Cape Town — South African economists and researchers may see Brazil as the economy South Africa should look to emulate and learn from, but a report released by Brazil's National Confederation of Industry (CNI) reveals that South Africa is actually more competitive than the South American nation.

The report, released last week, also ranks South Africa second out of 14 countries, most of them emerging economies, when it comes to the sophistication of its banking system.

According to "Competition Brazil: A comparison with selected countries" ("Competividade Brasil 2010: Compara±ao com Pa¡ses Selecionados"), South Africa is slightly more competitive than Brazil with more affordable and available capital, better infrastructure, less taxes and a slightly better macro economic climate than the South American country.

However, Brazil has cheaper and more available manual labour, a better micro economic climate and is more innovative than South Africa.

The report compares 14 countries on a range of measures such as availability and cost of manual labour, availability and cost of finance, macro and micro economic climate, education and innovation and technology.

These countries are: Australia, Canada, Russia, Mexico, China, Poland, Spain, India, Korea, Brazil, South Africa, Colombia, Chile and Argentina.

The report makes use of figures from existing global studies such as the World Bank's Doing Business report, the Institute for Management Development's Competitiveness Yearbook and the World Economic Forum's (WEF) Competitiveness Report.

Out of the 14 countries South Africa has the second most sophisticated financial market, just behind Canada and ahead of Australia and Brazil.

South Africa has the second lowest effective business tax rate (business taxes as a percentage of company profits), behind Chile, with businesses in Brazil, Colombia and Argentina being taxed the heaviest.

South Africa is ranked fourth out of 14 countries on the ease of accessing capital, making it easier to access a loan here than in India, Colombia, Brazil, China, Korea, Russia, but more difficult than Australia and Chile.

When it comes to the cost of capital South Africa is ranked fourth out of 13 countries, with financial institutions that are more affordable for local inhabitants than those in Russia, China and Korea, but more expensive than Canada, India, Chile and Australia.

Ranked sixth out of the 14 countries, South Africa's transport infrastructure is better than that of China, India, Mexico, Brazil, Poland but behind that of Korea and Chile.

South Africa is ranked seventh out of the 14 countries with foreign direct investment (FDI) as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2008.

South Africa's FDI of over three percent of GDP puts it ahead of Poland, Canada and Brazil, but behind Chile (10 percent) and Australia and Colombia and Russia (over four percent).

However, South Africa fares badly when it comes to the cost and availability of labour.

South Africa is ranked last among 11 of the countries when it comes to the cost and availability of its labour.

In the availability of manual labour South Africa is ranked last out of the 14 countries and is also the only country of the 14 whose labour force shrunk in 2008 (by over three percent compared to

India where the workforce grew by almost three percent).

But when it comes to the cost of manual labour South Africa is ranked fifth out of 11 countries, with its labour priced at about the same level as South Korea, more affordable than Poland, Russia and Mexico, but more expensive than Brazil, India and China.

The report also reveals that South African factory workers (ranked seven out of 11 countries) are better paid than those in Brazil, China, India, Poland and Mexico - but less than those in Korea.

However, when it comes to productivity South African workers are ranked eighth out of 13 countries, more productive than Russia, Colombia, Brazil, China and India, but less productive than Korea, Chile and Mexico.

But South Africa ranks poorly when it comes to education: with only India fairing worse when it comes to the percentage of matriculants in higher education in (2007).

In Brazil 30 percent of matriculants graduate to tertiary institutions, over 50 percent in Chile and over 90 percent in Korea - compared to just 15 percent in South Africa.

This is despite the report ranking South Africa fourth for the percentage of GDP it spends on education (in 2007 this was over four percent) behind Canada, Mexico and Australia.

The report ranks South Africa 11th out of 14 countries when it comes to the country's use of technology and innovation - putting the African country behind Korea as well as the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) countries, but ahead of Colombia, Mexico and Argentina.

According to the report it has the seventh most mobile telephones per 100 inhabitants, ahead of Chile, Brazil, Canada, China, India, but behind Argentina, Russia and Poland.

Then what's w/ the slow economic growth? 3%-4%, that's child's play. :ohno:

Then what's w/ the slow economic growth? 3%-4%, that's child's play. :ohno:

SA should be growing at 5% minimum because of its high poverty and inequality.
Ideally, 6-7%.

No doubt, Brazil is highly taxed, so bureaucratic, highest interest rates in the world along with inferior infrastructure South Africa does have a competitive edge. But then you have to ask yourself why Brazil has 6% unemployment, has created 2 million jobs this year alone while South Africa has over 20% unemployment and has had meagre growth for some 3-4 years compared to Brazil who will growth 8% this year? Incompetent governance?

It's actually almost a miracle Brazil is doing so well given the structural hurdles that impede growth and investment.

No doubt, Brazil is highly taxed, so bureaucratic, highest interest rates in the world along with inferior infrastructure South Africa does have a competitive edge. But then you have to ask yourself why Brazil has 6% unemployment, has created 2 million jobs this year alone while South Africa has over 20% unemployment and has had meagre growth for some 3-4 years compared to Brazil who will growth 8% this year? Incompetent governance?

It's actually almost a miracle Brazil is doing so well given the structural hurdles that impede growth and investment.

As oppose to the competent apartheid government?:lol:

As oppose to the competent apartheid government?:lol:

No, but the apartheid government at least in it's final decade was ruled a pariah by much of the world, it also shut off over 80% of it's population. That just spells disaster for any country. South Africa today doesn't have an international embargo nor an economic system that legally shuts 80% of the population from economic prosperity and after 16 years of ANC rule you have 25% unemployment? Increased income inequality?

Sorry, but this government is very incompetent, but South Africans have themselves to blame just as much as the politicians. By blindly voting for one party and giving them super majority those in power have become complacent. That's why for any democracy it's healthy to have a switch of party control at least every 8 years. So voter stupidity also plays a role.

No, but the apartheid government at least in it's final decade was ruled a pariah by much of the world, it also shut off over 80% of it's population. That just spells disaster for any country. South Africa today doesn't have an international embargo nor an economic system that legally shuts 80% of the population from economic prosperity and after 16 years of ANC rule you have 25% unemployment? Increased income inequality?

Sorry, but this government is very incompetent, but South Africans have themselves to blame just as much as the politicians. By blindly voting for one party and giving them super majority those in power have become complacent. That's why for any democracy it's healthy to have a switch of party control at least every 8 years. So voter stupidity also plays a role.

ANC must go.

ANC must go.

+1

We need DA

+1

We need DA

Not necessarily, what I would love to see is the ANC break up- and I mean a proper break up, not like COPE. The DA arent going to have power for a LONG time in reality but Im fed up with the ANC and their militant unions. When the apartheid govt eventually fell people thought SA was going to boom, but it didnt happen unfortunately. If SA isnt careful I can see it getting surpassed by several other African nations, in different fields, over the next 20-30 years.

Not necessarily, what I would love to see is the ANC break up- and I mean a proper break up, not like COPE. The DA arent going to have power for a LONG time in reality but Im fed up with the ANC and their militant unions. When the apartheid govt eventually fell people thought SA was going to boom, but it didnt happen unfortunately. If SA isnt careful I can see it getting surpassed by several other African nations, in different fields, over the next 20-30 years.

ITA

DA seems to be the most competent party, but I doubt they'll win the elections, even with their gains in 2009, they only garnered 2% of the black vote. Best way for the ANC to lose power is for a break up, but COPE has been a failure in providing an alternative to the ANC.

South Africa's opposition Dec 9th 2010 | JOHANNESBURG | from PRINT EDITION


FOR the first time since taking power 16 years ago, the African National Congress (ANC) is feeling rattled. Not that it worries about losing control of the national government. But the pesky little Democratic Alliance (DA) is yapping at its heels in the run-up to local polls due next year. The DA was formed ten years ago in an improbable merger of Helen Suzman’s anti-apartheid Democratic Party (DP) with the former ruling National Party, which had been renamed the New National Party.

The centre-right DA is the only party that has gained ground in every general election since apartheid ended. The DP, its predecessor, won just 1.7% of the vote and seven parliamentary seats in 1994. Last year the DA got nearly 17%, up from 12% in 2004, giving it 67 seats in the 400-seat parliament and confirming it as the country’s official opposition. Its closest rival, with just 7% of the vote and 30 seats, was the new Congress of the People (COPE), an ANC breakaway that had been expected to do better. But the mainstream ANC romped home just short of a two-thirds majority, leaving competitors to wonder if the ruling party could ever be ousted.

With dogged patience, Helen Zille, the DA’s leader (pictured above), hopes to defeat the ANC “ward by ward, city by city”, setting an example of integrity, good governance and efficient services. Her party started with Cape Town, wresting it from the ANC in 2006 and installing Ms Zille, a former journalist and anti-apartheid activist, as mayor. Last year the DA took control of the Western Cape, its first provincial conquest. Since then, it has been steadily clocking up local by-election successes across the country and is confident of further gains in next year’s municipal elections.

Widely regarded (and derided) as a “white” party, the DA has been striving to expand its support beyond the 9% of the population that is white—with some success. Its victory in the Western Cape was largely due to a surge in votes from coloureds (people of mixed race), who make up around 60% of the province’s population. With some minor privileges under apartheid, many coloureds voted for the National Party in 1994 for fear of being swamped by a hegemonic black majority.

About a third of the DA’s MPs are non-white. But the party still struggles to attract the black vote, three-quarters of the total electorate. Despite increasing criticism of the ANC government’s failings, most black people refuse to break their bond with the former liberation party. Barely 2% of black people voted for the DA last year.

Ms Zille says she is ready to make way for a good black leader. But there is no evidence he or she would attract more votes. The blonde, hard-working, Xhosa-speaking Ms Zille is popular across all groups in the Western Cape. Her courage in standing up to black paternalistic authority is particularly admired among black women. Under increasingly virulent and sexist attacks from ANC members—she has been accused of being a “racist”, a “wild whore” and a “cockroach”—she gives as good as she gets.
http://www.economist.com/node/17681047

Not necessarily, what I would love to see is the ANC break up- and I mean a proper break up, not like COPE. The DA arent going to have power for a LONG time in reality but Im fed up with the ANC and their militant unions. When the apartheid govt eventually fell people thought SA was going to boom, but it didnt happen unfortunately. If SA isnt careful I can see it getting surpassed by several other African nations, in different fields, over the next 20-30 years.

Like which ones? South Africa so far is the only African country who is spending billions in research and development( only African country that has nano tech), on education and while that's no where nearly enough, I don't see any other African country spending money on research and development. Maybe countries like Ghana and Kenya could give them a run for their money. Angola is doing a lot of rebuilding but still nothing in research and development. I personally don't know much, but all evidence points out that nobody on the african continent will be able to catch up with the South Africans. If you look at countries building power stations and producing power south africa is by far the largest.south africa produces 45% of all power produced on the entire continent of Africa. And they are about to add another 10000 megawat by 2015.

Eskom, established in 1923, generates 95 percent of South Africa's electricity and 45 percent of Africa's electricity.

* In January 2008, the utility said it was unable to supply power to the country's mines sparking a major energy crisis.

* Eskom plans to invest 343 billion rand ($34.03 billion) in new power plants over five years. It plans to spend 1.3 trillion rand by 2025 to double generating capacity to 80,000 MW.
1.3 trillion rand is about 190 Billion US dollars based on todays exchange.
Do you know any country planning on building 80000 MW capacity by 2025?
Link to the source below:http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLN9543720090123

DA seems to be the most competent party, but I doubt they'll win the elections, even with their gains in 2009, they only garnered 2% of the black vote. Best way for the ANC to lose power is for a break up, but COPE has been a failure in providing an alternative to the ANC.

South Africa's opposition Dec 9th 2010 | JOHANNESBURG | from PRINT EDITION


FOR the first time since taking power 16 years ago, the African National Congress (ANC) is feeling rattled. Not that it worries about losing control of the national government. But the pesky little Democratic Alliance (DA) is yapping at its heels in the run-up to local polls due next year. The DA was formed ten years ago in an improbable merger of Helen Suzman’s anti-apartheid Democratic Party (DP) with the former ruling National Party, which had been renamed the New National Party.

The centre-right DA is the only party that has gained ground in every general election since apartheid ended. The DP, its predecessor, won just 1.7% of the vote and seven parliamentary seats in 1994. Last year the DA got nearly 17%, up from 12% in 2004, giving it 67 seats in the 400-seat parliament and confirming it as the country’s official opposition. Its closest rival, with just 7% of the vote and 30 seats, was the new Congress of the People (COPE), an ANC breakaway that had been expected to do better. But the mainstream ANC romped home just short of a two-thirds majority, leaving competitors to wonder if the ruling party could ever be ousted.

With dogged patience, Helen Zille, the DA’s leader (pictured above), hopes to defeat the ANC “ward by ward, city by city”, setting an example of integrity, good governance and efficient services. Her party started with Cape Town, wresting it from the ANC in 2006 and installing Ms Zille, a former journalist and anti-apartheid activist, as mayor. Last year the DA took control of the Western Cape, its first provincial conquest. Since then, it has been steadily clocking up local by-election successes across the country and is confident of further gains in next year’s municipal elections.

Widely regarded (and derided) as a “white” party, the DA has been striving to expand its support beyond the 9% of the population that is white—with some success. Its victory in the Western Cape was largely due to a surge in votes from coloureds (people of mixed race), who make up around 60% of the province’s population. With some minor privileges under apartheid, many coloureds voted for the National Party in 1994 for fear of being swamped by a hegemonic black majority.

About a third of the DA’s MPs are non-white. But the party still struggles to attract the black vote, three-quarters of the total electorate. Despite increasing criticism of the ANC government’s failings, most black people refuse to break their bond with the former liberation party. Barely 2% of black people voted for the DA last year.

Ms Zille says she is ready to make way for a good black leader. But there is no evidence he or she would attract more votes. The blonde, hard-working, Xhosa-speaking Ms Zille is popular across all groups in the Western Cape. Her courage in standing up to black paternalistic authority is particularly admired among black women. Under increasingly virulent and sexist attacks from ANC members—she has been accused of being a “racist”, a “wild whore” and a “cockroach”—she gives as good as she gets.
http://www.economist.com/node/17681047

What is so competent about them? Anybody can be competent when their governing a wealthy population. If the DA wants to proof competency they can move to one of the poorest provinces or states and turn it in to a wealthy state with full employment. That would shut me up right a way. Other then that I'll keep questioning their sincerity and motive. Oh by the way those colored, I'm not impressed with them.

What is so competent about them? Anybody can be competent when their governing a wealthy population. If the DA wants to proof competency they can move to one of the poorest provinces or states and turn it in to a wealthy state with full employment. That would shut me up right a way. Other then that I'll keep questioning their sincerity and motive. Oh by the way those colored, I'm not impressed with them.

Errr... They only recently took over control of the Western Cape and they've managed it considerable better than the ANC did, which is why their only going to consolidate their power in the next elections. What exactly do you question about their "sincerity and motive"? Their politicians who want power, just like the ANC, only difference is they seem more effective in positions of power and have less corruption allegations against them compared to the ruling government. Why aren't you impressed by "those colored"? Clearly they've enjoyed the leadership of the DA over other parties. Why aren't you unimpressed with South Africa's blacks who blindly vote for a party simply based on the past?

People need to stop voting purely along racial lines and focus on the issues. The ANC has become complacent because their guaranteed the vast majority of votes, no incentive to actually get to work.

Much of ANC management is Horrible. Period. They are busy enriching themselves. They are as good as Communists.

Much of ANC management is Horrible. Period. They are busy enriching themselves. They are as good as Communists.

The ANC is divided between radical communists in the form of trade unions and people like Malema and corporatist stooges who only want to enrich themselves as well as a few of their cronies. Mbeki fits the latter group.

Errr... They only recently took over control of the Western Cape and they've managed it considerable better than the ANC did, which is why their only going to consolidate their power in the next elections. What exactly do you question about their "sincerity and motive"? Their politicians who want power, just like the ANC, only difference is they seem more effective in positions of power and have less corruption allegations against them compared to the ruling government. Why aren't you impressed by "those colored"? Clearly they've enjoyed the leadership of the DA over other parties. Why aren't you unimpressed with South Africa's blacks who blindly vote for a party simply based on the past?

You appear to be so blinded by hate and bigotry that you don't even notice you're contradicting yourself.

Kojo Laing, a Ghanaian poet and writer traveled to Capetown, South Africa.
He blogged:
"The truth about Capetown lies just beneath the surface, as it were: the more contrast you see between the small shanty rooms to buildings of the townships and then the solid post-victorian near arrogance of the middle-class suburbs the more tears you shed as you move around the city."
Link to the source:http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/12/15/african.pilgrimages/index.html

The DA could start by turning those shanty towns (rooms) in to middle-class suburbs too, couldn't they. Let us see some good government. I think the majority of the South African population is a lot smarter then you would like to give them credit for.

The ANC is divided between radical communists in the form of trade unions and people like Malema and corporatist stooges who only want to enrich themselves as well as a few of their cronies. Mbeki fits the latter group.

It appears that you are a very bitter person. Your goal appears to be to demonize the South African government and you have in so many words/ways insulted the black population of South Africa. After all the humiliation and tortured that they have suffered. Do you not have any shame? Do you not have any desency in you?

The DA could start by turning those shanty towns (rooms) in to middle-class suburbs too, couldn't they. Let us see some good government. I think the majority of the South African population is a lot smarter then you would like to give them credit for.

You earn to be a middle class status. Not handed to you.

But , One thing that shocks me all together is the sorts of slums that still exists in this country.

How hard is it to make those people in Slums build decent , small housings ? Paid by the Feds and Province governments, but make the people build them. where everyone has water, electricity and decent sanitation. 16 years later. Not like they don't have the money to do that. But lack of political will.

SS Africa is the same on certain mentalities.

The ANC is divided between radical communists in the form of trade unions and people like Malema and corporatist stooges who only want to enrich themselves as well as a few of their cronies. Mbeki fits the latter group.

They're the same shyt , different smells. ANC all together has failed.

^^ I love how all you armchair analysts seeem to know what is wrong with the SA and what it needs.

ANC must go.

This seems to be the refrain, but I can promise you that ANC ain't going nowhere, under ANC's leadership SA's economy has succesfully navigated its first recession in 17 yrs.

Reasons SA's economy is inderperforming


Microeconomic Reform is needed, i.e. better labour regulation, less centralized bargaining
Infrastructure spending needs to increase, currently it's at 22$ of GDP, it needs to go higher than 25% of GDP, pray do tell what the stats from other African countries are
Govt is spending ZAR800 billion over next 5 years on infrastructure, these include, Medupi and Kusile mega power plant (4800 MW each), massive highway building (N2 Winelands Highway & Wildcoast Highway, each will cost more than a billion
Massive Hospital Recapitalisation, billions are being spent on building mega-hospitals, e.g Mitchells Plain, Dr. Mkhari Hospital & Limpopo Academic Hospital
R&D Spending is going through the roof, govt wants to take spending on R&D from 1% of GDP to 2% of GDP over next decade


Lastly the economy is recovering quickly, interest rates are at a 30 year low & inflation is at 3.6%, therefore disposable income has shot up in the aftermath of the recession, in fact according to Merrill Lynch latest Emerging Market 20111 Forecast, in 2010 the economy's size is $377 billion (nominal) and GDP per capita is $7444 (nominal), due to the Rand strengthening 25% against the dollar, $ reserves are at $43 billion and growing...
So to all the haters, the gap betweeen SA and your chump economies is actually growing not decreasing, and its all due to ANC's exemplary economic policies. Suck on that

^^ On top of that we have 4 million tons of surplus corn that is depressing food prices. SA is currently one of the few countries where there's food deflation, we already have half of next year's corn requirements in silos and we haven't even started planting for next year's season.

