http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6391633.stm

One dead in Cumbria train crash

Services between Preston and Carlisle were suspended
A passenger has died and dozens have been injured after a train derailed and some of its carriages slid down an embankment in Cumbria.
Ambulance crews said three were in a critical condition in hospital.

Nine carriages were left on their side after the crash at Grayrigg near Kendal, with passengers saying some were left "stuck up in the air".

The Virgin train, the 1715 from London Euston due to arrive at Glasgow Central at 2154 GMT, crashed at 2015 GMT.

Neither Virgin nor Network Rail have yet been able to say what might have caused the crash.

RAF helicopters, police and fire crews have been sent to the scene of collision, between Oxenholme and Tebay in the Lake District.

The train had about 180 people on board, the fire service said.

A spokesman for the University Hospitals Of Morecambe Bay NHS Trust said there had been one fatality.

He said five passengers with severe injuries had been taken to the Royal Lancaster Infirmary.

The Royal Preston Hospital said 12 passengers had so far been airlifted in. It has three casualties described as being in a "critical condition", and one serious.

All but one of the train's carriages had totally come off the tracks, a Cumbria Ambulance Service spokeswoman said.

Passengers coming off the train were assessed on the scene and any minor injuries would be treated there if possible, she added.

One of the passengers, BBC executive Caroline Thomson, said the train "did a sort of bump - and I was thinking don't worry this fine - but then the swaying became very dramatic.

"It suddenly appeared to hit something and then lurched very, very badly from side to side in a very dramatic way. This a very scary experience."

The Pendolino tilting trains have been introduced by Virgin over the last three years and have a top speed of 145 mph.

Network Rail said the line speed for the area where the crash took place was about 95 mph.

Virgin services between Preston and Carlisle have been suspended until further notice and alternative arrangements for customers, using road vehicles, are being made.

All Scotrail sleeper services to London have also been cancelled, with passengers being transferred to coach services.

Another passenger on the train, Ruth Colton, said: "I was just reading a book and it started to get really bumpy like we were being battered by heavy winds or something and then suddenly the carriage flipped over.

"We all had to climb out the top of one of ours... There's some carriages stuck up in the air and some are just lying on their side".

People worried about friends or relatives on the train are asked to ring a British Transport Police family liaison centre on 0800 40 50 40.

Passengers, meanwhile, are being advised to ring National Rail Enquiries on 08457 48 49 50 before starting journeys.

amazing that only one woman died. :uh:

CRH (China Railway High-speed) will be paying attention to this...they just received a batch of Pendolinos for some high-speed lines.

CRH (China Railway High-speed) will be paying attention to this...they just received a batch of Pendolinos for some high-speed lines.

There was nowt wrong with the train, the train saved peoples lives because it includes many safety features and the fact it was built to be strong and not to breakup. If it had been an older train some of them cars might be snapped in half. They reckon it was a set of faulty points so any train that went over them could have come off the tracks and not just the Pendolino. I don't think China have much to worry about.

There was nowt wrong with the train, the train saved peoples lives because it includes many safety features and the fact it was built to be strong and not to breakup. If it had been an older train some of them cars might be snapped in half. They reckon it was a set of faulty points so any train that went over them could have come off the tracks and not just the Pendolino. I don't think China have much to worry about.

There's a certain irony that whilst a lot of people in the UK would like to see trains run again by the government, in this particular instance the choices and business decisions made by Virgin i.e. choosing Pendolinos, saved people's lives against what seems to be an error of the state on maintaining the tracks...

There's a certain irony that whilst a lot of people in the UK would like to see trains run again by the government, in this particular instance the choices and business decisions made by Virgin i.e. choosing Pendolinos, saved people's lives against what seems to be an error of the state on maintaining the tracks...

Yep, it looks like Network Rail could be in alot of trouble.

Apparently not even a window smashed on the carrriages, they are insanely well-engineered by the look of it. Sad about the loss of a life, but in many ways the way that only one person died is fantastic considering how the carriages were tossed about. Older carriages would have crumpled and sheared, and we'd be looking at dozens dead.

Some images...

http://i.today.reuters.co.uk/misc/genImage.aspx?uri=2007-02-24T094327Z_01_L23375543_RTRUKOP_2_PICTURE0.jpg&resize=full

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/02/24/ncrash2.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/02/24/train/train5.jpg

http://images.scotsman.com/2007/02/25/25trab.jpg

Full marks to Virgin, those Pendolinos are excellent. With most other trains we'd be looking at photos of carrages in pieces and twisted metal. The passenger compartments of all those carrages are in one piece. Amazing. Network rail are arseholes though. I'm not sure if I would support the re-nationalisation of the railways if given the option, I don't think the government would be any better at running them than anyone else. I'd rather Virgin run them to be honest.

Full marks to Virgin, those Pendolinos are excellent. With most other trains we'd be looking at photos of carrages in pieces and twisted metal. The passenger compartments of all those carrages are in one piece. Amazing. Network rail are arseholes though. I'm not sure if I would support the re-nationalisation of the railways if given the option, I don't think the government would be any better at running them than anyone else. I'd rather Virgin run them to be honest.

I agree. Its lunacy the way two different bodies are responsible for running / maintaining trains and track. I too think fully nationalised railways would be prone to accidents, industrial strife and poor service... The answer for me is to hand the entire section of railway over to a company like Virgin, that is trains, tracks, signals and stations. I'd bet anything that if Branson was responsible for the maintenance of that set of points they'd be checked and rechecked daily... this wouldn't have happened simply because he would be accountable for the negligence and it would be too damaging to his business.

As it stands, he'll come out of this rightly saying "It wasn't my fault", the inquiry will point the finger at a bunch of sub-sub-sub contractors to Network Rail, they'll lose their contract, and that will be that. The negligent contractors will move to other contracts with other companies, and nothing will ever really change. Perhaps a lowly site manager might be hung out to dry, but until the chairmen of these contract firms end up in the dock for manslaughter then nobody within them will really give shit as long as they're reporting profits to their shareholders.

Some images...

http://i.today.reuters.co.uk/misc/genImage.aspx?uri=2007-02-24T094327Z_01_L23375543_RTRUKOP_2_PICTURE0.jpg&resize=full

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/02/24/ncrash2.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/02/24/train/train5.jpg

http://images.scotsman.com/2007/02/25/25trab.jpg

Scary....

I agree. Its lunacy the way two different bodies are responsible for running / maintaining trains and track. I too think fully nationalised railways would be prone to accidents, industrial strife and poor service... The answer for me is to hand the entire section of railway over to a company like Virgin, that is trains, tracks, signals and stations.
I agree completely. I used to think that the reason why we had so many problems with our railways was because they were privatised. I then found out when I went to Japan that most of their railways (except JR) are also privatised. If privatisation is to blame for the problems with Britain's railways, then why is it that Japan's railways, which are also largely private, are some of the safest, fastest and most efficient in the world. I looked into this and it seems that the reason is (at least partly) what you say above. Whole lines in Japan are privatised; that means trains, tracks, signals, stations (or areas of stations), the works. If something goes wrong with a line in Japan, there's no question about who's to blame. In addition, the different line operators are directly competing with each other on price, efficiancy, speed etc., their profits depend upon it. Ok, now there may also be cultural factors in Japan as well; cultures of efficiency, dedication to excellence, responsibility to passengers etc., something I wish we had more of. In addition, the national owned railways - JR, also directly compete with the private lines and therefore they have to operate efficiently as well, I think the only way in which JR have a monopoly is with the Shinkansen, which is excellent. It seems like most of their other lines are open to direct competition from private lines.

The difference between privatised Japanese railways and semi-privatised British railways couldn't be more significant. There's absolutely no incentive for Network Rail to be as efficient as JR because it's not open to competition and isn't going to lose profits and private operators only have contracts to run trains on publically owned tracks, therefore if something goes wrong blame gets shifted about and ultimately noone is held responsible. They have little incentive to improve service, invest in new rolling stock etc. Even when there are good operators who invest in new stock (ie. Virgin with the Voyagers and Pendolinos), Network Rail doesn't uphold it's end of the agreement and provide them with infrastructure that is capable of making use of the new rolling stock (if I remember correctly, the deal was that Virgin would invest in the Pendolinos which can run up to 140mph and Network Rail would upgrade the lines to be able to run them at 140mph by the time the new trains were brought into service. Virgin honoured the deal and now we have some very good trains, Network Rail didn't honour the deal and those great new trains are restricted to just 95mph and have to run on terrible tracks that aren't even electrified north of Carlisle).

I no longer blanketly blame privatisation for the state of our railways, instead I blame the fact that everything here is half arsed, the fact that we never do anything PROPERLY.

Rant over!

There was nowt wrong with the train, the train saved peoples lives because it includes many safety features and the fact it was built to be strong and not to breakup. If it had been an older train some of them cars might be snapped in half. They reckon it was a set of faulty points so any train that went over them could have come off the tracks and not just the Pendolino. I don't think China have much to worry about.

I'm not saying the train is to blame; I'm just stating an obvious implication.

I'm not too familiar with this train type; what makes it so "strong" as Sir Branson claims and as implied with these pictures?

I'm not saying the train is to blame; I'm just stating an obvious implication.

I'm not too familiar with this train type; what makes it so "strong" as Sir Branson claims and as implied with these pictures?
Am guessing the engineers who built them will have used stronger materials and also designed a stronger overall structure.

The Pendolino, designed as a low-maintenance high-speed train

PARIS, Feb 24, 2007 (AFP) - The train that derailed in Britain late Friday, killing one person and injuring five others, was a high-speed "Pendolino" model constructed by Alstom and operated by Virgin Trains.

The name is derived from the Italian word for pendulum and the train leans over to handle curves at high speeds to counteract the centrifugal effect of going round a corner, just like a motorbike.

The system allows for speeds of up to 35 percent higher than standard trains on railroad lines that only have to be slightly modified, according to Alstom.

To adapt standard rail lines to a tilting train, curved rails are given inclined planes and railway cars must be adapted.

When the train approaches a curve, a computer sends a command for it to lean over into the corner anywhere from four to eight degrees.

The most recent Pendolino trains have a maximum speed of 250 kilometres per hour. The latest version of France's TGV high-speed train is set to have an average speed of 320 kilometres per hour.

Though the decrease in travel time is less than with the TGV, the costs are also lower. The TGV requires new tracks that do not turn or require the train to slow down, often leading to expensive changes to infrastructure.

Alstom Ferroviaria, the world's leading manufacturer of high-speed trains based on tilting technology, became part of Alstom in 2000 following its purchase from Fiat.

Pendolino trains are manufactured at Alstom sites in Savigliano in Piedmont, Italy, and in Sesto San Giovanni, near Milan. The Pendolino was first put in service in Italy in 1988.

Companies such as Bombardier and Siemens also manufacture tilting trains.

Besides Italy and Britain, the trains also operate in Germany, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Slovenia, Spain, Portugal, the United States, Finland and Sweden.

Alstom's Pendolino train in the Czech Republic had several problems in 2006 following software issues.

A list of past train and subway crashes in Britain
By The Associated Press
23 February 2007

A list of some serious train accidents in Britain in recent years.

-- May 10, 2002: An express train derails at Potters Bar station, north of London, killing seven people and injuring 70.

-- Oct. 17, 2000: Four people die when an express train derails because of broken track near Hatfield, north of London.

-- Oct. 5, 1999: Two subway trains packed with commuters collide during rush hour at Ladbroke Grove, London, killing 31 people and injuring about 400 as carriages tumble off the tracks and burst into flames.

-- Sept. 19, 1997: A passenger train collides with a freight train at Southall station in west London, killing seven people and injuring about 150.

-- Dec. 12, 1988: Three subway trains crash during morning rush hour at Clapham Junction, south London, killing 35 people.

-- Feb. 28, 1975: A subway train crashes in a dead-end tunnel at Moorgate station in central London, killing 43 and injuring 74.

A list of past train and subway crashes in Britain
By The Associated Press
23 February 2007

A list of some serious train accidents in Britain in recent years.

-- May 10, 2002: An express train derails at Potters Bar station, north of London, killing seven people and injuring 70.

-- Oct. 17, 2000: Four people die when an express train derails because of broken track near Hatfield, north of London.

-- Oct. 5, 1999: Two subway trains packed with commuters collide during rush hour at Ladbroke Grove, London, killing 31 people and injuring about 400 as carriages tumble off the tracks and burst into flames.

-- Sept. 19, 1997: A passenger train collides with a freight train at Southall station in west London, killing seven people and injuring about 150.

-- Dec. 12, 1988: Three subway trains crash during morning rush hour at Clapham Junction, south London, killing 35 people.

-- Feb. 28, 1975: A subway train crashes in a dead-end tunnel at Moorgate station in central London, killing 43 and injuring 74.

^^
Slightly bizarre interpretation of what a 'subway' train is!!!

Ladbroke Grove was a HST crashing into a commuter service at 100mph, and Clapham Junction was a 3-train crash of commuter trains.

Strange not to include crashes as Great Heck (2001, 10 dead) and Ufton Nervet (2004, 7 dead)... Presumably because they were due to vehicles obstructing the track as opposed to industry negligence.

I'm not too familiar with this train type; what makes it so "strong" as Sir Branson claims and as implied with these pictures?

It said on the news (so this is prone to media inaccuracy) that each car is made from a single piece of extruded aluminium 'like a racecar' and the windows are laminated, plus there is a crumple zone to protect the driver during a collision.

I agree completely... ...Rant over!

I agree with your rant :)

You highlight a fundamental difference between our cultures which sadly means we'll probably never see the efficiency of Japanese railways here.

Victoria has recently introduced "fast regional rail". Not quite as fast as that.

In Victoria, in the last week, there've been 14 deaths ... from transport accidents. Population: about five million.

All on the road.

Network Rail didn't honour the deal and those great new trains are restricted to just 95mph and have to run on terrible tracks that aren't even electrified north of Carlisle).

The line north of Carlisle is electrified all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

I agree that we need proper private railways - experience we have shows that the less say Government has the better things work.

The line north of Carlisle is electrified all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Yes I thought that was a bit of an odd thing to say!

The line north of Carlisle is electrified all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

I agree that we need proper private railways - experience we have shows that the less say Government has the better things work.

Whoops, apologies, don't know where I got that from then. I was sure there's a major section of mainline railway on which the Pendolinos are supposed to run but need to be pulled by diesel locomotives a certain distance because it's not electrified... or did I dream that?!? LOL!

Anyway, that doesn't change any of my other arguments.

Whoops, apologies, don't know where I got that from then. I was sure there's a major section of mainline railway on which the Pendolinos are supposed to run but need to be pulled by diesel locomotives a certain distance because it's not electrified... or did I dream that?!? LOL!

Anyway, that doesn't change any of my other arguments.

You're thinking of the North Wales branch from Crewe to Holyhead. The loco hauled pendolinos I think are being replaced by super voyagers anyway at some point on this route.

Super voyagers? Is this a variation on the normal voyager?

Super voyagers? Is this a variation on the normal voyager?

I think the only difference is they can tilt - therefore they can operate at the same speed as pendonlinos on the wcml. Voyagers have the same ultimate top speed but have heavier speed restrictions round bends. I believe these are used on routes that the line signalling was not upgraded beyond the the scope of the track alignment (speedwise that is) where tilting would be pointless.

Ah right I see, thanks.

