Gareth hits it on the spot

Dear Government

OK, I get it, the President isn't the only one in charge. The ANC believes in "collective responsibility" (So that nobody has to get blamed when things get screwed up), so I address this to everyone in government - the whole lot of you - good, bad and ugly (That's you, Blade).

We were all so pleased with your renewed promises to deliver services (we'll forgive the fact that in some places people are worse off than in 1994); to root out corruption (so far your record is worse than under Mbeki, Mandela or the Apartheid regime - what with family members becoming overnight millionaires); and build infrastructure (State tenders going disgustingly awry and pretty stadia standing empty notwithstanding) - and with the good job you did when FIFA were telling you what to do for a few months this year. Give yourselves half a pat on the back. Since President Sepp went off with his billions I'm afraid we have less to be proud of - Public Servants Strikes, more Presidential bastard children, increasing unemployment and a lack of leadership that allowed the Unions to make the elected government it's bitch. You should be more than a little worried - but you're not. Hence my letter. Here are some things that might have passed you by:

1. You have to stop corruption. Don't stop it because rich people moan about it and because it makes poor people feel that you are self-enriching parasites of state resources, but because it is a disease that will kill us all. It's simple - there is only so much money left to be plundered. When that money runs out, the plunderers will raise taxes, chase and drain all the remaining cash out of the country and be left with nothing but the rotting remains of what could have been the greatest success story of post-colonial Africa. It's called corruption because it decomposes the fabric of society. When someone is found guilty of corruption, don't go near them - it's catchy. Making yourself rich at the country's expense is what colonialists do.

2. Stop complaining about the media. You're only complaining about them because they show you up for how little you really do or care. If you were trying really hard, and you didn't drive the most expensive car in the land, or have a nephew who suddenly went from modesty to ostentatious opulence, we'd have only positive things to report. Think of Jay Naidoo, Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi and Zwelinzima Vavi - they come under a lot of fire, but it's never embarrassing - always about their ideas, their positions, and is perfectly acceptable criticism for people in power to put up with. When the media go after Blade Nzimande, Siphiwe Nyanda and the President, they say we need a new piece of legislation to "make the media responsible". That's because they're being humiliated by the facts we uncover about them daily, not because there is an agenda in some newsroom. If there had been a free press during the reigns of Henry VIII, Idi Amin or Hitler, their regimes might just have been kept a little less destructive, and certainly would have been less brazen and unchecked.

3. Education is a disaster. We're the least literate and numerate country in Africa. Zimbabwe produces better school results and turns out smarter kids than we do. Our youth aren't usemployed, they're unemployable. Outcomes-based-education, Teachers' Unions and an attitude of mediocrity that discourages excellence have reduced us to a laughing stock. Our learners can't spell, read, add or subtract. What are all these people going to do? Become President? There's only one job like that. We need clever people, not average or stupid ones. the failure of the Education Department happened under your watch. Someone who writes Matric now hadn't even started school under the Apartheid regime, so you cannot blame anyone but yourselves for this colossal cock-up. Fix it before three-quarters of our matrics end up begging on Oxford Road. Reward schools and teachers who deliver great pass rates and clever students into the system. Fire the teachers who march and neglect their classrooms.

4. Give up on BEE. It isn't working. Free shares for new black partnerships in old white companies has made everyone poorer except for Tokyo Sexwale. Giving people control of existing business won't make more jobs either. In fact, big companies aren't growing, they're reducing staff and costs. The key is entrepreneurship. People with initiative, creative ideas and small companies must be given tax breaks and assistance. Young black professionals must be encouraged to start their own businesses rather than join a big corporation's board as their token black shareholder or director. Government must also stop thinking that state employment is a way to decrease unemployment - it isn't - it's a tax burden. India and China are churning out new, brilliant, qualified people at a rate that makes us look like losers. South Africa has a proud history of innovation, pioneering and genius. This is the only way we can advance our society and economy beyond merely coping.

5. Stop squabbling over power. Offices are not there for you to occupy (or be deployed to) and aggrandize yourself. Offices in government are there to provide a service. If you think outrageous salaries, big German cars, first-class travel and state housing are the reasons to aspire to leadership, you're in the wrong business - you should be working for a dysfunctional, tumbledown parastatal (or Glenn Agliotti). We don't care who the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces is if we don't have running water, electricity, schools and clean streets. You work for us. Do your job, don't imagine you ARE your job.

6. Stop renaming things. Build new things to name. If I live in a street down which the sewage runs, I don't care if it's called Hans Strijdom or Malibongwe. Calling it something nice and new won't make it smell nice and new. Re-branding is something Cell C do with Trevor Noah, not something you can whitewash your lack of delivery with.

7. Don't think you'll be in power forever. People aren't as stupid as you think we are. We know you sit around laughing about how much you get away with. We'll take you down, either at the polls - or if it comes down to the wire - by revolution (Yes, Julius, the real kind, not the one you imagine happened in 2008). Careless, wasteful and wanton government is a thing of the past. The days of thin propaganda and idealized struggle are over. The people put you in power - they will take you out of it. Africa is tired of tin-pot dictators, one-party states and banana republics. We know who we are now, we care about our future - and so should you.

Gareth Cliff

Your views???

whos garath cliffe?

^^

http://www.garethcliff.com/garethbio.php

http://idols.mnet.co.za/Images/Judge_Gareth.jpg

The currenct ANC have let the nation down and they don't even have a vision. President Mandela's vision was reconciliation and building the rainbow nation, President Thabo Mbeki's one was African renaiscance and growing the economy but Zuma hasn't made anything clear fo what his leadership was about. Yes, he had defined 5 if not 6 points of focus which includes Education and Health but there's no clear policy on how he is gonna tacckle issues that those departments are currently facing.

So far, we have seen the banning of SCORPION, Shaik recieing questionable presidential pardon, Mo Shaik been appointed to itelligence even though he had forged his qualifications, Siphiwe Nyanda's companies getting tenders in his department and so many others that will take me the whole day to list. The ANC have forgotten about economic emancipation and improving the well being of our people. Tenderpreneurship has suppursed Enterpreneurship and more Zuma affiliated people are getting deals from the government.

So this is the letter that has everyone talking (except the ANC). I should say; bravo Mr Gareth BUT sadly your letter is addressed to people (ANC) who read political English and about to ban public information and news or anyone who may want to complain.

This is what I have been recently feeling just walking outside my house, I can't remember the last time I saw the street guys sweeping the sand off the road nor do I remember them watering the new trees they planted a week before the world cup. Our (Mbombela) case is terrible because our mayor runs his own tender businesses on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays and on Fridays he knocks off at 11 am at his Mbombela office and yes he still gets to keep his job as a mayor of 4 towns and a dozen townships, eish I forgot our Premier awarded his ex-wife a tender worth millions for a lousy fan park.

So I now see its ALL about cutting the biggest peace from our tax and run with it and leave crumbs for the poor people.

