TTC Naming Contest, article from Torontoist.com:

Name the TTC's New Tunnel-Boring Machines

http://torontoist.com/attachments/SteveKupferman/20100910boring.png
Illustration by Brian McLachlan/Torontoist.

The TTC is holding a contest to drum up name suggestions from the public for a pair of tunnel-boring machines recently purchased to help carve out the forthcoming Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension. Expected to be completed in 2015, the extension will add 8.6 kilometres to the Yonge-University-Spadina subway line, bringing it to Vaughan Metropolitan Centre. The contest literature stresses that the massive tunnelling machines—which look like enormous, weaponized marshmallows—need names, because naming boring machines "is tradition." In the public interest, we've compiled a few examples of boring-machine names that have already been put to use elsewhere in the world, so everyone can eliminate them from consideration from the get-go—because the names of our new subterranean diggers shouldn't be repeats of previous ones.

That would be boring.
Near Hamburg, Germany, a research facility is in the process of constructing a 3.4 kilometre tunnel to accommodate a powerful X-ray machine, for use in studying microscopic objects and chemical reactions. Their boring machine is known as TULA, which is short for "TUnnel for LAser."

Australia has done plenty of tunnelling over the past five years, and they never fail to name their machines. An underground stretch of highway between Brisbane city and its airport is being dug by Sandy, who weighs in at a svelte 3600 tonnes. The Clem Jones Tunnel, which allows cars to travel between Woolloongabba and Bowen Hills, also near Brisbane, was chewed out by Matilda, a four-thousand tonne machine, with a 12.4 metre cutting head. Rocking Ruby and Wonthaggi Maggie are digging twin tunnels for a desalination project in Victoria, while a cable tunnel in New South Wales was bored by Mary Ann.

Gabi 1 and Gabi 2, twin sisters, dug through more than seven kilometres of gneiss apiece to create a pair of new traffic tunnels in Switzerland.

Closer to home, a Richmond Hill grade three student gave the name "Motorclara" to a machine that was used to dig sewers in the Regional Municipality of York. Big Becky is in the process of digging a ten-kilometre power tunnel under Niagara Falls—a project that has faced years of setbacks, because rocks from overhead have been tumbling onto her backside, creating a dangerous situation for workers.

Rosie, who is in the process of digging a sewer tunnel for Portland, Oregon, tweets status updates.

Extrapolating from these examples, it seems likely that winners of the TTC's contest will be female names that are either somewhat "strong" sounding ("Rocking Ruby"), or are ironically petite ("TULA"). Enter the contest right here, for a chance to win a "token of appreciation" and the opportunity to attend the launch of the two machines.



CORRECTION: SEPTEMBER 10, 2010 "Sandy," the Brisbane airport link boring machine, is carving out a subterranean motorway, and not a rail tunnel, as this post originally stated.

By Steve Kupferman on September 10, 2010 4:35 PM 12

From TTC web site:

Tunnel Boring Machines Naming Contest
Choose two winners!

Online voting October 8 to 22

Thank you to all those creative people who participated in the Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension's naming contest for the twin tunnel boring machines. From September 10 - 24th, you submitted over 700 pairs of names.

The judging panel has selected ten finalists and now it is your turn to vote for two winning names, one for each pair of tunnel boring machines.

The votes will be tallied and the two winners will be contacted in early November. Winners will be invited to attend a special event where the tunnel boring machines will be on display.

NOTE: Only one vote per person is accepted and no automated voting is allowed.

For further details, go to www.toronto.ca/tbmcontest

Vote online from October 8 until midnight on October 22, 2010.

The votes will be tallied and the two winners will be contacted in early November. Winners will be invited to attend a special event where the tunnel boring machines will be on display.

Ten finalists are listed below.
Select your two favourites:

Bitsy and Bory

Dewey Digg and Dug Itall

Diglet 1 and Diglet 2

Ebb and Flo

Holey and Moley

Hufff and Puff

See and Saw

Slice and Dice

Tweedledig and Tweedledug

Yorkie and Torkie
http://wx.toronto.ca/inter/ttc/name_entry.nsf/Vote?OpenForm

I didn't know that the tunnel boring machine at DESY (thats the research facility in Hamburg the article talks about) is named TULA.

Much more famous in Hamburg is the tunnel boring machine TRUDE (Tief Runter Unter Die Elbe, roughly translated: deep down below the elbe river). "Trude" can also be an oldfashioned german name.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Hamburg.Trude.wmt.jpg/800px-Hamburg.Trude.wmt.jpg

Well, without knowing the story behind each name-proposal I would choose "holey and moley"

Grinder!!

John Holmes! :D

^^HAHAHAH!!!

What horrible finalists though... Like the Toronto Rocket, I think the TTC is just bad at choosing names.

Why?

Maybe I should go down to my furnace room and give my hammer and drill names, nevermind it's pointless.

Actually how about we call it the Rob Ford, he seems to be good and digging himself a little deeper everytime he opens his mouth so it makes sense.

And, he is bullheaded with a skull thicker than the Canadian Shield! :yes:


ooops... I was trying to be nice about him. Failed.

Looks like a new addition to Local 113's posse.

I call it the TakinABreaker

Cheech and Chong.

Booth Monkey
Coffee Run

Rob Ford

Smash N' Grab

LpNd4yh6R_E

In Switzerland miners watch as the drill machine "Sissi" breaks through the rock to complete the tunnel. With a length of 57 km, it's the world's longest tunnel.

7 years for 57km... About the same for our Spadina extension (given inevitable TTC-style delays) at a measly few kms.

As CC has put it so eloquently on UT: Toronto has so many issues to deal with, they're nothing like Switzerland. All Switzerland had to deal with was a mountain. Toronto has water tables.

Toronto has so many issues to deal with, they're nothing like Switzerland

Like Federal funding (or more correctly lack therein), for starters.

