http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/821/somaliamapstatesregions.png (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/somaliamapstatesregions.png/)

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Thoughts,

First thought, this picture is bigger than the area TFG controls.

I don't get it. What is this about?

I don't get it. What is this about?

I don’t know how any clearer I could possible make the thread title. It speaks for itself :lol:

That pic is enormous.

What's the difference between H and X when writing in Somali? It seems like it's the same sound to me.

The pic is bigger than earth itself.

Sorry about the picture, that is the only size available

Here's a resized version

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/821/somaliamapstatesregions.png (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/somaliamapstatesregions.png/)

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^^Is it me or the areas controlled by the TFG reduced and those under Al Shabab increased in size?

Somaliland seems to have "re" gained control of most of Sool and Sanaag regions.

That pic is enormous.

What's the difference between H and X when writing in Somali? It seems like it's the same sound to me.

X is for somali.

And h is for English.

X is for somali.

And h is for English.

Are you kidding Ja'far?! Both letters are used in Somali but have different pronunciations (though close).

"X" is for the prounounciation of Hajj, Halal, Hussein...

While "H" is pronounced like the English "H"


Abesha, even Tigrinya has that X sound. Yeha is pronounced that way.

Are you kidding Ja'far?! Both letters are used in Somali but have different pronunciations (though close).

"X" is for the prounounciation of Hajj, Halal, Hussein...

While "H" is pronounced like the English "H"


Abesha, even Tigrinya has that X sound. Yeha is pronounced that way.

I pronounce Hussein, Halal, Hajj and Yeha like the English H :lol::nuts:

Is it like the Kh sound in like Khaled? A throaty H?
I know Tigrigna has that throaty sound.

Are you kidding Ja'far?! Both letters are used in Somali but have different pronunciations (though close).

"X" is for the prounounciation of Hajj, Halal, Hussein...

While "H" is pronounced like the English "H"


Abesha, even Tigrinya has that X sound. Yeha is pronounced that way.

what i mean by that is "X" and "H" both sound the same in Somali. Hovever, in eglish both are pronounce differently.

I pronounce Hussein, Halal, Hajj and Yeha like the English H :lol::nuts:

Is it like the Kh sound in like Khaled? A throaty H?
I know Tigrigna has that throaty sound.

You it wrong then :lol: but the sound is different, I don't know how to say but languages such as Arabic, Tigrinya have it.
Its not the same as "KH" sound, which is spelled the same as you did in Somali. And true, Tigrinya has that sound too.


what i mean by that is "X" and "H" both sound the same in Somali. Hovever, in eglish both are pronounce differently.

Again are you kidding Ja'far? Can't you distinguish between X and H in Somali. They're not pronounced the same even in Somali. But for English, its just that they don't even, have that sound.

I found this on another forum, a guy compared Somalia to feudal Japan during the Sengoku Jidai period.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Azuchimomoyama-japan.png/621px-Azuchimomoyama-japan.png


Here's some background on the comparisons he gave:

The Somali civil war seems to be following the exact route that Feudal Japan took to reunification...

1) Central Power (Ashikaga Shogunate, Siad Barre's government) becomes a joke as the powerful clans of the country arm themselves.
2) The most powerful clans in the country duke it out in an enormously bloody conflict that destroys all governing order in the country (Ōnin War, Somalia 1991-1993), the country becomes a seething mass of killing, looting and destruction.
3) The powerful clan factions turn on each other, and tear the country into a million pieces. Military warlords overthrow the "legitimate" aristocracy (Gekokujō, Somalia 1993-2000)
4) Religious groups attempt to establish some order and law (Ikkō-ikki, Islamic Courts), inevitably they are driven to establish a theocratic administration.
5) The most powerful groups begin conquering their weaker neighbors and establish regional hegemonic states. The most powerful amongst them begins conquering the other states one by one until there are only a handful of very powerful states left in the country.
6) The most powerful group begins conquering all the others. <--- Somalia is here

The similarities are mind boggling, even the maps are identical.

^interesting comparison.
German was the same way.

Hopefully Galmudug stays as a buffer. :)

first thing i said to myself when reading this title was bad, possibly? lol
thnx for the map. being waiting for a newer version

Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni appealed on Sunday for more international support to bolster the African Union force in Somalia during a brief visit to the capital Mogadishu.

Museveni met President Sheikh Sharif Ahmed at the airport along with Somalia's new Prime Minister Mohamed Abdullahi Mohamed and some members of a fresh, streamlined cabinet that was approved by parliament on Saturday.

"We want more troops, from Uganda or from anywhere in Africa. Uganda is a country of 33 million people so we could mobilise 3 million people. But who will pay for it?" said Museveni, who faces a presidential election in February.

"International support is not enough. They don't take the Somali problem seriously," said the former rebel, who visited Mogadishu wearing combat fatigues.

Uganda and Burundi provide all the 7,200 African Union soldiers in Mogadishu propping up a Western-backed government that has failed to stamp its authority on much more than a slice of the capital.

Two hardline Islamist insurgent groups control the rest of Mogadishu and much of southern and central Somalia. The African Union troops have so far prevented the rebels from toppling the weak government by defending key sites.

"I came to check on our troops and also to consult his excellency (President Ahmed). I am very pleased they formed a new government, have a new Prime Minister and are united. Our troops' morale is very high."

FOREIGN JIHADISTS

The AU and the seven-nation east African Intergovernmental Authority on Development (IGAD) have said it could take about 20,000 troops to help quell the insurgents in Somalia, a country without stable central government for nearly 20 years.

Uganda has said it could supply the whole force but wants Western nations and others to help foot the bill.

While there have been many pledges of international support for the Somali government, incessant infighting and rampant corruption have not helped its cause, while government soldiers have missed out on salaries for months.

Western nations say the Horn of African country has become a safe haven for jihadists training to launch attacks in neighbouring countries and further afield.

Somali insurgents linked to al Qaeda killed at least 76 people watching the soccer World Cup final in Uganda's capital with bomb blasts, in retaliation for the Ugandan troop presence.

The chaos in Somalia has also allowed piracy to flourish off shore. The number of successful hijackings by Somali pirates was at a five-year high in the first nine-months of 2010.

Somalia's new prime minister, who has been in office for about a month, plans to recruit 8,000 government troops to push the rebels and foreign fighters in their ranks out of Mogadishu.

"My first, second and third priority is improving security. In the first phase we are going to recruit 8,000 government troops," Mohamed told Reuters in an interview last week.

"Our initial target will be to drive the rebels from the capital Mogadishu and then the rest of the country. We shall not talk to foreign jihadists ... who came here to harass our people and our country," the prime minister said.

Uganda's President Yoweri Museveni has paid a surprise visit to Somalia's war-ravaged capital.

A spokesman for the African Union peacekeepers, Barigye Bahoku, says that Museveni's more than 4-hour visit on Sunday was meant to show his solidarity with the war-battered Somali people.

He says Museveni met with the Somali president, the prime minister, and peacekeeping commanders and soldiers before he left the country. Uganda has contributed the bulk of the 7,000-strong African Union force that is keeping the country's weak government alive.

Museveni is a strong supporter of an African intervention to defeat insurgents who confined the U.N-backed government into a few blocks of the capital, Mogadishu.

Bahoku says this was Museveni's second visit to Somalia since he took power in 1986.

This man does not stop begging the West for money does he. He actually has no shame whatsoever, he actually thinks he will single handily resolve the Somali situation with his heavy handed approach; he is trying to achieve something beyond his limitations. He also spoke about stopping piracy which doesn’t even plague South Somalia. Even Puntland are anti-AU.

All in all, the Ugandans are worsening the situation and increasing support for Al Shabab with their relentless shelling of Civilians, with each death of a civilian, his relatives joins Al Shabab

this was Museveni's second visit to Somalia since he took power in 1986

holy shit, I thought Uganda had a functioning democracy but woooowwww, he's been in power in almost 25 years. Oh my godness. damn its time to feel good about my country, after all we do not have it that bad.

holy shit, I thought Uganda had a functioning democracy but woooowwww, he's been in power in almost 25 years. Oh my godness. damn its time to feel good about my country, after all we do not have it that bad.

You didn't know that?

The dude has been runing the show since 1986. And the sad thing is he still wants to run another term.:ohno:

holy shit, I thought Uganda had a functioning democracy but woooowwww, he's been in power in almost 25 years. Oh my godness. damn its time to feel good about my country, after all we do not have it that bad.


Mr.Djibouti
BANNED

Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1

lol nice try :lol:

holy shit, I thought Uganda had a functioning democracy but woooowwww, he's been in power in almost 25 years. Oh my godness. damn its time to feel good about my country, after all we do not have it that bad.

Compared to Uganda you do.:lol:

I respect this man! Unlike that pussy Zenawi this man can at least see his tasks face to face, Meles never visited Mogadishu, not since Siad Barre kicked him out of his apartment in the 80s.

This is a massive show of power by Museveni, I will not be surprised if the UN leaves him as the caretaker of Somalia in the future, it looks inevitable, and it will be good for both nations; Somalia gets stability and leadership, Uganda gets a long coastline to start businesses on the ports.

This man does not stop begging the West for money does he. He actually has no shame whatsoever, he actually thinks he will single handily resolve the Somali situation with his heavy handed approach; he is trying to achieve something beyond his limitations. He also spoke about stopping piracy which doesn’t even plague South Somalia. Even Puntland are anti-AU.

All in all, the Ugandans are worsening the situation and increasing support for Al Shabab with their relentless shelling of Civilians, with each death of a civilian, his relatives joins Al Shabab

Lame,ridiculous and outright absurd.Ugandan peacekeepers in Somalia is an African Union mandate.

Lame,ridiculous and getting old.Its an African Union mandate.

Spin it as much as you want. Uganda is in Somalia for the money and they should be considered as “foreign merchants”. This man has no shame in begging, and it’s quite pathetic honestly

lol nice try :lol:

lol! :lol:
Would have been funney if he was in this argument though.......
How abouts next time he uses a more creative idea in trying to sneak past the mods lol? Try changing his name for example :) :bash:

As for the thread........ Kinda silly he only stayed for 4 hours. I was going to give him a pat on the back. I suppose if his presence had been known then he would have endangered people. However I suppose at least he's got the balls to stpe foot on that place. I think like Nomadic said, clueless as to the situation in Somalia and how to handel it. It's a difficult topic.
Personally, I think for now, the AU should push the rebels out of Mogadishu with some sort of modified mandate and that way take the violence away from civilian areas. That or take a hike. :)

Nomadic, what's your solution to Somalia? I'd like to genuinely hear this because you scoff at every viable answer. You're against AU policing, you're against giving concession to the militants and negotiating thereafter, you're against bolstering the TFG.

Your lack of answering this question leads me to believe you're just a teenager looking for an online fight rather than for discussion.

Nomadic, what's your solution to Somalia? I'd like to genuinely hear this because you scoff at every viable answer. You're against AU policing, you're against giving concession to the militants and negotiating thereafter, you're against bolstering the TFG.

Your lack of answering this question leads me to believe you're just a teenager looking for an online fight rather than for discussion.

Like I said, it’s an internal issue which can only be solved internally. I really don’t understand the audacity these Ugandans really have. This is long going civil war which couldn’t have been stopped by Americans and USA back Ethiopians, yet Ugandans who constantly beg money to fight will somehow resolve the situation.

It’s quite laughable and painfully pathetic.


I have said that TFG should negotiate with both clan elders and Al Shabab, numerous times,

TFG and Sharif have said that they willingly to implement Sharia Law, which could easily be the starting point of the negotiations


Overall within getting into in-depth detail, I would say tribal federalism with Sharia Law should be the way forward for Somalia.

Spin it as much as you want. Uganda is in Somalia for the money and they should be considered as “foreign merchants”. This man has no shame in begging, and it’s quite pathetic honestly
The money they are asking for, is for the AU mission. They dont gain anything from the US for this. I believe that they are getting a few thumbs up for this. For example they managed to pretty much silence the UN on their findings with DRC crimes. But if you can point out any source that shows us that Uganda is gaining anything from the US because of these peace missions then I will believe you.
As for the begging thing. Do you think Uganda should be wasting millions of their own money to send troops off to go die for Somalia's benefit? Well wht they see as Somalia's benefit?

The money they are asking for, is for the AU mission. They dont gain anything from the US for this. I believe that they are getting a few thumbs up for this. For example they managed to pretty much silence the UN on their findings with DRC crimes. But if you can point out any source that shows us that Uganda is gaining anything from the US because of these peace missions then I will believe you.
As for the begging thing. Do you think Uganda should be wasting millions of their own money to send troops off to go die for Somalia's benefit? Well wht they see as Somalia's benefit?
Uganda is being funded according to their mandate sufficiently, what he is doing is asking for more money and more troops. He is practically begging.

Again, he talks about mobilizing 3 million men. You need to understand each of these soldiers get paid well compared to the average African wage and most of this money they make in Somalia will go back to Uganda.

Ugandans in Iraq, bring home an estimated 100 million a year. They want to do the same with Somalia, it all about making money; no one actually cares about this so called mandate

So far these so called peacekeepers who have committed genocide in the Congo’s have worsen the situation in Somalia and strengthen Al Shabab supporters’ base.

Stay in Uganda

The money they are asking for, is for the AU mission. They dont gain anything from the US for this.

Who do you think pays for AU missions? Master US.

The name is AU, the bank is US, interests US and Museveni, clean up Job is Ugandan soldiers.

The US and EU pays all the bills.

Who do you think pays for AU missions? Master US.

The name is AU, the bank is US, interests US and Museveni, clean up Job is Ugandan soldiers.

The US and EU pays all the bills.

Those are dangerous allegations,do you have any proof?

Those are dangerous allegations,do you have any proof?

They are facts.

What interests does Uganda has in Somalia (Other than Museveni's personal interests)?

If the country can't even lift it own soldiers into Somalia, if it can't supply themselves for this operation.

Then what makes you think it isn't true?

Ask Kihihi who is paying for the operations.

Who do you think pays for AU missions? Master US.

The name is AU, the bank is US, interests US and Museveni, clean up Job is Ugandan soldiers.

The US and EU pays all the bills.
Like I said Uganda doesnt gain anything?

@Nomadic: Ugandan soldiers are some of the worst paid troops in East Africa. You get bonus for going on peace missions but then let's remember you are being shot at. Also Ugandans get payed by the Ugandan government. Museveni is asking for the logistics and equipment such as the Mamba's and Buffels. Thats where the money goes. Not wages.
I agree he sounds like a looney when he says he can mobilise 3 million men. Only one NATO member can beat that. Guess who........ :lol:

They are facts.

What interests does Uganda has in Somalia (Other than Museveni's personal interests)?

If the country can't even lift it own soldiers into Somalia, if it can't supply themselves for this operation.

Then what makes you think it isn't true?

Ask Kihihi who is paying for the operations.

He asked for proof not theories. :)

Those are dangerous allegations,do you have any proof?

I have posted that before on other thread regarding AU mission in Somalia.

He asked for proof not theories. :)

Thanks.:)Butembo....

I have posted that before on other thread regarding AU mission in Somalia.

The onus is on you to find it,as for now its just a theory,a ridiculous one.:)

Like I said, it’s an internal issue which can only be solved internally. I really don’t understand the audacity these Ugandans really have. This is long going civil war which couldn’t have been stopped by Americans and USA back Ethiopians, yet Ugandans who constantly beg money to fight will somehow resolve the situation.

It’s quite laughable and painfully pathetic.


I have said that TFG should negotiate with both clan elders and Al Shabab, numerous times,

TFG and Sharif have said that they willingly to implement Sharia Law, which could easily be the starting point of the negotiations


Overall within getting into in-depth detail, I would say tribal federalism with Sharia Law should be the way forward for Somalia.

+1

Don't waste your time with some people here. They only see things from one side.

+1

Don't waste your time with some people here. They only see things from one side.

No ones argueing with that. I think it's a good idea, I would rather see how the AU turns out first then go onto that or just let Al-Shabaab take over the country. Janub thinks Uganda playing tough is a good idea. And he is entitled to do so. Just because he disagrees with you does not mean he/she can not be convinced?

Those are dangerous allegations,do you have any proof?




He asked for proof not theories. :)



A nation doesn't have enough resources to secure it own home. How will it find resources to secure someone else?

No theories, but Facts.




AFRICOM: NATO provides airlift support to African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM)

NATO airlifts African Union troops into Somalia
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2739/4456994580_99f1817cbf_z.jpg?zz=1

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2790/4456994576_c0a9d336b5_z.jpg?zz=1
Under the NATO banner, the United States airlifted 1 700 troops from Uganda into Mogadishu and re-deployed 850 Ugandan troops out of Mogadishu that are part of the African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM). The airlift, which commenced on 5 March 2010, was completed on 16 March 2010. Upon the request of the African Union for strategic airlift support for its mission in Somalia, NATO began providing this support in June 2007.



http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-524C9839-D507B218/natolive/news_62241.htm





Uganda seeks US military aid.

Last Updated: Wednesday, 3 September, 2003, 13:45 GMT 14:45 UK

Uganda wants the US to provide more logistical and intelligence support
Uganda has asked the United States for military assistance in its fight against the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) rebels.

An advisor to the Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni told BBC News Online that the call was made in the spirit of the continuing global war against terrorism, as the LRA is on the US list of terror groups.

But John Nagenda is emphatic that Uganda was not asking the US to send in troops to northern and eastern Uganda where the fighting is concentrated.

The Ugandan army has been fighting the LRA in northern Uganda since 1988, since when hundreds of thousands of people have been either displaced, maimed or killed.

The LRA often mutilates civilians and abducts children to either become fighters or sex slaves.

Terror money

"What we are asking the US to do is to provide us with logistical support and intelligence information," Mr Nagenda said.

"We have enough of our own soldiers to do the job."

LRA victim
The rebels chop off noses and ears

The US Government classified the LRA as a terror group shortly after the 11 September 2001 attacks in the US.

During his July 2003 tour of Africa, US President George W Bush warned that terrorists would not be permitted to operate out of the continent and pledged $150m to help African countries fight terror.

"Part of that money could be used to buy better armaments for the Uganda army," said Mr Nagenda.

Donor interference

The presidential advisor says that the call does not mean that the Ugandan army is unable to defeat the LRA rebels.

"Our greatest problem is that donors interfere with our budget by insisting that we should not spend more than 2% of our budget on defence," he said.

Joseph Kony (r)
Uganda claims Joseph Kony (r) has crossed back into Sudan

He says that no country at war should be placed under such a condition.

Uganda recently accused neighbouring Sudan of supplying arms to the LRA rebels.

