And who said the Shebeen is boring? Lol

I'm not sure ;) ...Pieter, you really like editing your posts, don't you? haha

Guys, I think we do not need this arguement. IF you would have browsed through www.sagoodnew.co.za last week, you would have seen an article whebry they were talking about BEE and all. FYI, BEE is left with a max of 5 years from now and fucken racist white people of this country must realize that our government doesn't exclude them but just let them to share the wealth of the country with all of us. I used to work for the Australian company in Rivonia, beleive you me there were more whites than Africans who were hired there. Plenty of whites used to, and they still leave, the company for greener pastures within the same South Africa. Racist white people wants to keep wealth to themselves, but we all have to share it. I say that those who are against the BEE and AA they must leave us alone and go to Europe.

Racist is still there and now its get pushed differently by most companies in South Africa, plenty of our blac brothers and sisters are emplyed just to increase the balc numbers in the company more than working. There are not given anyhing to work on, but their white counterparts get more experience than them. Racist whites are the puppets of the "Free Masons' and their aim is to demolarize blacks and believe you me that won't work. I'm not hating whites, but the RACIST ones I say leave Africa and go to Europe or Australia. Our black goverment managed to do a lot in just 10 years, YES, they do have their short falls, but they have done a lot for all of us.


Wasn't expecting that. :runaway:

Like I said I dont know what the answer is to rebalance the wealth, skills and equality but its not by descriminatiog against any group ,race or sex.
The question is no one can tell us how long the descrimination will last for ,nor not when but If it will ever end.

See AA in Malaysia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumiputra

Certain pro-bumiputra policies known as the Bumiputra Laws exist as a means of affirmative action for bumiputras. Such policies include quotas for the following: admission to government educational institutions, qualification for public scholarships, positions in government and ownership in business. Most of them were established in the Malaysian New Economic Policy (NEP). Examples of such policies include:

Companies listed on the Kuala Lumpur Stock Exchange (Bursa Saham Kuala Lumpur) must find Bumiputras to take up a minimum 30% of equity to satisfy listing requirements. MSC status companies listed on MESDAQ, Malaysia's latest stock exchange, modelled on the NASDAQ and other 'tech' stock exchanges are not subject to this requirement.

A certain percentage of housing in any development has to be sold to Bumiputra owners. Housing developers are required to provide a minimum 7% discount to Bumiputra buyers of these lots.

A basket of government guaranteed and run mutual funds are available for purchase by Bumiputra buyers only.

Many government tendered projects require that companies submitting tenders be bumiputra owned. This requirement has led to non-Bumiputras teaming up with Bumiputra companies to obtain projects in a practice known as "Ali Baba" where Ali (the Bumiputra) exists solely to satisfy this requirement and Baba (the non Bumiputra) gives Ali a certain sum in exchange.

Projects were earmarked for Malay contractors to gain expertise in various fields. Often these projects would be sold as the bidders were not interested in the work, only in the gains that could be made from winning such a tender.

Approved Permits (APs) for automobiles preferentially allow Bumiputra to import vehicles. Automotive companies wishing to bring in cars need to have an AP to do so. APs were originally created to allow Bumiputra participation in the automotive industry since they were issued to companies with at least 70% Bumiputra ownership. In 2004, the Edge (a business newspaper) estimated that APs were worth approximately RM 35,000 a piece. They also estimated that Nasimuddin Amin, chairman of the Naza group received 6,387 for 2003, making him the largest recipient of APs. 12,234 APs were issued in 2003. In addition to APs, foreign car marquees are required to pay between 140% to 300% as an import duty.

Mo Rush, you are such a juvinile wanker, do you really think you are clever picking up spelling mistakes?
What has amazed me about all these passionate threads defecnding AA is that you all see AA as a way of addressingfthje past and no one is looking at the future . Also no one has been able to effectivly explain why the DESCRIMINATIOn is acceptable in a modern democratic society.
point to the past, blame proponents of apartheit but is descriminationn and quotas really the enswer? Anfd why do only the black population ghet the help, what of the indian and colourds as pointed out by Roman were too black in the past ands now are too white to be part of AA?
No one has addressed the issue of croniesim and how Tokyo and guys like that who are multi millionaries can be classifed as previously deisadvantaged? Shouldent there be a cut off once you reach a certain economic level? like quotas in sport, how can a breyton paulse be classifed as a quota player when he was making the team on merit and played like 40 teats but still Western Province would pick him as a quota.
What Im trying to say is that the abuss is rampent, just look at the land deals in CT around big bay, same thing in Durban with Anand singh, but we turn a blind eye to it.
If people are serious about AA and BEE then it nees to be fool proof and not for the benifit of a minority as it is now but must uplift huge amounts of the population.
do you think that a BEE contractor will pay his labourers any more that minimum wage if that. so how can that be classified as economic improvement when 1 guy gets rich and his 1000 workers stay poor?

I also see loads of AA here in the UAE as nationilisation process with foreigh compaonies wishig to work here needing to have a local read native partner , simmiler to BEE and the local does absolutly nothing as in " use my name to get the contract, pay me 50% as a partner but Im not doing any work"
That culture is the next step in SA and then can you condone that?

[Sigh] Verkrampte thinking. One of the many abnormal normalities, that we face in this paradox called reality. Its sad, very sad. :(

Mo Rush, you are such a juvinile wanker, do you really think you are clever picking up spelling mistakes?
What has amazed me about all these passionate threads defecnding AA is that you all see AA as a way of addressingfthje past and no one is looking at the future . Also no one has been able to effectivly explain why the DESCRIMINATIOn is acceptable in a modern democratic society.
point to the past, blame proponents of apartheit but is descriminationn and quotas really the enswer? Anfd why do only the black population ghet the help, what of the indian and colourds as pointed out by Roman were too black in the past ands now are too white to be part of AA?
No one has addressed the issue of croniesim and how Tokyo and guys like that who are multi millionaries can be classifed as previously deisadvantaged? Shouldent there be a cut off once you reach a certain economic level? like quotas in sport, how can a breyton paulse be classifed as a quota player when he was making the team on merit and played like 40 teats but still Western Province would pick him as a quota.
What Im trying to say is that the abuss is rampent, just look at the land deals in CT around big bay, same thing in Durban with Anand singh, but we turn a blind eye to it.
If people are serious about AA and BEE then it nees to be fool proof and not for the benifit of a minority as it is now but must uplift huge amounts of the population.
do you think that a BEE contractor will pay his labourers any more that minimum wage if that. so how can that be classified as economic improvement when 1 guy gets rich and his 1000 workers stay poor?



if you think i think AA addresses the past then you don;t know the past, again apartheid wasn;t a figment of peoples imagination...you try to apply AA and mention tokyo and dubai etc...that doesn't work in south africa's case....again go read up on the history..AA is far from addressing the past, it could be much worse and you know it....again 80% of the country was neglected for decades, treated like dirt in the gutters....its something you need to see with your own eyes not try to judge from whereever u are???...oh and descrimination is spelt discrimination....

p.s. you got it all wrong....racist not racest and juvenile not juvinile..it is tough ...

Its funny how you say, we should forget about the past, and look to the future. Its so easy for you to say. You never had to experience anything like watching your mother die because there is no hospital around that serves black people. You never had to experience anything like watching your house that you have lived in for years being torn apart by hammers and crowbars simply because the government wants you to move into some dingy part of the country; or experience being paid for less than you deserve and then in turn having to pay a voting poll tax in a land you couldn't even vote in. If you went through that, I don't think you would be spewing that dizzying, nonsensical, self serving rhetoric that we have seen so far.
You say you HAD African and Indian friends when you were little, so what? I guess you deserve a Nobel Peace Prize because of that, right?
You say that jobs should be based on solely on merit, too bad the term merit usually means work hard, go to private school, get into an Ivy League, and forge superficial "friendships" based on self-interest and profit with people you meet at cocktail parties. And then tell these people they are right, even when they are wrong. And then say nice things about them, and justify your lack of integrity by insisting that your career opportunism is actually "personal loyalty."
Too bad most Africans don't know jack about that lifestyle, except cleaning and serving in those buildings. How do you compare the chances of a white person from somewhere like Bloubergstrand whose parents have gone to school, are well educated, and well paid and can help him get along in life to that of a black person from Soweto, whose parents have never even went to school, let alone college, and can barely afford to take care of their children let alone help him them with their homework or send them to college and pay for their schooling. You must think that the government was born yesterday, if you think they are just going to sit there and let those problems persist, just because its a "colorblind" society and yada, yada, yada.
Its funny how you have the chutzpah to call the current government nasty things like NP Imperialists and what not. Yet you seem the not the least bit concerned with finding solutions to the problems that face these people.
Man by instinct, no matter what race he is, will always find a way to survive and the only means left to many of these people now is a life of criminality. Why? Because of the embarrassingly high unemployment rate (40%)
How can anyone in their right mind compare the current government to that of those nasty, icky, creeps (NP Imperialist)?. It seems to me that you would rather see them (Africans) in the streets scaring tourists away rather than in the skyscrapers,so many of you desperately want built, doing business. Whose being patriotic?And whose being the NP Imperialist?It just seems that you have a hard time dealing with the fact that you are no more the kings and queens of South Africa.

mo rush and peiter you guys are right im so sorry for having my opinion and thanks for clearing up[ all the points I asked.
Mo you are such a little twatt , who gives a sght about spelling msiwtakes, this ising a school project .
Now I can see why so many people have left and will continue to leave the country and believe me I started this South African forum with Gandalff/Enigma and so it seems nepotism/corrupion and darn right incompatence drove him away and so it seems I should do the same .
Seems you to dumbasses wont be happy till every last white has left the country and Sa become a basket case just like Zim, Whos the raciest (fuck the spelling) now?
this is so boring that two little school girls cant have an adult discussion in a forum where different ideas are shared and respected.
Dont blame someone like me for the past and for apartheit

Oh, so now that we don't agree with you we are two little school girls? Talk about totalitarianism in its most extreme form.

Oh yeah, by the way, its spelled Pieter not Peiter, lol.

mo rush and peiter you guys are right im so sorry for having my opinion and thanks for clearing up[ all the points I asked.
Mo you are such a little twatt , who gives a sght about spelling msiwtakes, this ising a school project .
Now I can see why so many people have left and will continue to leave the country and believe me I started this South African forum with Gandalff/Enigma and so it seems nepotism/corrupion and darn right incompatence drove him away and so it seems I should do the same .

Seems you to dumbasses wont be happy till every last white has left the country and Sa become a basket case just like Zim, Whos the raciest (fuck the spelling) now?
this is so boring that two little school girls cant have an adult discussion in a forum where different ideas are shared and respected.
Dont blame someone like me for the past and for apartheit


whoa you're getting extreme...".incompetence".... your avatar makes more sense now "no one special"...im blaming you for the past??? gosh you are more insecure than i thought...this is the end of my part in this..you need help....im racist?? i hate white people?? what the fuck is that??? i attended a 95% majority white school i don't see your point...this is the real world...u seem to be stuck somewhere between middle earth and your little bubble of what you think south africa is and was....again visit the apartheid museum because

1. you talk lots of shit there is no better way to put it
2. you don't seem to know what the fuck happened in south africa for decades
3. you may have your opinion...but without labelling us school girls or calling us racists and so forth...construct your argument and leave out the personal attacks of who you think we are because of our opinions...i would like no contact with you anymore as you are simply not worth it...ka ching i hear the ignore button

Schoolgirls, etc., is namecalling and that puts a gap between forumers. As Enigma said, it wasn't meant to turn into an argument, and I think for us all to get along well on the long-term, we should try to change the subject.

People who feel "right" deep down inside can enjoy the fact that they know they are right, and others can carry on with their way of thinking.

I hate being a mod because I have to enforce such rules, but we should try to let the Shebeen simmer for awhile, perhaps? Mo Rush's option #3 is one way to go about this.

-SP!RE

Hey guys, can you tell me any good S.African singers and songs?

Not my music, but i guess Danny K.

Dark City Sisters are the best, but their music is like gold, precious but really hard to find. Johnny Clegg, Dave Matthews is from South Africa. and of course Ladysmith Mambazo are one of my favorites.

but Danny K sucks. I hate South African pop music.

i've decided to become a singer...
:)

I say go with it! I'm taking voice lessons myself!

removed in order to let bygone be bygones.
Pieter/Mo I respect your opinos even if i dont agree with them, have the same respect for me

Johnny Clegg!!????.........LOL.......the white Zulu...holy fuck!!!! LMAO.........dude.....go with LPShow, Slashdogs, Running with Scissors.



If you like rap/pop......Ajax...(is he couloured? COOL accent....cant tell)


And I happen to like this one song by a particular artist....cant remember his name.....the song is "Ubuntu, Abukho"

:)

my god...at least thats over for now, ur all lucky i wasnt aorund the last few days to add my piece.

You now, with the amount of time and hence money u have spent argueing, u could have helped feed someone for a few days...

Last point for ur violent discussion, which seemed like it turned into a bitch up! Remember that the root of everyhting is education. instead of attcking each other over BEE and AA (i will reserve my opinion on those), we should focus on educating the youth. money must be put into rural schools, tertiary instituions and colleges. if the government doesnt do that properly (which they are failing hopelessly with at the moment) then the whole country will be fucked and BEE and AA will mean sweet fuck all.

:) Have a nice day all :)

[removed in order to let bygone be bygones.
Pieter/Mo I respect your opinos even if i dont agree with them, have the same respect for me]

They are not opinions, they are facts.

Thanx for your replies guys! I just rememberd to check back... :D

I'll go try to download some S. African music now...

if you can. otherwise go to www.samp3.com

Ok, guys I have a question.

What 5 cities do you think are the most beautiful cities in the world. Not just based on skyline or anything but sheer absolute beauty. It can be architectural,natural, or even both, I just want to see your opinions. Here's mine

1. Hong Kong
2. Shanghai
3. Dubai
4. Cape Town
5. Tel Aviv

What are your five most favorite cities.

Ok, guys I have a question.

What 5 cities do you think are the most beautiful cities in the world. Not just based on skyline or anything but sheer absolute beauty. It can be architectural,natural, or even both, I just want to see your opinions. Here's mine

1. Hong Kong
2. Shanghai
3. Dubai
4. Cape Town
5. Tel Aviv

dubai is fake
tel aviv has its moments
shanghai is cool
hong kong is cool too
cape town is the most "beautiful" amongst these cities thats without bias....

Yeah, Dubai = fake and so "new" and overly rich that I would want to slit my wrists

You left out the city that comes after Cape Town for beauty: VANCOUVER which is a breathtaking city! It is VERY different from Cape Town but has a very unique and exotic appeal all its own.

Well spire have you been to Dubai or is this a North American version of the world?
For you un-iformed Dubai has a history that goes back thousands of years and has more culture that all of the new world put together, just cos its buiolding the tallest buildings in the world doeent make it FAKE as you guys so eliquantl;y put it.

As for beauty Sydney makes CT look like a back water town as does Auckland and San Fran. Vancouver is stunning due to its back drop with hemlock so close.
You need to define what Beauty is as its all in the eye of the beholder and beauty means different things to different people. Doesit means loads of water a mountain back drop, cleanliness, the types of people and how they welcome you or is it peaurpy superficial and related to the architecture?

considering I have lived in 9 countries and traveled to 38 I think I can speak from experienc e and name my 5 based on my version of beauty.( location, surroundings,architecture, people NOT HISTORY so European cities excluded)
1 Sydney by a country mile
2 Vancouver
3 Miami
4 San Fran
5 Auckland

Well......I find most of South Africas cities pleasantly attractive, (even Johannesburg, with more trees than any other city in the world). But........So many cities are just gorgeous, its hard to choose.............but I'll list my top 10 ;)..........


