Indonesia seen as biggest security threat: poll
August 25, 2004 - 11:05AM

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Australians regard Indonesia as the country's biggest security threat, a new study showed today.

The study of opinion polls on security issues showed Indonesia far outranked other regional nations for perceived threat.

The study released today by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute showed public perceptions of an overall security threat to the nation had declined steadily since the height of the Vietnam war, despite some bumps for the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the 1991 Gulf War and a major dip at the end of the Cold War.

It said fewer Australians now saw an external security threat than at any time in the past 30 years.

"However, to the extent that the public identifies a security threat to Australia, there is a greater consensus than ever before that the threat comes from one country: Indonesia," ASPI said.

"Notwithstanding improved bilateral relations particularly during the 1980s and 1990s, the public's concern about Indonesia has increased almost consistently since opinion polls first began to track it in the late 1960s."

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ASPI said the long term trend, combined with recent events, suggested there would be little change to that pattern in the future.

The study was conducted for ASPI by Australian National University professor of political science Ian McAllister who reviewed polls dating back to the late 1960s.

It quoted a 2001 survey which showed 31 per cent believed Indonesia would be very likely to pose a threat to Australia's security compared with just nine per cent for China, six per cent for Malaysia and five per cent for Japan.

The study showed public support for the defence force had grown steadily, with a 2003 survey revealing 82 per cent confidence in the organisation. Next closest was the ABC at 71 per cent confidence while federal parliament attracted only 40 per cent.

However that doesn't automatically translate as a belief that Australia can defend itself.

In a 2001 poll, just 20 per cent agreed Australia could defend itself while 80 per cent didn't. However, there is a belief that defence is getting better with 53 per cent in 2001 agreeing it was better than it was a decade earlier.

Public support for overseas operations varies. A 2001 survey showed the 1999 East Timor mission attracted more than 90 per cent community backing while 79 per cent said defence operations aimed at stopping asylum seekers were very important.

Sixty-eight per cent backed Australian involvement in the war on terror. But support for the 2003 Iraq war attracted majority (52 per cent) disapproval.

Professor McAllister said in general the public supported operations seen as providing security for Australia, which included East Timor and Afghanistan but not Iraq.

AAP

It's very stupid really, Australia spends 11x the amount on defense that Indonesia spends, infact I think the Australian defense budget is approximatly equal to that of the rest of SE Asia and Oceania combined. However it is true that Indonesia is seen as the biggest threat and hey the goverment needs to create some parinoia to create some more anti labor backlash and promote further increases in defense spending.

I can't believe that 5% of people thought Japan posed a threat to national security, my only guess is that there all world war 2 veterans who haven't realised just how different the world is.

Probably the biggest real threat to Australia is a war in Taiwan because under the ANZUS treaty we would be forced to intervene against China. It's a pity the ANZUS treaty still exsists with the situation in Taiwan it's no longer in Australia's national interests and I can't blaim the foreign minister for trying to reasure the Chinese - China represents a massivly important future trade partner for Australia.

It's very stupid really, Australia spends 11x the amount on defense that Indonesia spends, infact I think the Australian defense budget is approximatly equal to that of the rest of SE Asia and Oceania combined. However it is true that Indonesia is seen as the biggest threat and hey the goverment needs to create some parinoia to create some more anti labor backlash and promote further increases in defense spending.

I can't believe that 5% of people thought Japan posed a threat to national security, my only guess is that there all world war 2 veterans who haven't realised just how different the world is.

Probably the biggest real threat to Australia is a war in Taiwan because under the ANZUS treaty we would be forced to intervene against China. It's a pity the ANZUS treaty still exsists with the situation in Taiwan it's no longer in Australia's national interests and I can't blaim the foreign minister for trying to reasure the Chinese - China represents a massivly important future trade partner for Australia.

Spot on, Jeeeb.

About 5 years ago when the East Timor debacle was at its height, people started talking about the threat Indonesia possessed to Australia. My neighbour even asked me if there's a possibility of Indonesia invading Australia. My response was that simply, Indonesia lacks the capacity to secure its own borders and suppress separatist movements, let alone invade another country!

Wah .... gue benci banget ma ni negara ....
kalo mau kita embargo aja dia biar kapok ....
jangan kasih duit dari sekolah di Oz ... sekolah ke sg, us , ca aja ...

Dulu .. nyuruh2 ..... ambil timor timur ...
sekarang .... Nyap Nyap ... biar Tim tim merdeka ....

Di Bali ngirim Polisi seenaknya ....

di jakarta bikin kantor intelligent ....

TAHUUU NGGAAAKKKK ..... SEKARANG AUSTRALIA LAGI NGERENCANAAIN >.. untuk melakukan hal yang sama dengan Timtim .... terhadap PAPUA ....

PAPUA MO DIPISAHKAN >>>>>>> YEP .... YOU READ IT RIGHT .....

ADA INDIKASI INTELLIGENT KE ARAH SITU .....



Makanya ... ayo dong ... kita tumbuh berkembang dengan cepat di segala bidang .... seperti CINA .....

Biar gak dikentutin terus ama negara "SOMBONG" ini .....
biar punya PRIDE ....

Biar Bangga .......

As I said

" Aku Mac Gyver, dan Aku bangga jadi orang Indonesia "

gua ngerti perasaan lo, tapi subjectnya jangan pake bahasa inggris donk, kan kita nggak mau bikin musuh di forum ini :)
tapi trus terang menurut gua rasanya nggak mungkin kalo aus mau dukung papua merdeka soalnya kalo indo pecah aus repot juga.. kalo region nggak stabil yang rugi aus sendiri..

Mac

Australia kirim polisi ke Bali karena korban yang paling banyak adalah dari Australia.

I second Alvin opinion, not that i am pro any country. Kalau Australia dan Amerika tidak bantu Indonesia di perang melawan terrorist, We will lose our investment, tourist dan yang penting safety.

Memang mereka deputy sherrif di asean dan i couldnt agree more with you mac kalau misalnya itu tidak benar. Tapi kalau Australia kita embargo, Bali dan industry tourism kita akan hancur. Kasian kan mereka yang tergantung with tourist?

The right title for your respond mac, its not go to hell australia, but go to hell Howard :D

Percaya sama saya Mac, australian people are very nice. especially in Melbourne :D


cheers

Well IMO, Howard is like politician everywhere in the world, who sometime need to 'perform' like a dancer on the stage. He needs it to keep his popularity among people especially when election time is coming near. Or perhaps this true and it's his policy to position Australia as deputy of US here in Asia (which some countries already show disagreement).

Off course, this irritates Indonesian. How come a country that's trying to survive, ever thinks of invading other country? Especially a country like Australia who has strong tie with Europe? I just wish that Australian people are mature enough to judge.

But still it's only my opinion and sorry for Australians who happen to read my post. No hard feeling, OK Mate? ;)

Mac...please be more sensitive when talking about other nations. SSC does not tolerate inappropriate comments against other nations. I know that you posted it in Bahasa Indonesia so that others cannot understand, but still keep it clean, ok?:)

And they also made mistake, Indonesia with Sukarno is maybe a threat, because sukarno is a war junkie, Well maybe Suharto got east timor, but who asked Indonesia to do that? There was a choice between Brunei and East timor at that time...Indonesia choosed East timor with the full support of the Yanks....


