Human Development Report 2010

2010 HDI Ranking

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/473/hdi2010.jpg

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

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http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/map/



African Countries Rankings

53 - Libyan Arab Jamahiriya ▲ +2
72 - Mauritius ▲ +9
81 - Tunisia ▲ +17
84 - Algeria ▲ +20
94 - Gabon ▲ +9
98 - Botswana ▲ +27
101 - Egypt ▲ +22
105 - Namibia ▲ +23
110 - South Africa ▲ +19
114 - Morocco ▲ +16
117 - Equatorial Guinea ▲ +1
118 - Cape Verde ▲ +3
121 - Swaziland ▲ +21
126 - Congo ▲ +10
127 - São Tomé and Príncipe ▲ +4
128 - Kenya ▲ +19
130 - Ghana ▲ +22
131 - Cameroon
134 - Benin
135 - Madagascar
136 - Mauritania
139 - Togo
140 - Comoros
141 - Lesotho
142 - Nigeria
143 - Uganda
144 - Senegal
146 - Angola
147 - Djibouti
148 - Tanzania (United Republic of)
149 - Côte d'Ivoire
150 - Zambia
151 - Gambia
152 - Rwanda
153 - Malawi
154 - Sudan
156 - Guinea
157 - Ethiopia
158 - Sierra Leone
159 - Central African Republic
160 - Mali
161 - Burkina Faso
162 - Liberia
163 - Chad
164 - Guinea-Bissau
165 - Mozambique
166 - Burundi
167 - Niger
168 - Congo (Democratic Republic of the)
169 - Zimbabwe

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4388/hdr2010entables01c.jpg

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2010_EN_Tables.pdf


2007 HDI Ranking
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http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/5800/hdr2010entables11c.jpg

Satisfactory performance from Nigeria, a lot of work to do. Nothing to celebrate, but progress nonetheless.

over the next two decades our standard of living should near South Africa's Standard of living as it is today.

Could be better but yeah progress. I'll take that.

The mean years of schooling for many African countries is downright atrocious.

Kenya is just on the verge. Come on people, lets make that last push!

wow, just re-read, and if we make it to the "medium" human development list, we could potentially be in the same class as Botswana and China!

The Black continent is in trouble, Ghana, Kenya and Nigeria will surely improve in the next decades.

Wow, changing their method has totally screwed up the results. You can't even tell who has improved over last year.

egypt69: why did you fucking had to closed my thread ? i posted way before him. you should be ashamed of yourself. husein has closed my other thread. i posted way before him. shame on you shame on you. if you guys have decided to against me. its very clear your agenda. shame on you shame on you. you should be ashamed of what you did. seriously, i posted way before him and this is the way you say thank you hein ? shame on you shame on you

egypt69: why did you fucking had to closed my thread ? i posted way before him. you should be ashamed of yourself. husein has closed my other thread. i posted way before him. shame on you shame on you

First of all, watch your language and have some respect!

Second of all, if you bother to look at the timings, you both posted them at the exact same time. However the Business, Economy and Infrastructure section, is the more appropriate place to discuss this than The Oasis.

egypt69: why did you fucking had to closed my thread ? i posted way before him. you should be ashamed of yourself. husein has closed my other thread. i posted way before him. shame on you shame on you

I was about to post there and it says "Thread Closed" just wondering! :lol:

Wow, changing their method has totally screwed up the results. You can't even tell who has improved over last year.

If you go by raw numbers, nobody improved---it's more of a case of some nations falling more than others.

Algeria and Tunisia are now considered high development with this new method.

So Egypt climbed in the rankings, from 123rd to 101st, buts its actual Human Development Index Value dropped from 0.703 to 0.620....

------

Wow, changing their method has totally screwed up the results. You can't even tell who has improved over last year.

You can know who improved in a number of ways depending on what you mean by improve.

1) You can look at the ranking and use that. For example based on the ranking, Nigeria has improved (However less countries were surveyed this year for reasons unbeknown to me)

2) You can look at the % increase of the individual country or the weighted HDIs from previous years, it is in the website. (According to this for example Nigeria has improved at the same rate as it has in previous years)

3) The other thing to consider is this is not necessarily really improvement, for example you can see in the list some countries have gone significantly higher or lower etc, but that does not actually reflect the changes etc. The change in criteria like you said has distorted things, however I guess all you have to do is see this years HDI has the same as other years and that they are comparable

4) Even if the methodology was the same, the HDI does not reflect short term changes accurately. It is more a long term thing. If you want a better appreciation of the HDI, you have to look over a longer period of time like 5,10 years etc

So Egypt climbed in the rankings, from 123rd to 101st, buts its actual Human Development Index Value dropped from 0.703 to 0.620....

That's just the new method.

That's just the new method.

True. Still trying to understand it, and understand how to measure improvement.

You can compare progress here:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/

True. Still trying to understand it, and understand how to measure improvement.

If you visit the profile of the country you can see the increase per year.

And it seems they have scaled the HDIs of previous systems i.e. adjusted them so you can compare this years HDI to previous years.

Here is Egypt's profile (http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/EGY.html)

It's a bit difficult to see it for Egypt because its growth is so close to the world and Arab states growth

I noticed that if it wasn't for their low life expectancies, Gabon and Botswana would have probably made it into the "High HDI" rank.

Look at most SS Africa's Life expectancy . LOL.

You can compare progress here:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/trends/

Thanks.



Look how Rwanda is skyrocketing upwards.

But there are lots of disappointments too. CIV, CAR, Chad, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Comoros, are either stagnating or downright declining! A lot of Southern African countries declined a few years ago too, but at least we know with them it's the high HIV/AIDS rate and they're back on the upward track. Let's not even touch Zimbabwe though.

I can still can't get over Peru...

Yes I'm being a hater :bash:

Thought Mauritania would be much lower (on the african level of course). :)
We must do something (relatively) good.

My 2nd country Senegal never ceases to disappoint me. :ohno:

Congrats to Poland, Bahrain, Hungary and Slovakia becoming newly developed countries with regards to human development. I'm quite surprised to see how poorly the U.K performs and how well the U.S is at.

I can still can't get over Peru...

Yes I'm being a hater :bash:

i'm surprised too....but this info is from 2008 (or is it 2007) so brazil should start climbing in the ranking in the next few years with the progress they've made in poverty reduction. just wait until you start pumping oil out of the atlantic :banana:.

i'm surprised too....but this info is from 2008 (or is it 2007) so brazil should start climbing in the ranking in the next few years with the progress they've made in poverty reduction. just wait until you start pumping oil out of the atlantic :banana:.

The funny thing is using this metrology Peru has always been ahead and in the last 40 years Brazil along with Guatemala have made the most progress in Latin America. I have nothing against Peru I wish them the best. Also keep in mind the 2010 census came out and our Population was 3% smaller than estimated in 2009, so that should reflect in a higher GNI per capita which they use in this HDI.

The US is a complete surprise to me.

i have always put New Zealand, Canada and many European countries ahead of the US

but the HDI is a different story.


You know what I really don't care about the HDI. There is no way America is better than these countries.

I'm quite surprised to see how poorly the U.K performs and how well the U.S is at.

I thought exactly the same thing but if you check the profile of each country you will more or less see why. The UK basically has US-style murder and inequality rates (!) but fares significantly worse in other areas such as GNI/per capita.

In general, I find the new country profiles very insightful! However, people should also keep in mind that the data used in the report still predates the financial crisis. The US and Ireland, for example, are still credited with relatively low unemployment rates .

Not the Bombshell and "fireworks" we were expecting after all. A lot of people shaved for this day!

I don't know why there should be any bombshell

I am only going to provoke people if Nigeria's HDI is high :lol:

Some countries are making great strides in human development, others less so

Nov 4th 2010

SINCE 1980 the country that has made the greatest strides in improving human development is Nepal, according to the UN’s annual Human Development Index (HDI). The index is a combination of three sub-indices covering wealth, health and education. The countries whose HDI has improved the most since 1980 are mainly in Asia. China and India have been helped by rapid GDP growth, but even slower-growing countries such as Nepal and Bangladesh have fostered human development by making progress in health and education. The countries where HDI has improved the least are mainly in Africa, with Zimbabwe at the bottom of the pile.

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad238/Oumar9/HDI1.gif

For the first time this year the UN's report also considers the unevenness in the distribution of wealth, health and education among a country’s people to produce a new inequality-adjusted HDI (IHDI) which penalises countries according to the inequality of their development. This reduces countries' 2010 HDI scores by 22% on average. China's HDI is reduced by 23% and India's by 30%, which suggests that the former's rapid development has been the more equitable

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad238/Oumar9/hdi2.gif

The Economist online

in before someone claims there is a conspiracy against them and africa by the rest of the world and that the HDI report is false

First World: 0.785 - 1.000 (Very High)
Second World: 0.675 - 0.785 (High)
Third World: 0.000 - 0.675 (Medium, Low)

I don't know why there should be any bombshell

I am only going to provoke people if Nigeria's HDI is high :lol:

For the past weeks or so, some people have been breakdancing about today. Some called it "Rumbleeeeeeeee" some said "explosiveeeee". Am still waiting. LMAO

Not the Bombshell and "fireworks" we were expecting after all. A lot of people shaved for this day!
:lol: Exactly what I was thinking. Maybe it's because the stats (improvements) are hard to figure out.

