Just had a little argument on facebook.

It seems than some of my friends think GM dosn't exist and that Manchester is in Lancashire. I was born in 1982 and I don't think of myself as Lancasterian in anyway. I am a Manc that lives in the old Lancashire/Cheshire border. To me Sale and Altrincham is 100% a suburb of Manchester, even Alderly Edge feels it is even though I know in Cheshire proper.

I personaly would like to see the entire Greater Manchester area (excluding Wigan) become a city in its own right. It would stop the sillyness of people quoting Manchester of having a population of just under 400,000.

I would still want to retain the LAs so Trafford would still be Trafford it would just be a part of the wider city.

Essentialy I would change the marketing of Greater Manchester rather than the politics.

What do others think?

I get quite annoyed when people talk about them living in Cheshire when it turns out they live in Heaton Moor just on the border of Levenshulme or Burnage :p.

River Mersey / Tame is the 'proper' border between Cheshire and Lancashire/Manchester - so therefore I live in Cheshire :-)

But its crap, its like saying you live in Surrey if you live in Fulham.

Sale was in the old border but its no more Cheshire than Openshaw is.

There are some that believe that when the county council was abolished the county was which isnt true. But yeah from time to time you do come across those that think their in Lancashire or Cheshire, for some its not a physical location however its a cultural one, I live in GM but im a Lancastrian.

Greater Manchester isn't manchester in any universe. go tell a wiganer that they're a mancunian and find out.

london is different to manchester/greater manchester isn't in any way comparable to greater london.

I suppose if you live in Oldham or Bolton you might have a Lancashire connection. I live in Chorlton just by the Sale border but I have no connection with Cheshire at all. I am pure Greater Manchester. I am just as manc as a Salfordian as far as I am concerned. Heck a lot of Salfordians live closer to the city centre an I do!

Greater Manchester isn't manchester in any universe. go tell a wiganer that they're a mancunian and find out.

london is different to manchester/greater manchester isn't in any way comparable to greater london.

I can understand a Wiganer not feeling like a Manc, its far too far and shouldn't be in Greater Manchester. But Stockport and Oldham there is no cut off point it just continues.

Of course you can be both a manc and a Stockportian. You can have your own identity within GM. I am a Chortonite for example.

But a Stretfordian saying they are not Manc if they were born there is just silly. Can any of us really argue that Morrissey isn't a manc for example?

yes but there's a difference between saying that stretford might be a part of manchester and saying

I personaly would like to see the entire Greater Manchester area (excluding Wigan) become a city in its own right. It would stop the sillyness of people quoting Manchester of having a population of just under 400,000.

my own personal opinion is that manchester really only extends as far as its ancient parish does.

http://geesnmore.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/mapsalfordhundred.jpg?w=629&h=473

i mean who gives a shit. once you leave the city centre the areas are pretty anonymous anyway. saying manchester has 400,000, 200,000 or 2,000,000 doesn't make the city centre any less significant a place.

JD, I see what you're saying, but Manchester isn't comparable with London. In London, people WANT to be seen living there, they just like the sound of saying "I live in London". It has a larger 'pull' than Manchester.

It annoys me sometimes as well, but (historically) Manchester's a part of Lancashire. Trying to get RID of that heritage would be like trying to wipe the Town Hall or John Ryland's Library off the face of the Earth.

I live in Sale , and literally a stones throw from the " historic border " as it says on the sign on the bridge over the Mersey . I have always been a proud Manc who lives in Cheshire , but kind of always thought Manchester was in Lancs , all though it is really its own area now as Manchester City . I think Alderley Edge is too far out to be Greater Manchester though , just a posh town in Cheshire ! I bet no one who lives there considers themselves a Mancunian or as even living in Greater Manchester ! It always amuses me that people who live miles and miles from London , and probably never go into the city from one year to another still call themselves a Londoner ! Anyone know how far out the city the borders of London are ?

I live in Sale , and literally a stones throw from the " historic border " as it says on the sign on the bridge over the Mersey . I have always been a proud Manc who lives in Cheshire , but kind of always thought Manchester was in Lancs , all though it is really its own area now as Manchester City . I think Alderley Edge is too far out to be Greater Manchester though , just a posh town in Cheshire ! I bet no one who lives there considers themselves a Mancunian or as even living in Greater Manchester ! It always amuses me that people who live miles and miles from London , and probably never go into the city from one year to another still call themselves a Londoner ! Anyone know how far out the city the borders of London are ?

Well I've always considered the M25 to be the border, which is about 15-20 miles out in all directions. But people as far out as Southend-on-Sea and Reading consider themselves to be Londoners!

O.k. I live in Saddleworth. Will someone please tell me where the hell I am.

I agree with Voldermort,I grew up being told im from Lancashire & still feel that way.We are historically lancashire & shouldnt forget our heritage (remember Lancashire cricket club is in Old trafford).I probably shouldnt as i grew up in wilmslow which is Cheshire but my parents are from near the city centre hence the whole lancashire thing!!.

I think an age issue is apparant here. I know several younger people who are from proper Bolton and consider them selves very much Mancunian where as many other people in Bolton think of the town of as pure Lancashire.

