Joburg's Nelson Mandela Bridge in a sorry state


http://www.biography.com/blackhistory/images/photo-gallery/nelson-mandela/the-nelson-mandela-bridge.jpg
http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/nelsonmandelabridge/images/1-Image-1.jpg

Joburg's Nelson Mandela Bridge - the seven-year-old landmark that cost the city R38 million to build - is falling into disrepair.

Although the basic structure is not affected at this stage, the bridge is in a state of neglect.

Some of the damage endangers pedestrians.

This is what The Star found:

The concrete surface is starting to lift and crack.

Pedestrians pass a nest of exposed electrical cables where metre-lengths of aluminium housing and light fittings, which have been stripped over the years, once were.

Vandals have shattered the glass panels on the pedestrian walkway.

Aluminium plates on the glass panes along the bridge have been stripped and fibreoptic cables dangle on the outside of the light boxes, which were upgraded last year for the World Cup.

The protective boxes for the lights have started to rust. The metal boxes hold the structural steel beams of the bridge, as well as covering the light fittings.

Ernest Lewesh, the one security guard visible on the bridge, said vandalism was rife, and that it was largely perpetrated by homeless people living underneath the bridge.

"There's a lot of theft here. It normally happens in the very early mornings, at around 3am and 4am, and we (the guards) work only from 6am until 6pm.

"It's normally the hobos who do this and we catch them sometimes.

"When we get back the stolen things, we put them in a storage room to show the bosses what's been taken."

Lewesh added that there was only one surveillance camera for the 284m-long bridge.

City of Joburg member of the mayoral committee responsible for the bridge, Rehana Moosajee, expressed surprise when told of the damage to the bridge two weeks ago.

"We closed the bridge off for one and a half weeks at the end of last year for structural maintenance," she said.

"However, I cannot comment until I have sent someone out there to investigate," she said, adding that the damage could be due to vandalism.

"We are only responsible for the structure. If it is lighting, it is City Power's responsibility."

The Star has been waiting nearly two weeks for this comment - which was received this morning.

Lisa Seftel, executive director for transportation at the City of Johannesburg, said: "Regular reactive and proactive maintenance is carried out on the bridge.

"Reactive maintenance responds to wear and tear, damage from accidents and vandalism, while pro-active maintenance is done at regular intervals to make sure that the bridge is in working order.

"Pro-active maintenance is done on the basis of regular bridge inspections. This is very important for a steel bridge.

"The city acknowledges there has been a problem of vandalism and small parts of the bridge have been removed.

"The service provider who is going to do pro-active maintenance later this year has also been instructed to repair the bridge in a way that would minimise the future possibility of vandalism.

"However, the removal of parts of the bridge does not compromise the safety of road users or pedestrians," she said.

The Star

i hear that it sways alot too?

:bash: Why build a bridge that allows vagrants to remove covers and expose electricrical wires in the first place? Honestly?!?

well you would think that most public structures in SA would be designed with that in mind

:bash: Why build a bridge that allows vagrants to remove covers and expose electricrical wires in the first place? Honestly?!?


Duh, it's Joburg for you...not only Nelsom Mandela bridge is neglected but all the art work and the new pavements. I won't be suprised if the same's gonna happen to Rea Vaya Stations.


Look at this...

The following pic illustrates what I have always been saying regarding the lack of commitment from JMPD and those who run the city.





Top Arrow ~ Shows were the CCTV Camera is located.



Bottom Arrow ~ show a pedestrian deciding that it's better to walk on the drive way. I don't blame her.



Middle Arrow ~ shows hawkers making it impossible for pedestrians to walk by filling up the tight space with thier marchendise at one of the bussiest intersection in the CBD.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5007/5354630857_c7dff36a50_b.jpg

^^ ironic that the picture includes the cities slogan "A world class African city"

The only way to end this is too STOP voting for the ANC. If you dont like the DA dont vote either, but please not these guys.
This has all too do with the political will of whos in charge. And sadly theirs none from these guys.

So sad about the bridge...eish

Pule, please can you give an update on the Rea Vaya buses and stations? Also hows system operations going? expansion still rolling out?

^^ There is a lot said about the City of Cape Town, that they're draconian in their bylaws, harsh in their legal enforcement and ruthless with "grime" elements... but... New York's broken-window policy works and CT follows this model.

I know it gets a lot of flack from the ANC and their supporters, as the Broken-Window Policy is seen as targeting the "lower income elements of society," but unfortunately, to have a world class city, elements that breed crime, theft and vandalism must be dealt with in a serious manner. People with a low-income are not automatically "grimy elements," you have to be a criminal threat to be a "grimy element."

Johannesburg has so much potential and the suburbs are looking really good. They MUST tackle to CBD and deal with grime elements harshly. I fear Goliath may be correct in the view that if the ANC remains in power in Johannesburg's Council, CBD grime will not be dealt with in a serious manner.

I'm sure that Mandela and his friends and family are delighted to have a neglected structure named after him. Does the man no justice at all.

Ive said it a hundred times, Joburgs council needs people who know and understand its problems, people who walk the streets and take note of whats wrong, people who care, someone like PULE!!!!

^^ Already said Pule should be president after Zuma! :colgate:

So sad about the bridge...eish

Pule, please can you give an update on the Rea Vaya buses and stations? Also hows system operations going? expansion still rolling out?

I will try but no promise my friend.

:lol: Annman, I will triple number of wives that Zuma has.

@ Marco, if things goes my way I will be relocating back to the Vaal in 2 years or so. Things are starting to work that side and would love to contribute to my place of birth. As for Joburg, I will always love it and will never stop doing what posetive and contribute to it's well being. If only all Joburg forumers had time so that we can start something of our own and push municipality to the right direction.

Agreed Pule. About the Zuma thing, I have too agree, one wife for everyday of the week!:D

Repairs for Mandela Bridge

Written by Lesego waka’Ngobeni
21 January 2011


Traffic accidents and vandals have damaged parts of Nelson Mandela Bridge, prompting the City to put in place tighter security measures.

THE City is looking into repairing some parts of Nelson Mandela Bridge after vagrants living beneath the structure pulled out electricity cables and damaged metal elements.

It is still waiting for help from a service provider that has to carry out pro-active maintenance work, the City explains. The service provider has been instructed to repair the bridge in a way that will minimise the future possibility of vandalism, according to Lisa Seftel, Joburg’s executive director of transport.
“Pro-active maintenance is done on the basis of regular bridge inspections. This is very important for a steel bridge,” she says.

The largest cable-stayed bridge in southern Africa, the iconic Nelson Mandela Bridge was slightly damaged when light and malleable metal elements were pulled out, exposing electric wires. Some of the glass panels on the pedestrian walkway were shattered and the concrete surface was cracked.

Seftel concedes that although the City does carry out regular reactive and proactive maintenance on the bridge, it has been unable to keep vandals away. “The City acknowledges there has been a problem of vandalism and small parts of the bridge have been removed.”

Aluminium plates are also dangling on the glass panes, exposing stripped fibre optic cables on the outside of the light boxes. The protective metal boxes that hold the structural steel beams are also in poor condition. “The removal of parts of the bridge does not compromise the safety of road users or pedestrians.”

Road accidents
Seftel notes that some of the damage was caused by road accidents, and adds that pro-active maintenance will be carried out at regular intervals to ensure that the bridge remains in working order.

“The City’s reactive maintenance will respond to the wear and tear and damage.”

Because of the vandalism and copper wiring being stolen from the bridge, the City has put in place tighter security measures, including 24-hour video surveillance.

The imposing bridge is one of many landmarks in Johannesburg and countrywide that pay homage to the retired statesman, Nelson Mandela. Connecting Newtown and Braamfontein, it was symbolically designed to link the older part of the city with the new, in the same way that Mandela laboured to heal past racial rifts and lead a democratically governed country.

It was officially opened by Mandela on 20 July 2003. Construction took two years and cost R38-million. The bridge was commissioned to rejuvenate and modernise the inner city, an initiative spearheaded by the provincial Blue IQ.

The proposal was to link two of the city’s business areas, the stylish Braamfontein and Newtown, Joburg’s arts, heritage and cultural hub.

It is 284 metres long, 42 metres high at the north pylon and 27 metres high at the south pylon. Engineers used structural steel with a concrete composite deck to keep the bridge light in weight. It has two traffic lanes in each direction, a walkway in each direction and a reserved lane for bicycles. Its light-emitting diode (LED) lighting technology alternates between a range of colours.

It was judged “the most outstanding civil engineering project achievement in the technical excellence category” by the South African Institute of Civil Engineers (SAICE) and won the SAICE Award of the Century in the construction category. The institute is an independent body that promotes the improvement of quality in the sector and rewards good practice.



Read more: http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6124&catid=88&Itemid=266#ixzz1BulkvjRR

Good to hear, but hopefully the dumbheads in charge of the City will be pro-active and get working, instead of running their facetraps and lining their pockets.