^^ so sad. If we can change football teams, religion and rutn against our family members, what makes it so difficult to turn against the ANC?

lack of education.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FtuG0ZOGjI4/SfBnJTkhzlI/AAAAAAAAA_k/qkp1F_Jbe-0/s400/zuma.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dwS7qfzBHmQ/S2VeYEOHrYI/AAAAAAAAIp4/CI3-hH0daYY/s400/zumadd.jpg

3. Education is a disaster. We're the least literate and numerate country in Africa. Zimbabwe produces better school results and turns out smarter kids than we do. Our youth aren't usemployed, they're unemployable. Outcomes-based-education, Teachers' Unions and an attitude of mediocrity that discourages excellence have reduced us to a laughing stock. Our learners can't spell, read, add or subtract. What are all these people going to do? Become President? There's only one job like that. We need clever people, not average or stupid ones. the failure of the Education Department happened under your watch. Someone who writes Matric now hadn't even started school under the Apartheid regime, so you cannot blame anyone but yourselves for this colossal cock-up. Fix it before three-quarters of our matrics end up begging on Oxford Road. Reward schools and teachers who deliver great pass rates and clever students into the system. Fire the teachers who march and neglect their classrooms.



well said Mr. Gareth, wish they were many people like you in Africa.

You know a lot has been said about this letter, its good yes but why people stand and applaud? I mean surely we all knew this all along? Or did we really have to wait for a radio DJ to put pen to paper to inform us whats wrong?

people are getting sick and tired of the incompetent government. Non-black people in particular had to be very careful to bash the government, or risk being branded as racists and unpatriotic. Let this be the start of a revolt going beyond colour lines.

^^ I do not believe it's really a colour thing. I think we need to realise that SA is becoming increasingly non-polarised along white-black-brown lines, it's becoming more polarised along haves and have-nots, educated and uneducated.

Many of the Black Middle-class are equally frustrated. Even further frustrated by COPE who was supposed to be the un-white and un-black alternative to the ANC or DA turning which to leadership infighting.

I do not think the ANC speaks the language of any of the middle class, educated populous anymore. They've degraded into a populist movement pandering to the empty promises only the uneducated and blindly loyal will believe. They ride on the coat-tails of the liberation only and their ideology and their policy is becoming increasingly unclear, incoherent and radical.

The ANC wins elections by keeping people scared of the alternatives and keeping people blindly loyal... the only way they can do this is keeping the electorate stupid. I believe they have no true agenda to educate South Africans, for a well-healed and well-educated South Africa will abandon them.

^^^ @Annman
I think you're wrong buddy, there's plenty of educated black South Africans that are supporters of the ANC. Go to any tertiary institution you will find an ANC branch, heck even Sandton has an ANC branch. I can tell you're being emotional by claiming that the ANC keeps ppl uneducated. The ANC govt spends far more on education than anything else, even grants. stop being disingenuous. Blame OBE and the unions but under the ANC school enrollment is over 90%.

@ Pule, ntate are you seriously suggesting that ppl will leave the ANC in droves? Mate, I understand that you're frustrated but abandoning the ANC will be an act of political suicide, just ask COPE.

@G&G
You're being emotional buddy, all over the world govt's are cutting down on their budgets, I will concede the Mpumalanga govt is more corrupt than most but declining services have more to do with smaller budgets than anything. You have heard of the Recession right?

@Briker
How's the Cape secession plan going?

^^^ @Annman
I think you're wrong buddy, there's plenty of educated black South Africans that are supporters of the ANC. Go to any tertiary institution you will find an ANC branch, heck even Sandton has an ANC branch. I can tell you're being emotional by claiming that the ANC keeps ppl uneducated. The ANC govt spends far more on education than anything else, even grants. stop being disingenuous. Blame OBE and the unions but under the ANC school enrollment is over 90%.

@ Pule, ntate are you seriously suggesting that ppl will leave the ANC in droves? Mate, I understand that you're frustrated but abandoning the ANC will be an act of political suicide, just ask COPE.

@G&G
You're being emotional buddy, all over the world govt's are cutting down on their budgets, I will concede the Mpumalanga govt is more corrupt than most but declining services have more to do with smaller budgets than anything. You have heard of the Recession right?

@Briker
How's the Cape secession plan going?

There is a difference between allocating funds and efficiently spending them.

The proportion spent on education remains as high as always but how does this matter when the nephew of the brother of the friend of the mayor' sister's cousins cadre is deployed to source textbooks and they do not arrive on time or at all at the school for the new school year?

Yes, people are educated and they do vote for the ANC, but getting more people properly educated will not bode well for ANC voting figures. Thats the cold harsh reality.

You know a lot has been said about this letter, its good yes but why people stand and applaud? I mean surely we all knew this all along? Or did we really have to wait for a radio DJ to put pen to paper to inform us whats wrong?

exactly. its called marketing and PR.

Not a fan of Gareth Cliff. He’s a libertarian – economically very conservative, socially a tiny bit liberal. I read his criticisms in light of that and it’s clear to me that a lot of it is partisan bullshit. The ANC deserves criticism, most definitely, but so does Gareth Cliff. I like his show in the mornings, but he constantly speaks with authority about things no one in SA cares about when driving to work – like why David Cameron should be prime minister of the UK or why John McCain should have been US president. Gareth Cliff criticises government because he disagrees with the idea of government as much as he disagrees with the actual current government.

Sorry guys for jumping in the argument without introducing myself. I'm a young man currently living in Jozi aka centre of the world, I'm an economist by profession but I am obsessed with development and economc growth in general.

Now that is out of the way
@Mo Rush
"Yes, people are educated and they do vote for the ANC, but getting more people properly educated will not bode well for ANC voting figures. Thats the cold harsh reality."

No buddy that's your reality nothing says it will happen...

I hope

^^ Completely disagree. All you have to do to see this trend and to analyze the voting patterns in the last election and see who voted COPE, who voted ANC and who voted DA. COPE won over tons of the Black middle-class, the DA captured more of the coloured (brown) and white vote. Mo and I are making statements grounded in real voting patterns, not simply opinionated hearsay. However, I do agree that to say ALL educated people do not vote ANC is far fetched and unfounded.

*ANC has a branch in Sandton, well the DA has a branch in Langa, doesn't say much.
*Spending on education says nothing, inefficiency and ineptitude of that spend says it all. Pass rates are higher in 90% of other African countries with tiny education spends in comparison.

If you're an economist... tell me... why is unemployment so high and economic growth sluggish for an emerging economy? If you can answer this truthfully, I may believe some of your statements as fact as not simply a personal opinion.

Sorry to be hard on you on your "first day," but I need to know exactly what type of mindset I'm dealing with. :)

And as an aside. Regardless of who anyone supports politically, not wanting "political competition" is undemocratic... period! Fear of being voted out is the only thing that brings accountability to politicians. Politicians work for US, not for themselves.
EDIT: A actually do not blame the ANC either, I blame the electorate. Any politician or political party in most of the world's countries' would also act selfish, arrogant and within a sole-mandate if they believed they govern by some form of "divine political decree" and have no chance of being ousted from power. Any government who feels "untouchable" will no longer be accountable and feel little respect for the electorate; Just as a CEO of a company will do as he/she wishes if the board and shareholders have no power.

^^^
If you're an economist... tell me... why is unemployment so high and economic growth sluggish for an emerging economy? If you can answer this truthfully, I may believe some of your statements as fact as not simply a personal opinion.

That's easy to answer. when the ANC came into power the govt were in such a mess as a result of an econmy that was in stagnation for so long and deficit-spending, not only that they were spooked by IMF and World Bank and told SA will go bankrupt if it does not slash govt spending. This orthodoxy was called Washington Consensus and it was all the rage in the 90's. Trevor Manual and Mbeki were its biggest proponents in SA and they went about liberalising the SA economy without a care for the human cost. That is the price we paid for our acceptance into the mainstream financial world.
Not only that it also meant that spending on education did not rise in real terms, it only started rising after the economic boom early in the decade.
Why do you think the Unionists and others hated Mbeki's economic reforms.
In fact many of the infrastructure problems/deficiencies we're facing today can be attributed that era, from not wanting to spend on power plants b'cos the private sector will come in, to deteriorating roads.

