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경제 규모 대비 한국 아파트 값 '세계 최고'

미디어다음 / 선대인 기자

서울지역 아파트 가격 수준이 경제규모 및 가계소득 대비 세계 최고수준이라는 분석이 나왔다.

전직 증권거래소 직원인 서영훈씨는 경실련 아파트값 거품빼기운동본부에 보낸 자신의 분석자료와 기고문에서 이같이 지적하고 국내 아파트의 적정 가격수준은 현재보다 35~40%정도 내려가야 한다고 주장했다. 그 동안 국내 아파트 가격에 거품이 끼어있다는 주장은 많았지만 거품의 규모가 어느 정도인지 외국과 비교해 체계적으로 분석한 연구 자료는 없었다. 그는 증권거래소 애널리스트로 활동한 경험을 바탕으로 각국의 최신 자료를 입수, 이 같은 내용을 정리했다. 그는 "아파트 가격이 주식시장 시가총액의 2.7배에 이르렀는데도 우리는 미국과 영국 등의 주택가격 버블 논란 자료만 내놓고 있다"며 "주택 투기를 막고 주택시장을 정상화하기 위해 이 같은 조사를 실시했다"고 말했다.

그에 따르면 올해 서울의 공급면적 33평(전용면적 25.7평) 신규 아파트의 평균 분양가격은 4억3989만원으로 미국 북동부지역의 신규주택 평균가격을 상회하고 있다는 것. 또 97년 외환위기 영향 등으로 일본과 대만, 홍콩 등에서는 주택가격이 50~67%가량 하락했는데도 한국의 주택가격은 분양가 자율화 등 건설경기 부양조치 등으로 98년 대비 97.8% 상승했다고 한다.

2003년 신규 주택가격을 1인당 GDP와 비교했을 때 한국은 23.7배로 일본(11.8배), 영국(11.8배), 미국(8.3배)보다 월등히 높은 것으로 나타났다. 또 대만(13.6배,2002년), 홍콩(12.1배, 2001년), 싱가포르(5.9배, 2003년) 등 아시아 다른 국가에 비해서도 상당히 높았다. 특히 강남구의 올 3월말 공급면적 33평 아파트의 1인당 GDP대비 주택가격 배수는 49.5배로 미국 뉴욕 맨하탄 아파트의 1/4분기 26.5배를 크게 상회했다.

또 2003년 신규주택가격을 가계소득과 비교했을 때 한국은 10.1배로 영국(7.5배), 일본(7.3배), 미국(5.5배)보다 높았다. 특히 올해 3월말 공급면적 33평 아파트의 경우에는 가계소득 대비 19.8배로 일본의 버블이 최고조에 이르렀던 90년 당시 도쿄 도심부 맨션의 17.7배를 능가했다.

서씨는 “우리나라 주택가격은 경제규모나 가계소득을 고려했을 때 선진국이나 아시아 각국에 비해 매우 높은 수준이며 거품이 많이 끼여 있음을 알 수 있다”며 “경제규모나 가계소득 대비 적정한 수준의 아파트 가격은 지금보다 최소 35~40%가량은 내려가야 한다”고 주장했다. 다음은 23일 경실련 홈페이지에 게재된 서씨의 기고문 전문.



아파트 값만 선진국 수준?


6월말 화성동탄지구 시범단지 아파트 모델하우스에 모여든 인파. [사진=연합뉴스]
국내주택가격은 미국, 일본 등 주요국과 경제규모나 가계소득 차이에도 불구하고, 98년 말 이후 서울 아파트를 중심으로 급등하여 주요 선진국 수준에 근접하거나, 오히려 상회하고 있다.

하지만 최근 급등한 주택가격 수준이 우리 경제규모나 가계의 주택구매력에 비해 적정한지에 대한 객관적인 자료는 좀처럼 찾아보기 힘든 것이 우리 주택시장의 현실이다. 그래서 우리 주택시장의 상황에 대한 보다 정확한 인식을 위해 선진 주요국 및 아시아 국가의 주택가격과 비교해 봄으로써 국내주택가격의 수준이 어느 정도인지를 알아보고자 한다.

물론 주거형태의 상이함과 물가수준 등을 고려할 때 각국이 발표하는 주택가격을 원화로 환산하여 단순 비교하기에는 무리한 점은 있으나, 각국의 주택가격을 경제규모(1인당 GDP)나 가계의 소득수준과 함께 비교해 봄으로써 그러한 한계를 극복할 수 있으리라고 본다.


서울 강남 아파트값, 미국 뉴욕 맨하탄과 비슷

금년 서울의 공급면적 33평(전용면적 25.7평) 신규아파트 평균 분양가격(‘04년 1~3차 동시분양)은 4억3,989만원으로 일본 도쿄의 신축맨션 평균분양가격 5억1,110만원과 영국 런던권 신규주택 평균가격 4억6,483만원에 비해 낮지만, 미국 북동부지역 신규주택 평균가격 4억3,430만원은 상회하고 있다. 특히 서울 강남구의 2004년 3월말 공급면적 33평 아파트 평균매매가격은 7억4,481만원으로 미국 뉴욕 맨하탄 아파트(Coop와 Condos) 2004년 1/4분기 평균매매가격 7억9,171만원(한국과 동일평형 환산)과 비슷한 수준이다.

한편 아시아 국가의 주택가격(한국과 동일평형으로 환산)과 비교해보아도 서울 아파트 매매가격에 비해 대만이 66.8%(‘02년), 싱가포르가 41.5%(’04년 1/4분기) 수준에 그치고 있으며, 홍콩(‘01년)은 서울에 비해 56.8% 가격수준에 머무르고 있다.


외환위기 후 아시아 각국 거품 빠질 때 우리는 오히려 급등

최근의 주택가격의 급등세는 주로 1인당 GDP가 2만~3만불을 상회하는 미국, 영국 등을 중심으로 이루어지고 있다. 2004년 1/4분기 현재 신규주택가격 기준으로 미국 북동부지역은 ‘93년 대비 102% 상승하였고, 영국은 1인당 GDP가 2만불을 돌파한 96년부터 상승세가 뚜렷해지면서, 95년 대비 164% 폭등하였다.

아시아 국가는 97년 외환위기 영향 등으로 일본과 대만은 이전의 하락세가 지속되며 90년대 초의 역사적 고점대비 절반 가까이 하락하여 87년 수준으로 회귀하였다. 홍콩의 경우에는 민간주택 가격은 2003년 기준으로 하였을 때 역사적 고점인 97년과 비교하여 67% 가량 급락하였다.

그러나 한국은 외환위기 당사국이면서도 98년 분양가 자율화 등 건설경기 부양조치와 미국, 영국 등의 주택가격 상승 영향으로 서울의 아파트를 중심으로 주택가격이 폭등하였는데, 2004년 매매가격 기준으로 98년 대비 97.8% 상승한 것으로 나타나고 있다.


1인단 국민소득 대비 주택가격, 한국 23.7배, 일본 11.8배, 미국 8.3배


용인동백지구의 한 아파트 건설현장. 우리나라 신규주택가격을 1인당 GDP와 비교하면 24배에 이른다. ⓒ미디어다음
각국의 주택가격의 수준을 절대 가격으로 비교하는 것은 여러모로 한계를 드러낼 수 밖에 없다. 나라마다 경제규모, 물가 등 여러 변수에 의해 차이가 나타나기 때문이다. 따라서 여기에서는 주택가격을 1인당 GDP와 비교한 ‘1인당 GDP대비 주택가격배수’와 가계소득과 비교한 ‘가격소득 대비 주택가격배수’를 이용하여 우리나라의 주택가격 수준을 알아보고자 한다.

먼저 2003년 신규주택가격을 1인당 GDP와 비교했을 때 한국 23.7배, 일본 11.8배, 영국 11.8배, 미국 8.3배 순으로 나타났다. 즉, 경제규모에 비해 한국의 주택가격 수준은 주요 선진국보다 크게 높은 것으로 나타난 것이다. 같은 해 기존 주택가격을 비교해보았을 때도 한국 24.0배, 영국 12.8배, 미국 6.3배, 일본 6.1배(2002년)로 한국의 주택가격 수준이 매우 높은 것으로 나타났다. 특히 강남구의 2004년 3월말 공급면적 33평 아파트의 1인당 GDP 대비 주택가격배수는 49.5배로 과거 주택가격이 폭등했던 1991년 일본 도쿄 도심부 중고맨션의 31.0배와 미국 뉴욕 맨하탄 아파트의 2004년 1/4분기 26.5배를 크게 상회하였다.

