Whats up all, this is my first post so if it posted in the wrong place, my bad ha. Im getting ready to finish up grad school (masters in Hydrology/Water Resources Management) in the U.S. I have been wanting to live abroad for a while and South Africa is one of the places that keeps catching my eye. Would it be relatively easy for me to get a job there with my degree? And how's living there? I understand there's crime and all that, but is it easy to avoid? Thanks for all the help ya'll.

I unfortunately can't comment on your chances of getting a job, even though someone with your skills is probably very much in need in this country.

Living in this country is awesome to say the least. Yes we have crime, but its mostly avoidable by just being aware of your surroundings. Its all worth it for the climate and the people really.

You could get in contact with the local water companies in the country (Umgeni Water, Rand Water, etc), they might be able to help you in terms of finding employment or at least pointing you in the right direction.

Thanks for the input. If I do end up being able to come should I learn one of the languages? I know a little Afrikaans from a friend of mine, but should I try and learn Xhosa or Zulu? Would that help any?

south africa is a beautiful country with nice weather and not to mention girls:banana: but i wouldnt recommend it as being a place to get a job in and the crime is really bad their if you have other choices theirs alot of other great countries to use that degree to.not just south africa like france,brazil,japan and not to mention england the best choice would be england because theirs alot of similarities over all SA is also a good choice the main language their is also english so you could go for it!!!!

south africa is a beautiful country with nice weather and not to mention girls:banana: but i wouldnt recommend it as being a place to get a job in and the crime is really bad their if you have other choices theirs alot of other great countries to use that degree to.not just south africa like france,brazil,japan and not to mention england the best choice would be england because theirs alot of similarities over all SA is also a good choice the main language their is also english so you could go for it!!!!

Are you even South African? Why are you talking over the south african people, if the guy is thinking about move there why do you have to shyt talk a country that isn't even yours. :ohno:

south africa is a beautiful country with nice weather and not to mention girls:banana: but i wouldnt recommend it as being a place to get a job in and the crime is really bad their if you have other choices theirs alot of other great countries to use that degree to.not just south africa like france,brazil,japan and not to mention england the best choice would be england because theirs alot of similarities over all SA is also a good choice the main language their is also english so you could go for it!!!!

Yea I thought of the places and South Africa is the one that seemd the most interesting to me (other than Brazil, girls:banana:). But thanks.

Are you even South African? Why are you talking over the south african people, if the guy is thinking about move there why do you have to shyt talk a country that isn't even yours. :ohno:


Do the defferent races get along better now or is there still tention?
As for the crime, my friend from Bloemfontein said he has never been a victim of crime an he's lived there his whole 22 years so im not insanely worried.

Do the defferent races get along better now or is there still tention?
As for the crime, my friend from Bloemfontein said he has never been a victim of crime an he's lived there his whole 22 years so im not insanely worried.

I forgot to ask but does the affirmative action law apply to me as well even though I would not be a citizen?

^^ yo where in texas u are from

^^ yo where in texas u are from

Frisco man.

Do the defferent races get along better now or is there still tention?
As for the crime, my friend from Bloemfontein said he has never been a victim of crime an he's lived there his whole 22 years so im not insanely worried.

Dude... 99% of people in this country have always got along just fine...

There will always be a fringe that causes tension from all sides, but most of us just want to live our lives and get along. Yes there are cultural differences but they won't go away any time soon, and if anything, they make living here and interacting with people more interesting.

Are you even South African? Why are you talking over the south african people, if the guy is thinking about move there why do you have to shyt talk a country that isn't even yours. :ohno:

WTF are you attacking.a troll again great :lol:i never said any thing bad about SA cant you read.ive lived their for two years and its hard to get a job im just recommending other countries that can reflex and have more options for the degree he has.WTF and at the end i told him to go for it,learn to read. trying to stir trouble damn FAIL TREWALY:lol:

Welcome to the boards, Sotex!

Here's my 2 cents bit...

SA is water-scarce country and the country is very short on qualified people with water-related qualifications and skills. I thus think there's lots of job prospects. You just need to know *where* to look. In my opinion, your best job prospects are with the major players involved in water-related affairs:

1. Statutory research bodies:

- the Water Research Commission; the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (especially in relation to acid mine draining), Mintek (SA's statutory mining research body, which also researches acid mine draining); the South African Bureau of Standards (in relation to water quality auditing [bottled and natural occurring], as well as solar water heating etc); Agricultural Research Council (soil and water science); Geosciences Research Council (applied groundwater research).

2. Water management / sale bodies

- Umgeni Water, Rand Water, etc. These bodies manage, amongst others, the countries dams and water supply.

3. National Government departments - The Department of Water and Forestry Affairs; the Department of Environmental Affairs

4. Local government level - all local governments are supposed to have trained personnel re: quality auditing and water use management. However, because of a skills shortage and small budgets / bad management (especially in smaller municipalities), many do not have such personnel.

5. National Parks and private game reserves - water management and water quality auditing.

6. Universities (various that focus on water-related and maritime affairs).

You need to be aware that SA has laws and policies (like many other countries) requiring that locals be given preference for jobs over foreigners (and non-whites ahead of whites), EXCEPT (usually, anyway) if there is a skills shortage and there are no relevant local candidates that satisfy the stated demographic criteria.

Re: languages - I think it's vital to obviously know English. In my opinion, practically, it would be good if you know Afrikaans as many of the current bodies tied to water-related affairs are headquartered in Pretoria and will likely have many staff who speak Afrikaans. If you are dealing with commercial farmers (for example, in the context of crop and water science or acid mine draining near farms), you will find that most speak Afrikaans. Afrikaans will also be good to know if you're planning to locate to Cape Town or Johannesburg, Pretoria, or Bloemfontein.

Knowing a local black language will be a plus but it would depend on where you choose to locate (Zulu for KwaZulu-Natal [Durban] and to a smaller extent (largely through migrant labour), Gauteng [Johannesburg and Pretoria], Xhosa for the Eastern Cape [Port Elizabeth] and Western Cape [Cape Town], etc). We have 11 national languages so choose the local black language you learn carefully.

Good luck!

Frisco man.

damn i was in frisco last year to watch the fc dallas play some mexican club...interesting to see u moving to this interesting country....south africa have always fancinated me....

Welcome to the boards, Sotex!

Here's my 2 cents bit...

SA is water-scarce country and the country is very short on qualified people with water-related qualifications and skills. I thus think there's lots of job prospects. You just need to know *where* to look. In my opinion, your best job prospects are with the major players involved in water-related affairs:

1. Statutory research bodies:

- the Water Research Commission; the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (especially in relation to acid mine draining), Mintek (SA's statutory mining research body, which also researches acid mine draining); the South African Bureau of Standards (in relation to water quality auditing [bottled and natural occurring], as well as solar water heating etc); Agricultural Research Council (soil and water science); Geosciences Research Council (applied groundwater research).

2. Water management / sale bodies

- Umgeni Water, Rand Water, etc. These bodies manage, amongst others, the countries dams and water supply.

3. National Government departments - The Department of Water and Forestry Affairs; the Department of Environmental Affairs

4. Local government level - all local governments are supposed to have trained personnel re: quality auditing and water use management. However, because of a skills shortage and small budgets / bad management (especially in smaller municipalities), many do not have such personnel.

5. National Parks and private game reserves - water management and water quality auditing.

6. Universities (various that focus on water-related and maritime affairs).

You need to be aware that SA has laws and policies (like many other countries) requiring that locals be given preference for jobs over foreigners (and non-whites ahead of whites), EXCEPT (usually, anyway) if there is a skills shortage and there are no relevant local candidates that satisfy the stated demographic criteria.

Re: languages - I think it's vital to obviously know English. In my opinion, practically, it would be good if you know Afrikaans as many of the current bodies tied to water-related affairs are headquartered in Pretoria and will likely have many staff who speak Afrikaans. If you are dealing with commercial farmers (for example, in the context of crop and water science or acid mine draining near farms), you will find that most speak Afrikaans. Afrikaans will also be good to know if you're planning to locate to Cape Town or Johannesburg, Pretoria, or Bloemfontein.

Knowing a local black language will be a plus but it would depend on where you choose to locate (Zulu for KwaZulu-Natal [Durban] and to a smaller extent (largely through migrant labour), Gauteng [Johannesburg and Pretoria], Xhosa for the Eastern Cape [Port Elizabeth] and Western Cape [Cape Town], etc). We have 11 national languages so choose the local black language you learn carefully.

Good luck!

Thanks man! Thats a lot of good information, thats actually part of the reason that I want to move there (the water shortage) cuz a friend of mine from there was telling me about it and how they need morepeople like that and engineers ect..So I thought it'd be pretty legit to help out. I know you might not be able to answer this but what is the salary there sually like?

^^ As far as I've heard, qualified hydrologists can make quite a bit of money. Heard of one quote doing one study on a small riverside development being around R100,000 (US$15,000). It also would not hurt to look into companies specializing in EIA (Environmental Impact Studies). These companies are becoming more and more important. For example, I know the Western Cape legislation is particularly strict when it comes to environmental guidelines for development.

You also would need to decide which place suits your personality best in South Africa. SA isn't a small place and various places are VERY different and the different cities are very different indeed...

Looking for something more LA or NYC-like in being a financial and events hub, go for a place like Johannesburg. RandWater that is their water supply company is the largest of its kind in the country.

Looking for something with a more west coast and California feel (climate, scenery and industry-wise) and a lifestyle-orientated economy, go for the Cape. Cape Town's a lot like San Francisco.

Looking for something sub-tropical and beach orientated with some Indian and Zulu culture thrown in; a place that's Miami-like, go for Durban (but they have topography unlike FL!).

Looking for something more rural and down-to-earth, not the best scenery but nice people (but Afrikaans almost mandatory); somewhere more like middle-America (they even have severe frost is winter to match somewhat), Bloemfontein may be it.

I am an American ex-pat living on a wine estate outside Cape Town and I absolutely love this country... would NEVER move back to Orlando! :)

^^ As far as I've heard, qualified hydrologists can make quite a bit of money. Heard of one quote doing one study on a small riverside development being around R100,000 (US$15,000). It also would not hurt to look into companies specializing in EIA (Environmental Impact Studies). These companies are becoming more and more important. For example, I know the Western Cape legislation is particularly strict when it comes to environmental guidelines for development.

You also would need to decide which place suits your personality best in South Africa. SA isn't a small place and various places are VERY different and the different cities are very different indeed...

Looking for something more LA or NYC-like in being a financial and events hub, go for a place like Johannesburg. RandWater that is their water supply company is the largest of its kind in the country.

Looking for something with a more west coast and California feel (climate, scenery and industry-wise) and a lifestyle-orientated economy, go for the Cape. Cape Town's a lot like San Francisco.

Looking for something sub-tropical and beach orientated with some Indian and Zulu culture thrown in; a place that's Miami-like, go for Durban (but they have topography unlike FL!).

Looking for something more rural and down-to-earth, not the best scenery but nice people (but Afrikaans almost mandatory); somewhere more like middle-America (they even have severe frost is winter to match somewhat), Bloemfontein may be it.

I am an American ex-pat living on a wine estate outside Cape Town and I absolutely love this country... would NEVER move back to Orlando! :)

I'll have to get used to $15,000 being a lot of money lol, Iguess its cheaper to live there than it is here?

I grew up in Alabama but live near Dallas now and my personality definitly suits the more rural-ish areas, from the places i've looked up, Mossel Bay, Stellenbosch, and places like that would probably be more to my liking, Bloemfontain seems to far from the coast and in the middle of nothing (no offence to those from Bloem), and Gauteng seems to have waaay to much crime. Have you experienced crime since you've been there?

Hi there,

I have been living in South Africa for 16 years now and I think crime is over exaggerated by foreign media. I lived in Bloemfontein for 10 years *cough cough* and its not middle of no where.. wait maybe it is.. :p Its the 5th largest city in SA. It is abit far from the coast and Job opportunities are scarce in Bloem (think bloem is similar to Alabama). But hey, if you live in Bloem, you can work in Lesotho (the water and mountain kingdom). Lesotho is currently building the Lesotho highland water project that will sell LOTS of water into South Africa.

Anyway, RomanSA has suggested good directions in finding a job. Cape Town (living here currently) and Durban will be a good place to live for a few years, you might never leave!

The cost of living is not that much compared to the US. Earning $3000 a month will get you very far :)

You just need to know where to go and where not to go in the cities. You will get used to it and people will tell you where you should not go in the major cities. This is the same as living in USA where some suburbs are dangerous. I don't think you should worry too much about crime. The more troublesome issue is to find a job. It isn't easy for foreigners to find a job here unless there's a real shortage of it (in your case, i think its a yes, we need you).

I'll have to get used to $15,000 being a lot of money lol, Iguess its cheaper to live there than it is here?

I grew up in Alabama but live near Dallas now and my personality definitly suits the more rural-ish areas, from the places i've looked up, Mossel Bay, Stellenbosch, and places like that would probably be more to my liking, Bloemfontain seems to far from the coast and in the middle of nothing (no offence to those from Bloem), and Gauteng seems to have waaay to much crime. Have you experienced crime since you've been there?

As the previous poster said, the cost of living is much cheaper. Everything in SA is cheaper, except luxuries and electronics. Thus, entertainment, food, general living etc. is less expensive. Electronics and vehicles are marginally more expensive unfortunately.

Not too much crime. I've had stuff stolen twice, but other than that... not much has happened to me. Also, always in an urban area (nothing out-of-the-ordinary for late-night in a big city). The rural Western Cape and Northern Cape are by FAR the safest places to live in SA with the lowest crime rate. Mossel Bay, George or Knysna could be amazing choices for places to live. Most beautiful coastline, mildest climate and semi-rural, but with lots of stuff to do. The area is called the Garden Route, but has some major water security issues, you may be needed there! :)

Actually, seems crime has been steadily dropping in Johannesburg... seems Pretoria has actually become quite crime-ridden in comparison over recent years. Bloem is far from most things; great people but a very unexciting place; imagine Lincoln, Nebraska.

The rural Western Cape and Northern Cape are by FAR the safest places to live in SA with the lowest crime rate.

I think Limpopo officially has the lowest crime rate in the country, those places you're talking about have quite a lot of alcohol-related violence.

To Sotex

Don't listen to these okes, come to Jozi!! It might be not be at the coast but damn this town is happening.

Advantages of working in Jozi

Best Pay in SA
Hectic Nightlife
Most advanced city in Africa, i.e. everything new in SA lands in Jozi first
Very cosmopolitan
Business Centre of Africa
If Cape Town is the most European city in SA, Joburg is the most American
LA lifestyle, i.e. good (great) weather, fast cars, big highways, everything is done on a large scale (go big or go home)
50% of SA's hot shot movers and shakers live in this town
Lastly Jozi is facing an imminent water crisis, basically ground water that has been contaminanted with toxins is rising to the surface, obviously we're working on a Joburg-esque solution, we'll probably find a way of turning the water into bubbly or something:cheers:

A few aspects of that post I'd disagree with... will respond properly later this evening...

cool looking forward to the response...

I think Limpopo officially has the lowest crime rate in the country, those places you're talking about have quite a lot of alcohol-related violence.

To Sotex

Don't listen to these okes, come to Jozi!! It might be not be at the coast but damn this town is happening.