That's bullshit. It's lack of will and political incontinence.

Get an aggressive mayor who aggressively lobbies the governments for stable transit funding and doesn't cheap out (LRT) and you'll get the whole city behind you. Nothing gets most Torontonians dreaming like a large subway network. Believe me.

I can agree with that.

That's bullshit. It's lack of will and political incontinence.

Get an aggressive mayor who aggressively lobbies the governments for stable transit funding and doesn't cheap out (LRT) and you'll get the whole city behind you. Nothing gets most Torontonians dreaming like a large subway network. Believe me.

That's dreaming in Technicolour.

That's dreaming in Technicolour.

Yeah, it sure is... Provincial government is battling a large deficit and has downscaled a much more modest transit plan. The federal government is battling a deficit of its own, and historically the federal government has rarely been interested in local issues, especially if they related to Toronto. Simple fact is this: there's no money for it, and Toronto cannot go billions of dollars in debt to build subways, and the provinces and the federal government are absolutely unwilling to do the same.

@Filip: Mayor Miller certainly lobbied hard and long both levels of government for increased transit funding. The LRT wasn't the first choice but the federal government was absolutely unwilling to listen, and the province wanted a dramatically cheaper plan; even that much cheaper plan is unlikely to materialize, at least in its current form. We don't have governments that are benign to Toronto, and it doesn't matter much whether the Cs or the Ls are in the office, at least most of the time.

^^ What he said, times 2

Bullshit.

Don' tell me we're the only city in the world that can't fund transit, because it's starting to look this way. There are numerous, creative ways to fund massive expansions - also, scrap the fair wage policy! These guys are getting so grossly overpaid that I feel like I should be a blue collar worker so I get such a nice, comfy, unionized job.

Bullshit.

Don' tell me we're the only city in the world that can't fund transit, because it's starting to look this way. There are numerous, creative ways to fund massive expansions - also, scrap the fair wage policy! These guys are getting so grossly overpaid that I feel like I should be a blue collar worker so I get such a nice, comfy, unionized job.

Filip, I detect quite a bit of (misplaced) anger in your post. Please tell us what 'creative' ways you have in mind. I'm not sure what you have against the 'blue collar worker' but if you truly think such jobs are so fantastic, why not do them???

It all begins and ends with the fair wage policy. No wonder our subways are costing upwards of 300 million/km if we're paying that high. Not to mention the TTC's absolute insistence on tunnelling everything. A vast portion of the Spadina extension could've been cut and cover, saving a substantial amount of money - but nothing. It's all in a tunnel, under parking lots and fields.

What I have against blue collar workers is I'm going to be spending 6 years in school, paying over 100k for an education so I can have a salary advantage in the future. However these guys working in manual labour with a high school education (if, at all) are making the same amount, and more. Not fair, absolutely not fair.

They have families. You don't and probably never will.

I've never truly understood the logic that anyone who does not have a university degree deserves to slave away at poverty wages for the rest of their life, and anyone who has a four year Baccalaureate can hop on a gravy train fitted out with LayZeeBoy rocker recliners. :lol:

It may have been that way when Louis the Fourteenth was on the throne, but things have changed since.

It all begins and ends with the fair wage policy. No wonder our subways are costing upwards of 300 million/km if we're paying that high. Not to mention the TTC's absolute insistence on tunnelling everything. A vast portion of the Spadina extension could've been cut and cover, saving a substantial amount of money - but nothing. It's all in a tunnel, under parking lots and fields.

Can you inform me of any study on cut and cover vs tunneling? As I am a very soon to be planner, I know something about EAs, so any EA done on the Spadina line would certainly include such options; don't forget that the city cannot just cut and cover through property it does not own and that expropriation of vast swaths of land are not going to happen. Expropriating even one property is a problem.

What I have against blue collar workers is I'm going to be spending 6 years in school, paying over 100k for an education so I can have a salary advantage in the future. However these guys working in manual labour with a high school education (if, at all) are making the same amount, and more. Not fair, absolutely not fair.

Filip may I ask what you do or will be doing? How much will you be making? If you are paying 100k+ for schooling and it's going to take 6 years, then it's probably law, maybe MBA? Average starting salaries in those professions in Toronto are 90k for former and well over 100k for latter. Of course, it may be something else. In any case, those blue collar workers make nothing even close to that to start and never really will except years down the line and with generous overtime.

It has taken me 4 years to do my BA and is taking me over 3 years to finish my planning MA; when I exit, I'll be making about $40,000-60,000 in my first year. Someone with an equivalent education studying, say, business or engineering can easily double or triple that. But it's my choice. Nobody held a gun to my head to do what I'm doing (I imagine the same is true in your case).

Besides, there's an issue of what we get for the money. Investment bankers may make 200,000-400,000 to start in some cities and portions of that field shoulder a large part of the blame for the global financial meltdown. They're all educated and many paid for that education, but many are also productivity parasites, far more so than some blue collar worker than makes a middle class salary and helps build our infrastructure.

The TTC doesn't do studies that make sense. They just decide on something and then try to prove it by bending facts.

I am finishing university this year and then going into an accelerated MBA program (hopefully) at Schulich. It's nearly 70 000 for the 2 year MBA program, that plus my undergraduate schooling is over 100 000. I expect to be making A LOT when I graduate simply to write off these expenses. I don't understand how a ticket collector can make over 100k.. It's not like these investment bankers don't have a difficult job. I would rate it as one of the most difficult and stressful out there - obviously there should be a good pay..

Btw, your login name is Grof.. It means duke (or something aristocratic, can't find the direct translation off the top of my head) in Serbian; where are you from?

The TTC doesn't do studies that make sense. They just decide on something and then try to prove it by bending facts.