아시아 국가의 1인당 GDP 대비 주택가격 배수를 살펴보면 대만 13.6배(2002년), 홍콩 12.1배(2001년), 싱가포르 5.9배(2003년)로 한국 24.0배에 비해 크게 낮은 것으로 나타났다.


가계소득 대비 주택가격, 한국 10.1배, 일본 7.3배, 미국 5.5배


2003년 신규주택가격을 가계소득과 비교했을 때 한국 10.1배, 영국 7.5배, 일본 7.3배, 미국 5.5배로 가계의 주택구매력에 비해서 한국의 주택가격 수준이 높은 것으로 나타났다. 같은 해 기존주택가격을 비교했을 때에도 한국이 10.3배, 영국 8.1배, 미국 4.1배, 일본 3.7배(2002년)로 나타났다.

특히 강남구 ‘04년 3월말 공급면적 33평 아파트는 19.8배로 과거 일본의 버블이 최고조에 달했던 도쿄 도심부 중고맨션 ’90년 17.7배와 미국 뉴욕 맨하탄 아파트의 ‘04년 1/4분기 17.3배를 상회하였다. 아시아 국가의 가계소득 대비 주택가격 배수는 홍콩 6.5배(2001년), 대만 5.3배(2002년), 싱가포르 3.8배(2003년)로 서울 10.3배에 비해 크게 낮은 것으로 나타났다.

결국 우리나라의 주택가격은 경제규모나 가계 소득을 고려했을 때 선진국이나 아시아 각국에 비해 매우 높은 수준이며, 많은 거품이 반영되어 있는 것으로 풀이할 수 있다.


1인당 GDP 및 가계소득 수준 비슷한 대만, 주택가격 수준은 훨씬 낮아


우리나라와 대만의 경제규모와 가계소득은 엇비슷한 수준이다. 2003년 1인당 GDP는 미달러 기준으로 대만 12,726달러, 한국 12,628달러이며, 가계 연평균소득은 대만이 대만달러로 2002년 4,020만원, 한국은 2002년 3,351만원으로 한국에 비해 약 20% 높은 수준이다.

하지만 주택가격 수준에서는 차이가 크게 나고 있다. 먼저 대만을 살펴보면 2002년 주택가격은 1인당 GDP 5천불 및 1만불을 달성 시점인 1987년과 1992년에 비해 각각 5% 및 47% 하락하여 거품이 거의 해소되었음을 알 수 있다.

1인당 GDP 대비 주택가격배수 및 가계소득 대비 주택가격배수의 경우도 1988년 각각 50.9배 및 18.7배로 최고치를 기록하였으나, 1993년 이후 거품 붕괴로 주택가격의 하락세가 이어지며 2002년에 각각 13.6배 및 5.3배 수준으로 낮아져 선진국 수준을 소폭 상회하고 있다.

반면 우리나라의 주택가격의 상승세는 끝이 보이지 않고 있다. 2004년 주택가격은 1인당 GDP 5천불 및 1만불 달성 시점인 1989년과 1995년에 비해서 각각 140% 및 89% 상승하였다. 1986년 1인당 GDP 대비 주택가격배수 및 가계소득 대비 주택가격배수가 각각 49.5배 및 20.0배로 최고치를 기록한 후, 1990년대 초부터 버블 붕괴에 따른 주택가격 하락과 가계소득의 증가로 1인당 GDP 대비 주택가격배수가 1999년 17.9배, 가계소득 대비 주택가격배수가 1998년 7.5배로 크게 낮아졌다.

그러나 1998년 분양가 자율화 등 주택경기 활성화 조치와 미국과 영국 등 선진국 주택가격 상승 등의 영향으로 재차 주택가격이 급등하며 2003년에는 각각 24.0배 및 10.3배로 상승하였다.
결국 1980년대 말에서 1990년대 중반까지 양국의 주택가격은 비슷한 양상을 보였으나, 대만은 1990년대 초 이후 버블붕괴로 주택가격이 1987년 수준까지 하락하여 거품이 거의 해소된 반면 한국은 외환위기 직후인 1998년 말부터 주택가격이 다시 급등하면서 경제규모 및 가계의 주택구매력 수준에 비해 과도한 거품이 형성되고 있음을 알 수 있다.


서울 33평 아파트 적정가격은 2억2,110만원 ~ 2억3,464만원으로 추정


아파트값 거품빼기운동본부가 아파트 원가공개 관련 기자회견을 하고 있다. [사진=연합뉴스]
지금까지 살펴본 각국과의 비교를 통해 우리나라 아파트 가격의 적정수준은 어느정도인지 추정해보고자 한다. 먼저 신규 주택가격의 경우 미국, 일본 등 주요국의 1인당 GDP대비 신규주택 가격배수의 최대치 11.8배와 가계소득대비 신규주택가격 배수의 최대치 7.5배를 적용하여 산출한 1억7,759만원 ~ 2억6,460만원의 중간가격인 2억2,110만원이 ‘03년 서울의 공급면적 33평 신규아파트의 적정가격으로 판단된다.

기존 주택가격의 경우 주요국과 아시아 국가의 1인당 GDP대비 기존주택가격 배수의 최대치 13.6배와 가계소득대비 신규주택가격배수의 최대치 7.5배를 적용하여 구한 2억468만원 ~2억6,460만원의 중간가격인 2억3,464만원이 2003년 서울의 공급면적 33평 기존아파트의 적정매매가격으로 판단된다.

위의 내용을 토대로 결론을 내리면 다음과 같다.

첫째, 서울 아파트매매가격은 세계최고 수준이다. 최근 서울의 아파트 가격은 미국과 일본 등 세계 주요 선진국의 주택가격 수준에 근접하거나, 오히려 상회하고 있다. 특히 금년 강남구 아파트 매매가격은 미국 뉴욕 맨하탄의 아파트 매매가격(한국과 동일평형으로 환산) 수준과 비슷한 것으로 나타났다. 또한 주택가격의 버블이 최고조에 달했던 ‘89년의 일본의 경제규모나 가계소득을 고려할 때 최근의 서울의 주택가격은 당시 일본 도쿄의 주택가격 수준을 상회하고 있음을 알 수 있다.

둘째, 경제규모 및 가계의 소득수준에 비해 주택가격이 과도하게 높다. 주택가격 수준을 가장 객관적으로 평가할 수 있는 1인당 GDP 대비 주택가격 배수 및 가계소득 대비 주택가격 배수 수준이 1인당 GDP가 3만불을 상회하는 미국, 일본 등 주요 선진국을 크게 상회하는 것은 물론이고 우리와 1인당 GDP와 소득수준이 비슷한 대만 등 아시아 국가와 비교해서도 과도하게 높다. 특히 서울 강남구 아파트는 1인당 GDP 대비 주택가격 배수 및 가계소득 대비 주택가격 배수가 과거 주택가격이 폭등했던 일본 도쿄 도심부의 ‘90년 중고맨션과 미국 뉴욕 맨하탄 아파트의 금년 1/4분기 수준을 상회하고 있다.

셋째, 서울 33평 아파트의 신규분양가격 및 매매가격은 향후 35~40% 하향조정이 예상된다. 주요국과의 경제규모 및 가계소득대비 주택가격배수 비교에 의거 서울 공급면적 33평 아파트 적정가격을 추정하면 신규분양가격은 22,110만원, 매매가격은 23,464만원으로 추정할 수 있다. 하지만 이러한 가격도 1인당 GDP 대비로는 14.7~15.6배, 가계소득 대비로는 6.3~6.7배 수준이어서 대만 등 아시아 국가와 비교하면 높은 수준임을 알 수 있다. 따라서 2003년 서울 공급면적 33평 아파트 신규분양가격 및 매매가격은 경제규모 및 가계의 소득 수준에 비해 과도하게 높아 향후 약 35~40% 정도 하향 조정될 것으로 예상해 볼 수 있다.

