So with the 2011 municipal elections fast approaching, what are your guys opinion on the DA taking our beloved Joburg? I haven't seen much speculation in the media regarding the possibility, and would be very interested to know if there is any chance of this happening.

IMO this is Joburg's only real solution to all its problems!

Have a look at www.dajhb.co.za , not very interesting, mostly pics of Joburg being dilapidated. Would love to know of the DA's plan of action for Joburg, because if they control Cape Town AND Johannesburg they will be in a VERY powerful position.

There isn't much of a chance..

The DA might get a slightly stronger showing but they won't take JHB.

Personally the DA's road to leading this country is a long one, its not going to happen quickly.

It would be awesome. Joburg will definitely get a new lease on life and put in a new league. But it will be tough love. DA will bring in western order and way of doing business, which I don''t believe black africans in townships are ready for yet.

^^ agreed, Cape Town was in a unique position due to its different population dynamic. I cant see the DA winning Joburg or Durban any time soon.

Also moved this to the Joburg Discussion forum due its Joburg focus.

I don't think for the next +/-4 elections that the DA could have a outright win as they did in Cape Town, however, I do see their popularity increasing. This will also depend on how they continue (if so) to run Cape Town & the Western Cape.

^^ and thats a whole different discussion in another thread

Interesting analysis. I would like to think that the majority of Joburgers have seen their city decline to a point where it is obvious that the ANC have failed. I wonder how many ANC supporters will jump ship.

Here's an email posted on the mybroadband forum that was supposedly sent out by the DA. Looks more like someone from the general public urging people to vote DA:


We MUST WIN JHB now OR it will be lost forever with many other cities in South Africa


Voting in the forthcoming BY ELECTIONS is considerably more important than you think.
In fact it is a matter of DO OR DIE.

PLEASE READ THE ATTACHED PDF – it makes our request VERY CLEAR.

If the DA does not win these local elections [ AND IT CAN IF YOU VOTE] , no other political party will ever get another chance.

JOHANNESBURG as a city –WILL NOT SURVIVE ANOTHER 5 YEARS.
Nor will most other municipalities RULED BY THE ANC.
The City of Johannesburg is bankrupt by approximately R15-billion!
And the current JHB-ANC municipality is not embarrassed to ask you to vote them back in?

PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU REGISTER AND ARE IN TOWN ON THE WEEK-END once the dates are finally set for the elections.
It will be inexcusable IF YOUR VOTE DOES NOT COUNT !!

2011 South African municipal elections:
For you and I are probably more important than NATIONAL ELECTIONS , as these elections decide WHO IS IN CHARGE OF YOUR TOWN
And WHO IS IN CHARGE OF YOUR TOWN effectively means YOU VOTE IN OR OUT the political party who decides your fate in day to day living in your town.


Registration dates: 5 and 6 February
REGISTER WHERE YOU LIVE. VOTE WHERE YOU REGISTERED.

A new DA branch in the newly-created Ward 115 was founded on 15 January 2011.

Boundaries for Ward 115:
William Nicol Road
Malibongwe Drive
Witkoppen Drive
The highway

Voting stations for Ward 115 are:
Norscot Manor Recreation Centre
Fourways High School
Magic Beings Nursery School
Blandford Manor Conference Centre.

Would it be easier to win Tshwane,Ekurhuleni and West Rand? Then the ANC would be surrounded in Joburg and will force them to do better.

^^It will obviosly not happen, the DA has limited itself as a Western Cape party, the ANC is taking over KZN the second-largest provincial economy, that will be the big story of the elections, how the ANC will make massive gains in KZN!

Joburg has never been in better condition considering its population, the economy has solid foundation, what you think is deterioriation is simply a result of the current infrastructure being unable to deal with the bigger population cruch unleashed by the end of apartheid. It is being addressed through unprecedented investment in infrastructure, see Gautrain, BRT, ORTIA, Highways. most other ANC cities are thriving economically, see PLK, Mbombela (Nel), BLM, PMB, the areas of weakness are the previously dirt-poor rural ghettoes of Areas Act...

You guys think DA rule is a panacea, has toiletgate and hout bay escaped your memory...

DA is gonna see dust in Jozi..

^^ and thats a whole different discussion in another thread
True, however still relevant to this one.

would be awesome if da won joburg

like in 200011

Sadly in the XXI century people continue too vote based on empty promises and on race. That said, I as an expat, and someone who is an investor to this country, have been too both JHB (birthplace) and CPT scouting my future home. The differences are alarming at best. CPT puts JHB in the bag when it comes too all the basic services required by any normal functioning state. Let me see if I can get this through another way, the DA isnt doing NOTHING SPECIAL, its doing what it was mandated too do by the population of the WC, something we consider normal in any other western country.
I dont vote because he or she is black or white, I vote who gives me better living conditions, but maybe, Im the idiot here?
I find it amazing that so many black SAns have acknowledged that the DA is indeed a better governing force, but will simply not vote due too its "pseudo white tendencies".

How can we have investor confidence in this country when we have a moron like Julius Malema screaming nationalization of everything? Who sings hatred songs against a minority race? Who incites racial division?
I ask of those who vote this party, HOW DO YOU EXPECT investors in SA like this?
Are you waiting for Zumas 500k job creation? Its gone and were sitting with a 1mil jobs lost.

Im at a loss for words when I see in the tabloids EVERY SINGLE DAY the amount of crime, corruption and decay that this mighty country has reached. But yet, they fast on the gun too talk about toilets and guys who were evicted because they were their illegally.
Those of you who do vote this once glorious party, you will be the ultimate loser. Those with money and power will be long gone before the shit hits the fan, and the jobs that you now praise, will be lost forever.

^^It will obviosly not happen, the DA has limited itself as a Western Cape party, the ANC is taking over KZN the second-largest provincial economy, that will be the big story of the elections, how the ANC will make massive gains in KZN!

Joburg has never been in better condition considering its population, the economy has solid foundation, what you think is deterioriation is simply a result of the current infrastructure being unable to deal with the bigger population cruch unleashed by the end of apartheid. It is being addressed through unprecedented investment in infrastructure, see Gautrain, BRT, ORTIA, Highways. most other ANC cities are thriving economically, see PLK, Mbombela (Nel), BLM, PMB, the areas of weakness are the previously dirt-poor rural ghettoes of Areas Act...

You guys think DA rule is a panacea, has toiletgate and hout bay escaped your memory...

DA is gonna see dust in Jozi..

wow seems you bring your one dimensional view to every part of the forum you visit...

You lost all credibility with that post when you mentioned PMB and Mbombela as success stories...

^^It will obviosly not happen, the DA has limited itself as a Western Cape party, the ANC is taking over KZN the second-largest provincial economy, that will be the big story of the elections, how the ANC will make massive gains in KZN!

Joburg has never been in better condition considering its population, the economy has solid foundation, what you think is deterioriation is simply a result of the current infrastructure being unable to deal with the bigger population cruch unleashed by the end of apartheid. It is being addressed through unprecedented investment in infrastructure, see Gautrain, BRT, ORTIA, Highways. most other ANC cities are thriving economically, see PLK, Mbombela (Nel), BLM, PMB, the areas of weakness are the previously dirt-poor rural ghettoes of Areas Act...

You guys think DA rule is a panacea, has toiletgate and hout bay escaped your memory...

DA is gonna see dust in Jozi..

I've been living in California for the past 2 months and trust me, Joburg is nowhere near a functioning "world class" city. All the infrastructure dev's we are seeing are nice and all, but are just covering up many of the huge underlying cracks.

You might think I'm one of those typical SA bashers but truth is I've been here much longer than you, witnessed all, and been a big fan of all the new infrastructure dev's, and can safely say that DA is the only way out of this mess

Oh, and saying something like "most other ANC cities are thriving economically" warrants an ignore

It's fine for you to show your support for your political party of choice, but do not be closed minded, ignorant and get brainwashed into believing they are the only way forward. There is not truth at all about your belief that PMB is a thriving ANC run city, the same applies with Mbombela.



You lost all credibility with that post when you mentioned PMB and Mbombela as success stories...

So true.

I highly doubt you would have had the Gautrain with the DA.

I highly doubt you would have had the Gautrain with the DA.

As much as I love the Gautrain, I would take unqualified audits for all the public entities, actual pavements and roads that are maintained, service delivery, coherent urban planning, etc, over it. And who knows, they might have developed something similar, albeit not as flashy

I've been living in California for the past 2 months and trust me, Joburg is nowhere near a functioning "world class" city. All the infrastructure dev's we are seeing are nice and all, but are just covering up many of the huge underlying cracks.

You might think I'm one of those typical SA bashers but truth is I've been here much longer than you, witnessed all, and been a big fan of all the new infrastructure dev's, and can safely say that DA is the only way out of this mess

Inertia, its no use replying. The fact is that many of those who are pro-anc supporters have never been past any of SAs borders. Thats why you get this mentality, the JHB/SA utopia. I mean dont these people see Pules posts here, the last one we saw was total chaos with JHBs world class African city motto.

^^Do you guys objectively think the DA will take Joburg? do you honestly think history is going to do a 180 degree turn dusing these elections? What indication have been there that the DA is threatening to take Jozi?


To Inertia
"I've been living in California for the past 2 months and trust me, Joburg is nowhere near a functioning "world class" city. All the infrastructure dev's we are seeing are nice and all, but are just covering up many of the huge underlying cracks.

You might think I'm one of those typical SA bashers but truth is I've been here much longer than you, witnessed all, and been a big fan of all the new infrastructure dev's, and can safely say that DA is the only way out of this mess"

What mess? Are you honestly going to argue that Joburg or SA is going backward instead of foward? Are you going to argue that Jozi has not come a long way since its bleakest days in the 90's? I've seen LA and Carlifornina and the rich areas might look nice, the rest of it looks like bleak concrete and nothing else, I would NOT want to live there.
Plus Califronia is also the most broke state in the US, in fact Gauteng and all ANC ruled areas are in a better financial state than the so-called 'developed/world-class' California.

Oh, and saying something like "most other ANC cities are thriving economically" warrants an ignore


Pics don't lie, check out the pics of ANC ruled cities, look at the northern cities capital cities.

All the heightened expectation of DA rule will come to nought. The party is going to make very marginal gains(+-3%) if any...

^^Do you guys objectively think the DA will take Joburg? do you honestly think history is going to do a 180 degree turn dusing these elections? What indication have been there that the DA is threatening to take Jozi?


To Inertia


What mess? Are you honestly going to argue that Joburg or SA is going backward instead of foward? Are you going to argue that Jozi has not come a long way since its bleakest days in the 90's? I've seen LA and Carlifornina and the rich areas might look nice, the rest of it looks like bleak concrete and nothing else, I would NOT want to live there.
Plus Califronia is also the most broke state in the US, in fact Gauteng and all ANC ruled areas are in a better financial state than the so-called 'developed/world-class' California.



Pics don't lie, check out the pics of ANC ruled cities, look at the northern cities capital cities.

All the heightened expectation of DA rule will come to nought. The party is going to make very marginal gains(+-3%) if any...

And I thought there was hope for you. All hope is lost now.

"...my poor virtual ears" (to quote annman)

Racial tendencies will take this country down the drain. I got kids whom i would like to see growing in a thriving country with a leader that have vision and focus. Thanks to the ANC that there's no single parks in Sharpville, Sebokeng, Bophelong and Boipatong.

Survey: Service delivery failure a myth2011-01-23 19:50

link: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Survey-Service-delivery-failure-a-myth-20110123


Adriaan Basson
Johannesburg - A new survey, which will be *released this week, challenges the “widely held” belief that the ANC government has failed to deliver basic services since coming into power in 1994.

Data published by the South *African Institute of Race Relations indicate the following:

» The number of households *living in brick houses has *increased from 5.7 million to 10.4 million - an 80% hike - between 1996 and 2009;

» The number of households *using electricity increased by 120% over the same period;

» At least 130% more households were using electricity to cook in 2009 than in 1996; and

» In the same period, the number of households with access to piped water rose by 71%.
According to the institute’s *deputy CEO, Frans Cronje, the *research seriously challenges the “refrain that is repeated week in and week out in South Africa - that service delivery has failed”.

The data compares living *standard levels over 13 years - *between 1996 and 2009.

ANC

“Without exception, the data demonstrate significant improvements across almost every living conditions indicator,” says *Cronje.

This is despite “widespread agreement” between the media, government, the ANC, opposition parties, business, trade unions, civil society and academia that service delivery has failed.

“Hence the government and the ANC’s promise that they will ‘fix failing service delivery’.”

Over the 13-year period under review, the number of households in South Africa increased from more than 9 million to 13.8 million – or by 52%.

“This was a significant new *burden on the state, in addition to inherited apartheid-era backlogs.

In part, the new burden resulted from a 22% decline in average household size, which few *observers anticipated or identified,” says Cronje.

In 1996, the average size of a household was 4.6 people and by 2009 that figure had fallen to 3.6 people.

According to Cronje, the country has seen “much improvement in the living standards of its *people, arguably now reaching their highest ever levels”.

Informal settlements

He has three explanations for a surge in service delivery protests, despite considerable progress having been made:

» Significant demands still need to be met, with just under 2 million households still living in informal settlements;

» Relative deprivation. Communities without services have *noticed the government’s ability to supply such services in neighbouring communities; and

» Service delivery will forever be “a moving target”. Government will never be able to meet the *demand for “continually improving standards of living”.



- City Press

Racial tendencies will take this country down the drain. I got kids whom i would like to see growing in a thriving country with a leader that have vision and focus. .

Pule my friend, you wont find that with me. When I arrive back home we can join our families and go and do something fun.

Nostra, you my friend, live in denial. You want too compare California with JHB.:lol:
Guys, the following pic is a park I as a kid use to play. Townsview, next too Oakdean in South JHB. This park was 25+ years ago clean, well maintained.
Today, well the pic is worth a million words. This whole area is one big shithole. All the way down to Rosettenville, Regents Park, South Hills...etc. All look like fucking war zones.
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b443/goliath01/DSC02774.jpg
Rubbish all over the place, pavements ripped, grass not cut, the list is endless.
Oh, and the best of all. I went too home affairs in Wynberg for my ID book.
They had their a sparkling brand new camera and equipment to take photos, but made me go sit under a tree outside and take pictures for my new ID book.
This of course having too pay R50, and my wife and friends from Europe asking me what on earth is this place. Typical ANC fuck up!

^^ What's your point really? I could show you a million other areas that are thriving. DA taking Joburg is not going to happen. Not in a million years...

Oh ignorance really is bliss :lol:

^^ What's your point really? I could show you a million other areas that are thriving. DA taking Joburg is not going to happen. Not in a million years...
I'm sure Verwoed said back in his day that Blacks will never run South Africa, not in a million years.

Don't say things like that, it makes one look narrow-minded and with a belief that the world doesn't evolve or ever change, whilst change is actually the only global constant.

^^ What's your point really? I could show you a million other areas that are thriving. DA taking Joburg is not going to happen. Not in a million years...

There is no hope for this fella.

Mmm - this argument is so black and white.

How about a little grey - as in - I think the ANC have done pretty well in some areas, and not so hot in others.
And whilst I support the DA, I dont think they are perfect.

I do want the DA and others to gain ground on the ANC to reduce that massive safety buffer they have.
It will only make them wake up and have to start performing in areas where they aren't.

The arguments on this thread appear to be all or nothing, 100% for one party and 0% for the other.
And that is never the truth.

I'm sure Verwoed said back in his day that Blacks will never run South Africa, not in a million years.

Don't say things like that, it makes one look narrow-minded and with a belief that the world doesn't evolve or ever change, whilst change is actually the only global constant.

Why should I watch what I say? I'm exercising my freediom of speech, whether I appear brain-damaged to you is beside the point. Even if you look at Verwoed's quote objectively it's obvious that he was just politicking: demographics, historical precedent were all pointing at imminent if not immediate political ascendancy by black ppl. I reiterate DA will not win in Joburg, there's nothing subversive about stating this plain fact...

