I was waiting for the $1M milestone before starting this inevitable thread... all real-estate related news/discussions goes here!

Average Vancouver house price hits $1 million, expected to rise further: Report

Derek Abma, Financial Post · Thursday, Jan. 6, 2011

OTTAWA — Home prices will continue a "moderate and steady climb" this year, helped along by an improving economy and low interest rates, according to a report released Thursday.

Real estate services firm Royal LePage said the average price of a home in Canada will rise three per cent to $348,600, even as the number of transactions falls two per cent.

In Vancouver, the average price of a two-storey home is now more than $1 million, Royal LePage said, up 9.8 per cent over the last year. The report predicts an increase of 3.7 per cent for Vancouver house prices in 2011.

The report said the strongest price gains will happen in mid-sized cities where homes are priced below the national average. It noted places like Winnipeg, St. John's and Fredericton, where single two-storey homes are still widely available for less than $300,000.

However, cities such as Calgary and Edmonton were among the few major centres showing price declines, year to year, as of the end of last year. Edmonton now has lower-priced homes than Saskatoon, according to the Royal LePage report. The average price for a two-storey home in Edmonton was $334,286 in last year's fourth quarter, down 2.3 per cent from a year earlier. It was $359,250 in Saskatoon, up 6.1 per cent.


Twitter.com/derekabma


Average prices for two-story homes as of Q4 2010 (change from year earlier):


Halifax $291,000 (9.7%)
St. John's $327,627 (9.6%)
Montreal $375,222 (8.7%)
Ottawa $354,083 (6.7%)
Toronto $594,231 (5.6%)
Winnipeg $296,750 (6.4%)
Regina $282,500 (9.1%)
Saskatoon $359,250 (6.1%)
Calgary $404,622 (-5.3%)
Edmonton $334,286 (-2.3%)
Vancouver $1,007,500 (9.8%)
Victoria $480,000 (6.9%)

Source: Royal LePage


Read more: http://www.financialpost.com/Average+Vancouver+house+price+hits+million+expected+rise+further+Report/4068694/story.html#ixzz1AhcNR46i

-----------end of article--------------

It's not really that significant as all the numbers appear to be for city proper (this fact matters a little more in Vancouver/Toronto), and the numbers for Vancouver proper had been very close to $1M for a number of years now. The metropolitan average is closer to $800K. http://www.rebgv.org/housing-price-index?region=all&type=all&date=2010-12-01 Also, Victoria's numbers are way lower than it should be (should be closer to $560K)

This section from the following article kind of breaks it down a bit...

METRO NEWS
Vancouver
Published: January 07, 2011 5:37 a.m.

...Within Vancouver, the average price of a two-storey dwelling on the West Side ($1.45 million) is almost double that of one on the East Side ($750,000).

Royal LePage’s Q4 House Price Survey also found that the average detached bungalow increased by 7.6 per cent, to $891,500 from $828,750, while the average condominium increased seven per cent, to $484,500 from $452,750...

http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/local/article/737082--want-a-two-storey-1m-please

This thread is already 3 pages long in the British Columbia section...

This thread is already 3 pages long in the British Columbia section...

Well of course it is, just another masturbatory tool in the arsenal of those who live in 'the best place on Earth'

"Herrr Derrrp we have expensive houzez Oooo"

Sure the housing prices for Vancouver proper are high, but many people in the region listed live in high rises not acounted for in that report. But it's easy to only look at one side of things when one is looking to brag. It's a shame some seem to need to do it all the time.

By The Vancouver Sun January 31, 2007 (yes this article is three years old now but we all know the average condo price is not $700,000 more then it was in 2007).

It's good news if you own real estate, but bad news if you don't: A new report predicts condominium prices in Greater Vancouver will keep rising through to 2011.

The mortgage insurer Genworth Financial Canada, using data from the Conference Board of Canada, reports that demand in Vancouver's condominium resale markets will slow, but so will the rate of new construction.

The result will be enough demand to push prices up 6.2 per cent to an average $307,305 this year, then 4.4 per cent on average through the end of the decade.

That will make the average condominium price in Greater Vancouver $349,409 by 2010, compared with $289,344 in 2006.

"Vancouver's condominium market took off in 2001 and has not looked back," the report says, and supply has not kept up with demand.

And although sales of existing condominium units fell 10 per cent over the first three quarters of 2006, the report said supplies were still tight and will remain relatively so through 2011.

Price gains up to 2006, the report adds "have been so steep that affordability is becoming an issue," even for relatively less-expensive condominiums.

However, Genworth Financial president Peter Vukanovich said he hopes the report reassures people that the bottom is not about to fall out of Vancouver's condominium market.

"People are seeing a lot more skyscrapers and cranes [around Vancouver] and are wondering 'who is buying all these things, and [saying] it can't last,'" Vukanovich said.

"When you do the research, you see we have some well-balanced supply being met by demand."

Vukanovich said Genworth has just started working with the Conference Board of Canada to generate semi-annual reports on Canadian housing markets.

He added that in research being done on rental markets, they found more people are renting because they think prices will go down.

"Our job is to help people get into homes the cheapest possible way through mortgage insurance," Vukanovich.

He said potential buyers might be less reticent if they had more confidence that prices are going up.

"I'm not trying to stimulate demand, I'm trying to put people more at ease," Vukanovich said.

Robyn Adamache, senior market analyst for Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., said the findings of the Genworth and Conference Board research are consistent with her expectations for the market to trend down gradually.

"We see that, both in terms of housing starts and in terms of resale markets, things plateauing now," Adamache said. "We are still expecting a soft landing, and that's what's happening."

One unknown, however, is how many owners of condominium units that are still under construction plan to sell them upon completion, said Tsur Somerville, director of the centre for urban economics and real estate at the Sauder School of Business at the University of B.C.

Sure the housing prices for Vancouver proper are high, but many people in the region listed live in high rises not acounted for in that report. But it's easy to only look at one side of things when one is looking to brag. It's a shame some seem to need to do it all the time.

By The Vancouver Sun January 31, 2007 (yes this article is three years old now but we all know the average condo price is not $700,000 more then it was in 2007).

It's good news if you own real estate, but bad news if you don't: A new report predicts condominium prices in Greater Vancouver will keep rising through to 2011.

The mortgage insurer Genworth Financial Canada, using data from the Conference Board of Canada, reports that demand in Vancouver's condominium resale markets will slow, but so will the rate of new construction.

The result will be enough demand to push prices up 6.2 per cent to an average $307,305 this year, then 4.4 per cent on average through the end of the decade.

That will make the average condominium price in Greater Vancouver $349,409 by 2010, compared with $289,344 in 2006.

"Vancouver's condominium market took off in 2001 and has not looked back," the report says, and supply has not kept up with demand.

And although sales of existing condominium units fell 10 per cent over the first three quarters of 2006, the report said supplies were still tight and will remain relatively so through 2011.

Price gains up to 2006, the report adds "have been so steep that affordability is becoming an issue," even for relatively less-expensive condominiums.

However, Genworth Financial president Peter Vukanovich said he hopes the report reassures people that the bottom is not about to fall out of Vancouver's condominium market.

"People are seeing a lot more skyscrapers and cranes [around Vancouver] and are wondering 'who is buying all these things, and [saying] it can't last,'" Vukanovich said.

"When you do the research, you see we have some well-balanced supply being met by demand."

Vukanovich said Genworth has just started working with the Conference Board of Canada to generate semi-annual reports on Canadian housing markets.

He added that in research being done on rental markets, they found more people are renting because they think prices will go down.

"Our job is to help people get into homes the cheapest possible way through mortgage insurance," Vukanovich.

He said potential buyers might be less reticent if they had more confidence that prices are going up.

"I'm not trying to stimulate demand, I'm trying to put people more at ease," Vukanovich said.

Robyn Adamache, senior market analyst for Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., said the findings of the Genworth and Conference Board research are consistent with her expectations for the market to trend down gradually.

"We see that, both in terms of housing starts and in terms of resale markets, things plateauing now," Adamache said. "We are still expecting a soft landing, and that's what's happening."

One unknown, however, is how many owners of condominium units that are still under construction plan to sell them upon completion, said Tsur Somerville, director of the centre for urban economics and real estate at the Sauder School of Business at the University of B.C.
Thanks for posting that.
Once again, a skewed report...

Thanks for posting that.
Once again, a skewed report...


Like most reports, that;s why I posted it.

...but we all know the average condo price is not $700,000 more then it was in 2007).

No article ever suggested that. What the numbers that you selectively put together does show is that the average house in Vancouver proper in 2010 is indeed $700,000 more than the average condo in Greater Vancouver in 2007. Not sure why we're comparing apples to marshmellows though...

Well of course it is, just another masturbatory tool in the arsenal of those who live in 'the best place on Earth'

"Herrr Derrrp we have expensive houzez Oooo"
More like 3 pages of complaints lol.

Average Vancouver house price hits $1 million

a two-storey home


Bit of a lie then, innit?

Victoria's only at $480? I thought it was up near Vancouver in terms of price.

Victoria's only at $480? I thought it was up near Vancouver in terms of price.


Victoria offers far more housing stock. Remember that number does not reflect condos, the area of Vancouver in that report has very few houses driving up the prices. You can still get a condo for well below $1,000,000. It's a very one sided report meant to boost egos for some. It seems to have worked in this thread.

LOL.

She's gonna pop! Buyers market inbound!

Sorry Andrew but I can't be bothered to repreat:

we all know the average condo price is not $700,000 more then it was in 2007).
What the numbers that you selectively put together does show is that the average house in Vancouver proper in 2010 is indeed $700,000 more than the average condo in Greater Vancouver in 2007. Not sure why we're comparing apples to marshmellows though...

Dunno why you're trying to discredit this report (actually i sorta do), but we're talking about Royal LePage here...

Using single-family homes as a benchmark only "boosts" figures for cities that have proportionally few houses relative to condos. Vancouver is one such place, but we all know it doesn't have the fewest houses relative to apartments...

Here's the full report for all of Canada, broken down by cities/neighbourhoods/housing type. http://docs.rlpnetwork.com/rlp.ca/hps/Q3_2010_HPS_EN.pdf Compare with the report for just Vancouver: http://www.rebgv.org/housing-price-index?region=all&type=all&date=2010-12-01 Depending on the neighbourhood, an "average house price" is anywhere from "bungalow" to "executive 2 storey". For example, any housing type in North Vancouver is more expensive than an equivalent in Richmond, but Richmond has a higher average because the houses are generally newer and much bigger.

lol

Just when you thought BC was bad it gets worse...................very few houses in BC have basements so you get half the square footage for triple the price.
Also most homes built in the last 10 to 15 years have "backyards" that, quite literally, you can only fit a table and barbeque on. Most have backyards no more than 15 feet wide.
..........and yes, before you ask. I am not lying.
The wages here are about the national average............almost all of these ridiculous prices are due to the Chinese.

Also most homes built in the last 10 to 15 years have "backyards" that, quite literally, you can only fit a table and barbeque on. Most have backyards no more than 15 feet wide.

..........and yes, before you ask. I am not lying.

But you are lying :lol: I'm pretty sure 21 feet is the minimum frontage in Greater Vancouver. If you want to check out some really sorry looking subdivisions, google Mattamy Homes... at least they're affordable I guess...

If I owned a white and pink wooden stucco 2 bed bung worth a million bucks I'd sell it, and live in an apartment for the rest of my life.. with a bunch of cash to throw around! :yes:

^same here!

Vancouver was ranked third most least affordable city to buy a house, btw. (Avg price. CA$606,882)

a regular 2 storey house in Vancouver is avg $1 million not 600k. Even a 2 storey house in Coquitlam averages 600k which is two cities (30km) east of Vancouver proper.

a regular 2 storey house in Vancouver is avg $1 million not 600k. Even a 2 storey house in Coquitlam averages 600k which is two cities (30km) east of Vancouver proper.
The $606K refers to the Greater Vancouver Area. The city of Vancouver has like, 8 homes, so the price of a two storey greatly skews the stats. Just like when reports say that NYC's average apartment price is $1.5MM, it refers to just Manhattan (not even Harlem, which incidentally is part of Manhattan). It's not referring to all the burroughs that make up NYC. That aside, it's much more worthwhile looking at the whole area and all dwellings. This is why these reports are B.S. - they're always designed to suit an agenda of some kind.

If the report is designed to impress or awe us then it is a fail. If anything it will simply turn off a lot of Canadians thinking of moving to Vancouver from other parts of the country. How many average workers could ever hope to buy a home for one million bucks?

Windsor Ontario still has very cheap housing for a major city in Canada. (Possibly the cheapest in the country still?)
Although prices are going up again.

$435,900 (in very prestigious section) In Vancouver, $3 million+?
http://media.point2.com/p2h/listing/89bc/8355/a0c8/2b70e87b4669be726e65/gallery.jpg

$399,999 In Toronto, $2 million?
http://media.point2.com/p2h/listing/d286/21b3/869f/e5f3fdb8885864e6aee5/gallery.jpg

$344,000 In Montreal $1.2 million+?
http://media.point2.com/p2h/listing/c5a7/9774/5f20/aa554aaeabd148346388/gallery.jpg

(Random examples, just off one real estate site).



VERY affordable.
$180,000 in Windsor will get you an awesome house.


And no there's no mountains, but there's plenty of water, water sports, boating, historic places, vast amounts of parkland, nightlife, etc...

GTA housing market to stay hot in 2011

Toronto Star Wed Dec 08 2010
By Tony Wong Business Reporter

Ontario home sales will rise by 5 per cent in 2011, while prices should hit a record high, according to a report on the state of the Canadian real estate market.

Central 1 Credit Union says a strong market in 2011 will also see housing starts increase by 9 per cent next year, in what has been the most bullish forecast for 2011 so far.

“An undersupply in the new home market will place upward pressure on resale home prices,” said Helmut Pastrick, chief economist with Central 1. “This will provide an incentive for builders to increase housing starts.”

Central 1 also expects house prices to increase by 4.5 per cent in 2011 to $356,500, up by 4.2 per cent.

The report is at odds with other economists who have forecast a far weaker housing market for 2011. It also underlines the difficulties that economists have in trying to read the volatile market moving forward.

While Central 1 says they expect housing starts to go up significantly in Ontario next year, hitting 66,000 units, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation are forecasting that starts will decline to 55,000 units. The Toronto Dominion Bank is also calling for significantly lower starts of 47,000 units. The CMHC, like most other analysts is also expecting Ontario prices to remain flat or increase only slightly in 2011.

“The pace of job growth has started to cool, and we will likely see more cooling especially in the first half of next year,” said Ted Tsiakopoulos, Ontario regional economist for the CMHC.

“I’d say the momentum in Ontario real estate is in the other direction - activity has slowed,” said housing economist Will Dunning. “I would expect 2011 housing numbers in Ontario to be weaker than 2010.”

In order for housing starts, resale prices and sales to increase, you would have to see “a rapid pick up in job creation in Ontario which is not yet in evidence,” said Dunning.

However, the CMHC also released housing start figures for November on Wednesday which defied the expectations of most economists.

Toronto starts hit 51,100 seasonally adjusted and annualized units in November, up by 157 per cent from a month earlier. The stellar figure means starts are now 14 per cent higher this year than last year, and there is still one month to go.

The Toronto surge caught economists by surprise, pushing the national housing start figures to a much better than expected 187,200 units, representing an 11.6 per cent increase.

“The gain was almost entirely driven by a bounce in Toronto multi unit starts…the bigger picture continues to one of more moderate and stabilizing building activity,” said BMO Capital Markets economist Robert Kavcic.

While Ontario saw a massive increase in starts because of the Toronto market, most other provinces saw a decrease.

“Residential construction activity in November was making up for lost ground in October with strong increases in apartment and town home segments of the market,” said Tsiakopoulos. “However, it is unlikely that this above trend pace will be sustained.”

Slower job growth, less first time buyer demand and more choice in resale markets will temper any increases over the short term, said the CMHC.

“The rapid pace of sales earlier this year has resulted in strong starts for November,” said Ontario Home Builders’ Association president Bob Finnigan.

And despite the upbeat tone of the Central 1 report, Ontario builders are not gearing up for a record year.

“Looking forward to 2011 we are anticipating the housing market to level out with a moderate pace of activity,” said Finnigan.

Finnigan said home builders are pushing for the government to focus on job creation in 2011.

“We are watchful of the job market, because employment is a key indicator of economic health and something that could dampen performance in the coming year.”

Toronto’s priciest home is going for $27M


Toronto Star
By Tony Wong | Tue Jan 11 2011

How large do you live?

If you’re the owner of 9 High Point Rd. in Toronto’s pricey Bridle Path neighborhood, it’s all a matter of perspective.

At least for Margaret and Lee Ka Lau. They’re selling their mega-mansion for $26.8 million, currently the highest listed price for a property in the Toronto area.

Even by ostentatious Bridle Path standards, the home rates high on the bling factor. The living space is more than 40,000 square feet, making it one of the largest properties in the GTA. The estate is also on an extremely rare double Bridle Path lot, encompassing four acres.

One lot has the imposing living quarters with 22,935 square feet of space. The second two-acre lot has a sports complex (call it your very own Deerhurst Resort) with 17,645 square feet of space.

“It is absolutely magnificent,” says Elise Kalles, listing agent for the property. “It’s an estate that’s beyond anything else in the city.”

While tennis courts are a dime a dozen in the Bridle Path, 9 High Point is the ultimate in neighborhood oneupmanship.

For one thing, the tennis court is indoors. So no excuses about the sun being too hot, or the wind whipping the balls around. It also has a bowling alley and an indoor pool.

There is, of course, a cinema, and the tunnel leading from the main house to the sports complex has an indoor putting green. Just in case you get bored on the long walk from one part of the house to another. And no, a GPS is not included if you happen to get lost. But there are 13 washrooms throughout the house in case you need a pit stop.

The owners were certainly thinking big, which is why they ended up purchasing two lots. Homes on High Point Rd. and the Bridle Path were purchased and knocked down, before the new digs were built by society architect Joe Brennan about seven years ago, according to Kalles.

“This is very rare to have this kind of self-contained entertainment centre on this kind of scale,” says Kalles.

“But as large as it is, the home is in perfect taste, it’s not overdone.”

That may be a matter of opinion. In the main house, ceilings are 19 feet high. There is also a soaring 46 foot arboretum, the kind of scale that would dwarf some hotel lobbies.

Indoor parking is available for eight cars.

Fittingly, the Laus were hosts in November to perhaps Toronto’s splashiest charity party held in 2010.

Tickets for tables went for $10,000. And the 500 well-heeled guests included Warren Buffett, the world’s third richest man, and Canadian composer David Foster.

Singer Lionel Richie apparently serenaded fellow guest Muhammad Ali at the dinner, which raised an astonishing $3 million for children seeking organ transplants in Canada and around the world.

“It was a really incredible affair where you had a gathering of so many luminaries in one spot. There was a waiting list to buy tickets to meet Warren Buffett,” says Kalles, who attended the event.

The owners, who made their money in technology, (Lee Kau was a founder of Markham-based graphic chip maker ATI Technologies Inc.) decided to open their home to the fundraiser after hearing it was for children.

They will likely downsize once they have sold the house. (Although after owning this palace, downsizing is likely the only option.)

No word on what it costs to heat the place. But think about this: Property taxes alone are $115,341. That works out to $316 per day. And don’t forget to tip the gardener.


http://pimage1.homesandland.com/image/A022/1/64/A022188641.jpg

If the report is designed to impress or awe us then it is a fail. If anything it will simply turn off a lot of Canadians thinking of moving to Vancouver from other parts of the country. How many average workers could ever hope to buy a home for one million bucks?

I don't think it was intended to impress - rather, depress. Though it might impress those who bought themselves a house in Vancouver a few decades ago. :)

a regular 2 storey house in Vancouver is avg $1 million not 600k. Even a 2 storey house in Coquitlam averages 600k which is two cities (30km) east of Vancouver proper.
The $606K refers to the Greater Vancouver Area. The city of Vancouver has like, 8 homes, so the price of a two storey greatly skews the stats....

