Mercanaries , how?

Read the article I posted.

I have nothing against Turks or Turkey,

Why the lame red-herring then?

it's a country that's investing more in Ethiopia than any other East African country - respect to them.

No need for fabrications, the East African country currently with the most Turkish investment is Kenya:

Turkey has $160 billion worth of investments in infrastructure in 70 different countries."Kenya is the hotbed of investment in the region and we want to capitalise on this to access other markets in the region," - Source (http://allafrica.com/stories/201006281148.html)

Considering the unprecendent large Turkish delegation to an African country that we saw a few weeks ago in Mogadishu, Turkish investment in Somalia could eclipse both countries in the long-term.

Indeed respect to any country willing to invest in our region.

My piont is that if these peacekeepers were Turks most of y'all would praise them as freedom fighters instead of Bantu mercenaries.

You really don't have a point other than phantom claims. If these peacekeepers were Djiboutians - our closest kin - the opinion would still be the same, and that's "its all about the benjamins" and a clever tactic by Guelleh to stay in power. Just have a look at the responses to Ras Siyan's article about possible Djiboutian peacekeepers in the main Somalia thread.

Al Shabab would still control Mogadishu and most of the country if it weren't for the AU troops.

Al-Shabaab lost its popularity due to its hideous response to the drought-crisis. Think about it; the AU forces have been battling al-Shabaab since 2007, with the same NATO hardware, but could not advance further than Villa Somalia.

Then suddenly a positive change swept the capital in the form of a competent government providing a viable alternative, while at the same time this rag-tag militia made one blunder after another until they made the biggest of all during the crisis and they found themselves without support, without recruits, while the government had popular leaders like Farmaajo, Abdi-weli, it had well-paid Somali Battalions trained in Djibouti and Uganda beginning to enter the battlefield, and Al-Shabaab began to lose one town after another all across the South and central parts of the country.

Yet individuals who most definitely haven't followed the situation carefully just generalise the Al-Shabaab withdrawal as an "AU forces" victory, completely ignoring the fact that the immense pressure that is exerted on Al-Shabaab outside Mogadishu (and inside) comes from Somali troops, where AU forces are nowhere to be seen, and which caused them to relocate their troops to their main centers of powers that were in doubt:

Most of the retreating al-Shabaab combatants headed towards Lower Shabelle and Middle Shabelle regions, respectively south and north of Mogadishu, in what they claimed was a "change in tactic".- Source (http://allafrica.com/stories/201108070096.html)

If Turkey is investing in Ethiopia good for you guys, but why comment on when they do the same in Somalia? In addition, Turkey is a rich country, which doesn't need a hand-out from likes of U.S and E.U.

And for the issue of peacekeeping I believe poor countries do it all for the money. Just take a look at Haiti for instance, where U.N peacekeepers were found spreading cholera to already suffering population.
Why would I be against anyone investing in Somalia? You are confusing this thread with the one that got locked.

If the peacekeepers were Turks, would you be against them like you are against Uganda, Burundi, etc? Let's see if you can be honest..

That they brought deases were obviously the last thing they needed, but cholera would had been the least of their worries without the peacekeepers.

So you are suggesting that peacekeepers around the world should risk their lifes for free?
Not suggesting anything, Somali people never invited Ugandan peackeeper into their country in the first place. So you think people are happy seeing their relatives/countrymen killed by UnInvited contractors?

By your judgement Somalis would still applaud Muslim/Arab peacekeepers for killing them when they were not invted in the first place?

If Turkey is investing in Ethiopia good for you guys, but why comment on when they do the same in Somalia? In addition, Turkey is a rich country, which doesn't need a hand-out from likes of U.S and E.U.

And for the issue of peacekeeping I believe poor countries do it all for the money. Just take a look at Haiti for instance, where U.N peacekeepers were found spreading cholera to already suffering population.

Lol doesn't need a hand-out? Oh please.
Also what is your point with Haiti. They didn't spread cholera for extra money?

The Ugandans seem to be there for something more then money. Most of the equipment is on loan, once the mission is over it comes back or the Ugandans can buy it at a discount. The extra wages for the Ugandan troops is covered by the American's but the Ugandan government doesn't gain as it still pays the same amount that the troops would get if they didn't go to Somalia. Also Musevini risks unpopularity back home, I don't think the Ugandan electorate are to pleased with seeing dozens of Ugandan's coming home in coffins.

Why would I be against anyone investing in Somalia? You are confusing this thread with the one that got locked.

If the peacekeepers were Turks, would you be against them like you are against Uganda, Burundi, etc? Let's see if you can be honest..

That they brought deases were obviously the last thing they needed, but cholera would had been the least of their worries without the peacekeepers.

I am not confusing this thread with one that got locked yesterday. Mr. Yoniii, just take a look at your posting #5 here, your the one who mention Turkey, not me.

Constantine, I'm on my Iphone so I can't quote all that text.

It has nothing to do with Turks, I simply don't believe most locals would be so anti-peacekeepers if they were Turks compared to Ugandians.

About Turkish investment, I thought their industrial parks in Ethiopia were bigger, I stand corrected.

Yonni, what happened to the Somali dictator that shelled its own people? He got deposed. This nonsense about Somalis tolerating one murderer over another just because of ethnicity or faith is straight bullshit, for if Somalis were that tolerant and docile, the dictator - of both SOMALI and MUSLIM heritage - would still be in power.

The AU forces were unpopular because they shelled residential neighbourhoods, killing many civilians, this stopped with Farmaajo's administration, who established military tribunals punishing war-criminals, and steadily both the government and Amisom grew in popularity until they were seen as the only viable alternative to rebuilding a prosperous Somalia.

I can't believe this ish about faith and ethnicity people are pushing here, its really weak and intellectually bankrupt, but at the same time very telling......

Not suggesting anything, Somali people never invited Ugandan peackeeper into their country in the first place. So you think people are happy seeing their relatives/countrymen killed by UnInvited contractors?

By your judgement Somalis would still applaud Muslim/Arab peacekeepers for killing them when they were not invted in the first place?

^^^^ excellent Point Butembo.

^^^^ excellent Point Butembo.

Sxb, wlcm back. I haven't seen u here in a long time.

Constantine, I'm on my Iphone so I can't quote all that text.

It has nothing to do with Turks, I simply don't believe most locals would be so anti-peacekeepers if they were Turks compared to Ugandians.

About Turkish investment, I thought their industrial parks in Ethiopia were bigger, I stand corrected.

well, your doing fine with your iphone. There you have it yonii, I admited something.:lol:

Sxb, wlcm back. I haven't seen u here in a long time.

Mahadsanid sxb, I am usually around, just like to read instead of posting, especially if it concerns wadanka.

Mahadsanid sxb, I am usually around, just like to read instead of posting, especially if it concerns wadanka.

Rageedi baad tahay. Me too.

Not suggesting anything, Somali people never invited Ugandan peackeeper into their country in the first place. So you think people are happy seeing their relatives/countrymen killed by UnInvited contractors?

By your judgement Somalis would still applaud Muslim/Arab peacekeepers for killing them when they were not invted in the first place?
I'm obviously against shelling civilians, a soldier should always do what he can to spare civilians from getting hurt, but you rarely reach freedom without casualties.

Yonni, what happened to the Somali dictator that shelled its own people? He got deposed. This nonsense about Somalis tolerating one murderer over another just because of ethnicity or faith is straight bullshit, for if Somalis were that tolerant and docile, the dictator - of both SOMALI and MUSLIM heritage - would still be in power.

The AU forces were unpopular because they shelled residential neighbourhoods, killing many civilians, this stopped with Farmaajo's administration, who established military tribunals punishing war-criminals, and steadily both the government and Amisom grew in popularity until they were seen as the only viable alternative to rebuilding a prosperous Somalia.

I can't believe this ish about faith and ethnicity people are pushing here, its really weak and intellectually bankrupt, but at the same time very telling......
You are generalizing all Somalis, I stated that I believe that ethnicity and religion do matter for a lot of people but obviously not all.

I personally don't believe it matters to you, I'm referring to the likes of ja'far and waranle.

Thats some funny logic there Yoniii!

What a red herring. :|

So ... what do we have here?

:lol:
Somalis would welcome (uninvited) Muslims soldiers but oppose Ugandan ones eh? Should have noted our reaction to the possibility of Djibouti troops.

I personally don't believe it matters to you, I'm referring to the likes of ja'far and waranle.

:ohno:

:lol: Leave Yoniii alone guys. As a fellow Christian and countryman, I must defend his somewhat illogical views.

The reality is that outside intervention, Muslim or not, is a failure in Somalia and always will be.

I am against all foreign troops in Somalia, and once they do their job, the AU troops need to leave ASAP.

Once the war ends, an amendment should be made in the constitution to make illegal for foreign soldiers to step foot in Somali territory.

Once the war ends, an amendment should be made in the constitution to make illegal for foreign soldiers to step foot in Somali territory.

It's basically a unwritten rule for all Somalis anyway.
It's not our fault Non Somalis are too stupid to heed it.

But sure, something formal would work as well

It's basically a unwritten rule for all Somalis anyway.
It's not our fault Non Somalis are too stupid to heed it.


Well then I guess the TFG isn't Somali because that's what they've been asking for since 2006.

Well then I guess the TFG isn't Somali because that's what they've been asking for since 2006.

Yeah but they are just basically the bitch of the West and whoever has the money.

I want them all jailed when Somalia has peace and preferably kept there for life. I blame them for those foreigners stepping foot in Somalia.

Yeah but they are just basically the bitch of the West and whoever has the money.

I want them all jailed when Somalia has peace and preferably kept there for life. I blame them for those foreigners stepping foot in Somalia.

:lol: A bit draconian, no? Every conviction should be after a fair trial. But can Somalia afford the costs? I'd rather that money be spent on building the nation than in trying to convict people.

I think Somalia should start with a blank slate. The past 20 years have been mired with untold atrocities. It would be wise to go the way of Rwanda and just concentrate on rebuilding and reconciliation. Let the past remain in the past.


btw, who's that in the pic? :naughty:

Somalis can't have a clean slate until the entire framework that their political culture was based upon is totally fixed from the ground up.

The only upside to the civil war that I can think of is that we are now able to remake our political futures without a dictatorship in the way.

As much as I believe that the TFG is the lesser evil in the fight against Al Shabab, I don't like what it is based upon or the circumstances made for it.

Why the lame red-herring then?



No need for fabrications, the East African country currently with the most Turkish investment is Kenya:

Turkey has $160 billion worth of investments in infrastructure in 70 different countries."Kenya is the hotbed of investment in the region and we want to capitalise on this to access other markets in the region," - Source (http://allafrica.com/stories/201006281148.html)

Considering the unprecendent large Turkish delegation to an African country that we saw a few weeks ago in Mogadishu, Turkish investment in Somalia could eclipse both countries in the long-term.

Zero chance Constatine.A delegation to Mogadishu makes you think so?There was a bigger delegation to Kenya last year and held a workshop in the KICC for a week.Not to mention several Turkish schools and cultural exchange program.:)

OFVGDgx9UXU

r_zIUbTkd6M

tdQnfL0hDww

Great for Kenya, unlike you and Abesha I don't harbour hatred or dislike for a particular ethnic group or nationality. If I want the best for my people, it doesn't mean I secretly have a voodoo doll of Meles or Kibaki with needles in them.

You are generalizing all Somalis, I stated that I believe that ethnicity and religion do matter for a lot of people but obviously not all.

If I were to say: The average human doesn't tolerate pedophiles anywhere near their children, would you come back and tell me I'm generalizing mankind?

That's basically what your doing in your reply, its illogical, as Hersh already pointed out. Somalis don't want murderers in their house be it Somali/Muslim/African or any other ethnicity/nationality/faith.

President Sharif Opens Military Camp in Capital

By ABDIKAFAR HOSH 16/9/11 @Somalia Report

President Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed today helped lay the foundation for new military barracks at a Somali National Army base in Mogadishu’s Jazeera Coast. The barracks will be used for new army recruits who recently completed training by the African Union forces (known as AMISOM) in Mogadishu.

“It is very important to empower the capacity of the Somali National forces because the national soldiers are the real caretakers of every nation,” the president said in a speech to the recruits.

“The ability to fire a gun, put on a uniform or march does not mean that you are a national soldier. Soldiers have knowledge, discipline and culture to maintain the dignity of the nation,” he added.

President reminded the recruits that the Somali people are depending on them to resolve the chaos in the country.

“The Somali people are waiting for you as national soldiers to free them the instability and foreign enemies who have invaded their country. I am urging you not lose these high expectations of your people,” he said.

The construction project of the military barracks at the unnamed camp will take six months to complete at a cost of $ 3.2 million and is funded by the European Union.

Wafula Wamunyiyi, AMISOM's deputy special representative, said that if the TFG can establish a functional military force then foreign peacekeeping forces will not be needed in the country. - Source (http://www.somaliareport.com/index.php/post/1581)

http://cdn.horseedmedia.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/IMG_0214.jpg
http://radiomuqdisho.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/IMG_9360.jpg
http://radiomuqdisho.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/IMG_8811.jpg

If I were to say: The average human doesn't tolerate pedophiles anywhere near their children, would you come back and tell me I'm generalizing mankind?

That's basically what your doing in your reply, its illogical, as Hersh already pointed out. Somalis don't want murderers in their house be it Somali/Muslim/African or any other ethnicity/nationality/faith.
Uff besmam. You are either in denal or misunderstanding me.

I'm not saying that it would be "better" to be innocently attacked by a Muslim peacekeeper compared with a non-Muslim, but the sheer idea of an peacekeeping mission consisting of a non-Muslim soldiers are seen, BY SOME, as they are being attacked by "christian invaders" with calls for jihad etc.

If you are going to come back and deny this, fine, live in your imagenary world.