You're actually equating what I said with Verwoed? Unbelievable, he was a ruthless facist who oppressed ppl, I on the other hand am stating a simple fact not because I'm saying the DA has some sort of genetic deficiency to lead in Joburg but because their ideology is a non-starter with most ANC voter, you guys need to learn how to deal with facts and to accept that DA has a fight on it's hands if it thinks it will just win votes based on what a bean-counter said (unqualfied audit)...

Ironic, coming from the swart gevaar accuser.

Unfortunately the two parties think different about the slogan "Service Delivery".
The ANC would jump very quickly to prove that what they have DELIVERED, ie: amount of houses, amount of households with electricity, water, sanitation. Yes all those have been achieved. But keeping it SERVICED is where they seriously lack.
While the DA might be slower in the delivery of those big numbers, they luckily tend to focus more on keeping the services delivered, which is much more important for many rural and poor communities' health, safety and humanity.

^^Mate the proof is in the pudding, if all these theories about ANC failure are true, surely we would be seeing massive anti-govt protests ala Tunisia? As in big enough to bring down the govt?

^^ What's your point really? I could show you a million other areas that are thriving. DA taking Joburg is not going to happen. Not in a million years...

Nostra, you still dont get it. I, like many others just want a good, clean, working and safe city to live. If its run by the ANC or DA is irrelevent. We want service, thats why we vote. A states function is too provide services for its citizens, end of story.
Havent their been protests over service delivery throughout the country?
Protests over crime? Protests over corruption?
Nostra dont be biased, what we all want in the end is the best for our beloved country. The problem is the ANC have forgotten what the word governing means, and mistake it with ruling.

^^Mate the proof is in the pudding, if all these theories about ANC failure are true, surely we would be seeing massive anti-govt protests ala Tunisia? As in big enough to bring down the govt?

Zille: Not all service delivery protests are about service

Taken from Helen Zille's weekly Newsletter SA Today.

Nov 21, 2010 1:42 PM | By Helen Zille
Anyone who follows the news will have read and heard about the recent series of ‘service delivery protests’ around the country, including in the Western Cape. Most casual observers believe these protests signal a groundswell of dissatisfaction with ‘service delivery’ – because that is how they have been reported in the press.


Sometimes this is true. But sometimes it isn’t. Each 'service delivery' protest takes place in a specific context, and is driven by different agendas.


Last week, three vehicles were burnt during a so-called ‘service delivery’ protest in Khayelitsha. Ironically, each of these vehicles was busy delivering a service to the community. One was delivering matric exam scripts to the marking centre. Another was fetching disabled people (for whom the City provides a special, subsidized transport system). A third was transporting children to a camp for abused children. The fourth vehicle escaped the blaze, but was stoned. It was an ambulance responding to an emergency call in the community.



It is beyond irony that services are destroyed in the name of service delivery protests.
In the television footage of these protests, further evidence of service delivery to the area was abundantly clear: tarred roads, storm water systems, overhead electricity wires, refuse bags awaiting collection (although their contents had been strewn across the street by protestors). And in Khayelitsha’s TR section (from which most of the protestors allegedly came) construction workers were being prevented from going onto site to build houses the people were supposedly demanding. In a nearby settlement, where an electricity sub-station was recently built, the local community is refusing to allow the electricity servitude to cross their land, thus preventing the City from supplying electricity to the surrounding shack settlements.
Service delivery is by no means perfect in Khayelitsha. But one thing is certain: there would be far more of it, if it were not for ‘service delivery protests’. Various forms of community conflict are the main reason that delivery is held up for years. That is one of the key reasons why it is far easier and much quicker to build a stadium than upgrade an informal settlement. The latter is wracked by community conflict, which usually turns violent, about who should benefit, who should move to make way for installation of underground services, who should get work on the project etc. etc. etc. Almost every issue results in conflict which takes months to resolve and adds hugely to the cost.



And every time there is a so-called ‘service delivery’ protest in an area, more resources are used up to prevent wanton injury and crime caused by people with other agendas. The massive redeployment of scarce police manpower and vehicles to riot scenes means that other areas across the City are deprived of their services.
But in the present situation there is an additional dimension. Local government elections are due in about six months, and hundreds of local activists are competing with each other to be the chosen candidate for their ward, or to secure a place on the list. Building a following and a public profile through protest action is certainly one way of promoting your candidacy.
In the ANC-dominated wards of Cape Town, there is yet another dimension at play because the ANC is determined to do whatever it takes to unseat the DA-led coalition in the City. Their agenda is to create the illusion of spontaneous community anger at lack of service delivery, to reinforce their lie that the DA does not care about the poor.
This contextual analysis of the reasons for some ‘service delivery’ protests is usually met with a combination of cynicism and derision by most journalists and commentators. They tend to believe that this is an excuse politicians use to disguise government failures. And we accept: there is always room for improvement, especially after a decade of massive urbanization in Cape Town which shows no sign of slowing down.



But this time, we do not need to make any deductions or inferences about the cause of the “service delivery” protests. Because, believe it or not, the ANC Youth League (ANCYL) called a press conference to announce their strategy publicly.



On November 12 they issued a press statement announcing a 14-day period of “non-stop serious protest” – while at the same time demanding that the Education Department compensate for the fact that students’ exam scripts had been burnt.
Calling on people to “know that their comfort depends on government,” the ANCYL said it “associated itself with the revolutionary ideas that are aimed in improving the living conditions of our people”.



This comes after repeated calls by ANCYL Khayelitsha leaders Andile Lili and Loyiso Nkohla, to make Cape Town “ungovernable”. And after Julius Malema’s call to drive the DA “cockroaches” out of the Western Cape with “Doom”.



Is anyone out there joining the dots?



Not long ago, a newspaper group ran a series of full-page advertisements with headlines such as “Why Standing for the Truth Means Never Standing Down”. The advert promised the reader that “we won’t rest in our relentless mission to always bring you the truth because ultimately, that’s what separates good journalism from bad”.
We agree. We also know it is difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to get to the full truth of any situation. But, in the context of “service delivery protests” appropriate coverage of the ANCYL’s press conference, where they voluntarily exposed their real agenda, would have been an important step in getting closer to the truth.
Far too many reporters base their articles on a pre-conceived template. Government is the villain, protestors are dependent victims. This template, unthinkingly super-imposed on every riot that happens in the name of 'service delivery' does more to disguise than reveal the truth.

The last thing I'll say to Nostra is if everything is so rosy, then why are guys like Pule so disillusioned with the ANC's 'performance' in Joburg? He probably knows more about Joburg than any of us here.

Anyway guys let's try and have an intelligible discussion about this. I personally think the DA have a good chance of taking Joburg, but that might just be my burning optimism. From what I've heard around the streets of Joburg, it seems as if (black) people are starting to realise all the corruption and lack of living standards has only one root cause.

Looking at the 2006 municipal elections, the DA had 27.01% of the vote in Joburg. I wonder how much they'll be able to gain on this

Real service delivery:

W Cape 'above average'
Mon, 24 Jan 2011 3:45

The proportion of households getting free basic services is "significantly higher" in the Western Cape than the national average, the SA Institute of Race Relations said on Monday.

Its latest annual South Africa Survey showed that in 2009, some 82 percent of Western Cape households received free basic water, 69 percent free basic sanitation and 52 percent solid waste services.

The corresponding national figures were 58, 33, and 23 percent.

The Free State came out top in the provision of free basic electricity — to 63 percent of households — against a national average of 35 percent.

Forty-six percent of Western Cape households received free basic electricity from their municipalities, the second highest number of all nine provinces.

KwaZulu-Natal households fared worst in terms of free electricity and solid waste at 15 and six percent of households respectively.

Mpumalanga registered lowest in the provision of free water (41 percent) and sanitation (13 percent).

The institute said free basic services were funded using local government revenue, and internal cross-subsidies from services tariffs.

In addition, the rollout of free basic services depended on the infrastructure available and on spending by municipalities.

The free services were provided to households defined by municipalities as poor.

"Taken together, the information indicates that Western Cape municipalities have sound revenue-collection mechanisms in place, relatively superior infrastructure, and the willingness or capability to spend money on the provision of essential services to indigent households," said institute researcher Kerwin Lebone.

http://news.iafrica.com/sa/700718.html

^^ Think it's been flogged like a dead horse, but some people do not seem to understand what is being said. Most people on these forums admit that NO political party is pure, is saintly or is beyond criticism. What you do see here though is a want to curb ANC power, not necessarily completely unseat it. Most people, even on the DA side of the spectrum, admit the ANC is better at certain things than the DA is. Mo's comment on the Gautrain is case-in-point. My comments on macro-economic policy are also so.

But, no matter where you are in the world, no matter what political party you are, absolute power always corrupts absolutely. This is exactly why the ANC are in the trouble they're in. They have too large a majority, so the accountability to the electorate has waned, because they feel a "right to rule," not a "privilege to govern."

Thus why even the previous ANC provincial government in the Western Cape was better than almost any other ANC controlled province. They always felt the threat of loosing power in the Western Cape and thus governed accordingly. Governed with a fear of the people, not people with a fear or disillusionment for the government.

Disillusionment in a democracy does not require Tunisia style protests. They require a different cross being made next election, that's all. Alas, we have political parties that still tell the people of SA to vote out and an irrational fear and not to vote responsibly.

The key to a healthy democracy is not a DA majority or an ANC majority, it is a governing majority that always has a chance of being taken from power. ALL politicians will slack off, become complacent and feel entitled, if they rule unfettered and without risk of "being fired." We see it in business, a monopoly breeds contempt for the consumer. Government is the same, political monopoly breeds contempt for the citizenry.

Thus, don't vote for the DA (or whomever), vote for a representative democracy where government realises WE ARE THEIR BOSS, not visa versa!

ANC losing support, survey finds
2011-01-25 11:43



Govt warns against election promises



Johannesburg - The ANC has lost 38 wards in local government elections over the last four years, the latest South Africa Survey has shown.

The Democratic Alliance has gained 24, the SA Institute of Race Relations (SAIRR) said on Tuesday. The survey is published annually by the institute.

"Between the last local government elections in 2006, and up until August 2010, the ANC managed to hold 306 ward seats, gain 17, and lose 55, giving it an overall loss of 38 seats.

"By contrast, the DA retained 61 seats, gained 29, and lost only five, resulting in an overall gain of 24 seats."

The institute analysed data on by-elections from the Independent Electoral Commission to arrive at its conclusion.

Local government elections

SAIRR researcher Marius Roodt predicted the ANC was likely to lose support in the upcoming local government elections.

"The ANC retained the majority of the seats that it held before, but the loss of 55 seats is significant.

"Using these figures as a basis for analysis it is likely that the DA will retain control of Cape Town. Of the other five metropolitan municipalities the ANC is most vulnerable in Nelson Mandela Bay, which includes Port Elizabeth. It could also lose significant support in Johannesburg, and Tshwane, of which Pretoria is part," he added.

He predicted the ANC would retain control of the overwhelming majority of municipalities in the country.

Independent candidates

The other big winners in local elections were independent candidates.

Over the period examined, independents held onto two seats, gained 18 and lost three - a net gain of 15 seats.

Many of the independents were Congress of the People members - a party now in the throes of a leadership battle which has seen two structures emerge.

The Inkatha Freedom Party lost 10 wards in total over the period. It held 47 seats, lost 15, and gained five.

Annman, I share your sentiments, they are so true. But in all honesty I fear for the future of this country.
If we take a good look its frightening too see the comments posted in this thread. "DA will never win, not in a million years" or my favourite by fat boy: "The ANC will rule until Jesus comes".
The sheer arrogance and stupidity of many who will not accept any other outcome but a total and overwhelming ANC victory.
They actually believe with all their heart that they will rule this country forever, and this will be tragic the day they lose.
I mean cant you see, we have comparisons being made between JHB/Gauteng with LA/California, a US state wich is only the 8th biggest economy in the world!

Annman, I share your sentiments, they are so true. But in all honesty I fear for the future of this country."
If we take a good look its frightening too see the comments posted in this thread. "DA will never win, not in a million years" or my favourite by fat boy: "The ANC will rule until Jesus comes".
The sheer arrogance and stupidity of many who will not accept any other outcome but a total and overwhelming ANC victory.
They actually believe with all their heart that they will rule this country forever, and this will be tragic the day they lose.
I mean cant you see, we have comparisons being made between JHB/Gauteng with LA/California, a US state wich is only the 8th biggest economy in the world!

Stop being so melodramatic, just because I say DA will never win in a million years does not mean I am ready to start hacking ppl with machetes if they actually won. I'm sorry mate it sounds like your fear stems from some baggage you might have. if you don't mind me asking do you have family that escaped from either Moz or Angola during their civil war?

RE: California, just because it's the 8th largest economy (which I seriously doubt) does not mean it's perfect or beyond criticism, it is the most debt-ridden state in the US. In fact there's a danger it might go bankrupt. do you want me to talk in reverential tones about such a place?

^^ Think it's been flogged like a dead horse, but some people do not seem to understand what is being said. Most people on these forums admit that NO political party is pure, is saintly or is beyond criticism. What you do see here though is a want to curb ANC power, not necessarily completely unseat it. Most people, even on the DA side of the spectrum, admit the ANC is better at certain things than the DA is. Mo's comment on the Gautrain is case-in-point. My comments on macro-economic policy are also so.

But, no matter where you are in the world, no matter what political party you are, absolute power always corrupts absolutely. This is exactly why the ANC are in the trouble they're in. They have too large a majority, so the accountability to the electorate has waned, because they feel a "right to rule," not a "privilege to govern."

Thus why even the previous ANC provincial government in the Western Cape was better than almost any other ANC controlled province. They always felt the threat of loosing power in the Western Cape and thus governed accordingly. Governed with a fear of the people, not people with a fear or disillusionment for the government.

Disillusionment in a democracy does not require Tunisia style protests. They require a different cross being made next election, that's all. Alas, we have political parties that still tell the people of SA to vote out and an irrational fear and not to vote responsibly.

The key to a healthy democracy is not a DA majority or an ANC majority, it is a governing majority that always has a chance of being taken from power. ALL politicians will slack off, become complacent and feel entitled, if they rule unfettered and without risk of "being fired." We see it in business, a monopoly breeds contempt for the consumer. Government is the same, political monopoly breeds contempt for the citizenry.

Thus, don't vote for the DA (or whomever), vote for a representative democracy where government realises WE ARE THEIR BOSS, not visa versa!

So all these shrill statements that have been made are as a result of people's love for democracy not necessarily cos they want their party to win?
For fear of sounding like i'm flogging a dead horse, I reiterate you really give ppl too much credit for thinking they believe in these ideals.

You cannot equate politics and the economy, if as you claim competition in politics is as beneficial like it's economic counterpart, please answer the following question:

Why did political competition in UK not prevent the crash in their banks? Or how one sector (banking) is the effective elite in their countries?
Why is American politics so acrimonious and (even more than ours) and policy making so gridlocked if political competition is such a panacea?

Western Democracy and its unthinking love of never-ending choice is not a panacea IMO.

Anyway you/DA better start step up your campaign because I'm spreading the ANC gospel far and wide.

I think you're doing more harm than good :hilarious It's so ridiculous it's funny.

^^I love the smell of complacency in the morning, just don't threaten secession and emmigration and all kinds of empty threats when we whip your ass (oops you might like that)...

Oh aren't you witty :|

So all these shrill statements that have been made are as a result of people's love for democracy not necessarily cos they want their party to win?
For fear of sounding like i'm flogging a dead horse, I reiterate you really give ppl too much credit for thinking they believe in these ideals.

You cannot equate politics and the economy, if as you claim competition in politics is as beneficial like it's economic counterpart, please answer the following question:

Why did political competition in UK not prevent the crash in their banks? Or how one sector (banking) is the effective elite in their countries?
Why is American politics so acrimonious and (even more than ours) and policy making so gridlocked if political competition is such a panacea?

Western Democracy and its unthinking love of never-ending choice is not a panacea IMO.

Anyway you/DA better start step up your campaign because I'm spreading the ANC gospel far and wide.

eesh so much to learn. As for spreading the gospel. Which one is that? Corruption? Tenderpreneurs? Poor service delivery?