In NO particular order-


Cape Town
Rio de Janeiro
La Paz
Sydney
Hong Kong
Lviv
Paris
New York City
Santa Fe
.......................too tough, maybe................I dunno

where is Lviv?

Ukraine aka Lvov.

My top 5 based on where I've visited:

1) Paris
2) Sydney
3) Cape Town
4) Prague
5) Pretoria is a very pretty city as well

Even Joburg has it's moments with all it's trees.

Well spire have you been to Dubai or is this a North American version of the world?
For you un-iformed Dubai has a history that goes back thousands of years and has more culture that all of the new world put together, just cos its buiolding the tallest buildings in the world doeent make it FAKE as you guys so eliquantl;y put it.

As for beauty Sydney makes CT look like a back water town as does Auckland and San Fran. Vancouver is stunning due to its back drop with hemlock so close.
You need to define what Beauty is as its all in the eye of the beholder and beauty means different things to different people. Doesit means loads of water a mountain back drop, cleanliness, the types of people and how they welcome you or is it peaurpy superficial and related to the architecture?

considering I have lived in 9 countries and traveled to 38 I think I can speak from experienc e and name my 5 based on my version of beauty.( location, surroundings,architecture, people NOT HISTORY so European cities excluded)
1 Sydney by a country mile
2 Vancouver
3 Miami
4 San Fran
5 Auckland


"eloquently"...sydney is fantastic..happy memories...and so is auckland...vancouver is amazing too...

even thou I have Miami at 3 Id live there again in aheart beat over the others. Maybe a sub thread is top 5 cities you would like to live in.
Miami
BA
NY
papeete (thaiti)
Tampa

hmmm........



Johannesburg
Durban
Cape Town
........................(calm down boys...Im not choosing one over the others ;) )

New York City
London

you liked living in Miami? to me it was hell!! mugged 3 times, by the third time i had nothing left to give them!

Its kinda pretty, but i found that back from the beaches wasnt great at all. i dunno, not a place i really want to go back to.


my top 5 to live (no order)

Durban
Amsterdam
Montreal
Paris
Stockholm

My top places to live in no order would be

Rome
Rio de Janeiro
Montreal
Boston
Durban

Just got back from a couple of weeks in France and must admit I like Paris more and more.

you liked living in Miami? to me it was hell!! mugged 3 times, by the third time i had nothing left to give them!

Its kinda pretty, but i found that back from the beaches wasnt great at all. i dunno, not a place i really want to go back to.


my top 5 to live (no order)

Durban
Amsterdam
Montreal
Paris
Stockholm


Hehe, if you visit Montreal remember not to be shocked if gay guys are very forward with you. Especially during the Black and Blue circuit party in early October.

Ohhh! Amsterdam, I love Amsterdam. Spreekt er iemand Nederlands hier?

Ja, Ik spreekt. :) Hoe gaan het met u vandaag?

Goede........Hey, by the way, whatever happened to Andres?

He was banned :(

whos that?

The member named AAS from Buenos Aires... he will be back in November.

-thryve

Found this while I was webcoasting, really interesting article:

Egalitarian Finland most competitive, too By Peter Ford, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Wed Oct 26, 4:00 AM ET



HELSINKI, FINLAND - Fifty years ago, Finland was known for little more than the wood pulp from its endless forests. A poverty-stricken land of poorly educated loggers and farmers on the edge of the Arctic Circle, few paid it any attention.


Today, this small Nordic nation boasts a thriving hi-tech economy ranked the most competitive in the world, the best educated citizenry of all the industrialized countries, and a welfare state that has created one of the globe's most egalitarian societies.

Envious policymakers from far and wide are beating a path to Helsinki to learn the secrets of Finland's success.

"We have a saying here," chuckles Stefan Nygard, a university lecturer, as he swings his baby daughter gently, soothing her to sleep. "If you are Finnish, you've won the lottery."

But as the leaders of other European countries desperately seek ways to preserve their expensive systems of social protection in a competitive globalized world, Finland's circumstances and mind-set aren't easily copied. "Finland is an exceptional case Europe," cautions Riisto Erasaari, professor of social policy at Helsinki University. "We are a small homogenous country, heavily state-based, and our social model as a whole is so typically Finnish that it won't travel. But parts of it," - such as the government-funded focus on innovation and education, "are exportable."

Mr. Nygard and his partner, Minna Sirelius, have certainly enjoyed the fruits of Finland's exceptionalism.

Neither of them paid a cent for their university education, though they took seven years to complete their respective degrees in history and psychology. Ms. Sirelius enjoyed free healthcare throughout her pregnancy and the birth of their daughter, Emilia, and she plans to stay on leave from her job in IBM's human resources department for 11 months.

She can afford to: The government is paying her 60 percent of her salary to look after her baby. Next year Nygard and Sirelius will choose among the Finnish-, Swedish-, English-, or Spanish-language day-care centers in their neighborhood, and the state will pick up four-fifths of the cost.

If either of them loses their job, they will be able to count on unemployment benefits that range up to 70 percent of their salaries for 18 months. And when they retire they can look forward to generous pensions that amount, for the average Finn, to 60 percent of their last salary.

These benefits come at a cost, of course: Finland levies some of the highest taxes in the world, and if Ms. Sirelius does well in her career, she will pay more than 45 percent of her personal income toward taxes. But she does not object. "I feel that is what keeps our society and country running," she explains. "We can't keep the welfare state running unless everyone pitches in and helps with the costs."

In that she is like most of her fellow Finns, says Petri Rouvinen, research director for ETLA, a business-linked economic think tank. "The Finnish mindset is collectivist, with a very strong sense of fairness," he says. "It's that kind of mindset that makes it possible to have this sort of system."

But what Mikko Kautto, a researcher at the government's Welfare Research Center, calls "universalist thinking," goes further. Finns do not regard social spending as a drag on economic growth and job creation, he says, but as a positive force.

"The merit of thinking socially," he argues, "is that having everybody involved, with all our human capital working for the benefit of society, is part of the reason for our [economic] competitiveness." The World Economic Forum, which runs annual business summits in Davos, Switzerland, has ranked Finland the most competitive economy in the world, ahead of the United States, for four of the past five years.

Nowhere is this approach clearer than in Finland's schools, which at the end of World War II turned out some of the worst educated young people in the industrialized world, and now graduate the best, according to comparative studies by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).

Making sure that every Finnish child, wherever he lived and whatever his background, could get a decent education had a very deliberate goal, says Riita Lampola, head of international relations for the Finnish Board of Education, which oversees schooling.

"As a poor country with a small population, if we wanted to be a modern society and to develop our country, we needed everybody here," she says. "That meant everybody had to be educated."

High level education is the key to what Pekka Himanen, a brilliant young philosopher who advises the Finnish government, calls his country's "virtuous circle."

"When people can fulfill their potential they become innovators," Dr. Himanen argues. "The innovative economy is competitive and makes it possible to finance the welfare state, which is not just a cost, but a sustainable basis for the economy, producing new innovators with social protection."

Other European countries could copy Finland's efforts to improve its education system, Himanen insists, just as they could emulate Finland's heavy investment in research and development (R&D) - currently standing at 3.6 percent of GDP, the highest level in Europe after Sweden.

It is this approach that has fostered firms such as Nokia, the largest cellphone producer in the world whose spectacular growth has boosted the Finnish economy and carried many high-tech subcontractors on its coattails. The telecommunications superstar singlehandedly accounts for one-quarter of Finland's exports, 4 percent of its GDP, and 35 percent of business sector R&D.

Finland maintained high R&D spending even during the dark days of an economic crisis in the early 1990s that saw GDP fall 13 percent in three years and unemployment climb to 17.9 percent.

The legacy of that crisis disappoints many Finns: for the past 10 years successive governments have grown stingier than they used to be, and though social spending has held steady, services have not improved in the way they used to.

The public health system in Helsinki, for example, is overcrowded with older Finns. "You wait a long time to see a doctor, and then you don't see him for very long," complains Sirelius.

Pensions have risen by only three percent in real terms since 1993 - ten times more slowly than wages. Many jobs lost in the crisis have not been replaced, and unemployment stands at 8.6 percent.

"The cleavage between rich and poor is perhaps widening," says Jouko Kajanajo, the head of social research at the Social Security headquarters. "At any rate, the increase in equality has stopped."

"We are the poor little brothers" of neighboring, more generous Scandinavian countries such as Sweden, acknowledges Dr. Kautto. Indeed, Sweden's social spending, which constitutes 28.9 percent of its GDP - compared to Finland's 24.8 percent, enables it to provide more social benefits. "Finland did not restore social protection to pre-crisis levels... but we have not forgotten our Nordic heritage in our social policy," says Kautto.

That policy enjoys enormous public and political support across the spectrum, founded on the consensual style of Finnish life where governments, employers, and unions are used to making compromises with each other. It helps, of course, that Finland's population of 5.3 million is largely homogenous, with a 6 percent Swedish minority and no significant immigration.

The result is that even the opposition Conservative party supports the country's social model: Its most daring attack on the status quo was a recent suggestion that Finns should be made to pay a token fee for using the public library system.

Indeed, says Mr. Rouvinen, the challenges of globalization mean that "we specifically need our social model. As a small country on the edge of the world we will have steep ups and downs. We have to have mechanisms so that individuals won't suffer from that."

But Finland will have to adapt its model, as it develops what Dr. Himanen calls "the welfare state 2.0."

"It will have to become more innovative, more productive, more customer driven," he argues. And that may mean giving private companies a larger role in providing welfare state services, and encouraging a more entrepreneurial approach.

"Until now we have been a textbook case of how a country should advance," says Rouvinen. "Today we are at a crossroads, because we have been a catch-up economy, and now we are at the global frontier, which is a different ballgame. We have to lead the way."

That, he suggests, demands the sort of businessman who can "come up with radical new ideas and make billions, and the Finnish mind-set does not support that."

He remains confident, though, that so long as Finland can tell success stories like Nokia's in key global industries such as telecommunications, and improve its efficiency in delivering welfare services, it can go on offering economic growth and a social safety net.

After running budget surpluses for a decade, adds Dr. Kautto, "Finland is one of the countries best equipped to meet the challenges of an aging population, globalization, and so on. In economic terms we are doing extremely well."

In the end, says Jorma Sipila, the Chancellor of Tampere University, Finland's inclusive social model is its best guarantee for the future.

"The conditions for a flourishing economy are so demanding that the state has to make social investments to raise competent people and take care of dropouts so that they carry their share of the burden," he argues. "Marrying prosperity and social protection is the only sustainable future."

• Thursday: France looks at how to remodel its social model.

Finn facts
Land of Nokia

The world's No. 1 cellphone maker is based in Finland. It holds 32 percent of the global cellphone market.

Nokia started in 1865 as a forest industry company on the banks of the Nokia River. Today, it employs more than 60,000 people (about 24,000 in Finland) with factories in 10 countries and research and development facilities in 15 countries.

Nokia's share of Finland's:

GDP 4% Business sector R&D 35% Exports 25% CEO Jorma Ollila's yearly pay: $4.64 million

Upwardly mobile society

In 1998, when some Americans were still getting funny looks for using cellphones, mobile subscribers in Finland already outnumbered land-line subscribers. In fact, 20 percent of households relied solely on cellphone service.

No censorship here

Reporters Without Borders ranks Finland (and several other countries) No. 1 for freedom of the press. The US ranks 22nd.

It has its challenges, too

Finland has some of the highest suicide rates in the developed world. For people aged 35-44, for example, the suicide rate is 29.9 (people per 100,000) in Finland, versus 14.4 in the US.

Speeding is expensive

A 27-year-old Finnish heir to a sausage business, Jussi Salonoja, was famously fined 170,000 euros (about $217,000 at the time) for going 80 kilometers per hour in a 40 kph zone. Speeding fines are based on the offender's income. Mr. Salonoja's reported earnings for 2002 were 7 million euros.

Linux is from where?

The open-source operating system was started in 1991 as a hobby by Finnish university student Linus Torvalds. But he wasn't the only entrepreneurial student: In 1992 (before Netscape came along), IT students at the Helsinki University of Technology developed the first graphic-based Internet browser.

Where Santa's sleigh garages

The residents Mt. Korvatunturi - in the northern part of Finland known as Lapland - claim this is the home of Santa Claus. Some 600,000 letters a year are sent there in the hope that it's true.

Sources: Yahoo; Harvard Business School; Morgan Stanley; Finnfacts.com; University of Lapland; BBC;


Do you think South Africa, could ever be like Finland?

Do you think South Africa is becoming increasingly globally competitive, if not what do you think needs to be done to make it more globally competitive.

One of the major differences between South Africa and Finland is that South Africa is a heterogenous country and Finland is not. So that means it does not have to deal with stupid racial conflicts. However just because South Africa is not a homogenous nation does not mean it cannot be a success. Here is an example of a heteregenos nation that was transformed from a filthy backwater to a booming economic powerhouse.

Republic of Singapore (1965 – present)
Immediately after independence, the tiny island nation of Singapore seemed extremely inadequate to survive by itself; much of the international media were sceptical of prospects for her survival. The pressing issues were unemployment, housing, education, lack of natural resources and lack of land. The unemployment rate, ranging between 10-12%, became an extremely thorny issue. The loss of access to the Malaysian hinterland and the lack of natural resources meant that Singapore had no solid traditional sources of income. A large portion of the population lacked formal education, even when this statistic counted Chinese schools which the British did not recognise. Entrepot trade, the main use of Singapore's port and the original reason for Singapore's success in the 19th century, was no longer sufficient to support the large population.

There was a lack of good housing and a proliferation of squatter settlements. Combined with the high unemployment rate, this led to social problems from crime, a low standard of living and unrest. The other deleterious effect of squatter settlements, was that many of these were built of highly flammable materials, were poorly constructed and thus posed a high fire risk. A prominent example in this case is the Bukit Ho Swee Squatter Fire that broke out in 1961. In addition, there was poor sanitation, which led to the spread of infectious diseases.

Another problem facing Singapore was that there was little national unity among most of the population. Many people still identified themselves in terms of countries of origin, rather that being Singaporeans. This posed possible problems of loyalty, reliability and the possibility of further racial riots.

Singapore dealt with each of these problems separately.

Overall, however, Singapore invested heavily in economic growth. Industrial estates were set up, especially in Jurong, and government ministers including Lee Kuan Yew toured the world in order to try to gain investors from abroad. The government offered new investors tax holidays of 5-10 years. Singapore's port thus gave her an advantage over her neighbouring countries because the industries and investors were at a favourable spot for efficient exports of refined goods and import of raw material. This meant that industries in Singapore found international markets easily, and cheaper prices for raw goods. Singapore's growing industrialisation thus effectively meant that entrepot trade had been extended in that goods had been refined in the process of importing raw materials and exporting finished products - leading to higher value-added goods which brought more income to the island. This ended up being a suitable alternative to a Common Market to the Malaysian hinterland, although later a form of it ended up being formed with the creation of ASEAN.

The service industry also grew at this time, sparked by demand for services by ships calling at the port and increasing commerce.

The new direction that Singapore took demanded a skilled labour force to engage in her revised role of refining raw goods, as opposed to the traditional natural resource extraction industries of her neighbours. Its leaders decided early on that the population would need to be fluent in English, as they would be communicating and co-operating with expatriate employers or business partners abroad, and English was adopted as the medium of education for all schools. Education, at least at primary level, was made compulsory. The education system was designed to be rigorous and intensive, with emphasis on immediately practical, rather than intellectual, applications, such as on the technical sciences as opposed to political discussion or philosophy. A large portion, around one-fifth of Singapore's budget was devoted to education to facilitate a large and competent work force upon graduation.