It also claimed that LRA leader Joseph Kony had finally crossed back into southern Sudan via the northern Ugandan town of Gulu to acquire more supplies. But the Sudanese Government denied the charges, saying that it had presented a comprehensive report to the Ugandan leader, showing Sudan was not providing weapons to the LRA rebels.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3077810.stm

Like I said Uganda doesnt gain anything?

@Nomadic: Ugandan soldiers are some of the worst paid troops in East Africa. You get bonus for going on peace missions but then let's remember you are being shot at. Also Ugandans get payed by the Ugandan government. Museveni is asking for the logistics and equipment such as the Mamba's and Buffels. Thats where the money goes. Not wages.
I agree he sounds like a looney when he says he can mobilise 3 million men. Only one NATO member can beat that. Guess who........ :lol:

So, why has Uganda been asking for military aid from master US to fight LRA?

Where will get money to fly it own soldiers 1000s of kms away?

Let alone operation once on the ground.(No operations anyways, all they do is be body guard for the Transitional Government that doesn't even control half the destroyed city:lol: )

The Ugandan report was 2003? However recent additional help has been given by the US against the LRA. However links are yet to be made between the US helping a key ally (and oil producer) and the AMISOM mission.
Algeria also airlifted troops. Not really pro-NATO. One of the only nations in NE.Africa that wont accept US help to fight its insurgency there. Also NATO airlifts only show how the US is helping Uganda with logistics and technicalities like that. If they werent going to Somalia they wouldnt need tht assistance in the first place?

So, why has Uganda been asking for military aid from master US to fight LRA?

Where will get money to fly it own soldiers 1000s of kms away?

Let alone operation once on the ground.(No operations anyways, all they do is be body guard for the Transitional Government that doesn't even control half the destroyed city:lol: )If it was a US controlled operation then I doubt they would just be doing body guard actions? OOops theres me giving theories. :lol:
As for help with the LRA, a stable Uganda perhaps for future oil help? There could be hundreds of reasons why the US is helping Uganda. Why do you think it is because of AMISOM? Could it just be because the US doesnt want Uganda to be bogged down by some guy who mutilates and kills people so that he can be moses, and enforce the 10 commandments?

NATO airlifting Peacekeepers to a troubled region is what they do since they are a security organization.Uganda is putting their soldiers in the frontlines because they pledged to the AU to do just that.Others who pledged soldiers failed Somalia and Africa.Others stabbed the region in the back in regards to the Nile therefore they should keep their opinions to themselves since they cant be trusted to pursue a regional agenda.

So, why has Uganda been asking for military aid from master US to fight LRA?

Where will get money to fly it own soldiers 1000s of kms away?

Let alone operation once on the ground.(No operations anyways, all they do is be body guard for the Transitional Government that doesn't even control half the destroyed city:lol: )

The USA.You just answered your own question.:lol:

NATO airlifting Peacekeepers to a troubled region is what they do since they are a security organization.Uganda is putting their soldiers in the frontlines because they pledged to the AU to do just that.Others who pledged soldiers failed Somalia and Africa.Others stabbed the region in the back in regards to the Nile therefore they should keep their opinions to themselves since they cant be trusted to pursue a regional agenda.

What a retarded post,

So a Congolese should keep their opinions to themselves because they didn’t sign that fake Nile agreement. What a complete and utter joke, :lol:

If it was a US controlled operation then I doubt they would just be doing body guard actions? OOops theres me giving theories. :lol:

You still haven't answered the question. Where would Uganda get the money to be in Somalia, when it can't even airlift it own soldiers?


Just answer the question. will you?

As for help with the LRA, a stable Uganda perhaps for future oil help? There could be hundreds of reasons why the US is helping Uganda. Why do you think it is because of AMISOM? Could it just be because the US doesnt want Uganda to be bogged down by some guy who mutilates and kills people so that he can be moses, and enforce the 10 commandments?

Uganda received money from US before Oil was even discovered. it goes back since Museveni has been in power. But it increased when Oil made the news.:lol:. You know Bush made visits to Uganda. Oil is sweet.:). LRA must be made history because the Oil fields are in the north west near LRA's former strong holds and only uncle can do that. It could have been done long ago. But Oil made news got things done.

Again. No theories, but Facts.

The USA.You just answered your own question.:lol:
You wanted proof? You got proof that Uganda has nothing to spend on airlifting it own soldiers, let alone being a a neighborhood guards for a group of jokers called transitional government.

:lol:.

What a retarded post,

So a Congolese should keep their opinions to themselves because they didn’t sign that fake Nile agreement. What a complete and utter joke, :lol:

That what happens when the truths floods the public , doesn't have anything to say anymore, so better to switch the topic to Nile issues, something that DRC has nothing to do with.:lol:

What a retarded post,

So a Congolese should keep their opinions to themselves because they didn’t sign that fake Nile agreement. What a complete and utter joke,

Why is it fake?Another way of undermining Ethiopia?Butembo is a joke,thats why he should keep his opinions to himself.Like you,he takes every chance to vilify Uganda or Rwanda and Ethiopia in your case,you have lost all credence to your arguments.Alshabaab is a regional threat,hence why Butembo will not understand the role of Uganda in Somalia for many reasons.

You wanted proof? You got proof that Uganda has nothing to spend on airlifting it own soldiers, let alone being a a neighborhood guards for a group of jokers called transitional government.

:lol:.

English giving you a hard time again?I wanted proof on how America and Museveni will gain by sending peacekeepers there? This are your own words..

They are facts.

What interests does Uganda has in Somalia (Other than Museveni's personal interests)?

Why is it fake?Another way of undermining Ethiopia?Butembo is a joke,thats why he should keep his opinions to himself.Like you,he takes every chance to vilify Uganda or Rwanda and Ethiopia in your case,you have lost all credence to your arguments.Alshabaab is a regional threat,hence why Butembo will not understand the role of Uganda in Somalia for many reasons.

BUTEMBO21 has displayed and showed his depth of knowledge in African politics, he is undoubtedly one the smartest posters here, He knows much more about Somalia than most other people here.

Somali civil war has never spilled over the borders until foreign intervention and that’s a fact. Somalia regardless of it’s political situation has zero bearing on Uganda. Uganda shouldn't involve itself with Somalia, should have followed Kenya's lead

BUTEMBO21 has displayed and showed his depth of knowledge in African politics, he is undoubtedly one the smartest posters here, He knows much more about Somalia than most other people here.

Somali civil war has never spilled over the borders until foreign intervention and that’s a fact. Somalia regardless of it’s political situation has zero bearing on Uganda. Uganda shouldn't involve itself with Somalia, should have followed Kenya's lead

I am only highlighting his and his countrymens bias against any initiative that is Ugandan or Rwandan.I am sure he knows that Tanzania is the biggest donor recepient in East Africa,yet he rarely mentions this when he goes of on his ocassional 'super puppet' tirades.:|

I am only highlighting his and his countrymens bias against any initiative that is Ugandan or Rwandan.I am sure he knows that Tanzania is the biggest donor recepient in East Africa,yet he rarely mentions this when he goes of on his ocassional 'super puppet' tirades.:|

There is a complete difference between fighting someone else’s war and begging for money to receiving foreign aid :nuts:

Stop trying to act as if Ugandan or Rwandans are angels trying to save Mother Africa. These countries have shown that they are capable of heinous crimes within their land and in foreign countries such as Somalia and Congo

There is a complete difference between fighting someone else’s war and begging for money to receiving foreign aid :nuts:

Stop trying to act as if Ugandan or Rwandans are angels trying to save Mother Africa. These countries have shown that they are capable of heinous crimes within their land and in foreign countries such as Somalia and Congo

^^ It doesnt change the fact its an African Union mandate and not a global conspiracy against Somalis.:)

You still haven't answered the question. Where would Uganda get the money to be in Somalia, when it can't even airlift it own soldiers?


Just answer the question. will you?
sorry bout that. From the AU, US and other regions. It's wht the US does for every peace mission pretty much. Very few missions around the world would be able to operate without the US.



Uganda received money from US before Oil was even discovered. it goes back since Museveni has been in power. But it increased when Oil made the news.:lol:. You know Bush made visits to Uganda. Oil is sweet.:). LRA must be made history because the Oil fields are in the north west near LRA's former strong holds and only uncle can do that. It could have been done long ago. But Oil made news got things done.

Again. No theories, but Facts.
Fair enough. :)
bold

You wanted proof? You got proof that Uganda has nothing to spend on airlifting it own soldiers, let alone being a a neighborhood guards for a group of jokers called transitional government.

:lol:.
I think your right BUtombo to the question we were asking. I think we were asking the wrong question. Anyways we want to know if the US is bankrolling the Ugandans. Paying for their mission is useless because if they werent on the mission then they woulnt need the assistance. Also they hve to pay the bonus for Ugandan troops on peace missions. So if anything they are loosing money for this mission. I want proof that the US is giving money to the Ugandan gov that doesnt involve support for AMISOM please. If you agree with me then sorry for wasting your time like that

Who really cares? Does it change anything? No. :dunno:

I found this on another forum, a guy compared Somalia to feudal Japan during the Sengoku Jidai period.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Azuchimomoyama-japan.png/621px-Azuchimomoyama-japan.png


Here's some background on the comparisons he gave:

The Somali civil war seems to be following the exact route that Feudal Japan took to reunification...

1) Central Power (Ashikaga Shogunate, Siad Barre's government) becomes a joke as the powerful clans of the country arm themselves.
2) The most powerful clans in the country duke it out in an enormously bloody conflict that destroys all governing order in the country (Ōnin War, Somalia 1991-1993), the country becomes a seething mass of killing, looting and destruction.
3) The powerful clan factions turn on each other, and tear the country into a million pieces. Military warlords overthrow the "legitimate" aristocracy (Gekokujō, Somalia 1993-2000)
4) Religious groups attempt to establish some order and law (Ikkō-ikki, Islamic Courts), inevitably they are driven to establish a theocratic administration.
5) The most powerful groups begin conquering their weaker neighbors and establish regional hegemonic states. The most powerful amongst them begins conquering the other states one by one until there are only a handful of very powerful states left in the country.
6) The most powerful group begins conquering all the others. <--- Somalia is here

The similarities are mind boggling, even the maps are identical.

One fragmentated country will resemble another fragmentated country, regardless of timeperiod, these are basic patterns your seeing, someone in Feudal Japan probably could make the same comparison with the Warring States period of China two thousand years before. Unlike Somalia, the Pre-Meji Japanese realm did not have to endure continues meddling and interventions from Qing China, or the British Empire/America/Soviet Union whenever a strong Japanese power attempted to incorporate other Japanese territories, they were isolated.

If you look from a historic persepective, the Japanese smelled the Colonialists coming and made the right alliances; up and coming America, which recently freed itself from Britain, and strongly believed in self determination for other countries at the time. They supplied the Japanese with modern weapons and spearheaded economic reforms. In our case the Dervish had the military hardware and the manpower to carve out a strong Somali State (which they did) and held the colonial powers at bay for a quarter of a century, but in the end their alliance with the Central powers aka "the losers of WW I" resulted in what would have been a natural case of Somali nation building being destroyed by British Airplanes, same again with the Ogaden War and the gigantic Soviet intervention, and today America & Co. seem to be hell bend on thwarting any Somali attempt to reconcile within themselves for the silliest reasons. The UN embargo on arms also served to keep a stalemate between the warlords, though that was rendered obsolete post-2006, the reason for all of this is quite obvious.

Also if the British had given China and Korea parts of the Japanese archipelago, that place today would be a heavily militarised region resembling North Korea. The Somali situation and historical experience is therefore quite different.

The way I see it; as Al-Shabab's economic profits from the farms and the ports of the South increase, their rhetoric and draconian rules will mellow out, and eventually something similar to the Islamic Courts will form. Right now their survival seems to be economically dependent on foreign sources. The new cabinet of the TFG in my opinion is impressive, not a single warlord in it, instead actual educated and qualified Somalis are part of it. I would like to see Al-Shabab and TFG sitting down together, with both agreeing to purge out all foreign influences and form a national government. As for the others; Somaliland is the gem of the region with its progressive political culture, something Puntland is emulating by recently approving a multi-party system, which is why I share Xusein's sentiment and hope Galmudug remains a strong buffer.

One thing is certain though, Somalia when it comes out of this rut will be much more robust politically, socially and economically than pre-91'.

I think Sharif needs to step down, he has become as poisonous as AY as far as negotiation with the Islamists. His mandate has failed. Even with this relatively clean "government", his presence has ruined everything.

He needs to go into the sunset...his disappointing attitude let down millions and he can't recover.

The only solution that can come out for Southern Somalia I believe is a power-sharing deal. Of course this probably not happen.

I think your right BUtombo to the question we were asking. I think we were asking the wrong question. Anyways we want to know if the US is bankrolling the Ugandans. Paying for their mission is useless because if they werent on the mission then they woulnt need the assistance. Also they hve to pay the bonus for Ugandan troops on peace missions. So if anything they are loosing money for this mission. I want proof that the US is giving money to the Ugandan gov that doesnt involve support for AMISOM please. If you agree with me then sorry for wasting your time like that

I have proven that Uganda's military depends on US aid. You keep refuting that.

Besides. All these peacakeeping missions (In Sudan, in Somalia, in Burundi, in DRC , Tchad). are being sponsored by US and EU. who make the UN money banks. The likes of Uganda, Burundi etc... are too poor to pay for Logistics of their troops, let alone operations, when they can't even pay for their country's problems.

You can believe what you want, but facts are in front of you.

I have proven that Uganda's military depends on US aid. You keep refuting that.

Besides. All these peacakeeping missions (In Sudan, in Somalia, in Burundi, in DRC , Tchad). are being sponsored by US and EU. who make the UN money banks. The likes of Uganda, Burundi etc... are too poor to pay for Logistics of their troops, let alone operations, when they can't even pay for their country's problems.

You can believe what you want, but facts are in front of you.

Oh sorry BUTOMBO. I see what you are saying now. You are saying that Uganda's military is dependant on the US. Oh ok. Well I would have to say no really. Did quite well in the congolese wars before bringing in the militias. Struggled with the LRA but then anyone would with such a brutal opponent. It was a troubled country. I suppose nowadays it relies on the US a lot. I think one of the key factors however in pushing back the LRA recently was the cooperation of states in that area. So yeah, go on, I agree with you :)

One thing is certain though, Somalia when it comes out of this rut will be much more robust politically, socially and economically than pre-91'.

I solidly agree with this. A comparison I've always made was the region of Palestine (today's Israel) before and after Jewish exodus. When the Jews returned to occupy the region they brought with them lessons, hardships, intelligence, and skills that transformed the place and turned arid pieces of land into economic hubs and forged connections with the outside world on a new scale and relatively quickly. Somalia will basically be a clean slate for returning diaspora to forge new identities and wealth within a nation that's never been tapped for resources. The few and the brave who return will instantly become rich while transforming the land.

can one really justify this so called non-interference in another person's internal affairs? Even on humanitarian grounds, don't we all realise that Somalia needs help from itself? Uganda and Rwanda are doing a good thing irrespective what anyone would say. Al-shabbab and other sundry groups that are deaf and dumb and only understand the language of AK47 must be resisted in every frontier. If Museveni has understood this and is resisting the evil ideaology behind the al-shabbab group, I say ride up !

Why is it fake?Another way of undermining Ethiopia?
Of course it is, pathetic.

Butembo, I believe that your view on Somalia would had been extremely different if Congo was located in the Horn/East Africa.

^^Yeah because Somalia is somekind of a Behemoth wishing destruction upon the entire region, right? This regional threat nonsense is a reality imposed on Somalia, it's this specific country who has lost the most as a result of regional and foreign meddling, and it pisses me off when I see intellectually bankrupt individuals act like Somalis' sole wish is spreading carnage and mayhem, such utter rubbish. Two decades of Anarchy in the South of the country and the only example of a violent attack outside its borders are the Kampala bombings where 80+ people died compare this to the 25000 + dead Somali civilians as a result of foreign interventions, regional threat my ass!:bash:

As for Butembo, the guy is spot on, even the topic starter admitted Uganda's real reason for acting as cannon fodder on a different topic:

It seems most people do not realize the benefits to the countries that send troops to somalia and i don't see how the harm outweighs the benefits of the mission to such countries.
Firstly armies that send troops to Somalia get brand new equipment free of charge thus a portion of their budgets spent on the military is reduced and the saved funds can be redirected to other development projects in their countries i.e roads, schools,hospitals.

Secondly, the salaries of soldiers in somalia far outweigh the salaries then earn in their countries thus the extra money is remitted back to their families and helps their welfare.i.e In uganda the salary of a private is 100$ per month while in somalia they earn extra allowances of 750$ per month. If he dies in somalia his family is given 50,000$ in compensation while if he died in central african republic fighting LRA rebels his family would have got 500$ in compensation.

Thirdly the ugandan army gets free specialized training to improve the abilities of their soldiers something that would have cost more money i the used their own resources.

Fourthly, Due to Uganda's contribution in somalia a major UN bases supposed to serve peacekeepers around Africa is to be built in uganda. It will house up to 50,000 peacekeepers at one time and has a budget of 5 billion dollars annually a portion of which will be pumped into the Ugandan economy annually boosting it tremendously. It is similar to how the large american bases around the world pump money into the local economy.

Now sincerely tell me why any serious leadership in Africa that wants its country to develop should fore go such benefits? May because Somalia can not be conquered, al shabaab will send us suicide bombers?

WE ARE TO POOR GIVE A FUCK,SOMALIS SHOULD KEEP SUCH THREATS TO RICH COUNTRIES.

^African Brotherhood in action :banana:

^^Yeah because Somalia is somekind of a Behemoth wishing destruction upon the entire region, right?
You took it the wrong way. If the Wahhabi missionaries take full control of the country, it could (most likely) be a very dangerous situation in the region. A Somalia that's not influenced by foreign extremism would probably not be a threat to the region.

Constantine MMX, saaxiib, I think it's fruitless to really explain the situation in Somalia to some here except in the black/white simplification views, I've tried many times without avail...if they think backing up a corpse of a government and continuing the bloodshed in Somalia with a foreign "peacekeepers" is the way to "fix" Somalia, so be it.

History has blown this idea out of the water to be false numerous times, but we can't force people to change their minds.

Yonii, maybe one has to take a deep look at the region and analyse the real threat that has been transparent for the last decade, process where lives have been lost the most, where international justice has been violated with impunity the most and then come back and try to convince me the Somali situation is such a paramount threat that one needs to intervene.