The truth is some where in the middle. I don't want to deny peoples heratage but there is currently so much confusion of what exactly Manchester is.

I personaly think of Manchester as this. Notice the exclusion of Wigan but the inclusion of parts of Macclesfield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Manchester_Urban_Area

99.9% of Boltoners will think that they live in Bolton. and not because 99.9% of Boltoners are old but because Bolton is just a different place to Manchester. You cross countryside, rivers, motorways, even another city to get from Bolton to Manchester. it's just insanity to say it is Manchester. They even speak differently for christ sake.

Influenced by Manchester. Yes. Part of its hinterland? Definately. Full of mancs? absolutely not.

I think it can be a generation thing also - i live on the Eccles/Swinton border, about 4 1/2 miles from the city centre and class myself Salfordian born and bred and i also think of myself as Mancunian, becasue at the end of the day Manchester and Salford are to interlinked to think anything else...but there are local people where i live who say they are plainly Salfordian and won't accept that they have anything to do with Manchester even though they spend most of there time there!!

Some other older people say they live in Swinton Lancashire!?...and have nothing to do with Salford or Manchester at all! talk about living in the past!!

So in the end of the day i dont think it matters - its how you feel and you can't change what others think anyway.

But they are placed by GMP, protected by GM fire, served by GMPTE etc.... Why can't Bolton be a seperate town in a wider town? I mean Chorlton and Withington were once seperated by countryside from Manchester and until 1904 technically were not even in Manchester.

I am not saying Boltoners are mancs, but there is no reason why Bolton should not be considered apart of Manchester.

What about the case of Stockport? Its clearly its own town but also very clearly apart of Manchester. Although of the Stockport lot consider them selves as apart of the Cheshire set even if they are on the wrong side of the Tame!

I think it can be a generation thing also - i live on the Eccles/Swinton border, about 4 1/2 miles from the city centre and class myself Salfordian born and bred and i also think of myself as Mancunian, becasue at the end of the day Manchester and Salford are to interlinked to think anything else...but there are local people where i live who say they are plainly Salfordian and won't accept that they have anything to do with Manchester even though they spend most of there time there!!

Some other older people say they live in Swinton Lancashire!?...and have nothing to do with Salford or Manchester at all! talk about living in the past!!

So in the end of the day i dont think it matters - its how you feel and you can't change what others think anyway.

Its that mentalility that annoys me, I completly respect a Bolton person might feel a strong bond with Lancashire, I don't want to change that however I think they also need to realise the benefits of being connected to Manchester.

I have a friend that lives in Rossendale and he considers himself to be very much apart of Manchester. If people asks where he lives he will say Manchester, even though he speaks with a broad Lancashire accents and dosn't like the Smiths :lol: In his case I think its cool factor though. More lcoally he will say he is from Rossendale.

Salford is a strange one due to its long history and the fact it shares some of Manchester city centre.

Salford is a strange one due to its long history and the fact it shares some of Manchester city centre

Yes it is a strange one and it annoys me how someone living in Adelphi or Greengate, can say they have nothing to do with Manchester and they live 1/2 mile from Deansgate! I think it goes back to the late 1800's when Salford and Manchester gangs used to hate each other and knock the crap out of each other with belt buckles!

Think with the city centre spilling over into Salford in recent years peoples views are changing...

I think it's a mix between education, generations and transport links.

If people aren't educated to know where they live, what their area's history is, then they'll be confused by where exactly they live in the first place.

Older generations do seem to be the ones who are 'proud to be a lancashire lad' etc, whether that has anything to do with the war and the Lancashire Fusiliers I don't know. Younger generations just like to thrive off whatever town or city is closest.

Transport to the metropolitan 'hub' is essential if the city in question (Manchester) wants its' surrounding towns to consider themselves mancunian. Sadly, at the moment, transport in Manchester is rather dismal.

I'm anticipating the arrive of Metrolink in Rochdale, because that town is indeed a very distant borough of Manchester, and once it finds out that the Manchester Metrolink has arrived there, the residents will soon realise what great city they're part of :)

I went to Salford University (hence my poor spelling :p ) and even then the skyline could only mean I was in Manchester. Since then the city centre has got closer to Salford and skyline is a lot more impressive. I only left five years ago too!.

Although when I was there was a lot of talk about the art department moving to Salford Quays.

I think it's a mix between education, generations and transport links.

If people aren't educated to know where they live, what their area's history is, then they'll be confused by where exactly they live in the first place.

Older generations do seem to be the ones who are 'proud to be a lancashire lad' etc, whether that has anything to do with the war and the Lancashire Fusiliers I don't know. Younger generations just like to thrive off whatever town or city is closest.

Transport to the metropolitan 'hub' is essential if the city in question (Manchester) wants its' surrounding towns to consider themselves mancunian. Sadly, at the moment, transport in Manchester is rather dismal.

I'm anticipating the arrive of Metrolink in Rochdale, because that town is indeed a very distant borough of Manchester, and once it finds out that the Manchester Metrolink has arrived there, the residents will soon realise what great city they're part of :)

To be fair I am not sure why Rochdale is in GM but then places like Middleton are clearly apart of Manchester even if they are in Rochdale. Even I am not going to argue that somebody from Rochdale should think of them selve as manc. I think that is what Greater Manchester is all about.