They started the clean up today. I could only find one image.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42630000/jpg/_42630743_grayrigg300.jpg

I think the only difference is they can tilt - therefore they can operate at the same speed as pendonlinos on the wcml. Voyagers have the same ultimate top speed but have heavier speed restrictions round bends. I believe these are used on routes that the line signalling was not upgraded beyond the the scope of the track alignment (speedwise that is) where tilting would be pointless.

Super Voyagers also have an extra coach - Voyager = 4 coaches, Super Voyager = 5

When i was working in Flint i saw Super Voyagers operating on the London to Hollyhead service but never saw any Diesel hauled Pendelinos. The journey time is really quick from Flint (NE Wales) to London, about 2 hours 20 minutes i think.

Super Voyagers also have an extra coach - Voyager = 4 coaches, Super Voyager = 5

When i was working in Flint i saw Super Voyagers operating on the London to Hollyhead service but never saw any Diesel hauled Pendelinos. The journey time is really quick from Flint (NE Wales) to London, about 2 hours 20 minutes i think.

I have to admit re. loco hauled pendos, I only got that info from someone else on the forum. A hauled pendo must be so much painfully slower than a super voyager on that route with heavy restrictions every mile and a half.

When I was in UK past october all on weekends all Pendulinos from Scotland to London were diesel haulde in a part of the route (and routed via Manchester at full speed of 95mph(the speed of the Virgin thunderbird locos)). :)


Oddly enough we were left strandled for half an hour in the same place of this accident because ... "kid's sighted playing on the rail tracks". :ohno:

Apr. 17, 2007 (China Knowledge) – China will sell three high-speed trains to Grand Central, a small British train operator, marking the first time China is supplying new trains to Europe since the country adopted foreign trade and economic reforms in 1978. According to the Financial Times Monday, the three high speed-trains will be used for a new rail line between London and Sunderland.

WOW, this is unexpected.

I live 10 miles from Sunderland, this is a shock, hope it comes off and we have some different train designs here!

http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/news.html?id=news040

Polaris unit:
http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/News/Images/New-stock.jpg

This is the closest Chinese model I can find to the diagrams above:
http://www.hkrs.org.hk/photogallery/chinarail/electrics/Dsc00216.jpg

http://www.railwaysofchina.com/images_trips/zhangmutou_17Dec06_1.jpg

The "Blue Arrow" in operation on the line from Shenzhen to Guangzhou. I've been on one and they seem nice enough. From the diagram this 'Polaris' trainset doesn't look quite the same though. I wonder if it's a new design based on the blue arrow one...

Details of the 'blue arrow' train are about two thirds of the way down this page:
http://www.railwaysofchina.com/dongchezu.htm

It's clear these polaris trains are exactly the same thing though even if they're based on this design, there are some notable differences.

There at least four different companies buiding trains in China which could be the Polaris. There a forum on the CRH trains which will show them

delivery in 2010, technology will not doublt be taken from a different sources.

The Blue Arrow doesn't exactly qualify as a highspeed train, its speed will never exceed 180km/h.

however technology from the Star of China will probobley be borrowed.

http://chinaneast.xinhuanet.com/jszb/2006-09/04/xinsrc_07090304155488429251.jpg

delivery in 2010, technology will not doublt be taken from a different sources.

The Blue Arrow doesn't exactly qualify as a highspeed train, its speed will never exceed 180km/h.

however technology from the Star of China will probobley be borrowed.
So it's not a design that's already in service. Any info on when they'll actually start building these 'Polaris' trainsets?

If this deal proceeds and implementation and running of these trains is successful, then I imagine it'll turn out to be a massive confidence boost for Chinese train technology getting a sale in the western market.

train is probabley on the paper already, if it goes on schedule it should go into testing sometime in early to mid 2009.

For it to be delivered on schedule, I don't believe the rollout is going to be anytime after october 2008.

After the embarrement that Changchun Train Works suffered in the past two days with the CRH5, I don't think anyone in China still have the guts to put any type of hardware into service without the most extensive testing.

After the embarrement that Changchun Train Works suffered in the past two days with the CRH5, I don't think anyone in China still have the guts to put any type of hardware into service without the most extensive testing.
Well if it means a higher quality product that can compete with Japanese, German and French technology on the grounds of cost effectiveness then that can only be a good thing. I imagine the Chinese product will be seen as the 'cheap option' compared with others for some time, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they're reliable.

What exactly happened with the CRH5 by the way?

train is probabley on the paper already, if it goes on schedule it should go into testing sometime in early to mid 2009.

For it to be delivered on schedule, I don't believe the rollout is going to be anytime after october 2008.

After the embarrement that Changchun Train Works suffered in the past two days with the CRH5, I don't think anyone in China still have the guts to put any type of hardware into service without the most extensive testing.

Please don't leave us hanging, What happened with the CRH5?

[QUOTE=Andrew;12769447]Well if it means a higher quality product that can compete with Japanese, German and French technology on the grounds of cost effectiveness then that can only be a good thing. I imagine the Chinese product will be seen as the 'cheap option' compared with others for some time, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they're reliable.

[QUOTE]

No French technology yet!
CRH1 is based on Swedish technology (now owned by Bombardier)
CRH2 is based on Japanese technology (Kawasaki)
CRH3 is based on German technology (Siemens)
CRH5 is based on Italian technology (Fiat, although now owned by Alstom)

The Grand Central Trains press annoucement is leaving out one important detail: are these trains diesel powered or dual powered electric and diesel? They cannot be pure electric trains as the route from Northallerton to Sunderland is not electrified but all the example shown on this thread are a electric trainsets.

Finding out details of chinese trains is very frustrating but I cannot find any evidence that the Chinese are running any DMU's faster than 180 km/h. Can anyone site an example which runs faster?

will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?

will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?

Interesting question!
It depends who who owns the Maglev line and who owns the branding. I rather suspect that the province owns the Maglev and the Railways Administration owns the CRH brand. If this is true, the Maglev is unlikely to branded CRH.

It said it is dual power, 140mph on the electric sections, dont know how fast on the Durham coast section though (but the line is old and crap there anyway).

will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?

I think Shanghai maglev is owned by a public-private cooperation, so no it is indepdent of other systems, CRH is owned by China Railways which is under the jursidiction of Ministry of Railways.

the CRH5 wasn't delivered early enough to leave adaquite time for proper testing before it was thrown into service for the China rail network's 6th general speed increase.

The trains malfucntioned on the first day of service and ended up breaking down while running on routes where a delay of as little as 1 minute is deemed unacceptable.

Trains D27/28 that runs from Harbin to Beijing had so many problems that they had to cancel the entire route without any definate date for its restart.

Out of the entire fleet of CRH5s, there wasn't a single train that didn't experience delays caused by malfunctions.

CRH1 and CRH2 were also apart of this speed increase, and they ran without much problems or delays.

The Grand Central Trains press annoucement is leaving out one important detail: are these trains diesel powered or dual powered electric and diesel? They cannot be pure electric trains as the route from Northallerton to Sunderland is not electrified but all the example shown on this thread are a electric trainsets.

Finding out details of chinese trains is very frustrating but I cannot find any evidence that the Chinese are running any DMU's faster than 180 km/h. Can anyone site an example which runs faster?

The anwser is no, China does not have any examples of Diesel Moving Units that travels faster than 180km/h.

Infact, these are the only two examples of DMUs that do run in China. And within the two, only the Shenzhou that runs the current Beijing - Tianjin rapid service should be considred as a true moving unit. The other one is basically two regular DF11 diesel locomotives reshaped to look like the end if a DMU and then stuck around a set of regular double decker carriages.

This is the Shenzhou, and it does look like the sketch for the Grand Central proposal

http://worldtrain.web.infoseek.co.jp/2006_0320_200124BA.jpg


Another thing though, China isn't exactly concentrating on its diesel powered passanger service. Half of China's passanger traffic and all of its highspeed passanger service are electric.

The most advanced diesel locomotive in service currently in China is the DF-11G, and it is used on overnight long distance non-stop express trains (what they call Z trains). And that is only rated at 170km/h.

If the Grand central train is going to be diesel, then it could present a problem. Mostly because China have never seen a real high speed DMU.

DF-11G

http://www.railwaysofchina.com/images_diesels/df11g_0041.jpg

^^
It probably is a diesel-electric multiple unit, so it won't be a problem for the Chinese to build something like this. They just have to build an electric powered train but to power it they have to put in a modern "low emission" diesel engine and a generator. They probably will buy such an engine from a dedicated European or American manufacturer, just like all the Western train manufacturers do.

The Chinese manufacturers have a lot riding on this. Not only for the potential to win new orders on mainline serivices but the market for local and rural trains could be huge.

Back in the 1980's a lot of rural services were replaced with 'Pacer' units which were noisey bus like DMU's typically made of of or two carraiges. A lot of these are approaching the end of their natural life. Several rail franchise owners said they might be interested in cheap chinese units that cost a third of European trains instead of relying on mix and match fleets made up of cascaded stock from busier routes.

If they do prove reliable then a new market could open up. Though we won't see whole sale replacement by one train type, as the train leasing companies will be intrested in maintaining residual values on their newer trains.

When I was reading about this last week, this article in the FT contained by far the most information. Unfortunately, it's now more than a week old, so is restricted to subscribers:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/53cce700-ea26-11db-91c7-000b5df10621,_i_rssPage=87ef6c98-3018-11da-ba9f-00000e2511c8,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F53cce700-ea26-11db-91c7-000b5df10621%2C_i_rssPage%3D87ef6c98-3018-11da-ba9f-00000e2511c8.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2F66.102.9.104%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcache%3AsfbqgfzP5SQJ%3Awww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F53cce700-ea26-11db-91c7-000b5df10621%2C_i_rssPage%3D87ef6c98-3018-11da-ba9f-00000e2511c8.html


It actually mentioned two Chinese companies who are involved, but I can't remember them, sorry! For me, the significant point was it said one company was to make the power cars, while the other would make the unpowered carriages in between. That means it'll be a true replacement for the High Speed Train (HST, Intercity 125) with locomotives at either end, and won't be a DMU, which to me means "diesel multiple unit", i.e. has a diesel engine in each carriage.

As a rail user, I hate DMUs. I'm lucky to live in an area served by HSTs to London and the Westcountry, and it makes me realise what a raw deal rail users are getting with the standard DMUs - noise, vibration, discomfort. Of course, all the government decision makers live in London or the south east, where they have nice, quiet, electric trains. I'm concerned that the so-called "Intercity Express Project" (IEP) the government recently tendered for as a replacement for the HST will end up as a DMU, so the announcement of the Chinese trains made me a bit more optimistic.

Other information I've gleaned about Grand Central's proposed trains is that they will be diesel powered (the line's not all electrified) but will have the "option" of upgrading to electric power later. The trains would be introduced from mid-2010, but only if Grand Central succeed in extending their five-year licence to run the service (which currently expires in 2011). Some sources also say the Chinese manufacturers have been keen to take a look at a HST, with the implication being that they plan to copy the design...

^^Yeah, I agree that the electric ones are more comfortable than the DMUs, but DMU's sound more like trains, do they? Come to that, I really miss the steam locomotives..

^^Yeah, I agree that the electric ones are more comfortable than the DMUs, but DMU's sound more like trains, do they? Come to that, I really miss the steam locomotives..
They never had separate steam locomotives under each carriage. In a stream train, you have one loco at the front. From inside the carriages, it's dead quiet and smooth. It's only outside you can hear the sound of the engine. Exactly the same is true of the diesel HSTs - on the platform, it sounds like a jet taking off. In the carriages, you don't hear a thing. By contrast DMUs don't capture the spirit of the stream train at all - the ambiance is more like travelling on a bus!

the CRH5 wasn't delivered early enough to leave adaquite time for proper testing before it was thrown into service for the China rail network's 6th general speed increase.

The trains malfucntioned on the first day of service and ended up breaking down while running on routes where a delay of as little as 1 minute is deemed unacceptable.

Trains D27/28 that runs from Harbin to Beijing had so many problems that they had to cancel the entire route without any definate date for its restart.

Out of the entire fleet of CRH5s, there wasn't a single train that didn't experience delays caused by malfunctions.

CRH1 and CRH2 were also apart of this speed increase, and they ran without much problems or delays.


Wow thats surprising didnt know Alstom trains could have so much problems.

They never had separate steam locomotives under each carriage. In a stream train, you have one loco at the front. From inside the carriages, it's dead quiet and smooth. It's only outside you can hear the sound of the engine. Exactly the same is true of the diesel HSTs - on the platform, it sounds like a jet taking off. In the carriages, you don't hear a thing. By contrast DMUs don't capture the spirit of the stream train at all - the ambiance is more like travelling on a bus!

Some steam "DMU" have been built, I think at least in Germany and Switzerland.

ive been on some DMU's that are really quiet, arriva trains have them running manchester to carmarthen, they used to be called commonwealth cruisers. Also, arent voyagers classed as dmu's? they're quiet too

Wow thats surprising didnt know Alstom trains could have so much problems.

These are not Alstom TGV's. They are modeled on the new ETR-600's which are the latest design from the Fiat railway division from Italy which was purchased by Alstom. They may infact be a victim of the Chinese desire to to meet a dead line for announcing the sixth railway speed up.

Bombardier and the Japanese met their deadlines, which are the same deadlines that Alstom had to meet.

The project wasn't forced up them, the companies bid for it and they all knew the deadlines. And the Chinese didn't ask for the latest design, the CRH1 is a very close cousin of the Bombardier Regina and the CRH2 basicaly a Japanese E2 with a Chinese style train hook and power collecter.

The only victums here are the poor guys in the Railway Department who are going to be sacked for something that is not really their fault.

Alstom (divisions) have had a history of missing their deadlines in China. One of Shanghai's subway lines (forgot which, there's only one that uses Alstom trains) was delayed opening for two years because the trains weren't ready.

And the Alstom subway trains running in China has always had problems with its doors, a problem that the CRH5 shared.

ive been on some DMU's that are really quiet, arriva trains have them running manchester to carmarthen, they used to be called commonwealth cruisers. Also, arent voyagers classed as dmu's? they're quiet too
Voyagers might be quieter than the grotty "Sprinter" type trains that are used on local routes, but they are still not nearly as comfortable as the HSTs. If you haven't been on a non-DMU train for years, you probably wouldn't even realise. When I first travelled from Leicester to London, I thought the train must be electric, as there was no engine revving as it pulled away. Later I realised there are no power lines!

Not only are DMUs noisier for passengers on-board, they are also noisy when they are standing at a platform. Often when I'm waiting for a train at Oxford station, a Voyager will stop there, and I can't hear the station announcements.* On the rare occasion I see an HST there, the engines are at the far ends of the platform, so aren't a problem.

* assuming the passenger information system is even working at Oxford, as more often than not it isn't

Well the Chinese now have bullet trains from the major producers of HSR now this will tell who has the best reliability.

Does Britain have any national producers of trainsets?

Or are France, Germany, Italy and Spain the main source of train service from the UK (especially French and German). :?

Bombardier and the Japanese met their deadlines, which are the same deadlines that Alstom had to meet.

The project wasn't forced up them, the companies bid for it and they all knew the deadlines. And the Chinese didn't ask for the latest design, the CRH1 is a very close cousin of the Bombardier Regina and the CRH2 basicaly a Japanese E2 with a Chinese style train hook and power collecter.

The only victums here are the poor guys in the Railway Department who are going to be sacked for something that is not really their fault.