We're literally sitting on a mountain of corn or mielies as we call it here.

Problem with you haterz is that you only look at the headline numbers and you don't drill down. What is the inflation rate in all these countries that are supposedly passing us by? What is the inflation rate in Nigeria and Angola, probably double digits. What do you think is going to happen to interest rates?

Economic growth and development is not a sprint, it's a marathon. Catch up!!

Nostra, you need a serious chill pill.

^^lol, I'm chilling like a villian. I just prefer informed debate to pie-in-the-sky faux debate, SA bashing disguised as rational debate doesn't cut it. Sorry if I came across aggressive though, didn't mean to...

It appears that you are a very bitter person. Your goal appears to be to demonize the South African government and you have in so many words/ways insulted the black population of South Africa. After all the humiliation and tortured that they have suffered. Do you not have any shame? Do you not have any desency in you?

If by insulted you mean stating the obvious fact that so many South Africans vote blindly for the ANC simply based on the past and not their record as governing fine, consider that an insult and I will keep insulting when people vote with their heart and not their heads.

^^ I love how all you armchair analysts seeem to know what is wrong with the SA and what it needs.



This seems to be the refrain, but I can promise you that ANC ain't going nowhere, under ANC's leadership SA's economy has succesfully navigated its first recession in 17 yrs.

Reasons SA's economy is inderperforming


Microeconomic Reform is needed, i.e. better labour regulation, less centralized bargaining
Infrastructure spending needs to increase, currently it's at 22$ of GDP, it needs to go higher than 25% of GDP, pray do tell what the stats from other African countries are
Govt is spending ZAR800 billion over next 5 years on infrastructure, these include, Medupi and Kusile mega power plant (4800 MW each), massive highway building (N2 Winelands Highway & Wildcoast Highway, each will cost more than a billion
Massive Hospital Recapitalisation, billions are being spent on building mega-hospitals, e.g Mitchells Plain, Dr. Mkhari Hospital & Limpopo Academic Hospital
R&D Spending is going through the roof, govt wants to take spending on R&D from 1% of GDP to 2% of GDP over next decade


Lastly the economy is recovering quickly, interest rates are at a 30 year low & inflation is at 3.6%, therefore disposable income has shot up in the aftermath of the recession, in fact according to Merrill Lynch latest Emerging Market 20111 Forecast, in 2010 the economy's size is $377 billion (nominal) and GDP per capita is $7444 (nominal), due to the Rand strengthening 25% against the dollar, $ reserves are at $43 billion and growing...
So to all the haters, the gap betweeen SA and your chump economies is actually growing not decreasing, and its all due to ANC's exemplary economic policies. Suck on that

How can you defend a government that presides over an economy which it has done very little to reduce unemployment from 25%, one of the highest rates in the world? What are the ANC numbers in inequality reduction???

South Africa's economy recovering quickly? the IMF cut growth prospects last week for just over 3% this year! Inflation is low, and their is food deflation because people don't seem that confident to go out and spend, the low interest rates is probably the same reason interest rates are 0% in the U.S, to incentivize loans to pick up a cool economy.

The Rand's strengthening seems to be weakening your economy since it's hurting exports that helps explain why South Africa is posed for 3% growth this year and 3.5% in 2011. Hardly stellar after a contraction in 2009.

It's not just heart vs head. I'm sure if the black population had an alternative to the ANC they'd vote for them, which is why the breakup of the ANC would be good.
However expecting that the sins of apartheid (and yes, of white South Africans, it has to be said) to be forgiven and forgotten within 20 years and get them back in power is expecting a superhuman, even God-like, level of charity, forgiveness and trust never before seen in the history of mankind. It's impossible to do that right now, maybe in 20 years.

It's not just heart vs head. I'm sure if the black population had an alternative to the ANC they'd vote for them, which is why the breakup of the ANC would be good.
However expecting that the sins of apartheid (and yes, of white South Africans, it has to be said) to be forgiven and forgotten within 20 years and get them back in power is expecting a superhuman, even God-like, level of charity, forgiveness and trust never before seen in the history of mankind. It's impossible to do that right now, maybe in 20 years.

COPE provided an alternative in 2009, granted they were a very new party and they did horribly bad. The only reason why the ANC was just 1% point short of a 2/3's majority was because of the rise of the DA.

And it is a head vs. heart issue, some whites may have seriously messed up South Africa but if people used logic (i.e their head) they make the distinction between those whites in power during apartheid and white liberals that make up the DA and leaders like Zille which actually fought against apartheid.

Easier said than done of course, which is why the DA won't take power the ANC will be the largest party for at least another decade. Only way they can lose power is if a large number of other parties team up and reduce the ANC's voting share to under 50%. But that won't happen by 2014.

COPE provided an alternative in 2009, granted they were a very new party and they did horribly bad. The only reason why the ANC was just 1% point short of a 2/3's majority was because of the rise of the DA.

And it is a head vs. heart issue, some whites may have seriously messed up South Africa but if people used logic (i.e their head) they make the distinction between those whites in power during apartheid and white liberals that make up the DA and leaders like Zille which actually fought against apartheid.

Easier said than done of course, which is why the DA won't take power the ANC will be the largest party for at least another decade. Only way they can lose power is if a large number of other parties team up and reduce the ANC's voting share to under 50%. But that won't happen by 2014.

Alex, dont be so naive.

Not necessarily, what I would love to see is the ANC break up- and I mean a proper break up, not like COPE. The DA arent going to have power for a LONG time in reality but Im fed up with the ANC and their militant unions. When the apartheid govt eventually fell people thought SA was going to boom, but it didnt happen unfortunately. If SA isnt careful I can see it getting surpassed by several other African nations, in different fields, over the next 20-30 years.

Like which ones? South Africa so far is the only African country who is spending billions in research and development( only African country that has nano tech), on education and while that's no where nearly enough, I don't see any other African country spending money on research and development. Maybe countries like Ghana and Kenya could give them a run for their money. Angola is doing a lot of rebuilding but still nothing in research and development. I personally don't know much, but all evidence points out that nobody on the african continent will be able to catch up with the South Africans. If you look at countries building power stations and producing power south africa is by far the largest.south africa produces 45% of all power produced on the entire continent of Africa. And they are about to add another 10000 megawat by 2015.

Eskom, established in 1923, generates 95 percent of South Africa's electricity and 45 percent of Africa's electricity.

* In January 2008, the utility said it was unable to supply power to the country's mines sparking a major energy crisis.

* Eskom plans to invest 343 billion rand ($34.03 billion) in new power plants over five years. It plans to spend 1.3 trillion rand by 2025 to double generating capacity to 80,000 MW.
1.3 trillion rand is about 190 Billion US dollars based on todays exchange.
Do you know any country planning on building 80000 MW capacity by 2025?
Link to the source below:http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLN9543720090123

In terms of living standards, I can bet you SA will be overtaken by several other African nations- im betting Ghana, Kenya and Angola amongst others.

I think in 2 to 3 decades, Nigerian banks could have matched SA banks and will then eventually over take them.

I see nations like Ethiopia overtaken them in agriculture. Kenya, in IT. Nigeria is manufacturing (as long as it sorts out its power problems).


I could give lots of examples.

They could overtake them if South africa stays still in those 2-3 decades otherwise no! :lol:

I think South Africa will hit 7% growth from 2015-2020. Plus it's not even all over SA that is slow. The big three provinces Gauteng, Western Cape and Kwazulu-Natal are still growing very fast, the shyt provinces like the Eastern Cape and North West province are the ones who are making south african growth slow.

They could overtake them if South africa stays still in those 2-3 decades otherwise no! :lol:

I think South Africa will hit 7% growth from 2015-2020. Plus it's not even all over SA that is slow. The big three provinces Gauteng, Western Cape and Kwazulu-Natal are still growing very fast, the shyt provinces like the Eastern Cape and North West province are the ones who are making south african growth slow.

Some african countries might ( some will) overtake SA in certain fields ( just as Popa puts them).

But SA will still lead in many fields for a while.

How can you defend a government that presides over an economy which it has done very little to reduce unemployment from 25%, one of the highest rates in the world? What are the ANC numbers in inequality reduction???

South Africa's economy recovering quickly? the IMF cut growth prospects last week for just over 3% this year! Inflation is low, and their is food deflation because people don't seem that confident to go out and spend, the low interest rates is probably the same reason interest rates are 0% in the U.S, to incentivize loans to pick up a cool economy.

The Rand's strengthening seems to be weakening your economy since it's hurting exports that helps explain why South Africa is posed for 3% growth this year and 3.5% in 2011. Hardly stellar after a contraction in 2009.

Why don't you take your hating/bigotry somewhere else.

[QUOTE=Popa;69059307]

In terms of living standards, I can bet you SA will be overtaken by several other African nations- im betting Ghana, Kenya and Angola amongst others.

I think in 2 to 3 decades, Nigerian banks could have matched SA banks and will then eventually over take them.

I see nations like Ethiopia overtaken them in agriculture. Kenya, in IT. Nigeria is manufacturing (as long as it sorts out its power problems).


I could give lots of examples.

Do you think the South Africans are just going to sit back ?
Please explain to me how would they go about that? The South Africans currently are spending 1% of their budget on R&D which is about to increase to 2%. The kenyans are doing a lot of good things, but I just don't see it. Ghana has a unieq opportunity but they will have to invest from zero to billions in research and development.

^^lol, I'm chilling like a villian. I just prefer informed debate to pie-in-the-sky faux debate, SA bashing disguised as rational debate doesn't cut it. Sorry if I came across aggressive though, didn't mean to...

+1

If by insulted you mean stating the obvious fact that so many South Africans vote blindly for the ANC simply based on the past and not their record as governing fine, consider that an insult and I will keep insulting when people vote with their heart and not their heads.

Typical ramblings of a racist.

The ANC record of governing is a million times better then the NP apartheid government that they replaced. The longest economic expansion in South African history under ANC leadership. Take that to the bank. Largest increase of poor South Africans becomming middle class and wealthy. check.

You can ramble all you want, but there is nothing you can do about. The ANC is here to stay. You however ..............ahhhhhh who cares.

COPE provided an alternative in 2009, granted they were a very new party and they did horribly bad. The only reason why the ANC was just 1% point short of a 2/3's majority was because of the rise of the DA.

And it is a head vs. heart issue, some whites may have seriously messed up South Africa but if people used logic (i.e their head) they make the distinction between those whites in power during apartheid and white liberals that make up the DA and leaders like Zille which actually fought against apartheid.

Easier said than done of course, which is why the DA won't take power the ANC will be the largest party for at least another decade. Only way they can lose power is if a large number of other parties team up and reduce the ANC's voting share to under 50%. But that won't happen by 2014.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I have never met a South African white liberal. Could you please introduce me to one? How do they look like? I'm begging/pleading here.

Alex, dont be so naive.

He is not being naive. I think he's just trying to rewrite history.

^^ On top of that we have 4 million tons of surplus corn that is depressing food prices. SA is currently one of the few countries where there's food deflation, we already have half of next year's corn requirements in silos and we haven't even started planting for next year's season.

We're literally sitting on a mountain of corn or mielies as we call it here.

Problem with you haterz is that you only look at the headline numbers and you don't drill down. What is the inflation rate in all these countries that are supposedly passing us by? What is the inflation rate in Nigeria and Angola, probably double digits. What do you think is going to happen to interest rates?

Economic growth and development is not a sprint, it's a marathon. Catch up!!

Exactly.

They could overtake them if South africa stays still in those 2-3 decades otherwise no! :lol:

I think South Africa will hit 7% growth from 2015-2020. Plus it's not even all over SA that is slow. The big three provinces Gauteng, Western Cape and Kwazulu-Natal are still growing very fast, the shyt provinces like the Eastern Cape and North West province are the ones who are making south african growth slow.

Anything is possible. Innovation and competitiveness rankings drastically change. You can be growing, but the rivals could be growing even faster. Still I agree with Butembo they will stay ahead in a many fields in the future, but who knows what will happen. You never know what the future holds. All I have to say though is buckle up because it's going to be a great to see.
---
I hope SA hits that 7% growth rate soon too. Hopefully 5% by 2012-2013 and 7% growth by 2015 to 2030. :D

Errr... They only recently took over control of the Western Cape and they've managed it considerable better than the ANC did, which is why their only going to consolidate their power in the next elections. What exactly do you question about their "sincerity and motive"? Their politicians who want power, just like the ANC, only difference is they seem more effective in positions of power and have less corruption allegations against them compared to the ruling government. Why aren't you impressed by "those colored"? Clearly they've enjoyed the leadership of the DA over other parties. Why aren't you unimpressed with South Africa's blacks who blindly vote for a party simply based on the past?

People need to stop voting purely along racial lines and focus on the issues. The ANC has become complacent because their guaranteed the vast majority of votes, no incentive to actually get to work.

The ANC isn't all bad. Many improvements have been made in housing the poor especially in Gauteng Province. The DA should learn from the ANC in this department.

Anything is possible. Innovation and competitiveness rankings drastically change. You can be growing, but the rivals could be growing even faster. Still I agree with Butembo they will stay ahead in a many fields in the future, but who knows what will happen. You never know what the future holds. All I have to say though is buckle up because it's going to be a great to see.
---
I hope SA hits that 7% growth rate soon too. Hopefully 5% by 2012-2013 and 7% growth by 2015 to 2030. :D

7% growth would do wonders for SA. 7% growth from 2015-2030 would see it developed by 2030.

Alex, dont be so naive.

Can you please elaborate?

Voting for a party simply based on the past liberation movement and not on policies is indeed irrational and not voting for the other party not based on what they stand for but the color of most of it's leadership is also irrational. You can justify or explain it saying only 20 years ago whites presided over a police state that subjugated the majority, that's all true but using that as a basis for not voting for DA is indeed stupid.

It's mostly down to education, I bet their is a gap in support for the ANC based on income/education. At least that seems the case for most Black South Africans here in skyscrapercity.

I've used this Che quote multiple times but it's true, especially in this case
"Un Pueblo que no sabe leer ni escribir...es un pueblo fácil de engañar."

He is not being naive. I think he's just trying to rewrite history.

You actually haven't said anything of substance all you say is that I'm a bigot, wrong and now trying to "rewrite history". So instead of cheap labels say something somewhat informative or at least back up your statements.

The ANC isn't all bad. Many improvements have been made in housing the poor especially in Gauteng Province. The DA should learn from the ANC in this department.

The ANC is better than 90% of most parties on the continent, but I put South Africa to a different standard than it's neighbors.

Personally I think that Zuma is infinitely better than that joke Mbeki.

Can you please elaborate?

Voting for a party simply based on the past liberation movement and not on policies is indeed irrational and not voting for the other party not based on what they stand for but the color of most of it's leadership is also irrational. You can justify or explain it saying only 20 years ago whites presided over a police state that subjugated the majority, that's all true but using that as a basis for not voting for DA is indeed stupid.

It's mostly down to education, I bet their is a gap in support for the ANC based on income/education. At least that seems the case for most Black South Africans here in skyscrapercity.

I've used this Che quote multiple times but it's true, especially in this case
"Un Pueblo que no sabe leer ni escribir...es un pueblo fácil de engañar."

Since where human beings ever so cold-blooded rational?

Say for example, you were bullied all through school by someone. Years later you have a business and you are choosing between 2 business partners. One is a random guy who you think could increase your profits by 20%, the other guy, is the bully who tormented you all through high school- but.....if you go into business with him, your profits will increase 200%. How many people do you think, in reality, will choose the latter choice? Even if it meant, for example, you would have enough money to take early retirement, buy a luxury house, and would never have to worry about money again.

So if the poor black masses were better educated they would start voting DA? Really? So those educated black SAs are voting for DA?

Again, dont be so naive.

If the black masses were educated, they would have another Black party .

I think its more than just an education issue , i have read some of the DA's manifesto and i dont think they provide a healthy alternative to the ANC yet. I think they have issues with their message on issues such as BEE and wealth redistribution which makes their electoral platform tricky because they have to balance out appealing to white population, coloureds in the Western Cape and attracting the majority population. I see nothing from them at the moment that would appeal to the majority, they seem to believe you can win an election without pandering to the masses, something the ANC or any political party knows. I remember some controversy that surrounded the cabinet in the Western Cape that had very few black people and i am sure their top political positions are not occupied by blacks which feeds into the stereotype of being a minority party. Their liberal credibility whilst strong for some leaders like Zille may not extend to every one of their leaders.

The ANC economic management is mixed IMO, they inherited a broke or near broke state that had at some point in 1985 instituted a standstill on debt payments. They had to reform an economy that was heavily regulated and balance out social issues which isnt easy to achieve.They had to deal with skepticism from the business sector and saw some companies like Anglo American and Old Mutual shift their primary base from SA to London which was indicative of the lack of trust between the two parties.Even formerly state owned firms like SASOL which listed BEE as a potential risk in their filing on the NYSE got into trouble with Mbeki. In the long run it will be the ability of any political party to ensure or promise that they can close the gap between rich and poor that will win the day.

If the black masses were educated, they would have another Black party .

+1

I think its more than just an education issue , i have read some of the DA's manifesto and i dont think they provide a healthy alternative to the ANC yet. I think they have issues with their message on issues such as BEE and wealth redistribution which makes their electoral platform tricky because they have to balance out appealing to white population, coloureds in the Western Cape and attracting the majority population. I see nothing from them at the moment that would appeal to the majority, they seem to believe you can win an election without pandering to the masses, something the ANC or any political party knows. I remember some controversy that surrounded the cabinet in the Western Cape that had very few black people and i am sure their top political positions are not occupied by blacks which feeds into the stereotype of being a minority party. Their liberal credibility whilst strong for some leaders like Zille may not extend to every one of their leaders.
The ANC economic management is mixed IMO, they inherited a broke or near broke state that had at some point in 1985 instituted a standstill on debt payments. They had to reform an economy that was heavily regulated and balance out social issues which isnt easy to achieve.They had to deal with skepticism from the business sector and saw some companies like Anglo American and Old Mutual shift their primary base from SA to London which was indicative of the lack of trust between the two parties.Even formerly state owned firms like SASOL which listed BEE as a potential risk in their filing on the NYSE got into trouble with Mbeki. In the long run it will be the ability of any political party to ensure or promise that they can close the gap between rich and poor that will win the day.


+10

Case closed,I think BUHERA nailed it.Couldn't have come with a better and more comprehensive analysis.

Since where human beings ever so cold-blooded rational?

Say for example, you were bullied all through school by someone. Years later you have a business and you are choosing between 2 business partners. One is a random guy who you think could increase your profits by 20%, the other guy, is the bully who tormented you all through high school- but.....if you go into business with him, your profits will increase 200%. How many people do you think, in reality, will choose the latter choice? Even if it meant, for example, you would have enough money to take early retirement, buy a luxury house, and would never have to worry about money again.