This style of educational policy was extremely competitive, and favoured those that did initially well, and tended to ignore the suffering students, in the process of streaming. This remains a thorny issue even today. This issue was brought up in the quite successful local film I Not Stupid and also addresses the culture of competition in Singapore induced by the post-independence education policy. Although the education policy has evolved over the years to address such concerns, the streaming issue is still prominent.

In order to resolve racial tension, a policy to create national identity through education in schools and flag raising and lowering ceremonies was implemented. This is constantly re-emphasised within the curriculum and the program of "National Education", a compulsory program whose main goal is to encourage students to form a "national fraternity".

The Housing Development Board set up before independence continued to be largely successful. Huge building projects sprung up to provide cheap, affordable housing to resettle the squatters. It was remarkable that the majority of the population was housed in HDB apartments within a decade. Possible explanations for the otherwise seemingly impossible success was the determination of the government, the large budget allocations, and efforts to eliminate red tape and corruption. This also helped to foster national unity, racial harmony and loyalty, especially with the intentional policy to group the different races together within the same estate; this has led the HDB policy to be a major contribution towards the Culture of Singapore. Having achieved its stated goal of rehousing Singapore's squatters, and thus removing a large social problem, it set out to build larger and higher-standard apartments. Today, 80-90% of the population is housed in HDB apartments.

Reformation of the justice system and law occurred, as well as government attempts to mediate labour disputes. This tended to reduce or even eliminate most of the resentment that was present in the workforce prior to 1965. Singapore took the step of nationalising companies that would not survive on their own, or could otherwise be detrimental for Singapore if they were not closely in line with government policy. Singapore Power, Public Utilities Board, Singapore Telecommunications (SingTel) and Singapore Airlines (SIA) are prominent examples. Such companies that were nationalised were often infrastructure or utility companies, companies meant to lay out services such as electricity or transport for the benefit of other companies. The extension of power infrastructure for example, led to an increased attraction of foreign investors. Recently, the government has taken steps to privatise these previous monopolies - SingTel and SIA are now publicly listed, limited liability companies, even though the government still holds large shares in them.

Changi Airport was also built around this time. The development of air transport meant further extension of entrepot trade as well as its intended purpose of attracting investors through a convenient way to enter and leave the country. In conjunction with Singapore Airlines, for example, the hospitality industry grew immensely, which led to growth in the tourism industry.

The other major issue brought up around this time was national defence. Following independence, the British were still defending Singapore, but had announced they would be withdrawing by 1971, due to pressures at home and military commitments elsewhere in the world. This caused considerable alarm locally, particularly among those who remembered the Japanese occupation when Singapore had been defenceless during World War II. Lee Kuan Yew initiated preparations for a national defence force from 1967, to be called the Singapore Armed Forces, to be established by the time of the British withdrawal. The British agreed to postpone the withdrawal for half a year, but no longer. Singapore consulted international experts from Germany and Israel to train their armed forces and equip them. As a small country surrounded by larger neighbours, Singapore allocated a large portion of its budget, around 19% to defence, and this still continues today, having the fourth largest per capita military expenditure in the world (after Israel, United States and Kuwait).

Singapore was especially interested in Israel's model of national service that led to its decisive victory in the Six Day War over its Arab neighbours in 1967. This led to the implementation of Singapore's own national service programme starting in 1967. All eighteen-year old males would be required to participate in national service and train full-time for two and a half years, and then required to repeatedly come back each year to maintain their skills in order to carry out an effective mobilisation at any time. This policy meant that Singapore could quickly mobilise enough defence forces to deter any invasion, especially against Indonesia during the Confrontation, when the British withdrew in September 1971. Females were left out of national service - the explanation being that, during a time of war, they would be required to support the economy while the men were fighting. This policy is sometimes questioned as being sexist and has been discussed in the mass media a number of times together with the length of training involved. The creation of the national service policy is thought to aid the strengthening of national and racial ties since there is a sense of unity when training as a youth with peers of other races.

A "Total Defence" policy was created with the intent of the population being prepared to defend Singapore on five metaphorical fronts: economically, on a civil level (including hospitals), a social level, a psychological level as well as on a military level.

Singapore also realised the need for international co-operation. It joined the United Nations on 21 September 1965, and in October joined the Commonwealth, and became part of ASEAN on 8 August 1967. This helped to boost trade through co-operation. It also later joined the World Trade Organization.

Further economic success continued through the 1980's onwards, with the unemployment rate falling to 3%, and Real GDP growth averaging at about 8% during this time until 1999. In the 1980's, Singapore faced the challenge of needing to upgrade its industries to higher-technology industries, in order to compete with its neighbours which were exporting the same things at a lower price. Originally, Singapore had been manufacturing things such as textiles. A skilled workforce with an aptitude for learning helped ease the transition, for example, to new jobs in the wafer fabrication industry, which was quickly being established in Singapore.

Singapore also had to upgrade its military; such as upgrading the standard infantry weapon of its army. Formerly it had been the AK-47, it was upgraded to the lighter, US made M16.

Singapore has become one of the world's most prosperous countries, with strong international trading links (its port is one of the world's busiest) and with per capita GDP above that of the leading nations of Western Europe. The education budget remains at one fifth or more, and many of its practices, such as racial harmony, continue today.

A side effect of this is that traffic congestion become increasingly more common, and in 1987, the first Mass Rapid Transit (MRT) line was established and would later grow to become a famous epitome of what is often viewed as a well integrated public transport system.

In 1990, Lee Kuan Yew passed the reins to successor Goh Chok Tong, who saw the country through some of its most serious postwar crises, including the 1997 Asian financial crisis and SARS in 2003.

South Africa will never be a Finland or Singapore, however i DO see it becoming a UK, USA or Australia......South Africas too big, and will always have its fair share of problems that come along with a larger population.....just like the US.

South Africa already IS globally competitive and the Powerhouse of not only the Continent of Africa, but a major player in the Souther Hemisphere too.

Looking at the level of investment, the very fast changing perspective of the country, and its strategic location, coupled with its infrastructure, history, self-sufficiency, and general outlook and views of its citizens....I'd really be watching the country close in 10 years........look out, SOUTH AFRICA is coming!!!!! :)

Intresting read on the NON DELIVARY OF SERVICES as noted so vocally in prevuious threads
http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20051101062026197C136121

Well, I thought I would start a new thread, but instead I decided I would just ask this question in here.

I was wondering, how many whites in South Africa's white population have fled, or are thinking of fleeing, the country?

I simply ask because whenever you see a South African on the internet, they are usually white, and 90 percent of the time they are living in one of the other commonwealth countries. They never seem to be in South Africa.

On top of that, but immigration boards to places like the U.K or New Zealand are absolutley loaded with South Africans wanting to get out of S.A. And they are almost always white. Considering how small the white population there is, it really gives off the impression that most white folks there have emmigrated or are already planning on leaving. Or if they can't leave, they wish they could.

Just wondering what the thought of the average white middle class person is. I know you folks try to put a positive spin on the place, but the fact that every white seems to want to get the hell out isn't a good sign.

LOL.......typical view.

well for truth to be told, for the first time in many years, SA had a net influx of whites in 2004. it maybe only an influx of +2985 (stats SA) but for the last 9 years it has been a net loss of over 20000 a year! so things seem to be turning.

also for the first time in many years the white population has grown, it may be a small growth (from 4.7m to 4.82m) but its growth

Finally, a solid statistic for that!!! :D

I was wondering if the difference was really that great, but that is an amazing statistic!

LOL.......typical view.

But he can't be blaimed ;) He's asking a very valid question: "WHAT IS THE TRUTH?"

:)

stats may be the "offical"stand, but there are hundreds of thousands who work and or who left with out "emagrating", Im one, I havent emigrated but I havent lived in SA for nearly 10 years. Its still haome but technically I shoul;d be clasified as a departure.
I have met so many saffies is every where from Warsaw to Miami and literally hundreds in OZ who have no intention of going back but havnet left(strange way of thinking)
I honestly think the stats and emmigration rates are much much higher than that.
from my circle of friends (different schools, younger , older , male, female) more the 50% of who I would call friends or close aquatenses dont live in SA anymore. Thats a big percentage in anyone books.
Also replacing a qualified doctor and family with an semi educated Bulgarian doesent really fill me with much hope.
Its the ones who have left for economic reasons (myself included) who need to come home, invest take a role in SAs future. Thats why I have bought 4 places in the past 2 years and sold up in OZ. I might not live there now but my economic impact is being felt as banks, constcution workers, suppliers etc all bennifit

i hear what u say, but i truely do get the feeling that the excessive flow is halting, and that the people that are returning are highly qualified. I knwo many peeps who've lived in teh uk for 5 or more years and have now come home to durbs. Plus many europeans are actually moving here of their own free will. walk around umhlanga and u will see. they aint tourists, they are running businesses!

Yup I agree with Dysan: young whites will always move overseas to check out a different lifestyle but many of them move back and come back with extra skills and more open attitudes to other race groups etc. Whilst the emigration levals are still worryingly high I think the number of people who are returning home is great to see and it is a trend that will only continue if the economy keeps powering ahead. The grass is not always greener on the other side and SA is an awsome place to be.....

good to hear from a new arrival like urself :)

The grass is not always greener on the other side and SA is an awsome place to be.....

My previous comment in this post was misunderstood, but what I am saying is that life in the USA isn't as great as it is made out to be... enjoy south africa! ;)

what does that mean?

Nobody mentioned the U.S.A...;)

sometimes the plot gets lost along the way to a weary traveller on the wires....hehe

iam confused. I lived in New York and have no intention of moving back there......infact I have no intention of moving anywhere (except to melrose arch next week....)

good one mike, seems you have fitted into joburg nicely

Lilywhite rugby in the dock
November 08, 2005
Black representation of 65 percent in every team is the target for South African rugby in the next 10 years.

South African rugby, in particular, came in for stinging criticism from Parliament and the sport is facing a total transformation in the next decade.

South African sport will lose its white face in the next 10 years and those sporting codes who still fight the change will be forced through legislation.

SA Rugby presented its tranformation charter to Parliament. It includes targets and scorecards with weights for certain elements with which changes to rugby "on and off the field" can be measured.

Teams from Under-13 to national level must comply with demographic representation (with a weight of 65%), which is by far the most important "transformation dimension".

An independent body will measure rugby institutions' progress with an annual audit. Lack of progress will be punished and accomplishment rewarded.

News 24.com reports that SA Rugby said in a presentation to Parliament that the demographic profile of administrators, referees, coaches and even supporters would have to change to prevent rugby from being overtaken by "culture realities" in the next decade and die out.

SA Rugby CEO Johan Prinsloo and his deputy, Mvuleli Ncula, led the presentation to Parliament's portfolio committee on sport and recreation.

Sport administrator Willie Basson provided research information to the committee from which SA Rugby's charter for transformation "subject to a value system" originated.

The team said the charter offered South African rugby "after 10 years without progress" a second and final chance for survival, regardless of the fact that accelerated transformation posed a high risk."

The charter, which took 500 hours and 20 editions was mostly greeted with enthusiasm by 13 of the 14 provincial rugby unions where it was presented (Border has not yet been visited because of the "chaotic situation" there).

The team said that especially strategic realities, after moral reasons for the charter, made the provincial rugby bosses sit up.

They were surprised when they heard the true facts about rugby's demographic profile and especially the increase among black players.

SA Rugby's figures indicated that the country had about the same number of black as white senior rugby players, but more black than white juniors.

Of the 10 million rugby supporters, more were black than white, although blacks mostly watched rugby at home or at shebeens.

The popularity of rugby as school sport was declining, while basketball, volleyball and tennis were increasing.

Soccer remained the most popular sport among most South Africans, while cricket was now more popular than rugby among all South Africans.

The growth base for rugby was in the Western Cape (especially Cape Town and surrounding areas) and the Northern and Eastern Cape.

Basson said "demography" was the gold mine that should be mined for South African rugby for the future of the game. Unfortunately sport bosses opposed change the most.

An example was that Blue Bull supporters, who did not see their way clear to go and watch soccer at the FNB Stadium, should realise their team would become "demographically representative" somewhere in the future.

"The question was posed if they would support a team comprising 80% black players."

Prinsloo described the decline in schools rugby and opposition to change among some rugby bosses as stumbling blocks.

Access to sporting facilities (with a weight of 10%), work equity (10%), development of expertise (5%), tender preference (5%) and community development (5%) were other elements on the transformation score card.

The portfolio committee promised the government's support for the transformation of rugby at the request of SA Rugby.

SA Rugby's presidents' council and board of directors would soon ratify the charter. It would stay in force until the end of 2014. SA Rugby wanted the presidents of the provincial unions to accept responsibility for the enforcement of the charter.

QUESTION -if there is 65% blacks in the rugby team, does that mean there will have to be 35% non blacks in the soccer team??
This is what I mean about the crazyness of quotas

Carte Blanche is running an A-list survey where you get to rate your favourite (and worste) politician, concert, mayor, beach, politician etc etc
You can take part in it on www.carteblanche.co.za

does no one check my pretoria post about the 24F building in Centurion?????????

HELLO PEOPLE...i know its Pretoria and we tend not to care about it...but thats rather good news when u consider not much above 3F goes on there!

Ruda Landman (Carte Blanche presenter): “Every regime stamps its mark on the cities it rules. Post-apartheid Jo’burg is no different. The Gauteng government has unveiled plans for a precinct that will wipe out the imprint of years of oppression. To achieve new monuments, old ones must fall.”

After a century of constant change, Johannesburg remains a colonial city planned around the town hall, courts and the library. The library gardens, renamed Beyers Naude Square in 2001, have always been a site for protest. Now, if planners have their way, the square and three whole blocks to the south will become part of a vast State precinct.

Ruda: “The plans include a dramatic clearing of space in the heart of the city. Ten buildings, including this whole block and that whole block [indicating on camera] are coming down and Market Street will go underground.”

It’s all part of a long-term plan to move Gauteng government into the heart of Johannesburg. After buying the City Hall in 2001 they quietly started buying property in the precinct area. The province is now one of the biggest owners in the city, with 23 buildings to its name.

One of them is the old Reserve Bank building. Buying it cost one rand, restoring it: R50-million. The buildings around it are not as lucky. Ten historical buildings will be sacrificed to make way for the precinct. They include the Rand Water Board building - considered to be one of the finest classic structures of its kind - and its extension, Custom House. Further down there’s the New Library Hotel, and across Fraser Street, the Lithorn building. The African Bank and Volkskas building on Market Street will go, as will the art deco Clegg House and SARB buildings on Commissioner [Street].

Many architects are upset about government’s heavy-handed approach. They include Monty Sachs, architect of Lithorn house and Mira Fassler Kamstra, whose father designed Custom House.

Mira Fassler Kamstra (architect): “We cannot replace the skills that are embodied in those buildings, the finest of them. If one was totally convinced that what was going to replace what is there is to die for, one would do it.”

Monty Sachs (architect): “Why not pause and put up a reasonable, acceptable alternative and judge it from there? That’s the way I think we should go.”

Ruda: “And if it that meant your creations have to come down?”

Monty: “That is fine.”

We spoke to renowned photographer David Goldblatt in the mothballed atrium of the Rand Water building,

David Goldblatt (photographer): “I think these particular buildings - the ones that are earmarked for destruction, express a whole set of values. I don’t particularly like those values, but they express them in quite powerful ways. And in my opinion it would be of great value to the subsequent people in this city that these things are there to be seen and to be used.”