Alstom (divisions) have had a history of missing their deadlines in China. One of Shanghai's subway lines (forgot which, there's only one that uses Alstom trains) was delayed opening for two years because the trains weren't ready.

And the Alstom subway trains running in China has always had problems with its doors, a problem that the CRH5 shared.

I didnt know Alstom trains had so many problems.Thanks for your infos.

One passenger recalled the CRH5 had multiple door failures, in one case the technician had to open the door from outside using the emergency release.

Last april I was in Canterbury (East Kent) and, as railway fan, I used the train to visit the surrounding areas, including London.

http://www.geocities.com/xpe_orrialdenagusia/oporrak.jpg
That's how I arrived to Canterbury from Donostia (Basque Country, Spain). I used Euskotren, SNCF, Paris Metro, Eurostar, and Southeastern Railways. 12 hours travelling and 75€ expended.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb15040707.jpg
Ashford International: change between Southern Railways, Eurostar and Southeastern Railways.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb15040708.jpg
Eurostar at Ashford International.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb15040706.jpg
Southern Railways at Ashford International.

Photos of Southeastern Railways:

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb10040701.jpg
Canterbury West station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb10040702.jpg
Canterbury-Whitstable railway line plaque at Canterbury West station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb10040703.jpg
Canterbury West signal box.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb15040710.jpg
Crab&Wincle plaque at Whitstable harbour.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb19040701.jpg
Whitstable station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb15040709.jpg
Train to Ramsgate in Whitstable.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb16040707.jpg
Biritish Railways signal at Herne Bay station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb13040705.jpg
Herne Bay station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb11040705.jpg
Victoria station (London).

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb14040706.jpg
Southeastern Railways train at Victoria station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb14040707.jpg
Southeastern Railways train at Victoria station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb19040704.jpg
Southeastern Railways train at Victoria station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb19040703.jpg
Canterbury East station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb19040702.jpg
Signal box at Canterbury East.

aZ1GX7_HSNE
Southeastern Railways train to Dover at Canterbury East.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb16040709.jpg
Station signal at Sandwich.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb16040708.jpg
Sandwich station.

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/trenreal/internacional/ingles/xb16040706.jpg
Ramsgate station.

My blog about railways (http://burdinbidean.blogspot.com).

:)

You spent only €75 to get from Spain to the UK by train? :eek:
I find that very very difficult to believe... For instance, the cheapest ticket price for the Eurostar between Paris and Ashford is about €60 and the cheapest tickets from Hendaye to Paris approximately €40. Don't you mean €175, that would seem more reasonable to believe...

You spent only €75 to get from Spain to the UK by train? :eek:
I find that very very difficult to believe... For instance, the cheapest ticket price for the Eurostar between Paris and Ashford is about €60 and the cheapest tickets from Hendaye to Paris approximately €40. Don't you mean €175, that would seem more reasonable to believe...

Hendaye to Paris: 15 €
Paris to Ashford International: 50 €
Local trains between Donostia and Hendaye, between Ashford and Canterbury, and Paris Metro ticket: 10 - 15 € +/-

http://www.geocities.com/xpe_orrialdenagusia/txartelak.JPG

Travel between Ashford International and Paris was more cheap (38,50€) and between Paris and Hendaye 20€. I booked one month and a half later.

That's really cheap for a journey like that!!
15€ for a ticket in a couchette between Hendaye and Paris!! That's really cheap!!

PS: Your blog seems to be very good, but it's kind of hard to read it in basque! :nuts:

That's really cheap for a journey like that!!
15€ for a ticket in a couchette between Hendaye and Paris!! That's really cheap!!

Yes, but let's talk on trains. I don't like to talk about money.

Nice pics, good to see a Southern train there as I usually travel on those
what was your general impression of the railways? :)

Nice pics, good to see a Southern train there as I usually travel on those
what was your general impression of the railways? :)

Really nice railway system! :)

Very helpfull staff, good indicated stations and trains, confortable trains... Maybe frequencies on sundays and bank holidays could improve.

I got impressed with train toilets. Toilets of intercity trains here are not prepared for disabbled.

Generally speaking it's a good railway system. Better than our railways, without a doubt.

There is one thing that I didn't understand: why does the train decreases its speed some kilometres before arriving to London? I traveled two times to London from Canterbury and the last 20 minutes of the travel were exasperating.

Really nice railway system! :)

Very helpfull staff, good indicated stations and trains, confortable trains... Maybe frequencies on sundays and bank holidays could improve.

I got impressed with train toilets. Toilets of intercity trains here are not prepared for disabbled.

Generally speaking it's a good railway system. Better than our railways, without a doubt.

There is one thing that I didn't understand: why does the train decreases its speed some kilometres before arriving to London? I traveled two times to London from Canterbury and the last 20 minutes of the travel were exasperating.
I'm not completely sure but usually the last part of the journey into London can be slow due to congestion, it can be annoying when it keeps stopping and starting :ohno: i've noticed this in rush hour sometimes. But also speed limits inside the city are generally slower which might make the journey seem longer :)
Glad you liked the system though, from my experience I find the commuter system out of London pretty good, nice trains and usually on time. Next time you are here you should try our regional railways, they're usually a different story! :lol:

Nice photo tour... Not many places in SE England still have semaphore signalling (Cantebury East Signal Box)... can they be found anywhere else in Europe still?

I love watching a 'proper' signalman throwing points and lowering signals from a traditional signal box... I only really get this opportunity at St Erth in Cornwall when I'm changing from the GWR mainline to the St Ives branch line and vice versa. I think the only remnant of semaphores left in London is the Acton Wells Junction to Cricklewood freight line (or 'Dudding Hill Loop'), but this might have been resignalled since I last saw it.

I'm glad your impression of the South-east's railways were favourable, I think the mainline network of Southeast England is excellent. The slow going into London was probably congestion: usership is still climbing and the current infrastructure is struggling to cope even though most main routes are quadrupled with Waterloo and Victoria having 8 approach roads each and London Bridge having 11 roads stretching all the way to North kent Junction (near Millwall FC).

BTW the map's a little awry... You've got Canterbury roughly where Norwich is! Canterbury is to the South-east of London.

BTW the map's a little awry... You've got Canterbury roughly where Norwich is! Canterbury is to the South-east of London.

:bash: Sorry...

Watching a report on Tony Blair's resignation on a foreign news channel, they mentioned his failure to renationalise British railways, whilst being no great surprise it made me think of that very question.

Railtrack, the regulating body, was renationalised back in 2002, in reaction to a series of terrible accidents since privitisation. Many argued that cut backs and lay offs by the new companies was the cause.
But there were also serious accidents under British Rail.

Trains haven't got cheaper either, and the banks that lease out the trains to the companies try and cut back, limiting services. But isn't this just a different form of what was the constant battle between the old public corporation and a government increasingly unwilling to provide adequate funds?

I don't remember much when the railways were still nationalized, but a lot of people have seen no improvement since.
Perhaps both setups were bad, its just people have nostalgia for British Rail.

Others have argued that like nationalisation, privitisation began amidst euphoria but sank back to accepted, inefficient norms.

What are your thoughts/ experiences?

The current set-up (Public track private train operations) could be the optimal route to follow... It will take many years to undo the damage done by Railtrack, but already safety and punctuality are both improving.

British railways, be they mainline or The Tube, err toward heavy unionisation so having private companies more inclined to tell the likes of Bob Crow (RMT) to fuck off gets a better deal for the customer. They are better-run as businesses (generally) and I think that where it works well (e.g. Chiltern, C2C) the current set-up gives some of the best railway service in the world. We just need to ensure that poorly-performing contracts get terminated, like Connex did, to send a clear message to the TOCs that their days are numbered if they don't manage their franchise effectively.

Having the infrastructure in private hands was lunacy though, and we paid with the blood of scores of passengers and in real terms billions of pounds which was funneled straight into fat cat salaries and shareholder dividends.

This is interesting to we here in Victoria, where operation of public transport was privatised about ten years back, by the State Government of the time: under Premier Kennett.

The transport system was essentially split into four components: freight, country (regional) passenger, suburban rail, and metropolitan tramways. The latter two were both divided somewhat arbitrarily into two operating units each: pretty much along the British Model. Some marginal freight and passenger services were sloughed off as smaller operations.

That meant six contracts. National Express (I know you've heard of them) ended up with 3 contracts: the passenger rail network (V/Line), half of the suburban rail network ("Bayside Trains", which became "M/Train") and half of the tram network (Swanston Trams, which became "M/Tram")

Connex (which you've also heard of) took "Hillside Trains" and just repainted them "Connex": as they remain today.

I'm not sure of the exact order here, but the "West Coast Railway" (a group originating from the operators of a steam-hauled tourist railway) ceased operation and the service was taken over by "V/Line". So far as I can determine the bus company formerly operating the service to Shepparton is no longer operating the service either.

Three (?) years back National Express announced that it wanted out of the contracts. The Government, which had since changed from Conservative to Labour, let them go. Connex took over their suburban rail operations, Yarra Trams, who operated the other half of the tram network took over "M/Tram", and so far as I can understand the country/regional rail network is now operated by the Government again. Certainly they paid for all the new trains and the new track.

Connex now says it wants out of it's contract too. There has been a 20% increase in patronage over the past two years (a stark contrast to when the system was privatised, and there were fears of line closures and service reductions everywhere). Connex is very unpopular, because the trains are so overcrowded, and the trains don't run on time: and Connex doesn't like the Government fining them for poor performance.

edit: I'm wrong about this: despite having been fined $62 million for poor performance, Connex is requesting its contract should be extended to 2011.

Freight? Well, some operators are running huge trains of containers out of Melbourne (hard to see for most Melburnians) but the Privatised freight handler ("Pacific National") was on the agenda of both sides of politics in the state election last year: they both promised to buy it back.

So what's going to be left of Kennett's privatization plans if Connex throws in the towels? Yarra Trams and the profitable long-haul inter-state freight business. On the other hand, both the metropolitan and regional freight services are booming, old rolling stock is being bought back from collectors, and new cars ordered so people don't need to make the 110 km trip to Ballarat sitting on the floor (i.e. not enough seats).

On my observation, the people running the show were basically the same crowd, anyway (and the only stopwork I recall was over shutting down services).

Having the infrastructure in private hands was lunacy though, and we paid with the blood of scores of passengers and in real terms billions of pounds which was funneled straight into fat cat salaries and shareholder dividends.

Yeah, I totally agree. It was a complete exercise in futility putting the infrastructure in private hands. After all, how can you not have a monopoly?
Its impossible for two companies to 'compete' over the same bit of track. They had no one to answer to anymore. Huge cutbacks to bolster the new companies profits margins I think definitely lead to a serious decline in safety.

I mean what was it? - a £160 pound signal replacement could have avoided the Paddington disaster? The damn company in control of that line spent 7 years trying to blame the dead driver! It was only settled this year, and now the fine had to be taken from the network rail's funds- tax payers money.

Interesting to read about Melbourne's experience too. Seems to be a pretty similar situation.

I think the principle should be that because the government is investing billions in the railways through subsidy it should own the track and rolling stock, and merely tender out the right to operate certain parts of the network to the private sector.

That it should retain certain parts in the public sector for quality assurance purposes (if the private sector is worse than the state they can be fired).

Finally it should get rid of the ridiculous franchising system where names change everytime the operator does and create branded subnetworks so people know where the hell a given service is actually going. British Railway history is blessed with a plethora of relavant names. Use those and not the words 'Virgin'* 'Arriva' or 'First'.

*I think this really started to piss me off when I went to Euston one day and realised that I was boarding a train called the 'Virgin Invader'.

The current set-up (Public track private train operations) could be the optimal route to follow...
That's the best thing but some non profitable relations must be support by state.

The first of the 140mph Japanese bullet trains that will go into service on the UK rail network in 2009 arrived in Britain.

The six-car Hitachi Class 395 train reached Southampton on board a roll-on, roll-off ferry.

The bullet trains will be used by the Southeastern train company for domestic services on the soon-to-be-completed final section of the Channel Tunnel Rail link from Kent into central London.

The trains will also play a key role in 2012 London Olympics transport provision by taking spectators from St Pancras station in London to the Olympics site at Stratford, east London, in just seven minutes in a service to be known as the Olympic Javelin.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=477222&in_page_id=1965

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3612/94719337xj5.jpg

This is so strange. I believe this is one of the first Asian trains to set foot in Europe?

Why did they decide to buy Japanese instead of European models?
I mean the Germans and Frech have decent train building technology without shipping trains half way around the globe.
I wonder what was the deciding point in selecting them?

Well probably just playing around with money or too much time or probably because of japan's bullet train technology. I know France's TGV broke the rail record but Japan is currently doing some changes to their bullet train.

Well probably just playing around with money or too much time or probably because of japan's bullet train technology. I know France's TGV broke the rail record but Japan is currently doing some changes to their bullet train.

Something to note about TGV is that it uses shared network. The majority of the Shinkansen network in Japan does not share the network. There are some sections known as Mini-Shinkansen along the Joetsu and Nagano lines, as well as the Seikan Tunnel although no Shinkansen service rolls through there yet (coming soon), but Tohoku and Tokaido-Sanyo lines are dedicated for exclusive Shinkansen use along their entire service routes. This sets them in a separate and superior class to TGV service standards.

TGV may very well have a superior rolling stock. That is important, obviously, but the TGV hurts itself by piggybacking on existing shared infrastructure since it hampers the competitiveness of the service by handicapping the rolling stock from running at its full capability. The Japaense have excelled in their network approach in this regard, and have also pushed the technology as far as it can go within the track design alignment that exists today. The Tokaido Line is today going at 300km/h and the track alignment really does not allow speeds beyond that, even though they have rolling stock that can top it (fastech 360, which will run at 320km/h on the Tohoku Line, downgraded from 360km/h due to noise and other environmental complications that came up during testing trial runs).

The first of the 140mph Japanese bullet trains that will go into service on the UK rail network in 2009 arrived in Britain.

The six-car Hitachi Class 395 train reached Southampton on board a roll-on, roll-off ferry.

The bullet trains will be used by the Southeastern train company for domestic services on the soon-to-be-completed final section of the Channel Tunnel Rail link from Kent into central London.

The trains will also play a key role in 2012 London Olympics transport provision by taking spectators from St Pancras station in London to the Olympics site at Stratford, east London, in just seven minutes in a service to be known as the Olympic Javelin.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=477222&in_page_id=1965

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3612/94719337xj5.jpg
It looks like the Tsubame :)

Something to note about TGV is that it uses shared network. The majority of the Shinkansen network in Japan does not share the network.
...
TGV may very well have a superior rolling stock. That is important, obviously, but the TGV hurts itself by piggybacking on existing shared infrastructure since it hampers the competitiveness of the service by handicapping the rolling stock from running at its full capability.


^^ This is simply not true. :ohno:

Well probably just playing around with money or too much time or probably because of japan's bullet train technology. I know France's TGV broke the rail record but Japan is currently doing some changes to their bullet train.

Hitachi wanted into the European market. The UK wanted another player in the UK market to encourage competition. Hitachi gave a good price...

By the way, this *is not* a bullet train. It comes from the A-train family of commuter EMUs.


[Add] There are also a few extra pictures at http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2007/08/7679/hitachi_class_395_emu_arrives_in_britain.html

and it will be the beginning of many many more products from the east...