So you're going to preach that they should vote for the ANC because the DA has provided better services, built houses of a higher quality and sooner, had unqualified audits, removed corruption where possible, ....is that what you're going to preach.


Its scary that you're so blinded that you can't even acknowledged a blatant well-documented fact that the DA have been better for ALL people in Cape Town and the Western Cape.

How many more Auditor General reports until your even recognize this fact? You don't have to love or vote DA, but this is fact, not imagined.

You're simply pro-ANC, you can't give a fuck about what's actually better for people, don't even try to claim that.

^^I love the smell of complacency in the morning, just don't threaten secession and emmigration and all kinds of empty threats when we whip your ass (oops you might like that)...

Well, I have to say, since reading all your comments, my fellow South African, have a Republic of the Western Cape doesnt sount too bad.

I have one question for you. Do you consider all South African as Africans? That is including the whites, coloureds and indians?

Well, I have to say, since reading all your comments, my fellow South African, have a Republic of the Western Cape doesnt sount too bad.

I have one question for you. Do you consider all South African as Africans? That is including the whites, coloureds and indians?

The only South Africans are ones that vote ANC, according to Nostra, :lol:

I hereby rename Nostra the Malema of SSC (he'll probably be honoured)

Stop being so melodramatic, just because I say DA will never win in a million years does not mean I am ready to start hacking ppl with machetes if they actually won. I'm sorry mate it sounds like your fear stems from some baggage you might have. if you don't mind me asking do you have family that escaped from either Moz or Angola during their civil war?

RE: California, just because it's the 8th largest economy (which I seriously doubt) does not mean it's perfect or beyond criticism, it is the most debt-ridden state in the US. In fact there's a danger it might go bankrupt. do you want me to talk in reverential tones about such a place?

Oh they were in Angola alright, pumping the commie bastards back too Luanda! Thank all those brave men that put their lives on the line so that all SAns today dont have a fucking communist flag.
That fat fuck called Julius has more than once threatened to destabilize the WC or SA when Zuma was on trial, challenges court orders... anyway a twat.
Oh, and dont worry about the machete thing, I took it with a pinch of salt, because if you did try anything of that sort I would personally put your head so deep up your arse, you wouldnt know the difference between shit and French fries.

I hereby rename Nostra the Malema of SSC (he'll probably be honoured)

Nostra Malema
OR
Julius Nostra
OR
Malemanostra
OR
Nostralema
:lol:

^^ Guys on all sides, calm it down and please ease up on the ad hominem attacks. We do have some people on here who do not like to debate intellectually and would rather debate with a venom of person bias. Just ignore such individuals and engage those who pose an debate based on factual evidence and a sanely backed ideology.

Oh they were in Angola alright, pumping the commie bastards back too Luanda! Thank all those brave men that put their lives on the line so that all SAns today dont have a fucking communist flag.
That fat fuck called Julius has more than once threatened to destabilize the WC or SA when Zuma was on trial, challenges court orders... anyway a twat.
Oh, and dont worry about the machete thing, I took it with a pinch of salt, because if you did try anything of that sort I would personally put your head so deep up your arse, you wouldnt know the difference between shit and French fries.

The war was to putting an end to the evils of white rule, it was NOT about communism.

The only South Africans are ones that vote ANC, according to Nostra, :lol:

I hereby rename Nostra the Malema of SSC (he'll probably be honoured)

Ad hominem. nice way to close down the debate. I'll think of some nice names to call you tommorrow, it's been a long day. :)

Oh they were in Angola alright, pumping the commie bastards back too Luanda! Thank all those brave men that put their lives on the line so that all SAns today dont have a fucking communist flag.
That fat fuck called Julius has more than once threatened to destabilize the WC or SA when Zuma was on trial, challenges court orders... anyway a twat.
Oh, and dont worry about the machete thing, I took it with a pinch of salt, because if you did try anything of that sort I would personally put your head so deep up your arse, you wouldnt know the difference between shit and French fries.

I knew it! It really explains a lot about your thinking, any way ease up on the threats mate, I'm really not interested in attacking anyone...

Well, I have to say, since reading all your comments, my fellow South African, have a Republic of the Western Cape doesnt sount too bad.

I have one question for you. Do you consider all South African as Africans? That is including the whites, coloureds and indians?

Yes, have I said anything that indicates otherwise? Or is supporting ANC some sort of crime? Please don't use me as an excuse for your secessionist fantasies.

^^ Guys on all sides, calm it down and please ease up on the ad hominem attacks. We do have some people on here who do not like to debate intellectually and would rather debate with a venom of person bias. Just ignore such individuals and engage those who pose an debate based on factual evidence and a sanely backed ideology.

Thanks for that. Funny thing is that when I see some of the posts here it strengthens my resolve to keep voting ANC because it makes me see what kind of reactionaries the DA still has as supporters.

I am willing to conceded that H.Zille is a liberal in the best sense of the word and DA really means well BUT when I see some of the posts here I'm convinced that many of her supportes are only liberals in name, "wolves in sheep's clothing."

Peace!

Thanks for that. Funny thing is that when I see some of the posts here it strengthens my resolve to keep voting ANC because it makes me see what kind of reactionaries the DA still has as supporters.

I am willing to conceded that H.Zille is a liberal in the best sense of the word and DA really means well BUT when I see some of the posts here I'm convinced that many of her supportes are only liberals in name, "wolves in sheep's clothing."

Peace!

And you are not reactionary? Swart gevaar?

As I've said below you can't give a fuck about whats best for people. You FAIL yet again to acknowledge the well known and documented fact that the DA are best at service delivery.

Nobody here has ever demanded you support the DA, but you're so blinded by your pro-ANC delusions that you can't accept a basic fact.

I knew it! It really explains a lot about your thinking, any way ease up on the threats mate, I'm really not interested in attacking anyone...

Nostra, this will be my last post on this matter. I hold no grudge against you, and therefor apoligize for the more heated response.
Some of your comments on this thread and others have led to a more aggressive approach from the majority of the forumers, not only me, due too your childish remarks.
As for the topic at hand, we need a strong opposition to counter any governing party. Thats democracy at its best. Wether the ANC or the DA behind the helm, all parties are corruptible, and as so, we need to keep them in check.
Their are no wolves here, we just want the best for all SAns. ALL!
Vote for the party that serves you best, and make peace with your decision.
Ill vote for the DA because I think they provide better service for ALL SAns!

Thanks for that. Funny thing is that when I see some of the posts here it strengthens my resolve to keep voting ANC because it makes me see what kind of reactionaries the DA still has as supporters.

I am willing to conceded that H.Zille is a liberal in the best sense of the word and DA really means well BUT when I see some of the posts here I'm convinced that many of her supportes are only liberals in name, "wolves in sheep's clothing."

Peace!

Nobody is interested if you vote DA or not. You can vote ANC "till Jesus comes" but if the majority of people in Joburg are fed up the ANC WILL be ousted. And I personally can't wait for the day that it will (not maybe) happen :)

Numsa: SAIRR hostile towards ANC
2011-01-26 22:00


Johannesburg - A survey claiming that the ANC was losing support in the country was a clear sign that the SA Institute of Race Relations (SAIRR) had taken a hostile stance against the political party in favour of the Democratic Alliance.

This is according to a National Union of Metalworkers of SA (Numsa) in a statement on Wednesday.

"The survey is detached from electoral and political realities, as evidenced by recent victories in by-elections by the ANC in most parts of the country," Numsa spokesperson Irvin Jim said.

"The question that SAIRR should answer publicly is for whose class interests and agenda are these surveys being done?," Jim said.

A survey by the SAIRR on Tuesday showed that the ANC had lost 38 wards in local government elections over the last four years, compared to the DA's loss of 5 wards.

Jim called the survey claims "reactionary", saying that SAIRR should declare itself as an intellectual think-tank of the DA.

"Our people know the gains that they have made in their respective municipalities or localities under the control of the ANC," he said.

"As Numsa we are proud of the sterling work done by the ANC at various municipalities."

Jim said their shopstewards and members would be working tirelessly to secure an overwhelming ANC victory in the upcoming local government elections in May

^^ :lol:

How can they be biased, if they're stating something that is public in the IEC's voter records? If you state a fact, you're DA? So then, if you bury your head in the sand and state a lie, then you're a what...???

SAIRR was also somewhat "wrong" is saying it was a survey, because what they announced was simply a compilation of statistics available from the IEC's by-elections process.

Com'on NUMSA, your brain seems NUMb.

It is being addressed through unprecedented investment in infrastructure, see Gautrain, BRT, ORTIA, Highways. most other ANC cities are thriving economically, see PLK, Mbombela (Nel), BLM, PMB, the areas of weakness are the previously dirt-poor rural ghettoes of Areas Act...

DA is gonna see dust in Jozi..


In relation to your argument... PMB is part of KZN btw


The proportion of households getting free basic services was “significantly higher” in the Western Cape than the national average, the SA Institute of Race Relations said today.

Its latest annual South Africa Survey showed that in 2009, some 82% of Western Cape households received free basic water, 69% free basic sanitation and 52% solid waste services.

The corresponding national figures were 58%, 33%, and 23%.

KwaZulu-Natal households fared worst in terms of free electricity and solid waste at 15% and six% of households respectively.

Mpumalanga registered lowest in the provision of free water (41%) and sanitation (13%).

The institute said free basic services were funded using local government revenue, and internal cross-subsidies from services tariffs.




The DA will not take JHB, but its popularity/ voters confidence will increase

http://www.businessday.co.za/images/NewSite/index_17.png


Billing crisis could result in qualified audit for Joburg
Auditor-general rejects City Power and Joburg Water’s financial statements, questioning their revenue figures because of billing problems.

CHANTELLE BENJAMIN and SARAH HUDLESTON
Published: 2011/01/28 06:19:04 AM


JOHANNESBURG’s billing chaos could result in the city receiving a qualified audit this year.

It emerged at a city council meeting yesterday that auditor-general Terence Nombembe had rejected City Power and Joburg Water’s financial statements, questioning their revenue figures because of billing problems.

The city has a budget of R28,3bn , or R5,3bn more than Cape Town, SA’s next wealthiest city. A qualified audit would affect the city’s credit rating.

Johannesburg’s financial statements for the financial year to June 20 2010 were submitted to the auditor-general by September 30 and the audit was due for completion by December. But Mr Nombembe had notified Johannesburg mayor Amos Masondo that he needed further assurances on revenue figures,

A report from Mr Masondo’s office, released yesterday, read: "The reason for the delay (in the audit) has been the audit of the city’s revenue.

"During the 2009-10 financial year, the city migrated from the Venus system previously used for billing and revenue management, to the new revenue and customer relations management system on SAP Phakama. While management has confidence in the reliability of the data submitted for auditing purposes, the auditor-general seeks assurance on the completeness of the revenue and therefore further auditing procedures are to be undertaken."

Mr Nombembe’s office did not respond to queries from Business Day yesterday.

Democratic Alliance (DA) councillor John Mendelsohn, who sits on the city’s finance committee, said yesterday that a qualified audit would be disastrous for the city.

"After just two years of unqualified (clean) audits, a qualified audit from the auditor- general would impact negatively. The city is heavily borrowed, with long-term borrowing of R15bn, and this would affect its credit rating and push up repayments on the loans."

During debate on the finalisation of the audit yesterday , DA councillor Patrick Atkinson said Mr Masondo and Parks Tau, the finance member of the mayoral committee, were living in a parallel universe in which they did not deal with the reality of the billing crisis.

"Mr Masondo and Mr Tau, why don’t you try and phone the call centre or stand for days trying to sort out a bill that is clearly wrong?" he asked. He cited the case of a Craighall Park pensioner whose water had been cut off because she would not pay an erroneous bill of R106000. He said Mr Tau was "heartless".

Mayoral committee member Christine Walters responded that Mr Tau had "impeccable struggle DNA" and was a caring husband and father. She said the council had inherited a system that was a legacy of apartheid.

Project Phakama was installed in August last year.

Mr Mendelsohn proposed that Mr Masondo and Mr Tau resign — after apologising to all affected by the billing crisis.

In his reply Mr Masondo said the way that Mr Atkinson had "dared" to speak did not reflect the quality of what the council had so far achieved with Phakama, "When you think that 1-million accounts have been migrated to the new system and that in Johannesburg 10000 properties change hands each month, it is important to realise that very few organisations can handle services of this complexity."

What do impeccable struggle credentials and being a caring husband and father have to do with running the finance department of a large metropolitan city?

The mind boggles.

What do impeccable struggle credentials and being a caring husband and father have to do with running the finance department of a large metropolitan city?


It's makes you an outstanding ANC comrade! :nuts: That's the most important thing.

They also inherited the billing system from Apartheid... damn... they are slow. Computer billing systems need to be upgraded once every 5 years... in other words, you're actually saying your council has done nothing since 1994! You running your billing off Apartheid computers, nice monochrome screens running DOS! :lol:

More excuses please...

I wasn't going to comment on the "legacy of Apartheid" excuse being bandied about.... but yeah, ever so slightly irritating now.

http://www.businessday.co.za/images/NewSite/index_17.png

ANC finds culprit in Joburg’s billing fiasco — the DA

ANC suspects officials in the City of Johannesburg aligned to the opposition of sabotaging the city’s billing system

SIBONGAKONKE SHOBA
Published: 2011/02/04 06:33:49 AM

THE African National Congress (ANC) has found a new scapegoat for Johannesburg’s municipal billing crisis — it now suspects officials in the City of Johannesburg aligned to the opposition of sabotaging the city’s billing system.

The billing problem is becoming a headache for the ANC as it fears voters may use it as a reason to ditch the party in this year’s local government elections. Yesterday, the ANC met its 14 Gauteng mayors and senior municipal officials to try to find solutions to the problem.

An ANC leader said the party had been informed at the meeting that the municipality was investigating senior officials in the customer care and revenue collection divisions who are suspected of being behind the "sabotage".

"Steps will be taken and these officials will soon be charged," the leader said.

At a news conference yesterday, ANC provincial secretary David Makhura and Johannesburg mayor Amos Masondo hinted that they suspected sabotage, but refused to divulge more details.

"We also think that in Johannesburg there is a great deal of negligence and flaws," Mr Makhura said. "At this stage we do not want to suspect deliberate sabotage."

Mr Masondo said he would not discuss the "sabotage" issue in an irresponsible manner. "If there are individuals who have failed the systems … we must all be held responsible," he said .

The Democratic Alliance’s leader in Johannesburg, Vasco da Gama, said the ANC’s suspicions were "rubbish". "There is nobody in the department who is aligned to the DA. They are trying to cover up. There is something wrong with their system and they cannot blame anybody for that."

The DA blames the new, R580m Project Phakama computerised billing system for thousands of residents receiving hugely inflated bills and having their services cut off.

Mr Makhura said there were "challenges" with the system when it was first introduced, but those had been resolved. "We know that the problem is not the system."

While the city was working on fixing the problem, it would continue disconnecting the electricity and water of residents suspected of not paying the municipality.

shobas@bdfm.co.za

^^ I see the DA-aligned liberal media is already cranking up its propaganda. They and their handlers must get ready to eat humble pie. We're gonna trounce them bad come election time...

Viva mis-information Viva!! :nuts:

^^ Viva incompetence VIVA!

^^Well brace yourself, you gonna lose and it's gonna hurt...

First they blame Apartheid for the billing fiasco, now they blame it on a DA conspiracy. Can't wait to see what's to blame next...

I know, we haven't seen the "Forces of Darkness" since before the national election in 2009, I'd love to see it fingered again...

Damn satanic forces, always messing with the ANC. Dark forces, along with the DA, are counter-revolutionary.

^^Mis-information, propaganda, deliberately fudging facts, mis-reporting, quoting out of context. These are the hallmarks of DA-aligned media reporting, don't worry though we see straight through them. From their shrill news reports, one can tell they're know they're staring defeat in the face. Bunch of tossers...

^^Well brace yourself, you gonna lose and it's gonna hurt...