Transport links will make everything closer and Metrolink will be one of the solutions.

Of course my Lancashire friend despite living 20 miles away from Manchester City centre calls Manchester 'town' it is where he works and plays. He lives close to Bury and Blackburn but would never consider either places for a night out but then neither have all the rock/punk pubs and clubs Manchester has.

if you want a reason why its geography. withington is a part of manchester (as it has been a part of the manchester parish for centuries) because it's in the same geographical area as manchester. by which i mean the section of the cheshire plain.. that's in lancashire. Salford is a finger of the Irwell valley as it swoops down into this plain. Beyond Salford, as you go up the valley, after you've crossed Kersley moor ! you reach a more upland part of Lancashire around Bolton. It just isn't the same place! A lot of boundaries are psychological, and if you've ever taken the slog that is the number 8 bus you'd know, when you arrived, that you were in a lancashire town called bolton, rather than a part of manchester.

Well I live in Monton near Eccles (about 5 miles from the city) so obviously Manchester is where I go for pretty much everything.

However, I went to school in Bury. Most people who went there were from the Rochdale and Bury boroughs (Nelson, Norden, Prestwich, Radcliffe and Whitefield to name but a few), then there were a few from Tottington and Holcome Brook etc. However, pretty much every weekend, myself and a few friends all used to meet in Manchester and it wasn't difficult for anyone to get there, in fact, we still do it.

Nowadays I have a large friend-base, scattered across the GM region in Bury, Rochdale, Stockport, Salford and Trafford (Hale). Each and every one of them considers themselves living in Manchester.

Just had a little argument on facebook.

It seems than some of my friends think GM dosn't exist and that Manchester is in Lancashire. I was born in 1982 and I don't think of myself as Lancasterian in anyway. I am a Manc that lives in the old Lancashire/Cheshire border. To me Sale and Altrincham is 100% a suburb of Manchester, even Alderly Edge feels it is even though I know in Cheshire proper.

I personaly would like to see the entire Greater Manchester area (excluding Wigan) become a city in its own right. It would stop the sillyness of people quoting Manchester of having a population of just under 400,000.

I quite agree. I think the biggest problem was that the postal counties never changed for us post-1974. Where as Merseyside, Tyne & Wear and the like appeared on letters for the past 35 years, meaning a sense of new identity was built up, Greater Manchester never existed as a postal county. This meant that daft people still thought they belonged to Cheshire or Lancashire when in fact they lived many miles away from them!

Yes, we should all be proud of our heritage, but we also need to move on as well. I think being in Greater Manchester and being thought of as 'Mancunian' is far more attractive than living in sleepy Lank-er-shur or poncy Cheshire.

Maybe the big change will come if we get an elected tier of government at a Greater Manchester level. I think having a Greater London Mayor forced people on the outer fringes to think of themselves as Londoners, so the same might work here.

Please noooooooooooo!

I sense legendary long and huge pages and thread devoted to this. And that's before some Liverpool or Leeds troll places their misshaped elongated two right feet into the wet concrete.

Surely its not where you are from, its where you are at.

^^

Yeah but you can't deny the fact that people WANT to live in London. Saying "I live in London" sounds much more attractive than "I live in Manchester".

But yeah, one mayor for the whole city will make people turn around and realise. But also, you need to distribute the Manchester name all over the county, which is where I come back to Transport. But also, there should be one council. Greater Manchester Council? Whatever. Just get the name 'Manchester' in there. Council Taxes from all 2.5 million people across the region should be delivered to Council Towers, Manchester.

EDIT: this was aimed at Nathan.

Bolton isn't in manchester. it's just nuts to say it is. and its even more nuts to say "yehhhh get with the times, you're manc." fucking crazy. like i say take the number 8. they'll never be the same place and you'll realise why.

Bolton isn't in manchester. it's just nuts to say it is. and its even more nuts to say "yehhhh get with the times, you're manc." fucking crazy. like i say take the number 8. they'll never be the same place and you'll realise why.

I agree the north end of Bolton feels like a million miles away from Manchester, but what do you think about Kearsley and Farnworh to the south?

Bolton is not apart of Manchester as a city, but it has been a wider part of Manchester since 1974. Even parts of Warrington (now in Cheshire) consider them selves as apart of Manchester.

Boltonians are just that, people from Bolton, they have their own indentity but I am not sure how they are any more Lancasterian than they are Greater Mancunian. I mean Lancaster is a lot further than Bolton than Manchester.

I agree the north end of Bolton feels like a million miles away from Manchester, but what do you think about Kearsley and Farnworh to the south?

Kearsley and Farnworth are funny areas it never really feels like a Manchester suburb to me, where as Wilmslow does. I think wealth is a major part of it though too. People in Wilmslow are in the main wealthy so they can afford to go come into Manchester a lot, in poorer areas such as Farnworth a lot of the locals probably keep them selves local.

I realise this is a major generalisation, and there are wealthy people in Farnworth vice versa.

Kearsley and Farnworth are funny areas it never really feels like a Manchester suburb to me, where as Wilmslow does. I think wealth is a major part of it though too. People in Wilmslow are in the main wealthy so they can afford to go come into Manchester a lot, in poorer areas such as Farnworth a lot of the locals probably keep them selves local.