Advantages of working in Jozi

Best Pay in SA
Hectic Nightlife
Most advanced city in Africa, i.e. everything new in SA lands in Jozi first
Very cosmopolitan
Business Centre of Africa
If Cape Town is the most European city in SA, Joburg is the most American
LA lifestyle, i.e. good (great) weather, fast cars, big highways, everything is done on a large scale (go big or go home)
50% of SA's hot shot movers and shakers live in this town
Lastly Jozi is facing an imminent water crisis, basically ground water that has been contaminanted with toxins is rising to the surface, obviously we're working on a Joburg-esque solution, we'll probably find a way of turning the water into bubbly or something:cheers:



Figured now that I'm not swamped with work I'll respond to this one just to give a slightly different view point...

Best Pay in SA - This on average across the entire spectrum of the working world is probably accurate.. but its not necessarily the case for absolutely every job.

Hectic Nightlife - Every major city in SA has a nightlife to suit pretty much every type of person, and both CT and DBN will on average be cheaper to go out in than JHB, and you'll have just as much fun.

Most advanced city in Africa - This is a very debatable point.. advanced in what respect. Durban had the first metro-fibre ring. Most BIG nightclubs in JHB seem to start in Durban first (Night Fever, Tiger Tiger to name two that I know of off the top of my head). So you'll need to be a bit more specific unfortunately. (No offence to the CT ppl, I just couldn't remember anything big that CT has done because I don't live there anymore)

Very cosmopolitan - CT and DBN are both just as cosmopolitan, and in some aspects probably more so.

Business Centre of Africa - Quite possibly undeniable, at least in the financial sector, others maybe not so much.

Joburg being the most American and CT being the most European -Well then I counter that with Durban being the most African :)

LA Lifestyle - Why would someone want to specifically come to SA and experience a clone of the LA Lifestyle... Durban and CT both have MUCH better qualities of life than JHB if you ask me, and I've lived in all 3 cities.

50% of SA's hotshot movers and shakers live in JHB - I think you might actually find a fair chunk of the ones you think live in JHB, don't actually.. they commute into JHB from outlying areas, or the coast every week.

No denying JHB is facing an imminent water crisis... that is an unfortunate reality that JHB has to deal with, and yes it is a massive opportunity for a person with the right skills. All the provinces have their own water issues that all present the right skilled person with great opportunities to help as well as to earn a decent living.

That kind of gives me some hope on the crime deal, that its over hyped, I lived in Memphis for a while so im used to some level of crime :). So, finding a job might be somewhat of an issue but I have several areas of the country to choose from? Are there a lot of foreign people working in South Africa? I hear they have a shortage of people in some fields. One of the big things, how's the nightlife there? If you could compare the nighlife in some of the big cities there to cities in the U.S that would help (i've never been to Europe).

Crime isn't necessarily overhyped in this country, but its about being aware and to a degree protecting yourself...

Finding a job could be an issue, but if you do your enquiries before hand you might get lucky.

The nightlife in this country is wide and varied... We have big nightclubs, pubs... all sorts to suit basically all types of people.

I think Limpopo officially has the lowest crime rate in the country, those places you're talking about have quite a lot of alcohol-related violence.

Definitely not.

Not in the lifestyle this guy will be involved in. Alcohol-related rural crime in the west of the nation always involves lovers quarrels, community quarrels etc. amongst the lowest LSM brackets. Crime in the higher LSM brackets in the rural Western and Northern Cape is near nil. Attacks are virtually unheard of in the west. Violent home invasions, almost non-existent in the rural west, even household theft is damn low (many people leave homes, cars etc. wide open). I have family and friends in rural areas upcountry... it's so different up there, it's like a foreign nation. Those stats are definitely incorrect, definitely in respect to the life and LSM-bracket an American expat would live in.

That's been the constant issue down here; crime is high, but is very localised, overwhelmingly affects poorer communities (often drug or alcohol related) and is usually committed by someone the victim knows.

Annman

Definitely not.

Not in the lifestyle this guy will be involved in.

This report is slightly old (2004), maybe things have changed dramatically, but check it out, it talks about substance-fuelled violence/crime in the Cape. I will also pull up the Limpopo evidence now-now:) but I highly doubt the came can come close to Limpopo in terms of tranquility...

http://www.iss.co.za/pubs/CrimeQ/No.7/Leggett1.htm

came = Cape

If you're going to move to Gauteng then I suggest you buy or rent a home/apartment in the suburban cities like Sandton, Centurion etc. They are usually safer than areas close to the CBD and you can commute with the Gautrain :)

I've only lived in Centurion and PTA so I could be wrong about Joburg.

If you're going to move to Gauteng then I suggest you buy or rent a home/apartment in the suburban cities like Sandton, Centurion etc. They are usually safer than areas close to the CBD and you can commute with the Gautrain :)

I've only lived in Centurion and PTA so I could be wrong about Joburg.

Yea, those where the places someone else had told me. The only reason im kind of hesitant is that whenever SA crime is shown on tv in America, it always seems to be from Johannesburg and no where else, I know its not good to generalize but theres got to be some truth to that. What are Mossel Bay/Plettenburg Bay/Stellenbosch like?

Pics may be better than explaining.

Stellenbosch
Major academic town and capital of the SA wine industry... probably the most organised, exciting and beautiful small town in the country!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4079/4820875935_1ce2612c53_z.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3237/3125304639_acdaa18d48_z.jpg?zz=1

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4113/5039456663_14cc21987d_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2295/2406714569_3a37420932_z.jpg

Mossel Bay
Place with the 2nd mildest climate in the world after Hawaii. Beaches are nice, but the town is a little industrial and not seen as a "coastal gem" like Knysna or Plettenberg Bay.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2360/2302919248_17cb1885fb_z.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1430/1356371818_fd94cf77d8_z.jpg?zz=1

Plettenberg Bay
Alongside Ballito, the richest coastal town in South Africa. Very very green, set between the bay and temperate rainforest. One of SA's most beautiful coastal resort towns. Also extremely mild climate, seldom humid, never too hot, never too cold.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4153/4981090570_61ec067831_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/5046975046_ced32fae9a_b.jpg

Yea, those where the places someone else had told me. The only reason im kind of hesitant is that whenever SA crime is shown on tv in America, it always seems to be from Johannesburg and no where else, I know its not good to generalize but theres got to be some truth to that. What are Mossel Bay/Plettenburg Bay/Stellenbosch like?

You would get a good feel of it through our foto forums especially the Cape Town ones . I live in one of the top ten safest towns in SA , rural Western Cape is deffinitely safest with middleclass Cape Town safest middleclass neighbourhoods in SA.

BTW there are recruiting agencies speciallizing in getting work for foreigners and vice versa . Annman could you mayby direct him?

Yea, those where the places someone else had told me. The only reason im kind of hesitant is that whenever SA crime is shown on tv in America, it always seems to be from Johannesburg and no where else, I know its not good to generalize but theres got to be some truth to that. What are Mossel Bay/Plettenburg Bay/Stellenbosch like?

Well it's very rare for violent crimes to occur during daytime in the CBD and if you live in a safe area then I don't see any reason why you would be a victim of crime. In the 17 year's I've lived in Gauteng the only crime I've experienced was a couple of burglars stealing our curtains (wtf?) and a friend of mine got his cellphone taken (keep in mind he walked through an abandoned field)

If you just stay alert in the less safe areas then you should be fine.

^^@Annman

Pics are all good and well but we're now talking about career opportunities, most of those are lifestyle-oriented coastal town, no doubt beautiful but I doubt they're ideal for professionals.

Stellenbosch
Mate unless you graduated from University of Stellenbosch, forget about anything. the town is patronised by Johann Rupert, one of the countries richest men. It is also has a heavy Afrikaans elite vibe, so I doubt an American would fit it as much. You might enjoy it but forget about making any sort of real progress, the place is a haven for the Stellies Old Boy's Club, i.e Broerskaap - Afrikaans for brotherhood

Plett & Mossel Bay
These are holiday town for the rich, unless you're already wealthy, your lifestyle will be so-so. Mediocre pay and a dead social life for most parts of the year

Jozi, Egoli, Msawawa
Now this is a real working town. Whether you're an American with a graduate qualification or a bummed-out Zimbabwean this place represents the most hectic rat-race this side of the Atlantic. The place where a man with nothing but a dream comes to make them come true. A true 'City of Dreams'...
Plus there's a fairly large American expat community in Jozi and lots of American multinationals are HG'd here.

Basically the choice you face is: Do you want to stay in a holiday/student town, with all the attendant slow lifestyle and career progression or do you want to advance your career in Africa's industrial/commercial/technology hub?

Lastly if you come to Jozi with an uppity American attitude, check that ish at the door. Joburgers don't take sh*t from nobody, capiche? :)

You're forgetting his line of work...coastal Western Cape towns such as George are investing heavily in ensuring they have future access to water. He could basically live almost anywhere in the country with his line of work to be honest.

A place such as Stellenbosch would give him the small town vibe with Cape Town being half an hour's drive away. Perfect if he's into that.

^^@Annman

Pics are all good and well but we're now talking about career opportunities, most of those are lifestyle-oriented coastal town, no doubt beautiful but I doubt they're ideal for professionals.

Stellenbosch
Mate unless you graduated from University of Stellenbosch, forget about anything. the town is patronised by Johann Rupert, one of the countries richest men. It is also has a heavy Afrikaans elite vibe, so I doubt an American would fit it as much. You might enjoy it but forget about making any sort of real progress, the place is a haven for the Stellies Old Boy's Club, i.e Broerskaap - Afrikaans for brotherhood

Plett & Mossel Bay
These are holiday town for the rich, unless you're already wealthy, your lifestyle will be so-so. Mediocre pay and a dead social life for most parts of the year

Jozi, Egoli, Msawawa
Now this is a real working town. Whether you're an American with a graduate qualification or a bummed-out Zimbabwean this place represents the most hectic rat-race this side of the Atlantic. The place where a man with nothing but a dream comes to make them come true. A true 'City of Dreams'...
Plus there's a fairly large American expat community in Jozi and lots of American multinationals are HG'd here.

Basically the choice you face is: Do you want to stay in a holiday/student town, with all the attendant slow lifestyle and career progression or do you want to advance your career in Africa's industrial/commercial/technology hub?

Lastly if you come to Jozi with an uppity American attitude, check that ish at the door. Joburgers don't take sh*t from nobody, capiche? :)

You really do seem to have this very twisted view of the other major towns and even the smaller towns in this country.

Have you ever actually worked anywhere other than JHB?

Just to give you a small hint, I earn more in DBN than companies in JHB will pay me.. I have a better quality of life down here as well. JHB's quality of life is kak in my opinion.. everything costs money and is bloody far apart...

You're forgetting his line of work...coastal Western Cape towns such as George are investing heavily in ensuring they have future access to water. He could basically live almost anywhere in the country with his line of work to be honest.

A place such as Stellenbosch would give him the small town vibe with Cape Town being half an hour's drive away. Perfect if he's into that.


Yea, thats what my job we be like here, I would have the ability to move anywhere in the country, so I was hoping it would apply there too. George looks like its a pretty big town, does it have a nightlife/social scene? The town I grew up in had 65k people and its nightlife was actually pretty good so im guesing a city with 200k+ ppl will too? lol

Stellenbosch would be good for its location to Cape Town, but if Nostar is right and everyday life is spent in Afrikaans then I may have some communication problems, im sure i'll know more by then but as of right now im not too good at it.

You really do seem to have this very twisted view of the other major towns and even the smaller towns in this country.

Have you ever actually worked anywhere other than JHB?

Just to give you a small hint, I earn more in DBN than companies in JHB will pay me.. I have a better quality of life down here as well. JHB's quality of life is kak in my opinion.. everything costs money and is bloody far apart...

Please forgive me if im wrong, but just by going by what i've read other places isnt Durban pretty dangerous? The stuff I read was from 2007 I believe, has it improved since then?

Please forgive me if im wrong, but just by going by what i've read other places isnt Durban pretty dangerous? The stuff I read was from 2007 I believe, has it improved since then?

Like any major city, certain parts are dangerous, yes... but overall the city is actually a really awesome place to live, if you can cope with the weather... Its summer-like 10 - 11months of the year :)

^^@Annman

Pics are all good and well but we're now talking about career opportunities, most of those are lifestyle-oriented coastal town, no doubt beautiful but I doubt they're ideal for professionals.

Stellenbosch
Mate unless you graduated from University of Stellenbosch, forget about anything. the town is patronised by Johann Rupert, one of the countries richest men. It is also has a heavy Afrikaans elite vibe, so I doubt an American would fit it as much. You might enjoy it but forget about making any sort of real progress, the place is a haven for the Stellies Old Boy's Club, i.e Broerskaap - Afrikaans for brotherhood



I AM AMERICAN you noob!!! :ohno: Seem's like we've got a Gau-ego-complex cooking there with an undertone of reverse bigotry and a sprinkling of Cape-ignorance.

Sorry Sotex, sometimes people get fired up in South Africa regarding the "north/south rivalry", it's kinda like the East Coast/West Coast vibe in the USA. The Johannesburgers make more money, so they get all up-in-your-face about it, but the Capetonians live in a much nicer place with a better lifestyle, so they get all up-in-your-face about that too.

At the end of the day you need to decide what place and what lifestyle suits you best, although it seems like this gentleman didn't listen to you when you said you come from the South and want a place that's more relaxed and semi-rural. Been to Auburn, Mobile and Birmingham: Jo'burg would NOT be for you, trust me.

PS. Stellenbosch is completely bilingual... there is no real "Afrikaans barrier." And, if you want nightlife, the small town with the best nightlife in SA is Stellenbosch hands-down thanks one of the country's biggest and most prestigious universities being there combined with the spending power of hoards of international residents and tourists. George's nightlife isn't too bad, but is more relaxed and less sophisticated compared to Stellenbosch.

^^no wonder, don't come here with that Yank tendency!! just kidding buddy, I just like chooning the Kaapies k@k.

By the way I did my undergrad at UCT, and I worked for a local asset management company in Claremont when I was doing my honours part-time @ UNISA. I can say categorically that if you're not from Stellies or you're Afrikaans your chances of becoming a Portfolio manager or getting paid a good salary are very slim in Cape Town, unless you work for Old Mutual or Sanlam, otherwise you're going to be broke. Sh*t is not a joke. the place should be called the Cape of Good Broke (lol)

I was recently in Cape Town and I can tell you I know what I'm talking about, all the professionals talk sh*t about the quality of their lifestyles. What freaking lifestyle? They're still taking trains to work (even though they're all have graduate degrees from UCT)*. They live in sh*t places in Kennilworth or Obz because accomodation is so expensive.

Yep the so-called lifestyle is unparaleled (sp?), only problem is that you need real cash to enjoy it and real cash is in Joburg, everything else is tiddlewinks.


*To clarify there's nothing wrong with public transit, it is just that in SA it's really sh*t and most people get cars as soon as they can afford to...

And, if you want nightlife, the small town with the best nightlife in SA is Stellenbosch hands-down thanks one of the country's biggest and most prestigious universities being there combined with the spending power of hoards of international residents and tourists

Where do you get these interesting factoidsmate? Firstly it was that the Cape has the lowest crime rates in the country and now its that Stellies has the most happening nightlife in the country. I know you're a real Cape patriot but please refrain from substituting your own opinion for hard facts.

^^ I live here, I don't make tons of money, just getting my career started, my lifestyle is awesome. Most of my mates are in a similar boat... I have mates in Jo'burg too, although they do not hate it (I actually think Jo'burg is a pretty cool place), they miss the Cape almost daily. Maybe your mates are stuck in a rut... Can happen to anyone, anywhere working for a boss! Maybe they should be more entrepreneurial.