Sorry to be hard on you on your "first day," but I need to know exactly what type of mindset I'm dealing with.

No hard feelings as long as we respect each other's opinions there's no problem, its a free country after all (ironically as a result of decades of ANC's unflinching opposition to apartheid fascism)

And as an aside. Regardless of who anyone supports politically, not wanting "political competition" is undemocratic... period! Fear of being voted out is the only thing that brings accountability to politicians. Politicians work for US, not for themselves.
EDIT: A actually do not blame the ANC either, I blame the electorate. Any politician or political party in most of the world's countries' would also act selfish, arrogant and within a sole-mandate if they believed they govern by some form of "divine political decree" and have no chance of being ousted from power. Any government who feels "untouchable" will no longer be accountable and feel little respect for the electorate; Just as a CEO of a company will do as he/she wishes if the board and shareholders have no power

There is nothing wrong with democracy, the problem is some of the greatest proponents of democracy only believe in it when it only benefits them, thus they're trying to de-legitimise ANC's mandate. Democracy is a govt by the ppl for the ppl, we don't want a govt for the elite only. What about the much vaunted democracies of the West, from the UK, France to the US western style democracies are collapsing under their own hypocracies.

ANC does not rule by "royal decree" as you put it, it rules because the overwhelming majority of South Africans believe it is best-placed to deliver its promises.

There is nothing wrong with democracy, the problem is some of the greatest proponents of democracy only believe in it when it only benefits them, thus they're trying to de-legitimise ANC's mandate. Democracy is a govt by the ppl for the ppl, we don't want a govt for the elite only. What about the much vaunted democracies of the West, from the UK, France to the US western style democracies are collapsing under their own hypocracies.

ANC does not rule by "royal decree" as you put it, it rules because the overwhelming majority of South Africans believe it is best-placed to deliver its promises.

Yet it delivers on almost none of its promises and only enriches the party elite . billions for ANC family and friends whilst the poor live in squalor with streets overun by human excrement and health services that cant even fullfill their basic needs . :ohno:

exactly. its called marketing and PR.

of course, Idols is ending soon. He doesnt have his dof talk show anymore so his looking for something else now.

@ Pule, ntate are you seriously suggesting that ppl will leave the ANC in droves? Mate, I understand that you're frustrated but abandoning the ANC will be an act of political suicide, just ask COPE.



Dumela morena. I was born and bred in the Vaal and to move to jozi was just a matter of economic "sense". I grew from the township of Sebokeng where politics became the other of the day and that promted the old government to deploy thousands of solders to search our houses in 1983. My late brother was a politician who embraced the ANC values and Black conciousness. Look at the Vaal and tell me if you see any progress except for Meyerton which is run by the DA. No location in the Vaal have got RDP house that people in Meyerton have got including services they receive from their municipality. We need not to be too political about this issues and look at the reality. 3 schools are close in my vicinity as even poor parents send their kids to maltiracial schools. Sports facilities are dysfunctional in every respect. I'm still to be convinced why I should vote for the ANC as I didn't even vote for Zuma *thank God*.

The ANC is underestimating the black masses and they have clearly indicated this by saying the ANC will rule up until Jesus comes. Why the Information bill and Media Tribunal. The ANC is a party run by hooligans who chose to ignore black conciousness and economic emancipation. Comradeship have let to systems like eNatis being deployed without proper testing, Government card ID system is in tartus as they gave a tender to their friend who owns Gijima AST.

The only way the ANC is leading us is to the doors of IMF and World Bank to bag for money like other African countries.

I'm still askign myself why did the Apartheid government murder Steve Biko and isolate Mangaliso Sobukwe while the Mandelas were living in "paradise". The selling out by the ANC didn't just start now. Like other African leaders, the black nation is being sold at the cost of the few who are enriching themselves and buying their wives private jets for their birthdays while their counter parts in Europe and Far East Asia are investing in their people.

ANC does not rule by "royal decree" as you put it, it rules because the overwhelming majority of South Africans believe it is best-placed to deliver its promises.

The country was on fire last year as the masses complained about services delivery, this year the economy was almost brought to stan still because of the strikes and you believe that ANC delivers on it's mandate, come on bro. The ANC instill fear in people mostly the uneducated, fear that if they vote for parties like DA they will be voting for another apartheid system. Why should I vote for people who cannot account for R44bn that was meant for education?

Yet it delivers on almost none of its promises and only enriches the party elite . billions for ANC family and friends whilst the poor live in squalor with streets overun by human excrement and health services that cant even fullfill their basic needs .

Really? You must have missed the millions of RDP homes built for the poor
The expansion of the grant payment to alleviate the worst poverty
The massive expansion in basic education for the poor (albeit the quality is somewhat lacking)
The construction of necessary infrastructure to boost the economy's productive capacity (although it was preceeded by mindless austerity to pls the mkts)
You claim the poor live in squalor as if its the ANC's fault, that is the fault of one of your Uni's alumni (hint his surname starts with a V)
Heck the ANC even went out on a limb to protect gay rights (that's one achievement I'm sure even you appreciate) and enshrined gay rights in law when the DA itself (the great liberal hope) dilly-dallied to pander to right-wing elements within its ranks...

The country was on fire last year as the masses complained about services delivery, this year the economy was almost brought to stan still because of the strikes and you believe that ANC delivers on it's mandate, come on bro. The ANC instill fear in people mostly the uneducated, fear that if they vote for parties like DA they will be voting for another apartheid system. Why should I vote for people who cannot account for R44bn that was meant for education?


Dumela le wena morena, I understand your frustration but I disagree sharply with your assertion that ANC instills fear in the poor and uneducated masses. One could argue that the DA also puts the fear of God into minorities by the rehashing of offensive steryotypes of ANC incompetence, total collapse ala Zim (so-called Zim 2.0 scenario), these tactics are well-honed, they're called Swaart gevaar tactics.
I agree that local govt is struggling as a result of skilled ppl, that is not reason to throw out the baby with the bath water.

You also say SA is going the way of the IMF, chief those are your emotions speaking, SA is one of the most solvent states in the world right now. Tommorrow is the mini-budget, watch what the finance minister is going to announce re: fiscal deficit.

Lastly I would like to also say I did not vote for the ANC in the previous election, I was also disgusted by what I saw as the scenario of the barbarians by the gate as our philosopher king (mbeki) was booted out and replaced by the rabble, my vote was wasted on Cope however. I will admit Zuma is not presidential material, he's too compromised but his tenure will not be catastrophic.
I repeat do not throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Guys, yes we're all very critical of the ANC but please don't expect anybody here to take you seriously by saying the ANC have done "nothing". Yes, many schools aren't great and education is not where it should be but do you realize that in many cases there were NO schools and NO books and NO classrooms. Which part of Bantu education is difficult to understand?

There are 10,000 things we can mention which the ANC should do better, but its the same people who fail to acknowledge what the ANC have done and still do and persist in predicting a "Zimbabwe fate" every year.

Even when things are getting better, the good work of the ANC is NOT acknowledged.