South Africa has had countless examples of structures imposed on [the] urban landscape without consultation, by previous regimes.

David: “So we’ve seen this kind of government arrogance been played out many times here. We have been told that this is the scheme and we have been told that we have until [the] 17 November to decide whether you want it or not, or to respond. This is a major scheme involving probably billions of rand and it is going to affect the city forever afterwards.”

Jack Van Der Merwe is boss of Gauteng’s numerous public private partnerships including Gautrain and the new State precinct.

Jack Van Der Merwe (CEO Public Private Partnerships): “We are conscious of the fact to build something you have to break down something. And I think the challenge that was there for SAHRA to decide on was, with the breaking down of something, would it be overshadowed by the benefit that it would be to a whole city.”

This concerns Flo Bird, constant crusader to retain all things Johannesburg.

Flo Bird (amateur historian): “When I do the deco tours coming down Commissioner Street, which is a fantastic collection of deco, we always end just outside SAB. So we have done Clegg and SAB because this is a wonderful crescendo to our deco office blocks.”

Because they are over 60 years old, the ten buildings are protected by South African Heritage laws, enforced by the South African Heritage Resources Agency (SAHRA). Despite independent reports stressing their heritage value, SAHRA decided that the money flowing from the precinct carried more weight.

Flo: “What I am really angry about is SAHRA’s response on their grounds you should knock down all the buildings in town.”

SAHRA’s PR officer, Solayman Ibrahim, says they have to look at the bigger picture.

Solayman Ibrahim (PRO: SAHRA): “We have our Act and the Act mandates us to also redress the past’s imbalances. We are going through a transformation here.”

Flo: “But their primary purpose is to look after the heritage. As far as I can see, they are in straightforward dereliction of duty with what they have done now.”

Ruda: “Do you believe that SAHRA still upholds the spirit of the original law, which says that it should nurture and conserve the legacy?”

Solayman: “I think the decision taken by us, knowing full well that it is a contentious decision, emphasises that we have teeth as a Heritage organisation… that we are not scared to make such controversial decisions”

Ruda: “There are allegations that government used political pressure to steam-roll through SAHRA”

Jack: “We as government… we are committed to the processes. I can assure you that from my side there was no pressure.”

Architect Fanuel Motsepe was appointed by provincial government to design a blueprint for the new square. The brief was to accommodate government in an accessible precinct in a way that would transform and revitalise the city.

Fanuel Motsepe(architect) : “We come from an environment where they were designing architecture and urban designs of terror - because we have lived through an era of bomb attacks in the CBD, marches and political rallies. And the environment was politically very tense and, in managing it, denied the public space.”

Motsepe envisages a precinct where cramped pavements give way to generous space for hawkers to trade and kids to play.

Fanuel: “We are trying to open up the environment… to democratise it. It must be able to accommodate larger gatherings of people. It must be a freer place where a variety of cultures, a variety of cultures can find expression here.”

The new square called Kopanong - Sotho for ‘coming together’ -will house museums, monuments, entertainment complexes and a futuristic Tswana homestead.

Fanuel: “We are looking at integrating modernism with tribal space making urban tribal space.”

Mira: “It seems to me like a sentimental vacuum, where a point is wanting to be made about changing the colonial past at huge cost… which is fair enough, if what you are going to get back is worth it.”

Fanuel: “If you weigh the transformation of our society, the need to empower and to strengthen our urban economy relative to a building, we have got to say that some sacrifices have to be made. And how do you make those sacrifices? Do you completely eliminate the building, or do you memorialise also in a dignified and in a very beautiful way?”

Ruda: “Certain elements of the buildings that are going to be demolished will be retained. For example, the façade of the Volkskas building, including this mural depicting the history of the Afrikaner people. It is going to be laid down almost flat as a sculptural part of a planned museum. The architect calls it ‘memorialisation’.”

Fanuel: “Utilising two of the prominent facades there to symbolise first the end of colonialism and also [the] end of apartheid. In so doing, my belief is that we are making this heritage stock more collective, as opposed to exclusive.”

David: “In the 1950s Volkskas put up what was… I mean, it was amusing; it was an attempt at a high rise Cape Dutch building on Market Street. It was a mark of a particular ideological position of that time. If the architects now, or the planners of this scheme, are going to tell us that they are going to preserve it by preserving the façade… to me that is bull. That is playing games.”

Architectural Students from Wits are not impressed either.

Eduardo Chachucho (architecture student): “It is a really bad design. I mean, if you speak to any architecture student, I mean they can be a first year, and they will tell you it is horrible. Any first year tutor would fail you immediately. It is just like a circus.”

Guy Trangos (architecture student): “We have a city of experience, a city of memories. These buildings were a part of the city; they have witnessed the changes in the city and now we can go and just demolish them?”

Mbongeni Ngulube (architecture student): “Although it was done by Europeans, it is distinctly our history as well because it has shaped who we are today. And I think that we have invested in it as well and find ways to incorporate it.”

Henry Paine (architect): “And this is a political decision. It is not an architectural decision. It is not an urban design position. It is political, end of story. Race doesn’t come into this, it is bullshit.”

Ruda: “Some people want to preserve the old buildings, others say that it is atrocious urban planning. But all the opponents agree on one point - they say that the process was flawed from the word go.”

Henry: “From the very first day it was presented it has hardly changed at all. And I think that the public participation process was a sham.”

Eduardo: “I think this should be taken right back to the drawing board and a competition should be set up. It should be a much more democratic way of getting this.”

Ruda; “Why didn’t you open up the process and let different architects put different plans on the table?”

Jack: “That’s exactly what is going to happen now. Remember, when your request for a proposal comes in, your architects are going to look at the constraints. The constraints are the area that we are looking at. The constraints are the buildings that we own, but, within that, they will come up with a plan.”

Ruda: “So they can say we can do that without demolishing the building?”

Jack: “Yes in theory they can, and we will look at it.”

Ruda: “In theory?’

Jack: “Yes.”

When it comes to practice, it seems that other opinions will keep being brushed aside - like the proposal to extend the square to the other side of the library where the buildings have little heritage value.

Flo: “All the buildings we see around us are offices. The people live on that [indicates opposite] side of town. That is where everybody lives.”

A successful appeal against SAHRA’s ruling will force a rethink of the R1.27-billion precinct but, with 30 million rand already spent purchasing the ten doomed buildings, there’s not much room to maneuver.

Jack: “From our side we will go ahead and pre-qualify the consortiums that will bid for this project.”

Fanuel: “So when they bid for this, they are going to have to come up with a better proposal or, in some ways, perhaps similar. But they are going to be working within the framework that we’ve set.”

Mira: “History keeps repeating itself, which is fine, but can’t we learn something from the past? Can’t we have something better, rather than poorer?”

Fanuel: “Times change and we are in an era now where the demands now are far different than the demands of the past, and history must accommodate the present.”

I think this is a great idea and it offers joburg a new lease of life. I cannot understand the objectors: these buildings are empty and only contribute to joburgs decline. A new modern precinct with museams, shops and open space is exactly what joburg needs. I just hope the city council ignores the objectors. With the gautrain as well this might finally bring people from the northern suburbs back into downtown.

The new square will contain "indigenous heritage" in the form of a Stone Age Tswana homestead, constructed in steel and glass, "reminiscent of the pyramid located outside the Louvre in Paris", to be called the New Heritage Complex. A "New Heritage Bridge" will link it to Nedbank Place, on the corner of Market and Sauer streets.

"The building will be designed as a grand gateway or entrance on to the square from the underground parking," according to the report.

The building will have several functions: art and culture-related uses on the ground level, while the "upper levels will form a series of cascading terraces, housing restaurants and cocktail bars". Street trading will be allowed under pergolas around the complex.

There'll also be an amphitheatre just off centre of the new double-size square, with a 13-storey structure such as "an obelisk or column or feature within a fountain". Alongside this will be "an Orientation Wall" designed as "a link between the old and new facades" which will function as "a window of transparency, opening from government on to the urban community".

Near to the amphitheatre street vendor stalls will be constructed.

The ugly walls and non-functional kiosks surrounding the entrances and exits to the present underground parking of Beyers Naude Square will also be demolished to open up the square to the surrounding streets and proposed street cafes and restaurants.

The Nedbank Place wall facing the square will display digital advertising screens and billboards, "animating the square reminiscent to Time Square, New York". Seam lighting will be placed on the north-facing buildings, and restaurants and cafes are to be encouraged along this side, to allow a natural flow from the buildings on to the pavement and the square.

The square will be dotted with trees.

It is hoped that the new square will be used for a variety of events, including parades, religious gatherings, outdoor exhibitions, sporting activities and weekend markets.


Underpass, gateways and skywalks
Under the new square there'll be parking, and an underpass (to replace the four blocks of Market Street that will be incorporated into the square), which will begin before Kort Street to the west, and exit after Harrison Street in the east. The architects acknowledge that the underpass will "acquire sophisticated and innovative architectural and engineering approaches" to ensure that it "acquires conservation significance and be acknowledged as a heritage for future generations".
In addition, there'll be two gateways on to the square. The first is the Fraser Street Gateway, a decorative gateway on to the square from the Fraser Street entrance on the north side of the square. It will consist of a wire and perspex shelter, to be used by street curio traders. The second is the Market Street Close Gateway, and marks the start of the square from the west. The gateway will be defined by three rows of trees between Kort and Sauer streets, in contrast to the "hard materiality" of the Fraser Street Gateway.

The plan also includes four skywalks, linking buildings on the four corners of the enlarged square. The skywalks will consist of three floors, three storeys above the street level. Two of these skywalks will be enlarged to form two gateway towers, the Bank of Lisbon Tower and the Corner House Tower, both buildings on the western corners of the square.

These towers or skywalks will protrude over Market and Commissioner streets and will join the Corner House and the Avril Malan building, and the Bank of Lisbon building and Nedbank Place. They will consist of a triple volume open-air terrace with cafes, cocktail bars and restaurants overlooking the square. The facades of the towers will contain billboards and digital screens for advertising.


Democratic urban design
NOA Architects feel that the development optimises all the elements of "democratic urban design": heritage, open public space and indigenous architecture, as well as encouraging night life in an area that has traditionally died as soon as workers leave the city.
"The overall celebration of heritage is the ensemble of a collection of colonial buildings, modernist buildings and the inclusion of the Heritage Complex which itself is a building that introduces elements and values of indigenous architecture, expressed in 21st century design and construction techniques."

The GPG sees the development as assisting in the regeneration of the inner city.

You know I was just thinking the other day, in comparing South African cities to American I came up with an interesting analogy.

Johannesburg is South Africa's New York

Pretoria is South Africa's Washington,D.C

Durban is South Africa's Chicago/Miami (If things keep on going the way they are going.

Port Elizabeth is South Africa's Detroit.

Cape Town is South Africa's Los Angeles and San Francisco mixed together.

What do you all think?

JHB is Dallas/FW (sprawl)
Durbs is Miami/Tampa/St peters/San diego harbour/Beachs
PE is deffinatly Detroit-Shit hole
CT is san fran/seatle weather and culture

I would say JHB is a mix of new york and LA.

JHB is Dallas/FW (sprawl)
Durbs is Miami/Tampa/St peters/San diego harbour/Beachs
PE is deffinatly Detroit-Shit hole
CT is san fran/seatle weather and culture


That is almost exactally where I would compare the cities as well.

I used to think of Johannesburg being like Atlanta, but seeing as how Dallas is often compared to Atlanta and that they are rather similar, that is acceptable as well.

Look at Atlanta. It has mega sprawl, suburban/car oriented development, a black dominated central business district with whites living to the north in the affluent northern suburbs, the financial center and hub for it's region, large skyline, etc.

Every one of those descriptions fit Johannesburg as well.

You also have to consider that Atlanta plays the same role in it's region (the U.S south with about 90 million people) that Johannesburg plays in it's region, and it should be obvious why I see comparisions between the two.

They are also known as "black meccas" becasue of the large black middle classes who live there, and the large amount of blacks who are moving there.

I have also thought Pretoria could be compared to Sacramento.

Similar populations.

Both capitals, one of South Africa, the other of California.

Both situated closely to the northeast of a much larger/well known metro. Johannesburg for Pretoria, San Francisco/Oakland for Sacramento.

Both have inland locations.

You know I was just thinking the other day, in comparing South African cities to American I came up with an interesting analogy.

Johannesburg is South Africa's New York

Pretoria is South Africa's Washington,D.C

Durban is South Africa's Chicago/Miami (If things keep on going the way they are going.

Port Elizabeth is South Africa's Detroit.

Cape Town is South Africa's Los Angeles and San Francisco mixed together.

What do you all think?


No offense, but I don't think these are even remotley close to reality.

New York is a city with a metro area of over 20 million people in a country close to 300 million. Johannesburg isnt even close to being on the same scale.

Durban could very easily be compared to Miami, but it is not even remotley close to Chicago. Johannesburg isn't even in Chicago's level.

Port Elizabeth and Detroit have some common ground with the auto industry and thier industrial settings. But Detroit has a far, far larger developed population than P.E.

Cape Town and San Francisco is a valid comparision. But S.F and L.A mixed together? No.

i have been to durban....its a touch of miami but far far from it....
cape town is small in comparison to US cities it does have a very light touch of SAn fran...perhaps the inner city is more characteristic of seattle...again on a much smaller scale..
its no secret ive never liked joburrg...and to me its just one big city...thats all and big meaning big in terms of south africa
pretoria id say is just as muchas a hole
PE is dead u cant compare it to detroit....its more like a little US town centre of the USA

PE and Detroit are identical, Auomotive cities, waterfront, dominated by innner city blight. You been to either Detroit or PE?

LOL....Detroit is MORE dead than PE!!!.......Ok...at least AS dead.

PE fits many American cities.

Johannesburg is definately as Mike said...a combination of NYC and LA......having lived in Los Angeles, and visited NYC and Johannesburg both a number of times.....a combination of the two is surprisingly accurate.

DFW and Atlanta both are good comparisons.....but dont lend the same feel or excitement that Johannesburg does.........Joburg gives off "Big City".....Dallas and Atlanta give off..........well.........nothing.

Cape Town fits the San Francisco bill PERFECTLY....even their CBDs are scarily similar.........dont see much relation to Seattle though..in fact very little.


Pretoria is very nice and pleasant, and lends itself a nice feel to it also........def NOT Sac.........I get a sophisticated vibe from Pretoria.....

Durban and Miami are very similar.....though Durban is better IMO.........dont see the comparison to Chicago, but I can see San Diego being compared to Durbs...........


Pietermaritzburg and Columbus, OH........WOW what a similarity.................

and Bloemfontein........could easily be any city in Middle America

Polokwane-Pietersburg is alomst an exact match to Odessa-Midland also..........

Paarl is very close to Las Cruces........same population, SAME climate, many wineries...long history, same look and feel to it...and within striking distance of a big city...(ie. Cape Town and El Paso/Juarez respectively).

:)

LOL....Detroit is MORE dead than PE!!!.......Ok...at least AS dead.

PE fits many American cities.

Johannesburg is definately as Mike said...a combination of NYC and LA......having lived in Los Angeles, and visited NYC and Johannesburg both a number of times.....a combination of the two is surprisingly accurate.

DFW and Atlanta both are good comparisons.....but dont lend the same feel or excitement that Johannesburg does.........Joburg gives off "Big City".....Dallas and Atlanta give off..........well.........nothing.

Cape Town fits the San Francisco bill PERFECTLY....even their CBDs are scarily similar.........dont see much relation to Seattle though..in fact very little.