The Irish Railways already exploit many different types trainsets built in Japan. The recently ordered new Intercity trainsets for Ireland will again come from the east. The Spanish RENFE runs around with locomotives (251 series) of originally Japanese origin. So its not entirely new, this development. And if the offer good products for good money, why not?

^^ This is simply not true. :ohno:



What are you talking about? The TGV is not on its own dedicated and segregated network for the entire trip, this is a fact.

and it will be the beginning of many many more products from the east...

The Irish Railways already exploit many different types trainsets built in Japan. The recently ordered new Intercity trainsets for Ireland will again come from the east. The Spanish RENFE runs around with locomotives (251 series) of originally Japanese origin. So its not entirely new, this development. And if the offer good products for good money, why not?


RENFE 251, 269, 279, 289 and 299 series are Mitsubishi design, but all of them were made in Spain (just the first two or three units of each series were made in Japan). Spanish railway enterprises, as CAF and MACOSA, paid to Mitsubishi to let them make their locomotives in Spain.

However, these series of trains are usually called "Japonesas" (Japanese) :D.

I hope it has more luggage room than the Shinkansen's I travelled on last month in Japan. They were wholly inadequate for luggage, although it did seem that the Japanese travelled much lighter than us Europeans.

I hope it has more luggage room than the Shinkansen's I travelled on last month in Japan. They were wholly inadequate for luggage, although it did seem that the Japanese travelled much lighter than us Europeans.

Most Sinkansen train models are built by a mix of companies, the 700 series was a conglomeration of Hitachi, Kawasaki, Kinki Sharyo, and Nippon Sharyo. Hitachi may not have designed the interior, and I presume that the interior design goes to a different company and the train companies only work on the body and general design of the train.

What are you talking about? The TGV is not on its own dedicated and segregated network for the entire trip, this is a fact.


This is true but I don't see your point. The fact that the TGV can use the old network (where it shares the tracks) on the final sections of its routes is an advantage as it can reach more destinations, not an handicap as you say.
Anyway, the dedicated network is quite huge: from Paris to le Mans and Tours westbound, to Marseille and Montpellier southbound, to Brussels and Calais northbound it can run at full speed without sharing its tracks. Brussels-Marseille is probably one of the longest trip in the world that you can do at 300km/h on a dedicated track with only 3-4 stops.
The Shinkansen doesn't share its tracks because the "regular" network is only 1 meter gauge in Japan, which is not suitable for high speed.

These trains will use the Channel Tunnel as well?

^^ no

(Japan non-Shinkansen network uses 1067 mm or 3'6'' gauge, not 1000 mm, anyway)

This is true but I don't see your point. The fact that the TGV can use the old network (where it shares the tracks) on the final sections of its routes is an advantage as it can reach more destinations, not an handicap as you say.
Anyway, the dedicated network is quite huge: from Paris to le Mans and Tours westbound, to Marseille and Montpellier southbound, to Brussels and Calais northbound it can run at full speed without sharing its tracks. Brussels-Marseille is probably one of the longest trip in the world that you can do at 300km/h on a dedicated track with only 3-4 stops.
The Shinkansen doesn't share its tracks because the "regular" network is only 1 meter gauge in Japan, which is not suitable for high speed.

The other disadvantage of the Shinkansen in Japan, and not sharing it's tracks is that often it means you have to go to a special station which is not in the most central of area's. I had such experiences in Kobe and Osaka.

^^ no

(Japan non-Shinkansen network uses 1067 mm or 3'6'' gauge, not 1000 mm, anyway)

Than what's the meaning of the whole thing? Why not make the system so Eurostars could use it, and in case the new japenese trains could use the tunnel? Why the different gauges?

Than what's the meaning of the whole thing? Why not make the system so Eurostars could use it, and in case the new japenese trains could use the tunnel? Why the different gauges?

I think you have missed the point. Eurostar is a high-speed intercity train designed for 2 to 3 hour trips between cities with few stops.

Class 395 (the Hitachi trains being talked about here) are commuter trains designed for rapid loading and unloading and high acceleration. They will use part of the HS1 track to get to UK destinations.

Eurostars also use the HS1. Gauge has nothing to do with this conversation and is an issue only in Japan.

The reason Shinkansen uses new dedicated tracks for all the journey, is indeed because Japan uses narrow gauge for ordinary lines. They had no choice.
TGV, on the other hand, uses both new tracks and old tracks, and its flexibility is indeed an advantage for the network. JR East learned from the idea and started their "Mini-Shinkansen" services, Shinkansen that goes through (gauge widened) ordinary lines.

The fact TGV uses shared tracks, however, can be a damage as well. It can not fully utilize its dedicated tracks. That is, it can handle much less amount of passengers than Shinkansen, a line fully comprised of dedicated tracks. (This is also because TGV uses the trains with smaller capacity, since they go through ordinary lines, and also because it uses push-pull cars with lower acceleration compared with EMUs.) TGV's busiest section, between Paris and Lyon, transports 48,000 passengers a day, while Tokaido Shinkansen transports 356,000 passengers a day,

I'm not saying Shinkansen is whole better than TGV, though. The two are simply very different systems. TGV can't handle the traffic Shinkansen can, but then again, TGV doesn't need to. TGV is faster and cheaper, while Shinkansen is busier and quieter (the latter is important in the mountainous islands with very high population density on habitable area). They excel in different points, being suitable in different environments.

Oh, but anyway, this Class 395 is not based on Shinkansen. Sorry for being off topic.

Eurostars also use the HS1. Gauge has nothing to do with this conversation and is an issue only in Japan.
Gauge not but the wideness of the trains may be interesting here. The Eurostar are narrower than the continental trains because they had to deal with the old tracks in UK. But If I'm not wrong the new HS route respects the continental standards. So could we imagine in the future wider and double-decker Eurostar like the TGV Duplex between Paris and London?

Sure, there is no technical reason why a TGV Duplex could not come to London this year - the only thing stopping it after November will be the Channel Tunnel fire regulations, which the Eurostar complies with of course. However, the traffic levels on Eurostar are not high enough (yet) to need "Eurostar Duplex" trains.

The first vehicle which came to Europe from Japan is incorrect.
From old days, it is exported to U.S.A., the U.K., Ireland, others.
Kawasaki, Hitachi produce it.
The half of the share of the subway of NYC is a Japanese vehicle.

That train looks like the Virgin train.

The National Railway Museum is the world's largest of its kind.

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8360.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8368.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8365.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8370.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8384.jpg

Was a bit surprised to see a bullet train here as well!

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8379.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8373.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8374.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8375.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8382.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8388.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8383.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8390.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8386.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8391.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8394.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8395.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8398.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8396.jpg

A railway museum will not be complete without models.

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8405.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8403.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8407.jpg

Old signage

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8408.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8414.jpg

This display gallery has so many items to see. If I wanted to research something I could be in there all day!

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8416.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8417.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8410.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8419.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8422.jpg

That day, I went from Glasgow to York, and ultimately bound for London in the evening.

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8421.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8425.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8429.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/england/20060518/IMG_8431.jpg

Its free too, I last went in 2001 and was dissapointed to see it had hardly changed since the early 90s when I'd last went though.

We have a similar museum,its called "Vasúttörténeti Park"(Railroad history museum).
http://cerf.balloide-photo.com/dyn/phototheque/photo/36_5855_43663.jpg

http://cerf.balloide-photo.com/dyn/phototheque/photo/36_5856_11436.jpg

http://cerf.balloide-photo.com/dyn/phototheque/photo/36_5857_20645.jpg

http://cerf.balloide-photo.com/dyn/phototheque/photo/36_5858_56829.jpg

http://cerf.balloide-photo.com/dyn/phototheque/photo/36_5859_12785.jpg

http://cikkiro.terasz.hu/cikk/kepek/6701_9_6054_1.jpg
And here is a page,which is related to this museum, from a transportation blog:
http://hampage.hu/trams/fusti050918/

Hmmmm, I really oughtta've made it there during their recent big anniversary year . . .

the TGV hurts itself by piggybacking on existing shared infrastructure since it hampers the competitiveness of the service by handicapping the rolling stock from running at its full capability.
It would appear you fail to recognize the differences in population densities between those two nations overseas, never mind their differences at how they develop. The French 'handicap' I think amounts to a type of super swift travel package you refuse to recognize. Besides, maybe there's some kind of French law prohibiting swift running in town, being the lone type of setting where 'it fouls' infrastructure.

I wish the buyers had some hand in choosing the looks of the new incoming electric fleet announced here (I'd bet they used to do handsomely back in the day). UK could really do a good job, I think, at choosing for themselves something purely distinctive for the whole country (and then some).

Amazing. I really have to go there one day. When you say "largest of it's kind in the world", what kind do you mean?

Does anyone know if this is a tilting train?

Does anyone know if this is a tilting train?

No need for it to be - it's going to run at 225km/h on the dedicated high-speed track, and at the same speed (160km/h?) as local services on the older track in Kent.

No need for it to be - it's going to run at 225km/h on the dedicated high-speed track, and at the same speed (160km/h?) as local services on the older track in Kent.

The speed on local tracks is approx 60 - 80 mph Ashford to Ramsgate, a little higher on sections Ashford to Dover and along the coast. Out of interest Ashford to Tonbridge is max 100mph, but it is the longest dead straight section of railway in the uk. Generally, past Ashford the trains will stop loads so high speed is not the aim in this area, but passenger collection.

TGV may very well have a superior rolling stock. That is important, obviously, but the TGV hurts itself by piggybacking on existing shared infrastructure since it hampers the competitiveness of the service by handicapping the rolling stock from running at its full capability.

Your information is incorrect. TGVs operate on dedicated tracks north out of Paris (TGV Nord) as far as belgium and the channel tunnel, south out of Paris as far as the south coast and the cote d'azur (TGV Lyon/Mediterranee) and south east out of Paris for a 100 miles or so (TGV Atlantique). Currently near completion is a line to Strasbourg (TGV Est) due eventually to go all the way to the German border. They share infrastructure with slower vehicles over ever decreasing distances, are not handicapped in any way. If you were to take a TGV from Lille to Marseille you would travel 700 miles on deicated high speed line at 300mph. Apart from stock currently operating Est services (in advance of TGV-Est opening) all TGV stock runs at full capability for some, if not most of the distance of it's journey.

(Wow, congratulations, Europe, on your two-hour-15-minute link between London and Paris -- WOW {my envy can't cease growing . . . }!)

I've read that it's the largest railway museum in the world.

This is so strange. I believe this is one of the first Asian trains to set foot in Europe?
late reply, no it's not.

Spain has some licensed electric locos and Korean manufacturer Rotem has build some trains/metros for Greece and Turkey.

Your information is incorrect. TGVs operate on dedicated tracks north out of Paris (TGV Nord) as far as belgium and the channel tunnel, south out of Paris as far as the south coast and the cote d'azur (TGV Lyon/Mediterranee) and south east out of Paris for a 100 miles or so (TGV Atlantique).

South West

Currently near completion is a line to Strasbourg (TGV Est) due eventually to go all the way to the German border. They share infrastructure with slower vehicles over ever decreasing distances, are not handicapped in any way. Apart from stock currently operating Est services (in advance of TGV-Est opening) all TGV stock runs at full capability for some, if not most of the distance of it's journey.

TGV Est opened June 10th

If you were to take a TGV from Lille to Marseille you would travel 700 miles on deicated high speed line at 300mph.

300km/h - and in parts 320km/h

South West


Wasn't concentrating!

(Wow, congratulations, Europe, on your two-hour-15-minute link between London and Paris -- WOW {my envy can't cease growing . . . }!)

Terrible attempt at sarcasm if you ask me.

These trains are basically high speed commuter trains... Like The Great Western between Paddington and Swindon...?

Yeah, half the people on those trains get off at Reading, Didcot and Swindon.

I thought so...

Yes they are high speed commuter trains, however unlike GWT these will become proper crawler commuter trains once they leave the high speed line, replacing almost like for like current train paths on services in and out of CX and Vicoria. Which means stopping and starting every few minutes and rarely getting above 70 mph, but I think it's kind of neat that they'll have this dual-personality about them.

Bringing romance to British rail

LONDON, Oct 18 (Reuters) - If you were to ask most British rail travellers to describe their daily experience, chances are the words "elegant", "romantic" and "magical" would not pass their lips.

But if Alastair Lansley has pitched things right -- and every indication so far is that he has -- rail rage may soon be a thing of the past, particularly if travelling via St Pancras, the new home for Eurostar trains to the continent.

The architect behind the renovation of the station, a 19th-century masterpiece once threatened with dereliction, is a devotee of railway architecture who's dedicated the past 11 years to returning St Pancras to its former glory.

Designed by the architect William Barlow and completed in 1868, St Pancras was once the largest enclosed space in the world, featuring a breathtaking steel-and-glass train "shed" arching 240 feet (75 metres) over the railway lines.

The station itself is a red brick Gothic marvel boasting turrets and towers that was completed in 1876 and for nearly 60 years served as one of London's most luxurious hotels.

Since 2001, both station and shed have undergone an 800 million pound ($1.6 bln) renovation to turn them into a state-of-the-art destination, not just for catching trains, but for high-end dining, shopping, champagne-drinking and living.

"We wanted to create another dimension in travel, to revive the romantic side of the railways," says Lansley as he guides a group of visitors around the beautifully restored "shed", which will officially be opened by the Queen next month and from where the first trains will depart to Paris on November 14.

"If you're travelling to Paris by train, it should evoke images of elegance and romance, and I think we're going to have achieved that."

New high-speed trains will deliver passengers from the station to Paris in just two hours and 15 minutes -- the result of a 6 billion pound, 10-year infrastructure upgrade. It will feature a stylish champagne bar overlooking the platform.

At 93 metres (300 feet), that will not only be Europe's longest champagne bar, but it will also offer up to 40 marques of bubbly to tempt tipplers whether waiting for a train or just dropping by for a drink.

A French brasserie, run by Searcy, the company behind highly rated restaurants on top of London's Gherkin and at the Barbican, will offer romantic dining behind the brick archways and sky-blue steel struts that support the glass roof.

Other features that lend a deep sense of history and romance are the vast central clock, an exact replica of the original Dent clock which was damaged while it was being removed to be sold to a collector in the 1970s.

A nine-metre sculpture by artist Paul Day featuring a man and a woman whose heads are touching in an intimate embrace will grace the floor under the clock, forming a natural meeting point for those making a rendezvous at the station.

For Lansley, elegantly dressed in a charcoal suit and white shirt with French cuffs, St Pancras represents the future of rail travel, taking Britain towards the continent.

"On the continent, everyone is aware of the beauty of rail travel, but in this country frankly it's been lost. We hope that with this station, we can bring the romance back."

I sincerely hope the best for St. Pancras and for the now finally finished Eurostar line from London to Paris or Brussels.

May it be a success.

There is a better thread in the UK forums, with a well written article to boot.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=533753

There's a video Advert on youtube showing the new stations at Ebbsfleet and St Pancras.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWSep2v1B_w

Not that I have anything against Eurostar trains, but the article says they are 'new', which is a bit misleading as they've been about since 1994.

Not that I have anything against Eurostar trains, but the article says they are 'new', which is a bit misleading as they've been about since 1994.