I realise this is a major generalisation, and there are wealthy people in Farnworth vice versa.

Yes i know what you mean. Even though Kearsley is only 7 miles from the city and is right next to Clifton, Salford, it feels like you've crossed the border into another land, and the locals even speak with a different accent to a few miles down the road in Pendlebury!

nothing to do with wealth rather more to do with geography. the 'burbs of kearsley and farnworth are not anywhere near the burbs of manchester. the distinction is made even more acute by the m60.

bolton hasn't been a wider part of manchester since 1974, don't lie. The area known as greater manchester (the valleys that lead down toward the mersey from the west pennines) has always been its own administritative zone. it used to be called the salford hundred or salfordshire. that doesn't mean to say that bolton has been a wider part of manchester since salfordshires inception in 1182 does it?

Can we not all just accept Greater Manchester is an odd urban region that's very difficult to define and take some pleasure in strange combination of plurality and coherence; rather than obsessing about minutiae? A city is its people, and its bounds are a wide as their bonds to it will stretch. Everything else is just lines on a map.

Gtr Manchester is a decapolis.

Manchester is the hub and for the wont of a name, the city region got called that. I mean SELNEC (sounds like a disease) and Intermersey (sounds like a sexual disease) and as for erm excuse me Salfordshire. That would have long been conflated to Salfshire (which sounds like what the two other disease grew on).

I blame the Anglo Saxons for placing a border on the Mersey. I'd be still calling here Brigantia or Rheged if wasnt for those meddling Mercians.

I think it should be a cut off 10 miles from the centre of Manchester !!! or from the middle of town as I still call it , think that is an age thing !
Is it right that the exact centre is the marker on the wall of the tower of St.Anns Church ? or is a different point used now ?

How about using the M60 as a rough guide, inside would be manchester, outside lancashire, cheshire or whatever.

For me Manchester stops around the M60.

Bolton is very much a place of its own and does not feel the gravity of Manchester. Even Farnworth and little Lever, south of the town, are very much under Bolton's gravity. Kearsley is in neither, on the watershed so to speak.

Bolton's geography pushes Manchester and the other towns away. Its surrounded by hills. This makes Bolton a giant arena and all you see on the stage is the town hall. Even seeing Manchesters skyline very difficult unless you know where to go and even then Beetham tower is tiny.

Bolton IMO is in Lancashire and has been the for over a 1000 years, its only in the last 36 years that it has 'not'.

I'm only 22 so have not the same bias as someone who remembers old lancashire. Also Bolton born and bred, and I go to Manchester once a week.

I cant speak for the rest of GM as I don't live there.

If I were to be technically correct, when I write my address should I put Manchester, Lancashire or Manchester, Greater Manchester?

I presume it's the former but I switch between both.

Once some kind gent has cleared this up for me can we:

a: lock this thread
or
b: someone dig up one of the many identical ones, ask B4mster to merge them and let everyone see that whatever they are saying, it's been said before. Numerous times.

These threads are like dropping a bloody carcass into water and waiting for the troll sharks to arrive.

You often hear 'London and the Home Counties' in news and weather reports, so perhaps a similar moniker could be coined for Manchester/GM?

I was born south of the Mersey, which makes me historical Cheshire, although that part (Wythenshawe) was annexed by Manchester Extension Act 1930, so born within the City of Manchester.

Having lived in various GM districts (Bolton, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford) over the years, as well as outside (including Warrington, High Peak, Derbyshire Dales), I've always felt 'Manc'.

Personally, I feel creation of a South Manchester district, outside the M60, taking most of Trafford and Wythenshawe, and encompassing Knutsford, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Poynton and Wilmslow, would end the 'Cheshire set' mentality.

Salford, north Trafford, central and north Manchester, as well as Tameside would become 'Metropolitan', and leave the former 'Lancy' towns (Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham), as they are.

Also the official title of Metrolink is the Greater Manchester Light Rapid Transit System.

I think this amalgamation of peoples is what makes us so great........end of!!!:):):)

my take for what it's worth is manchesterr/ whatever you want to call it is at a minimum to the M60 in all directions and further is some directions, for example the area like Cheadle, Gatley, Heald Green, Cheadle Hulme etc. are all Manchester imo whilst all being outside the M60

again imo bigger cities spread their nets further, so London spreads in massively, Nottingham has a smallish spread, Liverpool a bigger spread than nottingham then Manchester a bigger spread than Liverpool etc.

To be fair I am not sure why Rochdale is in GM but then places like Middleton are clearly apart of Manchester even if they are in Rochdale. Even I am not going to argue that somebody from Rochdale should think of them selve as manc. I think that is what Greater Manchester is all about.

Transport links will make everything closer and Metrolink will be one of the solutions.

Of course my Lancashire friend despite living 20 miles away from Manchester City centre calls Manchester 'town' it is where he works and plays. He lives close to Bury and Blackburn but would never consider either places for a night out but then neither have all the rock/punk pubs and clubs Manchester has.

I hope you didn't do geography at University!

Greater Manchester as a place hasn't got an identity. How can you identify yourself to something that was made up for administration purposes rather than a traditional county?