Pretoria is very nice and pleasant, and lends itself a nice feel to it also........def NOT Sac.........I get a sophisticated vibe from Pretoria.....

Durban and Miami are very similar.....though Durban is better IMO.........dont see the comparison to Chicago, but I can see San Diego being compared to Durbs...........


Pietermaritzburg and Columbus, OH........WOW what a similarity.................

and Bloemfontein........could easily be any city in Middle America

Polokwane-Pietersburg is alomst an exact match to Odessa-Midland also..........

Paarl is very close to Las Cruces........same population, SAME climate, many wineries...long history, same look and feel to it...and within striking distance of a big city...(ie. Cape Town and El Paso/Juarez respectively).

:)
maybe

PE and Detroit are identical, Auomotive cities, waterfront, dominated by innner city blight. You been to either Detroit or PE?

I use to live directly across the river from Detroit.

I am aware of the similarites between the two places.But Detroit is at a much higer level than P.E.

Detroit, is a city that has a population similar to Toronto or Sydney. And the majority of people are very well off there, the poor inner city population is only about a quarter of the entire region. And even these people would be considered very well off by S.A standards.

Plus, Detroit is the focal point for the entire state of Michigan, which has 10 million people. While not at the level of New York, L.A or Chicago, Detroit is a very prominant city in the U.S and the clear second place city in the midwest next to Chicago. Don't forget this is a region with 60 mllion people, the same as the U.K, France or Italy.

While I know the Nelson Mandela metropole is over 2 million, the actual amount of people living at a first world standing of living is very small. Most people are living is horrible conditions in the townships. The actual population of people living in developed areas is no more than 20 percent. Plus, P.E is a clear 5th place in South Africa, with only 45 million.

While P.E is known as the "Detroit of S.A", in reality it is more similar to places like Toledo or Flint, also auto dominated places and at a more realistic level compared to P.E.

P.E is not at the level of Detroit.

I would say JHB is a mix of new york and LA.

Good way of putting it :) Urban like New York, yet so suburbanized like L.A.... and warmer and palms like L.A., etc.


On another note, I think some people here are comparing cities in a "this city is to South Africa what this american city is to the USA", whereas others are doing direct comparisons. :) It's all just peoples' opinions.

I think Joburg is somewhere between New York and Lagos. Multicultural, built-up, rich, funky and classy like NYC. And poor and a bit of a mishmash like Lagos. And it's one big mutha f*cka city with a whole lot of attitude and pazzaz. Joburg drives the rest of SA. Things get done here. :)

Isnt Detroit one of the most dangerous cities in America, with some of the worst levels of gun crime worldwide...remember seeing that in Michael Moore's Columbine thing. He said its one of the worst places in the us, whereas right across the water in Canada, its as peaceful as it gets...

Detroit seems to be a shithole!

It absolutely is

Isnt Detroit one of the most dangerous cities in America, with some of the worst levels of gun crime worldwide...remember seeing that in Michael Moore's Columbine thing. He said its one of the worst places in the us, whereas right across the water in Canada, its as peaceful as it gets...

Detroit seems to be a shithole!


Detroit isn't remotley as bad as South African cities. The murder rate within the city limits is somewhat bad, but the suburbs are virtually crime free.

Compare that to a South African suburb where everyone lives behind walls and razorwire.

Crime wise, even the worst of the U.S doesn't compare to what you get in South Africa, Brazil, Jamaica or Colombia. That being said, it is far worse than what you would ever find in places like Australia, Canada, or the U.K.

Washington, D.C is probably the worst city crime wise in the U.S.

That being said, it is far worse than what you would ever find in places like Australia, Canada, or the U.K.

Washington, D.C is probably the worst city crime wise in the U.S.


Canada is absolutely free of crime... it's a horrible shock and surprise when something bad happens. The UK I believe has much more crime though, and Australia, I have no idea, but I would presume it is similar to the U.S.

--------------------------------------------------

i highly doubt that i would feel safer in Detriot than i do in Durban or Cape Town...maybe even Joburg for that matter.

I never feel threatened here, for its not the place it is made out to be. And i dont live behind razorwire or electric fencing, and very very few houses in Durban have electric fencing...seriously!

I got mugged three times in Miami when i was there...and not once (touch wood) have i experienced anything here.

No offense, but I don't think these are even remotley close to reality.

New York is a city with a metro area of over 20 million people in a country close to 300 million. Johannesburg isnt even close to being on the same scale.

Durban could very easily be compared to Miami, but it is not even remotley close to Chicago. Johannesburg isn't even in Chicago's level.

Port Elizabeth and Detroit have some common ground with the auto industry and thier industrial settings. But Detroit has a far, far larger developed population than P.E.

Cape Town and San Francisco is a valid comparision. But S.F and L.A mixed together? No.

I didn't mean in terms of population, but in terms of influence of their respective countries and similarities.

I compared Johannesburg to New York because they are both the largest cities of their countries. They are both the centers of a megalopolis that they share with a the capital city; both located on the eastern part of the country. Both notorious for crime, yet still loved and awed by many in the country, and seen as the undisputed business centers in their country.

Durban is similar to Miami, visually,(because of beaches and weather etc.) but it is also similar to Chicago in many aspects. It is the third largest city. A major port. Booming construction. It seems like it will be the home to the tallest buildings in the country (Pearl Towers). And it has two airports (Maybe).

I compared Port Elizabeth to Detroit because it is the center of the automotive industry, and they are both poor towns.

I compared Cape Town to being a mixture of San Francisco and Los Angeles, because they are both situated on the western parts of their respective countries. The weather is similar. Cape Town is similar to Los Angeles because it is the second largest city and it has bad traffic. Cape Town is similar to San Francisco in that it is close to a major wine region, both are next to major bays, both are world famous for their natural and man made beauty. Fisherman's Wharf reminds of the Cape Town waterfront etc.

i highly doubt that i would feel safer in Detriot than i do in Durban or Cape Town...maybe even Joburg for that matter.

I never feel threatened here, for its not the place it is made out to be. And i dont live behind razorwire or electric fencing, and very very few houses in Durban have electric fencing...seriously!

I got mugged three times in Miami when i was there...and not once (touch wood) have i experienced anything here.


If I had a house in South Africa, there is absolutley no way I wouldn't have razor wire or an electrified fence. Even in the relativley crimeless small towns. I have read the newspapers too much there and seen and heard too many horror stories not to have anyting less.

I would probably feel safer in an upscale South African suburb than a U.S inner city. But the thing I have noticed, is that the crime rates for the entire South African metro is very similar to the crime rates for the city limits only of the worst U.S cities, like Washington, Miami, or Detroit. In other words, the crime rates for the slums of the U.S cities is about equal to the crime rates for the entire metros of S.A cities.

U.S suburbs have very little crime.

But look on the bright side. You have a beautiful country, and the crime rates there are preventing it from being swarmed by foreigners, apart from the illegal immigrants. If there were too many foreigners there, it would ruin the uniqueness of the place.

Check here. Its like this in most places. the normal suburb areas are low to medium crime. But the high crime rate comes from the informal settlements. sad but true.

well have u been here? cos since u say that u wouldnt live without razorwire and electric fencing, i take u as the paranoid type! Cos i would never put it up, and have never had the slightest problem without it. My windows are barless and i leave them open at night. i dont stress, panic or get uptight about the possibility that my life might be over cos of it. the troubles in South Africa are blown completely out of proportion by a media that is hellbent on selling newspapers and a public that thrives and lives off propoganda.

I'm happy with life, and frankly couldnt give a f*ck about ur paranoia, and alot of other peoples for that matter.

you would look like a real weirdo if you had a huge fence up and electric fencing. check the property sites like pamgolding.com or seeff.com. and look at houses. For instance in the last property insert in the Weekend Argus (Cape Town) there were a couple houses for R20m, one for R30m and one for R45m. And there is a penthouse in the CBD for R50m. And that is just one week. We wouldnt have houses selling for so much if it werent safe.

This was the R45m one:

http://listing.pamgolding.co.za/images/properties/PGP0019472_G0011.jpg

Might I ask if you Flagship have ever been to South Africa? Seeing as you said you've "heard" and "read" all these horror stories.........I'm just curious.

OK, question?

How do we get to have a South African city on the SSC banner! its about time we did!!

i would also like to know that!

OK, question?

How do we get to have a South African city on the SSC banner! its about time we did!!

last time i remember durban was up there...there is a forum about the SSC banners its some where im not sure

Welldone Karin...

Idols: Karin takes the crown
Staff reporter
Mon, 28 Nov 2005

Karin Kortje has been crowned Queen of Idols III, earning more votes than runner-up Gift Gwe and securing a title and prize package worth R3-million.

According to the official Idols website, tears flowed and fans riotously applauded a victory that will not only change this 27-year-old's life forever, but marks the rapid rise of a previously-unearthed South African star.

Karin sang Shirley Bassey's 'Never Never' at a preliminary audition in Cape Town and so moved notoriously nasty judge Randall Abrahams that he praised her with having "the most unaffected voice ever heard in the competition".

After flying (for the first time) to Johannesburg to compete in the Top 70 stage, Randall has backed her from the beginning, comparing her to the legendary Aretha Franklin.

Dazzling in the Top 24 stage of the contest, Karin challenged the idea and importance of an Idols "package" in being voted into the super-talented Top 12 during which, week after week, she received unanimous praise from judges, standing ovations and increasing support from ardent fans around the country, especially from her native Grabouw.

From Grabouw to golden Jozi, apple-packer to diva deluxe, these four months has seen Karin's vocal talent and humility win her the ultimate prize: R3-million and a bright future in the entertainment industry.

Karin's Idol triumph
November 28, 2005

By Charles de Olim

Karin Kortje claimed the 2005 Idols competition even though she was so overcome with emotion that she was unable to finish her new song, I'm So Ready.

Then she was back under the spotlight moments later.

This time it was at a press conference, where she dedicated her victory to her 3-year-old son Cameron. "Financially, I was broke. Winning this has meant that I can prepare for his future. It means that I can give him opportunities I didn't have and that many from Grabouw don't have."

Last night it was down to Karin, the apple-packer from the Boland town of Grabouw, and Gift Gwe.

Karin was first to sing in the finale with her rendition of Aretha Franklin's Natural Born Woman. Then Gift upped the funky stakes and had the women in the audience screaming with his version of Justin Timberlake's Se–orita.
Click here


For the judges' choice, Karin sang Yvonne Elliman's late 70s disco hit If I Can't Have You. Then Gift slowed the pace, turned on the charm and rolled the groove for Boyz2Men's End of
the Road.

The true test was always going to be the new song each finalist was to sing. Karin's I'm So Ready moved judge Mara Louw to
tears.

On her future, Karin was adamant that she would remain humble.
"I will remember what my mother taught me: to always be myself," she said.

Speaking as a representative of Karin's record company, SonyBMG, Idols judge Dave Thompson was quick to allay fears of making her a pop idol.

Though pipped at the post, Gift was upbeat: "Someone give me sunglasses because the future is looking bright," he joked.


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How embaressing was it that they made her try and sing after she won...and then she stood there looking like a complete prat!! They should NEVER have done that to her...after the shock of winning who the f*ck could get on and sing properly? pathetic from mnets side!!

Well done to her...but lets see how well she does...anke like disappeared totally, and good ole heinz keeps popping up here and there...damn he did look good on the show last nite tho...hehe

Great!!...........shes very pretty and hopefully she has talent..........of course she does...she WON hehehe.

And WHO is that guy in the black shirt with the White Jacket?!!??!!?

How embaressing was it that they made her try and sing after she won...and then she stood there looking like a complete prat!! They should NEVER have done that to her...after the shock of winning who the f*ck could get on and sing properly? pathetic from mnets side!!

Well done to her...but lets see how well she does...anke like disappeared totally, and good ole heinz keeps popping up here and there...damn he did look good on the show last nite tho...hehe

i am embarrassed to admit and agree to what u said about heinz...the last part that is....anke---i can officially sing better than her...garreth cliffs mom said anke looked like she escaped from the woods and turned into a tree...her singing...what singing?? yeah it was shit that they made her sing but thast how idols works...its all scripted....even if u fall and break ur neck...colin moss will follow the sciript and get them to sing...
1.heinz hops like a girl
2.heinz had never had any major model gf or any relationship publicized AT ALL....not even rumours...
3. i mean come on just look at the way he stands
4. he is pretty kinda
5. who knows how his voice reaches some of those high notes....

are u thinking what im thinking...hahah

Great!!...........shes very pretty and hopefully she has talent..........of course she does...she WON hehehe.

And WHO is that guy in the black shirt with the White Jacket?!!??!!?

thats our very own ryan seacrest...shit i mean colin moss!! he is so short its not even funny...saw him at vida and at the movies...thought he wud be a bit taller but he is short...apparently bi...

Hey guys, I have question. Who do you all think was the most influential person of the 20th Century?.

Hitler (in a bad way of course). In a good way, there are many people. I go for Madonna. :)

And Colin Moss is an absolute drool, but my favourite SA male celebrity has to be (Dr.) Michael Mol. *lick*

http://www.tomorrowtoday.biz/people/michael/images/michaelmol2.jpg

now michael attends church regularly...and enjoys tennis...rubbed shoulders with him at the VIP section...the kids were noisy so he sent the wife home with them while he stayed behind...very nice guy...good kinda rep for the south african male...intelligent ( doctor mol)...dashing good looks charisma charm style.....etc.etc.etc....something colin moss will try and achieve...

Hey guys..

Since this forum is so uber full of homos, I think we can bounce around in gay abandon because the Constitutional Court has just ruled that the failure of the country's legislature to recognise same-sex marriage is unconstitutional! This means that the legislature is forced to make changes to the current law, which means we'll soon all be able to marry. And I think gay marriage is just fantastic, because I believe the social fibre of gay relationships is generally speaking pretty crap. I think marriage will force many couples to be a great deal more serious about who they shack up with.

Concourt rules in favour of gay marriage
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw1133427421929B252

It is unconstitutional to prevent gay people from enjoying the legal benefits of marriage, the Constitutional Court ruled on Thursday.

It gave parliament one year to rework laws allowing same sex unions. If parliament did not do this in one year, the Marriage Act would be rewritten to include the words "or spouse" to allow these unions to take place.

Last year the Supreme Court of Appeal ruled that two women, Marie Fourie and Cecilia Bonthuys, should be allowed to get married, but the couple later found they were unable to register their church wedding with the department of home affairs.

The departments of justice and home affairs went to the Constitutional Court, seeking leave to appeal the decision on the grounds that only Parliament, not the courts, may amend legislation and that the court had given a ruling on something for which it had not been asked.

In a separate application, the court has been asked by the couple and by an alliance of gay and lesbian organisations for the marriage formula under the Marriage Act of 1961 to be changed to include the words "or spouse" instead of "husband" and "wife".

Same-sex couples may marry at present, but the marriage is not recognised in law. - Sapa

Try Ryk Kneethling!!!

http://www.rykneethling.com/press.html

Great news....Die Kaap is HOLlands! Now, I just need to get out there and buy meself a spouse!!
Seriously, this is great news for our social outcasts and a victory for our democracy. Gays are being given the respect they deserve- that is to make a commitment to the one person that they love. It has never been an issue that affected & should have never bothered straight people.

Now come on darlengs, don't go and try to beat Elizabeth Taylor's marriage record. Let us not now give the straight okes reason to accuse us of abusing our right of marriage! CHEERS tot he QUEERS :) :)

Wow.........Ryk is HOT HOT HOT!!!!!!!..................*drool*

Ok new dress code should go into effect for Ryk............a little bit of stomach should always be showing on that man..........