Some are are off again, and it's been more than 2 weeks...

Hi

I drive past the Nelson Mandela Bridge to work daily and it is not in as bad a state as people make it out to be. Yes it is a bit dirty with rubbish and litter but you must remember the large number of people that walk past there daily. It is a beautiful bridge that deserves great respect. It looked spectacular when there was a fashion show held there this winter with the bridge used as a runway. May we continue to respect it and to put it to good use.

^^ Being busy is no excuse for it being dirty and strewn with rubbish. Cape Town does not use the "it's busy excuse," it's simply cleaned.

Problem is we're becoming too complacent and not expecting higher standards of our "so-called world class African cities." African does not equal dirty. We should demand more and better...

Justin please stop included links to accomodation or sales of any sort or you will be banned from the forums

I think it is unrealistic to expect a city with 800 000 commuters that pass through on a daily basis to be spotless. Manhattan is an absolute mess some times during the day - and even 5th ave is littered by the end of the day. They do clean the main areas in the city on a daily basis (in Johannesburg) - mostly the parts with the CIDs.

City Power is really doing a great job at bringing back the street lights in downtown Johannesburg. I have driven past the bridge this past monday and i can say that it was bright and well lit. the only problem once again, the street lights being used on the bridge as i have indicated before should be changed from the fancy-but-not-so-functional street lights to something that we know works.

I think it is unrealistic to expect a city with 800 000 commuters that pass through on a daily basis to be spotless. Manhattan is an absolute mess some times during the day - and even 5th ave is littered by the end of the day. They do clean the main areas in the city on a daily basis (in Johannesburg) - mostly the parts with the CIDs.

I was in the city on Saturday evening, around 7pm, on Kruis Str. in particular, damn kuya pithizela (its hectic) and the amount of rubbish/litter is ridiculous. Although I see improvements all the time, the discouraging thing is that there is no overall improvement, while other areas are getting better, others are getting worse, creating a patchwork of hope and despair....

@Kulani: Yep, the inner city is well lit, and there are indications that on the lighting front things are getting better. It was looking good on Sat...

Spent the day in Cape Town and the differences between Joburg are shocking. I've never been more certain that a DA controlled city is a city that is innovative, accountable and works for the people that actually live in it. The DA is Joburg's last hope of becoming a 'world class' city and not just another 'city that could have been' in Africa.

Spent the day in Cape Town and the differences between Joburg are shocking. I've never been more certain that a DA controlled city is a city that is innovative, accountable and works for the people that actually live in it. The DA is Joburg's last hope of becoming a 'world class' city and not just another 'city that could have been' in Africa.

Well said. Glad to see that someone from Johannesburg can be honest and say it like it is.

Well said. Glad to see that someone from Johannesburg can be honest and say it like it is.

Unfortunately I'll probably be labelled a whiner and pessimist by the happy brigade. To be honest with you I can't blame them for being so happy and optimistic since most live in Cape Town.

Unfortunately I'll probably be labelled a whiner and pessimist by the happy brigade. To be honest with you I can't blame them for being so happy and optimistic since most live in Cape Town.

I have no doubt!

As a person who was born in Joburg and who currently lives here, but regularly travels to Cape Town, I have to say that the difference between these 2 cities is overwhelming in almost every single aspect.
No, it's not because I'm a DA supporter, it's because I'm a TAX PAYER.
I can't stand bad service, and that's what we unfortunately receive here in Joburg.
People who work and pay there tax deserve a government that provides all the basic services required.
The sad part is that in this country people don't vote for who provides them the best service.

Spent the day in Cape Town and the differences between Joburg are shocking. I've never been more certain that a DA controlled city is a city that is innovative, accountable and works for the people that actually live in it. The DA is Joburg's last hope of becoming a 'world class' city and not just another 'city that could have been' in Africa.

Cape Town is great because the DA puts people who are interested in serving their constituency as opposed to the ANC that likes to put people who are more concerned with lining their pockets and securing their political future. Also i suspect that in Cape Town, if you are not doing your job, you quickly get shafted and sidelined as opposed to the ANC culture of patting you in the back.

The truth must be told. I am one of the people who will say it like it is. I admire Cape Town, which has changed for the better since they removed that Nomaindia Mfeketo woman who nearly ran it down to look like Hillbrow. Look what years of neglect has done to Joburg under Amos Masondo and Pretoria under Gwen Ramokgopa.

:ohno:

^^ It is truly sad to hear Gautengers speak like this. Especially after reading the Gautrain is finally going to Park Station, that the system is like a gleaming beacon, until one steps out of the station and sees a city with so much potential, being squandered, neglected and mismanaged.

I've been to Johannesburg three times over the last 12 months and heading up again in a month. Must concur... seeing glaring disparities between what is Africa's richest city and it's somewhat poorer provincial cousin, Cape Town. It "looks" to the observer, as if Johannesburg has half the tax-base of Cape Town, but in reality, it is the opposite way around.

Things I notice: Not getting the basics right. Not maintaining what exists, but going balls to the wall with new glamour projects, they're unsure they can fund. Road signs and street lights looking like they haven't been serviced/fixed/renewed in decades. Roads cracking, potholes forming, road verges looking like weed-menageries with no sidewalks. Landscape maintenance is a foreign concept. Glaring disparity between private investment (i.e. gleaming new buildings, offices, homes) and public investment (the urban surroundings falling apart). New social housing projects looking first-world in Cape Town, compared to more RDP-like developments in Jo'burg (something the ANC loves to spin in reverse). Obviously, both cities have a massive urbanisation problem and struggles with informal settlements and housing demand.

It simply is not sustainable. How long before the private sector starts buckling under the decay around them, before lack of maintenance and governance affects business, causing disinvestment (most likely to Cape Town). Scary thing is, our government and economic agencies know this and ARE targeting Jo'burg mismanagement as an investment incentive for the Cape.

I do want it to succeed, because Jo'burg should be our economic capital and should be a gleaming city of vibrant urbanism. It doesn't have a beach or a mountain... but, if it was managed properly, it could be Africa's New York or London, people coming for the urbanism, vibrance and culture alone!

The only solution: *Get those selfish kleptocrats out of power. Tell as many people as you can. We turned the Cape around because we mobilised the educated to semi-educated, motivated our friends and colleagues to make their voice heard at the polls. Gauteng could get an opposition coalition in 2014 if you all try really really hard to destroy apathy. Also, say... if the ruling party isn't working for you, but you don't trust the opposition 100%, give them a 5-year chance, if they don't improve your lives, you can vote them out again.

Come Jo'burg, fix this... get off your butts and take your city back! :)

Not getting the basics right. Not maintaining what exists, but going balls to the wall with new glamour projects, they're unsure they can fund.

+10000...

Agreed 100% annman. I just worry that the DA won't win in 2014. And things, like I've been saying for years, are not getting better but getting worse. And when people hear this instead of being proactive they 'leave the forum' (or at least threaten to).

Things are bad, real bad. And I personally think they'll get a whole lot worse before they start getting better. 2014 can't come sooner as I don't think Joburg can take another 5 years of absolute ransacking.

Inertia, the DA not winning in 2014 is a given. One has to understand the mindset of the majority who vote for the ruling party. Joburg today, is paradise compared to what they had during Apartheid. There allegiance lies only with the party who set them free.

Inertia, the DA not winning in 2014 is a given. One has to understand the mindset of the majority who vote for the ruling party. Joburg today, is paradise compared to what they had during Apartheid. There allegiance lies only with the party who set them free.

It's a given if you're apathetic! A coalition is possible if you try hard. It's probably inevitable in 2019, if we still have a truly free democracy left and mass-mobilisation and racialisation hasn't short-circuited a free electoral system, the courts, NGO's and the constitution.

Soweto wards' voting percentage for DA (not COPE, just DA):
2009 Nat'l Election: 1%
2011 Local Election: 16%

*Something is happening and these are wards that are supposed to be opposition untouchable. Your apathy of believing there's NO chance, means they'll never have a chance. You have to cultivate hope to destroy apathy. And I believe you may be wrong; The majority voters know something is wrong, they know the ANC is up to nonsense, but as of yet, haven't made the quantum leap en masse of divorcing from the abusive spouse (i.e. liberator). Some have "separated" through not voting and this is the first step to eventual divorce. If Mmusi plays it right in GP, it may happen...

They key is showing the masses that democracy means you can switch and switch back... like a cellphone; they treat you badly, when the contract expires, switch!

The Western Cape saw the most service delivery protests last year.

http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=173453

In noting this I am not saying that the WC is not delivering. But I am also drawing attention to the fact that the inner city of CT is not the entire WC. ALL of our departments and officials need to learn how to liaise with communities. I have yet to see decent communication strategies. And to think that EVERYONE in the WC is living in nirvana is also a bit reductionist. I know many well-to-do people in the WC that is not happy with the DA. They have made amazing inroads, and they are doing spectacular, especially when compared to the dismal ANC. But the fact that service delivery on this level is not dealing with the frustrations felt in the poor communities means something is not on. And this goes for the entire country.