Why would someone from the towns of Oldham, Bolton, Bury, Stockport, Wigan etc identify themselves as Mancs? They are no Mancunians. Only people living within the City of Manchester and truely say that they are a mancunian.

You often hear 'London and the Home Counties' in news and weather reports, so perhaps a similar moniker could be coined for Manchester/GM?

I was born south of the Mersey, which makes me historical Cheshire, although that part (Wythenshawe) was annexed by Manchester Extension Act 1930, so born within the City of Manchester.

Having lived in various GM districts (Bolton, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford) over the years, as well as outside (including Warrington, High Peak, Derbyshire Dales), I've always felt 'Manc'.

Personally, I feel creation of a South Manchester district, outside the M60, taking most of Trafford and Wythenshawe, and encompassing Knutsford, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Poynton and Wilmslow, would end the 'Cheshire set' mentality.

Salford, north Trafford, central and north Manchester, as well as Tameside would become 'Metropolitan', and leave the former 'Lancy' towns (Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham), as they are.

Also the official title of Metrolink is the Greater Manchester Light Rapid Transit System.

I actually agree with you I think although Bury does have a very Manchester feel to it in a way that Bolton dosn't.

I also agree about Wilmslow it feels far too Manc not really like proper Cheshire but you don't need to go far out of the town to be in proper Cheshire. It would be mad to call Chelford as Manchester for example even though its at the back of the airport.

The M60 boundary is too small as it cuts of places like Urmston and Cheadle. Also Ashton to me as a feel of a Manchester town.

I will exclude Bolton from my version of GMPTE, maybe they can get their police from Lancashire etc. Maybe they could be their own county called Boltonshire.

I hope you didn't do geography at University!

Greater Manchester as a place hasn't got an identity. How can you identify yourself to something that was made up for administration purposes rather than a traditional county?

Why would someone from the towns of Oldham, Bolton, Bury, Stockport, Wigan etc identify themselves as Mancs? They are no Mancunians. Only people living within the City of Manchester and truely say that they are a mancunian.

So you're saying somebody from Ordsall living closer and sounding more manc than I do are not mancs? Its this arugment which annoyed me so much to start this thread in the first place. Most people from Stockport I know think of them selves very much as mancs, but then I know only know people from the north side of Stockport. But I know a lot of of mancs living in the south part.

Oldham can have Oldham to semselves, they can just keep the fighting going on in Yorkshire street and leave the city centre out of the voilence :).

Wigan I agree, it should not be in Greater Manchester.

All counties were made up some how and things do change, as I said above Chorlton wasn't even part of Manchester until 1904, it was apart of the township of Withington and hard its own council Withington UDC.

How can Stockport or Ahston not be apart of Manchester? Manchester city council is just the council which runs Manchester, the name, Manchester as a city is a lot wider than the city council area.

It is all the way areas function and not about bounderies. Stockport very much functions as apart of Manchester, it shares the same police, buses etc etc. I am a Manchester based business and do business in the Stockport area all the time as it is apart of my city I work.

Not really much point in discussing this, Greater Manchester is what it is and is not likely to be changing anytime soon, rather strengthening. And there will always be arguments for/against the inclusion of Bolton & Wigan but the area's closest to Manchester in these boroughs do become more influenced although they are the 2 areas with the biggest individual identities. And I would say the city that influences both boroughs the most is Manchester (after their own town centres ofcourse) for shopping, travel, entertainment and even nightlife.

So doesn't look like anything will change in regards to GM, everyone will always have the lancs/chesh/manc heritage depending which part they are from.
THE END :)

I now live in Stalybridge (previously Eccles for 20 odd years) and it still feels like Manc, albeit on the outskirts.

It is very much a commuter town with a great transpennine station, takes 15 mins through urbanity all the way on the train, likewise 20 in the car.

From my flat, on one side filling my front window is Wild Bank Hill and the town centre below (i live 5 floors up btw) and from the other side and roof terrace is a view of just urbanity with Beetham poking up in the distance. :)

I know it technically used to be in 'Cheshire', but certainly doesn'y feel like it it!

I think the boundaries for the metro boroughs are literally just for the ease of funding in areas. No one actaully thinks that Prestwich is in Bury! The same can be said about other districts for example Old Trafford is a Manchester district, but as the bitters like to tell us it is in Stretford, which is in Trafford, but again should be a Manchester district!! the same can be said in the east, i.e. Audenshaw, Droylsden, Denton to the east........these are all Manchester districts but are put within other Metro areas so that funding can be divided up fairly between the districts...... I think if manchester had to deal with the funding for say 1.5 million people then some areas would lose out on their fair share.

The problem is that it gives other cities such as Liverpool and Leeds ammo to have a go at Manchester's population because they are in boundary terms bigger! but in realitly smaller cities. I say let them say it if it makes them feel good, but people who live in Manchester know the real situation, so just ignore it

The real issue is funding and marketing literature I guess.

Luckily with City & United the name of Manchester means far more than other cities.

Maybe Manchester should have it' own crumbly cheese to help define us?

Nick Eccles cakes from Eccles.

See how many BBC staff refer to Salford or Manchester after the move!

This is an old chestnut which will perhaps never be resolved.