I'm still looking for Mr Right! But I'll definately choose to get married in South Africa. BTW,
are Afrikaaners as homophobic as they're portrayed to be?

I'm still looking for Mr Right! But I'll definately choose to get married in South Africa. BTW,
are Afrikaaners as homophobic as they're portrayed to be?
Its all just a macho act. In public those Boere like to act all "Mr. I'll moer you", but in private, those they won't mind sharing their boerewors, especially if its the salami size!! :cucumber: :hahaha:

O please come and get married here. Come December 2006, I guess the SA moffies will throw a queen size party to celebrate the official legalization of the gay marriage. It would be excellent if a mass wedding celebration be staged at the Good Hope Castle, to coincide with this event.

Boerewoers...yummy. :)

Michael Mol...to me that man needs something to take that annoying smirk off his face! ooh he annoys me...not a fan...but ryk...swimming with him a few years back was fun... :)

Michael Mol...to me that man needs something to take that annoying smirk off his face! ooh he annoys me...not a fan...but ryk...swimming with him a few years back was fun... :)

ryk is actually a nice guy...have a photo of myself with him..but thats another story for another day...

Fastest Growing Tourist Destinations according to aneki.com

1 United Arab Emirates 30%
2 South Africa 10%

Wanted to post it.

Really? great! I'm not surprised :D

me neither. these could be 2001 stats though.

Yeah, unfortunately those stats are old. SA has had little tourism growth for the last 2 years.

did you watch carte blanch on sunday?about the Cape Town prices.

I'm not sure where to post this - so I'll just ask here.

is anyone from Rustenburg and know about all the development work that has been done there over the last few years and is still going on?

did you watch carte blanch on sunday?about the Cape Town prices.

Yeah, the foreigners they interviewed didn't seem to find it expensive though. Personally I think its damaging CTown's domestic market and possibly causing foreign visitors to have shorter holidays. The lack of flights is far more of a factor eg. the French market is rapidly growing now that there's more flights there - after it showed the greatest drop last year. Interestingly the US market is starting to overtake the UK which has suffered from a lack of slots to protect SAA. Four more weekly slots have recently been awarded but BA and Virgin are no longer interested in taking them or growing the SA market because they have switched their focus to other desitnations such as India.

As a tourist I found CT very expensive compared to Durbs when we were back last. Everything from the price of beers to 5 * accomodation.

Clarabel-

Take a look at the "Other cities and towns" thread. I have posted some info about Rustenburg development there. There isn't tons...but some. :)

HAHA!

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8389/accident8xw1nj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Seems like the driver had a few of those drinks before he set off.

my head hurts. 2:45pm good morning world. oh shit its 2:25pm well hello.

haha. what u been doing?lol

Wassup guys, hey Cape Town Guy, wats "Cape Town 2020!!!" about?

Olympic Bid. Still far away. but in planning. check out http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=161060

haha. what u been doing?lol

dontcha mean who? lol

tsk tsk dude. lol.

woah, its getting hot in here

woah, its getting hot in here

no its just u.

BREAKING NEWS
HARKERB - FROM BLOUBERGSTRAND - WAS SPOTTED IN SEOUL SPREADING SOUTH AFRICA'S GOOD NEWS

http://www.gpsa.co.za/Jokes/ct_marilyn.jpg

BREAKING NEWS
HARKERB - FROM BLOUBERGSTRAND - WAS SPOTTED IN SEOUL SPREADING SOUTH AFRICA'S GOOD NEWS

http://www.gpsa.co.za/Jokes/ct_marilyn.jpg

born in south africa bored in new zealand...nice pic shows us exactly whats in ur mind enigma.

Guys, I am no happier with ENIGMA than any of you... but cut it out!

FUCK YOU ENIGMA YOU RACIST PILE OF SHIT.

If that is not a reason for banning him from this forum I dont know what is. Come on whoever is in charge here you cannot let him get away with that. It is disgusting and plain wrong.

^I am working on getting ENIGMA dealt with, don't you doubt it ;)

Pleeease be good while I am away, because we need to present ourselves well or WE will get banned... so let's be nice, and we'll watch as ENIGMA gets dealt with properly by higher-than-us powers...

I have put in some requests for the administrators to work with.

-thryve

^I am working on getting ENIGMA dealt with, don't you doubt it ;)

Pleeease be good while I am away, because we need to present ourselves well or WE will get banned... so let's be nice, and we'll watch as ENIGMA gets dealt with properly by higher-than-us powers...

I have put in some requests for the administrators to work with.

-thryve

Which really are a attack on Enigma out of Kiwiscrapers ! Thankyou ! :)

^^What? Nevermind, my requests were absolutely reasonable. Overly so, perhaps....

just cheked the moderators' forums... looks like Jan has talked to ENIGMA seriously about it and is working on the issue.

Let's let life get back to normal now :) And LEAVE ENIGMA ALONE so he won't be pressured to fight back again.

My, oh My...I LUVV it! If Elvis can come in different shapes and sizes, why not Marilyn Monroe?
I guess Charlize Theron has been a good inspiration to all South Africans. If she could make it to Hollywood, then a San woman can make to Broadway!!
:tyty: :applause: :applause:

Snow has fallen in Korea and its COLD! Today it was -10C...Brrrr!! A white Christmas, but I'm sure missing sunny SA.

Same here ^^ !

Well seeing it in the Cape Times today confirms the good news. Hummers are going to be sold in South Africa.
___________________________________________

http://vne-resource.iol.co.za/30/picdb/6/7/59228

SA Hummer customers standing in line
[ See related stories ]

September 19, 2005

The first two months' production of right-hand drive Hummer H3s, to be built at the GM SA plant in Port Elizabeth, has already been committed.

Until now, the Hummer has only been available in left-hand drive; when GM announced in April 2005 that South African H3 production for global consumption and export would begin in mid-2006 in left-hand drive and from early 2007 in right-hand drive, the response was immediate

GM says the benefit of local production will bring a substantial price advantage
.

GM says the benefit of local production will bring a substantial price advantage over the largely imported competition. Hummer dealers will be opened during 2007 in major centres throughout South Africa.

More information, video clips and television commercials can be found on the
Hummer website.

http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=1645&fArticleId=2882262
_________________________

In the Cape Times artical it said that they will start early next year, though here is the talking point; they will go for R1.4m!

HUMMER Continues Global Expansion by Adding Assembly in South Africa
H3 will be assembled in South Africa for global markets starting late 2006

7 April 2005: USA - General Motors today announced the next step in the global expansion of HUMMER. Starting late in 2006 a global version of the all-new HUMMER H3 will be assembled at the General Motors plant in Struandale, South Africa. The additional volume to be assembled in South Africa is solely dedicated for export to markets in Europe, Asia Pacific, Middle East and Africa.

When South African assembly begins in late-2006, it will involve components originally produced in GM's Shreveport, Louisiana plant. The new assembly operation in South Africa will focus on the implementation of revised content - such as right-hand drive - exclusively for H3s sold outside North America.

"HUMMER's iconic design and unparalleled off-road performance are recognized around the world," said Susan Docherty, HUMMER general manager. "We just recently announced H3 becoming a global product and the selection of a sole European distributor. The assembly of HUMMER H3 in South Africa is another important step for HUMMER in becoming a truly global premium brand."
H3 vehicles built in South Africa will be exported to left-hand drive markets in Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Right-hand drive versions will be exported to markets such as the United Kingdom, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and other Asian markets.

HUMMER H3 vehicles built in South Africa will be exported to left-hand drive markets in Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Right-hand drive versions will be exported to markets such as the United Kingdom, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and other Asian markets. Another specific product feature for international markets, coming at a later date, is a diesel engine.

Assembly of the H3 is set to begin during the last quarter of 2006 in the Struandale production facility in Port Elizabeth. Annual production volume of the midsize sport utility vehicle homologated for export markets could eventually exceed 10,000 units per year, according to Maureen Kempston Darkes, General Motors group vice president and president of GM Latin America, Africa and the Middle East.

"The H3 exported from South Africa has the size and features to expand the appeal of the HUMMER brand to an international audience, including right hand drive and full global homologation," Darkes said. The HUMMER H1 and H2 models have been sold primarily in the United States and Canada, although GM began exporting HUMMER H2 to countries in Europe, Asia and the Middle East last year.

Robert Socia, president and managing director of General Motors South Africa, called the announcement of the export program a significant achievement for the company. "This $100 million investment into product development and production signifies GM's confidence in our organization and our ability to compete on a global basis by delivering high-quality products that meet global customer expectations," he said. The GM plants in Port Elizabeth currently assemble Opel and Isuzu products.

Plans are in place for the H3 to be retailed in the South African market beginning mid-year 2007. "To this end, we are looking to set up a distribution network that can support the unique nature of the vehicle," said Socia.

General Motors South Africa will be the only manufacturing site outside of the United States to assemble the HUMMER H3. Production of the H3 will begin this spring at GM's Shreveport, Louisiana plant in the United States, with those vehicles primarily destined for markets in the North America, Europe and the Middle East.

H3 is an authentic HUMMER, offering the brand's iconic design and famed off-road capability in a midsize and more accessible package. H3 aims to become the leader in off-road performance among midsize SUVs, just as the H2 achieved that stature among full-size SUVs. In addition, H3 delivers surprisingly comfortable on-road manners and a clean, well-crafted interior. The H3 South Africa export vehicle will initially be available with the Vortec inline 5-cylinder engine, choice of manual or automatic transmissions and a premium, full-time four-wheel-drive system.

http://www.autoemirates.com/International/2005/0407Hummer-SAINT.asp

You gotta love it!

http://www.new-york-bus-charter.com/New-York-Hummer-Limousine_files/Hummer-Limousines-New-York.jpg

http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/10d-20/microsoft-hummer-xbox.jpg

http://www.performancewheelco.com/images/Gallery/04%20Hummer-XS820.jpg

They may be pretty but they are REAALLY bad for the environment (polution), not to mention highly pretentious. Most people who buy them don't use them for their intended purpose (off-road driving). They tend to be used mainly in the burbs by people who just want to be seen driving them but who will likely never go to the bush or countryside. We don't need more contributers to global warming. I wish they get banned.

Is it just a case of luck ?

People troll endlessly on SCC about crime in South Africa. Yet, I never experienced robbery, rape, or murder in Limpopo province, nor did I experience it when I visited Durban this summer. So if South Africa is supposedly this crime infested rat hole, why haven't I encountered any of this? It's not as if I was playing it safe when I went to Durban. I got drunk every night, and stumbled back to my hotel (probably unwisely) drunk every night without encountering any trouble. Is it luck, or are people just being paranoid?

I've been all over the Limpopo Province......loved it.........and never had any troubles whatsoever. I ALSO have been quite abit to the rather dodgy areas of Johannesburg, Pretoria, and also Daveyton.......and though I kept my wits about me......I had no troubles there either. In all actuality.........I think alot of people are being a little paranoid....however, Johannesburg is a big city and like EVERY big city......crime is a risk. So just pay attention, and most likely you wont get hurt.

You have to have a bit of street wise logic, and you'll be fine. We have had one break in, and one attempted in the last like 20 years. None of our cars have been stolen or broken into. None of my family or I have been attacked/raped. I cant recall a time where we have been pic pocketed either.

So i feel rather safe.

I can in all honesty say that I have never been a vicyim of crime in South Africa.
On my last visit to Joburg in August, I actually went to a pub in notorious Hillbrow (at night) with a Joey friend, despite people warning me about not going there. But I just had to experience this place myself. I spent more then a hour there. At first I was pretty nervous. However, the folk were just partying it away and the area was very lively. I let my guard down somewhat and really enjoyed the culture shocking experience. Hell, I've gotten drunk in a Soweto night club as well! The trick to survive in any major city is: don't look naive & overly friendly, be uptight or ostentatious. And always be aware of your surroundings.

I haven't experienced any major crime, but I do know a load of people who have been through the most horrific ordeals. And four cash-in-transit heists a day doesn't exactly speak volumes about Gauteng. It's unfortunate, but it doesn't mean one cannot stop living.

People (particularly on ssc) make South Africa out to be a place where automatically, you'll be affected by crime. And it's not like that. As we can all attest to, it's a very liveable place. It has it's downsides, but the upsides far outweigh them.

We shouldn't run away from the place because of it's downsides.. and we shouldn't deny them either. They're a reality, and in fact give us more reason to stay here and make it a better place. It's far from being a perfect manicured little utopia, but it certainly has the potential to be if only we could make it one... And we'll get there... After all, our economy is growing steadily and crime IS on the decrease.

Joburg, I agree with you totally. Crime is a problem but we must get on with our lives and lets face it living here in SA is a total pleasure. But I, like all of you, wish the crime would go away but then I have been mugged at knife point in New York and had a gun in my face in Washinton DC so every country has its crime problems.

BTW Roman SA I have a range rover sport and I dont feel guilty on account of the environment!!! And the only country driving I do is the drive down to durbs!!!!! 4X4's are awsome and very safe in a crash.

I own a 4x4...but I still do a lot of work on a ranch so I guess I have an excuse. :)

And a Range Rover Sport..........omg I would love one. *Drools*

so were u the bugger that parked has rangie on the island in the middle of umhlanga the other day and caused traffic chaos cos the thing was too long for the spot!

Evil boys!! May you choke on the carbon dioxide you spew forth!! :bash:

:jk:

mmm carbon dioxide... :cheers:

So what cars do we all have?

I've got a silver Audi A3 1.8..

Well, there ARE sex games you can play with carbon dioxide...

Cute little Gustav. :)

^^^ He is a babe isn't he? :)

hehehhehe sadly that wasnt me in umhlanga altho I did break down on the Rivonia Rd the other day. The darn thing is always breaking down!

NEED sleep

Happy holidays everyone!! Hope you all have a good New Year too. Party, party, party!!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
:dance2:
:dance:

PS - why are there half-naked German forum members in the skyscraper banner today???

:wtf:

lol. i have no idea.

I wish everyone a safe and happy holiday! Have fun, and may you be surrounded by family and friends in this joyous season! :)

hhehhehheeh I saw the germans as well. talk about living up to national stereotypes!!! they all looked comical!

HAPPY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL AND THEIR FAMILIES...and a happy prosperous "action-filled" 2006..mwah...all my love...mo rush

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYBODY!

Little chat about 2015 rugby...if u interested

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=300545

We're the eighth most optimist country in the world!!

Upbeat SA toasts 2006
As growth breaks 5% barrier, poll finds South Africans more optimistic than ever
ROWAN PHILP
01 January 2006

SOUTH Africans are more optimistic about the future than they have ever been, with a massive 60% — double the figure for 2002 — saying this year will be better than the last.

This makes South Africa the eighth most optimistic country out of 62 surveyed by Gallup researchers who today release the findings of an international “Voice of the People” survey.

The most optimistic people were found in Vietnam, China, Afghanistan and India.

Africans in general were the world’s most upbeat about economic prospects, with 52% saying 2006 would bring prosperity, compared with only 21% of Americans and 14% of Western Europeans.

Analysts said South Africa’s optimism was based largely on an unexpectedly high economic growth rate of over 5%; the emergence of some two million previously poor people in the lower middle class; and hopes for a year that included mega-projects like the Gautrain and the start of the build-up to Soccer World Cup 2010.

Conducted between December 5 and 8, the survey showed that there were three times as many optimists (60%) as pessimists (20%) about 2006, with a further 20% saying they felt things would remain largely the same.

In November 2002 — a time before the full recovery of the rand, high petrol prices, and a peak in concerns about Zimbabwe and slow government delivery — only three in 10 South Africans were optimistic about the short-term future.

