they're staying and playing. The issue that I raised was not about urbanisation; it was about WHO ARE MORE PREPARED TO WORK IN RURAL AREAS AND LESS LIKELY TO EMIGRATE FROM SA. Urbanisation is a separate issue and will continue regardless of the need to provide services in rural areas. Objectively verifiable stats will show it's non-white candidates who are more willing to relocate to rural areas and stay long-term in SA (although that trend will possibly change over time too. For now, though, it still holds true).

In short, you haven't refuted ANY facts with objectively verifiable facts of your own. As I stated, I don't want to get into a war of words over this issue (with you or anyone else for that matter) as it's not worth any of our times or efforts :bash: so this will be my LAST POST on this issue. However, I will re-state: discussions on any issue must be based on (objectively verifiable) informed facts, not purely on personal (and seemingly uninformed) opinion.

Peace. :cheers: :)

Thank you, RomanSA. You're factual information is a breath of fresh air in a field of bullshit arguments and opinions.

i will restate my view...if you view AA as this major injustice and you cannot see it in its context, then you simply don't know south africa's history beyond what you think happened....excellent points made romanSA,

I am glad to see that everybody is doing well and still so full of enthusiasm. I didn't mean to start a war regarding AA & BEE - it is just my point of view and I don't agree with the way that the system is being abused (eg. black ELITE empowerment), or how whites, coloureds and Indians are being side-lined - there will never be unity under such a system. Enough of that topic and we are all entitled to our own opinions. Besides, it is a such a pleasure to not hear about race issues all day and everyday.

Thanks for all the tips regarding Starbucks etc, I am going to try a Passion tea today ... the choice of products here in AKL is incredible eg. in the supermarkets you have an entire aisle of different types of breads and I once counted 26 different types of olives .. even M & M's (my fave sweets) .. there is 5 different kinds.

I walk into a shop and I want everything - I need to make a wack of money here. I also went to The Auckland Museum (Auckland Domain .. wow, what a park !) and fell in love with Maori Art (very celtic) and currently I am doing alot of research into Maori customs which is extremely interesting. I have so much news that I don't know where to begin ... I am also moving into my new penthouse on Friday (which is going to be a hilarious experience .. I will be using a cab to move HA HA) and I am meeting with AUT (Auckland University of Technology) tomorrow so that I can continue studying - all the big Varsities are in the city centre and upper Queen Street is full of students, it is amazing.

Okay guys (I am using an internet cafe and I have loads of emails to reply to) - keep chilled and like I said before, I didn't mean to start a war here .. let's forget it and concentrate on the good things in life (the last thing I want to discuss is SA politics) .... cheers Mates !

ahhh a positive S.A. comment from ENIGMA- you really ARE refreshed ;) J/K... yes, let's focus on the positive :)

-SP!RE

----------------------------------

got my PM message, Mo Rush?

-SP!RE

You will LOVE Passion Tea...........*fruity*. And M & Ms.........only 5 different kinds?.........shame to live in New Zealand.....LOL

Thank you, RomanSA. You're factual information is a breath of fresh air in a field of bullshit arguments and opinions.
oh so now we must all think the same and have the same opinion. gret advertisment for democracy and freedome of spech.
Im entitlerd to my opinion, its healthy and I pray to god I dont become a whining libral left wing like you. Thank god I have lived in many countries and seen and experienced the real world instead of chewing down on government propaganda.
I will never agree that AA works in an EQUAL DEMOCRACY, its simpley a contradition in terms no matter how you spin it. Forget the past people and look to the future. Maybe that why SA will always be seen as semi third world?
Ilove SA , I heavely invest in SA, it will always be home, never stoped supporting the boks and go home once a year no matter where i live BUT I cannot support the idea of unequal equals.
You guys need to read orwells Animal farm as I see the pigs in all of you who are MORE EQUAL than other animals and therefore get to live in the framers house.
This thread is going no ware and we are not going to change our opinions so lets agree to disagree

WELL DONE ALL OF YOU!!!!!

You have all proven how big your cocks are and i'm mighty impressed....next the pissing contest!