The ancient 'county palatines' of Cheshire and Lancashire still exist, they were not dis-established by the 1974 changes to local government, however they have no relevance to administration anymore. Some people still keep an affiliation to these for understandable reasons. However even these are not original, they were established in medieval times, replacing previous Romano-Saxon administrative boundaries. No one is wanting to cling to those, are they? The question is - how much relevance do they have today, when the industrial cities have far outgrown the old county towns which were traditionally the centres of administration and gave their names to the palatines? Some places like Wigan do feel somewhat removed from Manchester, but most of the satellite towns, whether originally part of Cheshire or Lancashire are now economically and socially tied to Manchester, and that should be recognised in the county boundaries and names, and to where they pay local taxes. It doesn't help the city region to proposer when there is such fragmented administration.

Fly my bet that it will be Salford Quays, Manchester for the Beeb.

Yeah like Westminster is in London and not referred to as a city in itself.

Cue four pages from Salfordians.

Roverman I can guess what you mean, but pedantic Heaton here knows that its Romano-British and Saxon not Romano-Saxon. Not that it matters really.

What does matter and you are right Rover is that towns outside the Decapolis borders are really economically tied to the City Region, yet are outside the political decision making. I blame Edward Heath.

One way of putting this is when I drive down the A56 just outside Stretford Helldale as I approach the bridge I don't see a sign saying "Welcome to Cheshire" like I do if I drive down Styal Road towards Styal :)

No, but you do see a sign that states the Mersey is the historical boundary between Lancs and Cheshire.

No idea why parts of Cheshire cannot be in Manc though.

Nick Hall, the historic county for Saddleworth is Yorkshire (the West Riding), an odd one as it looks Yorkshire with the stone, Pennines etc but is on the opposite side of the Pennines to the rest of it, with ribbons of development joining it to Oldham.

macc, to be technically correct in terms of your postal address you wouldn't put a county down at all as postal counties were abolished in the 90s. As a result you can put down Lancs, GM or whatever, it won't make any difference.

Your correct postal address is...

<House Number> <Street Name>
<Postcode>

Nothing more.

I have been working in Openshaw lately and its opened my eyes a lot, I spend so much time in Chorlton, Didsbury and Sale that I forget the other parts of Manchester exist.

When I think of Manchester I think of the city centre, leafly suburbs and Salford Quays.

I see Beswick is a massive improvement, but Openshaw is still a hell hole. I think the councils really need to work hard on improving these areas.

Having said that as I look out of my Chorlton window all I can see is terrace houses, but at least there is lots of trees around.

I fear that the image of Manchester to a lot of people is not the nicer parts but the declining parts such as Openshaw and Miles Platting etc.

The shit areas still massively outnumber the decent areas in GM no matter what many on here would love us to believe.

The shit areas still massively outnumber the decent areas in GM no matter what many on here would love us to believe.

And I think the council need to do something about that. There is no excuse for the horribleness of Openshaw or Miles Platting but then I suppose the logic is no visitors will probably see those areas. I suppose London also has some very nasty areas despite its wealth.

We need poor and rich areas in a city, but there is no reason the poor areas have to be as abd as they are

There is a limit to what the local authorities can do with extremely limited powers.

For GM to really improve and the shitty areas to reduce in size the only real answer is a vastly improved education system for the very poor.

There is a limit to what the local authorities can do with extremely limited powers.

For GM to really improve and the shitty areas to reduce in size the only real answer is a vastly improved education system for the very poor.

The problem is now even with good education there is no jobs :ohno: Or at least they won't be when they do all the cut backs.

Good education for the poor will lead to lower social problems and more home grown employment.

No matter what many say on here the majority of GMancs are employed in SMEs. Improve the education of the poor and that sector will get much bigger.

So you're saying somebody from Ordsall living closer and sounding more manc than I do are not mancs?
Absolutely! We're from Salford. A different city, unlike the other Greater Manchester towns. That's important.

Fly my bet that it will be Salford Quays, Manchester for the Beeb.
Probably :ohno:, but I have been impressed by the number of times I have heard people on the BBC commenting about their move to Salford.

I lived in Salford for a few years in the 60's. Their accent with the exception of the odd colloquialism, is clearly Mancunian.

They proudly claimed to be Salfordian but ask anyone of them just where they were headed when they are "going into town" and you would get only one answer: yes you guessed it---MANCHESTER.

Motwyw...

What Manchester is to most of us may not be a 'city'.

To those in Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield, Birmingham and some in Salford the idea that 'Manchester' is more than the city of Manchester is beyond belief.

Maybe it is time to start to describe 'Manchester' as something other than a city?

A homogeonous urban area around a single core?

Does what we all know to be 'Manchester' have to necessarily be described as a city?

I lived in Salford for a few years in the 60's. Their accent with the exception of the odd colloquialism, is clearly Mancunian.

They proudly claimed to be Salfordian but ask anyone of them just where they were headed when they are "going into town" and you would get only one answer: yes you guessed it---MANCHESTER.

Motwyw...

if you lived in the countryside around somewhere like norwich you'd say "i'm going to town/into the city" - people in salford say that because salford doesn't have a town centre or if it does it is just manchester city centre.

the westminster comparison is off. westminster is surrounded by london. salford only touches manchester at the city centre and around broughton. apart from that its distinctly its own place.