Yonii you are moving the goal posts to suit your non-existent argument. You invoked the Turks and claimed we would tolerate them as violent peacekeepers over any "non-Muslim" peacekeepers responsible for shelling neighbourhoods, I made it quite clear with multiple examples how this line of thinking is a fallacy. This has nothing to do with denial.

There used to be 3000 well-behaved Soviet soldiers in Kismayu, and Berbera training Somali soldiers, and none of the locals felt like they were invaded by "Atheist invaders", however if they had been a violent force, responsible for many deaths, you bet your ass their presence would be seen with intense dislike. In fact the Barre government eventually kicked them out in a humiliating fashion when the Soviets switched sides.

I'm not saying that it would be "better" to be innocently attacked by a Muslim peacekeeper compared with a non-Muslim, but the sheer idea of an peacekeeping mission consisting of a non-Muslim soldiers are seen, BY SOME, as they are being attacked by "christian invaders" with calls for jihad etc.


Well, duh, Al Shabab uses this as an excuse to continue their idiocy.

A good way to get rid of that free propaganda would be not allowing Christian (or any IMO) peacekeepers in. As long as the AU is in Mogadishu, their "jihad" is justified in their eyes. Let's not give them the chance. The right track is arming the TFG military to fight them on their own.

Al Shabab has lost legitimacy in the eyes of 99% of Somalis due to their actions, so let's not give them the chance for legitimization of their existence.

huge blast in moqdishu (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15166107)

huge blast in moqdishu (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15166107)

Fucking hell that's a nasty attack.

The attacker is said to be a Kenyan citizen.

Reportedly 65 dead. RIP. :cripes:

What a useless group. This is a clear desperate measure after their offensives in Dhusa mareeb and Dhobleey were repulsed by pro-government troops, now they resort to targeting disadvantaged Somali students sitting out an examination for Turkish scholarships.

I absolutely can't see how any self-respecting Somali person could support such a vile Anti-Somali organisation targeting Somalia's youth and future brain. They are trying to spoil the progress that is being made in the country.

Reportedly 65 dead. RIP. :cripes:

That's crazy :ohno::ohno::ohno:

May they all rest in peace Inshallah.

Up to 70 now. I think (although I may be wrong) this is the worst terrorist attack in Somalia ever. And once again, Al Shaydan cowardly targets the youth that may have made a difference in the country. :no:

Death toll is now exceeding 70, eye witnesses also put the estimate in excess of 100 deaths.

Xusein, this is the worst attack of its kind in Somalia, but before the invention of the lovely word terrorism in our dictionary, much worse attacks have happened. There have been reprisals not more than a generation back when up to 2,000 people were being massacred in a day. Old timers like me don't fret at these kinds of things but the post-terrorism generation blows attacks like this out of proportion in comparison to much worse previous events that weren't associated with the T-word. That being said, the trend of using surprise bomb attacks is one that has become a fixture in Somali society and has even manifested itself in clan feuds where rivals now place roadside IEDs against enemy figureheads. The conflicts (across the nation) have taken a turn for the worst, permanently.

..and the vicious circle continues. :cripes:

http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z464/guulet/somali.jpg

www.worldbulletin.net
Sunday, October 09, 2011

The fate of a major hospital in Mogadishu, Benadir, is about to change with the arrival of Turkey's help.

The fate of a major hospital in Mogadishu, Benadir, is about to change with the arrival of Turkey's help.

Turkey's Kimse Yok Mu Association began providing assistance to the Benadir Hospital where surgery rooms are unoperational and patients have to sleep on the floor.

Kimse Yok Mu Association will make investments worth 10 million USD in the Benadir Hospital and bring many technical equipments from Turkey.

Kimse Yok Mu Association will take Benadir's medical staff to Turkey for training purposes.

Speaking to the AA, the Association's Africa Coordinator Orhan Erdogan said that "once all the needs have been met, the Benadir Hospital will reach the standards of hospitals in Turkey".

Possible repost, but look:


Living standards

Remarkably for a country which has suffered two decades of conflict, living standards have slowly improved.

Somalia remains poor in relation to most African countries, but its economy and its people have found ways to get by without a government.

Somalia's GDP has risen steadily throughout the last two decades, as has its life expectancy. And while neighbouring countries have been hit hard by the HIV/Aids epidemic, Somalia has largely escaped.

Although health facilities remain poor in most regions, the chances of a newborn child surviving to its first birthday have actually increased slightly since 1991.
Somalia - how has life changed?
Index 1991 2011 (or latest)

Life expectancy


46 years


50 years

Birth rate


46


44

Death rate


19


16

GDP per capita


$210


$600

Infant mortality


116 deaths <1yr, per thousand births


109 deaths <1yr, per thousand births

Access to safe water


35%


29%

Adult literacy


24%


38%

Sources: CIA/UN/UNICEF
Excuse the format.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12285365

I assume the numbers don't tell the real picture. You could say obviously in places like Muqdisho and the south, living standards are worse than they've ever been while in northern locales, they are probably better than they ever were before the war started.

BlsqIxR_A6I

The Price of Failure

How much has the collapse of Somalia cost the world? $55 billion -- and here's where it went.

BY JOHN NORRIS, BRONWYN BRUTON | OCTOBER 5, 2011

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia1.jpg

On the morning of Oct. 4, a truck bomb exploded on a well-trafficked street outside the Ministry of Education in the Somali capital of Mogadishu, killing upwards of 80 bystanders, many of them university students. The attack brought an end to the relative lull that had held in Mogadishu since August, when fighters for the al-Shabab guerrilla forces withdrew from the city, and offered a stark reminder that the world's most notorious failed state remains just that.

Somalia's ruin can't simply be chalked up as a case of Western neglect. For decades, the United States and international organizations have poured money into Somalia despite its relative geopolitical insignificance -- first as a Cold War bulwark, then as a humanitarian emergency, and now as an effort to contain crime and terrorism. Just how much has Somalia cost us? To figure out the true financial burden that Somalia's conflict has imposed on the world since 1991, we used a variety of official and unofficial sources, combined with some educated guesswork, and came up with an estimate of $55 billion. That figure includes everything from aid supplied by the Red Cross and defaulted World Bank loans to naval patrols off Somalia's piracy-plagued coast and CIA-run detention facilities within the country.

$55 billion may be modest in comparison with the cost of the interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan -- which together are likely to end up costing the United States more than $1 trillion, according to the Congressional Budget Office -- but what's remarkable is how little we have to show for it. For all the treasure expended there, Somalia is no closer to stability than it has been at earlier points in its two-plus decades of chaos. The country is currently experiencing the worst famine the world has seen in two decades, with more than three-quarters of a million people at grave risk of starvation, and remains riven by civil conflict, piracy, and extremism.

The world's approach to Somalia has long been trapped in an unhappy middle: It has been insufficiently robust and well-designed to resolve the country's conflicts but far too heavy-handed and frequent to allow the country to resolve its own problems. An entire generation of Somalis now views the "state," whether it is the Transitional Federal Government or al-Shabab, as a largely predatory institution to be feared, not as a source of stability. Perhaps more than anything, the spending on Somalia demonstrates how the world -- and Washington in particular -- keeps groping for quick tactical fixes while failing to embrace the sensible diplomacy and the kinds of patient engagement that might help Somalia achieve peace.

Humanitarian and development aid: $13 billion

Somalia's tilt into chaos has been first and foremost an enormous human tragedy. According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and relief agency data, between 450,000 and 1.5 million Somalis have died due to the turmoil since 1991, more than 800,000 have fled as refugees, and another 1.5 million are internally displaced. One in four Somalis is either displaced or a refugee. Humanitarian aid has thus constituted a sizable chunk of spending on Somalia, and this figure is sure to grow sharply given the horrifying famine now under way; the United States alone has offered up $500 million to stem the tide of starvation in the Horn of Africa this year, and the United Nations estimates that a worldwide contribution of at least $2 billion will be needed to address the situation in the horn this year alone.

But although $13 billion is a lot of money, aid experts note that Somali refugees and internally displaced persons receive far less aid per capita than their counterparts elsewhere in the world. The average annual cost of assisting a single refugee from Somalia is just over $300, and the average Somali internally displaced probably receives half that amount in aid, according to estimates prepared by Mercy Corps International for our report. The amount of aid reaching those displaced within southern Somalia remains strikingly low, in part because insecurity, al-Shabab obstructionism, and U.S. terrorism restrictions have made access to these populations incredibly difficult.

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia.jpg
Peacekeeping, military responses, military aid, counterterrorism, and diplomacy: $7.3 billion

The international community has tried just about every trick in the book to contain and mitigate Somalia's instability, ranging from peacekeeping to military aid, counterterrorism efforts, and even Predator drone attacks. The initial U.S.-led international military intervention in Somalia in December 1992 began as an effort to protect food aid shipments from looters, only to quickly morph into an ill-conceived effort to oust the powerful warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. After the "Black Hawk Down" incident in 1993 that brought a sudden and tragic end to the last U.S.-led intervention, the United States has largely exerted force through proxies, including Ethiopia, Uganda, and Burundi. African Union peacekeepers have made some progress in recent months as al-Shabab has retreated from Mogadishu. But it's clear that Somalia's Transitional Federal Government would collapse without this outside support.

Spending on arms transfers and military approaches has dwarfed the resources invested in diplomacy or institution-building. Indeed, our research indicated that only about $42 million was spent on extraordinary diplomacy -- i.e. not including embassy staffing and other normal costs -- related to Somalia, most of it on crisis monitoring and a series of poorly planned peace conferences. This is a shame because heavy diplomatic spadework is precisely what is needed to help Somalia's clans reconcile and establish a functioning central government. The Transitional Federal Government, which countries including the United States continue to strongly back, remains incredibly corrupt and broadly unrepresentative.

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia4.jpg
Piracy: $22 billion

The rise of Somali piracy is a fairly recent phenomenon, and an incredibly expensive one. Somali pirates attacked over 154 ships in the first half of 2011 alone, almost 50 percent more attacks than in all of 2008. The average ransom paid per released ship in 2010 was $5.4 million. But ransom costs are only part of the story, with insurance rates, rerouting, international naval deployments, and added security measures all adding to the bill.

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia5.jpg
International criminal investigations: $2 billion

Somalia's lawlessness has made it an attractive base of operations not only for terrorist organizations and arms traffickers but for a range of other illegal activities as well, including drug trafficking. Costs in these areas are particularly challenging to track with a high degree of accuracy, but drug interdiction efforts, illicit financial flows, and sprawling law enforcement investigations into everything from smuggling to terrorism have added another $2 billion to spending over the last two decades.

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia6.jpg
Remittances: $11.2 billion

Somalia, like much of the developing world, is incredibly dependent on remittances, money earned by Somalis living and working abroad and sent to relatives in the country. As one aid agency has observed, remittances in Somalia "often make the difference between whether a family survives or not." Even counting only the portion of remittances that have likely gone toward lifesaving aid for Somali families and friends, the total still comes to $11.2 billion.

This incredible level of support from expatriate Somalis does much to explain the country's resiliency despite repeated calamities and long periods of relative neglect by the international community; indeed, for all the money the world has poured into Somalia, the World Bank argues that "the major inflow of 'aid' has come from Somalis themselves."

Of course its a failure DUHH. The only thing that foreign help leads to is dependency and destitution. You give a man a fish or teach him how to fish, that saying goes.

The only thing aid to Somalia (outside humanitarian aid) does is fill the bellies of warlords and gives UN bureaucrats in Nairobi a justification for their jobs.

Of course its a failure DUHH. The only thing that foreign help leads to is dependency and destitution. You give a man a fish or teach him how to fish, that saying goes.

The only thing aid to Somalia (outside humanitarian aid) does is fill the bellies of warlords and gives UN bureaucrats in Nairobi a justification for their jobs.

+100000 ....Their intention is clear, they want to keep Somalia & Africa in the closet.

The Price of Failure

How much has the collapse of Somalia cost the world? $55 billion -- and here's where it went.

BY JOHN NORRIS, BRONWYN BRUTON | OCTOBER 5, 2011

http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia1.jpg



http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia.jpg
Peacekeeping, military responses, military aid, counterterrorism, and diplomacy: $7.3 billion


http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia4.jpg
Piracy: $22 billion



http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia5.jpg
International criminal investigations: $2 billion



http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia6.jpg
Remittances: $11.2 billion

Source?????

These guys (http://foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/111005_somalia6.jpg) are definitely not Somali :laugh:

Its funny how they account for the cost of patrolling 'piracy' but not for the cost of illegal fishing and toxic waste dumping in the Somalia coast SMH.

The true cost is how many lives have been lost. Not just killed obviously, but also those who have to live through wars and famine. 55 billion is nothing compared to that.

God damn what the fuck happened? :cripes:

Most of the brothers were from Burundi, huge loss for the nation today.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/2011102141422988953.html

http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Images/2011/10/21/2011102142536970360_20.jpg

Somalia's al-Shabab fighters have put on display the dead bodies of more than 70 African Union peacekeepers they say they killed in the country's capital, Mogadishu.

The troops, reportedly Burundian soldiers, were killed on Thursday following a battle with al-Shabab, according to Abu Omar, a commander of the anti-government Islamist group.

"We can confirm that more than 150 Burundian soldiers were killed in the battle. We can confirm to you that 76 of the bodies are currently in our custody and the battle lasted for about six hours," he told Al Jazeera.

Displaying the bodies in the dust to reporters, Sheikh Ali Mohamud Rage, an al-Shabab spokesman, said: "We have killed more than 70 of the enemy soldiers today ... We have inflicted heavy losses on them and you can see their dead bodies."

The bodies were put on display in the al-Shabab-controlled El-Maan area, 18km from Mogadishu.