And Australia should consider Indonesia as their friend..not enemy.

cheers

It is extremely relieving that Australia is in a treaty to provide support to their democratic ally Taiwan in the threat of a tyrannical communist Chinese invasion. I don't understand why Australians feel this way about Indonesia, though.

Actually I agree with Macgyver , I love the country where I was born but I grew up in the Netherlands. What a really threat is this that imo Australia wants a downfall of the Unitary Republic of Indonesia . Mereka pasti pilih sayap OPM . RMS dan GAM. but that is what I think. Satu Nusa Satu Bangsa Satu Bahasa = Republik Indonesia.

Yamauchi, I think the threat perception has developed in Australia over a period of years, since World War II when the Japanese entered Australia from Indonesia, all through the instabilities of the 1960s, East Timor debacle and the recently terrorism. Its a bit sad actually. I think that Howard has over-compromised Australia's relations with its Asian neighbours in favor of closer ties with the US and Europe. Plus, the media hasn't been too supportive as well. These days, Indonesia-related news that gets headline treatment (or even a mention) in leading newspapers (e.g. Sydney Morning Herald) concern terrorism e.g. bali bombing, or deliberately designed to remind the public of Indonesia's bad human rights record. In contrast, the papers tend to overlook the incredible transition towards democracy, civil society, relative stability (and highly successful elections!) etc. that Indonesia has achieved in the last 5 years...

Jag.it.cmd: I can't agree with your comments. I actually think that its in australia's best interests that Indonesia remains united. The last thing Australia would want is a break up of its giant neighbour which will create pressure for it to send its already over-stretched troops for peacekeeping and spark another recession in the ASEAN economy.

Ivy Susanti, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta

Australian Ambassador to Indonesia David Ritchie questioned a defense think-tank report released in Canberra on Wednesday, which said Australians believed Indonesia poses the greatest threat to their national security.

A study of opinion polls on security issues conducted by the independent Australian Strategic Policy Institute -- a strategic and defense think-tank -- showed that Indonesia was perceived as a far greater threat than other countries in the region.

"I think neither of those things are actually true," Ritchie told a gathering of editors and business executives in Jakarta on Wednesday.

He said the report indicated misperceptions among Australians about Indonesia but that these misunderstandings existed in both countries. "There is a lack of knowledge on both sides on the nature of both the countries," Ritchie said.

There were some Australians who had little or no knowledge about the nature of Islam in Indonesia, the country's culture or its political system, Ritchie said. There were also Indonesians who did not understand the nature of Australian society, he said.

However, despite this both Indonesians and Australians had joined together to fight terrorism, he said.

Ritchie said Australians had sympathized with Indonesians -- especially the Balinese -- after the Bali bombing in October 2002, instead of strongly criticizing the Indonesian government, which they believed could have done something to prevent terror attacks.

"That shows more than what a lot of the surveys show," said Ritchie, who has been serving in Jakarta for almost two years.

The members of the al-Qaeda affiliated Jamaah Islamiyah group -- of mostly Indonesians -- were blamed for the bombings that killed 202 people, including 88 Australians, on Bali.

The institute surveyed opinion polls on defense issues dating back to the 1960s and found Australians now saw less chance of a foreign security threat than at any time during the past 30 years.

It cited a 2001 survey showing that 31 percent of Australians believed Indonesia would very likely to pose a threat to Australia's security, compared with 9 percent for China, 6 percent for Malaysia and 5 percent for Japan, AP reported.

"However, to the extent that the public identifies a security threat to Australia, there is a greater consensus than ever before that the threat comes from one country: Indonesia," it was quoted by AFP as saying.

"Notwithstanding improved bilateral relations particularly during the 1980s and 1990s, the public's concern about Indonesia has increased almost consistently since opinion polls first began to track it in the late 1960s," the report said.

"This worry does not seem to be justified, either by Jakarta's intent, or by the level of Indonesian military capability. In part the poll data reflects the recent experience of instability in East Timor (in 1999)."

The report also attempted to gauge Australian attitudes toward casualties in major military operations.

It found the public would accept unlimited casualties if the military were directly protecting Australia from external threat. But the tolerance for fatalities declined markedly for lesser operations against drug dealers, human traffickers, in peacekeeping operations or when supporting the United Nations.

About one-third of Australians were not ready to accept any casualties at all in these operations, the report found.

The institute was established by the Australian government.

Actually, what Military threat Indonesia can posed to Australia?

TNI-AU = doesnt have the capability to reach even the coastline of australia. (no AWACS, Tanker airplane, etc)

TNI-AL = Yes Indonesia have 2 subs plus 2 more subs coming but Australia already have 5 collins sub (state of the art sub), Indonesia bought 5 LPD but Australia will buy LHD.

So, i dont see any threat coming from TNI to Australia. One should consider is when China in war with taiwan or maybe asean in the future.

gua ngerti perasaan lo, tapi subjectnya jangan pake bahasa inggris donk, kan kita nggak mau bikin musuh di forum ini :)
tapi trus terang menurut gua rasanya nggak mungkin kalo aus mau dukung papua merdeka soalnya kalo indo pecah aus repot juga.. kalo region nggak stabil yang rugi aus sendiri..

Alvin ... Strateginya .... Emang memecah belah Indonesia ....
Emang udah dari dulu di doktrinnya ostrali itu .... " Ancaman Dari Utara " ....
dan Parahnya dia melihat Indonesia sebagai Ancaman .... bukannya dianggap sebagai ..... pertahanan .......

Kalo dianggap sebagai pertahanan ..... Australia akan membuat negara Indonesia menjadi Kuat .... dan Bekerja sama ........

Saat ini anggapannya Indonesia masih yg sebagai ........ ANCAMAN ....

Mac

Australia kirim polisi ke Bali karena korban yang paling banyak adalah dari Australia.

I second Alvin opinion, not that i am pro any country. Kalau Australia dan Amerika tidak bantu Indonesia di perang melawan terrorist, We will lose our investment, tourist dan yang penting safety.

Memang mereka deputy sherrif di asean dan i couldnt agree more with you mac kalau misalnya itu tidak benar. Tapi kalau Australia kita embargo, Bali dan industry tourism kita akan hancur. Kasian kan mereka yang tergantung with tourist?

The right title for your respond mac, its not go to hell australia, but go to hell Howard :D

Percaya sama saya Mac, australian people are very nice. especially in Melbourne :D


cheers


Betul Orang Australia are Nice ...... Setuju .... ( walaupun kadang masih racist he he he )

Betul WNA yang banyak jadi korban .... Setujua ..... Sent my condolences to innocent victims .....

Mereka fikir .. Bali is their own backyard ....

tau gak .. bahwa cara ngirim polisinya ke Bali itu kayak " Koboi" .....
atau Kayak " rambo " lah ...... tidak mengikuti kaidah pengiriman .. polisi dari suatu negara ke negara lain yang independence .......

makanya aku bilang " DIKENTUTIN " ama Australia ..... :-d

Udah gitu sekarang buka biro intelligent di jakarta .....