Strange...

In 2009 Cape Verde and Equator Guinea had more than 0.700 and were higher ranked than Morocco and now they are under Morocco...

The US is a complete surprise to me.

i have always put New Zealand, Canada and many European countries ahead of the US

but the HDI is a different story.


You know what I really don't care about the HDI. There is no way America is better than these countries.

HDI is bullshit, the US is always ranked very high on rankings, because a lot of the lists are made by people from the US..Durring the crisis for example the US was also in the top of doing business..:nuts:

Before the crisis , Iceland and Greece were s also ranked very high on many international rankings for doing business. Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs knew that their lists weren't true , they only places this countries very high because they had invested a lot of money in this countries.

In general, I find the new country profiles very insightful! However, people should also keep in mind that the data used in the report still predates the financial crisis. The US and Ireland, for example, are still credited with relatively low unemployment rates .

Yes, the data is for 2007. Anyone wanting current data is going to have to wait two-three years.

According to this list the US has better development than Holland. Hahahahahaha, what a bullshit.
Holland is 100 times more developed than the US. In Holland everybody has acces to health care, housing, education etc. Someone who is poor can study on the best universities. People who can't work get welfare.
Their is no big gap between rich and poor and most of them live in the same neighbourhoods.

The US is in some regions a Thirdworld country, where 50 million people have no acces to health care, were poor people don't get the best education, or good housing. Where millions of people live on street and from ration stamps.
Where people die every year because they don't get treatment because they haven't got insurance.


How the hell can the US be better than Holland!

Yes, the data is for 2007. Anyone wanting current data is going to have to wait two-three years.

The data for this year's report is from 2008.

According to this list the US has better development than Holland. Hahahahahaha, what a bullshit.
Holland is 100 times more developed than the US. In Holland everybody has acces to health care, housing, education etc. Someone who is poor can study on the best universities. People who can't work get welfare.
Their is no big gap between rich and poor and most of them live in the same neighbourhoods.

The US is in some regions a Thirdworld country, where 50 million people have no acces to health care, were poor people don't get the best education, or good housing. Where millions of people live on street and from ration stamps.
Where people die every year because they don't get treatment because they haven't got insurance.


How the hell can the US be better than Holland!

^^ Read the data to find out why.

Personally I find the top 20 countries close enough to each other than it doesn't matter much.

The data for this year's report is from 2008.

Then Wikipedia (which already published the list on their website) is wrong because they are saying that it's 2007 data.

US number 4 in the world? Crazy!

And this is why I dont believe that GDP per capita should be included in HDI. Well it kind of works in developed countries but for developing nations.

Chech this out

Look down the page and see that Cape Verde and Eq Guinea are the same.

Life Expectancy- Cape Verde 71, EG 51

Eq Guineas HDI is inflated by its GDP per capita which does not benefit 99% of the population.

No country with an average Life Expectancy of 51 can EVER be the same as one with 71. Never!

If you visit the profile of the country you can see the increase per year.

And it seems they have scaled the HDIs of previous systems i.e. adjusted them so you can compare this years HDI to previous years.

Here is Egypt's profile (http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/EGY.html)

It's a bit difficult to see it for Egypt because its growth is so close to the world and Arab states growth

Thanks for that Tbite.

Btw, if you click on the words "World" and "Arab States" it removes their lines, so you can see the "Egypt" line more clearly.

Coincidence: I live in a country ranked 2nd from the top in the world and I come from a country ranked second from the bottom :lol:

I can still can't get over Peru...

Yes I'm being a hater :bash:

And you know!

Coincidence: I live in a country ranked 2nd from the top in the world and I come from a country ranked second from the bottom :lol:

4th here, but I come from a country that is not ranked (if it was, it would probably be the lowest). :)

The U.K is the 2nd worse placed Western European nation (5th if you consider Cyprus and Malta as Western European). Also Portugal doesn't do well at all, it's been surpassed by various Eastern European nations.

The British media is probably going to have a field day with that stuff. More "Broken Britain". :lol:

Dunno, I don't believe the gap in reality between the US and UK is that large. They have better health stats than the US.

The British media is probably going to have a field day with that stuff. More "Broken Britain". :lol:


I know!
LOL

Then all the reader comments about "jumping off the sinking ship" which usually translates into migrating to Australia :lol:

I compared Nigeria, Kenya, Rwanda, Egypt, Uganda, Equitorial Guinea, DRC, Ethiopia, and Tanzania to one another. Out of all of them, Egypt's made the biggest jump from 1980 to 2010. But, the biggest jump in the last decade went to Rwanda w/ 0.108, Ethiopia w/ 0.078 gain, Uganda w/ 0.072, and Egypt with 0.064 gain. I'm not surprised w/ Ethiopia, Rwanda, or Egypt. I read an article on AllAfrica today saying how Ethiopia was one of the countries in Africa that made the biggest jump in improvement of its standard of living within the last decade. If Ethiopia keeps this up then they'll pass Nigeria and Kenya in no time. I can't remember if Uganda and Rwanda were in the article too, but obviously they've made huge gains in the last 10 years, and overall in the last 30 larger gains than the larger East African nations. I have a feeling that they may have a higher or around the same HDI as Kenya if their streak continues.

But of course Kenya is getting itself together, but seeing how its had an HDI above .4 for over 30 years just shows lost time. Basically Kenya and Tunisia had around the same HDIs in 1980, yet Tunisia is at like 0.68 now. Not saying the 0.046 gain made since 2000 isn't a good thing, but I'm expecting more in the next ten years. Same with Nigeria, and hopefully Tanzania and DRC too.
EG hasn't budged that much, which is a shame.

^^

We can't expect to see any major leaps from Nigeria, we haven't been doing much. However I think in the next 5-10 years however the change will be phenomenal. When Nigeria starts to grow, the growth will be mind blowing. There will still be inequality, but the bolstered industries will result in so much additional wealth and capital that I expect a lot of these things such as Health, life expectancy and income to increase dramatically.

We will see a lot of money coming into Nigeria in the next 5-10 years. Like I said, in 20 years time, Nigeria will be in a similar to South Africa of today, in fact even higher (relatively), according to UNDP projections.

US number 4 in the world? Crazy!

And this is why I dont believe that GDP per capita should be included in HDI. Well it kind of works in developed countries but for developing nations.

Chech this out

Look down the page and see that Cape Verde and Eq Guinea are the same.

Life Expectancy- Cape Verde 71, EG 51

Eq Guineas HDI is inflated by its GDP per capita which does not benefit 99% of the population.

Thats SS Africa mostly . only exceptions.

No country with an average Life Expectancy of 51 can EVER be the same as one with 71. Never!

Its why the GDP Capita is interpreted badly .

I know!
LOL

Then all the reader comments about "jumping off the sinking ship" which usually translates into migrating to Australia :lol:

Are you trying to say that us Brits are miserable cynics who like to sensationalise negativity about our own nation? Never! :)

no offence guys, but there’s plenty of work ahead of you in order to get at least a decent way of living. the only country in africa that I’ve been to so far is egypt which is ranked 101st, one of the best scores concerning Africa. from my personal experience I know that discrepancy between rich and poor is enormous. on one hand, they have several extremely nice neighbourhoods separated from others, and on the other, poverty of vast population is very apparent. filthy streets (and I’m being polite here), bad clothes, bad cars, unfinished houses, terrible living conditions...
when I c how you are comparing countries it's seems just ridiculous to me. due to one of mine postgraduate research papers, I have found out that only south Africa and Botswana have something that can be comparable to the western/european standards. everything else is a misery

I compared Nigeria, Kenya, Rwanda, Egypt, Uganda, Equitorial Guinea, DRC, Ethiopia, and Tanzania to one another. Out of all of them, Egypt's made the biggest jump from 1980 to 2010. But, the biggest jump in the last decade went to Rwanda w/ 0.108, Ethiopia w/ 0.078 gain, Uganda w/ 0.072, and Egypt with 0.064 gain. I'm not surprised w/ Ethiopia, Rwanda, or Egypt. I read an article on AllAfrica today saying how Ethiopia was one of the countries in Africa that made the biggest jump in improvement of its standard of living within the last decade. If Ethiopia keeps this up then they'll pass Nigeria and Kenya in no time. I can't remember if Uganda and Rwanda were in the article too, but obviously they've made huge gains in the last 10 years, and overall in the last 30 larger gains than the larger East African nations. I have a feeling that they may have a higher or around the same HDI as Kenya if their streak continues.

But of course Kenya is getting itself together, but seeing how its had an HDI above .4 for over 30 years just shows lost time. Basically Kenya and Tunisia had around the same HDIs in 1980, yet Tunisia is at like 0.68 now. Not saying the 0.046 gain made since 2000 isn't a good thing, but I'm expecting more in the next ten years. Same with Nigeria, and hopefully Tanzania and DRC too.
EG hasn't budged that much, which is a shame.

I dont think we can compare old HDI now that theyve change the method. Perhaps they should also still publish the old method for some time so we can see the difference.