You're both wrong. The $602k number IS for Greater Vancouver, but for ALL HOUSING TYPES, including apartments. The average detached house in Greater Vancouver is hovering just above $800k (well over a million in city proper). If you consider that the average apartment in Greater Vancouver is $400k, and that the average duplex is $500k, and considering less than half live in detached houses, the numbers more or less make sense.

WINNIPEG TO BE HOTTEST HOUSING MARKET THIS YEAR IN CANADA


"Forget Vancouver or Toronto. Winnipeg is poised to be Canada's hottest housing market this year.

In fact, 2011 is shaping up to be the year of the mid-sized city with St. John's, Fredericton, Regina and Saskatoon also enjoying some of the strongest price increases in the country.

A lot of first-time buyers are already being priced out of large urban centres. With the Bank of Canada expected to resume interest-rate increases later this year, affordability will become a bigger issue for even more buyers."

...

"Winnipeg, however, is expected to eclipse that national average by posting a 7-per-cent gain this year. That easily outpaces the 3.7-per-cent increase expected for Vancouver and the 1-per-cent gain forecast for Toronto.

“It [Winnipeg] is the Canadian poster child for a well-diversified economy,” said Mr. Soper, adding the key drivers include agriculture, resources, manufacturing and public-sector employment. “They are not a one-trick pony like Calgary or St. John's, where you see really dramatic upswings, but a really solid reliable economy over the last decade and affordable home prices.”

Adrienne Warren, senior economist with the Bank of Nova Scotia, said the Winnipeg housing market remains “tight” in terms of supply. A positive population trend and strong demand will push prices higher."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/housing/winnipeg-set-to-be-hottest-housing-market/article1859524//

The Star says Toronto will have a slower year with a 9% increase in sales, and that's on the low side.

Impress/Depress all depends on who you are. All I know is I'm priced out, maybe i'll build a house in the middle of nowhere and commute by plane =P

I wonder what two older houses on the Bridle Path got "knocked down" to make the megamansion? How could anyone live in such a pile? Would be like living in a hotel.

I wouldn't mind living in a hotel :P

The average detached house in Greater Vancouver is hovering just above $800k (well over a million in city proper)

That's not right either. The average two storey detached in Vancouver proper is a bit over a million. The average detatched in Greater Vancouver is closer to $650K. The numbers you also quoted for condos and townhouse are for Vancouver proper, not the greater area.

I hope this bubble bursts so I can buy a damn house.

I wonder what two older houses on the Bridle Path got "knocked down" to make the megamansion? How could anyone live in such a pile? Would be like living in a hotel.


None, if you look at google maps it's under construction. Some of the homes around it look even larger.

I noticed it was under construction on Google Maps as well. Did they live there for like a year??

None, if you look at google maps it's under construction. Some of the homes around it look even larger.

They were already knocked down:

"The owners were certainly thinking big, which is why they ended up purchasing two lots. Homes on High Point Rd. and the Bridle Path were purchased and knocked down, before the new digs were built by society architect Joe Brennan about seven years ago, according to Kalles."

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the two knocked down were more tasteful than this MonsterMansion erected in its place.

a regular 2 storey house in Vancouver is avg $1 million not 600k. Even a 2 storey house in Coquitlam averages 600k which is two cities (30km) east of Vancouver proper.
The $606K refers to the Greater Vancouver Area. The city of Vancouver has like, 8 homes, so the price of a two storey greatly skews the stats....

You're both wrong. The $602k number IS for Greater Vancouver, but for ALL HOUSING TYPES, including apartments. The average detached house in Greater Vancouver is hovering just above $800k (well over a million in city proper). If you consider that the average apartment in Greater Vancouver is $400k, and that the average duplex is $500k, and considering less than half live in detached houses, the numbers more or less make sense.
That's not right either. The average two storey detached in Vancouver proper is a bit over a million. The average detatched in Greater Vancouver is closer to $650K. The numbers you also quoted for condos and townhouse are for Vancouver proper, not the greater area.

Do u know something I don't, or r u just making up numbers? :lol:

See below... educate yourself before trying to correct someone who actually lives and owns property in that market, lol

http://www.rebgv.org/housing-price-index?region=all&type=all&date=2010-12-01
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5200/decw.gif
http://www.rebgv.org/housing-price-index?region=all&type=all&date=2010-12-01
Numbers are from the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver... they're slightly lower as the denote benchmarks, not averages.

Actually, if you look at Royal le Page's real estate report, your numbers reflecting detached homes refers to two storey detached (both standard and executive) so I'm not making up numbers, just using a different source. When you factor in detached bungalows it's closer to $730K, so my mistake, not $650K.

http://docs.rlpnetwork.com/rlp.ca/hps/Q3_2010_HPS_EN.pdf
This is up to Q3 2010...

This is also pretty interesting math that the rebgv uses. If I add up the totals and divide for each category, the average for Greater Vancouver for say apartments is about $350K, not $390K. Same thing with detached - it's closer to $750K.

My original point was that these reports are somewhat B.S. because of some of the inaccuracies and 'slightly biased' data. It's not an attack dude, every survey of every kind does it. I could find you 10 different real estate reports of Toronto and Calgary and each one would have it's own agenda with it's own set of numbers. As TB said, if the report was designed to make everyone ooh and aah, it failed.

the numbers make me sad, i'm moving to Newfoundland where homes are 30k =P

I don't think living in NFLD would be a bad idea either. Even if the jobs are low paying, how low are they compared to Vancouver? Even if the salaries were 1/10th of what they are in Vancouver, you would still be much better off considering that houses are about 1/50th the cost and other expenses are probably a fraction as well.

Actually, if you look at Royal le Page's real estate report, your numbers reflecting detached homes refers to two storey detached (both standard and executive) so I'm not making up numbers, just using a different source. When you factor in detached bungalows it's closer to $730K, so my mistake, not $650K.

http://docs.rlpnetwork.com/rlp.ca/hps/Q3_2010_HPS_EN.pdf
This is up to Q3 2010...

This is also pretty interesting math that the rebgv uses. If I add up the totals and divide for each category, the average for Greater Vancouver for say apartments is about $350K, not $390K. Same thing with detached - it's closer to $750K.

So you are making up numbers. You claim their math is wrong, but substitute it with a retarded methodology... adding and dividing to get the average requires assuming that every municipality in Greater Vancouver has to have the same number of homes in each category :weird: Some of the suburbs on that list are as small as 20,000 people, compared to the 250,000 living in Vancouver West, and the 200,000 living on the North shore, or the 400,000 people living in Burnaby and Richmond, all of which have above-average stats.

My original point was that these reports are somewhat B.S. because of some of the inaccuracies and 'slightly biased' data... As TB said, if the report was designed to make everyone ooh and aah, it failed.
The same can be said about any report, but for some reason you want to discredit some perfectly-accurate numbers about a place you don't even live in?

When did real estate averages become a weighted average calculation? I didn't even say I was discrediting it, I was saying it's slightly exagerated. You don't have to actually live somewhere to understand something.

The same can be said about any report

That's exactly what I'm saying, any report can be like that.

Since always? Since high school, when you began studying for finals as they're worth 50% of your term grade? If suburb A has 10 houses worth $1M and suburb B has 1 house worth $500K, the average for the region isn't $750k, lol.

I didn't even say I was discrediting it, I was saying it's slightly exaggerated, inaccurate, biased, somewhat B.S...
That's funny. And I'm saying it's none of the above. Of course you don't hv to live here to have an opinion on things, just that in this case it would have helped to have finished grade 9 math first...

At this rate I'll never be able to buy a house with my average wage. It's a shame you need to make about 6 figures to buy any house these days otherwise you're house poor.

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/2011-real-estate-preview-01-05-11-5-40-pm/jvk2ah9w

2011 Real Estate Preview
2010 was a good year for Canadian residential real estate, with double digit gains early in the year, then tapering to more modest gains in recent months. So what's in store for 2011? BNN speaks to Don Campbell, president, Real Estate Investment Network.

Summed up.....

Over-Achievers
Edmonton
Calgary
Hamilton
K/W

Average
Ottawa
Halifax
Winnipeg
St. John

Under-Achievers
Vancouver
Toronto
Saskatoon
Montreal

finals and midterm only ever make up 30-40%

Also,

10 x $1mill + $500K divided by 11 = average.

No where does it makes sense to weight 10 $1 million dollar house as 1. The median would then be 1 million. This is weird alternate maths universe I've never heard of.

:grouphug:

Why the heck is there so much confusion?

Not exactly sure if this is what happened but if you count up all the houses in the all the suburbs, it is not relevant whether one certain suburb has less people than another.

There really shouldn't be any confusion whatsoever :lol: ACT7's point is that if you add up the averages for each suburb and divide by the number of suburbs lol, the result is lower than the metropolitan average indicated, hence the report is bullshit, biased, exaggerated, inaccurate, etc.

This reminds me of when everyone on SSP was trying to convince Caltrane74 that Shanghai has more than 11 buildings under construction...

There really shouldn't be any confusion whatsoever :lol: ACT7's point is that if you add up the averages for each suburb and divide by the number of suburbs lol, the result is lower than the metropolitan average indicated, hence the report is bullshit, biased, exaggerated, inaccurate, etc.



Ok yeah if that is indeed what he is doing than it is most definitely wrong.

Fine I'm wrong

"Only 15 detached homes are available on the market for under $600,000 within Vancouver city limits as of Jan. 31, and only two are below the $500,000 mark."

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/4196643/story.html#ixzz1CeI0ax14

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/2011-real-estate-preview-01-05-11-5-40-pm/jvk2ah9w

2011 Real Estate Preview
2010 was a good year for Canadian residential real estate, with double digit gains early in the year, then tapering to more modest gains in recent months. So what's in store for 2011? BNN speaks to Don Campbell, president, Real Estate Investment Network.

Summed up.....

Over-Achievers
Edmonton
Calgary
Hamilton
K/W

Average
Ottawa
Halifax
Winnipeg
St. John

Under-Achievers
Vancouver
Toronto
Saskatoon
Montreal

I guess their automatic assumption is the market where houses gain in cost the most is the best and those without the same level of inflation are "underachievers". One wonders how "over-achievers" can manage borrowing half a million bucks to buy a house....
Doesn't anyone get nervous at seeing housing prices go through the roof? It is as if it is a contest, or something, with the most $$ market "winning". Why does the media not brag when the price of a litre of gas spiral up? The only thing anyone seems proud of when prices go through the roof is housing..... I smell "bubble".

I guess their automatic assumption is the market where houses gain in cost the most is the best and those without the same level of inflation are "underachievers". One wonders how "over-achievers" can manage borrowing half a million bucks to buy a house....
Doesn't anyone get nervous at seeing housing prices go through the roof? It is as if it is a contest, or something, with the most $$ market "winning". Why does the media not brag when the price of a litre of gas spiral up? The only thing anyone seems proud of when prices go through the roof is housing..... I smell "bubble".

I couldn't agree with you more. The media is constantly gloating when home prices go up. Meanwhile that means a whole sector of the population is shut out from home ownership.

Fine I'm wrong

Those three words don't get nearly enough usage around here :)

Those three words don't get nearly enough usage around here :)

True. There is an allergy to them, I believe!! :yes:

I don't think living in NFLD would be a bad idea either. Even if the jobs are low paying, how low are they compared to Vancouver? Even if the salaries were 1/10th of what they are in Vancouver, you would still be much better off considering that houses are about 1/50th the cost and other expenses are probably a fraction as well.

Without having visited there, St. John's looks like a pretty cool city; Water Street and Duckworth seem like the types of streets most of us here love. I would consider moving there if the job was right, and I liked the city after visiting it.

The average detatched in Greater Vancouver is closer to $650K.

I know you already admitted to being wrong, but here's another little nugget:

http://www.bclocalnews.com/richmond_southdelta/richmondreview/news/115210919.html

The benchmark house in suburban Richmond (Vancouver's North York/Markham) is $1,037,689 as of end of January. The median price is $1,021,500. I put both numbers out there cuz a lot of people look at averages and say "misleading, cuz the median is much lower", or vice versa depending on which number isn't available. ;)

The thing that makes things even more warped in the Interior and on the Island is the number of mobile homes.
You would swear that half the houses in BC outside of Metro Van/Vic are mobile but are considered houses when figuring out the average prices for detached homes.

I know you already admitted to being wrong, but here's another little nugget:

http://www.bclocalnews.com/richmond_southdelta/richmondreview/news/115210919.html

The benchmark house in suburban Richmond (Vancouver's North York/Markham) is $1,037,689 as of end of January. The median price is $1,021,500. I put both numbers out there cuz a lot of people look at averages and say "misleading, cuz the median is much lower", or vice versa depending on which number isn't available. ;)
Congratulations!! You live in the most illogically, over-priced housing market on the planet. I know the good people of Vancouver would like to believe that the Chinese are the reason for such idiotic prices, but by that logic, cities with substantially higher Chinese populations/immigration/real estate investment would be in the same range. Not only that, but other cities' housing prices have been linked to Russian billionaires and Middle East money. Again, I find it hard to belive that Vancouver is attracting the highest amount of real estate investment from those regions.

I've never quite understood how a city with minimal head offices, the worst heroin problem in North America and rain for 6 months of the year can have such an over-priced housing market. Oh well...it's a Hubba Bubba bubble if I've ever seen one.

Anyway, an interesting article below.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/canada/2010/09/01/does-pricey-vancouver-have-a-housing-price-bubble/

Just did a little checking from StatsCan and it states there are 12,000 mobile homes in Ontario and 43,000 in BC. In other words on a per capita basis 9 times greater in BC than Ontario.

Congratulations!! You live in the most illogically, over-priced housing market on the planet. I know the good people of Vancouver would like to believe that the Chinese are the reason for such idiotic prices, but by that logic, cities with substantially higher Chinese populations/immigration/real estate investment would be in the same range. Not only that, but other cities' housing prices have been linked to Russian billionaires and Middle East money. Again, I find it hard to belive that Vancouver is attracting the highest amount of real estate investment from those regions.

I've never quite understood how a city with minimal head offices, the worst heroin problem in North America and rain for 6 months of the year can have such an over-priced housing market. Oh well...it's a Hubba Bubba bubble if I've ever seen one.

Anyway, an interesting article below.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/canada/2010/09/01/does-pricey-vancouver-have-a-housing-price-bubble/


There is nothing illogical about it.

First off, Canadians don't look much at the price of housing, they look at the monthly payments, and as long as interest rates stay really low, they are able to get into homes with high price tags.

Vancouver is boxed in by the US border, its geographical constraints and land use policies, so there isn't a lot of new land that can readily be put on the market to lower land prices for housing.

Vancouver (and Toronto to a lesser extent) has attracted foreigners (Chinese) with the financial resources to buy high priced homes.

Vancouver has a long rainy season, but they don't get a lot of snow and the grass remains green all year long, and its summers are pretty much the nicest in the country. Vancouver is a very beautiful place. Toronto has far worse issues with pollution (particularly air) and gridlock, has a long cold winter with lots of snow, summer weather is often too hot and humid.... and it's housing is far from cheap.

There is nothing illogical about it.

First off, Canadians don't look much at the price of housing, they look at the monthly payments, and as long as interest rates stay really low, they are able to get into homes with high price tags.

Vancouver is boxed in by the US border, its geographical constraints and land use policies, so there isn't a lot of new land that can readily be put on the market to lower land prices for housing.

Vancouver (and Toronto to a lesser extent) has attracted foreigners (Chinese) with the financial resources to buy high priced homes.

Vancouver has a long rainy season, but they don't get a lot of snow and the grass remains green all year long, and its summers are pretty much the nicest in the country. Vancouver is a very beautiful place. Toronto has far worse issues with pollution (particularly air) and gridlock, has a long cold winter with lots of snow, summer weather is often too hot and humid.... and it's housing is far from cheap.
Well, I wasn't comparing those two cities, but since you brought it up...you're actually proving my point a bit. The illogical part from a 'Chinese influence' standpoint is that Toronto's Chinese population is larger than Vancouver's with larger numbers of Chinese immigrants on an annual basis. It's safe to assume that it's a similar type of Chinese immigrant to each city, so that theory is out the window. No one has ever been able to produce hard stats as to the 'wealthy Chinese' buying up insanely priced real estate; it's just what you hear from the media and real estate agents with no reliable backup source. Both San Francisco and NYC have higher Chinese populations and higher densities, yet Vancouver's real estate is on par with or has exceeded NYC's right now. Yes, obviously, Vancouver has natural beauty but even that, combined with some restricted land use policies still doesn't seem to square with the level of price that it's at. Even with low interest rates, a $700K mortgage is not a bargain given the average household income in Vancouver - which is why it eats into 80% of people's income right now.

My point is that even with all the things you mentioned, it's still way out wack and no matter how many commissioned real estate agents justify it, it doesn't make a lick of sense to me. That said, it's obviously a reality, but reality doesn't mean logical or sustainable.

Well, I wasn't comparing those two cities, but since you brought it up...you're actually proving my point a bit. The illogical part from a 'Chinese influence' standpoint is that Toronto's Chinese population is larger than Vancouver's with larger numbers of Chinese immigrants on an annual basis. It's safe to assume that it's a similar type of Chinese immigrant to each city, so that theory is out the window. No one has ever been able to produce hard stats as to the 'wealthy Chinese' buying up insanely priced real estate; it's just what you hear from the media and real estate agents with no reliable backup source.

Actually, the only think that is illogical in all of this is your thinking. First, the absolute numbers of Chinese in Toronto relative the number in Vancouver is irrelevant... it's the percentages that matter, and Vancouver has a far higher percentage of Chinese that comprise its population.

Toronto: 537,060 Chinese
Vancouver: 402,000 "

"As of 2001, almost 75% of the Chinese population in Canada lived in either Toronto or Vancouver. The Chinese population was 17% in Vancouver and 9% in Toronto."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Canadian

So as of 2001, Chinese made up nearly double the percentage of the population of Vancouver than that of Toronto.... So they have a much larger impact in Vancouver.

Anecdotally, I have a close Chinese-Canadian friend in Vancouver who is very knowledgeable about this very issue as well as the Vancouver real estate market, and he has often told me that the really wealthy Chinese go to Vancouver.... the ones who need a job to support themselves go to Toronto.



Both San Francisco and NYC have higher Chinese populations and higher densities, yet Vancouver's real estate is on par with or has exceeded NYC's right now. Yes, obviously, Vancouver has natural beauty but even that, combined with some restricted land use policies still doesn't seem to square with the level of price that it's at. Even with low interest rates, a $700K mortgage is not a bargain given the average household income in Vancouver - which is why it eats into 80% of people's income right now.

My point is that even with all the things you mentioned, it's still way out wack and no matter how many commissioned real estate agents justify it, it doesn't make a lick of sense to me. That said, it's obviously a reality, but reality doesn't mean logical or sustainable.

Again, absolute numbers isn't what matter, Chinese make a much bigger percentage of the pop. (for Vancouver) than for either S.F. or NY.

When something gets out of whack on price, before long, it will come back down.... prices softened for a few months early into the recession and then rocketed back up... that fact suggests that Vancouver's prices are right about where they should be considering the current supply and demand situation.

Don't get me wrong, there are far better places that Vancouver to invest in real estate... currently I'm looking a buying a few homes in Las Vegas and/or Phoenix.

This excellent site shows how Vancouver's prices recovered (click on the city).... similar to Toronto's recovery:

http://www.housepriceindex.ca/

Anecdotally, I have a close Chinese-Canadian friend in Vancouver who is very knowledgeable about this very issue as well as the Vancouver real estate market, and he has often told me that the really wealthy Chinese go to Vancouver.... the ones who need a job to support themselves go to Toronto.



I think that may involve a bit of wishful thinking on the part of your friend. I wonder what he bases this on other than anecdotal tales? People with money tend to go where the business has money, as not everyone is immigrating to retire. Or, they simply stay in Hong Kong where there is lots of dosh.

Anecdotally, I have a close Chinese-Canadian friend in Vancouver who is very knowledgeable about this very issue as well as the Vancouver real estate market, and he has often told me that the really wealthy Chinese go to Vancouver.... the ones who need a job to support themselves go to Toronto.

Hilarious. Everything is anecdotal. If someone can provide some actual stats around this 'Chinese phenomenon' I'd be more inclined to buy it. You're making it sound like the Chinese immigrants to Toronto are in desperate search of work, which is absurd.

