So the much needed electrification of routes out of Manchester will after all take place, despite the Spending Review, though there is some anger that the time for the work has been extended so that it won't be finished until 2016 at the earliest.

More details here:

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/public_transport/s/1375312_trains_to_get_more_carriages_in_rail_boost
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/11/25/liverpool-manchester-railway-electrification-to-finish-by-2016-three-years-late-100252-27715777/
http://www.madeinpreston.co.uk/wp/2009/12/14/manchester-preston-blackpool-electrification/

There's also a generic SSC Rail Electrification thread here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1016189&highlight=electrification

But with both Crossrail and Thameslink now fully committed to, what do forummers think about the balance of where rail investment money is going?

Should the North West be counting its blessings to get any money at all?
:cheers:

Or is infrastructure investment still too heavily skewed to the South East?
:bash:

And what's happening with that proposed "Northern Hub" at Piccadilly?
:nuts:

Electrification


9. On the Great Western Main Line, the Government is confirming today that the lines between London and Didcot, Oxford and Newbury will be electrified. In the North West, the routes between Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and Blackpool will be electrified. In more detail, that will include:

· Liverpool to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows

· Huyton to Wigan

· Preston to Blackpool

· Manchester to Preston

Pretty handy when it's done!

And what's happening with that proposed "Northern Hub" at Piccadilly?
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-11-11a.23464.h

Network Rail is developing the Northern Hub plans and will complete the next stage in spring 2011. We then expect Network Rail to include the Northern Hub in its initial strategic business plan.

This will enable us to consider in 2012 whether a Northern Hub scheme can be funded and what progress can be made on the project during the next Network Rail control period (2014-15 to 2019-20).

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-11-11a.23464.h

mmmmm - sounds like a bit of a fudge eh?

Bet they'll quietly drop this, leaving congestion problems in Piccadilly throat - bit like the way all transport investment outside the capital gets stuck in the throat! :lol:

Better than nothing, IMO.

Most travel by heavy rail is skewed towards London & South East, so obviously spend the money where it has most benefit.

We will see the benefits starting 2013, when Manchester - Scotland services convert to newbuild EMU traction and run fast Wigan - Manchester.

Portion working could be introduced, making better use of existing capacity.

Build the fourth platform at MIA, but build it with enough length to allow stock to work in multiple.

Instead of having 3tph (of the 5tph) shuttling between Manchester and Leeds, run them as 1tph, split at Leeds/York to diverge to other destinations.

Scarborough and Hull could see direct services to Manchester Airport restored.

Longer trains = more seats = less dwell time = better performance/punctuality.

Metrolink tram-train to Marple will also relieve Ashburys East Junction.

Does anyone have a map showing all the railway lines in Greater Manchester geographically - and shows which lines are electrified and which are about to become electrified under these plans?

It would be greatly appreciated!

Heres an older one, scatch off from this the Midlands Main Line and electrification of the Great Western west of Oxford turning.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/UK-Electrification.jpg

Cheers Watcher. Wow you realise what a pathetically low amount of G. Manchester's network is electrified. I know some of it got transferred to Metrolink in 1992, but even so.

Don't forget the loss of Holcombe Brook - Bury (3500v overhead DC, then 1200v third-rail DC), and loss of Woodhead line from Hadfield to Sheffield Victoria/Wath-upon-Dearne, plus various bits around Gorton, Reddish, Ashton, too!

The rump of the Woodhead route electrified between Piccadilly and Hadfield/Glossop is missing off that map - as for Ashton, you can still see old Overhead Gantries near Ikea and also in Dukinfield - a last legacy of the 1500VDC system...

Assuming current service patterns, this scheme would allow the following services to be electrified:

Liverpool Lime St - Manchester Airport (via Newton-le-Willows)
Liverpool Lime St - Manchester Victoria
Liverpool Lime St - Warrington Bank Quay (not the extensions to Ellesmere Port though)
Liverpool Lime St - Wigan North Western/Preston/Blackpool

Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh
Manchester Airport - Blackpool North

Hazel Grove - Preston

London Euston - Blackpool North

--

Bits that would be diesel under the wires include North Wales services, fast services between Liverpool and Manchester that continue to Yorkshire and East Midlands destinations, Manchester to Southport, Blackburn, Barrow and Lake District services. One would imagine that Buxton services would terminate at Piccadilly once again instead of continuing through to Blackpool North.

Modern Railways magazine suggests that electrification of Crewe-Chester and Oxenholme-Windermere would be relatively simple add-ons that could make better utilisation of electric rolling stock.

Better than nothing, IMO.

Most travel by heavy rail is skewed towards London & South East, so obviously spend the money where it has most benefit.



I think I’d take issue with that .. the reason more people travel by train in London is because they have more bloody trains !!
Manchester train passenger numbers are lower not because fewer people want to use the train, but because we have a miserable little fleet of hand-me-down old bangers that are not fit for use anywhere else.
Spending the money in the southeast will only serve to increase that gap and perpetuate the cycle.

agreed SOMtastic - went into Manchester from Romiley (and return) on saturday - both journeys were an absolute nightmare on a crappy old two coach Pacer bus-train - totally rammed plus standing - no chance to pay in either direction either due to this ...

Hence why Metrolink to Marple is the solution, rather than just 'wiring up'.

There is no point buying heavy, well specced 100mph rolling stock for suburban routes with stations 2 minutes apart, if you don't have the frequency, ticketing and accessibility/city-centre penetration.

Otherwise, like South London heavy suburban rail, as in Manchester, it will be carrying virtually 'fresh air' off-peak.

Outside the peaks 323s (Glossop/Hadfield route) are a massive waste of over capacity that could be put to better use elsewhere.

Outside the peaks 323s (Glossop/Hadfield route) are a massive waste of over capacity that could be put to better use elsewhere.

I suppose by implication you’re saying that they are not a massive waste during peak times ?? That being the case - where would you propose deploying off peak ? - given that everywhere else is likely to have similar demand periods.
In other words I don’t think you can escape the fact that trains or any other transport for that matter are likely to carry “fresh air” about off-peak.... Unless you can somehow bolt on capacity quickly and easily as and when required.
But that sounds like a ball-ache to me, and it would probably be cheaper to simply run big semi-empty trains, rather than faff about... Depends on what the cost of running empty carriages is I guess ... more power obviously, and maintenance contracts .. are they based on mileage or simply time ? insurance ??
That needs to be off set against storage areas .. ie sidings .. and the staff required to hook up, prepare, and disconnect the extra bits, extra manoeuvring traffic to/from sidings and so on.
In other words - with my extremely limited knowledge of the vagaries of the rail industry - it seems far from clear cut as to whether any significant cost benefits can be gained through dynamic capacity management.

Granted - the facilities in this part of the world take inadequate to a whole new level ... Todmorden station doesn’t even have a clock FFS - let alone a ticket machine, or electronic displays. and Victoria is nothing short of a national embarrassment.. but that doesn’t prohibit substantially more rolling stock - shabby or other wise. Literally anything would be an improvement. Pretty much every morning, there’s no point my train even stopping at the 3 stations after Rochdale as no-one can get on.
More passengers = more revenue and more footfall in the stations = command of higher retail rental = improvements to stations = more dwel time = more revenue = more improvements and so-on. Add more capacity and it becomes a virtuous cycle.

Simply chucking more money at the south on the grounds that there are more train users seems - well - a bit daft.. It’s like chucking more money at successful schools on the grounds that they attract more pupils !

Granted - the facilities in this part of the world take inadequate to a whole new level ... Todmorden station doesn’t even have a clock FFS - let alone a ticket machine, or electronic displays...

Eccles is just as bad. No displays or clock. It has some bus shelters, some lights and some planters done by the 'Friends' of the station. Oh and a tiny portakabin barely open half the day selling tickets, which I believe elevates it to a status higher than Patricroft.... will these stations get upgraded when the 'modern age' with its electrickery come along?

On the other hand, where my Dad lives darn sarf in a town not to disimilar in size to Eccles it has three platforms, proper canopies, a ticket office with 3 windows plus 2 ticket machines, waiting rooms and toilets on both platforms, all sorts of electronic displays, a newsagent and a taxi office! Oh and modern (well approx 15 years old, so modern by Northern standard) EMUs running 4 times an hour to London (3 fast, 1 slow stopping). Its busy service off peak, absolutley rammed in the rush hour. While on his last visit my dad loved Manchester, the :banana:, Salford Quay, he couldn't get over how SHIT the trains were....

I suppose by implication you’re saying that they are not a massive waste during peak times ?? That being the case - where would you propose deploying off peak ? - given that everywhere else is likely to have similar demand periods.

I hope I'm not stepping on Link's toes here, but I read it as suggesting that converting the Hadfield route to a light metro/LRT configuration (with for argument's sake similar peak capacity) would lead to a growth in off peak ridership through increased frequency, better penetration into the CBD, etc.

Best regards,
Slip

Not entirely relevant to this thread but the mention of the poor facilities at Eccles reminded me that there are plans afoot to improve Irlam Station:

http://www.salford.gov.uk/irlamstationstrategy.htm

Spot on, Slip.

Recent example is the East London Line (especially the section between Croydon and New Cross).

I'm all for the 'sparks effect', but look at the previous wiring up of the Hazel Grove route in the early 1980s (paid for by the GMC), with the intention of going to Buxton.

Massive capacity, 3 trains per hour, integrated buses when it opened. 20+ years later, they get 2 small diesel trains per hour, and one electric train per day (1922 ex-Picc). Great use of investment, eh?

Why? Bad railway management and DfT meddling.

... Todmorden station doesn’t even have a clock FFS - let alone a ticket machine, or electronic displays.

I’ve never quoted myself before !!

... As I live and breath .. Northern Rail have dipped their very short arms into their very deep pockets and splashed out on a ticket machine for Todmorden !!! Whatever next !

Looks like time to resurrect this thread...:cheers::cheers::cheers:

With GWML electrification back on as far as Cardiff (but not Swansea) and a study into electrifying the Welsh Valleys lines perhaps we are entering a golden age of electrification. Though MML will only be assesed again in 5 years time.

Looks like time to resurrect this thread...:cheers::cheers::cheers:

So Wingy - what's the reason for the re-launch? Heard any good news that work has about to start?? :-)

Lets hope it doesnt go the same way as the il-fated Manchester-Sheffield electrification works in 1954

(Nice image posted on flickr by champion old rail relic "mikeyashworth")
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/4990534749_e73714f0de.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/4990534749/)
British Railways - Manchester, Sheffield & Wath electrification - locomotive 27000 with passenger train, c1954 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/4990534749/) by mikeyashworth (http://www.flickr.com/people/36844288@N00/), on Flickr

Lasted less than 20 years! What an obscene waste THAT was!

...and also from mikey's collection:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4259926284_81f5d14435.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/4259926284/)
British Rail - your new railway - London Midland Electrification - 1966 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/4259926284/) by mikeyashworth (http://www.flickr.com/people/36844288@N00/), on Flickr

Yup here you go... I had been informed previously that work will begin in ernest in May also...http://www.rail.co/location/north-west/

Fantastic. Looking forward to seeing out the first quiet none fume belching train from Victoria at some point soon!

The electrification will go from Manchester to the West Coast Main Line by 2013 and then on to Liverpool with the full project as far as Blackpool being completed by 2016. Electrostars will then run the trans-pennine route to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Suburban services will be provided by ex-Thameslink stock (319's) displaced from London after the new Thameslink project is being introduced.

Suburban services will be provided by ex-Thameslinkold secondhand stock (319's) displaced from London after the new Thameslink project is being introduced.does anyone else find this totally disgusting? :bash:

^^ Mmmm Hmmm. I do.

It shows how much government loves the North :lovethem:

It's been discussed quite a few times. Aren't they going to be refurbished to within an inch of their lives though? As good as new?

Yep, that is what I heard.

As far as any passenger would ever know they would be new.

After the emotional reaction, it does make sense to stick the faster, higher capacity trains in the SE as they do genuinely have significantly higher demand than we do up here.

Better than nothing. It does depend who does the refurbishment though. If Northern Rail do it themselves (as they have done with the Class 150s - diesel equivalent of the Class 319s), it'll be nothing more than a lick of paint, internal stickers, and some seat moquette replaced.