But I think the countries that are going to go up the most in living standard over the next decades are the likes of Ghana, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Angola eventually. And of course Zimbabwe as it "rebounds".

US number 4 in the world? Crazy!

And this is why I dont believe that GDP per capita should be included in HDI. Well it kind of works in developed countries but for developing nations.

Chech this out

Look down the page and see that Cape Verde and Eq Guinea are the same.

Life Expectancy- Cape Verde 71, EG 51

Eq Guineas HDI is inflated by its GDP per capita which does not benefit 99% of the population.

No country with an average Life Expectancy of 51 can EVER be the same as one with 71. Never!



+1

Life Expectancy is the most important thing to measure how the development in a country is. If people live long its means that the social conditions are good.
That is why the HID doesn't make sense, some countries with low Life expectancy are ranked very high .

I dont think we can compare old HDI now that theyve change the method. Perhaps they should also still publish the old method for some time so we can see the difference.

But I think the countries that are going to go up the most in living standard over the next decades are the likes of Ghana, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Angola eventually. And of course Zimbabwe as it "rebounds".

Check the U.N Human development website and that even though they've changed the methodology they track progress over the last 30 years based on that methodology, based on it Tunisia has made the greatest progress in the last 30 years in the entire world!

I think we should make a rule that every time we praise an Africa country we also add on Tunisia, to make up for the utter neglect we've given this nation despite it's splendid record in human development.

Also note to be critical but Angola's HDI is really horrendous, I'm aware that it had a civil war a decade ago, but given its huge growth and a GDP per capita among the highest in SSA it's social indicators lag big time. It's clear to see that the wealth hasn't gone to the masses far from it.

^^

We can't expect to see any major leaps from Nigeria, we haven't been doing much. However I think in the next 5-10 years however the change will be phenomenal. When Nigeria starts to grow, the growth will be mind blowing. There will still be inequality, but the bolstered industries will result in so much additional wealth and capital that I expect a lot of these things such as Health, life expectancy and income to increase dramatically.

We will see a lot of money coming into Nigeria in the next 5-10 years. Like I said, in 20 years time, Nigeria will be in a similar to South Africa of today, in fact even higher (relatively), according to UNDP projections.



The HID list doesn't count the huge informal sector in Nigeria and in other African countries. Africa has one of the biggest informal sector.
The people who live a good life thanks the informal sector are according HID poor, because they have no formal income.
That is why I think that Nigeria and other African countries have in reality a much better HID.

On the right side of the table, there's the HDI without including the GNI/capita. When income is removed, some countries, like Ethiopia, have higher HDI, others, like EG and Angola, have much reduced HDI. IMO, that's the one we should be looking at.

On the right side of the table, there's the HDI without including the GNI/capita. When income is removed, some countries, like Ethiopia, have higher HDI, others, like EG and Angola, have much reduced HDI. IMO, that's the one we should be looking at.

That's the case with at least 90% of the countries, their HDI when GNI per capita is removed increases substantially. GNI should remain it takes into account remittances and having wealth should be a criteria, even if it's skewed by inequality. In fact GNI per capita probably under states the average person's income even more because if inequality and that would further reduce most developing nations HDI. You need to have some income indicator, but it's bound to be somewhat skewed one way or another.

no offence guys, but there’s plenty of work ahead of you in order to get at least a decent way of living. the only country in africa that I’ve been to so far is egypt which is ranked 101st, one of the best scores concerning Africa. from my personal experience I know that discrepancy between rich and poor is enormous. on one hand, they have several extremely nice neighbourhoods separated from others, and on the other, poverty of vast population is very apparent. filthy streets (and I’m being polite here), bad clothes, bad cars, unfinished houses, terrible living conditions...
when I c how you are comparing countries it's seems just ridiculous to me. due to one of mine postgraduate research papers, I have found out that only south Africa and Botswana have something that can be comparable to the western/european standards. everything else is a misery

Is your brain the size of a peanut. Can you please partake in a discussion without sounding condescending. Was Western civilization built with your hands?. Why should we be offended by your ignorant remark.

I suggest you revise your postgraduate research papers, before they are thrown into the rubbish.

I will not entertain you any further.

Qatar is the most devloped muslim country, while Barbados is the most developed black country.

Qatar is the most devloped muslim country, while Barbados is the most developed black country.

Erm, No. 'Developed' encompasses many things that Barbados lacks.

Erm, No. 'Developed' encompasses many things that Barbados lacks.

Well based on the list it is the most, and it's at very high.

Yeah true

Check the U.N Human development website and that even though they've changed the methodology they track progress over the last 30 years based on that methodology, based on it Tunisia has made the greatest progress in the last 30 years in the entire world!

I think we should make a rule that every time we praise an Africa country we also add on Tunisia, to make up for the utter neglect we've given this nation despite it's splendid record in human development.

Also note to be critical but Angola's HDI is really horrendous, I'm aware that it had a civil war a decade ago, but given its huge growth and a GDP per capita among the highest in SSA it's social indicators lag big time. It's clear to see that the wealth hasn't gone to the masses far from it.

We SHOULD be critical of Angola. The government hasnt done anywhere near as much as it can to develop agriculture which would really bring down poverty- look at what Ghana achieved with much slower growth. This country should be a MASSIVE net exporter due to its relative large size, fertile soil, diverse climate, and tiny population.

The skyline of Luanda will probably be the most impressive in SSA (outside of SA) within 5 years but who is REALLY benefiting?

In the meanwhile, his daughter is probably a billionaire (totally unrelated but she's actually quite attractive :lol:)


Speaking of which, where is Matt these days? Seriously, where is he? His last log-in was 2 weeks ago almost! For him, thats really strange.

Here's the new wikipedia page for 2010 stats (data is from 2008) it shows how much improvement from the year before based on the new methodology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

We SHOULD be critical of Angola. The government hasnt done anywhere near as much as it can to develop agriculture which would really bring down poverty- look at what Ghana achieved with much slower growth. This country should be a MASSIVE net exporter due to its relative large size, fertile soil, diverse climate, and tiny population.

The skyline of Luanda will probably be the most impressive in SSA (outside of SA) within 5 years but who is REALLY benefiting?

In the meanwhile, his daughter is probably a billionaire (totally unrelated but she's actually quite attractive :lol:)


Speaking of which, where is Matt these days? Seriously, where is he? His last log-in was 2 weeks ago almost! For him, thats really strange.

That's what I'm talking about we have a habit (all of us) to just look at growth statistics but their is a difference between high fast growth and more moderate quality growth. Ghana has been relatively off the radar in terms of attention here regarding economic growth, yet with 5-6% they've been the most successful country in the continent at reducing poverty.

They did the same thing comparing the BRIC countries in poverty alleviation, by comparing poverty reduction per percent growth. That would be so fascinating if they did the same for Africa, I guarantee you it would be telling.

We SHOULD be critical of Angola. The government hasnt done anywhere near as much as it can to develop agriculture which would really bring down poverty- look at what Ghana achieved with much slower growth. This country should be a MASSIVE net exporter due to its relative large size, fertile soil, diverse climate, and tiny population.

The skyline of Luanda will probably be the most impressive in SSA (outside of SA) within 5 years but who is REALLY benefiting?

In the meanwhile, his daughter is probably a billionaire (totally unrelated but she's actually quite attractive :lol:)


Speaking of which, where is Matt these days? Seriously, where is he? His last log-in was 2 weeks ago almost! For him, thats really strange.

Who is "he"?

We SHOULD be critical of Angola. The government hasnt done anywhere near as much as it can to develop agriculture which would really bring down poverty- look at what Ghana achieved with much slower growth. This country should be a MASSIVE net exporter due to its relative large size, fertile soil, diverse climate, and tiny population.

The skyline of Luanda will probably be the most impressive in SSA (outside of SA) within 5 years but who is REALLY benefiting?

In the meanwhile, his daughter is probably a billionaire (totally unrelated but she's actually quite attractive :lol:)


Speaking of which, where is Matt these days? Seriously, where is he? His last log-in was 2 weeks ago almost! For him, thats really strange.



Angola needs to do economic reforms. They have huge potential in many sectors. Pumping money into the economy will not help them to reduce poverty or divers their economy..

We can really learn so much from Turkey. What Turkey has achieved in 10 years is a miracle. Turkey has no resources, but thanks to economic reforms done by the AK party they are now ' The China of Europe' . They have this year 10% economic growth. Everywhere you look in Turkey you see new industrial parks been build. Their middle class is booming. They are going to become the fifth economy of Europe.
Turkey is going to become a developed country before Brasil, China, Russia and India.

Turkey shows that a country doesn't need resources to become a major economy. Turkey economy is far more developed and more modern than the economies of the rich Gulf countries. This countries have a lot of money reserves and resources, but their economies are weak and they have no industry like Turkey.
Turkey shows that economic reforms are 100 times more worth than resources.
Countries like Singapore knew this decades ago and that is why their are now so succesfull..