Go to page 29 of this link. It's a little dated but unless you can show me something that indicates millionaire Chinese immigrants are scooping up Vancouver real estate by the thousands, this table contradicts everything we've been hearing about the Chinese influence. There is simply not enough hard evidence to suggest that the Chinese are responsible for such overly inflated prices.

http://ceris.metropolis.net/virtual%20library/community/2004%20CWPs/CWP30_WangLo.pdf

I'm not suggesting for a second that house prices in Vancouver should be cheap (obviously not), but the level they are at is not consistent with the local economy, the demographics or the average income. Get your friend to present some solid facts around this Chinese investor/proportion/immigration argument and I'll happily change my mind.

Top 10: Richest Neighbourhoods
askmen.com

If you can afford to live in your city's richest neighbourhood, or even your country's, why not do it? Canada's richest neighbourhoods boast life and luxury in equal doses, and there's no shortage of choice from coast to coast.

When it comes to the creme de la creme, though, where should you go to find the country's most esteemed living quarters? We've narrowed down the 10 richest neighbourhoods in Canada based on their average home value and household income. So, if you're thinking about indulging in somewhere special for your next living quarters or you want to go sightseeing through some of the country's most esteemed dwellings, look no further than these top 10 richest neighbourhoods in Canada.

10. Tuxedo
Winnipeg, Manitoba

The Tuxedo district is quickly establishing itself as a high-priced Canadian hotbed for luxury property buyers. Approximately seven kilometres from downtown, Tuxedo boasts the city's most substantial property values. The appeal of the neighbourhood dates back to the early 20th century when Winnipeg experienced a population boom. Tuxedo became a desirable neighbourhood because of the nearby Assiniboine Park, a local streetcar route and, more recently, its lakeside views and treed lots. Many heritage homes remain intact while modern construction takes place in Tuxedo's southern area.

As the city's most affluent area, Assiniboine South (which includes Tuxedo) carried an average household income, in 2006, of $58,000, more than 1.5 times the city average. It's a safe bet that Tuxedo's average income is higher and nowhere is that more apparent than in its real estate growth. In the last two years, Tuxedo's average home has jumped from an average selling price of $383,000 in 2005 to more than $500,000.


9.Upper Mount Royal
Calgary, Alberta

A brisk walk from downtown Calgary will take you to Mount Royal, located in the Elbow River Valley. Comprised of Upper and Lower Mount Royal, the Upper half is home to Calgary's richest dwellings. More than 2,600 people live there in an area originally developed by the Canadian Pacific Railway and Massachusetts's Olmstead brothers. Because of the American influence, many American businessmen took residence in the area, which was first coined "American Hill" before being changed to Mount Royal. Even now, almost 30% of Upper Mount Royal's residents are American.

Upper Mount Royal's median household income stood at more than $127,000 in 2000, and in 2007, the average home sold for $1.6 million. Most of Upper Mount Royal's houses are family dwellings, with some houses that are more than a century old. The area is known for curvy streets, sizable lots and a generous amount of trees. The hill location means that you can easily stare at the Calgary skyline from an Upper Mount Royal window, making the allure of living there even stronger.


8. The Uplands
Victoria, British Columbia

In the heart of Victoria's Oak Bay municipality are The Uplands, where you can spot some of the country's priciest homes. A rich garden suburb that took shape in the early 1900s under the guidance of expert architect John Olmstead, The Uplands are unique for large estates, winding streets and globed lamps that perfectly blend in with the local greenery. The homes here spare no expense and they often include manicured gardens, which are usually a short walk from Uplands Park and the nearby ocean.

Although 2001's average Oak Bay income was $57,000 and 2006's average Victoria home went for about $520,000, we know that the Uplands' contributions to these figures are much higher. It's not uncommon to see waterfront estates and English manors carrying a $15 million-plus price tag. Even more extravagant than those multimillion dollar homes is the $28.5 million "Sweet Pea" estate, a 2.4-acre oceanfront property, complete with a private pool.


7. West Vancouver
Vancouver, British Columbia

With a population of just over 42,000, the people of West Vancouver live close to the city's northern tip. Close to tranquil Howe Sound and Burrard Inlet, a few of the homes here were built in the 1930s, with many more coming during the real estate boom of the '70s and '80s. Currently, homes go for as high as $20 million, with the average asking price falling around $1.25 million. Out of the approximately 11,000 homes there, more than 70% are valued at more than $1 million. Many are featured in the district's posh British Properties.

West Vancouver also includes the largest concentration of retirees in British Columbia with over 20% of its residents over the age of 65. Even so, the average income among men in this district is over $86,000 annually. With easy access to Cypress and Grouse Mountain, a solid array of greenery and a short drive from the downtown core, West Van residents can live large and prosper.


6. Shaughnessy
Vancouver, British Columbia

1907 marked the beginning of Shaughnessy, courtesy of the Canada Pacific Rail, which was the country's prized real estate developer at the time. Named after CPR President Thomas Shaughnessy, this centrally located Vancouver neighbourhood was created to provide some posh dwellings outside of the downtown core. Architect Frederick Todd also infused it with a hint of English Renaissance style, giving the 447-hectare area a lot of style and, ultimately, a lot of history. More than 50% of Shaughnessy's spacious homes were constructed before the end of World War II, a percentage that is twice what it is in other areas of the city.

With an average income of $136,000, Shaughnessy is considered to be Vancouver's wealthiest neighbourhood. Its houses fall on large lots that are often more than 1.5 acres and the price range lands between $3.5 million and $11 million. In recent times, Shaughnessy was home to a Hollywood power couple, as Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn enjoyed the confines of a 7,000-square-foot, five-bedroom, eight-bathroom home during their son's three-year hockey stint in Vancouver.


5. Rockliffe Park
Ottawa, Ontario

Formed in the 19th century, Rockliffe Park was a long-time Ontario village until it joined Ottawa officially in 2001. Just northeast of downtown, with the Ottawa River in full view, Rockliffe Park has more than a few sights, including McKay Lake and the unique Ottawa Rockery. Originally a nesting place for the powers that be in Canada's industrial sector, the cottages and estates of old remain intact alongside modern large-scale homes.

Rockliffe Park now houses just over 2,000 people, with many of them notable in the political and business spectrum. Rockliffe Park is the home of Canada's Official Opposition leader, while many international ambassadors also make their homes there. The ex-Corel CEO Michael Cowplan also owned dwellings in Rockliffe Park in the form of an eye-popping golden house. Since privacy is the essence in a neighbourhood like this, there's a distinct lack of sidewalks in Rockliffe Park. There is no shortage of money, though, as the 2000 average household income was $209,000. As far as the housing market goes, more than 50 Rockliffe homes have been sold in the past three years for an asking price of more than $1 million, and one was even sold for $12.8 million in 2003.


4. Forest Hill
Toronto, Ontario

John Wickson was building a summer retreat in 1860 when he decided to call the area Forest Hill. The name stuck, and it now holds a population of over 23,000. Forest Hill's short distance from downtown Toronto makes it attractive for people who want to live close by without the hustle and bustle. The adjoining Upper and Lower Forest Hill areas only add to the area's flavour, offering shopping and dining of the highest order.

Much of Forest Hill's original natural beauty and highbrow architecture from the days of Mr. Wickson remain intact, thanks to laws requiring that architects design each house with trees and shrubbery in front of every lot. This has given the area a blend of architectural symmetry and green consistency that Forest Hill's citizens treasure. Those treasures have grown with recent household incomes reaching a $171,000 average and the typical Forest Hill Home selling for just over $1 million in 2007.


3. Bridle Path
Toronto, Ontario

Originally farmland until 1929, Bridle Path began to take shape after the construction of the Bayview Bridge. Land mogul Hubert Page subsequently built the first home there and encouraged Toronto's elite to live in this secluded sanctuary. Some 80 years later, Bridle Path still holds few roads and is enveloped by parks and the peaceful Don River Valley. Most dwellings in Bridle Path are sizable, with lots between two and four acres and homes offering up to 20,000 square feet.

Bridle Path has been home to some big houses and some big names. Conrad Black and Moses Znaimer have lived here, and musical icon Prince bought a $5.5 million home in Bridle Path, but he isn't a visible part of the community. With the average house selling for upwards of $2.1 million (2006) and an average household income of $375,000 (as recorded in 2001), the citizens of Bridle Path can certainly afford their enclosures.


2. Westmount
Montreal, Quebec

This Montreal enclave came to life in 1874, when it was founded by British Anglophones. Although it remains a predominantly English area, this ritzy neighbourhood has blossomed into a multilingual and multi-ethnic community of 20,000.

Summit Circle is the peak of Westmount's real estate prowess, hosting the neighbourhood's priciest homes, which include dwellings of the powerful Bronfman and Molson families. The neighbourhood also hosts the longest running rugby club on the continent, the largest college in the province and the high-class shopping haven, Westmount Square.

Westmount is the birthplace of some prestigious names with William Shatner, Caroline Rhea and Leonard Cohen among them. As of 2001, the median family income was over $190,000 with most people being employed in management positions. Not surprisingly, 2007 Westmount housing prices stay close to the $1 million mark on average, with higher priced options being French Chateau-style dwellings with a multitude of rooms and stone construction.


1. Rosedale
Toronto, Ontario

Named for its wild roses, Rosedale has been considered the most affluent neighbourhood in Toronto for more than a century. First discovered in the 1820s by William and Mary Jarvis, the area's winding streets were inspired by the paths that Mary used while horseback riding. When the Jarvis family sold their property in 1864, the wheels were put in motion for residential developments. Now, Rosedale is home to Tudor and Georgian style for the 7,300 plus who live there.

Rosedale is the place where Torontonians aspire to live. The city is close by, but the surrounding parkland and ravines act as a shield, giving the neighbourhood its own quiet character. Physical barriers and specialized routes also act to reduce traffic. With an average 2006 home selling price of $2 million and an average household income of $444,000, Rosedale is home to the best of the best. Among them are singer Gordon Lightfoot and businessman Michael Thomson. If Rosedale's allure is good enough for them, it's good enough to be at the top of our list too.

Anecdotally, I have a close Chinese-Canadian friend in Vancouver who is very knowledgeable about this very issue as well as the Vancouver real estate market, and he has often told me that the really wealthy Chinese go to Vancouver.... the ones who need a job to support themselves go to Toronto.
I think that may involve a bit of wishful thinking on the part of your friend. I wonder what he bases this on other than anecdotal tales? People with money tend to go where the business has money, as not everyone is immigrating to retire. Or, they simply stay in Hong Kong where there is lots of dosh.

It's definitely not a myth if that's what you're suggesting. Most people don't immigrate to Vancouver to retire, but a huge percentage of Chinese in this city are in the position of being able to live here for the lifestyle at the expense of potential income that could have been made elsewhere. That's why on any given weekday, the restaurants are full at 11am in the morning as the housewives have dimsum while dressed in their tennis gear. A number of them will work a few hours at a bakery or dingy clothing store that sell t-shirts for $300 so that they'll get the tax benefits without dealing with any actual business. They're simply in no hurry to make money. That's why statistical incomes are low while everyone has a bmw.

I find it insane that for the 7300 residence in Rosedale the average household income is $444,000.

It's definitely not a myth if that's what you're suggesting. Most people don't immigrate to Vancouver to retire, but a huge percentage of Chinese in this city are in the position of being able to live here for the lifestyle at the expense of potential income that could have been made elsewhere. That's why on any given weekday, the restaurants are full at 11am in the morning as the housewives have dimsum while dressed in their tennis gear. A number of them will work a few hours at a bakery or dingy clothing store that sell t-shirts for $300 so that they'll get the tax benefits without dealing with any actual business. They're simply in no hurry to make money. That's why statistical incomes are low while everyone has a bmw.
Yet another anecdote.
Please, someone produce some stats around Chinese influence on that market to explain the disproportionately high real estate values. Otherwise it's all speculation.

Just looking at West Van alone, an average household income of approx. $100K doesn't explain those house prices. Anyway you slice it, it's illogical. Doesn't mean there's no explanation but it's time someone should present something substantial other than 'my friend told me' or 'you see busy restaurants with rich housewives'. That happens in every city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Vancouver

I think that may involve a bit of wishful thinking on the part of your friend. I wonder what he bases this on other than anecdotal tales? People with money tend to go where the business has money, as not everyone is immigrating to retire. Or, they simply stay in Hong Kong where there is lots of dosh.

Chinese with money don't have to come to Canada to make it... they can make much more at home. So the fact that TO is a bigger business city than Van. is really beside the point.

They buy Vancouver because they like the place.

Either wishful thinking or the denial of the attractiveness of a place to others where one does not live them self is in action here.... I think more the latter.

Yet another anecdote.
Please, someone produce some stats around Chinese influence on that market to explain the disproportionately high real estate values. Otherwise it's all speculation.

Besides the sheer political incorrectness of such a hypothetical study, it's interesting to hear this coming from someone who insists that all reports (the ones he doesn't like, that is) are biased, inaccurate and carry an agenda... especially considering all the instances here where people cite personal experience as proof that the stats are wrong...

Hilarious. Everything is anecdotal. If someone can provide some actual stats around this 'Chinese phenomenon' I'd be more inclined to buy it. You're making it sound like the Chinese immigrants to Toronto are in desperate search of work, which is absurd.

Rigorous analysis is seldom required to prove the patently obvious.... except on this thread it would appear.

The Chinese have had such a huge impact on Vancouver's real estate that some high rise condos (high end stuff) were not even marketed in Vancouver... just in China/HK, because the market in Asia for such product is bigger than in Vancouver itself.... so everyone understands that the local economy/incomes can't support many of the projects.



Go to page 29 of this link. It's a little dated but unless you can show me something that indicates millionaire Chinese immigrants are scooping up Vancouver real estate by the thousands, this table contradicts everything we've been hearing about the Chinese influence. There is simply not enough hard evidence to suggest that the Chinese are responsible for such overly inflated prices.

http://ceris.metropolis.net/virtual%20library/community/2004%20CWPs/CWP30_WangLo.pdf

I'm not suggesting for a second that house prices in Vancouver should be cheap (obviously not), but the level they are at is not consistent with the local economy, the demographics or the average income. Get your friend to present some solid facts around this Chinese investor/proportion/immigration argument and I'll happily change my mind.

Your reference has nothing whatsoever to do with what we are talking about.:ohno:

This reference does:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/in-vancouver-the-third-wave-hits/article1607761/

"“In terms of purchasing power, they go for the big residential single detached homes — that’s all we’re hearing, especially in regard to high end product,” says Mr. Wong, who has had to learn Mandarin as a result.

“It’s very much a reflection of the new wealth. China is no longer a sleeping giant – it’s a giant."

“Realtors on the West Side will tell you about 30 per cent of sales are from the Chinese market,” he says.

Marketer Bob Rennie says the majority of high-end shoppers these days are from China. Based on a survey done by his office, Mr. Rennie says more than 60 per cent of West Side sales over $1.7 million are by new Mainland Chinese purchasers. The pressure on the high end of the market could have an overall affect on affordability, says Mr. Rennie.

Visas’ Vincent Chen says more than 3,000 Chinese families migrate to Canada under the business category every year.

“At least 60 per cent of these families choose Vancouver to settle down — and a major part of them will buy property there, sooner or later,” says Mr. Chen, from his Shanghai office.

So there are some of the stats that you so cherish... funny how they match up with the anecdotes.

The main thing people seem to be forgetting is that when you ad 40,000 new immigrants to Vancouver it will cause housing prices to jump up much faster then when you ad the same amount to Toronto. the Chinese immigrants in Toronto (which there are more of) are not poor people. They have chosen to live outside of the city for the most part in places like Markham and Richmond hill. This whole notion that the elite Chinese choose Vancouver is absurd.

This whole notion that the elite Chinese choose Vancouver is absurd.

Even when we provide independent evidence that this is so, people will still deny it... apparently because it contracts their preconceived ideas.

Visas’ Vincent Chen says more than 3,000 Chinese families migrate to Canada under the business category every year.

“At least 60 per cent of these families choose Vancouver to settle down — and a major part of them will buy property there, sooner or later,” says Mr. Chen, from his Shanghai office.

Business category=Elite.

Well, there we go. Mr Chen, whoever he is, has spoken. Now possibly we can get back on track.

The main thing people seem to be forgetting is that when you ad 40,000 new immigrants to Vancouver it will cause housing prices to jump up much faster then when you ad the same amount to Toronto. the Chinese immigrants in Toronto (which there are more of) are not poor people. They have chosen to live outside of the city for the most part in places like Markham and Richmond hill. This whole notion that the elite Chinese choose Vancouver is absurd.

The average house price in Richmond Hill is $430,000
The average house price in Richmond is $1.04 million

The 905 is by no means a destination of choice :lol: forget the overwhelming visual evidence that clearly distinguishes the 2 places, even common sense would suggest that the demographic is somewhat different...
Homerism would be ok if it's based on some semblance of truth...

I can't imagine living in either, regardless of how "expensive" the bungalow might be.

The average house price in Richmond Hill is $430,000
The average house price in Richmond is $1.04 million

forget the overwhelming visual evidence distinguishing the 2 places, even common sense would suggest that the demographic is somewhat different
homerism would be ok if it's based on some semblance of truth...

Ah, but "common sense" is just the sum of anecdotes... so it can't be trusted.... maybe that's why there is such a lack of it.

Wow... this pissing contest is dreary by any standards of regional bickering.

The average house price in Richmond Hill is $430,000
The average house price in Richmond is $1.04 million

The 905 is by no means a destination of choice :lol: forget the overwhelming visual evidence that clearly distinguishes the 2 places, even common sense would suggest that the demographic is somewhat different...
Homerism would be ok if it's based on some semblance of truth...


Ah, now I get your obsession with having the most expensive housing. You equate higher prices with quality urbanity (or generally being "superior"?). How quaint. :)

This is the last thing I'm going to say on this topic because it's obvious that everyone has differing opinions on this. Articles in the Globe are hardly hard facts. Mr. Chen has nicely overstated the number of investor visa applicants by about 33% and lord knows where he got his 60% figure from.

http://www.visabureau.com/canada/investor/news/19-08-2010/chinese-now-top-seekers-of-canadian-investor-immigration.aspx

No one is disputing that Chinese buyers have AN influence on a market, just like any other wealthy demographic. But, to suggest that somehow Chinese buyers can drive up a market to that extent is ridiculous. The article below is similar to the one posted by oceanmdx. Wealthy Chinese are buying up properties everywhere (including Markham and Richmond Hill) but the value is consistent with real estate in a dynamic economy. Doesn't mean that this Globe article is any more 'accurate' than the other one...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/chinese-stoke-torontos-condo-boom/article1795047/

some high rise condos (high end stuff) were not even marketed in Vancouver... just in China/HK, because the market in Asia for such product is bigger than in Vancouver itself

That's not unique to Vancouver nor does it explain house prices substantially higher than cities with thriving economies in multiple sectors.

One also to remember that Vancouver is a relatively low income city but has a massive gap between the rich and the poor.
The rich can buy houses at obscene prices and that brings up the general cost of all the houses. Vancouver more than any other city in the country has a relatively small middle class.
The prices are ridiculous and people always ask "how can they afford it" and the answer is quite simple....they can't. Home ownership in Van is the lowest in the country and for those under 40 it is a whopping 40% below the national average.
Too restrictive land policies, developers and real estate agents that bribe politicians about zoning to keep prices high Real estate agents who constantly tell buyers that "if you don't get in now you never will" to keep up demand artificially. Developers who cut back on construction deliberatly too keep a constant artificially low housing stock. They constantly state how they can't build houses for less than X amount unlike the rest of the planet.
The "profit is everything" BC government allows cities to create huge waterfront housing time shares. They block all options for people who actually live in the city, have a grotesque habit of inflating all property values, and they put more effort in trying to appease the developers and part time tourists than the citizens of the city themselves.
Kelowna is awash with this where the Waterfront is only for the living and the average citizens lives across the bridge in suburban Westbank most of which is mobile home parks.
This has been done in all Southern Interior and Van Island cities.
BC has become a resort province. It is home to two types of people, those who enjoy the resort lifestlye the province has to offer and the other 90% who work for them at minimum wage.
Yes, much of this is also due to the Chinese "investors" who completely warp the housing market. 20 years ago it was those from HK but now from the Chinese mainland.
I remember in the late 90s when a 30 story glass tower went up downtown and sold out in just one day.......................because it was advertised and marketed in Hong Kong BEFORE in Vancouver! When people got in line in Vancouver most of the condos were already sold. The media got a hold of it and people were upset but it still happens.
I knew a guy who lined up for a chance at another condo at 9am. He was one of the first in the building, really licked one suite and wanted to buy it but couldn't..............by 9:20 it had been purchased by someone in mainland China. He was ticked off but say another suite and wanted buy that one only half an hour later but the real estate agent said it was already sold.........to the same buyer.