Mari Harris, director of Markinor — who conducted the Gallup International poll in South Africa — said: “I’ve been doing this for 12 years, and I’ve never seen South Africans so positive about the future — the figure is really amazing when you think that there were once actually more pessimists than optimists in the country [in 1993].”

However, Harris warned that researchers had to interview people by phone this year to match methods used in other countries, so that “the large segment” of South Africans without access to phones were not represented.

This week, Dr Ros Hirschowitz, chief director of research for Stats SA, compiled a list of factors for the Sunday Times that “might help to explain the positive outlook out there”:

•The key 5% economic growth barrier was broken last year, with the economy growing 5.1% in 2005;

•The value of all new building plans approved jumped 53% in 2005, from R32-billion to R49-billion — including R8.5-billion more spent on planned residential buildings;

•Insolvencies decreased by 33% between 2004 and 2005; and

•Motor industry sales were 16.4% up in the third quarter of 2005, versus the same quarter in 2004.

South Africans have already gambled on their optimism: new Stats SA data show that private citizens have increased spending on additions and alterations to their houses from R8-billion in 2004 to R13-billion in 2005.

In his New Year address yesterday, President Thabo Mbeki thanked citizens for their “national effort” to break the 5% growth barrier, and said: “We will intensify this united effort ... to pursue the goal the nation has set itself of achieving an economic growth rate of 6% and above.”

Dr Mamphela Ramphele, social anthropologist and vice-chancellor of the University of Cape Town, said: “Come into this country from the outside and you can’t help but feel this wonderful sense of self-confidence — you can see it everywhere.”

Ramphele added that “very significant” to the new optimism was the massive swelling in the ranks of the lower middle class, which was shown by All Media and Products Survey data to have seen more than two million previously poor people — from security guards to informal traders and domestic workers — graduate to a consumer lifestyle since 1998.

“I’ve been in King William’s Town in the Eastern Cape this week, and you can see it in all the mixed-income settlements around this town — all these people who lived with their parents in the ’90s who now have their own house, with a car and access to decent schools.”

However, Ramphele said HIV/Aids remained the biggest threat to “the dream now taking shape”.

She said her own optimism for 2006 had soared this weekend when Membathisi Mdladlana, the Minister of Labour, announced that four members of his family would publicly declare their HIV status tomorrow, and call for a united stand against the epidemic.

Professor Andre Roux, director of the Institute for Futures Research, said with “the state coffers overflowing”, there was a good chance of significant tax relief in the February budget, and that “interest rates might actually decline” if the oil price remained at current levels.

He said 2006 would also see the legal and political fortunes of former Deputy President Jacob Zuma — who faces two criminal trials this year — become tied to the fortunes of the country as a whole.

Roux, however, said there was a serious threat that service-delivery riots and clashes over housing lists seen in 2005 could be repeated or grow worse in 2006.

“On the downside — and this is one of the big things to monitor in 2006 — there is the very real risk that resentment by the still disadvantaged have-nots against the previously disadvantaged haves might reach boiling point,” he said.

Clem Sunter, economic strategist and author of South Africa — The High Road, said the confidence in the country’s future by its citizens was both echoed by and linked to a renewed confidence felt by China, India and the Western powers.

“There is now absolutely no doubt in the minds of Europeans and Americans that we are the number one country in Africa for investment — the classic example is Barclays’ takeover of Absa this year,” said Sunter. “

He said the country had benefited from good performance and good luck — from the unexpected new demand for raw materials by China and India to being spared from disasters.

But he said: “The biggest thing now is that we need a major push to incentivise medium and small businesses; this is what really pushed Germany and Japan after World War Two.”

great read. thanks

Vietnam, China, Afghanistan and India, wow now that's hard to believe, yep us Americans, we know all about the world's doom. ;)

Happy New Year guys! I'm back from my short break...been backpacking around parts of Korea. It wasn't much fun though, as it's constantly below or near freezing point, with chilly winds blowing in from Siberia. Spent most of my times indoors.
Will do more traveling during the spring...can't wait.

^^^Nice article. SA has a very bright future, no doubt.
Sad though, that the youth of today are not pulling up their socks and appreciate the privileges many of us didnt have. An overall drop in the matric pass rate. Read about the school in Mpumalanga which has a 0% matric pass rate, eventhough they had all the amenities, teachers and materials! There cant be any further excuses for non-performance.

Hey harkerb... What are you doing in Seoul, if you don't mind me asking? Working.. or just visiting?

National park for the Wild Coast

30 December 2005

South Africa is to have another major national park, in Pondoland on the Wild Coast of the Eastern Cape. The country currently has 20 national parks, including the Kruger National Park, Addo Elephant National Park and Kgalagadi Transfrontier Park.

Plans for the new park, part of the Wild Coast Conservation and Development Programme, were announced in September by Environmental Affairs and Tourism Minister Marthinus van Schalkwyk after a meeting with the Eastern Cape government in Bhisho.

"Anyone who has spent any time at all on the Wild Coast knows the power of this place," Van Schalkwyk said. "It captures the spirit of untamed mystery, combines it with untouched majesty, and presents it through landscapes of unrivalled natural splendour.

"It is our intention to protect this unique heritage for our generations to come by proclaiming a new national park in Pondoland."

The Pondoland centre of biological diversity and endemism is of international ecological importance, and was recently added to the list of 26 global floristic hotspots.

Instead of using the standard Big Five wildlife drawcard, the park will offer a combination of beaches, marine and estuarine escapes and African cultural heritage, in addition to wildlife viewing.

It will build on the Pondoland Marine Protected Area proclaimed in 2004, and will ultimately extend the development corridor running along the KwaZulu-Natal south coast into Pondoland. In the longer term the goal is to link it to the Western Cape's Garden Route development corridor.

From degradation to development
The Eastern Cape Cabinet pledged its support for the park, which the provincial government will help manage.

"We have seen, in some areas, serious degradation over the past few years as a result of unplanned and inappropriate development, resource overuse and invasive species," Van Schalkwyk said.

This threatened both the area's sensitive ecosystems and the long-term economic prospects of Pondoland communities, he said. "It is ecotourism and related activities that hold the best potential for sustainable economic growth and job creation."

According to Eastern Cape Premier Nosimo Balindlela, the ecotourism potential of the Wild Coast is a key part of the province's 10-year growth and development plan.

"The new park will be an asset for the people of our province and for all South Africans," Balindlela said. "It will be focused on both conservation and ensuring local economic development and social upliftment.

"The project is a positive example of how provincial and national government can work together for growth and delivery."

The government will begin a comprehensive series of public consultations soon.

"The character of the Wild Coast must be fully reflected in our final product," Van Schalkwyk said. "This will require the participation of communities, traditional leaders, women's groups, local businesses, concerned NGOs and others."

Loved the optomistic article and the Wild Coast news. I'm one of those millions super optomistic about SA. I promote the country and sing its praises everywhere I go. The Wild Coast news is great! Thanks for posting both!

Hey harkerb... What are you doing in Seoul, if you don't mind me asking? Working.. or just visiting?
Well, I'm actually studying towards my Masters (intergovernmental relations. Am here to do research with the Seoul University and part-time teaching. Have been to Apec summit in Busan last year and seen most Asia-Pacific leaders, though couldnt get to speak to them!

^^ Sounds very interesting... So then you speak Korean? Are you planning to come back here? I've heard UCT has a crap international relations department...?

ya do u speak korean ...i was planning on doing the same thing with my degree although im still busy learning japanese

oh ps harkerb it would be nice if u came back home some time we're short of skills coz we've started importing people from outside the country

South Africans get belated golds

Members of the South African relay team celebrate their silver medal
US sprinters deliver gold
South Africa's 4x100m relay team have been awarded gold at the 2001 World Championships following Tim Montgomery's doping ban.

Montgomery was part of the American team that won gold in Edmonton but they have been stripped of the title after he received a two-year suspension.

All of his results from March 2001 have now been scrubbed from the records.

Trinidad and Tobago have been awarded the silver medals with Australia being promoted to third.

The United States team won the race in a time of 37.96 seconds, with Montgomery bringing the quartet home.


Montgomery hit with two-year ban
Montgomery was banned together with Chryste Gaines in December based on evidence gathered in the Balco laboratory case.

Neither sprinter tested positive for drugs and both vehemently denied the charges.

The decision to award the golds to Morne Nagel, Leeroy Newton, Matthew Quinn and Corne du Plessis doubles South Africa's gold-medal tally at the 2001 event.

"ya do u speak korean ...i was planning on doing the same thing with my degree although im still busy learning japanese"

What you studying? That's pretty kewl that you're doing Japanese.. i do rather need to do a foreign language. English are limiting. boo.

No, Im not speaking korean yet. Ive been here for just almost 5 months now. Can only about say 'hello' = aneonghaseyo and 'thank you'= gamsamida. I guess I'm language learning fatigue. Have been to Japan for a year before. Can speak bit more japanese though as I had more passion then > 'Watashi wa harkerb desu' (My name is harkerb). Minami Afrika karakimashita' (I'm from South Africa); & importantly> 'Nomitai' = I want to drink!

ps- I'm definitely planning on returning to my beloved SA. One just learns to appreciate your country so much more when outside and getting new perspectives.

ya do u speak korean ...i was planning on doing the same thing with my degree although im still busy learning japanese

Keep learning Japanese and come to Osaka!

Check out this site http://www.new7wonders.com It's a global initiative to find the new seven wonders of the world since only one of the ancient wonders is still standing. You get to vote (by phone) from 21 options.
My votes go to :
Pyramids of Giza
Great Wall of China
Taj Mahal
Angkor
Petra
Christ Redeemer (cause it's beautiful)
Timbuktu (cause it's in Africa)

Some of the finalists are pretty surprising - Stonehenge! Sydney Opera House! Neuschwanstein Castle! It'd be a joke if these became part of the new 7 wonders! I'm also surprised by some the the ommissions such as Empire State Building & St Peter's Basillica

Hey, I've got a question, what happened to De Snor?, I never see him on this forum, I checked if he is a moderator, but no. I just don't know, I see he started this thread though, I just don't know, could someone please fill me in.

the mods from the other areas hardly ever put there noses in hear...its like we are the forgotten land....

De Snor.......still posts in "Rate our skylines".

Hey guys :)

Some more news on South Africa's cultural advancement right here in New Mexico. :)

Right now its Africa Week in Albuquerque, and the overwhelming majority of all the activities and events are South African.

We have 2 new South African Restaraunts...both on Central Ave. and both of which are having opening parties...........boerwoers anyone?

Also...the Afrikaans and Zulu Fair is going on at EXPO! New Mexico!.....essentially.....lotsa food, lotsa curios....lotsa art.....and a lot of fucking Zaffers...........

The World Market is hosting a South African Wine Tasting on Menaul Blvd......and South African owner of Oostendal Wines will be making an appearance at Gruet Winery.


We are having multiple screeings at all the Guild Cinemas....of the movies-

Totsi
Red Dirt
Cape of Good Hope

The performers at our many independant theater include-

DANCING:

Boytjie Cekwana......in three different dances
The Gumboot Dancers of Soweto
Indira Retshani of Chatswood
Renaissance Ballet Company

and others........


Plays by several South African Casts.....including "Suite 21"

and of course.....a performance by Ellisras Gospel Choir

South Africa isnt the only country to foray into Africa Week........performers and cultural specialist come from Nigeria, Ghana, Senegal, Ethiopia, Mali and Morrocco.....

A great way to meet South African Expats.......

oh joy.

oh joy.
Couldnt have said it better myself

Was that just sarcasm?? Don't worry about them, D. Thanks for sharing and for flying the SA flag high. Make sure you remind everyone that Tsosti has just been nominated as Best Foreign Film at the Oscars (along with Charlize for Best Actress, of course).

Don't worry about them


Indeed roman - Bzzzzzt to both of you!!

Keep us posted Nickovich... I've really been surprised by how much South Africa has been represented in ABQ. I should go check it out one day. hehe. :)

Indeed roman - Bzzzzzt to both of you!!

Keep us posted Nickovich... I've really been surprised by how much South Africa has been represented in ABQ. I should go check it out one day. hehe. :)

omg ITS LIKE real african people and they in aAAFRICA (in my american accent)..let me release my innner AAAAFrican.

:sleepy: ^^

Anyways, sounds good Nick... have you gone yet? They have those sorts of things in Toronto alot too. Multiculturalism :P

Hey :)

Yeh I went and saw Cape of Good Hope....liked it so much I bought it ;) hehehe.....saw Red Dirt too......

Caught the the Gumboot Dancers........and the street festival.....but I really wanna catch the plays!!!

Ate at one of the South African restaraunts......Ibhayi Cafe

Ate at one of the South African restaraunts......Ibhayi Cafe

Do they sell Pap & Fleis or Beans & Putu?

oh god mo...

while u at...they should make a bunny chow too!

i love cape town

...

Mo, why are you being so mean to Nick?? :bash: Let's keep it civil. Please? :)

@Durbsboi-....Pap :)

cos cant handle that he is a tosser and likes to rub everyone the wrong way

i love cape town.

Just as a fellow forum user, let's try to stop being so moody. We are, honestly, creating a name for ourselves and it's only going to keep our numbers down.

Just as a fellow forum user, let's try to stop being so moody. We are, honestly, creating a name for ourselves and it's only going to keep our numbers down.
i love cape town

K guys, I hope you like the idea, but I've created a "Your Development Ideas" thread, so we can all have a place to express our urban ideas for South Africa, or even elsewhere if you so please.

-thryve

i love cape town

U obviously got issues

U obviously got issues

u live in durban...u must have many too mr. newbie...

Let's stop being so darn competitive between cities... yeeesh....

well mo did come across a bit retarded with the perpetual "i love cape town"...........

Just my opinion, but I think we all get on eachother's nerves with the competition between cities, regardless of it being Cape Town or Durban. In an alternate universe I think Joburg would be a problem too, but we all seem to get along about it.

If someone says they love their city, or talk about it way too much, just ignore them and know that your own city is also great. Hah hah

-thryve

well mo did come across a bit retarded with the perpetual "i love cape town"...........

k lemme explain..i edited the post...i initially post something which i later thought was not relevant to the thread...as if my comments ever are but...i just replaced it with i love cape town...thats all...

ok lets all hug and smile...and talk about the great WC news for durban and cape town

...or something off topic, like The Shebeen was made for... *PARTY!*

Hopefully we won't start arguing every time we get off topic... remember, we all love eachother, happy happy... Oo lets sing a happy song!

"I love you, you love me, we're a happy family"

make love not war...thats what i say...and some other guys i know lol

"I love you, you love me, we're a happy family"

Ok we will bring peace to the Shebeen, as long as we dont have to sing that F*ckin song!!

To be fair to Mo, he DID replace his original text with "I love CT" (i.e. we're now seeing the lesser of 2 evils). I'm sure there was no offence intended.

Peace everyone??

Hey, Harkerb, got any nice pics of Seoul?

Man, I've got some good Seoul pics. But putting them up is a problem. Ive got my digital camera with me, but not the software. Besides, the OS on the computer I'm using is korean. So, its a nightmare navigating the system.
I'm leaving for my Cape Town vacation soon. So, I'll pick up the software & cable. Hopefully I'd be able to post pics of Seoul and new CT ones.

Is it just me, or has the volume of posting in the SA forum picked up? just take a look at the first 2 pages, no posts later than 2 weeks!!

well its the same guys but we are posting more. I wish we could attract some new members

Yeh we need to do some advertising, get some guys from other threads into here.

