Straightforwardly, my point is that one of the former korea's dynasties "Koguryu" is plundered by Chinese government. National identity, to use a cliche, is a heart of nations. Without its existence, no country would progress and nor the people of it.

Recently, Chinese government has altered korea's history in its websites, arguing that "Koguryu" was a part of grand china's(大中國)history. With no evidence showing, China is arrogantly and ignorantly speaking vacant bull shits that only will trigger controversy.(They already have) China should apologize for being so dumb.

In international community, no nation can survive by itself and can only survive by collaboration and joint endeavor. Team players will survive whereas a single player will fall. And that is the principle of diplomacy in our era. I sincerely hope that China be a big land with big people, not a big land with small people.

I challenge any Koreans to prove just how is Koguryo "Korean". List legit reasons and show evidence for support.

Not that I want to take sides, but please do heed what Pangu says. This isnt a place solely for comments like:
With no evidence showing, China is arrogantly and ignorantly speaking vacant bull shits that only will trigger controversy.(They already have) China should apologize for being so dumb.

http://imgnews.naver.com/image/020/2004/08/11/200408110468.jpg
This is a picture from a China's high school history textbook....The map of 隋 dynasty is shown and Baekjae, Shilla and Koguryo is shown in black color.

And this picture is from China's junior high school history text book....
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2004/08/11/kp1_2040811s1460.jpg

One of China's big internet search engine and website Sina? and Sohu? introduces Korea's 3 dynasty as Baekjae, Shilla and KOGURYO.
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/055/2004/08/10/20040810064128.jpg
From Sina...
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2004/08/10/kp1_2040809s0943.jpg

This is a map made by the Chinese around the time of 元 dynasty. This map not only shows the little minor kingdoms of China but also shows the Korean penninsula. At Korean penninsula the name Baekjae, Shilla and Koryo (Chinese called Koguryo, Koryo :) )
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/056/2004/08/10/20040810_newsplaza_80.jpg
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/022/2004/08/09/03-01.jpg

These aren't exactly evidence. These are nothing but claims. In fact, those don't prove anything but the very existance of Koguryo (which isn't up for debate) and the fact that China "AT ONE POINT" thought Koguryo was "Korean" much like "AT ONE POINT", Europeans thought the Native-Americans were Indians.

I'm looking for what aspects of the Koguryo government, culture, language... etc. is considered "Korean" and you define something being "Korean".

---

BTW, on a different, but related note. Why is Korea's "Three Kingdom" period called "THREE" Kingdoms when there were four if you include Koguryo? (Paekche, Shilla, Kaya, and Koguryo)

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~skim32/IFSM403/pix/map4.gif

http://imgnews.naver.com/image/020/2004/08/11/200408110468.jpg
This is a picture from a China's high school history textbook....The map of 隋 dynasty is shown and Baekjae, Shilla and Koguryo is shown in black color.

China's high school history textbook? Tell me when did Chinese school textbook use Korean characters?

Didn't you see Korean characters in your so-claimed "China's high school history textbook" map?

Anyway, Koguryo, Paekche, Shilla are different kingdoms at that time (1000 years ago) and most part of Koguryo in current China. And in Yuan dynasty, there were no Koguryo, Koguryo was annihilated by Tang dynasty, Corea is not Koguryo. So your Yuan dynastry map is not valid to support your claim. China never claimed Corea history is part of Chinese history.

China's high school history textbook? Tell me when did Chinese school textbook use Korean characters?

@Snake
Is there software called "Adobe Photoshop" in China? Ya we used that in Korea and changed the Chinese character in the map to Korean so people can see it better. (Chinese characters are confusing and hard)

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~skim32/IFSM403/pix/map4.gif

Kaya was annihilated by Shilla later so in Korea's history the actual 3 kingdom period consisted Baekjae, Shilla and Koguryo. :)

(Chinese called Koguryo, Koryo :) )


You are forcing your opinion onto Chinese again. For Chinese, Koguryo （高勾丽)and Koryo（高丽） were two different nations, Koguryo was annihilated by Tang dynasty 1000 years ago, and not existed after that. Koryo was another kingdom built after Koguryo died, similar name but not same.

In Koguryo history most of territory was in NE China, with part of in current N. Korea. Although during Koguryo's 1000(?) years history, its territory changed quite large. Later built Koryo's territory was never be in current NE China.

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~skim32/IFSM403/pix/map4.gif

Kaya was annihilated by Shilla later so in Korea's history the actual 3 kingdom period consisted Baekjae, Shilla and Koguryo. :)

Yeah, that's your Korea‘s history point of view. Don't force onto Chinese histrory.

Koguryo was a kingdom died 1000 (1500 years not memorize quite clear now)years ago. Its territory in highest was mostly in NE China, with quite a bit in current N. Korea. That's why unesco accepted both China and N.Korea to claim Koguryo as both two nations(China and N. Korea) heritage

China
http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=1135
The site includes archaeological remains of three cities and 40 tombs: Wunu Mountain City, Guonei City and Wandu Mountain City, 14 tombs are imperial, 26 of nobles. All belong to the Koguryo culture, named after the dynasty that ruled over parts of northern China and the northern half of the Korean Peninsula from 37 BC to 668 AD. Wunu Mountain City is only partly excavated. Guonei City, within the modern city of Ji’an, played the role of a supporting capital after the main Koguryo capital moved to Pyongyang. Wandu Mountain City, one of the capitals of the Koguryo Kingdom, contains many vestiges including a large palace and 37 tombs. Some of the tombs have elaborate ceilings, designed to roof wide spaces without columns and carry the heavy load of a stone or earth tumulus (mound) which was placed above them.

North Korea
http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=1091
Brief Description
The site includes several groups and individual tombs - totalling about 30 individual graves - from the later period of the Koguryo Kingdom, one of the strongest kingdoms in northeast China and half of the Korean peninsula between the 3rd century BC and 7th century AD. The tombs, many with beautiful wall paintings, are almost the only remains of this culture. Only about 90 out of more than 10,000 Koguryo tombs discovered in China and Korea so far, have wall paintings. Almost half of these tombs are located on this site and they are thought to have been made for the burial of kings, members of the royal family and the aristocracy. These paintings offer a unique testimony to daily life of this period.

You are forcing your opinion onto Chinese again. For Chinese, Koguryo （高勾丽)and Koryo（高丽） were two different nations, Koguryo was annihilated by Tang dynasty 1000 years ago, and not existed after that. Koryo was another kingdom built after Koguryo died, similar name but not same.

In Koguryo history most of territory was in NE China, with part of in current N. Korea. Although during Koguryo's 1000(?) years history, its territory changed quite large. Later built Koryo's territory was never be in current NE China.

Koryo and Koguryo are, or at least were, exactly the same name. At the beginning, both names indicated the older kingdom (better known as Koguryo), but when General Wang established a kingdom in 918 and claimed to be the successor of the old kingdom, people started to use the name Koguryo for the old kingdom and Koryo for the new kingdom so that they can distinguish the two. Today, they are different terms.

Also, Parhae, a kingdom that existed in Manchuria from the 7th century to 10th century, claimed to be the successor of Koguryo. Even though the kingdom was built on what is now "Chinese" soil, it is considered as a Korean kingdom since its founders were Koreans from Koguryo which was fallen by the Tang Dynasty and Shilla Kingdom shortly before Parhae was established.

Paekje, one of the three kingdoms of Korea (along with Shilla and Koguryo), also derives from Koguryo. It was founded by two princes who escaped from Koguryo due to a political reason concerning the succession of the throne. They shared the same language (which later developed into Korean when Shilla unified the three), culture and customs.

China's high school history textbook? Tell me when did Chinese school textbook use Korean characters?

Didn't you see Korean characters in your so-claimed "China's high school history textbook" map?

Anyway, Koguryo, Paekche, Shilla are different kingdoms at that time (1000 years ago) and most part of Koguryo in current China. And in Yuan dynasty, there were no Koguryo, Koguryo was annihilated by Tang dynasty, Corea is not Koguryo. So your Yuan dynastry map is not valid to support your claim. China never claimed Corea history is part of Chinese history.

隨 is Sui, not Yuan. :)

About those Korean characters, obviously they have been photoshopped so that the Korean people can read them.

I of course know Sui not Yuan.

I mean this post "This is a map made by the Chinese around the time of 元 dynasty. This map not only shows the little minor kingdoms of China but also shows the Korean penninsula. At Korean penninsula the name Baekjae, Shilla and Koryo (Chinese called Koguryo, Koryo )"

Yeah, in Sui Dynasty, there are 高勾丽， 百济， 新罗， So what?
And obviously the shadowed part in that map were also photoshopped by your Korean to let your Korean people think that they were one nation. That was a faked "Chinese textbook map". There was no shadow part!

-Anyway, Koguryo, Paekche, Shilla are different kingdoms at that time (1000 years ago)
-How about 魏晉南北朝 era? Aren't 魏,吳,蜀 China's former kingdoms? According to your claim, they are not. Although Koguryo, Paekche, Shilla were different kingdoms at once, they shared the same roots and united by Shilla with help of Dang dynasty. And later transformed into Koryo dynasty. That patterns adjacents to China's 魏晉南北朝 era.

-Koguryo was annihilated by Tang dynasty
-Koguryo was annihilated by Shilla dynasty with help of Tang on a premise that some of Koguryo's territory will be shared after defeating Koguryo.

-Corea is not Koguryo.
-then China also is not 魏,吳,and nor 蜀.

-China never claimed Corea history is part of Chinese history.
-I wanted find more evidence but China has erased all the information on korea's history in its websites(www.fmprc.gov.cn). (http://www.pressian.com/scripts/section/article.asp?article_num=30040714131400&s_menu=%BC%BC%B0%E8) According to this, China included Shilla and Bakjae but secluded Koguryo from korea's history. After Korean government invoked this alteration, China deletes entire passage. China did claimed Corea history is part of Chinese history by secluding Koguryo from korea. If Koguryo is not korea's then whose is it? Chinese? The answer must be no.