Go to Hell DEMONS .... :-p

Mac...please be more sensitive when talking about other nations. SSC does not tolerate inappropriate comments against other nations. I know that you posted it in Bahasa Indonesia so that others cannot understand, but still keep it clean, ok?:)

Ai Ai ... Sir Master CHief .... he he he

Sorry for being ......???

Maybe the feeling from just celebrating Indepence from Collonial ... sigh

Actually I agree with Macgyver , I love the country where I was born but I grew up in the Netherlands. What a really threat is this that imo Australia wants a downfall of the Unitary Republic of Indonesia . Mereka pasti pilih sayap OPM . RMS dan GAM. but that is what I think. Satu Nusa Satu Bangsa Satu Bahasa = Republik Indonesia.

Yep ... It is very true .....

I HAVE TO DEFEND the UNITY of INDONESIA ...
NKRI : Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia .....
who our foundings father have fought for centuries ........ ( bung karno, bung hatta, bung sjahrir ) ....

ANd It is TRUE ..... that Australia is Support in one way or another ..... OPM , RMS and GAM .....

and the Netherlands is no.1 Supporter of RMS and OPM .....

of you who don't believe me ..... ask someone who have access to Intelligent informations ...... ( maybe your father, mother, relatives, uncle ....... works for Intelligent beureu ) .....

As I said ....
My Name is Mac Gyver
I am proud of Being Indonesian ......

I will defend my country from ........ EVERY ATTEND TO BREAK UP NKRI

And they also made mistake, Indonesia with Sukarno is maybe a threat, because sukarno is a war junkie, Well maybe Suharto got east timor, but who asked Indonesia to do that? There was a choice between Brunei and East timor at that time...Indonesia choosed East timor with the full support of the Yanks....


And Australia should consider Indonesia as their friend..not enemy.

cheers

Correction ...

Soekarno will unite the True INdonesia ... Include .... Papua Barat, Timor-timur and North Kalimantan ( not Just Brunei )

Nah dulu waktu .... Ganyang Malaysia ..... kita itu udah siap merebut Kalimantan Utara .....
Tapi kamudian .... dinasihati untuk tidak menyerang .... karena .... Inggris bilang ... " Hadepin Gue dulu " ..... beda ama waktu mau ngerebut Papua dan Timor timur .... semua negara sahabat kita mensupport nya ....

he Macgyver , I ve just read in Dutch newspaper that Australia has acquired new cruise missiles. According to Mr. Hill ( Aussie Secretary of Defense ) is to defend Australia against aggression of North Korea. But according to me , those missiles has a 400km reach. and if Australia puts them in Darwin they can reach Indonesia. So I think Aus. wants to defend themselves against Indonesia.
Lets hope Indonesia under a new administration is capable to buy 3 squadrons of SU30/27 and new warships to defend the Unitary Republic of Indonesia.

he Macgyver , I ve just read in Dutch newspaper that Australia has acquired new cruise missiles. According to Mr. Hill ( Aussie Secretary of Defense ) is to defend Australia against aggression of North Korea. But according to me , those missiles has a 400km reach. and if Australia puts them in Darwin they can reach Indonesia. So I think Aus. wants to defend themselves against Indonesia.
Lets hope Indonesia under a new administration is capable to buy 3 squadrons of SU30/27 and new warships to defend the Unitary Republic of Indonesia.




Missiles 'no threat to neighbours'
By Cameron Stewart and Jamie Duncan
26aug04

AUSTRALIA'S purchase of sophisticated new long-range Stealth Cruise missiles would not spark an Asia-Pacific arms race, Defence Minister Robert Hill said today.

Senator Hill said Australia's Asia-Pacific neighbours would not be threatened by the $400 million program to buy long-range missiles for the F/A-18 Hornet and AP-3C Orion aircraft.

The GPS-guided Stealth Cruise missiles would boost the strike capability of the Hornet and Orion aircraft ahead of the planned early retirement of ageing F-111 fighter bombers in 2010.

Australia has narrowed its choice of suitable missiles to three, with a range of 250km to 400km.

The three missiles – two US designs and a European model – will be evaluated in the next year and the final choice will enter service by 2009.

Senator Hill said Australia's neighbours, including Indonesia, would not be surprised by the purchase because it had long been part of Australia's defence capability program.

"They expect us to continue to evolve our capability as new opportunities in terms of science and technology present, and the acquisition of stand-off missiles is a logical step in that direction," Senator Hill said.

"In the same way, as Indonesia and all our regional neighbours continue to build their capabilities, they expect Australia to do so."

There was no chance of a regional arms race following the purchase, Senator Hill said.

"No likelihood at all," he said.

The F-111 will be phased out in 2010, five years ahead of the introduction of the Joint Strike Fighter, to be built by US Manufacturer Lockheed Martin with input from several nations, including Australia.

The Hornet and Orion aircraft have a shorter flying range than the F-111, and are fitted with shorter-range missiles.

The missiles would improve safety for air crews, who could fire weapons from much further away, Senator Hill said.

The minister was speaking at the opening of a new defence aircraft stress-testing facility in Melbourne.

Opposition defence spokesman Kim Beazley said Labor was not opposed to the missile program, but said the issue would need to be carefully explained to Australia's neighbours.

"The problem with this government is that they never bother to go around the region and explain what they are doing," Mr Beazley told ABC radio today.

"And the unfortunate thing is that it brings this into play at a time when there's regional disagreement with our endorsing of national missile defences.

The Opposition did not favour the early retirement of the F-111 ahead of the Joint Strike Fighter's launch, Mr Beazley said.

"We have a dangerous air gap looming around about 2010," he said.

"The Labor Party is not convinced just yet that the F-111 needs to be taken out of service."

The move, approved this week by cabinet's National Security Committee, has the potential to irritate Australia's regional neighbours, which have short-range anti-ship missiles, but not the air-launched, long-range cruise missiles Australia will buy.

The multi-million-dollar decision to purchase long-range cruise missiles reflects an urgent need to beef-up the strikepower of the RAAF's 71 F/A-18 fighters ahead of the planned early retirement of the F-111s.

The Government hopes that the cruise missiles will help fill a looming gap in air capability between retirement of the F-111s around 2010 and the arrival of the new Joint Strike Fighter several years later.

Cabinet's decision allows the Government to choose from one of three cruise missile options, with the preferred missile being introduced into service between 2007 and 2009.

One option is the joint air-to-surface standoff missile (JASSM), a 2000-pound, precision strike cruise missile that has a range of 400km and flies autonomously to its target after launch.

Described by its maker, Lockheed Martin as a "stealth cruise missile" with a "kick-the-door-down" capability, the missiles cost around $544,000 each.

The two other options are the Swedish/German Taurus KEPD 350 cruise missile, with a range of 350km, and Boeing's precision strike-missile, known as SLAM-ER, with a range of 250km.

The RAAF is also hoping to fit the new missiles to the JSF when it enters service - a move that would help offset the smaller range and weapons payload of the new plane compared with that of the outgoing F-111.

But technical and design delays have plagued the new JSF, casting doubt on the Government's hopes that the yet-to-be-built plane will arrive in Australia in 2013. Many experts doubt the JSF will be delivered before 2015, increasing the importance of the new cruise missiles in helping maintain air superiority in the region.