출저=제 카페 Archisans

아~Ellatur님이 항상 다음카페에서 좋은 사진보면 "알킨사스에서 퍼갑니다~" 하시던 분이군요~^^

저는 카페에선 안퍼가고 제 co-owner일껍니다 ㅎㅎㅎㅎㅎ

ㅋㅋ 그렇군요~

음.. 요새 조용한 이유는 너무 멋진사진들이 이미 많이 올라와있어서 그래요 ㅠ.ㅠ
사실 저도 올릴려고하는데 도무지 사진들이 다 그게 그거니.. 특별하게 올릴게 없더라구요.. 예전에 너무 멋있는거만 올리는 바람에 ㅠ.ㅠ 요즘에 왠만큼 찍힌거는 보지도 않기땜시.. 그런거 같네요 누가 멋진사진좀 찍어서 올려주세요 ㅠㅠ

음 아무래도 제니하우스라던지 싸이월드에 가봐아겠군요 그럼 즐겁게 토론하시길..

Ellatur님 까페도 있군요. 놀러가보게 주소좀 알려주세요~ ^_^

mooki라는 ID로 등록돼신님이 한분있는데 저는 그거보 mookicece님께서 가입한줄알았는데 ㅎㅎ
하여튼 cafe.daum.net/archisans 입니다. 좀 누추고 약한점이많지만 놀러오세요~

mooki라는 ID로 등록돼신님이 한분있는데 저는 그거보 mookicece님께서 가입한줄알았는데 ㅎㅎ
하여튼 cafe.daum.net/archisans 입니다. 좀 누추고 약한점이많지만 놀러오세요~

우와,
님이 카페 주인장이신가요?
대단하시네요.

처음엔 저는 님이 한국이 궁금해서 가끔 여기 이 싸이트에 방문하시는 해외거주 한국분들의 하나로만 보고 곧 또 떠나겠지 아니면 잠시 시간 날때만 오신는 거겠지 했는데

이제보니 요즘은 아예 이 한국포럼에 중요한 인물이 되어서
처음 오신 분들에겐 일일이 환영한단 인사도 하고 :)
처음 올린 사진에는 일일히 좋은 리플해서 격려해주고 :)
엄청 훌륭한 역할을 하시고 완전 얼굴마담 음 그러니까 사업으로 치면 매니저 같습니다 그려. ( 칭찬하는 것이니 오해없으시길....ㅎㅎ )

네, 이젠 정말 이 SCC한국포럼에서 없어서는 안될 중요한 분이 된 것 같습니다.
님처럼 한국포럼에 애착과 애정과 그리고 약간의 중독( ? )도 가진 그런 분들이 많아졌으면 좋겠습니다.

옆에 있던 일본 포럼은 맨처음엔 포러머들도 좀 있더니 싹 사라지고 지금은 완존히 쇠퇴기( ? )에 접어들었는데 우리 한국포럼도 그런 운명길에 접어드는 건 아닌지 좀 염려가 되는데 님같은 분만 있으면 완전 회원모집에 전도수준( ? )이니 걱정 없읍니다 .
충성!

Double post.. :wallbash:

진짜 일본포럼은 완전히 일본인들은 싹 없어지고 외국<특히 동남아>애들이 점령해 버렸네요..

그래도 한국포럼엔 Dumatod님, ellatur님, infatar님, 워털루님 같은 몇몇 열성적인 분들이 계서서 정말 다행입니다..:D

열심히 글올려주시는 님들, 그리고 힘들게 찍은 자료 공유해주시는 여러분들 항상 감사드립니다.

mooki라는 ID로 등록돼신님이 한분있는데 저는 그거보 mookicece님께서 가입한줄알았는데 ㅎㅎ
하여튼 cafe.daum.net/archisans 입니다. 좀 누추고 약한점이많지만 놀러오세요~

저 방금 ★TP3★ 로 가입했습니다. 그 무키는 제가 아닌 모조품인듯? ㅋㅋ 앞으로 자주 놀러갈께요

ㅎㅎㅎ 저도 waterloo로 가입했어요!!! 카페가 깔끔해서 좋네요 :)

한국 회원님들 열심히 활동해주셔서 매우 매우 감사합니다~~ ^^ moderator인 제가 오히려 회원님들의 엄청난 열성에 따라가지 못하는것 같아 죄송합니다 ㅠㅠ 우리 한국포럼 계속 잘 키워보아요~~ ^_^

제가 운영자는 아니지만 (미국에살아서그런지 주민등록번호가 이상하네요;;; ) 제친구와 같이 '설립' 한겁니다.

이거 보고 진짜 화나서 올립니다.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=2012422#post2012422

평양에 그 높은 호텔에대한 말입니다
Why do you people want to fly an Airplane on it? Evil vs Evil?

EDIT: Oh wait, the people living in North Korea are "commies", their lives don't really count.

Go get an A380, oh wait, that's German, the people who built it have commie blood in them. Get an all-American B-747-400 to demolish the building and kill the people in the surrounding areas!

북한이 communists이긴 하지만 저래도 됍니까????!!!! 저놈 어디사는지만 알면 (edited for content)....

아. 이게 제 300th post인데 기분나쁘게 올려서 좀그렇군요....

이거 보고 진짜 화나서 올립니다.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=2012422#post2012422

평양에 그 높은 호텔에대한 말입니다


북한이 communists이긴 하지만 저래도 됍니까????!!!! 저놈 어디사는지만 알면 (edited for content)....

아. 이게 제 300th post인데 기분나쁘게 올려서 좀그렇군요....

미국사는 필리핀놈이군요.
이런 포스트들 많습니다. 북한만 나오면 관계없는 것이라도 모두 정치얘기, 김정일얘기로 해서 증오심을 표현하는 것으로 끝나지요.
그저 아무 생각없이 장난삼아 아무렇게나 얘기하고 있는 거네요.
입 잘 못 놀리면 언젠간 화를 당하겠지요.

Hello, I don't want to be rude or anything but can this thread be in plain English instead of Korean because not everybody can understand Korean. But really, it doesn't bother me at all.

In my opinion, I noticed that people aren't too interested about the Korean forum because of a lack of interest and dialogue. Its not like any forum that I visted here at Skyscrapercity.com, I just don't see a lot of forumers participating in this Korean Forum. In fact, I'm even losing a lot interest as I see less and less forumers participating. I seriously think that there have be a major revamp of this forum.

저 어제 뉴욕에서 워싱턴이랑 피츠버그 거쳐 돌아왔습니다. :)

@Ellatur: 그런 녀석들은 그냥 무시하세요. 여기에도 ( 특히 월드포럼에는 ) 머리에 든 게 없는 애들이 워낙 많아서..

@ London

why didn't u tell me u were visiting NYC!! I would've showed u around EVERY corner of the city and show u some museums for free! (yes, i am young and powerful :) )

and seaniscoming님 is back! PLEASE visit more frequently!

@ London

why didn't u tell me u were visiting NYC!! I would've showed u around EVERY corner of the city and show u some museums for free! (yes, i am young and powerful :) )



lol.. Maybe I should have told you earlier :) Anyways, here are some pix from the trip. (Yeah, I know I should buy a better camera. The one I'm using right now is only 2.0 megapixel with 3x zoom. :()

New York, NY

The view from our hotel room

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/5127/NYCPan_1.jpg

From the ESB

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/1200/P1010073.jpg
http://img66.exs.cx/img66/1702/P1010090.jpg
http://img66.exs.cx/img66/504/P1010074.jpg

From Liberty Island

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/4404/P1010122.jpg

From the ferry to Battery Park

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/2414/P1010150.jpg

From the same angle - you can see 7 World Trade rising :)

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/473/P1010151.jpg

Monoliths in the Financial District

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/6594/P1010166.jpg

B/W Version

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/6509/P1010168.jpg

Philadelphia, PA

The view of Two Liberty Place from the hotel room.

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/2031/P1010178.jpg

Hey! It's a time portal :)

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/4327/P1010185.jpg

The skyline as seen from I-95

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/9596/P1010201.jpg

Washington DC

Everyone should know what this buliding is :)

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/1662/P1010107.jpg

Washington Monument - undergoing a ground level renovation.