I am not saying the DA is evil. Or that they fail. All I am saying is that the statistics prove that citizens are still not happy. And looking at the amount of protests (most in the country), the WC government needs to look deeper.

As South Africans we need to stop living in two worlds. The one world where everything is amazing and perfect and without a blemish. And the other world where everything is dark, dismal and decayed.

One does need to bear in mind the fact that the DA does not run all wards in the Western Cape. Last week, for example, there were service delivery protests in Nyanga, where 3 out of the 4 wards are ANC-run. These protests reflect badly on the DA, while in actual fact many of them are being aimed at the ANC.

That is hardly applicable to other provinces where minimal wards are controlled by the opposition.

One does need to bear in mind the fact that the DA does not run all wards in the Western Cape. Last week, for example, there were service delivery protests in Nyanga, where 3 out of the 4 wards are ANC-run. These protests reflect badly on the DA, while in actual fact many of them are being aimed at the ANC.

That is hardly applicable to other provinces where minimal wards are controlled by the opposition.

This is true. And I do think that politics come into play - with some political hotheads pushing certain agendas.

But at the core our political leadership need to be more innovative (on all fronts). It is not enough to say that you have tried to engage. We need to look at ways to broaden participation dramatically, or we are doomed.

For citizens? Stop expecting the world will change once a particular political party is in charge. We are part of the solution - in all spaces.
Government? Stop thinking a 60 minute meeting is the beginning and end of engagement.

For me one of the biggest frustrations in JHB with the city council (apart from severe neglect of core infrastructure, lack of accountability and transparency) is that they spend massive amounts on new infrastructure, but this is then not maintained. For the year they look great, because something new and amazing was built. 3 years later, no upkeep and it looks like shit again.

This is true. And I do think that politics come into play - with some political hotheads pushing certain agendas.

But at the core our political leadership need to be more innovative (on all fronts). It is not enough to say that you have tried to engage. We need to look at ways to broaden participation dramatically, or we are doomed.

For citizens? Stop expecting the world will change once a particular political party is in charge. We are part of the solution - in all spaces.
Government? Stop thinking a 60 minute meeting is the beginning and end of engagement.

For me one of the biggest frustrations in JHB with the city council (apart from severe neglect of core infrastructure, lack of accountability and transparency) is that they spend massive amounts on new infrastructure, but this is then not maintained. For the year they look great, because something new and amazing was built. 3 years later, no upkeep and it looks like shit again.

So I'm still confused as to why you don't advocate voting of the DA into power into 2014 as a viable solution to fixing Joburg. Citizen's have done all they can to make the city work. They have tried their best to reclaim Braamfontein and Newton, and a few pockets of nice places exist there amongst the rot. But they can't do anymore - us citizens can't go and repave the streets, clean the roads, fix the lights, re-tar roads, paint municipal buildings, clean up crime and grime, landscape, maintain and enforce city by laws which for all intent and purpose don't exist.

What I've discovered is that THESE things make a city liveable, not a bunch of well-to-do citizens trying their best to fight tooth and nail against a city council who couldn't give a damn if the citizens lived in Joburg, CPT, Durban or Perth. It blows my mind how the city of Joburg has not tried absolutely everything in its power to make the Joburg city centre a liveable place for ordinary people.

You say people still don't like DA, delivery protests, what about the poor... Blah blah blah sounds like a lot of hot air to me. All those problems are on a national scale which the ANC has again spectacularly failed to address. The stuff I've seen here in CPT is light years ahead of anything the DA has even conceived anywhere else.

The ANC has failed, the DA has passed, succeeded even. Accept it, move on and convince other people to do so also

Not getting the basics right. Not maintaining what exists, but going balls to the wall with new glamour projects, they're unsure they can fund.

+100000!

Rise in protests in Western Cape: read about Operation Reclaim - you'll understand why!

The Western Cape is succeeding dispite national government. Nat'l often works against them and they make no bones about saying, there's only so much that can and may to. Budget comes completely from National Treasury, most department fall under national control and most laws and policies are decided nationally!

Hope that gives Jakes some clarity.

Rise in protests in Western Cape: read about Operation Reclaim - you'll understand why!

The Western Cape is succeeding dispite national government. Nat'l often works against them and they make no bones about saying, there's only so much that can and may to. Budget comes completely from National Treasury, most department fall under national control and most laws and policies are decided nationally!

Hope that gives Jakes some clarity.

Thank you for the clarity. As a political analyst that spent the whole of last year focusing exclusively on service delivery protest and the litany of possible causes I appreciate it.

I bemoan the fact that nothing can be discussed in this forum without everyone (including moi) turning into all-wise, condescending butt cracks.

Eish guys, back to the topic...

Bridge as at last week, looks fine to me...

http://2summers.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/bridge-at-night-sm.jpg

http://2summers.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/bridge-at-night-sm.jpg

^^ Thanks for the pic. Love the bridge. On the topic, is it being better maintained these days? Do you guys think the SA-flag multi-coloured look, looks good?

^^The last time I was in JHB CBD was last week Saturday and the bridge looked fine, not sure its being better maintained but the lighting functions as expected and yes I personally like this colour scheme.

I was searching for a thread like this one on scc. And at last..

Had a drive through the CBD the other day. What a total mess compared to Cape Town CBD. The city as a whole might not be dying, but the CBD has for sure died a long time ago.

It frightens me to think what foreigners from the US or Europe would say if they saw PTA CBD or JHB CBD today.

:ohno: :bleep:

I spent saturday at the Guildhall pub with friends from Spain, the US and Canada. They loved it. Gautrain. Brt. Dead? And why only worry about Europe and the US? Because US cities are superclean and perfect? Mmm. Be more specific. For more around how foreigners see Joburg, read 2summers.net and storyofbing.com. Also visited a friend in Ponte in Sunday. First time inside. It was exciting and bizarre. They were shooting a movie on the rooftop of the building next door. A filthy city is not a dead city. An empty city is a dead city. Cairo is not dead. Mumbai? Rio? Bogota? Tblisi? Joburg is filthy, but not dead.

Oh, and next time don't drive through the CBD. Walk it. Alone(thats what I do). Or join the joburg photowalkers. Or Jo Buitendag from past experuences. Or the gang from critical mass. Take the Gautrain. Catch the brt to joburg art gallery if you want to see a real mess! Driving in your car while making smirky comments is so suburban, don't you agree? Walk down church street on a friday afternoon and try to call the city dead. Spend an hour in the nandos on ghandi and call it dead. Go to the gym in sauer street. Spend time at the library with the students in their study areas. Chat to the shopowners in diagonal street. Talk to the barman at kitchener's. Sit in oppenheimer park. Go to edgars in eloff. Dead? Def not! Not your cup of pre-fab faux european splendorific stucko shopfront stripmall. Seems the latter is the case.

Storyofbing is a really awesome blog.

I have been to the US and walked in Denver's CBD, Manhattan etc. Our CBDs are a disgrace, with the exception of Cape Town. These places were comparable to some of the best the world has to offer a mere 20 years ago. Now it is as you say, more comparable with the likes of Mumbai and Cairo.

You might prefer high density filthy CBDs where foreigners have hijacked buildings and drugs flourish. I prefer clean, organised and SAFE CBDs.

I have heard stories of live chickens being sold in Hillbrow and pavement slaughterhouses. I mean, is the municipality that incompetent?

Live chickens! Fantastic, where? Can't get fresher than that, no matter what KFC says!

We do have big areas of serious neglect, and clown like municipalities, and they should be castrated and fired, then shot.
Just be careful of tarring the whole city with the same brush...there are also awesome vibes, up and coming areas, unique and fantastic.

Do not get me wrong. There are certainly pockets of excellence in JHB, mainly located in the suburbs. But the CBD is a disgrace, which can be proven by the flight of business and the middle class out of the CBD.

The government has in fact abandoned the CBD concept. It can also be seen in Pretoria where all new governmental buidlings are being built in the suburbs (thinking of new PIC offices near Menlyn, new SANRAL offices, new Department of Communication development in Hatfield, Department of Trade and Industry building outside Arcadia, new department of foreign affairs building)

Most of these offices used to be in the PTA CBD.

^^ have you been to the Braamfontein area and the weekend Neighbourhood goods market?

No I have not. And if its well run then I will praise it. But the CBD as a whole is neglected. No arguing that.

I'm a major fan of what's happening in the likes of Braamies, but there is so much more that can be done to turn the CBD around far quicker. Government should be implementing some massive tax and other incentives in an attempt to attract business back to the CBD. Companies should be flocking to reoccupy and build in the CBD as opposed to the likes of Sandton. Yes, it's nice seeing shiny new towers in the pipeline for Sandton, but I'd far rather see a bustling CBD. With each new headquarters being built in Sandton, that's one less company that could potentially establish/re-establish their headquarters in the CBD.