Every weekend I'm at the beach, canoeing on a river, swimming in a mountain stream, touring wine estates, eating at restaurants with the best views on earth, taking joy-rides with mates in mountain passes, going out and getting crazy in Stellenbosch or CT, listening to live music at an estate, botanical garden or busy pub... Yes, the lifestyle here is terrible!!!

People that are driven purely by money will NEVER like it here and prefer Jo'burg. It's different strokes for different folks. This guy we're giving advice wants a semi-rural life, more relaxed life... read back into his posts.

Give him advice that is relevant to his needs. :)

Where do you get these interesting factoidsmate? Firstly it was that the Cape has the lowest crime rates in the country and now its that Stellies has the most happening nightlife in the country. I know you're a real Cape patriot but please refrain from substituting your own opinion for hard facts.

Then, pray tell... which small town of 60,000 people in SA has a comparable nightlife to Stellenbosch? I've traveled this country far and wide. I'm not comparing apples to pomegranates, i.e. Johannesburg to Stellenbosch. You have to compare apples with apples. :ohno:

@ Sotex

Buddy, feel free to pick anywhere to base yourself, despite our differences (sibling rivalry), SA offers a great life anywhere if you're a professional with a good and rare skill. If you're real outdoorsy and like the coast Cape Town and Durban are good options. If you're a money-hungry, ambitious, win-at-all-cost type Jozi is your spot mate, just be ready to put up with incessant traffic jams, smog and a dearth of natural beauty...

Every weekend I'm at the beach, canoeing on a river, swimming in a mountain stream, touring wine estates, eating at restaurants with the best views on earth, taking joy-rides with mates in mountain passes, going out and getting crazy in Stellenbosch or CT

Lol, that's soft mate, every weekend you'll find me swimming in a toxic water reservoir at the nearest mine dump, or ducking AK 47 wielding tsotsis at my nearest mall, or just taking a leisurely drive through Joburg's potholed roads:D

Thanks or all the help guys! Im kind of feeling the rivalry:)
In terms of the more laid back lifestyle then im guessing around CT would be my best option, but, and not to be conceded, but if I move halfay around the world I at least want to make a decent amount of money or have a chance to move up the career chain in case I decide to stay for a LONG time, which judging by all the pictures of the country i've seen thats a huge possibility.

@Annman, since your from the states, if you had to describe the people there what would area of the country would you say they act like if they lived in the US? (I know that might be sterotypical haha, but it would help me understand more).

@Nostra, are the areas around Centurion, Midrand, and all those places in the middle of Joburg and Pretoria safe?

Sorry to get all hung up on the whole "crime and safe" thing. I've just never been a victim of crime or known anyone that has...and i've walked around New Orleans and Memphis by myself at night hah. So crime is a little foreign to me.

^^ There are very few similarities between people in the USA and people in South Africa actually. Even though externally, people may seem similar, westernized and externally friendly, the similarities stop there.

Americans tend to be friendly "out of convenience", whilst South Africans are friendly due to being "genuinely interested in others." In America for example, people will say "How're you doing," as a greeting, not expecting or even wanting a reply. In South Africa, if you ask a question, you get an honest answer. "How're you doing," here is still a question and most people will answer you honestly whether their day has been good or bad. Seems like a tiny example, but this is a small difference that permeates through the entire social psyche.

Americans often comment that even though SA is a very diverse society, there is a feeling of "connectedness." South Africans, black, white, green or purple do give off a feeling of Ubuntu. Ubuntu is an African philosophy of "I am me because of you." We are all African.

You will find South Africans VERY welcoming and extremely curious and interested in you as a person and how your life was like in America and how SA is treating you. They will invite you over for BBQ's, dinner, out for drinks and here, the invite is genuine... they really want you in their company. South Africans are quite honest. More often than not, if they do not like you, they will cut a conversation short. If they're engaging with you for extended periods, they want you around.

South Africans are also externally more introverted than Americans. Americans open up almost instantly on a superficial level, but take a long time to open up on a deeper level. South Africans will be friendly, but more reserved initially, but are very quick to open up on a deeper level.

Generally, these traits aren't regional. Most places have very open people. However, rule of thumb, areas in and around big cities are more liberal and rural areas are more conservative, but the friendliness is similar. Durban is very laid back, Cape Town can be cliquey, but once they open up, they're just as friendly, Johannesburg people don't have much time on their hands, but when they do, they're almost shockingly very open and friendly for such a large city. :)

*applauds annman* :)

I may not be an American, but from my dealings with many of them and of course my dealings with my own people I would have to totally agree with your point of view.

sotex : I think ultimately you would need to hunt around a bit to see what options are available to you and in what areas. I personally wouldn't live in JHB again, I didn't enjoy my time there at all... CPT I would live in again, but for me Durban is the best city in the country because it suits me perfectly. I like the fact that its laid back but at the same time really hard working and that the social life here is incredibly varied and the fact that I have an awesome beach and warm sea just a stones throw from the office helps as well :D

@ Sotex

@Nostra, are the areas around Centurion, Midrand, and all those places in the middle of Joburg and Pretoria safe?

The areas you're talking about are very developed and possibly the wealthiest areas of Africa so they do attract more than their fair share of crime, it is a serious problem. From my own experiece having lived in the northern surburbs of Joburg (Randburg) for a year and half I have to say I have not experienced any crime so far. Having said that the crime is quite high, the counter-measures that have been put in place are quite effective as well, i.e.

Big inpenetrable walls surround most housing developments
Advanced security systems and private security complementing the SA cops,
In Gauteng the police don't take ish, they're always out and they harass ppl (shady looking ppl) in a good way
Crime has tumbled dramatically over the past few years as police visibility has improved exponentially

I have found that the easiest way to avoid crime is that you must be street smart.

Avoid shady looking areas.
Don't bring an attitude that says you want to experience the 'real Africa' at 12 midnight
Don't trust people on the streets who promise to show you the 'real Africa'
South Africans are very friendly like Annman said but use your common sense
Lastly don't try commit crimes such as soliciting prostitutes or buying some drugs, that's when you're at your most vulnerable. If you do want something illicit rather get a trusted South AFrican to get it for you. lol

^ Love your signature lol


@sotex: Centurion is very safe and I haven't experienced violent crimes ever. Like most cities in SA you just have to make sure you don't venture into a dark alley or abandoned corner lol. If you stay in places where there are a lot of people your safety is guaranteed. And houses usually have high electrified fences and patrolled streets like Nostra said so you should be safe at home too :)

Besides there are a lot of opportunities in Gauteng requiring your level of expertise.

^^

Ok good, thats relief hah. I dont foresee myself venturing out after dark. Is there a lot of things for people around my age (22) to do there? How are the girls in SA? :)

Yea, i've been reading up on all of the water problems the country is having and I can't imagine having a hard time finding a job, I was reading how some municipalities (I think), had no engineers or anything like that because of affirmative action, and the country was having to bring people in.

Cant remember if I asked this, but is it easy to make friends there if you dont know anyone?

dude... We South Africans are always friendly...

When ppl find out you're from America they'll want to talk to you and genuinely be intereseted in listening, and you will make friends from that.

Yea, thats what my job we be like here, I would have the ability to move anywhere in the country, so I was hoping it would apply there too. George looks like its a pretty big town, does it have a nightlife/social scene? The town I grew up in had 65k people and its nightlife was actually pretty good so im guesing a city with 200k+ ppl will too? lol

I'm from George, and yes you got it right, about 200k population currently. Like Lydon said, George and surrounding towns on the Garden Route and Southern Cape is currently investing heavily in securing water certainty for the future, from sewerage water purifying to desalination of sea water, after going through the worst drought in recorded history.
George is central on the Garden Route, with Mossel Bay, Knysna and Oudtshoorn all 50-60 kms away in various directions, so even still possible to stay in George and work in the others (or ofcourse vice versa). I can't really comment on the pay, as I have no idea on this line of job or the industry.
Nightlife wise, well, not exactly the most vibrant, but a good 15 - 20 decent clubs and bars located quite centrally close to eachother, and several others spread around. Ofcourse Knysna/Plett has a somewhat more attractive scene sometimes, quite easy to hop down there for the night as well.
Crime wise, pretty safe, similiar as mentioned before, the majority of violent crime is alcohol related in the poorer areas. Other than that the odd burglary or pickpocketing does occur, but it's all about being aware and just taking proper precaution...I've never been a victim of crime here (infact anywhere in SA)...only in London 3 times!
And ofcourse if the casual lifestyle tend to get to you, it's very easy to just hop on a plane and head to Joburg or Cape Town for the weekend.

Oi.. what about heading to Durban as well demmit :P

But jokes aside, there are so many opportunities and different lifestyles all over SA that there is bound to be a few places that you absolutely fall in love with, and hopefully they'll have decent paying jobs as well.

^^ Durban's lucky in that respect. They have sufficient water. You guys love to harp on about how green it is there all the time! ;)

Yes that it is. :)...

Its something most of KZN is lucky for... but even with that, there are opportunities here.. some of the water projects here are pretty impressive...

But I will be totally honest, and say that if sotex is interested in working and changing as many lives as possible then the opportunities in other parts of the country might be better suited to him in the long run.

^^

Ok good, thats relief hah. I dont foresee myself venturing out after dark. Is there a lot of things for people around my age (22) to do there? How are the girls in SA? :)

Yea, i've been reading up on all of the water problems the country is having and I can't imagine having a hard time finding a job, I was reading how some municipalities (I think), had no engineers or anything like that because of affirmative action, and the country was having to bring people in.

Well, I'm 17 so I haven't experienced much of the clubbing scene but there are nice clubs (from what I've heard) and also very nice pubs and restaurants in Centurion. But if Centurion's nightlife isn't satisfying then Hatfield and Brooklyn (just 10 km north of Centurion) are bound to do it for you. There are tons of clubs, bars, restaurants etc. You could also go south to Sandton and the areas in and around JHB.

The good thing about Centurion is that it's centrally located between PTA and JHB and is very safe. Also the Gautrain provides easy access to surrounding areas such as Hatfield, Sandton, Marlboro, the airport etc.

EDIT: The Gautrain only starts running from Centurion by June next year :(

O yeah, the girls. There are a lot of beautiful girls and a great variety. You'll find white, black, brown, asian etc. There's pretty much girls for every type of person ;)

If they give me the choice to study in another African country, I'll definitly choose SA.

Good deal JOHAN 15!

How much does it usually cost a month to live (rent, food, car, phone?)

Other question I had was about salary. I looked it up and for my job it says the average salary in SA is R250,000-R575,000. But you can make upwards of R800,000. Is this enough to live good on? It sounds like alot but I dnt know how it adds up to the USD.

Well, houses became very expensive in the past few years so obviously the rent is also higher. I don't know how much the rent is in the States but over here you could pay anything from R4 000 to R 7 000, depending on the size of the house/apartment and the location. Here are two examples in Clubview and Eco Park:

http://www.privateproperty.co.za/ss-savuti-clubview-rr377307.htm
http://www.privateproperty.co.za/moonstone-eco-park-estate-rr382278.htm

You can browse the site for any other places to rent in Gauteng.

Food will probably set you back probably about R1500 to about R2500, depending on how much you eat (lol) and what type of food you buy. I know we pay R7000 for a family of 4 with pets.

I don't have much info on car rental costs but it would be about the same as in the US. Maybe a little more or less. Gas is a little over R8 per liter at the moment.

Cellphones cost anything from R100 p/m to R400 p/m, depending on the type of phone and type of cell phone contract. You'll probably pay around R200 a month.

With regards to the salary, that seems like quite a lot. R575 000 would easily provide a middle to upper middle class lifestyle for a single person in SA. Hope the information was useful :)

If you plan your life properly... then the bottom of that salary range is more than sufficient to provide you a relatively nice quality of life.

The upper end of that salary range will give you a very good quality of life in this country (except in the REALLY posh upper class parts of course)....

Lastly Jozi is facing an imminent water crisis, basically ground water that has been contaminanted with toxins is rising to the surface, obviously we're working on a Joburg-esque solution, we'll probably find a way of turning the water into bubbly or something.

Well, maybe Johannesburg could do something like Sydney (Nova Scotia)
http://wvmdtaskforce.com/proceedings/08/Shea.pdf
or do those with this type of knowledge know why it is not possible and what is the difference between the two? (Is the water in Sydney not contaminated? .... surely must be?)

Thanks Johan, that gives it something to compare it too, prolly should have cecked up on that before I asked haha.

What kind of music is popular down there? What do people usually do for fun?

I feel like I would probably stick out like a sore thumb from the way I talk and the music I listen too haha, do people usually make fun of people for that? I have a pretty bad southern accent, but if I move somewhere im gona try and get rid of it (as much as possible).:lol:

Whats up all, this is my first post so if it posted in the wrong place, my bad ha. Im getting ready to finish up grad school (masters in Hydrology/Water Resources Management) in the U.S. I have been wanting to live abroad for a while and South Africa is one of the places that keeps catching my eye. Would it be relatively easy for me to get a job there with my degree? And how's living there? I understand there's crime and all that, but is it easy to avoid? Thanks for all the help ya'll.

Youre going to UT arnt you?

Also, Johan is filthy rich so dont listen to him.

^^ alot of universities in the dallas fort worth area offer that degree...

Youre going to UT arnt you?

Also, Johan is filthy rich so dont listen to him.

Naw, UNT, I did my undergrad at Alabama

Naw, UNT, I did my undergrad at Alabama

how far is drive from frisco to denton.....should take like an hr....i drove from arlington and took an hr...so far away....maybe i might go to UNT for my masters in nursing.

how far is drive from frisco to denton.....should take like an hr....i drove from arlington and took an hr...so far away....maybe i might go to UNT for my masters in nursing.

Naw, its not that bad now that they have the toll bridge built over Lewisville lake, it only takes about 30-35 minutes. Im not sure how their nursin program is but I feel like I heard it was pretty good.

Naw, its not that bad now that they have the toll bridge built over Lewisville lake, it only takes about 30-35 minutes. Im not sure how their nursin program is but I feel like I heard it was pretty good.

cool....i got a cameroonian friend that goes to UNT ...she lives in lewisville..said the drive is about 30 mins.....i guess arlington and irving are far away from denton

cool....i got a cameroonian friend that goes to UNT ...she lives in lewisville..said the drive is about 30 mins.....i guess arlington and irving are far away from denton

Yea I think lewisville would be bad cuz you get stuck in 35 no matter which way you go, that crap drives me crazy:nuts:

Yea theres no way I wud go to UNT and live in irving or arlington, i'd go for UT-A

^^You talk like an Effrican-Merkin, are you? You don't have to answer if you don't want to...

Youre going to UT arnt you?

Also, Johan is filthy rich so dont listen to him.

Filthy rich is an understatement.








j/k, I'm just well off.

Thanks Johan, that gives it something to compare it too, prolly should have cecked up on that before I asked haha.

What kind of music is popular down there? What do people usually do for fun?

I feel like I would probably stick out like a sore thumb from the way I talk and the music I listen too haha, do people usually make fun of people for that? I have a pretty bad southern accent, but if I move somewhere im gona try and get rid of it (as much as possible).:lol:

There is a large variety in preferences when it comes to music, some people like rock, other like pop, some like jazz or blues etc. But I guess rock and pop is mainstream. Most people listen to international and also Afrikaans and English SA bands like Aking, Ef-el, Die Heuwels, the Parlotones etc.

What type of music do you listen to?