I of course know Sui not Yuan.

Yeah, in Sui Dynasty, there are 高勾丽， 百济， 新罗， So what?
And obviously the shadowed part in that map were also photoshopped by your Korean to let your Korean people think that they were one nation. That was a faked "Chinese textbook map". There was no shadow part!

-Unlike Chinese or Japanese, we are not immature enough to make fake maps or imitated text books to change history. Snake, you kept asking for evidence, what evidence do you have to prove that it is a faked Chinese textbook map? Do you even have any evidence to show that we are wrongly accusing China? Like I said, we are not immature. And we don't let our emotions bypass reasons. Think about that.

Clearly there is no need to call anyone immature in this discussion. Let this continue as a factual discussion please.

Ok these topic are kinda complicated. From what I've learned in the States Koguryo was part of the Korean history because they were founded by the Ural Altaic language group which later lay the foundations of Modern Korean Language. Chinese on the other hand are from the Sino-Tibetan Language group. Thus Koguryo was founded by Koreans and not Chinese, but because Koguryo boundaries are also deep into Chinese territory they are also considered part of Chinese history. Let me use Manchuria as an example. Manchuria was a seperate Kingdom until they invaded China and founded the Qing Dynasty. Manchurians had their seperate history and identity but ever since they founded the Qing Dynasty their history became part of China's and after Manchuria integrated with China, China's territory now extends into the area of past Koguryo kingdom, so in other words most of Koguryo is now inside China and thus its history is also part of the Chinese.

I wonder, how could ANYONE know what type of language was spoken in Koguryo as this was way before the invention of Hangul and during that time, Koguryo and the other Korean kingdoms used strictly Hanzi/Hanja. I'm sure there are no recordings of spoken language of Koguryo as any sound recording devices were not invented for another couple of hundreds of years.

In any case, spoken language is only a tiny element of a culture. There are many other parts. Language alone, there is the written language, which was CLEARLY Chinese and there are TONS of evidence. Also, other parts of a culture include clothing, values, government... etc. Now please, would any Korean like to tell me just how on these different aspects of Koguryo's culture is "Korean" and not Chinese? Did they eat kim chi? :rolleyes:

which was CLEARLY Chinese and there are TONS of evidence

Can you post that here? Then we could compare if it was Chinese or Korean.

Dear Pangu, according to your logic, then the ancient Japanese culture should be part of chinese culture, since they too, used Hanzi/Hanja in the past and are even using it as a part of their modern language! I'm not denying the influence of Chinese culture, and actually, most all of Asia back then used chinese symbols. Great job by the Chinese. But that those not mean that other civilizations did not have their own culture or identity. You have to admit that 'influence' is way different from 'colonization'. Ancient Koguryo was 'influenced' by chinese culture, not 'part' of Chinese. And the main capital of Koguryo was Pyoungyang for ages. The current capital of North Korea located on the 'heart' of the Korean peninsula. If China had completely conquered or destroyed Korea or all of it's culture and Korea was just a country of the far past, then the Korean history 'may' be a part of China. But Korea exists now standing equally as a 'country' with China. And you'll know that the origin of the Chinese and Korean is totally different. Yes we can not confirm exactly about which language was spoken back then, but we can be sure that they did not speak chinese. Sino-Tibetan and Ural Altaic is 'very' different in terms of grammer just like the difference between Chinese and Korean. And it was only awhile ago when the Chinese govenrment secluded Koguryo from Korean history. It was a 'basic' knowledge for ages.

In any case, spoken language is only a tiny element of a culture. There are many other parts. Language alone, there is the written language, which was CLEARLY Chinese and there are TONS of evidence. Also, other parts of a culture include clothing, values, government... etc. Now please, would any Korean like to tell me just how on these different aspects of Koguryo's culture is "Korean" and not Chinese? Did they eat kim chi? :rolleyes:

As a matter of fact, they did eat Kimchi. But this time without red pepper. (Red pepper wasn't introduced in Korea until the late 17th century) You can find evidences of that from a number of sources, both Chinese and Korean.

Also they spoke ancient Korean which can be proven by the PRESENCE of auxiliary subjects (i.e. 은, 는, 이, 가 ), a special type of grammer found ONLY in KOREAN, FINNISH, JAPANESE, and partially Tagalog and other Siberian languages. People from the Three Kingdoms (including Koguryo) left numerous writings like poems using the Chinese characters but with the Korean pronounciations and meanings. This was called Idu in Korean and it works exactly the same way as Pinyin does to Chinese, and in those documents, you can find auxiliary subjects EVERYWHERE.

Here's an example of Idu: 雲支河 <- this means "isn't it? (운지하 = ~아닌가 )" in ancient Korean. This phrase was found in a poem from Shilla, one of the three kingdoms. For those who don't know Chinese, let me tell you something. Yeah, they are words, but as a phrase, that makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE unless their pronounciations are converted into ancient Korean.

About "the written languge", that virtually means nothing. English, Spanish, French, German, Italian, and at least ten other major languages in Europe and the Americas use what we call the "Roman Alphabets", but it does not mean that all of them are ROMAN or ITALIAN. According to your logic, all of the Americas, Europe, Oceania, and even today's China (since you use Pinyin) should be considered as LATIN or ITALIAN history. Same with the territorial problem. Even though most of the Roman Empire's territories were OUTSIDE Italy, it does NOT mean that it should be considered as FRENCH, GERMAN, SPANISH, EGYPTIAN, etc.

Koguryo's culture and customs, as I have mentioned before, is the basis of the Modern Korean culture, including the language. Traditional clothings of Korea, Hanbok, date back to Koguryo's time. Their war techniques, especially shooting with a bow while riding a horse, were transmitted from generation to generation in Korea. The word 東夷, the word that was used to indicate ancient Koreans by the Chinese, shows that their culture was represented by using 弓 (bow).

For God's sake, saying that Koguryo is a part of Chinese history is same as saying that the Han Dynasty is a part of Korean history because its territorial boundaries reached as far as Pyongyang during its best days. To Korean people, Koguryo is more important than the Han Dynasty is to the Chinese. It's where their roots come from.

For God's sake, saying that Koguryo is a part of Chinese history is same as saying that the Han Dynasty is a part of Korean history because its territorial boundaries reached as far as Pyongyang during its best days. To Korean people, Koguryo is more important than the Han Dynasty is to the Chinese. It's where their roots come from.
That's just plain silly. Han dynasty's territory in modern day Korea was only a tiny part of its TOTAL territory. On the other hand, A great majority of Koguryo was inside modern day China. Let's assume that during the Han dynasty, China didn't expand into modern day Korea, Han dynasty wouldn't look that different. Now if the same is assumed about Koguryo, it would be nothing but a couple of small villages. I don't care how important Koguyro is to the Korean people for I am not Korean.

Being Chinese, I could care less if Koguryo is considered "Chinese" or "Korean". The only reason I even bother with this issue is because I'd like to know the truth.

Now I have the impression of the PRC government stating that Koguryo is "part of Chinese history" because it's within Chinese boundaries. Much like how Native-American history is considered "American history". Just because Koguryo is "part of Chinese history" it doesn't mean it can't be or isn't "part of Korean history".

In any case, can someone provide a SOLID and RELIABLE source which indicates the exact wording of the claim on Koguryo made by the PRC government? I am not interested in Korean heresays or rumors, thank you very much.

That's just plain silly. Han dynasty's territory in modern day Korea was only a tiny part of its TOTAL territory. On the other hand, A great majority of Koguryo was inside modern day China. Let's assume that during the Han dynasty, China didn't expand into modern day Korea, Han dynasty wouldn't look that different. Now if the same is assumed about Koguryo, it would be nothing but a couple of small villages. I don't care how important Koguyro is to the Korean people for I am not Korean.

Being Chinese, I could care less if Koguryo is considered "Chinese" or "Korean". The only reason I even bother with this issue is because I'd like to know the truth.

Now I have the impression of the PRC government stating that Koguryo is "part of Chinese history" because it's within Chinese boundaries. Much like how Native-American history is considered "American history". Just because Koguryo is "part of Chinese history" it doesn't mean it can't be or isn't "part of Korean history".

In any case, can someone provide a SOLID and RELIABLE source which indicates the exact wording of the claim on Koguryo made by the PRC government? I am not interested in Korean heresays or rumors, thank you very much.

Oh, forget about the Han Dynasty thing. I was merely pointing out the importance of Koguryo to Korean people. As you know, it is a fact that Koguryo is Korean in almost every regard except its territories which is mostly in China and Hanzi. (Even the term Koguryo is Korean. The Chinese term is Gaoguri.) So the Chinese government preserves the ruins and tombs now. Koreans don't mind that. But what Koreans are offended about is that the Chinese government is trying to make Koguryo a "Chinese" kingdom.

About the Chinese government's claim on Koguryo, just type 東北工程 in any search engine. It's a project supported by the Chinese government.

As you know, it is a fact that Koguryo is Korean in almost every regard except its territories which is mostly in China and Hanzi. (Even the term Koguryo is Korean. The Chinese term is Gaoguri.)
That's a poor excuse and I was expecting Koreans to use it sooner or later. Throughout the existance of Koguryo, the name has ALWAYS been written with Hanzi/Hanja as 高句麗 and since there was no sound recording device or Hangul during that time, I wonder how Koreans came to conclude to the proper and accurate pronounciation of the name.

A random example, today the Qin dynasty of China is pronounced "Qin" (Chin) but no one knows for sure how it was pronounced back then.