Fully braced and ready to go

^^Mis-information, propaganda, deliberately fudging facts, mis-reporting, quoting out of context. These are the hallmarks of DA-aligned media reporting, don't worry though we see straight through them. From their shrill news reports, one can tell they're know they're staring defeat in the face. Bunch of tossers...

Let me guess, you're 100% behind the media tribunal fiasco

^^ The Media... also beholden to the Forces of Darkness. :lol:

All media are all paid by the DA, didn't anyone know that. It's a conspiracy. The DA pays off the Mail & Guardian, eNEWS, Independent Newspapers, Media24, Times Media, the whole lot! Mubarak and ANC have something in common.

Siege mentality... just like the Apartheid Nats.

Illuminati-of-politics... RUN!!!

Naspers -Owned by Koos Bekker (former NATS running boy)
Independent - owned by some Irish guy (Afropessimist of note, basically sucking all the profits from SA to pay off debt in Ireland)
Avusa - part black-owned but editorial team is the biggest bunch of liberal clown you ever seen
New Age - Now that paper at least tries to report without being so blatantly partisan

Bunch of Afro-pessimistic, DA mouthpieces, I remember they were whooping like clowns that CPT got an unqualified audit report, yet they didn't disclose that in JHB 'we've been having it'

^^ The Media... also beholden to the Forces of Darkness. :lol:

All media are all paid by the DA, didn't anyone know that. It's a conspiracy. The DA pays off the Mail & Guardian, eNEWS, Independent Newspapers, Media24, Times Media, the whole lot! Mubarak and ANC have something in common.

Siege mentality... just like the Apartheid Nats.

Illuminati-of-politics... RUN!!!

Nah they too dumb to be illuminati, CNN, BBC is illuminati, our guys are just running dogs of the big boys.

Remember how our own media wass telling us that SWC 2010 will be a failure because of low turnout/ violence, etc...?

Fair-weather patriots that's what they are, when the going is good they'll be shouting at the top of their lungs how proud of SA they are, what proud African they are. Soon as they hit a pothole, then you see their true colours...

Let me guess, you're 100% behind the media tribunal fiasco

nah, my philosophy is that you must give a dog a long rope and watch it hang itself.

Just one last rant about our spineless media:

They were raising hell about the media tribunal and media freedom in SA, then the Wikileaks scandal broke and the US (their paragon of democracy) started threatening Assange and harrassing him, our media was tjoepstil about media freedoms and such. Why? Why didn't they come to the defence of one of the bravest men in the media? Why no railing against hypocricy of US in trying to clamp down on freedom of expression?

Or they reserve their venom for ANC?

I might not be a 100% fan of DA but at least they do their work...ask the ANC deployees in MidVaal municipality...Limpopo guys who DA means business while ANC fucks blacks the most...Distribution of work in Limpopo is now only offered to Malema aligned comrades who fails to deliver...thanks to Malema that my friend's brother's business is being sidelined...

^^Mis-information, propaganda, deliberately fudging facts, mis-reporting, quoting out of context. These are the hallmarks of DA-aligned media reporting, don't worry though we see straight through them. From their shrill news reports, one can tell they're know they're staring defeat in the face. Bunch of tossers...

Eesh.

And you still will not acknowledge the fact that the DA run CT much better than the ANC ever had.

You've time and time again failed to produce anything relevant apart from blaming media.

As before, I don't feel sorry for you, but more so for your kids, who will probably be indoctrinated with your ignorance, and basic lack of understanding of service delivery.

As Pule said below, you don't care whats best for you or your kids or relative or friends, you're just plain ANC obsessed, regardless of the consequences.

Annman, they couldn't use the "forces of darkness" argument this time because technically, by cutting off residents' lights due to billing issues, they ARE those very forces of darkness :lol:

^^ That's what's sad to me Pule. Everyday people, who also suffered under the old regime, suffering again because the ruling party cares about friends and comrades with influence, and not about the man in the street, even those who are of colour.

But, I've given up arguing and rather just answer with sarcasm and humor, because someone who is so blindly loyal to believe everything they're promised or told is like someone who belongs to a cult... they're lost because their method of cognitive reasoning has been lost due to the infiltration of propaganda into their minds, infiltration of political scaremongering into their psyche. They live in a self-imposed shell of siege and persecution. There's always a conspiracy in these people's minds, because only a conspiracy can refute the plain facts they're unable to logically argue against.

I like your view that you're not 100% for the DA. I like it when people keep reality in view, that NO political party is pure, all saintly and is completely benign. Voting is the choice between a lesser of the evils. Politics is dirty...

But bottom line... a party with an unchecked hegemony on power, ANY party, is dangerous.
Two rules of stable democracy: Absolute power corrupts absolutely. When you go too far left, nothing's right; you go too far right, there's nothing left!

Eesh.

And you still will not acknowledge the fact that the DA run CT much better than the ANC ever had.

You've time and time again failed to produce anything relevant apart from blaming media.

As before, I don't feel sorry for you, but more so for your kids, who will probably be indoctrinated with your ignorance, and basic lack of understanding of service delivery.

As Pule said below, you don't care whats best for you or your kids or relative or friends, you're just plain ANC obsessed, regardless of the consequences.

Agg please now you know what's good for me? You sound like one of those patronising DA politicians.

Check more incompetence by the ANC, seriously though I bet the DA would've said building varsities in the townships is a waste of money or would have come with some excuse or another...

New R450 million Soweto UJ campus opened Feb 4, 2011 3:17 PM | By Sapa

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The University of Johannesburg's (UJ) Soweto campus, revamped for R450 million, was opened by Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe on Friday.

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Soweto Square
Photograph by: http://www.uj.ac.za/
He was ushered into the campus' hall by an academic procession including UJ chancellor and businesswoman Wendy Luhabe and Science and Technology Minister Naledi Pandor, who approved the project during her tenure as education minister in 2008.

The group of academics and other dignitaries, among them ANC MP Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and poet Don Mattera, were welcomed by groups of singing and dancing UJ student residence groups.

Motlanthe unveiled a plaque dedicated to the institution's future, alongside UJ vice chancellor professor Ihron Rensburg and UJ council chairman professor Roy Marcus.

The Soweto campus revamp included facility improvements, utility upgrades and installation of high-quality information technology.

Student residences named after anti-apartheid icons such as Hector Pieterson, lecture halls, a student centre, law and health clinics, computer laboratories and sport amenities were also built.

Construction contracts worth about R37 million were awarded to local community businesses during the project.

Motlanthe described the former Vista campus, along Chris Hani Road opposite Orlando's Power Park, as "a sign of the times".

"I believe it will attract students from all over South Africa and the world."

He commended the campus on how far it had come since the merger of universities in 2005, which included Rand Afrikaans University, Technikon Witwatersrand and the Soweto institution historically known as Vista University.

"Today is a red letter day because it is a day heralding increased efforts to tackle challenges of under-development in our uneven socio-economic landscape," Motlanthe said.

"This state of affairs is a far cry from the dubious intentions of the previous order that prompted the establishment of Vista University in the first place."

He said apartheid had sought to produce "second rate academic institutions" in keeping with the designated social position of blacks.

"Indeed, this institution has come a long way since its humble origins as Vista University, established in the context of the so-called separate development," said Motlanthe.

Rensburg said: "The Soweto campus reaffirms our social contract with the people of Soweto, and we are excited to celebrate this rising example of our commitment to higher education.

"We are confident that this investment will consolidate UJ's position in Soweto, and South Africa as a whole, and yield a premier and unique campus with its own distinctive brand and identity."

Rensburg noted the revamped campus was located at the foot of a hill, where Reverend Enoch Sontonga wrote the South African national anthem in 1897.

"As you walk around the revamped campus, you will notice that various buildings have already been named after stalwarts of the struggle for freedom, democracy, equality and human dignity.

"We remember people such as Antony Mzwakhe Lembede, Enoch Sontonga, Robert Sobukwe, Bram Fischer, Ellen Kuzwayo, Nthato Motlana, Tsietsi Mashinini, Hector Pieterson and TW Kambule," Rensburg said.

During the ceremony first year students were welcomed and residence awards presented for outstanding academic performance.

Earlier UJ Student Representative Council members disrupted the ceremony because of their unhappiness about the person chosen to speak on their behalf during the proceedings.

The small group of students continued disrupting speaker after speaker by singing struggle songs and refused to be called to order by their leaders -- to the visible irritation of some academics and students, who called for their removal.

The group stopped singing when Rensburg threatened to have them thrown out.

Agg please now you know what's good for me? You sound like one of those patronising DA politicians.

On the other hand, you're so dumb, you and unfortunately those related to you will probably get exactly what you deserve.

On your issue of building universities...WOW! Welldone.

Who cancelled the Mitchell's Plain Hospital in the Western Cape due to "lack of funds" only for the DA to take over and go ahead with BOTH the Khayelitsha and Mitchells Plain Hospitals.

Why is service delivery in the Western Cape at an all time high? Facts. Facts. Facts.

Once again you bring up the DA...I'd vote ANC if they were better for Cape Town, or if they knew how to provide services. The party is irrelevant, or in your case, you're so blinded, its all you see.

For the 900th time I'm not against the ANC, but the the DA are and have done better. Fact.

No article of yours will change the track record of the DA over the last 4 years, the good and the bad.

Agg please now you know what's good for me? You sound like one of those patronising DA politicians.

On second thought I think you're one of those people who vote ANC because they promise you free washing machines and hair-dryers and stoves. hahaha.

Eesh...I vote for you because you promise me a free stove and cellphone.

DA calls for resignations over billing
2011-02-04 20:43

Johannesburg - The Democratric Alliance caucus leader in the city of Johannesburg, Vasco da Gama, and DA finance spokesperson councillor Patrick Atkinson said in a joint statement that Johannesburg mayor Amos Masondo and committee member for finance councillor Parks Tau should resign immediately for trying to cover up the city's billing crisis.

They said: "Masondo and Tau have presided over what is fast becoming one of the most serious municipal crises facing the people of Johannesburg.

"Following the shocking revelations, Masondo and...Tau should resign immediately."

The DA accused Masondo and Tau for "not being candid" with council or councillors regarding the full extent of the problems faced by the city and said their "misplaced arrogance and "cool indifference" added to the plight of Johannesburg residents.

"They have repeatedly attempted to cover up the severity of the problem, setting deadlines for the resolution of this issue and missing these time and again."

Atkinson said that January ranked as possibly one of the most unfortunate months for the city's finances.

The DA had also apparently become aware of the billing saga last year, and had made efforts to meet Tau, but failed, he said.

"The DA introduced an urgency motion at the last council meeting of 2010. This was refused by the ANC administration as being not sufficiently urgent.

"The council subsequently disconnected over 40 000 households, many on the basis of incorrect billing. Many ratepayers have received grossly inflated bills and the city has demanded payment under threat of disconnection. This is pure extortion.

"Johannesburg has seen a significant slippage in its credit rating under the stewardship of Masondo and Tau. Another year of this toxic duo could have a fatal effect on the city."

Liquidation

The Mail & Guardian reported on Friday that Johannesburg's billing problem started five years ago, when a R208m tender to upgrade the system was awarded to "an inexperienced company whose directors have a record of high-level involvement with local and national government links and ANC politicians".

The newspaper reported that the city awarded the contract to Masana Technologies.

The contract price expanded to R496m and when the country cancelled it in September 2009, with R156m of the work unfinished, Masana went into liquidation.

Subcontractors, Dimension Date and IBM had to take over. This cost the city a further R306m, the report said, but the city has denied this, stating that it cost R170m more.
Masondo said at a media conference held by the Gauteng provincial ANC on Thursday that the billing problem could take up to two years to sort out.

He said that the city would continue cutting off services to those who did not pay their electricity bills, but would not "wrongfully" cut power.

Masondo said "significant progress" had been made in dealing with the situation.

He earlier drew widespread criticism for saying that the problem did not constitute a crisis.

Ok wait a minute its not the ANC's fault that Johannesburg is literally falling apart and that their billing systems are in total hell? It might technically not be the ANC's fault but they have to take blame for appointments and mismanagement.

Having spent time in all 3 of our main cities the last few days it brought to the fore the sorry state that Joburg is in.

Oh they were in Angola alright, pumping the commie bastards back too Luanda! Thank all those brave men that put their lives on the line so that all SAns today dont have a fucking communist flag.


this is the most disturbing and disgusting comment I've seen on these forums
wow

Nostra man, there's no use arguing with these people, their bias and prejudice is ingrained in their culture.
Even their moderator finds it appropriate to hurl insults at you and your family

Well Nostra you're clearly a man of big words... Panacea this, panacea that.... but clearly not a man of fact. Fact#1 the Western Cape has the highest living standard in the country (disposable per capita income), Gauteng has a bigger economy, but about quadruple the population. KZN is by no means the 2nd biggest ( not by a long stretch) with the Western Cape having highly developed service based industries, i.e banking, insurance, IT and the most entrepreneurs in the country. Fact#2 California is one of the top 10 economies(besides the rest of the US) on the planet, it fluctuates between the 6th and 8th spot. Fact#3 South Africa is a white invention from 1910. Never used to be one country. So not quite sure what your hang up is about the children of the Khoi ruling the west, as they have done for thousands if not millions of years!

TOP SECRET MEMO FROM: JAMES LORIMER MP, TO: DA PARTY HIERARCHY

Feb 4, 2011 12:00 PM | By JAMES LORIMER MP DA

http://www.timeslive.co.za/multimedia/dynamic/01664/746560_657277_1664098b.jpg
ACCOUNTABILITY: ANC provincial secretary David Makhura and Johannesburg Mayor Amos Masondo at yesterday's press conference. Masondo failed to give an update on the billing chaos while Makhura said the ANC was concerned about 'inefficiency' Picture: ELIZABETH SEJAKE

It was with a mixture of joy and surprise that I learned from Business Day this morning that, according to the ANC, DA secret agents, posing as municipal employees, have all along been responsible for the crisis in Johannesburg municipal billing.

Firstly, my congratulations on what has been a flawless undercover operation. It is impossible to imagine that our secret agents could have carried out this devastating plan to any better effect. The damage to both the billing system and to the credibility of South Africa’s economic powerhouse has been extreme. I am thrilled that our secret operations have such amazing capabilities, and all developed under the noses of public representatives in the DA!

Many other events now become clear. Hitherto it has been impossible to imagine the extent of the political stupidity of the ANC arising out of genuine policies or mistakes. There are many examples but those freshest in my mind are, the appointment of Jimmy Manyi as head of government communications; the proposal to lose millions of jobs through the banning of labour brokers; the flouting of the constitution via the media tribunal and the Protection of Information Act; the New Growth Path and the sale of our foreign policy to China.

Lastly, just one request: Since my wife found out that it was DA agents who were behind the recent incorrect cutting of our power, I’ve had no end of trouble from her. Can you please tell our agents working undercover in the Johannesburg billing department that they must, under no circumstances, cut power to my household again.

NOTE TO JULIUS AND FRIENDS: The above is sarcasm or satire. For those of you with less than stellar academic careers that means it is not true

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article892857.ece/TOP-SECRET-MEMO-FROM--JAMES-LORIMER-MP-TO--DA-PARTY-HIERARCHY

And I must say it truly depresses me that there are still idiots like Nostra in SA who support the ANC *vomit*

A tale of two cities

The Radisson Blu hotel in Granger Bay near the V&A Waterfront in Cape Town arguably enjoys one of the finest locations of any hotel in that elegant city. It sits right next to the ocean at the entrance to the harbour but is far enough from the bustle of the V&A Waterfront development to offer peace and quiet at night. The staff are friendly and efficient, the rooms are immaculately clean and the common areas of the hotel just ooze opulence. The main bar and terrace are ideally positioned to catch the setting of the sun and in the morning you can sit on that same terrace and watch dolphins frolicking in the surf while you ponder what to eat next from the extensive breakfast offering.

Last week was one of those blissful weeks that make life on the southern tip worth living. I had to fly to Cape Town for the launch of the new Porsche Cayenne (more of that later this week). Normally these are fly in and fly out in one day affairs but I hadn’t been to Cape Town for two and a half years so I asked Porsche to fly me in early and out late to give me time to enjoy the mother city. A good friend suggested the Radisson Blu which is why I found myself in one of their Business Class suites for three nights with the most superb view of the sunrise from my private balcony. A trip to Kirstenbosch to scatter the ashes of my late parents among the cycads and a leisurely drive along the coastline plus several very enjoyable dinners with friends filled the rest of the time.