The good work of Trevor Manuel in terms of the economy of the last 15 years...who was that? The DA? Is it perfect? No.

Sexwale is doing a better job, heck even the local government affairs ministers seems to be doing better.

Each situation requires you to apply your mind rather than just blurt out "the ANC sucks" "The ANC do nothing" "The ANC are a failure".

The same applies to the DA. Acknowledge BOTH the good and bad work.

The country was on fire last year as the masses complained about services delivery, this year the economy was almost brought to stan still because of the strikes and you believe that ANC delivers on it's mandate, come on bro. The ANC instill fear in people mostly the uneducated, fear that if they vote for parties like DA they will be voting for another apartheid system. Why should I vote for people who cannot account for R44bn that was meant for education

Boss the whole world is up in arms, its called the recession. The anc did not cause the recession, it eminated from the same West we're always told by our DA supporters we should emulate. look at Greece, look at France, etc. Times are tough everywhere and more especially in less well-off countries such as SA

the ANC did not steal R44 billion, that would be the largest fraud of the century where is the evidence? I'm sure the DA would be screaming its head-off if this great crime was perpetrated...

Guys, yes we're all very critical of the ANC but please don't expect anybody here to take you seriously by saying the ANC have done "nothing". Yes, many schools aren't great and education is not where it should be but do you realize that in many cases there were NO schools and NO books and NO classrooms. Which part of Bantu education is difficult to understand?

There are 10,000 things we can mention which the ANC should do better, but its the same people who fail to acknowledge what the ANC have done and still do and persist in predicting a "Zimbabwe fate" every year.

Even when things are getting better, the good work of the ANC is NOT acknowledged.

The good work of Trevor Manuel in terms of the economy of the last 15 years...who was that? The DA? Is it perfect? No.

Sexwale is doing a better job, heck even the local government affairs ministers seems to be doing better.

Each situation requires you to apply your mind rather than just blurt out "the ANC sucks" "The ANC do nothing" "The ANC are a failure".

The same applies to the DA. Acknowledge BOTH the good and bad work.

Thank you bro, that is what we need: objectivity. Remember we are still South Africans and we all want our country to be the best it can be, meaning the first developed state in Africa!! Heck I'm willing to acknowledge that the CPT undre the DA is well-run and clean (if you stay in the burbs that is), I saw cleaning ladies on the streets in the mornings and late afternoon, Joburg could definitely learn from that. However to try and de-legitimise the ANC as if it is a criminal organisation that is hell-bent on destroying SA is simply unfounded...

^^ I would agree with the more moderate point-of-view... but things like the Media Tribunal, the Protection of information Act, the demise of the Scorpions and subsequent Hawks failure are things that raise my eyebrows.

I think the ANC has got the macro-economic fundamentals right. However, the reason SA cannot break beyond the GDP growth figure of 4% and cannot create jobs en masse is due to pandering to a militant workforce (who are also their closest allies, yet of recent, their biggest source of headache). Companies do not want to hire, period. If there is economic growth; mechanisation and increased efficiency is option number one, employing more people, option two. That is a massive problem in a country with a large unskilled workforce.

We need labour intensive industry, not mechanisation-intensive ones. They claim the panacea to all our woes is a weak Rand... it's not! All emerging economies and Australia are grappling with strengthening currencies, yet many are posting growth rates of 5-9%. A weak Rand is a quick-fix to counteract an unproductive workforce and low-productivity to keep SA exports competitive. We also simply do not have the foreign exchange reserves to fight a currency war with the likes of Brazil, China or India.

Not saying either that we should go back to "No Labour Laws or ethics of employment," but things have gone too far.

Also, this whole idea that any political party is "for the people" or is "benign when given guaranteed power" is naive and idealist. Humans are intrinsically selfish and greedy. 99% of humanity, given too big and permanent a mandate will abuse it. You will never convince me otherwise. Any political party, DA included, given too much power, will abuse it. It is the nature of politics. Democracy cannot thrive in a place where there's no political competition. The Western Cape stands testament to that fact:

The DA governs well because if they do not perform, they're out! The ANC seems to preform better in the Western Cape (when in control) than any other province, because they know the electorate could take them out next election.

It even happens in business, a monopoly causes inflated prices and declining service levels. Highly competitive sectors are the most efficient ones. Again: Human greed! Happens everywhere, from the schoolyard, to the business world, to politics.

No juggernaut is good in the long-term!!!

I think the ANC has got the macro-economic fundamentals right. However, the reason SA cannot break beyond the GDP growth figure of 4% and cannot create jobs en masse is due to pandering to a militant workforce (who are also their closest allies, yet of recent, their biggest source of headache). Companies do not want to hire, period. If there is economic growth; mechanisation and increased efficiency is option number one, employing more people, option two. That is a massive problem in a country with a large unskilled workforce.


The economy grew by more than 5% between 2004-2007, so your point is moot. Secondly the ANC does not pander to COSATU in fact it has continually rebuffed COSATU to pander to the markets. Think GEAR, think corporatisation and privatisation of public service (pre-paid eletricity and water), etc.

A weak Rand is a quick-fix to counteract an unproductive workforce and low-productivity to keep SA exports competitive. We also simply do not have the foreign exchange reserves to fight a currency war with the likes of Brazil, China or India.


SA's labour force is not unproductive, TFP (total factor productivity) has consistently risen since 1994, it only declined last year as a result of the recession, the surplus has unfortunately not been reinvested but has been squandered by company bosses and dividends, in fact SA companies are some of the most profitable in the world, hence the JSE is one of vest-performing exchanges since 2000.
How is our labour unproductive when they are able to build infrastructure at such a rapid pace as evidenced during the world cup preparations.

I fail to see why everyone is jumping because Gareth Cliff wrote a letter to government. Thousands write into government, and for those who don’t, they participate in the general elections. Nothing Cliff writes about is new, and government knows this.

As Mo previously said, this is a pure PR stunt, and we could expect the same from Trevor Noah.

Fully agree with what Mo has also said so far. People love to say that there is nothing has changed...ah hello, look around you, much has changed.

Nah dude TN is way to cool to write to government , the governmaent writes to Trevor Noah :D

Hi Nostra, glad to see a fellow economist on here. Referring to your earlier post

Now, you said:
That's easy to answer. when the ANC came into power the govt were in such a mess as a result of an econmy that was in stagnation for so long and deficit-spending, not only that they were spooked by IMF and World Bank and told SA will go bankrupt if it does not slash govt spending. This orthodoxy was called Washington Consensus and it was all the rage in the 90's. Trevor Manual and Mbeki were its biggest proponents in SA and they went about liberalising the SA economy without a care for the human cost.

You are correct in some aspects of course, we had stagflation due to many factors, economically it was principly due to the sanctions against SA. Also the Washington consensus on which we based GEAR to a large extent failed to deliver the results it promised in many countries.
But your argument is still very socialist and right sided. It's extremely easy to argue that the only reason why SA's economy didnt go the same way that did Argentina, which is what the whole world expected, was because of those policies you are bashing. The promises made by the ANC in it's HOP plan would have seald the SA fate to go down the same path. Instead Trevor Manual and Mbeki chose what the entire world propsed as the best possible economic policy - GEAR. That decision in itself protected us from the massive foreign capital flight that would probably have ruined our chances of economic growth for a long time. We chose to protect our brilliant financial institutions and currency, brining me to my next point:


That is the price we paid for our acceptance into the mainstream financial world.