So the Chinese government preserves the ruins and tombs now. Koreans don't mind that. But what Koreans are offended about is that the Chinese government is trying to make Koguryo a "Chinese" kingdom.
Define the meaning of a "Chinese kingdom". There used to be several kingdoms within the boundaries of China, some "more Chinese" than other. For example, in southern China, there used to be the Dali Kingdom 大里國, Nanzhao Kingdom 南招國, Nanyue Kingdom 南越國 (which the Vietnamese claim as theirs, HA!)... etc. Now these kingdoms may be "less Chinese" than say the Wu, Shu, and Chu during the Three Kingdom Eras after the Han Dynasty, but does that mean they are not part of Chinese history or even "Chinese kingdoms"?

All Native-American tribes are considered part of American history and they were definitely "American tribes". How about natives of Australia, New Zealand... etc.?

Anyway, I have seen several Koreans make accusations against the PRC government regarding its claim on Koguryo, however, I have yet to see a single quote of the exact wordings of the PRC claim.

That's a poor excuse and I was expecting Koreans to use it sooner or later. Throughout the existance of Koguryo, the name has ALWAYS been written with Hanzi/Hanja as 高句麗 and since there was no sound recording device or Hangul during that time, I wonder how Koreans came to conclude to the proper and accurate pronounciation of the name.

That's right. But I have never said that it is a proper pronounciation. I was saying that the term is Korean but not Chinese.

Define the meaning of a "Chinese kingdom". There used to be several kingdoms within the boundaries of China, some "more Chinese" than other. For example, in southern China, there used to be the Dali Kingdom 大里國, Nanzhao Kingdom 南招國, Nanyue Kingdom 南越國 (which the Vietnamese claim as theirs, HA!)... etc. Now these kingdoms may be "less Chinese" than say the Wu, Shu, and Chu during the Three Kingdom Eras after the Han Dynasty, but does that mean they are not part of Chinese history or even "Chinese kingdoms"?

The problem is that Koguryo is not Chinese, it has nothing to do with China except for Hanzi/Hanja and its territories which lies beyond today's borders. (They were set by the Kando/Gando Treaty in 1909.) Btw, from what I've learned, 大里 and 南越國 were Vietnamese kingdoms.


All Native-American tribes are considered part of American history and they were definitely "American tribes". How about natives of Australia, New Zealand... etc.?

That's because almost all the Native Americans live in America/Canada today - they don't have their own nation. If they had one, their history would have been considered as their own, but not American.

What you're saying is the same as saying that the Roman Empire is a part of French and Spanish history because a huge portion of the empire was bulit on French/Spanish soil. (Spanish/French colonies were two of the most important and valuable assets to the Roman Empire.)


Anyway, I have seen several Koreans make accusations against the PRC government regarding its claim on Koguryo, however, I have yet to see a single quote of the exact wordings of the PRC claim.

I said go on to any search engine and type the word 東北工程. It's a project supported by the PRC government. A part of this project claims that Koguryo was a Chinese kingdom.

That's right. But I have never said that it is a proper pronounciation. I was saying that the term is Korean but not Chinese.
That's only because English adopted the Korean version rather than the Chinese one. In English, 中國 is "China", the English version of the name rather than the Chinese one, does that automatically mean China is part of England?

The problem is that Koguryo is not Chinese, it has nothing to do with China except for Hanzi/Hanja and its territories which lies beyond today's borders. (They were set by the Kando/Gando Treaty in 1909.)
I keep hearing Koreans claim that but I have yet to see anyone provide a list of cultural aspects of Koguryo which reflects "Korean-ness" rather than "Chinese-ness".

Btw, from what I've learned, 大里 and 南越國 were Vietnamese kingdoms.[q/uote]
That's hilarious. First define what makes a kingdom a "Vietnamese kingdom" then describe how 大里 and 南越國 fit those descriptions. I've never even heard of a Vietnamese claiming 大里, although I have heard them claiming 南越國 simply because the name is similar :rolleyes: But of course, the name 越南 came MUCH later than 南越.

[QUOTE=London_ON_Canada]That's because almost all the Native Americans live in America/Canada today - they don't have their own nation. If they had one, their history would have been considered as their own, but not American.
So a people having their own nations determines who their history belongs to? That's simply ridiculus.

What you're saying is the same as saying that the Roman Empire is a part of French and Spanish history because a huge portion of the empire was bulit on French/Spanish soil. (Spanish/French colonies were two of the most important and valuable assets to the Roman Empire.)
Yes.

The same goes to Ainu history and Japan.

I said go on to any search engine and type the word 東北工程. It's a project supported by the PRC government. A part of this project claims that Koguryo was a Chinese kingdom.
I am not interested in spending my time searching for evidence that back up claims made by YOU and YOUR PEOPLE.

When you submit a research paper, do you ask others to do your search?

That's only because English adopted the Korean version rather than the Chinese one. In English, 中國 is "China", the English version of the name rather than the Chinese one, does that automatically mean China is part of England?

That's because Koguryo is internationally recognized as a Korean kingdom rather than a Chinese kingdom. For instance, the Korean name for the Yalu River is Aprok River, but in English it's just Yalu because in that case, the Chinese name is more internationally recognized.


I keep hearing Koreans claim that but I have yet to see anyone provide a list of cultural aspects of Koguryo which reflects "Korean-ness" rather than "Chinese-ness".

I don't want a spend a whole lot of time on that, but here's one of them:

Kofun Culture (http://archaeology.about.com/library/glossary/bldef_koguryo.htm)


So a people having their own nations determines who their history belongs to? That's simply ridiculus.

How's that ridiculous? That's what everyone does (At least in this planet). For instance, if the American Revolution didn't occur or even failed, American history would be considered as a part of British or Canadian history by now. If Ainu weren't conquered by the Japanese and still have a nation in Hokkaido, its history wouldn't be considered as "Japanese" at all.


I am not interested in spending my time searching for evidence that back up claims made by YOU and YOUR PEOPLE.

When you submit a research paper, do you ask others to do your search?

I said that 東北工程 is a "Chinese" project supported by the Chinese government. The only reason why I asked you to research is simply because I can't read Chinese characters. I've got some articles about the project in Korean and I know what it is about, but there isn't a single English article about the project on the Internet. If I translate the Korean articles, you'll doubt about credibility. I wish I could read Chinese and post the articles in Chinese (since there isn't an English article), but unfortunately I can't read Chinese that well.

Anyways, this thread isn't going anywhere. I'll just stop posting in this thread.

Pangu, can I ask you what your problem is? Here is what the world sees when they see Korea and China. Are you ready? And Ill add that I am not Korea, I have no Korean blood in me. Heres what we see. China is a huge country. Sure. It is also a country where people live in unfathomable poverty, a country where there is zero respect for the rule of law and no respect for people's private rights. The people are powerless against a huge governmental machine. It is a country where HUNDREDS of millions of people live in absolute poverty with no access to clean water,medicine, etc. In other words, it is a backwards giant that serves ONE purpose for the West - as a huge market of consumers ready to devour any crap that the west has to offer it. Be it Big Macs to refridgerators to cars. China produces nothing of ots own. I dont count making shoes for Nike or Adidas as manufacturing. The world listens to China only because it fears its nuclear arsenal. China is feared, it is not respected. Now, South Korea may not be feared and it may not have as much influence because of that, but it is a country where personal rights, the rule of law and democracy are deeply ingrained. It is a country that provides a very good standard of living for its people, where poverty is not a national pandemic, where people have access to medical care and where the government doesnt repress personal freedoms and liberties. Korea is respected because it produces its own high quality products, instead of being a pool of cheap slave labour for American shoe companies.

Pangu, can I ask you what your problem is? Here is what the world sees when they see Korea and China. Are you ready? And Ill add that I am not Korea, I have no Korean blood in me. Heres what we see. China is a huge country. Sure. It is also a country where people live in unfathomable poverty, a country where there is zero respect for the rule of law and no respect for people's private rights. The people are powerless against a huge governmental machine. It is a country where HUNDREDS of millions of people live in absolute poverty with no access to clean water,medicine, etc. In other words, it is a backwards giant that serves ONE purpose for the West - as a huge market of consumers ready to devour any crap that the west has to offer it. Be it Big Macs to refridgerators to cars. China produces nothing of ots own. I dont count making shoes for Nike or Adidas as manufacturing. The world listens to China only because it fears its nuclear arsenal. China is feared, it is not respected. Now, South Korea may not be feared and it may not have as much influence because of that, but it is a country where personal rights, the rule of law and democracy are deeply ingrained. It is a country that provides a very good standard of living for its people, where poverty is not a national pandemic, where people have access to medical care and where the government doesnt repress personal freedoms and liberties. Korea is respected because it produces its own high quality products, instead of being a pool of cheap slave labour for American shoe companies.
Plz protect my ass from being laughed off! A puppet of the US is saying what? Freedom and rights, poverty? I'm going to doubt where u r from. When I was in the West, in the absence of Koreans, they were always the targets of tease, pretty much having no reasons, just because the westerners looked down upon ppl from the Orient. From my own little experience, during a specific period(several years ago), Koreans were the most unrespected ppl, again I'm not saying they were inferior, just because the Westerners looked down upon the Orientals for no reason, I wonder where have u been huh or ya r just blind to those facts, maybe irritating but live in existence, ya just live in ya wet dreams my dear? R ya lost?
I'm not goin' to discuss the history and I know less, but just look at the South Korean national flag, Bagua and Taiji? Very original. :toilet: Go clean up now! :rofl:

Look at the Chinese flag. A copy of the Soviet. CAN you get more original? China is a backwards giant that will not serve any other role for the west other than being a dumping market for western goods, a cheap pool of unskilled labour. The only thing giving China credibility is your nukes. China has not produced a single product or company that people would identify as Chinese. Can you point to something? Korea, may be a "puppet" of the US, but atleast it is a country where people dont die of starvation like in China. Westerners tend to look down at Asians, but its not Koreans, its Chinese who get the brunt of the ridicule. You can doubt where Im from, or you can look at my posting history and see for yourself. China is nothing but a huge dumping martket for western crap. Deal with it. It wont change until China exports more than just Nike shoes.