Xusein sxbow, you're correct, its futile, some here have played to much Call of Duty and think war is a game, and Somalia is somekind of a walk in the park, yet it always boomerangs back in their face, and you would then think there was an important lesson learned, but a few years later some other confused characters will show their thirst for Somali blood by hiding behind terms like ideology, regional threat and other nonsense covering their real intentions.

When you point out what gave power to groups like Al-Shabab in the first place, you are accused of "blaming it on the foreigners". How convenient.

Lots of ill-will for this country, so those appeals for useless interventions shouldn't come as a surprise.

Butembo, I believe that your view on Somalia would had been extremely different if Congo was located in the Horn/East Africa.

What are you trying to say? Did i say something you disaprove of?

My argument has been about Uganda doing the dirty job fo it masters. and US is the one that pays the bills. Whilst Museveni is the one making profits whilst Uganda are being punished because of it government.

Unless you have something that you view differently. Then spit it out. I don't speak on emotions, but facts.

^^Yeah because Somalia is somekind of a Behemoth wishing destruction upon the entire region, right? This regional threat nonsense is a reality imposed on Somalia, it's this specific country who has lost the most as a result of regional and foreign meddling, and it pisses me off when I see intellectually bankrupt individuals act like Somalis' sole wish is spreading carnage and mayhem, such utter rubbish. Two decades of Anarchy in the South of the country and the only example of a violent attack outside its borders are the Kampala bombings where 80+ people died compare this to the 25000 + dead Somali civilians as a result of foreign interventions, regional threat my ass!:bash:

As for Butembo, the guy is spot on, even the topic starter admitted Uganda's real reason for acting as cannon fodder on a different topic:



^African Brotherhood in action :banana:


:lol::lol:

Everyone knows what is up, but there are some who would like to deny everything

Merged this and the other thread of Somali politics together.

Seems better to have the threads together since they overlap obviously.

Butembo's hatred for peacekeeping is horrifying.

Of course it is, pathetic.

Butembo, I believe that your view on Somalia would had been extremely different if Congo was located in the Horn/East Africa.

Somalis issues would have never left its borders if it wasn't for foreign interference. I can count on one hand the amount of times Somalis have done a massive bombing outside of its borders in the decades it has been in war.

All Somalis know this and a few non Somalis. Everyone else prefer to delude themselves into thinking that bringing even more foreigners to Somalia will somehow "fix things" :ohno:

Butembo's hatred for peacekeeping is horrifying.

Let those in AU "peace keep" somewhere else. Somalia doesn't want or need them or their meddling.

i seriously commend Uganda's efforts.

i seriously commend Uganda's efforts.

:lol:

Then you are one of the few. I think Uganda is pathetic and stupid to do this.

for using it's resources to bring peace to a troubled neighbor?
you guys may like politics and all, it's fun when you forget that people are dying for reasons not worth a human life. this isn't a video game, this is real life, and the efforts of any group of people the end the killing of another group should be commended. I don't care is satan bankrolls it, and there's nobody with the courage to stand up to the problem.


Nigeria has declared that when the UN allows peacekeepers to fire back if shot at they're going in full force because they want to focus on peace enforcement not just peace keeping.

Another spin in the Somali saga - Al-Shabaab begins to train female brigade.

Hundreds of Somali women are recruited and trained in the southern port city of Kismayo by the al-Shabaab, a Somali insurgent faction embracing a radical form of Islam similar to the harsh, conservative brand practiced by Afghanistan's Taliban regime, Radio Garowe Reports.

Garowe Online received reports that indicate the trainers which were approximately 150 soldiers were matching in the street of Kismayo with AK47 on Saturday.

“The recruiters were teenagers who need to be trained more, so that they participate fighting against our enemies [AMISOM] because every Muslim is must join the jihad [holy war],” said Al-Shabaab leader in Kismayo, Sheikh Hassan Yaqub.

Al-Shabbab has increased its territorial control to much of central and southern Somalia and is stepping up recruitment of foreign jihadists.

The UN reported that the extremist Islamist group generally doesn't recruit girls for combat roles, but does use them to carry out tasks like cooking, cleaning, transporting detonators, and collecting intelligence. The report identified an al-Shabaab training camp near the southern city of Kismayo, where about 120 girls learned intelligence-gathering techniques and how to transport explosives and drive. Some of the girls were also recruited to marry the male fighters.

The Horn of Africa nation is turning out to be an al-Qaeda safe haven, with terrorist-linked groups like al-Shabaab controlling large swaths of southern and central regions and waging deadly insurgency against the UN-backed Somali government. Along with other insurgent groups such as Hisbul Islam, al-Shabaab has trapped the country's UN- and U.S.-backed Transitional Federal Government into a small part of Mogadishu, the Somali capital.

Nigeria has declared that when the UN allows peacekeepers to fire back if shot at they're going in full force because they want to focus on peace enforcement not just peace keeping.I truely love Nigeria. :)
It's shown the world that peace making can work with the likes of ECOMOG. Imagine a UN mission took it's place before the Nigerians went in...... they didnt even want to go in till ECOMOG had calmed the place down. Bring on the Nigerians! :cheers: :banana:

Only problem is that Freetown isn't Mogadishu. Its quite easy to flex your muscles against tame Sierra Leone rebel bands, try that wild west stuff in Somalia and see the how far it goes, I'm sure you Lord Ranger of all people should know how well that panned out. Only Uganda has so far shown willingness to venture into the lion's den. I lost hope that Somalia could be tamed when Ethiopia, which easily has the best military history in Africa, could not do the job, I'm not confident Uganda or anyone could pull it off at this stage, maybe send NATO in and see how that works out, nothing less will cut it.

not in the end of the day you need to send in african forces because africans know how to deal with africans


americans saw an american troop being dragged by a rope dead in the street and got cold feet. Africans wouldn't flinch.



Nigeria refuses to go under the UN banner because it's fighting to get the rules on engagement changed in the UN.

Sierra Leone and Liberia were calmed down because it was an african force playing by african rules and dealing with african people.

the UN rules of engagement don't make sense for any wartime setting especially an african one, Nigeria is therefore advocating what Goodluck Jonathan has called "Peace Enforcement" as opposed to "Peace Keeping"

not in the end of the day you need to send in african forces because africans know how to deal with africans


americans saw an american troop being dragged by a rope dead in the street and got cold feet. Africans wouldn't flinch.



Nigeria refuses to go under the UN banner because it's fighting to get the rules on engagement changed in the UN.

Sierra Leone and Liberia were calmed down because it was an african force playing by african rules and dealing with african people.

the UN rules of engagement don't make sense for any wartime setting especially an african one, Nigeria is therefore advocating what Goodluck Jonathan has called "Peace Enforcement" as opposed to "Peace Keeping"

:lol:

Delusion if I ever heard one.
Somalis know how to deal with other Somalis. Non Somalis will never have that same advantage

If somalians knew how to deal with somalians this thread wouldn't exist.

If somalians knew how to deal with somalians this thread wouldn't exist.

It is precisely because of this delusion it exists, foreign interference and the foolish thought that somehow getting unwanted soldiers on Somali soil will fix it when all it has done is exacerbate problems. Perhaps if everyone understood from the beginning, this thread would not exist

Uganda will fail, as Ethiopia did and as US previously did as well.

It is precisely because of this delusion it exists, foreign interference and the foolish thought that somehow getting unwanted soldiers on Somali soil will fix it when all it has done is exacerbate problems. Perhaps if everyone understood from the beginning, this thread would not exist

Uganda will fail, as Ethiopia did and as US previously did as well.

+1

If somalians knew how to deal with somalians this thread wouldn't exist.

That's the truth. If not, A. the country wouldn't have collapsed to begin with, and B. The entire 90s (after US left) and most of the 2000s, Somalians were left alone - where was this miraculous peace that supposedly happens with non-interference?

They did figure it out on their own, but the ideology was not palatable for outsiders.

They did figure it out on their own, but the ideology was not palatable for outsiders.

+1

They did figure it out on their own, but the ideology was not palatable for outsiders.

Becoming another Taliban-ruled Afghanistan is not a solution that a society heading in the right direction comes up with. That's replacing one type of cancer with another: at the end, it's still a cancer.

Yeah, that's why I said it wasn't palatable for outsiders. It was a solution but not the ones that was wanted by the West. Of course, pushing a pretty much non-existent government that has no legitimacy is just as foolish and dangerous but nobody will admit that.

Becoming another Taliban-ruled Afghanistan is not a solution that a society heading in the right direction comes up with. That's replacing one type of cancer with another: at the end, it's still a cancer.

Rubbish.

The Islamists in 06 were never as bad as people thought, the moderates had control and the public was willing to put up with some of the tough rules for the stability but it would have eventually turned over when peace happened and the populace wouldn't stand for the ban forever (No Samatar ever again? Wouldn't have happened)

But once again, foreigners went all moral on Somalia and overthrew their choice in Government and once again attempt to force on the country a board of crackpots and corrupt bastards who have no legitimacy or authority as if that will solve the issue. :ohno:

Rubbish.

The Islamists in 06 were never as bad as people thought, the moderates had control and the public was willing to put up with some of the tough rules for the stability but it would have eventually turned over when peace happened and the populace wouldn't stand for the ban forever (No Samatar ever again? Wouldn't have happened)

But once again, foreigners went all moral on Somalia and overthrew their choice in Government and once again attempt to force on the country a board of crackpots and corrupt bastards who have no legitimacy or authority as if that will solve the issue. :ohno:

So they would have accepted a government they didn't want, to then eventually throw them out too? To be replaced by whom? To me it seems like it would have gone back to where it was pre-UIC.
That still doesn't sound like it would have resulted in a sustainable solution.

That's the truth. If not, A. the country wouldn't have collapsed to begin with,

Plenty of countries collapsed or went through a crisis, the Ethiopian Civil War being the most vivid example, it claimed several million lives over the span of two decades, Somalia can't even touch that kind of bloodspilling and carnage, even with Anarchy having being omnipresent in the South for two decades.

Lets keep things in persepective.:)

and B. The entire 90s (after US left) and most of the 2000s, Somalians were left alone -

- Somaliland a region in Somalia the size of Eritrea and with a similar population was turned into a peaceful oasis during that time, BY SOMALIS

- Puntland a region in Somalia the size of Senegal and a population the size of Mauritania was turned into a stable region during that time, BY SOMALIS

- The South and other smaller regions were following this natural process, as one can see from the ICU period and the current Galmudug, again BY SOMALIS.

where was this miraculous peace that supposedly happens with non-interference?

You gotta be FREAKING kidding me :lol:, foreign meddling never stopped after the withdrawal of US/UN troops, there is an entire wiki article dedicated to America and its regional proxies destructive role (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Somalia). Mind you, your country's name is mentioned alot, I know you don't like the mention of Ethiopia, and get angry when it happens, but own up, that miraculous peace you are asking for did happen and we all know what particular event destroyed it.

If you prefer keeping those blinkers on, by all means do so, but your not going to fool us with this revisionistic history.

If somalians knew how to deal with somalians this thread wouldn't exist.

Lailax completely shut down your argument, but lets entertain it a little bit further; show me one example during the Civil strife where foreign intervention brought stability to Somalia?

-Anything comparable to Somali grassroots projects like Somaliland, Puntland, Galmudug and ICU pacification of the South that constitute 99% of the country?

- Billion dollar warships can't even stop young rag-tag pirates, compare this to Somalis completely shutting down their operations in 2006, before the illegal invasion.

These are massive examples of Somalis successfuly dealing with other Somalis and their problems, there is nothing comparable on the part of foreigners.

So they would have accepted a government they didn't want, to then eventually throw them out too? To be replaced by whom? To me it seems like it would have gone back to where it was pre-UIC.
That still doesn't sound like it would have resulted in a sustainable solution.

Who said anything about throw out?
I said reform quietly. It would have happened.

All that is necessary is the example of Somaliland to shut down any delusions by non Somalis that foreign interference is helpful. If Somaliland was invaded by Ethiopia, US, had foreign money from the beginning. We'd be in the same position as the South.

The Islamists in 2006 were the best solution for Mogadishu at the time. Other political movements at the time were permanently stained by their abuses in the war. The warlords were interested in keeping the status quo, leeching off the community while lying to the Westerners and Kenyans by holding peace talks that were never intended to actually bring peace.

I don't agree with everything that the Islamists did, but they were at least able to get rid of that warlord cancer, until Ethiopia and the US tried to put them back in. It's a shame that they prefer a warlord ravaged Somalia than a Islamist one.

Plenty of countries collapsed or went through a crisis, the Ethiopian Civil War being the most vivid example, it claimed several million lives over the span of two decades, Somalia can't even touch that kind of bloodspilling and carnage, even with Anarchy having being omnipresent in the South for two decades.

Lets keep things in persepective.:)

You are really grasping at straws. When exactly during the civil war did Ethiopia collapse and descend into complete and total anarchy??? The entire state aparatus in Somalia is non-existent and that certainly didn't happen next door.



- Somaliland a region in Somalia the size of Eritrea and with a similar population was turned into a peaceful oasis during that time, BY SOMALIS

- Puntland a region in Somalia the size of Senegal and a population the size of Mauritania was turned into a stable region during that time, BY SOMALIS

- The South and other smaller regions were following this natural process, as one can see from the ICU period and the current Galmudug, again BY SOMALIS.

Why didn't they band together as one country?



You gotta be FREAKING kidding me :lol:, foreign meddling never stopped after the withdrawal of US/UN troops, there is an entire wiki article dedicated to America and its regional proxies destructive role (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Somalia). Mind you, your country's name is mentioned alot, I know you don't like the mention of Ethiopia, and get angry when it happens, but own up, that miraculous peace you are asking for did happen and we all know what particular event destroyed it.

If you prefer keeping those blinkers on, by all means do so, but your not going to fool us with this revisionistic history.

Every country in the 3rd world deals with foreign meddling in their affairs yet Somalia is the ONLY one that collapses and stays collapsed. Why is that?

There's nothing revisionist about this. The reality is that Somalis are not willing to work together; if they were Somaliland + Puntland could have stabilized the rest of the country. That didn't happen did it. It's every man for himself.

Blame it on Ethiopia if you like, but your country will NEVER EVER solve its issues if you are always looking to blame outsiders for your problems. Only YOU can assert control over what happens there as you guys keep repeating here, but you are not doing the necessary work for that. You have to own your internal problems first and accept that if foreigners are meddling to the point you are left on your knees, it's because you let them get to you.

There's nothing revisionist about this. The reality is that Somalis are not willing to work together; if they were Somaliland + Puntland could have stabilized the rest of the country. That didn't happen did it. It's every man for himself.

Blame it on Ethiopia if you like, but your country will NEVER EVER solve its issues if you are always looking to blame outsiders for your problems. Only YOU can assert control over what happens there as you guys keep repeating here, but you are not doing the necessary work for that. You have to own your internal problems first and accept that if foreigners are meddling to the point you are left on your knees, it's because you let them get to you.

Fucking bullshit. The existence of Somaliland proves difference. Somalis are more likely than any other EA country to have a proper democracy unlike the joke of elections next to Somaliland.

Somalis can work together as much anyone else. How else did Somaliland get itself sorted? By our traditional means of compromise and negotiation.

I am so sick and tired of hearing from Non Somalis who come from countries that helped fuck up Somalia attempt to shift all the blame on Somalis after whining about the result because of the inability to admit mistakes and then have those same countries have the nerve to tell Somalis what they need to do.
All Somalis know we need to fix our own backyard with hopefully one day Somaliland and Puntland playing a role. But it won't happen as long as foreign countries seek to use Somalia

No one in Somalia wants foreigner in our land, we don't WANT your help in our Governance. But somehow the rest of the world seems physically incapable of getting that through their head and support of warlords, corrupt tinpot Governments. When we actually choose Islamists who (shock horror, actually stabilise the Capital). Ethiopia doesn't like that, oh no. So it has to try and get back the warlords and then seems shocked, shocked I tell when Somalis turn on them as the invaders and Islamists are strengthened :ohno:

abesha:

Just because we bring up the foreign interference doesn't mean that we do not blame Somalis themselves for their current situation. I think you need to stop using this idea that we think this, it's wrong and misleading. Somalia went to war because of simmering disputes created by the dictator that erupted when he was ousted.

I think foreign assistance if done right could help Somalia get back on it's feet, obviously we all live in the same world and nobody develops on their own. More in the form of advisers though, not troops. But this kind of foreign assistance is extending the conflict. The world is supporting a corpse. There is no real aim or strategy except "lets kill the terrorists". Somalia has been at war for 22 years and Islamism has only been a part of it, and the wounds that created the war from the beginning is not even attempted to be healed by anyone.

I've noticed a habit by somalis to blame 'outsiders' for they countries problems. Your country was united for maybe a decade, on the decade it was a brutal islamist regime that started attacking it's neighbors

for the rest of history your country has been in a total and complete state of war and chaos and is the only country the world over feels comfortable calling a failed state. Obviously the somali's dont know how to solve their problems.


foreign intervention didn't make anything 'worst', your country has a culture geared more for killing and carnage then actual rational development.

Your people have has centuries to get it right and haven't, the rest of the world is tired of having their citizens killed, their borders flooded with refugees, their continent embarrassed, their trade diminished, and now their building bombed all for and from a country that is build specifically for failure and conflict.


tuyb4aFbreo
^Look at the somali parliment :ohno:. What foreigner caused that disaster?

That's the truth. If not, A. the country wouldn't have collapsed to begin with, and B. The entire 90s (after US left) and most of the 2000s, Somalians were left alone - where was this miraculous peace that supposedly happens with non-interference?
thank you. this pathetic scapegoating of foreigners needs to stop. Somalis caused the problem, somalis prolonged the problem, somalis benefit for the problem, somalis are the problem. Should the world cry for you because it was tired of watching you generation of your youth go uneducated, get kidnapped, raped, tortured, and wake up to gun shots everyday?


They did figure it out on their own, but the ideology was not palatable for outsiders.
because when they 'figured it out' they turned their guns on outsiders instead of putting the guns down in general.

I've noticed a habit by somalis to blame 'outsiders' for they countries problems. Your country was united for maybe a decade, on the decade it was a brutal islamist regime that started attacking it's neighbors


Incorrect.
We highlight foreign interference as a factor whenever it comes up (i.e. whenever foreigners wish to send more soldiers into Somalia somehow thinking it will fix it) but Somalis are ultimately to blame but one cannot expect Somalis to fix it with foreign countries who are unwanted butting their nose in.

And the fact you think this is Somali culture just speaks for itself. You have no knowledge of Somalia and Somalis history or culture. So I'll just take your opinion with a grain of salt :ohno:

I've noticed a habit by somalis to blame 'outsiders' for they countries problems. Your country was united for maybe a decade, on the decade it was a brutal islamist regime that started attacking it's neighbors
.