Defence Minister Robert Hill is believed to have told cabinet that the new missiles are needed to ensure the survivability of aircraft and crew in the face of more sophisticated surface-to-air threats.

Moves to enhance Australia's air-strike capability in the past have frequently drawn criticism from regional neighbours.

Indonesia's military took years to forgive Australia after the Menzies government ordered the F-111 in 1963, with the specific instruction that it be capable of reaching Jakarta carrying nuclear weapons.

In 1993, when the Keating government ordered 15 extra F-111s to extend the life of the fleet without first telling Jakarta of its plan, the then Indonesian ambassador to Australia said the move would raise doubts about Australia's commitment to closer defence ties with its neighbours.

http://www.thesundaymail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,10570614%255E421,00.html

AUSTRALIA'S purchase of sophisticated new long-range Stealth Cruise missiles would not spark an Asia-Pacific arms race, Defence Minister Robert Hill said today.

Senator Hill said Australia's Asia-Pacific neighbours would not be threatened by the $400 million program to buy long-range missiles for the F/A-18 Hornet and AP-3C Orion aircraft.


On what basis Mr.Hill assumed this would not spark arm race in AsPac?
Don't he think that in this case Indonesia is more on the posistion 'being threatened'?


Indonesia's military took years to forgive Australia after the Menzies government ordered the F-111 in 1963, with the specific instruction that it be capable of reaching Jakarta carrying nuclear weapons.

...

In 1993, when the Keating government ordered 15 extra F-111s to extend the life of the fleet without first telling Jakarta of its plan, the then Indonesian ambassador to Australia said the move would raise doubts about Australia's commitment to closer defence ties with its neighbours.


If this happened in the past, why is Australian government not wise enough for this purchase. Well at least it should not come as a surprise for Indonesia?

Or at least, the Australian Ambasador should explain this before Indonesia Parliament.

IMO, in the last few year we've seen growing frustration in Indonesia towards some policies from some developped country. They issue statement like Indonesia hosts terorists, ban travel to Indonesia, and now prchase of weapon. This is very often done without adequate explanation to us.
Well it is their job to protect their people (I don't deny) but also it is their responsability to show valid fact of their policy especially when other country impacted.

mmm
pemerintah nya aussie rada2 terlalu panik

td gua denger talk show di SBS radio tentang indo, masalah undang2 teror yg di bilang ngga konstitusi itu loh.. banyak orang2 bule yg telp ke SBS n mostly they have positive thinking about indo.

they said indo udah try to do what they can, and for sure they will not let those people walk freely. bnyk yg ngerti there was a mistake at the very beginning when deklarasi undang2 baru tp cacat. n then this australian critic aus government kenapa si david hicks yg ditahan di guantamao ngga di kasih enough publicity or effort to help this guy.

as usual... government looking for attention.. jilat2.. nyumput2.. and media looking for money (news like above sells) bla bla bla...
*sigh*

The best way to keep Indonesia united is to make sure that " pembangunan merata di semua propinsi". Kadang kadang kita juga harus menerima bahwa kita bisa dipermainkan oleh negara lain atau dipandang rendah oleh negara lain karena memang kita sendiri kurang becus menguruns negara.

Kenapa pembangunan hanya ada di Jawa selama 32 tahun sementara propinsi lain tidak maju maju padahal kan mereka ikut menyumbang. Kenapa di daerah papua tidak dijadikan sentral ekonomi juga untuk ikut mendukung kehidupan ekonomi lokal.

Mungkin mulai sekarang kita semua harus bersatu dan membangun negara ini dengan benar agar tidak dipandang rendah bangsa lain lagi. Saya rasa kementrian luar negeri kita juga kurang pandai dan kurang aktif memberikan kesan yang bagus tentang Indonesia di luar negeri.

iya loh,
kadang gua ngerasa, yg patut disalahin for everything ya pemerintah indo sendiri
pembangunan ngga merata
ngga bisa naro indo di bargaining position
ngga dsb dsb
kenapa coba coconut bisa rule a country :/
hope the next one bakal do better

Actually, we are one of the richest country besides Brunei, etc... We have dozens of natural resources, oil and gas reserves, beautiful sea, huge land, plenty of talented people who creates magnificient inventions. But... again... but those advantages that we have, handed by the wrong bureaucracy.. Weak government, and our leader itself doesnt has a strong leadership.. they are in the weak position of political bargaining.. So, it does make sense, many our talented people where born in here (Tanah air tercinta) fleeing abroad, because they dont treated well here.. The government as ignorants as well.. :bash:

Liatlah freeport... berapa sih untung buat kita, buat kas negara??
Sekarang lagi2 muncul kebullshitan baru... Koalisi Kebangsaan??!! If y'all sering baca2 berita akhir2 ini... Apa yg sudah pemerintah sekarang lakukan sekarang ini makin mempertegas status koalisi kebulshitan itu... Visi dan misi mereka bukan rakyat.. tapi kepentingan elit, kursi, dan of course Sabetannya itu...

Kadang aku cuman bisa kesal, marah, emosi, tapi apa daya, aku kan hanya rakyat kecil yg tidak punya kuasa. Lebih baik saya terus bekerja keras untuk masa depan saya dan masyarakat yang membutuhkan saya, dan terus berkontribusi di forum SSC tercinta ini... :)

Sanhen, yeah we do hope in our next new president... at least something change lah.. to be better of course... Btw, Ttg postingan jokes presiden indonesia itu ternyata memang banyak benarnya... what a coconut!!

hehehehe.... bicara politik nih..... asik2... sorry gue postingnya pake bahasa indonesia........ semua pandangan yang temen-temen kasih nggak ada yang salah, soalnya gue tahu semua punya sudut pandang yang beda2..... topik ini berkembang dimulai kalo nggak salah setelah kerusuhan 11 mei 98.... sebelum itu hubungan australi ma indo baek2 aja, liat aja berapa kali paul keating dateng ke indonesia waktu dia menjabat jadi pm, yang dinamain hubungan tetangga bener2 terjalin, sampe2 rakyat kita bisa jalan2 ke australia nggak perlu bikin visa? semenjak kejadian 98 pas waktu howard jadi PM dan suharto turun, semua hubungan indonesia - australi rusak, semua rencana yang dijanjiin sama suharto - keating berantakan, mereka cuman punya 2 pilihan tetep mempertahankan suharto jadi presiden dan hubungan membaik (amerika nggak suka hal ini, karena interest mereka cuman terbatas di freeport) atau menghancurkan indonesia atas nama demokrasi (amerika bisa masuk dgn leluasa dibantu oleh IMF) ??? rakyat kita yang udah capek gara2 dibelenggu oleh pemerintah (suharto) memilih demokrasi ??? yang akhirnya menyebabkan hubungan indonesia australia berantakan (karena banyak korelasi indo - oz dibawah nama keluarga cendana)....
masalah timor timur, masalah kompleks yang semuanya (memang benar) diawali oleh nggak meratanya pembangunan, ada yang tahu nggak kalo dibawah kedutaan australia di timor timur ada tambang uranium? dan celah timor adalah ladang minyak dan gas terbesar di lautan hindia?