Look at the Chinese flag. A copy of the Soviet. CAN you get more original? China is a backwards giant that will not serve any other role for the west other than being a dumping market for western goods, a cheap pool of unskilled labour. The only thing giving China credibility is your nukes. China has not produced a single product or company that people would identify as Chinese. Can you point to something? Korea, may be a "puppet" of the US, but atleast it is a country where people dont die of starvation like in China. Westerners tend to look down at Asians, but its not Koreans, its Chinese who get the brunt of the ridicule. You can doubt where Im from, or you can look at my posting history and see for yourself. China is nothing but a huge dumping martket for western crap. Deal with it. It wont change until China exports more than just Nike shoes.
This comment is at least 10 years behind time.

I wonder how the Chinese flag is a replica of that of the Soviet Union, oddly enough.... Your repetitive words don't signify ur correctness either... How many ppl in the world know there's a Korea, no mentionin' South Korea, only the war lifted the popularity of Korea up, and that's because it was connected to the US, before the war Korea(both) was like non-existent to the outer world...
I don't know how rich South Korea is or how influential Korean culture is, all I know about is there r a few Korean trolls and other ppl pretendin' to be Koreans to incite hatred between the ppl, and that's no secret...

Ok, got it... now u r a Polish? I'll forgive u no matter what then. :lol:

Both have the same scheme. A red backgrouns with a design in the upper left corner. The design is different but the overall scheme is the same.

The war didnt lift Korea up. People dont know about the Korean war, its called the forgotten war by many people. What lifted Korea up is companies like Samsung becoming the 11th biggest electronics company in the world, manufacturing cars, ships etc. In this world, people respect countries that produce high end quality products such as cars, electronics, provide services such as banking etc. Who has a more powerful army, Switzerland or North Korea? Yet who is a pariah and who is seen as one of the gratest places to live?

This post was a reply to one of your trolls, Pangu.

Koreanczyk, you are a fucking racist. I don't know where you are from, less do I care about that. But I know for sure that you have suffered psychological diseases, or you always get bullied in the school, or you are a total looser and loner. Who said the west doesn't respect China? China is an important global player in the world now, not because it has nukes, but because of its economic significance. It has already surpasses us and some European countries in terms of importance. It's called "the manufacturer of the world", haven't you heard of that? If it disappears right now, the living standard of the rest of the world will decrease dramatically. Korea might be richer than China, but I certainly wouldn't call it any more culturally advanced. All we know here is that Korea is a bad replica of Japan, where everything is basically copied from Japan, badly, like fashion, music, anime, etc. I don't think you can call this "original" can you?

China sure is the manufacturer of the world. It offers a huge poolof cheapand unskilled labour. Thats nothing to be proud of.If it was to disappear, it would be replaced by India, Indonesia, Phillippines, Bangladesh, etc. Name any poor country with a large labour force that costs pennies. That doesnt make China respected. The nukes do. What makes China important is that it is a huge labour pool but also a huge consumer market. Its a wet dream for McDonalds to be able to sell Big Macs to a billion people. THATS what makes China important. It is not racism to point out that China does not produce anything on its own. It manufactures things on the behalf of foreign companies. What it doesnt have are its own companies. There are no significant Chinese electronics companies, there are no significant automotive companies, China doesnt build ships, it doesnt provice financial services. When was the last time you saw a Chinese car on the street of Toronto or went to buy a computer made by a Chinese company (not one that was mnufactured in a chinese factory on behalf od IBM or Ford) It does nothing but manufacture running shoes for Nike and make refrigerators, etc. The political importance of China stems from its military might based on nukes and a large standing army. It is more "important" than Switzerland or Austria or Italy, yet one would be hard pressed to choose China as a place to live and work if one could choose the former countries.

Secondly,there is the issue of China being a country that human rights forgot,or rather a country that has forgotten the concept of human rights. Political crackdowns, lack of basic liberties, no democracy or freedom of speech, Tianamen Square, the horrendous partnership with the murderous Kim regime in North Korea where they basically keep a murderer in power by supplying him with what he needs to survive. The worst thing is sending refugees BACK to North Korea to face certain torture, slave labout and death. That is what China stands for, or rather the Chinese government.

Finally, keep the childish name calling to yourself.

HES EITHER FROM THE COLD WAR OR AN ASSHOLE

China sure is the manufacturer of the world. It offers a huge poolof cheapand unskilled labour. Thats nothing to be proud of.If it was to disappear, it would be replaced by India, Indonesia, Phillippines, Bangladesh, etc. Name any poor country with a large labour force that costs pennies. That doesnt make China respected. The nukes do. What makes China important is that it is a huge labour pool but also a huge consumer market. Its a wet dream for McDonalds to be able to sell Big Macs to a billion people. THATS what makes China important. It is not racism to point out that China does not produce anything on its own. It manufactures things on the behalf of foreign companies. What it doesnt have are its own companies. There are no significant Chinese electronics companies, there are no significant automotive companies, China doesnt build ships, it doesnt provice financial services. When was the last time you saw a Chinese car on the street of Toronto or went to buy a computer made by a Chinese company (not one that was mnufactured in a chinese factory on behalf od IBM or Ford) It does nothing but manufacture running shoes for Nike and make refrigerators, etc. The political importance of China stems from its military might based on nukes and a large standing army. It is more "important" than Switzerland or Austria or Italy, yet one would be hard pressed to choose China as a place to live and work if one could choose the former countries.

Secondly,there is the issue of China being a country that human rights forgot,or rather a country that has forgotten the concept of human rights. Political crackdowns, lack of basic liberties, no democracy or freedom of speech, Tianamen Square, the horrendous partnership with the murderous Kim regime in North Korea where they basically keep a murderer in power by supplying him with what he needs to survive. The worst thing is sending refugees BACK to North Korea to face certain torture, slave labout and death. That is what China stands for, or rather the Chinese government.

Finally, keep the childish name calling to yourself.

Name one country that hadn't experience these stuff during their stage of development. You think US, Japan, European countries cared so much about human rights during the same period? NO, it's all about money, and it hadn't changed a bit. The difference is, China is taking advantage of the already existing foreign capital, and is thus allowing us to make money off it while supplying it with newest technology, management skills, etc. This is no way to be shame of, because after all it's still a developing country. But the fact that a developing country has THIS much influence over our daily life is incredible, we go to store and buy most of the stuff that's labeled "made in China". No other country can easily replace it as you say, because labour force in China is not "unskilled" but rather "highly skilled" but cheap, that's why a lot of multinational companies go there. China has a literacy rate of 86% against India's 59.5%. People below poverty line in China is 10% against India's 25%. It has a Human Development Index of 0.745 agianst India's 0.595. And, as I have said, it is important NOT because of its nuclear capabilities but because of its economic significance. It won't take too long before you start to see sophisticated consumer electronics made by Chinese brands. They are already starting to dominated its domestic market, as soon as the domestic market is secured, they'll expand out very quickly because they are significantly cheaper than foreign brands.
BTW, I apologize for those swear words. But you are being an racist saying west look down on Chinese people.

I said that the west looks down on asian people as a criticism of the WEST not of Asia. I dont look down on Asian people, I married an Asian woman. The point is that some stupid troll from your forum is coming on the Korean forum and saying garbage about Korea. As you said, China is better, in comparison with India or Bangladeshand PERHAPS in the next 10 years we will see a Chinese brand that can rival Samsung. Perhaps. For now Korea is far better developed than China in just about everything, be it electronics, semi conductors, automobiles, ship building, etc.

I said that the west looks down on asian people as a criticism of the WEST not of Asia. I dont look down on Asian people, I married an Asian woman. The point is that some stupid troll from your forum is coming on the Korean forum and saying garbage about Korea. As you said, China is better, in comparison with India or Bangladeshand PERHAPS in the next 10 years we will see a Chinese brand that can rival Samsung. Perhaps. For now Korea is far better developed than China in just about everything, be it electronics, semi conductors, automobiles, ship building, etc.
So who is this "stupid troll?"

Come to think of it, why are you seemingly doing exactly the same thing as he then?

Huaiwei, you're a moderator and you're teasing a specific person at regular intervals? Shame on you. Don't abuse your status. At least be fair to everyone or if you don't want to play with it, then just close the thread. I'm pretty disappointed in you, especially after I thought you were the modest of all the moderators.


Regarding the Koguryo issue, I once had a heated discussion with one Chinese forumer at SSP. I had used lots of facts and evidence that was more than 5 pages long, that guy just gave up in the end after talking the same shit over and over. Anyways, you guys really need to read other sources rather than your own media. I know China is a communist regime and the Chinese are constantly brainwashed by the government and so can't have objective views on any subjects, but at least try the internet and look up what other ppl from other countries are saying. Try look what Russians, Japanese and Americans are saying regarding the issue of Koguryo....

Okay, back to the issue. Recently, the Chinese government redressed its dropping of the history of Koguryo and the entire ancient Korean history from the Website of its foreign ministry and further from their updated textbook, which means they are now, in part, acknowledging that they had been distoring the history of the Koguryo. So, case closed. ( No wonder, after you saw their ridiculous claims on other neighbouring countries. I laughed my ass off when they said that "Genghis Khan" was Chinese". :D )

http://news.naver.com/news/read.php?mode=LSD&office_id=079&article_id=0000009580&section_id=100&menu_id=100

Name one country that hadn't experience these stuff during their stage of development.....

cicarra, I think you're the one who's overreacting. I knew you're a Chinese descendant living in Canada but...What Koreanczyk was saying was that China is still largely dependent on other countries, which is more than true. I don't see any racist argument in that.

Do you know how many percentages of China's GDP does the foreign companies contribute? Sure, China's rapidly growing their economy but how were they able to do it? On their own? Hell, no.

Just for the reference, according to China's 2003 inward-FDI, Korea was the largest investor to China in the world.( After disregarding HK and British Virgin Islands, both of them are being used for tax and inverse trade purpose. ) Or what about all those fancy skyscrapers you guys posting? All those fancy sksycrapers were built and invested by the world-wide American and Japanese companies.