We can really learn so much from Turkey. What Turkey has achieved in 10 years is a miracle. Turkey has no resources, but thanks to economic reforms done by the AK party they are now ' The China of Europe' . They have this year 10% economic growth. Everywhere you look in Turkey you see new industrial parks been build. Their middle class is booming. They are going to become the fifth economy of Europe.
Turkey is going to become a developed country before Brasil, China, Russia and India.

Turkey shows that a country doesn't need resources to become a major economy. Turkey economy is far more developed and more modern than the economies of the rich Gulf countries. This countries have a lot of money reserves and resources, but their economies are weak and they have no industry like Turkey.
Turkey shows that economic reforms are 100 times more worth than resources.
Countries like Singapore knew this decades ago and that is why their are now so succesfull..

+100.

Turkey can be a model to many.

I can see Egypt following the Turkish model, since Egypt today has similar properties to the Turkey of 10 or so years ago, not only in the economic aspect, but in the political one too.

According to the new HDI data, Iran has a higher slightly HDI than Turkey. Wonder why.

We SHOULD be critical of Angola. The government hasnt done anywhere near as much as it can to develop agriculture which would really bring down poverty- look at what Ghana achieved with much slower growth. This country should be a MASSIVE net exporter due to its relative large size, fertile soil, diverse climate, and tiny population.

SSA mentality wont allow that.

The skyline of Luanda will probably be the most impressive in SSA (outside of SA) within 5 years but who is REALLY benefiting?

An ultra tiny elite . With foreigners enjoying more than the rest of the people.

In the meanwhile, his daughter is probably a billionaire (totally unrelated but she's actually quite attractive :lol:)


She is hot.

With this Congolese fool hitting it.

She is hot.

With this Congolese fool hitting it.

I feel left out...

That's what I'm talking about we have a habit (all of us) to just look at growth statistics but their is a difference between high fast growth and more moderate quality growth. Ghana has been relatively off the radar in terms of attention here regarding economic growth, yet with 5-6% they've been the most successful country in the continent at reducing poverty.

They did the same thing comparing the BRIC countries in poverty alleviation, by comparing poverty reduction per percent growth. That would be so fascinating if they did the same for Africa, I guarantee you it would be telling.

Angolas excuse of the war is getting less valid as the years get on. They really should have made bigger progress in agriculture by now. Im actually very dissapointed at the amount of money they put into this sector.

According to the new HDI data, Iran has a higher slightly HDI than Turkey. Wonder why.

They have roughly the same population, but one of them has a ton of oil. Iran is roughly a welfare state, it has little innovation it's economy. Which is a shame because Iranians are extremely intelligent and capable people.

Another component is that while the state does little for minorities like the Kurds in Turkey and Arabs in Iran, in the latter they only make 3% of the population while in Turkey Kurds are at least 20% of the population. Marginalized minority groups are larger in Turkey.

I think your second paragraph is more realistic since there are many welfare states richer than Iran that do well in HDI.

However I believe that Iran is actually more diverse than Turkey since Persians only make half of the population there.

I think your second paragraph is more realistic since there are many welfare states richer than Iran that do well in HDI.

However I believe that Iran is actually more diverse than Turkey since Persians only make half of the population there.

Yeah but it's hard to have a wealthy welfare state when theirs 70 million people and your only real form of income is oil. That's partly why Ahmadinejad is so popular with poor Iranians he spends a ton of money on subsidies, it's extremely inefficient and costly for the economy but the poor like it.

True Iran is a lot more diverse and many will say that it isn't Persians but Azeris who are disproportionately in positions of political power in Iran.

Check the U.N Human development website and that even though they've changed the methodology they track progress over the last 30 years based on that methodology, based on it Tunisia has made the greatest progress in the last 30 years in the entire world!

I think we should make a rule that every time we praise an Africa country we also add on Tunisia, to make up for the utter neglect we've given this nation despite it's splendid record in human development.

Also note to be critical but Angola's HDI is really horrendous, I'm aware that it had a civil war a decade ago, but given its huge growth and a GDP per capita among the highest in SSA it's social indicators lag big time. It's clear to see that the wealth hasn't gone to the masses far from it.



Tunisia succes is thanks to economic reforms. In the sixties the started with a state controlled economic model, but they saw that it didn't work and changed this. At that time whole North-Africa had a state controlled economy. Thanks to the economic reforms they have no for years a stabile economic growth.
Tunisia has thanks to the economic reforms a very open economy and they are in the top of doing business. Tunisia hasn't got much state companies, because a lot of those companies are privatised. And that has created a lot of jobs and a stabile big middle class..

Brazil 2008 ^3 , in 2010 ^5

http://d.imagehost.org/0506/Human_Development.jpg
Wikipedia

Jeez, that map is embarrassing. 90% of the low development nations are African.

Erm, No. 'Developed' encompasses many things that Barbados lacks.

what is it that barbados lacks? I'm interested to find out from you.

Jeez, that map is embarrassing. 90% of the low development nations are African.

Biggest shock for me though is Congo-Brazzville, I know it has a ton of oil but I'm still surprised that their in the "medium" category. I've read that their leader is the most corrupt on the continent.

what is it that barbados lacks? I'm interested to find out from you.

I don't know much about Barbados but in many Caribbean countries the way their economy is structured entirely to tourism and off shore banking you get the sense that much of the wealth and money is foreign, especially since much of the large chain hotels are Western owned. It begs the question how much of it trickles down to the population. Tourism industry is the biggest employer which is good, but what kind of jobs are they offering?

I don't know much about Barbados but in many Caribbean countries the way their economy is structured entirely to tourism and off shore banking you get the sense that much of the wealth and money is foreign, especially since much of the large chain hotels are Western owned. It begs the question how much of it trickles down to the population. Tourism industry is the biggest employer which is good, but what kind of jobs are they offering?

You're right. Although Barbados got the most important things right (health and education), living is quite difficult for non-tourists. Because of the tourism-service nature of the economy, everything is priced at a ridiculous premium and the wages are terrible. If you've ever lived in the developed world, or even any fast-paced, industrialized country, you'll find Barbados extremely frustrating after a month. Everything is imported, and there's usually a monopoly on most commodities. The country is economically dependent on the US, Canada and the UK. Everything significant is owned by foreigners. It's basically evolved to find itself under extreme economic slavery. The government own the lone media house. The society is democratic, but the population largely divorced from government. The economy is very stagnant because of the illusion of development the people suffer from. It's easier to set up a business on the moon; the entrepreneurial spirit is extinct. Due to its size, it takes very little to get systems to work though. The country is literally the size of a good African farmland. It makes no sense measuring it with the same economic metrics as countries like Egypt, Kenya...

If you need a vacation, Barbados is awesome. You won't need to be told to leave and head back to real-life after a month.

I don't know much about Barbados but in many Caribbean countries the way their economy is structured entirely to tourism and off shore banking you get the sense that much of the wealth and money is foreign, especially since much of the large chain hotels are Western owned. It begs the question how much of it trickles down to the population. Tourism industry is the biggest employer which is good, but what kind of jobs are they offering?

Bahamas and Barbados human indicators are better than Brazil eg life expectancy- 77 for Bdos, 74 for Bah, 72 for Brazil.

From what I can tell though, the Bajan economy is in the hands of the 5% white minority whereas in Bahamas, its American money.

These are countries which I would guess are developed in terms of social development but lesser developed in terms of economy, industry and infrastructure.

Jeez, that map is embarrassing. 90% of the low development nations are African.

Damn enbarrassing for SS Africa.even those ahead of DRC, are also black ink.:ohno:

^^ No doubt about it.

Biggest shock for me though is Congo-Brazzville, I know it has a ton of oil but I'm still surprised that their in the "medium" category. I've read that their leader is the most corrupt on the continent.

I think you answered your own question there, lol.

Bahamas and Barbados human indicators are better than Brazil eg life expectancy- 77 for Bdos, 74 for Bah, 72 for Brazil.

From what I can tell though, the Bajan economy is in the hands of the 5% white minority whereas in Bahamas, its American money.

These are countries which I would guess are developed in terms of social development but lesser developed in terms of economy, industry and infrastructure.

You really can't compare those islands to Brazil, totally unfair.

But I agree they have social development but economies that really aren't all that dynamic.

^^ No doubt about it.



I think you answered your own question there, lol.

I don't think it's a question of them giving false statistics. Maybe because they get a lot of oil money they can afford to steal half.

Damn enbarrassing for SS Africa.even those ahead of DRC, are also black ink.:ohno:

I think by next year both Ghana and Kenya will be out of the "low" category.

You're right. Although Barbados got the most important things right (health and education), living is quite difficult for non-tourists. Because of the tourism-service nature of the economy, everything is priced at a ridiculous premium and the wages are terrible. If you've ever lived in the developed world, or even any fast-paced, industrialized country, you'll find Barbados extremely frustrating after a month. Everything is imported, and there's usually a monopoly on most commodities. The country is economically dependent on the US, Canada and the UK. Everything significant is owned by foreigners. It's basically evolved to find itself under extreme economic slavery. The government own the lone media house. The society is democratic, but the population largely divorced from government. The economy is very stagnant because of the illusion of development the people suffer from. It's easier to set up a business on the moon; the entrepreneurial spirit is extinct. Due to its size, it takes very little to get systems to work though. The country is literally the size of a good African farmland. It makes no sense measuring it with the same economic metrics as countries like Egypt, Kenya...