:lol::lol:

I stopped reading here,

What a pathetic attempt for a rebuttal honestly, at least make sure your facts are correct

and i don't for one minute by this 'foreigners won't survive' in somali chest puffing a lot of somalis are doing. The ethiopian army annihilated anything that stood in its way somali's called opposition and achieved its military goals, it just couldn't ensure peace because somali's started blaming ethiopia for its problems

Fucking bullshit. The existence of Somaliland proves difference. Somalis are more likely than any other EA country to have a proper democracy unlike the joke of elections next to Somaliland.

Somalis can work together as much anyone else. How else did Somaliland get itself sorted? By our traditional means of compromise and negotiation.

Let me rephrase: I don't think Somalis are ready to work as one Somalia. I don't see that materializing any time soon.

No one in Somalia wants foreigner in our land, we don't WANT your help in our Governance. But somehow the rest of the world seems physically incapable of getting that through their head and support of warlords, corrupt tinpot Governments. When we actually choose Islamists who (shock horror, actually stabilise the Capital). Ethiopia doesn't like that, oh no. So it has to try and get back the warlords and then seems shocked, shocked I tell when Somalis turn on them as the invaders and Islamists are strengthened :ohno:

It's fantasy to expect the entire planet to wash their hands of the Somalia issue. Countries are dealing with hundreds of thousands of refugees from there, the piracy in the seas is disturbing trade, etc. Look at what's posted in the other thread; even Kenya and Tanzania, who stayed out of the issue til now, are being dragged in it because even their economies are starting to be affected by this.

Neighboring countries have even more at stake than other countries because whatever happens there also has an effect on us. We cannot be expected to ignore that.

If there was at least attempts to reach some type of settlement that doesn't negatively affect the rest of the world (i.e. non-islamist), I doubt the rest of the world would get involved.

abesha:

Just because we bring up the foreign interference doesn't mean that we do not blame Somalis themselves for their current situation. I think you need to stop using this idea that we think this, it's wrong and misleading. Somalia went to war because of simmering disputes created by the dictator that erupted when he was ousted.

I haven't seen any evidence on here that there is any introspection by Somalis. Whenever I open a thread it's always about the US or Ethiopia or other foreign agents, so my impression was created by what's posted here. If I saw threads or even just posts here that addressed internal issues, I wouldn't have come to that conclusion.

I think foreign assistance if done right could help Somalia get back on it's feet, obviously we all live in the same world and nobody develops on their own. More in the form of advisers though, not troops. But this kind of foreign assistance is extending the conflict. The world is supporting a corpse. There is no real aim or strategy except "lets kill the terrorists". Somalia has been at war for 22 years and Islamism has only been a part of it, and the wounds that created the war from the beginning is not even attempted to be healed by anyone.

Advising who though? That's the main problem. Who do you advise? When the advice went to the TFG, they became hated by ordinary Somalis. So what makes you think that other groups would also not be seen suspiciously if they receive any assistance from the outside world?

Incorrect.
We highlight foreign interference as a factor whenever it comes up (i.e. whenever foreigners wish to send more soldiers into Somalia somehow thinking it will fix it) but Somalis are ultimately to blame but one cannot expect Somalis to fix it with foreign countries who are unwanted butting their nose in.

And the fact you think this is Somali culture just speaks for itself. You have no knowledge of Somalia and Somalis history or culture. So I'll just take your opinion with a grain of salt :ohno:

give me some knowledge on somali culture that counters the fact that this has been a centuries old problem in somalia.

it's the painful truth. and if it wasn't the culture to begin with, 22 years is enough to entrench a culture of conflict into a people, you now have a generation of fighters who have never seen a day of peace and you want to tell me this its not in their culture?

and i don't for one minute by this 'foreigners won't survive' in somali chest puffing a lot of somalis are doing. The ethiopian army annihilated anything that stood in its way somali's called opposition and achieved its military goals, it just couldn't ensure peace because somali's started blaming ethiopia for its problems

:rofl:

No foreign country can tame Somalia. But hey, don't take our word for it.


Go try. We'll sit back and observe the inevitable withdrawal with a ...
http://gamefish.mlblogs.com/ToldYouSo.jpg

and i don't for one minute by this 'foreigners won't survive' in somali chest puffing a lot of somalis are doing. The ethiopian army annihilated anything that stood in its way somali's called opposition and achieved its military goals, it just couldn't ensure peace because somali's started blaming ethiopia for its problems

What military goals remove the so called terrorist and have them replaced with harden and more extreme terrorist. Ethiopia was literally fighting one Somali clan and was estimated to lose a few thousand troops

this isn't about foreign countries taming somalia, this is about somalia not being a country. this is about somalia's inability to 'tame' somalians.

and why are you proud of not being 'tame', are you implying that you're animals?
why is a group of human beings who have spent 22 years killing their own proud that they can't solve a problem and develop?

i don't know why you're using smilicons at me lol, there's nothing to laugh at on my side of the world, we have a government.

i don't know why you're using smilicons at me lol, there's nothing to laugh at on my side of the world, we have a government.

:rofl:

You have no idea how funny I am finding that right now.

And what African country are YOU from hm?

This is why I rather stick to the Somalia photo gallery thread here when talking about Somalia.

this isn't about foreign countries taming somalia, this is about somalia not being a country. this is about somalia's inability to 'tame' somalians.

and why are you proud of not being 'tame', are you implying that you're animals?
why is a group of human beings who have spent 22 years killing their own proud that they can't solve a problem and develop?

i don't know why you're using smilicons at me lol, there's nothing to laugh at on my side of the world, we have a government.

Most of Somalia is stable now, as you see in that graph. The only place which fighting constantly occurs is the capital where they are fighting for control over the airport and sea. Apart from that most region has stabilized

People always talk about Somali violence, yes it’s bad but nothing compared to the likes of Congo, Rwanda and during Nigerian civil war

I wouldn’t mind if Somalia followed Northern Nigeria style of self governance with Sharia Law, why can Nigeria be allowed this practice yet Somalia denied

What military goals remove the so called terrorist and have them replaced with harden and more extreme terrorist. Ethiopia was literally fighting one Somali clan and was estimated to lose a few thousand troops

Ethiopia BRUTALIZED all opposition lol. They took Mogadishu strengthened the government, and left.

the Ethiopians did everything they set to do

“Ethiopian defense forces were forced to enter into war to protect the sovereignty of the nation,” he said. “We are not trying to set up a government for Somalia, nor do we have an intention to meddle in Somalia's internal affairs. We have only been forced by the circumstances.”-Meles
militarily it was a total and complete cake walk

You are really grasping at straws. When exactly during the civil war did Ethiopia collapse and descend into complete and total anarchy???

ETHIOPIA: A Land of Anarchy and Bloodshed (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947663,00.html). A population the size of 70s/80s Somalia died during the Ethiopian Civil War.

Thank you but I will take low-intensity anarchy any day over such a experience.

The entire state aparatus in Somalia is non-existent and that certainly didn't happen next door.

That's called devolution, Somalia is evolving into a far more 'fairer' place than pre-civil war, no more; single bustling metropolises sucking up all resources, several economic centers have been created, several administrations directly serving their populations have been created. No Somali wants a Siad Barre 2.0or a Somali version of Meles Zenawi, unless you think military brutality is a good example of a state apparatus.

Why didn't they band together as one country?

Why the hurry?, if one can choose between a natural process where everyone sorts out their own economic and social issues first and then they pick a date in the future to unite, comparable to the re-unification of Germany, why would they instead join prematurely and risk a similar situation of civil strife?

Every country in the 3rd world deals with foreign meddling in their affairs yet Somalia is the ONLY one that collapses and stays collapsed. Why is that?

LOL, why does Afghanistan stay collapsed?, why are North Korea and South Korea not united? There only a handful of countries in the world that experienced the type transparent meddling that Somalia endured, coincidently, they are in a similar debacle.

This is not rocket science.

There's nothing revisionist about this. The reality is that Somalis are not willing to work together; if they were Somaliland + Puntland could have stabilized the rest of the country. That didn't happen did it. It's every man for himself.

Again they are sorting out their own issues, there is no point in uniting at this moment when there is such a transparent foreign presence in the South flaming up the situation.

Blame it on Ethiopia if you like, but your country will NEVER EVER solve its issues if you are always looking to blame outsiders for your problems. Only YOU can assert control over what happens there as you guys keep repeating here, but you are not doing the necessary work for that. You have to own your internal problems first and accept that if foreigners are meddling to the point you are left on your knees, it's because you let them get to you.

Somalis are the last people you can use the "they always blame others" tag on, any qualified expert on the conflict from the Samatar brothers to Ken Menkhaus emphasize the destructive influence of foreigners over all other factors.

If the US and regional proxies had flamed up the Kenya elections troubles with arm shipments and money bags equivelant to the ones we saw going to the Somali Warlords, that place would be in utter turmoil, and Kenyans are probably one most peaceful individuals I have met, so that says alot.

Somalis certainly will solve their own problems by themselves, they have repeatedly shown they are capable of this. Whether its the establishment of regional states with multiparty elections that put to shame other countries in the region, or regional co-operations of Somali professionals and companies providing healthcare, education, transport, electricity and telecommunication to the masses on a large scale.

also the Transitional Government, Somaliland (closest thing to non-disgraceful in somalia), and Puntland all supported Ethiopia, it was only the Islamic Courts that were against them.

Ethiopia BRUTALIZED all opposition lol. They took Mogadishu strengthened the government, and left.

the Ethiopians did everything they set to do


militarily it was a total and complete cake walk

Yea, what was the opposition? A sub sub clan of a tribe,

Ethiopia military objectives was to remove ICU, they failed since Al Shabab remained. Of course, a conventional army should be able to capture a city against a militia with American support. After entering the city, they engaged in a long insurgency which they lost thousands of men and only strengthen Al Shabab. And let's not forget they were helped by other Somalis

and lol at lost thousands of men, the Ethiopians did WAY more damage to the ICU then they did to Ethiopia, i remember that summer, they were shooting you guys down like goats and lying about the numbers.

anyways, again, the problem with somali is that there's a large contingency of posters here and form real life experience, somalis that are proud of what's going on. they think it makes them look 'tough'



now he's going to try and act like Somalia is a better country then Ethiopia LOL

also the Transitional Government, Somaliland (closest thing to non-disgraceful in somalia), and Puntland all supported Ethiopia, it was only the Islamic Courts that were against them.

None of them would speak out against the invasion since America supported. They would have been classified as supporters or sympathizer had they opposed

now he's going to try and act like Somalia is a better country then Ethiopia LOL

You haven't answered my question.

Interesting

Yeah, yeah, Somalia is the worst place on earth, and Somalis are the devil's children. Happy Ajepako?

also the Transitional Government, Somaliland (closest thing to non-disgraceful in somalia), and Puntland all supported Ethiopia, it was only the Islamic Courts that were against them.

Somaliland and Puntland couldn't speak otherwise their ass would have been invaded or branded as terrorists. That is the usual tactic.

Somaliland's sympathy and thoughts were however 100% with the Southern Somalis during Ethiopia's invasion into Somali territory.
No Somali supported Ethiopia except the joke of a fake Government the world props up. No Somali will ever support Ethiopia over their own.

Yeah, yeah, Somalia is the worst place on earth, and Somalis are the devil's children. Happy Ajepako?

wtf? if you think so.


My point is that somalians need to stop this habit of blaming foreigners for their problems or even saying they make it worst. Somalis caused the problem and somalis make it worst and it's become so ingrained in local culture that yes, you DO need foreign intervention, the only problem is they're not allowed to deal with you no holds barred.

the situation in somalia is not a source of pride, it's a total and absolute disgrace to anyone with shame and i'm tired of this "foreigners can't 'tame' somalia" nonsense because a total state of hopelessness doesn't mean your tough. that's all you're doing, trying to say, in directly, you're tough.

you're not tough, it's just nobody cares enough to deal with your problems for you and when they did (ethiopia) they annihilated the shit out of you. It's not their fault you guys couldn't maintain order afterwards

and now you want to act like Ethiopia because the very somalis killing your people said so. smh

wtf? if you think so.


My point is that somalians need to stop this habit of blaming foreigners for their problems or even saying they make it worst. Somalis caused the problem and somalis make it worst and it's become so ingrained in local culture that yes, you DO need foreign intervention, the only problem is they're not allowed to deal with you no holds barred.

the situation in somalia is not a source of pride, it's a total and absolute disgrace to anyone with shame and i'm tired of this "foreigners can't 'tame' somalia" nonsense because a total state of hopelessness doesn't mean your tough. that's all you're doing, trying to say, in directly, you're tough.

you're not tough, it's just nobody cares enough to deal with your problems for you and when they did (ethiopia) then annihilated the shit out of you. It's not their fault you guys couldn't maintain order afterwards

and now you want to act like Ethiopia because the very somalis killing your people said so. smh

:hilarious

Ethiopia did shit to Somalia.
Ethiopia deep down fears Somalia gaining peace and stability. Because once Somalia has peace and is military equipped, all eyes will turn back up North to regain back our land. Ethiopia fears a strong united Somalia :lol:

The longer this goes on, I am realising it is futile. You are incapable of understanding

And you haven't answered my question. Still.

ETHIOPIA: A Land of Anarchy and Bloodshed (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947663,00.html). A population the size of 70s/80s Somalia died during the Ethiopian Civil War.

Thank you but I will take low-intensity anarchy any day over such a experience.


That's called an exaggeration to sell newspapers; it's not like the Western media are strangers to that. There has never been a Somali-style anarchy.
You are right, the civil war was extremely brutal, but it never lead to a collapse of the state.

That's called devolution, Somalia is evolving into a far more 'fairer' place than pre-civil war, no more; single bustling metropolises sucking up all resources, several economic centers have been created, several administrations directly serving their populations have been created. No Somali wants a Siad Barre 2.0or a Somali version of Meles Zenawi, unless you think military brutality is a good example of a state apparatus.

Again, if Somalia stabilizes, that's good for everyone. The dig at Zenawi (i.e. trying to dig at Ethiopia) is ridiculous. The average human would rather live under a dictatorship with a stable country and a rapidly growing economy than in a no-man's land.


Why the hurry?, if one can choose between a natural process where everyone sorts out their own economic and social issues first and then they pick a date in the future to unite, comparable to the re-unification of Germany, why would they instead join prematurely and risk a similar situation of civil strife?

That's actually what I think will/should happen, but that won't work with more than half the country in chaos.

LOL, why does Afghanistan stay collapsed?, why are North Korea and South Korea not united? There only a handful of countries in the world that experienced the type transparent meddling that Somalia endured, coincidently, they are in a similar debacle.

This is not rocket science.


No it's not rocket science. That's the exact thing I'm saying in regards to the Islamist leaders. That's no solution since it would have ultimately ended with an Afghan-style chaos. A short-term veneer of peace is not worth the long-term problems as we're seeing in Afghanistan.

North Korea and South Korea are not collapsed states.




Somalis are the last people you can use the "they always blame others" tag on, any qualified expert on the conflict from the Samatar brothers to Ken Menkhaus emphasize the destructive influence of foreigners over all other factors.

Again, if Somalis on this forum made more effort to talk about internal problems, that impression of you would not have been created.

If the US and regional proxies had flamed up the Kenya elections troubles with arm shipments and money bags equivelant to the ones we saw going to the Somali Warlords, that place would be in utter turmoil, and Kenyans are probably one most peaceful individuals I have met, so that says alot.

They wouldn't have done that in Kenya simply because there is a functioning government there. That's not the case in Somalia so it's not comparable.


Somalis certainly will solve their own problems by themselves, they have repeatedly shown they are capable of this. Whether its the establishment of regional states with multiparty elections that put to shame other countries in the region, or regional co-operations of Somali professionals and companies providing healthcare, education, transport, electricity and telecommunication to the masses on a large scale.

I'd like to see that happen on a nationwide scale, and not as isolated pockets.

wtf? if you think so.


My point is that somalians need to stop this habit of blaming foreigners for their problems or even saying they make it worst. Somalis caused the problem and somalis make it worst and it's become so ingrained in local culture that yes, you DO need foreign intervention, the only problem is they're not allowed to deal with you no holds barred.

the situation in somalia is not a source of pride, it's a total and absolute disgrace to anyone with shame and i'm tired of this "foreigners can't 'tame' somalia" nonsense because a total state of hopelessness doesn't mean your tough. that's all you're doing, trying to say, in directly, you're tough.

you're not tough, it's just nobody cares enough to deal with your problems for you and when they did (ethiopia) they annihilated the shit out of you. It's not their fault you guys couldn't maintain order afterwards

and now you want to act like Ethiopia because the very somalis killing your people said so. smh


The point is that while Somalis hold the major blame for the situation, there is foreign interference. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't about "pride" (WTF? what pride is there in the current situation?). The strategy that the US is using isn't working and is extending the problems and divisions, and thinking that peacekeepers are going to fix all of Somalia's ills is naive and ignorant of history.

i don't know why you're using smilicons at me lol, there's nothing to laugh at on my side of the world, we have a government.

Yeah, a Nigerian government that can't even deal with with its own pirates. Somalia never had this problem under central rule. Not mention how the Niger Delta is still a conflict where your soldiers are shot down with impunity and civilians flee in their thousands. A country whose civil war saw the slaughter of more Nigerians than the entire civil war inflicted on Somalis, and still today has a lower life expectancy than Somalia, and a HIV aids rate that is the second highest on the continent, my friend your the last person to be even sitting on that delirious high horse.

GTFOH!

Yeah, a Nigerian government that can't even deal with with its own pirates. Somalia never had this problem under central rule. Not mention how the Niger Delta is still a conflict where your soldiers are shot down with impunity and civilians flee in their thousands. A country whose civil war saw the slaughter of more Nigerians than the entire civil war inflicted on Somalis, and still today has a lower life expectancy than Somalia, and a HIV aids rate that is the second highest on the continent, my friend your the last person to be even sitting on that delirious high horse.

GTFOH!

He is Nigerian? And he is bitching about Somalia?!

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0L47FK7M0MiUrM:http://motorhometoday.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/LMAO.gif&t=1
No wonder he refused to answer my question.

Come on guys, although I find his rhetoric ignorant and offensive myself, let's not go and insult other countries.

Let's argue with our better knowledge of the situation than get into petty insults.

Yeah, a Nigerian government that can't even deal with with its own pirates. Somalia never had this problem under central rule. Not mention how the Niger Delta is still a conflict where your soldiers are shot down with impunity and civilians flee in their thousands. A country whose civil war saw the slaughter of more Nigerians than the entire civil war inflicted on Somalis, and still today has a lower life expectancy than Somalia, and a HIV aids rate that is the second highest on the continent, my friend your the last person to be even sitting on that delirious high horse.