China still needs to go a long way to be respected from other nations. I reckon it's too early and premature to boast yourself. ;)

cicarra, I think you're the one who's overreacting. I knew you're a Chinese descendant living in Canada but...What Koreanczyk was saying was that China is still largely dependent on other countries, which is more than true. I don't see any racist argument in that.

Do you know how many percentages of China's GDP does the foreign companies contribute? Sure, China's rapidly growing their economy but how were they able to do it? On their own? Hell, no.

Just for the reference, according to China's 2003 inward-FDI, Korea was the largest investor to China in the world.( After disregarding HK and British Virgin Islands, both of them are being used for tax and inverse trade purpose. ) Or what about all those fancy skyscrapers you guys posting? All those fancy sksycrapers were built and invested by the world-wide American and Japanese companies.

China still needs to go a long way to be respected from other nations. I reckon it's too early and premature to boast yourself. ;)
Plasma, You are so hilarious about Korea, yet, to some extent , i forgive you ignorant to china as well. The best words are , I confirm , South korea in economy largely relies on china instead of China . First of all, in place of US,China is the biggest business partner and the biggest export destinationof South Korean . Going back to check, when China decided to slow down the economy growth, at the same day, South korea stock market steeply fell. It is a big joke that South Korea is the biggest investor in china except HK and Virgin Islands. I totally lost the interest in talking this again and again, but for an ignorant korean coming to China forum and talking shit. I have to tell you, Plasma, in all FDI,HK investment contains 60% in mainland china, Both HK and vigin island have a lot of capitals actually curculate from China' state-owned capitals to those places and be invested back for escaping tax. Many Chinese companies seem to be foreign companies but actually still are chinese companies also for the purpose of exempted tax rate. Aside from HK ,till the end of 2003, US is the seconde biggest investor in china, Japan is the third, well, Taiwan is the fourth. Surely, you are hilarious at South Korea, but facing the fact, you had better check why LG microwave plant moved out of China, and Why Haydai closed one plant in china recently; why South Korean tele-com facilities exported to china decreased by 40%; Shanghai auto bought a South Korean auto company about 50% stock shares. Still, in place of South Korean Kenmore, China Haier recorded the second biggest amount of sales in Domestic electric appliances of the world next to whirlpool. In China, South Korean products are hard to compete with indigeneous chinese products. This is the fact!
Maybe you want to say, in China, the most foreign people are South Korean. Probably you are right, a lot of Koreans live in China. Each year, there are 800 south koreans studying in our university , and In Wangjing district, some south koreans gave birth to their next generations in Beijing and traffic signs display in Billingual languages ,Chinese and korean language instead Chinese and English .Believe or not, come to see in person.
:crazy:

China sure is the manufacturer of the world. It offers a huge poolof cheapand unskilled labour. Thats nothing to be proud of.If it was to disappear, it would be replaced by India, Indonesia, Phillippines, Bangladesh, etc. .
When China was an isolated country , those countries haven't played the important role like today's China in the world, so your logic doesn't make sense.
Huge unskilled labors in China are doing great job in contribution to the development of China, and they are the most adorable people in China .
I am proud of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It manufactures things on the behalf of foreign companies. What it doesnt have are its own companies. There are no significant Chinese electronics companies, there are no significant automotive companies, China doesnt build ships, it doesnt provice financial services. When was the last time you saw a Chinese car on the street of Toronto or went to buy a computer made by a Chinese company (not one that was mnufactured in a chinese factory on behalf od IBM or Ford) It does nothing but manufacture running shoes for Nike and make refrigerators, etc. .

Gree, Haier, CHUNLAN, CHANG'AN AUTO, Jili Auto, Shanghai No,1 Ship company, Bank of China, ZTE, Huawei, TCL, KONGKA,Glanze, Legend,Changhong, China unicom, China petro, ......The world may not have to use Chinese brand, but surely 1.2 billion Chinese and a big country have more than 10 times size of South Korea are embracing Chinese brand. It is enough!~
Well,including you, the very interesting characteristics for a group of china-bashers are that you always like to compare China with those over 20 year-developed countries, but rarely compare China with some democratical countries having similiar GDP per capita as China. maybe Communist country should be compared with the best performer otherwise, how could you convince other countries how bad China as a communist country is?
The political importance of China stems from its military might based on nukes and a large standing army. It is more "important" than Switzerland or Austria or Italy, yet one would be hard pressed to choose China as a place to live and work if one could choose the former countries.
.
Trust me, If having a choice between your country or south korea and Switzerland or Austria or Italy, 90% of people choose the latter. You haven't put your country into the list.

Secondly,there is the issue of China being a country that human rights forgot,or rather a country that has forgotten the concept of human rights. Political crackdowns, lack of basic liberties, no democracy or freedom of speech, Tianamen Square, the horrendous partnership with the murderous Kim regime in North Korea where they basically keep a murderer in power by supplying him with what he needs to survive. The worst thing is sending refugees BACK to North Korea to face certain torture, slave labout and death. That is what China stands for, or rather the Chinese government.
Finally, keep the childish name calling to yourself.

I suggest you post this into Falungong forum , or either write a persuasive paper to China government. You are the most welcome one!!!!!!!!!!!
:deadthrea

I have to tell you, Plasma, in all FDI,HK investment contains 60% in mainland china, Both HK and vigin island have a lot of capitals actually curculated from China' state-owned capitals to those places and came investment back for escaping tax.

Yep. That's what I exactly said in my previous post. Because HK and virgin Isaldns were used as a "tax haven" purpose, those countries should be disregarded. You're saying the same thing as me..good for ya.



Aside from HK ,till the end of 2003, US is the seconde biggest investor in china, Japan is the third, well, Taiwan is the fourth.

"And South Korea was the fifth before they took over US, Japan and Taiwan. In the first half of the year 2004, Korea was the largest investor to China with 54.4% increase totalling 3.52 Billion dollars."

http://news.naver.com/news/read.php?mode=LSD&office_id=029&article_id=0000078147&section_id=105&menu_id=105


You had better to check why LG microwave plant moved out of China, and Why Haydai closed one plant in china recently; why South Korean tele-com facilities exported to china decrease by 40%;Yeah, Shanghai auto bought a South Korean auto company about 50% stock shares. Still, China Haier in replace of South Korean Kenmore is the second biggest sales in Domestic electric appliances of the world next to whirlpool. In China, South Korean products are hard to compete with indigeneous chinese products. This is the fact!

Some companies are having a rough time and some companies are having a good time. Can you also give examples of other 2,888 Korean companies who are doing business in China?

Just have a look at the fact how many Chinese are employed by the Korean companies. You can't ignore the fact that Korean companies are largely contributing to China's employment rate. Same thing goes for the Japanese and American companies as well.



In our university,each year, there are 800 south koreans studying in China, and In Wangjing district, some south koreans gave birth of their next generation in Beijing. Believe or not, come to China to see in person.

Hardly surprisng. Koreans are known to have too much entusiasm when it comes to studying. They have high purchasing power. Since there is a fierce competition in the Korean society, everyone has to have "something" others don't have, even if that means getting a degree in poor countries like China. :D

More than 40,000 Korean students are currently studying in the USA, making Korea world's no.2 overseas students sender in the USA. Korean overseas students also make the largest majority in the countries like Australia, Japan, Canada, New Zealand and South East Asia.

China still needs to go a long way to be respected from other nations. I reckon it's too early and premature to boast yourself.

LMAO,'TO BE' RESPECTED?

WHO GIVES YOU A SHIT?

"And South Korea was the fifth before they took over US, Japan and Taiwan. In the first half of the year 2004, Korea was the largest investor to China with 54.4% increase totalling 3.52 Billion dollars."

http://news.naver.com/news/read.php?mode=LSD&office_id=029&article_id=0000078147&section_id=105&menu_id=105 .

I am surprised at the news. Singly,For meeting the demand of some luxurious cars, Shanghai GM further invested $3 billion from profit earned in China at the beginning of this year. Let alone other US investors!


Some companies are having a rough time and some companies are having a good time. Can you also give examples of other 2,888 Korean companies who are doing business in China?
Just have a look at the fact how many Chinese are employed by the Korean companies. You can't ignore the fact that Korean companies are largely contributing to China's employment rate. Same thing goes for the Japanese and American companies as well.

Free meal donators seem not to exist in countries. Also China outward investment reached $33.2billion.Investment overseas has become a major way for Chinese enterprises to participate in global economic. Same thing is also for other countries, outward investment also is a means transferring economic recession while saving natural resources. Considering US and Japan don't invest to other countries, probably those two countries won't be that rich.
Investors and being invested mutually benefit.


Hardly surprisng. Koreans are known to have too much entusiasm when it comes to studying. They have high purchasing power. One in four people in Korea have at least studied abroad in their lifetime. Since there is a fierce competition in the Korean society, everyone has to have "something" others don't have, even if that means getting a degree in poor countries like China. :D ;)
More than 40,000 Korean students are currently studying in the USA, making Korea world's no.2 overseas students sender in the USA. Korean overseas students also make a large majority in the countries like Australia, Japan, Canada, New Zealand and South East Asia.
Well, i am not surprised. South Korea and China in culture have many similiar parts. All value education and family as important. In Canada, Australia, Newzealand, the most international students and immigrants are Chinese. In US and UK , i am sure Chinese international students are not less than other Asian countries.

Huaiwei, you're a moderator and you're teasing a specific person at regular intervals? Shame on you. Don't abuse your status. At least be fair to everyone or if you don't want to play with it, then just close the thread. I'm pretty disappointed in you, especially after I thought you were the modest of all the moderators.
Where is your evidence of my abuse and impartiality, just because I expressed my disagreement with some posts made here?

Moderators are not entitled to participate in discussions and have a viewpoint of their own?