So what?

Morley 'in Leeds' has 6 councillors.

Without fail they are always from the Morley Independence Party.

Does that make Morley not a part of Leeds?

I'd say Tower Hamlets is obviously very distinct from Bromley.

Both obviously part of the same city though.

To anyone inside or outside of Salford, Salford is Manchester. Most people probably think Salford's a district of Manchester rather than a separate city, and that's what it effectively is.

So what what? I'm not making any other point other than that Salford is a distinct place from Manchester. You want to call Greater Manchester Manchester, fine, pointless and wrong but fine. The thing is it ain't happened yet so the point stands.

Why do you say I am calling Greater Manchester Manchester?

Clearly I am not.

I just point out the relationship between Salford and Manchester is no different between Morley and Leeds in a smaller city or Tower Hamlets and Bromley in a larger city.

Manchester certainly does not equal Greater Manchester.

I don't see why there has to be a relationship or a comparison. It is what it is. Salford and Manchester are two cities next to each other that, naturally, share amenities.

So do lots of other cities.

Southwark and Westminster are seperate cities.

Morley and Leeds are clearly distinct places.

Yet as they share the same aminities people reognise them as the same city.

As I said, don't call them cities. But 'Manchester (or Salford if you like) is the equal 2nd largest whatever in the UK and that is what people are trying to get others to acknowledge.

No, because your "whatever" isn't interchangeable with a city. Otherwise where do you stop, is the whole of the North East a "whatever"?

Trying to get nob heads on the internet to realise anything is pointless, they've said it cos they know it will piss you off. Everyone knows how significant Manchester is and that is essentially the centre of a small country sized economic region.

kids, about 200 years ago Salford was a separate town. About 300 years ago it was even larger than neighboring Manchester.

The two towns became so intertwined that the border, mainly the Irwell winding through the Deansgate became so vague that in some places it was almost impossible to know whether you were in Salford or Mcr. Take for instance 'Salford Bus Station' (years ago) it was literally within spitting distance of Manchester cathedral. The Port of Manchester and Manchester Racecourse were in Salford. Where the fuck where all these proud 'separate-city' Salfordians then?

Today it is 'officially' still a separate city but without it's own centre.

As far as it's own 'citizens' are concerned, Manchester city centre is it's de facto 'downtown'.

Brooklyn NY still is a separate borough to Manhattan but as far as most people (including themselves) it's regarded as a component part of NYC.

If some folk want to believe that Trafford, Oldham and other parts of GM are still in Lancs or Cheshire that's fine if they feel 'better' about it.

I worked and shipped out of the docks on Manchester Liners with mostly Salford lads and whether you like it or not, when in the USA or Canada they always claimed to be 'from Manchester'.

It's time to move on from this tired old argument.

Salford is in Manchester, end of.

no, it's not. it's one thing saying that theyre apart of the same structure and the same place, and obviously theres something to be said about that. but calling whatever that is in manchester is just wrong. how is it in manchester?

dont people say brooklyn,NY as in brooklyn new york state? i've never been to america but dont people say that theyre from brooklyn, when outside NY all the time?

So what do you suggest we should describe this 'whatever' place / region / whatever as?

There is something clearly more substantial than city of Manchester that is delivering the greatest economical benefits to the HSR projected scheme.

When I talk to people (not on the internet) about the lump of something in the north west that delivers the largest office market outside of London , one of the largest retail markets and countless other things that represent a big 'whatever' what terms would you like me to use and what names?

I am not overly keen on calling it a city or necessarily Manchester, however, they ARE recognised terms that people do understand.

If you have a better alternative then please do share. All very good critisising but please do share you alternative (and please NOT Greater Manchester).

oh, and for what it's worth, when I discuss BBC move when working in London I always refer to it as the move to Salford, without fail, with no prompting from myself the southerns will refer to it as Salford, Manchester.

Until you can come up with a better name for whatever the thing in the north west is, the thing that is commonly known as Manchester and many consider to be a city, no matter how much you may disagree with the accuracy of those statements they will continue to be made.

Greater Manchester works in the same way Greater London works, you have people in London who will claim to live in Kent or Sussex or other neighbouring county because it looks better on their address same way some claim to live in Cheshire or Lancashire (Im thinking Hale in particular). However they all recieve the benefits of living in the greater area, transport, subsidies, strong administration, etc...

I live in Stockport and even though it's an SK postcode it is still a part of the wider area of Manchester. Like you said WatcherZero, people say they are from a certain area because they think it looks better. People from Beverly Hills are still living in the Los Angeles area, it's just a case of self pride.

It's time to move on from this tired old argument.

Salford is in Manchester, end of.
In the conurbation but not of the city. Simples. :banana:

Why can you not have a city within a city? London regarded as a city but in reality it is one of the smallest cities in the world. If its population was reported in the same way Manchesters is it would have the population of around 10,000.

When I walking down Oxford Street in Westminster I don't think I am not in London even though Westminster has its own city status.

Just out of interest I have found a few address of big places to see where they think they are:-

University of Salford
Salford
Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
United Kingdom

Town Centre Campus
Wellington Road South
Stockport
SK1 3UQ
UK - no mention of Cheshire

http://www.stretfordmall.com - Clearly they advertised them selves as being in Manchester.