GTFOH!

LOL nigeria has dealt with "nigerian pirates". To the point that the president is now one of their own.

are you REALLY going to try to compare nigeria to somalia dude? lol.


Nigeria forgot a civil war that lasted less then 4 years in the 1960s. The war ended, everyone moved on.

If there was more casualties in a country 10X the size and importance of your own geographical expression nobody is going to be shocked and surprised. but i guess for the sake of winning internet ego battles you can cite the Nigerian civil war in the 1960s as the reason somalia is a first world country.



He is Nigerian? And he is bitching about Somalia?!

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0L47FK7M0MiUrM:http://motorhometoday.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/LMAO.gif&t=1
No wonder he refused to answer my question.
LOL i guess Nigeria is a worst country then Somalia.

do you see what i mean? instead of admitting there's a SOMALI problem in SOMALIA your firing shots at me personally because of my nationality.
hey good job. smh lol.

LOL i guess Nigeria is a worst country then Somalia.

do you see what i mean? instead of admitting there's a SOMALI problem in SOMALIA your firing shots at me personally because of my nationality.
hey good job. smh lol.

I'd take Somalia over Nigeria if that is what you are asking. Less chance of dying by having sex
Nah mate. I fire shots at you because you make it so damn easy.

You are not worth Somalis time and effort to explain. I'd suggest to everyone else to leave Ajepako to his delusions about Somalia and to not bother answering back to his posts. Some people are hopeless cases.

So to everyone else:

What would you say is necessary to occur in the South for peace to occur? Should Puntland/Somaliland be playing a more/less active role?

The Wikileaks suggests Eritrea is funding Al Shabab, should that be stopped entirely as well.

I'd take Somalia over Nigeria if that is what you are asking. Less chance of dying by having sex
Nah mate. I fire shots at you because you make it so damn easy.

You are not worth Somalis time and effort to explain. I'd suggest to everyone else to leave Ajepako to his delusions about Somalia and to not bother answering back to his posts. Some people are hopeless cases.

:applause:

The point is that while Somalis hold the major blame for the situation, there is foreign interference. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't about "pride" (WTF? what pride is there in the current situation?). The strategy that the US is using isn't working and is extending the problems and divisions, and thinking that peacekeepers are going to fix all of Somalia's ills is naive and ignorant of history.

Although I don't agree with some of what Ajepako has said, I do concur with him on this point. It almost sounds like people are proud of not allowing any foreign assistance due to the constant "you can never tame Somalis", etc. It's not about taming. I understand suspicions towards foreign intentions and resistance, but when dealing with a nonexistent state it seems to me there is a good trade-off in allowing assistance.

IOW, even if an American assisted government were to take over, would it really be worse than the current situation? Couldn't that at least be used as the foundation to build a state to your liking? At least it would maintain central control and give stability to the country, basic services like education and health care can be reestablished, a national army can be reestablished (and maybe including former warlords), etc.

It's an honest question. I'd be interested in hearing your (Somalis) thoughts.

So to everyone else:

What would you say is necessary to occur in the South for peace to occur? Should Puntland/Somaliland be playing a more/less active role?


The less toxic TFG members and Al Shabab need to negotiate a truce. Both on their own, they are not viable to be states, but at least if they create a power sharing agreement to create a government, I think peace can be achieved. This however depends on the hard-headed attitudes of everyone there which needs to soften. Al Shabab also needs to try to morph into a political party and renounce violence.

As for Puntland/Somaliland: I think they can be more involved in the negotiations, arguably they are better than Djibouti, Ethiopia, or Kenya on this since they have a better cusp on the conflict better. Could also help add points to Somaliland's quest for recognition PR-wise.


The Wikileaks suggests Eritrea is funding Al Shabab, should that be stopped entirely as well.

I don't think that is true...Hisbul Islam perhaps is getting a cut from Eritrea but not Al Shabab. They called the Eritrean government an infidel state a few months ago, and it's been widely acknowledged that most of their arms are secondhand from TFG desertions.

I'd take Somalia over Nigeria if that is what you are asking. Less chance of dying by having sex
Nah mate. I fire shots at you because you make it so damn easy.

You are not worth Somalis time and effort to explain. I'd suggest to everyone else to leave Ajepako to his delusions about Somalia and to not bother answering back to his posts. Some people are hopeless cases.

LOL nigeria doesn't even have a high aids rate :lol:
this whole argument failed when a failed state, the ONLY in the world, became a beacon of comparison to Nigeria lol

dude Nigeria is better then your country LOL. If you want to insult me personal look for something that make sense

i have a big head and nose. insult my big head and/or nose, but don't come in here trying to act like Nigeria has anything to gain or learn from somalia

LOL nigeria doesn't even have a high aids rate :lol:
this whole argument failed when a failed state, the ONLY in the world, became a beacon of comparison to Nigeria lol

dude Nigeria is better then your country LOL. If you want to insult me personal look for something that make sense

i have a big head and nose. insult my big head and/or nose, but don't come in here trying to act like Nigeria has anything to gain or learn from somalia

:nuts::nuts:

WOW,

You are really starting to show your inferiority complex


I really understand why you post like this against Somalia. See a shrink :lol:

Although I don't agree with some of what Ajepako has said, I do concur with him on this point. It almost sounds like people are proud of not allowing any foreign assistance due to the constant "you can never tame Somalis", etc. It's not about taming. I understand suspicions towards foreign intentions and resistance, but when dealing with a nonexistent state it seems to me there is a good trade-off in allowing assistance.

"You can not tame Somalis" is not a point of pride, it is a warning. We don't want more people to die in vain there.

I am just countering on previous acts. There has not been a showing that peacekeeping efforts in Somalia have been a success, they have actually made the solution worse, and there is no allusion that it will change anytime soon. What I am saying here is, the strategy towards Somalia needs to change, as boneheaded as you might think Somalis are in this opinion, I have not heard of anything from any of you guys that would change, other than the false hope that Ugandans will liberate the nation and do what the Americans and Ethiopians have failed to do.


IOW, even if an American assisted government were to take over, would it really be worse than the current situation? Couldn't that at least be used as the foundation to build a state to your liking? At least it would maintain central control and give stability to the country, basic services like education and health care can be reestablished, a national army can be reestablished (and maybe including former warlords), etc.


Well, that is what the TFG is supposed to do, but hey...it isn't working.

If it isn't working with all this international support, it is a fruitless endeavor.

The less toxic TFG members and Al Shabab need to negotiate a truce. Both on their own, they are not viable to be states, but at least if they create a power sharing agreement to create a government, I think peace can be achieved. This however depends on the hard-headed attitudes of everyone there which needs to soften.

I agree, the fact that both of them support an introduction of aspects of sharia can be a basis to start negotiations and over time perhaps, phase certain parts out.
Decentralization would need to occur, greater autonomy to regions including Puntland. I think that is viable and more than likely to succeed, perhaps put a date to mark when the first elections need to occur after a peace deal is achieved? A goal?

As for Puntland/Somaliland: I think they can be more involved in the negotiations, arguably they are better than Djibouti, Ethiopia, or Kenya on this since they have a better cusp on the conflict better. Could also help add points to Somaliland's quest for recognition PR-wise.

Both Somaliland and Puntland could negotiate better than any of our neighbouring countries. Ethiopia, Djibouti, Kenya all have their own agendas when it comes to negotiation whereas I think both Somaliland and Puntland will only benefit from true peace.
Even if Somaliland becomes Independent, I am in support of retaining ties with Somalia and Puntland. I'd actually support a military agreement, if the South is attacked by any of our prickly neighbours. I'd make an agreement that would mean all regions would have to help, that would help prevent the natural weakening that comes with breaking up a United Somalia.


I don't think that is true...Hisbul Islam perhaps is getting a cut from Eritrea but not Al Shabab. They called the Eritrean government an infidel state a few months ago, and it's been widely acknowledged that most of their arms are secondhand from TFG desertions.

Perhaps but Al Shabab must have foreign investment. Just a matter of finding it and stopping it and how are weapons coming into Somalia? I thought there was an arms embargo

im currently reading articles about somalians getting killed for having sex.
the irony.
http://insidesomalia.org/200911092609/News/Human-Rights/Somalia-Islamists-stoned-man-to-death-for-sex-out-of-wedlock-and-pregnant-girl-to-follow.html



i'm withdrawing for this discussion because it's a hopeless failed thread, where somalis are blaming me, an outsider, for the level of disruption of petty fighting in this thread even though it was going on before i came and will continue well after. it's a hopeless failed thread that is being murdered by the mentality and pride in petty fighting and xenophobia

i'll comeback if nigeria is brought up though.

:nuts::nuts:

WOW,

You are really starting to show your inferiority complex


I really understand why you post like this against Somalia. See a shrink :lol:

:lol:

im currently reading articles about somalians getting killed for having sex.
the irony.
http://insidesomalia.org/200911092609/News/Human-Rights/Somalia-Islamists-stoned-man-to-death-for-sex-out-of-wedlock-and-pregnant-girl-to-follow.html



i'm withdrawing for this discussion because it's a hopeless failed thread, where somalis are blaming me, an outsider, for the level of disruption of petty fighting in this thread even though it was going on before i came and will continue well after. it's a hopeless failed thread that is being murdered by the mentality and pride in petty fighting and xenophobia

i'll comeback if nigeria is brought up though.

You know North Nigeria practices the exact same law as South Somalia

not all the states but yeah, it's in the nigerian CONSTITUTION that as a FEDERATION of STATES it has the RIGHT to practice islamic LAW.
and if you feel that you were judged unfairly in the COURT OF LAW in your respective STATE concerning sharia, you can take the issue to the FEDERAL SUPREME COURT and they still have final say on what happens to you.


I don't see anything wrong with Sharia law if a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED state GOVERNOR passes a BILL with the state ASSEMBLY implementing it.

but this thread isn't about sharia, it's about Somalia, if Sharia is needed to help somalia become a COUNTRY then so be it.

Although I don't agree with some of what Ajepako has said, I do concur with him on this point. It almost sounds like people are proud of not allowing any foreign assistance due to the constant "you can never tame Somalis", etc. It's not about taming. I understand suspicions towards foreign intentions and resistance, but when dealing with a nonexistent state it seems to me there is a good trade-off in allowing assistance.


Most (90+ %) internal problems are never solved by outsiders. It been proven many times before and so many countries. It doesn't matter weather its a non existent state or not. Internal is internal. I can give examples.

Somali being the topic. In the last 20 years. how many foreigners have been involved in there? Has the solution even came close?I don't think 20 years is a little time.

The day, Somali warlords will say enough is enough. Thats when the conflict will end.

not all the states but yeah, it's in the nigerian CONSTITUTION that as a FEDERATION of STATES it has the RIGHT to practice islamic LAW.

Somalia has nothing i've capitalized LOL and you're trying to act like im the problem.
I don't see anything wrong with Sharia law if a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED state GOVERNOR passes a BILL with the state ASSEMBLY implementing it.

but this thread isn't about sharia, it's about Somalia, if Sharia is needed to help somalia become a COUNTRY then so be it.

That is why I emphatically stated Northern Nigeria. This was regarding your post about stoning, you post that link yet ignoring the fact Nigeria as well practices the same law in half of the country

im currently reading articles about somalians getting killed for having sex.
the irony.
http://insidesomalia.org/200911092609/News/Human-Rights/Somalia-Islamists-stoned-man-to-death-for-sex-out-of-wedlock-and-pregnant-girl-to-follow.html



i'm withdrawing for this discussion because it's a hopeless failed thread, where somalis are blaming me, an outsider, for the level of disruption of petty fighting in this thread even though it was going on before i came and will continue well after. it's a hopeless failed thread that is being murdered by the mentality and pride in petty fighting and xenophobia

i'll comeback if nigeria is brought up though.

You know we can't put all Nigeriens in the same basket.

You are right, the civil war was extremely brutal, but it never lead to a collapse of the state.

I still prefer Somalia's situation, we could never recover from such a population loss. (not a dig)

Again, if Somalia stabilizes, that's good for everyone. The dig at Zenawi (i.e. trying to dig at Ethiopia) is ridiculous. The average human would rather live under a dictatorship with a stable country and a rapidly growing economy than in a no-man's land.

Somalia and Ethiopia in terms of living standards aren't that much different, and that was a genuine dig at Meles Zenawi for his brutality in the Ogaden.

That's actually what I think will/should happen, but that won't work with more than half the country in chaos.

99% of the country was pacified in 2006, it will happen again. That period changed everything for good.

No it's not rocket science. That's the exact thing I'm saying in regards to the Islamist leaders. That's no solution since it would have ultimately ended with an Afghan-style chaos. A short-term veneer of peace is not worth the long-term problems as we're seeing in Afghanistan.

Islamic Courts Union were nothing like the Taliban, a better comparison would be the Islamic Republic of Iran who despite its nuclear ambitions is a admirable country.

North Korea and South Korea are not collapsed states.

This is about influence, and how it can prevent native objectives from materializing. Every Korean both South and North want their countries re-united, but intense meddling since 1948 has prevented this.

Again, if Somalis on this forum made more effort to talk about internal problems, that impression of you would not have been created.

We have done this plenty of times, Xusein being the most vocal example, but if you think i'm going to indulge in a alternative history where Al-Shabab's current reign of the South did not come as a DIRECT result of a foreign invasion, then your mistaken.

I'm not here to appease.

I'd like to see that happen on a nationwide scale, and not as isolated pockets.

Since when is free education in Somaliland and Puntland(combined population being 7+ million) 'isolated pockets'. Dozens of Universities with international connections have been established across the country. The telecommunication network is one of the best in the region. Multiple infectious diseases have plummeted dramatically in double digits. There are 48hospitals in Somalia filled with diasporic and homegrown professionals serving a population of 10 million, which is significant if you compare this to Ethiopia where 142 hospitals serve a population of 80 million.(both I haven't include smaller health facilities)

That is why I emphatically stated Northern Nigeria. This was regarding your post about stoning, you post that link yet ignoring the fact Nigeria as well practices the same law in half of the country

:lol::lol:

That is why I emphatically stated Northern Nigeria. This was regarding your post about stoning, you post that link yet ignoring the fact Nigeria as well practices the same law in half of the country

:lol:
Oh snap.

lol at pretending to laugh on the internet to root on your 'side' of an internet 'be3f'.
That is why I emphatically stated Northern Nigeria. This was regarding your post about stoning, you post that link yet ignoring the fact Nigeria as well practices the same law in half of the country

half? lol.
anyways, you said you wouldn't be killed for having sex in somalia, i posted an article of people being killed for having sex in somalia. that's all.

im not saying nigeria doesn't have sharia, the states that have it have every right in the world to have it, as does somalia, but you said you won't die having sex in somalia when the contrary is true.

lol at pretending to laugh on the internet to root on your 'side' of an internet 'be3f'.
I laughed because it was funny ... that is sort of what the 'lol' stands for :shifty:

half? lol.
anyways, you said you wouldn't be killed for having sex in somalia, i posted an article of people being killed for having sex in somalia. that's all.

in not saying nigeria doesn't have sharia, the states that have it have every right in the world to have it, as does somalia, but you said you won't dying having sex in somalia when the contrary is true.

Again, you seem to fail to comprehend simple thing. Firstly I didn’t say anything about “dying when having sex”. It was a comment made by Lailax in retaliation for your insults on Somalia.

Secondly just like Nigeria, only half of Somalia is governed by Sharia Law, so your post about stoning Somalia doesn’t make sense since your country has applied this system much before Somalia.


As more you post about Somalia, things become clearer. You have absolutely no understanding of the current political situation of the country nor have any idea of the country’s past. The post about “us” attacking your facial features truly underpins inferiority complex you have towards Somalis. You are not posting with a clear mind but rather with utter animosity towards Somalis.


I really suggest you speak medical help and find out this reasons behind your hatred.

"You can not tame Somalis" is not a point of pride, it is a warning. We don't want more people to die in vain there.

I am just countering on previous acts. There has not been a showing that peacekeeping efforts in Somalia have been a success, they have actually made the solution worse, and there is no allusion that it will change anytime soon. What I am saying here is, the strategy towards Somalia needs to change, as boneheaded as you might think Somalis are in this opinion, I have not heard of anything from any of you guys that would change, other than the false hope that Ugandans will liberate the nation and do what the Americans and Ethiopians have failed to do.

^^ x1000
Well said :)

I agree, the fact that both of them support an introduction of aspects of sharia can be a basis to start negotiations and over time perhaps, phase certain parts out.
Decentralization would need to occur, greater autonomy to regions including Puntland. I think that is viable and more than likely to succeed, perhaps put a date to mark when the first elections need to occur after a peace deal is achieved? A goal?

The problems in Somalia are so easy to fix, but I don't think the real reasons why it hasn't been fixed is because it isn't in the interest of those in "charge" to do so.

Decentralization is already the rule in the country. The days of a centralized government giving all the resources to the capital while the rest of the country freezes is over...Puntland for example does support staying in Somalia, on the agreement that it will be part of a Federal Somalia, so that itself is something to build up upon.

My idea for Somalia to fix itself might be unorthodox but here they are: I think 2-3 years would be needed to create an interim government built upon a peace deal would be made first. Keep it until a infrastructure for elections can be made No federal elections at first, keep it local first with heavy international monitoring. And results should be accepted, even if the US doesn't like it to be.


Both Somaliland and Puntland could negotiate better than any of our neighbouring countries. Ethiopia, Djibouti, Kenya all have their own agendas when it comes to negotiation whereas I think both Somaliland and Puntland will only benefit from true peace.
Even if Somaliland becomes Independent, I am in support of retaining ties with Somalia and Puntland. I'd actually support a military agreement, if the South is attacked by any of our prickly neighbours. I'd make an agreement that would mean all regions would have to help, that would help prevent the natural weakening that comes with breaking up a United Somalia.


Agreed 100% here, no disagreements at all.


Perhaps but Al Shabab must have foreign investment. Just a matter of finding it and stopping it and how are weapons coming into Somalia? I thought there was an arms embargo

Definitely Al Shabab has Arab and Pakistani/Afghan backers but I think their influence is overrated. The reason why they have pledged allegiance to Al Qaeda and that riffraff has to do with having more arms than ideological reasons I think.

Arms embargo is pointless, as you know. :lol:

I think Al Shabab can be reformed, not defeated. They are disgusting and are trying to turn Somalia into some Islamic no-mans land that is an Arab copycat, but they are still an immature organization, and let's face it, with all the stuff they do in Somalia, they still have no more blood on their hands than other politicians in Somalia that are secular today. I have no more trust on "the other side".