Witnesses say the bodies were not Somalis and most were dressed in military uniforms.

"I have seen the largest number of soldiers killed in a battle, I have counted 63 Burundian soldiers, all of them dead, the Shabab brought them on trucks to Alamada," Hasan Yunus, a witness, said.

"Some of the dead bodies were dragged along by angry residents."

Photographs showed long lines of at least 20 bodies dressed in military uniform laid out in the sand, surrounded by a large crowd with their faces covered.

'Fell into an ambush'

Al-Shabab's Omar told Al Jazeera that the battle started when "the Burundian crusaders supported by some of the militia from the regime attacked an area in Dayniile which also has a large population of innocent civilians".

"First the Burundian troops began by indiscriminately shelling the area with mortars and rockets whereby dozens of innocent civilians lost their lives as a result and hundreds more were injured. Shortly after the shelling had stopped, the Burundian troops began to move towards the district of Dayniile.

"We were informed of their preparations and movements by our reconnaissance teams, so the mujahideen [al-Shabab] was laying in wait for them. And when they advanced, along with their tanks and armoured personnel carriers, they fell into an ambush and that's where the battle began," he added.

Heavy fighting was reported in the northwest Dayniile district throughout Thursday, but Somali government officials had earlier said they were moving alongside AU troops "towards the final strongholds of the terrorist militants".

Battles began before dawn in Mogadishu as AU-backed Somali forces advanced on holdout al-Shabab positions, officials and witnesses said.

African Union Mission for Somalia (AMISOM) troops and government forces have been pushing into remaining al-Shabab areas in Mogadishu, after the bulk of the fighters abandoned their fixed positions in August.

Burundian troops with the 9,000 strong AMISOM force control the sector closest to the fighting and are believed to have led the assault. Ugandan soldiers make up the bulk of the AU force and control other sections of Mogadishu.

Despite their pullout from much from the capital, al-Shabab has not wavered from its aim to topple the government. The fighters still control large swathes of southern and central Somalia, and remain a serious security threat.

Meanwhile, al-Shabab fighters in southern Somalia are also facing assaults from Kenyan troops and tanks backed by air strikes since Kenya declared war on the group and confirmed it had moved its forces into Somalia on Sunday.

They made a choice when they went in to Somalia..now they have to live with the consequence.

This is awful. :ohno:

:shocked:

This is awful. I have a question for you? Are this chabab animals or human? It is hard to believe that people can kill so much people. Don't they have concience?


You have a choice of killing pple in the hope that 72+1 virgins awaits you when you die and supposedly go to heaven.

And what about the bodies of dead alshabaab? this guys are doing this to evoke fear to the Kenyan offence

How come south africa and nigeria military haven't joined to combate these fools?

kenyan, burundi and ugandan military are too small for these fools

This is awful. I have a question for you? Are this chabab animals or human? It is hard to believe that people can kill so much people. Don't they have concience? If hates becomes the most important thing in peoples live, than they become like enimals.

These are Soldiers, they know what their getting into. They came seeking riches but only got death....such is life.

lets see how the Kenyans go.

How come south africa and nigeria military haven't joined to combate these fools?

kenyan, burundi and ugandan military are too small for these fools

Because Nigeria is yet to deal with its own Boko Haram

Any life lost is a shame but they chose to come to Somalia.

How come south africa and nigeria military haven't joined to combate these fools?

kenyan, burundi and ugandan military are too small for these fools

18 of America's most elite soldiers got smoked in one day by much more amateur and disorganized militias in 1993, do you think South Africa and Nigeria will make a difference in Mogadishu?

SA and Nigeria have no experience in modern combat; Uganda and Burundi are really the best for the job, even better than Americans I'd say.

These are Soldiers, they know what their getting into. They came seeking riches but only got death....such is life.

lets see how the Kenyans go.

thank you alshabaab with your archaic thinking

...

Now I almost believe that this forum is an MI6 or CIA forum and not an African one,
people simply post western propaganda as credible source of information, there are a lot of posts against certain African countries not liked by the west, there is a lot of pro-western propaganda etc.

In other African forums people are far ahead than many here. :ohno:





International criminal investigations: $2 billion

18 of America's most elite soldiers got smoked in one day by much more amateur and disorganized militias in 1993, do you think South Africa and Nigeria will make a difference in Mogadishu?

SA and Nigeria have no experience in modern combat; Uganda and Burundi are really the best for the job, even better than Americans I'd say.

wow!

But SA in particular have more advance weaponary to finish these fools, why not contact the u.s on their drones and use it to wipe these souless clowns.

wow!

But SA in particular have more advance weaponary to finish these fools, why not contact the u.s on their drones and use it to wipe these souless clowns.

Drones fall over Somalia every day, they're largely a joke. In Afghanistan they've proven to be more use to the Taliban than to the US. No use.

Ugandan and Burundian troops in Somalia use AU weapons, SA troops would use the same weapons. Even with more advanced weapons systems it wouldn't mean anything.

20,000 ragtag Taliban are raping NATO and Pakistan in front of the world, clearly weapons systems don't change the game as much as tactics do. If anything, the kidnappings and beheadings of White South African troops would be a trophy for Al-Shabaab, for all they care they can parade these White SA troops as Americans to their foreign allies.

wow!

But SA in particular have more advance weaponary to finish these fools, why not contact the u.s on their drones and use it to wipe these souless clowns.

So?
US has advanced weaponary. Didn't do them much good

The Israelis should nuke them to oblivion. Displaying dead bodies is an act of cowardice.

"Ask and you shall receive". bible.

The Israelis should nuke them to oblivion. Displaying dead bodies is an act of cowardice.

:rofl:

Wtf does Israel have to do with Somalia? Talk about delusional :|

But there are times when people are killed in hundreds in Somalia and nobody shows their picture here!

^^ Absolutely.

They made a choice when they went in to Somalia..now they have to live with the consequence.

Exactly.

Drones fall over Somalia every day, they're largely a joke. In Afghanistan they've proven to be more use to the Taliban than to the US. No use.

Ugandan and Burundian troops in Somalia use AU weapons, SA troops would use the same weapons. Even with more advanced weapons systems it wouldn't mean anything.

20,000 ragtag Taliban are raping NATO and Pakistan in front of the world, clearly weapons systems don't change the game as much as tactics do. If anything, the kidnappings and beheadings of White South African troops would be a trophy for Al-Shabaab, for all they care they can parade these White SA troops as Americans to their foreign allies.

You said burundi and uganda is the way to go but they just smoked 70+ burundian armies.

The african union is a joke :lol: they need to bring in more international coalitions

they need to bring in more international coalitions

Pick up a history book.
Somalia's history is littered with "international" forces :|

:shocked::shocked::shocked:

Kenya is Officially at war now, I guess....... :popcorn:

You said burundi and uganda is the way to go but they just smoked 70+ burundian armies.

The african union is a joke :lol: they need to bring in more international coalitions

How old are you?

Kenya is doin good

Pick up a history book.
Somalia's history is littered with "international" forces :|


I am sorry i haven't been much informed about this group's history my bad!

:shocked::shocked::shocked:

Kenya is Officially at war now, I guess....... :popcorn:



you always with your popcorn :lol:

Kenya is doin good

Not yet. it hasn't even been a month.

you always with your popcorn :lol:

loooooooooool :lol::popcorn:

But seriously, that picture was Horrible...... :ohno:

Not yet. it hasn't even been a month.

At least they have started off well

loooooooooool :lol::popcorn:

But seriously, that picture was Horrible...... :ohno:



have you seen the other pictures ?

Obama needs to send some u.s troops to help fight these idiots

How come cnn doesn't cover this issue like they do with other issues like this in the middle east?

have you seen the other pictures ?

Errrrmmmm.,,,,..........no I havent, and I dont want to :lol:
BTW: Where are you from??

How come cnn doesn't cover this issue like they do with other issues like this in the middle east?

the middle east is synonymous with oil, and of course the american baby, israel

no one cares about somalia, for them its just africans killing africans

Obama needs to send some u.s troops to help fight these idiots

You seem to have a problem dude. we cant just depend on the so called economic powers to solve our probs. which country has ever had its problems solved by the US since 1947 anyway?

the middle east is synonymous with oil, and of course the american baby, israel

no one cares about somalia, for them its just africans killing africans
:ohno::ohno::ohno:

Obama needs to send some u.s troops to help fight these idiots

its because America and Ethiopia that Somalia is in this mess in the frist place :ohno:
when they couldn't do anything they packed their stuff and went home , and left this huge mess behind . Libya is in the same mess as Somalia in 1991 , weapons everywhere super intelligent people all over the place that can use them , the only difference is that they got oil and the west want it badly , they might give a damn this time .

http://www.aminarts.com/KENYA%20copy.jpg

Kenya is left wondering what it getting itself into. :lol:

You seem to have a problem dude. we cant just depend on the so called economic powers to solve our probs. which country has ever had its problems solved by the US since 1947 anyway?
I said assistant, look at what NATO did for the libyan rebels in bringing down gadaffi, without the help of the west gadaffi would have defeated the rebels. Look at syria without the help of the west, they couldn't do nothing even with its leader killings of a lil kid.

How long has this been dragging on now? Now kenya is just sending troops in? To battle 14k + militants, you will need all the help you can get.

Human life isn't valued in Africa :ohno::ohno:

But there are times when people are killed in hundreds in Somalia and nobody shows their picture here!

+ 1000

its because America and Ethiopia that Somalia is in this mess in the frist place :ohno:
when they couldn't do anything they packed their stuff and went home , and left this huge mess behind . Libya is in the same mess as Somalia in 1991 , weapons everywhere super intelligent people all over the place that can use them , the only difference is that they got oil and the west want it badly , they might give a damn this time .

What a nonsense. Somalia is since independence in a civil war. Different tribes, political parties, clans etc where fighting eachother.
1 million Somalian people have died because of all those civil wars..The only one who is too blame for the chaos in Somalia are the Somalian people.

18 of America's most elite soldiers got smoked in one day by much more amateur and disorganized militias in 1993, do you think South Africa and Nigeria will make a difference in Mogadishu?

SA and Nigeria have no experience in modern combat; Uganda and Burundi are really the best for the job, even better than Americans I'd say.

Ha.. those same 18 soldiers held out an entire city for almost the entire day. You think Somalia militias are tough with their hide and seek tactics? faced against South African and Nigerian military strength they stand no chance.

Drones fall over Somalia every day, they're largely a joke. In Afghanistan they've proven to be more use to the Taliban than to the US. No use.

Ugandan and Burundian troops in Somalia use AU weapons, SA troops would use the same weapons. Even with more advanced weapons systems it wouldn't mean anything.

20,000 ragtag Taliban are raping NATO and Pakistan in front of the world, clearly weapons systems don't change the game as much as tactics do. If anything, the kidnappings and beheadings of White South African troops would be a trophy for Al-Shabaab, for all they care they can parade these White SA troops as Americans to their foreign allies.

Againt another delibrate ignorant rant.. i know you are smarter than these. Drones has over the last couple of years been the terrorists worst night mare. How many high profile terrorist agents have been killed by drones? countless. Is the Taliban still in control of %20 of A-Stan like they used to? hardly. Are they still in power? no. Aside from launching suicide attacks on high profile Afghan government officials which only goes to highlight their desperation the Taliban is finnished.

the au is denying that those are its troops

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15401898

Obama needs to send some u.s troops to help fight these idiots

Why America? how about China sending its troops to help fight these idiots?

What a nonsense. Somalia is since independence in a civil war. Different tribes, political parties, clans etc where fighting eachother.
1 million Somalian people have died because of all those civil wars..The only one who is too blame for the chaos in Somalia are the Somalian people.

As a matter of fact, Somalia's civil war started around 1991 actually, not 1960 which is when their independence was; not that that makes any difference as the situation is still bad.

The conflict has moved beyond tribes/clans a long time ago and it has been a full scale international war with many international actors such as the U.N, E.U, U.S, Ethiopia, Kenya, Eritrea, Uganda, Burundi and others involved. This is hardly a civil war anymore; it may have started as such but it ceased to be a civil war long ago.

If one looks at Somalia as a country it is only the southern part that is still in conflict as the northern half of the country is peaceful. The southern half of the country is where the vast majority of foreign interference, troops and involvement has been and this has prolonged the conflict in that region. Foreign interference has served to maintain the status quo.

To give you an example in 2006 a moderate grass-roots movement known as the ICU took control of the sothern half of the country. This group had the wide support of the Somali people and they managed to return law and order. Then the U.S and its lackey Ethiopia came in and said that they did not want an 'islamist', albeit very moderate though they be, group ruling Somalia - a 100% muslim country. This again destabilised the entire southern region; it led to the death of thousands of innocent civilians; Ethiopia lost thousands of troops and it ended up withdrawing; the former leader of the ICU, Sheikh shariif, became the President of the country - bizarrely with the full backing of the U.S.

At every step of what is ironically called a civil war, international actors have had a hand and direct involvement.

the au is denying that those are its troops

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15401898

I wish that was the case.

Actual reports from people I know in Mogadishu say that the AU losses top well over 100 men dead. Any eye witness reports from the ground say that the number is between 50 and 200. The situation is really going bad. Its Burundian troops paying the price; I think better-trained Ugandan troops should take over.

Obviously AMISOM is trying to save some face. Those bodies in the pictures are certainly not Somali that is for sure :lol:

LMAO @ 10 soldiers hahaha :lol:

Spoke to my Uncle earlier who is in Mogadishu, he also said that the AU lose was higher.

http://radiomuqdisho.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/DSC08952.jpg

Basically what happened is that these troops were patrolling/travelling [as in the picture above ^ in the morning] without [armoured] personell carriers around Dayniile part of Mogadishu they came face to face with Al-shabab, they panicked and they were slaughtered [warning graphic image]:

http://radioalfurqaan.com/imeges/Halaagga%20Burundi/baqti%20burundi%20075.JPG

Now I almost believe that this forum is an MI6 or CIA forum and not an African one,
people simply post western propaganda as credible source of information, there are a lot of posts against certain African countries not liked by the west, there is a lot of pro-western propaganda etc.