So if the poor black masses were better educated they would start voting DA? Really? So those educated black SAs are voting for DA?

Again, dont be so naive.

Your analogy would only make sense if Zille was part of the apartheid establishment, she fought against it!! If I didn't go into business with a black person because I was bullied all my life by blacks at school would be dumb and irrational. I guarantee you'd call me up on such stupidity.

But your right, people tend to think with their emotions not their heads.

People, please inform yourselves before commentating about Helen Zille and the DA, she/it is the only real hope for SA politics.
Was voted best mayor of the world 2008.

The Western Cape was the best run province in every single category of governance, audit which was conducted by the AG? (which by the way is all ANC run).

Please read!!

The Auditor-General has rated the DA-run Western Cape the province with the best financial administration in South Africa for the 2009/10 financial year. Every provincial department and all public entities below them received unqualified audits, a feat unmatched by any other province. It also marked a significant improvement on previous provincial audits, achieved when the ANC was in control of the province. The results constitute further evidence that where the DA governs, it delivers a better run administration than the ANC. And, because that administration is well managed, service delivery is of a higher standard.

All wards won by the DA have all been retained with overwhelming majorities,
some of these wards are inhabited only by black SAs.
Of course their are problems, but nothing compared to what weve seen from our buddies from the ANC...
The DA is by far the most efficient and well run paty in SA!

If the black masses were educated, they would have another Black party .

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

I think its more than just an education issue , i have read some of the DA's manifesto and i dont think they provide a healthy alternative to the ANC yet. I think they have issues with their message on issues such as BEE and wealth redistribution which makes their electoral platform tricky because they have to balance out appealing to white population, coloureds in the Western Cape and attracting the majority population. I see nothing from them at the moment that would appeal to the majority, they seem to believe you can win an election without pandering to the masses, something the ANC or any political party knows. I remember some controversy that surrounded the cabinet in the Western Cape that had very few black people and i am sure their top political positions are not occupied by blacks which feeds into the stereotype of being a minority party. Their liberal credibility whilst strong for some leaders like Zille may not extend to every one of their leaders.

The ANC economic management is mixed IMO, they inherited a broke or near broke state that had at some point in 1985 instituted a standstill on debt payments. They had to reform an economy that was heavily regulated and balance out social issues which isnt easy to achieve.They had to deal with skepticism from the business sector and saw some companies like Anglo American and Old Mutual shift their primary base from SA to London which was indicative of the lack of trust between the two parties.Even formerly state owned firms like SASOL which listed BEE as a potential risk in their filing on the NYSE got into trouble with Mbeki. In the long run it will be the ability of any political party to ensure or promise that they can close the gap between rich and poor that will win the day.

Everything you've mentioned in your first paragraph though is really nothing based on policy. I mean honestly who cares how many cabinet members are black, you the moment you start trying to be politically correct instead of picking the best people for the job that's ineffective governing. You have to see how they've governed Cape Town and the Western Cape and then compare it to the other provinces.

They've had an overwhelming mandate to carry out their policies, they inherited most of South Africa's problems and no one expects problems to be solved. But after 16 years can you really say they've done a good job? They've made a few friends wealthy, they pander to their radical trade unions, haven't done much to combat inequality and unemployment hasn't seen much of a reduction because the much needed reform hasn't been taken.

Like I said, giving 65 percent of the vote when theirs 25 percent unemployment and 40 percent underemployment is indeed irrational.

Didn't Zille win best mayor of the world award a few years back???

Typical ramblings of a racist.

The ANC record of governing is a million times better then the NP apartheid government that they replaced. The longest economic expansion in South African history under ANC leadership. Take that to the bank. Largest increase of poor South Africans becomming middle class and wealthy. check.

You can ramble all you want, but there is nothing you can do about. The ANC is here to stay. You however ..............ahhhhhh who cares.

The NP government minus its racist policies would have completely BLOWN the ANC out of the water.

And many a black South African has agreed with me upon saying that.

Though why I'm even bothering debating anything with someone who has absolutely no clue on what the local political climate is like is beyond me.

The ANC isn't all bad. Many improvements have been made in housing the poor especially in Gauteng Province. The DA should learn from the ANC in this department.

Upon coming into power in the Western Cape, the DA built more houses for the poor than the ANC did.

Very misinformed of you.

Your analogy would only make sense if Zille was part of the apartheid establishment, she fought against it!! If I didn't go into business with a black person because I was bullied all my life by blacks at school would be dumb and irrational. I guarantee you'd call me up on such stupidity.

But your right, people tend to think with their emotions not their heads.

Though she fought against it, she is still part of that party. THAT is what people look at. I would rather see a significant non-corrupt break away from the ANC rather than the DP in power.

Though she fought against it, she is still part of that party. THAT is what people look at. I would rather see a significant non-corrupt break away from the ANC rather than the DP in power.

What? Was she part of the NP???

So between the ANC and DA, you choose the ANC??

The NP government minus its racist policies would have completely BLOWN the ANC out of the water.

And many a black South African has agreed with me upon saying that.

Though why I'm even bothering debating anything with someone who has absolutely no clue on what the local political climate is like is beyond me.

The western cape without the rest of South Africa would be considered a wealthy developed country.
The NP is the racist policies, that was the only reason for its existence.When that wasn't the case anymore it simply dissolved didn't it? The NP would be successfull economically because it had cheap black african labor at almost no cost and blacks had no rights.Black unemployment where not counted as unemployment, black crimes were not considered crime, matter of fact blacks were not even considered part of South Africa( homelands) NP government policy was basically a socialist policy for the white minority, all whites were guaranteed jobs, either in the government or in the private sectors, hence the NP government turned over a bloted government to the ANC. So yes during apartheid the NP had 100% employment and very low to no crimes.

You may be right on discussing local political climate with me.
However I know enough about South Africa to make a fairly informed statement.
Mijn moedertaal is Nederlands, en ik ben well op de hoogte van de rotzooi dat jullie daar maken.

You actually haven't said anything of substance all you say is that I'm a bigot, wrong and now trying to "rewrite history". So instead of cheap labels say something somewhat informative or at least back up your statements.

I usually don't say anything of substance to bigots, simply because bigots aren't receptive of anything substantive.

If the black masses were educated, they would have another Black party .

The irony is, it's the ANC that's educating the black masses. It's not an easy job. If I'm not mistaken the ANC has created a black middleclass of 4 millions, a lot more then the NP apartheid government has ever created. And most if not all are voting ANC.

The NP government minus its racist policies would have completely BLOWN the ANC out of the water.

And many a black South African has agreed with me upon saying that.
Though why I'm even bothering debating anything with someone who has absolutely no clue on what the local political climate is like is beyond me.

I'm not trying to be drawn into this long debate, but if what you say is true, then why haven't more black south africans (as in majority, or at least half) voted DA? I mean I might not be south african but to me Helen Zille appears to be the type of leader that could do plenty of good for SA. So if you agree with this, and if many black south africans say a racist-free NP would have blown ANC out of the water, why won't they try DA? If you get what I mean.

Ive read so much rubbish here.
@popa1980 Since when did Helen Zille belong to the NP, oh for crying out loud, what nonsense! please google her name and educate yourself, maybe youll learn something! (This women fought for the rights and freedom of ALL NON-WHITES IN SA)
@butembo If the black masses were educated, they would vote for the party that serves their best interests for them and their country, not according too racial lines, thats why Africas how it is, cant get passed the racial barrier! (people vote ANC because its seen as the liberation party, the ones that gave them freedom, nothing else)
@jules3c if you new anything about SA you would know that in the education department, SA (public education) is ranked as one of the worst education providers, with the irony being that its one of the countries in the world that invests the most!
The private sector plays a mammoth role in SA economy, which is by far still in the hands of white SAs, and foreign investors.
This is the reality in SA, public which is in the hands of the ANC government is in disarray with corruption, incompetence, no accountability, I could go on forever, but dont go by me, go too SAs news websites, everyday you see corruption scandals.
People, if you want too have this debate, please inform yourselves, and then comment, dont go with the flow of the rest.

The irony is, it's the ANC that's educating the black masses. It's not an easy job. If I'm not mistaken the ANC has created a black middleclass of 4 millions, a lot more then the NP apartheid government has ever created. And most if not all are voting ANC.

I assume that is true, but I would say regardless of which party is leading SA there is still more work that appears to be in need of being completed. 4 million black middle class south africans out of like 38 million black south africans total isn't much to brag about.
Ive read so much rubbish here.
@popa1980 Since when did Helen Zille belong to the NP, oh for crying out loud, what nonsense! please google her name and educate yourself, maybe youll learn something! (This women fought for the rights and freedom of ALL NON-WHITES IN SA)
@butembo If the black masses were educated, they would vote for the party that serves their best interests for them and their country, not according too racial lines, thats why Africas how it is, cant get passed the racial barrier! (people vote ANC because its seen as the liberation party, the ones that gave them freedom, nothing else)
@jules3c if you new anything about SA you would know that in the education department, SA (public education) is ranked as one of the worst education providers, with the irony being that its one of the countries in the world that invests the most!
The private sector plays a mammoth role in SA economy, which is by far still in the hands of white SAs, and foreign investors.
This is the reality in SA, public which is in the hands of the ANC government is in disarray with corruption, incompetence, no accountability, I could go on forever, but dont go by me, go too SAs news websites, everyday you see corruption scandals.
People, if you want too have this debate, please inform yourselves, and then comment, dont go with the flow of the rest.

That is exactly what he said. If black south africans were better educated they would vote for a party w/ their best interest in mind, and more than likely that party would be another black party, I assume.

I'm not trying to be drawn into this long debate, but if what you say is true, then why haven't more black south africans (as in majority, or at least half) voted DA? I mean I might not be south african but to me Helen Zille appears to be the type of leader that could do plenty of good for SA. So if you agree with this, and if many black south africans say a racist-free NP would have blown ANC out of the water, why won't they try DA? If you get what I mean.

èđđeůx, the problem with SA, is that its a country obsessed with race! Everythings black this, white that. The day that country gets passed that issue its a great place too be.
The DA has been gaining ground against the ANC slowly...
The good news is that they actually TRY too provide a better service too all citizens, which is giving them votes during election time.
If you read the AG report on their governance youll get a whole new idea about the party.

That is exactly what he said. If black south africans were better educated they would vote for a party w/ their best interest in mind, and more than likely that party would be another black party, I assume.

No, he spoke about a BLACK PARTY, no other, please read again.

èđđeůx, the problem with SA, is that its a country obsessed with race! Everythings black this, white that. The day that country gets passed that issue its a great place too be.
The DA has been gaining ground against the ANC slowly...
The good news is that they actually TRY too provide a better service too all citizens, which is giving them votes during election time.
If you read the AG report on their governance youll get a whole new idea about the party.

and the US is race obsessed too to an extent. Compared to the 46 years since segregation was abolished here, apartheid-free SA is still pretty fresh. Am I using this as an excuse? No I'm not, but I am trying to say that it takes time to get past huge bumps in a nation's history such as this. So your wish may be a while off.
No, he spoke about a BLACK PARTY, no other, please read again.

Yes, educated black south africans could just as well vote for a black party that is better than ANC. I see nothing wrong with his statement.

Ive read so much rubbish here.
@popa1980 Since when did Helen Zille belong to the NP, oh for crying out loud, what nonsense! please google her name and educate yourself, maybe youll learn something! (This women fought for the rights and freedom of ALL NON-WHITES IN SA)
@butembo If the black masses were educated, they would vote for the party that serves their best interests for them and their country, not according too racial lines, thats why Africas how it is, cant get passed the racial barrier! (people vote ANC because its seen as the liberation party, the ones that gave them freedom, nothing else)@jules3c if you new anything about SA you would know that in the education department, SA (public education) is ranked as one of the worst education providers, with the irony being that its one of the countries in the world that invests the most!The private sector plays a mammoth role in SA economy, which is by far still in the hands of white SAs, and foreign investors.
This is the reality in SA, public which is in the hands of the ANC government is in disarray with corruption, incompetence, no accountability, I could go on forever, but dont go by me, go too SAs news websites, everyday you see corruption scandals.
People, if you want too have this debate, please inform yourselves, and then comment, dont go with the flow of the rest.

You seam to be saying that the only way a black South African could be considered educated is if he choses to elect a white leader. Please enlighten me.

So the government is spending the money on education for the masses, that's more then what could be said of previous government. Yes, I have not heart one person in all my life said that the ANC government is 100% good. But at least they are trying. And one could make the argument that the ANC government is very conducive to private business, hence the 3%-4% economic growth. However private businesse have refused to hire more workers,which ensured a jobless economic growth.Instead laying of workers and when possible moving their head quarters abroad. Is that the governments fault all the time? The Government more than most other government has subsidised the car manufacturers and turned it in to wolrd class manufacturing industrie. But yet the economy is a jobless growing economy. Under the ANC government, South Africa has had the longest uninterupted economic expansion on record in the history of South Africa (1997-2008).Can you please make any suggestions what the government should do other then whining and demanding that the only thing good for South Africa is for the Black majority to elect a white minority party as their leaders.
I say goodluck with that.

The irony is, it's the ANC that's educating the black masses. It's not an easy job.

I didn't say its an easy work. I simply said .If there were an already educated black masses, there would be another Powerful Black party which would be the alternative or the real challenger to ANC. As it always is the democracies. DA will remain white for long time. and the little opposition that splitted from ANC is ineffective.

An educated voter makes a better decision. An educated voter doesn't just rely on 'oh, he's this so i should vote for him'. An educated voter focuses on the common good for everyone in the nation as a whole.

If one party is doing good in an area of south africa and another is doing good in another area, then so be it. Let their works and integrity prove their worth. Good luck to SA.

I didn't say its an easy work. I simply said .If there were an already educated black masses, there would be another Powerful Black party which would be the alternative or the real challenger to ANC. As it always is the democracies. DA will remain white for long time. and the little opposition that splitted from ANC is ineffective.

There are millions of black south africans that are already educated, and this year the black south african middle class has surpassed the white middle class in size in south africa. Yes that's right the black middle class in south Africa is now larger then the White middle class.However they aren't defecting from the ANC and vote for another party, because they are the testamonies of the ANC leadership and government policies.

There are millions of black south africans that are already educated, and this year the black south african middle class has surpassed the white middle class in size in south africa. Yes that's right the black middle class in south Africa is now larger then the White middle class.However they aren't defecting from the ANC and vote for another party, because they are the testamonies of the ANC leadership and government policies.

Ok.
And they are still voting for a black party. That was my point.

I assume that is true, but I would say regardless of which party is leading SA there is still more work that appears to be in need of being completed. 4 million black middle class south africans out of like 38 million black south africans total isn't much to brag about.


That is exactly what he said. If black south africans were better educated they would vote for a party w/ their best interest in mind, and more than likely that party would be another black party, I assume.

Did anybody suggested that there was nothing left to be done? In anycase the work is far from done. Matter of fact governing is never finished. The unemployment is unacceptably high. There is no bold vision and leadership in the current government, however there is steady leadership and they seam to be almost obsessed with stability. Hopefully some body will take the bull( unemployment) by the horn and do some creative things with it. They need some visionary leadership in there. They need a John F kennedy in South Africa.

Ok.
And they are still voting for a black party. That was my point.

Sorry you have lost me. What's wrong with them voting for the ANC? They have become educated and middle class because of the ANC government. Why should they abandon the ANC?

@butembo If the black masses were educated, they would vote for the party that serves their best interests for them and their country, not according too racial lines, thats why Africas how it is, cant get passed the racial barrier!
Yes of course they will vote for the party that serves their interests and the country's.

But the reality is that no other party that's in their interests of the newly educated and middle class blacks, is there?

(people vote ANC because its seen as the liberation party, the ones that gave them freedom, nothing else)

If i'm not mistaken, there is a growing black middle class (thats still voting ANC or another black party).

Sorry you have lost me. What's wrong with them voting for the ANC? They have become educated and middle class because of the ANC government. Why should they abandon the ANC?

If you read back before my post, you'll understand. Someone said if there were an educated black masses, they wouldn't vote for ANC.

Me response was, "If there educated black masses, they would vote for another black party".

I think we both know why they wouldn't/wont vote for a White party. At least no in near future or not yet.

Everything you've mentioned in your first paragraph though is really nothing based on policy. I mean honestly who cares how many cabinet members are black, you the moment you start trying to be politically correct instead of picking the best people for the job that's ineffective governing. You have to see how they've governed Cape Town and the Western Cape and then compare it to the other provinces.

They've had an overwhelming mandate to carry out their policies, they inherited most of South Africa's problems and no one expects problems to be solved. But after 16 years can you really say they've done a good job? They've made a few friends wealthy, they pander to their radical trade unions, haven't done much to combat inequality and unemployment hasn't seen much of a reduction because the much needed reform hasn't been taken.

Like I said, giving 65 percent of the vote when theirs 25 percent unemployment and 40 percent underemployment is indeed irrational.

Well the optics mean a lot, i remember Bush being commended for his diverse cabinet, even Obama's election he had to manage that image.Are you denying that image and perception have a lot to do with viability of a political candidate? BEE is a substantive policy issue and the ANC positioned it as a policy that would allow black people to be on a level playing field. Notwithstanding its execution it probably is seen by some people as their ticket out of poverty whether right or wrong. I would like to think everyone is appointed on tehir merits but these are political position we are talking about, they are generally not done on merit alone and everyone knows that , i would say its actually PC if not dishonest to claim politicians appoint people on merit alone.

I am also not completely sold on the trade union part as an explanation for inefficiency or unemployment problems. I think labour inflexibility has been somewhat oversold as the main problem with regards to job creation when the country has such a backlog of people who need to be educated. I think what would happen if they would relax the laws completely would be race to the bottom in the labour market without an attendant increase in overall employment. The same businesses still created enough jobs in rigid labour markets with influx controls,colour bars and all that regulation.

I think in 16 years they have done a good enough job given the fact that it wasnt only unemployment and inequality they had to deal with but also reforming the economy. In the absence of an alternative i think they do deserve maybe 50-60% of the vote even though there is an assumption by many people that lack of education is the only explanatory factor for their win.

What? Was she part of the NP???

Wether she was part or not, question is, can she manage to attract black voters under DA umbrela?

Yes of course they will vote for the party that serves their interests and the country's.

But the reality is that no other party that's in their interests of the newly educated and middle class blacks, is there?


If i'm not mistaken, there is a growing black middle class (thats still voting ANC or another black party).

The reason why this newly middle class is voting for the ANC is because it is their believe that voting for the ANC is in their interest. Wrong or right.

èđđeůx, the problem with SA, is that its a country obsessed with race! Everythings black this, white that. The day that country gets passed that issue its a great place too be.
The DA has been gaining ground against the ANC slowly...
The good news is that they actually TRY too provide a better service too all citizens, which is giving them votes during election time.
If you read the AG report on their governance youll get a whole new idea about the party.

I cant think why they are obsessed with race, maybe it has to do with a little something beginning with 'a'???