I am finishing university this year and then going into an accelerated MBA program (hopefully) at Schulich. It's nearly 70 000 for the 2 year MBA program, that plus my undergraduate schooling is over 100 000. I expect to be making A LOT when I graduate simply to write off these expenses. I don't understand how a ticket collector can make over 100k.. It's not like these investment bankers don't have a difficult job. I would rate it as one of the most difficult and stressful out there - obviously there should be a good pay..

Btw, your login name is Grof.. It means duke (or something aristocratic, can't find the direct translation off the top of my head) in Serbian; where are you from?

An EA isn't something that the TTC can undertake and rubber-stamp. The province is always involved as well as multiple outside consultants, and they certainly don't always see eye to eye. My own guess, without knowing the facts (as transit planning is not my primary interest) is that lack of available public land on the preferred route is preventing the cut-and-cover option.

I understand your frustrations with paying so much money and investing time into an education, but once again, it was your choice. I have solid statistical skills, I could have finished a 4 year degree and started the process to become an actuary. But this did not interest me, so it's not where I went. I'll be earning a quarter of what I could be making as an actuary, just as an example.

Moreover, there are people who pay tons for their education, get a Ph.D. and earn peanuts. It's how it is. There has never been a nice straight line between education attainment and money, though education is still associated with increased income.

A ticket collector making over 100k was on the news: there is a reason for that. It's not common. Less than 5% of all city workers earn more than 100k. 725 TTC employees out of more than 12,000 (staff AND management) earn over 100,000 and operators mostly due to absolutely massive overtime. That amounts to 6% of their labour force -- hardly out of line. Obviously, TTC should hire more staff and automate some of its operations but it's not like working that kind of overtime is a walk in the park.

As for investment bankers, you missed my point. Boneheaded decisions by those investment bankers have led us to one of the worst recessions on record and the banking reform down south has been a complete joke, so we might still see an Act II at some point. Why do they 'deserve' to get paid a lot of money when so many thrived/thrive on what is in essence completely parasitic behaviour that cost the society at large a lot of money? I don't think hard working criminals, for example, deserve good remuneration.

Finally, yes, you translated that correctly, I hail from Sarajevo originally.

Globe article from this summer:

Army of Burrowing Machines to be Unleashed Under GTA
John Lorinc
Globe and Mail Update
Published Friday, Jul. 30, 2010 1:46PM EDT


Within a few years, a small army of boring machines will be burrowing under parts of Greater Toronto thanks to a wave of transit and sewage-main construction projects.

At a news conference at Lovat Inc.’s Downsview plant this morning, Toronto Transit Commission chair Adam Giambrone said the eight machines that will work on the Spadina subway extension and Eglinton LRT projects will make the city into “one of the biggest production sites of tunnelling in the entire world.”

The Spadina machines will be delivered by the first quarter of 2011, said Dick Cooper, president of the Chicago-based Lovat, a world leader in the tunnel boring industry. The company’s Toronto plant employs 400 workers and can produce about 25 machines per year.

The Eglinton LRT excavators, which actually belong to Metrolinx, will be about 6.7 metres in diameter and capable of moving about 500 cubic metres of earth per day. Construction under Eglinton is expected to begin in the spring of 2012.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/army-of-burrowing-machines-to-be-unleashed-under-gta/article1657524/

Downtown relief line would make more sense, no?

Downtown relief line would make more sense, no?

If I had a dime...

If I had a dime...
heheheh a dime of what? ^^

I only ask because I'm often wondering what all these planners and decision makers are smoking/snorting.

my guess is that there will be a little extra pressure to get these Transit City projects started ASAP so that it will be "too late to stop them"

By the way, did they actually decide on the names for the Tunnel Boring Machines? All of them? Cause I would have loved it if they chosen Sarah (Thompson) and Jane (Jacobs) amongst the others.

Cheers, m

No wonder our subways are costing upwards of 300 million/km if we're paying that high. Not to mention the TTC's absolute insistence on tunnelling everything. A vast portion of the Spadina extension could've been cut and cover, saving a substantial amount of money - but nothing. It's all in a tunnel, under parking lots and fields.

You pretty much hit it right on the money. The Spadina extension is probably the worst way to throw away $2.6 billion:
- tunneling under industrial parks and empty land
- all for projected daily ridership of 80,000... after 5 years
However, cut and cover only saves about $14 million per km. An elevated system would have costed half as much:
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2452/34617409.png
http://www.drlnow.ca/costanalysis.html

Sheppard was also a colossal waste of money. $934 million for a stub serving only 47,000 trips, half the ridership of the $1.1 billion Millenium line, on less than 1/3 the length.

A comparison of recently proposed or completed subway projects in North America places the Yonge and Spadina extensions pretty close to the top of the list in terms of cost per km. The only other subway proposals shown in the $300M+/km range run through intricate downtown areas, not through suburban sprawl and hydro corridors.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9168/72293533.png
http://www.drlnow.ca/costanalysis.html

Oh, and wrt blaming it on "no federal funding"... Vancouver only got $417 million from the feds for the $1.76 billion Canada line (all 2003 dollars), and is promised $350 million for the $1.4 billion Evergreen line. Both proportionally less than the 1/3rd promised for the $1 billion East Sheppard LRT, or the 1/3rd share of the $2.6 billion Spadina extension. No they didn't pony up $6 billion for Transit city, but still...

heheheh a dime of what? ^^

I just meant the amount of times its brought up. If I had a time I'd be rich!

Well when looking at areas downtown most of the big buildings, density are built around the subway lines so if there were more the construction of tall buildings could be more spread out but thats just a thought.

You pretty much hit it right on the money. The Spadina extension is probably the worst way to throw away $2.6 billion:
- tunneling under industrial parks and empty land
- all for projected daily ridership of 80,000... after 5 years
However, cut and cover only saves about $14 million per km. An elevated system would have costed half as much:


Looking at the alignment, I do not see where you can build elevated sections without significant impact to industrial, residential, Downsview Airport, and the University. I was thinking you can build over the 407, but even there would require a massive bridge, and transistion portals on each side.