Where is your evidence of my abuse and impartiality, just because I expressed my disagreement with some posts made here?

Moderators are not entitled to participate in discussions and have a viewpoint of their own?

Yes, you can freely participate in any discussions you feel like. But sometimes you're required to make peace between two quarelling parties rather than joining the argument with other forumers.

That's why moderating is a hard job. Often times, you need to have a dignity within your posts so that other forumers can follow you. That's what moderators are there for. To look after other forumers...

Yes, you can freely participate in any discussions you feel like. But sometimes you're required to make peace between two quarelling parties rather than joining the argument with other forumers.

That's why moderating is a hard job. Often times, you need to have a dignity within your posts so that other forumers can follow you. That's what moderators are there for. To look after other forumers...
If you are familiar with my modding style, I tend to leave it up to folks to either come to an agreement, or agree to disagree...on their own. I believe our forumers here are matured enough to be able to handle sensitive issues with enough tact. (Of coz, this means immature forumers have already been banished long ago? :D )

I personally find this thread still bordering within the domains of the "acceptable"....yeah, until when people start to call each other names and all, then I will switch on the siren. I see that the main discussions in this thread are still predominantly factually based, so I shall leave it at that.

Of coz if any of you disagrees and thinks that this thread, or any other thread, should be canned, then feel free to PM me if you notice I am not canning it for any reason I may have. I will certainly see to your views and requests, without which, I simply have no idea how others interpret these threads.

"Gree, Haier, CHUNLAN, CHANG'AN AUTO, Jili Auto, Shanghai No,1 Ship company, Bank of China, ZTE, Huawei, TCL, KONGKA,Glanze, Legend,Changhong, China unicom, China petro, ......The world may not have to use Chinese brand, but surely 1.2 billion Chinese and a big country have more than 10 times size of South Korea are embracing Chinese brand. It is enough!~ "

Honestly, I doubt many people outside China knows these companies. Its also easy to dominate domestic markets. Domestic companies always dominate domestic markets, regardless of quality. As for shipbuilding, South Korean shipbuilding is a giant next to Chinese. China has about a 10% world market share on all types of ships whie Korea has a 30% share.


"I suggest you post this into Falungong forum , or either write a persuasive paper to China government. You are the most welcome one!!!!!!!!!!!"

You dont see that China has many problems with human rights? The Falagong is only the tip of the iceberg. The crack down on internet access of politically inconvenient sites or even foreign news sources is an example of what Im saying. But there are many many issues. Just read human rights sites and see for yourself. Though you probably will not be able to access them from within China.

"Gree, Haier, CHUNLAN, CHANG'AN AUTO, Jili Auto, Shanghai No,1 Ship company, Bank of China, ZTE, Huawei, TCL, KONGKA,Glanze, Legend,Changhong, China unicom, China petro, ......The world may not have to use Chinese brand, but surely 1.2 billion Chinese and a big country have more than 10 times size of South Korea are embracing Chinese brand. It is enough!~ "

Honestly, I doubt many people outside China knows these companies. Its also easy to dominate domestic markets. Domestic companies always dominate domestic markets, regardless of quality. As for shipbuilding, South Korean shipbuilding is a giant next to Chinese. China has about a 10% world market share on all types of ships whie Korea has a 30% share.


"I suggest you post this into Falungong forum , or either write a persuasive paper to China government. You are the most welcome one!!!!!!!!!!!"

You dont see that China has many problems with human rights? The Falagong is only the tip of the iceberg. The crack down on internet access of politically inconvenient sites or even foreign news sources is an example of what Im saying. But there are many many issues. Just read human rights sites and see for yourself. Though you probably will not be able to access them from within China.
Unwind ur tongue then argue, I know how Polish sounds like, :lol: but now u r speakin' English so spell it right: "Falun Gong".
I'm sorry but most Chinese r patriotic so whenever somebody speaks of bad about China they will jump out and speak out, no matter what a loser that "somebody" is, we r straightforward ppl who may sound offensive sometimes but we don't pretend to be polite, and I'm sure internet is all ur life and where all ur knowledge is from, cheers, move on with ur virtual life.

"Like this, Goguryo was a multi-ethnic nation that encompassed, within its broad territory, diverse natural environments and heterogeneous cultures co-existing. It was a unique experience in our history, with the nation possessing mainland, sea, and peninsula territories at the same time, while different cultures lived in harmony with one another.
Goguryo employed a number of ruling methods to control its vast territory and diverse races. In the territories that formed the core of the state, governors were dispatched and direct rule employed, but in those further territories where nomads and hunters lived, Goguryo's leaders employed indirect rule, guaranteeing their subjects' territories and ways of life in return for taxes and military manpower. Moreover, through the Jungwon Goguryo Monument [in lovely Ch'ungju] we can see how Goguryo exercised a strong influence on Shilla, which called Goguryo an "elder brother nation" despite Goguryo recognizing Shilla's independence. In this way, Goguryo exercised influence on a number of levels.
Goguryo, which ruled over vast territories and an ethnically and culturally diverse state, needed to find solutions to inter-ethnic tensions and cultural chaos. In order to do this, Goguryo tried to achieve cultural unification, against a backdrop centered on the "Dangun Myth" and the belief that Goguryo's rulers were "Descendants of Heaven," by actively accepting China's high culture.

Goguryo's founder, Ju-mong, was described as the "Son of Heaven" and "the Son of the Sun and Moon." Goguryo also stressed its lineage with the Old Chosun (Gojoseon) kingdom by describing Ju-mong as the son of Dangun. The fusion of Heaven and Earth, of Heaven and Water -- an element of the Dangun Myth -- is an important subject of the wall murals found in Goguryo tombs.

Also in the second year of King Sosurim, Buddhism was brought to Goguryo by the monk Sundo, from Qian Qin Dynasty China. Moreover, we can see that the influence of Taoism was also significant when we see how Taoist hermits and fairies are well represented on Goguryo tomb murals and the Tao Te Ching -- Taoism's basic text -- was widely read."

As you can see from above, China only influenced Goguryo. We have plenty of evidence which states that the history of Goguryo belongs to Korea. Yet, the Chinese side hasn't posted the "EVIDENCE" they have against Korea.

I hate Korea being viewed as a powerless nation, with the inability to defend our history and culture.
Cheers :cheers:

Unwind ur tongue then argue, I know how Polish sounds like, :lol: but now u r speakin' English so spell it right: "Falun Gong".
I'm sorry but most Chinese r patriotic so whenever somebody speaks of bad about China they will jump out and speak out, no matter what a loser that "somebody" is, we r straightforward ppl who may sound offensive sometimes but we don't pretend to be polite, and I'm sure internet is all ur life and where all ur knowledge is from, cheers, move on with ur virtual life.
Sorry but everything that Koreanczyk is saying is the truth. You guys defend yourselves by going off topic. The sheer size of Chinese members is the only thing that keeps the reputation of China from going downhill here, not facts, just because its the "majority".

For now Korea is far better developed than China in just about everything, be it electronics, semi conductors, automobiles, ship building, etc.

China still needs to go a long way to be respected from other nations. I reckon it's too early and premature to boast yourself. ;)

Yes money and human right matters...other than that people want to see a stable, productive China..

but do they(chinese goverment) care?

hmm...I think it's same the other way round...their culturally arrogant chineseness view of the world...their 5000 years of uniqueness language, poems, literatures, superior culture of zhou, Han, Tang etc dynasties..had developed a consistent and slowly unfolding culture, faithful throughout to its own particular virtues and vices..from diciples of Confucius to Shi Huandi...KMT(China)...PRC(China)..and among them many secretly think their highly sophisticated genetic intelligent race due to their Darwin’s theory of the survival of the fittest

Just look at any capitalism city in the world has more than 1 million chinese population...Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Kuala Lumpur and the west in San Fran, LA, Toronto etc... the most average top Scientists and Engineers in america are chinese from mainland and taiwan...Havard, MIT (made in taiwan).....it seems certain that China will be one of the dominant superpowers of the 21 century as in every of their new dynasty. The reversal of fortune, from the humiliations of the 19 century, will be sweet indeed.

Just hope this time they will learn to embrace the world ...not from their too China-centric world.

Sorry but everything that Koreanczyk is saying is the truth. You guys defend yourselves by going off topic. The sheer size of Chinese members is the only thing that keeps the reputation of China from going downhill here, not facts, just because its the "majority".
Ok linguist u can understand his Polish Korean English? I can't, what a shame.
"The sheer size of foreign members is the only thing that keeps the reputation of South Korea from going downhill here, not facts, just because its the "superiority".
K, seriously, facts? Koreancyk is an European(and the backward part of Europe) who knows nothing about the oriental culture and history.
He thinks money is more important than self-respect, this is typical western thinking. Ur Confucius father didn't teach u so. But well, now u r supporting his words as "facts", so I presume Koreans r goin' round and round the Western philosophy. I don't consider this kind of thing defending history and culture, since ya r ever-changin', I do find contradiction here.

Yes money and human right matters...other than that people want to see a stable, productive China..

but do they(chinese goverment) care?

hmm...I think it's same the other way round...their culturally arrogant chineseness view of the world...their 5000 years of uniqueness language, poems, literatures, superior culture of zhou, Han, Tang etc dynasties..had developed a consistent and slowly unfolding culture, faithful throughout to its own particular virtues and vices..from diciples of Confucius to Shi Huandi...KMT(China)...PRC(China)..and among them many secretly think their highly sophisticated genetic intelligent race due to their Darwin’s theory of the survival of the fittest

Just look at any capitalism city in the world has more than 1 million chinese population...Hong Kong, Singapore, Taipei, Kuala Lumpur and the west in San Fran, LA, Toronto etc... the most average top Scientists and Engineers in america are chinese from mainland and taiwan...Havard, MIT (made in taiwan).....it seems certain that China will be one of the dominant superpowers of the 21 century as in every of their new dynasty. The reversal of fortune, from the humiliations of the 19 century, will be sweet indeed.