We have said it before, there is NO chance that the DA will get into power within the foreseeable future. The more realistic choice will be a major chasm forming in the ANC causing it to break up. You are being patronising by saying that its lack of education that causes people to vote ANC, and its nonsense anyway since even educated blacks vote for ANC.

popa1980, Apartheid was abolished 16 years ago, stop blaming everything on the past.
Non-white SAs only have freedom today because their was a referendum where the majority of white SAs voted yes too their liberation. I think thats more than enough proof of their intentions. And dont come with communism propaganda that they were forced because its BS. The white pop. decided the countries future through the power of vote.
For your knowledge, in 94 many white SAs voted for the ANC and Mandelas vision of a Rainbow Nation, truth be told, past 16 years, nothing turned out the way it was supposed to be...
All ANC cadres are stinking rich, tenders are given too them directly without public consultation, and God knows what else goes on.
You guys are so biased, that you continue too forget that it wasnt only black SAs who suffered under Apartheid, but coloreds and Asians too.

Guys do yourselves a favor, if the ANC is such a great party and great future provider, look up at the official stats.
2nd highest murder rate in the world, highest rape rate in the world. Country where their are millions infected with AIDS and Tuberculoses because you had a chief (Thabo Mbeki) who denied Anti-retroviral drugs, where the minister of health told the pop. that AIDS could be cured with beetroot, where the actual president in power said in a court of law that their was no problem having sex with a person with AIDS, as long as you took a shower after. Makes you think, hey?
If you so informed, do you see the growing protests of lack of service delivery throughout the country?
I could go on forever, its pointless because none in this thread no whats going on in SA except for those who actually live there.

popa1980, Apartheid was abolished 16 years ago, stop blaming everything on the past.
Non-white SAs only have freedom today because their was a referendum where the majority of white SAs voted yes too their liberation. I think thats more than enough proof of their intentions. And dont come with communism propaganda that they were forced because its BS. The white pop. decided the countries future through the power of vote.
For your knowledge, in 94 many white SAs voted for the ANC and Mandelas vision of a Rainbow Nation, truth be told, past 16 years, nothing turned out the way it was supposed to be...
All ANC cadres are stinking rich, tenders are given too them directly without public consultation, and God knows what else goes on.
You guys are so biased, that you continue too forget that it wasnt only black SAs who suffered under Apartheid, but coloreds and Asians too.

LOL. 16 years is NOTHING. America still suffers from race obsession due to slavery and official segregation which finished decades ago. You really think people will forget such oppression in 16 years? Look, im from Scotland and I can tell you that people in Scotland are vehemently anti-English because of things England did to Scottish people hundreds of years ago. And the English never treated the Scots anywhere near as bad as white SAs treated black people. So the Welsh, Irish and Scots still havent really forgiven England for its military aggression centuries ago. Just to put things into perspective.

What does the fact that "coloreds" and Asians suffered too have to do with this? FYI, legally, in effect, coloreds and Asians were 2nd class citizens, blacks were 3rd class citizens. The whites were the ones enjoying 1st class status.

LOL. 16 years is NOTHING. America still suffers from race obsession due to slavery and official segregation which finished decades ago. You really think people will forget such oppression in 16 years? Look, im from Scotland and I can tell you that people in Scotland are vehemently anti-English because of things England did to Scottish people hundreds of years ago. And the English never treated the Scots anywhere near as bad as white SAs treated black people. So the Welsh, Irish and Scots still havent really forgiven England for its military aggression centuries ago. Just to put things into perspective.

What does the fact that "coloreds" and Asians suffered too have to do with this? FYI, legally, in effect, coloreds and Asians were 2nd class citizens, blacks were 3rd class citizens. The whites were the ones enjoying 1st class status.

+1, that is what I was trying to tell him.

LOL. 16 years is NOTHING. America still suffers from race obsession due to slavery and official segregation which finished decades ago. You really think people will forget such oppression in 16 years? Look, im from Scotland and I can tell you that people in Scotland are vehemently anti-English because of things England did to Scottish people hundreds of years ago. And the English never treated the Scots anywhere near as bad as white SAs treated black people. So the Welsh, Irish and Scots still havent really forgiven England for its military aggression centuries ago. Just to put things into perspective.

What does the fact that "coloreds" and Asians suffered too have to do with this? FYI, legally, in effect, coloreds and Asians were 2nd class citizens, blacks were 3rd class citizens. The whites were the ones enjoying 1st class status.

The land problem hasn't been solved yet and it won't go away.

Guys do yourselves a favor, if the ANC is such a great party and great future provider, look up at the official stats.
2nd highest murder rate in the world, highest rape rate in the world. Country where their are millions infected with AIDS and Tuberculoses because you had a chief (Thabo Mbeki) who denied Anti-retroviral drugs, where the minister of health told the pop. that AIDS could be cured with beetroot, where the actual president in power said in a court of law that their was no problem having sex with a person with AIDS, as long as you took a shower after. Makes you think, hey?
If you so informed, do you see the growing protests of lack of service delivery throughout the country?
I could go on forever, its pointless because none in this thread no whats going on in SA except for those who actually live there.

Under the apartheid it used to have the highest murder rate in the wolrd, but it was not reported that's all.
The aids case. You want to talk about the aids epidemic. Well lets talk. Lets go back when the ANC government offer to produce aids drugs in South Africa. The big drug makers like pfizer bristol were demanding a 1000s of dollars a year per paitient a year. The South African government tried to give what was called compulsary licenses to drugmakers in South Africa so the drugs would be cheaper. The local drug makers revolted and refused to take part in producing those drugs. The Indian drug maker Cipro offered a generic version of the aids drug in and the western drug makers in cooperation with their ilk in south africa lobbied their western government to block Cipro from sending generic drugs at a cheaper price to south africa. Western governments, the UK and the US treatened sanctions. That is when the South African government went the way, of these drugmakers are not going to use South Africa as a cash cow to milk it for whatever it's worth. It wasn't untill heavy campaigning against these giant drug makers and embarrassing the Clinton administration in washington, that some of the drugmakers relented. By then the South African government had gone on a self destructive path by not providing any help to the aids patience. So in my opinion the western drug makers who were trying to turn South Africa into a cash cow were just as guilty as the South African government. You ofcourse, blindsided by your hate of the ANC you won't take that in to consideration.
I think statements curing aids with beet root,lemon juice and what have you, were only made out of spite.

Oh about service delivery. There was no service delivery for the majority of the population during the NP apartheid era.
so be thankfull you have some service delivery now.:lol:

Oh yes we do know what's going on in South Africa. You know why? Because when white americans go on vacation in South Africa you tell them what you want, what you think and those white americans come back from their vacation and tell the blacks here in the USA exactly what you told them.:lol: I wont tell you what some of those Americans say about you or think about you. Let me give you a hint, it is not flattering. Words like Dinosaur, caveman, backwards comes to mind.

jules3c your comment is of the most ignorant that Ive read here, and when you dont have facts, resort too name calling, typical.
First, where was SA under Apartheid the murder capital of the world? I want links, facts, prove your statement.
Secondly, governments are elected too provide basic services too their fellow citizens, and in this case, they failed, no matter what obstacles. Its called one simple thing, deniability.
Third, dont you know that service delivery doesnt affect the neighborhoods where middle too upper class live. Only the poor suffer, dont you get it!
Fourth, I dont live in SA.
Fifth, your childish little rant that Americans say this and that proves just what kind of person you are.
As Ive said before, this is no contest between the NP and the ANC, its about delivering the goods the most efficient and best way too their citizens.
Oh, dont waste your time answering back, I dont want too read shit!:okay:

jules3c your comment is of the most ignorant that Ive read here, and when you dont have facts, resort too name calling, typical.
First, where was SA under Apartheid the murder capital of the world? I want links, facts, prove your statement.
Secondly, governments are elected too provide basic services too their fellow citizens, and in this case, they failed, no matter what obstacles. Its called one simple thing, deniability.
Third, dont you know that service delivery doesnt affect the neighborhoods where middle too upper class live. Only the poor suffer, dont you get it!
Fourth, I dont live in SA.
Fifth, your childish little rant that Americans say this and that proves just what kind of person you are.
As Ive said before, this is no contest between the NP and the ANC, its about delivering the goods the most efficient and best way too their citizens.
Oh, dont waste your time answering back, I dont want too read shit!:okay:

Gosh, those Americans were right. Your ignorance is breath taking.
During the aprtheid era the poor received no service. Their was an official state sanctioned violence on the blacks 24 hours a day. South Africa was the worst human rights violator.South Africa was a pariah state. Their was UN sanction against South Africa. There were violence on all the blacks of South Africa. Do you need more reminding.There was no press freedom for the blacks. The violence visited upon the black majority was of unspeakable terms.Your Afrikaner police were shooting unarmed black school children who were in school uniform exercising their basic human rights.Do you want/need links, facts and proofs? Does the UN ring a bell.
Try there for a change or maybe you should learn your real history unlike the rewritten(fantasy) history you learn in your little afrikaner school. How dare you talk about violence. Violence was not the exception but rather the norm for the black majority under your Neo Nazie afrikaner dominated NP apartheid regiem. The poor blacks were woken up in the middle of the night by the afrikaner police, beaten up in front of their children, taken in to police custody never to be seen again. Want evidence? Try truth and reconciliation commission. does that ring a bell?duh. You had a criminal NP afrikaner enterprise terrorising the black majority and you want to talk about crime. So you want proof that there was any crime during the criminal NP afrikaner government?:hilarious :lol: Why don't you ask those criminals who were in charge of that despotic NP afrikaner government?

jules3c your comment is of the most ignorant that Ive read here, and when you dont have facts, resort too name calling, typical.
First, where was SA under Apartheid the murder capital of the world? I want links, facts, prove your statement.
Secondly, governments are elected too provide basic services too their fellow citizens, and in this case, they failed, no matter what obstacles. Its called one simple thing, deniability.
Third, dont you know that service delivery doesnt affect the neighborhoods where middle too upper class live. Only the poor suffer, dont you get it!
Fourth, I dont live in SA.
Fifth, your childish little rant that Americans say this and that proves just what kind of person you are.
As Ive said before, this is no contest between the NP and the ANC, its about delivering the goods the most efficient and best way too their citizens.
Oh, dont waste your time answering back, I dont want too read shit!:okay:

Im guessing your family origins are Mozambique, Angola?

I usually don't say anything of substance to bigots, simply because bigots aren't receptive of anything substantive.

Your an idiot who says things without backing them up. I especially liked your claim that crime was worse under apartheid, to further your argument that under the ANC they went from the most dangerous to the second most dangerous country lol.

Well the optics mean a lot, i remember Bush being commended for his diverse cabinet, even Obama's election he had to manage that image.Are you denying that image and perception have a lot to do with viability of a political candidate? BEE is a substantive policy issue and the ANC positioned it as a policy that would allow black people to be on a level playing field. Notwithstanding its execution it probably is seen by some people as their ticket out of poverty whether right or wrong. I would like to think everyone is appointed on tehir merits but these are political position we are talking about, they are generally not done on merit alone and everyone knows that , i would say its actually PC if not dishonest to claim politicians appoint people on merit alone.

I am also not completely sold on the trade union part as an explanation for inefficiency or unemployment problems. I think labour inflexibility has been somewhat oversold as the main problem with regards to job creation when
country has such a backlog of people who need to be educated. I think what would happen if they would relax the laws completely would be race to the bottom in the labour market without an attendant increase in overall employment. The same businesses still created enough jobs in rigid labour markets with influx controls,colour bars and all that regulation.

I think in 16 years they have done a good enough job given the fact that it wasnt only unemployment and inequality they had to deal with but also reforming the economy. In the absence of an alternative i think they do deserve maybe 50-60% of the vote even though there is an assumption by many people that lack of education is the only explanatory factor for their win.

Of course many of those people selected are on political grounds, but it does nothing on the ground in terms of substance. How well did Bush's diverse cabinet end up doing???

How can you say they've done a good job, BEE has only helped a few well connected people, poverty is still ridiculously high, inequality hasn't changed and it even increased in the first 11 years of ANC rule. You talk about reforming the economy, why has South Africa been plagued by one of the highest unemployment rates all this time?? Why is growth so meagre? Given it'd stage of development, it's recession last year South Africa is poised not to grow more than 3.5% for the coming years.

Of course many of those people selected are on political grounds, but it does nothing on the ground in terms of substance. How well did Bush's diverse cabinet end up doing???

How can you say they've done a good job, BEE has only helped a few well connected people, poverty is still ridiculously high, inequality hasn't changed and it even increased in the first 11 years of ANC rule. You talk about reforming the economy, why has South Africa been plagued by one of the highest unemployment rates all this time?? Why is growth so meagre? Given it'd stage of development, it's recession last year South Africa is poised not to grow more than 3.5% for the coming years.

You brought up competence as the sole factor for appointment to political positions and i challenged it. The Bush cabinet's performance or lack thereof does not change the fundamental idea that political positions are sometimes used as a reward or bargaining chip. BEE is not limited to share ownership schemes like the ones used by Ramaphosa and co and also involves employment equity which affects more people than the ownership issues. I think the first group of students who went to school post apartheid only gfraduated recently. It seems you are assuming they had an equally educated majority population that was simply waiting to move into the middle class within the 11 years after democracy. There are lots of people who were undereducated or did not have requisite skill to participate fully in the economy within the first few years and probably a lost generation who would have to go back to school or learn some trade in order to enjoy those same benefits.

You brought up competence as the sole factor for appointment to political positions and i challenged it. The Bush cabinet's performance or lack thereof does not change the fundamental idea that political positions are sometimes used as a reward or bargaining chip. BEE is not limited to share ownership schemes like the ones used by Ramaphosa and co and also involves employment equity which affects more people than the ownership issues. I think the first group of students who went to school post apartheid only gfraduated recently. It seems you are assuming they had an equally educated majority population that was simply waiting to move into the middle class within the 11 years after democracy. There are lots of people who were undereducated or did not have requisite skill to participate fully in the economy within the first few years and probably a lost generation who would have to go back to school or learn some trade in order to enjoy those same benefits.

No one expected people to magically join the middle class, but you haven't explained how South Africa had greater income inequality under the ANC than apartheid, that is a shocking statistic. You haven't explained how shocking unemployment when its structural. They've had 16 years of rule with little opposition. In that time so much could have been done.

Don't even get me started on education and those incompetent teachers. South Africa scores worse than any middle income country.

Your an idiot who says things without backing them up. I especially liked your claim that crime was worse under apartheid, to further your argument that under the ANC they went from the most dangerous to the second most dangerous country lol.

Listen here bigot, I don't need any backing when the history books, the UN and every human rights institution are full of backing. Understandebly you don't consider atrocities committed by your neonazi bretheren against the poor blacks as crimes. Gues what they're crimes against humanity on grand scale.
Stop whining about a little pitty crime you have in South Africa and I'm not interested in your Neonazi afrikaner crime propaganda. Before and during the last wolrd cup in South Africa, were it not you and your ilk a like that were projecting a large wave of crimes on tourists visiting the wolrd cup? Guess what, news flash, there was no wave of crimes during the wolrd cup.

All you do is bad mouth South Africa, because ilk like you have lost your privilege in South Africa. poohoo, cry me a river.

Of course many of those people selected are on political grounds, but it does nothing on the ground in terms of substance. How well did Bush's diverse cabinet end up doing???

How can you say they've done a good job, BEE has only helped a few well connected people, poverty is still ridiculously high, inequality hasn't changed and it even increased in the first 11 years of ANC rule. You talk about reforming the economy, why has South Africa been plagued by one of the highest unemployment rates all this time?? Why is growth so meagre? Given it'd stage of development, it's recession last year South Africa is poised not to grow more than 3.5% for the coming years.

Go act somewhere else like you want to reason. I can see straight thru your bigotry. Because of bigots like you, it probably will take longer then usuall for a white person to be elected president of South Africa. So if that's your goal I would go hide in your little 'Orania State' or at least keep quite.

Listen here bigot, I don't need any backing when the history books, the UN and every human rights institution are full of backing. Understandebly you don't consider atrocities committed by your neonazi bretheren against the poor blacks as crimes. Gues what they're crimes against humanity on grand scale.
Stop whining about a little pitty crime you have in South Africa and I'm not interested in your Neonazi afrikaner crime propaganda. Before and during the last wolrd cup in South Africa, were it not you and your ilk a like that were projecting a large wave of crimes on tourists visiting the wolrd cup? Guess what, news flash, there was no wave of crimes during the wolrd cup.

All you do is bad mouth South Africa, because ilk like you have lost your privilege in South Africa. poohoo, cry me a river.

Human rights backing? What are you talking about? When did I say apartheid was any good? Were talking about incompetence of the ANC.

Again, you've surprised me by producing an even more incoherent post or mindless rambling and insults. Congrats!

I won't bother responding to any of your idiotic nonsense. It's because of people like you that threads get locked, with multiple posts filled with insults.

Human rights backing? What are you talking about? When did I say apartheid was any good? Were talking about incompetence of the ANC.

Again, you've surprised me by producing an even more incoherent post or mindless rambling and insults. Congrats!

I won't bother responding to any of your idiotic nonsense. It's because of people like you that threads get locked, with multiple posts filled with insults.

You have more then strongly suggested that apartheid was good. don't act innocent now that I have shown who you really are.
You're the one calling me an indiot.Isn't that an insult?

You have more then strongly suggested that apartheid was good. don't act innocent now that I have shown who you really are.
You're the one calling me an indiot.Isn't that an insult?

Prove it, show me a post where I suggest that I supported the apartheid government.

You probably won't be able to find anything.

Anyways this topic is about South Africa's competitive advantage over Brazil. So given the conditions, why is South Africa underperforming so much?

No one expected people to magically join the middle class, but you haven't explained how South Africa had greater income inequality under the ANC than apartheid, that is a shocking statistic.

I don't think you considered that lots of wealthy Whites left South Africa for Aussie, EU, and North American in the 100s of 1000s. Simply because they didn't see themselves living under a nation with Black executive and legislative governments.

Lots of money left the country leaving the treasury even worst, after the wars and the Sanctions.

You also didn't consider that Black masses were un-educated and lacked skills.

You also didn't consider that the Mandela, then Mbeki Administrations Inherited an almost broke State. Which was the reason why they left the war in Angola due to home grown pressure as the treasury kept drying due to Sanctions.

Neither did you consider the influx of million of other Africans into SA that added to even more unemployed.




You haven't explained how shocking unemployment when its structural. They've had 16 years of rule with little opposition. In that time so much could have been done.

Simple Alex. Masses of Uneducated, perhaps you thing its only 2 or 3 million Uneducated.

DA is a White Party , whilst ANC is the big boy that thought for Freedom of it Constituents. They are still regarded as Liberators by the Masses and even the few Black Educated who run it.

Where do you expect a strong Opposition to come from ? Within just 11 years?

Is this newly added Black Middle Class came out of the blue or simply a myth? They now have more purchasing power than Whites Middle Class.

I think in 16 years is an Ok job.

Although personally i think ANC has not gotten to the level i expected or would like them to be at the the moment. (I think at this time All Black SAns must have fresh drinking water, Electricity , Decent housing and minimum education).

The money they spent on the WC, could have done all these things. Their inability to contain the mass violent crimes and failure to control Immigration.