People go to bars, cafe's, the movies, nightclubs etc and on weekends some people have a bbq or just get together at someone's house. Alos, sport is pretty big in SA so a lot of people do something 'outdoorsy' for fun too. You'd be able to make friends relatively easy. My experiences might not be the same though, since I'm still in high school.

No, people would find you very interesting :D. Some Afrikaans people might be a bit snobbish (must be some kind of mentality) but they are really in the minority. Overall you'd be able to integrate fairly easily but it would be to your advantage if you went for Afrikaans classes. It's a very easy language (just three tenses :))

Thanks Johan, that gives it something to compare it too, prolly should have cecked up on that before I asked haha.

What kind of music is popular down there? What do people usually do for fun?

I feel like I would probably stick out like a sore thumb from the way I talk and the music I listen too haha, do people usually make fun of people for that? I have a pretty bad southern accent, but if I move somewhere im gona try and get rid of it (as much as possible).:lol:

Music well thats like asking what type of music is popular in the USA . Different strokes for different folkes . The only thing not popular here is american country music because we have afrikaans pop in its place and you'll get a few more south african music styles as well but basically we have people that fall into the whole range . Electro , rap , metal , rock , punk rock , alt rock , techno , trance , kwaito , rave , folk ............... the list is endless.

For fun - South Africa is a outdoor country like Australia , so you will get sports and outdoor stuff , but we also have crazy nightlife with flavours for any intrest

Johan isnt filthy rich :P or am I just used to rich people :dunno:

fok now we have 2 Johans which is getting confusing

Lol they've both been around for some time.

SA's best cities for salaries

Gauteng may still be where the action is, but some workers are earning bigger bucks in Cape Town.

Gauteng may still be where most of the money and corporate action is, but for some workers the Cape could offer better salaries.

According to the global pay comparison group PayScale, based on survey of almost 35 000 salaries Johannesburg (R234 651) and Sandton (R235 661) still have the highest median annual salaries in the country.

Lower down on the list are Witbank (R182 327), Pretoria (R179 932), Cape Town (R177 816) Durban (R166 361) and Port Elizabeth (R138 073). (Official government figures also show that Johannesburg's per capita income of R58 705 a year - followed by Tshwane's R49 912 – is the country's highest.)

One recruiter's survey, released this week, showed that employees on its books earn the most in Pretoria – 7% more than the national average salary, followed by Johannesburg (4% above the average).

Figures from JobCrystal show that Cape Town pay comes in at 5% below the average.

"However, it does appear that the so-called Cape Town tax – where candidates in Cape Town are paid less than those in Gauteng, ostensibly due to the better lifestyle – is showing signs of narrowing," says JobCrystal MD Kevin Laithwaite.

Gauteng – which, according to the latest police statistics, still accounts for 50% of the crime in SA – is traditionally seen as a less desirable place to live.

Research by academics from Finland, New Zealand and the North West University on quality of life in South Africa found that if non-monetary measures are used - such as life expectancy, a better environment and higher literacy rates - Cape Town ranks first in South Africa.
It is followed by Ekurhuleni, Durban, Port Elizabeth and then Johannesburg and Tshwane. (When only measured in terms of "monetary" quality of life, Johannesburg tops the ranking.)

According to a recent study by First National Bank, the Western Cape has the best inward migration rate and the lowest outward migration in South Africa.

As more people wanted to live in the Cape, the subsequent demand for jobs is pushing down salaries.

However, Sandra Burmeister, CEO of recruitment group Landelahni Business Leaders, says earnings of executives and those with scarce skills (accountants, engineers and ICT professionals) are now on par in Johannesburg and Cape Town.

“This is simply because there are too few of these skills available in the market to be paying them any less in Cape Town.

“We have noticed, however, that in the case of black executives and scarce skills in financial services, the Cape Town rate of pay may well exceed the Johannesburg rate, just by virtue of the limited supply of specifically black candidates in the Cape and the desire to attract candidates for the role from other provinces.”

However, for more junior roles there is still a sizeable pay differential, Burmeister says.

“In secretarial, administrative, junior and even middle management, human resources and other support roles Cape Town is still paying less. I would think the differential is anything between 10% and 25%, depending on the role and the availability of skills. There are still more candidates available than jobs in these roles.”

There is one exception, though, Burmeister noticed.

Call centre agents are extremely well paid in Cape Town (mostly by international firms) - about 25% to 30% more than call centre agents in Johannesburg.

“We have an oversupply of entry level people and unemployed graduates with good communication skills in Johannesburg.”

Madge Gibson of Jack Hammer Executive Headhunters says the executive pay differential between Cape Town and Gauteng is all but wiped out.

”At an executive level it’s all about the role, the skill and the experience - whether we are recruiting from Johannesburg or Cape Town, the salary stays the same.”

The Western Cape economy has also sharpened up in recent years, attracting more companies and entrepreneurs.

According to Globalinsight data, the Western Cape economy showed average annual growth of 4.2% during the past decade, beating the Gauteng growth rate of 4.1%.

- Fin24.com (http://www.women24.com/CareersAndMoney/AtWork/SAs-best-cities-for-salaries-20101129)

I've already seen a similar narrowing in the salary difference between Durban and JHB as well...

I think all 3 big cities are almost on an equal footing in terms of salaries now, which is they way it should be in my opinion.

Just for the record, I too am 'merican with a degree in water resources interested in working overseas.

I did not know UNT had a graduate hydrology degree, must have missed it. Then again, you have to live near the metroplex. I really hope SA water law isnt as confusing as Texan/American.

^^You talk like an Effrican-Merkin, are you? You don't have to answer if you don't want to...

Whats an Effrican-Merkin? I guess im not if I dont know what it is hah.

African American.

No, im white hah

fok now we have 2 Johans which is getting confusing

Even our join dates match up lol. but we differ night and day lol

^^You talk like an Effrican-Merkin, are you? You don't have to answer if you don't want to...

da fuk at effrican merkin.....is that afrikaans for african americans

Just for the record, I too am 'merican with a degree in water resources interested in working overseas.

I did not know UNT had a graduate hydrology degree, must have missed it. Then again, you have to live near the metroplex. I really hope SA water law isnt as confusing as Texan/American.

you need to move to dallas fort worth...more jobs more money, alot of mad fortune 500 companies........san marcus-san antonio-austin metroplex sucks and boring..the only thing is good for is fking alot of easy biyatches, alot fortune

There is a large variety in preferences when it comes to music, some people like rock, other like pop, some like jazz or blues etc. But I guess rock and pop is mainstream. Most people listen to international and also Afrikaans and English SA bands like Aking, Ef-el, Die Heuwels, the Parlotones etc.

What type of music do you listen to?

People go to bars, cafe's, the movies, nightclubs etc and on weekends some people have a bbq or just get together at someone's house. Alos, sport is pretty big in SA so a lot of people do something 'outdoorsy' for fun too. You'd be able to make friends relatively easy. My experiences might not be the same though, since I'm still in high school.

No, people would find you very interesting :D. Some Afrikaans people might be a bit snobbish (must be some kind of mentality) but they are really in the minority. Overall you'd be able to integrate fairly easily but it would be to your advantage if you went for Afrikaans classes. It's a very easy language (just three tenses :))[/QUOTE]


I like country music but I listen to everything lol.

So yall do pretty much the same stuff we do just a little different?

Yea, I have an Afrikaans learning book and all that, and its easier than I thought it would be!

Even our join dates match up lol. but we differ night and day lol

F.ex I live in a more elite city, my post count is higher and I've changed my signature in the past two years :laugh:

I like country music but I listen to everything lol.

So yall do pretty much the same stuff we do just a little different?

Yea, I have an Afrikaans learning book and all that, and its easier than I thought it would be!

We have our fair share of country listeners lol, we even have a few country singers and a lot of international country CD's are available at our music stores.

Yep, pretty much. SA is very globalised so there is little difference between us and many Anglophone countries. We just have a unique splash of African flavour to complement it.

Yeah, Afrikaans is very easy, you just have to get the pronunciation right.

We have our fair share of country listeners lol, we even have a few country singers and a lot of international country CD's are available at our music stores.

Yep, pretty much. SA is very globalised so there is little difference between us and many Anglophone countries. We just have a unique splash of African flavour to complement it.

Yeah, Afrikaans is very easy, you just have to get the pronunciation right.

Good deal lol, I dont want to stick out walking around with my cowboy boots on haha.

Im hoping to visit this coming summer to get more of a game plan going, but all this is based on weather or not I actually get a job ha.

F.ex I live in a more elite city, my post count is higher and I've changed my signature in the past two years :laugh:

im too busy to post a few thousand times and i like my big red signature ;) btw centurion isnt even more elite than my lil old english hometown of napier since one of our neighboors is a director of woolworths and we could sell our house and we would be able to afford a house in any neighboorhood in SA (7000persent property value growth since 1988) :P . and ive got 6 years on you ;)

Just as a word of warning.. your summer is our Winter.. but depending on where you go in the country, you might be surprised what we classify as winter :)

Just let us all here know if/when you do come across for a visit, I'm sure people here will be happy to play tourguide for a day or two when you're in their city if they have time.

SA's best cities for salaries

Gauteng may still be where the action is, but some workers are earning bigger bucks in Cape Town.


Yep, if you're a call centre agent! It's going to take a long time for the Cape to reach Joburg levels of income simply because income is a function of productivity.
I thought the Cape's productivity would improve under the stewardship of Madam Zille but it (Cape) seems to be have retreated into its normal complacent shell. Instead I believe over the next five to ten years the income differential between CPT and DBN will close dramatically.

Unless the Silicon Cape initiative takes off, I just don't see approaching Gauteng anytime soon.

im too busy to post a few thousand times and i like my big red signature ;) btw centurion isnt even more elite than my lil old english hometown of napier since one of our neighboors is a director of woolworths and we could sell our house and we would be able to afford a house in any neighboorhood in SA (7000persent property value growth since 1988) :P . and ive got 6 years on you ;)

My accounting teacher's father is also a director of Woolworths. ;)

Besides, Centurion has a lake and what's this... a Gautrain?

Good deal lol, I dont want to stick out walking around with my cowboy boots on haha.

Im hoping to visit this coming summer to get more of a game plan going, but all this is based on weather or not I actually get a job ha.

Lol, you'd blend in fairly well, people would mistake you for a Boer :laugh: Until you start to speak though.

By summer you mean your summer but our winter? Our winter is pretty mild when compared to the US, but our summers are scorchers. Were it not for summer rains, we would probably have died off a while ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretoria#Climate

Yep, if you're a call centre agent! It's going to take a long time for the Cape to reach Joburg levels of income simply because income is a function of productivity.
I thought the Cape's productivity would improve under the stewardship of Madam Zille but it (Cape) seems to be have retreated into its normal complacent shell. Instead I believe over the next five to ten years the income differential between CPT and DBN will close dramatically.

Unless the Silicon Cape initiative takes off, I just don't see approaching Gauteng anytime soon.

That's a little bit of an over generalisation. Gauteng usually does pay more overall, but for all sectors. But, Cape Town is not continually falling behind, it's actually slowly catching up; did you not read all the findings? It's not the "Madams" duty to increase productivity, that is more Guy Lundy's and Nils Flaaten's jobs. ;)

Analysis from Fin24, Media24 group financial publication:



Madge Gibson of Jack Hammer Executive Headhunters says the executive pay differential between Cape Town and Gauteng is all but wiped out.

”At an executive level it’s all about the role, the skill and the experience - whether we are recruiting from Johannesburg or Cape Town, the salary stays the same.”

The Western Cape economy has also sharpened up in recent years, attracting more companies and entrepreneurs.

According to Globalinsight data, the Western Cape economy showed average annual growth of 4.2% during the past decade, beating the Gauteng growth rate of 4.1%.

- Fin24.com

On the Weather...

No, South Africa is NOT hot at all. Compared to the Southern USA, SA's summers are outright delightful. You guys have never been to Texas, Florida or other southern states in July or August if you claim anywhere (except maybe Upington or Musina) is too hot.

Cape Town's average summer maximum temp is 27C/81F, no humidity, thus no heat index usually.

Durban's average summer maximum temp is 28C/83F, but with humidity, so the heat index can bring it slightly beyond 90F, but... compare that to Houston, Dallas or Orlando in summer.... it's NOTHING!

Johannesburg averages 25C/78F in summer, with moderate to low humidity due to its altitude.

The Garden Route (other place you're interested in), as I said before, is downright mild all year!!! It's climate is almost too perfect. Summer average max is 23C/74F.

My accounting teacher's father is also a director of Woolworths. ;)

Besides, Centurion has a lake and what's this... a Gautrain?



Lol, you'd blend in fairly well, people would mistake you for a Boer :laugh: Until you start to speak though.

By summer you mean your summer but our winter? Our winter is pretty mild when compared to the US, but our summers are scorchers. Were it not for summer rains, we would probably have died off a while ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretoria#Climate

We dont need a gautrain since the only traffic we have is ducks geese an chickens ;) We have our own river in our garden , with indigenous fish and bird life not just hadedas and pigeons :P beat that centurion .

^^ Kinda difficult comparing living in the Winelands to living in Gauteng suburbia. ;)

Most of the cash is up there, but it's hard to give up a mountain as your backyard and vineyard as a front yard for cash. Most people work their butts off till they retire just to get the very lifestyle the Winelands offers.

Some people like to live with cash and things, some people like to "live with beauty and ease." I've lived the rat race in cities before; it's for some people, however if I'm not surrounded by beauty, I feel uninspired and less productive.

Congratulations, Cape Town is perfect.


And besides annman, heat is relative. I was simply giving my point of view. I also provided unbiased temperatures for sotex to compare to his own. No need to go all dramatic.

^^ :nuts:

I was comparing the heat relative for Sotex. Dallas (and many other southern cities in the USA) in summer can often be 36C or hotter with 90% humidity. It is something we just do not know in South Africa. If it's that hot here, it's dry with little humidity. Trying to give things in his perspective. Nothing wrong with it to say SA's climate is gorgeous. Really didn't mean to degrade your opinion, just give him a "relative" opinion.

Are Hout Bay and Camps Bay good places to live?

Ok guys, Im moving back home next year, where do I go? JHB is my hometown, but I love Cape Town. Difference is that Im setting up my own company (renewable energy), instead of looking for a job!
Whos got the best looking women?:) Oh, never mind, Im married...

There is no winter in Texas.

Sorry all, yea I mean ya'll wintr our summer:)

Ya'lls summer weather sounds like Heaven compared to our summer weather. We had a week this July that the temp didnt go under 104F IT SUCKED, and it doesnt rain here in the summer!!! I can take the heat and humidity in Alabama because at least it rains almost every afternoon there:)

@Goliath01- What kind of renewable energy you getting into, I was reading on here about how theyre talking about a solar farm somewhere in the country.

Hey we had a week in Stellenbosch in March when the temperature hovered at 39degrees celsius and spiked one super hot day to almost 48 degrees celsius . I almost died lol.

^^ :nuts:

I was comparing the heat relative for Sotex. Dallas (and many other southern cities in the USA) in summer can often be 36C or hotter with 90% humidity. It is something we just do not know in South Africa. If it's that hot here, it's dry with little humidity. Trying to give things in his perspective. Nothing wrong with it to say SA's climate is gorgeous. Really didn't mean to degrade your opinion, just give him a "relative" opinion.