yang dimaksud ancaman sama mereka adalah arti bias yang gue artiin sebagai ketakutan pemerintah australia terhadap apa yang indonesia bisa buat untuk ngehancurin ekonomi mereka. nggak ada sama sekali ancaman dalam artian physical contact . mereka takut militer naik, mereka (tni) mengambil alih semua interest mereka di negara kita. makanya gue yakin kalo sekarang mereka berada di dalam posisi netral dan nunggu siapa yang bakal jadi presiden indonesia, karena 2-2 nya bukan favorit mereka. calon favorit mereka udah gugur...... guess who?

indonesia juga jadi ancaman buat mereka sekarang karena rakyat kita semakin pinter, dan berani berbuat demi kepentingan mereka masing2, inilah hasil dari demokrasi yang mereka buat (negara boneka), dan posisi australia yang berada di tengah ngebuat mereka tambah sulit.... kalo mereka memihak Indonesia (Asia) maka mereka takut negara (amerika khususnya) bakal ngucilin mereka (posisi australia ibarat nasi rawon; nasi putih ditengah dikelilingi sama daging hitam hahahahahah); kalo mereka mihak ke negara barat, mereka dikucilin sama asia....

ini juga ngebuat john howard pengan banget mempercepat direalisasiinnya Free Trade Agreement sama Amerika, soalnya kalo partai liberal kalah di pemilu kali ini, mereka udah bisa ngelihat kalo Labor party di bawah Mark Latham bakal ngeliat balik ke Asia, (Mark my word) karena labor dari jaman Bob Hawke, Paul keating semuanya ngeliat Australia adalah bagian dari benua terbesar di dunia, Asia Pasifik....

jadi kesimpulan gue yang dimaksud indonesia sebagai ancaman terbesar di australia adalah ketakutan terbesar pemerintah australia dengan bangunnya kembali apa yang pernah disebut sebagai "macan Asia" salah satu negara dengan kekutan ekonomi di jamannya (mulai 2005 kita bisa ngelihat pertumbuhan ekonomi surplus di negara ini)

The people who fight with muscle and power will likely lose the battle, but the one who uses the tounge and brain will defeat any super power.....

i hope some of us will understand..... and i would like to apologize to everyone that don't understand indonesian, because in my point of view this is a sensitive case that need to be looked from any differrent angle that create what we called "unity in diversity" and that's how we will handle this case right guys?

tararengkyu sadayana

Kikitielman:
interesting point of view, though I would have thought that Western governments (including Australia) generally prefer SBY over all other candidates (although they don't mind Mega either).

hahaha
interesting indeed.
yup, semuanya start dari kerushuan dulu, waktu suharto n keating lengser
u right.. kemana pun perginya, mereka tuh coba ngelinduing their interest
which is kata gua sih sah2 aza.. indonesia bakal do the same
so gua bakal keep blaming the goverment and media hehehehehe

gue yakin kalo sekarang mereka berada di dalam posisi netral dan nunggu siapa yang bakal jadi presiden indonesia, karena 2-2 nya bukan favorit mereka. calon favorit mereka udah gugur...... guess who?

Amien rais? :lol:


cheers

hahaha
interesting indeed.
yup, semuanya start dari kerushuan dulu, waktu suharto n keating lengser
u right.. kemana pun perginya, mereka tuh coba ngelinduing their interest
which is kata gua sih sah2 aza.. indonesia bakal do the same
so gua bakal keep blaming the goverment and media hehehehehe

right indeed buddy, absolutely agree!!! and to follow up what alvin said that they prefer SBY but don't mind Megawati by all means that they put a neutral position as they (both of them) not a favourable candidates, as their favourite candidate did not make it to the second round, is that right hey david-80?

should we turn the republic to monarchy?? and we called the nation as "Nusantara" ?? :bash: :weirdo:

Yup Kiki !

anyway if we will have kingdom of Indonesia, i think indonesia will be in more stable and respected country in the future

remember sriwijaya kingdom

cheers

If Indonesia becomes a kingdom which family rules this huge country ? And the wealth will stay within the family.

But anyway of course we have to blame the goverment for mismanagement but this doesn t mean that foreign powers may dictate this country. Since Howard became PM , relations between the 2 countries became bad. Does mr Howard nickname not start with a C instead of a H??

If Indonesia becomes a kingdom which family rules this huge country ? And the wealth will stay within the family.

But anyway of course we have to blame the goverment for mismanagement but this doesn t mean that foreign powers may dictate this country. Since Howard became PM , relations between the 2 countries became bad. Does mr Howard nickname not start with a C instead of a H??

hahhhahaha nice quote buddy, the kingdom i'm thinking is like countries in europe which they only be as a figure head, but also have different political government, because that;s what we need a strong figure head right boys and girls? but this is only an opinion with no string attached in between

cheers,

This discussion is overblown. There is absolutely no indication that Australia poses a threat to the integrity of Indonesia, what there is a problem of is that of perception. There has been this myth that Indonesia is a threat to the Australian nation, that one day, either through military force or a flood of refugee, the Indonesians will swamp their desert island. So there is also a large fear in Australia that Indonesia will disintegrate, a fear heightened by the recent multispectrum crisis and the eruption of bloody conflict in many parts of the nation.

I think the Indonesian government will have to approach the Australian people through campaigns and the like to convince them of the peacefulness of the nation. I don't believe that you can generalize the foreign policies of any nation, let alone democratic ones, through history. There is a tendency to swing between points. Paul Keating practically admired Soeharto, while John Howard, coming in at the point when the Aussie nation was fearful of Asian growing influence, have swing the pendulum back to American-oriented.

Australia isn't and cannot be the deputy of the region. That's because even America isn't the police here. I find that statement repulsive. To think a nation of 18 million could ever concieve itself of violently intervening in the affairs of other Asian nation is ludicrious.

I don't share the nationalistic sentiments of some of you here. I think that is highly overblown. The Indonesian state is the continuation of the Netherlands East Indies, 90% of the pegawai negeri of Indonesia during the time of its independence was the pegawai negeri of the Netherlands Indies, our laws and regulations, our cities and economies are the continuation of those of the Hindia Belanda.

Indonesian independence came about from the fortuitious event of World War II, Soekarno and the rest of the gangs of Indonesian leaders were at the time confined to Boeven Digoel or other isolated areas. Pribumi leaders at the time was at the Volksraad discussing issues with their white counterparts. I imagine that if World War II never occured, the progress of the Netherlands Indies, especially in the area of civil liberty, would have reached a culmination to the founding of a Netherlands Indies independent state. It wouldn't really be that different from the Indonesian state that this side of the dimensional universe meted out. We would certainly not have had the havoc of the Soekarno years.

By no means, i do think the best any foreign nation can do to torn apart Indonesia is by supporting the separatist..not military invasion, because they know they will get f*cked up.


cheers

But why on earth would they like the biggest nation in Southeast Asia to balkanize? It would only provide greater instability to the whole region and would be very bad for business in the region. What Indonesia needs is less nationalism than what it has today. This nation was built on some nationalist hatred toward the Dutch. This long process of hate is corrupting the very soul it needs to be a good nation. We should be the first generation far enough from the actual battles of the revolution to say we don't really care about nationalism anymore.

What Indonesia needs is less nationalism than what it has today.

