Solution for Miami: Destroy the "bad areas"

[Lee]

Lets face it, Northern Downtown is still butt ugly with horrible neighborhoods surrounding it. After the Heat games, you see the homeless and mentaly disturbed wondering around, scaring people. This should not happen in a city which is setting up to be a world class city! We should physically tear down these bad areas surrounding the AA arena, and northward; at least to an extent where you don't have these new places (PAC, Mariana, etc) surrounded by bad neighborhoods. Plus, the torn down areas would leave room for more expansion. In typical fascist form, developers should buy out the land, evict the people, and then make somethin' nice :) The city of Miami should start getting tougher in their policies too. If I were Mayor, I would mandate the incarceration of the homeless until proven that he/she has the mental and financial ability to remain on the street. Low-cost housing should also be suggested. A good idea would be to replicate Chinese low-cost apartments replacing the ugly houses. I think BobDreamz once said that Overtown should be demolished as well.

Does anyone agree?

[Lakelander]

I can't support the complete tearing down of a historically black neighborhood, which the city is partly responsible for its condition today. What you're calling for is urban renewal, and its been proven for decades now, that this is a bad idea.

[south florida dave]

I couldn't disagree more.

Come on, man, think it through a little more. That's just horrible.

[smiley]

Two problems here -
1) don't tear it down if you have nothing to immedaitely replace it with or you just get a bigger hole - that is "urban renewal" - thanks LBJ
2) IF you tear down a low income neighborhood and replace it with expensive stuff the people have to go somewhere. Why don't you just build them better stuff and impose restrictions - like no felony record -, like they do almost everywhere else these days. Even better sell tehm something at a low price - homeowners invariably take better care of their property than renters.

[brickell]

In fact, the area will be harder to change, because so much of it has been gutted already. There's a lot of empty lots just waiting to be built on. Also, there's quiet a bit of ghetto housing. The 60's showed us that they don't work, building even more won't fix the problem. There's some great buildings and blocks through Park West and Overtown. They should be cleaned up, restored and revitalized not demolished. The area will eventually gentrify, there's not much of a way around that, but I hope it's character remains for years to come.

[streetscapeer]

In fact, the area will be harder to change, because so much of it has been gutted already. There's a lot of empty lots just waiting to be built on. Also, there's quiet a bit of ghetto housing. The 60's showed us that they don't work, building even more won't fix the problem. There's some great buildings and blocks through Park West and Overtown. They should be cleaned up, restored and revitalized not demolished. The area will eventually gentrify, there's not much of a way around that, but I hope it's character remains for years to come.

I agree with Brickell...the areas of Overtown and Park West, if revitalized (correctly), would become an architectural haven in South Florida. There is no need to tear down the neighborhood for development when there are already plenty of weed-infested lots. With all the development going on right now on/near Biscayne Blvd, there is no doubt it'll west and jump-start a renewal in those areas. This place must yuppify to provide all the amenities these thousands of new residents need to get about their life....just like Coconut Grove, Midtown, and the area around the Design District (all of which are currently experiencing gentrification)!!

@Lee, Where you see a swath of yuckie ghetto...I see a mound of potential!!

[ace1974]

I’m betting, sadly, that as Downtown Miami builds out more and more, Overtown will have its poor neighbors pushed out for new, middle-to-upper class development. Tax base trumps humane hearts in Miami.

[smiley]

IF it happens organically, what is the problem? I only see a problem if you bulldose the place or the government takes all the property then sells it to developers.

[ace1974]

not really a problem, unless you happen to be one of the poor folks now displaced. not exactly the upwardly mobile crowd we're dealing with here. and since its most likely that they aren't property owners, the boom will be a bust for them.

[Jasonhouse]

I thought that there was this "downtown overtown" town center project, that was going to invigorate the area?

I personally have no problem with basically ALL of the inner city ghettos going, in favor of properly priced market-rate redevelopment. The fact that thousands of people lived on subsidized prime real estate for decades is, IMO, a contributor over why cities are generally broke. (costs money to take care of them, while dually reducing property tax revenues)... The low-end development should be happening in the least desirable locations, like the suburbs and exurbs.

But like Smiley said, this should generally be happening quite naturally, not in a smash and build mega plan. And I don't at all favor spending millions of taxpayer dollars to give out builder incentives to make it happen. The city should be cleaning up the infrastructure and improving it, and the rest will take care of itself.