Who says I'm talking about SA. I was in Perth during a 46C heatwave and I've also been to Egypt. Obviously SA won't be as warm but it's by no means mild (I hate mild anyway)

We dont need a gautrain since the only traffic we have is ducks geese an chickens ;) We have our own river in our garden , with indigenous fish and bird life not just hadedas and pigeons :P beat that centurion .
Love it!! Biaaatch!

There is no winter in Texas.

u sure u live in texas? cuz san marcus is like 35 mins away from san antonio.....its winter right now.....i have been freezing my ass off in this weather.

u sure u live in texas? cuz san marcus is like 35 mins away from san antonio.....its winter right now.....i have been freezing my ass off in this weather.

Yea, I went running last night and it was freeezing

Yea, I went running last night and it was freeezing

dallas is worst than san antonio when it comes to winter since dallas is up north.....last year when i went to dallas for the xmas break we had snow and i was skidding all over the place....i might go back this xmas break if my got damn car is fixed for the 4 hours drive.

dallas is worst than san antonio when it comes to winter since dallas is up north.....last year when i went to dallas for the xmas break we had snow and i was skidding all over the place....i might go back this xmas break if my got damn car is fixed for the 4 hours drive.

Ah you mean the C'mas blizzard haha. When I moved here everyone told me it never snowed so I wasn't expecting much last winter but we got what, 14inche? We got like 12'' in one storm at our house.

Ah you mean the C'mas blizzard haha. When I moved here everyone told me it never snowed so I wasn't expecting much last winter but we got what, 14inche? We got like 12'' in one storm at our house.

Dallas is a mixture of the east coast and west coast...thats why l love it there...

Ok guys, Im moving back home next year, where do I go? JHB is my hometown, but I love Cape Town. Difference is that Im setting up my own company (renewable energy), instead of looking for a job!
Whos got the best looking women?:) Oh, never mind, Im married...

Definitely the Cape. Renewable Energy is our up-and coming strategic sector. All three of SA's PV manufacturers are in Cape Town, all the wind power is in the Cape. Two large Solar Power Plants are mooted for the Western and Northern Cape. I have inside info. You may want to PM me... have close ties to these investors. I have inside info regarding SA's proposed centre of excellence for green technology. The Western Cape is arguably SA's "greenest province" with the PGWC Dept. of Economic Development making it policy and recently launching the "Green Cape Initiative" and actually throwing money at the policy and organisation thereof.

Have to give the Cape credit for this one.. they did jump on the Renewables sector early on and it seems to be paying dividends slowly but surely for them..

^^Me too, they doing well in the Cape regarding Green Energy. It is the first place I saw the Variable Message Signs on the highway powered by a small turbine and solar panel.
However they don't have solar powered traffic lights like we do in Jozi, suck on that Kaapies, :)

Not all the wind power is in the Cape Annman, quite a few projects happening in the Eastern Cape, although these are all still at the initial stages. I have seen the documents, if everything goes up it will be massive.

Sotex: It depends if you want to work in the Public or Private Sector. Your best bet would be to get in touch with some EIA companies. You would need to develop a very tough skin working in Government. It is not easy in the Public Sector in South Africa.

^^ Well true... PE and surrounds is perfect for wind!

As far as i know, the Cape is initiating a conversation of all traffic signals to energy efficient LED lighting. In Cape Town, a use of only solar for such things isn't viable, as in winter they may not function, hence our ITS (Intelligent Traffic System) being a wind-solar hybrid system.

Some interesting developments in SA's Water Sector

New SA-US alliance to shake up water treatment sector


http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/new-sa-us-alliance-to-shake-up-water-treatment-sector-2010-11-26

Consulting engineering firm tackles water projects


http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/consulting-engineering-firm-tackles-water-projects-2010-12-03

And some more here:

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/page/weeklyfeatures-4/cat_id:1767

Definitely the Cape. Renewable Energy is our up-and coming strategic sector. All three of SA's PV manufacturers are in Cape Town, all the wind power is in the Cape. Two large Solar Power Plants are mooted for the Western and Northern Cape. I have inside info. You may want to PM me... have close ties to these investors. I have inside info regarding SA's proposed centre of excellence for green technology. The Western Cape is arguably SA's "greenest province" with the PGWC Dept. of Economic Development making it policy and recently launching the "Green Cape Initiative" and actually throwing money at the policy and organisation thereof.

Thanks Annman! Will give you a hoot in 2 or 3 months time! Do you by any chance have any reliable info on the mooted massive solar power plant for Upington? Will be the biggest in the world if all phases are completed.

^^ Yes I do... but the Upington plant is still speculative. What ESKOM and the Dept. of Energy will not tell you is the investors prefer the Western Cape to host PV technology. They say although Upington is great on irradiation resources; it's too hot (inhibits the efficiency of PV), is too far (from population centres of power consumption) and is too isolated (needs all new transmission infrastructure).

I'll be able to give you info that is obscure and had-to-find, but within public domain of either open participation processes or otherwise. Some stuff I'll have to keep to myself. ;)

The IRP2010 (Integrated Resource Plan) needs to be finalised before any private power project can see the light of day. That document should be finalised first-thing next year.

Filthy rich is an understatement.


So rich you dont need to bath... filthy

What ESKOM and the Dept. of Energy will not tell you is the investors prefer the Western Cape to host PV technology.

Dude I know you're a Cape uberpatriot, but again I ask where do you get these interesting tidbits? You honestly think the Western Cape will be better for PV solar or any kind of solar than the N.Cape? Pull the other one mate...

...

Dude I know you're a Cape uberpatriot, but again I ask where do you get these interesting tidbits? You honestly think the Western Cape will be better for PV solar or any kind of solar than the N.Cape? Pull the other one mate...
Do you know how PV works?

Do you know PV's efficiency is a combination of cool temperatures and solar irradiation? Temperatures over 30C slowly decreases PV's photon-to-electrical conversation with an increase in temperature.

Sutherland would actually be the ideal place anywhere in SA for it (cold and dry), but it doesn't have a high enough KV-rated transmission line yet. This is in the Northern Cape.

The driest place in SA is the Tankwa Karoo, between Ceres and Calvinia, on the Western/Northern Cape border. Not actually Upington.

The investors are looking for this combination:
Cool Temperatures; Dry Climate; Sufficient transmission line infrastructure; Visibility; Proximity to Consumers.
How is the above irrational?

Substantiate before you accuse. I am in contact with the ACTUAL investors who are involved in the Upington project... I cannot help it if the Western Cape is diverse and is well-suited for different types of technology and has the existing infrastructure needed.

^^What about CSP? Is the W. Cape also ideal for that as well? And what about space? To generate a meaningful amount of solar power (GW) you need loads of space. The point about diminishing efficinency as the temp goes up is valid but I doubt that it nullifies all the other advantages, primarily space-wise, the N.CApe has over the W.Cape...

^^ Transmission infrastructure and location will always trump "space."

Land is less expensive than laying high-capacity KV lines to a remote location where land is cheaper.

The Western Cape east and north of the Hex River Valley is practically empty anyway, how is space a problem here? Population density of the Ceres, Tankwa, Moordenaars and Great Karoo areas are the same as the Northern Cape and these areas make up 40% of all the WC's land area.

CSP is probably more efficient in the Northern Cape as heat actually helps the power generation, but CSP requires water, which limits its possible location to directly adjacent to the Orange River. With large CSP plants, again, transmission will be an issue. (Although using a Stirling Engine for generation could bring water requirements down)

Power should be generated as close as is practically possible to where it is consumed.

Do you know how PV works?

Do you know PV's efficiency is a combination of cool temperatures and solar irradiation? Temperatures over 30C slowly decreases PV's photon-to-electrical conversation with an increase in temperature.

Sutherland would actually be the ideal place anywhere in SA for it (cold and dry), but it doesn't have a high enough KV-rated transmission line yet. This is in the Northern Cape.

The driest place in SA is the Tankwa Karoo, between Ceres and Calvinia, on the Western/Northern Cape border. Not actually Upington.

The investors are looking for this combination:
Cool Temperatures; Dry Climate; Sufficient transmission line infrastructure; Visibility; Proximity to Consumers.
How is the above irrational?

Substantiate before you accuse. I am in contact with the ACTUAL investors who are involved in the Upington project... I cannot help it if the Western Cape is diverse and is well-suited for different types of technology and has the existing infrastructure needed.

I thought that the Northern Cape solar park was in the initial scoping phase? I might be wrong, but i am certain i saw a document regarding it.

^^ It is in its scoping phase... but during the meetings with the Dept. of Energy, NERSA and ESKOM regarding the IRP2010, there were major concerns and questions raised around viability of power plants in areas where no transmission capacity exists.

The Upington project will probably still occur, but not on the scale originally envisioned. There is a push to decentralise power generation.

Are there quite a few American ex-pats in Cape Town?

we are renting a house for 2 weeks in tambourskloof in June and the lady who owns it is from Austin. She met and married a SA guy and lives in CT and loves it, my wife is Australian and we are in the process of moving to SA

we are renting a house for 2 weeks in tambourskloof in June and the lady who owns it is from Austin. She met and married a SA guy and lives in CT and loves it, my wife is Australian and we are in the process of moving to SA

What possessed you to turn traitor and marry the enemy? :P

In all seriousness though, its awesome to see so many people who have been overseas for an extended time, planning to bring their lives back to this country.

couldent find a saffer chick to put up with my shit

Im also joining the bandwagon... coming home AFTER 20 YEARS!!!!!:banana:
ToxicBunny, our country has so much potential, we just need the right people and minds and this could be Heaven on Earth.
Despite all the challenges as we all know, those who have their eyes wide open can make a killing (financially speaking), and the lifestyle is really great!

^^
Hoping to get down too eventually!

Sorry for the absense, been busy with finals!

Im also joining the bandwagon... coming home AFTER 20 YEARS!!!!!:banana:
ToxicBunny, our country has so much potential, we just need the right people and minds and this could be Heaven on Earth.
Despite all the challenges as we all know, those who have their eyes wide open can make a killing (financially speaking), and the lifestyle is really great!

Damn straight... This country has so much potential to be Heaven on Earth in so many ways....

Potential is there, its just the tiny matters that need to be ironed out.

We all need to work together to bring the best out of our country...there's unlimited opportunities...We are alive with possibilities...

http://luniquepersians.webs.com/south_africa_flag_wave2.jpg

Whats up all, this is my first post so if it posted in the wrong place, my bad ha. Im getting ready to finish up grad school (masters in Hydrology/Water Resources Management) in the U.S. I have been wanting to live abroad for a while and South Africa is one of the places that keeps catching my eye. Would it be relatively easy for me to get a job there with my degree? And how's living there? I understand there's crime and all that, but is it easy to avoid? Thanks for all the help ya'll.

Hey Mate!

SA is a great place, and work contrary to the popular belief is not hard to find if you look hard enough. With your degree I believe finding a job wont be that difficult. The best place to start would be to approach SA's various water boards and Municipalities or keep an eye out on a site called indeed.co.za the jobs they list are syndicated from the top job sites in SA so you only have to look in one place and you can set up alerts which is quite convenient.
I you decide to come visit I could recommend accommodation right through out SA.

Private property is a person? I thought it was a bot :/

in its case, I don't think there is much difference.

:laugh:

Sorry for raining on the parade a bit here but do you have work experience mate? SA will not give you a visa under the current immigration laws unless you have significant work experience in your field. I think its two years post qualified experience in a scarce area.

To answer your other question there are plently of brits and germans in cape town (but they tend to have been here for quite a while). Not come across too many americans though.

Sorry for raining on the parade a bit here but do you have work experience mate? SA will not give you a visa under the current immigration laws unless you have significant work experience in your field. I think its two years post qualified experience in a scarce area.

To answer your other question there are plently of brits and germans in cape town (but they tend to have been here for quite a while). Not come across too many americans though.

That blows, no I dont have "job" experience, im still in grad school. I have interned for quite a while but im guessing thats not good enough to get a job? Thanks for the heads up.

Hi guys,
I have a question relating to SA visas that appears to be ambiguously answered on the Home Affairs website, and the SA High Commission in London.
My wife is South African, and we live in the UK. Once we have been married for 5 years, I would be entitled to emigrate to SA with her, should we decide to move, with a Spouse Visa. However, does it entitle me to work?! Obviously I'd like to be able to earn a living!
http://www.dha.gov.za/Types%20of%20temporary%20residence%20permits.html
(under relatives permit)
Thanks
signol

^^ If you are married to a South African citizen, especially after 5 years (showing Home Affairs that it isn't a marriage of convenience ;) ), you should be able to easily obtain a permanent residency permit... this will give you access to all job opportunities and give you unlimited residency in SA for as long as you want.

my mum has been on a SA permanent residency for over 40 years and has never got citerzinship

^^ If you are married to a South African citizen, especially after 5 years (showing Home Affairs that it isn't a marriage of convenience ;) ), you should be able to easily obtain a permanent residency permit... this will give you access to all job opportunities and give you unlimited residency in SA for as long as you want.

Thanks, that's what I thought :)

signol

..(showing Home Affairs that it isn't a marriage of convenience ;) )

I thought marriage was about having sex with convenience... ;)

^^ Naughty man! :lol:

That blows, no I dont have "job" experience, im still in grad school. I have interned for quite a while but im guessing thats not good enough to get a job? Thanks for the heads up.

I disagree. Have met and know many who have their first jobs in Cape Town, whether its architecture or the sciences or commerce.
UCT is filled with Americans, to the point, where a coffee shop on Main Road is filled with more Americans then Capetonians.

The diversity however is not limited to areas out of Africa, with a large contingent of students from the rest of Africa.

^^ It is in its scoping phase... but during the meetings with the Dept. of Energy, NERSA and ESKOM regarding the IRP2010, there were major concerns and questions raised around viability of power plants in areas where no transmission capacity exists.

The Upington project will probably still occur, but not on the scale originally envisioned. There is a push to decentralise power generation.

How does this new body "GreenCape" help the WC to get ready to benefit from major gov investment in Green Energy?

I disagree. Have met and know many who have their first jobs in Cape Town, whether its architecture or the sciences or commerce.
UCT is filled with Americans, to the point, where a coffee shop on Main Road is filled with more Americans then Capetonians.

The diversity however is not limited to areas out of Africa, with a large contingent of students from the rest of Africa.

Agreed! I have family who have gone recently too SA with a degree, no citizenship or residency, and got a job within weeks!
Sotex, sniff around, their are companies willing to give you all you need too live/work in SA for your required skills.

How does this new body "GreenCape" help the WC to get ready to benefit from major gov investment in Green Energy?

Honestly, not 100% sure, because its a brand new initiative and just got acquainted with the CEO of the initiative at the NERSA/Dept. of Energy IRP2010 public hearing on 29 Nov, so hasn't been long. Although, from what I could glean, is that it's under the PGWC Dept. of Economic Development and they cooperate closely with Wesgro.

23 November 2011, Im comming home

Whoop Whoop! SA Boy is coming home!
:dance:

Sorry for raining on the parade a bit here but do you have work experience mate? SA will not give you a visa under the current immigration laws unless you have significant work experience in your field. I think its two years post qualified experience in a scarce area.

To answer your other question there are plently of brits and germans in cape town (but they tend to have been here for quite a while). Not come across too many americans though.



Yeap, I have recently read an article (in a German magazine) dealing with Germans in South Africa and the Cape Region in particular. It was said that they are more Germans dwelling in the Cape Region than on the Spanish island of Mallorca. The magazine put the figure at approx. 40 000. I was pleasantly surprised because the island of Mallorca is Germany´s "darling": droves of desperately sun-seeking Germans have their second home over there in order to escape the biting cold of winter...believe it or not but back in the 1990s they even pleaded to buy off large patches of the island which was turned down by Spain - much to the displeasure of Germans and Germany.