If you need a vacation, Barbados is awesome. You won't need to be told to leave and head back to real-life after a month.

The gdp per capita of barbados is around $18500 US dollars. That's not to bad. And since I'm from the carribbean I can tell you first hand that a lot of Brazillians are living in the small carribbean country of Suriname. Simply because living is better there. With a population of around 400 thousand, 50 thousand are Brazillian immigrants. So yes the living standard in most caribbean countries is better than in Brazil period. Brazil maybe powerfull and an industrial power but it's human rights records is atrocius, and many brazillians live in very difficult economic conditions. In short with exception of Haiti the standard of living in the caribbean is many times better than Brazils.

You really can't compare those islands to Brazil, totally unfair.

But I agree they have social development but economies that really aren't all that dynamic.

People( nationals) from the Bahamas do not need any visa to come to the USA and don't need any work permit to work in the USA. They can come the USA as they please and work anywhere in the USA as they please. Which gives them the added bonus that if they can't find a job in the bahamas they can easily come to the USA and work.

One more thing I noticed that forummers on here and especially forummers with origin from africa think that the tourist industry only provide low wage paying jobs. Nothing can be further from the truth. If anything jobs in the tourist industry are much higher paying jobs than manufacturing jobs. I don't know any field where you can earn 300 US dollars a day. Here in the USA at times on big catering parties I have bartenders working for me who makes no less than 300 us dollars a night. There are bars where the bartenders makes no less than 250 dollars every night. I don't know of any factory jobs where they pay the labarors 250 dollars a day. at most they pay them 20 dollars an hour and that's in the usa. in third wolrd countries they pay them something like 300 us dollars for a whole month of work. The point is the people involve in the tourist industry in the caribbean make a lot of money. I remember when i was growing up in Suriname and had my first job in a hotel. their where nights when i would help the occasional tourist some instructions and they would leave me a tip of anywhere from 25 to 50 dollars. Mind you suriname is not a tourist country but rather a mining country. Immagine the large tourist industry on these small island. Those residents must be making a lot of money.

Bahamas and Barbados human indicators are better than Brazil eg life expectancy- 77 for Bdos, 74 for Bah, 72 for Brazil.

From what I can tell though, the Bajan economy is in the hands of the 5% white minority whereas in Bahamas, its American money.

These are countries which I would guess are developed in terms of social development but lesser developed in terms of economy, industry and infrastructure.

@ Popa1980. One thing I have come to realize is that it's not who owns the economy but rather who benefit from it. It doesn't really matter if americans owns everything on the island. It all depends who benefit from it. who has a really good paying job for life. Health care, education and the necessacity of life.Does it really matter if the company is onwed by the scottisch people if the company is only employing english people. Yes you may not get the profit, but the government can still get the profit by slapping royalty, taxes, special profit taxes and all types of fees on the income of the company. And in suriname the government sometimes even decided for the american company what the price of the Bauxiet and to whom to sell it to. In away indirectly controlling the company, which is a win win situation since you don't have the possibility of government mismanagement of the company but still get the money.

If you own the economy, you benefit from it much more than someone who works for you. Money = POWER.
So yes, instead of being a bartender earning $100k a year (or whatever), it's better to own the dang bar and earn $1,000,000.

One more thing I noticed that forummers on here and especially forummers with origin from africa think that the tourist industry only provide low wage paying jobs. Nothing can be further from the truth. If anything jobs in the tourist industry are much higher paying jobs than manufacturing jobs. I don't know any field where you can earn 300 US dollars a day. Here in the USA at times on big catering parties I have bartenders working for me who makes no less than 300 us dollars a night. There are bars where the bartenders makes no less than 250 dollars every night. I don't know of any factory jobs where they pay the labarors 250 dollars a day. at most they pay them 20 dollars an hour and that's in the usa. in third wolrd countries they pay them something like 300 us dollars for a whole month of work. The point is the people involve in the tourist industry in the caribbean make a lot of money. I remember when i was growing up in Suriname and had my first job in a hotel. their where nights when i would help the occasional tourist some instructions and they would leave me a tip of anywhere from 25 to 50 dollars. Mind you suriname is not a tourist country but rather a mining country. Immagine the large tourist industry on these small island. Those residents must be making a lot of money.

Thats not true at all. Unlike in places like Thailand or Mauritius- almost all of the hotels are in the hands of foreigners. The senior management almost always foreign people and the locals waiters, cleaners and junior management. Most of the food is imported, as is the furniture. Most of the profits are repatriated to Western nations.

If you had a choice to create 100,000 jobs in an African country, you would be very foolish if you would choose those jobs in tourism rather than manufacturing which is a value added industry.

@ Popa1980. One thing I have come to realize is that it's not who owns the economy but rather who benefit from it. It doesn't really matter if americans owns everything on the island. It all depends who benefit from it. who has a really good paying job for life. Health care, education and the necessacity of life.Does it really matter if the company is onwed by the scottisch people if the company is only employing english people. Yes you may not get the profit, but the government can still get the profit by slapping royalty, taxes, special profit taxes and all types of fees on the income of the company. And in suriname the government sometimes even decided for the american company what the price of the Bauxiet and to whom to sell it to. In away indirectly controlling the company, which is a win win situation since you don't have the possibility of government mismanagement of the company but still get the money.

So it doesnt bother you that in Barbados, the 5% minority, descendants of British plantation owners, control the bulk of the formal economy? Or the fact that the Bahamian economy is in the hands of Americans?

That brings a question- why do I get the impression that there is little entrepreneurialism within the Caribbean? I know the Sino/Indo-Trinidians are quite dynamic when it comes to business.

The gdp per capita of barbados is around $18500 US dollars. That's not to bad. And since I'm from the carribbean I can tell you first hand that a lot of Brazillians are living in the small carribbean country of Suriname. Simply because living is better there. With a population of around 400 thousand, 50 thousand are Brazillian immigrants. So yes the living standard in most caribbean countries is better than in Brazil period. Brazil maybe powerfull and an industrial power but it's human rights records is atrocius, and many brazillians live in very difficult economic conditions. In short with exception of Haiti the standard of living in the caribbean is many times better than Brazils.

I don't know why Brazil is being compared here, a bit random considering it's sheer size and population compared to small serviced based islands. But the living standards in Brazil are better than Suriname, you've distorted facts by stating immigrants. Their are plenty of Brazilians who migrate to Suriname and French Guinea but these people come from neighboring states which are poor but more importantly they do so to mine for gold, it's a question of resources but theirs less restrictions. Their not migrants in the traditional sense.

But you shouldn't put Suriname in the same boat as the Bahamas, Barbados, Cayman Islands and Netherlands Antilles which do indeed have a higher standard of living than Brazil. Looking at the Caribbean I'd say half the islands have lower standards of living, not everyone lives the poster card lifestyle, just like in Brazil.

I don't know why Brazil is being compared here, a bit random considering it's sheer size and population compared to small serviced based islands. But the living standards in Brazil are better than Suriname, you've distorted facts by stating immigrants. Their are plenty of Brazilians who migrate to Suriname and French Guinea but these people come from neighboring states which are poor but more importantly they do so to mine for gold, it's a question of resources but theirs less restrictions. Their not migrants in the traditional sense.
But you shouldn't put Suriname in the same boat as the Bahamas, Barbados, Cayman Islands and Netherlands Antilles which do indeed have a higher standard of living than Brazil. Looking at the Caribbean I'd say half the islands have lower standards of living, not everyone lives the poster card lifestyle, just like in Brazil.

check the hdi. i didn't know in brazil, people they live the poster card life style.
first of all your right you can't compare brazil with the caribbean.
having said that, it does not take away the fact that much of the caribbean has a higher living standard than brazil. like it or not suriname does have a higher living standard than brazil. looking at any of the human indicator it shows that the standard of living is higher than in brazil although brazil is catching up fast. if you know of any human indicators that shows brazil having a higher living standard than suriname , i'll be happy to accept your sources. please don't tell me that sao paolo has a higher living standard than suriname therefore brazil does. we are talking about the whole country. and if the northern part is very poor , well they are part of brazil.
this has nothing to do with brazil per se. i grew up loving brazil so please don't think i don't like brazil. i actually love brazil. it's one of my favorite countries. i'm very happy brazil is doing great. i saw its gdp per capita hit close to 10.000.00 ,suriname gdp per capita has historically always been higher than that of brazil.check your stats please. currently according to the cia wolrd fact book it's around 9500.00 so in the last 3 years brazils gdp per capita has surpassed that of suriname courtesy of our incompetant politicians.
and about brazilian 'migrating' to suriname. people don't immigrate to another area because where they are is better. rather the opposite, people migrate or immigrate to another area or country because where they are, is less better then where they are going. and it's actually immigration because it's people moving from one souvereign republic to another souvereign republic. that's why most of the brazilian immigrants are called illegal immigrants because lack of legal papers. But correct me if i'm wrong on this. not to give the wrong impression here, the brazillian immigrants are for the most part welcome in the cities, last i hurt of them, but again i could be wrong.

check the hdi.