What strikes one immediately about Cape Town after such a long absence are the changes that have occurred over the past couple of years. Flying down from Johannesburg it is impossible not to contrast the two cities; the one obviously falling apart and the other well run and efficient. There’s little to choose between our respective airports because both are magnificent structures which stand head and shoulders above most other airports in the world that I have passed through. It’s only when you leave the airport and drive towards Cape Town that you begin to notice the difference. The grass verges next to the motorways look tidy, there are no pot holes in the roads, the robots work, the city itself looks cleaner and well cared for and the overall impression is that of a well run municipality as opposed to the atrocious mess that Mayor Amos Masondo has made of Johannesburg. The ANC don’t much like this of course because the city of Cape Town is run by their political opponents, the DA. The harsh reality is that the DA have shown the ANC how a city should be run and the likes of Tony Yengeni and Julius Malema benefit from that as they party away at places like The Grand and ZAR. But that doesn’t alter the fact that they would prefer the ANC to be allowed to bugger the place up and turn it into another Johannesburg.

Cape Town has become such a jewel of a tourist destination that allowing anyone to deliberately destroy that fragile reputation is unthinkable. However, watching Egypt’s tourism industry go up in a puff of smoke last week makes one realise that things can easily change within a very short time. Egyptians are on the streets demonstrating against high food prices, unemployment, corrupt government and poor prospects and all those complaints apply equally to the many South Africans who live in shacks near the exquisitely rebuilt Cape Town airport. Many of the political leaders from the party they elected to power prefer to swan around in luxury cars, drink expensive whisky and hang out in fashionable clubs and restaurants. Nothing wrong with that if you can explain where you made your money and how such behaviour fits in with your declared interest of bringing a better life to the poor. Perhaps a solution would be to move the Cape Town shack dwellers en masse to Johannesburg. If they go on the rampage and start ripping up the roads up here nobody will really notice the difference.

http://www.richmark.co.za/Images/newstime_logo.jpg

How sad and true ^^

Nostra man, there's no use arguing with these people, their bias and prejudice is ingrained in their culture.
Even their moderator finds it appropriate to hurl insults at you and your family

In what way have i done this?

Yes there are differences between CT and JHB, but I can't say that I've ever seen them as extreme as the article makes it out to be.

Yes there are differences between CT and JHB, but I can't say that I've ever seen them as extreme as the article makes it out to be.

When was the last time you were in Joburg? Before the rains?

I've been to JHB during the rains

Well Nostra you're clearly a man of big words... Panacea this, panacea that.... but clearly not a man of fact. Fact#1 the Western Cape has the highest living standard in the country (disposable per capita income), Gauteng has a bigger economy, but about quadruple the population. KZN is by no means the 2nd biggest ( not by a long stretch) with the Western Cape having highly developed service based industries, i.e banking, insurance, IT and the most entrepreneurs in the country. Fact#2 California is one of the top 10 economies(besides the rest of the US) on the planet, it fluctuates between the 6th and 8th spot. Fact#3 South Africa is a white invention from 1910. Never used to be one country. So not quite sure what your hang up is about the children of the Khoi ruling the west, as they have done for thousands if not millions of years!

^^Bullsh#t facts as per usual. Where do you get them, Cape Party website?

W.Cape does not have the highest GDP per capita in the country. Gauteng does.
Gauteng does not have X4 more ppl than W.Cape.
W.Cape is not the second largest provincial economy in SA, KZN is.
W.Cape is not ruled by the children of the Khoi (whoever the hell that is) it's ruled by DA.
Take off them race-tinted glasses of yours, we're talking political ideology not race here...

And I must say it truly depresses me that there are still idiots like Nostra in SA who support the ANC *vomit*

Typical DA supporter, you pretend to be a tolerant liberal till you're challenged then the insults start flying. Don't worry though, I know your type. I'm sure to you the great Madiba is also an idiot for supporting the ANC?

A tale of two cities

The Radisson Blu hotel in Granger Bay near the V&A Waterfront in Cape Town arguably enjoys one of the finest locations of any hotel in that elegant city. It sits right next to the ocean at the entrance to the harbour but is far enough from the bustle of the V&A Waterfront development to offer peace and quiet at night. The staff are friendly and efficient, the rooms are immaculately clean and the common areas of the hotel just ooze opulence. The main bar and terrace are ideally positioned to catch the setting of the sun and in the morning you can sit on that same terrace and watch dolphins frolicking in the surf while you ponder what to eat next from the extensive breakfast offering.

Last week was one of those blissful weeks that make life on the southern tip worth living. I had to fly to Cape Town for the launch of the new Porsche Cayenne (more of that later this week). Normally these are fly in and fly out in one day affairs but I hadn’t been to Cape Town for two and a half years so I asked Porsche to fly me in early and out late to give me time to enjoy the mother city. A good friend suggested the Radisson Blu which is why I found myself in one of their Business Class suites for three nights with the most superb view of the sunrise from my private balcony. A trip to Kirstenbosch to scatter the ashes of my late parents among the cycads and a leisurely drive along the coastline plus several very enjoyable dinners with friends filled the rest of the time.

What strikes one immediately about Cape Town after such a long absence are the changes that have occurred over the past couple of years. Flying down from Johannesburg it is impossible not to contrast the two cities; the one obviously falling apart and the other well run and efficient. There’s little to choose between our respective airports because both are magnificent structures which stand head and shoulders above most other airports in the world that I have passed through. It’s only when you leave the airport and drive towards Cape Town that you begin to notice the difference. The grass verges next to the motorways look tidy, there are no pot holes in the roads, the robots work, the city itself looks cleaner and well cared for and the overall impression is that of a well run municipality as opposed to the atrocious mess that Mayor Amos Masondo has made of Johannesburg. The ANC don’t much like this of course because the city of Cape Town is run by their political opponents, the DA. The harsh reality is that the DA have shown the ANC how a city should be run and the likes of Tony Yengeni and Julius Malema benefit from that as they party away at places like The Grand and ZAR. But that doesn’t alter the fact that they would prefer the ANC to be allowed to bugger the place up and turn it into another Johannesburg.

Cape Town has become such a jewel of a tourist destination that allowing anyone to deliberately destroy that fragile reputation is unthinkable. However, watching Egypt’s tourism industry go up in a puff of smoke last week makes one realise that things can easily change within a very short time. Egyptians are on the streets demonstrating against high food prices, unemployment, corrupt government and poor prospects and all those complaints apply equally to the many South Africans who live in shacks near the exquisitely rebuilt Cape Town airport. Many of the political leaders from the party they elected to power prefer to swan around in luxury cars, drink expensive whisky and hang out in fashionable clubs and restaurants. Nothing wrong with that if you can explain where you made your money and how such behaviour fits in with your declared interest of bringing a better life to the poor. Perhaps a solution would be to move the Cape Town shack dwellers en masse to Johannesburg. If they go on the rampage and start ripping up the roads up here nobody will really notice the difference.http://www.richmark.co.za/Images/newstime_logo.jpg

I particularly like the last sentence, so revealing. He seems to be in denial that Cape Town has the worst shanty towns in the country. go to Mbombela, Polokwane, let alone Joburg you'll never find vast shacklands like you find in Cape Town.

On second thought I think you're one of those people who vote ANC because they promise you free washing machines and hair-dryers and stoves. hahaha.

Eesh...I vote for you because you promise me a free stove and cellphone.

Shame, you think all ANC supporters are poor and only vote ANC because they've promised us trinkets like cellphones, how patronising but expected.

Shame, you think all ANC supporters are poor and only vote ANC because they've promised us trinkets like cellphones, how patronising but expected.

No, I have friends who vote ANC and along with their families are linked to the ANC.

I said YOU are probably one of those. Just you.

Your lack of reason and inability to provide facts or even attempt to debate are all about you NOT the ANC. I have great respect for the founders of the ANC, and various ANC politicians currently in office.

I acknowledge ALL the good work the ANC do, including the allocations for BRT to Cape Town, the decision for a road maintenance fund, the millions of houses built, hospitals, and generally the massive task post apartheid, which left the country in a complete mess.

My point is that I'm not going to vote for them simply because they are "the ANC" which is exactly what you are doing.

If the ANC can deliver better in Cape Town, then I will vote ANC, its as simple as that.

For now the DA have by far and far and far delivered more and have in doing so have done significantly better for ALL of Cape Town, as indicated by several independent studies on service delivery.

You are simply loyal to the ANC, you really don't give a fuck about service delivery or the state of education for your kids or relatives.
And hence, being promised a washing machine will certainly just give you more reason to vote ANC.

^^Bullsh#t facts as per usual. Where do you get them, Cape Party website?

W.Cape does not have the highest GDP per capita in the country. Gauteng does.
Gauteng does not have X4 more ppl than W.Cape.
W.Cape is not the second largest provincial economy in SA, KZN is.
W.Cape is not ruled by the children of the Khoi (whoever the hell that is) it's ruled by DA.
Take off them race-tinted glasses of yours, we're talking political ideology not race here...

The DA have proven that they can deliver and its a fact that they have done better in both the City and Western Cape than the ANC

and yet YOU'RE the one throwing around the "race-tinted" comments?

Bringing things back to civility and a factual argument.

This is the DA's electioneering: Look at unqualified audits, look at the Auditor General's declaration of Cape Town as best run local government, the findings that the Western Cape has the highest levels of basic services, we govern here, vote for good governance and accountability.

This the ANC's electioneering: If you vote ANC, you will go to heaven, if you vote for another party, you vote for the evil entity with a fork. Members of the ANC will go to heaven.

Party A = Garners votes by scaremongering, blasphemy, presuming "they know the earthly decree of God," by feeding superstition and playing on uneducated fear.

Party B = Garners votes by trying to govern better and telling the voting populous about it.

I wonder who heaven ordains being "evil." I am Christian, NEVER EVER EVER use God as a tool, ever. God is NOT a tool, he is a deity and NEVER presume to know His intentions. The latest outburst from certain individuals is proof there is no real way they can electioneer using facts, they grasp at an unwilling God to do their political dirty work, which is downright SICK. God and politics DON'T mix. God is pure and politics is dirty and should never be married. Those who pass judgment on earth, so shall you be judged in heaven... you presume to know St. Peter's methodology and entrance policy? You're in deep trouble with Heaven my friend... if you believe in God as you claim, you'd be in fear after such disgusting abuse and misuse of God for selfish means.

Bringing things back to civility and a factual argument.

This is the DA's electioneering: Look at unqualified audits, look at the Auditor General's declaration of Cape Town as best run local government, the findings that the Western Cape has the highest levels of basic services, we govern here, vote for good governance and accountability.

This the ANC's electioneering: If you vote ANC, you will go to heaven, if you vote for another party, you vote for the evil entity with a fork. Members of the ANC will go to heaven.

Party A = Garners votes by scaremongering, blasphemy, presuming "they know the earthly decree of God," by feeding superstition and playing on uneducated fear.

Party B = Garners votes by trying to govern better and telling the voting populous about it.

I wonder who heaven ordains being "evil." I am Christian, NEVER EVER EVER use God as a tool, ever. God is NOT a tool, he is a deity and NEVER presume to know his intentions. The latest outburst from certain individuals is proof there is no real way they can electioneer using facts, they grasp at an unwilling God to do their political dirty work. God and politics DON'T mix. God is pure and politics is dirty and should never be married.

Aaah, your hypocrisy knows no bounds. "Fight Back" or "Stop Zuma" campaigns, do they ring a bell?

No, I have friends who vote ANC and along with their families are linked to the ANC.

I said YOU are probably one of those. Just you.

Your lack of reason and inability to provide facts or even attempt to debate are all about you NOT the ANC. I have great respect for the founders of the ANC, and various ANC politicians currently in office.

I acknowledge ALL the good work the ANC do, including the allocations for BRT to Cape Town, the decision for a road maintenance fund, the millions of houses built, hospitals, and generally the massive task post apartheid, which left the country in a complete mess.

My point is that I'm not going to vote for them simply because they are "the ANC" which is exactly what you are doing.

If the ANC can deliver better in Cape Town, then I will vote ANC, its as simple as that.

For now the DA have by far and far and far delivered more and have in doing so have done significantly better for ALL of Cape Town, as indicated by several independent studies on service delivery.

You are simply loyal to the ANC, you really don't give a fuck about service delivery or the state of education for your kids or relatives.
And hence, being promised a washing machine will certainly just give you more reason to vote ANC.

There you go again telling me what I think, you don't know me from a bar of sunlight so cut that crap.

I've already given a comprehensive list of what I consider ANC examples of service delivery, such as mass electrification, good economic management, housing delivery, widening tertiary education, etc, but you choose to remain obtuse...

mass electrification? you mean without actually expanding the generation capacity, this plunging the country into rolling blackouts?

Good economic management?.. you mean like the billing crisis in JHB, and all the bankrupt municipalities around the country?

house delivery? you mean those RDP houses that were built less than 5 years ago and are now falling apart because the contractors the jobs were given to cut so many corners?

widening tertiary education? you mean at the expense of the actual quality of the education and graduates?

^^ Don't try to factually reason with the blindly loyal. It is energy spent on a lost cause. People who vote purely along colour lines, ignoring the facts are showing their de facto racial prejudice and have no moral high-ground to inherently cling to. Under the old ANC guard, I supported them. After the moral decay of the mid-2000's within what was a party of freedom and democracy, I abandoned the them. The people do not owe any politician or party anything... politicians are supposed to the servants of the people. If they lose sight of that, they lose my support.

An election is not about ideology, an election is about selecting your "country's board of directors," an election is a business transaction of who can run the "company" the best giving you the best "return on your shares."

Their newest electioneering tactics are showing their loss of morality, truth and accountability to the people. If you need to abuse superstition, religion and deities to garner votes, you have lost touch with what matters on Earth.

There you go again telling me what I think, you don't know me from a bar of sunlight so cut that crap.

I've already given a comprehensive list of what I consider ANC examples of service delivery, such as mass electrification, good economic management, housing delivery, widening tertiary education, etc, but you choose to remain obtuse...

The reality Nostra, which seems to be only hitting you right now, is that you'll vote for ANC no matter what. This is what I have an issue with, not that you are voting ANC.
You'll find any facts to support or justify your vote for the ANC, even if other parties, COPE, DA or any other party has proven to deliver more, and better.

when i first came to these forums, as a newbie i said how suprised i was at the political discussions(actually just one sided mudslinging) on the forums. i felt then as i do now that they dont have a place here. those comments eventually drove me and at least one other person i know to not interact here as much.

with all due respect. the general political opinion on south african ssc is trite and has all the insight of a news 24 comments section. you guys have nothing new or revealing to offer on the south african political discusson. this wont be heeded of course, but you should stick to giving opinion and input on things you know something about. urbanism and the built environment. thats why people come to these forums.

as i predicted then the arrival of one dissenting voice amongst the chorus of one sided blind DA support will drop the conversation down a few notches. well... on cue.
i suspect that nostra might not even be as staunch an anc supporter as he's playing to be but the kind of political opionating and commentry that is taken as fact here would drive one to do worse

when i first came to these forums, as a newbie i said how suprised i was at the political discussions(actually just one sided mudslinging) on the forums. i felt then as i do now that they dont have a place here. those comments eventually drove me and at least one other person i know to not interact here as much.

with all due respect. the general political opinion on south african ssc is trite and has all the insight of a news 24 comments section. you guys have nothing new or revealing to offer on the south african political discusson. this wont be heeded of course, but you should stick to giving opinion and input on things you know something about. urbanism and the built environment. thats why people come to these forums.

as i predicted then the arrival of one dissenting voice amongst the chorus of one sided blind DA support will drop the conversation down a few notches. well... on cue.
i suspect that nostra might not even be as staunch an anc supporter as he's playing to be but the kind of political opionating and commentry that is taken as fact here would drive one to do worse

Believe it or not but some forumers may actually know more about politics and service delivery, good city audit's than urbanism and the built environment.