Take the UDZ scheme and build on it. Go to extremes if we have to.

And the same goes for other CBD's around the country.

No I have not. And if its well run then I will praise it. But the CBD as a whole is neglected. No arguing that.

Well then you cannot in anyway come across as credible if you do not bother to visit these thriving fantastic spaces.

I do not have to visit this place. The stark reality is that the CBD AS A WHOLE is neglected. There is really nothing in one isolated pocket within the CBD that can counter this, if there was then business would have returned. There is no middle class within the CBD. The occupancy rate of the CBD is ghastly. It is unsafe to walk within most areas within the CBD. Most businesses that can afford it have moved headquarters and have not since returned.

Try and compare it to Cape Town CBD. Its uncomparable.

I do not have to visit this place. The stark reality is that the CBD AS A WHOLE is neglected. There is really nothing in one isolated pocket within the CBD that can counter this, if there was then business would have returned. There is no middle class within the CBD. The occupancy rate of the CBD is ghastly. It is unsafe to walk within most areas within the CBD. Most businesses that can afford it have moved headquarters and have not since returned.

Try and compare it to Cape Town CBD. Its uncomparable.


You don't need to visit Braamfontein? An entire neighbourhood with a high-speed train link, hotels, theatres, restaurants, art museums, shops, creative industries, loft apartments (155 on Smit comes to mind)? You don't. Clearly a part of the CBD that compares to the size of other cities' entire CBDs should be discounted. Because suburban strip malls are pretty.

There no middle class in the CBD. Living in an apartment (one of the renovated ones) will cost you between R3500 and R6500 a month. If you want to rent the penthouse at 155 Smit, prepare to pay R20 000+ a month. A friend of mine moved into Ponte 3 weeks ago. He pays R5000 for a 2 bedroom. What you meant to say? There are no white people in the CBD (even though this is a wrong assumption). There are thousands and thousands of middle class BLACK people in the city. But I know some Capetonians (not all of you!) like to see black people as lower middle class, regardless of the fact that newly renovated apartments in the CBD cater for those earning R9000 - R16000 a month.

The occupancy rates are ghastly? OK, they sit at 15,2%. Centurion CBD has a higher vacancy rate. Down from where? Do you know where they were in the mid-2000's? Why, pray tell, are building renovated around every corner?

Businesses are RUNNING for the north? MMM. ABSA extended their campus. Standard Bank is pushing in money for their new mega block. Atterbury is building shopping malls in Newtown. FNB built new office blocks. Property developers like PACE, CITIPROP and SouthPoint are making MASSIVE investments - you can see SouthPoint buildings all over Braamfontein. They look spectacular. New art museums. New artist hotspots like MainStreetLife. New international hotel chains (for example in the old Stuttaford's building). All the major retailers are still in town you know? Anglo will soon be extending their campus.

You can't walk anywhere because you will die? This is where I stop engaging with you. I walk EVERYWHERE in the CBD. Nothing happened. Our friend Bing, a small lady from Singapour, joins in on the fun (with her camera). Yes, things happen. A smash and grab on Bree has everyone fainting, yet you get smashed and grabbed everywhere in South Africa! Come on dude. Clearly you are just ignorant, and from your postings it is clear that you spent 5minutes34 tense seconds in the CBD before running.

Am I saying the CBD is a haven of safe whiteboy suburbia? It is not. Thank GOD. It is gritty, and the lack of infrastructure upkeep has me fuming every day. But a ghosttown with chickens running around? Clearly you don't know shit about the CBD. If you stopped by saying the city looks shabby and filthy we would have gone with you. But now you start making general comments that are unfounded and unrelated to reality.

Oh, and you walked in Denver and Manhattan? Good for you. I lived in Dayton (ohio) for a year. Talk about a dead city center (actually, if you spot people you win). Go to Detroit to see urban decay. Just travel outside the central part of Washington, and then we can talk again. Feel unsafe in Jozi? Walk U-street in Washington, then we talk again. Go to Baltimore if you want to see weeds. Travel through LA, and then make comments. Manhattan? Go beyond 125th street if you want to see some trashy sidewalks. I am not saying the above cities are failed, dead or worse than Joburg. What am I saying? You need to see things in context dude. I am just glad you were not in Joburg 10 years ago. Then you would have been living in Perth by now.

Peace.

From all my statements. Pleaaaase don't read into it that I am denying frustrations with the city's performance. I curse every single time I have to drive down Oxford and the bloody lights are out again (the horrors of suburbia). But I also refuse to discount ALL successes just because the city is not performing. Private investors like Adam Levy and others have had massive impact on the central parts of town. But some people don't want this. They want the entire place to be magically transformed overnight. Joburg CBD can swallow PTA, DURBAN, CTN, PE. It is HUGE. Braamfontein on its own rival most other cities entire CBDs. So now we just chuck that out? Because it doesn't fit into your greater scheme of reductionist paranoia.


Oh, and for vacancy rates: Read this document. Joburg CBD is at 17%, CT at 10%. Not the 85% dramatic empty ghastly chicken-run that you painted.
http://www.rode.co.za/news/research/Research_article_2012-Mar.pdf

Hey man be satisfied with mediocre then. As we South Africans are more and more used to looking past unmaintained and decaying infrastructure and saying: "Hey look! Theres one flat here for rent at Rx per month. Oh and look over there is a neat little restaurant! This must surely mean that the CBD is alive again!" While only 20 years ago THE WHOLE CBD WAS LIKE THIS.

Its funny when people also say: "I walked everywhere in the CBD and did not get mugged.......... this must surely mean that the CBD is good?" While in the US and Europe it is taken for granted that you will be safe. 20 years ago you could hang out in Hillbrow at 2 in the morning and you would be safe.

Do you simply deny blindly that large parts of the cbd have been taken over by illegals and that the municipality is turning a blind eye towards it? Do you even know that Hillbrow was the nightlife capital of Johannesburg 20 years ago?

The banks have all over the country stuck to the CBDs? Do you see any of those bankers walk around and live in the CBD? Or do the majority live in the suburbs?

Just go and walk in Cape Town CBD and you will see how it should be.

You don't need to visit Braamfontein? An entire neighbourhood with a high-speed train link, hotels, theatres, restaurants, art museums, shops, creative industries, loft apartments (155 on Smit comes to mind)? You don't. Clearly a part of the CBD that compares to the size of other cities' entire CBDs should be discounted. Because suburban strip malls are pretty.

There no middle class in the CBD. Living in an apartment (one of the renovated ones) will cost you between R3500 and R6500 a month. If you want to rent the penthouse at 155 Smit, prepare to pay R20 000+ a month. A friend of mine moved into Ponte 3 weeks ago. He pays R5000 for a 2 bedroom. What you meant to say? There are no white people in the CBD (even though this is a wrong assumption). There are thousands and thousands of middle class BLACK people in the city. But I know some Capetonians (not all of you!) like to see black people as lower middle class, regardless of the fact that newly renovated apartments in the CBD cater for those earning R9000 - R16000 a month.

The occupancy rates are ghastly? OK, they sit at 15,2%. Centurion CBD has a higher vacancy rate. Down from where? Do you know where they were in the mid-2000's? Why, pray tell, are building renovated around every corner?

Businesses are RUNNING for the north? MMM. ABSA extended their campus. Standard Bank is pushing in money for their new mega block. Atterbury is building shopping malls in Newtown. FNB built new office blocks. Property developers like PACE, CITIPROP and SouthPoint are making MASSIVE investments - you can see SouthPoint buildings all over Braamfontein. They look spectacular. New art museums. New artist hotspots like MainStreetLife. New international hotel chains (for example in the old Stuttaford's building). All the major retailers are still in town you know? Anglo will soon be extending their campus.

You can't walk anywhere because you will die? This is where I stop engaging with you. I walk EVERYWHERE in the CBD. Nothing happened. Our friend Bing, a small lady from Singapour, joins in on the fun (with her camera). Yes, things happen. A smash and grab on Bree has everyone fainting, yet you get smashed and grabbed everywhere in South Africa! Come on dude. Clearly you are just ignorant, and from your postings it is clear that you spent 5minutes34 tense seconds in the CBD before running.

Am I saying the CBD is a haven of safe whiteboy suburbia? It is not. Thank GOD. It is gritty, and the lack of infrastructure upkeep has me fuming every day. But a ghosttown with chickens running around? Clearly you don't know shit about the CBD. If you stopped by saying the city looks shabby and filthy we would have gone with you. But now you start making general comments that are unfounded and unrelated to reality.