So, in your opinion today we Indonesians have a high level of nationalism? Well, I got a feeling many are not, especially after '97 crisis.
Nationalism is needed, in some way, to avoid the country from being collapsed.


This nation was built on some nationalist hatred toward the Dutch.


A country who's figthing back the colonism cannot be called hating towards colonial. Who wants to be colonized anyway?


This long process of hate is corrupting the very soul it needs to be a good nation. We should be the first generation far enough from the actual battles of the revolution to say we don't really care about nationalism anymore.

In my humble opinion, most of Indonesians already forgot the past colonialization time --which is good--, let alone keep the hatred in our heart. One of the prove is, very rare or can be said none, we talk about it or bring this 'issue' into national agenda for instance. On the other hand, We are more into how to survive and to build this country.
The fact that there is mismanagement in our country doesn't mean that we blame it on the past especially to those who colonized us.

What s wrong with being a patriot , to love your country .Nationalism is good as long as this doesn t turn to look for a scape-goat when something goes wrong in a country.
It s easy to blame wrongdoing to a particular group of people., thean nationalism can be very dangerous.
But to love your country as such that your are proud and have patriotic feelings is imo a good thing.

Dear Indonesian Forum-members,

Under whatever banner - Patriotic, Nationalistic - it's all irrelevent and pointless to debate about!!

WHAT IS IMPORTANT TODAY: we all, as a nation [w/ all the Gov/Civic/Biz Leaders] should gather up in unity for the sole purpose of BUILDING OUR ECONOMY!!!!!

Indonesia is in dire need to revamp itself and work on its COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE if we're going to survive in this Global Competition! I'm talking about Global Trade.

I have the privilege of being physically outside of Indonesia, and can see from a distance [and objectively] how deteriorated our economy AND OUR COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE are.

A simple observation [keep in mind: from a US-viewpoint]: when we lived in New Jersey/New York area about 10 years, ago, you'd go to any GAP, Banana Republic, Nike, Limited Store and would easily find a vast array of "Made in Indonesia" items.
Fast forward 2004 [we're now living in San Diego, CA]: go visit the same stores and you'd be hardpressed to find "Made in Indonesia" labels. Today they read "Made in Lesotho, Ethiopia, Honduras, Bhutan, Vietnam, Romania, Lithuania, Guatemala, etc."

You go to any electronic store and you'd see "Made in China" [let's not even mention this 1 > a no brainer!], Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, Chile, etc. No "Made in Indonesia" there!

You go to a Costco [Wholesale Center, like a Carrefour, Tesco, etc.] or Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target > go to kitchenware/homewares > look at wood products [home accents], lamps, baskets, patio/garden furniture, handicraft items > and they read "Made in the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Myanmar, Guatemala, India". I had a hard time trying to find "Made in Indonesia" [keep in mind > the exquisite craftsmanship of Bali & Java > the wooden carving, the plethora of handicraft items]. Even our Teak Furniture that has been a popular export item. Most of it is now "Made in Myanmar"!!!!

I'm not an Economist w/ a PhD, but I do understand that as economies grow, countries climb up the Competitive Ladder, and go to the next stage [from basic commodities > food items > garment/clothing/footwear > simple manufacturing > electronics > computers > services > hi tech > biotech, etc, etc.

My simple Q is: "WHERE ON EARTH IS INDONESIA, in this Global Trade Map"?????

Is Indonesia really WORSE-OFF" than Myanmar, Ethiopia, Bhutan, even Lesotho? It sure looks like it is. I can continue horror stories, but that's not my point, I'm merely sharing reality with all of you.

I don't have the answer to that. All I'm suggesting is: let's put our differences aside, and work collectively. During the past 7 years of the Asian Crisis, we've been busy w/ Political Circus, Power Struggle, Economic Collapse, Social Morose, inactivity of Business, and a host of other negative aspects.

I do admit Indonesia is unique w/ its problems and challenges, it's the world's largest archipelago, is multiethnic, and has a large population, 60% of its population are under the age of 25. THEY ALL need JOBS. Therefore to grow the economy, attain positive growth, and create jobs [through export-oriented industries] IS A MUST! And ofcourse, during the Asian Crisis we were hit by a double-whammy > both Economic AND Political Turmoil.

INFRASTRUCTURE is one of them! You CANNOT RUN A SMOOTH ECONOMY/TRADE without a good infrastructure. During the US Depression [1930s-1940s] Eisenhower [hope I got this one right!] decided to put gov. funds into Infrastructure/Public Works, building Interstate Highways, Dams, Ports, Airports, etc., etc. Good/solid infrastructure is the backbone of any economy.

And you'd think Hitler could've made Germany into such a formidable Power in Europe [and later seize Europe] without a good Infrastructure?? Anyone recall the "Autobahn"? Yes, ofcourse in the beginning he used it to transport troops, but it later benefited the economy more than anything else.

And look no further than China's Forum in this website, to see how they're transforming their ENTIRE ECONOMY, ITS PEOPLE AND EVENTUALLY THEIR ECONOMIC PROSPERITY thru Infrastructure!!!! They're doing it NOW, as we speak. Do you think Beijing could host the Olympics if it didn't have world-class infrastructure?

Unfortunately Indonesia's report card is VERY VERY POOR! Indonesia is a poorly performing student, deserves a slap on the hand, lose 1 grade year, and re-do the last grade! That's the best analogy I could think of.

We shouldn't be here, discussing w/ glee and excitement the sight of the next Supertall skyscraper w/ Sexy World-Class Architecture rising in Jakarta, and debate about the irrelevancy of good highways, train/plane/sea modes of transport that they're only FOR THE RICH!!!!!

Come on!

If you look at any angle of the Economy, Indonesia is not gaining any foothold. I have tonnes of friends in the Manufacturing Sector in Indonesia, and many of them, have either closed their factories, or relocated them altogether to China. Guys, even Vietnam has better economic prospects than Indonesia.
It's a sad fact, but let's look at what we can do to improve it. I know we can, Indonesia is NO DOUBT a GREAT NATION!

What I'm doing in my capacity 10,000 miles away from Jakarta, is merely HELPING SPREAD the word about the true potential of Indonesia, it's friendly people, it's amazingly rich & diverse culture, cuisine, arts, travel lure, etc. That's my share of the task, and I encourage everyone else to start thinking about what they can do. Let's use this forum to find solutions, and not battle our opinions.

ciao tutti,
dian
san diego

Hi ,

Well I live in The Netherlands for nearly 40 yrs. it make me sad if people talked bad abt the country where I was born . I grew up in The Neherlands Im very lucky being in the position of travelling around the world and see a lot of places. I live here but my heart is in Indonesia. This has nothing to do with being a nationalist or patriotic. ( I spent my whole life in Holland I was a baby when my family left Indonesia ).

I dunno this is interesting or not, but being in retail industry I took note of these things:

Now is less and less "made in indonesia" stuff in the market. I used to check the "made in" labels before I buy my clothing, shoe etc in aussie. Now I hardly check.

But for consumption stuff (food), there's a rise though. I can see Indonesian stuff being sold at Coles and Safeway. And A big indonesian grocery will be opened in Melbourne QV (if they really open, lol). That is 100K+ per year just for the rent. But as the largest population in Melbourne (30% of Melbourne in Indonesian) this is not a stupid idea.