Whether we like it or not, Sharia is perhaps the future for Somalia and even if Al Shabab is wiped out, Islamism has become a major force in politics (I think clanism is still larger). What needs to be done is to try to get the moderates to change hands with the better guys of the TFG. The extremists on both sides have no future and can't bring peace because they gain financially from the chaos.

Or better yet, get the business class on the other side. They currently support Al Shabab for the stability they have made. I think they play a role in the arming of Al Shabab, like in the days when they armed personal bodyguards to shield them.

Let's not get things twisted here though, I am NOT a supporter of Al Shabab. I don't support any side in this conflict because they all are bad. But the "less bad" guys on both sides have a chance to redeem themselves for the better of Somalia. We got disappointed with the "savior" Sharif Ahmad before so I think it'll just go down to a bare settlement.

As more you post about Somalia, things become clearer. You have absolutely no understanding of the current political situation of the country nor have any idea of the country’s past. The post about “us” attacking your facial features truly underpins inferiority complex you have towards Somalis. You are not posting with a clear mind but rather with utter animosity towards Somalis.

I really suggest you speak medical help and find out this reasons behind your hatred.

This makes sense, his animosity and schadenfreude towards us on a scale that not even the Ethiopian members employ in their replies, did warrant a big question mark. This is basically someone fighting ghosts from a different forum(or maybe even from real life), on SSC.

Now I regret replying in kind.

"You can not tame Somalis" is not a point of pride, it is a warning. We don't want more people to die in vain there.

I am just countering on previous acts. There has not been a showing that peacekeeping efforts in Somalia have been a success, they have actually made the solution worse, and there is no allusion that it will change anytime soon. What I am saying here is, the strategy towards Somalia needs to change, as boneheaded as you might think Somalis are in this opinion, I have not heard of anything from any of you guys that would change, other than the false hope that Ugandans will liberate the nation and do what the Americans and Ethiopians have failed to do.


:hahaha:, I just laugh evertime i hear that Uganda , Burundi will do better than Americans.

They can't even end their own countries' problems, but they are somewhere on welfare trying to end what powerful countries have failed.:lol:

Again, you seem to fail to comprehend simple thing. Firstly I didn’t say anything about “dying when having sex”. It was a comment made by Lailax in retaliation for your insults on Somalia.

Secondly just like Nigeria, only half of Somalia is governed by Sharia Law, so your post about stoning Somalia doesn’t make sense since your country has applied this system much before Somalia.


As more you post about Somalia, things become clearer. You have absolutely no understanding of the current political situation of the country nor have any idea of the country’s past. The post about “us” attacking your facial features truly underpins inferiority complex you have towards Somalis. You are not posting with a clear mind but rather with utter animosity towards Somalis.
I really suggest you speak medical help and find out this reasons behind your hatred.

I think because Somali pirates get more ships than.......:lol:

Again, you seem to fail to comprehend simple thing. Firstly I didn’t say anything about “dying when having sex”. It was a comment made by Lailax in retaliation for your insults on Somalia.

Secondly just like Nigeria, only half of Somalia is governed by Sharia Law, so your post about stoning Somalia doesn’t make sense since your country has applied this system much before Somalia.


As more you post about Somalia, things become clearer. You have absolutely no understanding of the current political situation of the country nor have any idea of the country’s past. The post about “us” attacking your facial features truly underpins inferiority complex you have towards Somalis. You are not posting with a clear mind but rather with utter animosity towards Somalis.


I really suggest you speak medical help and find out this reasons behind your hatred.
Somalia doesn't have a political situation lol. it's just a situation.
LOL at feeling inferior to somalians. im fuckin gorgeous hahahaha

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1196.snc4/154870_136572496396551_100001314033789_193419_3808111_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs032.ash2/34983_103805159673285_100001314033789_31225_7023514_n.jpg



you guys are attempting to divert blame for your failed situation from country to country and now it's country v. AJEPAKO.
anyways, my point, which has been well proven and admitted by all of you, foreigners aren't the problem in somalia, somalias are.

i'll defend my country when addressed and have no problem doing that but i have already proven my point in this thread, everything else is a distraction

I have nothing against somalia or somalis, i would like the situation to improve, but bragging about the situation or trying to act like its someone else's fault is disgraceful, like the situation it's self. It's up to you to face the shame like a man and do something about it, you can argue with me all you want, you're still doing less for your country then the foreigners that have tired to save you from yourselves. that to me is pitiful.

RCkVJWIwYzc

It's not really admittance, as I've been saying that here since Somalia started being discussed here. Of course the war was caused primarily by Somalis themselves, but the "international community" is not finding a viable solution to deal with it and exacerbates it ironically. I haven't read anything from anyone here that is non-Somali (except Butembo) that admits this reality. You are just on the other side of the coin.

BTW, I do a lot for my country! I give money back home. :)

The problems in Somalia are so easy to fix, but I don't think the real reasons why it hasn't been fixed is because it isn't in the interest of those in "charge" to do so.

Decentralization is already the rule in the country. The days of a centralized government giving all the resources to the capital while the rest of the country freezes is over...Puntland for example does support staying in Somalia, on the agreement that it will be part of a Federal Somalia, so that itself is something to build up upon.

My idea for Somalia to fix itself might be unorthodox but here they are: I think 2-3 years would be needed to create an interim government built upon a peace deal would be made first. Keep it until a infrastructure for elections can be made No federal elections at first, keep it local first with heavy international monitoring. And results should be accepted, even if the US doesn't like it to be.

I agree, a similar thing happened in Somaliland remember. Local then national. Some political changes would need to occur for example like Somaliland, a restriction on the number of parties (forcing it to be about political ideology rather than clan) etc.


Arms embargo is pointless, as you know. :lol:

I think Al Shabab can be reformed, not defeated. They are disgusting and are trying to turn Somalia into some Islamic no-mans land that is an Arab copycat, but they are still an immature organization, and let's face it, with all the stuff they do in Somalia, they still have no more blood on their hands than other politicians in Somalia that are secular today. I have no more trust on "the other side".

Whether we like it or not, Sharia is perhaps the future for Somalia and even if Al Shabab is wiped out, Islamism has become a major force in politics (I think clanism is still larger). What needs to be done is to try to get the moderates to change hands with the better guys of the TFG. The extremists on both sides have no future and can't bring peace because they gain financially from the chaos.

Or better yet, get the business class on the other side. They currently support Al Shabab for the stability they have made. I think they play a role in the arming of Al Shabab, like in the days when they armed personal bodyguards to shield them.

Let's not get things twisted here though, I am NOT a supporter of Al Shabab. I don't support any side in this conflict because they all are bad. But the "less bad" guys on both sides have a chance to redeem themselves for the better of Somalia. We got disappointed with the "savior" Sharif Ahmad before so I think it'll just go down to a bare settlement.

Al Shabab is still at its weak stages but I agree. Reformation would be necessary. I agree with you here.

"You can not tame Somalis" is not a point of pride, it is a warning. We don't want more people to die in vain there.


Actually it is stated as if it's a matter of pride, as a chest beating thing, not a matter of concern for others. Anyway, that's beside the point.

I don't think AMISOM is destined to succeed either.

Well, that is what the TFG is supposed to do, but hey...it isn't working.

If it isn't working with all this international support, it is a fruitless endeavor.

It's not working because of the extreme suspicion of anything seen as touched by foreigners. That's what I mean. Why is everyone so anti-foreign? Why can't the TFG (for instance) be used just to restore a state and use it as a foundation? Why are Somalis so resistant? That's what I'm asking. It seems to me the TFG is a better base on which to build a country than Al Shabaab.

You still haven't answered my previous question of who is to be advised.

It's not really admittance, as I've been saying that here since Somalia started being discussed here. Of course the war was caused primarily by Somalis themselves, but the "international community" is not finding a viable solution to deal with it and exacerbates it ironically. I haven't read anything from anyone here that is non-Somali (except Butembo) that admits this reality. You are just on the other side of the coin.

Butembo understands because of similarities with his country. He knows what needs to occur :)

It seems to me the TFG is a better base on which to build a country than Al Shabaab.

Why is TFG better for Somalia than Al Shabab?

if nazi germany can be ended with foreign intervention somali somalia can too.
im not saying thats the answer but everyone needs to stop acting like somalia is this world beyond worlds. what they're dealing with is country run by several gangs.

somalians have had long enough to solve the problem and CLEARLY can't. Lets stop deceiving ourselves, what can somalis do that other's can't? Some of us speak as if there's a note in a bottle somewhere in a somali's bedroom that has the formula to cure somalia.

i just dont want anyone
-bragging about chaos in somalia
-claiming that anyone but somalis caused and prolonged the problem
-acting like their chaos is a unqiue cause from chaos elsewhere in the world.

the only reason the US 'couldn't do anything' what because it honestly doesn't care about somalia, has no interests in somalia, and doesn't want to be tied down to a part of the world that it and nobody else has anything to gain from. it has nothing to do with their greater foreign policy interests.

if all things were equal the US could turn somalia around as they've done elsewhere in the war inflicted world against greater odds.

nobody cares about somalia, its just now it's becoming a problem for others and choking its neighbors with refugees.

the problem needs to be fixed, and if uganda has to do it for you so be it.

Why is TFG better for Somalia than Al Shabab?

It's secular and it's not aggressive.

It's secular and it's not aggressive.

Not good enough.
TFG supports Sharia, hardly secular
Not to mention corrupt, untrustworthy, made up of in some cases some of the bastards who killed many decades ago and you want us to listen to them? I'd rather rip out my nails.

I see no reason to support them over Al Shabab.

Actually it is stated as if it's a matter of pride, as a chest beating thing, not a matter of concern for others. Anyway, that's beside the point.


Who is using it as a chest beating thing? Not certainly me. There is obviously NO pride in having a stateless country where people die for pointless things like ideology and cronyism. Somalia as a state (i.e government, not country or history or people) is an embarrassment to the 100X degree to anyone who is Somali. If you find anyone here saying that it's prideful to be in the situation it is in, please bring it up here.



It's not working because of the extreme suspicion of anything seen as touched by foreigners. That's what I mean. Why is everyone so anti-foreign? Why can't the TFG (for instance) be used just to restore a state and use it as a foundation? Why are Somalis so resistant? That's what I'm asking. It seems to me the TFG is a better base on which to build a country than Al Shabaab.


Nowhere in the world are people really jumping to joy to have a foreign government rule them. Stop making Somalis look like they are some kind of alien species that doesn't want peace or are inherently violent.

The TFG is a government filled with the vestiges of the worst abuses done in the nineties (and even before!) to people in Somalia. You can not expect people to live in dictatorship again, it is illegitimate. Al Shabab is a problem, yes, but just because someone doesn't like the TFG doesn't mean Al Shabab is the only option for Somalia. Read my posts above.



You still haven't answered my previous question of who is to be advised.

I would like to see Somaliland officials advise them. They are the best examples of democracy at work in the region! :)

It's secular and it's not aggressive.

Somali warlords were secular and weren't aggressive (at least to it's neighbors!). :lol:

So why bother with the TFG? Why can we just go back to the days of warlord fiefdoms and checkpoints and clan murders? After all, back then, other than refugee movements, they did nothing less than the TFG achieved.

This logic is what caused Somalia to fall apart again in 2007. :no:

It's secular and it's not aggressive.

Al shabaab is nuts and not prefered , TFG is non existent . They are both 2 bird of same feathers.

As religious as Somalis are. Most don't was Al Shabaab rule. But they even despite TFG because its just a name that doesn't even control half the city.

Wost of them all. They both inviting in foreigners to support them or their causes. which ends up making things worst. The more civilians die. the worst.

So having civilians die because of both sides's stupidity. who are they going to serve? When civilians are dying with no end in site?

Who is using it as a chest beating thing? Not certainly me. There is obviously NO pride in having a stateless country where people die for pointless things like ideology and cronyism. Somalia as a state (i.e government, not country or history or people) is an embarrassment to the 100X degree to anyone who is Somali. If you find anyone here saying that it's prideful to be in the situation it is in, please bring it up here.

You haven't, but a lot of posters here give me that impression (not that it's prideful to be in that situation, but "not being tamed").


Nowhere in the world are people really jumping to joy to have a foreign government rule them. Stop making Somalis look like they are some kind of alien species that doesn't want peace or are inherently violent.

I never claimed such a thing. WTF.

The TFG is a government filled with the vestiges of the worst abuses done in the nineties (and even before!) to people in Somalia. You can not expect people to live in dictatorship again, it is illegitimate. Al Shabab is a problem, yes, but just because someone doesn't like the TFG doesn't mean Al Shabab is the only option for Somalia. Read my posts above.

Well for me, dictatorship is better than full anarchy. However I didn't know that about TFG (of the abuses) so that makes sense that people don't want them.

I would like to see Somaliland officials advise them. They are the best examples of democracy at work in the region! :)

Would a northerner be seen as legitimate by southerners?

The comments made by some against Somalia are really offensive!

Its just sad how people think that the whole of Somalia is a "lawless piece of land" :ohno:

I would like to see Somaliland officials advise them. They are the best examples of democracy at work in the region! :)

Again, many tend to forget than the region's only democracy is Somali.

Not good enough.
TFG supports Sharia, hardly secular
Not to mention corrupt, untrustworthy, made up of in some cases some of the bastards who killed many decades ago and you want us to listen to them? I'd rather rip out my nails.

I see no reason to support them over Al Shabab.

Al Shabaab is butchering people for the most inane reasons, you seriously believe they are better than TFG?

Somali warlords were secular and weren't aggressive (at least to it's neighbors!). :lol:

So why bother with the TFG? Why can we just go back to the days of warlord fiefdoms and checkpoints and clan murders? After all, back then, other than refugee movements, they did nothing less than the TFG achieved.

This logic is what caused Somalia to fall apart again in 2007. :no:


This has nothing to do with neighbors. Whatever, we're back to the blame game.

Again, many tend to forget than the region's only democracy is Somali.

It doesn't fit into the "Somalis are incapable of running their own shit and are lawless" argument

Somaliland hands down beats many of EA countries when it comes to democracy yet people ignore it. The fact that Somaliland achieved this with no help compared to much of Africa - including East Africa who readily get help from foreign countries all the times to help their elections makes it even more ridiculous the criticisms thrown at Somalis :ohno:

Al Shabaab is butchering people for the most inane reasons, you seriously believe they are better than TFG?


I see no difference between TFG and Al Shabab. Both have their hands running with blood. I would not support TFG.

I do however know that Al Shabab does not include members from the 90's who killed many Somalis and in some cases were members of the Government or military during that period :ohno:

You haven't, but a lot of posters here give me that impression (not that it's prideful to be in that situation, but "not being tamed").

Impressions aren't enough to warrant this false opinion that you and Ajepako keep banging on. What is this idea of pride of not being tamed? The situation can't be tamed with the status quo, that is the point I've been writing since this thread erupted again.


I never claimed such a thing. WTF.


Okay what I said in the second sentence was conjecture but I still don't think any other country would accept being ruled by outsiders.


Well for me, dictatorship is better than full anarchy. However I didn't know that about TFG (of the abuses) so that makes sense that people don't want them.


You know what would really make me sad. If Somalia gained peace and became a dictatorship.



Would a northerner be seen as legitimate by southerners?

That's not the point. I think that they are the only ones that can realistically play as mediators in this conflict.

Al Shabaab is butchering people for the most inane reasons, you seriously believe they are better than TFG?


So did many of the people affiliated with TFG.

Do you actually think people were not killed for inane reasons before the Islamists came about?

Basically what it has come down to in the opinion of some here:

- Somalis are uncapable of establishing stability, despite the numerous examples of large swathes of the country having been rebuild and currently flourishing through the initiatives of Somalis themselves.

- Nobody cares about Somalia, its strategic position, its role in global and regional agendas have nothing to do with its current debacle. Just like Iraq is completely the fault of Iraqis.

- Al-Shabab's current reign did not come as a result of a foreign invasion, mention this, and you are playing the blame game.

- All foreign interventions were spectacularly successful, and have an excellent track record, how dare Somali members highlight the death toll and mayhem that came as a result.

- Somalis should accept well known murderers and abusers as their government, because the international community supports them, otherwise face the risk of being accused of taking pride/bragging about chaos.

I think i'm done with this thread. :nuts:

^^

Sums it up pretty well.
I'm off to bed :)

^^

Sums it up pretty well.
I'm off to bed :)

Can i join u?

Can i join u?

You just woke up, stay up and go to work/school. :hahaha:

You just woke up, stay up and go to work/school. :hahaha:

I am off today and next day.

I am off today and next day.

Monday and Tuesday ? then you may join her.:) read her , good night stories.

LOL at the last couple posts. :laugh:

Poll from the BBC conducted in Mogadishu


Speaking of options - the BBC has just unveiled the results of a new opinion poll conducted in Mogadishu. In a place as dangerous as this, the circumstances of the process may well be as revealing as the actual results.

Crossing the frontlines here, pollsters braved gunfire from rival militias to visit most of the city. In areas controlled by al-Shabab, it was considered too dangerous to ask people directly, what they thought of the group, instead they spoke of "the opposition."

The poll reveals a resilient population - overwhelmingly optimistic about eventual peace, but worried about the short term.


# Ninety two percent of households say they're are unable to meet their basic needs.
# More than half feel the world has forgotten Somalia.

# As for al Shabab - the opposition - a full 71% of respondents see them as a force for bad.
# Seventy-two percent are unwilling to see them in power.

# Just over half of all respondents believe African Union peacekeepers now controlling roughly half the city can end years of conflict in Somalia.

# Fifty-seven percent of the randomly selected households live in makeshift camps under plastic or iron sheeting.
# Forty-one percent are illiterate.
# In a country with nothing resembling a social safety net - only 27% of those interviewed consider themselves unemployed.
# And one percent, retired.

Read the blog entry here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/andrewharding/2010/11/going_to_mogadishu.html

Well, what I don't understand is how they seem to have the support of the public yet control nothing.

Mogadishu citizens are a really war weary bloc, I think they are the world's biggest survivors.

I'm glad the inhabitants of mogadishu are rejecting Al shabab (a terrorist organisation the only viable opposition? wtf?:lol:)

Monday and Tuesday ? then you may join her.:) read her , good night stories.

I aun't playa like u?

Poll from the BBC conducted in Mogadishu




Read the blog entry here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/andrewharding/2010/11/going_to_mogadishu.html

Now, do u believe us or you'll let nationalism get in ur way?

What are you talking about?

It seems to me that contrary to what you all say here on this board, Mogadishu residents are not as hostile to AMISOM as you tell us.