That sums up journalists. :nuts:

I hope the new St Pancras leads to some form of sleeper service to the South of France and beyond direct from London. :)

Regional Eurostar may be a possibility in the future but in the meantime I hope they intoduce European Sleeper trains from St Pancras. :)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/61897952_4dc0d16e98_o.jpg

British Queen opens revamped Gothic London terminus

LONDON, Nov 6 (Reuters) - Britain's Queen Elizabeth formally opened London's St Pancras station on Tuesday after it had an 800 million pound ($1.6 billion) facelift to give passengers an elegant send off on a new high-speed rail link to the continent.

The station, a red-brick Gothic marvel completed during the reign of Queen Victoria in 1876, becomes the new home for Eurostar trains linking London with Paris and Brussels from Nov. 14, replacing Waterloo.

The renovation of St Pancras and the laying of a new high-speed line from the capital to the coast are all part of 10-year, 10 billion pound infrastructure upgrade that will deliver passengers to Paris in just two hours 15 minutes.

Accompanied by music from the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and opera singer Katherine Jenkins, the Queen unveiled a plaque to mark the restoration of the station with its 75-metre steel-and-glass train "shed", a structure built in 1868.

"It says a good deal about how we can take a 21st century approach whilst at the same time having due consideration of our heritage," the Queen said.

While Waterloo has successfully served as a terminus for Eurostar trains since 1994, the architects of St Pancras hope their elegantly restored station will offer a more stylish, romantic point of departure and arrival.

As well as featuring Europe's longest champagne bar at 93 metres (300 feet), with 40 marques of bubbly on offer, the station will also house a French brasserie and top-end clothing and organic food stores. Fast food joints have been banished.

In an effort to evoke the classic epoch of rail travel, the station also boasts a specially commissioned 9-metre sculpture, called "The Meeting", depicting a cosmopolitan couple locked in a romantic embrace, their foreheads touching.

There have been some rumblings of criticism that the station is pitching too high-end and will not manage to become a place to visit in and of itself, but the architects say they are sure customers are ready for a more refined travel experience.

"If you're travelling to Paris by train, it should evoke images of elegance and romance, and I think we're going to have achieved that," Alastair Lansley, the architect behind the renovation, told Reuters last month.

(Editing by Matthew Tostevin)

Train Journey Times from London St Pancras

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/11_01/map10611_468x591.jpg

London St Pancras Station under Restoration.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/59/211981640_358128265a_o.jpg


Grand Opening last night

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2036/1904700669_29bf7c2143_o.jpg

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/img/global/tol-logo.gif

November 7, 2007

St Pancras is restored to international glory and even the French are impressed

St Pancras is restored to international glory and even the French are impressed - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2821090.ece)

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00230/ray-385_230273a.jpg

Having opened one venerable British institution yesterday morning, the Queen reopened another last night. And this is one that even the French admire.

Guillaume Pépy, head of SNCF, has described the majestically rejuvenated St Pancras, a cathedral of High Victorian engineering, as possibly the best station in the world. This, from the boss of possibly the best railway network in the world, is praise indeed, especially as it’s not one of his.

After years of parsimony and dithering, the nation that invented railways has finally caught up with the fact that trains are enjoying a 21st-century renaissance. The Queen’s official opening last night of the 68-mile (110 km) high-speed link from Central London to the Channel Tunnel marked not only the completion of Britain’s largest construction project but also a determined effort to reunite the train with the concept of romance.

Declaring the station open the Queen said: “The remarkable reverse of this great and gleaming station means that people across the whole of Britain, not just the South East, are suddenly quite a bit closer to Europe.”

In a showy ceremony involving an orchestra, singers and giant screens, William Barlow’s 1868 iron-and-glass train shed was transformed into a theatre with 1,000 invited guests, including the movers and shakers of modern railwaydom, politicians and hangers-on desperate to see a bit of a spectacle. Gordon Brown was on hand to welcome the Queen into a station that positively sings its £800 million restoration. David Cameron also shook the royal hand, as did Ken Livingstone, the Mayor of London, who never lets his socialist principles get in the way of a chance to meet his monarch. Timothy West – thespian, real ale gourmet and steam train buff – played Barlow the architect in a short tableau telling the history of a station that has virtually risen from the dead and that puts the Gare du Nord, at the other end of the line, to shame.

Above the Queen and the guests, the roof of the station soared 100ft like a medieval cruck barn, except that its iron ribs had been repainted in their original baby blue – the idea, apparently, of St Pancras’s first station-master, who wanted his passengers to have a reminder of the open sky.

London and Continental Railways (LCR), which restored the station and built the link to be known as High Speed One, may be sold, broken up or part-privatised after finishing the £5.8 billion project to shave 20 minutes off the time to Paris. But they have been determined to restore St Pancras not just to a station but to an experience.

The Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh saw the huge Meeting Place statue of two entwined lovers, the statue of Sir John Betjeman, whose campaigning saved St Pancras from demolition, and the undercroft, which once stored Burton beer but is now a shopping arcade as well as the departure and arrival point for Eurostar passengers.

The Queen met the architects, railway chiefs and others who have toiled for nearly ten years to ensure that Par-is-bound trains can travel at 186mph on this side of the Channel as well as the other. In France, the line built in 1994 has trains hurtling through the open spaces of the Pas de Calais; here, it will now burrow at speed beneath East London instead of being stuck behind the 8.16 all-stations-to-Folkestone. But St Pancras remains a British station serving, from next Wednesday, Thameslink trains between Bedford and Brighton as well as the Midland Main Line.

Rob Holden, chief executive of LCR, said: “The opening of St Pancras International is a great source of pride for the thousands of men and women who have been involved in one of the most significant projects in UK railway history.” So, Monsieur Pépy, as the Eurostar moves from Waterloo next Wednesday, you can no longer complain about the triumphalist name of the station at the British end. And, by the way, don’t you have a station in Paris called Austerlitz?

Good news.
id like to see some more interior pics

Good news.
id like to see some more interior pics

The Barlow Shed under Refurbishment.

The shed was named after Gary Barlow, lead singer of Take That.

Gary Barlow was honoured at the shed being named after him, but furious
concerning runours that Kings Cross next door could be renamed the Robbie Williams Grand Central. :ohno:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/jordanknight04/Take%20That/012vs9.jpg

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/images/g/gary_barlow.jpg

http://kingscross.argentgroup.plc.uk/gallery/images/kx-aerial-03.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2186/1826657372_3b7832b462_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1230/1361533030_e806b34351_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1173/1361533556_18f293d03e_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1168/1361529900_113e74f3e4_o.jpg

In typical clumsy English style, most of those journey times are wrong :D
The continent is an hour ahead, remember? Brussels 232 miles in 75 minutes? Yeah, right.

In typical clumsy English style, most of those journey times are wrong :D
The continent is an hour ahead, remember? Brussels 232 miles in 75 minutes? Yeah, right.

Well spotted, that one should read 1 hour 51 minutes :okay:

http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisure/about_eurostar/on_the_move.jsp

Btw the map isn't an official Eurostar guide, it was one from a British Tabloid Newspaper, which explains a lot. :lol:

I think the map is just time spent on the train rather than time differences, although the Brussels time is still wrong.

Maglev train system could re-balance UK economy
Nov 7 2007 by Bill Gleeson, Liverpool Daily Post

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/business/business-columns/2007/11/07/maglev-train-system-could-re-balance-uk-economy-64375-20071781/

A NETWORK of Maglev rail connections linking the north of England with the nation’s capital and northern cities with each other could transform the balance of the UK economy.

That is the claim made by those promoting the scheme.

The network would cost billions to build but would, it is claimed, hugely shorten travel times between cities, making business much easier to do.

Such investment would also help the region and the nation keep pace with places like China and Germany, where Maglev schemes have either already been implemented or are in the throes of being approved.

One of the leading advocates of the Maglev system is Jack Stopforth, chairman of Liverpool Chamber of Commerce. He is currently trying to raise £250,000 towards the cost of a research project to study the viability of the project.

So far, he has raised £100,000 from the Northwest Development Agency and another £50,000 from Maglev designer Siemens.

Mr Stopforth said: “This is not just a transport thing. It has the potential to re-balance the UK economy.

“Nor is it just Liverpool to London. Just imagine if Leeds and Manchester were just 15 minutes apart. What a difference that would make to connectivity in the North.

“But I think a connection between Liverpool and Manchester should be first.”

Such a link could connect Liverpool city centre, the city’s airport, the Trafford Centre, Manchester city centre and include a spur to Manchester Airport.

Much of the line could be built on Peel Holding’s Manchester Ship Canal estate, making the process easier to implement, suggests Mr Stopforth.

He says the Government has agreed to listen to the case for a Maglev network, even though it currently believes the scale of investment would make it uneconomic.

The Mersey Partnership has backed Liverpool Chamber’s ambition to conduct a study. It is now trying to persuade the region’s local authorities to chip in to the cost.

UK Ultraspeed gave a presentation at TMP’s offices recently to outline the benefits of the connection. UK Ultraspeed owns the sole rights to promote Maglevs in the UK from its German designers, engineering groups Siemens and ThyssenKrupp.

Maglev trains can travel at speeds in excess of 300mph and require little maintenance due to their lack of parts. The cars float above their tracks and are propelled by electromagnetic force.

UK Ultraspeed believes a line would be viable using private sector investment only.

Such a train could get from Liverpool to Manchester in 10 minutes, and from Liverpool to London in just under an hour.

The proposed routes would use eight times less land and half the vehicle fleet than conventional high-speed trains, it is claimed.

Although Maglev vehicles cannot use the existing infrastructure of the British railways, the track can be built up to 20 metres above ground, thus needing no major engineering structures such as bridges.

There is an existing route in Shanghai and a test route in Germany. The Shanghai service has been in operation for three years, and the city’s authorities are now planning to extend it. The current service links the city’s principal airport with the city centre.

A Maglev has run in England before, from Birmingham International station to its airport between 1984 and 1995, but was shut down as its electronic system eventually became unreliable.

The proposed north-south link between London and Glasgow via the Midlands, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and Edinburgh, would cost an estimated £16bn.

Robbie Williams Grand Central? :lol:
Anyways, great pics. Turned out nicely.
I just hope that they are taking down that awful entrance hall in front of King's Cross now.
Does anyone know when thats to happen?

The Kings Cross scheme is due for completion in 2012. :)

The big glass extension on the side looks good and the current 60's crap at the front of the station will go with the orginal facade and new forecourt replacing it :okay:

http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/project/uploaded_files/61_385%20Kings%20Cross.jpg

Inside the new glass extension.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/eastcoast/images/8-kings-cross-revamp.jpg

Good that theyre getting rid of it.
Itll create a nice square in front of the station

Do you know whether theyll do anything to the King's Cross Thameslink station aswell?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/20040910-005-kings-cross-thameslink.jpg/800px-20040910-005-kings-cross-thameslink.jpg

King's Cross Thameslink won't be used from December as Thameslink trains are going from a new station under St Pancras. The future of the old station is undecided, but it may be converted into another entrance to King's Cross Tube station.

Right, thx.

Regular services between Paris-Nord, Bruxelles-Midi and London-St Pancrass should start on 17th november...but SNCF workers will start a no-limit strike on 14th november.
Strike is a national sport...

"The proposed routes would use eight times less land and half the vehicle fleet than conventional high-speed trains, it is claimed."

Eight times?
Maglev 10 m and wheel-HSR 80 m wide? Or what?

What is the strike over?

"The proposed routes would use eight times less land and half the vehicle fleet than conventional high-speed trains it is claimed."

Eight times?
Maglev 10 m and wheel-HSR 80 m wide? Or what?
The autor considers that a Maglev system like Transrapid use an elevated track over the ground: so, it use less land. But for poeple who live here, there is no real difference. The big problem about maglev systems is the weather: wind and rain could make to vehicule go slower than expected.

If you reach 500 km/h, the main problem is the air resistance: a magnetic system must use more energy to keep is speed when an HSR can use inertia.
There are two way to reduce air resistance: climbing over 6 000 m (it's what we do everyday with planes) or using a tunnel like Swissmetro project...but the costs are awfull.

Let us not forget the noise such a vehicle makes at that speed...

This is from a layman's perspective, but does anyone know if there are any health risks associated from living near a maglev track? A bit like with electricity pylons?

I think it would be better to first get our current railway system running efficeintly rather than going for maglev i mean this must be a joke right. I took me nearly 9 hours to get from east coast of scotland to manchester never again will i be making that journey by train.

If you reach 500 km/h, the main problem is the air resistance: a magnetic system must use more energy to keep is speed when an HSR can use inertia.



This is all pure speculation.
The Transrapid Maglev can use inertia as well, and they also tested it.
Furthermore they also tested the system with running speeds around 420 kmh in Emsland-Germany during snow, heavy rain and heavy wind.
And its running fine.

Furthermore, the air resistance is bigger, yes, but the aerodynamics of a maglev vehicle is much better, as you have a train body, that can be designed only considering the aerodynamic drag, while a concentional train needs wheels,bogies and pantographs.

http://www.transrapid.de/basics/archiv/196/tri_1007.jpg

Furthermore, the air resistance is bigger, yes, but the aerodynamics of a maglev vehicle is much better, as you have a train body, that can be designed only considering the aerodynamic drag, while a concentional train needs wheels,bogies and pantographs.


Just one slight note - maglevs have bogies (as that's what the magnets are attached to it), but they meld with the body in a near-seamless way. The end result is pretty much as you explain though :)

I think it would be better to first get our current railway system running efficeintly rather than going for maglev i mean this must be a joke right. I took me nearly 9 hours to get from east coast of scotland to manchester never again will i be making that journey by train.

Firstly, can you use some punctuation? It's there for a reason.

Secondly, why are you basing one negative example as an indication of the rest of the network?

Good that theyre getting rid of it.
Itll create a nice square in front of the station

Do you know whether theyll do anything to the King's Cross Thameslink station aswell?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/20040910-005-kings-cross-thameslink.jpg/800px-20040910-005-kings-cross-thameslink.jpg

The Thameslink Station is being replaced by a new station under St Pancras due to open next month.

Cool. St. Pancras is a beautiful station, it's a nice way to get into Britain in style.

Firstly, can you use some punctuation? It's there for a reason.

Secondly, why are you basing one negative example as an indication of the rest of the network?

What is wrong with my ppppunctuatiooon?

It was my experience so i thought i would share it with everyone else! clearly u must be one of the train company owners right either that or u are very insensitive about UK trains!

They should build buidings on elevated stilts, then they wouldn't use up so much land.:hilarious

Let us not forget the noise such a vehicle makes at that speed...

This is from a layman's perspective, but does anyone know if there are any health risks associated from living near a maglev track? A bit like with electricity pylons?

Not much from what I have heard for Transrapid system.
About the same as a celluar phone.

The Japanese system generates a much higher electro-magnetic field but again it is still in the testing stage and shielding will probably be made mandatory in construction of tracks.

Meet me at St Pancras
St Pancras subheading heady hedy heading heading
Mark Palmer hails a reborn landmark: not just a station, more the place to be
10 November 2007
The Daily Telegraph

'Look, look,'' says the hard-hatted man from London & Continental Railways, "Here it comes. Now isn't that an undeniably impressive sight?'' Well, yes, it's not bad as dress rehearsals go: the new High Speed 1 Eurostar sliding into St Pancras and coming to a halt a few paces from Paul Day's nine-metre high sculpture of a young couple embracing under the huge replica Dent clock at the end of the concourse.