Thats the reasons why i'm pissed off at ANC.


But Alex. You think its that easy to govern a nation thats almost broke, with majority of the country uneducated?

Prove it, show me a post where I suggest that I supported the apartheid government.

You probably won't be able to find anything.

Anyways this topic is about South Africa's competitive advantage over Brazil. So given the conditions, why is South Africa underperforming so much?

No one expected people to magically join the middle class, but you haven't explained how South Africa had greater income inequality under the ANC than apartheid, that is a shocking statistic. You haven't explained how shocking unemployment when its structural. They've had 16 years of rule with little opposition. In that time so much could have been done.

Don't even get me started on education and those incompetent teachers. South Africa scores worse than any middle income country

First of all how can you even say that South Africa had greater income inequality under the ANC than apartheid? When blacks had practically no income, no freedom, they where actually slaves living in dungeons. They weren't even allowed to be in the city after 5.00 pm.They were made to be illigall citizen in their own country. How could you posibly say that the inequality is now greater than before. Now days the black middle class is larger than the white middle class, when during apartheid there weren't even a black middle class.You blame the ANC government for all the ills in the country, but may I remind you that those incompetent teachers came straight out of apartheid South Africa. After apartheid many of the big businesses tried to relocate out of South Africa and never gave the new government a chance. Sasol was a government onwed entity but was sold to to NP party cronies below market value. I hear no complains from you about that. Many Afrikaners have illigally siphoned money out of the country. If I'm not mistaken their was an amnesty to bring those illegall funds back without penalty. I hear no complains about that. Those uneducated blacks came straight out of apartheid South Africa.I could go on and on but the bottom line is the ANC was hit with a worst situation, they did their best,their best isn't good enough but it will take time to wright the wrongs of 300 years. 16 years of uniterupted economic growth, I think they have done pretty good and better then Brazil, where the Brazillians have been in charge of their destinations for 100s of years compare to the majority of South Africans being in charge of their destinations only 16 years. I don't want to get to racially here because I don't want this thread to get locked.

No one expected people to magically join the middle class, but you haven't explained how South Africa had greater income inequality under the ANC than apartheid, that is a shocking statistic. You haven't explained how shocking unemployment when its structural. They've had 16 years of rule with little opposition. In that time so much could have been done.

Don't even get me started on education and those incompetent teachers. South Africa scores worse than any middle income country

First of all how can you even say that South Africa had greater income inequality under the ANC than apartheid? When blacks had practically no income, no freedom, they where actually slaves living in dungeons. They weren't even allowed to be in the city after 5.00 pm.They were made to be illigall citizen in their own country. How could you posibly say that the inequality is now greater than before. Now days the black middle class is larger than the white middle class, when during apartheid there weren't even a black middle class.You blame the ANC government for all the ills in the country, but may I remind you that those incompetent teachers came straight out of apartheid South Africa. After apartheid many of the big businesses tried to relocate out of South Africa and never gave the new government a chance. Sasol was a government onwed entity but was sold to to NP party cronies below market value. I hear no complains from you about that. Many Afrikaners have illigally siphoned money out of the country. If I'm not mistaken their was an amnesty to bring those illegall funds back without penalty. I hear no complains about that. Those uneducated blacks came straight out of apartheid South Africa.I could go on and on but the bottom line is the ANC was hit with a worst situation, they did their best,their best isn't good enough but it will take time to wright the wrongs of 300 years. 16 years of uniterupted economic growth, I think they have done pretty good and better then Brazil, where the Brazillians have been in charge of their destinations for 100s of years compare to the majority of South Africans being in charge of their destinations only 16 years. I don't want to get to racially here because I don't want this thread to get locked.

SO I TAKE IT THAT ALL OF YOU LIVE IN SOUTH AFRICA?

SO I TAKE IT THAT ALL OF YOU LIVE IN SOUTH AFRICA?

This an excerp of an article in the New York times even though the New York times is not located in South Africa.

"But the university provided him with extensive, specialized instruction tailored for struggling students and weekly counseling sessions. Mr. Mpotulo also dug deep into himself. He recently sketched the family tree of relatives depending on him.

“These are the people I worry about,” he said gravely. “I have to somehow find success. If I give up, there will literally be no one employed at home.”

Mr. Mpotulo is now confident he will graduate from medical school, though it will take eight years instead of the standard six. He is considering a career in public health. He believes his mother’s death, of a stroke in her 30s, could have been prevented if she had gotten decent medical care.

In his own difficult life experience, he said, the legacy of centuries of white domination lives on. “I sympathize with a white student, doing very well, who can’t become a student here because of affirmative action,” he said, “but I think it’s an absolutely necessary evil"

Link to the article in the New york times below:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/world/africa/23safrica.html?pagewanted=2&ref=africa

Though she fought against it, she is still part of that party. THAT is what people look at. I would rather see a significant non-corrupt break away from the ANC rather than the DP in power.

I would rather a fully functional municipality, provincial government or even national government that ir run by any party in South Africa than have a stereotypical racial elected party which fails the majority and still serving the master.

I don't think you considered that lots of wealthy Whites left South Africa for Aussie, EU, and North American in the 100s of 1000s. Simply because they didn't see themselves living under a nation with Black executive and legislative governments.

Lots of money left the country leaving the treasury even worst, after the wars and the Sanctions.

You also didn't consider that Black masses were un-educated and lacked skills.

You also didn't consider that the Mandela, then Mbeki Administrations Inherited an almost broke State. Which was the reason why they left the war in Angola due to home grown pressure as the treasury kept drying due to Sanctions.

Neither did you consider the influx of million of other Africans into SA that added to even more unemployed.






Simple Alex. Masses of Uneducated, perhaps you thing its only 2 or 3 million Uneducated.

DA is a White Party , whilst ANC is the big boy that thought for Freedom of it Constituents. They are still regarded as Liberators by the Masses and even the few Black Educated who run it.

Where do you expect a strong Opposition to come from ? Within just 11 years?

Is this newly added Black Middle Class came out of the blue or simply a myth? They now have more purchasing power than Whites Middle Class.

I think in 16 years is an Ok job.

Although personally i think ANC has not gotten to the level i expected or would like them to be at the the moment. (I think at this time All Black SAns must have fresh drinking water, Electricity , Decent housing and minimum education).

The money they spent on the WC, could have done all these things. Their inability to contain the mass violent crimes and failure to control Immigration.

Thats the reasons why i'm pissed off at ANC.


But Alex. You think its that easy to govern a nation thats almost broke, with majority of the country uneducated?

Wealthy whites leaving South Africa would result in a decrease in income inequality. Yet what we've seen is a decrease in inequality between blacks and whites yet overall inequality has increased. That to me only shows that a few blacks have gotten very well off, while the previous elites either left or lost the privileges they had under apartheid.

Part of the reason why Venezuela has seen a big reduction income inequality is that much of the elite has left for Miami.

Simple Alex. Masses of Uneducated, perhaps you thing its only 2 or 3 million Uneducated.

DA is a White Party , whilst ANC is the big boy that thought for Freedom of it Constituents. They are still regarded as Liberators by the Masses and even the few Black Educated who run it.

Where do you expect a strong Opposition to come from ? Within just 11 years?

Is this newly added Black Middle Class came out of the blue or simply a myth? They now have more purchasing power than Whites Middle Class.

I think in 16 years is an Ok job.

Although personally i think ANC has not gotten to the level i expected or would like them to be at the the moment. (I think at this time All Black SAns must have fresh drinking water, Electricity , Decent housing and minimum education).

The money they spent on the WC, could have done all these things. Their inability to contain the mass violent crimes and failure to control Immigration.

Thats the reasons why i'm pissed off at ANC.


But Alex. You think its that easy to govern a nation thats almost broke, with majority of the country uneducated?

How can Brazil have only 5.7% unemployment when it has masses of uneducated people? I mean their are plenty of countries who are less developed or have just as many ignorant masses yet unemployment is no where near as high. Many of such examples could be found in Africa.

No one expected people to magically join the middle class, but you haven't explained how South Africa had greater income inequality under the ANC than apartheid, that is a shocking statistic. You haven't explained how shocking unemployment when its structural. They've had 16 years of rule with little opposition. In that time so much could have been done.

Don't even get me started on education and those incompetent teachers. South Africa scores worse than any middle income country

First of all how can you even say that South Africa had greater income inequality under the ANC than apartheid? When blacks had practically no income, no freedom, they where actually slaves living in dungeons. They weren't even allowed to be in the city after 5.00 pm.They were made to be illigall citizen in their own country. How could you posibly say that the inequality is now greater than before. Now days the black middle class is larger than the white middle class, when during apartheid there weren't even a black middle class.You blame the ANC government for all the ills in the country, but may I remind you that those incompetent teachers came straight out of apartheid South Africa. After apartheid many of the big businesses tried to relocate out of South Africa and never gave the new government a chance. Sasol was a government onwed entity but was sold to to NP party cronies below market value. I hear no complains from you about that. Many Afrikaners have illigally siphoned money out of the country. If I'm not mistaken their was an amnesty to bring those illegall funds back without penalty. I hear no complains about that. Those uneducated blacks came straight out of apartheid South Africa.I could go on and on but the bottom line is the ANC was hit with a worst situation, they did their best,their best isn't good enough but it will take time to wright the wrongs of 300 years. 16 years of uniterupted economic growth, I think they have done pretty good and better then Brazil, where the Brazillians have been in charge of their destinations for 100s of years compare to the majority of South Africans being in charge of their destinations only 16 years. I don't want to get to racially here because I don't want this thread to get locked.

"We find that not only has income inequality remained high for the period under review, but it has also increased significantly between 1995 and 2005".

http://ideas.repec.org/p/ctw/wpaper/96114.html

You should download the entire study.

Washington, DC — The question of how much change in social and economic conditions has followed the fall of apartheid in South Africa has provoked not also much debate but also significant research. A useful new report by Murray Leibbrant and others at the Southern Africa Labour and Development Research Unit in Cape Town provides both a summary of previous research and new analysis of household-level data between 1993 and 2008.



The unsurprising bottom line: inequality between races has decreased but is still large; within-race inequality has increased, and so has overall inequality; income poverty has diminished somewhat, particularly among the poorest, while services have increased but still fall far short of meeting the needs. And the decrease in income poverty is due primarily to child support grants and old age pensions, not to the labor market which continues to promote inequality.
http://allafrica.com/stories/201010120608.html

How can Brazil have only 5.7% unemployment when it has masses of uneducated people?

Not sure why you'll really bring in a nation that has been free for about 200 years to the one with only 16.

Thats absolutely Very irrelevant to compare Brazil to SA.

I mean their are plenty of countries who are less developed or have just as many ignorant masses yet unemployment is no where near as high. Many of such examples could be found in Africa.

Sure, i know about that. But you expect SA to grow at the same pace as Angola or Nigeria?

Come on, look at the discrepancy of developments between these nations.

However: Not sure if you read my entire post.


I think in 16 years is an Ok job.

Although personally i think ANC has not gotten to the level i expected or would like them to be at the the moment. (I think at this time All Black SAns must have fresh drinking water, Electricity , Decent housing and minimum education).

The money they spent on the WC, could have done all these things. Their inability to contain the mass violent crimes and failure to control Immigration.

Thats the reasons why i'm pissed off at ANC.

They could overtake them if South africa stays still in those 2-3 decades otherwise no! :lol:

I think South Africa will hit 7% growth from 2015-2020. Plus it's not even all over SA that is slow. The big three provinces Gauteng, Western Cape and Kwazulu-Natal are still growing very fast, the shyt provinces like the Eastern Cape and North West province are the ones who are making south african growth slow.

I see Northern Cape coming to the party soon as well...with development of MeerKAT taken place already and the proposed 5000 Megawatt Solar park at a cost of R150 and the SKA, I'm crossing my toes that South Africa win the bid to host it. If all those becomes succesfull, we will see a new type of industry "Green Industry" creating a boom of property and other industries because of migration of people to that area.

Northwest and Eastern Cape are looters province and i'm not expcting anything from them until a different political party takes over or the ANC wakes up and smells the coffee.

Wealthy whites leaving South Africa would result in a decrease in income inequality. Yet what we've seen is a decrease in inequality between blacks and whites yet overall inequality has increased.
Many left . What was the result?

Few blacks got out of the hole, the majority is still there ,Elite Status quo continues to climb the ladder.

But there isn't no alternative to ANC. But i think by the end of this decade (perhaps before), a new challenger will emerge.
That to me only shows that a few blacks have gotten very well off, while the previous elites either left or lost the privileges they had under apartheid.

Part of the reason why Venezuela has seen a big reduction income inequality is that much of the elite has left for Miami.

Yes they left the country with the riches.

Not sure why you'll really bring in a nation that has been free for about 200 years to the one with only 16.

Thats absolutely Very irrelevant to compare Brazil to SA.



Sure, i know about that. But you expect SA to grow at the same pace as Angola or Nigeria?

Come on, look at the discrepancy of developments between these nations.

However: Not sure if you read my entire post.

I only make the comparison because you said that unemployment is due to the uneducated masses. Well in Brazil, another middle income country has terrible education and masses of functionally illiterate people (many in my family) yet unemployment is 1/5 of South Africa's. In 2003 it stood at 14% today it's under 6%.

South Africa in order to effectively reduce poverty, unemployment and inequality needs to grow at least 6%, it's currently growing half the rate.

I only make the comparison because you said that unemployment is due to the uneducated masses. Well in Brazil, another middle income country has terrible education and masses of functionally illiterate people (many in my family) yet unemployment is 1/5 of South Africa's. In 2003 it stood at 14% today it's under 6%.

Terrible education for Brazil ?How can compare the literacy rate for these 2 countries for the last 14 years?

I find that a another irrelevant comparison.

You also didn't read where i included the influx of millions of other africans and other immigrants that increased Unemployment. Didn't help at all, made matters worst.

There are no ways Inequality increased since end of aparthied . What economic power did blacks have? They didn't even have electricity , terrible water supplies and no purchasing power at all.
Then the Elite continued the climbing .

How did the inequality increase when there have been a new black purchasing power that outnumbering the Elite status quo (numerically), from zero in 1995?

We both agree that they could have and must do better that what has been done in the last 11+ years. Especially Education wise. Because, should a country want to reform . Education is the engine.


South Africa in order to effectively reduce poverty, unemployment and inequality needs to grow at least 6%, it's currently growing half the rate.

We both agree here..

And the money they spent on the WC, could have taken all those people still in Super Slums out of the misery they still see today by providing decent social housing , clean water, elektricity to say at least.

But the WC was sweeter than taking people out of misery.:ohno:

Terrible education for Brazil ?How can compare the literacy rate for these 2 countries for the last 14 years?

I find that a another irrelevant comparison.

You also didn't read where i included the influx of millions of other africans and other immigrants that increased Unemployment. Didn't help at all, made matters worst.

There are no ways Inequality increased since end of aparthied . What economic power did blacks have? They didn't even have electricity , terrible water supplies and no purchasing power at all.
Then the Elite continued the climbing .

How did the inequality increase when there have been a new black purchasing power that outnumbering the Elite status quo (numerically), from zero in 1995?

We both agree that they could have and must do better that what has been done in the last 11+ years. Especially Education wise. Because, should a country want to reform . Education is the engine.




We both agree here..

And the money they spent on the WC, could have taken all those people still in Super Slums out of the misery they still see today by providing decent social housing , clean water, elektricity to say at least.

But the WC was sweeter than taking people out of misery.:ohno:

They spend 30 billion rand on the wolrd cup. Compared to the money the South Africans are spending on infrastructure, housing, education, healthcare it's chump change. One power station alone cost about 120 billion rand. Eskom is in the process of building 2 of these stations. Further more the total expenditure in the near future Eskom is planning to make is more than 1 trillion rands. This is just for energy. We're not even talking about the other sectors of the economy. So people complaining about the South african government spending a pittance on the wolrd cup is disingenuous. Besides the 30 billion rand spend on the wolrd cup created a lot of jobs in the construction businesses, boosted small indigenuous businesses and provided positive marketing for the country in general around the wolrd. Second it help the economy in general with increased tourism. So in all I think the wolrd cup was a good thing for South Africa.

"We find that not only has income inequality remained high for the period under review, but it has also increased significantly between 1995 and 2005".

http://ideas.repec.org/p/ctw/wpaper/96114.html

You should download the entire study.

Washington, DC — The question of how much change in social and economic conditions has followed the fall of apartheid in South Africa has provoked not also much debate but also significant research. A useful new report by Murray Leibbrant and others at the Southern Africa Labour and Development Research Unit in Cape Town provides both a summary of previous research and new analysis of household-level data between 1993 and 2008.



The unsurprising bottom line: inequality between races has decreased but is still large; within-race inequality has increased, and so has overall inequality; income poverty has diminished somewhat, particularly among the poorest, while services have increased but still fall far short of meeting the needs. And the decrease in income poverty is due primarily to child support grants and old age pensions, not to the labor market which continues to promote inequality.
http://allafrica.com/stories/201010120608.html

The study for the most part proofs my point. And proof that you are wrong all along. Thanks for doing the research. You saved me the time.

Terrible education for Brazil ?How can compare the literacy rate for these 2 countries for the last 14 years?

I find that a another irrelevant comparison.

You also didn't read where i included the influx of millions of other africans and other immigrants that increased Unemployment. Didn't help at all, made matters worst.

There are no ways Inequality increased since end of aparthied . What economic power did blacks have? They didn't even have electricity , terrible water supplies and no purchasing power at all.
Then the Elite continued the climbing .

How did the inequality increase when there have been a new black purchasing power that outnumbering the Elite status quo (numerically), from zero in 1995?

We both agree that they could have and must do better that what has been done in the last 11+ years. Especially Education wise. Because, should a country want to reform . Education is the engine.




We both agree here..

And the money they spent on the WC, could have taken all those people still in Super Slums out of the misery they still see today by providing decent social housing , clean water, elektricity to say at least.

But the WC was sweeter than taking people out of misery.:ohno:
Terrible education for Brazil ?How can compare the literacy rate for these 2 countries for the last 14 years?

I find that a another irrelevant comparison.

You also didn't read where i included the influx of millions of other africans and other immigrants that increased Unemployment. Didn't help at all, made matters worst.

There are no ways Inequality increased since end of aparthied . What economic power did blacks have? They didn't even have electricity , terrible water supplies and no purchasing power at all.
Then the Elite continued the climbing .

How did the inequality increase when there have been a new black purchasing power that outnumbering the Elite status quo (numerically), from zero in 1995?

We both agree that they could have and must do better that what has been done in the last 11+ years. Especially Education wise. Because, should a country want to reform . Education is the engine.




We both agree here..

And the money they spent on the WC, could have taken all those people still in Super Slums out of the misery they still see today by providing decent social housing , clean water, elektricity to say at least.

But the WC was sweeter than taking people out of misery.:ohno:

Actually the literacy rates are relatively similar, for 2009 it's 92% for Brazil while in South Africa it's in the upper 80's.

You do have a point with regards to immigration, Brazil has never had to contend with that.

Dude, read any article regarding inequality in South Africa it's an established fact that it has increased. Just google it and you'll find tons of articles on it, inequality between whites and blacks has decreased but it's increased exponentially between blacks.