The Cape Region as a whole is pretty present in German media.

I have run in to loads of Germans and Swedes over the season, not sure if it is an extra influx because of the world cup, but they are certainly here in numbers.

I work with around 30 Germans...:D

it's a shame that countries like SA that most need to improve the quality of their human capital have such restrictive immigration policies. There is no doubt in my mind that the thread starter here would make a positive contribution where ever he goes (as he is probably relatively wealthy and educated). Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of illegal Zimbabwean are being fast tracked to permanent residency without any requirement whatsoever in terms of skills or mean of supporting themselves.

edit: apparently the law is about to get even tougher http://business.iafrica.com/news/701556.html

So Im late posting but I have to put in my input. I'm American but stayed in SA for 3 weeks (in Joburg and Cape Town.) I LOVE South Africa. I'm from Tennessee so I do have a southern drawl lol, but most South Africans I met just thought of it as a strong american accent haha. From all my research, I have to conclude that you will most likely be more successful in Joburg than elsewhere in South Africa. Cape Town though, is downright beautiful! I loved visiting Cape Town. Though I also really liked Gauteng too, (Sandton is a blast!) Personally I would live in Joburg and on R&R (vacation break) travel to Cape Town or Durban. I have many relatives in Alabama (mostly B'ham) and in Dallas/Fort Worth area (southlake, super rich place lol) so I visit there often and the Gauteng suburbia (the Sandton-Midrand-Centurion area) is very similar to Dallas suburbia in a way. One thing about SA thats awesome, are the malls! I'm a guy so malls arent so much my thing but South African malls are incredible! Like Sandton City Mall, Melrose Arch, Montecasino you name it. The only crime that affected my was someone broke into the trunk of my car and stole my chips and dip I was bringing to a party (ok?) and that happened to me in Rosebank. Gauteng is more my lifestyle for living but I would visit CT as much as I could. There is a suburb in Gauteng that has a very small town, relaxed feel and that is Irene which is kinda in between Pretoria and Centurion. It is centered around a large dairy farm and I kinda felt like I was in Southern Kentucky. In SA there are 3 kinds of places to live for an expat, a single home surrounded by high security fences, an apartment (Sandton) or in a house in an enclosed security estate. I hope this info helps and I was trying to be as unbiased as possible.

How easy it to become a history/social studies teacher in South Africa for a foreigner? As some you may or may not have known I was planning on going to UCT for my undergraduate and then my graduate studies, but those plans unfortunately never really worked out for me. But after I get my undergrad here in the States, I want to get my PGCE in South Africa. As for any kind people answering my question, to clarify as to where I'd like to teach, I'd prefer an urban area but I don't care if it is a state school with large class sizes. Is this feasible?

From my perspective of having lived in Pretoria and having a lot of family members who are teachers I would advise you to try to get a job at a private school since salaries there are better in general.

An advantage that I would assume you have is that your mother tongue is English so it would be easier to get a job at a private school since most of them are English schools.

I am not sure it this is true but I have heard that there is a fetish among public school departments to promote black empowerment so this may be to your disadvantage or possibly advantage.

You might dislike being a teacher for the particular subjects mentioned since people in general dislike history and social studies.

On your actual question....:lol:

I think it is easy to become a teacher, but it would be to your advantage if you have a quality or something that sets you apart from other teachers.

These would include:

-Being able to train a team for a sport like Netball, Soccer, Rugby, Cricket, Softball, Swimming etc...

-Having good (fair) disciplinary skills.

-Being able to teach more than one subject.

-As a person who used to be in an South African School from when I was seven until I was 14 years old I would say that creativity and a different approach to teaching would help you to gain reputation.

I will add more information for you later if I can think about anything else. Hope this will help.:lol:

This certainly does help! Obviously, employment at a private school is preferable, the thing I was saying is that I'm okay with taking the job at the state school if that's the only one left. By the time I've graduated from college here in America I plan on being fluent in French, to add some depth in what I could teach and also I've always wanted to be fluent. I'm avid about soccer I would love being involved in a school's soccer program. It's just I'm afraid that if I go get my PGCE in South Africa, I may not be able to find a job.

To get a PGCE in SA, you need to have 2 school subjects in your undergraduate degree, one at the first year level, the other at second year level. You shouldn't have much of a problem finding a job as a teacher, but you'll have to understand that even at a private school you won't start off with a mammoth salary if you have no experience.

My suggestion would be to seek employment at a previous Model C school. Promotions there are faster than in the private sector. Get a couple of years experience, get heavily involved in inter-school sports and activities and after a couple of years you'll be head-hunted by the private schools.

I understand the issue with salary for any beginning teacher anywhere across the globe. Now, what do you mean by two school subjects? I think I might understand, does that mean a major and a minor? Because I plan to major in history while minoring in French. What is a previous Model C school?

Sorry to be a pooper on this but to get a work permit in SA your employer has to prove that it cannot fill the post with a South African (and home affairs really do enforce this). This would be nigh on impossible for a history teacher with no prior experience. I am afraid I can say with about 99% certainty that you would not get a work permit.

Sorry to be a pooper on this but to get a work permit in SA your employer has to prove that it cannot fill the post with a South African (and home affairs really do enforce this). This would be nigh on impossible for a history teacher with no prior experience. I am afraid I can say with about 99% certainty that you would not get a work permit.

This is disappointing. I just assumed with the state of education in South Africa that the country would need teachers considering its building more and more schools each teach and such. To clarify I would be able to become a French teacher too. This is a drag :(

^^

Maybe you could try an International School. I am not sure if SA has any, but I would assume that it does.

Anyway, (I know this sounds harsh) I am not sure if most South Africans would like being taught by a foreigner so you might want to check first because your experience might turn shit (They are basically very Patriotic). That is just based on my experience of living in Pretoria as I have stated before…

No no no - don't agree with that bit about not wanting to be taught by a foreigner at ALL.
The work permit may be an issue - but not that! It is tough to get work permits anywhere these days (like in the UK), but there is always a chance if there are not enough people to fill the positions.

No no no - don't agree with that bit about not wanting to be taught by a foreigner at ALL.



Sorry I know it sounds really offensive, but from my experience that is the case. I know a lot of SA'ns that make fun of foreigners, but I could be completely wrong.

I don't agree with the foreigner thing at all, either.

Maybe this is another thing that is different between Gauteng and the Cape...

I am just going to justify this in a completely different way...

Do South Africans expect foreigners to assimilate when they move to South Africa or can they live with their cultures and values?

I can also point out that there is not really cultural integration in communities. This is why there is a thing such as majority white vs. majority black suburbs etcetera...

I know that these things are changing but it is happening slowly and people still tend to hold onto their cultures like babies who don’t want to leave their Mom.

And to make you all feel better I will also include that this is not only unique to South Africa but can be found all over the world.... :)

But we're so Americanised in some way that American culture is hardly something the average urban South African would mock.

America isn't all like the movies...

1.What if he/she has an accent? - Would they be excepting of it or not.

2.He/She might also have certain religious and cultural views that would not be tolerated by many.

etc...etc...etc...

He/She would therefore be trapped in a country as a minority and this could pretty much mess up his/her life so everything that I have said might affect him/her depending on the type of person that he/she is.

I am still optimistic that this would change in the future though for SA.:cheers:

^^

Maybe you could try an International School. I am not sure if SA has any, but I would assume that it does.

Anyway, (I know this sounds harsh) I am not sure if most South Africans would like being taught by a foreigner so you might want to check first because your experience might turn shit (They are basically very Patriotic). That is just based on my experience of living in Pretoria as I have stated before…

I have to say you must have lived in a very strange part of Pretoria...

I studied in Natal, spent alot of time at UP, Wits, UCT, Stellies etc... and there were foreign lecturers and nobody had an issue with them, if anything they were some of the best teachers there.

I have to say you must have lived in a very strange part of Pretoria...

I studied in Natal, spent alot of time at UP, Wits, UCT, Stellies etc... and there were foreign lecturers and nobody had an issue with them, if anything they were some of the best teachers there.

I lived in a part that I would prefer not to name due to the stereotypes for it. - The Waterkloof area if you really want to know..........

Anyway since I was young I have been involved in the following areas due to my daily live:

In Pretoria:

-Montana Area
-Tuinrand Area
-Elarduspark Area
-Waterkloof Area
-Moreleta Park Area
-Menlyn Area
-Meyerspark Aea
-Groenkoof Area

Then in Centurion:

-Pierre van Ryneveld Area
-Centurion Area
-Lytelton Area
-Hennopspark Area
-Rooihuiskraal Area

I dont think being a foreigner wold be an issue at a social level but you simply will not be able to get a work permit as just a graduate with no teaching experience. I know a bit about the process having advised several clients on it and you simply would not pass the tests in the immigration act. Sorry buddy.

I understand the issue with salary for any beginning teacher anywhere across the globe. Now, what do you mean by two school subjects? I think I might understand, does that mean a major and a minor? Because I plan to major in history while minoring in French. What is a previous Model C school?

Firstly, I don't agree with VCollaborator at all. Especially considering you have a French minor, you would probably be able to get a school to prove they need you. Also, you would be applying for a student visa initially, not a work visa which would mean you could build relationships with possible employers while you were doing teaching practicals.

In terms of "patriotic South Africans" being hostile to a foreigner (especially a foreigner from the west)... well that's just bullshit and not at all representative of the general population. If anything, you would be a novelty for about a week and then no one would even notice. Making fun of foreigners is completely different to being hostile. My father is English. Everyone jokes about his messed up accent and I've lived in a number of different countries as a 'foreigner'. I've been laughed at for my accent, but then again, I laugh at theirs too. Like Lydon said, what is so different from a westerner's culture that we're not used to here? Hello! We're the RAINBOW NATION! :banana: If Pretoria is like VCollab makes it out (which I doubt) I'm glad I've never spent more than a week there. If you want a list of the places I've been "involved in" since I was young, then good luck. I don't have that kind of patience.

So, to get back to the real question:
What I mean by a school subject is a subject area taught by South African schools. For instance, if I had a degree in psychology and French, having had psychology courses for two years and having done French as a minor, I would then apply for a PGCE to teach Life Orientation/Counselling and French. Seeing as you have a History major and a French minor, you would then qualify as a History and/or French teacher. There's quite a bit of wiggle room with this though. If I had a minor in physiology, I could teach school biology even if I never took a biology course in college/university.

A model C school is a school which in the early 90's converted to multiracial early on and chose to be governed (semi-independently) by a governing body of parents and teachers whilst still receiving instruction and funding from government. These are government schools which now, generally, are more financially sound. Because they some autonomy in terms of hiring and a bit more financial muscle, the working conditions are generally better.

Your only real issue is the work permit. Your French qualification is invaluable there. Just be aware that it might not be the easiest thing to get a job because of politics. Studying should be pretty straight-forward.

This is simply horrible. I can't stress to you enough how much I don't want to be in America after my college years. I'll even get a doctorate in Education to make myself eligible for a work permit. I thought I could get a work permit too because the government website says "Applications by skilled workers in occupations for which there is a shortage in the country are encouraged." I just assumed there was a shortage of teachers, unless the government isn't building new schools and is content with the irresponsibly large classroom sizes.

There are actually many many unemployed teachers in SA (and no the government is not embarking on a particularly large school building programme either) and it is not on the scarce skills list which is the only way around the impossible to hire a south african citizen test. You also would not pass the at least 2 years post qualified experience test either so it is basically a no. As it is you are not eligable for a South African work permit. You could perhaps try Botswana as I know their immigration rules are a lot more liberal than ours.

America isn't all like the movies...

1.What if he/she has an accent? - Would they be excepting of it or not.

2.He/She might also have certain religious and cultural views that would not be tolerated by many.

etc...etc...etc...

He/She would therefore be trapped in a country as a minority and this could pretty much mess up his/her life so everything that I have said might affect him/her depending on the type of person that he/she is.

I am still optimistic that this would change in the future though for SA.:cheers:

I never said it was? UCT is filled with foreign students and there are many foreign lecturers and no one has an issue with them.

I've experienced the total opposite to what you're arguing, which is why I'm confused as to where it comes from.

I also am VERY confused as to where its opinion comes from, as I have spent a fair chunk of time in the areas it listed and never even vaguely experienced that kind of attitude from people... to me as a foreigner to the area, or any of my friends from the area who were foreign, or foreigners who had just moved into the area...

If anything people went OUT of their way to make the foreigners feel welcome.

What stereotypes regarding the Waterkloof area are you talking about VC?.. are you talking about those idiotic school kids who make up the Waterkloof 4? If you are, and you think people stereotype an area because of kids actions, then you have ALOT of growing up still to do.

I dont know much about this topic, so I'm just going to make educated guesses.

Kifayat, you might get more success in finding a job in provinces like Northern Cape, Free State, North West, Mpumalanga, or Eastern Cape. Places like Guateng, Durban, & Cape Town are very desirable for foreigners and expats, so finding a job in those locations might be difficult. If you want to get a decent salary, look into private schools. South Africa has plenty of them. Or like joburg2011 said, look into an International School. I used to go to an international American school while I lived in Qatar, and I know of two in SA: American International School of Johannesburg, and American International School of Cape Town.


Also, a topic I know even less about, is getting a work permit in Namibia difficult? Namibia's cities and infrastructure is just as developed as South Africa's..just a side thought.

This video might help y'all who think that I am crazy. Read my general summary of what I think of SA's sociology at the moment.

A3kS1FIP9ic

What many of them described as racism is in some cases discrimination.

This scenario of people who doesn't like people who speaks a different language than them, eat different food etc. etc. etc. does not only apply to local vs local situation but also to a local vs foreigner situation.

The girl who talks from 1:20 - 1:52 has a very valid point ( she explains exactly my view about the social situation in South Africa). Everybody is very nice with each other in the corporate (public) environment, but behind closed doors there is still the same old feelings and thoughts against each other.

This also applies to the local vs foreigner situation because there is an hospitable attitude towards foreigners but at the end of the day this is only because of money. There is also many locals who don't work in a hospitality field and one will find that they have preconceived ideas about these people when they haven't even met them in real life (I think most South Africans have never met foreigners...).

I am therefore saying that most people in South Africa live in their own little bubble of preconceived perceptions.

This is not the same with all people but in my opinion it is the same for most people. This is also the situation in other countries so don't think I am saying this only about South Africa, but I still think the SA's case is very extreme.

What stereotypes regarding the Waterkloof area are you talking about VC?.. are you talking about those idiotic school kids who make up the Waterkloof 4? If you are, and you think people stereotype an area because of kids actions, then you have ALOT of growing up still to do.

Its the perception that everybody who lives there is rich b...hes and think that they can do what they want... This has been there even before the "Waterkloof Vier" .

People in SA definitely treat you differently. For example in our one house in we got a plumber from the Drain Surgeon to come and fix a blocked drain (this was just before we moved to our new house) we then got a plumber at our new house in Waterkloof and they charged us double the money for the same job. :lol:

I am therefore saying that most people in South Africa live in their own little bubble of preconceived perceptions.

This is your first statement that I can actually agree with... and you are a classic example of living in a bubble of preconceived perceptions that has absolutely NO basis in reality whatsoever.