On Tuesday, the Queen stood on this same platform to formally open the station. Next Wednesday, it will be all systems go as the new service's trains start to ping-pong back and forth in little more than two hours between Paris and London, just under two hours between London and Brussels and a mere 90 minutes between London and Lille.

Will the station mark the beginning of a new golden age of travel? St Pancras is already being compared with New York's Grand Central, one of the world's most romantic meeting places (think Cary Grant in North by Northwest). Not so much a train station from where you begin or end a journey, but a destination in itself. "Meet me at St Pancras'' has a certain ring to it, a call to romantics everywhere.

And, like Grand Central, with its Oyster Bar and gourmet food market, there will be plenty on offer for hungry lovers. I can't wait to see the expression on the faces of a certain kind of French man or woman as they disembark in London feeling peckish. For the first time at a station in this country, they'll be spoilt for choice.

Some may choke on their prejudices as they see waiters and waitresses scurrying about with trays of food. One or two might need to pinch themselves. And where better to do so than at the world's longest Champagne bar, which runs almost the entire length of the station, behind a glass partition on Platform One. Here, they can perch and observe the "fine dining'' restaurant operated by Searcy, where there will also be a bar, a bistro and a private room.

Some new arrivals might be tempted to head for the Betjeman Arms, a gastro pub operated by trendy Geronimo Inns on the south-east corner of William Henry Barlow's wondrous, and wondrously restored, engine shed. The menu should make them feel at home. It will be a radical departure from normal train station fare in Britain. That means chopped steak tartare, eggs Benedict, potted shrimp and wild mushrooms on toast for starters, followed by a choice of smoked haddock with poached egg and hollandaise, grilled rib-eye steak with lots of Béarnaise, roast cod sitting on white beans and chorizo, linguine with clams and so on.

To follow? The visitors from France could do worse than pop downstairs for a browse around the farmers' market modelled on the now iconic Borough Market near London Bridge. It's not clear how often the market will be held, but stand by for oysters from Whitstable, lamb from Herefordshire and tomatoes from the Isle of Wight. On certain days, a string quartet will add some mood music for shoppers and travellers alike. There will be space for art, street performers, banks of computer terminals, flower stalls and shops of every hue.

It all so nearly wasn't to be. Not long ago, bulldozers were parked on the forecourt outside the Midland Grand Hotel, ready to destroy what is now regarded as the greatest monument of the Gothic Revival in Britain.

In 1966, the year England were victorious in the World Cup, the nationalised British Railways were admitting defeat over what to do with both Barlow's station and George Gilbert Scott's 300-room hotel, which was more or less abandoned after 1935. Built in 1873, Scott's masterpiece (the first to have lifts, or "ascending rooms'', and a famous Ladies' Smoking Room) benefited from the finest materials, but was short of bathrooms. Then it became short of guests - and woefully short of admirers.

"It's a miracle that the building is still there at all,'' says Simon Thurley, chief executive of English Heritage. "It became a target for those who hated Victorian architecture and could very easily have been replaced with a squat box, like the one at Euston station.

"The story of St Pancras is a lesson to us all. It gives a lie to the idea that you have to choose between old and new. These great buildings are remarkably flexible and are crying out to be used. We owe a huge debt to those who stood up and rescued St Pancras in the 1960s.''

No one stood taller than Sir John Betjeman, the late poet laureate, even though at one point he seemed resigned to defeat when describing the building as "too beautiful and too romantic to survive''. Then the cavalry arrived in the form of the Victorian Society, then led by Nikolaus Pevsner. Betjeman rallied, urging the nation to admire "that cluster of towers and pinnacles seen from Pentonville Hill and outlined against a foggy sunset, and the great arc of the train shed, gaping to devour the incoming engines''.

A year later, St Pancras was Grade 1 listed, elevating it to the same status as Canterbury Cathedral and Windsor Castle. A specially commissioned statue of Betjeman by Martin Jennings, complete with trademark trilby, now stands at the top of one of four large slots cut through Barlow's platform deck, allowing natural light to flood into the undercroft for the first time (with 18,000 new panes of glass in the roof, it's the first time for more than 100 years that light of any kind has been seen at the station) and giving access from one floor to the other for passengers and the visiting public.

Ah, the visiting public - the crucial unknown component in this pounds 800 million equation and a good reason why you won't find a Burger King, a McDonald's or an Upper Crust anywhere in this steel and glass-ceiling architectural cathedral.

"We will know we've been successful when people start coming to St Pancras and have no intention of catching a train,'' says Mike Luddy, project director for London & Continental Railways, the company responsible for the new Channel Tunnel rail link. "That's why, in addition to the quality of the retail outlets, we will have four times more staff per customer than any other station, and why the cleaning contract will be similar to that you would draw up for an indoor shopping centre. To say we are raising the bar is an understatement.''

Let's not forget that some 50 million people a year will use the station in one form or another. It's not really one station, but four converging stations: Eurostar, Midland Mainline, First Capital Connect (formerly Thameslink) and King's Cross St Pancras underground (London's busiest tube station), with the high-speed Kent commuter service set to join the party in 2009.

All 67 retail outlets have been filled. On the upper floor, directly under Barlow's roof (the largest single span structure in the world when it opened in 1868 and still the tallest and widest train shed in the country), will be the Betjeman Arms, a branch of Carluccio's, the 1868 Champagne Bar and Searcy's restaurant and brasserie. Further north, there's a West Cornwall Pasty shop and the Camden Food deli.

At one point, it looked as if Caprice Holdings (The Ivy, Scott's, the Caprice) would win the contract for the station's main restaurant. Then the Galvin brothers (Galvin at Windows) came in with a bid, before Searcy persuaded Luddy and others that their experience at the Royal Opera House, the Barbican and the National Portrait Gallery would be useful at St Pancras.

At the front of the station, the hotel, which appeared in both the Spice Girls' first video, Wannabe, and in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, will be operated by the Marriott group. When it opens in 2009, it will have 245 rooms, a spa, ballroom and some 70 apartments managed jointly with the Manhattan Loft Corporation.

Take the stairs or lift (if approaching from street level, you will walk through magnificent double oak doors with old brass fixtures and fittings) to the undercroft and this is where you check in for the Eurostar. The cedar wood floor is thought to be the quietest possible wood floor that can stand up to constant traffic.

The undercroft once stored barrels of beer. In fact, Barlow said that the "length of a beer barrel became the unit of measure upon which all the arrangements of this floor were based''. Barlow's 850 columns, which allowed the platforms to be constructed 18 feet above street level (each column able to withstand 55 tons in weight) have been gloriously preserved. They give the shops (which all have screens that show the train times) a gravitas they would not normally get in a shopping arcade.

The biggest unit, Marks & Spencer apart, will be occupied by Foyles bookshop, a symbol for everything the new St Pancras is about - lingering, browsing and, as Thurley puts it, "just feeling privileged to be standing in a building that's like no other on Earth''.

Thomas Pink, LK Bennett, Monsoon, La Senza, Oliver Bonas, Neal's Yard Remedies, Hamleys - the list goes on. The closer you walk to the Midland Mainline trains the more you will notice familiar high street names: M&S Simply Food, Pret a Manger, Caffè Nero, Le Pain Quotidien, Starbucks, Yo! Sushi.

These 21st-century grazing grounds will not stand the test of time like St Pancras. Indeed, some traditionalists might struggle with the idea that workers have unearthed 7,000 bodies from the ground just north of the station during the project, even though all have been carefully identified and reinterred in East Finchley cemetery. Yet the words of the historian Jack Simmonds still seem appropriate today and will be felt more keenly than ever as St Pancras once more becomes a living national landmark:

"The station distils the very essence of mid-Victorian power: for it is the most magnificent commercial building of the age, reflecting more completely than any other its economic achievement, its triumphant technology, its assurance and pride, suffused by romance.''

* The Dent clock was sold to an American for pounds 250 in the 1970s, but workmen dropped it during its removal. An engine driver named Roland Hoggard bagged up the bits, which were crucial in making an exact replica. Hoggard, now 91, was at the station's opening ceremony.

* The restoration used more than 16 million new bricks, all designed to look exactly like the old ones.

* 300,000 Welsh slates, from the same Ffestiniog quarry that produced the original ones, have been installed.

* 8,000 jobs were created during the construction.

* 18,000 individual panes of self-cleaning glass have been used to form the new roof.

* 18 layers of paint were removed to reveal the original "Barlow Blue'' colour (some 20,000 litres of paint were used).

* 13 listed buildings were moved during construction.

* 190,000 miles of cable have been fitted.

* More than 1 million trees were planted during construction.

* It took 50 million man-hours to complete the project.

* Eurostar trains are the fastest (almost 200 mph) in the UK. The Hitachi "bullet trains'' will be the fastest (140mph) domestic trains in the UK.

* 1,000 bottles of Champagne were put on ice for the official re-opening by the Queen last Tuesday.

PLATFORM CHANGES

* Best place to meet
The foot of the 20-ton, pounds 1 million statue by Paul Day called, appropriately, The Meeting Place

* Best place to drink
The Betjeman Arms, with more than 30 foreign beers and plenty of British real ale

* Best place to eat
Searcy's private dining-room at the west of the station. There's space for up to 18

* Best place to people-watch
The 1868 Champagne bar beside Platform One

* Best place to buy books
Foyles (and be sure to look out for the oak doors and slate floor)

* Best place to show off your French
Crepe-affaire

* Best place to buy chocolates
Neuhaus Chocolates in the undercroft

* Best place for a birthday card
Paperchase

* Best place for toys
Hamleys

* Best place for sexy underwear
La Senza

Now... Can the rest of our rail network please be like this? :(

Maglev is significantly more energy-efficient than conventional HSR, and maintenance costs are much lower. Weighing the two options is akin to comparing nuclear power's capital expenditure with gas power's operational costs.

Is that the new Thameslink station below ground to the right in this pic?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1230/1361533030_e806b34351_o.jpg

Amazing station, btw :D

No, I believe that is the Arcade - one of the main retail areas of the station.

I think Ben is correct... I also think the Thameslink is going to be in a seperate section, behind the wall on the right, I can't see where else there would be any space!

http://kingscross.argentgroup.plc.uk/gallery/images/kx-aerial-03.jpg

If you look here, I think it's going under the bit where the yellow crane is, beside the British Library.

This is just an educated (relatively) guess though so don't take my word for it.

EDIT: I think it's at the far left of the "new" station actually!

EDIT: Basically I don't have a clue.

Anyone have photos of what the new extension to the station looks like?

It's always hidden from the spotlight.

I have a feeling something much nicer could of been designed.

It's bland on purpose... They didn't want to "outshine" the old station.

Wouldn't Maglev cost hundreds of billions of dollars? And isn't it an unproven technology?

What is wrong with my ppppunctuatiooon?

"I think it would be better to first get our current railway system running efficeintly (should be "efficiently") rather than going for (should be an "a" here) maglev (should be a comma here) i (should be a capital) mean this must be a joke right (bad grammar, you need a question mark after "right" and a comma after "joke" to make it read properly) I (should be an "It") took me nearly 9 hours to get from (should be a "the" here) east coast of scotland to manchester never again will i (again, this should be a capital letter.) be making that journey by train."

If you want your arguments to have any kind of value then please take time to get some simple grammar right. You can't even hide behind the shield of being a foreigner! Maybe you're dyslexic...

If you look here, I think it's going under the bit where the yellow crane is, beside the British Library.

This is just an educated (relatively) guess though so don't take my word for it.

EDIT: I think it's at the far left of the "new" station actually!

EDIT: Basically I don't have a clue.

Very roughly speaking, the Thameslinkplatforms will stretch from the yellow crane to the yellow hoardings at the bottom of the hotel.

Breathtaking photos... :eek2: Fantastic photos! Magnificent station! GO ENGLAND!!!

Wouldn't Maglev cost hundreds of billions of dollars? And isn't it an unproven technology?
We spend half a trillion dollars every year on offense... er, I mean "defense." Our government's budget is $3 trillion, much of it spent inefficiently. A few hundred billion amortized over a decade is not impractical -- what we lack is ambition, not money. The only thing that makes maglev seem so expensive is all the people thinking it's expensive. What makes it unproven is everyone thinking it's unproven. That's the downside of democracy. Commitment is hard to come by when everyone is a killjoy. (not you specifically, don't mind me :)) In any case, nothing says rail must be profitable. If highways are an enterprise, it's a business that loses nearly $100 billion a year. Measure rail by the same stick as highways, or measure highways by the same stick as rail (would you pay thousands in tolls just to drive?), and rail fares pretty well.

Besides, we're talking about the UK here. Connecting major urban hubs with maglev would be orders of magnitude cheaper in the UK than in the US.

"I think it would be better to first get our current railway system running efficeintly (should be "efficiently") rather than going for (should be an "a" here) maglev (should be a comma here) i (should be a capital) mean this must be a joke right (bad grammar, you need a question mark after "right" and a comma after "joke" to make it read properly) I (should be an "It") took me nearly 9 hours to get from (should be a "the" here) east coast of scotland to manchester never again will i (again, this should be a capital letter.) be making that journey by train."

If you want your arguments to have any kind of value then please take time to get some simple grammar right. You can't even hide behind the shield of being a foreigner! Maybe you're dyslexic...

i think you just have too much time on your hands i actully have a life!

Is there an indoor connection with King's Cross?

looks very nice indeed

Eurostar speeds towards new era despite French strike

LONDON, Nov 13, 2007 (AFP) - Eurostar prepared Tuesday to whizz into a new era with the launch of a fully high-speed link between London and the European continent, insisting it will not be slowed by a French transport strike.

The last Eurostar high-speed train from Paris was set to arrive at London's Waterloo station Tuesday evening, before the service transfers on Wednesday morning to a freshly-renovated new terminus at St Pancras, north of the Thames.

Until now, Eurostar trains, first launched in 1994, have sped across northern France at 300 kilometres (186 miles) per hour, only to slow to a relative crawl on ageing track on the British stretch of the Channel tunnel.

But following the completion of a new stretch of high-speed track, the new trains will whisk passengers between the French and British capitals in two hours and 15 minutes, shaving 20 minutes off the previous time.

Eurostar is preparing celebrations when the first new train arrives Wednesday at St Pancras, which has been transformed from crumbling Victorian terminus into a glitzy new hub to host the new service.

But the launch comes as France is bracing for several days of transport chaos, as railway workers launch an open-ended strike against plans to reform their pensions privileges.

The French national rail network faced major disruption from 8:00 pm (1900 GMT) Tuesday, and from Wednesday morning the shutdown will hit most underground Metro and suburban commuter train lines into Paris.

Eurostar insists its St Pancras launch will go like clockwork, saying it has switched from Anglo-French crews to all-British staff for the inaugural services.

"We are confident that our services will not be disrupted, although passengers taking other forms of public transport after arriving in Paris must be prepared for delays," said a Eurostar spokesman.

The first train from St Pancras to Paris Wednesday will leave London at 1101 GMT, while the first arrival from Paris will be at 1109 GMT. The last train from Waterloo to Paris was due to leave Tuesday at 1809 GMT.

The 5.8-billion-pound (8.4-billion-euro, 12-billion-dollar) transformation comes following the completion of a 68-mile (109-kilometre) section of high-speed line, dubbed High Speed 1, on the British side.

Waterloo, named after an 1815 battle in which Britain defeated French leader Napoleon Bonaparte, is architecturally uninspiring and crowded, with cramped waiting rooms and two tiny cafes providing scant welcome.