I got attacked and called a bigot by members like Jules because I thought the WC's most expensive project Gautrain caters to the rich and foreigners and their weren't enough socially minded investments, other than a few token sports complex in the townships.

The study for the most part proofs my point. And proof that you are wrong all along. Thanks for doing the research. You saved me the time.

LOL! Yeah, I proved to you that income inequality has increased, which you doubted and called me a bigot. Poverty has declined, but actually read what you highlighted, it's based on government programs for kids and the elderly, not on the job market which is the most effective and sustainable way of reducing poverty. Which explains why unemployment is so ridiculously high. When you depend on government programs to keep poverty down, when an economic crisis happens, then your screwed because theirs little money to pay for all that. This partly explains why South Africa is not on course to accomplish most of the millennium development goals. Poverty may have even increased in the last 2 years, but I'll have to research that.

http://www.polity.org.za/article/south-africa-failing-to-reach-millennium-development-goals-2010-09-22

LOL! Yeah, I proved to you that income inequality has increased, which you doubted and called me a bigot. Poverty has declined, but actually read what you highlighted, it's based on government programs for kids and the elderly, not on the job market which is the most effective and sustainable way of reducing poverty. Which explains why unemployment is so ridiculously high. When you depend on government programs to keep poverty down, when an economic crisis happens, then your screwed because theirs little money to pay for all that. This partly explains why South Africa is not on course to accomplish most of the millennium development goals. Poverty may have even increased in the last 2 years, but I'll have to research that. http://www.polity.org.za/article/south-africa-failing-to-reach-millennium-development-goals-2010-09-22

So you don't know, but you're hoping that poverty has increased so that you can say one more bad thing about the ANC. Ok, I got you, I feel your pain.:lol:

So you don't know, but you're hoping that poverty has increased so that you can say one more bad thing about the ANC. Ok, I got you, I feel your pain.:lol:

Why would I hope for such a thing, unlike you I've actually done charity work in South Africa, I've worked with pre med students in a public hospital in Port Elizabeth tending to AIDS patients. I also took part (only for two days) with a charity group Ubuntu to supply light bulbs in a township outside of Cape Town. I've given up many summers for the past 5 years to do my little part.

And just for the record poverty has increased in the last few years, while we've seen a reduction in rural poverty, urban poverty has expanded over the years.

Why would I hope for such a thing, unlike you I've actually done charity work in South Africa, I've worked with pre med students in a public hospital in Port Elizabeth tending to AIDS patients. I also took part (only for two days) with a charity group Ubuntu to supply light bulbs in a township outside of Cape Town. I've given up many summers for the past 5 years to do my little part.

And just for the record poverty has increased in the last few years, while we've seen a reduction in rural poverty, urban poverty has expanded over the years.

Oh you sure don't know what I have done in my life when it comes to charity work. Unlike you doing a little bit here and there and then scream about how good you are.
You forgot rain, draught, the earth getting warmer, grass, trees the ocean water being to salty, the sharks biting people once in a while, it's all the ANC's fault. I mean common!

Oh you sure don't know what I have done in my life when it comes to charity work. Unlike you doing a little bit here and there and then scream about how good you are.
You forgot rain, draught, the earth getting warmer, grass, trees the ocean water being to salty, the sharks biting people once in a while, it's all the ANC's fault. I mean common!

I don't scream about how good I am, but you make dumb assertions that I take pleasure from poverty because I dislike the ANC. I dislike the ANC because of the little they've done to the underclass not for other reasons.

I don't scream about how good I am, but you make dumb assertions that I take pleasure from poverty because I dislike the ANC. I dislike the ANC because of the little they've done to the underclass not for other reasons.

Why don't you dislike the ones who are constantly badmouthing South Africa, doing everything in their power to sabotate the countrie's progress.

A quote from the late and great president John F. Kennedy " Ask not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country."

Why don't you dislike the ones who are constantly badmouthing South Africa, doing everything in their power to sabotate the countrie's progress.

A quote from the late and great president John F. Kennedy " Ask not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country."

First thing, I'm not South African. Secondly, I don't know who these people are I've defended South Africa countless times to the point that the Nigerians started to conspire that I was a secret South Africans. Just a few weeks back in the skybar I defended the ANC from a white South African who said that AIDS was handled better under apartheid than the ANC, ignoring the obvious fact that the big outbreak occurred in the 90's worldwide.

I got attacked and called a bigot by members like Jules because I thought the WC's most expensive project Gautrain caters to the rich and foreigners and their weren't enough socially minded investments, other than a few token sports complex in the townships.

Gautrain was not a World Cup project...I thought people understand this by now.

So you don't know, but you're hoping that poverty has increased so that you can say one more bad thing about the ANC. Ok, I got you, I feel your pain.:lol:

If I were you, I'd rather keep my mouth shut, because you are way off the road, Jules.

Then you ask yourself the question, how can one build a nation with people like this.

It is such a shame.

Gautrain was not a World Cup project...I thought people understand this by now.

Not sure what you consider World class, but to most (if not all) it is.

BTW , was this this a private funded or government? Cause i will be pissed off more if its government .

If I were you, I'd rather keep my mouth shut, because you are way off the road, Jules.

Then you ask yourself the question, how can one build a nation with people like this. It is such a shame.

Do you mean with people like you? Who thinks that others should shut up.
I understand that in your lily neonazi NP apartheid era you were the only one that had a right to speak.
Welcome to the era where everybody has a right to speak up.
If you can't handle it, then maybe you should move in to a cave.

Not sure what you consider World class, but to most (if not all) it is.

BTW , was this this a private funded or government? Cause i will be pissed off more if its government .

Why? Do you think that the metrorails in the west are privately funded? I don't know any that are privately funded. Not even the internet was privately funded. The internet was a government funded project called DARPA. Yes even the internet.

Gautrain was not a World Cup project...I thought people understand this by now.

Those who wants to undestand it will understand it, those who doesn't won't. In the US we call it willfull ignorance.

Do you mean with people like you? Who thinks that others should shut up.
I understand that in your lily neonazi NP apartheid era you were the only one that had a right to speak.
Welcome to the era where everybody has a right to speak up.
If you can't handle it, then maybe you should move in to a cave.


Its for me very strange how people like jules3c can linger so long on the past. The past is the past and we as people should learn from past mistake and try our best not to make the same mistake twice.

But you jules, you... I realy do feel sorry for you, cause you clearly are a very bitter man that cannot forgive and move one with your life.
All your anger is coming out on this forum toward people who is not black in your eyes.

WHY DONT YOU JUST LET IT GO AND MOVE ON.

But then your next responce would be, whu dont all of yo'll white people go back to where you come from and leave us black in our counrty.

Well, its time you should smell that coffee, JULES3C, whites, indian, coloureds, asians, we all are going know where, cause guess what, we are all south africans.

So, get rid of your anger and start seeing people for who they are and not what the colour of their skin is.

Oh and jules3c, MWAH on your cheek. (((((((((((((SMILE))))))))))))

Not sure what you consider World class, but to most (if not all) it is.

BTW , was this this a private funded or government? Cause i will be pissed off more if its government .


^^ you misread my post BUTEMBO...

Gautrain was not a World Cup project...I thought people understand this by now.

^^ you misread my post BUTEMBO...

My bad. i was sleeping when i read it:lol:. i jus realized a while ago.

Gautrain was not a World Cup project...I thought people understand this by now.

Oh bull crap, it might not have been officially a world cup project, but it was an important project that catered to especially the incoming WC, especially since it was completed months shy of the first match. I also stand by that from a social point of view the WC in South Africa was woeful, I think even you can admit that. Gautrain was one of the most expensive projects undertaken and it will benefit foreigners and the wealthy.

Rio wouldn't have suddenly started focusing on favela urbanization programs had it not been for the being awarded the WC and Olympics, sad but true. At least better late than never and it's the 2nd most expensive program thankfully it's going to those that have the most to gain, the poor. The first of course is the high speed rail link between Sao Paulo - Rio a travesty given it's cost, so South Africa isn't the only country that spends on lavish projects based on prestige over priority. :ohno:

Those who wants to undestand it will understand it, those who doesn't won't. In the US we call it willfull ignorance.

i understand it jules loud and clear and i agree with a lot of what you've said on this thread good sir.

Cpt. jules santana (salutes) :lol:

Gautrain was not a World Cup project...I thought people understand this by now.

You know well this project had to do with the WC. To impress the world.

Total waste of money. the needy left in the hole again.

so let me get this straight, butembo and alex think that south africa is worse off with the gautrain????

and south africa spends alot of money on social welfare of its people. so i see no problem with this investment

plus even if it was built to cater for the wealthy what is so wrong with that??? the wealthy own business and invest in SA so i think more and better investment in transportation such as the gautrain is a smart idea.

for you alex to claim that the gautrain was build just to show off to the world cup during the world cup is just plain out wrong and of all the people i expect a well informed person like alex to know better than that

so let me get this straight, butembo and alex think that south africa is worse off with the gautrain????

and south africa spends alot of money on social welfare of its people. so i see no problem with this investment

plus even if it was built to cater for the wealthy what is so wrong with that??? the wealthy own business and invest in SA so i think more and better investment in transportation such as the gautrain is a smart idea.

for you alex to claim that the gautrain was build just to show off to the world cup during the world cup is just plain out wrong and of all the people i expect a well informed person like alex to know better than that

Have you taken a look at the slums that still stand around ? Spending money on the already wealthy, whilst there are still millions with no decent Housing, N Electricity , No decent Sanitation (Toilet).

But you say Gautrain is a priority?

Sorry, i'm not a fan of extreme Capitalism and super greed. If SA spends enough on Social. There wouldn't still be that many people living in such conditions.

I don't care about Super trains that will serve the few, 1st thing i want to see is everyone has excess to decent housing, Water, Electricity, Decent housing , Education and Healthcare. Then the super trains can get built.

EDIT: I'm a socialist friend.

so let me get this straight, butembo and alex think that south africa is worse off with the gautrain????

and south africa spends alot of money on social welfare of its people. so i see no problem with this investment

plus even if it was built to cater for the wealthy what is so wrong with that??? the wealthy own business and invest in SA so i think more and better investment in transportation such as the gautrain is a smart idea.

for you alex to claim that the gautrain was build just to show off to the world cup during the world cup is just plain out wrong and of all the people i expect a well informed person like alex to know better than that

It's a question of prioritizing, and to spend a lot of public money that will only benefit a few privileged and foreigners is totally wrong in my opinion. All the worst since South Africa especially in the Joburg metropolitan area has a pretty crummy public transportation system and it's the poor who suffer most from it because they have to travel greater distances to get to work.

It's a question of prioritizing, and to spend a lot of public money that will only benefit a few privileged and foreigners is totally wrong in my opinion. All the worst since South Africa especially in the Joburg metropolitan area has a pretty crummy public transportation system and it's the poor who suffer most from it because they have to travel greater distances to get to work.

+1000

Its for me very strange how people like jules3c can linger so long on the past. The past is the past and we as people should learn from past mistake and try our best not to make the same mistake twice.

But you jules, you... I realy do feel sorry for you, cause you clearly are a very bitter man that cannot forgive and move one with your life.
All your anger is coming out on this forum toward people who is not black in your eyes.

WHY DONT YOU JUST LET IT GO AND MOVE ON.

But then your next responce would be, whu dont all of yo'll white people go back to where you come from and leave us black in our counrty.

Well, its time you should smell that coffee, JULES3C, whites, indian, coloureds, asians, we all are going know where, cause guess what, we are all south africans.

So, get rid of your anger and start seeing people for who they are and not what the colour of their skin is.

Oh and jules3c, MWAH on your cheek. (((((((((((((SMILE))))))))))))

:lol: :lol: This may come as a surprise to you, but I agree with most of what you say on here.
First I'm not a bitter man. Far from it. I understand that you misunderstand me, but that's ok.

Its for me very strange how people like jules3c can linger so long on the past. The past is the past and we as people should learn from past mistake and try our best not to make the same mistake twice.

I don't linger on the past. What I don't accept is the rewriting of history. Also one must be able to agree to disagree. Yes we should learn from our past mistake and make things better then before.

From nsub-guy:
But you jules, you... I realy do feel sorry for you, cause you clearly are a very bitter man that cannot forgive and move one with your life.
All your anger is coming out on this forum toward people who is not black in your eyes.
I actually have to laugh because clearly you have a wrong impression about me. My beef with the well to do in south Africa is not who they are but what they are doing. Forget about the past for a momemt, but the constant whining of how bad the ANC is and how good they are. Wel OK then, have any of these liberal wealthy people in south Africa build a hospital for the poor, or better yet help build some schools for the children of South Africa?


WHY DONT YOU JUST LET IT GO AND MOVE ON.
Oh dear to be honest I'm not angry at anybody.

From nsub-guy:
But then your next responce would be, whu dont all of yo'll white people go back to where you come from and leave us black in our counrty.

Didn't President Zuma said that the afrikaners are real South-Africans? Who am I to say otherwise. Besides nobody in their right mind really mean that the white south africans aren't south africans. I think you maybe confusing white south africans beating up the poor blacks in the past and the poor black's reaction to mean that white south africans aren't really south africans.
What I would like to see is a concerted efford from the white South-Africans who have so much capability, know how and ability not to forget the finances to help build the country instead of whining that you have lost the political power. In liberal America it took 50 years to get a black elected president, but you want to get elected president from day one.common.

Well, its time you should smell that coffee, JULES3C, whites, indian, coloureds, asians, we all are going know where, cause guess what, we are all south africans.

Oh my brother I smelt that coffee long before you smelt it. We have to work together to built a peacefull and prosperous South Africa for all South Africans.

i understand it jules loud and clear and i agree with a lot of what you've said on this thread good sir.

Cpt. jules santana (salutes) :lol:

I like my knew name. :lol:

Like which ones? South Africa so far is the only African country who is spending billions in research and development( only African country that has nano tech), on education and while that's no where nearly enough, I don't see any other African country spending money on research and development. Maybe countries like Ghana and Kenya could give them a run for their money. Angola is doing a lot of rebuilding but still nothing in research and development. I personally don't know much, but all evidence points out that nobody on the african continent will be able to catch up with the South Africans.]

most north african have some research in nano technology, and i don't think south africa will still be a leader in african economy if the ANC stay in power.

the youth of the ANC are going for communism, and they see zimbabwe as an exemple of there country.

south africa is a rich country and one of the top world exporter for gold platinium....., we have countries that double ther GDP everry 5 to 7 years and growing like crazy.

i don't understund how south africa economy will be bigger than nigeria or egypt in the next 30 years ???

i ll give just an exemple, south africa GDP was 7 time bigger than the algerian GDP 20 years ago, today is just less than 2 times bigger with smaller population.

so imagine if ANC youth take controle of the country in next 10 years, that will be the end of the south africa we know.

South Africa throws open the door to Cold War days RW Johnson From: The Australian December 27, 2010 12:00AM Increase Text SizeDecrease Text SizePrintEmail Share
Add to DiggAdd to del.icio.usAdd to FacebookAdd to KwoffAdd to MyspaceAdd to NewsvineWhat are these?SOUTH African President Jacob Zuma has given a warm to the World Federation of Democratic Youth, a former Soviet front organisation.
President Zuma greeted the body at a lavish conference with the twin themes of "Let's defeat imperialism" and "Solidarity with North Korea".

The World Youth Festival has previously been held in Pyongyang; the Cuban capital, Havana; and the Venezuelan capital, Caracas. It has cost Mr Zuma's government $4 million and the country's national lottery a further $6m to stage.

When it became clear that South Africa's Youth Development Agency was bent on hosting the festival, the opposition Democratic Alliance resigned from it in protest, claiming it was a "festival of the totalitarians".

Mr Zuma made the opening address, accompanied by a 21-gun salute and a fly-past, in which he said: "This country, which was isolated for so many years due to the evils of apartheid, has opened its borders to the world for progressive events of this nature."

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The biggest cheers were for Julius Malema, president of the ANC's Youth League. Best known for singing the inflammatory lyrics to the anti-apartheid "Shoot the Boer" song, he is the driving force behind the conference.

Mr Malema, 29, who was convicted of hate speech in March, is wildly popular among South Africa's young and has been tipped by Mr Zuma as a future leader.

He attacked Britain and the US and heaped praise on his "hero", the former Cuban leader Fidel Castro.

"We are here today to herald the first fight in the struggle against imperialism and we will not be apologetic about it," he boasted, to loud cheers.

Although Mr Malema has become rich through his so-called "tenderpreneurship" - the manipulation of political contacts to obtain lucrative state tenders - he follows a hard-left line, advocating nationalisation of the mines and a program of emulating the "reforms" of Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe.

His anti-white populism finds a ready audience among South Africa's legions of young unemployed and he has shown his ambition by pressing for the "rejuvenation" of the ANC leadership via the promotion of his Youth League stalwarts.

The festival, which ended last week, quickly descended into a shambles. There were angry scenes as 15,000 delegates found there was no transport to events, the catering arrangements failed and speakers did not turn up.

One speaker who did turn up was Jackie Selebi, the former national police chief and former head of Interpol, who gave a talk on imperialist and anti-communist bias in school textbooks. Mr Selebi, a convicted criminal, is facing a 15-year sentence for corruption.

Many delegates wore Che Guevara T-shirts but others favoured pictures of Lenin and Stalin. Alexander Batov, 31, from Russia, proclaimed that "life under imperialism means death", while Preethy Sekhar, 37, from Mumbai, declared: "I dream of a socialist world. We are looking for such a world."

Many of the militants were, like Mr Sekhar, no longer in the first bloom of youth.

The final declaration of the festival, agreed unanimously, was a wide-ranging condemnation of NATO, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the European Union, the World Trade Organisation and various other bodies.

The declaration was in favour of the reunification of Korea under socialist (North Korean) rule; referred to "the crisis of world capitalism"; and strongly supported Mugabe, Castro, the Palestinians and a range of radical groups.

Sholto Cross, a former communist imprisoned under apartheid, pointed out that condemnation of the World Bank sat oddly with South Africa's receipt of "unprecedentedly large" loans from the bank, at favourable rates.

"What this is all about," said political analyst Lawrence Schlemmer, "is the need to recreate the wonderful world of the Cold War when the ANC knew where it was and which side it was on.

"Things are now so much more complicated, but it gives the ANC great emotional reassurance to host such events and to be head of the great progressive family."

The Sunday Times

most north african have some research in nano technology, and i don't think south africa will still be a leader in african economy if the ANC stay in power.

the youth of the ANC are going for communism, and they see zimbabwe as an exemple of there country.

south africa is a rich country and one of the top world exporter for gold platinium....., we have countries that double ther GDP everry 5 to 7 years and growing like crazy.

i don't understund how south africa economy will be bigger than nigeria or egypt in the next 30 years ???

i ll give just an exemple, south africa GDP was 7 time bigger than the algerian GDP 20 years ago, today is just less than 2 times bigger with smaller population.

so imagine if ANC youth take controle of the country in next 10 years, that will be the end of the south africa we know.

you clearly failed to understand the dynamics of situations. You make predictions on very limited illusions.
Source for you nano technology research claim please.