One thing that I notice as well, there's a perception that Indonesian food is just a copy of Malaysian and Thailand food. Well.. can not blame them, Indo goverment have not really promoting food etc as part of tourism, only bali bali bali bali bali and bali culture.

- sanhen

By no means, i do think the best any foreign nation can do to torn apart Indonesia is by supporting the separatist..not military invasion, because they know they will get f*cked up.

Intresting fact I learnt of a friend the other day, during the Indonesian Malaysian conflict, Australia tempoarily invaded Indonesia - well part of Indonesia. Elite trops were sent down to Kalimantan and after defeating 3 or 4 brigades of Indonesian trops they were then withdrawn.

If your intrested I did a quick search on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_Confrontation

The relevant facts are towards the bottom of the article.

A country who's figthing back the colonism cannot be called hating towards colonial. Who wants to be colonized anyway?

Is this true? How much of Indonesia has always been part of the Netherlands East Indies? How much of it was the continuation of the old regime? I believe that what happened to most of the world in the twentieth century was the result of a mishap in the global-modern-capitalist world system which first started to deteriorate in WW I and then further rocked by the 30s depression, culminating in the WW II.

Soekarno, Hatta and most of the firebrands were in the 30s, with the reactionary government of governor general Fock, were in some detention somewhere. Most of the pribumi leaders were contained in the Volksraad or in associations and the governments. People like Hussein Djajadiningrat, Moehammad Hoesni Thamrin and others fought for native rights through the Volksraad and other instruments of 'protodemocracy'.

The World War II brought the whole Indies world to an end. What happened is the emergence of radicals and ultra-nationalists as leaders. Soekarno would not have become president had WW II didn't happen. Soekarno was an unstable leader. His ultra-nationalist bent destroyed the nascent industrial economy by ousting the Dutch (50 thousand of them) out of Indonesia in 1957 as a consequence of the Irian confrontation, he confronted Malaysia on a whim because, in reminiscent to the 1984 George Orwell novel, his continued existence as president for life seems to be dependent on some political and military crisis in one form or another.

What I want to say is that most Indonesian didn't know he was an Indonesian. This process of Indonesianization was a product of Soekarno's policy of nation-building. He had to build a nation cause it was a nation whose imaginings have not yet been complete.

Nation states are imagined entities. It erases the conflictual nature of the real world. Inside Indonesia itself there are thousands of conflicts that must be honored because they involve 'legitimate' people. Nationalism usually destroys that legitimacy because in nationalism, the state is usually the legitimate body.

I don't know if 'nationalism' as a political feeling ever helps in promoting growth and progress. I believe capitalism, the rule of law and democracy does this on a much better way. I don't think nationalism does anything much other than providing the state with a handy tool to dominate. Even if we have nationalism, and I respect that feeling, I think we have to have a critical type of nationalism. It cannot, must not, be lead by a blind faith in the nation-state, but is a critical outlook of the nation, its greatness and its faults. This nation has tons of faults, don't let nationalism blind you of that.

This discussion is ludicrious exactly because we have so many other things to take care of. Why, for instance, are the rapings of Chinese-Indonesian in Jakarta still being ignored by the government? Do people actually know (and care?) that we are actually in the midst of war in Aceh? and etcetera. If we are critical, there are a lot of things that our nation could discuss about, say for instance reconciliation and the recognition of Communist massacre in 1966, reconciliation for the Chinese victims of 1998 (I don't understand why there is no monument to commemorate that horrible day in Chinatown, although I do know that there is a monument in Trisakti University honoring the students).

Our country is built on hatred of another race. This loss of trust is the most prominent feature of it. Nationalism may, per se, be harmless. But under the condition, it is useless and it can always be dangerous.

indi, nothing's personal here OK? no hard feeling. I read your last posting several times (well, 3 times to be precise). I couldn't put myself into the year 30's, or 40's to understand what was behind the 'birth' of Indonesia as a country vis-a-vis your comment 'This process of Indonesianization was a product of Soekarno's policy of nation-building'. Nor I have deep knowledge about it like you do.
I was born in early 70's as an Indonesian (still until today), went to school and finished university in Indonesia. Briefly born and grown up in Indonesia. What I'm trying to say is that I am aware and conscious that I'm an Indonesian. And with some level of proudness to be Indonesian, not too much but in normal level.

This is all the base idea when I'm saying 'A country who's figthing back the colonism cannot be called hating towards colonial.' Because I cannot imagine if a country is invaded by others and the people is not doing anything. WELL naturally they will at least protect themselves. Which I think apply to myself too.


I agree with your comment of that we are ignoring so much our issues. We, all components of this country, perhaps, do not have a gut to sit down, face to face, talk straight to first be frank of those issues, and working on it to solve it.

Yet, I couldn't agree with your opinion of saying 'Our country is built on hatred of another race'. I don't think. I was Never thaught to hate to others, be at school, at home. Not to mention as a nation-scale of hatred orientation to others.

But once again, this is only my humble opinion and everyone's entitled to their opinion. No personal attack, no hard feeling... OK dude? ;)

Ok guys, im new here (in the forum), and hope that i am not offending anyone with my personal opinion below.

Personally, i would not see nationalism as a bad thing. It is just a driving force to "bind" all of its followers towards a certain goal (i.e. a strong, prosperous country). This is similar to other forces like religious fundamentalism, communism, etc. etc., although each of them have differing goals.

Yes, i agree with Indi that our nation states are imaginary entities, and that most Indonesians (And Indonesia as a nation) have yet to discover the true meaning of what our nation is all about. This problem is complex, but the main reason was that the government lacks resolve in "guiding" the rest of the nation towards nation building. I'm not suggesting government propagandas on what the nation is about, what i am suggesting is bringing the Indonesian people to realize that there is a nation called Indonesia, that we all belong to that nation, and decides what should we (as a nation) work towards for.

Most Indonesian failed to see that beyond this beautiful country they live in there are other people living in other countries, and they are competing with us on international level (as a nation). Most indonesian (rich or poor, educated or otherwise) are too busy earning money and pleasuring themselves, and see the community as only the people they are seeing in day-to-day live. We are (almost literally) living in a world of our own, and cease to see the importance of the nation as a platform to compete in the international level.

On the hatred part, i don't think that "our country is built on hatred of another race". It is not a problem of hate, more on the failure to recognise that despite of one's skin color, we all stands equal as part of the human race. This problem is not limited to Indonesia only, we all are susceptible to the idea of different races, don't we? The world has more than enough examples for us Indonesians to see. Germany had Nazis and the holocaust, South Africa had Apartheid, even the USA had its own bad times.

If the Indonesian government don't stop its' political bickering (and promoting internal conflicts) and start building their nation, and if Indonesians don't smarten up and say no to being the puppets of various interest groups in the political circles, we, as a nation will forever be shackled by our ignorance and "stupidity".

*OK, like i said in the beginning, this is just my personal opinion, may or may not be true. No hard feelings to anyone,k?*

Hey no harm done, Tata. I respect all of your opinions. And absolutely no hard feelings. Actually I think something like this is good for Indonesians right? To be critical of one's existence is to think about it wisely. It should be benificial to everyone.