In other African forums people are far ahead than many here. :ohno:

My god you are brilliant!

I am compelled to confess; I am CIA agent assigned to a top secret cyber operation. Codename: Operation Rodenticide.

My duty is to exterminate petulant parasitic pests from the interwebs. Pray, prey.

I am not clicking that link o.O

Video has been released:


bGo5XgMtjV8

I feel bad for these guys having to fight for their governments who probably didn't give them a sufficient reason for risking their lives in a foreign country.

"Ask and you shall receive". bible.

Unasema nini bwana mdogo?:)

http://radiomuqdisho.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/DSC08952.jpg

Basically what happened is that these troops were patrolling/travelling [as in the picture above ^ in the morning] without [armoured] personell carriers around Dayniile part of Mogadishu they came face to face with Al-shabab, they panicked and they were slaughtered [warning graphic image]:

http://radioalfurqaan.com/imeges/Halaagga%20Burundi/baqti%20burundi%20075.JPG
This is novice if you are patrolling why do you panic when encountering your foe? i hope they were not caught by the river side taking a bath or something...

Video has been released:


bGo5XgMtjV8

Why is the Al-Shabaab leader Ali Dhere just walking freely in that crowd without any bodyguards? Looks like he has local support.

I said assistant, look at what NATO did for the libyan rebels in bringing down gadaffi, without the help of the west gadaffi would have defeated the rebels. Look at syria without the help of the west, they couldn't do nothing even with its leader killings of a lil kid.

How long has this been dragging on now? Now kenya is just sending troops in? To battle 14k + militants, you will need all the help you can get.

Libya=open desert and built up cities, Somalia has small villages/towns and mostly covered with bushes. It is not easy to fight a guerilla warfare in the African jungle. Besides Alshaabab are not your typical Ghaddafi like army they don't care about controlling infrastructure they simply move around. Their best tactic is to hit and run:ohno:

burundi shoukd take its troops out of somalia because it is always them who get slaughtered in big numbers.

is it safe to assume that this chaps inferiorty complex has already developed into a mental illness?


ARE YOU HEARING VOICES YET, TEWODROS?

Its funny how they account for the cost of patrolling 'piracy' but not for the cost of illegal fishing and toxic waste dumping in the Somalia coast SMH.

Absol-fucking-lutely!

When it was Somalis getting fucked over, nobody gave a shit. Pirates start touching their ships and suddenly it's all about the cost of "piracy" ignoring the causes.

Tedowros :laugh: I wish I was on the CIA dole... And besides the ending post was not bad, about remittances and etc.

There is really no honor with Al-Shabaab, if your enemy dies, and you're in possession of the body, the responsibility according to Islam lies on you to provide a dignified burial. Government soldiers atleast give them that.

What a nonsense. Somalia is since independence in a civil war. Different tribes, political parties, clans etc where fighting eachother.

Really?, how come:

Somalia was known as one Africa's most democratic countries (http://i56.************/2illhev.jpg), with Presidents and Prime-ministers stepping down and taking office several times:
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/23443_108062299224717_108052855892328_123176_3054508_n.jpg
President Aden Abdulle Osman & Prime-Minister Abdullahi Issa

How did it succesfully maintain one of the oldest and finest capitals in Africa? Hosting prestigious film-festivals, and political events?:

http://www.deutsche-schule-mogadishu-1985-1990.de/imageI1F.JPG

http://www.deutsche-schule-mogadishu-1985-1990.de/imageLV4.JPG
Pre-war Mogadishu, Somalia

How did Somalia have one of the largest mechanised armies in Africa,that were united enough to launch Africa's largest conventional wars at the time?
http://wiki-images.enotes.com/4/47/Somali_Military.JPG

How did the Somali government successfully launch one of the biggest mass-literacy campaigns in history?

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/37804_119794328068939_119791304735908_103176_2417669_n.jpg

For the Government employees and the urban population, it took 6 months each to read and write . For the rural population , there was almost a year of intensive teaching participated by all school children from intermediate to secondary and the majority of the state’s civil servants as teachers and inspectors. These campaigns culminated with 75% literacy rate of the population and Somalia winning the UNESCO medal for literacy in 1975. - Source (http://www.iprt.org/role_of_somali_language_in_educa.htm)

How come Somalia was hailed as one of the few Muslim countries making significant strides in male & female equality, with women taking up government positions, entering the army and airforce, and having the same marital rights as their husbands etc?:

http://www.afmaal.com/media/specials/fotokunst.as.backup/EastAfrica_files/Representatives.jpg

In 1975, the most prominent government reforms regarding family law in a Muslim country were set in motion in the Somali Democratic Republic, which set women and men, including husbands and wives, on complete equal footing.[89] The 1975 Somali Family Law, gave men and women equal division of property between the husband and wife upon divorce and the exclusive right to control by each spouse over his or her personal property. Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#Clan_and_family_structure)

This can't be done in a country at civil-war, in-fact this is the sole reason why Somalia of today is a shadow of yesterday's Somalia. The civil-war started in 1988, when the Dictator began bombing its own people with foreign mercenaries.

1 million Somalian people have died because of all those civil wars..The only one who is too blame for the chaos in Somalia are the Somalian people.

Oh yes, Somalis have a big role in their own situation, however you must be blind if you think that the numerous foreign interventions didn't aggravate an already tense situation. Ask yourself why regions such as Somaliland and Puntland that never saw the same intensity in foreign interventions have been stable since the 1990s? While the South has never had the space to allow a local popular movement from consolidating peace because of interventions, foreign support for warlords, or War on Terror paranoia.

Rip :(

I really do look forward to Constantine MMX's posts. Always a pleasure to read :yes:

Unasema nini bwana mdogo?:)

Ule ana omba vita. ata pata ile ali omba.

18 of America's most elite soldiers got smoked in one day by much more amateur and disorganized militias in 1993, do you think South Africa and Nigeria will make a difference in Mogadishu?

SA and Nigeria have no experience in modern combat; Uganda and Burundi are really the best for the job, even better than Americans I'd say.

You forget that to take 18 soldiers over 1,000 Somalis were killed. Not exactly impressive. :nuts:

U.S lost more troops in the first minute of the Iwo Jima invasion.

Lailax, mahadsanid. :cheers:

You forget that to take 18 soldiers over 1,000 Somalis were killed. Not exactly impressive. :nuts:

U.S lost more troops in the first minute of the Iwo Jima invasion.

Illogical. If one Taliban soldier in disguise went to an American Mall and started spraying around with an AK, and killed a hundred people, would it really count as:

1 Taliban soldier vs 100 Americans? The majority of that figure that were killed were non-combatants in a densily populated neighbourhood.

Lailax, mahadsanid. :cheers:



Illogical. If one Taliban soldier in disguise went to an American Mall and started spraying around with an AK, and killed a hundred people, would it really count as:

1 Taliban soldier vs 100 Americans? The majority of that figure that were killed were non-combatants in a densily populated neighbourhood.

Even if 60% of those killed were civilians the ratio is still highly skewed. Al-Shabaab are not the Viet Kong or even the Taliban, they are a rag tag group fighting rag tag armies that have very little support, training and morale fighting a war that clearly isn't for them.

Even if 60% of those killed were civilians the ratio is still highly skewed.

If you take the American estimate as "fact" maybe, but there are lower estimates. It still doesn't change my earlier point.

Al-Shabaab are not the Viet Kong or even the Taliban, they are a rag tag group fighting rag tag armies that have very little support, training and morale fighting a war that clearly isn't for them.

Why are you telling me this? :) Would the hellspawn that is Al-Shabaab exist if Somalia's standing army didn't disintergrate or was genuinely rebuild? They would be squashed in a nano-second, and would have no trump-card for potential support by calling the Somali soldiers "invaders".

If you take the American estimate as "fact" maybe, but there are lower estimates. It still doesn't change my earlier point.

The lowest estimate I've run into (non American) is 315 militia killed. That's from the militias themselves. That's still a nearly 20 to 1 ratio and probably taking into account the number is probably higher.

The Mission was a failure, universally seen so. Aideed continued to rule unabated for years to come.(until killed by one of his own) I guess the Nazi ratio to Russians "killed" impresses you as well?

18 of America's most elite soldiers got smoked in one day by much more amateur and disorganized militias in 1993, do you think South Africa and Nigeria will make a difference in Mogadishu?

SA and Nigeria have no experience in modern combat; Uganda and Burundi are really the best for the job, even better than Americans I'd say.

where does this constantly reiterated ignorant notion come from?

South Africa IS modern combat lol, and Nigeria has more combat experience then almost all of africa. I can't think of a 4 year span where Nigeria wasn't engaged in direct combat..

Kenya Invades Somalia. Does It Get Any Dumber?

http://timeglobalspin.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/kenya_somalia.jpg?w=450&h=297
Posted by Alex Perry Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 6:12 am 141 Kenyan military board a truck headed to the Somali border, October 18, 2011. (Photo: AP)

If the history of war teaches us anything, it's that invading a foreign country is dicey. Storming across too many borders was the undoing of many of the world's great conquerors, from Alexander the Great to Napoleon to the Nazis. The last few decades of US foreign policy - Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq - only underline how tricky invasions are, even for the most powerful. The last 20 years have also seen Somalia emerge with a particularly consistent record of chewing up anyone who arrives carrying a gun, including the U.N. and U.S. special operations troops (1992-3), Ethiopians (2006-9) and Ugandans and Burundians from an African Union peacekeeping force (2008-today).

So what does Kenya think it's doing? On Sunday, a force estimated variously at a few hundred to 2,000 Kenyan soldiers crossed the border into Somalia into pursuit of militants from the Somali Islamist group, al-Shabab. The invasion came after a rash of armed incursions into Kenya from Somalia. On Sept. 11, Somali gunmen killed British tourist David Tebbutt, 58, and abducted his wife Judith, 56, from a resort on the northern Kenyan coast. In a second attack on a nearby beach hotel on Oct. 1, another group of Somali gunmen kidnapped a 66-year-old disabled French tourist, Marie Dedieu, who was confirmed dead on Wednesday. And then on Oct. 13, a third group of kidnappers took two Spanish aid workers from Dadaab, a camp in northern Kenyan -- the biggest refugee settlement in the world, set up 20 years ago for those fleeing fighting and famine in Somalia.
Starting a war is not an obvious way to bolster a country's reputation for safety and security. Starting a war with an al-Qaeda affiliate who have previously carried out attacks abroad (in Kampala in July 2010 two al-Shabab suicide bombers killed 76 people) and who have been itching for an excuse to do the same to you carries even more obvious risks. But starting a war in which your invading forces are outnumbered from the beginning (al-Shabab has around 2,500 men at arms), and doing that just as the rainy season starts, is bat crazy.

Sure enough, by Wednesday the Kenyans and their Somali allies were stuck in torrential rains and thick mud 20 miles short of their first objective of the al-Shabab-ruled town Afmadow. Even if the occupiers can extract themselves from the literal quagmire, analysts unanimously agree they will find it all but impossible to avoid becoming militarily bogged down. Faced with al-Shabab's well-armed, experienced and more numerous guerrillas - fighters who two years ago saw off a far fiercer, better trained and bigger Ethiopian force - Kenya's soldiers seem headed for deadlock at best and, at worst, bloody defeat. What's worse, the Kenyan invasion seems likely to reunify al-Shabab just as it was in danger of splintering over disagreements about leadership and whether to accept aid to alleviate an ongoing famine in southern Somalia. It could even help restore al-Shabab's plummeting local support.

History may be littered with warnings about just this kind of action but still, rarely has disaster been so plainly foretold. As an al-Shabab spokesman, Ali Mohamud Rage, told the BBC, while vowing retaliatory attacks on Nairobi: "Kenya doesn't know war. We know war. We have fought against governments older and stronger than Kenya and we have defeated them."



Read more: http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/10/19/kenya-invades-somalia-does-it-get-any-dumber/#ixzz1bR74419u

INFO OBS. France planned to intervene in SomaliaPosted on 20-10-11 at 13:49 Last modified at 16:38 by Le Nouvel Observateur 39 reactions

Paris is preparing to help the Kenyan troops involved since Sunday in southern Somalia against the Islamist Shehab militia.

http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/file/2570338.jpg
Kenyan soldiers in Somalia (STRINGER / AFP)
REACT
Marie Dedieu, death too ? According to information obtained by "Le Nouvel Observateur" a source close to the deal, France is preparing to help the Kenyan troops involved since Sunday in southern Somalia against the Islamist Shehab militia. In addition, it provides financial support to Nairobi in the fight against terrorism. Information that the state headquarters of the army, contacted by "Le Nouvel Observateur" has wanted neither confirm nor deny. However, Gerard Longuet, Defence Minister, had said, Thursday, October 20, the French army would not lead to "retaliation" after the death of the French held hostage in Somalia, Marie Dedieu. Recall that another French hostage is still in the hands of Somali Islamists: it's Denis Allex (this is probably a pseudonym), an agent of the DGSE, removed since July 14, 2009.

France has a military base in Djibouti, near Somalia, with nearly 2,000 elite ground troops and aircraft and combat pre-positioned (including 7 mirages). On this basis, the French and Americans together leading Somali government forces who face the Shebab for 10 years. The operation of Kenyans was initiated while the government troops launched an offensive against the latest positions held also by the Islamist militias linked to Al Qaeda in Somalia's capital Mogadishu.