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/1172/P1010108.jpg

The Smithsonian Castle

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/8929/P1010109.jpg

Cranes... and the Capitol

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/9230/P1010110.jpg

The Lunar Module of Apollo 11, exhibited in the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum.

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/9391/P1010111.jpg

Luray Caverns, VA

The reflection...

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/2481/P1010112.jpg

One of the oldest monoliths in the cavern

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/6227/P1010113.jpg

Surreal...

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/4382/P1010114.jpg

Tourists

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/6900/P1010115.jpg

Frozen in time

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/7524/P1010116.jpg

Shenandoah National Park

A panorama of the National Park taken from the Skyline Drive.

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/3517/ShenandoahPan_1.jpg

Pittsburgh

Downtown as seen from the Mount Washington Incline

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/3660/P1010117.jpg

From the same angle

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/3308/pittsburghpan1.jpg

O wow! Thank you, London ON--that was quite a trip you took there! :cool: Thank you so much for the pictures, a fine collection indeed, and those caves in Virginia are awesome! :okay: You should have let Ellatur know that you were coming to New York, though. ;)

As to the subject of this thread: until Woor switched the conversation to English (good move, thanks! :) ) I understood nothing but the thread title and the sentiment it expresses.

Frankly, my friends (I hope you don't mind my calling you that), I don't see things in such a negative way. It's summertime. People go on vacation, they spend more time outdoors, and this quite naturally results in a slowdown in forum activities. I enjoy the Korean forum tremendously. Your country has a seemingly endless supply of beautiful cities and fascinating projects--sometimes I have a hard time keeping up with things!

So please don't feel bad about things, Ellatur! :pet: I realize I'm letting you down by being behind myself--I promised you an account of the University of California at Berkeley, inspired by princeofseoul's beautifully illustrated thread of Seoul National University. You've given me new impetus to follow through (there's a draft in the WP part of my computer).

I cheer you all on and send you warm greetings! :grouphug:

I never been to NY. I live in TX. Very hot here.

wow it looks like you had a nice trip london :) It must have been very tiring trip if you took the car... :sleepy:

@haha Whose_Homepage, I understand you quite much, and of course we do not mind being called a friend! what else are we?

and beautiful pictures London!! by the way, did u stay in Fort Lee Hilton front of the George Washington Bridge whilst you stayed in NYC? I live in the next town! it seems so weird to see my neighborhood from your pictures lol

were u satisfied by philadelphia? it was a great disappointment for me, even though i didn't expect much... well, i hope u had a great trip!

edited

koreans are not very familiar with using proper english(including myself of course) ,therefore they often want to post in korean.

그리고 내가 생각하기로는 한국인들도 문제가 있어.
자신들은 외국욕 매일 매일 게시판에서 해대면서 외국인들이 한국비판 하면 조금이라도 참지 못하는 자가본위 위주의 사고방식.그런것들은 그냥 침착하게 넘어가면 되건만 . 나도 한국인이지만 한국인들 그다지 cool 하지 못하다는 느낌 자주 받는다.

:)

그리고 내가 생각하기로는 한국인들도 문제가 있어.
자신들은 외국욕 매일 매일 게시판에서 해대면서 외국인들이 한국비판 하면 조금이라도 참지 못하는 자가본위 위주의 사고방식.그런것들은 그냥 침착하게 넘어가면 되건만 . 나도 한국인이지만 한국인들 그다지 cool 하지 못하다는 느낌 자주 받는다.

맞습니다.
우선 저부터도 많은 인간적 약점과 앞뒤 안맞은 언행등 고쳐야할 점 많은 게 사실입니다.
지적해주신대로 자기본위 위주의 사고방식과 냉정히 대처하는 법을 더 노력하도록 하겠습니다.

하지만, 님의 글의 느낌과 톤은 내용과는 좀 다르게 단어선택에서 오는 지는 몰라도 뉘앙스와 어감이 좀 침착하고 cool한 느낌은 들지 않는군요. 예를 들면 "자신들은", "해대면서"등....
해댄다?..

그리고 과장이 심하시군요.
여기 오히려 한국포럼에선 한국사람이 줄고 리플이 없어서 걱정이지 매일 매일 게시판에 외국욕을 해댈만큼 정열적인( ? ) 분은 없는 것으로 사료됩니다만...어떠신지요?

그리고 그런 문제 지적은 님의 말씀처럼 COOL한 느낌이 들게
좀 겸손하고 다른 사람이 기분 나쁘지 않게 단어선택과 정중하고 따뜻한 느낌으로 글을 쓰셨다면 더욱 좋아겠습니다. 인사도 좀 한국포럼에서 하시고....( 물론 첫 포스트에서 처음 왔다고 밝히신 건 봤습니다만 한국포럼에서 인사가 아직 없으시네요. )

눈에 보이지 않고 언제라도 로그아웃하면 끈어지는 인터넷 사이버 세계라도
엄연히 사람들이 만나고 헤어지고 하는 공간인만큼 기본적인 인사등 네티켓은 현대인의 필수겠지요?

미국사는 필리핀놈이군요.
이런 포스트들 많습니다. 북한만 나오면 관계없는 것이라도 모두 정치얘기, 김정일얘기로 해서 증오심을 표현하는 것으로 끝나지요.
그저 아무 생각없이 장난삼아 아무렇게나 얘기하고 있는 거네요.
입 잘 못 놀리면 언젠간 화를 당하겠지요.

gentlejunho님( 준호님 ),
다시 생각해보니, 이 것 때문에 그러시는같군요.

사실 "lotrfan55345" 쓴 글 이런 종류의 글들은 볼 때마다 화가 납니다.
외국인이라 할지라도 관심에서 우러나오고 걱정해주는 건전한 비판이나 우정어린 쓴소리라면 사실 너무 고맙지요.

하지만 이런 글은 아무리 장난삼아 농담삼아 하더라도 인간의 생명등 존엄성등 아주 기본적인 것을 무시하고 잔혹하게 말하는 것은 당사자들에 관계된 사람들에겐 지나가는 우수개소리라도 정말 피가 솟구치게 합니다.

그러나 보세요. 다들 그냥 헛소리니 그냥 무시하자는 분위기로 넘어갔지 누가 나중에 이 필리핀사람에게 한마디라도 싫은 소릴 했습니까? 그저 참자고 하고 마음속으로 삭히는 분위기였지 뭐 필리핀에 대해 욕은 커녕 나쁜 소릴 한마디라도 하기라도 했답니까?
다들 금방 진정하고 화제도 금방 다른 내용으로 바뀌었구요.

저요?
오히려 월드포럼에 가서 필리핀 마닐라를 아시아 최고의 Night Life City로 치켜세우고 광고해 주고 왔답니다.( 마음 속으론 사실 한 대 날려주고 싶었는데...... )

click ! - 필리핀 추켜세워주기편 (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=125232&page=1&pp=20)

주절주절 변명하는 것 같아 죄송하지만
이 거 한번 클릭해 보시고 말씀 하세요. 우리 한국인들이 외국욕을 매일매일 하고 있다고 쉽게 말씀하실수가 있으신지......

The dirtiest city in the World (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=125262)

어쨋든 그 동안 문제가 많은 한국인( 북한사람 ) 으로서 이젠 문제가 없으신 많은 한국분들에게 이 싸이트 한국포럼을 부탁드리면서 저는 이만 물러가겠습니다.

아, Infatar 님도 보기 힘들어지실지도 모르겠습니다.
저랑 같이 멀리 가게 되었거든요.
좀 있다 근처에서 만나기로 했는데....제 시간에 도착하려는지 모르겠네요.
다시 나중에 시간이 있으면 작별인사 다시 드리고 혹 못 오면 이것으로 작별인사를 대신합니다.

그동안 많은 물의를 일으켜드려 죄송하고 잘못된 점보단 좋은 점을 기억해주셨으면 좋겠습니다.

멋진 Ellatur님 너무 죄송합니다.
그토록 따뜻한 말씀으로 환영해 주셨는데.....
아,그러고보니 한국포럼에 매일 매일 욕하는 사람은 없어도 매일 매일 인사하는 분은 있네요.
바로 Ellatur님!
님 덕분에 좋은 인상갖고 떠납니다.