Given that procurement of Thameslink Programme rolling stock is behind schedule (and always has been!), I wouldn't be surprised if they were pressed into service without refurbishment.

Are these the things that do the Brighton to London Bridge run?

If so, I use them occassionally and there is nothing that wrong with them. No reason why they couldn't go straight into service up here. They are vastly better than what we have today.

Are these the things that do the Brighton to London Bridge run?

If so, I use them occassionally and there is nothing that wrong with them. No reason why they couldn't go straight into service up here. They are vastly better than what we have today.

Depends on which you mean. FCC and Southern operate Class 319s, which are like 4-car electric Class 150s, built for Thameslink in the mid/late 1980s. Most have had one or two refurbishments already, the FCC ones quite recently (since 2006, at Hornsey). They are not-DDA compliant, so would need costly refurbishment prior to 2020 (or later, if the law is relaxed).

They also both operate Class 377 Electrostars, which are like 4-car electric Class 170s, introduced recently as part of the start of the Thameslink Programme, but will be replaced by more new-build stock later.

Another big issue is that they are designed for Driver Only Operation, whereas we operate with the Conductor/Guard controlling door operation. So modifications (wiring, etc.) will have to happen, or the unions will kick up a fuss.

Just to give people an idea of them. I think they sound quite amazing and so am looking forward to seeing them around :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHma_gKm3Mo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGpxkOU_2OA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nsA8faedwo&feature=related

Here is an (FCC refurb) interior - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkv1zcYWB9A

Just to give people an idea of them. I think they sound quite amazing and so am looking forward to seeing them around :)
(Almost) anything is better than a Northern 150! The FCC 319s are ok, but personally I think the SWT 455s have been very well refurbished, with the thin-backed Siemens seating similar to that on the TPE 185s. They have also opened up the door vestibules to allow much easier access (as well as more room for people to crush...)

{deleted}

Better than nothing. It does depend who does the refurbishment though. If Northern Rail do it themselves (as they have done with the Class 150s - diesel equivalent of the Class 319s), it'll be nothing more than a lick of paint, internal stickers, and some seat moquette replaced.

Given that procurement of Thameslink Programme rolling stock is behind schedule (and always has been!), I wouldn't be surprised if they were pressed into service without refurbishment.

It won't be Northern doing it. What you have described to the 150s etc is not a refurbishment anyway, it is a refresh (despite what Northern try to tell people).

And of course they will be pressed straight into service - 30 or so units can't be refurbished all at once before they are put into service up here.

WORK has begun on a project to electrify the railway line between Manchester and Liverpool.A detailed survey of the route has been undertaken to see what needs to be done to accommodate the 25,000 volt overhead cables that will provide electricity to drive the trains, and demolition woerk will start on a number of overhead bridges in Salford.Two road bridges and one footbridge above the railway lines between Eccles and Patricroft are to be demolished and rebuilt at Albert Street, Old Wellington Road and Chadwick’s footb......for the full story register now for free or login below...

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com

So with the electrifications going on on the Liverpool - Manchester and the Blackpool & Preston - Manchester lines, as well as the "electrification" of the Oldham Loop Line for Metrolink, this is how the Manchester Railways electrification map should look like in a few years (obviously with the added East Didsbury, Manchester Airport, Ashton & Trafford Centre lines on there which will also have been electrified) :

http://i51.************/2iu5c2x.jpg

You can add Ordsall too, Piccadilly-Salford Central, I dont know if their doing the bit to Salford Crescent or not though. I also think North Western to Bryn is covered by the Liverpool-Wigan electrification though someone may correct me?

You can add Ordsall too, Piccadilly-Salford Central, I dont know if their doing the bit to Salford Crescent or not though. I also think North Western to Bryn is covered by the Liverpool-Wigan electrification though someone may correct me?

Yes, the Ordsall Curve is definitely worth showing, and will be electrified, as will Deansgate to Salford Crescent (to allow electric trains from Piccadilly to get to the wires though Eccles and Bolton.

WNW to Bryn (thence to Huyton) is included.

Volty, It might make more sense visually if you split the colours, with a different one for 25kVAC!

You've also not included the new southern Metrolink lines, and Media city?

Whoa, well it was a very rushed diagram. I'll make the ammends later but the map was really just to show that, by 2016, we'll have more electrified routes than, say, Liverpool.

You need to take off Glazebrook to Trafford Park (or wherever the lines currently end). Warrington Central isnt on the electrification list.

, by 2016, we'll have more electrified routes than, say, Liverpool.

Not Quite. Merseyside will be fully electrified except for 1.Hunts Cross/Widnes/Warrington Central/Trafford Park 2. Bidston-Wrexham and 3. Freight line Edge Hill to L'Pool Docks, resulting in only one none electric local service (Widnes) and some none electric longer distance services (eg Transpennine/East Midlands)

Hopefully wont be too long post 2016 that the north west missing gaps are filled in.

Alright I'm sorry I made a complete pig's brain of it :lol:

But yeah hopefully the missing gaps, as you say, will be filled in. It makes me cringe to think that all of London's gaps were filled in decades ago and we were left with diesel trains :ohno:

Alright I'm sorry I made a complete pig's brain of it :lol:

But yeah hopefully the missing gaps, as you say, will be filled in. It makes me cringe to think that all of London's gaps were filled in decades ago and we were left with diesel trains :ohno:

It's OK, we weren't criticising, just providing input to revision 2! :)

Keep up the good work, Great things are afoot in Manchester, and I think there will be a time soon where we (SSC) will struggle to keep up the amount of work going on.

I'm thankful anyway because I've learnt something new! No one can argue that :cheers:

Ah yes indeed! This year alone is marvellously exciting. With the moving-in and opening of MediaCity, the Trafford Promenade and Bridge etc. We're looking forward to seeing New Wakefield Street rise out above the skyline, as well as the NOMA district which will be adding a few cranes to the skyline in a few years time, and then of course the Metrolink openings! Can't wait :banana:

adding a few cranes to the skyline in a few years time, and then of course the Metrolink openings! Can't wait :banana:

(whstles nonchalantly)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=75802667#post75802667

Oh yeah, that too ;)

Although I realise the stretch from Victoria to Piccadilly won't be ran by Metrolink, what's stopping them putting it on the Metrolink map? They'll be Metro frequency anyway and easy transfer at three stations between Metrolink, very much integrated. You could change the signage at these stations to match Metrolink's colours etc but just not have Metrolink trams running on the line. Metrorail, maybe?

Oh yeah, that too ;)

Although I realise the stretch from Victoria to Piccadilly won't be ran by Metrolink, what's stopping them putting it on the Metrolink map? They'll be Metro frequency anyway and easy transfer at three stations between Metrolink, very much integrated. You could change the signage at these stations to match Metrolink's colours etc but just not have Metrolink trams running on the line. Metrorail, maybe?

Nothing. The majority of services going round the city will be TPE's, with the rest being Northern's. Is suspect that since they manage the stations they'd be quite attached to their brand identity, but I agree there is more joining up to do in terms of interchange signage but also in terms of publicity.

Albert Bridge over the M602 & Man-Liv line is currently closed with work well underway by Network Rail :)

I'm privileged enough to be able to live near to all the excitement with this project (in Eccles) (although it by far isn't the most exciting transport-related project in Manchester at the moment) so I'll be sure to go down there every once in a while and maybe take a few pictures around the site and give you all an update :)

Over the last few weeks they've just started putting Network Rail signs around the bridges over the railway saying things like "We're improving your railway" etc etc, so nothing too exciting at the moment ...

At last an end in site to those awful 1970's pacer trains which are the worst on the whole UK network,built on the Leyland national bus chassis :ohno: cant believe they are still the main type of carriages on some of the branch lines especially to the west of Manchester

Also known as cattletrucks, trolleybuses, nodding donkeys, fucking pile of shite they are.

Have to agree with you there although I can't help feeling sorry for them. They always get us from a to b and they've done nothing wrong (apart from being god awful and ageing from the moment they started service). But yeah, this is going to be just another electrified route on the Manchester network. All that's left now is a few lines in the East of the city, the Wigan to Manchester via Atherton service and the all important Manchester to Leeds via Rochdale.

Theres quite a few engineering closures planned for the summer months along the Chatmoss line so hopefully this is related to the forth coming wiring works.

Rumours I've recently heard include the Electric depot being located in Allerton Liverpool in a currently abandoned depot. It may be used in some form or more than likely flattened and a whole new depot built.

Closer to home at Victoria, the new lighting scheme has been designed with electrification in mind and is now positioned further away and lower than the future location of the wires.

With regards to TPE and Northern. By the time the works are complete neither may exist, or more than likely the North will be covered by a monstrous franchise that includes TPE and Northern, making timetabling and rerouting a hell of a lot easier. TPE and Northern Control are already in the same building at Square one.

By the way the oscar9, the 142s were only introduced in 1986 and were designed to run for about 5 or 6 years as a stop gap between better engineered trains. Everyone of those 142's has passed the 1 million mark! They may be a poor ride but they are very easy to fix and without them Manchester's railways would be a hell of a lot more crowded!

Theres no way a car or any other vehicle could do 300 odd miles a day, everyday having the crap nailed out of it bombing along the WCML etc 364 days of the year, with out starting to get a little mechanically and internally tired. Anyway just sticking up for the 142s. Bring on our new electric age.

Theres quite a few engineering closures planned for the summer months along the Chatmoss line so hopefully this is related to the forth coming wiring works.

Rumours I've recently heard include the Electric depot being located in Allerton Liverpool in a currently abandoned depot. It may be used in some form or more than likely flattened and a whole new depot built.

Closer to home at Victoria, the new lighting scheme has been designed with electrification in mind and is now positioned further away and lower than the future location of the wires.

With regards to TPE and Northern. By the time the works are complete neither may exist, or more than likely the North will be covered by a monstrous franchise that includes TPE and Northern, making timetabling and rerouting a hell of a lot easier. TPE and Northern Control are already in the same building at Square one.

By the way the oscar9, the 142s were only introduced in 1986 and were designed to run for about 5 or 6 years as a stop gap between better engineered trains. Everyone of those 142's has passed the 1 million mark! They may be a poor ride but they are very easy to fix and without them Manchester's railways would be a hell of a lot more crowded!

Theres no way a car or any other vehicle could do 300 odd miles a day, everyday having the crap nailed out of it bombing along the WCML etc 364 days of the year, with out starting to get a little mechanically and internally tired. Anyway just sticking up for the 142s. Bring on our new electric age.

Network Rail have recently purchased Allerton from DBS. Not sure if existing buildings will be used but will be home for 319s when they arrive.

Network Rail have recently purchased Allerton from DBS. Not sure if existing buildings will be used but will be home for 319s when they arrive.

So Cheshire Lines commuters into Liverpool have to travel past the Chat Moss depot with all the nice electric trains whilst still stuck on Pacers. Typical :)

So with the electrifications going on on the Liverpool - Manchester and the Blackpool & Preston - Manchester lines, as well as the "electrification" of the Oldham Loop Line for Metrolink, this is how the Manchester Railways electrification map should look like in a few years (obviously with the added East Didsbury, Manchester Airport, Ashton & Trafford Centre lines on there which will also have been electrified) :

http://i51.************/2iu5c2x.jpg

Here is the equivalent map for the Merseyrail system. The dates of 2016 for Edge Hill - Manchester and Huyton - Wigan are for the overall scheme:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/Merseyrail/SystemMap.jpg

Work on the Manchester -Liverpool electrification works gears up in June, July and August, track lowering will be taking place at Stott lane, Derby Rd Windsor St, and Weaste Rd, the majority of the work will take place at night, good to see this project gathering momentum.

Will this be Overhead electrification or traction?

Work on the Manchester -Liverpool electrification works gears up in June, July and August, track lowering will be taking place at Stott lane, Derby Rd Windsor St, and Weaste Rd, the majority of the work will take place at night, good to see this project gathering momentum.

i used to frequently see workmen late at night by the junction for the windsor link when my girlfriend lived in fusion. looked distinctly xfiles esque watching them all working under a massive spot lamp in the dark.

Will this be Overhead electrification or traction?

I don't mean to be rude, but are you serious?

Ok, maybe I was out of order there so I will explain for folk who don't know.