There are actually many many unemployed teachers in SA (and no the government is not embarking on a particularly large school building programme either) and it is not on the scarce skills list which is the only way around the impossible to hire a south african citizen test. You also would not pass the at least 2 years post qualified experience test either so it is basically a no. As it is you are not eligable for a South African work permit. You could perhaps try Botswana as I know their immigration rules are a lot more liberal than ours.

as far as I know the list itself is a bit of a myth. It hasn't been updated since 2007.

This is your first statement that I can actually agree with... and you are a classic example of living in a bubble of preconceived perceptions that has absolutely NO basis in reality whatsoever.

WTF?

Is this your way of saying that "I am wrong you have a valid point"

Anyway there is also many advantages of living in a bubble. One of those advantages that I really miss about SA is that you don't hear about all the international shit. You therefore have a more optimistic outlook on life... :lol:

No, its my way of saying you have a preconceived perception of how people react to foreigners in this country and its not accurate..

Let me guess, you're basing that preconception on the stories of Xenophobia that you've read in the papers recently.

And again, your little bubble regarding life in SA is wrong.. we DO hear about all the international shit, but its just that... international shit so we just get on with life.

Just interacting with you in this thread brings up the question for me... how old are you exactly?... because you don't sound like you've left school and experienced the real world yet.

Ek het nog in Suid Afrika gebly toe die eerste xenofobiese aanvalle gebeur het so nee ek het nie die bespreking begin asgevolg van dit nie want ek weet dat die internationale media oor reageer.:cheers:

Wat is dit met jou en al die beledigings?

Ja ek is nog in die skool maar ek het 'n werk so ek weet hoe die lewe is.:lol:

I am therefore saying that most people in South Africa live in their own little bubble of preconceived perceptions.

That's quite ironic.

Ja ek is nog in die skool maar ek het 'n werk so ek weet hoe die lewe is.:lol:

Thought as much...

It doesn't matter if you have a job... you're still at school and under the protective wing of your parents... That has a tendency of sheltering a person from what realities of the world.

This is not meant as a negative towards you, its an observation, and something you will only begin to accept once you've finished school and matured sufficiently.

Thought as much...

It doesn't matter if you have a job... you're still at school and under the protective wing of your parents... That has a tendency of sheltering a person from what realities of the world.

This is not meant as a negative towards you, its an observation, and something you will only begin to accept once you've finished school and matured sufficiently.

So how does that make my point invalid?

Because you are exposed to an incredibly limited cross section of the world, and its a cross section that invariably will mirror your preconceptions or at least share a fair percentage of them, and thus strengthen them....

Because you are exposed to an incredibly limited cross section of the world, and its a cross section that invariably will mirror your preconceptions or at least share a fair percentage of them, and thus strengthen them....

How would you know?:ohno:

My point on the whole preconceived perception thing has now been proven thank you very much... :rofl:

How would you know?:ohno:

Its very obvious, due to YOUR preconceptions.
But anyway this discussion is entirely irrelevant to the thread, since I doubt you are going to be coming back to SA anytime soon...

Its very obvious, due to YOUR preconceptions.


How did I form an idea before an experience if I have lived in South Africa for most of my life? :nuts:

Hi VCollab. I know you're going to be incredibly offended by this, but just give up. You're not winning, and you're not grasping what anyone else is talking about. No one is saying your opinion is not valid. What is being said is that your experience in life does not justify the sweeping conclusions you have made about the population. There is nothing you can really do to change what you believe to be true right now, but if you want to have a laugh in a couple of years (although I'm guessing it'll be more embarrassing than funny) I think you should save this discussion somewhere and look at it again in five years. After you have left home, or gone to university and experienced the world through your own eyes, you'll understand why everyone here has such a problem with what you are saying.

You'll see all of this as a personal attack, but believe me it isn't. I was the same when I was younger, and I'm guessing the others in this discussion were too. That's the reason we're able to understand why you are saying what you are saying.

back love it best move i made
slow internet , phwaaa NOT ,4 gig line cooks 24/7 and un shaped and un throtled
Telkom absolutly amazing with customer service and i never thought Id say that
MWEB so easy to deal with
car easy to buy even easier to transfer and reregister
mobile a bit of a mission with RICA but done with a mate
buying house this week and banks etc a breeze
job offers galore
2 days in joburg on business, flew club on BA and was only 1 in the cabin which was a bit strange
hired car in joburg and wow what a change and what a dynamic and insanley energetic city

all in all a great move and very happy with everything

Gotta say congrats SA_Boy....

Good that you're back and loving it... now you also know why we haven't all jumped ship and left yet.. :).. this place rocks.

AWESOME that you are actually physically back, and going through the setup phases!

Congratulations and just wait till you get the 'paperwork' out the way and start living the lifestyle - it just gets better from here.

Also, that is what I have been saying all along - I found the internet, car stuff, house and bank stuff all straightforward.
I had good service everywhere, even at Home Affairs - maybe its just attitude, or the way we smile - but I was never on the same page as people saying 'nothing works here' etc etc.

I mean, I was expecting hassles in that area, but still willing to put up with it to be in Cape Town BUT the fact that all that went smoothly was just a total bonus.

If you are in the region, try get out to the Bastille Festival this weekend in Franschoek - it is excellent, a blast for Adults and kids alike...

Hi VCollab. I know you're going to be incredibly offended by this, but just give up. You're not winning, and you're not grasping what anyone else is talking about. No one is saying your opinion is not valid. What is being said is that your experience in life does not justify the sweeping conclusions you have made about the population. There is nothing you can really do to change what you believe to be true right now, but if you want to have a laugh in a couple of years (although I'm guessing it'll be more embarrassing than funny) I think you should save this discussion somewhere and look at it again in five years. After you have left home, or gone to university and experienced the world through your own eyes, you'll understand why everyone here has such a problem with what you are saying.

You'll see all of this as a personal attack, but believe me it isn't. I was the same when I was younger, and I'm guessing the others in this discussion were too. That's the reason we're able to understand why you are saying what you are saying.

Firstly I don't get incredibly offended by people who have a mature conversation with me.:lol:

I have never seen any of your views as invalid I was just justifying mine and I am happy for all of you to have your view. ToxicBunny did obviously launch a personal attack against me by implying that I am immature and that my opinion is therefore invalid so don't act as if I am sensitive.

If you read my whole discussion you will see that:

1. I have stated that I might be completely wrong.

2. I have admitted that this might be different between Gauteng and the Cape

3. I have said that this also happens all over the world.

4. I have said that there is still optimism in me that SA might change.

5. I have asked the question about assimilation in SA and nobody responded.

6. I have admitted that the situation that I have experienced is changing, but slowly.

I really can't see how I have not been open to others opinions.:lol:

The funniest thing of all is that it seems like many of you are acting as if I said that life in SA is KAK when I really didn't. My life in SA was better that the life that I have in AUS, but I feel as if there are social problems that I feel is very important and I don't think that SA have done much to address these problems that in my opinion will break or make the future of SA.

Cheers and enjoy life.:cheers:

Just to reply to a few of your points..

2) ... its not like that in Gauteng in the first place.. there is very little difference in terms of how foreigners are treated in Gauteng or the Cape

4) There is a need for SA to change, yes, but not in the way you think... its already a bloody good place in terms of being a foreigner, like most other places on this planet.

5) Assimilation has happened for a lot of people, its the politicians who blow it way out of proportion. I have friends of all races, religious backgrounds, etc etc... no issue in my world...

6) What you experienced must have been part of a VERY small enclave in Pretoria.... because I never experienced it in Pretoria, and people I have spoken to in the last few days in Pretoria have no idea what I'm talking about when I ask them.

There are very definitely social problems in SA, and they are very important to fix.. but the general population is fixing them, faster than you think.

I'm so upset the low likelihood that I will get a work permit, especially considering the fact I read an article not too long ago about KZN having thousands of teachers who are woefully unqualified for the job (No M.eD or PGCE, some no undergrad, some not even finishing secondary school) If I became uniquely highly qualified, as in having a Doctorate in Education, is there a chance I could get a work permit then?

I'm so upset the low likelihood that I will get a work permit, especially considering the fact I read an article not too long ago about KZN having thousands of teachers who are woefully unqualified for the job (No M.eD or PGCE, some no undergrad, some not even finishing secondary school) If I became uniquely highly qualified, as in having a Doctorate in Education, is there a chance I could get a work permit then?

Have you looked into Namibia?

Have you looked into Namibia?
Information is scarce on both Botswana and Namibia, Botswana more mysterious.

Due to the high unemployment rate in SA and Namibia, the government is not keen on letting foreigners fill jobs. There is a loophole though, you can marry a South African or a Namibian woman, and you wont even need a work permit.

Here's the link for a Namibian work permit.

http://www.namibia.org.za/images/application/applic_%20work_permit.pdf

Due to the high unemployment rate in SA and Namibia, the government is not keen on letting foreigners fill jobs. There is a loophole though, you can marry a South African or a Namibian woman, and you wont even need a work permit.
That isn't exactly the path I want to take with immigration :lol:

Due to the high unemployment rate in SA and Namibia, the government is not keen on letting foreigners fill jobs. There is a loophole though, you can marry a South African or a Namibian woman, and you wont even need a work permit.

Though you will still need to wait 5 years after marrying them to be eligable to come to SA and work ;)

signol

I'm so upset the low likelihood that I will get a work permit, especially considering the fact I read an article not too long ago about KZN having thousands of teachers who are woefully unqualified for the job (No M.eD or PGCE, some no undergrad, some not even finishing secondary school) If I became uniquely highly qualified, as in having a Doctorate in Education, is there a chance I could get a work permit then?

Just study Maths and Science teaching, that is considered a scarce skill in SA. If you got that then you're almost guranteed a job. And lastly teaching salaries have improved drastically in SA over the past 5 years. So go for it

Not really much point in "going for it" when home affairs simply will not grant a work permit. Getting the job is not the problem. If you have no actual work experience (minimum two years even having a doctorate or doing maths will mean nothing. It is set out in the rules in plain English that (a) you need to prove no south african can do the job (which you cant as there are thousands of unemployed teachers: yes they may all be crap but they are members of the teaching unions and therefore they count) and (b) you need to have at least two years post qualified experience which you dont have.

This discussion is therefore rather pointless to be honest.

That isn't exactly the path I want to take with immigration :lol:

You could marry a man instead? :D

Just to reply to a few of your points..


5) Assimilation has happened for a lot of people, its the politicians who blow it way out of proportion. I have friends of all races, religious backgrounds, etc etc... no issue in my world...



How can a place be excepting of foreigners if they expect them to assimilate?

People should be able to live (respect it/ be excepting of it) with other people and their way of life (In other words their culture, attitude, beliefs -everything that comes with them in other words) for a place to be truly welcome to other cultures and things.

You might be a model of people who are like what I have described above but there are still a lot of people who are not like that.

Is it just me - or is this conversation dragging on a bit.
Enough on the foreigner thing dude - your experience appears to be very different from the other guys here, but thats fine.

What isn't fine is you telling someone else who wants to come to SA that he will have an issue because he is a foreigner. Thats horseshit.
And if he did experience some anti-foreigner stuff, it would be unusual and as likely to happen anywhere else in the world.

To Kifayat - you can always try with the visa - things change all the time. But it would be worth finding out from the horses mouth exactly what would qualify you, before you change subjects or whatever.

One thing I do know - whether you came here on holiday or to work, you would meet the most fantastic people and have the time of your life.

Now - the rest of you - lets welcome SA BOY back and pester him as to how things are going - its awesome that a long-time member on SSC has made it back home!

How can a place be excepting of foreigners if they expect them to assimilate?

People should be able to live (respect it/ be excepting of it) with other people and their way of life (In other words their culture, attitude, beliefs -everything that comes with them in other words) for a place to be truly welcome to other cultures and things.

You might be a model of people who are like what I have described above but there are still a lot of people who are not like that.

Your second paragraph is exactly what the definition of assimilation is...

However, even in the most accepting of societies, foreigners would need to adapt in some way or form to the cultures and attitudes of a different nation.

Assimilating into our society does not mean that they have to change and become like us. It means that we are understand and fully accept what is normal to them, and they do the same to us in return.

I'm still extremely confused as to where all of this comes from because it's, in mine and the opinion of basically everyone else here, a non-issue.

^^


Assimilation is if you adapt to someone’s culture, attitude, beliefs etc . Not if you respect it. There is a difference.:)

What isn't fine is you telling someone else who wants to come to SA that he will have an issue because he is a foreigner. Thats horseshit.
And if he did experience some anti-foreigner stuff, it would be unusual and as likely to happen anywhere else in the world.


I said that it might be the case I didn't say it will...

bigger chance of that in oz

bigger chance of that in oz

Why do you have to compare SA with AUS? Is it insecurity or what? Seems like you are only doing it to try and piss me off. It is not going to work because I am not a patriot like many of you guys seem to be. :lol:

All that I can say is that Australia from my observation is a place where foreigners in general feel welcome when you look at the demographics of Australia. In my opinion that does involve assimilation though, but I am not going to do that. I have experienced the expectation to assimilate here in Australia from a few people, but only from people of western culture. :bash:

I am planning to move to a country where more than 50% of the country are expats/ immigrants like the UAE etc when I am finished with my studies because this is really the only way in my opinion that I can reach my dream of living amongst true multiculturalism. :happy: :)

Of your whole life, how many years have you spent in Australia vs South Africa?

Of your whole life, how many years have you spent in Australia vs South Africa?

I am 17 ATM and moved to AUS in JUNE 2008.

This means approx 14 years in SA and 3 years in AUS

Did you ever consider that some cultures are hostile towards foreigners? Hence true multiculturalism would include intolerance. What you're asking for is a perfect world. The dream of true multiculturalism is also impossible. You'll never find a place with that many cultures. In fact, cities with large expat communities develop their own culture so you're really out of luck.

What you want is a place that you feel comfortable. This isn't at all about how others treat you, but entirely about how you perceive yourself to be treated.

Did you ever consider that some cultures are hostile towards foreigners? Hence true multiculturalism would include intolerance. What you're asking for is a perfect world. The dream of true multiculturalism is also impossible. You'll never find a place with that many cultures. In fact, cities with large expat communities develop their own culture so you're really out of luck.


I do agree that my dream is kind of unrealistic, but still achievable up to some extent. I am not oblivious to the fact that we don't live in a perfect world. I totally agree that there are cultures like that, but you have to remember that those cultures wouldn’t want to immigrate or be expats either.

I think people who move to other countries are aware that they would have to live with other cultures, so they are therefore excepting of other cultures. This is why I said that I want to move to a place where there is more than 50% of the population who were born in another country. Because for a country to have such a large amount of immigrants/expats mean that most of the locals in the country are excepting of foreigners. The immigrants/expats would also be excepting of other cultures, so this would mean that you would have a cultural melting pot.

I hope you understand my complicated thinking process.:lol:

I hate to burst your bubble a bit....

But whether a country has a large amount of expats/immigrants says absolutely nothing as to whether the local population are accepting of foreigners or not, and only says that there are business and employment opportunities in the country.

I hate to burst your bubble a bit....

But whether a country has a large amount of expats/immigrants says absolutely nothing as to whether the local population are accepting of foreigners or not, and only says that there are business and employment opportunities in the country.

It depends, there is a lot of factors to look at. For instance the time that the business and employment opportunities have existed, because the expats/ immigrants would move away from the country if they didn't like their life's in that country. Some expats might only be into it for the money, but they would eventually realise that they need something else from live and would eventually find it. So I would say that a well established community time-wise like that would be the most ideal.