The point of elevated guideways is that you can build right over the 1-2 storey industrial. This is commonplace in Vancouver and suburban metro lines in North America/world-wide. In this case, between all the empty land, 8-lane arterials, hydro corridors, existing rail corridors that pass under the freeway, and the extremely low densities, an at-grade/elevated line should be an especially obvious answer.

No other city in the world today would consider building underground subways in exurban office parks. This is ridiculously wasteful and corrupt, coming from a city that is screaming the poor card.

No other city in the world today would consider building underground subways in exurban office parks. This is ridiculously wasteful and corrupt, coming from a city that is screaming the poor card.

The other two levels of government supporting the subway to Vaughan are also screaming the poor card, and blaming everyone but themselves for it.

The point of elevated guideways is that you can build right over the 1-2 storey industrial. This is commonplace in Vancouver and suburban metro lines in North America/world-wide.

The Skytrain does not fly over buildings. Between building maybe, but not over. I actually do not know of any elevated system that passes over buildings in North America. Can you provide an example? I am just curious. I want to see how they did it. Seems to me, the agencies would prefer to have a ROW totally clear of obstacles, and would avoid building over buildings.

In this case, between all the empty land, 8-lane arterials, hydro corridors, existing rail corridors that pass under the freeway, and the extremely low densities, an at-grade/elevated line should be an especially obvious answer.

Can you find an alignment from Downsview that will takes advantage of this? Keep in mind the length, and width of our subway trains.


No other city in the world today would consider building underground subways in exurban office parks. This is ridiculously wasteful and corrupt, coming from a city that is screaming the poor card.

Reading the EA for the extension, the TTC did look at all the options, and concluded the best route was to go totally underground. What can you do? Why are you blaming just the city? The province, feds, and York Region are all chipping in, and if you look at York's EA, they picked an underground alignment above Steeles Ave. too. Toronto is not solely to blame.
Personally, I cannot find any where along the alignments alternatives where an elevated line can be built without serious disruption to the industrial area, and impact to the residences.

deleted

The Skytrain does not fly over buildings. Between building maybe, but not over. I actually do not know of any elevated system that passes over buildings in North America. Can you provide an example? I am just curious. I want to see how they did it. Seems to me, the agencies would prefer to have a ROW totally clear of obstacles, and would avoid building over buildings.

Skytrain goes over buildings near Gilmore and Sappterton stations, with columns built on parking lots of various commercial/industrial properties along the rest of the length. Towers are built over the guideways. Some residential developments have to be designed to allow space for future stations. Chicago's L also goes over buildings. Not to mention numerous systems in Asia. A generously-separated right of way is ideal but is impossible for 100% of the route. In many cases you have to buy the ROW from private property. Even better is if future development is integrated into the station and surrounding tracks. If it comes to it, demolishing a couple of warehouses in Vaughan isn't exactly a tragedy, especially knowing that the intent is to redevelop the whole place anyway.

Can you find an alignment from Downsview that will takes advantage of this? Keep in mind the length, and width of our subway trains.

This took me 10 minutes, and there's probably a dozen other ways to route this:
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1180/spadina.jpg

Even this I don't believe the above is necessary until many years down the road, when there is demonstrated redevelopment of the industrial sprawl. Right now it's a massive leap of faith, which has not been earned. Look at the brand new tract homes on the university land south of campus... the original agreement was for high-density, but demand influenced supply:

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7939/11004936.jpg

If elevated or at-grade mass transit is not good enough for exurban hinterland in Tdot, consider that underground tracks consist of only 10% of Chicago's L, 16% of Skytrain, and less than half of the "subway" networks in Washington DC and Los Angeles.

The only reason why the city and province is on board is because of vicious lobbying from York University (which opposed a BRT route to it specifically to position itself for a vastly costlier alternative), and suburban politicians like Greg Sorbara from Vaughan, who happens to own some of what will soon become the most convenient warehouses and empty fields in the world.

Downsview station is already in the middle of nowhere; to extend it further into nowhere in such luxurious fashion, instead of building already-crucial projects like the DRL, is blatant corruption.

^^ Would you want an elevated line right in front of your house? Didn't think so.

The elevated portions wouldn't go in front of any houses.

That said, those are some hella randomly placed stations in dleung's plan.

The stations aren't any more randomly-placed than any of the currently-proposed stations. Both the current alignment and my alignment is in anticipation for future redevelopment of those lands. There's nothing at any of the station sites right now. Sheppard West station is situated next to an airport, halving the development potential to one side of the street from the get-go.

No one ever designs transit on the premise "this hostile surroundings can only get better". The only possible worse way to spend transit money is to build subway into completely barren wilderness. When there's no money for the DRL or Eglinton crosstown, why no one is crying bloody murder over this extension is perplexing.

^^ Would you want an elevated line right in front of your house? Didn't think so.

http://www.rllmukforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif Even if my proposal had elevated portions in front of peoples' houses... what's so special about Toronto that it can't accept something that is commonplace worldwide and in all the cities previously mentioned?

The stations aren't any more randomly-placed than any of the currently-proposed stations. Both the current alignment and my alignment is in anticipation for future redevelopment of those lands. There's nothing at any of the station sites right now. Sheppard West station is situated next to an airport, halving the development potential to one side of the street from the get-go.

Actually it is. One of the strengths of the TTC is its bus & subway connectivity. Your plan has stations placed on random back streets in the middle of a giant industrial complex, making that impossible. The existing plan has stations on Sheppard, Finch, and Steeles, and the 407, easily connecting to multiple high-traffic bus routes. Yours also ends a few hundred metres short of what should be the centre of Vaughn Corporate Centre.