Brazil .699
Suriname .646

FAIL :lol:

Brazil .699
Suriname .646

Ouch!

So it doesnt bother you that in Barbados, the 5% minority, descendants of British plantation owners, control the bulk of the formal economy? Or the fact that the Bahamian economy is in the hands of Americans?That brings a question- why do I get the impression that there is little entrepreneurialism within the Caribbean? I know the Sino/Indo-Trinidians are quite dynamic when it comes to business.

Why would it bother me? i can name many country for you who owns the economy, but their people live in abject poverty.

whatever impression you have about entrepreneurialism within the caribbean is yours and you are welcome to it.
and if you care to know what i think about suriname becoming independent in 1975, i think it was foolishness. if i had my way suriname would never be independent with these sorry politicians that we have.

that brings a question for you popa1980. would you rather see ghana in the state it is now with the living standard at the bottom of the pile or would you rather have a living standard like they have in aruba, curacao, barbados, bahamas, greneda?

i choose the living standard of the bahamas, barbados and you're welcome to own the headache.

FAIL :lol:

your from ehiopia and your laughing at me?:lol::lol::lol:

Ouch!

what are you ouching about please? :bash:

Brazil .699
Suriname .646

i accept the hdi. courtesy of surinamese incompetant politician. but we still have 50 thousand brazilian poor immigrants in suriname who help brought the hdi down. and the gold mining they perform in the jungle of suriname is not legal btw.

Thats not true at all. Unlike in places like Thailand or Mauritius- almost all of the hotels are in the hands of foreigners. The senior management almost always foreign people and the locals waiters, cleaners and junior management. Most of the food is imported, as is the furniture. Most of the profits are repatriated to Western nations.

If you had a choice to create 100,000 jobs in an African country, you would be very foolish if you would choose those jobs in tourism rather than manufacturing which is a value added industry.

so you would rather have 100,000 jobs at $300.00 a month versus 100,000 jobs at about $1000.00 a month. the $300.00 a month comes from the french auto manufacturer renault who is either planning to build or are already building hugh manufacturing plants in morocco and they are budgeting for $300.00 monthly wages. the $1000.00 monthly wage in the tourist industry comes from my experience being in it and know a lot about what people make in the third wolrd country in the tourist industry. i think the $1000.00 a month is accurate and i'm being conservative with the numbers here. but i don't have any official source on the $1000.00 a month. if you have the figures please post them, but please no bogus research, i'll know it anyhow.

so you would rather have 100,000 jobs at $300.00 a month versus 100,000 jobs at about $1000.00 a month. the $300.00 a month comes from the french auto manufacturer renault who is either planning to build or are already building hugh manufacturing plants in morocco and they are budgeting for $300.00 monthly wages. the $1000.00 monthly wage in the tourist industry comes from my experience being in it and know a lot about what people make in the third wolrd country in the tourist industry. i think the $1000.00 a month is accurate and i'm being conservative with the numbers here. but i don't have any official source on the $1000.00 a month. if you have the figures please post them, but please no bogus research, i'll know it anyhow.

there is no way on earth someonw who works in a hotel in Morocco will earn as much a skilled factory worker. What planet are you on?!

there is no way on earth someonw who works in a hotel in Morocco will earn as much a skilled factory worker. What planet are you on?!

on the planet earth.:lol::lol:

but please other then screaming about it not being possible give me your numbers. I'll accept them. well lets take for excample here in the usa.
factory workers make about $15.00 to $20.00 an hour. you work 8 hours @ 20 = 160.00

you have a banquet waiter who comes in @ 5.00 pm and works the party till 10.00 pm. that's 5 hours and gets a minimum of 150.00 dollars. it's most of the time 200 dollars by the way. but i'll stay conservative with a conservative number. most of the time the server eats free, . not only is the factory worker working longer hours but for less actually. is actually unable to persue a higher education because of the long hours. the worker in the hospitality industry is most often able to study in his or her free time. reason why there are waiters and bartenders in the usa that are in grad school and many students work in restaurant or hotels, simply because of the better pay, flexible hours. i have never come accross a student that works in a manufacturing plant and is persuing a college degree. i have yet to meat a student working on a chicken farm cleaning chicken and persuing a college degree. walk in to any of the restaurant in the usa and you are bound to find students working in there. in short the upward mobility in the hospitality industry is great. to be sure the dishwasher, and prep cook don't earn much which is an irony in and of itself.the dishwasher is most often minimum wage the prepcook a step above.

the main industry in barbados in tourism. their gdp per capita is 18500.00

do you think their gdp per capita would be that high if their main industry where low wage manufacturing jobs? i know their factory workers in china is something like 10 dollars a day. perhaps somebody in brazil could tell us what the differnce in wage is between the hospitality industry and manufacturing sector.
oh i forgot to mention that worked as a network engineer.
i know computer technicians in the usa who are paid 12 an 15 dollars an hour.

edit

The United states is the fourth !!
this is a big improvement but still in 2009 the US had HDI of 0.956 now it's 0.902. And for the other countries, Norway had 0.971 now it's 0.938

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2009_report

your from ehiopia and your laughing at me?:lol::lol::lol:

As usual, when people run out of arguments they resort to personal attacks.

I'm laughing at how Alex totally nailed you there, but you knew that already.

As usual, when people run out of arguments they resort to personal attacks.

I'm laughing at how Alex totally nailed you there, but you knew that already.

aren't you the one with the personal attacks?
you obviously don't get the point. you obviously have the backward mentality of nailing people.what's the benefit of that i don't know.maybe only you and your ilk would know. how is it nailing when we are having a discussion about an area of the wolrd you have no clue about? and appear to have a hard time understanding my post. i don't do discussion to nail people or to get nailed. i do discussion to learn from others or correct misunderstanding others may have.

:|

Okay "how he nailed you on your argument". Feel better?

:|

Okay "how he nailed you on your argument". Feel better?

i'm not interested in your better feeling or any of your comments on this topic, period. :nuts: i hope this is my last post responding to you, concerning this topic, so have a nice day/evening.:nuts:

You are free to not read my comments and I'm free to post them. So many crybabies here.

check the hdi. i didn't know in brazil, people they live the poster card life style.
first of all your right you can't compare brazil with the caribbean.
having said that, it does not take away the fact that much of the caribbean has a higher living standard than brazil. like it or not suriname does have a higher living standard than brazil. looking at any of the human indicator it shows that the standard of living is higher than in brazil although brazil is catching up fast. if you know of any human indicators that shows brazil having a higher living standard than suriname , i'll be happy to accept your sources. please don't tell me that sao paolo has a higher living standard than suriname therefore brazil does. we are talking about the whole country. and if the northern part is very poor , well they are part of brazil.
this has nothing to do with brazil per se. i grew up loving brazil so please don't think i don't like brazil. i actually love brazil. it's one of my favorite countries. i'm very happy brazil is doing great. i saw its gdp per capita hit close to 10.000.00 ,suriname gdp per capita has historically always been higher than that of brazil.check your stats please. currently according to the cia wolrd fact book it's around 9500.00 so in the last 3 years brazils gdp per capita has surpassed that of suriname courtesy of our incompetant politicians.
and about brazilian 'migrating' to suriname. people don't immigrate to another area because where they are is better. rather the opposite, people migrate or immigrate to another area or country because where they are, is less better then where they are going. and it's actually immigration because it's people moving from one souvereign republic to another souvereign republic. that's why most of the brazilian immigrants are called illegal immigrants because lack of legal papers. But correct me if i'm wrong on this. not to give the wrong impression here, the brazillian immigrants are for the most part welcome in the cities, last i hurt of them, but again i could be wrong.

GDP per capita PPP (2010)
Brazil $11,289
Suriname $8,955

GDP per capita Nominal (2010)
Brazil $10,470
Suriname $6,244
http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/index.php

Keep in mind that this does not take into account the 2010 census which showed Brazil had a smaller population than previously thought, should push GDP per capita by nearly $1,000

Also most Brazilians in Suriname and French Guinea are doing illegal gold mining so their in the country illegally and wouldn't figure in national statistics. Plus I wouldn't be so sure that their poorer than the average citizen.

Looks like the battle is taking off afterall.

http://www.mywebpower.com/graphics/sthumbs/michael-jackson/michael-jackson-thriller-eating-popcorn-animated.gif

Looks like the battle is taking off afterall.

http://www.mywebpower.com/graphics/sthumbs/michael-jackson/michael-jackson-thriller-eating-popcorn-animated.gif

Who would have thought, Brazil vs. Suriname. So random...

Can't believe that egypt and morocco have such low HDI's. And they are considered the countries that export the most high educated labors in the arab world.

Thats not true at all. Unlike in places like Thailand or Mauritius- almost all of the hotels are in the hands of foreigners. The senior management almost always foreign people and the locals waiters, cleaners and junior management. Most of the food is imported, as is the furniture. Most of the profits are repatriated to Western nations.

If you had a choice to create 100,000 jobs in an African country, you would be very foolish if you would choose those jobs in tourism rather than manufacturing which is a value added industry.