St Pancras, a red-brick Gothic revival masterpiece, which only a few years ago was crumbling into disrepair, has been restored to its former glory with new additions including the world's longest champagne bar and chic boutiques.

"A 21st century station will be replacing a station from the 1980s," said Guillaume Pepy, chairman of Eurostar, whose advertisements highlighting the switch carried the slogan "Forget Waterloo".

In Britain, where the railways are something of a national joke due to frequent overcrowding and delays, the opening of the new St Pancras terminal is being viewed as a dual opportunity.

As well as making the trip easier for existing customers, Eurostar hopes it will open up train travel to continental Europe to people living in central and northern England and Scotland.

Very roughly speaking, the Thameslinkplatforms will stretch from the yellow crane to the yellow hoardings at the bottom of the hotel.

:okay:

Thameslink forms part of the new glass extension at St Pancras (see CharlieP's Post) and will open next month.

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/img/projects/kx_spwest.jpg

St Pancras spent £800 million becoming a destination in it's self, meanwhile Kings Cross (next door to St Pancras) spent £30 on an old sign and shoved an old luggage trolley in to a wall to become a tourist destination. That's a saving of £799,000,970. :lol:

Kings Cross

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/71/200922262_bed267b8a4_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1140/826726204_0d83c5188b_o.jpg

http://www.imgpotter.com/data/media/399/danplatform934.jpg

Is there an indoor connection with King's Cross? Only if you include the link via the King's Cross St Pancras Tube station. I imagine most people will just walk above ground though.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/bbc_logo.gif

Final call for Waterloo Eurostar

BBC News

13 November 2007

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7092104.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44237000/jpg/_44237225_couple300.jpg
Eurostar services will now terminate at St Pancras

The last Eurostar train out of London Waterloo has left, almost exactly 13 years after the first.
From Wednesday St Pancras, recently refurbished at a cost of £800m, will become the new home of high-speed rail services to the continent.

Waterloo's award-winning terminal is expected to be used to take the burden off existing services to Surrey.

The first Eurostar left Waterloo on 14 November 1994 and the last departed at 1812 GMT on 13 November.

The £130m station, with its striking snaking glass roof and designed by Nicholas Grimshaw, was widely admired.

Waterloo Station - London.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2865114.ece

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1133/1225156307_0bb94404c0_b.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Waterloo1.jpg?t=1194990416

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Waterloo_3_2504071.jpg?t=1194991124

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Waterloo4.jpg?t=1194991244

i think you just have too much time on your hands i actully have a life!

I have a life, thanks for your concern. Your mistakes were so obvious and numerous that they could be spotted within a millisecond ;)

Is there an indoor connection with King's Cross?

There might be one when King's Cross is renovated by 2009, a further ticket hall is being constructed at the tube stations which could link the two stations.

Extended Video Tour of the New St Pancras

http://www.stpancras.com/vgallery.aspx

Eurostar says goodbye to Waterloo International

LONDON, Nov 13 (Reuters) - London's Waterloo station buzzed with music and dance on Tuesday as Eurostar marked the end of 13 years of high-speed train services to the continent and prepared to move across town to the newly restored St Pancras station.

A huge banner read "Goodbye to all our friends at Waterloo ... Hello St Pancras" while music, dance and theatre groups performed in the departures hall to an audience of Eurostar travellers and intrigued onlookers.

"It's like a surprise farewell party for the staff," said Celine Cognard, 31, who works in customer services for Eurostar and danced along to the music. "Nobody here knew this was going to happen."

The party, named "Waterloo Sunset" after the 60s' song written by The Kinks about the station, also surprised passengers, some of whom had booked months in advance to take one of the last Eurostar trains from Waterloo.

"I wasn't expecting this at all -- it's great," said Frances Cui, 53, an accountant and train enthusiast watching the Waterloo festivities. "I got shares in the (Channel tunnel operator) Eurotunnel initially and took the Eurostar soon after it opened."

Since services began in November 1994, Eurostar has carried over 81 million travellers from the award-winning Waterloo International terminal, designed by prominent British architect Nicholas Grimshaw.

The service began with two trains a day between Brussels and Paris and now operates up to 17 daily services to Paris and up to 10 daily services to Brussels.

Passengers and staff said they would miss the Waterloo International terminal but were eager to travel through St Pancras station after its 800 million pound facelift.

"I think Waterloo International was sensational when it opened and St Pancras is now," said David Green, 59, who regularly takes Eurostar on business trips.

The upgrade of St Pancras station, about three miles north of Waterloo, cost 10 billion pounds and includes a high speed rail line that will cut journey times to Paris by 20 minutes.

The red-brick gothic station was originally completed during Queen Victoria's reign in 1876. It now contains Europe's longest champagne bar at 93 metres and no fast food restaurants.

The architects of St Pancras hope their elegantly restored station will offer a more stylish, romantic point of departure and arrival. (Editing by Golnar Motevalli)

Sadly the French Railways are on strike. :lol:

Still we have had plenty of time over the years to get used to French Strikes :lol:









:)

Facts and figures on London-Paris rail link

LONDON, Nov 13, 2007 (AFP) - A new high-speed Eurostar rail service between London, Paris and Brussels, which shaves 20 minutes off the previous fastest time, will carry its first public passengers Wednesday.

The train link, which connects Britain and continental Europe via the Channel Tunnel, carries around eight million passengers per year. Here are some key facts and figures:

CAME INTO SERVICE: November 1994

MAIN DESTINATIONS: London, Paris and Brussels

TRAVEL TIMES: Two hours 15 minutes between Paris and London, one hour and 51 minutes between Brussels and London and one hour 20 minutes between Lille and London from November 14.

SPEED: 300 kilometres (186 miles) per hour.

RECORDS: Paris-London in two hours and three minutes and Brussels-London in one hour 43 minutes in September.

TRACK: The High Speed 1 section of the track, recently completed on the British side and which allows the reduction in travel time, is 109 kilometres long and cost 5.8 billion pounds (8.4 billion euros, 12 billion dollars).

Full Steam Ahead now with the London Kings Cross Redvelopment due for completion in 2012.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Kings_Cross_station_11.jpg?t=1195058082

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Kings_Cross_station_31.jpg?t=1195058234

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Kings_Cross_station_21.jpg?t=1195058293

Work has also started on the Redevelopment of Cannon Street Station in the City of London.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Cannon_Street_high_res1.jpg?t=1195058343

Euston Station is also to be redeveloped.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Euston-Interior-Colour1.jpg?t=1195058426

Another glorious London Station - Brunel's Paddington Station - part of the GWR, a UN World Heritage Site.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Paddington-Brunel_Exhibition1_00161.jpg?t=1195059098

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2391/1580940627_6ee7bf9d21_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1103/1355104472_7b05216d68_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1327/1137385835_c201d72b97_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1326/1354147201_8d3a74c8b8_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1056/1453462191_a2a1cdd3a2_b.jpg

A couple more of London's numerous stations.

London's Victoria Station

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1253/1421812165_3ea51235c9_b.jpg

Fenchurch Street Station - London

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/454155024_b117761024_b.jpg

London's Liverpool Street Station

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Liverpool_Street_station_exterior_night.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/144/343227226_44814d0538_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/337720327_c14b4133d7_b.jpg

London's Charing Cross Station

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1316/748035066_3edbced6be_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/73/219230142_fd931b7c76_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/78/185667215_4e548026fb_b.jpg

Marylebone Station - London

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1059/532183051_5050088998_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/199991683_a21e8cdbb7_o.jpg

Couple of UK Network Rail Pics

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/1.jpg?t=1195060637

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/2.jpg?t=1195060561

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/3.jpg?t=1195060697

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/SignalLRTPcover1.jpg?t=1195060768

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Train_Blurr1.jpg?t=1195060813

The London Bridge Station Redevelopment

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image7.jpg

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image1.jpg

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image2.jpg

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image3.jpg

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image4.jpg

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image5.jpg

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image6.jpg

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image8.jpg

Blackfriars Station Redevelopment

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/images/060706_blackfriars.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/New_Blackfriars_NIGHT1.jpg?t=1195063924


:)

Another glorious London Station - Brunel's St Pancras - part of the GWR, a UN World Heritage Site.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Paddington-Brunel_Exhibition1_00161.jpg?t=1195059098


I think you mean Brunel's Paddington! :D

I think you mean Brunel's Paddington! :D

Yes I did - I have St Pancras on the brain, and the half a bottle of wine didn't help. :lol:

Thanks for noticing it, and I have corrected it :okay:

New Facilities at Stratford in East London.

Stratford Station

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/75303798_2244ebaf99_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/71/222433419_8152026f85_b.jpg

Stratford International part of the 2012 Olympics site.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/391074904_3e41ed1cac_b.jpg

The Giant £400 million Eurostar Depot at Temple Mills in Stratford - East London is now open.

http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisure/about_eurostar/press_release/2007_10_02_depot_east.jsp



http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/ctrl.jpg?t=1195081195















:)

New Hitachi Olympic and London/Kent - Javelin Trains

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/javelin.jpg

The New Hitachi Train Depot at Ashford in Kent

http://www.robtaylorplanthireltd.co.uk/finished.JPG

http://www.robtaylorplanthireltd.co.uk/Hitachi%20Ashford%20Train%20Care.JPG

great stations in London

Britain-Europe rail link zooms into new era

LONDON, Nov 14, 2007 (AFP) - High-speed rail travel between Britain and continental Europe zoomed into a new era Wednesday as Eurostar trains began operating from a newly-renovated glitzy London hub.

The first Eurostar left St. Pancras station for Paris on time shortly after 1100 GMT and arrived just before 1315 GMT, while the popping of champagne corks awaited the first Eurostar arriving from Brussels a few minutes later.

While transport strikes gripped France, Britain's rail chiefs were celebrating for once, with the working debut of St. Pancras International after a sweeping transformation from a fading Victorian relic into a swanky terminal.

"Today marks a new dawn for short-haul travel in Europe," said Eurostar chief executive Richard Brown. "We will carry passengers with greater speed, ease and reliability than ever before."

The first train was named Tread Lightly, after Eurostar's environmentally-friendly "green" campaign aimed at cutting its carbon dioxide emissions by 25 percent by 2012.

Representatives from green group Friends of the Earth were among those travelling on the train and executive director Tony Juniper said the launch was "the first step towards making short-haul flights a thing of the past."

The new London station opened to the public at 0900 GMT, a day after services stopped at Waterloo, the station on the south side of central London which has been the British end of the line since services began in 1994.

The switch to St. Pancras, on the north side, will make it easier for passengers from the English Midlands, northern England and Scotland to connect to the continent.

"Our move to St Pancras makes Eurostar even more accessible to travellers across Britain," Brown said.

The move is the culmination of a 5.8-billion-pound (12.1-billion-dollar, 8.3-billion-euro), 10-year project to speed up travel to France and Belgium from Britain.

The new 68-mile (109-kilometre) High Speed 1 rail line between St. Pancras and the tunnel under the English Channel enables Eurostar trains to hit their full speed of 300 kilometres (190 miles) per hour.

It cuts journey times by at least 20 minutes and now links London with Paris in two hours, 15 minutes, and with Brussels in one hour, 51 minutes.

Instead of rolling in from the coast then clunking over the grimy railway arches of south London, passengers will speed underground across the capital after whizzing through the Kent countryside.

While it was all change in London, commuters faced delays and disruption on arriving in Paris, as France suffered transport chaos with the start of an open-ended strike by railway workers.

Though Eurostar insisted its services would be unaffected, the strike badly affected the French national rail network and commuter lines as well as the capital's transport system.

Rail enthusiast Anthony Broughton, 69, from Derby in the English Midlands, was part of a 30-strong party from the Derby Railway Engineering Society getting on the first Brussels train.

"This was booked a long time ago to ensure we were here today," he said.

"I think the new station is fantastic. It's amazing. They have done a good job refurbishing and restructuring and the new parts blend well with the old ones."

Queen Elizabeth II and her husband Prince Philip unveiled the new-look St. Pancras on November 6.

It has been kitted out with Wifi, touchscreen monitors and passenger information screens. It also hosts Europe's biggest champagne bar -- 90 metres (295 feet) long -- along with a plethora of upmarket boutiques.

The station, built in 1868, was a long-neglected Victorian Gothic revival masterpiece. But nearly 140 years of dirt has been scraped from the station's brickwork during the 800-million-pound restoration.

^^ Makes me wonder where the "worlds" longest champagne bar is?

The British and French governments agreed to provide immigration staff at opposite ends of the tunnel; thus the French immigration control posts are located in the United Kingdom, while the British ones are in France.

This leads occasionally to unusual incidents, for example when a French police officer wandered into the non-international part of Waterloo station while carrying a firearm.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/06/ngun06.xml

In the 1990s, the French authorities tried to arrest a French national working in the British terminal at Folkestone who had been evading French military service.

The new St Pancras International Area will also be patrolled by both British and French Police and Immigration Authorities.

The new £100 million Ebbsfleet International in Kent opens this Sunday (Nov 18th).

The station has over 2500 car parking spaces, and will form part of the giant new Thames Gateway Scheme,
the largest regeneration scheme in Europe.

Ebbsfleet International Station - Kent - England

http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/content/images/2006/09/12/ebbsfleet_2006_470x355.jpg

Where did King's Cross' suburban platforms (9-12) go in those renders?

Great pictures, Jaeger.

London has some very beautiful stations. :)

Great pictures, Jaeger.

London has some very beautiful stations. :)


:okay:

Where did King's Cross' suburban platforms (9-12) go in those renders?

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/47

A new western concourse (next to the proposed northern ticket hall entrance to the Underground and outside suburban platforms 9-11) will be constructed to replace the existing cramped southern concourse, which was built in the 1970s, and was only meant to be temporary.

I went to St Pancras after work, very nice building.

Took a few snaps.

http://winstainforth10.foliosnap.com/?goto=stpancraspaddingtonstation&thumbs=ok

i think you just have too much time on your hands i actully have a life!

Why would you request an explanation of your mistakes then? You should have admitted your mistakes in the first place, not requested an explanation so that you could use the fact that someone has responded to your request for an explanation as an opportunity to diss them. That's quite sneaky.

I went to St Pancras after work, very nice building.

Took a few snaps.

http://winstainforth10.foliosnap.com/?goto=stpancraspaddingtonstation&thumbs=ok

Great pics of St Pancras and Paddington winstainforth :okay: :cheers:

For anyone unfamiliar with London, this map gives a rough idea of the station locations. :)

http://www.johomaps.com/eu/ire_uk/uk/london/londonmetro.jpg

The new High Speed 1 Channel Tunnel Rail Link.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/144130/165189/256478/CTRL_route.jpg

We spend half a trillion dollars every year on offense... er, I mean "defense." Our government's budget is $3 trillion, much of it spent inefficiently. A few hundred billion amortized over a decade is not impractical -- what we lack is ambition, not money. The only thing that makes maglev seem so expensive is all the people thinking it's expensive. What makes it unproven is everyone thinking it's unproven. That's the downside of democracy. Commitment is hard to come by when everyone is a killjoy. (not you specifically, don't mind me :)) In any case, nothing says rail must be profitable. If highways are an enterprise, it's a business that loses nearly $100 billion a year. Measure rail by the same stick as highways, or measure highways by the same stick as rail (would you pay thousands in tolls just to drive?), and rail fares pretty well.