I am not in the built environment industry, but from an Actuarial background, so I can appreciate a good clean audit for a city, good finances, and effective service delivery in communities due to extensive community work. I will go down to the figures of budget, the supply chain management, the environmental details if you want me to because its all available on the city website, so I do find it disrespectful that you've simply categorized forumers here because you feel we are from the "built environment".

How is my support for the DA blind-sided? I barely mention the ANC on these forums, and most of my criticism has been directed at flaws with the City of Cape Town, the DA, since this is an area I feel I know enough of. I'll vote KISS party if they can deliver better, but time and time again the facts have proven that the DA have done better, and I will vote accordingly.

Thanks for the comment, but I suspect the reason you have failed to participate in these discussions, is based on what you have actually included in your post above, i.e. mainly rubbish. An easy way out to proclaim "I am not really into these discussions". What a swipe at various forumers to compare the quality of debate here to "News 24" when the only forumer that has posted words/phrases like "swart gevaar" and "race tinted glasss" are Nostra.

Believe it or not, in the real world, Annman, Lydon, Andrew, myself and other Capetonians come face to face with the improved delivery of the DA, whether its setting up a new partnership to improve an urban area or an investment decision or the general risks in dealing with the City. Credibility and good governance matters and filters directly into the business world creating a much improved business environment and provides expats abroad with a reason to return home.

The DA have and continue to deliver more and better & whether or not we are blinded DA supporters as you have decided does not change that fact. The beauty of democracy is that yourself and Nostra can vote for any party you choose, but please don't come to these forums and justify your vote with rubbish and "mass electrification".

If by some miracle the ANC win the local elections, and deliver more and deliver more effectively, they will definitely have my vote for the next set of elections. Unfortunately they have had their chance and failed dismally. I'm not sure which part of the last statement needs to be elaborated.

when i first came to these forums, as a newbie i said how suprised i was at the political discussions(actually just one sided mudslinging) on the forums. i felt then as i do now that they dont have a place here. those comments eventually drove me and at least one other person i know to not interact here as much.

with all due respect. the general political opinion on south african ssc is trite and has all the insight of a news 24 comments section. you guys have nothing new or revealing to offer on the south african political discusson. this wont be heeded of course, but you should stick to giving opinion and input on things you know something about. urbanism and the built environment. thats why people come to these forums.

as i predicted then the arrival of one dissenting voice amongst the chorus of one sided blind DA support will drop the conversation down a few notches. well... on cue.
i suspect that nostra might not even be as staunch an anc supporter as he's playing to be but the kind of political opionating and commentry that is taken as fact here would drive one to do worse

hear hear, all pretense of objectivity goes out the window when one criticises the DA. All manner of pseudo-facts are dredged up to show how W.Cape is heaven on earth, all kinds of insults fly if you dare suggest that CPT is not a utopia. I remember Annman suggesting that the WC has the lowest homicide rate in the country, I challenged him on the fact and pointed out that Limpopo is actually the safest province in SA and he started swerving like a taxi with a tyre blow-out :lol:

hear hear, all pretense of objectivity goes out the window when one criticises the DA. All manner of pseudo-facts are dredged up to show how W.Cape is heaven on earth, all kinds of insults fly if you dare suggest that CPT is not a utopia. I remember Annman suggesting that the WC has the lowest homicide rate in the country, I challenged him on the fact and pointed out that Limpopo is actually the safest province in SA and he started swerving like a taxi with a tyre blow-out :lol:

You are NOT criticizing the DA. You are inventing generic facts and most of the time spewing rubbish, with the odd inclusion of "swart gevaar" and "race tinted glasses". Does that include those here who are non-white?

Get an education and then return here and possibly debate the real flaws of the DA of which there are many, and which I have been willing to debate time and time again.

Continue with your rubbish filled posts and your posts will be treated accordingly. We have long moved on from your undying love for the ANC, and have basically just been entertaining your dumb statements.

mass electrification? you mean without actually expanding the generation capacity, this plunging the country into rolling blackouts?

Good economic management?.. you mean like the billing crisis in JHB, and all the bankrupt municipalities around the country?

house delivery? you mean those RDP houses that were built less than 5 years ago and are now falling apart because the contractors the jobs were given to cut so many corners?

widening tertiary education? you mean at the expense of the actual quality of the education and graduates?


Govt put a moratorium on new power plants because they wanted pvt sector to build power stations as it was in vogue back in the day. It was not incompetence, they were under the undue influence of neo-liberal economic thinking. Thankfully those days are over...
1. Good economic management as in navigating the country from the recession back to health. Halting the steady depreciation of the rand which started in the 80's...
2. Pls provide proof that the majority of RDP houses are falling apart. Out of 2 million plus homes built what percentage is now falling apart?
3. Please give proof that SA's tertiary qualifications have been devalued.

Ummm it was incompetence, they electrified the country willy nilly without paying attention to the strain on the power generation capabilities of the country. Even if they wanted pvt power stations to be built, these take 10 odd years to come on stream, so should have been makings plans LONG before this

1) That is ONE aspect of the economic management of the country.. and it ignores the issues that actually face the man on the ground, aka the people who get R100k electricity bills that can't afford them because someone cocked up with the new billing system and they aren't able to take responsibility for their cockup.

2) who said anything about the majority, and I'm sorry.. if even 1 of those houses fall down due to piss poor building then its 1 too many.

3) Proof? have you had to deal with the graduates coming out of tertiary education now? the majority of them are NOT up to scratch anymore.

You are NOT criticizing the DA. You are inventing generic facts and most of the time spewing rubbish, with the odd inclusion of "swart gevaar" and "race tinted glasses". Does that include those here who are non-white?

Get an education and then return here and possibly debate the real flaws of the DA of which there are many, and which I have been willing to debate time and time again.

Continue with your rubbish filled posts and your posts will be treated accordingly. We have long moved on from your undying love for the ANC, and have basically just been entertaining your dumb statements.



You're proof that a high powered tertiary education cannot make one an intellectual. You're what a call smart-dumb dude: Mind full of textbooks but lacking common sense. I mean you were making yourself look like a clown on the DBN forums arguing that you're privy to documents that show that the UN wants to reverse govt's decision to award COP17 to DBN. What happened to that explosive dossier anyways?

delete

Govt put a moratorium on new power plants because they wanted pvt sector to build power stations as it was in vogue back in the day.


I agree, I think most people don't get.



1. Good economic management as in navigating the country from the recession back to health. Halting the steady depreciation of the rand which started in the 80's...

+1

2. Pls provide proof that the majority of RDP houses are falling apart. Out of 2 million plus homes built what percentage is now falling apart?


I also don't agree that most RDPs are falling apart, it's just that the ANC built small houses but they improving everytime they build new one. I went to Kagiso the other day to do a TopTV installation and the house we installed in was what most people would wish to have for free. Well done ANC.


I have to say most forumers especially Annman and Mo have been commenting in a balanced way pointing out the posetives and the negatives of the ANC.


I acknowledge and appriciate what the ANC have done but like most South Africans are saying, the ANC could do better and instead of improving in terms of delivering the service, they actually going down the slope. Pity most of them are suffering from cacoethes of wanting to fill their pockets with considering the needs of the people. The ANC will have to sweat for my vote.


I'm an amateur photograher and keep progressing of what is happening in the CBD and have to concur that it's detoriating. I think we need to go back and look at all wonderful projects that the ANCcame up with in rekation to tuening Joburg a World Class African city and see the dissapointment and the evidence of the city going down the drain. The ANC have failed such a marvelous city while thier counterparts in the Mother City are doing an outstanding job. I went to CT last year November after being there about 4 years ago and I have to say big ups to Zille and the DA.

^^I appreciate your constructive criticism Pule. My argument is not that the ANC is perfect but I just cannot take the sneering know-it-all attitudes of some ppl. The thing is that I'm not just using Joburg as a yard-stick, if you go to my home province of Limpopo, things have changed a lot: from roads, to houses to electricity. I went there this weekend the standard of living that ppl have now and what they had before is like the difference between night and day. I'm only 25 but I can remember when electricity was a luxury, barely 10 years ago, now it's a rarity for someone not to have electricity. Roads used to only go between the large town, now there are beautiful roads through the mountains linking previously unlinked villages. Under circumstances like that I'm not willing to throw the baby out with bathwater.

Peace...

^^ I agree Nostra, they have done a lot but it's like having to praise a father who takes care of his children as if it was never his responsibility. The ANC had to provide people with Electricity, roads, proper schools *I give them thumbs up, they doing an outstanding job*, etc but while they build roads, they fail to even fill potholes that have mushroomed across the province of Gauteng. yes, it might have rained but we have been complaining about potholes since ever. I might have not driven that much through shanty of Cape Town but Alex and Diepsloot do not come anywere close to to shanty towns of Cape Town.

I as well hate it when people complain bluntly about the ANC with even giving proper facts. We all need to reason like intellectuals, me excluded. Honestly, I wish DA could take control of Gauteng just for one term so that not the political elites not the so called intellectuals can benefit but the poor. Given full power all political parties think that they have control over people. I hate poverty, it sickens me. I hate to see our people living in squalor conditions while we have the ability to take them out of poverty. South Africans are not lazy and to any one saying we are, I say BULL SHIT. South Africans are thinkers, South Africans are people of value and one day all these political parties who are taking us for a ride will realise that.


Let's stop baseless arguments, let's stop xhenophobic nor racial tendencies, let's embrace our differences be it political or racial difference.

I must say I concur entirely with the ideas presented by our Capetonian forumers in this thread. And I must point out that this isn't always the case, if anyone remembers the Cape Town vs. Joburg wars of the past you would know ;).

It's unfortunate that this thread, which had so much potential to become a healthy debate on the failures of government, has turned into people entertaining a certain forumers idealistic rants. I myself have resigned from wasting energy in pointing out that we are not racist devils because we vote DA, but I give a thumbs up to everyone else who are trying so hard to show otherwise!

Nostra, you have failed in every argument you have presented. Blanket statements like "mass electrification", "mass housing", "mass tertiary education", mean absolutely NOTHING when they aren't implemented with the most careful and thought out planning. Yes, the ANC pinned its hopes on getting private power producers. Did they make a back-up plan? What if no private companies would be interested due to the low cost of electricity? None of this was accounted for and hence the distribution network was brought to the brink of collapse and billions lost for the economy. They tried, they failed. Having a plan is well and good, but you ALWAYS need a plan B, and C and D and the ANC government had none.

Yes, the ANC built millions of houses. However, they have not done NEARLY enough for the majority of poor and homeless people in this country. Alexandra, Thembisa, Mamelodi, etc etc etc are still absolute DUMPS that millions of people live in every day, yet the ANC has huge parties, drive big cars, make corrupt deals with friends and families, etc. A large amount of these houses are falling apart and corruption is rife. And if you ask for 'proof' about this as if it's not true then I re-iterate my comments that you are an idiot.

Yes, the ANC opened up tertiary education to everyone in SA. Did the primary and secondary education systems collapse? They sure did. The mess that the ANC has created of the education system (OEB anyone?) is one of the single most devastating blows dealt to this country. It will take DECADES to fix the mess the ANC has created of the education system, we aren't the lowest ranked country in literacy and numeracy for no reason.

Typical DA supporter, you pretend to be a tolerant liberal till you're challenged then the insults start flying. Don't worry though, I know your type. I'm sure to you the great Madiba is also an idiot for supporting the ANC?

Everyone knows that the ANC is not the same institution is was in the Mandela era. And no I don't think Mandela is an idiot.
By the same token you probably think Helen Suzman is just another racist white woman?

It sucks that I wasted energy on explaining what has already been explained by the other forumers in this thread, since it will just go straight over the head of the idealistic ANC supporter(s). But being the creator of this thread I guess I have to add something.

I've watched so many documentaries and reports on the TRC, apartheid and racial relations in South Africa and to be honest I can't blame the man on the street who lived in the apartheid era to be wary of the 'white' DA and be pro ANC. But when it comes to intellectuals debating the failures of government you will just look like a complete ass trying to paint the ANC of today as anything but an institution who is bringing this country down, fast.

I also resent comments such as 'forumers on SSC have no knowledge of politics'. I find that some (not all!) of the forumers are extremely experienced and knowledgeable people and it's an honour to get their valuable feedback. It's a pity that it's wasted on people like Nostra. I think the real reason people like Letter16 haven't contributed is because THEY can't come close to the logical reasoning displayed by our forumers. It's probably best it stays that way.

Anyway Nostra, like it's been said before, please apply your democratic right and vote ANC, atleast you'll be guaranteed a place in heaven.

And Nostra I know you don't want to listen to us because you probably think we are all "white DA supporters", which is clearly not the case.

You should listen to a guy like Pule, who is very respected on these forums, for he has more knowledge about the happenings of Joburg and the effect of the ANC municipality than most. If you go thru the Joburg discussions you will see that things aren't as rosy as you'd like them to be. The moment anyone criticises the ANC it's immediately because we are racists,etc.. What a load of rubbish! We want this country to succeed just as much as the guy living in a shack in Alex. You really need a serious wake up call Nostra.

but I just cannot take the sneering know-it-all attitudes of some ppl.

:hilarious!

Oh the irony.

These are some of the things we need not ignore from the ANC but it should not only happenign when we heading towards the pools and jobs like this are supoosed to be 'permanent' if we are to make Joburg the World Class African City.

http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6194&catid=88&Itemid=266

Let it not just be a publicity stunt, let's all get to work and save the soul of not just this city but the country as a whole.

@inertia
i'm by no means intimidated by your, or the other forumers "logical reasoning" and "great experience". in fact the opposite is true. i really do not feel "honoured" to be privy to any of the political views here. what a laugh. ill reply fully to you and mo when i have time in the evening

You're proof that a high powered tertiary education cannot make one an intellectual. You're what a call smart-dumb dude: Mind full of textbooks but lacking common sense. I mean you were making yourself look like a clown on the DBN forums arguing that you're privy to documents that show that the UN wants to reverse govt's decision to award COP17 to DBN. What happened to that explosive dossier anyways?

1. So somebody that uses the words "swart gevaar" and "race tinted sunglasses" is an intellectual? When have I ever made reference to your race or even stated my race or your race?


Which part of my tertiary education is necessary to understand failed service delivery by the ANC? Which part do I require to know that a computer company should not be building N2 Gateway houses for the poor?

The appointment primarily involved the IT [information technology] field of Cyberia and that Cyberia had no real construction experience. The AG’s representative confirmed that the evaluation committee had ranked Cyberia sixth


2. Mind full of textbooks: I've worked in these communities, something you fail to read.



3. You like every other forumer, are more than welcome to request the COP17 e-mail. You have not, as have many Durbanites.

For the 93rd time I ask.

Which areas in Cape Town or the Western Cape about the DA would you like to debate? Health? Education? Good Governance?

The DA is ahead of the ANC is most if not all areas.

^^I appreciate your constructive criticism Pule. My argument is not that the ANC is perfect but I just cannot take the sneering know-it-all attitudes of some ppl. The thing is that I'm not just using Joburg as a yard-stick, if you go to my home province of Limpopo, things have changed a lot: from roads, to houses to electricity. I went there this weekend the standard of living that ppl have now and what they had before is like the difference between night and day. I'm only 25 but I can remember when electricity was a luxury, barely 10 years ago, now it's a rarity for someone not to have electricity. Roads used to only go between the large town, now there are beautiful roads through the mountains linking previously unlinked villages. Under circumstances like that I'm not willing to throw the baby out with bathwater.

Peace...

And even if there was a party that could do more for your province, and do it better, you would still vote ANC, which is your right.

It certainly won't be a vote based on who can do the best job.

Anyway Nostra, like it's been said before, please apply your democratic right and vote ANC, atleast you'll be guaranteed a place in heaven.

You clearly fail to mention that hairdryers and washing machines not delivered after voting for the ANC on earth, will be delivered in heaven.

On a more serious note, I support the ANC and its interventions in many areas, including the work of Trevor Manuel (most of it but not all) and the constitution, amongst other things.