Stretford Mall
Chester Road
Stretford
Manchester
M32 9BD

I have never claimed that places like Stockport or Bolton should be apart of Manchester city, but they are are apart of the wider area and anybody who dosn't see that is being daft. It clearly benefits all the smaller towns to be apart of Manchester.

Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council, Town Hall, Edward Street, Stockport, SK1 3XE. I realise they don't mention Manchester in the address but my point is neither is Cheshire.

The world metropolitan itself implies its apart of a wider city.

Bolton University (or what ever they call them selves now) clearly see the benefit of being apart of Manchester. Although they also make connections with Liverpool.

Of course one of the names for Bolton was going to be Greater Manchester University but I think one of the reasons that didn't go ahead is that was already Salford University slogan.

I really think a new Greater Manchester mayer would make all the difference to end all this confusion.

Edit you can't use the M60 as a guide either as the motorway is offeset, you would end up excluding places like Northenden.

Its partialy down to snobery. My dad lives in Ashton-On-Mersey and takes great pleasure in writing cheshire before his M33 postcode. When I ever I send him a card, I always put Manchester.

It is not the 'Morley Independence Party' with all the connotations that implies, but the 'Morley Borough Independents', which claims to be a collection of councillors unaffiliated to normal parties and, as far as I can make out, little more.

So I don't see how them representing Morley on the council makes any sort of statement about it being separate from Leeds. Having said that it is quite obviously distinct from it (stone vs brick, only a little ribbon of development joining it to the rest etc), but I have no idea what the prevailing local identity is these days.

As I said, it's time to move on.

Unless you're a small-minded pedant. :|

I have been working in Openshaw lately and its opened my eyes a lot, I spend so much time in Chorlton, Didsbury and Sale that I forget the other parts of Manchester exist.

When I think of Manchester I think of the city centre, leafly suburbs and Salford Quays.

I see Beswick is a massive improvement, but Openshaw is still a hell hole. I think the councils really need to work hard on improving these areas.

Having said that as I look out of my Chorlton window all I can see is terrace houses, but at least there is lots of trees around.

I fear that the image of Manchester to a lot of people is not the nicer parts but the declining parts such as Openshaw and Miles Platting etc.

I can't help but read your posts in that like? soooo.....cool kinda voice.

Leafly suburbs are the minority in Manchester!

I suspect that the parts you say are 'declining' are actually in a better state than they were 20 years ago

Its partialy down to snobery. My dad lives in Ashton-On-Mersey and takes great pleasure in writing cheshire before his M33 postcode. When I ever I send him a card, I always put Manchester.
I think they've dropped it now, but when the metropolitan counties were brought in (around 1974?) the Royal Mail kept the old county town connections for postal addresses. So Sale and Stockport were in Cheshire, Salford and Wigan in Lancashire, etc. With the widespread use of postcodes it's not necessary nowadays to include any county name so it doesn't really matter.

Another anomaly was that the towns forming the Salford borough kept their 'Manchester' designation for postal purposes - only the M3, M5, M6 and M7 postcodes were Salford, Lancs. When Salford Town Hall moved to Swinton, the official postal address was Civic Centre, Chorley Rd, Swinton, Manchester, M27 5FJ (though the Council now try to get people to write Swinton, Salford).

Did anyone see secret millionaire last night? it was set it Miles Platting. Good viewing...some really sorted folks helping out some of the most deprived people in Manchester.

Your correct postal address is...

<House Number> <Street Name>
<Postcode>

Nothing more.

Erm:

<House Number> <Street Name>
<POST TOWN>
<Postcode>

http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/content1?catId=400044&mediaId=32700664

Post codes are simply for delivering bills, credit card invite and what you drunkenly bought off e bay.

Not for defining communities or political identities.

Ah its only called Greater Manchester for wont of another name.

The place has been many things and called many things, but usually not one name at the same time. And thats the problem.

As a side note, had the Percy-Owain-Mortimer Tripartite Indenture suceeded, then Wirlielink and his fellow Salesians would be singing Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau every March with Wales's northern borders on the Mersey. (Not to pick on you, its just you are only poster who I know lives south of the Mersey)

Had there been some lovely historic term for the land between Rossendale and the Cheshire plain, then it would have been (leave your name here) not Greater Manchester which just confuses the hell out of everyone.

Like I keep saying its a Decapolis of ten boroughs. Its chance that it is called after its main city.

Like I keep saying its a Decapolis of ten boroughs. Its chance that it is called after its main city.

Cities are nothing more than a physical manifestation of an area's economy.

Its not chance Heaton, its economics.

Post codes are simply for delivering bills, credit card invite and what you drunkenly bought off e bay.

Not for defining communities or political identities.

The French are very fond of their departmental numbers, when they were removed from car number plates there was an outcry.

They now have the option of sticking the number on the end of the plate but it's not compulsary.

Those numbers are also included in the postcode.

So if you are from the city of Paris you would have 75 on your number plate, if you were from it's gritty northern suburbs where the Stade de France is situated you would have 92 on your plate.

Your postcode would also begin 75 and 92 respectively