I realize that saying that our nationalism was based on hatred is a bit extreme. But there is no doubt that Indonesia was one of the few nation that had severed its ties with its colonizer to the point of absolute. We had an anti-colonial government from the start. For Indonesian this seems natural right? Actually there are fewer anti-colonial independence than there are non-anti-colonial independence. In Southeast Asia only two countries shares that name: Indonesia and Vietnam.

Anti-colonial governments are virulently, well, anti-colonial. The leaders of the nation were people who were jailed by the Dutch, harrased by the Dutch and thus, rightly, hated their guts. But what I am saying is that there were other pribumi leaders who weren't anti Dutch. There were Indonesian sitting in the Volksraad and inside government posts, people in the Sultanate of Yogyakarta and Surakarta which were pretty loyal to the Queen.

I mean I agree about the fact that the Netherlands East Indies was in fact an apartheid regime. But when it changed to Indonesia, we just turned the table. There were thousands and thousands of whites in Indonesia at the time. Most of them on the island of Java. They had acquiesed that the past would not come back again, but they had also agreed to still remain in Indonesia as part of the Indonesian nation.

Java was different from other areas of Southeast Asia in that it had a pretty developed white society. In the turn of the century, Java was the most developed island between Japan and India.

Because we had an anti-colonial government and an anti-colonial policy, the government took over the businesses of Dutchmen and pushed them out of the country by the end of the 50s. Many of them were families that had been living here for generations. We were also unique in that respect. We didn't have to kick them out of the country. It could have been like Kenya or Zimbabwe were a small white minority still exists.

I am not saying that this is what I want. I am saying this just to say that our country does to some extent have a problem with race: the leaders despised the 'Dutch' that resided here in Indonesia.

as the weather getting warmer down under this conversation is getting hotter... hahahahahahhaha....

well basically, no one should be getting heart feeling, because you are, i am are going to lead this country in the true meaning, your opinions are precious so keep going guys.... but i just want to comment on one thing.... this is us as indonesian, we always commenting and put opinion but.... we're always out of the main discussion.... we should look at the beginning what the topic is.....
this is also what make this country running in circle... because we don't see the topic... and keep making new opinion.
i see this in parliament also.... so what we need is a panel that reminds youse all so we don't go further down the pit.

hmm... i this is the time i say... no heart feeling hey? :runaway:

Well, I think in 50, 60 years Indonesia may not be far from being a rich country and those future middle/upper class 300 million Indonesians might look South and say: why not another island?

good scenario: let's buy a whole lot of property there!
bad scenario: let's take the whole thing, it's deserted anyway.

So we might see the birth of the Republic of New Java (former Commonwealth of Australia) capital Soeharto City (formerly known as Darwin)

Easy there... it's just a joke... and I am Brazilian so I'm not involved with either side!!!

wow.. what's this fuss all about? would anyone care to fill me in here?

Let's be honest, the average Australians and Indonesians don't really know about each other. We (the average joe) are influenced easily by the things we see on TV. What is worst, most of the information we receive from the TV is not through news channel but by your local 30 minutes news shows. Imagine trying to deciphere Australian-Indonesian relation by watching a segment on it that only last around 3 to 5 minutes. (And I'm being very liberal about the time) Whereas your academic papers on the same subject will usually go for around 30 to 40 pages. Then you have, at that time, the two political institutions using populist method in trying to garner votes. Each using the lowest denomination of diplomacy which in turn make it seems that both countries are a threat to each other. We (both Australia and Indonesi) need to be more mature about our relationship. Hopefully we can discuss our concerns with each other in a way which will benefit each other. Megaphone diplomacy and paranoia is not a way to more forward in our relationship.

Well, I think in 50, 60 years Indonesia may not be far from being a rich country and those future middle/upper class 300 million Indonesians might look South and say: why not another island?

good scenario: let's buy a whole lot of property there!
bad scenario: let's take the whole thing, it's deserted anyway.

So we might see the birth of the Republic of New Java (former Commonwealth of Australia) capital Soeharto City (formerly known as Darwin)

Easy there... it's just a joke... and I am Brazilian so I'm not involved with either side!!!

:hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious

A series I read by an Australian Author was kinda about this. It was about the SE Asian countrys joining there military and overtaking Australia so they could live here! REALY good book. Australia's force's were wiped out, Australia's Goverment fled to the US and Europe, No one would help (America didnt wont another Vietnam), So NZ saved us with money and equipment from the US, lol.

I think it means Oz see's Indonesia as a threat for that reason. We have so much open and wasted land, while over there it is so crammed and packed. But I dont think Australians are realy threatened, we know we would have immense backing from other nations.

Never knew such FUNNY THREAD is even exist.

The last post was posted more than 3 years ago. And this thread was initiated before Indonesia Presidential election back in 2004. And let say, I was having only preety bad connection of TELKOMNET INSTAN (and have to pay f*cking Rp 11,000 for a usage of every hour). And onli paying for Rp 2,300 for a liter of PREMIUM :D

Okay, I learn something by reading this thread ... That the world does revolving around us. U predicted many good and bad things ...

Indistad said in very first page of this thread that ACEH was in the midst of local war with GAM... LOL ... In December 2004, there was a major earthquake which trigger the massive tsunami ever. The casualties in Aceh was even reaches 200 thousand.

What happened in 2006 is quite surprising, that finally our Central government making an agreement with GAM. And,, bhaammm .... there were a local election in Aceh to vote governor, and we see that ex-GAM candidate won the election. Not to mention, there is a Aceh-local political party will join our National Election in 2009 :D ...

Instead of talking about blind nationalism ,, we should discuss about BLIND PREDICTION , ehh >??? :naughty:

Suharto (the one who some of you blame in this thread) also had passed away ...

And Howard ,, who is he ?>?? I dont even know him :rofl: ....


Well, I think in 50, 60 years Indonesia may not be far from being a rich country and those future middle/upper class 300 million Indonesians might look South and say: why not another island?

good scenario: let's buy a whole lot of property there!
bad scenario: let's take the whole thing, it's deserted anyway.

So we might see the birth of the Republic of New Java (former Commonwealth of Australia) capital Soeharto City (formerly known as Darwin)

Easy there... it's just a joke... and I am Brazilian so I'm not involved with either side!!!

I'm including the one who looks SOUTH... maybe not just LOOKING, but more to like STARING .....

Hot issue (bit sensitive).

There were Indonesian sitting in the Volksraad and inside government posts, people in the Sultanate of Yogyakarta and Surakarta which were pretty loyal to the Queen.



LOL .... It is funny, when I look on Indonesia colonial map, that Jogja is not under Dutch colonialization :rofl: ... It is more to like independent state.

And, when dutches govt fleeing out from Indo, they started to think, "how insignificant us to the newly-formed independent nation. And that nation was starting to hate DUTCH (our lovely-friendly ally)." ,,, So let's just saving our position by supporting "that" newly-formed nation .... :rofl:

Actually, I guess they thought that , " We will look damn f**king small on map" .... And now that part of Java Island, got the least development from any part of Java Islands :rofl: ... How Ironic .....

This thread is dead and i will make sure it will remain like this.


Closed