Alexis Toulon - with the foreign service of the Nouvel Observateur

:applause:

laisse aller Francias, this is what i am talking about the assistant from NATO!

I really do look forward to Constantine MMX's posts. Always a pleasure to read :yes:

+ 1 :cheers:

Popoye,

France has already been involved in the conflict. They have played a major role in training AMISOM forces and they have a small number of boots on the ground to hepl AMISOM with tactics and logistics. are they are to put boots on the ground ?

There are also British and German advisors on the ground supporting the AMISOM forces.

Drones fall over Somalia every day, they're largely a joke. In Afghanistan they've proven to be more use to the Taliban than to the US. No use.

Ugandan and Burundian troops in Somalia use AU weapons, SA troops would use the same weapons. Even with more advanced weapons systems it wouldn't mean anything.

20,000 ragtag Taliban are raping NATO and Pakistan in front of the world, clearly weapons systems don't change the game as much as tactics do. If anything, the kidnappings and beheadings of White South African troops would be a trophy for Al-Shabaab, for all they care they can parade these White SA troops as Americans to their foreign allies.

This post is 100.00% false. :lol:

Againt another delibrate ignorant rant.. i know you are smarter than these. Drones has over the last couple of years been the terrorists worst night mare. How many high profile terrorist agents have been killed by drones? countless. Is the Taliban still in control of %20 of A-Stan like they used to? hardly. Are they still in power? no. Aside from launching suicide attacks on high profile Afghan government officials which only goes to highlight their desperation the Taliban is finnished.

Thanks for saying what I was going to say.

If al shabaab knw how important the war in somalia is to burundi soldiers, how a soldier back in burundi earns 50 dollars amonth but when he goes to somalia he earns about 1000 dollars in allowances per month.
Do u think the burundi army is going to withdraw because bodies were dragged in the street?
Let me assure u any attempt by the burundi govt to withdraw will lead to a military coup.This is an army just out of a civil war where up to 500,000 people were killed and u think they will be intimidated by by a few deaths.Theses are burundians not Americans.

THE ONLY PROBLEM I SEE IS AL SHABAAB SPENDS TOO MUCH TIME FOLLOWING ARAB NEWS AND LACKS ANY KNOWLEDGE OF AFRICAN AFFAIRS BECAUSE IF THEY THINK THE POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD BURUNDI IS GOING TO LEAVE THE CASH COW CALLED SOMALIA BECAUSE OF DEAD SOLDIERS, I THINK THEY SHOULD TRY TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES ABOUT AFRICA BECAUSE THEY SPEND TOO MUCH TIME ON ARAB ISSUES .

MY MESSAGE TO AL SHABAAB IS SOMALIA IS NOT THE ONLY COUNTRY WITH ISSUES OTHERS TO HAVE AND THEY HOPE TO SOLVE THEIR ISSUES BY BEING IN SOMALIA.

I am fully aware of Burundi's situation and perhaps one of the reasons aside from money why it is sending its militias, and lets be honest they are militias, to Somalia, is that the Burundian government would rather they fight there than create trouble within the Burundi.

The Mission was a failure, universally seen so. Aideed continued to rule unabated for years to come.(until killed by one of his own) I guess the Nazi ratio to Russians "killed" impresses you as well?

LOL That was no where near as skewed. If you count all Soviets (Civilians and Soldiers) it's around 5 to 1. Including just soldiers it's about 2 or 3 to 1. Hardly comparable. :lol: And that was through large scale conventional war not urban guerilla tactics.

Popoye,

France has already been involved in the conflict. They have played a major role in training AMISOM forces and they have a small number of boots on the ground to hepl AMISOM with tactics and logistics. are they are to put boots on the ground ?

There are also British and German advisors on the ground supporting the AMISOM forces.


If it's airstrike like they did in libya or sending boots down any sort of involvement is key to defeating al shabaab.

where does this constantly reiterated ignorant notion come from?

South Africa IS modern combat lol, and Nigeria has more combat experience then almost all of africa. I can't think of a 4 year span where Nigeria wasn't engaged in direct combat..

Safari (Peacekeeping) is not combat.

Can you not be ignorant in 1 thread?

Both Nigeria and South Africa engaged in direct combat in Angola
Nigeria has engaged in direct combat in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Niger Delta, Biafra (which was a REAL technological, logistical, political, diplomatic, industrial modern civil war as opposed to all these congo civil wars where people just eat each other, raping women, and use pygmys feet as lucky charms against a foe 100x more formidable then somalians in bathtubs), guiena, burma, indonesia, angola, CONGO (twice), Chad, and now Boko Haram.

These countries and Egypt are probably the only countries in africa with real modern combat experience and the capacity to actually wage a war against another country.


Nigeria waged a continuous 4 year war against this

http://www.terroristplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/mend1.jpg
http://www.arabianoilandgas.com/pictures/gallery/News/MEND_online.jpg
http://www.africa-times-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MEND.jpg
on 4 terrains (urban, air, amphibious, jungle)


which, believe it or not, is 10X better trained, better funded, most sophisticated, better equipt, and flat out more capable then this


http://greatparanoiac.files.wordpress.com/2006/07/somali-warlords.jpg


and we're not even taking it to Biafra, which was a foe that developed it's own indigenous guided missle systems, radar, and air command in a civil war that saw more casualties then Mogadishu has people.


the only reason anyone rates these somali gangs (and that's what they are) is because nobody has had enough time to put a effort into annihilating them because the reward is abysmal compared to the cost, but if you for 8 seconds think South Africa, which one of the world's most advanced militaries and Nigeria with one of the continents only modern and easily one of the world's most experienced militaries, can't do in somalia what they've done tens of times all over the continent they're you're self dilluded. it wasn't even 5 years ago that Ethiopia trashed these assholes, simply because they wanted to, niether SA or Nigeria, which have both seen world war, have anything to gain from doing the same.

:cripes:

#SAPP hahaha

There is really no honor with Al-Shabaab, if your enemy dies, and you're in possession of the body, the responsibility according to Islam lies on you to provide a dignified burial. Government soldiers atleast give them that.



Really?, how come:

Somalia was known as one Africa's most democratic countries (http://i56.************/2illhev.jpg), with Presidents and Prime-ministers stepping down and taking office several times:


How did it succesfully maintain one of the oldest and finest capitals in Africa? Hosting prestigious film-festivals, and political events?:



How did Somalia have one of the largest mechanised armies in Africa,that were united enough to launch Africa's largest conventional wars at the time?


How did the Somali government successfully launch one of the biggest mass-literacy campaigns in history?



How come Somalia was hailed as one of the few Muslim countries making significant strides in male & female equality, with women taking up government positions, entering the army and airforce, and having the same marital rights as their husbands etc?:



This can't be done in a country at civil-war, in-fact this is the sole reason why Somalia of today is a shadow of yesterday's Somalia. The civil-war started in 1988, when the Dictator began bombing its own people with foreign mercenaries.



Oh yes, Somalis have a big role in their own situation, however you must be blind if you think that the numerous foreign interventions didn't aggravate an already tense situation. Ask yourself why regions such as Somaliland and Puntland that never saw the same intensity in foreign interventions have been stable since the 1990s? While the South has never had the space to allow a local popular movement from consolidating peace because of interventions, foreign support for warlords, or War on Terror paranoia.

This is probably the best post ever in oasis seriously.

I don't think intervention in a civil war is a bad thing, but the way intervention has occurred has been a mixed bag.

All wars are part battle part propaganda and Al-Shabbaab has played propaganda card much better than the rest from what it looks like, you can't "help" if you can't get locals to cooperate with you.

At this point maybe just withdrawing for the time being and regroup and securing the boarders allowing refugees to leave may be best. Humanitarian aid inside the country may take an even bigger hit, but NGOs can't stay with out AU cover :dunno:

I just hope this drought helps people finally realize that Al Shabbab is not protecting them or their interests, it was a sham from day one.

Drones fall over Somalia every day, they're largely a joke. In Afghanistan they've proven to be more use to the Taliban than to the US. No use.

Ugandan and Burundian troops in Somalia use AU weapons, SA troops would use the same weapons. Even with more advanced weapons systems it wouldn't mean anything.

20,000 ragtag Taliban are raping NATO and Pakistan in front of the world, clearly weapons systems don't change the game as much as tactics do. If anything, the kidnappings and beheadings of White South African troops would be a trophy for Al-Shabaab, for all they care they can parade these White SA troops as Americans to their foreign allies.

This post is 100.00% false. :lol:

Thanks for saying what I was going to say.
Indeed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/bin-laden-document-trove-reveals-strain-on-al-qaeda/2011/07/01/AGdj0GuH_story.html
Over the past year, the al-Qaeda leader fielded e-mails from followers lamenting the toll being taken by CIA drone “explosions” as well as the network’s financial plight, according to U.S. officials who have completed an exhaustive review of the trove of bin Laden files collected at his compound after the May 2 U.S. raid that killed him.........
One of bin Laden’s principal correspondents was Atiyah abd al-Rahman, who served as No. 3 in al-Qaeda before bin Laden’s death. A 2010 message from Rahman expressed frustration with the CIA drone campaign, a source of particular concern because many of his predecessors in the third-ranking slot had been killed in strikes by the unmanned aircraft.
“He was saying in the letter that their guys were getting killed faster than they could be replaced,” the U.S. counter terrorism official said........
Other messages sounded a similar theme. At least two came from the head of al-Qaeda’s security unit, a group that had been established to protect against penetrations by informants who might provide targeting tips to the CIA. The group is thought to be behind executions of dozens of suspected informants. In some cases, corpses were found with notes attached declaring that the deceased was an American spy............

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7973598/Quarter-of-senior-Taliban-killed-by-SAS-in-kill-or-capture-targeting.html
Quarter of senior Taliban killed by SAS in 'kill or capture' targeting

The Taliban in Helmand are being killed by the SAS on an "industrial scale" with a quarter of senior commanders killed since spring, leading to a dramatic drop in British casualties.
01 Sep 2010

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/afghanistan-pakistan/kill-capture/transcript/
Frontline : Kill Capture
......NARRATOR: On May 2nd, 2011, U.S. special operations forces killed the world’s most wanted man in a raid on a house in Pakistan. The operation gave the world a glimpse into a vast and secret campaign being waged by the United States.

It’s known as the kill/capture program. It’s a campaign that the military says has killed or captured more than 12,000 militants in the last year. Using cutting-edge technology, elite teams are hunting down Taliban and al Qaeda leaders one by one and taking them out.

Lt. Col. JOHN NAGL (Ret.), Pentagon Adviser: We’re getting so good at various electronic means of identifying, tracking, locating members of the insurgency that we’re able to employ this extraordinary machine, an almost industrial-scale counter terrorism killing machine that has been able to pick out and take off the battlefield not just the top level al Qaeda-level insurgents, but also increasingly is being used to target mid-level insurgents......



........The Taliban aren't "raping Pakistan" up the asse. Pakistan is helping the Afghan Taliban (different then the Paki Taliban) screw Afghanistan up the wazoo because of their "strategic depth" policy hoping to interject their own sycophants lackeys again to replace any pro-Indian factions. If Pakistan actually attempted to do sweeps and regain control over their own territories where the Taliban/Haqqanis were then the fight in Afghanistan would be much easier as NATO would be able to confront fleeing Talibs within Afghanistan. This is in fact a war between the US and Pakistan over the fate of Afghanistan with the US hoping to appeal to Pakistans more foresighted and progressive side but so far coming up short.

the only reason anyone rates these somali gangs (and that's what they are) is because nobody has had enough time to put a effort into annihilating them because the reward is abysmal compared to the cost, but if you for 8 seconds think South Africa, which one of the world's most advanced militaries and Nigeria with one of the continents only modern and easily one of the world's most experienced militaries, can't do in somalia what they've done tens of times all over the continent they're you're self dilluded.

Nigeria has a conflict going on in the Niger-Delta, its own version of bathtub pirates in the Gulf of Guinea and its own equivalance of Al-Shabaab retards with Boko Haram. You guys got your hands full as it is.

Why hypothesize about fighting conflicts on the other side of the continent?

it wasn't even 5 years ago that Ethiopia trashed these assholes,

They dislodged teachers, activists and moderate leaders, and allowed the rise of Al-Shabaab, a real thrashing of assholes indeed. :nuts:

simply because they wanted to, niether SA or Nigeria, which have both seen world war, have anything to gain from doing the same.

When has Nigeria engaged in a World War? Please don't tell me the Burma boys, plenty of boys from across the continent fought white men wars, but you can't make that part of their military history.

Also Ethiopians have centuries of more military history than Nigeria, most of it against Somalis, resulting in a better understanding of the latter, yet their military objective failed. Why?, because Al-Shabaab succesfully mass deseminated a propaganda campaign of "us against them''.

If it was as simple as putting boots on the ground, the Afghanistan war should have ended in 2001, yet the most technological advanced armies in the world are still battling rag-tag Taliban.

The American's got taken by surprise. No adequate planning or heavy support ect, don't give yourself too much credit. But the Kenyans are wide awake and will not hesitate to cream these MOFOS. RIP to the Peace Keepers and to their families. Obviously their families chose this. :|

If al shabaab knw how important the war in somalia is to burundi soldiers, how a soldier back in burundi earns 50 dollars amonth but when he goes to somalia he earns about 1000 dollars in allowances per month.
Do u think the burundi army is going to withdraw because bodies were dragged in the street?
Let me assure u any attempt by the burundi govt to withdraw will lead to a military coup.This is an army just out of a civil war where up to 500,000 people were killed and u think they will be intimidated by by a few deaths.Theses are burundians not Americans.