Just hope this time they will learn to embrace the world ...not from their too China-centric world.

Well as a Chinese who's not in infantile autism and will be forever a Chinese I can assure u the Chinese ppl r not self-centric. They do keep their pride in heart they have the longest continuous history and one of the greatest ancient civilization, they developed the best techs and not using them to make weapons or other harmful stuff , they had strongest dynasties and had the highest GDPs...
Aside from the pride of their history, they do feel inferior at every turn. There r some of the smartest ppl of the world, but there r more average ones or subnormal ones. They aint goin' well with the west because the west world raped their homeland and is still trying to rape again. The west has no understanding towards China and just because the government is commie westerners would grasp every chance to demonize China. There r some problems, but the western medias just look at the negative things or even make up stories just to feed the curiosity of their ppl. Ppl r just like to hear the repetitive words.
It's not about Chinese not goin' to embrace the world, but rather the world rejects to accept this member. Before 1972 who dared to establish diplomatic relations with P.R.China? The history is written by the strongers. The west speaks of good about China because China is more and more an important market to them. If u sign a deal with the US today to buy their soybeans, the next day all the American newspapers would say we must reconsider the importance of China and give it more privileges, as simple as that.

Ok linguist u can understand his Polish Korean English? I can't, what a shame.
"The sheer size of foreign members is the only thing that keeps the reputation of South Korea from going downhill here, not facts, just because its the "superiority".
K, seriously, facts? Koreancyk is an European(and the backward part of Europe) who knows nothing about the oriental culture and history.
He thinks money is more important than self-respect, this is typical western thinking. Ur Confucius father didn't teach u so. But well, now u r supporting his words as "facts", so I presume Koreans r goin' round and round the Western philosophy. I don't consider this kind of thing defending history and culture, since ya r ever-changin', I do find contradiction here.
"I don't consider this kind of thing defending history and culture, since ya r ever-changin', I do find contradiction here"
I posted twice. The first one defended the actually topic of the story, which is the history of Guguryo. The second, I defended Koreancyk.

"The sheer size of foreign members is the only thing that keeps the reputation of South Korea from going downhill here, not facts, just because its the "superiority".
Um dude.. you changed everything around in that quote. Read carefully.

So then you disagree with this?:
"It manufactures things on the behalf of foreign companies. What it doesnt have are its own companies. There are no significant Chinese electronics companies, there are no significant automotive companies, China doesnt build ships, it doesnt provice financial services. When was the last time you saw a Chinese car on the street of Toronto or went to buy a computer made by a Chinese company (not one that was mnufactured in a chinese factory on behalf od IBM or Ford) It does nothing but manufacture running shoes for Nike and make refrigerators, etc. ."- Koreancyk

That is the truth. You might call it "western philosophy" because its mostly the western companies that make work in China, but the fact that China manufacters for other corporations is known throughout the World.

"I don't consider this kind of thing defending history and culture, since ya r ever-changin', I do find contradiction here"
I posted twice. The first one defended the actually topic of the story, which is the history of Guguryo. The second, I defended Koreancyk.

"The sheer size of foreign members is the only thing that keeps the reputation of South Korea from going downhill here, not facts, just because its the "superiority".
Um dude.. you changed everything around in that quote. Read carefully.

So then you disagree with this?:
"It manufactures things on the behalf of foreign companies. What it doesnt have are its own companies. There are no significant Chinese electronics companies, there are no significant automotive companies, China doesnt build ships, it doesnt provice financial services. When was the last time you saw a Chinese car on the street of Toronto or went to buy a computer made by a Chinese company (not one that was mnufactured in a chinese factory on behalf od IBM or Ford) It does nothing but manufacture running shoes for Nike and make refrigerators, etc. ."- Koreancyk

That is the truth. You might call it "western philosophy" because its mostly the western companies that make work in China, but the fact that China manufacters for other corporations is known throughout the World.
Haha lol, it indicates the farthest end u ppl's knowledge can reach?
Now just let us shrug all the other issues off, gettin' started to talk about business.
Since it's about China's and Korea's economies, let's have a compare.
Evidently these two countries aint of the same size, in terms of territory, population, u name it, so we need to make the things look proportionally.

"It manufactures things on the behalf of foreign companies. What it doesnt have are its own companies. "

There's no wrong to make things branded others' names, outsourcing and OEM r widespread and play a more and more important role in the business world, ppl just go in for maximal profits. Acer was just a foundry of IBM, how does it look like now? U can say it's a great and distinguished company just in such a short time because once u r into the business, u r better than none. I seriously suggest u to check the facts, definitely outsourcing business is spreading all over the world.
We do have our own companies, though with less popularity, but our companies r neat, unlike South Korean giants illegally loaning from national banks which generates harms to mid-sized and small businesses, we have prosperous mid-sized and small businesses which r at less risk levels yet r clean and flexible to fit into the market, with more profits of course. Sure there's monopoly and state-running companies r having problems, but those companies r into big businesses which mid-sized and small players can't butt in mostly, as the reforms in progress, things will change over all.

"There are no significant Chinese electronics companies, there are no significant automotive companies, China doesnt build ships, it doesnt provice financial services."
How is an electronics company defined? Like samsung or LG gettin' patterns from US companies to make home electronics to brand themselves hi-tech? Unlike that again, we have our own standards and make our own techs, we do have dumb companies with shameless boasts, but there r more companies who r developin' the real cores. We r silent but we r the real big giant. Do u know who has been making the most and one of the best harddisks with real cutting-edge techs? Do u know who have been settin' 3-G standards and testin' IPv6? Look at our encryption and decryption skills, we can crack aircrafts software encryption, awesome? This is just a little military trick, with this implication, just try to understand the civil techs, we make routers and exchangers just like u ppl reap potatoes. Wireless transport encryption standards have been made too, guess how is a standard worth comparing to real cheap manufacturing getting patterns from others? Hyundai? Yeah great, but as far as I know, there isn't one tiny weeny petite part of the memory techs Korean, plus I forget to tell South Korea doesn't have photoetching techniques to manufacture the chips, as for CNC machines, I don't wanna crush ur confidence and pride. Now who's the real cheap manufacturer?

Honestly we don't have an auto industry, but who said we had to be having one. We r not like Koreans buying patterns and techniques from their most hated Japanese and selling those manufactured(yeah this time u can proudly say with own-developed robotics, but wtf? I don't wanna make u crack up again) cars to the US with deficits just to wank the stupid nationalism. Our auto companies don't loan from the banks and can't fill the red up at least.

Our shipbuilding industry is only the world 3rd largest just in the infancy. But look at our warships, quite cool, top-notch masterpieces if I say.

What the heck r financial services? If talkin' about the monetary policies, it's because China's economy is not to the extent to loose them, macroscopical adjustments r in the most important position. But have u ever heard of the nameless city/region called Hong Kong? If this is too small a place I'm sorry I now tell u it is one of the finance centers of the world. Have u ever heard of Xinhua Finance? No? Market News International, one of the biggest market analysis companies? No? Well, I can tell u MNI is just a Xinhua Finance company, and I can tell u Xinhua Finance is Chinese, interesting now?

It seems to me that there aint Ford cars and Nike shoes made in South Korea, quite new to me huh. Many years ago somebody I came across someone who told me he had a lot Nike shoes made in South Korea to sell, real cheap, maybe fake ones? If they were fake ones they must be still fake ones from South Korea coz he exported them.

Ahhh so uninterestin'... I'm always fed up with this kind of offensive discussion but some ppl do like it, why the shit they feel so good about this. Although I can't completely understand what u two r talking about, I don't presume u can understand me either. So get off the internet and read a few books, then open ur eyes widely to enjoy the real world.

If u guys have more problems concerning China's recent development go to read:
http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php?showtopic=27425
Though I can't assure u the accuracy. Since I'm hell busy I won't put too much into this ya know...

Haha lol, it indicates the farthest end u ppl's knowledge can reach?
Now just let us shrug all the other issues off, gettin' started to talk about business.
Since it's about China's and Korea's economies, let's have a compare.
Evidently these two countries aint of the same size, in terms of territory, population, u name it, so we need to make the things look proportionally.

"It manufactures things on the behalf of foreign companies. What it doesnt have are its own companies. "

There's no wrong to make things branded others' names, outsourcing and OEM r widespread and play a more and more important role in the business world, ppl just go in for maximal profits. Acer was just a foundry of IBM, how does it look like now? U can say it's a great and distinguished company just in such a short time because once u r into the business, u r better than none. I seriously suggest u to check the facts, definitely outsourcing business is spreading all over the world.
We do have our own companies, though with less popularity, but our companies r neat, unlike South Korean giants illegally loaning from national banks which generates harms to mid-sized and small businesses, we have prosperous mid-sized and small businesses which r at less risk levels yet r clean and flexible to fit into the market, with more profits of course. Sure there's monopoly and state-running companies r having problems, but those companies r into big businesses which mid-sized and small players can't butt in mostly, as the reforms in progress, things will change over all.

"There are no significant Chinese electronics companies, there are no significant automotive companies, China doesnt build ships, it doesnt provice financial services."
How is an electronics company defined? Like samsung or LG gettin' patterns from US companies to make home electronics to brand themselves hi-tech? Unlike that again, we have our own standards and make our own techs, we do have dumb companies with shameless boasts, but there r more companies who r developin' the real cores. We r silent but we r the real big giant. Do u know who has been making the most and one of the best harddisks with real cutting-edge techs? Do u know who have been settin' 3-G standards and testin' IPv6? Look at our encryption and decryption skills, we can crack aircrafts software encryption, awesome? This is just a little military trick, with this implication, just try to understand the civil techs, we make routers and exchangers just like u ppl reap potatoes. Wireless transport encryption standards have been made too, guess how is a standard worth comparing to real cheap manufacturing getting patterns from others? Samsung? Yeah great, but as far as I know, there isn't one tiny weeny petite part of the memory techs Korean, plus I forget to tell South Korea doesn't have photoetching techniques to manufacture the chips, as for CNC machines, I don't wanna crush ur confidence and pride. Now who's the real cheap manufacturer?