The electrification will be the national standard and the type used in other areas of Manchester which is 25 KV AC overhead. Although 3rd rail is used by merseyrail and around south London, it wont ever make an apearence in any other areas. For various technical and safety reasons, overhead is generally considered a better system and it is already the most common electrification system in the uk. Also, consider that since all the other electrification around Manchester is overhead, it wouldn't make sense introduce a new system.

Merseyrail will probably stay 3rd rail
Since aparently the overhead system won't fit it the tunnels, however, some or all of the new merseyrail trains may be dual voltage which means they can work on both systems.

Although 3rd rail is used by merseyrail and around south London, it wont ever make an apearence in any other areas. For various technical and safety reasons, overhead is generally considered a better system and it is already the most common electrification system in the uk. ail trains may be dual voltage which means they can work on both systems.

You make a good point here Future, and I do wonder if there will ever be any new 3rd (& 4th) rail anywhere. Except perhaps if any of the Underground ever gets extended (Battersea/Camberwell/Watford being the only 'live-ish' remaining proposals left AFAIK).

Suppose we might get a little more in the 'protected' form of DLR but completely exposed live rails seem to be finished. With contemporary views on protection of wildlife and animals generally, ground based current fries too many poor creatures.

Does anyone think that maybe one day they might even replace some of the 3rd rail in the S.E (or even MerseyRail) with overhead? Plenty of dead foxes/cats etc along the lines there would tend to indicate that might eventually be a wise move??

I don't mean to be rude, but are you serious?


That thought flashed across my mind too :lol:

No harm in asking any question though.

Haha no the stupidity is on my part, I should've thought first!

Thanks for an informative answer though :)

You make a good point here Future, and I do wonder if there will ever be any new 3rd (& 4th) rail anywhere. Except perhaps if any of the Underground ever gets extended (Battersea/Camberwell/Watford being the only 'live-ish' remaining proposals left AFAIK).

Suppose we might get a little more in the 'protected' form of DLR but completely exposed live rails seem to be finished. With contemporary views on protection of wildlife and animals generally, ground based current fries too many poor creatures.

Does anyone think that maybe one day they might even replace some of the 3rd rail in the S.E (or even MerseyRail) with overhead? Plenty of dead foxes/cats etc along the lines there would tend to indicate that might eventually be a wise move??

I'm sure i read somewhere that the HSE will only allow extensions of 3rd and 4th rail systems. If Merseyrail, for example is extended It would make no sense to intoduce 25KV AC unless you where going to install it on the entire network, which would cost a fortune and would be technicaly difficult.

The way things happen in this country, I think 3rd rail is here to stay, unless something better than overhead AC comes along which aint gonna happen too soon.

And Volde, no such thing as a stupid question, not at your age anyway :)

I'm sure i read somewhere that the HSE will only allow extensions of 3rd and 4th rail systems. If Merseyrail, for example is extended It would make no sense to intoduce 25KV AC unless you where going to install it on the entire network, which would cost a fortune and would be technicaly difficult.

The way things happen in this country, I think 3rd rail is here to stay, unless something better than overhead AC comes along which aint gonna happen too soon.

And Volde, no such thing as a stupid question, not at your age anyway :)

I think it goes without saying that any modern electric traction system would tend to use 25kV AC overhead. The advantages include safety, reliability and cost (high voltages can be transmitted over longer distances so saving on sub-stations). The former objections to overhead - the need to raise bridges to obtain clearance are less stringent nowadays as improved design allows reduced clearances.

However, I doubt that London Underground, Merseyrail or the SE rail network are likely to change over to 25kV AC any time soon. Although it is not always the case, clearances in tunnels tend to prevent the installation of OLE equipment.

The most talked about extension to the Merseyrail electrics network - from Bidston to Wrexham will, if it goes ahead, almost certainly use OLE with dual voltage trains changing to DC third rail at Bidston. Dual voltage operation is nothing new and happens at the Thameslink station at Farringdon using the electric units that are due to be transferred to work on the new electrified lines in the north west.

Smaller electrification schemes, such as Kirkby to Headbolt Lane will almost certainly be done with third rail.

The Edge Hill to Manchester and Wigan electrifications will be overhead line as is the existing Runcorn line. If, in the future, these lines are linked to the DC network via a tunnelled link to Central Low Level, then the dual voltage trains will come into their own.

Another update now. Well, nothing much has really happened to the railway at all. They're focusing more at the moment on reinforcing or "rebuilding" the bridges which cross it. Meaning they've made a mess of the roads and pedestrian bridges here in Eccles:

http://i55.************/2lus7ly.jpg

Cornerstone Bridge:

http://i53.************/23trz9f.jpg

Perhaps the only bit of actual railway-level contact is this scaffolding, reaching down from Monton Road bridge. Sorry about my thumb.

http://i52.************/2m64xns.jpg


Trains are still running along this line but I assume they will be suspended sometime in the coming year and replaced in 2016 with electric trains! :cheers:

Another update now. Well, nothing much has really happened to the railway at all. They're focusing more at the moment on reinforcing or "rebuilding" the bridges which cross it. Meaning they've made a mess of the roads and pedestrian bridges here in Eccles:

http://i55.************/2lus7ly.jpg

Cornerstone Bridge:

http://i53.************/23trz9f.jpg

Perhaps the only bit of actual railway-level contact is this scaffolding, reaching down from Monton Road bridge. Sorry about my thumb.

http://i52.************/2m64xns.jpg


Trains are still running along this line but I assume they will be suspended sometime in the coming year and replaced in 2016 with electric trains! :cheers:

This part of the project should be electrified by 2013 and hopefully EMU`s running by then...however this will depend on the rolling stock being cascaded (dont you just love that word, why they just dont say second hand stuff being passed down) from Southern or from where ever they are coming from.

Oh, my bad. I heard somewhere it was 2016. 2013 seems very unrealistic! But I'm no expert.

It upsets me that they're giving us second hand stock but in these times it's all we can afford and I guess it's recycling? :)

December 2013 is the planned date for our (FTPE) introduction of electric Manchester - Scottish services. This will release diesel Class 185s back for their original purpose of strengthening North (Liverpool/Mcr Airport - Manchester - Leeds - York) Route service.

What isn't known, yet, is whether we are getting cast-offs from London Midland in the shape of 350/1s, or newbuild Desiros.

BR did rolling stock cascades very well, particularly on schemes in London & South East. It is just a shame that DfT doesn't order enought stock to enable them to happen! IIRC, it is over 800+ days since DfT placed a *confirmed* order for new rolling stock. That is as bad as at the start of privatisation!

December 2013 is the planned date for our (FTPE) introduction of electric Manchester - Scottish services. This will release diesel Class 185s back for their original purpose of strengthening North (Liverpool/Mcr Airport - Manchester - Leeds - York) Route service.

What isn't known, yet, is whether we are getting cast-offs from London Midland in the shape of 350/1s, or newbuild Desiros.

BR did rolling stock cascades very well, particularly on schemes in London & South East. It is just a shame that DfT doesn't order enought stock to enable them to happen! IIRC, it is over 800+ days since DfT placed a *confirmed* order for new rolling stock. That is as bad as at the start of privatisation!

Are these Manchester - Scotland services still planned to be rerouted via Eccles and Wigan just out of curiosity?

Are these Manchester - Scotland services still planned to be rerouted via Eccles and Wigan just out of curiosity?Yes.

Yes.

One disbenefit is that should the Chat Moss route be blocked, there isn't an alternative for diversionary purposes until the Chorley/Bolton route is wired.

So in the event of disruption, electric services might be turned at Preston or Wigan. It'd be like dumping London pax at Watford Junction or Milton Keynes!

IIRC, it is over 800+ days since DfT placed a *confirmed* order for new rolling stock. That is as bad as at the start of privatisation!
This is what killed rolling stock manufacture in this country.

Are these Manchester - Scotland services still planned to be rerouted via Eccles and Wigan just out of curiosity?

I thought it was unlikely that NR are spending millions of pounds to electrify this line just for MAN-LPL services, I would imgine we will see operations on this line quadruple in the next few years.

Currently planned, Man-Liv, Man-Scotland and Man-Wigan services to use the line. When Bolton lines done that will be the electric diversion route.

Surely would it not be the other way round. Bolton being the usual more direct route to the north and the eccles route being the diversion?

No, Eccles routes faster with less stops whereas Bolton route theres many suburban stations and all the stopper services to get stuck behind.

No, Eccles routes faster with less stops whereas Bolton route theres many suburban stations and all the stopper services to get stuck behind.

Correct WZ, it will also have a positive effect on punctuality on Atherton and Bolton routes, as there will be less conflicting moves around Salford Crescent.

On the subject of Liverpool - Manchester, earlier this evening, I travelled on 1L20, the 2137 from Liverpool to Nottingham, which managed from Lime Street to Oxford Road, calling at South Parkway, Widnes and Warrington Central, in 43 minutes. Given a clear path, on the longer CLC route, if a 22 year-old, shagged out diesel that had just done a previous Norwich - Liverpool trip manages that, I have high hopes for the electric service.

Will be awful for Bolton losing it's last semi inter-city service though.

Will be awful for Bolton losing it's last semi inter-city service though.

What are loadings like from Bolton heading to Scotland?

From my very limited experience (Edinburgh tram about 5 times this year) most of the Bolton traffic is to and from Manchester and not heading north.

Cannnot tell where those that get on at Bolton northbound do alight though.

If I remember right loadings are around 20% from Man Air, 80% from Man Pic, 60% from Bolton 40/50% Preston then rises again to near full gradually at it plows through Scotland. Basically half the passengers are only travelling between Manchester/Bolton/Preston.

^^

So it is no great loss then as long as Manchester - Preston is serviced with something?

No, Eccles routes faster with less stops whereas Bolton route theres many suburban stations and all the stopper services to get stuck behind.
Hmmm - rough distances from Piccadilly to Euxton are 30 miles via Eccles/Wigan/WCML and 25 miles via Bolton - so even if they both managed 60mph then the difference is only 5 minutes - I assume on the Eccles/Wigan/WCML the Pendos will average somewhat better than that

They could do 100mph on the WCML and from near the west end of Chat Moss (Where the marsh ends?) to Huyton line speed is being increased along with reduction in headway times.

Railmiles is coming up as 31miles via Bolton and 37 miles via Wigan

Will be awful for Bolton losing it's last semi inter-city service though.

Has any decision been taken about the Barrow and Windermere services that currently run via Bolton. Will these continue to run via Bolton?

Hmmm - rough distances from Piccadilly to Euxton are 30 miles via Eccles/Wigan/WCML and 25 miles via Bolton - so even if they both managed 60mph then the difference is only 5 minutes - I assume on the Eccles/Wigan/WCML the Pendos will average somewhat better than that

Not quite comparing apples etc. All TPE services via Bolton stop at Bolton and Chorley, with some stopping more frequently than that. The trains via the Chat Moss route will stop at Wigan and Preston only. At the moment to minimise the number of train paths needed out of Manchester Airport, many TPE trains divide/join at Preston. Will the same arrangement apply when both Liverpool and Manchester trains run to Scotland - with joining/dividing at Wigan and possibly again at Carlisle for both Edinburgh and Glasgow? If so this might affect the point to point Manchester Preston timings.

Not quite comparing apples etc. All TPE services via Bolton stop at Bolton and Chorley, with some stopping more frequently than that. The trains via the Chat Moss route will stop at Wigan and Preston only. At the moment to minimise the number of train paths needed out of Manchester Airport, many TPE trains divide/join at Preston. Will the same arrangement apply when both Liverpool and Manchester trains run to Scotland - with joining/dividing at Wigan and possibly again at Carlisle for both Edinburgh and Glasgow? If so this might affect the point to point Manchester Preston timings.

I think Liverpool is under discussion - but I doubt think it will be done for both Scottish cities. I think in the RUS is mentioned Liverpool - Edinburgh specifically.

I would if this will impact on the fast Liverpool - Blackpool service.

But joining at Preston might have a time penalty. Overall I think via Wigan will be much quicker due to line speeds and less stops. Chorley never belonged on a Manchester - Scotland train.

I think Liverpool is under discussion - but I doubt think it will be done for both Scottish cities. I think in the RUS is mentioned Liverpool - Edinburgh specifically.

I would if this will impact on the fast Liverpool - Blackpool service.

But joining at Preston might have a time penalty. Overall I think via Wigan will be much quicker due to line speeds and less stops. Chorley never belonged on a Manchester - Scotland train.