[renner01]

what we need are some middle income affordable condominium projects in the overtown area. AS soon as that happens you'll see more middle income young professionals in that area. Location is great. It is pretty sad when the "affordable condominium" projects like uptown lofts /midtown lofts .these projects are still over 200,000 although they advertise them for mid 150,s yeah right! maybe for 2 days

[Jasonhouse]

'Affordable' ain't gonna happen. It just ain't gonna happen.

[smiley]

Sure, it sucks to be poor, but if you have no money you can't be that picky. I can't live in the richest part of town. You go where you can afford. IF that happens to move, so be it. It happens to people of all sorts of incomes everyday. Just because you are poor does not give you a special status, except to teh extent that the Federal government requires a certain number of housing units to be "affordable."


Only wacked out academics think that mixing extremely high income with extreme low income will work in any sustainable arrangement. It won't. something will give after a while. The economic forces will not allow that mix.

[Bobdreamz]

Lee i never made such a comment.
I said it was only a matter of time before Overtown would no longer exist due to developing demand in the city which is a shame considering it is one of Miami's historic neighborhoods.
The amount of construction rising on Biscayne Boulevard alone will change the entire area.
As for your assertion of horrible areas I've been in these areas on business and they are far from horrible...if you want a clean & septic city move to a city that fills the bill!

[ace1974]

"Only wacked out academics think that mixing extremely high income with extreme low income will work in any sustainable arrangement. It won't. something will give after a while. The economic forces will not allow that mix."

Actually, most pre-war development was mixed between the rich, middle and lower classes. The lower classes rented out the rooms over the garages or in the brownstone basements, and the middle class got to raise some cash from the rentals. The lower classes, not being sequestured into one or two massive crack-town districts, had examples to aspire to be (if not in politics, then in $$$). This is not conjecture, nor the work of academics-on-drugs, but document historical trends of development. Check out "The Geography of Nowhere" by Kunstler. It’s not that the economic forces wont allow them to mix, but rather, the powers that be want to keep everything as it is.

And so what if Florida isn’t New York? We should proud to be Florida…we’re a damn cool state! Even Tampa!

[smiley]

Read the book years ago. However, 1) you said middle and lower and two the empirical evidence of pre-war (I guess you mean before WWII) does nto bear that out as any type of universal pattern. Quite the contrary - though it may have existed in some places at some times it is nowhere near uniform.

and you misinterpret my comment on NYC.

[bobo]

I can't support the complete tearing down of a historically black neighborhood, which the city is partly responsible for its condition today. What you're calling for is urban renewal, and its been proven for decades now, that this is a bad idea.

Absolutly agreed!

Yeah we are all waiting for Miami to pull another "Model City" stunt right?

I wish all the lower income areas were cleaned up but yeah there are many problems standing in front of that.

[nimbyhater]

urban renewal happens naturally as it has in coconut grove, the design district, and wynwood... the government can not simply say, ur poor, go live somewhere else, hey rich people, come live here... thats not how it workds, i dunno wat the fuk country ur living in

[Roark]

Please...Nimby...this is a family forum. Can you watch your misspellings, typos, grammatical errors, capitalization errors, and language abortions? Por favor.

[nimbyhater]

language abortions? lol wat creativity, sry roark, this is just quicker, and my time is a very precious comodity, u can make it out

[urbanaturalist]

Well since some folks are for transforming Overtown out of existence (translated into no black/Haitian/Afro-Caribbean people), how about building a mall in the middle of Little Havanna, you know to get rid of that "cubano" blight, or better yet lets go over to Homestead and knock down some homes b/se they are not cute enough for me. I'm sure Overtown will get developed, but if should be mixed income (the term shouldn't be used to coalesce those being developed upon, but actually implemented).

Of course I'm just being cynical, all the cultures in Miami have played a huge role in the development of the city in little over a 100 years existence. Miami's going to be and even more a magnificent city if the cultures can continue to collide respectfully and peacefully and fairly.

[miamicanes]

how about building a mall in the middle of Little Havanna, you know to get rid of that "cubano" blight
Have you seen the cost of property in Little Havana lately? Little Havana is expensive now... Besides, there's nowhere in Little Havana with non-dysfunctional freeway access sufficient to support an upscale regional mall that could ever hope to justify the property values in the area they'd have to pay to build it. Little Havana desperately needs a plaza or two like Dadeland Station to supply its increasingly upscale residents.

The problem is, there aren't many properties in Little Havana that are big enough and have sufficiently good road access to support them. Maybe this time around, whomever owns the property that used to be Miracle Center will finally realize that NOBODY in Miami will ever pay for parking when shopping anytime soon, turn it into a stacked Target/Best Buy/Borders/Ballys with free parking, and watch it blossom into a profitable and popular retail location.