SA had and has one of the most advanced financial sectors in the world. Being a largly services based economy (at 80%), if we did what you and some in the then ANC proposed we should have done, would have led us on an early path to mimic Zimbabwe.


Not only that it also meant that spending on education did not rise in real terms, it only started rising after the economic boom early in the decade.


Please substantiate this. The budget for education started rising immediatly after 1994, and currently by proportian we spend as much on education as most first world countries (even though our education is probably on one of the lowest levels in the world).
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp
Our education sector fell apart due to incompitance from governemtn and useless decisions (i.e. putting in a cirriculam that already failed internationaly).


Why do you think the Unionists and others hated Mbeki's economic reforms.


No offence, but largely i think it's because they are idiots.


In fact many of the infrastructure problems/deficiencies we're facing today can be attributed that era, from not wanting to spend on power plants b'cos the private sector will come in, to deteriorating roads.


Again this is only partly true. We HAD to curtain our fiscal spending. Our fiscal deficit was over 9% of GDP, which would Not have been sustainable. The reforms reduced this to below 3%. We built houses, not power stations during that time.

Some of my facts might be a bit rusty, it's been a while since i did south african economic history, so feel free to argue any points :)

^^ I would agree with the more moderate point-of-view... but things like the Media Tribunal, the Protection of information Act, the demise of the Scorpions and subsequent Hawks failure are things that raise my eyebrows.


add the appointment of Menzi Simelane, the insistence on singing "kill the boer" and supporting Malema, the failure to act on Zimbabwe...the list goes on.

and rampant corruption is not just a vague claim by DA supporters. Senior ANC members have acknowledged the problem.

^^ Look, without arguing tiny economic fundamentals, tiny semantics or tiny opinion differences. The above encapsulates my feeling: "I do not trust them."

I trusted the ANC under Mandela, I trusted the ANC that was about racial harmony, about freedom in all forms (not just forms that suits them) and about reconciliation and growth. Mbeki was no saint and bloody aloof, but the man was at least pragmatic, internationally-minded and somewhat intelligent and kept the ANC ranks in check ('til Polokwane of course). The ANC of today has become corrupted by their own power and through their own fear of loosing this power, they seem to be taking steps to subvert differing opinions and galvanize populist views to keep garnering votes through radical neo-Afro-Nazi rhetoric and failed-leftist-policy rather than true policy that works for these very people they attempt to work up into a revolutionary frenzy.

The ANC has done well till a point, Pre-leadership-battle-nonsense-ANC saved SA from the darkest depths. Post-leadership-battle-nonsense-ANC will take us into doldrums again if left to believe they are entitled to "rule til Jesus comes."

I'm the last person to praise the ANC but its unfortunate that many still do not realize the horrific state of the country when the ANC took over, and the huge mess that was left behind, in most areas having to start from scratch whether its admin or foreign relations or just getting the basics in place in a country designed for 1/5th of the population, now having to deliver for the other 4/5ths too.

Its not perfect, far from it,and yes by most standards it was and is quite "bad", in terms of what more could have been done, but its too late for that.

Guys, nobody in this forum disgaree that the ANC hasn't failed in all aspects of delivery albeit the likes of housing the poor being is somehow laughable considering the kind of houses that have been built in previous years. Some of the current ANC success story is Operation Hlasela championed by Premier Magashule in Free State which has delivered quality house, sanitation, education, job creation and so forth.

We importing IT skills from India, even though we got gazillions of IT grduates wondering the streets which some endup being cyber crime syndicates, but one of the milestone of Asgi-SA was to curb shortage of skills...yes, the private sector is equally to blame but the ANC through it's policies should insure that the private sector comes to the party.

The ANC need to learn to run the country like a company and consider ala Mbeki's business unusual. The macro-economic policies as previously noted by other forumers are some of the best from the ANC but as long as the policies doesn't yield posetive results that will not just be visible to mostly economically informed individuals, I will never applaud them. Comrades are being redeployed instead of being suspended or being fired from their positions and i guess that's what gonna happen with Siphiwe Nyanda who seem to forget that tapping into public coffers for own fancial gain is eqaully a crime of like someone not paying their TV license. If the ANC continues to not hold people accountable and continue to re-tender projects without making sure that offenders repay for the job not-well-done, then we accellerating our speed to NYC to ask World Bank and IMF to rescue us.

Obviously no one is saying they are a full blown mafia. And of course they were democratically elected, but that doesn't mean they can do what they want and be sheltered from criticism (as same ANC supporters seem to think). The crisis of legitimacy is very real, as highlighted by Pierre De Vos on his blog:

Perhaps the move against the free media is based on a realistic acknowledgement on the part of the ANC that it is facing a crisis of legitimacy. It seems incapable of addressing this crisis, so some of its leaders might believe that the only way to deal with the problem is to stop the reporting on events that has precipitated this crisis.

I offer a few quotes below to illustrate this point. President Jacob Zuma at a March 2008 National Executive Committee (NEC) Meeting:

"When elected leaders at the highest level openly engage in factionalist activity, where is the movement that aims to unite the people of South Africa for the complete liberation of the country from all forms of discrimination and national oppression? When money changes hands in the battle for personal power and aggrandizement, where is the movement that is built around membership that joins without motives of material advantage and personal gain? When the members of the NEC themselves engage in factionalist activity, media leaks and rumour-mongering, how can we ex pect the membership of our movement to carry out their duties toobserve di scipline, behave honestly and carry out loyally the decisions of the majority and the decision of higher bodies?"


From the admirably frank document on “Leadership Renewal, discipline and organizational culture” prepared for the ANC National General Council later this year, which highlights the following tenancies in the ANC:

"12.1 Leadership in the ANC is seen as stepping-stones to positions of power and material reward in government and business (Organisational report to the 1997 Mafikeng Confe rence).

12.2 The emergence of social distance between ANC cadres in positions of power from the motive forces which the ANC represent, with the potential to render elements in the movement “progressively lethargic to the conditions of the poor.” (Strategy and Tactics, 1997)

12.3 Disturbing trends of “careerism, corruption and opportunism,” alien to a revolutionary movement, taking roots at various levels, eating at our soul and with potential to denude our society of an agent of real change. (Midterm Review, NGC, 2000)

12.4 Divisive leadership battles over access to resources and patronage becoming the norm and allegations about corruption and business interests of leadership and deployed cadres abounding (Organisational report to the Stellenbosch Conference, 2002).

49. Failure to build a New Person (continued the 2000 NGC document), among revolutionaries themselves and, in a more diffuse manner in broader society, will result in a critical mass of the vanguard movement being swallowed in the vortex of the arrogance of power and attendant social distance and corruption, and, ultimately, themselves being transformed by the very system they seek to change. An important challenge, among others, is thus to ensure a systematic intervention by the ideological centres and institutions of society, as well as mothers and fathers and the family as a whole in shaping social values and a new morality.

53. Strategy and Tactics (2007: par. 138) recognizes the challenges and ‘sins’ of incumbency (patronage, bureaucratic indifference, arrogance of power, corruption) and suggests approaches to the management of relations within the organization. Our ability to manage this minefield, it contends, will determine “our future survival as a principled leader of the process of fundamental change, an organization respected and cherished by the mass of people for what it represents and how it conducts itself in actual practice.”"