Oh, and you walked in Denver and Manhattan? Good for you. I lived in Dayton (ohio) for a year. Talk about a dead city center (actually, if you spot people you win). Go to Detroit to see urban decay. Just travel outside the central part of Washington, and then we can talk again. Feel unsafe in Jozi? Walk U-street in Washington, then we talk again. Go to Baltimore if you want to see weeds. Travel through LA, and then make comments. Manhattan? Go beyond 125th street if you want to see some trashy sidewalks. I am not saying the above cities are failed, dead or worse than Joburg. What am I saying? You need to see things in context dude. I am just glad you were not in Joburg 10 years ago. Then you would have been living in Perth by now.

Peace.

:applause: Best piece of writing i've read on this forum. thank you Jakes. :cheers:

Hey man be satisfied with mediocre then. As we South Africans are more and more used to looking past unmaintained and decaying infrastructure and saying: "Hey look! Theres one flat here for rent at Rx per month. Oh and look over there is a neat little restaurant! This must surely mean that the CBD is alive again!" While only 20 years ago THE WHOLE CBD WAS LIKE THIS.

Its funny when people also say: "I walked everywhere in the CBD and did not get mugged.......... this must surely mean that the CBD is good?" While in the US and Europe it is taken for granted that you will be safe. 20 years ago you could hang out in Hillbrow at 2 in the morning and you would be safe.

Do you simply deny blindly that large parts of the cbd have been taken over by illegals and that the municipality is turning a blind eye towards it? Do you even know that Hillbrow was the nightlife capital of Johannesburg 20 years ago?

The banks have all over the country stuck to the CBDs? Do you see any of those bankers walk around and live in the CBD? Or do the majority live in the suburbs?

Just go and walk in Cape Town CBD and you will see how it should be.

You really need to remember what was happening outside your little haven of Hillbrow 20 years ago. harboring delusions and prejudices from the past will continue to blur your vision. :nuts:

So whats your point? That apartheid is the cause of the neglect of the current cbd?

^^Roddas, how do you know so much about SA? just axing, nothing related to this particular thread

^^Roddas, how do you know so much about SA? just axing, nothing related to this particular thread

Been to SA many times and hope to do business there. :)

So whats your point? That apartheid is the cause of the neglect of the current cbd?

Your nostalgia for the good-ol-dayz is my point.

Hey man be satisfied with mediocre then. As we South Africans are more and more used to looking past unmaintained and decaying infrastructure and saying: "Hey look! Theres one flat here for rent at Rx per month. Oh and look over there is a neat little restaurant! This must surely mean that the CBD is alive again!" While only 20 years ago THE WHOLE CBD WAS LIKE THIS.

Its funny when people also say: "I walked everywhere in the CBD and did not get mugged.......... this must surely mean that the CBD is good?" While in the US and Europe it is taken for granted that you will be safe. 20 years ago you could hang out in Hillbrow at 2 in the morning and you would be safe.

Do you simply deny blindly that large parts of the cbd have been taken over by illegals and that the municipality is turning a blind eye towards it? Do you even know that Hillbrow was the nightlife capital of Johannesburg 20 years ago?

The banks have all over the country stuck to the CBDs? Do you see any of those bankers walk around and live in the CBD? Or do the majority live in the suburbs?

Just go and walk in Cape Town CBD and you will see how it should be.

I walk in the Cape Town CBD often - in fact, will be back next week. And it is lovely (depending on where you are). Yet you are making gross assumptions about Joburg. I know many many black professionals that WORK in the CBD and LIVE in the CBD and WALK to work. Spend a day with me in the CBD and you will be very surprized. I see many of the bankers walk in the city, have you been to Ghandi square over lunch?

Joburg CBD is expansive. For example, Marshalltown is huge, and vastly different from the Shopping district, that is next door. This is again very different to Fashion District. Or the area around Arts on Main. Braamfontein is also large, with many little districts contained within the area. Park Station is a block on its own. Joubert Park, the epitome of Johannesburg's fall from grace. The whole city is not Hillbrow. The entire CBD is not Hillbrow.

Happy with the lack of performance? Happy with overflowing drains and rubbish? When did I say this? But I am happy that innovative individuals are seeing opportunities. Making things work. instead of sitting back and complaining rather loudly that government is not doing enough. Many many many people are working to change perceptions about the city. Young people are flooding back. I know many people that live in the city.

It is an extremely grimy city. A pity it is not rosewater and holy blossoms like you have in Cape Town. Oh how I wish we had a mother goose to make all our problems disappear in a cloud of fairy dust and butterflies. in the meantime, you have made it quite clear that you know very little about the actual joburg CBD. you are more than entitled to your opinion. Even though it is about as thin as a matzo cracker.

So Im entitled to my opinion yet is sooo thin? :lol: well then it is you versus me and the majority of large corporates that was stationed in the CBD that has moved out.. Few cities in the world I can think of where a whole new business district (Sandton) sprang up because the previous one imploded. These "professional" blacks as you call them.. Be that as it may. Not sure how you define a professional career but the majority of professional black CA(SA)s that work in the JHB area definitely do not live in the CBD. They live in upmarket security estates in the suburbs.

Thats enough of this for me now.

So Im entitled to my opinion yet is sooo thin? :lol: well then it is you versus me and the majority of large corporates that was stationed in the CBD that has moved out.. Few cities in the world I can think of where a whole new business district (Sandton) sprang up because the previous one imploded. These "professional" blacks as you call them.. Be that as it may. Not sure how you define a professional career but the majority of professional black CA(SA)s that work in the JHB area definitely do not live in the CBD. They live in upmarket security estates in the suburbs.

Thats enough of this for me now.

First: Dayton (Ohio) is a good example. Most businesses relocated to the outskirts (like Centerville, Moraine and Beavercreek) because of perceived safety issues in the CBD and too many cars and lacking transport. Faircreek in Dayton is very much like Melrose Arch. They even recreated some of the buildings that are "lost" downtown. Detroit has a similar story. As does Indianapolis. Cincinatti and Cleveland both have decentralized businessnodes. Columbus decentralized a lot, but managed to salvage downtown in a way that few other Ohio, Michigan and Indiana cities could. It is known as the only city in the Midwest with a viable downtown. The reason? Race riots in the 1950s had whites flee to perceived zones of safety. They left their mansions to rot (like Dayton Heights in Dayton with its beautiful turn-of-the-century houses that are now falling apart). The Dayton Art Museum compares well with Joburg Art Gallery. Amazing collection, but most whites are just too afraid to cross the bridge into West Dayton. So Joburg's story is not unique.

A few pictures:

A dangerous coffee hangout in the banking district, across from Standard Bank. Many bankers are shot here on a daily basis.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg081.jpg

Dangerous muggers run amock. Rissik Street
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg083.jpg

Tourists were lined up and shot and killed while waiting for a bus in Ghandi Square
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg079.jpg

An acid spewing fountain in front of the Gauteng Legislature (the latter is undergoing massive renovation)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg067.jpg

Xenophobic signs in a shopfront in Rissik Street
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg069.jpg

Commissioner street and the ruins of the Rand Club
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg058.jpg

Shocking images: Diagonal street
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg036.jpg

Come on, this is funny! Main street
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg017.jpg

The Grove in Braamfontein. Giant muggers attacking unsuspecting tourists
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg003.jpg

Killing fields: Braamfontein
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Braamfontein2011049.jpg

Bullet proof glass
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Braamfontein2011045.jpg

Looking up, I realized the sky was falling
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Braamfontein2011034.jpg

Lofts - good for jumping
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Braamfontein2011013.jpg

Blood spattered sidewalks - Juta Street
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Braamfontein2011032.jpg

Running for safety
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Braamfontein2011007.jpg

Oh please do not force me to post pictures of horrid neglect in the CBD ill probably get banned :lol: some of those captions are funny though I'll give you that.

Riding the bus
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Jaco004.jpg

Juta at night
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Jaco001.jpg

Joubert Park: For the more adventurous!
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Jaco024.jpg

Dead streets
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg048.jpg

Waiting to murder someone: Beyers Naude Square
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg023.jpg

The disgusting library
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg026.jpg

Evacuating business people out of the CBD
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg095.jpg

Panic-stricken masses
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg012.jpg

Frantic the problem with you is that you keep harbouring on the same point and refuse to accept that improvement is happening. No one, including jakes, is saying it is perfect, it has big problems, but you have to start somewhere. if you ignore the pockets of success and turnaround then it is evident that you actually do not care to hear reason and you probably do not want to see change. Change and improvement is a slow process. Heck the Cape Town CBD is still far from perfect. Revitlisation needs to start with pockets and reverbirate out from there, causing a knock on effect, street after street. It takes time. If you wanna just flick a switch and expect shit to happen you live in crazy land. Its going to take decades to turnaround the entire JHB CBD, why decry the efforts that are gaining traction? you need those pockets. if you give up on everything so easily life aint going to be a happy journey.

Oh please do not force me to post pictures of horrid neglect in the CBD ill probably get banned :lol: some of those captions are funny though I'll give you that.