Even if my proposal had elevated portions in front of peoples' houses... what's so special about Toronto that it can't accept something that is commonplace worldwide and in all the cities previously mentioned?

Just because its other places around the world, doesn't mean its the right way. So there's no reason to make it the right thing to do here. How would you feel purchasing a house, only to have your view tarnished by an aboveground line?

Just because its other places around the world, doesn't mean its the right way. So there's no reason to make it the right thing to do here. How would you feel purchasing a house, only to have your view tarnished by an aboveground line?

People don't really buy houses for the view. ;)

Its the noise that would be the issue.

People don't really buy houses for the view. ;)

Its the noise that would be the issue.

Granted, but its still kind of a piss off if every time you walk out your house you're greeted by the underside of the Gardiner (more or less).

We're talking about a single row of old pre-war bungalows ripe for redevelopment, staring across the street at miles and miles of industrial sprawl... pretty sure it can't get much worse with a subway track. Of course every industrial complex and suburban SFD neighbourhood in the world can have a fully underground subway stop in your imaginary world with trillions of dollars to throw away, but yeah... u guys can't even afford necessary projects like the DRL and the Crosstown, so...

Actually it is. One of the strengths of the TTC is its bus & subway connectivity. Your plan has stations placed on random back streets in the middle of a giant industrial complex, making that impossible. The existing plan has stations on Sheppard, Finch, and Steeles, and the 407, easily connecting to multiple high-traffic bus routes. Yours also ends a few hundred metres short of what should be the centre of Vaughn Corporate Centre.

You're right, I could have moved one station closer to finch, eliminated another one altogether, and not pull a Canada-line on the terminus station (shorten by several hundred metres). But note that I already said the line shouldn't exist until the distant future, after some development gets underway and a real street grid emerges...

Forgot to address your other point about the connectivity. That's the inherent flaw in the logic behind the Spadina extension. Subway isn't commuter rail; it's designed predominantly for local traffic. The majority of ridership should be dependant on the development within walking distance of the stations, not on bus passengers transferring from Richmond Hill. Otherwise, those buses could have easily continued onto a slightly-less god-forsaken place like Downsview station, to transfer.

Forgot to address your other point about the connectivity. That's the inherent flaw in the logic behind the Spadina extension. Subway isn't commuter rail; it's designed predominantly for local traffic. The majority of ridership should be dependant on the development within walking distance of the stations, not on bus passengers transferring from Richmond Hill. Otherwise, those buses could have easily continued onto a slightly-less god-forsaken place like Downsview station, to transfer.

Have you ever taken the tube? Commuters, commuters, commuters.

Forgot to address your other point about the connectivity. That's the inherent flaw in the logic behind the Spadina extension. Subway isn't commuter rail; it's designed predominantly for local traffic. The majority of ridership should be dependant on the development within walking distance of the stations, not on bus passengers transferring from Richmond Hill. Otherwise, those buses could have easily continued onto a slightly-less god-forsaken place like Downsview station, to transfer.

dleung, we 100% agree. I found your alignment puzzling as a subway route, and indeed it doesn't fit into the TTC network at all.

But, the broader question, does the subway here make sense can, of course, be easily answered. No, no it doesn't. If there ever was a case for LRT, this is it. Independent planning proposals for an LRT corridor north go back a long time, with early plans starting up maybe some 10 yeas ago. Yes, it wouldn't have the subway like alignment, although some proposals called for basically a commuter LRT with only a few stops between Downsview and York. Of course, York has repeatedly said no to such a deal and that they wouldn't give land for any such idea on the university if such a plan was implemented. The right thing to have done is to have told them nicely that they then get NOTHING. However, we all know whose riding it is slightly north of York. Subways are a political coup bar none, and so indeed we will be getting a subway to middle of nowhere. And DRL is probably never going to appear.

Metrolinx was supposed to solve this, especially by integrating commuter and local transit. So far, it doesn't have much to say for itself, besides the planning of Eglinton crosstown, which might not even go ahead.

It's a mess, and it will continue to be a mess because transit continues to be a game of political football in this province, especially since there's a subways or nothing mentality that exists and which doesn't make much sense. We'll likely be getting a fair bit of nothing after York, hopefully not.

Have you ever taken the tube? Commuters, commuters, commuters.

dleung doesn't have to take the tube. Vancouver's own system functions as a commuter line for long stretches. It doesn't mean that's a smart design, though, and definitely not something we should be importing to a considerably larger city/region.

Have you ever taken the tube? Commuters, commuters, commuters.

Agreed. Anyone who has actually ridden the subway knows it is heavily used for commuters. Kind of impossible not to notice, actually.

Agreed. Anyone who has actually ridden the subway knows it is heavily used for commuters. Kind of impossible not to notice, actually.

Of course. But should it be a commuter line? That's what Spadina is basically becoming. What are the off-peak numbers going to be on such a line? I don't know off the top of my head, but I'm guessing off-peak on Spadina is already severely low as it is. Subway to everywhere can't happen and so won't happen. What we need realistically is:

- Waaaaaaaay more commuter rail, and commuter rail integration
- Targeted subways and possibly hybrids, like DRL and Eglinton crosstown
- LRT where appropriate

I'm not with you... why shouldn't a subway system be for commuters? Are subways in Moscow, New York, London, Paris or Chicago not heavily used for commuters?
A commuter might have to only go a few kilometres, and not necessarily 25 km, thus a subway is ideal.

I'm not with you... why shouldn't a subway system be for commuters?

A subway line is for commuters as well, but it should not function as a commuter LINE. Basically, if we know that a proposed subway is going to have severely low off-peak ridership numbers, then why build a subway? It's the wrong solution to the problem.