오프라인에서 해야할 일들이 너무 많아서 당분간 못오게 될 것 같습니다. 솔직히 말씀드리면 Infatar님을 만나려고 여기 다시 왔습니다. 이제 다행이 만났으니.....

불가( 佛家 )에 '회자정리 거자필반'( 會者定離 去者必返 )이라는 말이 있습니다.
만나면 헤어짐이 정한 이치이고, 헤어지면 반드시 만난다는 의미입니다.
그러기에 다시 또 뵙기를 기대해도 되겠지요. :hug: :hug: :hug:
모두 건강하십시요!

no! please come back!!!! NOOOOO!! i was so happy u came back! NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
i am gonna hope that u come back ok?
spare some time for this forum! and if you are uncomfortable being a 북한사람, do not worry! i am half 북한사람 by blood! DO NOT LEAVE PERMANENTLY OK? and at least come visit my cafe in cafe.daum.net/archisans

also, mr.junho (sounds like a guy i know in this 학원lol) the population of korean forumers are small, and we come here as a part of family or friend. thus, we generally have kind hearts. we only get "rowdy" when the rights we have as koreans are abused by others or when our nation is attacked by misunderstanding and prejudice, and we only use korean in this forum so people of other nationality would not understand if our posts are too private, or to describe something better, or for some of non-english speakers.

wow... so infatar님 is not gonna come back either???? who will defend korea now?

Well, I don't understand 4/5 of that topic. But it's normal for the Korean forum to speak Korean. Yet, De facto, it limits the foreign participation. I'm not blaming the Korean communauty about this. Don't even bother trying the French forum if you're not fluent in French. And the foreign participation of the French forum is pretty low (unexistant).

wow... so infatar님 is not gonna come back either???? who will defend korea now?

하하하 :) , 전 좀 있다가 갑니다.그리고 이 싸이트 자주는 찾아오지 못한다해도 시간나면 리플은 못해도 접속해 보도록 노력하겠습니다. 이젠 뒤에서 조용히 구경하는 재미를 만끽할 때도 된것도 같고....
어찌되었든 감사합니다. :)

where are u going?

well

try to spare some time for ssc

글쎄요 정말로 싫은 사람이 있다면 스 사람에 대한 인신 공격보다는 논리적인 근거로 그 사람의 의견을 반박하는 것도 좋겠지요.

사실 여기서 한국어로 글 올리는것은 규정인가 모르겠지만 아무튼 영문 포럼에서는 가급적이면 삼가해 주었으면 하는데요. 뭐 규정이라면 할수 없구요.

:)

koreans are not very familiar with using proper english(including myself of course) ,therefore they often want to post in korean.

Perfectly understandable! :)

Yet I think that occasionally slightly failed efforts at using "proper English" should not preclude the Korean forumers from using that language. In fact, I have seen many people write excellent English here, and no one should feel shy about making an occasional mistake. :angel1:

I've seen lots of IMproper English here on SCity from people who ought to know a whole lot better. :bash:

So please don't feel ashamed or afraid, my dear Korean friends! :) Just go ahead and say what's on your mind ... whether it's proper English or not! After all, who cares, as long as you make yourself understood. :)

I plan to stick with you. :grouphug:

Of course this is in part because I :love: dumatod right back but also because the entire idea of the Huaiwei Noodle Soup Company (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=75883&page=2) originated right here in the Korean forum.

So please don't abandon ship! :grouphug:

If, on the other hand, you want to stick together and write in Korean, that's fine by me as well ... I'll still be able to admire the pictures. :cool:

Dearest Korean forumers,

I received a message from Mookie, who asked for my help to relay this information to all of you.

Mookie is having problems with his PC, and he does not know how long it will take for this PC to be repaired. He does not have easy access to the internet now, and also misplaced his SSC password, and hence may not be with us for an extended period.

Therefore, he asked for your understanding if he fails to reply to your PM during his period of absence.

Lets wish his PC well!

I will always be here asking all my boring questions

Don't worry about speaking english

You just have to practice and make mistakes to get better

so the more you practice the better you get

Hell I am english and make a lot of mistakes

It really doesn't matter

Max

I will always be here asking all my boring questions

Don't worry about speaking english

You just have to practice and make mistakes to get better

so the more you practice the better you get

Hell I am english and make a lot of mistakes

It really doesn't matter

Max

Dearest Korean forumers,

I received a message from Mookie, who asked for my help to relay this information to all of you.

Mookie is having problems with his PC, and he does not know how long it will take for this PC to be repaired. He does not have easy access to the internet now, and also misplaced his SSC password, and hence may not be with us for an extended period.

Therefore, he asked for your understanding if he fails to reply to your PM during his period of absence.

Lets wish his PC well!

it was ok for a moment, at last it died...

perhaps we should have another moderator for korean forums. the other two moderators, Chad and GreyX, never comes here anyways... i'm sure our dumatod-nim, waterloo-nim, woor20-nim or London-nim would do a great job

it was ok for a moment, at last it died...

perhaps we should have another moderator for korean forums. the other two moderators, Chad and GreyX, never comes here anyways... i'm sure our dumatod-nim, waterloo-nim, or London-nim would do a great job


Well you need someone who posts a lot and is often present....

Who speaks English and Korean.......



Well........ who said Woor20?

ooh i forgot about woor20!

May I add efesese, author of today's banner, to the lineup. :)

To complete my sentiments here: I'm very sorry to hear about Mookiecece, and I wish both him and his computer the very best! May he be able to join us again soon ... :angel1:

efesese, Sunni (if he will EVER come back), and who else?

Seems like practically EVERY Korean forumer is being mentioned now! :D

LOL

well, lets cut it too active people. i have not seen efesese for long time, and woor20 does not visit here as often..

Hey people I'm back. I still haven't got my computer fixed but did manage to log in. I will drop by whenever possible until it's fixed. It seems like all my electronic appliacnes are doomed to death. First my computer, then few days later my playstation 2 died... T-T

Hey you guys forgot about Donkie-nim!

haven't i put him already?


so sorry

Donkie nim should be one of the candidate INDEED!

who else?

looks like everyone is gonna be a candidate :colgate:

My computer is all fixed up. got a new motherboard, ram card and power supply... cost me lots of money T-T

That's wonderful news, Mookie! :happy:

Sorry you had to shell out all those $$$$ though. :pet:

Now that mookie nim is here.... lets discuss about the deputy moderator

@ Whose Homepage: Thank you for your concern~... It's ok though. I bought my computer at a bargain anyway. Considering that, the loss is not too terrible :)

@Ellatur: That's a great idea. It'd be cool to have someone pick up the slack when I'm not around. Is anybody up for the task?

we should vote

Lol, ellatur! :laugh: You're mighty eager to get things going! :horse:

Before there can be a vote you need candidates! :)

this shall be the ULTIMATE list of candidate
Dumatod nim
Waterloo "
London "
efesese "
Donkie "
woor20 "
Sunni " (if he will ever come back)
infatar " "
Seaniscoming " "

Hey, I would like to add that the reason why less and less forumers are coming to the Korea Forum is because it is so darn boring. It lacks the interest and the interaction that other Forums have. Plus, not a whole of Koreans can't speak the English language very well. My ancestry is Korean and I am born and raised in California, USA and I can't even read, speak, or write Korean, so its difficult to see that there are threads in the Korea Forum that is only in Korean. That's pretty all I have to say on this issue.

Well, the forum is not what it is made for forumers....it is the opposite. It becomes interesting or boring depending on what you folks chose to contribute, agreed?

Wow, I have to say that the Korean Forum has went to its big low. Dumatod declared herself as "self-banned", Tanya is now banned, Seaniscoming is not coming at all, and infatar who is very "radical" is not ever coming back to post any more stuff. So, really what's the use of reinvigorating the Korea Forum if more and more people are leaving or not visiting the Forum?

As I said before a thousand times already,

MERGE ALL THE SUB-FORUMS AND MAKE IT A SINGLE KOREAN FORUM!!