From the various ANC discussion documents it is clear that the problem of legitimacy facing the ANC has long been acknowledged by the movement. As far back as the Stellenbosch conference in 2002 these “tendencies” were identified. But now, eight years later, the problem has become more acute and the movement has been unable to address them in any meaningful way. It is one thing to admit the problem. It is a completely different matter to deal with it effectively.

A culture of forgiveness (or some would call it impunity) starting at the very top of the leadership, makes it very difficult to address the problems and to take decisive action against ANC leaders in government.

Tony Yengeni, due to his admirable role in the struggle, is carried shoulder high to prison. President Jacob Zuma, due to his admirable stance against the dictatorial tendencies of the former President, is elected as leader of the movement despite the fact that he took money from a crook, did favors for that crook and then submitted a fake loan agreement to Parliament to try and justify this. Ebrahim Rasool is accused of handing out brown envelopes to journalists and, because of his good work in the Western Cape, is appointed as ambassador to Washington. MP’s abuse the travel scheme of Parliament, is convicted and remain in their positions.

The list is endless.

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/why-now/

^^ Yeah right, pass the buck, that's what the ANC is good at. And ironically, its the same ANC that advocates apartheid facists ideas (racial polarization, nationalization & media control). As if plundering state assets (our assets) and squandering the state coffers (our money) ain't enough, it wants to hijack companies.

Nationalisation is not evil. It’s certainly not in the same category as racial polarisation and media control.

evil - no. Idiotic - YES! Mines face stiff competition. State is notoriously poor at running efficient businesses and the mines already have fairly narrow profit margins. Far from creating jobs or as Mr. Malema says, using the mine profits to subsidize universities, i'll guarantee that the mines start to post losses in the same way that does Eskom, SAA or SABC! Far from using the profit from the mines, we (tax payers) will have to start paying for them! Plus we'll probably lose a few hundred thousand jobs in the process. But never fear, i hear the ANC is promising to create 5 million jobs in the next 10 years.... ha. ha. ha.

^^ 99% of Malema says, I will automatically disagree with. Him saying anything noteworthy, intelligent or workable is as rare as asteroid extinction events. How someone with so little education being taken seriously is dangerous and he should not have the platform he does. He's nothing but a "kak stirrer" to boost his ego and rampant megalomania.

In South Africa nationalisation maybe stupid because, as you rightly say, our parastatals are in a mess, but the concept of nationalisation is something people should stop dismissing so readily. I firmly believe that certain industries, like public transport and healthcare, should be nationalised. Perhaps not in South Africa as it is today.

^^ I agree with you completely. It's referred to as public goods and private goods. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good)
The post office, street lights and waterworks etc are great examples of public goods, and the only way they will be able to be handled effectively in any situation, is publicly. SAA and mines (and debatably eskom as well) are Not public goods, and it's not in any way in the best interest to have them controlled by the state. Like in communist Cuba where even hairdressers are state-controlled. Doesn't work.

^^ Like in communist Cuba where even hairdressers are state-controlled. Doesn't work.

Yes, CNN or BBC recently had a fascinating looking at communism in Cuba...don't forget the ice-cream sellers!

SA leads world in openness on budget details
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2010-10-27 12:00:00 Edition 1

SOUTH Africa has been ranked No 1 in the world for being transparent with its national budget, ahead of major developed countries like Norway, Sweden and the US. [ Full Story... ]

Excuse the late reply, trust you're all alright then?

@Econ77
SA had and has one of the most advanced financial sectors in the world. Being a largly services based economy (at 80%), if we did what you and some in the then ANC proposed we should have done, would have led us on an early path to mimic Zimbabwe.

Howzit mate, I've noted your point, however I could also argue that this financial system is a symptom of our economic dislocation. The same reason we have more MALLS than factories. The bubble has subsequently burst (albeit to a limited extent in SA).
However I'm not knocking being a financial centre (Damn I rep. Sandton all day), I think it should be accompanied by much faster in the real economy.

Our education sector fell apart due to incompitance from governemtn and useless decisions (i.e. putting in a cirriculam that already failed internationaly).

I will concede this point...

@Pule
I hear you bro.

I do maintain that the critical archilles heel of the economy is not corruption (that is but a symptom of going the neoliberal route), rather it is due to structural inefficiencies caused by policies chosen by us.
I am glad govt has noted these and it will be incorporating these into the medium term budget...

Excuse the late reply, trust you're all alright then?

@Econ77


Howzit mate, I've noted your point, however I could also argue that this financial system is a symptom of our economic dislocation. The same reason we have more MALLS than factories. The bubble has subsequently burst (albeit to a limited extent in SA).
However I'm not knocking being a financial centre (Damn I rep. Sandton all day), I think it should be accompanied by much faster in the real economy.



I will concede this point...

@Pule
I hear you bro.

I do maintain that the critical archilles heel of the economy is not corruption (that is but a symptom of going the neoliberal route), rather it is due to structural inefficiencies caused by policies chosen by us.
I am glad govt has noted these and it will be incorporating these into the medium term budget...


We have more Malls than factories?!?!?! Care to provide your evidence for this rather absurd assertion?

I think your whole neoliberal argument may have some merit in a very limited way, but the achilles heel of our economy is the corruption and tenderpreneurship and nepotism, and it is becoming more and more of a problem every day.

@ToxicBunny
No Nostra's right about the malls as well. The reason why though is probably because of our extremely non-flexible labour force. It's difficult to be able to compete globally if you have to pay minimum wage, pension, medical aid etc. Don't get me wrong, i support much of of current wage system, but in some cases though i believe it's completely out of hand. There does need to be some control (we have hundreds of years of evidence that laissez faire doesnt provide all that it should), but with our unions it's gotten completely out of hand, and it's killing our industries (take our textile industry as an example)

Yip. Some local companies I know of find it cheaper e.g. to import rain coats from China, including visits to China to check up on production, than to produce them locally.

@Toxic Bunny
I unfortunately agree with you on the corruption,tenderpreneurship and nepotism destroying our economy. I truelly believe that SA could have seen growth that would have surpassed Angola and China if we got our policies implemented effectively over all levels. That's where I believe the ANC failed, not in the big picture (as i've said, their policies was actually very good), but on the local municipality level.

Ok se voet...

We DON'T have more malls than factories ffs... I live in Durban, and I know of at least 30 or 40 factories in a relatively small area.. and that excludes the really large industrial areas in and around Durban itself.

I'm not saying there aren't companies that don't import everything from China, because there are, and there is a bloody good reason for it... but to just make a clearly false statement like "there are more malls than factories" achieves absolutely nothing other than making ppl ignore the rest of your argument.

^^ From stats SA:

Total turnover of all retail industries (estimate): R156 426 million
Period: August 2010

Total value of sales of manufactured products (estimate):R102 286 million
Period: August 2010

Additionally you'll see retail grow massively over holidays, i.e. for the whole of 2009 the estimate is R5 740 178million. I don't have an annual estimate for manufacturing unfortunately.

http://www.statssa.gov.za/keyindicators/keyindicators.asp

briker is the next future leader of south africa...

Ok.. having a retail sector being larger than the manufacturing sector is one thing but it in NO means we have more malls than factories...

Interesting to see South Africa's partners at the top of the international OBI index (budget transparency) - Norway, Sweden, UK, US, NZ.
We are the only developing nation, and we were number 1.

Obviously we are doing some things right...

Without a doubt we're doing something right.... and its a positive sign..

We see to do the big things with some deceny in my opinion, but its the small day-to-day stuff thats a right royal cock up...