My point sir is not to paint a picture of a pristine metropolis. Every statement has to be grounded in CONTEXT. So I show you a picture of a restaurant, you show me a picture of Lorna Court in Joubert Park. So your 10 bad pictures prove that the entire city is a dump? Just as my 10 pictures prove that the entire city is a wonderful nirvana of urban bliss? See where I am going.

Your statements are grounded by emotion, not fact. NO MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE LIVE IN THE CBD, you said. In fact, MANY middle class people live in the CBD. I am also assuming that you have been tainted by your conception of middle class. Income of R30 000 a month does not make you middle class in South Africa. Yes, we see horrid neglect in the CBD. But we also see amazing initiatives. You stated that the city is DEAD. On that I can never agree with you. There is a cute little blog called Death of Joburg. It hasn't been updated in ages. So take your snarky pictures and depressing demeanor there. It will be welcomed.

I took the bus to the Joburg Art Gallery the other day. I love the place. Sadly, this is a neglected space. It needs LOADS of cash (and management).
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco022.jpg

A white friend of mine moved into Ponte. This is the view from the living room.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco009.jpg

This will soon be residential refurb. Those Eduardo Villa panels are breath-taking.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco011.jpg

You need to drink when you live in this city
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco013.jpg

All these suburban victims came to look for refuge in the empty parking lot (Neighbourgoods Market). They were shooting outside! Shooting a movie, that is.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco016.jpg

New office space overlooking the bridge, not Sandton. I think this is the new Nike concept lab.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco012.jpg

Even international guys. Richard Branson's center for innovation
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco017.jpg

White people live in this building. Some of them are middle class.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco019.jpg

Crack? Heroin? Nope. Tea and coffee syphons. Double Shot Coffee and Tea.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco023.jpg

View from Lamunu Hotel. I stayed for the night
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco020.jpg



The neglected bridge.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Joburg2012Pics/Jaco014.jpg

The ghosts of the past. Waiting for the bus
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/P2150167.jpg

A dead city with a traffic jam!
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/P2150150.jpg

More ghastly ghost travelers
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/P2150029.jpg

If only we could all be like this
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/P2150096.jpg

Dance Studios in Newtown
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/P2150134.jpg

My European friends LOVE this place
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/P2150073.jpg

It seems that the white people left so quickly that they forgot their shoes.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Johannesburg1256.jpg

And finally. The only thing left in the city are spaza shops.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/granova/Johannesburg1113.jpg

Your optimism can be quite infectious at times Jakes1. I'm just starting to wonder if you aren't beginning to slip into a false sense of security by always coming back to known pockets of (privately funded) excellence in the city. As you rightly point out, Joburg CBD is huge.

You have an opinion, we all know it. However I've never quite deciphered what your true opinion is. You seem to say that the CBD is a hive of activity, is bustling, is a huge wealth of opportunity just waiting to be discovered by some saintly private developer who will eventually buy up the whole CBD and transform it. What does this even mean? The CBD is dirty, unmanaged, by-laws aren't even in the vocabulary of the police, shoddy repairs are done to even shoddier infrastructure. But I guess this just adds to the "vibrancy" and "bustling" nature of the city? One white person that you know moved into Ponte. All hail the transformation of the city! The area around Ponte looks like an African warzone, and I for one would not live there if you paid me. But I'm just a rich white suburban who doesn't know what he's talking about. Oh well.

I don't know why you keep comparing Joburg to cities elsewhere around the world, none of them are even remotely related to the fundamental reasons why the urban decay occurred in Joburg (huge pockets of displaced black migrants living next door in townships flooded in). Anyway what is your point? That since urban decay happened in a few other cities it is reasonable for it to have happened here too? Because it isn't. Poor planning (or no planning at all), mixed with conflicting goals, lack of expertise and almost complete absence of giving a f*ck by the city is what let things reach this stage. And it's still ongoing - Cell C head office, Centurion Symbio-blah blah. Any rational city would veto this urban sprawl.

I personally think the CBD is diseased. Pockets (of privately funded) investments will not turn around a huge CBD that is not maintained. You can often try to cover up deep seated problems with facades, I for one think that CoJ hasn't even been able to keep their own facade up.

I think we need to realise that a disease can be contained but not cured unless the fundamental issue is dealt with. And we all know what this issue is. I don't subscribe to your view that because the city is "bustling" and "vibrant" that it is in fact not diseased and just a lick of paint is all that's needed to make it better. I also don't subscribe that the CBD can "never be perfect". What is your definition of a perfect city? I see no reason why it can't be perfect. Athens is dirty and grimy, and so are areas of New York and Paris. But there is no disease there (except perhaps for Athens :troll:). Those places indeed just need a lick of paint to become "perfect".

That's the joburg i remember when i was last there 2 years ago. i loved hanging out by Mary Fitzgerald Square in Newtown at the wine bars and restaurants there. stayed at the Mapungubwe Hotel on Anderson Street. :cheers:

Some of those pictures are impressive. Would have enjoyed a more balanced view of the CBD. But im not gonna post pictures as that will lead to no where. Hey man Im not attacking the people who are trying to make a difference. Good on them.

Those pictures also only attest to the outsides of buildings. Many of those buildings are flooded by illegals and squaters. Please do not show a picture of fancy people at an art gallery and the call them squaters (for although its funny, you are dodging the truth :-)).

The revival taking place is probably on a small scale when compared with the development taking place in Sandton. And therefore although the CBD may have a few fancy coffee shops and a Woolworths, it will never again attract the business that it used to have. Except maybe if Sandton also implodes in the next fifty years or so. (really hope that doesnt happen though).

Yes. Urban decay does not happen anywhere else in the world. Only Joburg. All cities resemble downtown vancouver. I have walked everywhere in this city. What do you propose inertia? Barricade the city and implode it all? Walk away? What do you want me to do? Whinge and cry? Again: your one-sided emotional breakdowns might be more suited to the styles of the real realist on doj. My apologies for not jumping on your sadship.

Black and poor = illegal. Mmm. Wonder why some liberal parties are failing to gain momentum amongst the poor. Frantic, you have clearly never set foot on a pavement in joburg. A rat would frighten you (so stay away from lily and saratonga avenues). Inertia, many cities have bad municipalities. Naples spring to mind. Corrupt and inept? Yes, we find them all over the civilized world. Joburg is not as unique as you would like to believe!

I wonder why some people spend time on this forum. I also like frantic's view that the rest of the world is Europe and the US. And Europe is one homogenous mass, all cities look like Paris and all countries are equally safe and free of corruption (i hear albanians applauding somewhere). Urban decay, illegal squatters, raw sewage, rats. Nothing new for humanity. When you visit the netherlands ask them about 'krakers.' Anyhoo. It clearly is a small world and joburg is the only poo in a field of roses. How dare we stand up for the city? How dare we not join the chorus of whining cats! How dare I call for balance? Nope. The city is dead. Its over. Close the doors. Bulldoze it all. And then move to cape town and sleep forever in the land of nod. ARGH! Ah, trash! Fuck? What will the americans say?!

Yes our buildings are in a terrible state after 30 years while some buildings in Paris, Moscow, London were built in the 18th century yet they are maintained better. Liberal parties such as? And you alone have come to the conclusion that black and poor = illegal. I am actually referring more to the Nigerian types who have infested the CBD.

I've been meaning to put my 2c in here ages ago... but God knows, I've said the same stuff over and over again, only to be puked on each time.

At the end of the day, it would seem that NO MATTER WHAT anybody says about the CBD of Joburg, the following things will ALWAYS be pointed out by Jakes1:

*He has lived in the US - they also have trash in their cities
*He knows, sorry... is friends with loads of people from other countries;
*They all just fucking LOVE Joburg!! Yes, even the muti-shop on Diagonal!
*Double Shot is amazing
*There is a Gautrain station in "Braamies"
*You can actually take pictures in the city centre
*He has lived in the US
*You don't have to be white to be "middle class"
*Neighbourgoods Market is not just a tourist attraction
*Double Shot is amazing... no really!
*Ghandi Square is on it's way to become the new place to be seen
*There is a Woolworths in town
*He has lived in the US... oh, and yes... Double Shot is just AMAZING!

There are also other back-up items which are used from time to time. There include amongst others things like Arts On Main, the ever popular Rea Vaya system, the library etc etc.

So, no matter how dirty it is in those 'other' areas, how dangerous or anything, please - pretty please - don't say the place is dead. It's not. It is just like any other World City and it ROCKS man!

Joburg - An African Class World City!!! :banana:

Jakes you are really misunderstanding my comments here. I have said so many times the CBD was comparable to cities in Europe and America and that is shameful how far it has fallen? I can obviously understand that a city such as Mumbai has never been comparable with the likes of Chigaco etc, and therefore I do not judge them against those standards.

I do however see that you agree with me that the CBD is no longer comparable with American cities and that we must now be comfortable to be in the 3rd world league. How comforting.