Upgraded Limpopo airports on way to financial independence
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The construction of the last three phases in the infrastructure-development programme of the Polokwane International Airport, in Limpopo, is set to start next month, CEO Benjamin Mehale said.

He added that the airport, which currently receives a yearly R20-million government grant, would be self-sustaining by 2008/9.

Speaking at the African Airports World Conference, currently under way in Sandton, Mehale said that the completion of the infrastructure-development programme would enable the airport to generate commercial revenue, which would assist in securing finance to support its financial independence.

Mehale said that the construction was being carried out airport- and aviation-development company Gateway Airport Authority Limited and that construction would be completed by December this year. However, the total infrastructure-upgrade programme will only be completed by the end of next year.

He explained that the second phase of infrastructure development involved building a new passenger terminal, which could handle 4 500 passengers a day and refurbishing and upgrading existing infrastructure to establish an airport city.

Forming part of the airport city is a trade-fair centre, which will be completed by October.

Mehale explained that the centre would have a ground floor capacity of 4 500 m2 and a mezzanine floor capacity of 2 000 m2. The trade-fair centre would also boast a conference centre of 2 800 m2, he said.

The construction of the third phase, which started this month and involved parking and access roads upgrades, would be completed by October, Mehale said, adding that the construction and commissioning of a cargo-handling area and more taxi ways would start later in the year and would be completed by the end of next year.

Further, Mehale said that the Polokwane International Airport has agreed, for the first time in South African history, with law-enforcement companies present at its premises, to pay rent. This would also help the company in raising revenue to assist its drive of being self-sustained by 2008/9.

Knysna Bypass Will Send Prices Up - 2006/03/28


Already one of the most sought after hot spots in the country, Knysna is set to see renewed interest from property investors once the proposed bypass - re-routing traffic around the town instead of through it - is in place.

Peter Maré of Sotheby's International Realty in Knysna says, "Knysna's popularity has increased to such an extent that you are now lucky to find any property priced at under a million.

"Part of Knysna's attraction is its small town feel. The proposed bypass road will preserve this appealing atmosphere that has helped to make Knysna a world renowned holiday destination.

"The high street becomes exceedingly busy during peak season - the main problem being caused by heavy duty trucks that trundle through a very cramped road on their way to surrounding towns and metropole areas.

"Once the road is in place, we expect prices to continue on their unabated upward trend, improving access, drawing increased attention to the area and further boosting the market.

"The Pezula and Simola golfing estates have added to Knysna's growing popularity – thousands of golfers, holiday makers and prospective buyers visit the town each year and many decide to settle here permanently.

"The land necessary for building the bypass has been set aside for some time and a public consultation has taken place - although the outcome has not been finalised as yet the general feeling in the town is one of positivity towards the project".

Maré says in recent years there have been incidents of runaway trucks and there are numerous accidents as the road leads out of Knysna towards Plett – it is hoped that the bypass will improve safety as well as congestion.

Potch Flats Are Hot Property - 2006/03/24


While much of the South African property market is taking a bit of a breather after the headlong rush of the past four years, the Potchefstroom market continues to steam ahead, thanks in large part to the demand for student accommodation.

"Education is big business and the high standards of Potchefstroom University (or Puks as it is affectionately known) attract a large student body, which has many economic spinoffs for the town," says Pieter Britz, co-principal of Homenet Potchefstroom.

He sees two distinct markets in the town right now, one driven by demand for student accommodation, the other more conventional and subject to some extent, to the slow-down that's being experienced by the rest of the country.

"In the conventional market, investors are definitely being more selective and while it's not a buyers' market as such, there's a need for greater realism on the part of sellers who have done very well out of their properties in recent years.

"Peculiar to the Potch market, however, is a severe shortage of land for new development, which underpins prices and ensures greater stability than perhaps may be the case in other centres.

"By way of example, buyers can expect to pay between R260 000 to R440 000 for an 800sqm stand here and building costs in a middle class suburb will be about R3500/sqm, rising to some R6000/sqm in an up-market area.

"New developments are therefore relatively pricey with the result that existing homes are in increasing demand as they are seen to offer good value, although not necessarily all the modern finishes or security aspects."

But it's in the student sector of the market where things are really humming. Puks now has some 11 000 students on campus and the demand for entrance is growing.

"Accommodation close to the campus is therefore at a premium," notes Britz, "and parents correctly see an investment in a studio-styled apartment as offering the potential of good returns down the line that will probably more than cover the cost of the student's education.

"The result is that the cost of a typical student apartment here, often developed on a site where an established freehold home has been demolished, is around R355 000 for 27sqm of living space, or anything between R13 000 and R16 000/sqm!"

Brits says it is interesting to note that demand for commune type accommodation for students is out of style and that newly-built accommodation with all the mod cons is 'in'.

"However owners hoping to realise good profits selling their older home on a large site for re-development into student accommodation could be disappointed. Developers are generally prepared to pay only for the land value and not its improvements."

A further factor driving the student market is the difficulty the local authority has in meeting the demand for all the infrastructure that goes with this type of development.

"The net result of all this is that student-orientated developments are selling as fast as they can be built. In fact we know of schemes with occupation scheduled for 2007 that are already fully sold," says Britz.

oh and mo...just to correct u...yes CT did sell out for Robbie in a short space of time, but the durban venue is holding 25 000 more people for the concert...so things like that do take longer to sell...and anyway, its sold out now...

You are my entertainer...take it i really irk u for u to put that as ur tagline...thats the best compliment... :):):) THANX!!

Didn't think I'd say it, but I'm taking a break from this forum
Nothing new here, accept the constant bickering. Let me know when something of worth is happening :goodnight

I'm not surprised. Hope you're back soon. But true, there isn't alot to pull someone to a place where there is negative energy. I try to steer clear of such things.

I've always had ugly feelings that negative attitudes and bickering are what will kill the SA forum... our numbers drop for that one reason, in my opinion.

-thryve

I've always had ugly feelings that negative attitudes and bickering are what will kill the SA forum... our numbers drop for that one reason, in my opinion.


Our numbers will drop.. and so we need to put a stop to it? Already I've noticed quite a few people not posting that much anymore. It's in your power to save us.... :)

I think there should be a simple rule that you're not allowed to be patronising towards other cities. One cannot say 'my city rocks and your city sucks' because it offends people and create a bad atmosphere that isn't necessary. We all know when we're being patronising towards others, and we should all take the initiative within ourselves to stop being bitchy.

Our numbers will drop.. and so we need to put a stop to it? Already I've noticed quite a few people not posting that much anymore. It's in your power to save us.... :)

I think there should be a simple rule that you're not allowed to be patronising towards other cities. One cannot say 'my city rocks and your city sucks' because it offends people and create a bad atmosphere that isn't necessary. We all know when we're being patronising towards others, and we should all take the initiative within ourselves to stop being bitchy.

exactly. its always "cape town .....and it sucks...but durban...bla bla bla is better"...from the same people. i think my posts stand as proof for not turning everything from a i love cape town but hate durban thread. i mean i cant even say that the stadium in cape town is going ahead(which it is) without everyone saying its a horrible idea and durban is better. durbsboi and dysan have issues which they need to sort out themselves. im staying out of it.

Right.. so now those people who do say such things (and you know who you are - we're not stupid here), you guys need to stop. There IS an underlying resentment towards Cape Town, and it doesn't take an Einstein to work out how it manifests itself. At the same time Mo, your signature is pretty patronising and is very much my city is better than yours is'

There is nothing wrong with debate, but there is a fine line between debating the merits and downfalls of a city, and being patronising towards it.

I think there are some very simple rules to follow:

1) Don't insult other members

2) Don't insult other cities - we're all terribly territorial over our cities, and insults only offends our deepest sensitivities.

3) Rather try to see merits in other cities, rather than only their downfalls.

4) Remember that at the end of the day this forum is not a competition of South African cities - it's a community of SA cities. Treat is as such.

Before anyone notes how arbitrary these rules are, I'd like to remind all of us that we're adults with logic and reason in us. It's very easy to post something onto a computer screen. Before you post anything, think about it and whether it will offend anyone. If it does, just don't post it.

Right now we're a very unfriendly forum with members who quite obviously don't like each other. And it's DOMINATING the forum. For the good of the forum, keep your personal dislikes to yourself.

Simple. :)

Oh and harkerb.. do stay. I most enjoy your posts. :D

...... durbsboi and dysan have issues which they need to sort out themselves. im staying out of it.
I Durbsboi, state today in this the " THE SHEBEEN *General Discussion*" thread, will not bad mouth any other city in this Forum unless the person bad mouths my city:) & Mo please grow up & remove that stupid statement from your signiture, you not doing justice to your beliefs if you going around bad mouthing us like that.

I Durbsboi, state today in this the " THE SHEBEEN *General Discussion*" thread, will not bad mouth any other city in this Forum unless the person bad mouths my city:) & Mo please grow up & remove that stupid statement from your signiture, you not doing justice to your beliefs if you going around bad mouthing us like that.

it wont be there for long, it will be removed when durban sells the last few 200 tickets. then it will no longer be a true statement. its not only bout bad mouthing, its about someone stating facts or some form of info, and someone else coming along and being like "well thats horrible i hope it doesnt happen but my city is better", dont bring ur city into every thing puhlease, it shud all be fine. keep durban stuff outta cape town threads and vice versa.

it wont be there for long, it will be removed when durban sells the last few 200 tickets. then it will no longer be a true statement. its not only bout bad mouthing, its about someone stating facts or some form of info, and someone else coming along and being like "well thats horrible i hope it doesnt happen but my city is better", dont bring ur city into every thing puhlease, it shud all be fine. keep durban stuff outta cape town threads and vice versa.
Okay sister,

basically robbie has no market in durbs whats wrong with that i don't like him anymore old stuff was good but no his just another pom here for a tan ....just like bollywood would have a small market in ct *points @ 2 idoits durbsboi and mo*

Life for S Africa lion murderer

A South African man convicted of murdering a man whose remains were found in a lion enclosure has been sentenced to life in prison.
White farmer Mark Scott-Crossley and an employee beat up black former worker Nelson Chisale, and threw him to lions.

Scott-Crossley had earlier sacked Mr Chisale, who was murdered when he went back to the farm to get his belongings.

The case has highlighted race tensions that still exist in the South African countryside 11 years after apartheid.

Court proceedings on Friday were delayed while Scott-Crossley was married to Sim Strydom, whom he reportedly first met when she visited him in jail.

Crowds outside the court in the town of Phalaborwa celebrated when the sentence was announced.

"Let him rot in jail," someone shouted as they left the courtroom, reports the South African Press Agency, Sapa.

'Extreme punishment'

Judge George Maluleke said he was satisfied that Scott-Crossley deserved the strongest punishment he was allowed to impose, which was reserved for "monstrous" crimes.

"No crime fits this description more than the one before me and there is no doubt it would warrant this extreme punishment," the judge said.


Scott-Crossley's accomplice, Simon Mathebula, was sentenced to 15 years in prison, with three years suspended.
"We did expect a heavy sentence," Scott-Crossley told journalists.

"We are sorry that the family didn't accept our offer of financial compensation. It was not an effort to try and bribe them, but we really feel sorry for them and we are going to fight the sentence," he said.

Mr Chisale's niece Fetsang Jafta said: "I'm satisfied with the outcome."

Mr Chisale was sacked late in 2003. In January 2004, he returned to pick up his belongings at the farm near the Kruger National Park in the north-east of the country.

There he was beaten up by Scott-Crossley and Mathebula, his employee.

They tied him up and then took him to a nearby lion breeding centre, where they threw him into an enclosure.

The court was unable to establish whether Mr Chisale was already dead when he was thrown into the enclosure, as Scott-Crossley claimed during his defence.

The only remains recovered were a few bones and some shredded clothing.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/africa/4297284.stm

Relief at SA lion murder verdict
The niece of South African lion murder victim Nelson Chisale has expressed relief that the lengthy trial is over.
Mr Chisale's former employer and a fellow worker were both convicted on Thursday of murdering Mr Chisale and feeding his body to lions.

"I'm happy it's finally over," said Fetsang Jafta, Mr Chisale's niece who had identified her uncle's remains by means of gaps in his teeth.

The employer, Mark Scott-Crossley, was found to have masterminded the killing.

He could face a life jail sentence, but his family said the case was not over until sentence was passed.

Friendly

"I've travelled a long way, sitting on a hard bench every day listening to what they did to my uncle," Ms Jafta told the South African Press Association.


The truth and lies will not mix and can never mix
Ivy Thenga
State prosecutor

Ms Jafta was reported to have been talking in a friendly manner with Scott-Crossley's mother, Noreen Breeds, who attended the trial only on the final day.
"I can't judge her because of what her son did," Ms Jafta said.

Mrs Breeds herself told Sapa that for her family, the judgement did not represent the end of the trial.

"We're not going to get weak now," Mrs Breeds said.

Sentencing is expected in August. Scott-Crossley faces a mandatory life sentence unless he can prove "substantial and compelling" reasons for the court to decide otherwise, his attorney Charl van Tonder told Sapa.

Expected

Defence advocate Johann Engelbrecht said the defence team would now be studying the judgement to prepare to present evidence in mitigation of sentence.

He added that the case was "not finished yet".

Joina Mathebula, wife of Simon Mathebula who was also convicted of murder, was reportedly close to tears outside the courtroom, and made no comment on the verdict.

Mathebula's defence counsel said of the verdict: "We expected it".

State prosecutor Ivy Thenga said she was satisfied the law had taken its course, after a six-week trial with 23 witnesses whose testimony was sometimes contradictory.

"The truth and lies will not mix and can never mix," she said.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/africa/4497411.stm

There doesn't need to be fingerpointing. But, for the SAKE OF THE FORUMS, not that I want to do this, but from here on:, if anyone badmouths eachother's cities then I should be notified by the person offended, and if an apology or (damn)-good reason isn't presented to me by the offender, they will be brought to the SSC admins and dealt with however it is necessary, including brigging, and if a repeat offense, being banned. The latter is quite uncommon, luckily.

I will be adding this to the forum rules. I am sure there will be no complaints, as most sections on SSC have similar rules already.

Let's get back to life... there's too many exciting developments in Cape Town, Durban, Johannesburg, and other parts of South Africa for us to get distracted by our own worn-out emotions, hey?

-thryve

ps.

in the Welcome + Rules page an amendment has been made for the wellbeing of people from CT, Durbs, and Joburg:

"4.) In the South Africa forum, we do not insult eachother's cities or put one above another. Each is an important part of our country, which is one mosaic of different places. If a forumer has or is blaspheming a city or flaunting endlessly, that is reason to notify the moderator. Apologies or written defenses can be made by the offending forumer, but if they do not stop, a brig or ban will be imminent, in accordance with site administrators' feelings on the situation."

Back on topic now...

well I belive in freedom of spech and opinion and you are more than welcome to ban me if I say that someting in CT or jozi or even durban or wherever sux .
This is childish and its all part of the good humor of the SA forum. Its not like the arabs vs US or German vs enlish hate threads on this site but is more a good humoured thing.
pick up your skitrts ladies and learn to box clever.

No I disagree Giles.. Freedom of speech and opinion is limited. The commottions over the last few days has long since gone past humour and is just mindless bickering. And it makes the SA forum look really stoopid.

i have nothing more to say, i will keep anything related to anything other than Durban locked up, for whatever i say is always twisted into something else. if you people cant talk seriously about a topic without going OTT on my ass, then i feel i'm dealing with people that dont have many discursive skills. Society thrives on debate, questioning and probing. I dont regret my comments in anyway and feel that you lot are the ones that took things to the extreme