The entire point of Public Transit is to create a link for the general public. If subways weren't for commuting, why would lines in Paris, Chicago, New York and London (places that frankly, have done public transit right) extend their lines to boroughs and "suburbs"? Perhaps there isn't a large suburb area there now, however keep in mine that this project isn't going to be done overnight. In Shanghai (I believe, it could be another Chinese city) they created subway lines under nothing but fields in full anticipation of future developments. Ottawa had a similar problem where when planning the O-Train, the original plan took into account the population spread of the year it was drawn up, however was expected to be completed nearly 10-15 years later. If anyone knows Ottawa, they'll know its an ever expanding city, growing outwards. You HAVE to build for the future with transit, or you're screwed.

Off-peak hours were slow for all subway lines here back in the 50's. Development was planned to follow the subway lines. Isn't that what we call planning for the future?

A subway line is for commuters as well, but it should not function as a commuter LINE. Basically, if we know that a proposed subway is going to have severely low off-peak ridership numbers, then why build a subway? It's the wrong solution to the problem.

There are plenty of lines on the Tube that are entirely for commuters. Where is the fault in that? I think that's smart planning, taking the stress off other lines.

Off-peak hours were slow for all subway lines here back in the 50's. Development was planned to follow the subway lines. Isn't that what we call planning for the future?

Yes, but that was 50 years ago... We need to plan perhaps looking 20 years in advance.

There are plenty of lines on the Tube that are entirely for commuters. Where is the fault in that? I think that's smart planning, taking the stress off other lines.



Yes, but that was 50 years ago... We need to plan perhaps looking 20 years in advance.


I'm agreeing with your point, not the reverse. I know it was 50 years ago, but the principle of planning for the future remains the same today. If we are only trying to build for currently populated areas we are behind the curve.

I'm agreeing with your point, not the reverse. I know it was 50 years ago, but the principle of planning for the future remains the same today. If we are only trying to build for currently populated areas we are behind the curve.

Oh sorry! :( My mistake! I must have misread that haha. Many apologies :D

Whooo, lots of things to respond to. Aieee!

The entire point of Public Transit is to create a link for the general public. If subways weren't for commuting, why would lines in Paris, Chicago, New York and London (places that frankly, have done public transit right) extend their lines to boroughs and "suburbs"?

Because all three cities' suburbs serviced by the metro tend to be highly developed nodes which have little to do with semi detached housing and townhouse developments that are going on around Vaughan and York U. We're talking about two entirely different densities here.

Now, will we see more high density development there once the subway goes up? Slightly, but areas currently serviced by the Spadina line have hardly experienced a rush of development south of Eglinton, and even Eglinton is a question mark.

We know what the Spadina line extension will be for: getting to and from downtown and it will be dead off-peak just like it already is. This is a place for LRT connectors and commuter rail, not subways. It makes no sense at these density levels, and the current development patterns suggest that what we're going to get at most is some nodal development, but certainly nothing to justify anything close to a subway line.

Perhaps there isn't a large suburb area there now, however keep in mine that this project isn't going to be done overnight. In Shanghai (I believe, it could be another Chinese city) they created subway lines under nothing but fields in full anticipation of future developments.

This is not really a valid comparison. The Chinese 'new cities' are basically clusters of high-rises, very little in common with the development we see in the city's suburbs here and where, if they occur, tend to be located in grouped nodes and corridors. We're talking about the kind of urbanizing population growth inapplicable to this context.


Ottawa had a similar problem where when planning the O-Train, the original plan took into account the population spread of the year it was drawn up, however was expected to be completed nearly 10-15 years later. If anyone knows Ottawa, they'll know its an ever expanding city, growing outwards. You HAVE to build for the future with transit, or you're screwed.

But the O-Train was never the highest-order project, but an LRT, so we're not comparing like with like. That is the whole problem: the York extension makes absolutely no sense at current or future densities.

Off-peak hours were slow for all subway lines here back in the 50's. Development was planned to follow the subway lines. Isn't that what we call planning for the future?

Subway lines built back in the 50s followed the then-current developed nodes. The Bloor subway followed the loaded Bloor streetcar, just as the Yonge subway followed the Yonge streetcar. The Spadina extension that followed was built precisely on the same erroneous principles: that it will follow the new expressway node and that lots of development would go around it. It's never been a great success north of Eglinton, and adding endless northward expansions isn't going to fix it.

There are plenty of lines on the Tube that are entirely for commuters. Where is the fault in that? I think that's smart planning, taking the stress off other lines.

I cannot think of a single Tube line that is essentially a commuter line with very low off-peak numbers. The decentralized nature of metro London makes me very suspicious of such a claim, but if you can give me a link, I'd love to take a look. It doesn't sound like a good idea, if true.


Yes, but that was 50 years ago... We need to plan perhaps looking 20 years in advance.

20 years from now, Toronto will not be so much more populated (absolutely nothing like the growth currently occurring in Chinese cities), and the vast majority of density outside of the old city will still be relatively low density tract development.

But the O-Train was never the highest-order project, but an LRT, so we're not comparing like with like. That is the whole problem: the York extension makes absolutely no sense at current or future densities.



I cannot think of a single Tube line that is essentially a commuter line with very low off-peak numbers. The decentralized nature of metro London makes me very suspicious of such a claim, but if you can give me a link, I'd love to take a look. It doesn't sound like a good idea, if true..

In Ottawa, the O-Train was a top priority for transit, so I don't see how it can be seen as anything non-comparable. The Spadina extension is a sensible vision into the future of a city that will see its population increase by up to 500,000 in the next decade. Ottawa's O-Train was a necessary plan for a large city without proper rapid transit.

As for the Tube, the Metropolitan line is a prime example of a line that runs far from the suburbs and then into the city proper.

In Ottawa, the O-Train was a top priority for transit, so I don't see how it can be seen as anything non-comparable. The Spadina extension is a sensible vision into the future of a city that will see its population increase by up to 500,000 in the next decade. Ottawa's O-Train was a necessary plan for a large city without proper rapid transit.