No Nostra's right about the malls as well. The reason why though is probably because of our extremely non-flexible labour force. It's difficult to be able to compete globally if you have to pay minimum wage, pension, medical aid etc. Don't get me wrong, i support much of of current wage system, but in some cases though i believe it's completely out of hand. There does need to be some control (we have hundreds of years of evidence that laissez faire doesnt provide all that it should), but with our unions it's gotten completely out of hand, and it's killing our industries (take our textile industry as an example)
good diagnosis, wrong prognosis. The problem as far as I'm concerned is not our labour costs, in fact SA labour earns very little compared to the cost of living in SA, I do not have the stats but the proportion of nation income income (GDP) that goes towards wages has been declining steadily since 1994. This means that fruits of the productivity gains over the past decade and a half has increasingly been going to bosses (both in public and pvt sectors) in the form of executive remuneration and dividends. Hence the massive social instability. why shoudl workers tighten their belts but bosses are not expected to. Another measure of the growing inequality can be seen in the fact that CEO earn a far higher multiple of the wage of the lowest paid in SA than they did in the past.

And as you claim if we have an inflexible labour system how come it was able to offload a MILLION jobs in the space of a year if hiring and firing is so hard according to our so-called hard pressed businessppl?

Interesting to see South Africa's partners at the top of the international OBI index (budget transparency) - Norway, Sweden, UK, US, NZ.
We are the only developing nation, and we were number 1.

Obviously we are doing some things right...

There are a lot of things that are right with our economy but govt has in the past been scared to take difficult decisions so as to not piss-off the markets. I am impressed though with our new economic thinking as expresssed in the mid-term budget...

briker is the next future leader of south africa...

Is you crazy? (to use American hood parlance), Briker probably believes taxation is a form of stealing and that the poor do not deserve any help from the govt! lol

We DON'T have more malls than factories ffs... I live in Durban, and I know of at least 30 or 40 factories in a relatively small area.. and that excludes the really large industrial areas in and around Durban itself.


Everything I'm mentioning here is backed up by real stats not just anecdotal evidence, just because DBN is a manufacturing hub does not mean the whole country has a similar economic structure. anyways no reason to get wound up, I was just saying...

Ok, please then provide your stats to show that we have more Malls than Factories in this country.

You saying its backed up by real stats means nothing unless you can provide said facts.

Ok, please then provide your stats to show that we have more Malls than Factories in this country.

You saying its backed up by real stats means nothing unless you can provide said facts.

The stats were alsready provided by Econ77, our retail sector is larger than our manufacturing sector, it was a figure of speech. Put another way, we spend more than we produce hence our trade deficits. This is a sign of an unsustainable economy, a back to front economy if you will...

@Nostra, regarding your earlier post
i fear that the reason we where able to shrink our labour force in the past year, was due to industries closing down and retail shrinking (though i would like to see evidence to the contrary).
There is not going to be a quick fix for our economy. What we need, is people having enough money to send their kids to good schools (thus they need jobs). Then those kids send their kids to universities. Those kids will then instill the desire to work, as currently seen in the four Asian Tigers. I was in the US lately, and was also amazed at their drive to work. The project managers there booked their meetings on Saturday mornings as a rule, since that's the only time people aren't too busy to attend them.

What we have is a largely uneducated work force, and unions that have an amazing amount of power. Heck the ruling party is literally allied with the largest trade union! Yes, true our company executive's earn loads, but remember that companies doesn't compete locally for ceo's, but globally. The increase we are seeing is very much a global phenomenon, with heated debate from all sides.
(See the following for the situation in the US as of 2003. http://elsmar.com/pdf_files/Growth%20of%20Executive%20Pay.pdf)

I hate having to speak out of personal experience, but as an example 2 of my company's previous CEO's are now working in the EU. Personally i believe that if a good ceo manages to increase profits, they can pay him whatever they need to (as long as it's less than the increase in profits). The end justifies the means :)

Plus, what is actually the alternative? Make the labour force even more rigid? By law setting a pay ceiling? No, the market needs to run it's course regarding executive remuneration. We need to stimulate ALL industries, increase local competition, increase global competitiveness and this will not happen with the labour market as it is now (cetris paribus of course :).

Plus, what is actually the alternative? Make the labour force even more rigid? By law setting a pay ceiling? No, the market needs to run it's course regarding executive remuneration. We need to stimulate ALL industries, increase local competition, increase global competitiveness and this will not happen with the labour market as it is now (cetris paribus of course .

sorry chaps for the thread degenerating in to an economic discussion, but as they same "it's the economy stupid". The changes have to be all encompassing, firstly we need to rid our thinking that the market is pre-eminent in our capitalist economy. We believe in capitalism, we just don't believe in the free-market fundamentalism that purports to be the highest form of capitalism.
secondly we have to recognise that everyone will have to take a hit, workers, executives and the middle class and govt.

It's the same argument that Tit (not a typo) mboweni advocated, he was railing against workers seeking higher-than-inflation pay rises, while he got more than 20% rise ostensibly to prevent him from going to the pvt sector. I mean really!

I suggest the following if over the next decade SA will grow at 7% or more, this will mean our economy will double, eleiminate worst types of poverty and unemployment.

Workers

1. workers need to limit their pay rises to inflation and productivity (however govt should take steps to bring down cost of living for workers, e.g. invest in a good transit system - this is already happening with BRT)
2. Incentives should be given for productivity

Bosses

1. bosses need to stop benchmarking salaries against Europe and N.America, SA is a developing country
2. bosses can't always take the credit for good comapny performance. If the whole economy is doing well, most companies will benefit, "a rising tide lifts all boats"
3. there's already extensive literature about ethical excutive remuneration, e.g. bosses can only access a fraction of their bonus, companies can clawback some of the bonuses if the company subsequently makes losses


Govt

1. good, clean and efficient govt is a prerequisite as it inspires confidence from the top
2. stop patronage and cadre deployment (there are indications this is already happening)
3. Good education, health and infrastructure is fundamental - Govt needs to go all out on this...

Middle-Classes

1. Have to accept that some taxes will be ineviteble if our infrastructure backlogs will be tackled, especially
2. recognise that things like tolls, carbon tax are inevitable if the economy is to be more efficient
3. retain a positive outlook / stop comparing SA to Australia and such, SA was never in the league of Aus, if it looked like that it was an illusion

Everyone needs to sacrifice not only trade-unionists...

Will continue, need to get back to some work...

This time i apologize in advance for my long winded (as usual) answer
I agree with you on the steps you had in middle classes, and government (those are just good old common sense).

But i disagree on what you proposed under workers and bosses. I believe in market equilibrium.
People are (for arguments sake) rational. Workers will never limit their salaries to inflation. Same applies to bosses. If they can't get their salaries here, they will take their skills, and their money, and invest it in a more stable economies elsewhere.

All the points you raised can be achieved by letting the market reach it's natural equilibrium point. I do not even want to consider the affects of forcing any of it through legislation would be (i'm thinking massive foreign capital outflows leading to huge inflation for a start).We must protect and build on what we have, not break it down! No one needs to suffer! (well, except trade-unionists :) )

To raise our economy by 7%, stimulate the market. Reduce the rigidity of our labour market (if a company can't fire under preforming workers, why on earth would anyone want to perform?) and get those poorest of the poor people jobs! they won't earn loads, but currently they earn nothing! Worse still, those who do earn money, go on strike, this in a country with about a third of the labour force unemployed!