So what duhleung is trying to say is that the wealthy go to Vancouver and that's why the houses are so expensive. That makes a lot of sense. (insert typical lol or laughing smiley here).

It's supply and demand. Land costs are higher in Vancouver then in the burbs of Toronto, that's a no brainer dleung. Just because somebody purchases a 4 bedroom house in Markham for $600,000 doesn't mean they have any less money in their bank account then somebody who buys the same size house in Richmond for over 1 million, in fact they might have more. Like most of your threads you should just come right in the beginning and place Vancouver on that pedestal you want us all to read about, instead you just beat around the bush and waste everyones time.


What you should have just named this thread - Vancouver Canada's Superior Housing Market

Of Canada's 1,349,000 Canadians of Chinese descent 433,000 that are deemed rich live in B.C. All the poverty cases, all 645,000 are in Ontario according dleung. I'll let my friends know how poor they are. I'll also find out why on earth they chose to come here over Vancouver, what were they thinking? In fact I need to ask my parents the same thing as to why they dumped my ass in this hole of a city/province. Of the rest 138,000 Chinese Canadians in Alberta, and 92,000 Chinese Candiens in Quebec dleung will have to let us know if they are rich or not. Judging by the housing prices in Montreal and Calgary they must be of the food stamp collecting class like in Ontario.

dleung, I hear you are living in Toronto right now. Did you run out of money? According to you that's the only reason why anybody would want to be in this wasteland. As soon as I save enough pennies I know I'll be moving to the sunshine coast. Toronto sucks!

This is the last thing I'm going to say on this topic because it's obvious that everyone has differing opinions on this. Articles in the Globe are hardly hard facts. Mr. Chen has nicely overstated the number of investor visa applicants by about 33% and lord knows where he got his 60% figure from.

http://www.visabureau.com/canada/investor/news/19-08-2010/chinese-now-top-seekers-of-canadian-investor-immigration.aspx

ROTFLMAO... Your source of info is an immigration consulting company based in the UK made to look like an official government of Canada "bureau". If Mr. Chen is an acceptable source of information to the editorial staff of the Globe & Mail, that's good enough for me until you come up with a more authoritative source....

"The Canadian Visa Bureau is a division of Visa Bureau Ltd, an independent UK company that provides visa and immigration services to Canada.

So don't worry about where Mr. Chen gets his info from, worry about where you get it from!

Wealthy Chinese are buying up properties everywhere (including Markham and Richmond Hill) but the value is consistent with real estate in a dynamic economy. Doesn't mean that this Globe article is any more 'accurate' than the other one...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/chinese-stoke-torontos-condo-boom/article1795047/

I already saw that article... I love this part: "“Their impact is huge,” says Stephen Wong, president and founder of Living Realty Inc. in Markham."

So their impact is huge in TO.... We're trying to get you guys to understand that the Chinese impact in Vancouver is even bigger because their concentration is double.... and that's not even considering the impact of their greater wealth out west.:)

One also to remember that Vancouver is a relatively low income city but has a massive gap between the rich and the poor.

No, the last time I checked, Vancouver was 5% above the average income in Canada.... Toronto is only about 10% higher than average, while Calgary is 50% higher than the Canadian average!

http://www.omaccanada.ca/en/market/vancouver/default.omac

Kelowna is awash with this where the Waterfront is only for the living and the average citizens lives across the bridge in suburban Westbank most of which is mobile home parks.

Well I hope that Kelowna's waterfront is only for the living... wouldn't want dead bodies floating around. :)

I read through all your unsubstantiated claims, but I have to stop here. I'm pretty familiar with Westbank (now called West Kelowna) and to say the it is largely mobile home parks is just nonsense.... Westbank has some of the most beautiful neighborhoods in Canada.... check out the area around Mission Hill Estate Winery sometime.

I already saw that article... I love this part: "“Their impact is huge,” says Stephen Wong, president and founder of Living Realty Inc. in Markham."

The point was that each article and each source is equally vague and opinionated...but thanks for missing the point. Some dude in an office in Shanghai has as much credibility as a source in the UK that deals with the visa applications so in the absence of Mr. Chen's source, you're still yet to prove any hard facts.

Too restrictive land policies, developers and real estate agents that bribe politicians about zoning to keep prices high Real estate agents who constantly tell buyers that "if you don't get in now you never will" to keep up demand artificially. Developers who cut back on construction deliberately too keep a constant artificially low housing stock. They constantly state how they can't build houses for less than X amount unlike the rest of the planet.
The "profit is everything" BC government allows cities to create huge waterfront housing time shares. They block all options for people who actually live in the city, have a grotesque habit of inflating all property values

This is the closest thing to an explanation that anyone has been able to produce. Thanks!

This is an article from Landcor. Go to pages 20 and 23 for quick reference. If anyone seriously expects me to believe that the 977 properties owned by Asians (which includes Hong Kong, mainland China, Singapore, Japan and Australia) are responsible for the outrageous property prices in Vancouver, you’re living in a dream world.

https://www.landcor.com/market/reports/Metro_Vancouver_2010_Report.pdf

This dude sums it up nicely…

http://financialinsights.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/chinese-investors-in-vancouver-is-the-ham-story-more-than-just-hogwash/

ROTFLMAO... Your source of info is an immigration consulting company based in the UK made to look like an official government of Canada "bureau". If Mr. Chen is an acceptable source of information to the editorial staff of the Globe & Mail, that's good enough for me until you come up with a more authoritative source....

"The Canadian Visa Bureau is a division of Visa Bureau Ltd, an independent UK company that provides visa and immigration services to Canada.

So don't worry about where Mr. Chen gets his info from, worry about where you get it from!



I already saw that article... I love this part: "“Their impact is huge,” says Stephen Wong, president and founder of Living Realty Inc. in Markham."

So their impact is huge in TO.... We're trying to get you guys to understand that the Chinese impact in Vancouver is even bigger because their concentration is double.... and that's not even considering the impact of their greater wealth out west.:)

The average house price in Richmond Hill is $430,000
The average house price in Richmond is $1.04 million

The 905 is by no means a destination of choice :lol: forget the overwhelming visual evidence that clearly distinguishes the 2 places, even common sense would suggest that the demographic is somewhat different...
Homerism would be ok if it's based on some semblance of truth...



Ok, we get it, Homer. The richest Chinese people moved to Vancouver and created this new "status symbol" of little two bedroom wooden stucco bungalows in Vancouver costing one million dollars each.

You win.

I guess.

The richest Chinese people moved to Vancouver and created this new "status symbol" of little two bedroom wooden stucco bungalows in Vancouver costing one million dollars each.



That's about right... about a week ago I was watching TV news about a dilapidated house in Vancouver which they showed.... it was so bad you couldn't live in it, but it was across from some park, said to be in a good area. IIFC, it was listed at around $1.1 million, but sold for around $1.6 million - more than $500,000 over the asking price! Obviously, the new owners intend to rip the house down and build a much larger place. A lady a few doors down, found out about the sale, so she listed her place for around $1.3 million (or there about) and got more than $300,000 over her asking price.... she had just bought the place 2-3 months prior.

Vancouver's housing isn't "superior" to that found in southern Ontario, IMO... it's just a lot more expensive for a variety of reasons.... Both are "superior" to housing in Alberta though... that place must be the Centre of the Universe for vinyl siding homes.... yuck.

But what boggles the mind is when people consider grossly overpriced housing to be a civic status symbol. If anything, it leads to a two tier system of the very rich and the very poor. It is DEFINITELY not something that is going to attract internal immigration from within Canada; in fact just the opposite. Of all the things to brag about, this has to be the most wrong-headed.

No, the last time I checked, Vancouver was 5% above the average income in Canada.... Toronto is only about 10% higher than average, while Calgary is 50% higher than the Canadian average!

http://www.omaccanada.ca/en/market/vancouver/default.omac

I don't know about that...

Median personal yearly income as of the 2006 census was $23,682 in Vancouver city and $25,032 in Vancouver CMA. The Canadian average was $25,615. In comparison, Toronto city was $24,544 and the CMA was $26,754.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=5915022&Geo2=PR&Code2=59&Data=Count&SearchText=vancouver&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=933&Geo2=PR&Code2=59&Data=Count&SearchText=vancouver&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=PR&Code1=01&Geo2=PR&Code2=01&Data=Count&SearchText=canada&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=3520005&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=535&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

The point was that each article and each source is equally vague and opinionated...but thanks for missing the point.

No, the point is that you thought that you were quoting a Government of Canada source... but it turned out to be some outfit in the UK promoting immigration to Canada.... and some of the info on that site is actually dead wrong BTW!




This is an article from Landcor. Go to pages 20 and 23 for quick reference. If anyone seriously expects me to believe that the 977 properties owned by Asians (which includes Hong Kong, mainland China, Singapore, Japan and Australia) are responsible for the outrageous property prices in Vancouver, you’re living in a dream world.

https://www.landcor.com/market/reports/Metro_Vancouver_2010_Report.pdf

That information is interesting, but it is largely beside the point that we have been making... Problem is that reference speaks to "foreign" ownership... all the tens of thousands of Chinese who have recently immigrated to BC aren't counted in those figures since they aren't considered to be "foreign" - they have landed immigrant status, if not citizenship already.



This dude sums it up nicely…

http://financialinsights.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/chinese-investors-in-vancouver-is-the-ham-story-more-than-just-hogwash/

Just his opinions, that's all. That dude isn't you, is he? :)

But what boggles the mind is when people consider grossly overpriced housing to be a civic status symbol. If anything, it leads to a two tier system of the very rich and the very poor. It is DEFINITELY not something that is going to attract internal immigration from within Canada; in fact just the opposite. Of all the things to brag about, this has to be the most wrong-headed.

I agree with you... and I have never considered Vancouver's high property values as a good thing or "bragged" about it - just stating what I know. There is no bloody way I'll buy in anytime soon. However, I think we all have to admit that Vancouver is considered to be a highly desirable place to be (at least by enough people to boost prices) since they are paying the very high price just to be there.... you can get a lot more for your money elsewhere, but that elsewhere isn't where a lot of people want to be. One consideration for Vancouver's appeal is the distance... it's a lot closer to Asia than TO.

.... and just for your information, I only spend about 2 months/yr in Vancouver... and I'm not from the place, so I'm certainly no "homer"... but I am more cognizant of the facts than the average Joe here.... whether anyone wants to concede it or not.

I don't know about that...

Median personal yearly income as of the 2006 census was $23,682 in Vancouver city and $25,032 in Vancouver CMA. The Canadian average was $25,615. In comparison, Toronto city was $24,544 and the CMA was $26,754.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=5915022&Geo2=PR&Code2=59&Data=Count&SearchText=vancouver&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=933&Geo2=PR&Code2=59&Data=Count&SearchText=vancouver&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=PR&Code1=01&Geo2=PR&Code2=01&Data=Count&SearchText=canada&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=3520005&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMA&Code1=535&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&Data=Count&SearchText=toronto&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

Of course you are comparing 2006 data with 2010 estimates.... Vancouver is by no means a "poor" city. You also have to look at assets... not just reported income. A lot of wealthy people have low incomes... but they are very asset rich.

"Vancouver remains Canada's wealthiest city:"

"Although house prices in Vancouver fell an average of 11 per cent in 2008, or nearly $57,000, the city's average household net worth was $592,851, still $30,000 greater than in its nearest rival, Toronto.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/article977512.ece

Just his opinions, that's all. That dude isn't you, is he?

No definitely not me. You're right, it's just his opinions with a different perspective, that's all.

Problem is that reference speaks to "foreign" ownership... all the tens of thousands of Chinese who have recently immigrated to BC aren't counted in those figures since they aren't considered to be "foreign" - they have landed immigrant status, if not citizenship already.

It's specifically the 'foreign' component that Vancouverites have been touting as the reason why the real estate is so high, that's why the article is valuable. Your comment implies that the wealthiest of the wealthy Chinese have settled in Vancouver whereas the 'average income' have chosen to settle in other cities. And, no I'm not comparing Toronto and Vancouver, nor did I do that in the beginning. Again, show me some real numbers and I'll buy it.

To be honest, I'm not sure how this came to be an attack, as such, on Vancouver, because no one has denied that a significant amount of people love the Vancouver lifestyle and have chosen to settle there - obviously. But this notion that it somehow is THE beacon of ultra-wealthy foreign real estate investment, unique to it, is ludicrous.

No, the point is that you thought that you were quoting a Government of Canada source... but it turned out to be some outfit in the UK promoting immigration to Canada.... and some of the info on that site is actually dead wrong BTW!

Umm, no, I was well aware of what I was quoting. The point was quoting a source that was just as reliable/unreliable as Chen.

^^ No, you said: "his is an article from Landcor. Go to pages 20 and 23 for quick reference. If anyone seriously expects me to believe that the 977 properties owned by Asians (which includes Hong Kong, mainland China, Singapore, Japan and Australia) are responsible for the outrageous property prices in Vancouver, you’re living in a dream world."

No one is claiming that 977 properties owned by foreign Asians (purchased over many years BTW, not just in one year) ... has affected average property prices in Vancouver.... we are referring to the tens of thousands of Chinese that have bought real estate there... none of them are included in that study! It's just nuts that you think we have suggesting any significant influence coming from 977 foreign owned properties in a city with hundreds of thousands of housing units.

^^ No, you said: "his is an article from Landcor. Go to pages 20 and 23 for quick reference. If anyone seriously expects me to believe that the 977 properties owned by Asians (which includes Hong Kong, mainland China, Singapore, Japan and Australia) are responsible for the outrageous property prices in Vancouver, you’re living in a dream world."

No one is claiming that 977 properties owned by foreign Asians (purchased over many years BTW, not just in one year) ... has affected average property prices in Vancouver.... we are referring to the tens of thousands of Chinese that have bought real estate there... none of them are included in that study! It's just nuts that you think we have suggesting any significant influence coming from 977 foreign owned properties in a city with hundreds of thousands of housing units.
The Landcor study (which is BC based by the way) is a good guage of foreign property ownership. Every single article, media report, anecdote, etc has harped on the fact that new Asian mega-dollars are what's driving up the price of real estate, so if you're changing your tune now, go ahead, but 10 years ago the average sales price of all residential properties, as per the report was $266K (page 6) which is a hell of a lot more reasonable and more in line with any metric that would measure 'reasonable' real estate values in Vancouver at the time. So the argument that it's now all the settled Chinese who have driven up land values is, again, anecdotal and unsubstantiated. So yes, I'm sticking by my comment around the 977 properties because whether it's one year of data or not it contradicts this absurd notion that China is driving up prices to this extent. For some reason you're making it sound like I'm questioning the actual price of a house. My original comment was that, if you consider what generally drives up real estate in any 'healthy city' Vancouver is a complete outlier and I question the source of and reason behind it. It's baffling. Doesn't mean Vancouver sucks...never said that. We should probably just agree to disagree.

So far, the only one who has come up with a fairly reasonable explanation is ssiguy2. To requote:

Too restrictive land policies, developers and real estate agents that bribe politicians about zoning to keep prices high Real estate agents who constantly tell buyers that "if you don't get in now you never will" to keep up demand artificially. Developers who cut back on construction deliberatly too keep a constant artificially low housing stock. They constantly state how they can't build houses for less than X amount unlike the rest of the planet.
The "profit is everything" BC government allows cities to create huge waterfront housing time shares. They block all options for people who actually live in the city, have a grotesque habit of inflating all property values

Here is more info showing household income among Canada's 15 largets cities in 2010. Proof again that housing costs don't always reflect the wealth of those who inhabit them.

1. Brampton -$72,402
2. Mississauga -$71,393
3. Ottawa - $69,743
4. Calgary - $67,238
5. Surrey - $60,168
6. Edmonton - $57,085
7. Hamilton - $55,312
8. Laval - $54,946
9. Halifax - $54,108
10. London - $53,684
11. Toronto - $52,833
12. Winnipeg - $49,794
13. Vancouver - $47,299
14. Quebec City - $45,770
15. Montreal - $38,201

These figures were part of the feature article in this months Toronto Life magazine called "How did Toronto get so !@£$%&* expensive?"

A little FYI to those that think the wealthy Chinese only move to the west coast, both Brampton and Mississauga have huge immagrant populations.

14. Quebec City - $445,770

:eek:

:eek:


Oops .... $45,770

Here is more info showing household income among Canada's 15 largets cities in 2010. Proof again that housing costs don't always reflect the wealth of those who inhabit them.

1. Brampton -$72,402
2. Mississauga -$71,393
3. Ottawa - $69,743
4. Calgary - $67,238
5. Surrey - $60,168
6. Edmonton - $57,085
7. Hamilton - $55,312
8. Laval - $54,946
9. Halifax - $54,108
10. London - $53,684
11. Toronto - $52,833
12. Winnipeg - $49,794
13. Vancouver - $47,299
14. Quebec City - $45,770
15. Montreal - $38,201

These figures were part of the feature article in this months Toronto Life magazine called "How did Toronto get so !@£$%&* expensive?"

A little FYI to those that think the wealthy Chinese only move to the west coast, both Brampton and Mississauga have huge immagrant populations.

Your list is either bogus or way out of date.

"Families in Calgary brought in $91,570 in 2008, well ahead of the Canadian average of $68,860, the federal agency reported."

Read more: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rGMRW07912QJ:www.vancouversun.com/health/Calgary%2Bleads%2BCanada%2Bmedian%2Bfamily%2Bincome/3537360/story.html+calgary+average+family+income&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com#ixzz1DPDLi53P

Do at least try to understand the difference between income and wealth... they are two very different things.

Your list is either bogus or way out of date.

"Families in Calgary brought in $91,570 in 2008, well ahead of the Canadian average of $68,860, the federal agency reported."

Read more: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rGMRW07912QJ:www.vancouversun.com/health/Calgary%2Bleads%2BCanada%2Bmedian%2Bfamily%2Bincome/3537360/story.html+calgary+average+family+income&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com#ixzz1DPDLi53P

Do at least try to understand the difference between income and wealth... they are two very different things.



Not my list as I posted. Conceivably it is out of date but it was the one used in this months Toronto Life, I think they fail to mention the numbers are AFTER TAX single income averages. Some of you live in a dream world where you declare your opinions to be fact. For the vast majority of people wealth is accumulated through income. I know I know, except for those born rich Chinese that chose Vancouver to live in. The facts do show though that income in Vancouver is far below average and housing prices well above. That is not a good combination, nor is it one to brag about.

Do at least try not to be a condescending jerk in your posts, it doesn't make you come across any smarter then you actually are.

Yea.. it was already established a couple pages back that a large part of the Vancouver demographic is past the point of needing to make money, so going over income statistics over and over again is deliberately avoiding the facts. More relevant to actual wealth is total assets, including savings.

And ACT7, you're 0 for 2 right now :lol: so probably best to quit pretending to have a clue... fortunately your buddies from Tdot are constantly finding new ways to frame the discussion. This is a thread on real estate... you say the stats are wrong; when the stats are proven correct, you say the stats are unjustified; when that's also proven otherwise, it's denounced as a pissing context, status symbol, etc...