In fact, Nostra can vote for who he pleases, but having experienced the change (and lack of change in some areas) in service delivery, from community halls to paving, to urban interventions to governance, in these communities, through CSI projects or Habitat for Humanity, I'm not sure how much more facts needs to be presented for Nostra to acknowledge that the DA have done a better job in CT.

A vote for the ANC is certainly not based on service delivery. Not if the DA is having to deliver toilets and sanitation to townships 16 years later.

The Auditor General is a DA stooge. The International Association of World Mayors are DA stooges. The media are DA stooges. The SAIRR are DA stooges. The UN's HDI compilers are DA stooges.

This is siege mentality and cannot be refuted by any facts if the minds the facts are meant for are indoctrinated. I do not believe the ANC of 2011 is the ANC of 1994... thus my cynicism; the heart, soul and moral fibre has been eroded. It's become about power, not people.

These same arguments, Mugabe makes about the UK, that Kim Jong Il makes about America... I'm seeing a psychological parallel with form-of-leadership here.

And, if someone wants to ignore me, my opinion or my credentials in working DIRECTLY with NGO's, local governments and provincial governments of both the ANC and DA persuasion, by all means, put me on your ignore list. I don't need anyone to validate my intellect or experience.

And Nostra I know you don't want to listen to us because you probably think we are all "white DA supporters", which is clearly not the case.

You should listen to a guy like Pule, who is very respected on these forums, for he has more knowledge about the happenings of Joburg and the effect of the ANC municipality than most. If you go thru the Joburg discussions you will see that things aren't as rosy as you'd like them to be. The moment anyone criticises the ANC it's immediately because we are racists,etc.. What a load of rubbish! We want this country to succeed just as much as the guy living in a shack in Alex. You really need a serious wake up call Nostra.

Why would I discount what you say just because you're white? You guys really have a chip on your shoulders, if you're talking out of your a$$ I'm going to call you out,I don't care about your pigmentation.

Pule has his opinion and I have mine, I do respect him but I don't have to listen to him. I'm my own man.

When did I say anyone is a racist? Please pull up that quote where I accused a DA-supporter of being racist. I do consider some of them flip-flopping clowns but racist, nah. They don't deserve that.

Why would I discount what you say just because you're white? You guys really have a chip on your shoulders, if you're talking out of your a$$ I'm going to call you out,I don't care about your pigmentation.

Pule has his opinion and I have mine, I do respect him but I don't have to listen to him. I'm my own man.

When did I say anyone is a racist? Please pull up that quote where I accused a DA-supporter of being racist. I do consider some of them flip-flopping clowns but racist, nah. They don't deserve that.

With comments like swart gevaar and race tinted glasses, why on earth would we think you would discount anybody based on race?

^^you really clutching at straws here. No matter, it's what you guys are good at. Always putting words in people's mouth hoping that'll shut them up.

Which part of my tertiary education is necessary to understand failed service delivery by the ANC? Which part do I require to know that a computer company should not be building N2 Gateway houses for the poor?



The appointment primarily involved the IT [information technology] field of Cyberia and that Cyberia had no real construction experience. The AG’s representative confirmed that the evaluation committee had ranked Cyberia sixth






Tuesday Feb 08, 2011
Hawks probe ex-city boss over N2 Gateway



The City of Cape Town has confirmed that a criminal complaint has been filed with the police against one of its most senior former officials in connection with allegations of tender rigging relating to the N2 Gateway housing project.


Bulumko Msengana, former executive director for utility services, recently left the employ of the city after his contract expired, amid allegations of an "African purge" by the DA-led city administration.
But last week, following enquiries by the Cape Argus about a short entry in the auditor-general's report on the City of Cape Town's 2009/10 performance, city spokeswoman Kylie Hatton confirmed that the city manager had filed a complaint against Msengana at Cape Town police station last February.


This was done after a review of the project by Parliament's standing committee on public accounts (Scopa), and after obtaining legal advice.


Police confirmed a complaint had been filed and referred to the Hawks' commercial crimes unit. The Hawks did not respond to questions.


Msengana also did not respond to a list of questions, sent to him on Wednesday via fax as he had requested.


The Cape Argus could not find evidence of disciplinary proceedings being instituted against anyone else or of other complaints being filed with the police. This was despite questions having been raised by Scopa about the conduct of a number of officials and politicians around the N2 Gateway.


The complaint against Msengana relates to the appointment of IT company Cyberia as project manager of the flagship housing development in 2006.


The company's appointment was the subject of months of interrogation by Scopa.


According to the city's submission to Scopa, Msengana - who was not working for the city at the time of the tender decision, but was later appointed to a senior city position by the ANC - chaired an external body that had altered tender scores in favour of Cyberia during a 15-minute meeting.
Cyberia had originally ranked sixth and had no project management experience in the construction industry.
A bid evaluation team headed by Laurine Platzky from the provincial government had, following the completion of the technical evaluation, supported the appointment of Africon.
After an "urgent unscheduled meeting" on December 17, 2004, however, the external Goods Services and Property Advisory Board recommended that Cyberia be awarded the contract instead.
Only four of the seven members of the board, among them Msengana, were present, but there were no city officials at the meeting.
An independent forensic report by auditors Sizwe Ntsaluba VSP said it had been found that the board had irregularly "re-evaluated and scored the tender".


The city told Scopa that the original tender evaluation committee had been concerned at the decision to appoint Cyberia, as it was "involved in the IT field and had no construction experience".
It was further revealed that Cyberia had not even submitted a proper tender document "but one that merely comprised a 20-page generic submission which did not give any indication or instil any confidence that they were capable of doing the job".

The company also tendered on an hourly basis, which was not in line with the requirements, and added a 10 percent "management fee" to its hourly rate, which exceeded the industry norm by 4 percent.
Cyberia was initially appointed at a cost of R5m, but after less than a year it was given another R3m because it had "expended the allocated budget before the expiry of the 12-month period and the conclusion of the tender".


In January 2006 the contract was extended by a further R4.6m, "for the termination of the contract which was regarded as being in the best interests of the city and the public".


Hatton said the city had to wait for the police to do a "proper investigation" before action could be taken.


She denied that the complaint, under the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, was the reason for Msengana's departure. She said his contract had ended and had not been renewed. It had been extended previously.
Cape Argus

^^ disgusting

^^you really clutching at straws here. No matter, it's what you guys are good at. Always putting words in people's mouth hoping that'll shut them up.

Clutching to straws?

For the 94th time, which of the DA flaws in governing CT would you like to debate? In particular the areas you feel the ANC outperformed the current DA government?

Would you like a copy of the full report of the N2 Gateway housing tender scandal which was awarded to a computer company Cyberia?

I have read it, have you?

^^DA hypocricy as per usual, if they 're as competent as they claim why do they need to splurge half-a-billion on consultants?

Zille must come clean28 Jan 2011 | Sowetan Editorial | 4 comments
REPORTS that the DA-led Western Cape government has spent R684million on consultants in just one year raises many questions about Premier Helen Zille.
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RELATED ARTICLESTruth triumphs
This is a leader who has always been telling the public she is heading the best run province in the country.

She is also known to make noises about how the ANC misspends taxpayers' money on consultants and political cronies who are given government tenders.

Of even more serious concern is how Zille has failed to fully account how she has spent the taxpayers' millions paying these so-called experts to help her administration.

Zille must understand that it is the taxpayers' democratic right to know how each and every cent of their hard-earned money is being spent.

It is, for example, not enough to say that the consultants she employed "provided expertise that is confined to institutions that are better equipped and have the necessary skills to assist in a specific field".

This smacks of the kind of political arrogance that taxpayers do not have to brook.

Zille, like all other political office-bearers, is accountable to the South African public.

She has been voted into power by people who expect her to not only serve their interests but also treat them with respect.

Claiming to be, or being punted as, heading the country's best run province does not absolve her from theseresponsibilities.

We agree with the ANC that Zille must come out and publicly declare who are the consultants she has hired and at what cost

Can this article possibly compare how much each of the ANC provinces have spent on consultants in the same fiscal year as well?

Given that the eThekwini municipality on its OWN has had irregular spending of R532,5-million and that section 36 contracts (award in exceptional circumstances - aka not the normal procurement procedure) had gone to over R1billion.

Oh as for the houses aspect 9387 houses were built but 6007 had to be rebuilt or rectified, thats over 63% of the houses built by the eThekwini municipality (ANC run) that were NOT up to scratch.

^^Go on tell us how much ANC metros have spent on consultants...

^^DA hypocricy as per usual, if they 're as competent as they claim why do they need to splurge half-a-billion on consultants?

Zille must come clean28 Jan 2011 | Sowetan Editorial | 4 comments
REPORTS that the DA-led Western Cape government has spent R684million on consultants in just one year raises many questions about Premier Helen Zille.
Share9
RELATED ARTICLESTruth triumphs
This is a leader who has always been telling the public she is heading the best run province in the country.

She is also known to make noises about how the ANC misspends taxpayers' money on consultants and political cronies who are given government tenders.

Of even more serious concern is how Zille has failed to fully account how she has spent the taxpayers' millions paying these so-called experts to help her administration.

Zille must understand that it is the taxpayers' democratic right to know how each and every cent of their hard-earned money is being spent.

It is, for example, not enough to say that the consultants she employed "provided expertise that is confined to institutions that are better equipped and have the necessary skills to assist in a specific field".

This smacks of the kind of political arrogance that taxpayers do not have to brook.

Zille, like all other political office-bearers, is accountable to the South African public.

She has been voted into power by people who expect her to not only serve their interests but also treat them with respect.

Claiming to be, or being punted as, heading the country's best run province does not absolve her from theseresponsibilities.

We agree with the ANC that Zille must come out and publicly declare who are the consultants she has hired and at what cost

You are debating the awarding of a housing tender to a computer company to Zille's use of consultants to build hospitals, for which the ANC previously "could not find a budget" for?



The R680-million was also spent on contractors, she said, including construction companies, town planners, engineers, architects, medical specialists and social workers.



"[They are] helping us build new hospitals and schools, administer life-saving medical screening tests and construct the infrastructure that keeps the economy growing."

^^Go on tell us how much ANC metros have spent on consultants...

W Cape is the best-governed province: AG

Jan 20, 2011 12:41 PM| By The DA has welcomed the auditor-general's presentation to parliament in which he revealed that the Western Cape was the best-governed province in South Africa for the 2009-10 financial year.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/multimedia/dynamic/00026/297437_1907272_jpg_26160b.jpg DA leader Helen Zille
Photograph by: Tebogo Letsie

FULL STATEMENT
The Democratic Alliance (DA) welcomes the Auditor-General's presentation to parliament yesterday in which he revealed that the Western Cape was the best governed province in South Africa for the 2009/10 financial year.



The province and all of its departments received unqualified audits, a feat unmatched by any other province. It also marked a significant improvement on previous provincial audits under the ANC's Western Cape administrations. The fact that the DA accomplished this in its first year of provincial leadership bears testimony to our dedication to clean financial management and efficient administration.



The Auditor-General singled out our efforts in the province, stating: "The most notable improvement in the audit outcomes of departments occurred in the Western Cape where seven departments and five public entities improved to financially unqualified with no findings on either predetermined objectives or compliance with laws and regulations." He further said that: "The province is the first whose financial statements of all of its departments and public entities are financially unqualified."
These are enormously significant achievements, and the people of the Western Cape will benefit because of them.
The Western Cape's financial probity has lead to robust and dependable infrastructure development. For instance, the province played a major role in ensuring that all provincial municipalities spent 100% of their Municipal Infrastructure Grants (MIGs), which focus infrastructure development in poor communities.


Working with municipal leaders on a monthly basis (no matter their party affiliation), the province kept track of municipal MIG spending, providing support where needed.
However, we echo the concern noted by the A-G about the performance of certain departments in other provinces, especially education and health.
Three provincial education departments received qualified audits and three more received disclaimers. Meanwhile, three provincial health departments received qualified audits and four more received disclaimers.
We agree with the Auditor-General that this needs to change: far too many provinces are failing the health and education of their residents. The layoff of teachers in the Eastern Cape this week highlights precisely why poor administration and rampant misspending in provincial departments cannot continue to be tolerated.



We are pleased to note the slight improvement amongst national departments, but agree with the Auditor-General that much more could be done. The Auditor-General plans to institute a rolling procedure of quarterly audits, in which it works with departments and entities to get them in compliance by the time it conducts its annual financial audit.


This is a superb idea. Some serial offenders with long histories of qualified audits - such as Correctional Services, Defence, Justice, Constitutional Affairs and Labour - would benefit a great deal from this continuous oversight.

That the City of Cape Town, under a DA government, has once again been awarded an unqualified audit is particularly significant when contrasted with the situation facing the City of Johannesburg.


The City is on the verge of receiving a qualified audit as a consequence of its billing chaos, since the Auditor-General has rejected financial statements from both Joburg Water and from City Power. The audit, which was due for completion in December, and should have been tabled at the end of January, remains on indefinite hold.


Should the City of Johannesburg receive a qualified audit, this would almost certainly affect its credit rating, which will hamper the City's ability to attract investment, raise money and pay back R15 billion in long-term loans. It goes without saying that this, in turn, will affect the City's growth prospects and ability to deliver services.
The problems facing Johannesburg could not stand in starker contrast with the details presented in the City of Cape Town's report:


On housing, the City has also provided another 8 950 housing opportunities and acquired more land for future long-term development. This compares favourably to the performance of the ANC when it ran the council. In the ANC's last three years in charge of the city (2003-06), it provided just 9 862 housing opportunities, while the DA provided some 24 965 housing opportunities in the last three years (2007-10), a 253% increase.



In terms of service delivery, the City has virtually set the standard by which all metros are judged. The most recent Universal Household Access to Basic Services (UHABS) report ranked the city as the top metro for the provision of water, sanitation, refuse collection and electricity. The City provided 100% of formal households with access to basic water and sanitation services and 92.18% with access to electricity. Of all known households in Cape Town, 99% receive basic levels of solid waste removal.


On infrastructure development, the City saw R12.4 billion in investments and improvements for the 2010 World Cup, such as the Cape Town Stadium, downtown roads and bridges, the Green Point Urban Park, public transport infrastructure and various sports complexes. All of these legacy projects will benefit city residents for years to come.


Finally, in addition to its unqualified audit, the City has maintained its positive long-term credit rating of Aa2.za for the fifth consecutive year.



Cape Town's growth, development and good governance bear testimony to the fact that where the DA governs, we are determined to deliver efficient, transparent and responsive government for all the people.


Statement issued by James Lorimer MP, Democratic Alliance (http://www.da.org.za/) Shadow Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, February 4 2011

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I dare Nostra, to acknowledge on these forums, at least one of the facts in the articles above.

^^Go on tell us how much ANC metros have spent on consultants...

Well how about the ANC run metro of Madibeng (which is bankrupt by the way), has spent R7m on consultants.

One municipality in a province managed to spend that, you have to wonder how much was spent by the rest of the province.

^^ To answer a question posed. I was the one who had "Swart Gevaar" comments used against my opinion. So, the person who claims they have never insinuated a racist agenda is not being truthful.

I think all on these forums should abandon discussion, because there is no proof showing numerous ANC run municipalities have received unqualified audits. Nobody has shown ANC municipalities have less irregularities and that alleged consultancy fees have not helped Cape Town build more houses and medical infrastructure. Nobody is forthcoming with statistical facts or Auditor General documentation substantiating claims that the DA is worse at service delivery and governance.

The burden of proof is not being accepted, the factual rebuttal is not being heard and thus, this debate is no longer a debate based in reality. It is debate based on personal political ideology and hearsay and therefore is worth no one's time or energy.

Annman: The AG has found the WC to be the best province
Nostra: You are swart gevaar
Mo Rush: The DA has improved service delivery and housing, backed by the Institute of Race Relations independent study
Nostra: How do you know my definition of service delivery?
Mo Rush: The ANC awarded a housing tender to a computer firm
Nostra: You are a typical University educated textbook person
Inertia: The roads and services in Cape Town are better
Nostra: Mass electrification
Pule: I go to all parts of JHB and see the lack of services
Nostra: That is his opinion, I have my own
Toxicbunny: As for the houses aspect 9387 houses were built but 6007 had to be rebuilt or rectified, thats over 63% of the houses
Nostra: Go on, show me the houses.