Julesc has a point. Manufactering doesn't pay better than working in the tourism sector. In Morocco the people who work in for example in fish factories get only 200 euro a month..The factories don't pay good salaries.
But someone who works in a hotel can earn 300/500 euro a month.
Everybody can work in a factory and that is why they pay people very low salaries. But qualified staff in the tourism sector is hard to find, because the hotelschools don't produce much students.

Also in the call center business you can earn much more than in the manufactering business. In the call center you first get a starters salary of 300 and this can increase to 700 euro a month. And also you can get a bonus..
Only engineers, high educated people in the manufactering earn a lot.

i'm not interested in your better feeling or any of your comments on this topic, period. :nuts: i hope this is my last post responding to you, concerning this topic, so have a nice day/evening.:nuts:

I hear that their is a mass immigration of Chinese to Suriname and that they are buying all the warehouses , shops and mines.

I hear that their is a mass immigration of Chinese to Suriname and that they are buying all the warehouses , shops and mines.

yep, in the past ten years or so, lots of chinese have immigrated to suriname and driven wages down. they rent warehouses, some have put up restaurant and supermarkets.

GDP per capita PPP (2010)
Brazil $11,289
Suriname $8,955

GDP per capita Nominal (2010)
Brazil $10,470
Suriname $6,244
http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/index.php

Keep in mind that this does not take into account the 2010 census which showed Brazil had a smaller population than previously thought, should push GDP per capita by nearly $1,000

Also most Brazilians in Suriname and French Guinea are doing illegal gold mining so their in the country illegally and wouldn't figure in national statistics. Plus I wouldn't be so sure that their poorer than the average citizen.
the overwhelming brazilian population in suriname live in the poorest section of the capital paramaribo, and do not have a steady income. Second all people are included in the national statistic. the 50000 illegal brazillians are part of the 480 thousand population, which helped bring down the hdi and gdp per capita, although it's not the only factor. the notion that illegal immigrants in a country don't figure in the national statistics is a myth. in suriname their children are going to school, using the healthcare system, and all other public serviceses available. somebody has to budget and pay for that. in the usa the illegal immigrant population are also counted and in the last count the government made an extra efford to count them.

Who would have thought, Brazil vs. Suriname. So random...

their is no reason for a fight. if you want an olive branch be my guest. :cheers:

GDP per capita PPP (2010)
Brazil $11,289
Suriname $8,955

GDP per capita Nominal (2010)
Brazil $10,470
Suriname $6,244
http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/index.php

Keep in mind that this does not take into account the 2010 census which showed Brazil had a smaller population than previously thought, should push GDP per capita by nearly $1,000

Also most Brazilians in Suriname and French Guinea are doing illegal gold mining so their in the country illegally and wouldn't figure in national statistics. Plus I wouldn't be so sure that their poorer than the average citizen.
good for brazil. finally brazil is taking its rightfull place on the global stage.

the overwhelming brazilian population in suriname live in the poorest section of the capital paramaribo, and do not have a steady income. Second all people are included in the national statistic. the 50000 illegal brazillians are part of the 480 thousand population, which helped bring down the hdi and gdp per capita, although it's not the only factor. the notion that illegal immigrants in a country don't figure in the national statistics is a myth. in suriname their children are going to school, using the healthcare system, and all other public serviceses available. somebody has to budget and pay for that. in the usa the illegal immigrant population are also counted and in the last count the government made an extra efford to count them.

Dude Brazilians in Suriname are not like Mexicans in the U.S. They don't bring their families and children over, it's mostly single men living in rural/jungle areas doing illegal mining. Their not in the country legally and I doubt a census worker goes to the jungle counting Brazilian miners.

Dude Brazilians in Suriname are not like Mexicans in the U.S. They don't bring their families and children over, it's mostly single men living in rural/jungle areas doing illegal mining. Their not in the country legally and I doubt a census worker goes to the jungle counting Brazilian miners.

hmm, yes they do bring their family over and make suriname their permanent home.
alex get over it . i'm not here to put brazilians down nor am i interested in a fight of any sort. but just don't argue about something you apparently know very little about. i could go ahead and post pictures of brazilians living in suriname and the pictures aren't flattering. you don't have 50 thousand brazilians working in gold mining. please use a little logic. how would that be possible on a population of 480 thousand. how would 50 thousand illigal miners working in suriname taking a way it's gold which is actually according to the surinamese government stealing. why don't you visit suriname and the poverty stricken neighborhood the iligal brazilian immigrants are living in and then you can tell me if they are wealthier than the average surinamese.
other then that just accept the facts, and loose those delusions.


ok here is an article of brazilian immigrants in suriname refusing to go back to brazil, but have warn their welcome in certain parts of the country.Brazilian riot victims choose Suriname over homeland
January 4, 2010 — Anouska Kock (editor)
José Luis Machado e Costa, Brazilian ambassador to Suriname, says that although Brazilian immigrants in Suriname are emotionally shaken by the Christmas violence in Albina, most have rejected the offer of a free return flight to Brazil. Last week, the Brazilian government made available an army airplane to accommodate nationals who wished to leave Suriname.
The owner of a gold buying company in Albina assesses the damage to his business that was taken up in the riots of December 25th. (photo: dWT)

Newspaper The Times of Suriname quotes the Brazilian ambassador stating that so far, only thirty-two Brazilians have been flown back to Brazil. Machado e Costa also claims that the majority of these people did not come from Albina and have not experience the violence that occurred there. “We did airlift three seriously wounded victims”, the ambassador says. “They will be treated further in our own country. However, I suspect that most of the folks on the plane accepted the gesture not as a chance to bid farewell to Suriname, but merely as a cheap opportunity to spend the holidays at home”.
At the time of the December 25 riots, Albina counted roughly 100 illegal Brazilians who made their living through enterprises in or related to gold mining. All immigrants have been evacuated to the capital town of Paramaribo, where they now await further measures by the Surinamese government to ensure their safety in the future. Despite actions of the Surinamese governments to combat illegal residency among the thousands of Brazilians who have entered the country in the past decade, lured by the gold in the rainforest, the Brazilians feel safe in the knowledge that such actions, and ensuing deportations, are only undertaken sporadically.

The violent attack by Suriname Maroons onto Brazilians in Albina has caused an uproar in Suriname politics, with members of parliament urging the government to better regulate justice, immigration and gold mining throughout the interior parts of the country.

In spite of all, the Albina incident has not scarred Suriname’s international image as a country of racial tolerance. Robert Reid, U.S. travel editor for Lonely Planet and reporting for CNN on the New Year’s celebrations in Paramaribo last week, said that “One thing Paramaribo has going for itself is that it is culturally and religiously diverse, and inhabitants get along famously. Many languages besides the official Dutch are spoken, as people from all over the world have come to live here. A big selling point is that it’s a place without tension, despite cultural differences.”below is a link to the source of teh article
http://abengcentral.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/brazilian-riot-victims-choose-suriname-over-homeland/

hmm, yes they do bring their family over and make suriname their permanent home.
alex get over it . i'm not here to put brazilians down nor am i interested in a fight of any sort. but just don't argue about something you apparently know very little about. i could go ahead and post pictures of brazilians living in suriname and the pictures aren't flattering. you don't have 50 thousand brazilians working in gold mining. please use a little logic. how would that be possible on a population of 480 thousand. how would 50 thousand illigal miners working in suriname taking a way it's gold which is actually according to the surinamese government stealing. why don't you visit suriname and the poverty stricken neighborhood the iligal brazilian immigrants are living in and then you can tell me if they are wealthier than the average surinamese.
other then that just accept the facts, and loose those delusions.


ok here is an article of brazilian immigrants in suriname refusing to go back to brazil, but have warn their welcome in certain parts of the country.Brazilian riot victims choose Suriname over homeland
January 4, 2010 — Anouska Kock (editor)
José Luis Machado e Costa, Brazilian ambassador to Suriname, says that although Brazilian immigrants in Suriname are emotionally shaken by the Christmas violence in Albina, most have rejected the offer of a free return flight to Brazil. Last week, the Brazilian government made available an army airplane to accommodate nationals who wished to leave Suriname.
The owner of a gold buying company in Albina assesses the damage to his business that was taken up in the riots of December 25th. (photo: dWT)

Newspaper The Times of Suriname quotes the Brazilian ambassador stating that so far, only thirty-two Brazilians have been flown back to Brazil. Machado e Costa also claims that the majority of these people did not come from Albina and have not experience the violence that occurred there. “We did airlift three seriously wounded victims”, the ambassador says. “They will be treated further in our own country. However, I suspect that most of the folks on the plane accepted the gesture not as a chance to bid farewell to Suriname, but merely as a cheap opportunity to spend the holidays at home”.
At the time of the December 25 riots, Albina counted roughly 100 illegal Brazilians who made their living through enterprises in or related to gold mining. All immigrants have been evacuated to the capital town of Paramaribo, where they now await further measures by the Surinamese government to ensure their safety in the future. Despite actions of the Surinamese governments to combat illegal residency among the thousands of Brazilians who have entered the country in the past decade, lured by the gold in the rainforest, the Brazilians feel safe in the knowledge that such actions, and ensuing deportations, are only undertaken sporadically.