And ACT7, you're 0 for 2 right now

Wanna explain where I'm 0 for 2. I admitted being wrong about the method I used to calculate the averages, but that's where it ends. If you bother to read some of the latest posts that contain actual backup, maybe you wouldn't sound like such a tool right now. No one is backing me up based on living in Toronto because this was never a Toronto vs. Vancouver thread which for some reason it has been made out to be. There hasn't been a single piece of hard evidence other than some newspaper articles, real estate agent stories and anecdotes about seeing large numbers of Chinese wives wearing tennis gear that substantiates anything you're saying. If you're that sensitive about trying to have an intelligent conversation about WHY the real estate prices are so out of whack then don't bother. No one in Toronto gives a shit about whether or not the price of a home in Vancouver is more expensive but, as I'm now mentioning for the third time, the only one who has put forth a reasonable explanation is ssiguy.

The average house price in Richmond Hill is $430,000
The average house price in Richmond is $1.04 million

The 905 is by no means a destination of choice :lol: forget the overwhelming visual evidence that clearly distinguishes the 2 places, even common sense would suggest that the demographic is somewhat different...
Homerism would be ok if it's based on some semblance of truth...

The 905 is a destination of choice for Chinese since it's close to Chinese services and amenities. Who would want to drive cross town for decent dim sum? The community is most important. It doesn't mean Chinese in Richmond Hill don't drive around in Porsches and Mercedes like in Richmond. For the older generation, they probably moved to Toronto for better job prospects for their kids. There are many wealthy Chinese families in Richmond Hill. It's from my observation that the Chinese there are mostly from Hong Kong, whereas in other areas of Toronto you will find more of the recent Mainland immigrants.

Anyways, many of the rich Chinese are moving away from Canada altogether. There are almost no immigrants from Hong Kong anymore.

Do at least try not to be a condescending jerk in your posts, it doesn't make you come across any smarter then you actually are.

Please, spare me the tears. I was rather circumspect in my comments considering your weak reasoning throughout this thread.

Wanna explain where I'm 0 for 2. I admitted being wrong...
If you're that sensitive about trying to have an intelligent conversation about WHY the real estate prices are so out of whack then don't bother. No one in Toronto gives a shit about whether or not the price of a home in Vancouver is more expensive but, as I'm now mentioning for the third time, the only one who has put forth a reasonable explanation is ssiguy.

You probably meant "if prices are out of whack"... cuz a conversation that already assumes the conclusion would be rather pointless? I am reminded of some highschool kids with C-minuses preaching about how good grades don't make people smart, are arbitrary, etc. The A students say "no it takes commitment, personal planning skills, etc...", to which the C students say "now you're just bragging". The C students cite some bitter words of widsom from a college dropout, calling it the "only reasonable explaination" why A-students get good grades, notwithstanding the obvious conflict of interest... and follow up with reassurances that they don't give a shit despite all efforts to the contrary...

This sort of highlights the uselessness of partial information. Nothing you say is incorrect, except they are used to counter hard facts...

The 905 is a destination of choice for Chinese since it's close to Chinese services and amenities.
Yes, within the GTA, that is. And likewise, many would "choose" the GTA over say, Richmond... but is that for the lifestyle or is it for better economic opportunities and houses that cost less than half as much?

It doesn't mean Chinese in Richmond Hill don't drive around in Porsches and Mercedes like in Richmond. For the older generation, they probably moved to Toronto for better job prospects for their kids. There are many wealthy Chinese families in Richmond Hill.

All true, just not nearly to the same extent as Richmond. Bottom line, the demographic of a mature suburb that has replaced a large portion of its original houses with custom built homes is quite different from the suburb that is exclusively building tract homes and apartments on virgin land.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5161/g60018g6865.gif

damned if you do, damned if you don't :|

if prices are out of whack

So houses worth 9.5 times the median income and spending 70% of diposable income on house costs is not out of whack???
Good one.

Please, spare me the tears. I was rather circumspect in my comments considering your weak reasoning throughout this thread.


My reasoning? What are you going on about? All I've done is provide a few articles here and there. You need to relax and just be happy that you live in such a wealthy place. The rest of us can only dream of not working and just having cash to waste on over priced houses.

I'm staying out of this thread, I should have known better then to respond in one of dleungs shit shows.

I REALLY do believe that this is the year BC house prices are going to fall.......big time and for several reasons.
First...inflation. Inflation is rising and that was before the problems in Egypt which has already resulted in higher oil prices which will be seen in Feb inflation numbers.
Second.......higher inflation in Canada and the US will result in higher interest rates and it is a given that interest rates will be rising in June. Most are now saying half a percentage point which seems like nothing but is a massive amount when you have massive mortgage debt. It will also result in higher rates for credit and BCers have the highest per capita debt levels {not including the whopping mortgages} , 20% higher than the national average.
Third..........the Chinese government is quickly rising rates to slow it's rising inflation. This will make property investment in BC less appealing in regards to returns.
The rich Albertans have not only stopped coming but are beginning to leave. They can now go to a real winter retreat in Arizona and buy a property there for quite literally one quarter of the price of the Okanagan.
Fourth.................the coming changes in the mortgage rules. 55% of all Canadian mortgages at ridiculous 40 year amortizations where taken out in BC. That went to 35 years and now dropping to 30 years and they are having to qualify for 5 year mortgage rates. Also very importantly the already over indebted BC consumer will not be able to continually use their home equity as a credit card as maximum equity withdraw will decline from 90% to 85% but most importantly will no be backed by CMHC mortgage equity insurance.
Fifth....................unemployment in now ABOVE the national average. It is particularly high in the interior and The Island less Victoria. The BC Credit Counseling Association has stated that "business" is up 40% from this time last year and interest rates haven't even started climbing yet.
All these factors are negative if they happen but because they they are happening within the next 4 months is resulting in the perfect storm for BC housing.
In many grossly inflated priced area I definately see drops of a minimum of 30% to even 40% depending on local economic factors. I don't think any area in the province will get away with anything less than a 20% decline. The over priced markets are the ones that will fall fastest and hardest.
Whether you agree with my predictions on the falling price percentage or not everything I have said is not conjecture but just soild fact. Nothing is up for debate absolutely nothing. You may disagree on it's impact but all the reasons I gave for my predictions are factual.
If you have doubts don't take my word for it but rather the BC Real Estate Board. They manipulate or omit number to make everything look wonderful but even they can't hide the figures that Vancouver prices have dropped every month for the last 5, Kelowna house prices dropped by 5.5%...........just last month! Also last month the price of single family homes in Victoria dropped by a truly staggering $50,000,
All of this before these price declines before the storm is even beginning.
All the clouds have lined up for BC.............the implosion has started.

Ok, we get it, Homer. The richest Chinese people moved to Vancouver and created this new "status symbol" of little two bedroom wooden stucco bungalows in Vancouver costing one million dollars each.

You win.

I guess.

Sarcasm aside, it is the land that is valuable not the house itself. A two bedroom stucco bungalow after being sold for a million dollars would immediately be leveled and the land either subdivided or a much larger house would be built on the property.

I REALLY do believe that this is the year BC is going to go down! (salivates)
That might have sounded reasonable last year or the year before, but not this year. Then again, every year since 2005 was supposed to be "that" year, and this is coming from someone who thinks BC houses don't have basements...

This thread really took off ever since paragraph 5 of post #65 :lol:

I REALLY do believe that this is the year BC house prices are going to fall.......big time and for several reasons.
In many grossly inflated priced area I definately see drops of a minimum of 30% to even 40% depending on local economic factors. I don't think any area in the province will get away with anything less than a 20% decline. The over priced markets are the ones that will fall fastest and hardest.

Whether you agree with my predictions on the falling price percentage or not everything I have said is not conjecture but just soild fact. Nothing is up for debate absolutely nothing. You may disagree on it's impact but all the reasons I gave for my predictions are factual.

If you have doubts don't take my word for it but rather the BC Real Estate Board. They manipulate or omit number to make everything look wonderful but even they can't hide the figures that Vancouver prices have dropped every month for the last 5, Kelowna house prices dropped by 5.5%...........just last month! Also last month the price of single family homes in Victoria dropped by a truly staggering $50,000,
All of this before these price declines before the storm is even beginning.
All the clouds have lined up for BC.............the implosion has started.


Use this site for the facts (year to year comparisons): http://www.crea.ca/public/news_stats/statistics.htm

Victoria is down about $25,000, but Vancouver is up by $73,000 (a way more important market). So far BC real estate looks solid on the whole from a year ago.... I don't share your sense of doom.

I do agree that Phoenix is seriously cheaper than the Okanagan.... BTW... Kelowna average house prices are flat from a year ago.

BC residential prices have continued to go up... not down: http://www.bcrea.bc.ca/economics/trends/Province_lg.gif

Mystery European buys ‘the Castle’ home for $17.5-million

A historic stone mansion at 174 Teddington Park Avenue has been sold for $17.5-million, just three years after investors paid $13.5-million for the property and sunk another $5-million into renovations.

Kris and Margaret Isberg also severed a 100 x 190-foot lot from the site as part of the sale, squeezing another $6-million out of the property and ensuring a tidy $5-million profit on their investment.

...

Built in 1931, the 15,000-square-foot home was designed by architect John Lyle for industrialist Frederick Cowan. Mr. Lyle’s work is hard to miss in Toronto – it includes Union Station, the Royal Canadian Yacht Club and the Royal Alexandra Theatre.

...

The Teddington Park listing saw inquiries from agents in Germany, Malaysia, China and the United States. How big an effect these buyers are having on the market is difficult to gauge – some agents suggest as much as 10 per cent of Toronto’s luxury house market is comprised of foreign buyers.

“Nobody really knows how many foreign investors there are,” said Barry Lyon, senior partner and president of real estate consulting firm N. Barry Lyon Consultants Ltd. in Toronto. “But these are worldly buyers – they like the calm and safety of Toronto, they like the ongoing growth. And they certainly like the cosmopolitan nature of the city.”



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/mystery-european-buys-the-castle-home-for-175-million/article1901542/

Yesterday, Re/Max published a report which evaluates the average price growth of single family homes during the last 10 years. Quebec city saw an average growth of 9,2% per year, average home prices jumping from 90 079$ in 2000 to 237 000$ last year. Quebec was only surpassed by Regina, with an average growth of 9,56%, while London had the weakest progression with 4,82%. Montreal had a yearly growth of 8,48% and the national average was 6,82%.

I do not have the report, only the excerpt of a newspaper article in french:

http://lapresseaffaires.cyberpresse.ca/economie/immobilier/201102/09/01-4368370-prix-des-maisons-de-90-000-a-237-000-a-quebec.php?utm_categorieinterne=trafficdrivers&utm_contenuinterne=lapresseaffaires_LA5_nouvelles_98718_accueil_POS14

OTTAWA - The New Housing Price Index rose 0.1 per cent in December, following a 0.3 per cent advance in November.

Statistics Canada reports Toronto and Oshawa, along with Winnipeg, were the top contributors to the increase.

Between November and December, prices increased the most in Winnipeg (up 1.1 per cent) followed by Halifax (0.3) as well as Toronto and Oshawa (0.2).

In Winnipeg, prices rose as a result of the introduction of new building code regulations in Manitoba, while in Halifax the increase was attributed mainly to higher material and labour costs.

The largest price decreases were recorded in Windsor, Ont., (down 0.6 per cent) followed by Montreal and Quebec (both down 0.3).

Year-over-year, the index was up 2.1 per cent.

Five of the 21 cities surveyed registered 12-month declines in December: Windsor (down 3.7 per cent), Charlottetown (down 2.0), Greater Sudbury and Thunder Bay as well as St. Catharines–Niagara (down 1.1) and Victoria (down 1.0).

Source: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/toronto-winnipeg-top-contributors-house-prices-rise-statscan-20110210-054039-708.html

You are absolutely correct. most markets in BC are above last years prices but look more closely at the figures and something interesting is happening.
Prices are still roughly flat but that is due to the huge surge in prices after the declines in 2008/09. Nearly all of those gains happened in the start of 2010 and have been falling consistently since summer. The trend is not only falling but actually picking up steam. The Vancouver Sun had an interesting story about waterfront property in rural BC and how much of the prices have already fallen 25% and still falling. They said it was for two basic reasons....first, when things get tough the first thing people do is sell their recreational properties and they certainly don't buy them. Makes perfect sense to me. The second reason is more reflective of what will be going on in the BC interior.........Albertans. it said, where cashing in their chips and moving to Arizona at a fraction of Okanagan prices. Much of the interior price increases had nothing to do with the local economies and everything to do with cash rich Albertans looking for 2nd homes in warmer climes.
I have also noticed that a lot of the time-shares in the interior have been on the market for over a year and noticed that some have moved from one-quarter to one-third ownership but still no buyers.
I never really thought that prices would plunge last year but this is different. Interest rates are going up and mortgages are not only getting shorter but also the mortgage in terms of using your house as a credit card are over. Many BCers have been doing precisely that to keep the wolves from the door.
The real estate agents and developers can spin it any way they like but there is simply no getting around the fact that higher interest rates and tighter mortgage rules and amortizations are going to knock a lot of people out of the market. In other words it will force sellers to drop their prices significantly in order to have people even qualify to buy their house.
Its also worth looking at the new StatsCan metro figures that were just recently released for 2010. If you note all 4 CMAs in BC say a slowing of their population growth rate from July 2009 to 2010. Kelowna was the biggest shocker. It had been growing like wildfire at over 3% a year and that dropped in one year to 0.5%.......... a growth rate LOWER than the national CMA average.
When population growth is slowing, interest rates going up and mortgages harder to get that results in only one thing............falling real estate prices. Like I said you may disagree with me on how far and fast the prices will fall but, depending on the area, some will really collapse such as the interior. I think all areas will see a significant decline depending on how over valued they are. I don't think Chilliwack will fall much as it is still reasonably prices as is Abbotsford for Vancouver commuters. It all depends on the local economic factors that will determine the biggest declines.

^^ Some reasonable comments... where I disagree with you is how you pick on BC... Ontario recreational properties are having the same problems... they saw a big drop in value after the recession hit.... This is the last part of the market to recover after a recession. I have been looking very closely as of late at housing in Phoenix... I even have a realtor sending me listings... you can buy nice houses in very good areas (4 bedrooms 2,200 sq. ft) for around $115,000 (down 60% from 2006). ... You can even buy houses close to downtown for $20,000-30,000 - but they are shit and best to avoid even at that price.... In 2006 these places were going for $150,000! ... such areas are forecast to never (ever) come back though.

The US housing disaster (BTW, Las Vegas housing prices may decline another 30% IMO) has a silver lining.... it's a steal if you are a first-time buyer. Las Vegas prices on housing have also really declined.... but unlike Phoenix, I think LV is too risky to buy into at this time.... I would actually prefer to buy a place in LV.... but Phoenix appears to offer much better deals, and its economy and population growth is looking much better than LV... Nevada is in deep doo doo.

The mortgage rule changes apply to everywhere in Canada.... not just to BC. The government wants to discourage Canadians from assuming any more debt... they want to cool the housing market. A slight decline in prices could be a good thing... I'd like to see prices remain stable for about 5 years so that incomes can catch up to prices.

"A stronger economy will offset the effects of higher mortgage rates and keep Canadian house prices stable over the next two years, according to the Royal Bank of Canada.... "

For the rest of the story:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/housing/housing-market-will-be-stable-next-two-years-rbc/article1901168/

i was watching global news and they have a weekly real estate thing - and they discussed a house that sold in east van on fraser near 26th it was - it was listed at $869,000 - and sold for $921,000! way above asking and it was just a dumpy old house just the typical split level from the 60's or 70's - prices are reaching all time highs in east van

there are bidding wars going on again over houses

fyi everyone, any talk strictly about numbers should go on this thead rather than the "nicest condos" thread.

Some interesting stats from http://robertmoore.ca/blog/active-sales-in-2011/
On Vancouver’s west side for the month of January 2011, 134 single family homes were sold. The average days on market for these sold properties was about 35 days.

The average selling price in January was $2,315,276 but the benchmark price was $1,765,297.

SOLD 33 Foot lots: Selling prices ranged from a low of $1,099,000 to a high of $2,458,000 with the average being $1,628,000

SOLD 50 foot lots: Selling prices ranged from a low of $1,566,000 to a high of $4,000,000 with the average being $2,471,000.

In Coal Harbour, 18 condos sold in January for an average selling price of $926,000. The average sale price per square foot was $768 with an average unit size of 1121 sq ft

In False Creek North, 22 condos sold in January for an average selling price of $1,086,000. The average sale price per square foot was $780 with an average unit size of 1261 sq ft.


I figured Coal Harbour would be more expensive, but I guess not.

I noticed while apartment hunting that condos rent for considerably less in Coal Harbour than the north side of False Creek. I think a big factor must be the lack of sun on the north side of downtown, although I think the views are much better than the south side of downtown.

IMO Coal Harbour has poor transportation options, during rush hour, walking is faster than trying to take the bus.

What's rent like in Vancouver these days? What would an average 2-bedroom cost, etc? When I lived there in 2003 we rented a decent 2-bedroom near Broadway & Commercial for $800. I'm guessing that's no longer possible.

I find there's a lot less variation in rent between cities than buying property.

What's rent like in Vancouver these days? What would an average 2-bedroom cost, etc? When I lived there in 2003 we rented a decent 2-bedroom near Broadway & Commercial for $800. I'm guessing that's no longer possible.
A decent 2 Bdrm apartment downtown is going to cost you $1500 at least.

^ Outside of downtown a 2 bedroom would be in the $1000-1200 range but downtown you're looking at $1500-2000 in a newer building.

^^ ya, that's on par with Toronto and Ottawa. So why would anyone ever BUY anything in Vancouver? You're screwed if prices don't continue to appreciate. You would lose money if you ever wanted to rent it out.

Temporary or emergency housing needs can be solved, in many cases, by purchasing a used travel trailer, 5th wheel or motorhome. An RV provides sleeping, cooking, showers anywhere you want to set up your alternative home. If you have water damage or wind damage from a hurricane or other natural disaster, buying a used RV could be a solution to your temporary housing needs. You can live right on your property in air conditioned comfort while you work to get your home back together.

The savings offered on these used RVs compared to new ones makes purchasing a used trailer, 5th wheel or motorhome one option of solving your az temporary housing (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Best-Place-to-Get-RV-Temp-Housing&id=5028151) needs. Many choose to buy one of PPL's consigned RVs so they can use it as temporary or emergency housing and then resell the unit after they no longer have a need for it. By buying a used unit, the cost to you is reduced when you resell the unit in the future when you have restored your permanent housing. You can be assured that the prices on these consigned RVs are exactly as they were prior to hurricane Ike as PPL has been selling used RVs on consignment since 1972.

Bob Rennie faces off against tent city protestors.
http://www.theprovince.com/videos/in...l?v=1810473468

It's kinda ironic that the most unaffordable place in the country also has the biggest sense of entitlement among it's homeless population... "nuh uh, the city PROMISED us free condos, dun care if it costed $600K each... no, don't build them elsewhere, we want those ones, yah, on the waterfront"

That's because they were suppose to have a certain percentage turned over to affordable housing when the Olympics were done. The government lied thru it's teeth and too make matters worse all BC taxpayers are subsidizing the prices of those condos. That's because the whole development came in at a staggering average of $1 million per unit but are not being sold, on average, at that rate. The difference was made up by the gov't.
In other words anyone who can afford a starting price of $500k for a glorified walk in closet are getting the subsidies that were suppose to go to those in need of affordable housing. Funny how the wealthy hate wasteful government subsidizes until they are the beneficaries and then they talk about how it's "good for the economy".

OCEANMDX...................I was not trying to "pick on" BC. The reality thou is that these new mortgage rules and higher interest rates will make all home ownership across the country more costly but BC particularily so. BC ultra high prices means BC carry far more mortgages to pay for than in the rest of the country.
Its simple math.....................a 1% increase in interest rates eans relatively little to someone with a $100 to 150 K mortgage but when your mortgage is anywhre from $400k to 900k then it can have devestating results as it eats into one's after tax income. Higher interest rates also mean higher payments on cars and credit cards and BCers already 20% more indebted than the average Candian and that does NOT include mortgage payments.
Also for 95% of all Canadians a drop from 35 to 30 year amortizations means nothing because very few outside BC even consider them...........25 is still the norm while in BC that could disqualify many potential new home buyers.
This isn't a pick on BC thing but rather reality................all these changes will effect BC much, much, much more than anywhere else in the country. This is part of the reason why this is getting more news in BC than anywhere else and why people may buy before March 15th to beat the new deadline rules. Except for a couple oher exceptions it won't make a hoot of difference.