Whoaaa!!! By 2021, Toronto's population is expected to increase by less than 60,000! Less than 150,000 by 2031, and that's I think a pretty optimistic projection.

As for the second part, I think you missed my point. The O-Train was never going to be a subway. It was always envisioned as a light rail project.

As for the Tube, the Metropolitan line is a prime example of a line that runs far from the suburbs and then into the city proper.

Metropolitan line precisely provides the example of London as a metro region with multiple central nodes all over the place. Metropolitan is a commuter line, but also very much a local metro line.

Whoaaa!!! By 2021, Toronto's population is expected to increase by less than 60,000! Less than 150,000 by 2031, and that's I think a pretty optimistic projection.

I should have been more specific, the metropolitan of Toronto.

Гроф's points seem to be completely lost in a sea of platitudes about commuters and planning for the future.

Of course exurban commuters connect to subway when they have the opportunity, because it's there and no transit authority would waste resources on redundant service. But you don't build subway specifically for those kinds of commuters.

Planning for the future... we used to have money to do that back when labour and materials are cheap and the everything was happy-go-lucky in the 50's. Today, it's just a matter of playing catch-up, at least for North America. Bottom line is... why would you build fancy subways to nowhere, ostensibly for "future" demand, when you can't even afford to build transit for current demands (ie: DRL, Crosstown)?

It's pointless to compare what's possible through Chinese slave labour and iron fist regimes, and what is realistic for North America.

I should have been more specific, the metropolitan of Toronto.

Indeed, there is no doubt that we need a better regional transit network and integration, with better local transit nodes and connections, availability, and frequency of commuter rail. None of that has much to do with the Spadina line extension.


Planning for the future... we used to have money to do that back when labour and materials are cheap and the everything was happy-go-lucky in the 50's. Today, it's just a matter of playing catch-up, at least for North America.

Even back then, Toronto's subways went where there was already demand. The earliest line that didn't follow that mode of thinking was Spadina, and it can hardly be called a raging success. But yeah, it was at least relatively inexpensive.

We really suffer from subways to everywhere mode of thinking. And with that, we get them almost nowhere. And when we do get them, we get them were a politician of the day wants them to go, not where they are actually needed.


It's pointless to compare what's possible through Chinese slave labour and iron fist regimes, and what is realistic for North America.

More to the point, the type of rapid population growth Shanghai is experiencing has very little to do with the type of growth Toronto is experiencing.

Skytrain goes over buildings near Gilmore and Sappterton stations, with columns built on parking lots of various commercial/industrial properties along the rest of the length. Towers are built over the guideways.

I checked google maps, and the Skytrain does not go over buildings near the stations. If fact, the alignment looks lke it deliberately avoids buildings. IF you look at the distance between support columns, there is no way the alignment would be able to built over building, without a support being placed in the building. ICTS does have a smaller turning radius than our larger subway trains, so the alignment can fit around buildings easier, but over buildings? I have not seen any evidence.

Chicago's L also goes over buildings. Not to mention numerous systems in Asia.

I do not think any alignment goes over buildings, unless the build is narrow enough to fit between the suppports.


A generously-separated right of way is ideal but is impossible for 100% of the route. In many cases you have to buy the ROW from private property.

Hence why agencies prefer to tunnel. Avoids the need to purchase land, or expropriate properties. Metrolinx is currently having problem with expropriating a few house along the Weston corriddor. Imagine the problems the TTC will have with businesses!

If it comes to it, demolishing a couple of warehouses in Vaughan isn't exactly a tragedy, especially knowing that the intent is to redevelop the whole place anyway.

If you superimpose the alignment on a current aerial photograph, you'll notice the alignment actually runs THROUGH the buildings on the Caterpillar compound. There isn't even going to be any demolishing of buildings. I could see an elevated structure from Hwy 407 station to VCC.
Of course Caterpillar IS a large company to deal with..

Your alignment is going to require the expropriation, and demolition of many businesses, and residential areas. You will not have the development potential at Sheppard West. The curves look too sharp for the trains, you have to consider there is a minimum turning radius for the trains to reduce wear, and tear on the tracks, or the trains will have to reduce speed. The stations are out of the way, in secluded areas, and there is no connection with the Finch bus/LRT. Why would you avoid the inter-connectivity that is so important in a transit network? This alignment is proof it is not as easy as you think. If transit fans can find faults with this alignment, engineers are going to toss it out on first glance.


If elevated or at-grade mass transit is not good enough for exurban hinterland in Tdot, consider that underground tracks consist of only 10% of Chicago's L, 16% of Skytrain, and less than half of the "subway" networks in Washington DC and Los Angeles.

100% of L.A.'s subway network is underground. Much of Chicago's system was built in the early-mid 20th century. The newest line, the Orange Line runs mostly along a rail ROW. L.A. has an extensive LRT network. LRT trains are smaller, and thus require a smaller ROW than subways. Same goes with ICTS technology. Smaller trains, less space required.


Downsview station is already in the middle of nowhere; to extend it further into nowhere in such luxurious fashion, instead of building already-crucial projects like the DRL, is blatant corruption.

YOu would think Downsview would be a lesson for those who believe subways automatically bring development. That was the whole point of Downsview, to bring development. There is some development occuring, but is not Transit-Oriented. This is why subways must never be seen as development tools. They are not.
I agree the DRL is more important, but you have to consider the DRL simply fell off the radar when Bloor-Yonge was renovated, and the crowding eased. Attention was focused elsewhere. The money could have been better spent, there is no doubt, but the subway is coming. We have to make the best use of it.