The violent attack by Suriname Maroons onto Brazilians in Albina has caused an uproar in Suriname politics, with members of parliament urging the government to better regulate justice, immigration and gold mining throughout the interior parts of the country.

In spite of all, the Albina incident has not scarred Suriname’s international image as a country of racial tolerance. Robert Reid, U.S. travel editor for Lonely Planet and reporting for CNN on the New Year’s celebrations in Paramaribo last week, said that “One thing Paramaribo has going for itself is that it is culturally and religiously diverse, and inhabitants get along famously. Many languages besides the official Dutch are spoken, as people from all over the world have come to live here. A big selling point is that it’s a place without tension, despite cultural differences.”

below is a link to the source of teh article
http://abengcentral.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/brazilian-riot-victims-choose-suriname-over-homeland/

From the BBC
There are estimated to be up to 18,000 Brazilians living in Suriname, a former Dutch colony of some half a million people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8432254.stm

From the BBC
There are estimated to be up to 18,000 Brazilians living in Suriname, a former Dutch colony of some half a million people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8432254.stm

dude get over it. you are going to pick an article over the dozens of articles that all states that the brazilian population is over 40 thousand and more like in the 50000.00.
let me enlighten you. here below is a study from brandeis university which states that the brazilian popin suriname is more like 40000 or 10% of the surinamese poulation. a reputable institution instead of just ramblings from bbc
http://www.brandeis.edu/coexistence/linked%20documents/Country%20Studies/Suriname%20FINAL.pdf
should i look for more.
whatever happened with your notion that brazilians do not come to suriname with there family. now even your own ambasador's help to fly them back to brazil was for the most part rejected by his own people.
which begs the question if it's so good to live in brazil as you said in your previous post of people in brazil living a picture postcard live, why are 50 thousand brazilians prefering to live in suriname even when in some parts of the country people riots to get them out which i don't support and i will always welcome the brazilians.
in the end i love brazil and i wish brazil the best. who knows, one day i may move to brazil, if sarah palin becomes president.

dude get over it. you are going to pick an article over the dozens of articles that all states that the brazilian population is over 40 thousand and more like in the 50000.00.
let me enlighten you. here below is a study from brandeis university which states that the brazilian popin suriname is more like 40000 or 10% of the surinamese poulation. a reputable institution instead of just ramblings from bbc
http://www.brandeis.edu/coexistence/linked%20documents/Country%20Studies/Suriname%20FINAL.pdf
should i look for more.
whatever happened with your notion that brazilians do not come to suriname with there family. now even your own ambasador's help to fly them back to brazil was for the most part rejected by his own people.
which begs the question if it's so good to live in brazil as you said in your previous post of people in brazil living a picture postcard live, why are 50 thousand brazilians prefering to live in suriname even when in some parts of the country people riots to get them out which i don't support and i will always welcome the brazilians.
in the end i love brazil and i wish brazil the best. who knows, one day i may move to brazil, if sarah palin becomes president.

Dude all your link says is that some estimates point to as high as 10% of the population. Let's assume it is that high, and these mostly illegal residents are counted the difference to bring down the HDI wouldn't be that big to make up for the difference in HDI.

Btw interesting GDP per capita figures (nominal) for Brazilian states for the year 2008. Would be better to see it for PPP. Note the regional differences. :ohno:

1º são paulo 583.0 bilhões 14,602
2º rio de janeiro 199.7 bilhões 13,154
3º minas gerais 164,4 bilhões 8,580
4º rio grande do sul 116.1 bilhões 10,976
5º paraná 104,3 bilhões 10,159
6º santa catarina 71,8 bilhões 11,620
7º bahia 70,7 bilhões 5,185
8º distrito federal 68,4 bilhões 27,698
9º goiás 43,8 bilhões 7,488
10º pernambuco 41,0 bilhões 4,800
11º espirito santo 40,7 bilhões 11,996
12º ceará 35,0 bilhões 4,278
13º pará 34,1 bilhões 4,580
14º mato grosso 30,9 bilhões 10,458
15º amazonas 27,3 bilhões 8,147
16º maranhão 22,4 bilhões 3,486
17º mato grosso do sul 19,3 bilhões 8,027
18º paraíba 15,0 bilhões 3,996
19º rio grande do norte 14,8 bilhões 4,741
20º sergipe 11,4 bilhões 5,598
21º alagoas 11,3 bilhões 3,652
22º rondônia 10,4 bilhões 6,772
23º piauí 9,8 bilhões 3,175
24º tocantins 7,6 bilhões 5,533
25º amapá 4,0 bilhões 6,167
26º acre 3,9 bilhões 5,515
27º roraima 2,9 bilhões 6,817

By Region
South East u$$ 988,0 bilhões u$$ 12,722
South $$ 292.1 bilhões u$$ 10,809
North East u$$ 231.3 bilhões u$$ 4,459
Center West u$$ 162,4 bilhões u$$ 11,873
North u$$ 90,0 bilhões u$$ 5,812

Dude all your link says is that some estimates point to as high as 10% of the population. Let's assume it is that high, and these mostly illegal residents are counted the difference to bring down the HDI wouldn't be that big to make up for the difference in HDI.

how do you know? you're ego is giving you problems?
i don't understand your contenuing argument. let it ago will you. the facts are the facts and they're not going to change just because you don't like them.

Btw interesting GDP per capita figures (nominal) for Brazilian states for the year 2008. Would be better to see it for PPP. Note the regional differences. :ohno:

1º são paulo 583.0 bilhões 14,602
2º rio de janeiro 199.7 bilhões 13,154
3º minas gerais 164,4 bilhões 8,580
4º rio grande do sul 116.1 bilhões 10,976
5º paraná 104,3 bilhões 10,159
6º santa catarina 71,8 bilhões 11,620
7º bahia 70,7 bilhões 5,185
8º distrito federal 68,4 bilhões 27,698
9º goiás 43,8 bilhões 7,488
10º pernambuco 41,0 bilhões 4,800
11º espirito santo 40,7 bilhões 11,996
12º ceará 35,0 bilhões 4,278
13º pará 34,1 bilhões 4,580
14º mato grosso 30,9 bilhões 10,458
15º amazonas 27,3 bilhões 8,147
16º maranhão 22,4 bilhões 3,486
17º mato grosso do sul 19,3 bilhões 8,027
18º paraíba 15,0 bilhões 3,996
19º rio grande do norte 14,8 bilhões 4,741
20º sergipe 11,4 bilhões 5,598
21º alagoas 11,3 bilhões 3,652
22º rondônia 10,4 bilhões 6,772
23º piauí 9,8 bilhões 3,175
24º tocantins 7,6 bilhões 5,533
25º amapá 4,0 bilhões 6,167
26º acre 3,9 bilhões 5,515
27º roraima 2,9 bilhões 6,817

By Region
South East u$$ 988,0 bilhões u$$ 12,722
South $$ 292.1 bilhões u$$ 10,809
North East u$$ 231.3 bilhões u$$ 4,459
Center West u$$ 162,4 bilhões u$$ 11,873
North u$$ 90,0 bilhões u$$ 5,812

great i'm so glad for brazil. heep, heep, hoeray.
now lets hope you keep up the good work. brazil has always been one of my favorite countries. what's your point by the way.
gdp per capita is for the average brazilian for the entire country.
unless your planning on breaking up brazil in to little countries.

good for brazil. finally brazil is taking its rightfull place on the global stage.

10k gdp is next to nothing... I don't see how that has much, if anything, to do with the 'global stage'.

10k gdp is next to nothing... I don't see how that has much, if anything, to do with the 'global stage'.

With 190 million people it gives you an economy the size of Italy and right behind the U.K.

Class A/B is middle to upper class. Class C is a combination of middle and lower middle class, while D is working class and poor and E poor. The countries shown are the six most populous countries in the region (excluding Venezuela) to show that most of it's citizens are now "middle class".

Class AB (Alta)

Chile 22%
México 16%
Argentina 16%
Brasil 14%
Perú 13%
Colombia 13%

Clase C (Media)

Argentina 55%
Chile 55%
México 52%
Brasil 50%
Colombia 48%
Perú 44%

Clase D (Media Baja)

Perú 24%
Colombia 22%
México 21%
Brasil 20%
Argentina 17%
Chile 14%

Clase E (Baja)

Perú 19%
Colombia 17%
Brasil 16%
Argentina 12%
México 11%
Chile 9%

En Millones

Clase AB (alta)

Brasil 27
México 17
Colombia 6
Argentina 6
Perú 4
Chile 4

Clase C (media)

Brasil 96
México 56
Colombia 24
Argentina 22
Perú 13
Chile 9

Clase D (media baja)

Brasil 38
México 23
Colombia 11
Argentina 7
Perú 7
Chile 2

Clase E (baja)

Brasil 31
México 12
Colombia 8
Perú 6
Argentina 5
Chile 2

Clases ABC

Millones de personas (% población)
Brasil 123 (64%)
México 73 (68%)
Colombia 30 (61%)
Argentina 28 (71%)
Perú 17 (58%)
Chile 13 (77%)

Btw if it seems like I'm flooding the thread with stats on Latin America just tell me to stop, I've just been finding interesting info on the other forums.