A decent 2 Bdrm apartment downtown is going to cost you $1500 at least.


That's still pretty good. It may make more sense to just rent in Vancouver then to own.

Chinese investment surge hits Metro Vancouver housing market

Stable Canadian economy and good quality of life is luring 'planeloads' of overseas buyers eager to invest

When real estate entrepreneur Cam Good hosted a group of predominantly mainland Chinese investors this Wednesday at a White Rock condo showing, he was tapping into a market that's surging across much of Metro Vancouver..... Meanwhile, Bosa Properties announced this week that its 34-storey Sovereign tower in Burnaby's Metrotown sold out immediately, surpassing the single day sales record in the Burnaby market by selling $98-million worth of real estate.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Chinese+investment+surge+hits+Metro+Vancouver+housing+market/4352746/story.html#ixzz1F8SWIgC3

Chinese investment surge hits Metro Vancouver housing market

Stable Canadian economy and good quality of life is luring 'planeloads' of overseas buyers eager to invest

When real estate entrepreneur Cam Good hosted a group of predominantly mainland Chinese investors this Wednesday at a White Rock condo showing, he was tapping into a market that's surging across much of Metro Vancouver..... Meanwhile, Bosa Properties announced this week that its 34-storey Sovereign tower in Burnaby's Metrotown sold out immediately, surpassing the single day sales record in the Burnaby market by selling $98-million worth of real estate.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Chinese+investment+surge+hits+Metro+Vancouver+housing+market/4352746/story.html#ixzz1F8SWIgC3

fast forward to 2:50. Although I recommend watching the video from the beginning. Very interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk

That's because they were suppose to have a certain percentage turned over to affordable housing when the Olympics were done. The government lied thru it's teeth and too make matters worse all BC taxpayers are subsidizing the prices of those condos. That's because the whole development came in at a staggering average of $1 million per unit but are not being sold, on average, at that rate. The difference was made up by the gov't.
In other words anyone who can afford a starting price of $500k for a glorified walk in closet are getting the subsidies that were suppose to go to those in need of affordable housing. Funny how the wealthy hate wasteful government subsidizes until they are the beneficaries and then they talk about how it's "good for the economy".

How would you fix this? Do we recoup the $400 million liability to the city by selling the units at a discount, or renting it out to poor people at $300 a month for 250 years? Cuz two wrongs don't make a right.

:lol: Trust you to consider it a "wrong" to help poor people, dleung. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have been born into a privileged family. There are people in society that could benefit from a bit of help, and believe it or not that group of people is also part of "society".

I'm overwhelmed by the number of platitudes in one short post.

:lol: Trust you to consider it a "wrong" to help poor people, dleung.

Yeah, cuz that's clearly what i was saying...

Yeah, cuz that's clearly what i was saying...

Are you confused about what you were saying? I'm not. It meshes quite concisely with your social platform here over the past number of years.

You two give the phrase "kiss and make up" a whole new level of urgency.

How would you fix this? Do we recoup the $400 million liability to the city by selling the units at a discount, or renting it out to poor people at $300 a month for 250 years? Cuz two wrongs don't make a right.

:lol: Trust you to consider it a "wrong" to help poor people, dleung. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have been born into a privileged family. There are people in society that could benefit from a bit of help, and believe it or not that group of people is also part of "society".

I'm overwhelmed by the number of platitudes in one short post.

Are you confused about what you were saying? I'm not. It meshes quite concisely with your social platform here over the past number of years.

Really? examples?? Accusing me of considering poor people not part of society really undermines your credibility as a mod, or as a thinking human being for that matter

You two need to

http://startupblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/kiss-band.jpg

and

http://www.beauty-makeup.cn/wp-content/uploads/makeup1.jpg

Typically though, I rather the two fight till death

http://shinymedia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/12/fight.jpg

but unfortunately for me I like both of you. :yes:

You two give the phrase "kiss and make up" a whole new level of urgency.





Actually we're very close friends but have a funny way of showing it!

(I've not seen anyone quote themselves since the good old AreBe days! :eek:)

Cuz two wrongs don't make a right.

Two Wongs can never make a Wright... they can only make more Wongs. :lol:

Actually it's just a treat to see dleung srappin with someone other than Andrew.

Boy was that getting old. :puke:

:lol: I'll see if I can go a whole week without scrappin' with him! :D

^^You love getting the last word way too much for that to be possible.

Anyway, before the ad-hominem derailment from post #139, the issue at hand was regarding what's the most pragmatic solution to the city's committment to social housing at the Olympic Village. The tent city protestors want ALL of the unsold units to be turned to social housing (more than originally promised lol). Each social housing unit costed over $560K, excluding land costs. The average market condo at the Olympic village was roughly $1M before the recent "discounts". The city of Vancouver currently has the most units of social housing per capita in the country. If the designated units at the village remain as social housing, the city will also have the slickest subsidized housing on the planet. Or they can just build those units elswhere in the city for less than 1/3 the price, like normal cities.

^^You love getting the last word way too much for that to be possible.



dleung, you cut me to the quick with your unkind words. You know how fond I am of you! :shocked:

Another example of how completely out of whack BC real estate is................the new employment numbers are out which show that the national rate stayed constant at 7.8% but the BC rate soared from 8.2 to 8.8%. BC now has the highest unemployment rate west of New Brunswick.
The BC and very much so Vancouver house prices are driven strictly by Chinese investors and to hell with the local residents. This should be stopped immediately so only citizens and landed immigrants can purchase real estate. They have brought this in to Australia to help avoid a huge real estate crash. Investors are just as likely to sell their real estate as fast as they are to buy it.
It won't happen due to the BC governments fixation on making BC a resort-only province and viewing it's citizens as an inconvenience. BC's modern heroes are real estate agents and even questioning their motives has become down right anti-social.
The government wants their money regardless of how they got it or what happens to the populace. In reality they receive less funds as the investors are buying houses and ripping them down for future building which results in less HST revenue. This to say nothing of the fact that these Chinese investors couldn't care less about the community itself.

Another example of how completely out of whack BC real estate is................the new employment numbers are out which show that the national rate stayed constant at 7.8% but the BC rate soared from 8.2 to 8.8%. BC now has the highest unemployment rate west of New Brunswick.
The BC and very much so Vancouver house prices are driven strictly by Chinese investors and to hell with the local residents. This should be stopped immediately so only citizens and landed immigrants can purchase real estate. They have brought this in to Australia to help avoid a huge real estate crash. Investors are just as likely to sell their real estate as fast as they are to buy it.
It won't happen due to the BC governments fixation on making BC a resort-only province and viewing it's citizens as an inconvenience. BC's modern heroes are real estate agents and even questioning their motives has become down right anti-social.
The government wants their money regardless of how they got it or what happens to the populace. In reality they receive less funds as the investors are buying houses and ripping them down for future building which results in less HST revenue. This to say nothing of the fact that these Chinese investors couldn't care less about the community itself.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/gary_mason/chinese-investors-once-again-pouring-money-into-canadian-real-estate/article1939457/

fast forward to 2:43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk

The Chinese have never experienced a real estate crash. Therefore they think it's a good investment.

Chinese are also investing in Japanese property.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110312f1.html

Arguing for lower house prices is politically difficult, since everyone seems to feel more wealthy when their property theoretically increases in value.

There is not much you can do with it when there is a line up of people silly enough to spend a million bucks on a little wooden stucco bungalow. Law
of supply and demand.

Actually it's just a treat to see dleung srappin with someone other than Andrew.

Boy was that getting old. :puke:

The beauty of blocking. :)

There is something the government can do...............put a requirement of landed immigrant or citizenship status in order to purchase housing but real estate agents and developers rain supreme here and they grease enough political pockets to keep it going.
To hell with the average citizen who's kids will never be able to buy in the community they were raised in. Hell they can't even afford to live in the entire region.
If the province doesn't have the will or possibly power to stop investors from warping the market they could bring in laws that state that all non-citizens have to pay a higher premium for the houses with those funds going towards social housing for the poor working average Joe. Frankly 50% looks good to me.
Vancouver and BC as a whole has built an entire economy around real estate and housing..............build it and they will come without the economic foundation to support it. This is exactly like Miami, Tampa, Phoneix did..........an economy so warped towards residential construction and speculation that it is unsustainable. A strong housing market must be based upon and underlying strong economy and not the other way around. Like the above cities Vancouver is in that very unenviable position where sky high prices are built in a relatively low income city.
The market will crash but the Chinese investors will lose little when compared to their income but the average Vancouverite will pay thru the nose as they try to make payments that will rise due to rising interest rates on homes that will be worth a fraction of what they were. This is the situation that has plagued much of the southern US and it will happen here.
For those who continually spout the real estate/developer lines of "it's different here".......well no it's not. It's simple economics......Vancouver income levels do not support housing half it's price and there will be a "correction" but probably of at least 30%.

^^Incomes don't align with house prices, but savings more than makes up for it. Remember the highly-scorned explaination that Vancouverites are more likely to be comfortably retired, of all the major ciites.... being here isn't a means to an end, but rather the end itself :lol:

since there hasn't been a "pissing match" in a while, here's some updated real estate numbers:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9159/hpi.gif

I've also underestimated the stats behind my comment on another thread... as of Jan 2011, there are 75,539 million dollar homes in Greater Vancouver according to Landcor Data Corp. This is based on the assessed value, whereas market value/sale price is always significantly higher, as much as double for properties over $10M. Here's the municipal breakdown:

-------------------------$1M+----------$5M+-----------$10M+
Vancouver proper--------37,131---------550-------------75
West Vancouver---------10,826---------258-------------28
North Vancouver---------5,736----------9
Richmond----------------5,433----------11--------------2
Burnaby-----------------5,114-----------2
Surrey-------------------5,087----------21--------------2
Langley------------------1,154----------2
Coquitlam-----------------888-----------3
White Rock---------------501-----------5
Delta---------------------463-----------2
UBC---------------------455------------70---------------6
Other areas--------------2,089----------4
TOTAL-------------------75,539--------3,026------------113

being here isn't a means to an end, but rather the end itself :lol:


Being a retirement destination is a desirable thing?

no but being an early-retirement destination definitely has the best of both worlds. In any case I was answering to ssiguy's fixation on income, which is quite flawed as we can see that most places with the highest incomes (besides some inner-city enclaves) are those exurban wastelands for young families and their starter homes.

you never tire of the pissing matches, do you dleung? You should work for the Vancouver Chamber of Commerce. ;)

you never tire of the pissing matches, do you dleung? You should work for the Vancouver Chamber of Commerce. ;)



Well look at the threads he creates in the Canada room. They may as well come complete with urinal puck.

But why engage in it at all? If you said nothing, he'd have no one to talk to.

Don't shoot the messenger. It is worth pointing out how tiresome the endless pissing matches get after awhile. All the who's richest, who has the richest immigrants, the most expensive this, the most expensive that. There is more to life than income and pricetags. We can wind up knowing the pricetag of everything and the value of nothing.

Well look at the threads he creates in the Canada room. They may as well come complete with urinal puck.

During the World Cup, I was at this one bar where they replaced the urinal pucks with a small soccer net and a tiny ball shaped urinal puck. It was pretty swell.

It certainly makes you take time and aim better if you have a little amusement! :lol:

Not quite sure what I did that was so heinous and offensive to warrant the double-rebuke, besides post housing stats on a housing market thread?

"Because you KNOW we'll get all anal retentive about it!" isn't an answer :lol:

Not quite sure what I did that was so heinous and offensive to warrant the double-rebuke, besides post housing stats on a housing market thread?

"Because you KNOW we'll get all anal retentive about it!" isn't an answer :lol:

^^ Two words.
1) Passive
2) Aggressive



since there hasn't been a "pissing match" in a while, here's some updated real estate numbers:

Only you and AndrewJM3D would purposely misinterpret satire. The fact that I "predicted" a pissing match is supposed to prevent one from derailing the discussion from the facts, but I see you've found other ways to get worked up.

:sleepy:

satirical? You?

Practically every thread you create is a pissing match, both here and in World Forums.
You bait people with a pissing match, then you scream bloody martyrdom when they respond.
Again, passive-aggressive.

This isn't a pissing match; not my problem if people get weird over something so benign and appropriate to this thread:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9159/hpi.gif

I've also underestimated the stats behind my comment on another thread... as of Jan 2011, there are 75,539 million dollar homes in Greater Vancouver according to Landcor Data Corp. This is based on the assessed value, whereas market value/sale price is always significantly higher, as much as double for properties over $10M. Here's the municipal breakdown:

-------------------------$1M+----------$5M+-----------$10M+
Vancouver proper--------37,131---------550-------------75
West Vancouver---------10,826---------258-------------28
North Vancouver---------5,736----------9
Richmond----------------5,433----------11--------------2
Burnaby-----------------5,114-----------2
Surrey-------------------5,087----------21--------------2
Langley------------------1,154----------2
Coquitlam-----------------888-----------3
White Rock---------------501-----------5
Delta---------------------463-----------2
UBC---------------------455------------70---------------6
Other areas--------------2,089----------4
TOTAL-------------------75,539--------3,026------------113

This is never going to end, so I'll let you go on and on till you've had your morning coffee.
It is getting more and more tiresome by the minute.

During the World Cup, I was at this one bar where they replaced the urinal pucks with a small soccer net and a tiny ball shaped urinal puck. It was pretty swell.

I remember those, at the start of the night my shooting skills were much better.

I don't see how posting accurate stats that are relevant to this thread can be considered a bad thing.

For a supposed urban forum the Canada section has it's priorities backward. I mean look how many threads there are that have absolutely nothing to with Canada or skyscrapers or even urbanism for that matter. This forum has completely devolved which is why I rarely visit anymore.

This problem would be solved if there was a Canadian Skybar section, rather than a North American one ...

For a supposed urban forum the Canada section has it's priorities backward. I mean look how many threads there are that have absolutely nothing to with Canada or skyscrapers or even urbanism for that matter. This forum has completely devolved which is why I rarely visit anymore.

+ 1

I don't see how posting accurate stats that are relevant to this thread can be considered a bad thing.

For a supposed urban forum the Canada section has it's priorities backward. I mean look how many threads there are that have absolutely nothing to with Canada or skyscrapers or even urbanism for that matter. This forum has completely devolved which is why I rarely visit anymore.

In order for any forum to be a success we need the participation of the members. If you feel there are not enough relevant threads here, wouldn't it be more constructive to start one or two yourself as opposed to dropping in to say the forums are not interesting enough for you to bother visiting? You've been on the boards longer than I have, and I don't ever recall even one thread by you in this Canada Urban Issues section. That is how forums succeed; by member participation. We are all capable of starting new threads, but few actually bother to. I am hopeful that if you have some ideas for good urban issues you will come forward with some new threads.
As much as I am personally bored with all the "Biggest Bestest Most Expensive Mine's Bigger and Richer than Yours" threads, I do have to give dleung credit for taking an active role in at least trying to drum up interest for the crowd. And, a lot of valuable discussion does come around from most of the threads. But it is the pissing matches that get intolerable after awhile; not the presentation of charts and stats. Unfortunately its those stats and charts that are inevitably lead to the "we're richer than you" argy bargies. At the end of the day we are all in the same country, after all, and not arch enemies poised to go to war any day now.
So, vanman, I encourage you and everyone else to get actively involved in the making of new urban themed threads that you feel would be of interest to the group. And I am hoping we can take a mini break from the most expensive/richest themes, and in particular the active intention of starting a pissing match for a bit.

In order for any forum to be a success we need the participation of the members. If you feel there are not enough relevant threads here, wouldn't it be more constructive to start one or two yourself as opposed to dropping in to say the forums are not interesting enough for you to bother visiting? You've been on the boards longer than I have, and I don't ever recall even one thread by you in this Canada Urban Issues section. That is how forums succeed; by member participation. We are all capable of starting new threads, but few actually bother to. I am hopeful that if you have some ideas for good urban issues you will come forward with some new threads.
As much as I am personally bored with all the "Biggest Bestest Most Expensive Mine's Bigger and Richer than Yours" threads, I do have to give dleung credit for taking an active role in at least trying to drum up interest for the crowd. And, a lot of valuable discussion does come around from most of the threads. But it is the pissing matches that get intolerable after awhile; not the presentation of charts and stats. Unfortunately its those stats and charts that are inevitably lead to the "we're richer than you" argy bargies. At the end of the day we are all in the same country, after all, and not arch enemies poised to go to war any day now.
So, vanman, I encourage you and everyone else to get actively involved in the making of new urban themed threads that you feel would be of interest to the group. And I am hoping we can take a mini break from the most expensive/richest themes, and in particular the active intention of starting a pissing match for a bit.

:grouphug: Awesome post TB, I really tired of these mine is bigger than yours threads too. :bash: :)

Exactly!! Especially when I KNOW mines bigger than everybodies.....

**well, my tummy that is..** :cry:

Pissing matches happen when those with the most hostility to the thread topic somehow turn out - in this case - to be the 2nd and 3rd most frequent posters. Not surprising is the fact that all of their posts have only served to derail the thread. Maybe their absence will leave room for better discussions, cuz there's a lot that can stem from affordability issues, such as comparing land-use regulations in different cities, housing typologies, etc... not just "i don't like these stats so they're wrong".

:sleepy:
Ah, I see. The pissing matches have nothing to do with you.

Okay, assuming it is all the doing of the second and third most frequent posters and nothing whatsoever to do with you, do you
think we could all make the effort to END pissing matches? Even if that means slowing down on the "expensive/richest" bragging threads for a bit?

You have the 2nd highest number of posts here, yet none of them have anything to do with the topic, so spare the sarcasm

and I didn't create the expensive houses thread; my threads have all been qualitative rather than quantitative. You misread it because of your own regionalism. Now back on topic, for the last time.

I give up. Do whatever you want, dleung.

In order for any forum to be a success we need the participation of the members. If you feel there are not enough relevant threads here, wouldn't it be more constructive to start one or two yourself as opposed to dropping in to say the forums are not interesting enough for you to bother visiting?

Excellent point! All of us should chip in to help make this forum a better place for everybody. This is a small forum and not all members here want to discuss only urban issues. That's why we have threads like "Whats for Dinner?", "Canadian Sport" etc. so we all can enjoy different topics for discussion.

Imo, TB is the most hard working guy in the whole SSC forum and that's why Jan installed him as an administrator which makes TB his right hand man. Without Greg, the Canada forum would have been gone long time ago. He is like the captain of the ship and he would go down with it with no hesitation if that day would arrive.

dleung is the most talented guy I've ever seen on both SSC and SSP. He has so much knowledge about skyscrapers and his renderings are the best among all members if I dare say.

So I beg both of you to lay down any differences and work together for the sake of all canadian members.

Excellent point! All of us should chip in to help make this forum a better place for everybody. This is a small forum and not all members here want to discuss only urban issues. That's why we have threads like "Whats for Dinner?", "Canadian Sport" etc. so we all can enjoy different topics for discussion.



Which is why I think we need a Canadian skybar, because all that other crap should be secondary to Canadian urban issues.

dleung is the most talented guy I've ever seen on both SSC and SSP. He has so much knowledge about skyscrapers and his renderings are the best among all members if I dare say.



ROFLMAO, wow! Did he pay you to say that or are you his gym buddy? Carefull his head may not fit out his prius door now. There are some pros on this site that arean't just fanboys. Seems to me a certain member put out messages begging for some back up.

Which is why I think we need a Canadian skybar, because all that other crap should be secondary to Canadian urban issues.

I don't think we need a sky bar at the moment. As I said earlier, this is a small forum and if we further divide this tiny forum into many sub forums, I'm afraid the main urban issue section would lose attention. Imo, once more members start to participate and open more urban related threads, then it would make more sense to create a skybar section for all other interests.

I'm too busy to read through all the pissing match drivel.

Have we come to any conclusions regarding the rich Chinese influencing housing prices in Vancouver yet?

BC housing prices, and Vancouver in particular, are way overpriced compared to most of the rest of the country. That is plain as day. Anyone who argues this is out to lunch, or in serious denial.