Of course. But should it be a commuter line? That's what Spadina is basically becoming. What are the off-peak numbers going to be on such a line? I don't know off the top of my head, but I'm guessing off-peak on Spadina is already severely low as it is. Subway to everywhere can't happen and so won't happen. What we need realistically is:

- Waaaaaaaay more commuter rail, and commuter rail integration
- Targeted subways and possibly hybrids, like DRL and Eglinton crosstown
- LRT where appropriate

We think alike!

The amount of money York Region is paying for the subway, the region could have built a LRT network in the region. York is convinced building a couple of subway lines is going to reduce congestion in the region, and I think they are in a disappointment.

Гроф's points seem to be completely lost in a sea of platitudes about commuters and planning for the future.

.


Don't forget, however, that the "sea of platitudes" was formed by one of your little "tidal waves" of incorrect assumptions. ;)

So it is called a "sea of platitudes" when someone disagrees with you? ;)

Platitudes are cheap, obvious truths used out of context that really have no bearing on the issue at hand. I can just as easily justify a subway, (not skytrain, subway), to Langley and justify it with "planning for the future", and "commuters from Abbotsford will want it".

What exactly are you disagreeing with anyway? That a subway to nowhere is a waste of precious money better allocated to higher priority projects in the inner city?

Yes, dleung. Platitudes = Other People's Opinions.

The amount of money York Region is paying for the subway, the region could have built a LRT network in the region. York is convinced building a couple of subway lines is going to reduce congestion in the region, and I think they are in a disappointment.

If money were not an object these subway lines would be very pratical. In the distance future I can see the Yonge line going all the way up to Newmarket. Maybe then there will be more people taking transit north of the city.:cheers:

If money were not an object these subway lines would be very pratical. In the distance future I can see the Yonge line going all the way up to Newmarket. Maybe then there will be more people taking transit north of the city.:cheers:

But why? That's what commuter rail is for. I mean, yeah, if we had billions to throw around, OK. Subways lines to everyone's doorstep then. But serving low density, non-mixed use areas with subway lines makes no sense.

Yes, dleung. Platitudes = Other People's Opinions.

If you can't be bothered to read before repeating the same nonsense...
Platitudes are cheap, obvious truths used out of context that really have no bearing on the issue at hand. I can just as easily demand subway, (not skytrain, subway), to Langley and justify it with platitudes like "planning for the future", and "commuters from Abbotsford will want it"

What exactly are you disagreeing with anyway? That a subway to nowhere is a waste of precious money better allocated to higher priority projects in the inner city?

That's why you ignored the latter question... the purpose of joining this discussion was to disagree with dleung the person, not with dleung's arguments (as if you even had a clue about the issues surrounding the Spadina extension)

^^ Your modesty astounds me.

I'll wait for the Name the Eglinton Subway boring machines contest.

If money were not an object these subway lines would be very pratical. In the distance future I can see the Yonge line going all the way up to Newmarket. Maybe then there will be more people taking transit north of the city.:cheers:

IF money was no object, I would pushing to upgrade the GO lines to electrified Regional Express Rail with 15 minute all day service. That would serve York Region far better than one subway line up Yonge St.

The Yonge Line will go as far as Richmond Hill, and it's unlikely go further.

I'll wait for the Name the Eglinton Subway boring machines contest.

The "About timers".

How about: "$4 billion tunnel for streetcars, only in Toronto"

^^The TBM's are being used on the Spadina Subway extension.

Your pathological hatred for LRT, and obsession with subways is pitiful sometimes.

"Your pathological hatred for subways, and obsession with LRT is pitiful sometimes"

See what I did there?

^^You're the one who thinks the TBM's are being used for the Eglinton Tunnel! :lol:

You cannot understand why your "$4 billion tunnel for streetcars, only in Toronto" names make no sense!

Awesome!

The conversation above, if you had cared to read, was 'what could the names for the Eglinton TBMs be?'

I think we should maybe move this thread to the transit & infrastructure section.

This and the Robert Bruce Ford thread. They are basically touching on the same subjects.

^^ agreed!!

This thing should be called TB1, tunnel borer1 nice and simple. Gives the city opportunity to bring in a TB2 for the Sheppard line and TB3 for extending the Yonge line. Just one tunnel borer ain't going to cut it for all the subway expansion plans this city has.

The tunnel boring machines have names according to York University's YFile:

Holey, Moley! York History Prof Names Tunnel-Boring Machines

By Jenny Pitt-Clark, YFile editor
Tuesday, February 01, 2011

When York history Professor Thomas Cohen read an online posting about a contest to name the four tunnel-boring machines that would be used to build the York-Spadina subway extension, it was a challenge he could not refuse.

The contest, which was sponsored by the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC), asked Torontonians to come up with quirky names for the giant earth-eating machines.

Cohen, who is a scholar of Renaissance Rome in the Department of Humanities in York's Faculty of Liberal Arts & Professional Studies (LA&PS), decided to enter the contest. An urban activist and advocate of public transit, Cohen thought the contest would not only be fun, but also a great way to draw attention to the important role the subway extension would play in uniting the Greater Toronto Area.

“I came up with the names of Holey and Moley,” he said with a laugh. “It was kind of a ‘Eureka’ moment for me. Essentially, the machines are moles that make marvellous holes. The words went together beautifully.”

Earlier this year, Cohen received official notification that he had won the contest and two of the machines would be christened Holey and Moley. City of Vaughan resident Rose Rinella’s submission of Yorkie and Torkie snagged the other win. A total of 720 entries were submitted to the contest. The TTC narrowed the field to 10 entries and the public was invited to vote for their favourites. The winners secured the top spot by a landslide lead of more than 2,000 votes on the contest's website....


....Cohen and Rinella will be present at the official naming ceremony for the York-Spadina tunnel-boring machines that will take place this spring. If Cohen has his way, the ceremony location and time are sure to be on multiple listservs, posted online, tweeted and included in Facebook.

Read More: http://www.yorku.ca/yfile/archive/index.asp?Article=16354