IIRC the Liverpool South Parkway to Blackpool North train stops at all stations between so I assume that you are talking about the time taken in using platforms 1 and 5 for joining/splitting. I agree that resignalling at Wigan to make platform 5 suitable for reversible working would probably be essential.

Ideally portions from Manchester and Liverpool would combine at Preston and then split further north for portions to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

IIRC the Liverpool South Parkway to Blackpool North train stops at all stations between
Between where?

To add another dimension to this we mustn`t for get the new Buckshaw Village Chorley station now being built.

IIRC the Liverpool South Parkway to Blackpool North train stops at all stations between so I assume that you are talking about the time taken in using platforms 1 and 5 for joining/splitting. I agree that resignalling at Wigan to make platform 5 suitable for reversible working would probably be essential.

I thought this was a fast or semi-fast service? And I think it's non-stop from Preston to Blackpool too, unusually for this.

Do you think Liverpool needs a Blackpool service more than a Scotland one, if they had to choose one? I would hope both would be viable - especially as Liverpool - Blackpool would be EMU now, and it'd give Liverpool - Preston 2tph.

Merseytravel wants to see more 'intercity' services added for Liverpool, after being chopped off the XC network circa 2004. It also lost the Central Citylink to Leicester, Peterborough and Stansted Airport under franchise remapping.

Rumours of reinstating Liverpool - Newcastle (vice Scarborough) and Scottish services have been around since 2007.

Buckshaw Parkway will be served by FTPE (Blackpool - Airport) and Northern (Preston - Hazel Grove) services.

Barrow/Windermere services might continue to run via Bolton, as these are diesel worked. However, if Windermere gets included in an infill electrification scheme, it may change at a later date. Chester to Crewe got included in the wiring works at a late stage.

It all depends on the whim of DfT, how long the franchises get extended, and whether they remap them.

£3m bridge works completed

3rd August 2011

By Mike Fahy - Assistant Editor

NETWORK Rail has completed the first stage of work to electrify the railway between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street following a £3m investment to rebuild three bridges between Eccles and Patricroft stations.

Albert Street bridge has reopened after a 20-week closure, with Old Wellington Road and Chadwick’s footbridge expected to reopen within the next few days.

Network Rail said the completion paves the way for the installation of overhead power cables to electrify the line next year, which will improve reliability and boost capacity on the route.

Jo Kaye, Network Rail’s route director, said: “Electrification presents a huge opportunity and is vital for Britain’s long-term, low-carbon economic growth. The opening of Albert Street bridge marks the first major step in a programme of work that will improve rail links across the north west, better connecting our towns and cities.”

Work to electrify the railway between Manchester and Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows, is expected to be completed by 2014, with a wider programme of work across the North West to be delivered by 2016.

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/

Double Post

Work to electrify the railway between Manchester and Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows, is expected to be completed by 2014,

Has this date slipped? I am sure I read completion of this section was 2013?

Manchester to WCML 2013, Liverpool to WCML 2014.

Manchester to WCML 2013, Liverpool to WCML 2014.



Thought so ...thanks for clarification Watcher

Seeing as how this is now quite definitely "under construction" :banana: can any of the Admins please shift it over to the Construction thread page? :-)

This is my first post on this forum but have been lurking for a while.

Manchester to WCML is due to be completed in 2013. This will allow electric trains to run from MIA to Scotland via Piccadilly and the Chat Moss route.

Further electrification will follow ie Liverpool by 2014 and Blackpool and Bolton by 2016.


Where will the stock for Liverpool - Manchester and eventually Blackpool etc be stabled.

Will any be at Newton Heath if so presumably the wires will continue to there.

Also although not part of the electrification as such but part of the Northern Hub some new west facing terminal platforms are required at Victoria. When will these be provided.

Welcome Viscount702...I am sure someone on here will be able to answer your questions for you.

What this electrification of the VIC route will allow ia another path to LON from VIC, the operator looking at this is Allaince Rail Holdings operating as Great North Western Railway-GNWR along side its sister Co GNER, interesting it plans to make alot more use of ECC and create a Parkway from it. Alliance submitted a bid to operate a while ago but the bid was unsuccesful, but is now resubmitting its bid, full details here....

http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/

I wasn't aware of these proposals. They make for interesting reading. The Bradford to LON via Stockport is a good one. Diesel Traction I assume at least from Stockport to Bradford. I note that the GNWR trains will be Electric/Diesel and capable of 125 MPH.

Welcome Viscount702...I am sure someone on here will be able to answer your questions for you.

What this electrification of the VIC route will allow ia another path to LON from VIC

<pedant>MCV-EUS</pedant> :D

Best,
Slip

I wasn't aware of these proposals. They make for interesting reading. The Bradford to LON via Stockport is a good one. Diesel Traction I assume at least from Stockport to Bradford. I note that the GNWR trains will be Electric/Diesel and capable of 125 MPH.

I had an idea they weren`t going to electrify the MAN-LPL routes just for this service, this is a multi million pound investment, I think we will see trains triple on these lines, the ECC proposal is intetesting. There is no doubt this line is going to become a major pathway into MAN

Further electrification will follow ie Liverpool by 2014 and Blackpool and Bolton by 2016.

Where will the stock for Liverpool - Manchester and eventually Blackpool etc be stabled.

Will any be at Newton Heath if so presumably the wires will continue to there.



Welcome to the Forum Viscount. At the Manchester end stabling for the electric trains has yet to be decided, although a new depot located in the Guide bridge area has been rumoured. At the Liverpool end Allerton depot is currently being reconstructed and this will be home to the full '156' diesel fleet and also the future '319's'.

As far as we know at present there is no intention to electrify Newton Heath and the wires at Victoria (for now) will only continue a short way past the station but all platforms will be electrified in one go including the East facing bays.

No time scale as yet for the west facing bays.

I had an idea they weren`t going to electrify the MAN-LPL routes just for this service, this is a multi million pound investment, I think we will see trains triple on these lines, the ECC proposal is intetesting. There is no doubt this line is going to become a major pathway into MANIf you are going to use three-letter codes, please use them consistently. I'm guessing LPL means Liverpool (but Lime St is LIV, LPL is the airline code for Liverpool Airport) and MAN Manchester (Piccadilly is MAN, but trains may well go to MCV as Slip has already pointed out!).

Better still, why not use the full names, I can see it being less confusing for a lot of readers. :)

Thank you all for your replies.

For clarification what is "ECC".

Guide Bridge seems an odd choice of depot if that is where it will be. Newton Heath would seem more sensible.

How is it intended the electric units would get to Guide Bridge prior to the Ordsall curve being constructed .Liverpool- Manchester electric running starts in 2014 I believe but the Ordsall curve isn't due to be completed until 2016 I think.

Theres no room at Newton Heath as it is now so I think that is why they are looking for somewhere new. I think Guide Bridge was rumoured as its already on an electrified line and there's plenty of space up there.


Its funny I bet they wish they had never knocked down the old electric depot at Reddish down now, as if they put the wires up through Vic and then towards Ashton you would have access to Pic via Guide bridge, Vic via Ashton Moss Junction and also Stockport via Heaton Norris Junction. Oh well!

ECC = Eccles

A diesel shunter could drag units to Newton Heath.

A diesel shunter could drag units to Newton Heath.

Apart from there not being enough room there, that is not a very practical or efficient solution :lol:

The lack of room is a problem. I've seen diesels bring electric locos to stations in France though.

The only other solution is to stable trains overnight at Victoria and service them in Liverpool.

I doubt that will be possible.

I know there are proposals for some more Westbound terminal platforms at Victoria but its not clear to me when or even if these will be built. If they are built maybe trains could be stabled there overnight but this isn't really a solution.

On another point when the electrification to the WCML is complete in 2013 and trains can run from MIA to Scotland the intention is I believe to use Class 377 Electrostars. As these in theory will be here before the Class 319 for Chat Moss route where are these going to be stabled.

The lack of room is a problem. I've seen diesels bring electric locos to stations in France though.

The only other solution is to stable trains overnight at Victoria and service them in Liverpool.

Or send them to the new depot at Guide Bridge...

Just requires to travel westwards and then back through Deansgate to Guide Bridge depot.

I doubt that will be possible.

I know there are proposals for some more Westbound terminal platforms at Victoria but its not clear to me when or even if these will be built. If they are built maybe trains could be stabled there overnight but this isn't really a solution.

On another point when the electrification to the WCML is complete in 2013 and trains can run from MIA to Scotland the intention is I believe to use Class 377 Electrostars. As these in theory will be here before the Class 319 for Chat Moss route where are these going to be stabled.

Not sure where you have got that from - Class 350 Desiros are what has been hinted at. They are being tested at 110mph which will slightly improve journey times too.

Or send them to the new depot at Guide Bridge...

Just requires to travel westwards and then back through Deansgate to Guide Bridge depot.

Where would they stop for the driver to change ends?

Reference to the Class 377 Electrostars was taken from this or another related thread.

Whatever class is to be used for these services they must be stabled somewhere. If as seems to be the case that no decision has been taken on where the Manchester stabling for any of these new electric trains will be it isn't that far off to 2013 and 2014 when somewhere will be needed.

Where would they stop for the driver to change ends?

if you leave westward from Victoria, you could go round the newly built Ordsall curve and straight through to Guide Bridge?

If you are going to use three-letter codes, please use them consistently. I'm guessing LPL means Liverpool (but Lime St is LIV, LPL is the airline code for Liverpool Airport) and MAN Manchester (Piccadilly is MAN, but trains may well go to MCV as Slip has already pointed out!).

Better still, why not use the full names, I can see it being less confusing for a lot of readers. :)

I must use the right codes form now on or I will get shouted at by mad...:bash::bash::bash: I will do 100 lines.

Where would they stop for the driver to change ends?

Probably a signal which is where trains can switch tracks.

if you leave westward from Victoria, you could go round the newly built Ordsall curve and straight through to Guide Bridge?

Yes, but we are talking about before the chord is built :)

Will be 350's, thats more or less confirmed now with them deep in negotiation over exact numbers (with the possibility of handful more for a small additional electrification scheme in Birmingham).

Will these 350's be refitted or done up because they have 5 a breast seating in standard class which isn't ideal for Scotland routes.

Also where will they be stabled if this is known

Will these 350's be refitted or done up because they have 5 a breast seating in standard class which isn't ideal for Scotland routes.

Also where will they be stabled if this is known

350/1s are four abreast.

TPE want to run Scottish services via Bolton not Wigan

Makes it all the more interesting...

BOLTON will lose more than 20 key rail services each day from December 2013, The Bolton News can reveal.

As part of infrastructure operator Network Rail’s plans for the next few years, all First TransPennine Express trains between Manchester Airport and Glasgow and Edinburgh, of which there is 11 services in both directions each day, will be diverted away from Bolton.

Currently, there are 14 services between Manchester Airport and Edinburgh and eight from the airport to Glasgow.

The plan is to divert these through Chat Moss and Wigan, from December 2013, once the line is electrified.

Transport campaigners and councillors have slammed the changes, which they say will give Bolton a “third class service”.

Gus Heyes, spokesman for BoltonRail Campaign, which is campaigning on the social networking website Twitter, said: “The Bolton Council representatives on Transport for Greater Manchester need to explain why they have allowed Bolton Station to be relegated to third-class service.”

Cllr David Chadwick, one of Bolton’s three representatives on the Transport for Greater Manchester board, said: “This is our worst fears coming true.

“We raised concerns when the rail electrification was announced, but we were led to believe it was not going to be the case.”

Former board member Cllr David Wilkinson added: “We desperately need any trains we can in Bolton, so this is a big blow.”

First TransPennine has raised concerns about the long-termimpact of the change.

In a response to Network Rail’s consultation, David Langton, timetable strategy manager, wrote: “In the long term, when the full North West electrification scheme is completed, including the Bolton corridor, it will be best to revert to the Bolton and Chorley route for two reasons.

“Firstly, it is quicker between Manchester and Preston on this route rather than via Wigan.

“Secondly, Scottish intermediate traffic is more significant at Bolton and, to a lesser extent, Chorley.”

While the firm has raised the issue of moving Manchester Airport to Scotland trains back on to the Bolton and Chorley line once it is electrified, there is no suggestion Trans- Pennine Express will be running the service, because its franchise runs out in 2015.