South afica actually has the nano equipment to actually conduct experiments.
It sounds like your hoping that your beloved Egypt prevails. I wish you the best. Doubling your gdp every 5 to 7 years from 2 dollars is no achievement. america's economy is growing by a couple of percentage points a year. Does it means that some third wolrd country growing at 7% a year is going to catch up pretty soon? Keep hanging on Julius Malema. I have to break the the bad news for you , I doubt he'll ever make even minister in the South African government. However he makes for good fear mongering amongst the likes of you.

South Africa throws open the door to Cold War days RW Johnson From: The Australian December 27, 2010 12:00AM Increase Text SizeDecrease Text SizePrintEmail Share
Add to DiggAdd to del.icio.usAdd to FacebookAdd to KwoffAdd to MyspaceAdd to NewsvineWhat are these?SOUTH African President Jacob Zuma has given a warm to the World Federation of Democratic Youth, a former Soviet front organisation.
President Zuma greeted the body at a lavish conference with the twin themes of "Let's defeat imperialism" and "Solidarity with North Korea".

The World Youth Festival has previously been held in Pyongyang; the Cuban capital, Havana; and the Venezuelan capital, Caracas. It has cost Mr Zuma's government $4 million and the country's national lottery a further $6m to stage.

When it became clear that South Africa's Youth Development Agency was bent on hosting the festival, the opposition Democratic Alliance resigned from it in protest, claiming it was a "festival of the totalitarians".

Mr Zuma made the opening address, accompanied by a 21-gun salute and a fly-past, in which he said: "This country, which was isolated for so many years due to the evils of apartheid, has opened its borders to the world for progressive events of this nature."

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
.End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.
The biggest cheers were for Julius Malema, president of the ANC's Youth League. Best known for singing the inflammatory lyrics to the anti-apartheid "Shoot the Boer" song, he is the driving force behind the conference.

Mr Malema, 29, who was convicted of hate speech in March, is wildly popular among South Africa's young and has been tipped by Mr Zuma as a future leader.

He attacked Britain and the US and heaped praise on his "hero", the former Cuban leader Fidel Castro.

"We are here today to herald the first fight in the struggle against imperialism and we will not be apologetic about it," he boasted, to loud cheers.

Although Mr Malema has become rich through his so-called "tenderpreneurship" - the manipulation of political contacts to obtain lucrative state tenders - he follows a hard-left line, advocating nationalisation of the mines and a program of emulating the "reforms" of Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe.

His anti-white populism finds a ready audience among South Africa's legions of young unemployed and he has shown his ambition by pressing for the "rejuvenation" of the ANC leadership via the promotion of his Youth League stalwarts.

The festival, which ended last week, quickly descended into a shambles. There were angry scenes as 15,000 delegates found there was no transport to events, the catering arrangements failed and speakers did not turn up.

One speaker who did turn up was Jackie Selebi, the former national police chief and former head of Interpol, who gave a talk on imperialist and anti-communist bias in school textbooks. Mr Selebi, a convicted criminal, is facing a 15-year sentence for corruption.

Many delegates wore Che Guevara T-shirts but others favoured pictures of Lenin and Stalin. Alexander Batov, 31, from Russia, proclaimed that "life under imperialism means death", while Preethy Sekhar, 37, from Mumbai, declared: "I dream of a socialist world. We are looking for such a world."

Many of the militants were, like Mr Sekhar, no longer in the first bloom of youth.

The final declaration of the festival, agreed unanimously, was a wide-ranging condemnation of NATO, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the European Union, the World Trade Organisation and various other bodies.

The declaration was in favour of the reunification of Korea under socialist (North Korean) rule; referred to "the crisis of world capitalism"; and strongly supported Mugabe, Castro, the Palestinians and a range of radical groups.

Sholto Cross, a former communist imprisoned under apartheid, pointed out that condemnation of the World Bank sat oddly with South Africa's receipt of "unprecedentedly large" loans from the bank, at favourable rates.

"What this is all about," said political analyst Lawrence Schlemmer, "is the need to recreate the wonderful world of the Cold War when the ANC knew where it was and which side it was on.

"Things are now so much more complicated, but it gives the ANC great emotional reassurance to host such events and to be head of the great progressive family."

The Sunday Times

It might come as a surprise to you, but a majority of Americans aren't to fond with many of those institutions you named above here. As for south Africa going communist, nice try. South Africa will do what's best for South Africa.
Here in the US we do what's best for us. That means when we have to implement socialist rules to save capitalism like using government money to bail out capitalist banks and car manufactures, then so be it. We also pay farmers billions of dollars a years not to grow any food, so to manipulate food prices. An out right communist act. every country will do what is in their best interest. As for the ANC going communist, just one question what are they going to do with all the newly minted ANC rand billionairs? Do you think they'll just get rid of them? Sometimes you have to use your brain a little bit before spewing complete garbage out. The ANC in my view is in practice a
socialist capitalist organization, more in the line of western Europe, like Germany, UK, France ,USA.

It might come as a surprise to you, but a majority of Americans aren't to fond with many of those institutions you named above here. As for south Africa going communist, nice try. South Africa will do what's best for South Africa.
Here in the US we do what's best for us. That means when we have to implement socialist rules to save capitalism like using government money to bail out capitalist banks and car manufactures, then so be it. We also pay farmers billions of dollars a years not to grow any food, so to manipulate food prices. An out right communist act. every country will do what is in their best interest. As for the ANC going communist, just one question what are they going to do with all the newly minted ANC rand billionairs? Do you think they'll just get rid of them? Sometimes you have to use your brain a little bit before spewing complete garbage out. The ANC in my view is in practice a
socialist capitalist organization, more in the line of western Europe, like Germany, UK, France ,USA.

my brain is fine. and this is my point of view, i hope you don't mind free speach.

to answer your question, they will simply use the zimbabwe policy, nationalising all the gold mine...... and they will tax the hell out of the rich who have some saving.....

you clearly failed to understand the dynamics of situations. You make predictions on very limited illusions.
Source for you nano technology research claim please.

South afica actually has the nano equipment to actually conduct experiments.
It sounds like your hoping that your beloved Egypt prevails. I wish you the best. Doubling your gdp every 5 to 7 years from 2 dollars is no achievement. america's economy is growing by a couple of percentage points a year. Does it means that some third wolrd country growing at 7% a year is going to catch up pretty soon? Keep hanging on Julius Malema. I have to break the the bad news for you , I doubt he'll ever make even minister in the South African government. However he makes for good fear mongering amongst the likes of you.

first im not egyptien, and that was just an exemple.

2 i hope you're right about the julius malema and his friends but when i see south africa suporting communist in north africa since 2004, i can have the right to doubt that.

the exemple for egypt and nigeria was for the GDP, and i don't think that south africa will be on the top in 30 years, if the ANC of today stay in power, im not even talking about malema.

when you have a president who tell his citizen just take a shower after sex and you wont catch aids, or when you have a president who have too many wifes and im pretty sure have more girl friends and spend money on communist in other part of the world wile his citizen have probleme finding jobs..... i don't see it as a good sign

but i hope you right and the south african wont accept this kind of governement for a long time, if this happen i ll tell you that south africa will have a trillion $ economy befor everybody else in africa.

but for now i don't think that will happen and south africa will have a hard time competing with north african and countries like nigeria angola..... in the next 30 years.

Oh bull crap, it might not have been officially a world cup project, but it was an important project that catered to especially the incoming WC, especially since it was completed months shy of the first match.

In 2001, the bid was opened for construction of Gautrain, that was way before the April 2004 announcement by Sepp Blatter that SA was gonna be the host of 2010 FIFA World Cup. Yes, the winning on the bid accelerated the process which saw the leg between Sandton and O.R Tambo operating a couple of days before the world. It was said that if Gautrain was not ready by the start of the World Cup then busses will be used to transport visitors from the airport to the likes of Sandton.

I also stand by that from a social point of view the WC in South Africa was woeful, I think even you can admit that. Gautrain was one of the most expensive projects undertaken and it will benefit foreigners and the wealthy.

Roads were built, parks were "constructed", trees were planted, stadiums were upgraded etc in townships and other poor areas. In the process, people got employed and managed to feed their families during the process and also gain in terms of skilling. You can never write off the befits of teh World Cup even though I belive that the same people could have befitted more than what they have.


The first of course is the high speed rail link between Sao Paulo - Rio a travesty given it's cost, so South Africa isn't the only country that spends on lavish projects based on prestige over priority. :ohno:

Is that wrong?


You know well this project had to do with the WC. To impress the world.

Total waste of money. the needy left in the hole again.

Like Rea Vaya, People Mover, My Citi and other projects, the poor will benefit one way or another. Construction taking place around Gautrain is creating jobs for the poor and adding to their skill base. With retail coming to most stations, more jobs will be offered. World Cup and Gautrain was never a waiste of money, benefits are there for you all to see but having to turn a blind eye will leave you wondering on how the poor benefitted.

^^I don't get those who say that the gautrain investment was a waste of money, you've all seen the pics of the N1 (Ben Schoeman) road between JHB and PTA, its one of the businest routes in Africa, and it cuts a swathe through some of SA and Africa's most developed region.

Any investment to increase the efficiency of what is already the the most productive region of SA should be welcome, ontop of that the highway itself is being upgraded through the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Plan (GFIP). The returns on public infrastructure spending in places like Northern JHB have a high ROI and this mobey will be able to cross-subsidise other areas.

Some pics from JHB highways

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283661630/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283640922/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283660850/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283036067/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283636352/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5279954144/

Excuse the quality the pics where taken on my camera phone, more to follow...

^^I don't get those who say that the gautrain investment was a waste of money, you've all seen the pics of the N1 (Ben Schoeman) road between JHB and PTA, its one of the businest routes in Africa, and it cuts a swathe through some of SA and Africa's most developed region.

Any investment to increase the efficiency of what is already the the most productive region of SA should be welcome, ontop of that the highway itself is being upgraded through the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Plan (GFIP). The returns on public infrastructure spending in places like Northern JHB have a high ROI and this mobey will be able to cross-subsidise other areas.

Some pics from JHB highways

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283661630/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283640922/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283660850/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283036067/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5283636352/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57292554@N03/5279954144/

Excuse the quality the pics where taken on my camera phone, more to follow...

It doesn't matter what you say. The forces that be has made up their mind that nothing what the ANC does is good. It won't matter. If their is zero poverty in South Africa tommorrow, they'll find something else. Like blame the sun for shining to much, or blame the rain for raining to much, on the ANC.

my brain is fine. and this is my point of view, i hope you don't mind free speach.

to answer your question, they will simply use the zimbabwe policy, nationalising all the gold mine...... and they will tax the hell out of the rich who have some saving.....

:lol: I'm glad you enjoy your free speach.

How do you know that they will nationalise all the gold mines? By the way even though I don't support nationalisation, what's wrong with it. During the apartheid era all the corporations belonged to the state. Have you forgotten allready? Let me refresh your mind: Sasol, The steelcompanies like Arcelor, telkom south Africa was a state company. Why was it ok during the apartheid era, but not ok now. Bythe way some of the best manage companies in the wolrd are state owned. Let me name a few for you: Saudi Aramco, best managed oil company in the wolrd. Sonangol also considered one of the most efficient and best managed oil corporation in the wolrd.
Dubai wolrd . That's right that company that manages the largest sea ports in the wolrd is the best seaport managing company in the wolrd and guest what Dubai is not a communist country, neither is Saudi Arabia or Angola for that matter. Airfrance/KLM, Emiraty Airways are some of the best managed airliners in the wolrd and their all government owned.
I think either you believe to much in to that fear mongering or you yourself are engaged in that fear mongering, or am I wrong for thinking like that.

:lol: I'm glad you enjoy your free speach.

How do you know that they will nationalise all the gold mines? By the way even though I don't support nationalisation, what's wrong with it. During the apartheid era all the corporations belonged to the state. Have you forgotten allready? Let me refresh your mind: Sasol, The steelcompanies like Arcelor, telkom south Africa was a state company. Why was it ok during the apartheid era, but not ok now. Bythe way some of the best manage companies in the wolrd are state owned. Let me name a few for you: Saudi Aramco, best managed oil company in the wolrd. Sonangol also considered one of the most efficient and best managed oil corporation in the wolrd.
Dubai wolrd . That's right that company that manages the largest sea ports in the wolrd is the best seaport managing company in the wolrd and guest what Dubai is not a communist country, neither is Saudi Arabia or Angola for that matter. Airfrance/KLM, Emiraty Airways are some of the best managed airliners in the wolrd and their all government owned.
I think either you believe to much in to that fear mongering or you yourself are engaged in that fear mongering, or am I wrong for thinking like that.

im not against public compagnies, but im against nationalising compagnies.

that make the investors afraid of investing in the country, but anyway i respect your view and i hope your right cause a strong south africa is a strong africa.

let's hope your right, but personally since south africa start investing in a communiste and terrorist in my area i knew that the leadership had changed in south africa, and it's conferming day after day that south africa is going for different stil of governing, i was hoping that south africa will play a roal of a leader and help solve problems not taking sides.

:lol: :lol: This may come as a surprise to you, but I agree with most of what you say on here.
First I'm not a bitter man. Far from it. I understand that you misunderstand me, but that's ok.

Its for me very strange how people like jules3c can linger so long on the past. The past is the past and we as people should learn from past mistake and try our best not to make the same mistake twice.

I don't linger on the past. What I don't accept is the rewriting of history. Also one must be able to agree to disagree. Yes we should learn from our past mistake and make things better then before.

From nsub-guy:
But you jules, you... I realy do feel sorry for you, cause you clearly are a very bitter man that cannot forgive and move one with your life.
All your anger is coming out on this forum toward people who is not black in your eyes.
I actually have to laugh because clearly you have a wrong impression about me. My beef with the well to do in south Africa is not who they are but what they are doing. Forget about the past for a momemt, but the constant whining of how bad the ANC is and how good they are. Wel OK then, have any of these liberal wealthy people in south Africa build a hospital for the poor, or better yet help build some schools for the children of South Africa?


WHY DONT YOU JUST LET IT GO AND MOVE ON.
Oh dear to be honest I'm not angry at anybody.

From nsub-guy:
But then your next responce would be, whu dont all of yo'll white people go back to where you come from and leave us black in our counrty.

Didn't President Zuma said that the afrikaners are real South-Africans? Who am I to say otherwise. Besides nobody in their right mind really mean that the white south africans aren't south africans. I think you maybe confusing white south africans beating up the poor blacks in the past and the poor black's reaction to mean that white south africans aren't really south africans.
What I would like to see is a concerted efford from the white South-Africans who have so much capability, know how and ability not to forget the finances to help build the country instead of whining that you have lost the political power. In liberal America it took 50 years to get a black elected president, but you want to get elected president from day one.common.

Well, its time you should smell that coffee, JULES3C, whites, indian, coloureds, asians, we all are going know where, cause guess what, we are all south africans.

Oh my brother I smelt that coffee long before you smelt it. We have to work together to built a peacefull and prosperous South Africa for all South Africans.

WOW!!! I am surprised at your answer. I must say, I expected something wayyy nastier.

Now Jules, if you raise an opinion, try to keep it more subtle so that you don’t offend other people in here. It’s called respect.

In 2001, the bid was opened for construction of Gautrain, that was way before the April 2004 announcement by Sepp Blatter that SA was gonna be the host of 2010 FIFA World Cup. Yes, the winning on the bid accelerated the process which saw the leg between Sandton and O.R Tambo operating a couple of days before the world. It was said that if Gautrain was not ready by the start of the World Cup then busses will be used to transport visitors from the airport to the likes of Sandton.



Roads were built, parks were "constructed", trees were planted, stadiums were upgraded etc in townships and other poor areas. In the process, people got employed and managed to feed their families during the process and also gain in terms of skilling. You can never write off the befits of teh World Cup even though I belive that the same people could have befitted more than what they have.




Is that wrong?




Like Rea Vaya, People Mover, My Citi and other projects, the poor will benefit one way or another. Construction taking place around Gautrain is creating jobs for the poor and adding to their skill base. With retail coming to most stations, more jobs will be offered. World Cup and Gautrain was never a waiste of money, benefits are there for you all to see but having to turn a blind eye will leave you wondering on how the poor benefitted.

That is still during the bid process. Would have been interesting to see if it would have gone through if South Africa never ran a bid, of course thats all hypothetical, that said a big part of it was to run in time for the WC.

That's not sustainable, part time jobs doesn't create a middle class, it gives a few years (at best) of steady income, what happens after the WC? We've seen a serious hangover feeling in the country after the tournament. Providing construction jobs is a very weak argument. I'm talking about investment in housing, healthcare and education those are long term benefits, or providing aid to an industry that keeps people employed long term.

For a poor countries where millions lack housing, go hungry or can't find a job flashy projects to show off for foreigners should not be prioritized with public funds.

^^Budgets for health/education and social housing are increasing at tremendous rates in SA, delivery is also improving as governance gets better. Budget for engineering and artisan training is being prioritised, go to treasury.gov.za to see the actual figures, hell we do a foward-looking budget for the next 3-years, in fact our budget process is acknowledged as the best in the world- look it up, I'm not lying...

However SA knows that it cannot neglect to invest in economic infrastructure because not only does it create medium term construction jobs it also creates permanent jobs in the maintanence and operations of infrasttructure.

Infrastructure is the basis for unlocking private sector investments for example:


Property development around Gautrain stations is booming, SA will soon get modern soaring glass skyscrapers as a result
Retail oppoprunities, all these new shops/malls/glass skyscrapers need receptionists/cleaners/admin/proffesionals to man = decent jos
Massive investment in steel fabrication tech to provide the steel work for all these constructions = advanced technical jobs
transport/logistics is the key to reducing cost of business, that is why despite the high incomes of South Africans (relatively) the cost of living here is quite reasonable. Another eg, in the US things are cheap (relatively) b'cos their logistics infrastructure is top-notch (alothough the states seems to be ruled by a bunch of wankers who've forgotten this central tenet of good economic stewadship, hence I believe at current trends if the US doesn't catch a wake-up, SA will have better infrastructure within 10 years! I know its a fetch but I truly believe it)

That is still during the bid process. Would have been interesting to see if it would have gone through if South Africa never ran a bid, of course thats all hypothetical, that said a big part of it was to run in time for the WC.
I have never seen someone trying so hard to convince hmself...but it's okay...

That's not sustainable, part time jobs doesn't create a middle class, it gives a few years (at best) of steady income, what happens after the WC? We've seen a serious hangover feeling in the country after the tournament. Providing construction jobs is a very weak argument. I'm talking about investment in housing, healthcare and education those are long term benefits, or providing aid to an industry that keeps people employed long term.

You have chosen to recognise the fact that part time jobs uplift one's skill. Yes jobs have been shared after the World Cup but those who have gained skills there can be used for other construction projects like the proposed high speed train between Joburg and Durban, Medupi and Kusile Power Station, continued upgrading of roads, building of schools etc.

Take some time and read through the following links and make sure that you really understand whatever is wrriten

- http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/social_development/sexwale_speeds_up_housing_delivery.html

- http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-09-27-billions-to-be-spent-on-upgrade-of-hospitals

- http://www.pmg.org.za/briefing/20100323-budget-speech-basic-education


For a poor countries where millions lack housing, go hungry or can't find a job flashy projects to show off for foreigners should not be prioritized with public funds.
:ohno:

^^Not only that Govt is embarking on a massive drive to reduce red-tape for all firms, smal ones in particular. Tax reforms, we're getting a new company act, we're reforming our industrial financing corporations, we're re-directing money at R&D.