THE ONLY PROBLEM I SEE IS AL SHABAAB SPENDS TOO MUCH TIME FOLLOWING ARAB NEWS AND LACKS ANY KNOWLEDGE OF AFRICAN AFFAIRS BECAUSE IF THEY THINK THE POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD BURUNDI IS GOING TO LEAVE THE CASH COW CALLED SOMALIA BECAUSE OF DEAD SOLDIERS, I THINK THEY SHOULD TRY TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES ABOUT AFRICA BECAUSE THEY SPEND TOO MUCH TIME ON ARAB ISSUES .

MY MESSAGE TO AL SHABAAB IS SOMALIA IS NOT THE ONLY COUNTRY WITH ISSUES OTHERS TO HAVE AND THEY HOPE TO SOLVE THEIR ISSUES BY BEING IN SOMALIA.
+1, if you think about it Burundi is perfect for the job.

Am sorry but some Nigerians really make me sick for always trying to turn every discussion into telling how mighty their country is. Heri####ach!!!blow do some Boko Haram taming b4 feeling you could wipe another bigger Boko haram some 5000km from your millitary base

I think that credit has to be paid to the effort the burundian soldiers are exerting in Somalia, but they need support from countries with more developed armies.

Can you not be ignorant in 1 thread?

Its ignorant to assume that doing Safari (peacekeeping) is combat experiance.

Your mentioning being in Congo twice. there are only Angola, Namibia, Zimb which were aganged in combat. and FYI. they don't brag about it, and they don't call it Safari (peacekeeping) under the UN, it was direct combat SADC military intervation.

Other countries to ever engaged in combat in the 1960s was Ethiopia and Morroco. As for Angola civil war. In Africa, only SADC countries were involved in combat.

But good for you if you consider Safari (peacekeeping)combat.

These gallant soldiers died in the course of restoring some semblance of civility in a rudderless society such as Somalia and you find most,especially Somalians bloggers here , who incidentally are hiding their asses in foreign lands, saying these soldier asked for it.
Al Shabbab can kill as much as they want but there is a gradual build up of momentum to permanently annihilate these babaric sub-humans and certainly, Al shabbab time is short.

Am sorry but some Nigerians really make me sick for always trying to turn every discussion into telling how mighty their country is. Heri####ach!!!blow do some Boko Haram taming b4 feeling you could wipe another bigger Boko haram some 5000km from your millitary base

Im sorry kenya has a chicken military compared to nigeria.

Its ignorant to assume that doing Safari (peacekeeping) is combat experiance.

Your mentioning being in Congo twice. there are only Angola, Namibia, Zimb which were aganged in combat. and FYI. they don't brag about it, and they don't call it Safari (peacekeeping) under the UN, it was direct combat SADC military intervation.

Other countries to ever engaged in combat in the 1960s was Ethiopia and Morroco. As for Angola civil war. In Africa, only SADC countries were involved in combat.

But good for you if you consider Safari (peacekeeping)combat.

Nigerian army has combat experience and peace keeping is not safari. I think it is pedestrian to have such a view about peace keeping missions in hostile territory.
And what are you talking about bragging? It is a fact that the head of the UN intervention in Congo was Aguyi Ironsi- a Nigerian General. It is a fact that Nigerian troops were in the Congo to ensure peace in the 60s. It is a fact that Nigeria army fought a vicious war in Liberia and Sierra Leone in the 90s. In Liberia and Sierra Leone, armoured tanks, heavy artillery and fighter jets were deployed and used.

The theaters in Liberia and Sierra Leone were not for the faint hearted on safari. Those are facts and not bragging. And now this is about Al shabbab. I personally believe that this group is on its last days. It is an uncivilized group that has to be annihilated.

Edit

Butembo is a very ignorant fool that only belittles anything nigeria

When ever where Nigerian troops in combat in Angola?

Am sorry but some Nigerians really make me sick for always trying to turn every discussion into telling how mighty their country is. Heri####ach!!!blow do some Boko Haram taming b4 feeling you could wipe another bigger Boko haram some 5000km from your millitary base

Im sorry to bust your bubble but Boko-Haram is not Al shahab.. they dont control any part of Nigeria.. save for a few suicide attacks designed to attract media attention they are basically useless... they flee at the first sight of soldiers.. you realize it is virtually impossible to defend against suicide attacks?

[QUOTE=uyomufok;84934124]Nigerian army has combat experience and peace keeping is not safari. I think it is pedestrian to have such a view about peace keeping missions in hostile territory.
And what are you talking about bragging? It is a fact that the head of the UN intervention in Congo was Aguyi Ironsi- a Nigerian General. It is a fact that Nigerian troops were in the Congo to ensure peace in the 60s. It is a fact that Nigeria army fought a vicious war in Liberia and Sierra Leone in the 90s.
[QUOTE]
Nigeria has NEVER aganged in Combat in Congo. and i have listed countries that have.

Doing Safari =/= combat.

FYI, Congo honoured/recognized countries that were engaged in Combat in the 1960s. Nigeria isn't one of them.

As for 1998-2003. only 3 countries perticipated in combat. aiang. SADC countries. Angola, Zimb, and Namibia.

We consider peacekeepers, Armed Tourists.

I read OBJ's memoir.
Little known to you, Oluseun Obasanjo is a veteran of the Congo Crisis. He was in a fire fight against milita men in the eastern province.

either way the international contingent led by nigeria and specifically by a nigerian restored order to Congo, and that was weeks after independence.

When ever where Nigerian troops in combat in Angola?

http://beegeagle.wordpress.com/2010/12/12/nigerias-best-kept-military-secret-5000-troops-fought-in-angolas-first-civil-war/

[QUOTE=uyomufok;84934124]Nigerian army has combat experience and peace keeping is not safari. I think it is pedestrian to have such a view about peace keeping missions in hostile territory.
And what are you talking about bragging? It is a fact that the head of the UN intervention in Congo was Aguyi Ironsi- a Nigerian General. It is a fact that Nigerian troops were in the Congo to ensure peace in the 60s. It is a fact that Nigeria army fought a vicious war in Liberia and Sierra Leone in the 90s.
[QUOTE]
Nigeria has NEVER aganged in Combat in Congo. and i have listed countries that have.

Doing Safari =/= combat.

FYI, Congo honoured/recognized countries that were engaged in Combat in the 1960s. Nigeria isn't one of them.

As for 1998-2003. only 3 countries perticipated in combat. aiang. SADC countries. Angola, Zimb, and Namibia.

We consider peacekeepers, Armed Tourists.

And who are these Peace Keepers that you consider as tourist? Name one?

idk what butembo's beef with peace keeping is but it's bizarre.

lol @ Butembo, when did Africans peacekeeping in another nation become safari... or whatever u called it???

Im sorry kenya has a chicken military compared to nigeria.

Yeah. we know that chicken head army cook. You are getting late, your mighty soldiers are waiting for dinner. Come back later when you got the first sensible thing to talk about and I'll introduce you to my seven year old niece- perhaps she could help you grow up

These gallant soldiers died in the course of restoring some semblance of civility in a rudderless society such as Somalia and you find most,especially Somalians bloggers here , who incidentally are hiding their asses in foreign lands, saying these soldier asked for it.

Did the people of Somalia invite them? NO! Were they told there was a high chance they could die? YES! If Somali members highlight this, it doesn't mean they support Al-Shabaab or consider these deaths as somekind of a "victory". What kind of illogical thinking is that?

And what's this reference to "foreign lands" as if Somalis are the only Africans with a "diaspora", Nigeria has a diaspora population larger than Somalia's entire population, why the hell are you guys hiding when car bombs go off in your capital, your government sells your resources for pocket-change and shitty pirates hijack ships across the Gulf of Guinea?

...Thank you, thank you my broda, i couln't have said it better. They think because of Black Hawk going down mainly due to mechanical failures, that now they can unleash their high school violence on everybody.

Somalia launched conventional violence on Kenya, where was Kenya's response then?

The Rhamu Incident, on the 29th of June 1977, was a brief armed conflict between Kenya and Somalia, in which the latter invaded the Northern Frontier District on the eve of the Ogaden War. A force of 3000 Somali soldiers attacked a border post, and killed 30 Kenyan police officers and soldiers.[1] The Somali army did not stay as the objective of their mission was to invade Ethiopia from a different side through Kenya. Rhamu situated on the Ethiopian-Kenyan border lay on the road to the Sidamo region, and was considered a strategic point of entrance. The Somali government denied the invasion, and claimed to have no knowledge of the incident - Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhamu_Incident)

Now look at him thumbing his chest at me lol. It reminds me of the Kuwaitis talking shit to Iraqis about military and war, only after the latters' country collapsed.

thank you. I'm tired of people acting like Somalians are some organized united ultra fighting squad that nobody can mess with. Any country that has gone into somalia has done exactly what it wanted it at will and left,

With nothing to show for, and thousands of troops burried. Well done!

these men are armed gangs, not armies, and at times militias but for the most part just gangsters. On top of that their worst enemies are each other and they're all small, primarily drug addicted, and ill equipt. These men went into somalia galantly and to say 'this is what they get for going into somalia' is a display of the rift caused by their immense courage and the speaker's lack there of because there's no way you can understand. Somalians posted a picture of dead troops in a warzone, that's really nothing astonishing or something to clap for and they would need a wide screen panoramic lens for dead somalians in that same day so what's their point?

LOL at this guy trying to lecture us on what is common in militia-culture as if the average person doesn't know they are unorganised and disfunctional, why the hell do you think they are so hated by the populace?

thank you. Nigeria has specific key experience in situations like Somalia (restoring order to lawless countries),

Haha :lol: Dude how about dealing with the myriad of serious problems facing your country?

and with South Africa's technological, logstical, and economic advantage only a daft would be able to declare that nigeria and south africa can't do what Ethiopia (not taking anything away from them they have one of the continents strongest armies) does at will whenever somalia gets out of hand.

Every Ethiopian I have spoken to all unanimously agree the invasion was a disaster. It did exactly what it was supposed to prevent. Secondly all these shitty little battles aren't conventional, nor with a unified Somalia which is currently in a civil-war.

Otherwise it would be a different story.

lots of under 18's in the OASIS.

Is the Somali the sick bastard child of the universe? Everybody hates them, and yet they keep thumping their skinny hairy chest.

Awww is that supposed hurt us? We have always been the most hated group to the West ever since they descended upon the African continent, while your ancestors were the Colonials favorite boot-lickers. We don't look for anyone's approval or recognition.

Now go wear your Victorian wig, look in the mirror and repeat:

"I look like thee Whyman"

Nigerians should be would about the affair of their country, not what is going on in Somalia, deal with Boko Haram first before you open your traps.

Somalia launched conventional violence on Kenya, where was Kenya's response then?





When was that?Some of us missed it.:D

Awww is that supposed hurt us? We have always been the most hated group to the West ever since they descended upon the African continent, while your ancestors were the Colonials favorite boot-lickers. We don't look for anyone's approval or recognition.

Now go wear your Victorian wig, look in the mirror and repeat:

"I look like thee Whyman"

....I'll do that. Make sure before the week is over, you've called the welfare department to collect your weekly stipend in the name of your momma, daddy and ailing granny.

...Just remember, y'all aint shit, and make sure you wash your hands after using the loo lest you ingest some pupu underneath your finger nails.

and now everyone has the nerve to act like nigeria has any interest what so ever on Somalia's drug addiction and statelessness.


for clarification

You guys asked why nigeria isn't involved (like involvement even made sense because the country is hopeless)

A young man stated that Nigeria has no combat experience from a country that Nigeria restores order in every 20 years.


Nigerians stated that Nigeria and South Africa indeed have combat experience and have dealt with worst.




Nigeria is sorting out it's problems, which is the difference between it and Somalia or where ever you individuals are hiding at. Therefore we have no reason to involve ourselves in Somalia. the point remains.

- Nigeria has extensive combat experience.
- Somalians are defeated everytime the face non somali forces and ain't shit.

[QUOTE=mwanamwiwa;84935283]When was that?Some of us missed it.:D[/QUOTE

lol at Kenyans fighting, their not knowing for having courage..

[QUOTE=mwanamwiwa;84935283]When was that?Some of us missed it.:D[/QUOTE

lol at Kenyans fighting, their not knowing for having courage..


...Ask any Somalis what happened when they tried their shit in Mombasa? Do you know how many of y'all women were re-circumcised again? You must missed the memo. You might wanna ask yo momma!

and now everyone has the nerve to act like nigeria has any interest what so ever on Somalia's drug addiction and statelessness.


for clarification

You guys asked why nigeria isn't involved (like involvement even made sense because the country is hopeless)

A young man stated that Nigeria has no combat experience from a country that Nigeria restores order in every 20 years.


Nigerians stated that Nigeria and South Africa indeed have combat experience and have dealt with worst.




Nigeria is sorting out it's problems, which is the difference between it and Somalia or where ever you individuals are hiding at. Therefore we have no reason to involve ourselves in Somalia. the point remains.

- Nigeria has extensive combat experience.
- Somalians are defeated everytime the face non somali forces and ain't shit.

Haha, Speaking about Nigeria as if its on the same level as South Africa.
You Should Watch the documentary tilted " Welcome to Lagos"

Every Ethiopian I have spoken to all unanimously agree the invasion was a disaster. It did exactly what it was supposed to prevent.
Ethiopian army reach Mogadishu in two weeks, crushing Al Shabab wasn't an issue, gaining Somali's trust was.

The Al Shabab used "we against them" rhetoric and even moderate Somalis took Al Shabab's side. I mean, when you have Somali teenagers raised in Stockholm, flying down to join a group like Al Shabab, you know that the situation is fucked up.

The situation is a little different now. The TFG has had time to develop and gain local trust. The Kenyan's are generally seen as a friendly neighbor, or at least not a life time enemy.

Let's hope for the best.

[QUOTE=Waranle;84935341]


...Ask any Somalis what happened when they tried their shit in Mombasa? Do you know how many of y'all women were re-circumcised again? You must missed the memo. You might wanna ask yo momma!