Yes our buildings are in a terrible state after 30 years while some buildings in Paris, Moscow, London were built in the 18th century yet they are maintained better. Liberal parties such as? And you alone have come to the conclusion that black and poor = illegal. I am actually referring more to the Nigerian types who have infested the CBD.

Europe good. Nigeria bad. Got it. I can see why you embrace this simple, reducionist worldview! Makes life a lot less complicated! Why consider all angles when you can simply lop everything into two convenient categories. Brilliant! At least you are a liberal pessimist. How nice to include Putin's Russia in as an example of efficiency and progress!

I've been meaning to put my 2c in here ages ago... but God knows, I've said the same stuff over and over again, only to be puked on each time.

At the end of the day, it would seem that NO MATTER WHAT anybody says about the CBD of Joburg, the following things will ALWAYS be pointed out by Jakes1:

*He has lived in the US - they also have trash in their cities
*He knows, sorry... is friends with loads of people from other countries;
*They all just fucking LOVE Joburg!! Yes, even the muti-shop on Diagonal!
*Double Shot is amazing
*There is a Gautrain station in "Braamies"
*You can actually take pictures in the city centre
*He has lived in the US
*You don't have to be white to be "middle class"
*Neighbourgoods Market is not just a tourist attraction
*Double Shot is amazing... no really!
*Ghandi Square is on it's way to become the new place to be seen
*There is a Woolworths in town
*He has lived in the US... oh, and yes... Double Shot is just AMAZING!

There are also other back-up items which are used from time to time. There include amongst others things like Arts On Main, the ever popular Rea Vaya system, the library etc etc.

So, no matter how dirty it is in those 'other' areas, how dangerous or anything, please - pretty please - don't say the place is dead. It's not. It is just like any other World City and it ROCKS man!

Joburg - An African Class World City!!! :banana:

My mom told me never to say 'fuck you' to anyone. What a turd.

Yes. Urban decay does not happen anywhere else in the world. Only Joburg. All cities resemble downtown vancouver. I have walked everywhere in this city. What do you propose inertia? Barricade the city and implode it all? Walk away? What do you want me to do? Whinge and cry? Again: your one-sided emotional breakdowns might be more suited to the styles of the real realist on doj. My apologies for not jumping on your sadship.

Whatever man. I propose the ANC gets voted out of government. There is no other solution. Why don't you just move into the second bedroom of your friend in Ponte and stop posting here - if things are so freaking vibrant and bustling I don't know why you have to fight tooth and nail to prove it. Seems like you are trying to convince it to yourself more than us...

I've been meaning to put my 2c in here ages ago... but God knows, I've said the same stuff over and over again, only to be puked on each time.

At the end of the day, it would seem that NO MATTER WHAT anybody says about the CBD of Joburg, the following things will ALWAYS be pointed out by Jakes1:

*He has lived in the US - they also have trash in their cities
*He knows, sorry... is friends with loads of people from other countries;
*They all just fucking LOVE Joburg!! Yes, even the muti-shop on Diagonal!
*Double Shot is amazing
*There is a Gautrain station in "Braamies"
*You can actually take pictures in the city centre
*He has lived in the US
*You don't have to be white to be "middle class"
*Neighbourgoods Market is not just a tourist attraction
*Double Shot is amazing... no really!
*Ghandi Square is on it's way to become the new place to be seen
*There is a Woolworths in town
*He has lived in the US... oh, and yes... Double Shot is just AMAZING!

There are also other back-up items which are used from time to time. There include amongst others things like Arts On Main, the ever popular Rea Vaya system, the library etc etc.

So, no matter how dirty it is in those 'other' areas, how dangerous or anything, please - pretty please - don't say the place is dead. It's not. It is just like any other World City and it ROCKS man!

Joburg - An African Class World City!!! :banana:

I lol'd

Don't forget Joburg is "bustling" and "vibrant", and that we are all racist whitey's living behind 10 foot walls with electric fences, and we only converse with black people when we tell our maids to make our beds. Jakes1 ofcourse lives in Berea and actually owns a soup kitchen in which he serves vibrant and bustling people all day.

Whatever man. I propose the ANC gets voted out of government. There is no other solution. Why don't you just move into the second bedroom of your friend in Ponte and stop posting here - if things are so freaking vibrant and bustling I don't know why you have to fight tooth and nail to prove it. Seems like you are trying to convince it to yourself more than us...



I lol'd

Don't forget Joburg is "bustling" and "vibrant", and that we are all racist whitey's living behind 10 foot walls with electric fences, and we only converse with black people when we tell our maids to make our beds. Jakes1 ofcourse lives in Berea and actually owns a soup kitchen in which he serves vibrant and bustling people all day.

Sigh. Yes, save me please. I want to be an angry gorilla too! I can't think of anything more fun than spewing bile and attacking joburg all day.

Europe good. Nigeria bad. Got it. I can see why you embrace this simple, reducionist worldview! Makes life a lot less complicated! Why consider all angles when you can simply lop everything into two convenient categories. Brilliant! At least you are a liberal pessimist. How nice to include Putin's Russia in as an example of efficiency and progress!

Im talking about the condition of Moscow's old buildings? :nuts: Not the efficiency of its political parties?? And if you think that the Nigerian drug sellers are a boost for the CBD then well im speechless.

Im talking about the condition of Moscow's old buildings? :nuts: Not the efficiency of its political parties?? And if you think that the Nigerian drug sellers are a boost for the CBD then well im speechless.

Ok. Joburg is doomed. Will move to perth tomorrow.

Sigh. Yes, save me please. I want to be an angry gorilla too! I can't think of anything more fun than spewing bile and attacking joburg all day.

Awesome. Enjoy Joburg while I'm gone. Tell Bing, Martina (woops, she left already!), and all the other expats I say waddup.

I could get a bit more sassy and condescending but I wouldn't wanna upstage you.

Kisses

Ok. Joburg is doomed. Will move to perth tomorrow.

Lol well the apacolypse might be near for the city if it has been voted the most dangerous city in the world (outside of warzones):nuts:

Europe good. Nigeria bad. Got it. I can see why you embrace this simple, reducionist worldview! Makes life a lot less complicated! Why consider all angles when you can simply lop everything into two convenient categories. Brilliant! At least you are a liberal pessimist. How nice to include Putin's Russia in as an example of efficiency and progress!

:rofl:

frantic where on earth do you live?

He lives in 1985. Johannesburg was the envy of the modern world. Women from Paris came to shop for fashion in Eloff street. PW Botha was a respected leader. And Nigerians lived in Nigeria.

Lol well the apacolypse might be near for the city if it has been voted the most dangerous city in the world (outside of warzones):nuts:

Really? Voted? By your gurus at wikipedia. Interesting, as CT has a much higher murder rate. So maybe we should all just move back to Europe? Or PE, clearly Waltjie is immune to the friendly city?

jakes i applaud your resilience in seeking balance. i wont repeat any of the points you have made. couldn't be as eloquent and people have entrenched views. they're unlikely to change. its all very subjective, how we see joburg or any other city. if you think that joburg is a dead cesspool beyond saving why is it necessary to shout down anyone that doesn't think so. whether joburg has been in decline for the past 20years is also a matter of subjectivity. i was there in 1992, we might argue the scope of the improvement/decline but i certainly don't see the major slide.

people might lapoon the fact that you have friends who live in the cbd, like the cbd and have preferred places to go to. its your truth. happens to be mine too. i'll again spare my anecdotal points for the same reasons as above. what is worrying though is the lack of acceptance/respect for opposing view points. why attack someone's love and passion for a place or anything.

this binary and damning take on joburg is just an extension of the broader south african dialogue. its like SA is divided into 2 gangs right now. Those that criticise anything and everything that government does and those who defend it. You have to be all in, you can't bring any nuance to the discussion. the CRIPics run this forum and its an unwelcoming place for anyone else.

I currently live in the cbd of cape town and I spend a lot of time in joburg. And its possible to like both cities for different reasons. I'll make the point about cape town because it comes up often when the point of the decline of jozi is made.

you are correct in making reference to socio-economics which unfortunatley in south africa is a synonym for race. This discussion of joburg cape town is almost often focused on the cbd and the suburbs. But if you had to look at the most populous areas in both cities soweto/khayelitsha and ask residents of these places how they see joburg and cape town you'll get very different views to that of joburg being a failed city. Might not be your concern if you don't live or have any interest in those areas but its valid and illustrates the point of subjectivity. The relative state of these places today is just as stark as the relative state of the cbds. Khayelitsha is years behind. You could also ask a one of the many middle class family in joburg who now live in a rehabilitated clean well run building in the cbd close to transport and you'll get a different answer. Cape town has not achieved as much as jozi when it comes to inclusive and accessible housing in the city.