SA's economy slowed because of recession, although we've already made back all the losses suffered from recession, i.e. our ecomy is the largest it has ever been, net wealth is at its highest. Before the recession we were growing at more than 5%. We don't want business as usual, we're putting measures in place to get on a new growth path that will lead to even more jobs created and to reduce our very high inequality - I have no doubt we will achieve it, South Africans never fail when it's crunch time and it helps that our govt is not broke at all...

^^Heita Pulz, sharp fedeh? Please school these armchair critics sitting wwherever they are and criticising SA,


I know our govt is not perfect but SA is not just the ANC, SA has many brilliant people who want to improve their lot and that of the country, Pule himself has worked tirelessly to puch the revitalisation of Joburg CBD. That's the kind of ppl who populate our land. Our greatest asset is not our physical beauty, infrastructure, minerals it's the brilliant people we have, as we say in SA, n boer maak n plan

Alex and Dahkla you guys are really educated, you got PHD's (Player Hating Degrees/ Pull-Him-Down syndrome) stop the hating bro's, its the leading cause of premature death in ppl.

^^Heita Pulz, sharp fedeh? Please school these armchair critics sitting wwherever they are and criticising SA,


I know our govt is not perfect but SA is not just the ANC, SA has many brilliant people who want to improve their lot and that of the country, Pule himself has worked tirelessly to puch the revitalisation of Joburg CBD. That's the kind of ppl who populate our land. Our greatest asset is not our physical beauty, infrastructure, minerals it's the brilliant people we have, as we say in SA, n boer maak n plan

Alex and Dahkla you guys are really educated, you got PHD's (Player Hating Degrees/ Pull-Him-Down syndrome) stop the hating bro's, its the leading cause of premature death in ppl.

It's only 1 person who pretending to be Mr Know-it-all and trying by all means to discreting us as a country. Our government has done so many worngs like it did the good and a fair and constructive critisism is welcomed not just jaw-excersizing by talking nonsense.

Thanks buddy, one is trying but I get pissed when the city officials never bother to even acknowledge what plenty of SA SSC forumers have done for the city. Well, I won't stop pumping ideas but would like to be recognised for the job done.

^^You've inspired me not to be just a speculator but to try and geet involved, count me in going forward when there's a SSC meet or you need foot-soldiers for the battles ahead. Put me in coach!!

lol, will do so.

How many times do you have to explain that the Gautrain pre-dated the world cup?

It was not linked at all - that is why they had to put in such an effort to get the very first phase ready for the influx of WC visitors (airport-cbd link - not an unreasonable thing to have a train linking the busiest airport in Africa to the CBD of Africa's biggest economic hub).

You know, you can bang on about how much the govt should be doing for the poorest of the poor, but the economy still needs to grow.
And especially in tough economic times, you need massive infrastructure projects to provide employment, which all the transport projects, including the Gautrain, did.

We also have new airports, new ports for shipping, huge road and rail improvemnent projects, new power stations etc that are ongoing and providing employment, attracting investment.

There is always more to do, the poor always get the crumbs it seems, but building the economy and dropping the unemployment rate is probably the single biggest tool (along with education), to alleviating poverty.

there is no hatred to south african and all african have all the respect to mandela and great people of south africa.

but when the ANC start supporting dead lock of north africa and specially in the maghreb by suporting the probleme there and help moroccan independist openly with cuba ... after the race for the world cup, i think i have the right to critisize and fairly the new politics of the ANC that support communist all over the world.

peace dude.

Many left . What was the result?

Few blacks got out of the hole, the majority is still there ,Elite Status quo continues to climb the ladder.




most blacks in south africa are not in poverty,but there is a large number that still lives in poverty.poverty has gone down and it will happen more so has the years go by. maybe not has fast has we like but it will happen if there is peace in the country.

I only make the comparison because you said that unemployment is due to the uneducated masses. Well in Brazil, another middle income country has terrible education and masses of functionally illiterate people (many in my family) yet unemployment is 1/5 of South Africa's. In 2003 it stood at 14% today it's under 6%.

South Africa in order to effectively reduce poverty, unemployment and inequality needs to grow at least 6%, it's currently growing half the rate.

population growth rates was higher in the 90's that's why the anc said they need a 6% growth rate when the population was growing at 2.5% a year.

a 6% growth rate would really help but 5% was good,because population growth has slowed down.still growing but slower

second before the world crisis unemployment was 23%. it was going down. it maybe still around there.
I think growth for south africa this year will be around 4% but we will not really know until 2011 so don't talk so fast.

another african thread talking about us then bashing us...what a surprise

another african thread talking about us then bashing us...what a surprise

:lol: :lol: :lol:
It doesn't matter what Africa does and south africa in particular. Somebody will always find something bad to say about Africa. Don't give up, keep on marching forward. Africa's time is due. They're bashing her while they're saying they don't.

WOW!!! I am surprised at your answer. I must say, I expected something wayyy nastier.

Now Jules, if you raise an opinion, try to keep it more subtle so that you don’t offend other people in here. It’s called respect.

I take your advice to heart. However I'm not naturally a diplomat. reason why I'm not a diplomat I gues.So Let's have a beer. I like heineken and or parbo bier. what do you like? Amstel lite?

most blacks in south africa are not in poverty,but there is a large number that still lives in poverty.poverty has gone down and it will happen more so has the years go by. maybe not has fast has we like but it will happen if there is peace in the country.

Try explaining that to the rest of the wolrd. Good luck.

most blacks in south africa are not in poverty,but there is a large number that still lives in poverty.poverty has gone down and it will happen more so has the years go by. maybe not has fast has we like but it will happen if there is peace in the country.

42.9% of the South African population as of 2009 live on less than $2 a day. That's taking the population as a whole. If you only took blacks which are poorer than the national average that figure would be near 50%. This is just on $2 a day. Is someone making $2.50 part of the middle class now?

population growth rates was higher in the 90's that's why the anc said they need a 6% growth rate when the population was growing at 2.5% a year.

a 6% growth rate would really help but 5% was good,because population growth has slowed down.still growing but slower

second before the world crisis unemployment was 23%. it was going down. it maybe still around there.
I think growth for south africa this year will be around 4% but we will not really know until 2011 so don't talk so fast.

5% is not good enough, because that won't create enough jobs to dent unemployment which affects one in four and underemployment which affects 40% of the population. It would have to be quality growth where the bottom 20% enjoy larger income gains than the top 10% because of the huge inequality which hasn't been tackled even when the economy was growing at over 5%.

In terms of growth this year it's been trimmed down as the year progresses. IMF has pushed it's estimation down to 3% for 2010 and 3.5% for 2011, that is not enough simple as that. Especially when you decline 1.8% the year before and are stagnant in 2008. Where's the big bounce?

^^What do you mean we were stagnant in 2008, GDP growth in 2008 was 3.8% and this was during the year SA had the electricity crisis. Thus if we contracted by 1.8% in 2009 and we're on course to grow by 3% this year it means the economy will be 1.2% larger than it was in the 2008 peak. We've already recouped all our losses. It's not a spectacular recovery but one nonetheless.

Interest rates are at an all time low, disoposable income is at an all time high, retail,consumer, business confidence are all back, the economy will accelerate during 2011, I predict 4% plus growth for 2011...

Correct.
And as I pointed out before, the ongoing infrastructure investment is providing employment and impetus. Tourism and our global signature has absolutely improved post-world cup.
The black middle class is growing all the time, paying tax and spending their money - this is a very positive development.

^^The problem is that many ppl (particularly foreigners and some Saffers) are attached to the notion of SA as a nation with intractible social problems that will eventually collapse it, at first it was evil Apartheid/Boere but Madiba and De Klerk sat down and hammered out a solution. It was not perfect but is saved our country from certain collapse.
Now the myth is that of seething and poor underclass that we're allegedly ignoring, yet SA has the largest welfare state in the developing world, it has the largest social housing delivery programme after China, it has the largest infrastructure spending in Africa, it spends the most money on Health and Education (outcomes are wack but that's because we tried to get fancy and ignored basics)

Alex Roney; don't worry about SA mate, we're good. We will overcome our present challenges like we've always done because we're a nation of achievers not talkers (except for me)

^^What do you mean we were stagnant in 2008, GDP growth in 2008 was 3.8% and this was during the year SA had the electricity crisis. Thus if we contracted by 1.8% in 2009 and we're on course to grow by 3% this year it means the economy will be 1.2% larger than it was in the 2008 peak. We've already recouped all our losses. It's not a spectacular recovery but one nonetheless.

Interest rates are at an all time low, disoposable income is at an all time high, retail,consumer, business confidence are all back, the economy will accelerate during 2011, I predict 4% plus growth for 2011...

Sorry your right I got Turkey confused who grew less than 1% in 2008.

That's not enough though, growing 3-4% annually? Your going to create jobs with that? Dent inequality? When South Africa was growing at 5% inequality hardly moved, it grew throughout the 90's and early in the 21st century.

Interest rates are low to spur economic growth, in places like U.S and Japan interest rates are at 0% and the economy is hardly moving.

I agree actually. SA is not in a good way. I think the whole BRICS thing is stupid anyway but I really dont they should have been part of it. SA really needs to grow at 5% MINIMUM,but ideally 6-7%. There are countries in Africa with MUCH smaller GDP per capitas and poorer infrastructure but have a lower poverty rate than SA....like Kenya. I find that very disturbing.

^^The problem is that many ppl (particularly foreigners and some Saffers) are attached to the notion of SA as a nation with intractible social problems that will eventually collapse it, at first it was evil Apartheid/Boere but Madiba and De Klerk sat down and hammered out a solution. It was not perfect but is saved our country from certain collapse.
Now the myth is that of seething and poor underclass that we're allegedly ignoring, yet SA has the largest welfare state in the developing world, it has the largest social housing delivery programme after China, it has the largest infrastructure spending in Africa, it spends the most money on Health and Education (outcomes are wack but that's because we tried to get fancy and ignored basics)

Alex Roney; don't worry about SA mate, we're good. We will overcome our present challenges like we've always done because we're a nation of achievers not talkers (except for me)

+1. Exactly.
Let the haters hate, the bigots,begotten and the whinos rhinos.
South Africa will pull ahead and leave the rest behind.

42.9% of the South African population as of 2009 live on less than $2 a day. That's taking the population as a whole. If you only took blacks which are poorer than the national average that figure would be near 50%. This is just on $2 a day. Is someone making $2.50 part of the middle class now?

the population living in poverty is about 20%,for blacks it's 30%.i only go to the source when it comes to poverty,and population growth rates etc... etc...


white poverty is about 12 to 14%,so overalll if you include everyone the poverty rate is about 20% in south africa.

kept in mind lower income does not mean poor.lower income could be working class poor or just working class.anyway many folks got into the middle class in the 90's and 2000's.

poverty overall in the the early 90's was about 50 to 60%,now it's about 20%.

poverty for blacks was about 60 to 70% i think now it's about 30%.

the anc made great progress,despite the problems.call them up the south african embassy in new york city,they have the stats.unless you are saying they are making it up,because i rather believe them then a anti african person who know body knows here.




anyway the imf gets it wrong too.we will see how high the growth rate is next year.



just come out and say your anti african.

Correct.
And as I pointed out before, the ongoing infrastructure investment is providing employment and impetus. Tourism and our global signature has absolutely improved post-world cup.
The black middle class is growing all the time, paying tax and spending their money - this is a very positive development.
edit-
that's what i kept telling the bigots.it's the same mindset,and any improvments they want to get on the negative and out dated sources.or made up ones.i tend to be more pan-african so nigeria making it is africa making it,south africa making it, africa is making it .i want all african nations to rise.

Statistical releases from the South African Government.

Statistics South Africa - Home

http://www.statssa.gov.za/

________________-
Home - South Africa - The Good News

Dec 9, 2010 ... South Africa's premier good news website, highlighting the progress of a remarkable nation.

http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/

the population living in poverty is about 20%,for blacks it's 30%.i only go to the source when it comes to poverty,and population growth rates etc... etc...

anyway the imf gets it wrong too.we will see how high the growth rate is next year.



just come out and say your anti african.

All you ever do is put posts saying "these countries are not poor their poverty rates are so and so". You base it on national poverty statistics which are extremely stringent on who they consider poor. I don't care where you live, if you make $60 a month you are poor. One in four South Africans make less than $1.25 a day, so instead of labels look at the facts.

From the United Nations
http://origin-hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/103.html
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/102.html

the point is i will stick to the 20% poverty fig.
thank you.

Alex Roney, you are big on this $1.25 per day figure, and you seem to like some stats, but not others, which is usual for someone desperately banging away to try and prove their own point of view.

Those stats, by the way, also ignore South Africa's second economy - and it is recognised as that, a 2nd economy beyond the grasp (at the moment) of the taxman. That is the guys selling beaded animals at traffic lights, of doing gardening or handyman work, or casual chars, or selling fruit at railway stations etc etc.

These people, and there are plenty of them, make a living, often quite a decent living. Rates now for gardeners, chars and general help are between R100 and R150 a day, here in CT anyway.
This is tax free. It always includes food, as in Breakfast and lunch, and usual some extras.
These people are lumped together in this '$1.25' per day figure, because its cash in hand, casual work that is not part of the stats.

And working conditions are improving all the time, as is that wage, which goes up and up each year.
Things are improving for everyone in SA, and yes, the rich always get richer, and quicker, than the rest, but it is working, believe me, I see it every day.

I was overseas for years, reading the stats and listening to all the bad news about SA. Now I am home and I can see with my own eyes the INCREDIBLE progress being made here in this remarkable country.

Alex Roney, you are big on this $1.25 per day figure, and you seem to like some stats, but not others, which is usual for someone desperately banging away to try and prove their own point of view.

Those stats, by the way, also ignore South Africa's second economy - and it is recognised as that, a 2nd economy beyond the grasp (at the moment) of the taxman. That is the guys selling beaded animals at traffic lights, of doing gardening or handyman work, or casual chars, or selling fruit at railway stations etc etc.

These people, and there are plenty of them, make a living, often quite a decent living. Rates now for gardeners, chars and general help are between R100 and R150 a day, here in CT anyway.
This is tax free. It always includes food, as in Breakfast and lunch, and usual some extras.
These people are lumped together in this '$1.25' per day figure, because its cash in hand, casual work that is not part of the stats.

And working conditions are improving all the time, as is that wage, which goes up and up each year.
Things are improving for everyone in SA, and yes, the rich always get richer, and quicker, than the rest, but it is working, believe me, I see it every day.

I was overseas for years, reading the stats and listening to all the bad news about SA. Now I am home and I can see with my own eyes the INCREDIBLE progress being made here in this remarkable country.

The same can be said about you. :)

Btw what you say is totally false the vast majority of people who make up the underclass and earn the few dollars a day are part of the informal economy. The vast majority of those in the middle and upper classes get proper steady wages. Their are no doubt that their are small vendors who do well and avoid paying taxes are not classified as poor, but you make the false assumption that these make the majority of workers in the informal economy.

The stats are not based on lumping people, it's based on studies by large organizations like the World Bank who study the consumer power of individuals through surveys. They don't invent the numbers by simply tying in those in the informal economy, even so the numbers don't tie up since roughly 30% of the labor force is in the informal labor market. If it was simply a case of "lumping" workers how come Brazil has "only" 12.7% of it's population living on less than $2 a day but a much higher informal labor market (due to high taxes) compared to South Africa?

Sure South Africa is improving in some regards but you haven't at all put up a serious case that the three fundamentals of poverty, employment and inequality are being tackled. Again without trying to sound like a broken record with meagre growth for the next few years of 3% or so how can you generate enough jobs to take on 25% unemployment? The rich have been getting richer in South Africa for 200 years, when's the point where wages for the bottom 20% rise faster than those at the top 10%? Inequality isn't really going down, it rose for 11 years and hasn't made much movement since. All this during a supposed economic boom, with slower growth this is now supposed to change? Poverty has declined over the years (I'm sure it rose in the last 2 years though) but it's not at a fast enough pace and given South Africa's high poverty rates (given it's middle income status) at this rate how long will it take before we see a large social transformation?

Alex Roney, you are big on this $1.25 per day figure, and you seem to like some stats, but not others, which is usual for someone desperately banging away to try and prove their own point of view.

Those stats, by the way, also ignore South Africa's second economy - and it is recognised as that, a 2nd economy beyond the grasp (at the moment) of the taxman. That is the guys selling beaded animals at traffic lights, of doing gardening or handyman work, or casual chars, or selling fruit at railway stations etc etc.

These people, and there are plenty of them, make a living, often quite a decent living. Rates now for gardeners, chars and general help are between R100 and R150 a day, here in CT anyway.
This is tax free. It always includes food, as in Breakfast and lunch, and usual some extras.
These people are lumped together in this '$1.25' per day figure, because its cash in hand, casual work that is not part of the stats.

And working conditions are improving all the time, as is that wage, which goes up and up each year.
Things are improving for everyone in SA, and yes, the rich always get richer, and quicker, than the rest, but it is working, believe me, I see it every day.

I was overseas for years, reading the stats and listening to all the bad news about SA. Now I am home and I can see with my own eyes the INCREDIBLE progress being made here in this remarkable country.

It won't matter what type of proof you have, Alex will never agree with you.
The only time he will agree with you is if you say something bad about South Africa. Like for example if you would say that the poor are getting poorer, then he might even send you a bottle of champaign. Don't dare try to mention anything positive about South Africa, because you will have ruined his whole day.

It won't matter what type of proof you have, Alex will never agree with you.
The only time he will agree with you is if you say something bad about South Africa. Like for example if you would say that the poor are getting poorer, then he might even send you a bottle of champaign. Don't dare try to mention anything positive about South Africa, because you will have ruined his whole day.

No overall poverty has fallen since 1995. But it's probably seen an uptick in the last two years.

I can't believe this debate has spanned ten pages. A little too much over a news article that at most would be between useless and "somewhat" important. Don't you think?

Who ever said that the vast mijority of south africans live under $1.25 a day, needs a reality cheack. I mean, seriously, who can live on R7 a day? YOu cant even buya loaf of bread with R7 and the vast mijority of south africans are eating almost every day bread.

^^Let them be, it fits in their nice world-view of SA as a poverty stricken country...
We will just continue out-spending them in infrastructure, out-competing them in global markets and basically leaving them in the dust...

Who ever said that the vast mijority of south africans live under $1.25 a day, needs a reality cheack. I mean, seriously, who can live on R7 a day? YOu cant even buya loaf of bread with R7 and the vast mijority of south africans are eating almost every day bread.

:nuts: is that 1$ for a loaf of bread ???

:nuts: is that 1$ for a loaf of bread ???

$1 +- 6.60 rand. around that figure.

$1 +- 6.60 rand. around that figure.
And that price is at Shoprite and other small bakeries...but in general the price of bread is more than R7.

Its a common misconception that the $1, $2 etc thing means simply that someone is earning that amount of money. Im so tired of explaining it on SSC. Thats not what its about!