The news is a big blow to rail passengers in Bolton and comes just days after Northern Rail announced it was getting 22 extra carriages to ease chronic over-crowding


http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk

So TPE agree with my assessment of the relative speed of the two routes then. . .

Thats the speed today, they are partly increasing the line speed of Chat Moss and the junction speeds, the services will be replaced with additional services to Blackburn and Preston. Really I think they just dont want to lose the revenue from commuters Manchester-Bolton (where their packed), the TPE consultation response their reporting as 'news' was also way back in 2009 and GMPTE/Bolton council didnt object.

350/1s are four abreast.

They are five abrest, the 450 (the same train but with shoegear not a pantograph) runs the Portsmouth routes.

Will these 350's be refitted or done up because they have 5 a breast seating in standard class which isn't ideal for Scotland routes.

Also where will they be stabled if this is known

350/1s are four abreast.

They are five abrest, the 450 (the same train but with shoegear not a pantograph) runs the Portsmouth routes.

350/1s are four abreast
350/2s are five abreast

Fact.

It would seem that the 350/1 is 4 abreast and the 350/2 5 abreast.

I take it that the class 350/1 is the one for this route.

Off topic question, but does anyone know the timescales of how long a line is out of use to be electrified?

The physical alterations to the bridges and what not (oh and lowering the tracks) require closure, but as far as I know they can do all the piling for the OHLE poles, as well as putting up the actual wires at night. So no closures required... although as is the case most nights recently at Victoria the final service to Liverpool is replaced by a bus, so they have more time to work.

Theyve already completed the bridge alterations havent they?

I'm not too sure Watcher as I only know about those few at Eccles (I expected more else ware) but your normally right!

Theyve already completed the bridge alterations havent they?


Yes I think they have the last date was the 20/21 Aug

TPE want to run Scottish services via Bolton not Wigan

Makes it all the more interesting...

BOLTON will lose more than 20 key rail services each day from December 2013, The Bolton News can reveal.

As part of infrastructure operator Network Rail’s plans for the next few years, all First TransPennine Express trains between Manchester Airport and Glasgow and Edinburgh, of which there is 11 services in both directions each day, will be diverted away from Bolton.

Currently, there are 14 services between Manchester Airport and Edinburgh and eight from the airport to Glasgow.
The plan is to divert these through Chat Moss and Wigan, from December 2013, once the line is electrified.

Transport campaigners and councillors have slammed the changes, which they say will give Bolton a “third class service”.

Gus Heyes, spokesman for BoltonRail Campaign, which is campaigning on the social networking website Twitter, said: “The Bolton Council representatives on Transport for Greater Manchester need to explain why they have allowed Bolton Station to be relegated to third-class service.”

Cllr David Chadwick, one of Bolton’s three representatives on the Transport for Greater Manchester board, said: “This is our worst fears coming true.
“We raised concerns when the rail electrification was announced, but we were led to believe it was not going to be the case.”

Former board member Cllr David Wilkinson added: “We desperately need any trains we can in Bolton, so this is a big blow.”

First TransPennine has raised concerns about the long-termimpact of the change.

In a response to Network Rail’s consultation, David Langton, timetable strategy manager, wrote: “In the long term, when the full North West electrification scheme is completed, including the Bolton corridor, it will be best to revert to the Bolton and Chorley route for two reasons.

“Firstly, it is quicker between Manchester and Preston on this route rather than via Wigan.

“Secondly, Scottish intermediate traffic is more significant at Bolton and, to a lesser extent, Chorley.”

While the firm has raised the issue of moving Manchester Airport to Scotland trains back on to the Bolton and Chorley line once it is electrified, there is no suggestion Trans- Pennine Express will be running the service, because its
franchise runs out in 2015.

The news is a big blow to rail passengers in Bolton and comes just days after Northern Rail announced it was getting 22 extra carriages to ease chronic over-crowding.
http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk

Are those train figures correct? Yes Zero is correct, this has been in the spotlight for some years. And commuted for a thankfully short while to Bolton by train, it is the commuter service that matters.

The priority needs to be-
A. Commuter services to Manchester and to a lesser extent Preston.
B. Electrification
C. Maintain routes to Manchester Airport
D. Re building Bolton train station
E. Up grading of route to Wigan

And then it will be time to consider routes to Glasgow.

I think I mentioned this a while back, but Buckshaw Village station is now also being built, this will prove a big communting area to both Preston and Manchester, they fought long and hard for this station to be built, the last thing it needs now it to lose half its services.

They will be ok Wingtips because the Scottish + Windermere and Barrow trains were not going to be stopping there anyway. Only trains run by Northern will stop there. Hazel Grove - Preston - Vic - Blackpools etc.

They will be ok Wingtips because the Scottish + Windermere and Barrow trains were not going to be stopping there anyway. Only trains run by Northern will stop there. Hazel Grove - Preston - Vic - Blackpools etc.

How many trains an hour will serve Bucckshaw village then, also at the moment TPE serve Chorley several times an hour

As far as I know (and I'm sure ill be corrected) it will be two trains per hour in either direction with a couple of additional trains in the peaks. If you require travel else ware I guess it will mean changing at Preston or Bolton.

Thanks for info Tony

Will there be an increase in local-stopping trains on the Victoria to Liverpool route?

Will there be an increase in local-stopping trains on the Victoria to Liverpool route?

They want to change the hourly Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay stopper to a 2nd Victoria stopper. It leaves Liverpool 30 mins after the existing Victoria service so would provide a half hourly service. This might happen before electrification.

Excellent. I might start using Eccles then as it's actually closer to where I live. The only reason I use Swinton is because it's better equipped and the trains are more frequent. Thanks for the info! I take it Eccles station will get refurbished with new PID's and all?

Excellent. I might start using Eccles then as it's actually closer to where I live. The only reason I use Swinton is because it's better equipped and the trains are more frequent. Thanks for the info! I take it Eccles station will get refurbished with new PID's and all?

AFAIK Volde the funding isn't there (yet) for Eccles. It would have been done under TIF. It is 1 of the 11 remaining to be done over the next 4 years, all of which require funding.

However, Tranche 2 of Network Rail's National Stations Improvement Programme has provisionally allocated £150k for passenger enhancements which are 'likely to focus on improving ticketing facilities'. Funding has yet to be confirmed and is subject to a third party contribution (Salford CC, Tesco, perhaps?) to unlock the NSIP funds.

As far as I know (and I'm sure ill be corrected) it will be two trains per hour in either direction with a couple of additional trains in the peaks. If you require travel else ware I guess it will mean changing at Preston or Bolton.

I was under the impression that both Northern services (MCV-BPN and PRE-HAZ), as well as the FTPE (MIA-BPN) services would call there, giving a 3tph frequency. Allowances in Sectional Running Times have been in place for some time (since 2008).

However, no applications have gone in as yet to the ORR.

AFAIK Volde the funding isn't there (yet) for Eccles. It would have been done under TIF. It is 1 of the 11 remaining to be done over the next 4 years, all of which require funding.

However, Tranche 2 of Network Rail's National Stations Improvement Programme has provisionally allocated £150k for passenger enhancements which are 'likely to focus on improving ticketing facilities'. Funding has yet to be confirmed and is subject to a third party contribution (Salford CC, Tesco, perhaps?) to unlock the NSIP funds.

Yes cause I remember seeing a map of all the rail stations in GM which're supposed to get redone sometime soon and Eccles and Walkden (two of my locals) were on it. Better ticketing facilities? Is that just ticket vending machines or actual full-blown staffed offices?

Its always a compromise between what needs doing and the resources available to do it.

Eccles – Following a site meeting in January 2011 between GMPTE, Salford City Council (SCC), Friends of Eccles Station (FRECCLES), Network Rail and Northern Rail a scope of works has been agreed to be taken forward. The scope focuses on providing a new/enhanced ticket office in its current location. Northern Rail advise that the initial findings with regards design, feasibility and costs should be available in spring 2011.

Theirs a rail and capital meeting on the 11th September I think so documents for that may be more uptodate but as its a bank holiday their not up yet.

AFAIK Volde the funding isn't there (yet) for Eccles. It would have been done under TIF. It is 1 of the 11 remaining to be done over the next 4 years, all of which require funding.

However, Tranche 2 of Network Rail's National Stations Improvement Programme has provisionally allocated £150k for passenger enhancements which are 'likely to focus on improving ticketing facilities'. Funding has yet to be confirmed and is subject to a third party contribution (Salford CC, Tesco, perhaps?) to unlock the NSIP funds.

Alliance Rail operating as GNWR have said if they win operating rights they will invest heavily In ECC and create ECC Parkway.

http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gnwr/

Are those train figures correct? Yes Zero is correct, this has been in the spotlight for some years. And commuted for a thankfully short while to Bolton by train, it is the commuter service that matters.

The priority needs to be-
A. Commuter services to Manchester and to a lesser extent Preston.
B. Electrification
C. Maintain routes to Manchester Airport
D. Re building Bolton train station
E. Up grading of route to Wigan

And then it will be time to consider routes to Glasgow.

Why do they need to rebuild Bolton train station? It was only rebuilt a short while ago (more's the pity - I much preferred the original station on the other side of Trinity St).

Theyve just finished rebuilding the ticket office, extending the platform canopies so they cover the area between the platform access steps and the existing canopies, renovating the cafe, waiting room and other platform buildings. In the future they are moving the main bus station next door to the station and building an elevated walkway to connect the two.

Theyve just finished rebuilding the ticket office, extending the platform canopies so they cover the area between the platform access steps and the existing canopies, renovating the cafe, waiting room and other platform buildings. In the future they are moving the main bus station next door to the station and building an elevated walkway to connect the two.

Seems a bit pointless if Bolton is losing its direct intercity connections and becoming nothing more than a suburban commuter station for Manchester.
It's pretty stupid that the second largest town in the UK should be relegated to such a status.

Seems a bit pointless if Bolton is losing its direct intercity connections and becoming nothing more than a suburban commuter station for Manchester.
It's pretty stupid that the second largest town in the UK should be relegated to such a status.

Not sure that's entirely correct, I don't know if you meant the town proper ot the borough, but Bolton's the 14th largest British town, after places like Reading, Bournemouth, Milton Keynes and Luton.

http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/CityStatus/CityStatusTable2.asp

It also has several million users a year of which only a few tens of thousands are using the service to Scotland every two hours.

Theyve just finished rebuilding the ticket office, extending the platform canopies so they cover the area between the platform access steps and the existing canopies, renovating the cafe, waiting room and other platform buildings. In the future they are moving the main bus station next door to the station and building an elevated walkway to connect the two.

Cheers it is a while since I used the staton.

Interesting. Back in my student days, I used to take direct services from Bolton to Brum and London quite regularly. I guess it's not too much of a pain to change at Piccadilly, but I'm just surprised there only a handful of people who would use a direct service.

Bolton has had Intercity services, since, well, Intercity days. At the moment we have inter-urban Class 185 DMUs, trying to cater for both long-distance intercity flows, as well as urban commuter. It just doesn't work.

BR/ICXC served it with Class 47 locos and Mk. 2 coaching stock, also Class 158s. Don't remember any HSTs at Bolton, but I will happily be corrected. Into Virgin days came Voyagerisation through Operation Princess.

I think the routing via Wigan, which Virgin did anyway on certain diagrams, has been a long time coming. It unties the conflicting passenger flows, and increases the potential of portion working from Scotland to other destinations, such as Liverpool or Blackpool, both of which have suffered much worse loss of Intercity services than Bolton has.

Not sure that's entirely correct, I don't know if you meant the town proper ot the borough, but Bolton's the 14th largest British town, after places like Reading, Bournemouth, Milton Keynes and Luton.

http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/CityStatus/CityStatusTable2.asp

Does the borough not form part of the whole town? if so those figures are completely wrong - and I suspect it was these that made Stockport look like crime-central a few years back because they used these smaller figures versus the crime stats for the whole borough (instead of the borough population figure which is approximately 100% than that one)

Does the borough not form part of the whole town? if so those figures are completely wrong - and I suspect it was these that made Stockport look like crime-central a few years back because they used these smaller figures versus the crime stats for the whole borough (instead of the borough population figure which is approximately 100% than that one)

Borough-wise Bolton would be the largest town, but then I suspect Reading also has a borough which might be larger than Bolton's borough?