Besides, we're talking about the UK here. Connecting major urban hubs with maglev would be orders of magnitude cheaper in the UK than in the US.
While I can certainly agree it would be billions, actually 10s of billions, but not 100s of billions for the line in question. It might reach the singular - 100billion, but I doubt it to be honest. This thing isn't going to built all underground or something similarly ludicrous.

While I can certainly agree it would be billions, actually 10s of billions, but not 100s of billions for the line in question. It might reach the singular - 100billion, but I doubt it to be honest. This thing isn't going to built all underground or something similarly ludicrous.


To give alittle more substance to the argument here is something I posted in another thread.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16347514&postcount=14

It show how much the extension of approx. 20 Km of the present test track costed with additional costs on trainsets for testing as well.

To give alittle more substance to the argument here is something I posted in another thread.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16347514&postcount=14

It show how much the extension of approx. 20 Km of the present test track costed with additional costs on trainsets for testing as well.Exactly. For a second I thought you were disagreeing me :lol::cheers:

Work has also started on the Redevelopment of Cannon Street Station in the City of London.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Cannon_Street_high_res1.jpg?t=1195058343

Euston Station is also to be redeveloped.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h143/warwickhunt03/Euston-Interior-Colour1.jpg?t=1195058426

Great. Cannon street needs an overhaul, not to mention Euston which currently certainly is the ugliest station in London.

The London Bridge Station Redevelopment

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image7.jpg

http://www.tpbennett.co.uk/images/projects/project13_image1.jpg


Is that a renovation or will an entirely new London Bridge station be built?

While I can certainly agree it would be billions, actually 10s of billions, but not 100s of billions for the line in question. It might reach the singular - 100billion, but I doubt it to be honest. This thing isn't going to built all underground or something similarly ludicrous.

Wait untill the NIMBY's have their say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait untill the NIMBY's have their say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Given that the alignment they have in mind is going to minimize that threat, I wouldn't expect much from them.

Wouldn't the local community support somthing that will enhance their quality of life?
I mean it is not a nuclear power plant or anything and has almost 0 emission (except for minimal electro-magnetic emmision and noise) so what in the hell are the people going to be against?
In return anyone living near a station is bound to gain benefit from a rejuvenated commerce from the station.

Is that a renovation or will an entirely new London Bridge station be built?

http://www.newlondonarchitecture.org/project.php?id=302


Client: Network Rail
Location: London SE1
Size: 750,000sq ft

This 12 acre scheme for London Bridge Station was developed following a masterplanning study prepared by tp bennett architects. The study was based on a thorough appraisal of urban design, town planning, rights to light and commercial viability, and provided Network Rail with clear, concise recommendations for the redevelopment of the station.

The design scheme fundamentally reconfigures and enlarges the existing station, providing for 50% uplift in passenger numbers. It also incorporates a major new retail concourse and a landmark air rights office building above the station. bennett urban planning provided town planning advice and coordinated an extraordinarily large consultation exercise necessary to accommodate the views of the many local interest groups and interested national bodies. The scheme gained detailed planning and listed building consent :)


Thameslink - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thameslink_Programme

London Overground - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Overground

Crossrail - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail

London Transport Projects - http://www.alwaystouchout.com/





:)

Wouldn't the local community support somthing that will enhance their quality of life?
I mean it is not a nuclear power plant or anything and has almost 0 emission (except for minimal electro-magnetic emmision and noise) so what in the hell are the people going to be against?
In return anyone living near a station is bound to gain benefit from a rejuvenated commerce from the station.

I mean, like, it's some hideous fricken EYESORE, it's like, yeh-hah, duuuh!

:nuts:

They're NIMBY's... please don't treat them like people who would listen to reason :lol:

Waterloo Stations International Platforms will be refurbishment and reopened next year by South West Trains.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-14714414-details/End+of+the+line+for+Waterloo%27s+Eurostars/article.do

Waterloo International

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/11_02/1WaterlooES_800x402.jpg

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/v5/images/newspaper/20071117/sectionT-490.jpg?d=20071117

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/v5/images/newspaper/20071117/sectionT-490.jpg?d=20071117

Are we supposed to be able to read that?....

Are we supposed to be able to read that?....

You can read it here, if you want to read it so much.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071117.TRAIN17/TPStory/Entertainment/columnists

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2309/2038129599_392f333c2c_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2419/2038649858_4affd78ea7_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2240/2040533304_725ae270fc_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2032/2039067284_f38eedb876_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2198/2039065668_d69088ed35_b.jpg

Great pictures of St Pancras, but so far I havn't seen any of the extension part. Is it that boring?

'Fraid so.

Great pictures of St Pancras, but so far I havn't seen any of the extension part. Is it that boring?

To be honest there are not that many pics of inside the extension and basicaly it's just home to long platforms. The station does have a nice retail area
though, and the Midland Grand Hotel is undergoing refurbishment. The Midland was one of the most famous and most extravagant Victorian Hotels,
and it will be incredible when it re-opens in two years time.

http://www.sleepermagazine.co.uk/Sleeper/Summer06/db_pancras.htm

Some photos of the Midland Grand at St Pancras which is being restored, whilst the Manhattan Loft Corporation are also
making part of the vast structure in to apartments.

http://www.urban75.org/london/thumbs.html

http://www.stpancraschambers.co.uk/


http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0708/postcards_st_pancras_0827.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2032/2039067284_f38eedb876_b.jpg

Great threat, wonderful pics of London's beautiful stations! :okay:

On the first page you can see a Eurostar and a new domestric HST standing side-to-side under the St. Pancras shed, but I suppose in normal operation there is a strict seperation between int'l and domestric trains, just like there was at Waterloo?

What will happen to the Waterloo E* platforms, BTW?

While I can certainly agree it would be billions, actually 10s of billions, but not 100s of billions for the line in question. It might reach the singular - 100billion, but I doubt it to be honest. This thing isn't going to built all underground or something similarly ludicrous.
Oh, for the UK, certainly. My hundreds-of-billions figure was for hypothetical long-distance lines in NA, not in the UK. ;)

While I can certainly agree it would be billions, actually 10s of billions, but not 100s of billions for the line in question. It might reach the singular - 100billion, but I doubt it to be honest. This thing isn't going to built all underground or something similarly ludicrous


the Iraq war costed the US some estimated 1600 billion $.

800 billion $ officially and senate approved, and furhter 800 billion $ of costs, that came out of the rising oil price and all other unexpected consequences.

Taking the price for the Shanghai maglev of 25mio$ per kilometer, you would get 32 000 km of 500kmh maglev line for 800 billion $
With that ammount of maglev lines you would be abe to criss cross all of northern america, even the smallest vilage in Montana could get a maglev access....

Oh, for the UK, certainly. My hundreds-of-billions figure was for hypothetical long-distance lines in NA, not in the UK. ;)

In that case we're on the same page. Sorry for staying on topic :lol:

Great threat, wonderful pics of London's beautiful stations! :okay:

On the first page you can see a Eurostar and a new domestric HST standing side-to-side under the St. Pancras shed, but I suppose in normal operation there is a strict seperation between int'l and domestric trains, just like there was at Waterloo?

What will happen to the Waterloo E* platforms, BTW?

:okay:

The Waterloo Eurostar platforms are to be refurbished over the next year before being taken over by South West Trains. :)

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-14714414-details/End+of+the+line+for+Waterloo%27s+Eurostars/article.do

The Hitachi Javelin Domestic HST's will be used to provide services for the 2012 Olympic and on Domestic Routes from Kent,
and some of these new services will use the new St Pancras Domestic Station (part of the new extension).

Hitachi have also made the shorlist for the Intercity Replacement Programme (2012)

http://www.ticketworks.co.uk/1/replacement_for_the_high_speed_train_moves_closer_1187638121/




:)

Hopefully the future will see direct Sleeper Trains from St Pancras to a host of European Destinations. At present you have to change at Paris or Brussels in order to take
Sleeper Trains to Italy and Southern Europe or Germany and Eastern Europe.

Plans for European Sleeper from 2008/9 - http://www.railwatch.org.uk/backtrack/rw098/rw098p10.pdf

Currently there are two UK Domestic Sleeper Services - The Caledonian Sleeper from London to Scotland and the Night Riviera Sleeper from London to Penzance in Cornwall.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/f/f2/317px-Calsleep.png

http://www.firstgroup.com/scotrail/content/caledoniansleeper/index.php

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=1555

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/179724312_22e58b9089_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2180/1717173048_c3a09ca2c1_b.jpg

Standard Train Cabin - Caledonian Sleeper Service

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1307/1289316146_7e392aa841_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1383/1289344036_f176b1e833_o.jpg

The Night Ferry Train was also a well known sleeper service from London to Paris and Brussels.

http://www.dover-kent.co.uk/transport/night_ferry.htm

http://www.dover-kent.co.uk/transport/images/pic_night_ferry_poster.jpg




The UK has an array of overnight ferries to Europe, from Edinburgh (Rosyth), Newcastle, Hull and Harwich across the North Sea, from the south coast of England to parts of France and Spain
and from the West Coast there is a night ferry to Ireland.

Most modern ferries have bars, nightclubs, casinos, cinemas, restaurants and many other facilities, and there is a lot more to do than on a sleeper train.

http://www.lefkas.net/images/Maps/uk-france.gif

Overnight Ferry.

http://www.oslosurf.com/oslobilder/albums/userpics/10001/dfds_seaways.jpg

Basic Standard Ferry Cabin

http://www.ldlines.co.uk/img/121_32-cabin-single.jpg

Commodore Ferry Cabins (First Class)

http://www.brittany-ferries.fr/media/gallery_images/0/o/M_Commodore.JPG

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1173/1316184198_bcabaf815a_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1407/559552026_f059dd33b4_b.jpg

Well, the new platforms are not so nice, but the rest of the station is amazing!
:eek:

Well, the new platforms are not so nice, but the rest of the station is amazing!
:eek:

The extension was designed by Norman Foster and is mainly used for domestic services in the UK - the extension is functional
and does not detract or try to compete with the magnificent original architecture.

Link to a good article about the new station by Jonathan Glancey of The Guardian,

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/architecture/story/0,,2188570,00.html


The New Thameslink at St Pancras

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=77








:)

Finally managed to take some pictures and put them up.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2129/2044212076_52900e90e2.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2367/2043414237_166c164aee.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2312/2043414615_c8d27d293f.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2335/2044208652_699a20e374.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2284/2044208184_96087151e2.jpg?v=0
From underneath the big statue.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2005/2044207838_d77da1e822.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2002/2044137082_6a57926dd3.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2149/2043333119_59367fe23d.jpg?v=0

I went to St Pancras after work, very nice building.

Took a few snaps.

http://winstainforth10.foliosnap.com/?goto=stpancraspaddingtonstation&thumbs=ok

Beautiful shots. I also like some of your other galleries as well - you like trains and underground stations, huh?

I'm assuming you lug around a tripod to get most of your shots - no one gives you any grief about that? How much of your work do you edit in Photoshop?

beautiful shots of St Pancras international this is what a Railway Station should be now people come out of there like gods now

but i want to ask people here can anybody put pics of the Phase 2 and Phase 1 of High Speed 1 please i don't mind if its boring and why people say its boring the Phases of the CTRL? the Eurostar is faster now and this is what High Speed Rail should be

^^ this is a good start http://www.lcrhq.co.uk/ (if you can get the website to work!!)

China is not a good comparison for construction costs. Labour is cheap and planning is easy.

Great pics sweek :okay:

China is not a good comparison for construction costs. Labour is cheap and planning is easy.

I'd have to agree strongly on this one. $60-90M/km is what I've heard for other estimates in the west and Japan (60 for Germany, 90 for Japan's Linimo).

the Iraq war costed the US some estimated 1600 billion $.

800 billion $ officially and senate approved, and furhter 800 billion $ of costs, that came out of the rising oil price and all other unexpected consequences.

Taking the price for the Shanghai maglev of 25mio$ per kilometer, you would get 32 000 km of 500kmh maglev line for 800 billion $
With that ammount of maglev lines you would be abe to criss cross all of northern america, even the smallest vilage in Montana could get a maglev access....


Sure, but everything seems cheap compared to the cost of war. And a maglev will not appeal as a first priority to many people. There is health-care, education, environment that can more easily get a huge chunk of the money and maybe more reasonably so. Last but not least the excess expenditures to cover war-costs may never happen again after the end of it. The country and taxpayers need a relief. Not paying and paying for ever.

official website says:


http://www.transrapid.de/basics/pics/praesentation/en/21.gif

Sure, but everything seems cheap compared to the cost of war. And a maglev will not appeal as a first priority to many people.
That is part of the problem right there: psychology. It's like when a husband spends all the family savings on a new BMW, and tells his wife afterwards. Similarly, the Iraq occupation is an unnecessary "war" where the funds could've gone to so many other places. Another problem is that infrastructure is not sexy. People would rather have taxcuts or handouts rather than construction because, by nature, the majority of people stink at grasping the big picture.

Last of all, maglev is not necessarily more expensive than conventional HSR. Operating costs are significantly lower due to the lack of mechanical wear.

Another problem is that infrastructure is not sexy. People would rather have taxcuts or handouts rather than construction because, by nature, the majority of people stink at grasping the big picture.


IMO thats the biggest problem for big infrastrucutre investements in the US ( what maglev definately is...)

But if you take a look at europe or Asia, especially at Japan, and also what is being constructed in China right now, Infrastrucutre is one of the most "sexy" things, a nation can build.

Good highways, railways, huge bridges and perfectly clean, modern and convenient subway systems are a sign of realy modern civilisation...

The official website will obviously back up their product. Currently, any maglev is overly expensive. And since they are incompatible with the rest of the network this makes them a very difficult investment. This is a network product and protocol, so compatibilty means a lot. There is huge capital invested in the current railway infrastructure and the surrounding operations. This means big political pressure as well from large and established companies (though Transrapid belongs to SIEMENS and Thyssenkrupp and that certainly helps). So, if maglev doesn't become really cost competitive it will hardly get any portion of the pie.

The Shanghai maglev, built by Transrapid, cost 1.33bil$ (so let's say ~1bill€ back then). This is over 33mill€/km. The current ridership just covers the operating cost and not capital expenditures.

And I would expect the construction costs to be really higher in Germany rather than in China.

And I would expect the construction costs to be really higher in Germany rather than in China.It is about double based on the Munich Airport proposal.

The DfT have officially disregarded Maglev anyway, citing that the proponents of such a system underestimate the risks involved.

http://www.transrapid.de/basics/pics/praesentation/en/21.gif

The fundemental problem with this comparison is this:


For the recent Cologne - Frankfurt line, where do the trains actually go?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/ICE_Network.png

It connects high speed trains from Essen/Dortmund to many other places. It also connects to the French LGV Est. To provide these services minimal work is required to get the trains into the center of the cities - the lines already exist.

If Maglev wants to replace the current railway, whatever absurd facts and figures the Maglev industry come up with, it is simply 150 years too late.

I have a life, thanks for your concern. Your mistakes were so obvious and numerous that they could be spotted within a millisecond ;)

No problem thanks for your compliment



Why would you request an explanation of your mistakes then? You should have admitted your mistakes in the first place, not requested an explanation so that you could use the fact that someone has responded to your request for an explanation as an opportunity to diss them. That's quite sneaky.

And you poking your nose into others business is also god damn sneaky. This suggest you maybe suffer from the same disease as your freind so the question is do YOU have a life well do you punk?