Our modest mods won't ever listen until the last forumer is gone. Mokie, please why don't you just go back to the "single forum" and see how the change will look like. If it turns out to be as bad as now, then you can always go back to the sub-forums. It's not like you're afraid to change, aren't you? Come on!

plasma168, are you korean?

^^ plasma's one of the original Korean forumers

Dear plasma, we've been over this many times. I don't see how merging all subforums will make things better. There are other things we can do to reinvigorate this place, such as posting more photos of urban Korea.

ooooooooo septermber 2002, and you too mookicece! and i believe sunni-nim is one of the original member? i miss him. as soon as i came here, he took off..... (gasp. wtf does that mean?!)

Yeah. Plasma, Mookiecece and Sunni are the three original Korean forumers. For me, I've been here for about 20 months as it says on the left. We didn't even have our own subforum back then. :)

Talk about Sunni, he's a legend. He lived (I don't know if he still does) in Gold Coast, and he was, by far, the most active Korean forumer ever. He was the only Korean forumer who had more than 3,000 posts, and nobody has ever written that many posts till these days, not to mention that he was really a nice guy. If we ever had a forumer who the words can't describe, he was the one.

Where is him right now? You ask me. When we finally had a subforum and everything was getting along fine, he just left, not even saying goodbye.

i found 6fran nim who also joined in september 2002!

ah~ my love of archeology at work! (not finding OLD things but LOST things. lets not take my words the wrong way :) )


wow... sunni nim lived in Gold Coast........ city of my dreams (tears)

maybe he still lives there.. i can ask my friend for whereabouts if he still ives in GC

Sadly since there isn't much going on in the Korea Forum. I'm unofficially leaving this Forum for good until there are some major improvements. Until then, I'm leaving.

Well, it seems the Korean forum will have trouble to survive the actual situation. But if nothing happens here I might not be posting a lot. And the French forum who stayed silent for quiet some time (they even called for a vote of the French forumers to see it merged in the european forum) is now reviving. So who knows.

wow...... PEOPLE 'RECRUIT' YOUR FRIENDS TO COME HERE!

I am gonna post an advertisement in skyscrapers cafe right now


-edit


it came out so crappy... :sleepy:

The problem is that the majority of Korean skyscraper fans don't speak English fluently. In fact, they already have a Korean forum that is even bigger than this site (with about 10,000 members) where they can communicate with others in Korean.

Some of you say that there is little discussion here because some arent fluent in English, yet at the same time, some also argue they are handicapped when some of you converse in Korean, because they were ethnic Koreans but where not conversant in their "mothertongue?"

So why not pursue a bilingual approach, something most local forums would not have done?

The problem is that the majority of Korean skyscraper fans don't speak English fluently. In fact, they already have a Korean forum that is even bigger than this site (with about 10,000 members) where they can communicate with others in Korean.

whats the site?

whats the site?

The one in Daum.net. You know it better. ;)

you koreans give up too easily

I thought you were hard workers

the best thing you can do is to say if you want to keep the korean forum alive you have to advertise it

each member should go onto as many korean chatrooms/koreans and post links and explain the problem etc

when you have done this post us the links here to prove you have done your bit

The best way to help a forum is not abandoning it, that's definite!

I don't think it's a structure issue but rather appealing to international forumers as well instead of locals. That's the approach I took with the NYC forum, I made it comfortable for everyone from all over the world to have a visit and enjoy it in there, then the local New Yorkers also joined in.

Perhaps this should be considered with the Korean forum too.

you koreans give up too easily

I thought you were hard workers

the best thing you can do is to say if you want to keep the korean forum alive you have to advertise it

each member should go onto as many korean chatrooms/koreans and post links and explain the problem etc

when you have done this post us the links here to prove you have done your bit

what i have done! yes! everyone should do it!

---

ah~ 48 hours of no computer! but i dealt better than i thought. i guess my addiction is far less than i thought it was :)

Holy cow, the website is really silent.

Can anyone tell me why Dumatod already left us? I'm surprised to know that she wanted to ban herself from the website. Also, what's so surprising is that Tanya is gone as well as Seaniscoming (who I can't even understand why he's act so strange) and also Infatar decided to leave as well. Oh, well.

Can anyone tell me why Dumatod already left us? I'm surprised to know that she wanted to ban herself from the website. Also, what's so surprising is that Tanya is gone as well as Seaniscoming (who I can't even understand why he's act so strange) and also Infatar decided to leave as well. Oh, well.


Tanya was banned,

Seaniscomming and Infatar left, I don't understand Seaniscomming either.

Dumatod was strange too, well.


Why did they all left. No, clear idea. But they left.

Tanya was banned,

Seaniscomming and Infatar left, I don't understand Seaniscomming either.

Dumatod was strange too, well.


Why did they all left. No, clear idea. But they left.


Everyone have the free will to come and go as they wish.
Some newbie can be coming here anytime whereas the others are going out of sight at the same time.

As far as I know, Seaniscoming and infatar are very busy for doing their own business in the real world. They just don't have much free time to post here.
Also, they fully know that they were and are not the ones who are warmly welcomed here.(except few korean forumers)

It is not that strange that some people are willing to pursue much more fun in the real world than those in this cyber world.
Everybody wants to be the part of the world which can share a special affinity.
Maybe, they can't feel the sense of belonging here any more.

Can anyone tell me why Dumatod already left us? I'm surprised to know that she wanted to ban herself from the website. Also, what's so surprising is that Tanya is gone as well as Seaniscoming (who I can't even understand why he's act so strange) and also Infatar decided to leave as well. Oh, well.

Since when you care about them?
what's so strange about Seaniscoming?

Please, let them go as their wish if you still care about them.

They all the member of a certain site and club.(INCLUDING ME)
Maybe, they needed each other so much(maybe, their relationship was based on mutual dependence so much)
band together.

Everyone have the free will to come and go as they wish.
Some newbie can be coming here anytime whereas the others are going out of sight at the same time.

As far as I know, Seaniscoming and infatar are very busy for doing their own business in the real world. They just don't have much free time to post here.
Also, they fully know that they were and are not the ones who are warmly welcomed here.(except few korean forumers)

It is not that strange that some people are willing to pursue much more fun in the real world than those in this cyber world.
Everybody wants to be the part of the world which can share a special affinity.
Maybe, they can't feel the sense of belonging here any more.


I never said they didn't had the right to leave. For Seaniscomming, I say I don't understand him, not that I don't understand why he leave ,it was more a general thing. His posts were confusing and hard to get his ideas. And he was often saying people here disliked him or that he wasn't welcome.


For your information, I'm seriously considering leaving the forum too. Because of too much anti French trolling on this forum (and always from the same national communauties).

For your information, I'm seriously considering leaving the forum too. Because of too much anti French trolling on this forum (and always from the same national communauties).

Do and think as you wish!
Also, I'm leaving too.

It is one thing about wanting to leave a forum.

It is another thing when while leaving, previous posts with this forum were actually deleted out.

I find the later behavior highly selfish, to say the least....

As to the deleted Images here.

Many pictures were under the tanya's copyright, her accounts of image hostings and her help for openning image storages for foreigners.

since tanya was banned without any single warning note here.
Her threads simply were deleted without any massage from mod, even though threads weren't good.

So are you expecting that tanya is keeping on helping and supporting this forum?
She already tolerated that many korean forumers had used her pics without her name and previous permissions until she was banned.

Yeah, they all are very selfish!
But I don't think she(tanya) has to devote to this forum with her rock-steady support constantly, even though she had recieved cold treatment here.
Actually, It was just preventing the protection of her copyright from random image copy without her permission
since she was not able to come here any more.


neither more nor less

For the record, the images were not deleted by any mod...they were deleted by the forumers themselves.

And who in the world is this tanya person? Come to think of it, why do you sound like you are speaking up for her?

OK,
Blame them as much as you want to
think and do as you like

(you can also blame me if you want)
It seems that being blamed is the last thing I can do here for you while I am leaving this forum for good.

For the record, the images were not deleted by any mod...they were deleted by the forumers themselves.

And who in the world is this tanya person? Come to think of it, why do you sound like you are speaking up for her?

You don't know anything
I am talking about tanya's threads and ban without previuous warnings and proper notes which were deleted by mod before she was banned

OK, forget it!
It is just old history!
No one care it here any more.
Tanya is happy with that. She forgot that!