They really aren't the issue though (no offense to them), unfortunately Somali citizens have no choice but to go either way that is less violent.

The real obstacle is getting Al Shabab to stop.

IMO, I think it will have to be through negotiation and power-sharing rather than brute force.

What are you talking about?

It seems to me that contrary to what you all say here on this board, Mogadishu residents are not as hostile to AMISOM as you tell us.

polls aren't 100% accurate.

The BBC didn't ask the whole city.

Only national election is what i respect.

So what were you talking about with me believing you then? Obviously the poll was agreeing with some point you were making.

I am horrified to see on my eyes the daily brutality and mass killing by Amisom forces in Mogadishu city. On 17th November 2010 when the people of city were rejoicing the festive time of Eid and hoping for better future Amisom forces deliberately targeted most populous Bakaara Market and killed more than twenty people and wounded over Fifty people.

This is not what Amisom came for and suppose to do in Mogadishu. Its mandate was to protect civilians and government institutions against deadly insurgency, however it is proven that Amisom is killing far more civilians than al Shabeb since at the start of 2010 and this must stop whatever the situation is.

To the United Nation

It is the responsibility of the United Nation to protect civilian population in Mogadishu against any harm, although UN Somalia enjoy their relative and comfort offices in Nairobi and facilitate well paid African Union army in Mogadishu, It is crystal clear it is indirectly participating the daily massacre of Somali civilian in Mogadishu. It is therefore abhorrent that the moral authority to behave such indifference attitude while crime against humanity is being carried out by their partners in Somalia.

I urge United Nation to speak up and tell Amisom forces to stop shelling and murdering defenseless civilian that can’t move out the city, otherwise one day every official who facilitate this heinous crime to continue will face the consequences that occurred in their negligence.

African Union

Your forces miserably failed in Mogadishu and you killed innocent civilians, the only option left now either face the rebels in better way and deal with and stop daily indiscriminate shelling of the civilian population or leave the city once for all. I believe whoever you left in this city will be better and peaceful than your daily deadly shelling and mass killing. At least Let al-Shabeb rule it and impose their Sharia theology and I bet there will not be a single incident that 20 people being killed in one second. One day African Union should be answerable in their involvement of human rights abuse and mass killing in Somalia.

To the Somali People

I can’t measure how Somali nation being degraded in the world stage, we became the face of the worthless nation and there is no ever lowest point we can reach. From America to Africa to Asia there is no one single thing that would be pleased to hear in the association with Somali name. For god sake stop the killing and tribalism and think how our children and their children can life in dignify way. Neither African nor Arab can make peace in Somalia unless we get together and stop African killing machines in Mogadishu, otherwise we shall reach a point that all Mogadishu inhabitant are decimated by Ugandan led forces and then may bring new people to life in their place. There is no other logic I can think of.

How were they able to conduct the poll anyway? I thought BBC was expelled in Mogadishu a few months ago by Al Shabab.

So what were you talking about with me believing you then? Obviously the poll was agreeing with some point you were making.

I think alot of people in Mogadisho would like to see Amisom leave.

Apparently, at least according to the poll, a slight majority think they can deliver peace so that contradicts your theory.

How were they able to conduct the poll anyway? I thought BBC was expelled in Mogadishu a few months ago by Al Shabab.

Good question.

Maybe they asked the fake MP's and the TFG soldiers.

Good question.

Maybe they asked the fake MP's and the TFG soldiers.

True. :lol:

People in Mogadishu may be living below their means but their intelligence shouldn't be insulted by that poll. In a million years they wouldn't vote in that pattern.

It just doesn't make sense at all.

While both the government and the militants throw their fair share of violence into the fray, the militants have also managed to organize public events, build institutions and do some charity work. There is quite literally not one positive initiative the government has undertaken, the most utterly confusing thing to me as well is how the government hasn't even done a single PR campaign to build a support base (not the fictional one in the BBC report). It is inconceivable where any sane person could have support for the government.

Above all, I watched the documentary footage from Abesha's link, the guy was under AU protection in the few government-controlled neighborhoods, the entire report happened within a tiny sliver inside the government's 2km zone, an area inhabited solely by president Shariif's hardcore clan supporters. Even still according to the report 30% of Shariif's own base do not support his mission. The report was vastly incomplete if even real.

The "government" had a chance to redeem itself with Sharif but they squandered it.

I think doing more than saying "we aren't Al Shabab!" is needed to gain support among the masses.

The "government" had a chance to redeem itself with Sharif but they squandered it.

I think doing more than saying "we aren't Al Shabab!" is needed to gain support among the masses.

They need to realize that there is no such thing as political correctness in Somalia. If Hitler waltzes into Mogadishu today and joins the war but also manages to build some houses in his territory, he will get a support base. If utterly useless warlords like Aidiid got the kind of massive support that he did then people will not look far before they put their weight behind groups like Al-Shabaab if they've managed to do some public work. The TFG has forgotten this. They think words like democracy ring a bell to the average Somali, they need to realize that filling a few stomachs or giving away free land can win them more support than keywords from American political lectures, even some basic policing duties or a visit to the refugee camps could do the job. But why do we continue to discuss the endless scenarios that were possible in 2004/05/06/07/08, we need to realize that the time window has long closed and its time to move forward with what we have now, the TFG can't be salvaged, people should just work to reform Al-Shabaab's radical attitude and take things from that point. Its like trying to fix a broken car when there's another car in the garage that just needs an oil change before it can be driven to work.

Interesting update on how expat Somalis are playing a leading role:

Somali prime minister prioritizes; UB graduate hoping to improve his homeland
Jay Rey. Buffalo News. Buffalo, N.Y.: Nov 28, 2010. pg. A.1

Copyright Buffalo News Nov 28, 2010

The story of Mohamed A. Mohamed is extraordinary: A guy with a family, house in the suburbs and a state job in Buffalo ends up as prime minister of Somalia.

Unfortunately, this is no fairy tale.

Somalia may be the largest humanitarian crisis in the world. Pirates roam the waters, kidnappers lie in wait and rebel militants rule much of the country. There's recurring drought, more than a third of the population relies on food aid and infant mortality is among the highest in the world.

What's worse, the country has become a breeding ground for terrorists, making the future of this nation on the Horn of Africa an international dilemma.

And there, tasked with the Herculean job of stabilizing the most unstable of countries, is a guy from Buffalo -- a University at Buffalo graduate, a father of four from Grand Island, a state Department of Transportation employee with an office on Main Street.

"It's not easy," said Mohamed, 48. "There has not been an effective government for 20 years, and you're fighting against a highly effective al-Qaida regime without Western support. It's very, very difficult."

Mohamed spoke briefly with The Buffalo News by phone from the Somali capital of Mogadishu, where he has been since October, when this relative unknown took Somalia by surprise and was appointed prime minister.

His sudden, improbable rise began in September.

Mohamed, a Somali native who resettled in Buffalo more than 20 years ago, traveled to New York City, where he managed to speak with Somalia's president, Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed, who was giving a speech at the United Nations.

"When the president came to New York, I visited him to give him some ideas and suggestions about how the Somali community can be helpful to the government and their homeland," Mohamed said.

"At the time, he was looking for candidates for prime minister. I gave him some suggestions, also my background and experience working for the government of Somalia in the past, and he thought I might be a candidate," Mohamed said. "He asked me to submit my resume. I was shocked."

He has called on a friend from Amherst to help.

Mohamed recently appointed an 18-member cabinet, which included Abdiweli M. Ali, of Amherst.

Ali, a fellow Somali, Harvard graduate and an associate professor of economics at Niagara University since 2003, will serve as Somalia's minister of planning and international cooperation.

"I know he's very capable and highly respected," Mohamed said. "We need someone who can do some economic forecasting and planning. I thought he'd be very good at that."

Mohamed spoke mostly about the problems facing Somalia, and what he wants to do as prime minister, a position that lasts only until August.

"My first priority is to provide law and order, and to bring peace and stability to Somalia," Mohamed said. "The second thing is to create an effective government without any corruption. There's a lot of corruption."

It's an overwhelming job, and way too big for someone who has lived outside Somalia nearly half his life and has no experience in international politics, said one foreign policy analyst. For the sake of Somalia, and international order, one hopes Mohamed can accomplish more than his "hapless predecessors" did in the 15 interim Somali regimes since 1991, wrote J. Peter Pham, a professor at James Madison University.

But don't count on it.

"In statecraft, it is generally not prudent to count on miracles happening," wrote Pham, vice president of the National Committee on American Foreign Policy in New York City. "Given the enormous challenges the new prime minister faces -- to say nothing about his rather flawed record to date -- a backup plan is definitely called for."

Struggling for support

The country of 9 million people is roughly the size of Texas, and has not had a central government since 1991, when the president was overthrown and much of this coastal nation along the Indian Ocean was thrust into lawlessness and warfare.

A U.N.-backed transitional government was set up, but is generally seen as weak, corrupt and headed by ineffective leaders who have failed time and again to reconcile a nation divided by clans.

"The root cause is always the same," said Hodan Isse, a Somali native and finance professor at the University at Buffalo. "Each government that was established, they mostly thought about their own self-interest, empowering their own clans and getting themselves rich."

In reality, the fragile transitional government -- guarded by several-thousand African peacekeepers -- controls only a small portion of the southern capital, and fights for survival against an Islamic insurgent movement.

The al-Qaida-connected Al-Shabaab dominates much of central and southern Somalia.

"They are free to move around, because they are in control," Mohamed said. "My government is serious about destroying this group, but I don't think we can do it without the resources."

In that sense, Mohamed said, Somalia is not unlike Afghanistan, but the country struggles to get more financial support from abroad.

"The only way you can get a job is to join the army," Mohamed said, "and if we don't have the resources to pay a decent salary, they will join Al-Shabaab."

Can he handle his new role?

Mohamed remains positive, as he tries to build an army and build morale.

"Everything I do here is a success," Mohamed said, "because there's nothing as far as government institutions."

'A very good guy'

Mohamed has a knack for positioning himself, beginning as a young man working in the office of the Somali Embassy in Washington during the late 1980s.

His country's political upheaval prevented him from returning home, and he sought asylum in the United States, where he eventually earned citizenship.

He resettled in Buffalo, where he graduated with a bachelor's degree in history from UB in 1993, and worked his way into local political circles.

He served as a commissioner for the Buffalo Municipal Housing Authority, then was a case manager for City Hall's lead-abatement program under the Masiello administration. Mohamed worked on Joel Giambra's Erie County executive campaign, and in 2000 landed a job as minority business coordinator in county government.

"He was a good listener, he had good leadership skills and he understood American politics," Giambra said. "He had a desire to be helpful to the people from his homeland that were here, and he became their advocate."

Mohamed became a leader in the Somali and refugee communities in Buffalo.

"He's a very good guy, very honest," said Mohamed Haji, 26, of Hamburg.

"He's soft-spoken," said Hassan Farah, 24, of Buffalo, "but he's very persuasive."

A civil rights manager with the DOT since 2002, Mohamed earned a master's in American Studies from UB last year and had aspirations of one day seeking state office, said his younger brother, Hassan.

But Mohamed always kept one eye on his homeland, where he still had ties to officials and his clan in the south.

"He was very reluctant to go, but he finally decided," Hassan Mohamed said. "I'm very proud of him, and I hope he helps Somalia, because Somalia has been suffering for a very long time."

The situation is dangerous and volatile.

Is he scared?

"No," Mohamed said. "If I was scared, I wouldn't be here."

A community victory

Mohamed has brought pride to the local Somali community, which has grown by the hundreds in recent years as more refugees are resettled in upstate cities like Buffalo.

Somalis recently celebrated their homeland's new prime minister in an Amherst banquet hall.

"It's like a victory party," Haji said. "It's the same way I felt about Barack Obama being elected president."

Mohamed's success will ultimately depend on whether he can win the confidence of the Somali people and work with the 500-plus members of parliament, Isse said.

But so far, she likes what she sees from her friend, Mohamed.

He has included Somali women in the dialogue, spoke out against child soldiering and reduced the size of his cabinet from 42 to 18, she said.

And she liked his choice of cabinet members: her husband is Ali, the cabinet member from Niagara.

Friends also point to the recent release of a British husband and wife, who were captured by Somali pirates.

"I don't know the details," said Warren Whitlock, Mohamed's boss at the DOT, "but I would have to believe Mohamed played a significant role in the release of that British couple."

Mohamed misses his wife, Zeinab, and four children, ages 8 to 19, who have remained behind in Western New York.

So why go back? Why take the job?

How could he not, Mohamed said.

"When I hear piracy, when I hear children dying, when I hear starvation, when I hear al-Qaida functioning there, all of these things bother me," Mohamed said. "I thought that I had some responsibility to come back here and contribute."

^^ I encourage the efforts of this buffalo somali guy, hope more somalis will follow his course and actually give something back to their native country. (Somalia needs an Israel aliyah type mass exodus back to the motherland)

Ironically a few local Somalis that I know here knew the guy. He was a pretty important figure in the (tiny) Somali community here.

Yeah, he has a big house in Grand Island, worked for the Department of Transportation. I know of him (although not personally).

I actually know of some of the people who were interviewed in the article too! :shocked: This is all too creepy.

I actually know of some of the people who were interviewed in the article too! :shocked: This is all too creepy.


Well you never know: Xusein might be the next to join the new Somali leadership team!

The "Buffalo" guy, Somalia's new prime minister, is just there to get paid, he's no different than the idiots who brought Ethiopia into the country a few years ago. The man just saw an opportunity to make a few million dollars and he'll jump on it, a few thousand people will be displaced in the process. For the sake of the people of Mogadishu, I hope a bullet finds its way in his head.

^^ :rofl:
don't worry its just a matter of time, sh*ts happen every two seconds in somalia . I remember when i had faith in this new sheick sharif president, i thought there they had a new leader with a vision (suddently a new islamist group popped out of nowhere, al shabah?), i was like oh no, then somebody told me T.I.S, and i said whaa? This Is Somalia :)

Well you never know: Xusein might be the next to join the new Somali leadership team!

its now obvious someone has a huge ship on his shoulder.

It was an off-hand compliment during a January 2007 dinner meeting between Abu Dhabi crown prince Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, plus staff, and then-U.S. Central Commander boss General John Abizaid. But Al Nayhan’s jocular praise, as reported in WikiLeaks’ trove of leaked diplomatic cables, is a rare admission that the United States played a central role in the disastrous December 2006 Ethiopian invasion of Somalia, a move that ultimately emboldened the very Islamic extremists the U.S. and Ethiopia had hoped to squash.

“The Somalia job was fantastic,” Al Nahyan interjected between discussions of Iran, Saudi Arabia and the prince’s desire to buy Reaper drones for his air force. At the time of Al Nahyan’s comment, the dust was just settling from Ethiopia’s Blitzkrieg-style assault toward Mogadishu. Some 50,000 Ethiopian troops, supported by T-55 tanks, Hind helicopters and Su-27 jet fighters, had cut a bloody swath through the lightly-armed forces of the Islamic Courts Union, an alliance of mostly nationalist Islamic fighters that prior to the invasion had controlled much of Somalia.

The Somali attack had surprised outside observers. Ethiopia and Somalia had been rivals a long time, but no one had expected such brutal fighting, and so suddenly. It was fairly obvious that Ethiopia had received significant help — even urging — for its invasion. For one, Ethiopia’s air force did not appear capable of coordinated air strikes in support of on-the-move ground troops; it seemed likely that the Su-27s were piloted by Russian or Ukrainian mercenaries — a time-honored tradition in Africa. What’s more, Ethiopia’s army didn’t possess the intelligence or logistical skill for long-range operations. Those, not coincidentally, are particular American strengths.

Washington certainly had a motive to get involved in Somalia. There was growing concern in the White House and the Pentagon that Somalia’s Islamists might ally themselves with Al Qaeda and turn to international terrorism. Already with two escalating wars on its own plate, the U.S. was in no position to openly lead its own large-scale attack on Somalia. It’d have been far simpler to simply sponsor somebody else to do the dirty work. Enter Ethiopia.

In early January following the invasion, USA Today’s Barbara Slavin reported on Washington’s extensive behind-the-scenes support for Ethiopian troops. “The ties include intelligence sharing, arms aid and training,” Slavin noted. A couple days later, The Washington Post’s Pauline Jelinek, citing anonymous sources, described U.S. Special Forces accompanying Ethiopian troops. CBS news revealed that U.S. Air Force gunships were active over southern Somalia during the Ethiopian blitz. Through all the reporting, U.S. officials remained vague or silent on the subject of Washington’s involvement. All the same, evidence was mounting that the U.S. had played a leading role in the Ethiopian invasion. Journalists only strongly suspected it, but Abu Dhabi prince Al Nayhan apparently knew it for certain, if his praise of “the Somalia job” was any indication.


Three years later, it’s clear the Ethiopian invasion was a bad idea. The attack rallied Somalis of all stripes and politics against the invaders, ultimately boosting support for fringe Islamic groups that now had a clear enemy in the Ethiopians and their suspected American puppet-masters. Violence mounted as the Ethiopians settled in for a bloody, two-year occupation.

When the Ethiopians withdrew in 2009, the Islamists rushed to fill the vacuum. A year later, the Al Shabab Islamic group, successor to the Islamic Courts, conducted its first international terror attack. Last month, a Somali-born American teen plotted to explode a bomb in Portland. Today, U.S. Special Forces continue to target terrorists in Somalia. There are arguably more of them than ever, thanks in part to the botched Ethiopian invasion. “We’ve made a lot of mistakes and Ethiopia’s entry in 2006 was not a really good idea,” U.S. diplomat Donald Yamamoto said in March.

Fantastic job, indeed.

Jafar you've been told over and over to post your source.

Jafar you've been told over and over to post your source.

I think ur mistaken me with someone else.

Really?

Anyway, post a source otherwise we can't take the posting seriously.

Really?

Anyway, post a source otherwise we can't take the posting seriously.

wired.com is the source of this article.

Here (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/12/wikileaked-cable-confirms-u-s-secret-somalia-op/?utm_source=co2hog) is the source, a blog post at wired.

Thanks. It was obvious it was an opinion piece.

Here (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/12/wikileaked-cable-confirms-u-s-secret-somalia-op/?utm_source=co2hog) is the source, a blog post at wired.

:cheers:

You know what i mean?:lol:

Well you never know: Xusein might be the next to join the new Somali leadership team!