I pray to god I dont become a whining libral left wing like you. Thank god I have lived in many countries and seen and experienced the real world instead of chewing down on government propaganda.
I will never agree that AA works in an EQUAL DEMOCRACY, its simpley a contradition in terms no matter how you spin it. Forget the past people and look to the future. Maybe that why SA will always be seen as semi third world?
Ilove SA , I heavely invest in SA, it will always be home, never stoped supporting the boks and go home once a year no matter where i live BUT I cannot support the idea of unequal equals.
You guys need to read orwells Animal farm as I see the pigs in all of you who are MORE EQUAL than other animals and therefore get to live in the framers house.
This thread is going no ware and we are not going to change our opinions so lets agree to disagree

It's easy for you to say forget the past, your life was not ruined by apartheid. FYI,I am not a whining left wing liberal, or anything like that. Like I previously stated, I am not ideologically married to any type of political ideology, I just feel that everyone should be given a chance to succeed in life, no matter what. Realistically speaking, it seems you are the one who has done more of the whining than me. You heartily criticize AA, yet you offer no better solutions that will benefit everybody and help erase the problems that apartheid DELIBERATELY created. Luckily for you, you can just get up and leave South Africa, if you don't like it, unlike the millions of unemployed South Africans, most of whom are black, who have been trapped, both during and after apartheid.
You sit there and pretend that under the guise of living in a "colorblind" society everything is just peachy, when in reality it in a way serves as a reason for some people to justify ignoring the horrendous challenges and problems that many of these people have went and many continue go through, and in the long run usually just benefits people like yourself. If people only stopped thinking about themselves and put themselves in the shoes of others, maybe there wouldn't be so much misunderstanding, time wasted, feelings hurt, and problems unsolved.
However, I do agree with you on one thing, and that is we should change the subject, all this fascist drivel has been giving me a headache.

Oh, yeah, by the way, I did read "Animal Farm" , very lovely book. :) We all could learn something from it.

And maybe you should read or watch the movie "A Dry White Season" to understand how "great" it was to be a black person in South Africa 20 years ago.

-----------------------------------------

And maybe you should read or watch the movie "A Dry White Season" to understand how "great" it was to be a black person in South Africa 20 years ago.
I have mate and believ me I know what it was like to be a black person in SA 20 years ago, As I said before I went to a multi racial school 20 years ago and my best friends were black and indian, I dident know the difference cos I was a kid , and only realised in early teens that something was ammis in the system.
I sympathise and empathjise with the majority that was opressed and marjanalised in the past and to be honest I dont know what a fair solution is, all I know is that in a true and pure form of democracy you cant discriminate no matter what the historial reasons and justifications are.
There for SA is not a pure and liberal democracy

Guys, I think we do not need this arguement. IF you would have browsed through www.sagoodnew.co.za last week, you would have seen an article whebry they were talking about BEE and all. FYI, BEE is left with a max of 5 years from now and fucken racist white people of this country must realize that our government doesn't exclude them but just let them to share the wealth of the country with all of us. I used to work for the Australian company in Rivonia, beleive you me there were more whites than Africans who were hired there. Plenty of whites used to, and they still leave, the company for greener pastures within the same South Africa. Racist white people wants to keep wealth to themselves, but we all have to share it. I say that those who are against the BEE and AA they must leave us alone and go to Europe.

Racist is still there and now its get pushed differently by most companies in South Africa, plenty of our blac brothers and sisters are emplyed just to increase the balc numbers in the company more than working. There are not given anyhing to work on, but their white counterparts get more experience than them. Racist whites are the puppets of the "Free Masons' and their aim is to demolarize blacks and believe you me that won't work. I'm not hating whites, but the RACIST ones I say leave Africa and go to Europe or Australia. Our black goverment managed to do a lot in just 10 years, YES, they do have their short falls, but they have done a lot for all of us.

So if someone doesnt agree with AA they are racest? why is that always the answer to anyone who disagrees with ANC policy. Believe me Im not racest, but I dont agree with AA and dont beleve that appointments should be on anthing else by merit. I was not part of apartheit, dident support it and had a very liberal european upbringing so now I must leave the country. Sound like Zim part II comming?
Like I said I dont know what the answer is to rebalance the wealth, skills and equality but its not by descriminatiog against any group ,race or sex.
The question is no one can tell us how long the descrimination will last for ,nor not when but If it will ever end.

Hey people, Am I allowed to participate here too? :D

So if someone doesnt agree with AA they are racest? why is that always the answer to anyone who disagrees with ANC policy. Believe me Im not racest, but I dont agree with AA and dont beleve that appointments should be on anthing else by merit. I was not part of apartheit, dident support it and had a very liberal european upbringing so now I must leave the country. Sound like Zim part II comming?

Like I said I dont know what the answer is to rebalance the wealth, skills and equality but its not by descriminatiog against any group ,race or sex.
The question is no one can tell us how long the descrimination will last for ,nor not when but If it will ever end.

racist...not racest...discrimination...not descrimination

^^ haha