The value of single-family homes in Quebec City certainly isn't very high when compared to bigger urban centers in Canada. However, the increase in median prices for these homes has been very impressive during the last 10 years: 159%. It is likely that this increase will continue since the market is still very hot.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RkpkBnL3LKU/TZH055e2ifI/AAAAAAAAAuU/d7U07f17mu8/s1600/Sans%2Btitre.jpg
http://fciq.ca/pdf/mot_economiste/en/me_032011_a.pdf

anyway on the light note,a friend of mine just bought a house in Floria area (since the real estate agent says now is the lowest housing price in US in the last 9 years) for small amount of 200.000 US dollars (beside CAN dollars now $1.24 to US ).I saw the photo and I will tell you.if that house selling here in Van its easy go for $1.6 mil.Wow.

Have we come to any conclusions regarding the rich Chinese influencing housing prices in Vancouver yet?

Yes and no. Yes, in that we've stopped talking about it. No, in that no one will agree on the degree of influence.

The really interesting stats will be in early May when an entire full month will have gone by with the more stringent {although still too lax} CMHC rules are in place. Interest rates will almost certainly go up after the federal election.

Vancouver market drives Canadian resale home prices higher in January


Reuters March 30, 2011 12:02 PM


Canadian resale home prices rose for a second straight month in January, led by gains in the Vancouver area, according to a report on Wednesday.


The Teranet-National Bank Composite House Price Index, which measures price changes for repeat sales of single-family homes in six metropolitan areas, showed overall prices were up 0.4 percent in January from December.


"The key that is worth emphasizing here is that the repeat-sales Teranet gauge posted its second consecutive monthly rise in January after a three-month downdraft prior to that," wrote Scotia Capital economists Derek Holt and Gorica Djeric in a research note.


The Teranet data lags other Canadian resale data. The Canadian Real Estate Association's (CREA) latest figures, for February, showed the national average resale price jumped 8.8 percent year-over-year, largely due to a show of strength in the Vancouver market.


The Teranet index showed Vancouver had a price gain of 0.9 percent in January. Prices in the Halifax, Montreal, and Toronto markets also rose.


Calgary slid 1 percent, its fifth decline in six months, while prices were down 0.6 per cent in Ottawa, the fifth straight monthly contraction.


"Market conditions are currently balanced in Canada," said Marc Pinsonneault, a senior economist at National Bank Financial.


He noted conditions look "somewhat tight" in Vancouver and Toronto, but "favorable" to buyers in Calgary.


Looking ahead, analysts said an expected rise in interest rates and recently announced tighter mortgage rules could limit price growth.


Prices were up 3.9 per cent from a year earlier.


The index tracks home prices over time for repeat sales, so properties with at least two sales are required in the calculations. The report did not provide actual prices.



Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Vancouver+market+drives+Canadian+resale+home+prices+higher+January/4529601/story.html#ixzz1I73PdZ2A

Chinese buyers send west side real estate soaring


By: ctvbc.ca

Date: Friday Apr. 1, 2011 5:03 PM PT

Property on Vancouver's west side has always been expensive, but an influx of wealthy Asian buyers has sent prices soaring to a benchmark of $1.9 million.

That benchmark has shot up by more than $260,000 since November, fueled at least in part by buyers from China.

"We've done 45 sales this year. Half of those have been mainland Chinese," said Tom Gradecak of Westside Realty.

Most of those people are investor class immigrants, who require huge amounts of money to come to Canada.

"Many of these immigrants are well heeled indeed," said Cameron Muir, analyst for the B.C. Real Estate Association.

"They need to post about $800,000 investment and have a net worth of at least $1.6 million."

John Lichtenwal of RE/MAX Metro Vancouver says that some immigrant buyers are planning ahead.

"We're seeing a lot of offshore buyers who are looking at moving here in two to three years, but they're putting their money -- parking it -- into real estate," he said.

While the high prices of the west side might seem astronomical to many Vancouverites, Lichtenwal says they could go even higher.

"When you look at affordability, you have to look at the rest of the world, and Vancouver is rated 75th most expensive city, so we've got a lot of room to grow," Lichtenwal said.

With a report from CTV British Columbia's Shannon Paterson

source http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110401/bc_vancouver_west_real_estate_110401/20110401?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

^ Wow. I guess the influence of Chinese on Vancouver's housing prices isn't such a myth after all. With those kinds of prices, I don't think I'll ever be able to afford to live in Vancouver :shocked:, not that I want to though.

What a liar the guy is who says Vancouver is still $75 worldwide in affordability. What the guy fails to mention is when they do those surveys they include rental costs NOT real estate costs.

What a liar the guy is who says Vancouver is still $75 worldwide in affordability. What the guy fails to mention is when they do those surveys they include rental costs NOT real estate costs.
It's true that these cost of living surveys can and usually are somewhat inaccurate for all kinds of reasons, but they will never compare owning homes in various cities because you're not forced to own a home. You are, however, forced to rent at some level so rent is surprisingly a much fairer comparison. Also, for a great deal of the comparitive cities, owning a home is not even an option, even for ex-pats. So, for the other basket of goods that are generally in the list of what these surveys are all about, Vancouver is very much middle of the pack...like most Canadian cities.

^ Wow. I guess the influence of Chinese on Vancouver's housing prices isn't such a myth after all. With those kinds of prices, I don't think I'll ever be able to afford to live in Vancouver :shocked:, not that I want to though.

It is definitely not a myth. Take a look at any of the marketing material for upcoming condos in high profile areas downtown and even in some of the suburbs, and it is clear that it is geared towards Asian buyers.

One of the latest proposals in Burnaby, Metroplace, a 46 story condo next to Metrotown station, has even gone so far as to have removed all floors starting with the number 4. The number 4 in Mandarin supposedly sounds like the word death, so the building will actually be 6o stories on paper.

a 46 story condo next to Metrotown station, has even gone so far as to have removed all floors starting with the number 4. The number 4 in Mandarin supposedly sounds like the word death

That's not new. Not using the number 4 in new builds has been going on for well over a decade now in the GTA...I'm certain in Vancouver it's been the same.

Yeah but its pretty unheard of for Burnaby of all places.

We can't really scoff at the practice, considering how many buildings in the Western world don't have a 13th floor. I've always found that silly, personally, but there you have it; people are superstitious.

In Hong Kong, there's lots of buildings without any '4' related floors (4,14,24,40,41,etc), so that the 80th floor is really 17 floors lower in reality!

My building has 4, 13 and 14 surprisingly considering it's new.

Some interesting housing price stats, can anyone confirm this with a source?
Here is a quote from UT where a member has a breakdown of average house
prices for various nabes, back in 2007. No doubt those prices are obsolete today:

"Eug is offline Senior UT Member

Join Date
Apr 2009
Posts
1,512

Some median neighbourhood 2007 prices, all above $2 million:

Bridle Path-Sunnybrook-York Mills - $4667500
Forest Hill South - $4320000
Rosedale-Moore Park - $3879750
Casa Loma - $3163000
Edenbridge-Humber Valley - $2940300
St. Andrew-Windfields - $2337500
Humewood-Cedarvale - $2249000
Annex - $2219000
Birch Cliff-Cliffside - $2148000

The page is incomplete, but does have most of the neighbourhoods. It's also 2007, but apparently the page is supposed to be updated this fall."

Found on the UT forum from a posting back in 2009. I am not familiar with the member EUG and he gave no reference.

2011 avg. price forecast: $235,800
Change from previous year: + 6.2%

2012 avg. price forecast: $249,900
Change from previous year: + 6.0%

Believe it or not, modest Manitoba is one of Canada's hottest real estate markets. One of only three provinces to sell more homes last year than it did in 2009, Manitoba housing prices are set to boom. The CREA looks for the average home price in the province to jump 6.2 per cent this year compared to last (the second-largest spike in the country) and a further 6.0 per cent next year compared to 2011 (the largest forecasted jump in Canada).

Source: http://money.ca.msn.com/banking/homebuyersguide/gallery/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=28685507&page=9

StatsCan: Metro Vancouver posts tiny increase in new home prices


By Brian Morton, Vancouver Sun July 7, 2011 10:02 AM


Metro Vancouver posted a miniscule 0.2-per-cent increase in new home prices in May from April, below the national gain of 0.4 per cent, Statistics Canada said Thursday.


The city also posted a drop of 0.8 per cent in new home prices from May 2010 to May 2011, StatsCan said.


Nationally, new home prices rose 1.9 per cent over the year.


However, a separate report on second quarter home prices by realtor Royal LePage released Thursday said that Vancouver's overall housing market experienced some of the largest price increases in the country over the past year, with detached bungalows rising 14.1 per cent on average and condos rising 2.5 per cent.


“At the end of 2011, average house prices in Vancouver are forecast to be 15.4 per cent higher than 2010,” the Royal LePage survey concluded. “Unit sales in Vancouver, during 2011, are expected to be 6.0 per cent higher than 2010 indicating strong market activity.


StatsCan said the biggest month-over-month increases were in Regina, up 1.7 per cent, the Kitchener–Cambridge–Waterloo region of Ontario, up one per cent, and Toronto-Oshawa, up 0.9 per cent.


Prices were unchanged in seven of the 21 metropolitan regions surveyed by the federal agency.


Year over year, prices were up 1.9 per cent in May, matching the increase in April. The StatsCan index does not provide actual values for homes.


"While we have witnessed steady growth in this index in recent months, we are expecting a softening going forward . . . ," said Karen Cordes Woods, at Scotia Capital.


Meanwhile, Royal LePage said that its survey of house prices showed "sizable year-over-year price increases in the second quarter of 2011, but high house prices are concealing early signs of a moderating market.


"The market has seen its near-term peak in house price appreciation, and a slower second half of the year is expected. Still, by the end of 2011, the national average house price is expected to be 7.7 per cent higher than it was at the end of 2010," it said.


The average house price in Canada rose 7.5 per cent in the second quarter from a year earlier to $356,625 for a detached bungalow, according to Royal LePage. The price for a standard two-storey home increased 6.1 per cent to $390,163, while the price for a standard condominium was up 3.5 per cent to $238,064.


Phil Sper, Royal LePage's president and chief executive, said in a statement that in many markets house prices appreciated at a significantly faster rate than wages and salaries, “and this trend cannot continue indefinitely.”


He said price moderation in the latter half of 2011 should reduce the stress of purchasing a new home, adding: “Vancouver, and specifically certain neighbourhoods in the Lower Mainland of B.C., remains an anomaly, as investment from outside of the country continues to support higher price levels.”


On Wednesday, StatsCan also reported that residential building permits continued to trail non-residential activity, especially in the commercial sector.


Non-residential permits rose by 50.9 per cent to $2.7 billion, following two straight monthly declines, with most of the activity focused on commercial developments in Quebec, Alberta and Ontario, the agency said.


The residential sector increased just 5.3 per cent to $3.7 billion, but still better that the 12.1 per cent drop in April. Multi-family unit intentions in Quebec and Ontario accounted for much of the gain, Statistics Canada said.


bmorton@vancouversun.com



Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/StatsCan+Metro+Vancouver+posts+tiny+increase+home+prices/5065491/story.html#ixzz1RRrEzw1f

Wow, sounds like housing in Canada is expensive, why is that in a country with almost infinite land?

Wow, sounds like housing in Canada is expensive, why is that in a country with almost infinite land?

About 90% of the population lives in it's urban centres and along the U.S border.

I doubt if it is as expensive as in Britain, though... Vancouver is the most expensive in Canada, probably as London is in the UK. Some are predicting a correction in the Vancouver market, though..

^^ It seems quite similar, more similar than I would have thought.

Averages for England and Wales:

All homes £161,823 (C$247,589)

Detached houses £255,911 (C$391,543)
Semi-detached houses £152,701 (C$233,632)
Terrace/Row houses £123,063 (C$188,286)
Flats/apartments £151,024 (C$231,066)

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/

^^ I don't know what the average is for all of Canada. Certainly will be much less than the average for Vancouver.

Well according to the article....

The average house price in Canada rose 7.5 per cent in the second quarter from a year earlier to $356,625 for a detached bungalow, according to Royal LePage. The price for a standard two-storey home increased 6.1 per cent to $390,163, while the price for a standard condominium was up 3.5 per cent to $238,064.

Royal LePage says Canada's housing market is at its near-term peak, with current high prices concealing early signs of a moderating market.

Topics :
Royal LePage , House Price Survey and Market Survey Forecast , Canada

In its House Price Survey and Market Survey Forecast, Royal LePage says Canada's residential real estate market saw sizable year-over-year price increases in the second quarter.

And, it says the price increases were evident across all housing types surveyed, with the national average price of a detached bungalow has rising the most – 7.5 per cent year-over-year to $356,625.

Meanwhile, the price of a standard two-storey home rose 6.1 per cent to $390,163 and the price of a standard condominium 3.5 per cent to $238,064.

But while prices continue their recent climb, signs of moderation are appearing, although they vary from region to region.

In Ottawa, prices for two-storey homes bumped up 5.2 per cent year-over-year to $371,500 while bungalows increased 5.1 per cent to $370,750. Condominiums rose 3.2 per cent to $245,333.

Royal LePage says the national average house price is expected to finish the year 7.7 per cent higher than it was at the end of 2010.

SFH are now sitting at an average of $1.388 million in the city of Vancouver..........up a mere 29% in the last 12 months yet the Vancouver Sun just ran an article from a realtor.
He say that real estate prices in Vancouver if "you don't include the houses over $1.0 million............spoken like a true Vancouver real estate agent.
If SFH prices in Vancouver drop by 40% over night it will still be more expensive than Toronto.
To qualify for the average SFH according to CMHC rules now requires an AFTER TAX household income of a mere $30,000..........................................a month!

Sorry meant to say real estate prices in Vancouver are affordable when "you don't include houses over $1 million", whew that does seem much better.

^thats fine, when $1,000,000 houses don't inlcude 90% of the houses on the market :lol:

Interesting new stat from Vancouver...............................for the week ending June10/2011 which is the first week of the new immigration {read land speculators} restrictions Vancouver prices have plunged. In just one week attached houses are down 8% and SFH prices are down 12%! That's a drop of nearly $150k in one week for SFH in Vancouver city.
The speculators are buying all the Westside houses and that lead to a surge in all family house prices across metro. Without the speculators who on earth can afford an "average" Vancouver SFH price of $1.244 million? Nobody.
It will be VERY interesting to see what happens next week. If this drop continues then the long anticipated Vancouver housing crash will officially begun.

^^ Do you have info on how the new restrictions work? Like a link to a gov't website or something.

Btw, here's an article regarding foreign speculation in Vancouver's property market.
Asian buying of Vancouver real estate underestimated

Last Updated: Thursday, July 07, 2011 | 02:05 PM EDT

While new data suggests that Asian foreign investment is not behind inflated home prices in Vancouver, a new report from CIBC World Markets Inc. Thursday argues that flaws in the numbers means foreign activity may actually be grossly underestimated.

Benjamin Tal, deputy chief economist with CIBC, obtained sales data from Landcor Data Corp. that showed only 10% of foreign transactions in Vancouver over the past five years were actually worth more than $1-million, and the average price was just under $600,000.

Mr. Tal said there are reasons why the data, which also shows only 2.6% of overall sales in Vancouver over the past five years involved foreign cash, does not actually match up with the Asian foreign investment theory....

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/fp/story/2011/07/07/5065907.html#ixzz1Rmk821ZV

Toronto has just been named Canada's most expenssive city to live in surpassing Vancouver. :ohno:

Oh joy. I can never figure out how some people consider high cost of living to be something to brag about.

In Hong Kong, there's lots of buildings without any '4' related floors (4,14,24,40,41,etc), so that the 80th floor is really 17 floors lower in reality!

My building has 4, 13 and 14 surprisingly considering it's new.

I would love to live on the 13th floor. Best Halloween party pad.

Toronto has just been named Canada's most expenssive city to live in surpassing Vancouver. :ohno:
Toronto has always been more expensive according to Mercer until last year when Vancouver was 75th and Toronto was 76th. Then again, these surveys all mostly retarded. UBS and ECA have VASTLY different rankings than Mercer does.

The average SFH price in Vancouver has always been excessively skewed by two or three neighbourhoods. It's the most misleading data in the world to suggest that in general, people will have to shell out an "average" of $1.3MM for a home. That would make it the most expensive place on earth - in real dollars, not just housing to income ratio. And that's just nonsense.

In Hong Kong, there's lots of buildings without any '4' related floors (4,14,24,40,41,etc), so that the 80th floor is really 17 floors lower in reality!

My building has 4, 13 and 14 surprisingly considering it's new.

My building here in Toronto has no 4, 14, 24, or 34, but has 40's.

My building here in Toronto has no 4, 14, 24, or 34, but has 40's.

Stupid Concord Pacific. I wish the fire departments would put their foot down on this one.

Oh joy. I can never figure out how some people consider high cost of living to be something to brag about.Well, in order for prices to be high (and to stay high for any amount of time) there must be people willing and able to pay them, which indicates these people have sufficient affluence and place a high value on the product. Some people view having a city be valued highly as being equal to a city being well liked (whether it be for the general ambiance or for the opportunities it offers), and since being well liked is generally considered positive, being expensive/highly valued is by extension considered positive as well.

I would have assumed you'd know all this, but since you said "I can never figure out" I thought I'd better explain just in case! :lol:

Well, in order for prices to be high (and to stay high for any amount of time) there must be people willing and able to pay them, which indicates these people have sufficient affluence and place a high value on the product. Some people view having a city be valued highly as being equal to a city being well liked (whether it be for the general ambiance or for the opportunities it offers), and since being well liked is generally considered positive, being expensive/highly valued is by extension considered positive as well.

I would have assumed you'd know all this, but since you said "I can never figure out" I thought I'd better explain just in case! :lol:
That's true but only to a certain extent. Over-valuation though is related mostly to herd mentality. And right now, that's what Vancouver's real estate market is like (certain parts of it anyway). It's not a whole lot different than a stock market bubble with little substantial fundamentals to back it up. The media doesn't help.

^ exactly
All cities have run up in prices at certain times but Vancouver's has not only been very long but also so huge that it no longer has any connection to the local economy.
The price of real estate in Vancouver has absolutely no correlation with the local economy.
It's population growth has dropped 40% in the last year alone, it's a low income city with a relatively small middle class, the citizens are already the most indebted in the country, unemployment is above the national average, there has been a tightening of CMHC rules and yet prices soared 25% on what was already North America's costliest real estate.
Vancouver is speculator nirvana but just as the rich are more than willingly to buy real estate to make long term investments they are also just as likely to sell when they see their equity losing it's value.
In Vancouver due in large part because of the Chinese view as a house being just a real estate investment as opposed to somewhere to live, people are just as likely to sell it as they would stock. This can, and will, result, in panic selling. It's one thing to see your place drop by 10% which may mean 20 to 30k but when it starts to mean loses of 100 to 200k that's different matter.
Also Vancouver is a very bad way because thousands who have bought in Vancouver in the last 5 years did so with no money down and, until recently, 40 year mortgages. The banks out here have been very " creative" in their figures so the buyers can qualify for CMHC or their own bank loans. For example 5% down by CMHC but as soon as you get the house you get the 5% back. Condo owners offering reduced maintenance fees for the first couple of years so they can qualify for a much higher mortgage, some developers give a yearly bus pass so when applying for a mortgage they can state they will not have top pay for gas or insurance as they will be taking the bus.
In other words in Vancouver, as in all of BC, thousands who live in their places have absolutely no equity in it which means they are very likely to just turn around and give it back to the bank when they find out they have a massive amount of negative equity. Many in Vancouver bought because it was no more difficult than signing a tenancy agreement...........just like in the US.