How you see joburg is subjective. Just wish people would allow others to see it through their own eyes

jakes i applaud your resilience in seeking balance. i wont repeat any of the points you have made. couldn't be as eloquent and people have entrenched views. they're unlikely to change. its all very subjective, how we see joburg or any other city. if you think that joburg is a dead cesspool beyond saving why is it necessary to shout down anyone that doesn't think so. whether joburg has been in decline for the past 20years is also a matter of subjectivity. i was there in 1992, we might argue the scope of the improvement/decline but i certainly don't see the major slide.

people might lapoon the fact that you have friends who live in the cbd, like the cbd and have preferred places to go to. its your truth. happens to be mine too. i'll again spare my anecdotal points for the same reasons as above. what is worrying though is the lack of acceptance/respect for opposing view points. why attack someone's love and passion for a place or anything.

this binary and damning take on joburg is just an extension of the broader south african dialogue. its like SA is divided into 2 gangs right now. Those that criticise anything and everything that government does and those who defend it. You have to be all in, you can't bring any nuance to the discussion. the CRIPics run this forum and its an unwelcoming place for anyone else.

I currently live in the cbd of cape town and I spend a lot of time in joburg. And its possible to like both cities for different reasons. I'll make the point about cape town because it comes up often when the point of the decline of jozi is made.

you are correct in making reference to socio-economics which unfortunatley in south africa is a synonym for race. This discussion of joburg cape town is almost often focused on the cbd and the suburbs. But if you had to look at the most populous areas in both cities soweto/khayelitsha and ask residents of these places how they see joburg and cape town you'll get very different views to that of joburg being a failed city. Might not be your concern if you don't live or have any interest in those areas but its valid and illustrates the point of subjectivity. The relative state of these places today is just as stark as the relative state of the cbds. Khayelitsha is years behind. You could also ask a one of the many middle class family in joburg who now live in a rehabilitated clean well run building in the cbd close to transport and you'll get a different answer. Cape town has not achieved as much as jozi when it comes to inclusive and accessible housing in the city.

How you see joburg is subjective. Just wish people would allow others to see it through their own eyes

Well then I enjoy your take on subjectivity, but taking it down to the level of the poorest and then looking at what is mediocre and badly run and saying it is good, those are not the standards this country should be run on. We should aim higher than this. Why must we be accepting of badly run municipalities because in the eyes of the poor they are well run. Why not aim for excellence? This is a defeatist viewpoint.

And YES people do start blogs about the decay in the CBD and I can understand why. Some of those people grew up in JHB and lived in the CBD maybe even for decades. Some people were just as excited about the CBD's boom times as we now get with Sandton.
Imagine then how bad it must be for those people when everything they attached pride to now is a dump. Oh how angry we would become if a place like Sandton goes down, im sure quite a few people here would then also start blogs...

Your resilient embrace of pessimism must be applauded. In the same way your inventive romaticism concerning history? Quite adorable. Thanks for sharing your 'truths' with us. Your benevolent fact-hashing surely inspired Waltjie to drag himself further along the lonely highway of dispair. And Inertia needed a shoulder to moan on. As for me? I enjoy the banter. I have a soup kitchen to run.

Well then I enjoy your take on subjectivity, but taking it down to the level of the poorest and then looking at what is mediocre and badly run and saying it is good, those are not the standards this country should be run on. We should aim higher than this. Why must we be accepting of badly run municipalities because in the eyes of the poor they are well run. Why not aim for excellence? This is a defeatist viewpoint.

And YES people do start blogs about the decay in the CBD and I can understand why. Some of those people grew up in JHB and lived in the CBD maybe even for decades. Some people were just as excited about the CBD's boom times as we now get with Sandton.
Imagine then how bad it must be for those people when everything they attached pride to now is a dump. Oh how angry we would become if a place like Sandton goes down, im sure quite a few people here would then also start blogs...

being poor or having less money does not handicap one from having a concept of excellence in the same way as having money doesn't specially enables someone. people, rich and poor, know what they want expect and what is good or excellent. peoples opinions carry the same weight regardless of how much money they have. to me anyhow. so i can see how a resident of soweto or brickfields can say how their local government has been good or excellent(symantics) especially when taking into account what things were like in those places 10 years ago. that someone that lives in sandton might not witness the same upward trend is informed by their immediate environment.

if joburg had a sparking cbd which was socially non inclusive and stood as an island amidst a generally decaying city; it wouldn't be worthwhile to hold it up as an example of the city as a whole.

in the same way, saying that joburg is a failed city and focusing on the cbd and a narrow socio-economic band for its comment is also not complete.

what is good, bad or excellent is also a matter of subjectivity and cities can be all those things at once. depends where you look look and who you talk to

^^ Hahahaha! Jakes1, Dude you should become a poet! I swear to God! Some of the things you come up with! :hilarious

Its totally subjective and no one will ever win as clearly those here with strong views fail to read either sides opinion with any measure of respect.

The question is how we each judge success. Is cape town better off as a city than joburg because it has turned around its city centre, but has townships in a far worse state of affairs than most of joburgs? We will never agree as some will only care about a pristine cbd and frankly not care about the township, while others will champion that a city needs to focus heavily on improving the lives of those at the bottom end first before getting shiny city centres.

You guys will continue to go in circles here. But the naivety of some is frightening for educated people.

From all my statements. Pleaaaase don't read into it that I am denying frustrations with the city's performance. I curse every single time I have to drive down Oxford and the bloody lights are out again (the horrors of suburbia). But I also refuse to discount ALL successes just because the city is not performing. Private investors like Adam Levy and others have had massive impact on the central parts of town. But some people don't want this. They want the entire place to be magically transformed overnight. Joburg CBD can swallow PTA, DURBAN, CTN, PE. It is HUGE. Braamfontein on its own rival most other cities entire CBDs. So now we just chuck that out? Because it doesn't fit into your greater scheme of reductionist paranoia.


Oh, and for vacancy rates: Read this document. Joburg CBD is at 17%, CT at 10%. Not the 85% dramatic empty ghastly chicken-run that you painted.
http://www.rode.co.za/news/research/Research_article_2012-Mar.pdf

Just my 2 cents on this. Things are far from perfect in Joburg, but the city is making great strides. ROME WAS NOT BUILT IN A DAY.

An example of things that are improving. Almost all the lights are WORKING now on Oxford street, all the way from Rosebank to Parktown. I would say 96% of the lights are working with the few that are off, mainly because of malfunctioning of the actual wiring on the lamp post. This is true of many areas in and around Joburg including Rivonia rd, Bowling,Witkoppen, Louis Botha, Corlett drive, Jan Smuts, William Nicol, Commissioner street, Rissik street, Simmonds street, Harrison street, M1, M2, N1, R21, N3 etc.

if you see lights that are not working today, chances are they will be working in the next 3-4 weeks. I have been observing this and the Joburg Power guys are really working hard to switch on the lights.

The R24 from Gilloolys Interchange to OR Tambo continues to disappoint though under Ekurhuleni municipality.

How you see joburg is subjective. Just wish people would allow others to see it through their own eyes

Yes people can see Joburg differently depending on their socio-economic condition. But more importantly, they can also see it differently because of what they have experienced in their lives or not. What they have been exposed to.

Two examples i want to give:-

Ask my uncle about downtown Joburg. He is 67 years old and used to work and live at Wits university from 1967 - 1993, he is black, poor and definitely not in the middle class. He now live back in our village in Limpopo, where he came from. He will tell you "it is filthy and looks like a village". I am quoting his exact words when he came to visit me early this year after 19 years of being away from Joburg.

Take another example, a resident of Alexandra, Joburg who regularly gets in a mini bus taxi in Alexandra and wait for an hour before it gets full and depart to randburg, may not be bothered at all with the time it takes to commute from Alex to Randburg, because that is what they have always experienced and seen. So it would seem the mini bus taxi is functioning well. As long as they make sure they budget 2 hours to travel from Alex to Randburg, everything is fine. But take someone from Accra, Ghana (i recently hosted a friend from Accra and i also worked there for 2 years), they will be so surprised that it takes this long to get from Alex to Randburg and you actually wait inside the mini bus taxi for so long. Because in Accra, they just stand on the street and a cab clearly marked in orange colours which is affordable passes every 5 minutes. They just hop in and 10 -15 minutes later, they have arrived where they are going.

What is wrong with the South African forum? Practically every other forum on SSC is positive, progressive, and forward thinking. Yet so many here whine and complain and are extremely pessimistic. If someone has a passion for their city (which is the point of SSC) like Jakes they are shot down then lit on fire. It is ridiculous.

If some of you hate Joburg so much why not move to my city of Nashville. It is a friendly city that is far far away from the doomed apocalypse of Johannesburg.

I am trying to understand why neigbourgoods market is a 'tourist attraction,' as cited by some, when it is mostly Joburgers that go there? Thousands of people flocking downtown every weekend - but please ignore. Because it is still not as awesome as a stripmall in bryanston.