I imagine it's like the Manchester/Greater Manchester City Population vs Metro population debate. The town proper of Bolton is 14th largest, like the City proper of Manchester is 7th or whatever. But the borough of Bolton is larger than the town and GM is a lot larger than Manchester, etc.

Borough-wise Bolton would be the largest town, but then I suspect Reading also has a borough which might be larger than Bolton's borough?

I imagine it's like the Manchester/Greater Manchester City Population vs Metro population debate. The town proper of Bolton is 14th largest, like the City proper of Manchester is 7th or whatever. But the borough of Bolton is larger than the town and GM is a lot larger than Manchester, etc.

Either way, Bolton has a pretty big population - one that I would have thought worthy of intercity services. If somewhere the size on Crewe can be deemed suitable for many intercity services each day, I'd have thought there was more demand from Bolton.

Either way, Bolton has a pretty big population - one that I would have thought worthy of intercity services. If somewhere the size on Crewe can be deemed suitable for many intercity services each day, I'd have thought there was more demand from Bolton.

But Crewe is an interchange on the mainline. Bolton is none of those things. Not saying that Bolton should not have the services but its not exactly comparing apples with apples.

Sadly for Bolton it isn't currently on a mainline high volume route - once Manchester to Preston is Electrified via Bolton then it starts to have to the attraction (for Scotland bound traffic) that Stockport does for London bound traffic - a place (outside the centre of twon) to pick up an intercity service for nearby Manchester satellite towns - so I see quite a bit of London bound custom at Stockport from Altrincham and Tameside - Bolton would pick up Stretford/Bury for fast Scotland bound trains - and if there is ever through London bound WCML electrified traffic from the north that came via Manchester it could benefit there too

As part of the electrification to Preston and Blackpool will the lines to Wigan be electrified as well

As part of the electrification to Preston and Blackpool will the lines to Wigan be electrified as well

You mean Victoria to Wigan via Atherton? No. I wish though!

No volty that line is ear marked for a commuter service update of a nature not yet specified, mainly as the Sheffield tram train trials have not started.

Likewise reading some older GM documents lodged on this computer, I see that Bolton too has been considered for a likewise up grade. Which would explain partly why it's losing it's few inter city routes. Only partly as the electrification elsewhere is the true dynamo of change.

I always thought that line would be good for Metrolink/light rail operation. But surely that'll still need electrification? The Victoria to Bury rail line was electrified before it was converted to Metrolink! :)

I always thought that line would be good for Metrolink/light rail operation. But surely that'll still need electrification? The Victoria to Bury rail line was electrified before it was converted to Metrolink! :)

It was 'third rail' though, no overheads.

You mean Victoria to Wigan via Atherton? No. I wish though!

I was thinking more of the section from Lostock to Wigan

There's no need to, you will be able to get from Mcr to Wigan under wires via Chat Moss.

Planning application gone in for works at Deansgate station.


Deansgate Railway Station Deansgate Manchester M3 4LG

LISTED BUILDING CONSENT for erection of gantries to railway viaduct capable of supporting overhead electrical cabling, in connection with the electrification of the Liverpool-Manchester railway line.

http://pa.manchester.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=LQFR8JBC6K000

Deansgate is already wired so I assume they are using that address for Castlefield Junction to Ordsall Lane Junction.

Planning application gone in for works at Deansgate station.


Interesting. I didn't realise that these things needed planning permission. It's hardly going to get rejected is it?

You are right Mostly Lurking, all the documents are online for it and they note it as the Castlefield Railway Viaduct.

Documents online here http://www.publicaccess.manchester.gov.uk/associateddocs/MCCList1.aspx?097161/LO/2011/C1

Not really sure which thread to put this in but...

London Midland is pleased to announce today that it has selected preferred bidders for the manufacture, maintenance and financing of new rolling stock. This is intended for both London Midland and the Manchester to Scotland services operated by First TransPennine Express, which would result in significant additional capacity, making travel easier, more reliable and less crowded on some of the busiest sections of the rail network.

The preferred bidders are Siemens Plc for manufacture and maintenance of the new rolling stock, which are expected to be Desiro EMUs

It is now possible that these vehicles may have 110mph capability.

as a result of a request later in 2009 by the Department for Transport to include within the procurement requirements new electric rolling stock for use on the Manchester to Scotland route, approximately 40 of the new vehicles (probably in 10 x 4-car unit formation) are to be procured and subsequently transferred by London Midland to First TransPennine Express (FTPE). The transfer is intended to occur in early 2012


http://www.londonmidland.com/news/latest-news/new-rolling-stock-for-london-midland-and-for-first-transpennine-express/

You had me confused then thinking 2012 was a tad fast.
At present, delivery of the first unit is expected in the autumn of 2013 and it is anticipated that that FTPE will receive its vehicles ahead of London Midland.

Not sure if this should go in the electrification thread, but I've just come home to a flyer from Network Rail advising of the public consultation on the Ordsall Chord.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7Ut8-7n9ODc/ToN0lVlxzgI/AAAAAAAAAEw/2-f69ZkErrA/s640/IMG_8483.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hfIY9UYHR3I/ToN0srcpZzI/AAAAAAAAAE0/JG_gpXp0az4/s640/IMG_8486.JPG

http://www.northernhub.co.uk/Northern_Hub_Consultation_Launches.aspx

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx

I am obviously really over-excited as this feels like progress at long last. As it is a specific construction project, separate from the electrification, should I start a new thread or is there already a suitable one?

[Not done this before and don't want to clutter up the forum if inappropriate.]

there is a separate thread already called Castlefield Curve I think

Ordsall

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1345619&page=17

Thanks DiscoSteve and Watcher, I was being particularly dense tonight.

I was reading the correct thread a few weeks ago but couldn't think straight - I do get too excited. I'll put a note in the correct place.

Planning application gone in for works at Deansgate station.

Interesting. I didn't realise that these things needed planning permission. It's hardly going to get rejected is it?

You are right Mostly Lurking, all the documents are online for it and they note it as the Castlefield Railway Viaduct.

Documents online here http://www.publicaccess.manchester.gov.uk/associateddocs/MCCList1.aspx?097161/LO/2011/C1

It's not so much planning as listed building consent. The second document in the list, "Design and Access Statement and Heritage Statement" confirms that

"The viaduct was listed at Grade II on 4th February 1988 and also falls within the boundaries of the Castlefield Conservation Area."

It also explains the extent of the line covered by the application. So there's a need to ask for permission to do any works. I hadn't thought of this before, but there's more to this electrification than sticking a pole in the ground and hanging a wire on it. I now have a better idea of why it costs so much, if such a detailed application is needed for every bridge. Supporting comments are invited, and may be helpful.

There's a fairly interesting short history of the area. I don't know what will happen if the first hole dug reveals old Roman artifacts. Could hold it up for years?

Class 319's running the route between Victoria and Liverpool, which trains will run the Victoria-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool service? 319's or something different..?

There's a fairly interesting short history of the area. I don't know what will happen if the first hole dug reveals old Roman artifacts. Could hold it up for years?

The job stops while negotiations are held between NR, contractor and the Archaeologists. Given the high likelihood of this happening in this area, the (NR) programme and budget probably (should) include an allowance for a dig. They won't get long, depends on the importance of the finds.

However, most of the new structures don't reach the ground ...

There is an apocryphal tale on the Railway of the gang digging holes for the ECML electrification who found some old bones and corroded metal stuff. They decided that keeping quiet was the best plan, so they did so and re-buried the stuff outside the railway. Some years later, a real Archaeologist was stunned to find Roman skeletons, weapons and buckles buried at about the right depth on a known Roman site - but in black bin bags.

Class 319's running the route between Victoria and Liverpool, which trains will run the Victoria-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool service? 319's or something different..?

Given the "interesting" approach taken by DfT Rail on these matters, could be half a Eurostar come 2016 :). But yes, the cascaded 319's are the safest bet at the moment.

Best,
Slip

The job stops while negotiations are held between NR, contractor and the Archaeologists. Given the high likelihood of this happening in this area, the (NR) programme and budget probably (should) include an allowance for a dig. They won't get long, depends on the importance of the finds.

However, most of the new structures don't reach the ground ...

I see what you mean. Looking at the plans again, it seems they intend to bury the gantries into the bridge piers, or strap them to the outsides. So unless these are Roman bridge piers...

There is an apocryphal tale on the Railway of the gang digging holes for the ECML electrification who found some old bones and corroded metal stuff. They decided that keeping quiet was the best plan, so they did so and re-buried the stuff outside the railway. Some years later, a real Archaeologist was stunned to find Roman skeletons, weapons and buckles buried at about the right depth on a known Roman site - but in black bin bags.

Funny! However, more than 30 years back, I shared a flat with guys who were accustomed to picking the padlock of the gas meter and winding it forward, rather than worrying about 10p pieces all the time. We would put coins in the box when we saw the house gas bill arrive, the landlord's cue to empty the meter. One day, one guy was detailed to get £10 in 10p's from the bank and put them in the cash box. In the pub 2 days later, he suddenly remembered he had left them in the bags. As the landlord said nothing, I assume he wasn't an archaeologist. I moved long ago, so the story can now be told.

With Network rail wanting to electrify the Midlands Mainline, is there any chance we'd see something done to the Manchester - Sheffield line. If we still see the Liverpool services use that route it seems a waste using diesels over long stetches.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15111438

How many services per hour to Sheffield are there? 3ish? You'd hope that would be enough for an electric service but then when you think about it 2 of those would need to be diesel anyway to run to Cleethorpes and Norwich so I guess we won't see electric over the Hope Valley line for a long while yet.

I don't think I really want to see a string of OHLE through the Hope Valley...

From Network Rails proposed investment plan for CP5 and beyond. I've highlighted the bits from West Coast, East Coast and Midland reports

East Midlands

The Network RUS: Electrification Strategy considered issues affecting the whole national network and set out a potential longer term strategic approach to further electrification.

Its recommendations for further analysis are based on the identification of opportunities where future electrification of lines or infill schemes would help to enable efficient operation of passenger and freight services, increased diversionary route availability and future new patterns of service to operate.

Within the East Midlands Route, the Network RUS found that a financially positive bcse existed to electrify beyond Bedford to Corby, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield. Cascaded diesel trains would become available for enhancing long distance high speed services elsewhere. Network Rail is developing the scheme to update the business case but the decision on the timing and extent of any future extended electrification rests with Government.


Hope Valley – London freight capability
Construction of additional loops is proposed to allow operation of aggregates trains of
increased length and trailing load between the Hope Valley and the London area.

Peterborough – Nuneaton Capability

Capacity enhancements are also being examined between Peterborough and Nuneaton to accommodate the forecast growth in intermodal traffic generated by the loading gauge clearance of the Ipswich to Nuneaton corridor in CP4 and the anticipated doubling of the Birmingham New Street to Cambridge/Stansted Airport passenger service.

Journey time improvements on the total Birmingham – Peterborough corridor in association with signalling and switch and crossing renewals are proposed, whilst remodelling of the Leicester area to provide additional capacity, together with signal immunisation for electrification.


Electrification
Beyond the extended electrification of the MML, the Network RUS recommends that further work is undertaken in the future to consider the benefits from electrifying the following parts of the network:

Electrification of the route between Birmingham New Street and Derby would be part of a longer term strategy to convert the CrossCountry Birmingham to Nottingham service to electric traction. Electrifying between Nuneaton and Water Orton is part of a wider strategy to electrify between Birmingham and Nuneaton to provide a diversionary capacity for the Rugby to Birmingham route.

Felixstowe – Ipswich and Haughley Junction – Nuneaton electrification would allow many freight trains to be electrically hauled as well as a substantial number of passenger services.

Doncaster – Sheffield and South Kirkby Junction (Moorthorpe) to Swinton, if combined with MML, Birmingham – Wichnor Junction – Derby (above) and other electrification further south would allow many services to be converted to electric operation, including long distance services already running for many miles in an electrified area from Edinburgh, Newcastle and York.

Westcoast

Liverpool South Parkway turnback facility.

Proposals are being developed to provide a new turnback facility south of Liverpool South Parkway. This is to allow extra services to run through Liverpool Central station to a turnback facility to the south which will improve capacity in central Liverpool. This is currently a candidate scheme for CP5 and forms the second phase of infrastructure
interventions recommended by the draft Merseyside Long Term Rail Planning Strategy.