She just wants to protect her images since she can't know what is happennining her images here any more.( She has the right to protect her images anytime anywhere isn't she?)
Anyway, she lost linking after avoidance of this site for a while

And who in the world is this tanya person? Come to think of it, why do you sound like you are speaking up for her?

Tanya is one of my friend, OK?

Think as you like OK?
I'm leaving now!
If you still any thinking of me, ban me please
I am very HAPPY with that

What a mess. BTW, the orthografy of Tanya was of better quality I think. Yet I won't bet my left hand (I'm left handed) on this.

For your information, I'm seriously considering leaving the forum too. Because of too much anti French trolling on this forum (and always from the same national communauties).

Hey, Exarchus, do not leave this forum it would be so sad :cry: without you and your threads.

Hey, Exarchus, do not leave this forum it would be so sad :cry: without you and your threads.

Sorry I wanted to quote some anti French posts but finally I edited it to not spam the Korean forum with a problem that doesn't concern it. Just know I have a lot of them. Quiet a lot. And only in a few days.


Since you go often on the euro forum, you must see what I'm talking about.

Yes i also saw lots of anti-French filth in some threads and agree they are very insulting aspecially if you are from France... . Damn i had very super discussions with you... ;)

Since when you care about them?
what's so strange about Seaniscoming?

Please, let them go as their wish if you still care about them.

They all the member of a certain site and club.(INCLUDING ME)
Maybe, they needed each other so much(maybe, their relationship was based on mutual dependence so much)
band together.

whats the site?

Yes i also saw lots of anti-French filth in some threads and agree they are very insulting aspecially if you are from France... . Damn i had very super discussions with you... ;)


I"m still here. But it's increasing more and more. So.... let's see. I've warned various mod and admins several times, without much results.

exarchus if you leave, i will make sure you regret it! :devil: :evil: :mad: :mad2: :jk:

The Korean forum has been around for almost a year now if not more. It has come a long way, through drama, more drama and some more drama... If you've been around here long enough, you know what I'm talking about. :no:

Despite all the troubles, it's stiill managed to have fine collections of photos and discussions about the urban Korea. This would not have been possible without you forumers' contribution. Let's keep up that effort like we did for the past year and the forum will continue to grow.

The Korea Forum was very exciting last year and I remembered that it had a lot of pictures that I always wanted to see. But as I see a lot of nonsense coming from some very immature forumers, I get really ticked off. I even think that the Japanese Forum is a lot exciting and it has a lot of pictures that never bores me to death. The pictures of Tokyo and many Japanese cities never gets boring. I just don't understand why there isn't much pictures of other cities such as Incheon (Inchon) or Ulsan at all. I know that there has been a lot of focus on cities such as Seoul and Busan (Pusan) but there isn't anything interesting since there are less people posting pictures.

As I watched the Japanese Forum, my interest in Japan grew even more. The forumers are very active in posting cool pictures of Tokyo and I even think that Japan is trully a "First-World" nation in all of Asia. The Japanese Forum gave me an impression that Japan is a wealthy nation with a relatively pro-American attitude of things.

From looking at South Korea. I'm very dissapointed and very frustrated with their "corrupt" politics as well as the youth population who are very liberal (probably close to even worshipping Kim Jong-il as a God) and the young people are very anti-American.

I used to think that it was necessary for all 37,500 US troops to station in South Korea to defend itself from a possible attack from Communist North Korea but with the current anti-American attitude in South Korea, I personally think that it is time to pull out of that politically confused country. Our troops doesn't need a slap in the face from those Pro-North Korean sympahizers. The Uri Party and Pres. Roh are destroying South Korea's long mutual relationship with the US. The US doesn't need any more "bullshit" from Pres. Roh and the Ruling Uri Party (Pro-North Korean fringe party in my opinion)

My opinion on South Korea has gotten worst recently and I personally think that South Korea needs to do a better job getting its PR image intact. With the radical left-wing ultranationalism/xenophobia happening in South Korea, I beginning to question the judgement and logic of young people in South Korea. Pretty soon once the older population who are very pro-US/anti-North are gone, South Korea will turn into a mess. I'm believe that both North Korea as well as South Korea will reunify under "one" Korea but I think that with the anti-Americanism as well as the young people embracing Kim Jong-il in South Korea, expect a unified "Communist" Korea coming in the near future.

The Korea Forum was very exciting last year and I remembered that it had a lot of pictures that I always wanted to see. But as I see a lot of nonsense coming from some very immature forumers, I get really ticked off. I even think that the Japanese Forum is a lot exciting and it has a lot of pictures that never bores me to death. The pictures of Tokyo and many Japanese cities never gets boring. I just don't understand why there isn't much pictures of other cities such as Incheon (Inchon) or Ulsan at all. I know that there has been a lot of focus on cities such as Seoul and Busan (Pusan) but there isn't anything interesting since there are less people posting pictures.

As I watched the Japanese Forum, my interest in Japan grew even more. The forumers are very active in posting cool pictures of Tokyo and I even think that Japan is trully a "First-World" nation in all of Asia. The Japanese Forum gave me an impression that Japan is a wealthy nation with a relatively pro-American attitude of things.

From looking at South Korea. I'm very dissapointed and very frustrated with their "corrupt" politics as well as the youth population who are very liberal (probably close to even worshipping Kim Jong-il as a God) and the young people are very anti-American.

I used to think that it was necessary for all 37,500 US troops to station in South Korea to defend itself from a possible attack from Communist North Korea but with the current anti-American attitude in South Korea, I personally think that it is time to pull out of that politically confused country. Our troops doesn't need a slap in the face from those Pro-North Korean sympahizers. The Uri Party and Pres. Roh are destroying South Korea's long mutual relationship with the US. The US doesn't need any more "bullshit" from Pres. Roh and the Ruling Uri Party (Pro-North Korean fringe party in my opinion)

My opinion on South Korea has gotten worst recently and I personally think that South Korea needs to do a better job getting its PR image intact. With the radical left-wing ultranationalism/xenophobia happening in South Korea, I beginning to question the judgement and logic of young people in South Korea. Pretty soon once the older population who are very pro-US/anti-North are gone, South Korea will turn into a mess. I'm believe that both North Korea as well as South Korea will reunify under "one" Korea but I think that with the anti-Americanism as well as the young people embracing Kim Jong-il in South Korea, expect a unified "Communist" Korea coming in the near future.

You made a good point where you said Koreans are xenophobic. But anti-American sentiment is a different story. There are things that America did good to Korea, but there are more things that America did bad to Korea. If you study Korean history more deeply, you'll understand things better. I don't blame you just because you're saying that you're disappointed with S. Korea. Your behavior is understandable when I consider what you probably have learned about Korea in the U.S. But you still have lots of things to know and realize to understand Korea better.

There's one thing that I don't really understand about you. That is, why you think Korea always has to follow or obey the US?? I really don't understand. The two are different, separate countries. If it's beneficial for Korea to be with the US, they'll be. But if they think that in some cases anti-America is needed, they will be anti. It's about international relationship. There's no eternal friends or eternal enemies in international relationships. And you know that. Also, the current US is disliked by the most of the world for the reasons that you might know. For now, anti-American sentiment is nothing special. Don't you know this?

And more importantly, anti-American things or some sort of ideology has little to do with this forum, doesn't it?

You made a good point where you said Koreans are xenophobic. But anti-American sentiment is a different story. There are things that America did good to Korea, but there are more things that America did bad to Korea. If you study Korean history more deeply, you'll understand things better. I don't blame you just because you're saying that you're disappointed with S. Korea. Your behavior is understandable when I consider what you probably have learned about Korea in the U.S. But you still have lots of things to know and realize to understand Korea better.

There's one thing that I don't really understand about you. That is, why you think Korea always has to follow or obey the US?? I really don't understand. The two are different, separate countries. If it's beneficial for Korea to be with the US, they'll be. But if they think that in some cases anti-America is needed, they will be anti. It's about international relationship. There's no eternal friends or eternal enemies in international relationships. And you know that. Also, the current US is disliked by the most of the world for the reasons that you might know. For now, anti-American sentiment is nothing special. Don't you know this?