And to your point about acceptance from locals. If the locals are desperate enough for service or something to allow for a foreigner to provide it then it means that there is acceptance. Those services would most likely be connected to culture too and that might be the reason why it can’t be provided by the locals.

I just HATE it when some useless douche canoe that makes ZERO contribution to this site comes in and starts trash talking. Ignore list.

Why do you have to compare SA with AUS? Is it insecurity or what? Seems like you are only doing it to try and piss me off. It is not going to work because I am not a patriot like many of you guys seem to be. :lol:

All that I can say is that Australia from my observation is a place where foreigners in general feel welcome when you look at the demographics of Australia. In my opinion that does involve assimilation though, but I am not going to do that. I have experienced the expectation to assimilate here in Australia from a few people, but only from people of western culture. :bash:

I am planning to move to a country where more than 50% of the country are expats/ immigrants like the UAE etc when I am finished with my studies because this is really the only way in my opinion that I can reach my dream of living amongst true multiculturalism. :happy: :)
spent 4 years in oz, 7 in Dubai and back in SA and you my friend are living in some wieid multicultural bubble. It doesnt exist no matter how hard the western liberal press tried to sell us this utopia. Lived through the race riots in oz, the crack downs in the arab world (dubai part of that so is Bahrain), dubai crackdown not reported but many arrests and deportations. so much for multiculturislim in an expat world.
U must be living in a bubble if u think oz has little "western" resistasnce to multicultuiralism, remebr the gang rapes in Sydney , of course you dont, u must have been about 8, well its was all immigrants who target white aussie girls, and u wonder why Pauline Hanson, u heard of her?, and her gang whilst not getting the votes get much support

this is a boring thread hijacked by a kid with no real point of experience to speak from so no point debating with him.

Can we get back to the point of this title instead of some bullshit rambelings

spent 4 years in oz, 7 in Dubai and back in SA and you my friend are living in some wieid multicultural bubble. It doesnt exist no matter how hard the western liberal press tried to sell us this utopia. Lived through the race riots in oz, the crack downs in the arab world (dubai part of that so is Bahrain), dubai crackdown not reported but many arrests and deportations. so much for multiculturislim in an expat world.
U must be living in a bubble if u think oz has little "western" resistasnce to multicultuiralism, remebr the gang rapes in Sydney , of course you dont, u must have been about 8, well its was all immigrants who target white aussie girls, and u wonder why Pauline Hanson, u heard of her?, and her gang whilst not getting the votes get much support

Agree with everything you have said. AUS even has the Asylum seeker thing...

I said that Aus has mainly western resistance to multiculturalism.

I am talking about it in general though. The Middle East is changing and by the time that I would be able to move overseas it could be possible. I just want to point out that this is my dream; I am not as cynical as you might think.:lol:

this is a boring thread hijacked by a kid with no real point of experience to speak from so no point debating with him.

Can we get back to the point of this title instead of some bullshit rambelings

Fully agree...

After a few weeks back home, how are you finding it?... and of course... are you going to make your way up to watch a Sharks match or two? :)

I don't get where VCollaborator gets his information from, or what kind of people he spent time with on a daily basis, but to even hint at the possibility that Pretoria or ANY other South African city treats foreigners with hostility is absolutely ridiculous.

I live in Waterkloof myself, and one of the first things you notice when living in this suburb is the massive numbers of foreign people. Certainly no hostility from any of the SA citizens. One cannot drive down any of the roads around here without going past some or other consulate or embassy, or a house lived in by foreign employees who work at one of the consulates or embassies, and the people I see in my immediate area definitely don't look like they are treated with any hostility by the way they greet everyone and chat with random people when they walk down the road in the afternoons.

If you go out to virtually any club/bar/restaurant in the eastern parts of the city (where most of the foreigners are situated), you will see that everyone gets along perfectly well. There have been many times where I went out with friends, and ended up having a beer with a few American Marines, some German students, or just a few Australian girls who work at the consulate.

I just though I had to point out the above, as I actually find it quite offensive to paint my city as one which has negative views of foreigners. Once you start to move around in this city, it is virtually impossible to not bump into some or other diplomat or a foreign student who studies at UP on a daily basis. And I have NEVER seen any single foreigner being treated with anything less than respect. Certainly no less than any other person living in Pretoria.

I would love to know of specific instances or events which contradicts the above. I find it difficult to believe that you in fact experienced anything which points to hostility or non-tolerance of foreigners as a rule in SA, especially in the Pretoria Eastern Suburbs.

Thanks for that, I think almost all of us agree that this is a non-issue - foreigners are, if anything, treated with interest and respect. We all love to speak to people from other parts of the world.

Now, SA BOY, update please - what have you seen, done, noticed, enjoyed or not, in the last week of so?

I don't get where VCollaborator gets his information from, or what kind of people he spent time with on a daily basis, but to even hint at the possibility that Pretoria or ANY other South African city treats foreigners with hostility is absolutely ridiculous.

If you don't get treated like this then you don't actually realize that it exists. I used to be one of the people who use to think that I would never immigrate, but hey look where I have ended up.

I also used to be one of them patriotic Afrikaners who thought that discrimination not relating to race or gender did not exist but now that I have experienced it myself in Australia, I can think of many instances where I have seen discrimination whether it was intentional or not. I should state that I don't think most people realize it when they discriminate.

I am happy that I have changed though.:banana:

I live in Waterkloof myself, and one of the first things you notice when living in this suburb is the massive numbers of foreign people. Certainly no hostility from any of the SA citizens. One cannot drive down any of the roads around here without going past some or other consulate or embassy, or a house lived in by foreign employees who work at one of the consulates or embassies, and the people I see in my immediate area definitely don't look like they are treated with any hostility by the way they greet everyone and chat with random people when they walk down the road in the afternoons.

I find it hard to believe that people walk down the streets, when they have those massive walls/ fences around their consulates/ embassies. I lived more to the south of Waterkloof though near the Hoerskool, so I could be wrong.

I do agree though that the whole Brooklyn, Waterkloof, Hatfield, Arcadia, Mucleneuk and Groenkloof area does have a lot of embassies/ consulates.

If you go out to virtually any club/bar/restaurant in the eastern parts of the city (where most of the foreigners are situated), you will see that everyone gets along perfectly well. There have been many times where I went out with friends, and ended up having a beer with a few American Marines, some German students, or just a few Australian girls who work at the consulate.

WOW that's funny, only people from western backgrounds...

I just though I had to point out the above, as I actually find it quite offensive to paint my city as one which has negative views of foreigners. Once you start to move around in this city, it is virtually impossible to not bump into some or other diplomat or a foreign student who studies at UP on a daily basis. And I have NEVER seen any single foreigner being treated with anything less than respect. Certainly no less than any other person living in Pretoria.

I guess you must bump into a lot of people. :lol: On a more serious note, you probably meet a lot of foreigners since you are a lawyer.

I would love to know of specific instances or events which contradicts the above. I find it difficult to believe that you in fact experienced anything which points to hostility or non-tolerance of foreigners as a rule in SA, especially in the Pretoria Eastern Suburbs.

-People who insist to only speak their mother tongue.

-People who mock foreigners’ ways behind their backs - Jokes etc.

-People who are intolerant of people from other religions. Especially Christians...

-People who refuse to eat or at least try foreign food. Pretoria doesn't really have a foreign food fetish if you know what I mean; you hardly get any foreign restaurants...

-People who refuse to try and make friends with foreigners due to their poor English. They see them as an embarrassment...



Sorry if you feel that I label Pretoria as unwelcome. I miss the city very much and it is definitely a hidden gem.:cheers:

-People who refuse to eat or at least try foreign food. Pretoria doesn't really have a foreign food fetish if you know what I mean; you hardly get any foreign restaurants...

Can I just go WTF to this? You must have lived in a horribly sheltered little bubble when you were here. I know of at least 15 restuarants in PTA alone that cater for the "foreign" food type afficionado.

Alright VCollaborator, heres a brief summary of why everyone is being so hostile to you. This is NOT a diaspora forum where South Africans who live in the UK or Australia come to trash SA and make everyone think that South Africa is a horrible place and think how much of a victim South Africans are. This is a forum dedicated to SA's urban development, projects, and skyscrapers. Nothing more. So cut the melodrama crap about SA, because you are in the wrong forum for that. If you do that, we all will become much friendlier to you.

If you don't get treated like this then you don't actually realize that it exists. I used to be one of the people who use to think that I would never immigrate, but hey look where I have ended up.

I also used to be one of them patriotic Afrikaners who thought that discrimination not relating to race or gender did not exist but now that I have experienced it myself in Australia, I can think of many instances where I have seen discrimination whether it was intentional or not. I should state that I don't think most people realize it when they discriminate.

I am happy that I have changed though.

I do not view myself as a patriotic Afrikaner (whatever that might be). Furthermore, I certainly do not believe that discrimination does not exist, in whatever form. I however strongly disagreed with your argument that Pretoria as a city, and South Africa in general treats foreigners with hostility. Everyone in the world has seen discrimination, but the mere fact that it exists in some form or another does not make it a universally applicable phenomenon, and one can certainly not define a whole city/country by the actions of a VERY small few.

I find it hard to believe that people walk down the streets, when they have those massive walls/ fences around their consulates/ embassies. I lived more to the south of Waterkloof though near the Hoerskool, so I could be wrong.

I do agree though that the whole Brooklyn, Waterkloof, Hatfield, Arcadia, Mucleneuk and Groenkloof area does have a lot of embassies/ consulates.

Why is it so hard to believe that people walk down the streets? The mere fact that there are high walls around the houses in the area does not imply that everyone stays behind them all the time.

In Waterkloof, you will see people jogging, walking, cycling, walking their dogs, children walking to school, etc. It's definitely not a suburb where people hide behind their walls all day. This is also not an argument for you to attempt to refute, it is a statement of fact, based on actual observation in my daily life.

WOW that's funny, only people from western backgrounds...

What does that have to do with anything? You do realise that bars/pubs form mainly part of western culture, so I think it's understandable that most of the patrons will be western in some regard. That does not imply that there are nobody from the middle/eastern countries. Don't try and prove your argument in such an opportunistic fashion.

I guess you must bump into a lot of people. On a more serious note, you probably meet a lot of foreigners since you are a lawyer.

I assume you were attempting to make a joke.

I do not in fact meet a lot of foreigners as a result of my profession. It is simply a matter of them being part of the fabric of society in Pretoria. It is certainly not strange to be standing in line at the local Woolworths, with foreigners doing their shopping alongside the locals.

-People who insist to only speak their mother tongue.

-People who mock foreigners’ ways behind their backs - Jokes etc.

-People who are intolerant of people from other religions. Especially Christians...

-People who refuse to eat or at least try foreign food. Pretoria doesn't really have a foreign food fetish if you know what I mean; you hardly get any foreign restaurants...

-People who refuse to try and make friends with foreigners due to their poor English. They see them as an embarrassment...

None of what I just quoted are specific instances of events. You could have heard someone tell a story, which they heard from someone else, and it would carry the same weight.

What is so wrong in speaking your mother tongue if you feel uncomfortable in speaking another language? Some people cannot speak English at all, let alone a little. It is certainly frustrating when you have to communicate with such a person, but it does not mean that person is being treated with hostility.

Religious intolerance is something which I think is a lot more prevalent in Europe and the USA, definitely not here in Pretoria. Yes, there are certainly people from all religions who have problems with those from others, but I have never witnessed anyone discriminating or being hostile to another person because of a difference in religion. This is another opportunistic argument, and something which is definitely not a proven problem in Pretoria, or South Africa in general.

With regard to foreign food in Pretoria - Are you serious?? You seriously have no clue. Within about 5km from my house I can, off the top of my head, think of at least 5 authentically Indian, 4 Thai, 4 Chinese, 2 Greek, 4 Italian and 3 French restaurants. And with authentic, I mean they are run by actual foreigners. Furthermore, they certainly don't stand empty. On a Friday night, you would be hard pressed to find a spot in any of those restaurants without a reservation.

I honestly think you need to check your facts before continuing your argument. A lot of what you are saying sounds like the ideas of a teenager being fed a bunch of stories from people who ran away from this country. That is your opinion and your right, but it in no way makes any of what you say truthful or even remotely right.

You do not live here. You were what, 13 when you were last here? How much did you really experience? I certainly did not know everything or experience even a fraction of what I have now at that age. So, please stop trying to convince everyone that you know better, because you don't. I'm trying to be respectful and understanding, but stubbornness will not help you.

where to start ... so Ill start a new thread

I don't want to restart the preceding argument that ensued, but I'd like to thank you for the help! I've decided I'm going to focus on becoming an English teacher in France, as that is a job I've researched that is definitely needed especially considering my native expertise in English. A few years down the line once I get some experience, I could move to South Africa as a French teacher with excellent qualifications that I hope by then would award me a work permit.

Absolutely awesome decision Kifayat....

I think you're making a very good choice, and France is a lovely place. (granted not as lovely as SA... but it'll do :) )

Sounds like a good move, apologies for not being able to help more.

France is the second best country in the world - and one of the few countries that can match South Africa in natural splendours.

We just had the Bastille festival here in Franschoek (French Corner), a beautiful French Hugenout town in the wine country - one of the best festivals around!

FOR KIFAYAT:

Provinces recruiting teachers from abroad
RETHA GROBBELAAR | 26 July, 2011 00:29

http://www.timeslive.co.za/migration_catalog/ST/2011/01/29/743543_655712/RESIZED/Small/743543_655712

While the Department of Basic Education struggles to find South Africans who can teach maths, science and technology, the provinces are going for foreign teachers .

More than 5400 foreign teachers work in public schools. Most of them, 3796, are from Zimbabwe, according to May figures taken from the government employee database, Persal.

A total of 501 are from India, 500 from Ghana and 90 from Namibia.

Most of the foreign teachers teach maths, physical science and technology to pupils from Grade 7 to Grade 12 and work in Gauteng (1286), Eastern Cape (975) and Limpopo (934).

Teachers' unions said yesterday that the country is not producing sufficient teachers because school leavers shun the occupation because of the low pay.

SA Democratic Teachers' Union general secretary Mugwena Maluleke said that many graduate teachers leave the country to work overseas because the "profession in South Africa is not attractive".

National Professional Teachers' Organisation of SA president Esrah Ramasehla said: "We are not growing our own teachers locally, but we are depending on teachers from Zimbabwe and India in key subjects like maths and science."

About 10000 teachers leave the occupation each year, but little more than 6000 teachers graduate each year, the Basic Education Department said.

It is estimated that the schooling system needs about 12000 to 16000 new teachers each year, but the department claims there is no "crisis of classrooms without teachers" because temporary teachers are used to fill vacancies.

There is a dire need for teachers in the foundation phase, and for teaching maths, technology and science in higher grades, Basic Education spokesman Hope Mokgatlhe said yesterday.

"Foreign-qualified educators" were being employed as a temporary measure, while the department was working to increase the number of locally trained teachers, she said.

Mokgatlhe said the department had established the Funza Lushaka scheme, which offers bursaries to education students to counter shortages of skills such as those of maths and science teachers.

Thobekile Nyathi, 40, from Zimbabwe, was recruited to teach maths and accounting at Zenzeleni High School, outside Groblersdal, in Limpopo. She came to South Africa in 2007 and initially struggled with the pupils' ill-discipline.

Many foreign teachers are employed on a temporary basis, which Nyathi said she finds challenging because she cannot plan ahead.
Times Live (http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2011/07/26/provinces-recruiting-teachers-from-abroad)