The Northern Hub

There are proposals for significant investment in infrastructure in the Manchester area which will improve service frequencies and connectivity across the whole of the North West region, and deliver significant capacity benefits and operational flexibility at Manchester Piccadilly station.

One component of the Northern Hub, the Ordsall curve has been approved by the Government in March 2011 and is now a committed scheme referred to as Phase 1 commencing in CP4 for delivery in 2016. Other interventions – Phase 2 – are also being considered, targeted for delivery in 2018.


North West electrification

The programme of electrification in the North West continues in CP5, with works expected to be completed around 2016. Local services on various routes will be converted to electric traction following the electrification of additional lines in the North West. A timetable recast on the Bolton and Atherton corridors will be needed to make best use of rolling stock following electrification of the Blackpool - Preston - Bolton - Manchester route, to meet growth and connectivity requirements.



North Trans-Pennine electrification

There are a wide range of benefits from electrifying the North Trans-Pennine route. These include increased deployment of electric multiple units replacing diesel rolling stock, increasing on train capacity, reducing journey times and improving performance.

Proposals are currently being developed to establish the appropriate scope and timescale for delivery of this scheme. North West platform lengthening A series of platform extensions are required to implement the rolling stock plan operated across the Network in order to allow the operation of longer trains giving improved capacity.

Hadfield/Dinting/Glossop journeytime improvements

A number of linespeed improvements are envisaged allowing shorter journey times.
Liverpool Lime Street capability improvements Work is underway to align and develop
opportunities that may arise from signalling, track and switch and crossing (S&C) renewals planned in 2016. Proposals that are being developed include additional and longer platforms, and work to increase operational functionality to create greater capacity for anticipated longer and increased service frequencies.

Expanding the electrified railway

The Network RUS: Electrification strategy considers electrification across the whole of the national network and sets out a potential longer term strategic approach for further electrification. Its recommendations for further analysis are based on the identification of opportunities where future electrification of lines or infill schemes would help to enable efficient operation of passenger and freight services, increased diversionary route availability and future new patterns of service to operate. The strategy has prioritised routes with the strongest business cases, but also recognises that future opportunities may arise from exploiting synergies with rolling stock replacement, development of infill schemes as part of a phased approach, exploitation of synergies with other enhancement projects and changes in funding availability and the industry appraisal process. Within the London North Western route, the key routes to consider for future electrification are:

Cross-Country routes: electrification of the key cross-country routes radiating from Birmingham is recommended as part of longer term strategy. This would enable key crosscountry long distance services to be operated by electric traction.

London Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill: electrification would enable the Chiltern line services to be converted to electric traction. An opportunity to develop this scheme may arise with the life expiry of Class 165 units during Control Period 6 and would enable more efficient operation of passenger services.

Walsall to Rugeley Trent Valley: electrification would enable the conversion of the Birmingham to Rugeley service to electric traction and provide an alternative electrified
route for passenger and freight trains from Birmingham to the West Coast Main line when the Stafford to Wolverhampton line is not available. It would also allow longer distance services to run via Walsall, providing the city with direct connecting with key locations to the north and south.

Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury: electrification would allow the conversion of the local
Birmingham to Shrewsbury services to electric traction and potentially enable a restructuring of services which would provide through trains from London Euston to Shrewsbury. Electrifying between Oxley Junction and Bushbury Junction would provide diversionary route opportunities.

Coventry to Nuneaton: electrification would provide an electrified diversionary route to
avoid the three-track section between Brinklow Junction and Attleborough South Junction.

Birmingham/Walsall to Nuneaton: as well as providing a valuable diversionary route
between Birmingham and London Euston, the route could potentially be used to provide capacity which is not available along the Coventry corridor.

Crewe to Chester: electrification would enable the Euston to Chester services to be converted to electric traction.

Wrexham Central to Bidston: electrification Wrexham Central to Bidston: electrification
would enable direct services to operate between Liverpool and Wrexham Central.

Oxenholme Lake District to Windermere: electrification would allow further diesel units to be allocated on other non-electrified routes

Lancaster to Morecombe/Heysham: electrification will enable the replacement of diesel units with faster and more environmentally friendly electric units.

Manchester Victoria – Stalybridge and Guide Bridge – Stalybridge – Leeds – Colton
Junction/Hull: electrification would allow the conversion of major cross-Pennine flows to fully electric operation

Horbury Junction – Wakefield Track and signalling renewals are planned which will create the opportunity for linespeed improvements giving rise to reduced journey
times between Nottingham and Leeds via Barnsley, in line with stakeholder aspirations.

Leeds area capacity and performance To accommodate growth and improve performance, it is envisaged there will be a need to create at Leeds station a new through Platform 13/14, a new Platform 0 and a longer Platform 17 together with a new ’G’ running line. It is proposed to develop improved access/egress arrangements at Neville Hill depot to mitigate the impact of incidents and service perturbation at this key facility for train services over a wide area. A scheme is in development to provide a station on a new site to the west of the existing Micklefield station with a turnback facility. The new station would be further expanded to create a parkway station close to the A1/M1 link road.

Huddersfield.

Humber area reduced headways Track renewals in the Immingham Humber Road – S****horpe and Kirton Lane – Stainforth Junction sections will allow signalling
enhancements to give reduced headways, so enhancing the ability to accommodate freight growth and improve performance. Opportunities to improve linespeeds will also be examined. It is proposed to take the opportunity presented by resignalling between Melton Lane and Gilberdyke to create shorter block sections and improve the linespeed and route availability.


The Northern Hub

There are proposals for significant investment in infrastructure in the Manchester area which will improve service frequencies and connectivity across the whole of the Northern England. One component of the Northern Hub, the Ordsall curve has been approved by the Government in March 2011 and is now a committed scheme. Whilst
outside the LNE Route boundaries, it will have significant impact on services throughout the north.

Electrification

The Network RUS: Electrification Strategy considered issues affecting the whole national network and set out a potential longer term strategic approach to further electrification. Its recommendations for further analysis are based on the identification of opportunities where future electrification of lines or infill schemes would help to enable efficient operation of passenger and freight services, increased diversionary route availability and future new patterns of service to operate.

Within LNE Route, the Network RUS found that a financially positive case existed to electrify beyond Bedford to Sheffield via Chesterfield. Cascaded diesel trains would then become available for enhancing LDHS services elsewhere. Network Rail is developing the scheme to update the business case, including possible extensions to Doncaster and/or South Kirkby in conjunction with possible cross- Pennine North electrification (see below) but the decision on timing and extent of any further
extended electrification rests with Government.

Cross-Pennine North electrification (York/Hull – Leeds – Huddersfield – Manchester) would allow many prime urban and interurban flows to be operated by electric traction and as a result almost certainly allow some improvement in journey times due to improved acceleration and performance on gradients. Additionally, improved flexibility for planned engineering works or service perturbation would arise since ECML electric trains could divert Doncaster – Leeds – York without the need for diesel haulage over the Leeds – York section.

From Network Rails proposed investment plan for CP5 and beyond. I've highlighted the bits from West Coast, East Coast and Midland reports

If it's worth electrifying a line for a short shuttle service like Lancaster - Morecambe or Oxenholme - Windermere, then it must be worth filling all the gaps over time.Maybe a rolling programme after the big projects are done? Although that will be years hence.

wouldn`t be better if they just re-doubled the track on the morecambe and windermere branch lines?

wouldn`t be better if they just double the track on the morecambe and windermere branch lines?

I doubt the traffic will ever justify re-doubling either track. The station has similar passenger numbers to Kemble, which is being re-doubled, but that goes on to Gloucester and Cheltenham one way, Swindon and London the other way, and more importantly, is used by several MPs.
Windermere and Morecambe are short branch lines primarily running a shuttle service, with a few trains carrying on elsewhere. Electrification would probably mean more through trains, and a more reliable service. Once the capital costs are done, electric is cheaper to run, but 10 miles of electrification don't come cheap!

Never thought of that.:bash:

They did a costing exercise on a post electrification shuttle service to Preston to see the shape of future services and they were surpised to find that running an hourly diesel service to Manchester Airport (under the wires almost the entire length) had a vastly better BCR than a simple diesel shuttle. probably convinced them they should electrify it instead and end the diesel island.

If you would like to comment on the Northern Hub proposals, electrification and the Ordsall Chord then you can respond at:
http://www.demographix.com/surveys/3G4N-QFBR/KSGV6TAW/

I was recently looking at something on Google Earth and noticed that a short section of the Chat Moss route is already electrified. This is the short Section between Newton Le Willows and Earlestown. It seems to form part of a short detour off the WCML.

It seems an odd piece of electrification. Does anyone know why it was electrified. I am presuming that it was done to allow elecrtric stock to call at one or both stations say on a route from Crewe to say Preston but I don't think any electric traction uses it now.

Also when the line from Manchester to the junction to the East of Newton Le Willows ( I don't know its name) is electrified allowing Scottish Services to use this route from late 2013 it would also seem there could be electric Traction from Manchester Victoria to Euston etc. Talk has been of extending the Euston Crewe stopper to Manchester it could go to Victoria instead. Alliance intend using this route if they ever get it approved

The idea was for the Euston - Crewe stopper was to be extended to Liverpool (via Runcorn), in return for loosing its half hourly service to Birmingham. I'm not aware of any talk of it being extended to Manchester?

The idea was for the Euston - Crewe stopper was to be extended to Liverpool (via Runcorn), in return for loosing its half hourly service to Birmingham. I'm not aware of any talk of it being extended to Manchester?

Thanks for that. I seem to remember something about this now.

There has been talk on another thread or perhaps another forum of extending the Crewe stopper to Piccadilly via the Airport. It is only talk and there are no proposals as far as I am aware.

I could be thinking of another spot but I believe it was to allow electric freight to turn around.

The Earlestown-Parkside electrification is part of what is effectively the slow road of the WCML north of Warrington. Mainly used by goods, but I do remember once going that way on a passenger train - think it was the overnight London-Fort William.

Anyway that's why it was electrified.

I was recently looking at something on Google Earth and noticed that a short section of the Chat Moss route is already electrified. This is the short Section between Newton Le Willows and Earlestown. It seems to form part of a short detour off the WCML.

It seems an odd piece of electrification. Does anyone know why it was electrified. I am presuming that it was done to allow elecrtric stock to call at one or both stations say on a route from Crewe to say Preston but I don't think any electric traction uses it now.

Cheap bit of sensible work undertaken when the big yellow electrification train was out in 73-74 (?). The intention was always to wire the Chat Moss line between Manchester and Liverpool, and so it made sense to electrify the junction work for the divergence north/south off the WCML to allow future through service. The local rail layout also allowed for a joint feed/substation to be built adjacent to both lines, further easing any future electrification works.

Best,
Slip

I had a look at that too; I'm not too familiar with that part of the world, didn't know Culcheth was so close to Leigh. Would a Culcheth/Leigh Parkway station be in order? Connecting bus services between them and towards north Warrington? It seems to me to be a (how I hate this term)......no brainer!

Cheap bit of sensible work undertaken when the big yellow electrification train was out in 73-74 (?). The intention was always to wire the Chat Moss line between Manchester and Liverpool, and so it made sense to electrify the junction work for the divergence north/south off the WCML to allow future through service. The local rail layout also allowed for a joint feed/substation to be built adjacent to both lines, further easing any future electrification works.

Also acts a diversionary route - bear in mind that the WCML is four tracks south of Winwick Junction and north of Parkside Junction, but the direct line between the two is only two tracks. Back in the early days of the railways, all north-south trains passed through Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows, until the cut-off was constructed at a later date.

Both Mr Slip and 4COL are spot on in all respects. As a side benefit it now means that the Chat Moss route can be tackled in two halves.

In answer to the question about Man - PRE electrics, an ugly rumour is 323, but 319 are the more likely (to begin with, as a source is visible)

Aww 323's are not so bad, they can shift at least!

According to the little book of spiel that NR were giving out at the rolling road shows, work for OLE at Victoria should start next year. The extra bays coming into use in 2018!! :lol: I think the fumes will have killed me by that time!

There aren't many 323s are there? AFAIK they do Birmingham's cross city, New St - Walsall, and maybe some services to Wolverhampton, as well as our local services. Unless of course London Midland get a replacement and we inherit theirs.