And more importantly, anti-American things or some sort of ideology has little to do with this forum, doesn't it?
Well, Kyenan. South Korea doesn't need to take orders from the United States. South Korea shouldn't go off course in its relations with the US by having college dropouts or young people getting too angry about the US hard-line stance towards "Communist" North Korea. The US has helped South Korea get back to its feet economically as well as politically. Without the US getting involved in the Korean War, all of Korea would've been "communist" and dirt-poor.

I don't think that people in this Forum are pro-North Korean or anti-American at all. I just think that some people (young people) are very pro-North Korean and they are very anti-American. It disturb me as an American. I sometimes wonder whether or not if it is necessary to even call South Korea an ally to the U.S. when right now, Pres. Bush seemed to focus on Japan as Asia's biggest ally. It seemed to me that Japan is viewed way too favorable over South Korea right now. A lot of people love to visit Japan over South Korea for many reasons. Even though Japan have the same xenophobic tendencies just like South Korea have. But still, Japan is still viewed as a country to visit for many foreigners like me.

The Korea Forum was very exciting last year and I remembered that it had a lot of pictures that I always wanted to see. But as I see a lot of nonsense coming from some very immature forumers, I get really ticked off. I even think that the Japanese Forum is a lot exciting and it has a lot of pictures that never bores me to death. The pictures of Tokyo and many Japanese cities never gets boring. I just don't understand why there isn't much pictures of other cities such as Incheon (Inchon) or Ulsan at all. I know that there has been a lot of focus on cities such as Seoul and Busan (Pusan) but there isn't anything interesting since there are less people posting pictures.

As I watched the Japanese Forum, my interest in Japan grew even more. The forumers are very active in posting cool pictures of Tokyo and I even think that Japan is trully a "First-World" nation in all of Asia. The Japanese Forum gave me an impression that Japan is a wealthy nation with a relatively pro-American attitude of things.

From looking at South Korea. I'm very dissapointed and very frustrated with their "corrupt" politics as well as the youth population who are very liberal (probably close to even worshipping Kim Jong-il as a God) and the young people are very anti-American.

I used to think that it was necessary for all 37,500 US troops to station in South Korea to defend itself from a possible attack from Communist North Korea but with the current anti-American attitude in South Korea, I personally think that it is time to pull out of that politically confused country. Our troops doesn't need a slap in the face from those Pro-North Korean sympahizers. The Uri Party and Pres. Roh are destroying South Korea's long mutual relationship with the US. The US doesn't need any more "bullshit" from Pres. Roh and the Ruling Uri Party (Pro-North Korean fringe party in my opinion)

My opinion on South Korea has gotten worst recently and I personally think that South Korea needs to do a better job getting its PR image intact. With the radical left-wing ultranationalism/xenophobia happening in South Korea, I beginning to question the judgement and logic of young people in South Korea. Pretty soon once the older population who are very pro-US/anti-North are gone, South Korea will turn into a mess. I'm believe that both North Korea as well as South Korea will reunify under "one" Korea but I think that with the anti-Americanism as well as the young people embracing Kim Jong-il in South Korea, expect a unified "Communist" Korea coming in the near future.


i could not agree with you more woor20, these young people think they are so smart. (and they think they are so f@*%ing mature, and act like 5 times older than they are, but.... you don't see that innocence from them). fortunately my dad was born whilst the korea was still recovering from the war, and knows what to support and what to not, and im influenced, should i say, the right way, but these youngsters does not know the past and yet act like they are the smartest beings on earth. (insert george santayana's quote here :) )

There's one thing that I don't really understand about you. That is, why you think Korea always has to follow or obey the US?? I really don't understand. The two are different, separate countries. If it's beneficial for Korea to be with the US, they'll be. But if they think that in some cases anti-America is needed, they will be anti. It's about international relationship. There's no eternal friends or eternal enemies in international relationships. And you know that. Also, the current US is disliked by the most of the world for the reasons that you might know. For now, anti-American sentiment is nothing special. Don't you know this?

well, korea would not be the korea we know as of now without u.s.
the reason why I dislike the anti-american things is because there is no reason for it as of now.


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PERSUADE YOUR PARENTS AND FRIENDS TO VOTE FOR PARK GEUN HYE!

KOREA'S ONLY HOPE!

There's no eternal friends or eternal enemies in international relationships.

France - England

Eternal ennemies.

I don't hate the french and I am british

I have a french mate

prefer Koreans though :)

Maybe you're a Scot? Or from Corwall, Man, Jersey and other Channel Islands?

well, korea would not be the korea we know as of now without u.s.
the reason why I dislike the anti-american things is because there is no reason for it as of now.


------



PERSUADE YOUR PARENTS AND FRIENDS TO VOTE FOR PARK GEUN HYE!

KOREA'S ONLY HOPE!

Thank you, Ellatur. I'm glad that someone understands where I'm coming from in all of this. I have some questions regarding the anti-Americanism in South Korea, what made the young people in South Korea so anti-American, is it the media, the politicians, or even worse North Korea? Plus, why did Lee-Hoi Chang lost to Roh in Dec. 2002?

I'm curious Ellatur, what would Park Guen Hye do to restore South Korea's slugglish economy as well as stemming down the anti-American rhethoric in all of South Korea?

Also, my last question is what is the status of Christianity in South Korea? I heard that Seoul have one of the world's largest Protestant churches. I remembered from reading somewhere that Seoul have the world's largest Pentacostal church, the world's largest Presbyterian church, the world's largest Methodist church, and second largest Baptist church in the world. I also heard that the mayor in Seoul is a Christian and I also learned that Seoul have a Protestant majority in its population statistics according to the Seoul's government website.

i just like park geun hye :) very biased i know... but after all, she is the daughter of korea's best president and my personal favorite. but the main thing is, she stands up for what we, the pro-americans wants, and promotes the values we consider is important for korea's future

hmm, about 51% of korean were christian in couple of years ago

hmm, about 51% of korean were christian in couple of years ago

Uh.. that's what the church says. I believe the most recent government statistics showed that about 30% of all Koreans are either atheist or agnostic. About 40% were Christian (10% Catholic 30% Protestant+Presbyterian+etc.) and 30% were Buddist.

I'm curious, why did Dumatod decided to leave all of a sudden? Also what did Tanya do wrong to get herself banned? Did she say anything that got her in trouble?

Uh.. that's what the church says. I believe the most recent government statistics showed that about 30% of all Koreans are either atheist or agnostic. About 40% were Christian (10% Catholic 30% Protestant+Presbyterian+etc.) and 30% were Buddist.
But the government statistics is way outdated because normally they don't usually collect statistics on religious affialtions in the country. The government statistics is close to 10 years old. I could've sworn that the Protestant population is over 40% (18 million), Catholic 8% (4 million) in one statistic. But I don't know how big the Buddhist population is.

i just like park geun hye :) very biased i know... but after all, she is the daughter of korea's best president and my personal favorite. but the main thing is, she stands up for what we, the pro-americans wants, and promotes the values we consider is important for korea's future


Well don't lose hope. If someone who didn't go to college became president, I can't see why a woman can't ;)

Lee Myung-bak is certainly the smartest future presidential candidate around. He won't get elected, though. His greatest virtue: doing what needs to be done, regardless of immediate popular opinion. But that's his greatest failing.

What has Park Geun-hye actually done? Not much. I like her, but she has yet to earn a right to the Presidency.

In reality, both Woori and the GNP are going to fall apart in the next year. Interesting which factions will emerge...

--

Regarding anti-Americanism: The issue isn't "anti-American" or "pro-American." Recently, the United States has not done much correctly. It's more about stupid or smart. And electing Roh when there's so much at stake economically is just about economic suicide.

IMHO, Roh=stupid. Bush=stupid. I absolutely detest them both...

Well, it's 00H31, my last day of vacantion has begun. This means that tomorow (the day after today, so in about 31 hours with the night), I won't be around that much anymore. Just so you don't be surprised if you don't see me around. I'm reaching the 2nd ultimate goal of every sane human being with a bit of self respect, finding a job (first goal is doing studies, just done this one, 2nd is getting a job, 3rd is founding a family........).

good luck!