And market fundamentalists are misguided in their expectations of free markets. But don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

And as you claim if we have an inflexible labour system how come it was able to offload a MILLION jobs in the space of a year if hiring and firing is so hard according to our so-called hard pressed businessppl?

Are you suggesting we have a flexible labour system? really?

The loss of jobs in the private sector during a recession is no indicator of a flexible labour system.

A flexible labour system is not limited to hiring and firing, but to the ability to use workers in a flexible manner, without remuneration restrictions. To share the benefits of employment and spread them across more workers, rather than a single highly paid worker.

Arg... I give up..

Stats proving that the retail sector is larger than the manufacturing sector does not prove we have more malls than factories ffs... Why is this concept so hard to grasp?.. Esp for people that seem to want to put themselves forward as people who understand economics?...

and yes we spend more than we produce... alot of countries do really...

All of these post try and cover some really complex economic concepts, but then they're based on a really naive outlook on the global economic reality, as well as how systems interact.

Arg... I give up..

Stats proving that the retail sector is larger than the manufacturing sector does not prove we have more malls than factories ffs... Why is this concept so hard to grasp?..

Ok you win, jeez!! I was making a point that we're a consumer nation rather than a manufacturing juggernaut.

Sheesh buddy keep your panties on!

I suggest the following if over the next decade SA will grow at 7% or more, this will mean our economy will double, eleiminate worst types of poverty and unemployment.

Workers

1. workers need to limit their pay rises to inflation and productivity (however govt should take steps to bring down cost of living for workers, e.g. invest in a good transit system - this is already happening with BRT)
2. Incentives should be given for productivity



1. bosses need to stop benchmarking salaries against Europe and N.America, SA is a developing country
2. bosses can't always take the credit for good comapny performance. If the whole economy is doing well, most companies will benefit, "a rising tide lifts all boats"
3. there's already extensive literature about ethical excutive remuneration, e.g. bosses can only access a fraction of their bonus, companies can clawback some of the bonuses if the company subsequently makes losses


Govt

1. good, clean and efficient govt is a prerequisite as it inspires confidence from the top
2. stop patronage and cadre deployment (there are indications this is already happening)
3. Good education, health and infrastructure is fundamental - Govt needs to go all out on this...

Middle-Classes

1. Have to accept that some taxes will be ineviteble if our infrastructure backlogs will be tackled, especially
2. recognise that things like tolls, carbon tax are inevitable if the economy is to be more efficient
3. retain a positive outlook / stop comparing SA to Australia and such, SA was never in the league of Aus, if it looked like that it was an illusion

Everyone needs to sacrifice not only trade-unionists...

Will continue, need to get back to some work...


I completely agree with you ngwaneso. I need to note the fact through reading your posts I have also realised that you ackowledge the fact that the ANC is not performing to it's best and it can do more if they rid things like cadre deployment. We are in desperate need of an alternative to the ANC so that it can be kept to it's toes.

Are you suggesting we have a flexible labour system? really?



Yes I really believe that, I think it's one of those urban myths that assume an aura of being a truism just because they've been repeated enough times.

A flexible labour system is not limited to hiring and firing, but to the ability to use workers in a flexible manner, without remuneration restrictions.

Regulation is a fact of life, flexibility in itself is not an end. You're not suggesting with a serious face that employers should have have no restrictions on how much they pay their workers.
restrictions like a living wage, occupational safety, reasonable working hours, etc, all these are the hallmarks of a civilised labour market.

@ Econ77


To raise our economy by 7%, stimulate the market. Reduce the rigidity of our labour market (if a company can't fire under preforming workers, why on earth would anyone want to perform?)

Here's the relevant section of the labour act:

188. Other unfair dismissals
(1) A dismissal that is not automatically unfair, is unfair if the employer fails to prove-

(a) that the reason for dismissal is a fair reason-

(i) related to the employee's conduct or capacity; or

(ii) based on the employer's operational requirements; and

http://www.labour.gov.za/legislation/acts/labour-relations/read-online/document.2008-05-29.3935608242/?searchterm=fair dismissal

Basically means employer can fire someone for not being up for the job, they just have to provide evidence if the dismissal is not to be considered unfair. What is so unreasonable about that?

All of these post try and cover some really complex economic concepts, but then they're based on a really naive outlook on the global economic reality, as well as how systems interact.

Pray enlighten us

Basically means employer can fire someone for not being up for the job, they just have to provide evidence if the dismissal is not to be considered unfair. What is so unreasonable about that?

Yes, that is true of course. Though it is not always entirely as simple as you make it out to be. If the employee deems his/her dismissal to be unfair (as they usually do), they can very easily approach various entities to fight it. The means additional time and effort spent by the employer.

But i was referring to more than just that though. One cannot dismiss the minimum wage, pension, etc requirements. Again take the textile industry. Whats best, having 100 000 more on social grants because the industry couldnt keep paying minimum wage, or having 100 000 that earn more than social grants in private sector , though less than current minimum wage?

Economically, BEE can also be included. Lastly, the massive power of the unions (i.e. sympathy strikes).

what happened here... :colbert:

Yes I really believe that, I think it's one of those urban myths that assume an aura of being a truism just because they've been repeated enough times.



Regulation is a fact of life, flexibility in itself is not an end. You're not suggesting with a serious face that employers should have have no restrictions on how much they pay their workers.
restrictions like a living wage, occupational safety, reasonable working hours, etc, all these are the hallmarks of a civilised labour market.

@ Econ77



Here's the relevant section of the labour act:


http://www.labour.gov.za/legislation/acts/labour-relations/read-online/document.2008-05-29.3935608242/?searchterm=fair dismissal (http://www.labour.gov.za/legislation/acts/labour-relations/read-online/document.2008-05-29.3935608242/?searchterm=fair%20dismissal)

Basically means employer can fire someone for not being up for the job, they just have to provide evidence if the dismissal is not to be considered unfair. What is so unreasonable about that?

My comment in no way indicated or suggested a labour market without regulations or restrictions.

But how do you suggest we proceed to achieve an optimistic economic growth path with our current labour system. Its just not going to happen.

You can drive your bicycle as fast as you like but its still not a car.

We simply cannot achieve the type of goals government has set for employment and growth with our current inflexibility.

^^ ok Mo I've noted your points, in the interests of staying on topic maybe we should create a thread for economics related issues. We could call it, "7% pa economic growth: Towards full employment!! Viva Prosperity Viva!! lol

Otherwise I think we may be boring the living hell out of our fellow forumners.

Lets move discussions to South African Economy: News & Developments (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=305851)

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/article39508.ece

Yes, that is true of course. Though it is not always entirely as simple as you make it out to be. If the employee deems his/her dismissal to be unfair (as they usually do), they can very easily approach various entities to fight it. The means additional time and effort spent by the employer.

But i was referring to more than just that though. One cannot dismiss the minimum wage, pension, etc requirements. Again take the textile industry. Whats best, having 100 000 more on social grants because the industry couldnt keep paying minimum wage, or having 100 000 that earn more than social grants in private sector , though less than current minimum wage?

Economically, BEE can also be included. Lastly, the massive power of the unions (i.e. sympathy strikes).

Some of the biggest issues I have with the current labour system are the gap between social grants and minimun wages (but this is tricky as low minimun wages might encourage the use of social grants) and the ability of unions to strike for non direct disputes. Also the current arbitration process for unfair dismissal is bizzare.