I shall go to a road show next week and make my feelings known about the Hazel Grove diesel situation! When I was a wee nipper, the Altrincham - Alderley Edge via Stockport or Styal timetable was the nearest we ever got in Manchester to a proper suburban network.

There aren't many 323s are there?

Update: strike 323, substitute 350 / 380...


... but don't get carried away just yet.


TonyH1, don't get too attached to your new bays, they may go elsewhere ...

Update: strike 323, substitute 350 / 380...


... but don't get carried away just yet.


TonyH1, don't get too attached to your new bays, they may go elsewhere ...

OK you got me, is this good?

OK you got me, is this good?

They are new(er), all built in last 10 years with some in the last year.

I found the HUB presentations useful but it was quite clear none of the detail has been worked out. (eg bay platforms at victoria or extend electrification to rochdale/stalybridge or both)

I didnt realise they where looking at extending platforms at Oxford Road, though they arn't planning anything at salford central (not in scope) except to not to do anything to prevent 6 platform faces at some point in the future.

Class 350/380 are version of Siemens Desiro so a fair bit newer on average than a 323

The 380s currently run in Scotland after a protracted introduction to service. Ive not had a ride on any yet but they look mean as hell!

Go on Joseph Locke. Put me out of my misery, what do you know? I put a laughing face for 2018 as I hope to have moved away from Victoria station by then!!

Class 350/380 are version of Siemens Desiro so a fair bit newer on average than a 323

I presume Locke knows their considering an option like extending electrification to Stalybridge and building the sidings there but he cant tell us because of confidentiality. I dont see the advantage, thats an awful lot of empty stock thats going to be trundling the short distance Victoria to Stalybridge to terminate multiple times every day, for years. Must eventually add up to a hell of a lot of wasted money.

The 380s currently run in Scotland after a protracted introduction to service. Ive not had a ride on any yet but they look mean as hell!
Urgggghhh - just google imaged for Class 380 - worst looking implementation of a through corridor facility at the front of an EMU/DMU i've ever seen!!!!

I presume Locke knows their considering an option like extending electrification to Stalybridge and building the sidings there but he cant tell us because of confidentiality. I dont see the advantage, thats an awful lot of empty stock thats going to be trundling the short distance Victoria to Stalybridge to terminate multiple times every day, for years. Must eventually add up to a hell of a lot of wasted money.


There is already one bay at Stalybridge.

Next year they are supposed to start building a new west bay accessible only from the Ashton line.

This is all part of the re signalling

See the attached discussion on another Forum

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50441

Yes I know.

I have been on class 380s on the Ayrshire coastal route. They are a smooth ride, comfortable enough to commute on, but not so sure for anything longer and they are spacious for yer wee ones pram.

Aestically they actually look like a train, not a bus or a container on wheels. But yes that front corridor is pure ugly. Much prefer the class 338.

The 380s currently run in Scotland after a protracted introduction to service. Ive not had a ride on any yet but they look mean as hell!

Go on Joseph Locke. Put me out of my misery, what do you know? I put a laughing face for 2018 as I hope to have moved away from Victoria station by then!!

Anything I write will always sound mysterious, because I honestly am not at liberty to confirm or deny anything like this, and if I did it would be easy for my clients to work out who I am. WZ is spot on.

There's nothing I can do! I'd love to be able to share some of the good stuff that's being developed in the northwest, so in the meantime please bear with me. That said, I do read these threads and the information, views, opinions and views are informing decisions in the real world.

As to "What EMU", given that the next lot of electrification (which may or may not include to Stalybridge, to Leeds via Diggle, to Rochdale, etc.) won't happen until the current round of wires goes up, so what franchises with inter-urban EMU stock are due for renewal around the start of CP5 (2014)?

The 142s should have been crushed by then, the 15x fleet will be nearly there, but the south will have upgraded their 319s, 32x etc. so those will probably be the first arrivals.

I saw some guys in Hi-Viz with plans set out on a trestle table infront of Victoria yesterday. Hopefully signs of planning work for redevelopment work etc. :)
Anybody else know what is happening currently?

Balfour Beatty awarded 1st phase of Manchester-Liverpool electrification
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/northwest-triangle-electrification-contract-awarded.html

Looks like we may have to alter the heading of this if the following from the BBC is to believed. Will be revealed in the Autumn statement tomorrow

The government is supporting Network Rail in electrifying the north-Transpennine route between Manchester and Leeds. It will cut journey times between Liverpool and Newcastle by 45 minutes

Cheers
Chris W

15 mins cut off Leeds-Manchester??

Does that mean they will close the Ashton - Victoria line to passenger trains?

So what will be the difference in journey time between Liverpool and Leeds post electrification?

Does that mean they will close the Ashton - Victoria line to passenger trains?

Why would it mean that?

Why would it mean that?

Because Ashton is to be served by Metrolink. Trains from Leeds could go straight to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge from Stalybridge.

There would be no need to electrify the Stalybridge - Victoria section

Trains are going to run via Victoria though as part of the Northern Hub and reduce throat movements at Picadilly, nothing here changes the need for that.

Are they going to electrify both routes from Stalybridge into Manchester (I suppose it's only a short section to Guide Bridge)

That is the suggestion I think.

Because Ashton is to be served by Metrolink. Trains from Leeds could go straight to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge from Stalybridge.

There would be no need to electrify the Stalybridge - Victoria section

Doesn't make sense to reduce rail capacity and flexibility when they're proposing spending hundreds of millions increasing it. Indeed the Metrolink probably makes Ashton a better bet for heavy rail services as it increases the catchment area of the station.

Doesn't make sense to reduce rail capacity and flexibility when they're proposing spending hundreds of millions increasing it. Indeed the Metrolink probably makes Ashton a better bet for heavy rail services as it increases the catchment area of the station.

I don't think people will go from Droylsden to Ashton on a 12 minute frequency tram to catch a 30 minute frequency train back toward Manchester. I think you wait 40 minutes then 20 minutes on the Ashton - Manchester service

I can understand the need to reduce the number of trains crossing the approach to Piccadilly though.

I don't think people will go from Droylsden to Ashton on a 12 minute frequency tram to catch a 30 minute frequency train back toward Manchester. I think you wait 40 minutes then 20 minutes on the Ashton - Manchester service

I can understand the need to reduce the number of trains crossing the approach to Piccadilly though.

The Ashton line is expected to have a 6 minute frequency, but that's not what I meant.

I mean that Metrolink improves the case for TPE to serve Ashton (providing connections to locations beyond Manchester CC such as the Airport, Leeds and Liverpool) because it makes Ashton station more accessible to the people of Droylesden and East Manchester, increasing the potential passenger numbers. Think of it like Virgin serving Piccadilly and Stockport.

A fair assessment.

That is the suggestion I think.

Excellent. Like it.

I would first gauge Tameside Council's thoughts on trains out of Ashton. Not that they of course decide these matters, but they are an authority that takes a great deal of interest in these matters.

Excellent. Like it.

I would first gauge Tameside Council's thoughts on trains out of Ashton. Not that they of course decide these matters, but they are an authority that takes a great deal of interest in these matters.

Really? I find them totally disinterested in local heavy rail, even when I worked for them. Only time they did get involved was for the photo opportunity and ribbon cut when Stalybridge got refurbished.


Funding to improve appearance of stations using 'Britain in Bloom' monies
Road/footpath signage improvements
Request for alterations for a busy junction outside Ashton-under-Lyne station without pedestrian phase
Schools partnership to resolve ticketless travel
Improved litter collection around station entrances

all got a total lack of silence.

Never mind the constant dithering about whether they wanted Guide Bridge or Stalybridge as the station for stopping TPE services.

TMBC have only vehicular motor traffic and Metrolink as their priorities.

Evening all!

I had a walk up to Castlefield on my lunch break today as it had been mentioned some work had been done regarding the future overhead lines during the Christmas shutdown...

Not much I might add but some small progress I noticed is that next to the Roman Fort, Castlefield viaduct now has the metal brakets that will eventually have the 'stanchions' on top to hold up the overheads. Hoorah! Theres only about 3 or 4 so far.

As far as I know this is the first metal work of the project. I did take a couple of photos but ive not got my usb cable. Also not exactly much to write home about! Anyway at least something is happening

It's gotta start somewhere Tony! Great news.

I was driving down the M602, towards Liverpool last week & cast my eyes quickly to the left at the section of track that runs parallel. There's really nothing to see at the mo, but I did smile at the thought of soon to be overheads, copper wiring (theft dependent) & much more in the way of traffic. Something akin to the M1 / Mill Hill Broadway section at Hendon :)

Question - the section of track near Eccles is single. Is this likely to be doubled, as part of the electrication UG (although, there's what appears to be a very tall & narrow brick footbridge & I'm wondering if the track is single because of the narrow arch in this bridge)?

Ive not been up close to check but from a distance it appears they did some work on Wigan NW wires during the Christmas period, I saw pickers up and it appears the support columns have been strengthened and/or beefier insulators and tension wires installed.

It's gotta start somewhere Tony! Great news.
Question - the section of track near Eccles is single. Is this likely to be doubled, as part of the electrication UG (although, there's what appears to be a very tall & narrow brick footbridge & I'm wondering if the track is single because of the narrow arch in this bridge)?

It's not single here, what you see from the M602 is the freight spur off to the ship canal. The double track manline is behind it.

Doh! Of course, I forgot about that - thanks Rob :)

It would be good if they were to tart up Eccles station in the process. It once was quite a grand 4 platformed station. Of course, the M602 completely sliced the station & 4 track in half.

Another question (& Volde may be able to answer this) - has the station become even more desolate, since the arrival of the Met?

Platforms 3 and 4 still exist at Eccles, behind the fence and somewhat overgrown. The freight spur currently runs between them. The current Manchester bound platform is/was an island platform.

While it would be nice to reinstate platform 3 so it can be used as a turn back like Stalybridge or allow for more stopping services out of the paths of faster trains, making the existing platforms more accessible, better shelters, PIDs and a proper tickets office are probably more realistic hopes.

Eccles used to have a proper station building to, albeit timber, which burnt down in 1979 never to be replaced.

Doh! Of course, I forgot about that - thanks Rob :)

It would be good if they were to tart up Eccles station in the process. It once was quite a grand 4 platformed station. Of course, the M602 completely sliced the station & 4 track in half.

Another question (& Volde may be able to answer this) - has the station become even more desolate, since the arrival of the Met?

Think I have mentioned this before, but the plan is, that if Alliance rail get the go ahead to operate services from London Euston they will operatate via ECC, they (Alliance) have said they will invest heavily in ECC station and also make it a Parkway.

Think I have mentioned this before, but the plan is, that if Alliance rail get the go ahead to operate services from London Euston they will operatate via ECC, they (Alliance) have said they will invest heavily in ECC station and also make it a Parkway.

Thanks both IHeart & Wingy :)

Wingy - where would the Alliance service be operating from London to, to include Eccles?

Are they in direct competition with Virgin?

I'm actually reading up on their website right now

http://www.alliancerail.co.uk

:)

Ummm make Eccles a Parkway? I'm not disputing what you've said Wingy, just somewhat perplexed as to how they plan to do that. Parkways are commuter stations with large car parks, Eccles few dozen spaces are nearly always full already... with no space to expand.

:facepalm:

Another question (& Volde may be able to answer this) - has the station become even more desolate, since the arrival of the Met?

Like most rail stations surrounding Manchester, Eccles has actually experienced an increase in recent years (but unfortunately I don't have the figures for 2000 and the following years after Metrolink was built).

But the Metrolink is slow and stops at way too many stations along the route into town, and the trains don't come often enough (although they are fast). So Eccles residents are faced with a dilemma when deciding how to get to town. I think most would opt for the train if the station itself improved, with a higher frequency of trains, PIDs and maybe even a ticket office.

Thanks Volde - I knew you'd come good :)

IHeart - they could build a multi-storey, where the current car park is now, to make Eccles a 'parkway'.

A very interesting read on Alliance there Wingy. Looking forward to seeing their plans develop.

IHeart - they could build a multi-storey, where the current car park is now, to make Eccles a 'parkway'.


LOL there would be more space taken by the up an down ramps than spaces ;)

I 'spose they could build a platform/raft over the line itself, putting the line in a retrospective cut and cover tunnel.