Nothing is happening, We only taking over Mombasa :lol::lol:

a united somalia would be a different story? a united somalia already lost to Ethiopia, what are you talking about?

LMAO, you mean Somalia lost against the Eastern Bloc and Cuba:


"The Soviet aid has done little to mend the shattered state of the Ethiopian morale, and military observers are saying that it will take direct involvement by Soviet or Cuban personel to stem the flow of the Somali advance and the collapse of the Ethiopian Empire."

SI9UmYfxINY
z5vSB71dNI8

I think the only thing more pathetic then the fact that a pack of self serving drug addicted gangmembers run every square mile of somalia, the world's only failed state, is the glee by which somalis defend these gangsters and propogate them as some supreme fighting force.

Nobody is defending these shitty militia's! Its you guys who can't seem to differentiate these factions from the general populace or the country itself and instead insult this entire nationality. I can see through this, which is why I'm countering it with the same venom, fuck it. :)

Its like that Nigerian underwear-bomber attempting to destroy an American plane, and Americans suddenly talking shit about Nigerians in general. WTF?

again, no country has gone into somalia without an objective and failed to achieve it.

Nonsense, every political scientist is in agreement that interventions in Somalia were an utter failure.

The country is of no benefit to anyone to the extent that anyone outside of somalia would try to 'restore order' but if they wanted to it would happen.

LOL, it sits on the most strategic trade lanes of the world, it has one of the largest uranium reserves in the world, not to mention is postulated to have an oil-wealth that could rival that of Nigeria.

Yeah no benefit at all. :lol:

i've even heard somalis brag about how shitty their country is and act as if somali pirates are the scorge of the earth when they're really assholes in bathtubs with hockey sticks.

How is that different from Nigerians bragging about how shitty their country is on nairaland, and boasting that their army could destroy America and China with one hand. (I swear to god I remember a topic like that :D)

lol at Kenyans fighting, their not knowing for having courage..

:nuts:

What a dumbass.Is living like animals considered courage?

Ethiopian army reach Mogadishu in two weeks

Somalia reached the outskirts of Addis Ababa in the same time-span, yet could not hold on to its gains. Speed matters little in the long-term.

crushing Al Shabab wasn't an issue, gaining Somali's trust was.

The Islamic Courts Union, an organisation of teachers, politicians and activists you mean? Al-Shabab was a minor player then.

The Al Shabab used "we against them" rhetoric and even moderate Somalis took Al Shabab's side. I mean, when you have Somali teenagers raised in Stockholm, flying down to join a group like Al Shabab, you know that the situation is fucked up.

It had nothing to do with the human-rights abuses? :nuts:

The situation is a little different now. The TFG has had time to develop and gain local trust. The Kenyan's are generally seen as a friendly neighbor, or at least not a life time enemy.

Let's hope for the best.

Way to early to predict what will happen, indeed hope for the best.

Mombasa? lol! the al shabaab can defend but the worst they can do in attacks is use a suicide grenader to blow up a small crowd in a city.

....take it back....

Nothing is happening, We only taking over Mombasa :lol::lol:

You guys really love Kenya,as if Somalia is not big enough.:weird:

Is the Somali the sick bastard child of the universe? Everybody hates them, and yet they keep thumping their skinny hairy chest. I can't hazard to guess how many times Kenya has tried to help, but all amounts to naught. Shindwe!!!

I think the whole operation in Somalia has made you hyperactive and is causing you to not be able to rethink what you write. Take a break for a couple days. :hi:

LMAO, you mean Somalia lost against the Eastern Bloc and Cuba:

"The Soviet aid has done little to mend the shattered state of the Ethiopian morale, and military observers are saying that it will take direct involvement by Soviet or Cuban personel to stem the flow of the Somali advance and the collapse of the Ethiopian Empire."
Somalia was united and strong back then, I give you that.

It's worth noting though that the communist regime that controlled Ethiopia at that time was extremely hated by every single group in the country. Ethiopian military was not only fighting a united Somalia but also guerrilla groups within the country.

LMAO, you know you f.cked someone's mind when they start their mommy and daddy jokes. :lol: I have two Kenyan servants that look after my estate over there,who knows one of them is..........(no to easy :lol:)

???

Has it come to this?

and now everyone has the nerve to act like nigeria has any interest what so ever on Somalia's drug addiction and statelessness.

Somalis don't give a damn about Nigerians practicing ballet in the middle of Lagos, go focus on your own shit mr ballerina:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tvxAMrLnNRg/TbLksDJSrzI/AAAAAAAAG7Q/h2Twsfsb564/s1600/Nigeria%2Bpost%2Belection%2Bviolence.jpg


- Nigeria has extensive combat experience.
- Somalians are defeated everytime the face non somali forces and ain't shit.

Somalis were the first to defeat a European army in the middle ages, the first to repulse the British Empire in a retreat. Our military history is long and glorious and eclipses that of Nigeria easily.

???

Has it come to this?

Alright I take it back.

No more insults guys, on either side. Discuss this issue like adults and not 2 year old children. I have thrown one guy in the brig and will do it again if the insults continue.

I'm tired of people acting like Somalians are some organized united ultra fighting squad that nobody can mess with. Any country that has gone into somalia has done exactly what it wanted it at will and left, these men are armed gangs, not armies, and at times militias but for the most part just gangsters. On top of that their worst enemies are each other and they're all small, primarily drug addicted, and ill equipt. These men went into somalia galantly and to say 'this is what they get for going into somalia' is a display of the rift caused by their immense courage and the speaker's lack there of because there's no way you can understand. Somalians posted a picture of dead troops in a warzone, that's really nothing astonishing or something to clap for and they would need a wide screen panoramic lens for dead somalians in that same day so what's their point?

No one said that Somalis are an "ultra fighting squad that nobody can mess with" :lol: But facts are facts and the fact is that the actors that have entered the conflict in Somalia such as the U.N, U.S, Ethiopia have all left Somalia after losing soldiers and without making any long term and sustainable gains.
AMISOM has been in Somalia since 2008 and in those years it still has not gone beyond parts of Mogadishu but has lost hundreds of soldiers. Many of these actors were well armed and trained usually with the support of the E.U/U.N/U.S. For example AMISOM has been fully trained, funded and equipped by E.U/U.S and it has also the support from French/British/German [strategy/logistics] advisors on the ground and it is still where it was in 2008 - 'progress' at a snail's pace if you like. Make of it what you will but the facts speak for themselves.

If you are saying that Al-shabab, a fundamentalist Islamic group, are "drug addicted", then you clearly know little about this group :lol: Of the many things they have banned in the areas they control include smoking of tobacco and let alone any drugs :lol:

I sense a lot of bitterness from you but the thing is that the Solution to the problem is always going to be internal. External forces have done nothing but destabilise Somalia and contribute towards maintaining the status quo. Interference is disliked by the Somali people and this invasion by Kenya will only bolster and strengthen groups like al-shabab who would not and will not continue to exist without at least some support of locals. It is not for foreigners to dictate whom will govern Somalia but the solution will always be grass-roots and internally driven as would have been the case with the ICU. The war in Somalia would have ended long ago but for foreign interference. Countries that put troops in Somalia should expect to lose soldiers and I see you have been emotionally moved by the pictures of the AMISOM soldiers but that is war mate - actions have consequences.

thank you. Nigeria has specific key experience in situations like Somalia (restoring order to lawless countries), and with South Africa's technological, logstical, and economic advantage only a daft would be able to declare that nigeria and south africa can't do what Ethiopia (not taking anything away from them they have one of the continents strongest armies) does at will whenever somalia gets out of hand.

Nigeria and South-Africa have little to do with this conflict, no reason or interest to get involved in Somalia and they would not gain anything from it. I would be surprised if they were to get involved.

No more insults guys, on either side. Discuss this issue like adults and not 2 year old children. I have thrown one guy in the brig and will do it again if the insults continue.

+1

I am just going to watch this and say nothing.

I can't believe what I am seeing here.:ohno:

I have to wake up early for a meeting tomorrow. My humble apologies to all those whose feelings I hurt. :D

Remember they're just words on a screen, words on a screen.

Awww is that supposed hurt us? We have always been the most hated group to the West ever since they descended upon the African continent, while your ancestors were the Colonials favorite boot-lickers. We don't look for anyone's approval or recognition.

Now go wear your Victorian wig, look in the mirror and repeat:

"I look like thee Whyman"

True dat ... LMAO :lol::lol::lol::lol:

We don't look for anyone's approval or recognition. - :cheers:

It had nothing to do with the human-rights abuses? :nuts:

Somalis have committed crimes a million times harsher against each other for a very long time. Let's not pretend that Somali teenagers in the West joining the fight were thinking about "human-rights", it was nationalism written all over it.

Either way, the main reason to why Ethiopia failed to gain support was because it was Ethiopia, Somalias arch enemy. Al Shabab played the "we against them" rhetoric and it worked, we both know this. Let's not argue over this for the sake of arguing.

8Y8LiP8da4A

Quickly,

Yonii, and Ethiopians have committed crimes a million times worse to eachother than Siad Barre and Ahmed Guray could ever claim, yet if a Somali army tomorrow were to stand on your doorsteps and began committing human-rights abuses, how fast would we see Ethiopian Airlines flights from Washington and Stockholm?

^^ Ali Mahmud Ragi look like T-pain.

and now everyone has the nerve to act like nigeria has any interest what so ever on Somalia's drug addiction and statelessness.


Dude I can assure you no SOmali wants Nigeria or Nigerians to be involved in Somalia. So take your attitude and your military and put it to use in either keeping the peace between the cristians and the muslims or to fight your various groups i.e. boko haram.

^^ Ali Mahmud Ragi look like T-pain.

Who's T pain?

some rapper.

Quickly,

Yonii, and Ethiopians have committed crimes a million times worse to eachother than Siad Barre and Ahmed Guray could ever claim, yet if a Somali army tomorrow were to stand on your doorsteps and began committing human-rights abuses, how fast would we see Ethiopian Airlines flights from Washington and Stockholm?
Lies. 20 years of civil wars, almost all Somalilanders close to be wiped out. When has anything close to this ever happened in Ethiopia.

If Ethiopia was in the hands of extremists, and Somalis invaded to remove them, those flights would had been empty.

some rapper.
Kinda,

http://cdn.urbanislandz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/t-pain-mug-shot.jpg

Either way, the main reason to why Ethiopia failed to gain support was because it was Ethiopia, Somalias arch enemy. Al Shabab played the "we against them" rhetoric and it worked, we both know this. Let's not argue over this for the sake of arguing.

Indeed, because you honestly will never get it.

Kinda,

http://cdn.urbanislandz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/t-pain-mug-shot.jpg

Not really.

http://allshabelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/alshabaab-Muj.jpg

when you have Somali teenagers raised in Stockholm, flying down to join a group like Al Shabab

When Ethiopia invaded in 2006 Al-shabab didnt exist and lol @ teenagers from stockholm fighting against ethiopian troops talk about kidding ones self; i don't think there are thousands of somali youth in stockholm to begin with.

Indeed, because you honestly will never get it.
Constantine MMX even stated himself that they gain supported by trumping the "we against them" mentality, which made Al Shabab even stronger than before the invasion.

I get it perfectly fine, you can continue to pretending that patriotic sentiments had nothing to do with it.

Lies. 20 years of civil wars,

LOL, your civil-war started the moment the Eritreans said freedom, and their war of independence began, add to that the Derg era of Ethiopia becoming a paradise of Liberation armies, and you have a civil-war longer than the current ongoing one in Somalia.

almost all Somalilanders close to be wiped out.

B.S, the government is responsible for around 100k deaths across Somalia, half of them in the then Northwest Somalia (Somaliland), which had a population of around 1.5 million.

Clearly your exaggerating, not for the first time.

When has anything close to this ever happened in Ethiopia.

Most of the Somali-Civil war casualties are a result of famine, rather than bullets. We both know a million died during the man-made famine in Ethiopia, countless more due to war.

If Ethiopia was in the hands of extremists, and Somalis invaded to remove them, those flights would had been empty.

Haha :lol:, nice one.

LMAO, you mean Somalia lost against the Eastern Bloc and Cuba:


"The Soviet aid has done little to mend the shattered state of the Ethiopian morale, and military observers are saying that it will take direct involvement by Soviet or Cuban personel to stem the flow of the Somali advance and the collapse of the Ethiopian Empire."

SI9UmYfxINY
z5vSB71dNI8


Without the cuban troops, soviet generals and advisors Somalia did and would have won that war.

Constantine MMX even stated himself that they gain supported by trumping the "we against them" mentality, which made Al Shabab even stronger than before the invasion.

I get it perfectly fine, you can continue to pretending that patriotic sentiments had nothing to do with it.

Your clutching at straws there buddy :lol:

Okay Yoniii, so the fact that they ruined a city's first real semblance of peace in fifteen years, scared away businessmen, brought back the checkpoints, the warlords, and the khat as well as bombing mosques and raping innocent women had nothing to do with it. Gotcha.

Habeen wanaagsan walaalyaal. :D

Well I would assume Somalia would have a longer history than Nigeria considering it was an artificial entity only 50 yrs old Constantine. An entity of no ones choosing. :doh:

When Ethiopia invaded in 2006 Al-shabab didnt exist and lol @ teenagers from stockholm fighting against ethiopian troops talk about kidding ones self; i don't think there are thousands of somali youth in stockholm to begin with.
I didn't state that they were fighting Ethiopian troops, but some teenagers have joined Al Shabab and died in Somalia. source (http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/unga-svenskar-doda-i-strid-i-somalia) (use Google translate)

Well, I don't know the exact number of Somalis living in Stockholm, but the total population in Sweden is over 30 000. Largest African immigrant group by far.