BC has the highest percentage of people banking with Credit Unions in the country, they are very popular and the biggest is VanCity.
Just this spring it cam out with one of these schemes, it's called the "Springboard mortgage" and it is specifically for low income people with poor credit and no down payment as it is not insured by CMHC. You have to put down 20% of the downpayment on a maximum $300k mortgage {which allows you to buy a $360k condo which in Vancouver is a standard one bedroom} so they LOAN you the 20% down. You get to pay off the down payment interest free within 10 but you must make interest only payments on your outstanding mortgage amount at the same time and the whole mortgage must be payed backed within a total of 25 years. In otherwords, in 10 years you will have been paying mortgage interest payments and then when you are done paying for your down payment you have 15 years total to pay off the entire remaining mortgage of $300k.
Even a upper income household would be very strained to pay off a $300k mortgage in 15 years and god only knows what interest rates will be in 10 years. Impossible you say.............exactly. VanCity knows no one will be able to pay it back but reinforce to these people that they will be able to sell the place in 10 years for way more than they originally bought it for because didn't you know real estate only goes up in Vancouver.
It is lunacy and ponzi schemes like this that will result in thousands walking away from their places when they see negative equity because they will have invested nothing in the property EXACTLY like the reverse mortgages of the US. In 99% of the world this would be viewed as lunacy and irresponsible but In Vancouver it's considered a "creative" idea for Vancouver's "unique" enviornment.
Vancouver will crash due to this and I would be very surprised if Vancouver gets away with a correction of anything less than 35%.

BC has the highest percentage of people banking with Credit Unions in the country, they are very popular and the biggest is VanCity.
Just this spring it cam out with one of these schemes, it's called the "Springboard mortgage" and it is specifically for low income people with poor credit and no down payment as it is not insured by CMHC. You have to put down 20% of the downpayment on a maximum $300k mortgage {which allows you to buy a $360k condo which in Vancouver is a standard one bedroom} so they LOAN you the 20% down. You get to pay off the down payment interest free within 10 but you must make interest only payments on your outstanding mortgage amount at the same time and the whole mortgage must be payed backed within a total of 25 years. In otherwords, in 10 years you will have been paying mortgage interest payments and then when you are done paying for your down payment you have 15 years total to pay off the entire remaining mortgage of $300k.
Even a upper income household would be very strained to pay off a $300k mortgage in 15 years and god only knows what interest rates will be in 10 years. Impossible you say.............exactly. VanCity knows no one will be able to pay it back but reinforce to these people that they will be able to sell the place in 10 years for way more than they originally bought it for because didn't you know real estate only goes up in Vancouver.
It is lunacy and ponzi schemes like this that will result in thousands walking away from their places when they see negative equity because they will have invested nothing in the property EXACTLY like the reverse mortgages of the US. In 99% of the world this would be viewed as lunacy and irresponsible but In Vancouver it's considered a "creative" idea for Vancouver's "unique" enviornment.
Vancouver will crash due to this and I would be very surprised if Vancouver gets away with a correction of anything less than 35%.
Lol are there any articles on these credit schemes? Because if this is true I need to start shorting the hell out of Vancity stock the second the market dips (of course I can't actually do that b/c Vancity is member owned).

^ Just go to their website.

The economy in BC is not doing so well and lots of business has been suffering badly. There are many empty retail space everywhere in the malls and shopping districts. But its just amazing that how new condos developements are still blooming and they are pretty much all sold out even before they dig the holes.

Quite true but many of those condos were sold BEFORE June 1st when the new immigration {ie speculators} laws had come into effect. Anyone offshore before that time could buy basically no questions asked but now it will have to be locals to fill any new towers and the income levels don't even come remotely close to supporting the prices.........they will plunge. You will also see investors who bought those condos sell en mass as they would rather take their hit than wait for prices to plunge even further.

Very interesting new stats recently...........prices of SFH is Vancouver dropped by 12% last week alone and this week a sign of things to come........the number of price changes in the last week has EXCEEDED the number of units sold, a huge change whre previously there were bidding wars now everyone seems to be trying to sell before the crash really starts and they begin to loose a lot of equity.
June 15 daily stats show that only 86 combined sales of detached and attached in Vancouver despite the fact that there were 111 price changes!
The crash has officially started and it will be a whopper.

Which GTA homes Chinese investors are buying

By Tony Wong | Tue Sep 06 2011

Richard Ling knows all too well that some Asian luxury market buyers have particular tastes.

“It has to be over the top,” says the exuberant Ling, an upscale home specialist with Harvey Kalles Real Estate.

Recently, he suggested that one of his clients see a mansion in the Bayview Avenue and York Mills Road area of Toronto that was listed at $18 million.

“It had that understated WASPy elegance. But I think they wanted something a little more showy,” says Ling. “Like the White House.”

Showy would be the home on Doulton Drive the realtor sold for a Mississauga record price of $7.25 million to a mainland Chinese buyer.

The 14,000-square-foot contemporary home screamed opulence.

“It was like walking into a Bollywood set. There was marble everywhere. It was so shiny you needed sunglasses,” says Ling.

The yellow Ferrari parked in the foyer helped seal the deal. The buyer, who is in the steel business, also had an impressive Ferrari collection.

Hello Toronto. The Chinese are coming — and citizens from the world’s second largest economy are looking for some prime real estate.

Chinese investors have been the largest buyers of pricey Central London real estate so far this year. In Sydney, they are credited with buying up to 60 per cent of all properties in new projects. And in Vancouver, they have been blamed for jacking average prices up by 25 per cent year over year.

Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney has already said Asian wealth is causing prices to move to “extreme” levels in the Vancouver market, where the price of a standard bungalow is more than a million dollars.

But while Vancouver has been getting the lion’s share of attention, Toronto has not escaped notice.

“As Beijing reins in wildly overheated domestic residential markets, the middle class moves its growing wealth offshore into havens such as Canada, Australia and more specifically into Metro Vancouver and Toronto,” said a recent report by Vancouver-based consultancy Landcor. “In China, real estate has long been regarded as a secure bet.”

In 2007, China had about 22,000 millionaire households and that number is expected to increase to 409,000 by 2017, according to Barclays Wealth.

Toronto prices are cheap in comparison to cities such as Hong Kong, where a mainland Chinese buyer purchased a 6,000-square-foot penthouse last year for $57 million, or $9,000 per square foot, a world-record price.

Asian buyers have already been credited with buying the penthouse at the Ritz Carlton for north of $10 million and an Asian buyer had purchased the penthouse at 1 Bloor for a reported $25 million before the developer scrapped the project during the downturn.

While records are generally not kept on the country of origin for investors, real estate insiders say Asian foreign investment remains high in the Toronto market.

The city is on the map for Chinese investors, particularly after China Investment Corp., one of the world’s top five largest sovereign wealth funds, decided to open its first non-Asian office in the city last year, bypassing other financial centres such as New York and London. With $332 billion in assets, the fund is flush with cash and a major player in the investment world.

The recent global economic turmoil on stock markets will also likely not have much of an impact since real estate is seen as a safe haven for foreign investors, say analysts.

“We are a bigger, more diverse market than say Vancouver, but there is definitely a huge Asian buyer influence,” said Johnson Cheng, sales manager at Peter Street condominiums in the city’s entertainment district.

At the spring launch, Cheng targeted the Asian market by taking out advertising in Chinese newspapers such as Sing Tao and Ming Pao. After most of the units had been sold, he advertised in mainstream media.

He estimates that an astounding 55 to 60 per cent of the buyers in that project were Asian investors. Most of the sales went to mainland Chinese buyers, some of whom were bused in on real-estate “tours” to view properties.

“You get to see Niagara Falls, and in between you can go shopping for a condo,” said Cheng.

Asians typically buy real estate because they feel it’s a safe place to park their money, said Cheng. Canada is also accepting of diversity and the GTA has the largest ethnic Chinese population in North America.

It isn’t unusual for some investors to buy two or three condominiums at a time when visiting the city, said Cheng.

“The typical overseas buyer is trying to preserve wealth. Many of them are children of entrepreneurs who were born in the ’80s and they’ve never really tasted the same kind of hardship their parents have,” said Cheng, who is also a vice-president at condominium specialist Milborne Real Estate Inc.

Kitty Zhu, 24, bought two luxury downtown Toronto condominiums in the same building with her father earlier this year. She is living in a third property she bought last year.

“We think Toronto is a good investment and the lifestyle is very good, much calmer compared to China,” said Zhu, who is studying English in Canada.

Originally from Shangahi, Zhu said learning English and a foreign culture will help her father’s manufacturing business when she returns to China.

“The prices in Toronto are getting higher, but they are still okay when you compare it to China or Hong Kong,” said Zhu.

Asian investors are becoming increasingly sophisticated, sometimes land-banking property by buying acres in the Ontario greenbelt and sitting on it for future development, said Cheng.

One big reason for the wave of investment is that Canada received “approved destination status” from the Chinese government in 2009, which has made getting tourist visas easier for Chinese citizens.

Tourism real estate has since become big business, as tourists drop in to project sites to view property before moving on to the outlet malls.

Another incentive is that Beijing has cracked down on property speculation this year by introducing tough measures such as a 5.5 per cent tax on homes sold within five years to curb flipping.

In Beijing, property prices rose by 28 per cent last year, while in Shanghai prices rose an astounding 26 per cent.

This has caused investors to seek a return elsewhere.

Still, it’s hard to pinpoint the exact amount of investment because Chinese buyers tend to remain secretive about their wealth. And without hard Canadian statistics, separating myth from fact about Chinese investors remains an issue, according to a recent Colliers report.

“A number of recent launches reported large numbers of Asian buyers. Yet a significant portion of these buyers are actually local residents, not foreigners,” said the report.

That could also be the case in Toronto, where Chinese-Canadian investors may be active in the buying pool.

“A significant portion of what is perceived to be buying by offshore investors is, in fact, driven by Chinese immigrants who are integrated into the community but still maintain strong links to mainland China, with many residing and working in China while their family establishes roots,” said CIBC economist Benjamin Tal in a report on the housing market.

Mimi Ng, a vice-president at developer Menkes, says the Toronto market is larger than Vancouver and attracts a much more diverse crowd.

“There is certainly a lot of Chinese investment here. But that is also hand in hand with South Asians, Middle Eastern, Russian and Korean investment,” said Ng.

So far there hasn’t been a backlash in Toronto similar to Vancouver. In 1988, the iconic Expo site in the city’s downtown was purchased by investors including Hong Kong billionaire Li Ka Shing.

The group built condos and sold them in Asia first, provoking anger among some Vancouver residents.

Toronto’s last wave of Asian investment occurred in the ’80s, when Hong Kong immigrants, worried about the handover back to Chinese rule, snapped up properties in the GTA causing a mini-boom, and a negative reaction by some local residents who felt they had been priced out of the market. But that wave ended in a few years after many immigrants realized business opportunities in China outweighed living in Canada.

However, realtor Ling expects the new Chinese wave will be longer lasting.

“This isn’t just one tiny British colony. They are pumping out billionaires on a huge scale and it will continue to have a huge impact on the Toronto market,” said Ling. “I think this will turn out to be massive.”


http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1049562--which-gta-homes-chinese-investors-are-buying?bn=1

It sounds to me like Richard Ling is wearing rose coloured glasses seeing nothing but $$ signs.

Top 10 most expensive cities to buy a home


Despite recent market volatility, the housing market has remained stable for the second month in a row. According to data from the Canadian Real Estate Association, sales activity increases in Toronto and Ottawa were offset by slight declines in Calgary, Montreal and Vancouver. The national average home price rose this month from a year earlier, but was lower than in other months earlier this year. Lets see where home prices rose the most.

Canada
August '11: $349,916 *
Change (year-over-year): + 7.7%
Number of units sold: 39,542
Change (year-over-year): + 15.8%
Source: CREA


10. Saskatoon

August '11: $315,774
Change from August '10: + 3.2%
Number of units sold: 415
Change from August '10: + 32.6%
Source: CREA


9. Montreal CMA

August '11: $318,567
Change from August '10: + 5.1%
Number of units sold: 2,502
Change from August '10: + 4.9%
Source: CREA


8. Hamilton-Burlington

August '11: $321,036
Change from August '10: + 7.1%
Number of units sold: 1,206
Change from August '10: + 23.3%
Source: CREA


7. Edmonton

August '11: $325,322
Change from August '10: - 0.4%
Number of units sold: 1,642
Change from August '10: + 25.8%
Source: CREA


6. Ottawa

August '11: $339,415
Change from August '10: + 5.3%
Number of units sold: 1,349
Change from August '10: + 19.4%

5. Calgary

August '11: $394,251
Change from August '10: + 2.2%
Number of units sold: 1,907
Change from August '10: + 22.1%

4. Toronto

August '11: $451,663
Change from August '10: + 9.9%
Number of units sold: 7,542
Change from August '10: + 21%

3. Fraser Valley (Lower Mainland of BC)

August '11: $507,750
Change from August '10: + 19.7%
Number of units sold: 1,282
Change from August '10: + 35.5%

2. Victoria

August '11: $536,631
Change from August '10: + 13.7%
Number of units sold: 522
Change from August '10: + 32.2%

1. Vancouver

August '11: $778,545
Change from August '10: + 14.4%
Number of units sold: 2,419
Change from July '10: + 8.2%


source: http://money.ca.msn.com/banking/homebuyersguide/gallery/top-10-most-expensive-cities-to-buy-a-home?cp-documentid=23647600&page=10

Yoikes! :ohno:

I feel sorry for young families trying to get established.

If they're stupid enough to move to Vancouver knowing that houses cost 800,000 then more fool them. There are cheaper options, those are usually the boom cities of the future anyway.

Don't know why anyone would pay that much to live in Vancouver tbh.

The problem with Vancouver is everybody wants to live there but the jobs that people need to make enough to buy there just don't exist which is why it's bought up by so many foreign investors. Shit, if I could find a job in my industry that paid enough in Vancouver I'd move in a heartbeat. But the pay in Vancouver for me is the same as here in Toronto if not a bit less so that move is still years away. I could move to Montreal and live like a King. I often think about doing just that. Montreal rocks! Stupid Beautiful Vancouver.

ps- My folks are moving to BC to be closer to my sister and niece, soon I'll be the only member of my family here in Ontario. The rest will all be in BC, England, and Australia.

It's a lifestyle....either West Coast living suits a person, or not. You gain certain things and lose others, so I suppose in the long run it would just boil down to the individual. It is a much newer city than those in the East, and the social life is as different as the climate is.

Even renting a place in metro vancouver is expensive. One bedroom of 500 sq feet could be varied from $700 to over $2,000 a month depends on the locations and how well the units are being maintained.

Hey, I'm doing a research project, and am hoping to find some information about housing prices in the 3 major cities, broken down by neighbourhood, thanks!

Top 10 least expensive cities to buy a home


According to the Canadian Real Estate Association, homes cost 7.7 per cent more in August this year than they did in August of last year. There are some places, however, where home prices have stayed low. Here are the country's most affordable real estate markets


Canada

July '11: $349,916 *
Change (year-over-year): + 7.7%
Number of units sold: 39,542
Change (year-over-year): + 15.8%
Source: CREA


10. Gatineau CMA

August '11: $238,312
Change from August '10: + 8.3%
Number of units sold: 336
Change from August '10: - 2.9%
Source: CREA


9. Winnipeg

August '11: $236,306
Change from August '10: + 6.2%
Number of units sold: 1,205
Change from August '10: + 26.2%


8. London and St. Thomas

August '11: $227,038
Change from August '10: + 1.5%
Number of units sold: 783
Change from August '10: + 23.1%


7. Sherbrooke CMA

August '11: $222,758
Change from August '10: + 12.1%
Number of units sold: 135
Change from August '10: + 25%


6. Sudbury

August '11: $221,451
Change from August '10: - 0.4%
Number of units sold: 240
Change from August '10: + 6.2%

5. Saguenay CMA

August '11: $188,781
Change from August '10: + 15.1%
Number of units sold: 122
Change from August '10: + 19.6%


4. Thunder Bay

August '11: $172,307
Change from August '10: + 6.6%
Number of units sold: 229
Change from August '10: + 9.6%


3. Saint John

August '11: $169,024
Change from August '10: - 2.8%
Number of units sold: 146
Change from August '10: - 7.0%


2. Windsor-Essex

August '11: $163,963
Change from August '10: + 1.2%
Number of units sold: 478
Change from August '10: + 13.5%


1. Trois Rivières CMA

August '11: $154,284
Change from August '10: + 1.4%
Number of units sold: 77
Change from August '10: + 42.6%

Vancouver home prices lead nation; bungalows average $1.02 million, survey finds


By Derrick Penner, Vancouver Sun October 5, 2011 7:28 PM


Big sale prices on homes in Vancouver’s most expensive neighbourhoods pushed the city’s average prices up steeply on realty firm Royal LePage’s third-quarter survey of Canadian home values.

Royal LePage said Wednesday the average price for a detached bungalow in Vancouver rose 17 per cent to $1.02 million in the third quarter compared with the same period a year ago, which the firm noted is nearly three times the national average of $349,974 for that type of property.

For the purposes of the survey, Royal LePage said Vancouver is defined as including Vancouver’s west side and east side, West Vancouver and North Vancouver.

A standard Vancouver two-storey home was up 16.9 per cent in the third quarter on Royal LePage’s measure to $1.142 million, but the price of a standard Vancouver condominium was up just 5.1 per cent to $513,500, which was still twice the national average for a condominium.

However, the averages mask considerable variability between markets around Metro Vancouver, according to Bill Binnie, managing agent for Royal LePage North Shore.

“One could draw the wrong conclusion if you just singled out West Vancouver, Vancouver west-side and Richmond because price increases there are far greater than in other areas,” Binnie said in an interview.....


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Vancouver+home+prices+lead+nation+bungalows+average+million+survey+finds/5508562/story.html#ixzz1ZyWsUXPI

Frankly, if I outright owned a bungalow in Vancouver I would sell it for a cool million, invest the money and rent for the rest of my life.

what kind of investment you can do in order to make a quick return other than real estate in Vancouver? And it would become a full cycle again if you sold your house and bought another one. :D

You can always start a ponzi scheme.

what kind of investment you can do in order to make a quick return other than real estate in Vancouver? And it would become a full cycle again if you sold your house and bought another one. :D

stocks! right now, ford motor company is a great buy, you'll probably double your money in a year (judging by p/e ratio)! or oncology start-ups!

Housing bubble is really a balloon: BMO's Sherry Cooper



By Robert Hiltz, Postmedia News January 30, 2012


OTTAWA — It's not a bubble, it's a balloon. Unlike the catastrophic decline the U.S. housing market experienced in 2008, Canada's housing market is expected to deflate slowly rather than pop, according to BMO Capital Markets chief economist Sherry Cooper.


Cooper's report says that despite rising household debt, low interest rates and rising home prices, it is unlikely that a sudden correction will take place.


"The main take-away is that the national housing market appears somewhat pricey, but is far removed from bubble territory," Cooper said in the report, titled Will Canada's Housing Boom Forge On, Fizzle Out, or Flame Out?


The study, co-authored by BMO senior economist Sal Guatieri, says that despite rising home prices in most of Canada's major cities, that growth doesn't seem to be excessive.


On average, home prices have risen 104 per cent in the last 10 years. Along with that, the average price of a home has risen against the average income in Canada. In 2001 the price-to-income ratio was 3.2 nationally, rising to 4.9 in 2011......

Read more: http://www.canada.com/business/Housing+bubble+really+balloon+Sherry+Cooper/6073335/story.html#ixzz1l0XR0MwH

Vancouver's housing market unlikely to face significant price correction: expert


Banks tightening lending standards to avoid U.S.-style housing correction


Bloomberg, Reuters and Vancouver SunFebruary 9, 2012 5:50 PM


While Canada’s banks are tightening lending standards in a move to avoid a U.S.-style housing correction, experts say Vancouver’s robust housing market isn’t expected to face a severe price correction.

Canada’s banks are in talks with the federal government about ways to curb mortgage lending in response to a “genuine concern” about the country’s housing boom and rising consumer debt levels, said TD Bank chief executive officer Edmund Clark.

“Household debt numbers are coming up to U.S. levels, so that is causing us a concern,” said Clark.

The banks have responded by restricting some lending and raising prices on higher-risk borrowers.

TD Bank joined Royal Bank of Canada this week in ending a promotional 2.99 per cent four-year mortgage rate, three weeks before it was set to expire.

Although the Vancouver housing market may be out of equilibrium, a significant correction is not expected, said Tsur Somerville, director at the University of B.C. Centre for Urban Economics and Real Estate at the Sauder School of Business.....


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