Not in a trillion years. I don't even think I'd fit in since I'm from Somaliland. :lol:

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2010/12/01/general-af-somalia-military-force_8174270.html

A mysterious Muslim donor country is backing Puntland with 120 armed trucks which have just been delivered, as well as SIX small aircraft, most likely in the hopes of extracting oil and minerals, they are also paying for the training of a 1,050 strong militia. Already this rich donor has spent $10 million on Puntland's new army. The son of the region's leader has stated that they're "fighting piracy" in Galgala Mountains, which is a total joke considering that pirates are in Eyl while only oil can be found near Galgala, looks like Puntland is arming itself under the guise of piracy but has only received armed trucks and aircraft but no new marine craft. Obama's staff has also shown concern but Puntland's leader has vowed to continue with his weapons spree. Note that the region's leader is currently in Kuwait, and the region has been receiving a lot of aid in building hospitals and schools from the Kuwaiti charity fund.

Thoughts on this?

Khaleejis. Perhaps Qatar or UAE or Kuwait. Not many Muslim countries have ample money just around to throw it in a bottomless pit (Somalia).

Yeah, my thoughts too. At first I thought it might've been Turkey since Turkey has also built a relationship with Puntland recently but they don't have money. Its not UAE because those guys want nothing to do with Somalia. It is definitely Kuwait or Qatar, probably both but I know certainly that Kuwait is involved. Both Kuwait and Qatar have built schools across the region, and there was a story some years ago about a Kuwaiti royal building a house in Sheikh town of Somaliland region.

They want a slice of the pie because it has been said that there is a possible 10 billion barrels of oil in Puntland. Don't be surprised to see a Kuwait Oil Company or Qatar Petroleum sign there in the future, and signing deals with run Puntland on a collision course with the TFG like it did in the past...

This "fighting piracy" idea for the weapons is a joke. They want to secure the resources before anyone else gets there. :)

Is 10 billion barrels of Oil a lot?

It's a big find but it's peanuts compared to the fields in Arabia.

But since Somalia is unexplored there's likely several times more on land and offshore.

I know there is a lot of potential oil in Mudug too.

This "fighting piracy" idea for the weapons is a joke. They want to secure the resources before anyone else gets there. :)

In the interview, Faroole's son says "We're fighting pirates in Galgala" -- :lol:

The pirate bases are in Eyl and Gara'ad way down south in Nugaal and Mudug but the new "naval" academy is being located in Bender Ziyaada which is a 10 minute drive from Galgala and other strategic oil locales. The brilliant thing here is that the Puntland regime is using piracy as a cover to bring in arms, CIA help, and other factors to secure territory.


Is 10 billion barrels of Oil a lot?

Considering that Angola, Algeria, Mexico and Brazil all have between 12 and 15 billion barrels of oil and considering that Sudan only has 7 billion barrels....its quite a bit. Estimates put Puntland at between 5 and 10 billion barrels, which for a population floating around 1-2 million, is going to go a long way if used properly. The one thing that will create equity is Somalia's clan system which means that if oil isn't shared properly you will hear about armed rebellion, so I trust that the heads of the region will give everyone something to munch on.

It's a big find but it's peanuts compared to the fields in Arabia.

But since Somalia is unexplored there's likely several times more on land and offshore.

I know there is a lot of potential oil in Mudug too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves

15 billion barrels of Oil would put Somalia up there with Qatar, with a small population. They would heavily benefit from it; however, without a government there shouldn’t be any exploitation

In the interview, Faroole's son says "We're fighting pirates in Galgala" -- :lol:

The pirate bases are in Eyl and Gara'ad way down south in Nugaal and Mudug but the new "naval" academy is being located in Bender Ziyaada which is a 10 minute drive from Galgala and other strategic oil locales. The brilliant thing here is that the Puntland regime is using piracy as a cover to bring in arms, CIA help, and other factors to secure territory.




Considering that Angola, Algeria, Mexico and Brazil all have between 12 and 15 billion barrels of oil and considering that Sudan only has 7 billion barrels....its quite a bit. Estimates put Puntland at between 5 and 10 billion barrels, which for a population floating around 1-2 million, is going to go a long way if used properly. The one thing that will create equity is Somalia's clan system which means that if oil isn't shared properly you will hear about armed rebellion, so I trust that the heads of the region will give everyone something to munch on.

:lol: @ Faroole's son.

He lives in my City and do did Faroole family. We attended his meeting for his bid to be Puntland leader since my mother sides of the Family are all Puntlanders technically. I actually support Puntland push and hopefully they recapture the whole SSC regions without much fuss in the near future

This is my own personal opinion, but I don't think oil would be a good thing for Somalia.

I think it would fuel conflict between clans in territories with it, take corruption to stratospheric highs (and they're already very corrupt), and cause even more "foreign interest" in Somalia. We already see what oil and corruption has done to other African states and I don't think Somalia would sidestep them any day.

In the interview, Faroole's son says "We're fighting pirates in Galgala" -- :lol:

The pirate bases are in Eyl and Gara'ad way down south in Nugaal and Mudug but the new "naval" academy is being located in Bender Ziyaada which is a 10 minute drive from Galgala and other strategic oil locales. The brilliant thing here is that the Puntland regime is using piracy as a cover to bring in arms, CIA help, and other factors to secure territory.


I would think using it to "fight Islamists" would be better. AY's brother was recently shot in Gaalkayco. What a joke.

There won't be a fight over the so-called SSC regions, both Silanyo and Faroole are above that noise. Why do you think the SSC card hasn't been pulled for weeks now? Puntland's leader has met with SSC representatives in Nairobi and diaspora leaders of the Galgala-based communities about an oil-sharing deal. If you were following the news recently, Puntland's vice president created a peace accord between rival clans in Ufeyn, one of the largest exploration sites in the region. There is also this other matter, a few weeks ago when Somaliland's mayor of Las'Anood town visited Garowe to work out another peace deal to turn over the area to the Puntland regime. Things are being worked out in the form of money, not guns.

I thought Faroole was against SSC.

There won't be a fight over the so-called SSC regions, both Silanyo and Faroole are above that noise. Why do you think the SSC card hasn't been pulled for weeks now? Puntland's leader has met with SSC representatives in Nairobi and diaspora leaders of the Galgala-based communities about an oil-sharing deal. If you were following the news recently, Puntland's vice president created a peace accord between rival clans in Ufeyn, one of the largest exploration sites in the region. There is also this other matter, a few weeks ago when Somaliland's mayor of Las'Anood town visited Garowe to work out another peace deal to turn over the area to the Puntland regime. Things are being worked out in the form of money, not guns.

That’s great to hear, Surly majority of the civilians in SSC regions are pro-Puntland would rather been under control of their fellow brothers

I thought Faroole was against SSC.

He is, but they are one of the factions that have some influence over their kin in Las'Anood. Las'Anood is the site of a major oil site along the Nugaal valley. The oil exploration a few years back stopped as a result of the ongoing insecurity in that part of the Nugaal oil block. Faroole has no choice but to woo all sides of the Sool & Sanaag regions to come to the drawing table and give way to Puntland so as to allow concessions. Now, considering that funding and public projects is the only thing that has wooed Las'Anood to join Somaliland, I think with the right incentives they will walk over to Puntland's side, I just hope Somaliland's leadership drops the never-ending independence charade and joins Puntland in moving forward with bigger objectives and relaying some support for Somalia since it is the only thing allowing Puntland to carry on with these projects.

He is, but they are one of the factions that have some influence over their kin in Las'Anood. Las'Anood is the site of a major oil site along the Nugaal valley. The oil exploration a few years back stopped as a result of the ongoing insecurity in that part of the Nugaal oil block. Faroole has no choice but to woo all sides of the Sool & Sanaag regions to come to the drawing table and give way to Puntland so as to allow concessions.


Interesting, I didn't know that...I just knew that he considered SSC a threat to his power so it seemed weird that he met with them.


Now, considering that funding and public projects is the only thing that has wooed Las'Anood to join Somaliland, I think with the right incentives they will walk over to Puntland's side, I just hope Somaliland's leadership drops the never-ending independence charade and joins Puntland in moving forward with bigger objectives and relaying some support for Somalia since it is the only thing allowing Puntland to carry on with these projects.

I don't think that Somaliland will drop it anytime soon (actually with the safe election I'd say that it's probably stronger now than it has been in years amongst many people I know), but I think Silanyo and his administration are on the initial stage of trying to be in good terms with the other Somalis.

I've just read the latest news and it is becoming very apparent that Kuwait is behind Puntland's new developments. Other than to provide weapons for security operations they have also pledged to help with the completion of the airports in Bosaso & Garowe as well as the construction of new transportation and civil infrastructure. A new factory in Las Qoray town has also been agreed on. Even if oil drilling never begins, the region will certainly get something out of it.

Kuwait is one of the few rich Arab countries that I would say has good relations with Somalis (Qatar being the other one, the rest :down: ), and the investment is good news, but I know that they have ulterior motives for this. They want to get there first.

Oil and gas will be dangerous for Somalia.
I really hope we do not have oil or at the very least if we do have it. Some agreement is signed by all in Somalia (including Somaliland/Puntland) to not explore it for a long period of time.

Another law or agreement should be passed stating it cannot be owned by non Somalis. I do not want non Africans controlling our country even more or our resources.

That's never going to happen. As we type in Skyscrapercity, they are already making deals.

That's never going to happen. As we type in Skyscrapercity, they are already making deals.
:ohno:

God I get angry at some of those idiot Somalis who are signing away their countries wealth to other countries (Who the hell gave them the authority anyway?!) and for what? A bit of money?
I hope they choke on it :mad:

Well, I've been wishing they choke for years for other reasons, hasn't happened yet. :P

Eventually when the Islamist fad evaporates, I think the war will continue on conflicts of resource control. Water, oil, farms, you name it.

Xusein, your suspicions are fact, Kuwait is looking for oil indeed.

Since at least the mid 1990s after the collapse of the old government, small exploration companies filled the void of Conoco-Phillips oil drilling in Nugaal valley. They went in and out until 2005 when they signed a deal with then-leader 'Adde Muuse, over the Dharoor Block (Bari-Sanaag) and the Nugaal Block (Nugaal-Sool). The Puntland leadership went all the way to Jowhar to get Abdullahi Yusuf's signature but he refused. In 2007, Abdullahi Yusuf himself went to Beijing and signed off on an offshore exploration agreement with the Chinese state-owned oil company for drilling rights off of Mudug's coast. Fast forward to the Istanbul conferences and the Gaalkacyo Accord months ago and it now grants full legal exploration rights to Puntland under the premise of federal-but-united administrative framework.

NOW, to the present. Aside from China, which hasn't yet exercised its privileges over Somalia's shores, only a handful of poor and small Canadian & Australian exploration companies have ever looked at Puntland's oil potential. BUT, speculation began to mount tremendously and all of the major spectators rushed to be the first on the ground, and the Kuwaitis realized some time ago that only they had the money to go after Puntland's oil. It was a game of speculation basically, like bidding, until someone bold enough noticed the lack of competition and would jump the gun.

When the Kuwaitis visited months ago on a routine charity project, they met with Puntland leaders about business opportunities, and natural resources was suggested by a bold local businessmen. When Faroole visited Yemen earlier to meet with its leader (surprising), many suggested that he was having backdoor meetings with Arab officials with deeper pockets than the Yemenis, and since the real rich Arabs can't be seen meeting with Somali factional leaders they chose Yemen as a neutral spot to meet.

As far as drilling is concerned, I think the Kuwaitis are serious about getting Puntland safe and its population neutralized. The budget to train Puntland's newest military program is 35% of Djibouti's entire military expenditure, something serious is going on. I think they are trying to turn Puntland, and possibly all of Somalia, into a project of sorts, and trying to win favor so they can have greater influence politically since the UAE dominates the economic horizons of the world's ports.

Well, maybe we will see if they gain ownership of Bosaso port. :lol: Even though they're doing this for themselves, Kuwait is a lot less poisonous than if other nations (which I won't name but I think you know) were doing it. Probably they are taking a cue from the Chinese, don't give a damn but give us your resources. I can go with that ideology but Somali politicians have a problem of being lapdogs to foreigners.

I also though most of those previous oil deals were rubbish, they sign and do a bit of exploring but then we never hear about them again!

Well, maybe we will see if they gain ownership of Bosaso port. :lol: Even though they're doing this for themselves, Kuwait is a lot less poisonous than if other nations (which I won't name but I think you know) were doing it. Probably they are taking a cue from the Chinese, don't give a damn but give us your resources. I can go with that ideology but Somali politicians have a problem of being lapdogs to foreigners.

Good that you mentioned Bosaso, 2 years ago in the midst of the oil frenzy, Dubai's industrial giant Lootah Group signed a $46 million deal with then-leader 'Adde Muuse to manage Bosaso port and create an entire free trade zone that would encompass management of taxi services, airport services, and merchant activities, and recently Punt Air was created, the company set to manage the air services.

I agree that Somali leaders have lapdog syndrome, but the fact that the International Crisis Group is worried about Puntland's renegade lifestyle and the Obama admin as well as UN security council of cursed Faroole's weapons spree, it shows that maybe the region is pursuing its own interests now. And Kuwaiti investment is definitely better than "others."

I also though most of those previous oil deals were rubbish, they sign and do a bit of exploring but then we never hear about them again!

I thought the same too, but while the little companies dug, all of the big players stood to the sidelines waiting till the situation got better, but rumors flew of actions being taken by drilling companies and then everyone started to rush to the ground, Kuwait having already planted eggs in Somalia got an early start; they had farms in the south going back to the 70s or 60s and stayed active through Somali welfare projects across society---they had the quickest connections to Somalia and the oil deals. I think things are getting real, and very fast now. If oil is being dug in Kurdistan and minerals being extracted in Afghanistan, I see no reason for these same risk takers to skip out on Puntland if the reward is big enough.

Good that you mentioned Bosaso, 2 years ago in the midst of the oil frenzy, Dubai's industrial giant Lootah Group signed a $46 million deal with then-leader 'Adde Muuse to manage Bosaso port and create an entire free trade zone that would encompass management of taxi services, airport services, and merchant activities, and recently Punt Air was created, the company set to manage the air services.


:shocked: Never heard of this! That is probably the biggest individual deal in all of Somalia!


I agree that Somali leaders have lapdog syndrome, but the fact that the International Crisis Group is worried about Puntland's renegade lifestyle and the Obama admin as well as UN security council of cursed Faroole's weapons spree, it shows that maybe the region is pursuing its own interests now. And Kuwaiti investment is definitely better than "others."
Well, I'll believe it when Faroole stops going to Addis Ababa like a servant.


I thought the same too, but while the little companies dug, all of the big players stood to the sidelines waiting till the situation got better, but rumors flew of actions being taken by drilling companies and then everyone started to rush to the ground, Kuwait having already planted eggs in Somalia got an early start; they had farms in the south going back to the 70s or 60s and stayed active through Somali welfare projects across society---they had the quickest connections to Somalia and the oil deals. I think things are getting real, and very fast now. If oil is being dug in Kurdistan and minerals being extracted in Afghanistan, I see no reason for these same risk takers to skip out on Puntland if the reward is big enough.

So I guess Kuwait is clean then. I don't even care if they take the oil, just they need to make sure investments are done and even try to keep the corrupt officials from skimming it (doubtful but Kuwait isn't a corrupt place). Perhaps they should be one of the top nations to look at for overall investments once Somalia as a whole calms down. If they can do that in Puntland, imagine what they can do in the southern regions.

Good that you mentioned Bosaso, 2 years ago in the midst of the oil frenzy, Dubai's industrial giant Lootah Group signed a $46 million deal with then-leader 'Adde Muuse to manage Bosaso port and create an entire free trade zone that would encompass management of taxi services, airport services, and merchant activities, and recently Punt Air was created, the company set to manage the air services.

Never heard of it neither. Interesting indeed! I like this kind of attitude, lets each region sort out its economic development for now until the situation settles in the South. And then when peace comes inshallah, Puntland as a state can continue this under a federal Somalia. Make Bosaso the economic center of the whole Northeastern Somalia with a good port and international airport.
And did Punt Air started operations? Puntavia was the former name of the actual Djibouti Airlines.

Let me add that the Lootah Group is present in Djibouti too, they're involved in construction and lighht manufacturing (mineral water, egg and chicken processing ect...).

Xusein, the AU hq and many organisation are located in that city, its not a sign of being a lapdog, it's like saying Cameron is one for going to Brussels. Faroole sought help from the International community in preserving stability and eradicating piracy, but was ignored, so he made deals with the Kuwaitis, who are willing to invest.

If I was the leader of Somalia, I would create an economy solely based on agriculture, fisheries, services and manufacturing(upgrade it from 10% to atleast 40%) etc, and leave all these dumb global lame duck organisations, instead I would pursue relations with other countries on an individual basis, regardless of their religious, cultural or ethnic background. I would then sell Somalia's oil $1 a barrel and crash reality on all these filthy rich decadent countries when global prices drop like a rock.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2010/12/01/general-af-somalia-military-force_8174270.html

A mysterious Muslim donor country is backing Puntland with 120 armed trucks which have just been delivered, as well as SIX small aircraft, most likely in the hopes of extracting oil and minerals, they are also paying for the training of a 1,050 strong militia. Already this rich donor has spent $10 million on Puntland's new army. The son of the region's leader has stated that they're "fighting piracy" in Galgala Mountains, which is a total joke considering that pirates are in Eyl while only oil can be found near Galgala, looks like Puntland is arming itself under the guise of piracy but has only received armed trucks and aircraft but no new marine craft. Obama's staff has also shown concern but Puntland's leader has vowed to continue with his weapons spree. Note that the region's leader is currently in Kuwait, and the region has been receiving a lot of aid in building hospitals and schools from the Kuwaiti charity fund.

Thoughts on this?


Piracy brings in about 150 million annually, mostly to Puntland. This is rather a bad development, granted that it's true. I hope these troops fail.

If you were following the news recently, Puntland's vice president created a peace accord between rival clans in Ufeyn, one of the largest exploration sites in the region. There is also this other matter, a few weeks ago when Somaliland's mayor of Las'Anood town visited Garowe to work out another peace deal to turn over the area to the Puntland regime. Things are being worked out in the form of money, not guns.

Can you substantiate your claims?

Also isn’t the military funding of Puntland against the UN resolution on Somalia?

Piracy brings in about 150 million annually, mostly to Puntland. This is rather a bad development, granted that it's true. I hope these troops fail.

:ohno:

Those troops need more assistance!

Can you substantiate your claims?

Part news headlines, part informal information. All fact. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Part news headlines, part informal information. All fact. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Ok. A lot of news is Somalia doesn’t have to documented to be facts, words sometimes is enough

http://www.capitaleritrea.com/wp-content/uploads/Puntland-Oil.jpg

Janub, can you pin point on this map where Galaga is?