It's worth noting though that the communist regime that controlled Ethiopia at that time was extremely hated by every single group in the country. Ethiopian military was not only fighting a united Somalia but also guerrilla groups within the country.

Well the cycle is repeating itself again. The dictator Woyane Zenwai of the TPLF or Tigre [ethnic group] liberation front has been holding on to power for too long. The Oromo liberation front, Gambella conflict, Afar liberation movement, Ogaden liberation front are all still active.

I didn't state that they were fighting Ethiopian troops, but some teenagers have joined Al Shabab and died in Somalia. source (http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/unga-svenskar-doda-i-strid-i-somalia) (use Google translate)

A few; practically insignificant. But there are many more [non-somali] Kenyans that have joined alshabab...

Well I would assume Somalia would have a longer history than Nigeria considering it was an artificial entity only 50 yrs old Constantine. An entity of no ones choosing. :doh:

"Somalia" as a country is only 51 years old, and like most African countries, an arbitrary creation by Europeans drawing on the map. In our case, we had to not only contend with one European country but three!! UK, Italy, and France (Djibouti).

But the Somali culture and identity collectively is several centuries old.

Which is my point, the Somali identity has existed much longer than the Nigerian one. So of course history would be longer.

^ You said Somalia not Somali identity :lol:

Fair enough. Why are we talking about Nigeria anyways? :D

Infer :doh:
Because Ajepako must insert Nigeria in everything :lol:

LOL, your civil-war started the moment the Eritreans said freedom, and their war of independence began, add to that the Derg era of Ethiopia becoming a paradise of Liberation armies, and you have a civil-war longer than the current ongoing one in Somalia.

There's one huge difference though, the divided armies were fighting each other. Civilians, for the most part, were left alone. In Somalia, you had a president that wanted to wipe an entire clan.


B.S, the government is responsible for around 100k deaths across Somalia, half of them in the then Northwest Somalia (Somaliland), which had a population of around 1.5 million.

Clearly your exaggerating, not for the first time.

Not really, the entire Isaac clan fled to Ethiopia, according to a source Xusein posted yesterday. What do you think would had happened if they stayed? Hugs and forgiveness? Denial, not the first time.


Most of the Somali-Civil war casualties are a result of famine, rather than bullets. We both know a million died during the man-made famine in Ethiopia, countless more due to war.

How is famine in Ethiopia related to anything we are discussing here, Mr. Eritrea style arguments, nice.


Haha :lol:, nice one.
Keep laughing, but if a group of people that thought it was OK to kill a child for watching football on TV were to rule my country, I would want to be liberated from them by ANYONE - including Somalis.

Well the cycle is repeating itself again. The dictator Woyane Zenwai of the TPLF or Tigre [ethnic group] liberation front has been holding on to power for too long. The Oromo liberation front, Gambella conflict, Afar liberation movement, Ogaden liberation front are all still active.
Yes he has been holding on to power for too long. ONLF yes, the rest, well in the west or in neighboring countries.

Ironically, Ethiopia has never been this stable. Anyone can travel to any parts of the country, except for some areas in south-eastern Somali region, without feeling threatened. Needless to say, this wasn't the situation during Derg.

A few; practically insignificant. But there are many more [non-somali] Kenyans that have joined alshabab...
Unfortunately yes, religious extremism is a dangerous thing.

In Somalia, you had a president that wanted to wipe an entire clan.


Not really, the entire Isaac clan fled to Ethiopia, according to a source Xusein posted yesterday. What do you think would had happened if they stayed? Hugs and forgiveness? Denial, not the first time.


The president didn't want to wipe out any clan that is nonsense. The war was between the group backed by ethiopia and the government. As one would expect the civilian population fled to the nearest place; the Somali region on the other side of the porous border. You're looking for something else Yoniii ut what normal civillian person would stay in a warzone - of course they fled :lol:

Okay Yoniii, so the fact that they ruined a city's first real semblance of peace in fifteen years, scared away businessmen, brought back the checkpoints, the warlords, and the khat as well as bombing mosques and raping innocent women had nothing to do with it. Gotcha.
I would like to see sources for those wild claims.

Habeen wanaagsan walaalyaal. :D
A Kenyan ended up in the brig, but who knows how many insults y'all been throwing around in Somali.

Somalis don't give a damn about Nigerians practicing ballet in the middle of Lagos, go focus on your own shit mr ballerina:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tvxAMrLnNRg/TbLksDJSrzI/AAAAAAAAG7Q/h2Twsfsb564/s1600/Nigeria%2Bpost%2Belection%2Bviolence.jpg




Somalis were the first to defeat a European army in the middle ages, the first to repulse the British Empire in a retreat. Our military history is long and glorious and eclipses that of Nigeria easily.

Somalia and Naija are not in the same category. Talk about this demented Al shabbab that is so sub human in their tendencies. Nigeria is not in Somalia's league.....

Yes he has been holding on to power for too long. ONLF yes, the rest, well in the west or in neighboring countries.

Ironically, Ethiopia has never been this stable. Anyone can travel to any parts of the country, except for some areas in south-eastern Somali region, without feeling threatened. Needless to say, this wasn't the situation during Derg.

Last time it was Amhara domination and this time it is Tigre domination of Ethiopia. A lot of people are frustrated with Tigre domination, Woyane TPLF. btw I have a question. Why do some Ethiopians call tigre Agame and what is it ?

The president didn't want to wipe out any clan that is nonsense. The war was between the group backed by ethiopia and the government. As one would expect the civilian population fled to the nearest place; the Somali region on the other side of the porous border. You're looking for something else Yoniii ut what normal civillian person would stay in a warzone - of course they fled :lol:
Are you denying the genocide that occurred in Somaliland? One can only imagine to what would happened if those people had stayed.

Somalia and Naija are not in the same category. Talk about this demented Al shabbab that is so sub human in their tendencies. Nigeria is not in Somalia's league.....

Great. Somalia's not in your league so stop acknowledging it! I dont talk to people that I percieve to be beneath me, do you?


I would like to see sources for those wild claims.

I will once I can; I am currently on a mobile.


A Kenyan ended up in the brig, but who knows how many insults y'all been throwing around in Somali.

Hold your horses, all he said was "good night". :laugh:

Somalia and Naija are not in the same category. Talk about this demented Al shabbab that is so sub human in their tendencies. Nigeria is not in Somalia's league.....

lol what has Naija to do with this topic ? Nigeria is not involved int eh conflict and it has not interest or intention in being so. :nuts:

Last time it was Amhara domination and this time it is Tigre domination of Ethiopia. A lot of people are frustrated with Tigre domination, Woyane TPLF. btw I have a question. Why do some Ethiopians call tigre Agame and what is it ?
Actually it was communist domination "the last time". I don't know the ethnicity of Mengistu and it's irrelevant since his crazy ideologies formed his policies. Agame is a region in Tigray.

Are you denying the genocide that occurred in Somaliland? One can only imagine to what would happened if those people had stayed.

LOL @ genocide. You are trolling now. This has 0, nothing, to do with the topic at hand.

There was war and there were civillian casualties

uyomufok why are you continuing it :lol: abeg wetin concern una? Na pesin dey craze na craze he go tok?

Great. Somalia's not in your league so stop acknowledging it! I dont talk to people that I percieve to be beneath me, do you?

I will once I can; I am currently on a mobile.



Hold your horses, all he said was "good night". :laugh:

Put a fool in his place so he knows he is foolish. Equally, do not put a fool in his place least you appear foolish. Sometimes foolishness is not worth being ignored, it can be cancerous. You get me?

Actually it was communist domination "the last time". I don't know the ethnicity of Mengistu and it's irrelevant since his crazy ideologies formed his policies. Agame is a region in Tigray.

Lol @ comunist domination it was Amhara domination and don't evern try to deny this. The Tigre people liberation front wanted The Republic of Greater Tigre once they had overthrown the Amhara dominated regime. Oromo liberation front, Ogaden Nat. LF, Aafar Liberation Front, Gambella each tribe had their own objectives and there was Eritrea. Ethiopia has deep ethnic problems and the Woyane policy of ethnic federalism aint helping the siuation either:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2W6Kqoxd5x4/TEA86IiXTSI/AAAAAAAAABo/6f8h5t4EAV4/s1600/Ethiopia_regions_english1.jpg


The tigre group, northern most region is dominating the country and the other ethnic groups in Ethiopia through the dictator Meles Zenawi and the TPLF; Zenawi is pumping development money into his own region Tigray at the detriment of the other regions. Previously the Amhara ethnic group dominated the country and its politics and this caused a civil war as well as Eritrea breaking apart.

uyomufok why are you continuing it :lol: abeg wetin concern una? Na pesin dey craze na craze he go tok?

Just having fun....What do I care in this matter? Every dickson wan yarn okpata where naija dey...even born troway wey no get yash wan dance makossa because na naija. U 4 gree? Tell me ! lol

Put a fool in his place so he knows he is foolish. Equally, do not put a fool in his place least you appear foolish. Sometimes foolishness is not worth being ignored, it can be cancerous. You get me?

:laugh::nuts:

LOL @ genocide. You are trolling now. This has 0, nothing, to do with the topic at hand.

There was war and there were civillian casualties
Trolling is you talking about Tigrays in a "somali politics" thread.

Here's one source, with the most modest numbers I've seen.

The forces of Siad Barre's government responded by bombarding the cities and pursuing the separatist rebels. Schools were razed; water and electricity were made inaccessible. Half a million northerners fled into Ethiopia. Some fifty thousand people died. Those who returned, after the Somali army had left the north, found their homes looted and mined.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/010430_somaliland.shtml

Now what would had happened if those half a million people had stayed in their homes. Said obviously didn't care about their lives.

Trolling is you talking about Tigrays in a "somali politics" thread.



Are you denying that Tigre dominate Ethiopia ? Or that Amhara used to dominate the country before the civil war ?

Trolling is you talking about Tigrays in a "somali politics" thread.

Here's one source, with the most modest numbers I've seen.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/010430_somaliland.shtml

Now what would had happened if those half a million people had stayed in their homes. Said obviously didn't care about their lives.

Typical african war with a government fighting rebels and the civillian population fleeing; obviously your looking for something more though. Civillians fled the war as any other people would have done - nothing special there.

I am returning you the favour :lol: :cheers:

So you admit to be trolling, while I'm talking about Somali issues in a Somali thread. I stated the Somaliland genocide in relation to a point I was making, you wanted proof and I gave it to you.

Your link proved that civillians and combatants died - that does not amount to "genocide".

In the Ethiopian Civil war and the Ethio-Eritrea war that followed:

More than 300-thousand troops remain dug-in and deadlocked along an 800-kilometer front. All civilians in the area have fled, leaving the armies to fight over empty villages. A peace plan brokered by the Organization of African Unity has failed to stop the conflict, which is affecting the entire Horn of Africa.

I wonder what would have happened if the civilians would not have fled ?

Typical african war with a government fighting rebels and the civillian population fleeing; obviously your looking for something more though. Civillians fled the war as any other people would have done - nothing special there.
Right, it was just a typical little war, let's forget about it. :lol: Google "Somaliland genocide" if you want to read more about it.

Just having fun....What do I care in this matter? Every dickson wan yarn okpata where naija dey...even born troway wey no get yash wan dance makossa because na naija. U 4 gree? Tell me ! lol

:lol: don't follow Ajepako into senseless talk

Right, it was just a typical little war, let's forget about it. :lol: Google "Somaliland genocide" if you want to read more about it.



Here is a report by Genocide Watch about the Genocide in Gambella region of Ethiopia if you want to do more reading on that:

http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/Ethiopia_23_Feb_04_US_Government_Wants_Gambella_Violence_Investigated.pdf


Former ruler of Ethiopia Mengistu is guilty of Genocide if you want to read more:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/mengistu-found-guilty-of-ethiopian-genocide-428233.html

Massacre of the Anuak in Ethiopia - if you want to read some more:

http://www.genocidewatch.org/THE%20ANUAK%20OF%20ETHIOPIA.htm

http://www.mcgillreport.org/genocide_broadens.htm

Melez Zenwi prime minster of Ethiopia accused of Genocide - 2011; if you want to read more

http://addisvoice.com/2011/10/watchdog-warns-ethiopia-of-genocide-threats/
http://ecadforum.com/ethiopian-news/11513/

Ethiopian government committing Genocide in Ogaden region - 2011 ... if you want to do more reading

http://sfbayview.com/2011/western-funded-genocide-ethiopia-and-the-ogaden/

http://www.africanrightsmonitor.org/

Are you guys really arguing about who killed more people :crazy:
I didn't know this kind of crazy exists... na wa for the HOA :laugh:

Are you guys really arguing about who killed more people :crazy:
I didn't know this kind of crazy exists... na wa for the HOA :laugh:
No, I mentioned the massacre in Somaliland somewhere and I guess he got offended. So now he's on some "payback" tip. :lol:

Discussing Somali politics with Somalis is difficult enough due to biases, ICBB to educate non-Somalis about it if this thread is any indication. Its a fruitless endeavour.

Are you guys really arguing about who killed more people :crazy:
I didn't know this kind of crazy exists... na wa for the HOA :laugh:

This guy wants to talk about genocide but apparently he doesn't know about what has and is happining in his country :lol:

Are you guys really arguing about who killed more people :crazy:
I didn't know this kind of crazy exists... na wa for the HOA :laugh:

I have to say the Oasis helped open my eyes on the issues in the HOA.

Didnt realize they had that much issues going on

I have to say the Oasis helped open my eyes on the issues in the HOA.

Didnt realize they had that much issues going on

every region has its own issues, some regions have more issues than others :lol:

I have to say the Oasis helped open my eyes on the issues in the HOA.

Didnt realize they had that much issues going on

:lol: the rest have it easy...