Honestly we don't have an auto industry, but who said we had to be having one. We r not like Koreans buying patterns and techniques from their most hated Japanese and selling those manufactured(yeah this time u can proudly say with own-developed robotics, but wtf? I don't wanna make u crack up again) cars to the US with deficits just to wank the stupid nationalism. Our auto companies don't loan from the banks and can't fill the red up at least.

Our shipbuilding industry is only the world 3rd largest just in the infancy. But look at our warships, quite cool, top-notch masterpieces if I say.

What the heck r financial services? If talkin' about the monetary policies, it's because China's economy is not to the extent to loose them, macroscopical adjustments r in the most important position. But have u ever heard of the nameless city/region called Hong Kong? If this is too small a place I'm sorry I now tell u it is one of the finance centers of the world. Have u ever heard of Xinhua Finance? No? Market News International, one of the biggest market analysis companies? No? Well, I can tell u MNI is just a Xinhua Finance company, and I can tell u Xinhua Finance is Chinese, interesting now?

It seems to me that there aint Ford cars and Nike shoes made in South Korea, quite new to me huh. Many years ago somebody I came across someone who told me he had a lot Nike shoes made in South Korea to sell, real cheap, maybe fake ones? If they were fake ones they must be still fake ones from South Korea coz he exported them.

Ahhh so uninterestin'... I'm always fed up with this kind of offensive discussion but some ppl do like it, why the shit they feel so good about this. Although I can't completely understand what u two r talking about, I don't presume u can understand me either. So get off the internet and read a few books, then open ur eyes widely to enjoy the real world.
Sorry but did I say that manufacturing for other corporations was bad? All I said was that it was the TRUTH. I just said that because you guys were argueing about that FACT which is that China manufactures for other companies.
Sorry but I only read the first sentence in your post. I don't have anything against China, I'm just trying to defend Korea's culture in Goguryo and Koreacynk's comments.

Sorry but did I say that manufacturing for other corporations was bad? All I said was that it was the TRUTH. I just said that because you guys were argueing about that FACT which is that China manufactures for other companies.
Sorry but I only read the first sentence in your post. I don't have anything against China, I'm just trying to defend Korea's culture in Goguryo and Koreacynk's comments.
I have nothing against Korean culture and South Korea's great achievements, but Koreacynk's comments were sheer ignorance, if u know what he's talkin'bout.

Sorry but I only read the first sentence in your post. I don't have anything against China, I'm just trying to defend Korea's culture in Goguryo and Koreacynk's comments.

As a Chinese myself, I am very happy to see another successful Asian country as Korea. As a matter of fact I would like to see all Asian countries to succeed and cooperate more in all fields. Korea and China share a very long history and in many aspects a similar culture.

Concerning Kogoryo, I am not an expert and I doubt any of us knows all the facts beside the one either government employ to justify their agenda. We also have to consider that Kogoryo existed a long time ago and there is not much left to veryfy either claim. This is a matter for the historian and archeologists.

I am not sure whether any of you know Karl der Grosse/ Charlemagne/ Carlus Magnus. All three names belong to one person in three different languages. His Empire streched from Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy to France. Now, can any of this modern nations claim Karl der Grosse/ Charlemagne/ Carlus Magnus to be their historic figure and nobody else?

Karl der Grosse/ Charlemagne/ Carlus Magnus was a Frank (a Germanic tribe), in Germany we have a region called Franconia (Franken) and you are right, France (Frankreich), Germany's neighbour got her name from the Franks as well.

What conclusion and parallels can we draw from this comparison? I see know problem to share a common past and live in harmony in the presence.

Facts here:

1. Koguryo was a multi-ethnic state ruled by proto-Koreans. I say proto-Korean because "Korea" as a single national identity did not truly emerge until the Koryo Dynasty. (Reference: John Duncan, UCLA) By that same logic, there was no such thing as "China" until the Qin Dynasty.

2. Even still, the proto-Koreans of Ko-Chosun, Puyo, Silla, Kaya, Paekje, Koguryo and Wa (yes, Japan too) spoke very similar Altaic languages. To this day, Korean and Japanese share the same grammatical structure and about 30% of the vocabulary. Although modern Korean imports 70% of its vocabulary with Chinese, it is a completely different language. Japanese is probably closest to proto-Korean in both vocabulary and grammar. If you want any further evidence, consider ancient place names. Sorabul, Gomnarutuh, Asadal, Nara. Can you find the one that's "Japanese?" Anyway, the point's that these proto-Koreans - including the ones in Puyo and Koguryo - had a cohesive culture and language.

3. There is a book by Jared Diamond titled Guns, Germs and Steel. There is a chapter on ancient China. His hypothesis: China was originally populated by many "minority groups" with the northern "Han" occupying the Yellow River valley. Eventually, they conquered what is called "China" today less Tibet, Manchuria and Inner Mongolia (Xinjiang has been under Chinese rule off and on). What happened to these "minority groups?" Either they were exterminated, assimilated or driven off as the Han Chinese successively mastered agriculture, bronze and then steel.

4. There's some evidence suggesting that the Koreans were among the last groups to struggle with the Han Chinese for a place on the continent proper. However, the proto-Koreans were driven off into Manchuria when the Han Chinese mastered steel first (while the proto-Koreans were still using bronze). Old Chosun (Ko-Chosun) in southern Manchuria as of 500 BC represents the last remnants of these people. Sometime soon afterwards, the proto-Koreans mastered steel as well, and the retreat stopped. This is entirely consistent with Diamond's hypothesis.

Conclusions from these facts: the "Koreans" at one time occupied Northern China, Manchuria and Korea proper. They were kicked off this land as the Han Chinese grew in power, but retained their lives and their identities, unlike so many other groups that were exterminated or completely assimilated. I'll add one more piece of speculation. The Qin Emperor commenced in a massive book-burning campaign. Curiously, he also commenced on a massive nation-building campaign through the Great Wall. What kinds of histories did he burn? What information did he want to destroy? I wonder, but I guess that will always remain speculation.

But does this mean the Koreans can place a claim on northern China? Not at all. By that logic, the Indians and the Germans, both Aryan descendants, should both be claiming Azerbaijan...since they originated there. Or should everyone be claiming the Rift Valley in Africa? There's no logic here.

By that same logic, the Japanese should be claiming Korea! And they actually did during their occupation 1910-1945. Much Japanese nationalist scholarship focused on commonalities between Korea and Japan, but always distorted in favor of Japan (i.e. Japan conquered Korea rather than a Baekje expedition conquering Japan). After WWII, popular sentiments ran the other way. Academic research focused on Japan as a distinct entity, distinct people. Needless to say, I don't buy this logic at all.

But back to facts:

5. As of 1909, Korea claimed Kando, the eastern half of Manchuria. This claim was recognized by the Ching Dynasty during the 18th century. King Kojong actually assigned a "do-jisa" or a provincial governor to Kando.

6. In 1909, Japan had already taken control of Korea using the 1905 Protectorate Treaty. So, Japan traded Korea's rights to Kando in return for rail rights for all of Manchuria. This is well-documented, and there are other details I don't remember.

So, South Korea (but not North Korea, who renounced Kando since Kim Il Sung was installed with Sino-Russian help) still has an actual legal right to Kando under international law. Both Korea and China want to enhance their legitimacy over Kando, because they know a legal showdown is coming. Since Koguryo occupied that region for so long, whoever can claim Koguryo receives an advantage in the international courts. So, the entire Koguryo debate is actually about Kando. Both Korea and China are mobilizing armies of scholars and politicians for the day that this showdown comes. Especially since about 1/2 the population in Kando (present-day Yianbian) is Korean and 1/2 is Chinese.

7. Fact: all of this rhetoric about Koguryo is about a future land grab by both sides, when Korean reunification happens and Korea is in a position to press its rights.

8. Fact: Both Korea and China are trying to minimize this issue. Korea's invested far too much into China to make an enemy there, and China's benefitting too much from Korean trade, technology and investment, especially since domestic investment opportunities have died down.

9. Probability: Both the Korean and Chinese governments will do a good job minimizing the issue until Korean Reunification. At that point, the issue will go to the international courts. But China might not abide by a ruling in favor of Korea. Depends whether or not China's a democracy at that time.

10. Fact: Every single mainland Chinese person I met on a recent trip to China LOVES Koreans. In contrast, these same people expressed a vehement hate for the Japanese.

11. Opinion: Koreans should like the Chinese as much as the Chinese like them. It's just senseless to let something that won't come to a head for another 20 years to poison mutual relationships right now. And when that comes, just deal with it without jeopardizing cultural and economic exchanges. By that time, Japan-Korea-China will be a single free trade zone, the wealthiest in the world. No sense in letting something stupid like nationalistic hate poison that kind of potential.

12. But one last fact. The Military Museum in Beijing has every single military campaign in Chinese history - except three. China was defeated by Japan in 1895. China was defeated by Britain during the Opium Wars. China was also humiliated by Koguryo. The Sui Dynasty lost several hundred thousand troops out of a 500,000+ army that invaded Koguryo - and got crushed. The Sui Dynasty was actually overthrown in part because of its military failures. The Tang Dynasty eventually conquered Koguryo, but only with Silla's assistance, and after many failed campaigns.

Isn't it about time that the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans agree on a single, factually correct history just like the Europeans finally have? It's a disgrace to the entire region, and things like this should be corrected before they sprout up as nationalistic hate.

Anyway, hope both Korean and Chinese forumers don't take any of this the wrong way. The message is that nationalism is fine and dandy, but that nationalism-driven hate is just stupid. Let's all make a s%itload of money together...