[dave8721]

People will pay to park to shop at some places, but definetly not at Target.

[I-275westcoastfl]

No most people won't^
Anyway its a bad idea florida is having a phase of buying cheap properties, remodeling and selling for more that should have a decent effect eventually.

[Tampa813]

In fact, the area will be harder to change, because so much of it has been gutted already. There's a lot of empty lots just waiting to be built on. Also, there's quiet a bit of ghetto housing. The 60's showed us that they don't work, building even more won't fix the problem. There's some great buildings and blocks through Park West and Overtown. They should be cleaned up, restored and revitalized not demolished. The area will eventually gentrify, there's not much of a way around that, but I hope it's character remains for years to come.

But in order for all that change to manifest, the criminal element has to be eliminated. It does no good to pour millions of dollars into revitalizing an area when the criminal element is still there.

[rider_of_rohan]

^^^ Does bulldozing an area actually seem like a reasonable option to you? How about your area next?

[jdnn]

Think about it this way... bulldoze all those poor areas "infected" with homeless people and "mentally disturbed" folks....

Then they'll end up in Coral Gables.

O_o SCARY!

Let's keep the buildings up in the ghettos!

[rider_of_rohan]

shuffling the problem hasnt solved it before, but hey I dont live in Miami so try what you want. Build one area up, tear another down...strange idea of progress.

[Jose Perez]

Tearing down ugly neighborhoods will only cause those people to go live in nice neighborhoods and mess them up.That's not a "smart" solution.They should keep it like our latin countries where the poor neighborhoods are secluded from the city.Unfortunately most American cities have ugly neighborhoods in their downtowns.How could you seclude that?

[DGM]

Secluding the poor from the rich isn't necessarily a virtue Jose. Have you ever considered that this seclusion might be the cause of extreme wealth inequities in South America and ultimately the poor health and economic status of South America. I think that South American cities need to work harder to embrace the poor.

[jdnn]

Secluding the poor from the rich isn't necessarily a virtue Jose. Have you ever considered that this seclusion might be the cause of extreme wealth inequities in South America and ultimately the poor health and economic status of South America. I think that South American cities need to work harder to embrace the poor.

And how are you suppose to embrace the poor when Miami's pricing them out of their own homes? It's happening at other American cities as well.

[logybogy]

What I don't like is when poor people bitch and complain about everything and fail to take personal responsibility for their situation. So you are uneducated, never went to college, and can't get anything more than a minimum wage job. Why the hell are you living in one of the highest cost of living places in the country? To me, that's idiotic.

Minimum wage is the same in Jacksonville as it is in Miami but housing costs are 1/2 less. They could probably even afford to even buy some land and plop a trailer in rural Putnam County or Clay County for under $40K on minimum wage. That's affordable housing. To me, it would be preferable than living in gangland dodging bullets, and dealing with the hookers and drug dealers each and every day. It's not in Miami, but nobody is holding a gun to these poor people's heads forcing them to stay in Miami.

Polk County outside Orlando and Tampa is another very affordable place.

Sometimes you got to take personal responsibility for yourself and your situation to improve your situation. Bitching and whining isn't going to do it. And waiting for the government to give you affordable housing is a joke.

[DGM]

The U.S. is in a much different economic state then South American countries though. The poor people in South America don't have a Jacksonville to move to.

[rider_of_rohan]

^^^ If we talk about it enough they will move to ours.

[jdnn]

Plus let's not forget that the poor in South America still happen to be educated. Not all poor are poor by choice. There's no "personal responsibility" they can take upon except that of moving to a new country where their knowledge would not be recognized. There has been too many poor people I've met could easily gain highly respectable jobs here if their education they earned in their country was recognized.

If we could solve that problem, and get their education to be recognized, I'm sure a city like Miami would have a rosier picture.

[pawnmaster]

A few observations:

The "poor" we are referring to in Miami type cities are those in downtown. Most South Americans who travel here tend to rent in areas such as southwest dade. I agree that foreign education should be easier to validate but the poor in downtown areas could indeed add some personal responsibility. Most of these guys are citizen last I read. Aside from the handicapped there is a fair amount of healthy individuals... Heck, one guy asking for money was doing head stands and walking on his hands....i cant even do that anymore lol.

I am also from latin america and we (south americans) should know better than keeping the poor isolated. We dont need that mentality here in the US. This is the reason why we have a strong middle class, this is what works.