I'm hurt.. you left me out *sniff*

hahahaha Toxic!

Is Johannesburg a World Class City? This is the real question we should be asking.
Is it a safe place for children to play in parks, a city that provides clean, safe, drinking water, a constant, steady supply of electricity, a city that provides regular, good service delivery. A city that has good working hospitals and excellent public schools. A city that is corrupt free and where potholes are regularly repaired, a city that embraces its history? NO.
IMO Johannesburgs biggest failure lies within its cbd, council just doesnt have the competence too turn around the inner city centre, thus leaving investors with no confidence. Sure, billions have been spent, new lighting, pavements and infrastructure have been put in place, but then they just arent maintained, bylaws and respect for public property have gone down the toilet. Have a look at some of Pules updates, they are worth a million words.
Look at CPT, a massive inner city regeneration kicked off and changed the citys image for good, thats where JHB should start, ground zero.
But lets go back some 25/30 years ago, the cbd was the epitome of modern living, Johannesburgs answer too New York, highrise apartment blocks and office towers, street level shopping, restaurants, bars, discos, the works! Hillbrow to me, is its saddest story, it could and should have been SAs melting pot. The epicenter of the new SA, but it was destroyed through lack of political will. It should have worked for US SAs, not for Nigerians, Zimbos... etc.
Johannesburg isnt just Sandton or Rosebank, Soweto or Alexandra. Its a very complexed city with complexed issues. Yes, alot has been done in the former townships, but you cant focus on one area and let the rest all too rot!
Regarding its world class status, I would argue that definitely NO, those of us who work abroad and travel around, have a clearer idea of what a world class city is, but not present day Johannesburg.
I think its pointless too continue presenting facts that arent acknowledged. One has too understand that the majority of the electorate will vote time and again for the ANC, not that its a better performing party than the DA, but because the DA is seen as a whites only party, for whites interest ONLY!

^^ The FACTS I present here will be refuted again, not because there are counter-facts or real experience to the contrary, but because people ideologically "feel" is cannot be true and will continue to vote the way they do.

Let me introduce myself...

I am Andres, convener of the Breede Valley Partnership, Executive Officer of the Worcester Business Forum, ex-officio Business and Planning for the Worcester Tourism Association (and chief Cultural Diversification Project manager for both), inter-organisational-governmental liaison for the Breede River Valley and Planning Manager of the empowerment wing of Du Toitskloof Wines, Fairhills (FairTrade); handling cooperative ITP and IDP drafting/NGO input in the Cape Winelands too.

This is my job, every single one of the above. I have dealt with every possible government agency, from the national Dept. of Rural Development and Land Restitution, to Province of the Western Cape, to BreedeValley Municipality, to the City of Cape Town, to the Cape Town Partnership, to national Dept. of Agriculture, national Dept. of Energy Affairs... list goes on...

I am FOR community development. My chief partner is Community Chest Western Cape, the largest philanthropic organisation in the country. I am FOR empowerment of the people, thus I have created a model for agri-villages and rural development for the W.C. Dept of Agriculture. I WANT, NEED people of all classes and creeds to succeed. I believe in holistic empowerment. I believe in uplifting all to forge a brighter future for all. Not focusing on the rich, not focusing on the poor... but realising everyone's future is one... one South Africa, one future, one success or one failure. You address it ALL or you fix nothing.

PS. I am an American... so I carry NO apartheid baggage. I carry NO historical animosity, I carry NO hatred for any race, oppression or history. I look to what can be, not what was. Thus me despising racial voting patterns. I was an ardent supporter of Obama, even to the degree that my car got smashed because I had the campaign sticker on my bumper in the USA. You vote for what's right, not for what looks like you!

My opinion is based off my observations, my working with and my cooperation received from government entities. I have seen a very disturbing pattern that I cannot deny. And, additionally, I cannot vote, I'm a US citizen, so my political opinion/inputs has no direct benefit to the own "cross" I could make. My opinion is based completely based off of a governmental willingness to cooperate for the greater good, a competency to implement an agenda for the greater good and a commitment of government to look beyond the election numbers and see the job that must follow an electoral mandate.

Hereafter... If I'm a moron in your eyes. So be it... may you live in your own self-imposed-and-perceived-intellectual bliss.

Is Johannesburg a World Class City? This is the real question we should be asking.
Is it a safe place for children to play in parks, a city that provides clean, safe, drinking water, a constant, steady supply of electricity, a city that provides regular, good service delivery. A city that has good working hospitals and excellent public schools. A city that is corrupt free and where potholes are regularly repaired, a city that embraces its history? NO.
IMO Johannesburgs biggest failure lies within its cbd, council just doesnt have the competence too turn around the inner city centre, thus leaving investors with no confidence. Sure, billions have been spent, new lighting, pavements and infrastructure have been put in place, but then they just arent maintained, bylaws and respect for public property have gone down the toilet. Have a look at some of Pules updates, they are worth a million words.
Look at CPT, a massive inner city regeneration kicked off and changed the citys image for good, thats where JHB should start, ground zero.
But lets go back some 25/30 years ago, the cbd was the epitome of modern living, Johannesburgs answer too New York, highrise apartment blocks and office towers, street level shopping, restaurants, bars, discos, the works! Hillbrow to me, is its saddest story, it could and should have been SAs melting pot. The epicenter of the new SA, but it was destroyed through lack of political will. It should have worked for US SAs, not for Nigerians, Zimbos... etc.
Johannesburg isnt just Sandton or Rosebank, Soweto or Alexandra. Its a very complexed city with complexed issues. Yes, alot has been done in the former townships, but you cant focus on one area and let the rest all too rot!
Regarding its world class status, I would argue that definitely NO, those of us who work abroad and travel around, have a clearer idea of what a world class city is, but not present day Johannesburg.
I think its pointless too continue presenting facts that arent acknowledged. One has too understand that the majority of the electorate will vote time and again for the ANC, not that its a better performing party than the DA, but because the DA is seen as a whites only party, for whites interest ONLY!

Man, I feel you pain, but I still say, the reason why there is a different voting pattern in the western cape is because of its history. People seem to forget that the Cape Province is part of south Africa or became part of the union of south Africa in 1910. Which means, before that, we were like a country on our own. We were living the western way already, because of the history we have.

A lot of my African black friends who were born and bread in cape town have the same mind set. Esp the lower middle, middle and upper middle blacks that I know of.

I hope the people of Johannesburg will start voting with there heads and not hearts. AND NOSTRA PLEASE, I AM NOT SAYING THAT PEOPLE SHOULD VOTE FOR THE D.A. I AM SAYING THAT PEOPLE SHOULD VOTE FOR A PARTY THAT CAN DELIVER.

Is Johannesburg a World Class City? This is the real question we should be asking.

NO.

Is it a safe place for children to play in parks, a city that provides clean, safe, drinking water, a constant, steady supply of electricity, a city that provides regular, good service delivery.

NO

A city that has good working hospitals and excellent public schools. A city that is corrupt free and where potholes are regularly repaired, a city that embraces its history?

NO.


IMO Johannesburgs biggest failure lies within its cbd, council just doesnt have the competence too turn around the inner city centre, thus leaving investors with no confidence.


+1...what irritates me the most is that the CBD houses mainly our African people who gets abused by the taxi guys on a daily base. Filth around the CBD is the worst of any CBD in South Africa but we claim the Joburg is the wealthies city in Africa...By calling Joburg A World Class African City, we actually undermining Africa...Look at Namibian Cities, Look at Cape Town and the Durban is getting close...those can pride themselves as the World Class African cities cause they don't just develop infrastructure for publi stunt and leave it to rot after the media people with their cameras have gone. In Summary, joburg CBD is sh!t. With all these being said, Braamfontein, South Western Parts of the CBD and Maboneng Precinct are exceptions and that's all because of the private sector. S bar, #1 bar and other have been shut down 'because' of licenses but the illegal bars and all other illegal businesses are operating openly across the City. Photographers are being harrased for taking photos of streets like Main and other nice buildings across the City...I guess the reason is that Joburg hates cleanliness, they want the worl to see it's sh!t...Well Again this is a place were more than 90% of residents and tenants are Black Africans and same black brothers don't care about them :bash:

Sure, billions have been spent, new lighting, pavements and infrastructure have been put in place, but then they just arent maintained, bylaws and respect for public property have gone down the toilet.

Publicity stunt...be careful when walking on the CBD streets as the CCTV are just being used for decoration purposes. Thousands of jobs can be created in the CBD if it's being taken care of...tourism would boom because this city have got so much history...but hey, we don't want competent people with the city structures but our friends who are politically alligned to a specific political party...


Look at CPT, a massive inner city regeneration kicked off and changed the citys image for good, thats where JHB should start, ground zero.
Honestly, Zille deserve my vote...In the Vaal, here in Joburg and even at work DA is the way to go...and this is from my African brothers and sister...They have heard enough of empty promises...they have heard enough of "Work with your government for the best of the country" because in a true sense it means "Work with the government so that their friends in a certain political party can still your ideas and implement them to their own benefit"...

But lets go back some 25/30 years ago, the cbd was the epitome of modern living, Johannesburgs answer too New York, highrise apartment blocks and office towers, street level shopping, restaurants, bars, discos, the works! Hillbrow to me, is its saddest story, it could and should have been SAs melting pot. The epicenter of the new SA, but it was destroyed through lack of political will. It should have worked for US SAs, not for Nigerians, Zimbos... etc.



Don't you even dare go back to those days...when i was a litie my late brother used to tell me about Hillbrow and Yeoville...those places are the ones that played a role in terms of political education...people of different colours used to go there and enjoy the lights of Joburg while on the otherside making sure that Aluta Continua. Today, we see drugs being sold day light...and hear a lots of strories regarding the drug factories and the abuse of woman...Thanks to Masondo and his croonies...

Johannesburg isnt just Sandton or Rosebank, Soweto or Alexandra. Its a very complexed city with complexed issues. Yes, alot has been done in the former townships, but you cant focus on one area and let the rest all too rot!

Big ups to masondo for driving the revatilization of Soweto and that's one of the very few success storis of the new South Africa...this is the black pride...were Africans made sure that their African brothers and sister enjoy the fruits of freedom...

That the City of Cape Town, under a DA government, has once again been awarded an unqualified audit is particularly significant when contrasted with the situation facing the City of Johannesburg.


The City is on the verge of receiving a qualified audit as a consequence of its billing chaos, since the Auditor-General has rejected financial statements from both Joburg Water and from City Power. The audit, which was due for completion in December, and should have been tabled at the end of January, remains on indefinite hold.


Should the City of Johannesburg receive a qualified audit, this would almost certainly affect its credit rating, which will hamper the City's ability to attract investment, raise money and pay back R15 billion in long-term loans. It goes without saying that this, in turn, will affect the City's growth prospects and ability to deliver services.
The problems facing Johannesburg could not stand in starker contrast with the details presented in the City of Cape Town's report:














Cape Town's growth, development and good governance bear testimony to the fact that where the DA governs, we are determined to deliver efficient, transparent and responsive government for all the people.


Statement issued by James Lorimer MP, Democratic Alliance (http://www.da.org.za/) Shadow Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, February 4 2011

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wow you give me a statement by the DA singing DA's praises, how objective. JHB's been getting unqualified audit reports as well, let's see how the latest one comes out.
2010 City gets unqualified audit
Written by Lucille Davie
27 January 2010

The successive clean audits are expected to improve investor confidence in Joburg and boost its credit ratings.
NOT only has Joburg received its third consecutive unqualified audit report from the auditor-general, but each of the City's municipal-owned entities (MOEs) have for the first time received unqualified audit reports.


The City's successive clean audits are expected to improve investor confidence "A 'clean audit' is a significant achievement for a city the size and complexity of Johannesburg," said Executive Mayor Amos Masondo at a press briefing.
"If we take into account the current global economic climate and the tough environment experienced by both the public sector and private companies across the world, it is worthy of being celebrated and is something to be proud of."

The MOEs are Metrobus, Johannesburg Roads Agency, Joburg Theatre Complex, Roodepoort Theatre, City Parks, Johannesburg Zoo, Johannesburg Social Housing Company, Johannesburg Development Agency, Joburg Market, Johannesburg Property Company, Johannesburg Tourism Company, Metro Trading Company, City Power, Joburg Water and Pikitup.

Masondo referred to President Jacob Zuma's directive in 2009 that finances were one of the government's primary priorities for 2010. Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs Sicelo Shiceka launched Operation Clean Audit 2014, which requires all 283 municipalities countrywide to obtain clean audits by 2014.

"We are thus proud to report that South Africa's largest city, the flagship of our economy, commerce, investment tourism and culture, has achieved this goal well in advance of the deadline - and we have proven that we can sustain it," added Masondo.

He explained that the City had established its own Operation Clean Audit programme in 2004. This involved establishing the Johannesburg Risk and Audit Services unit, which had the goal of identifying high-risk areas. The Independent Group Audit Committee works with private sector professionals in this regard.

Credit ratings
Masondo was confident that the successive clean audits would strengthen investor confidence, at the same time enabling the City to improve its credit ratings.

It has for the past two years achieved a long-term AA-(zaf) rating from the world ratings body, Fitch Ratings. The short-term rating for 2008 and 2009 was F1+(zaf).

The best long-term rating for a city is AAA(zaf), while the best short-term rating is F1+(zaf). The rating refers to the relative ability of an entity to meet its financial commitments.

In May 2009, Joburg announced a budget of R26,3-billion, the biggest municipal budget in the country. In February, the mayoral committee member for finance, Parks Tau, will announce his 2010 budget.

Masondo cautioned that despite the unqualified report, the auditor-general highlighted the need to improve the "management of fruitless and wasteful expenditure".

"I want to assure you that the City will look into all of these and correct them as part of our quest to improve the overall quality of our administration."

He stressed that Johannesburg would be striving for better clean audit reports, not for their own sake but to improve service delivery and the quality of life for all its people.

"In the final analysis, the clean audit is a victory for the people of Johannesburg, its residents, its ratepayers, its business community, all civil society organisations and communities



Read more: http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4780&Itemid=241#ixzz1DShwBRGg

^^ To answer a question posed. I was the one who had "Swart Gevaar" comments used against my opinion. So, the person who claims they have never insinuated a racist agenda is not being truthful.

I think all on these forums should abandon discussion, because there is no proof showing numerous ANC run municipalities have received unqualified audits. Nobody has shown ANC municipalities have less irregularities and that alleged consultancy fees have not helped Cape Town build more houses and medical infrastructure. Nobody is forthcoming with statistical facts or Auditor General documentation substantiating claims that the DA is worse at service delivery and governance.

The burden of proof is not being accepted, the factual rebuttal is not being heard and thus, this debate is no longer a debate based in reality. It is debate based on personal political ideology and hearsay and therefore is worth no one's time or energy.

Since some are publishing DA press statements as objective delivery reports, let me publish the what the city of JHB has to say for itself


2011-02-03: Joburg Scientific Survey
THE Democratic Alliance's 2010 Report Card is an unscientific and biased analysis on the City of Johannesburg.
The City of Johannesburg has made considerable strides since the first Mayoral term (2000-2005) to the second Mayoral term 2006-2011.

The City of Johannesburg has for the last eight years been conducting independent and scientific surveys to measure satisfaction levels with service delivery amongst households and businesses residing and operating in Johannesburg's area of jurisdiction. These surveys enable the City to identify key challenges and priority areas related to service delivery. These surveys are done by an independent institution.

The City received a clean qualified audit report in the year ending June 2007 and thereafter the City of Johannesburg established practices to ensure on going achievement of clean audits. A year later, in 2008 the City received its first unqualified audit since the establishment of the metropolitan form of government. This led to the City's third successive unqualified audit by the Auditor General from the year 2007 to 2009. We are hopeful that Joburg will receive another unqualified audit for the year 2010.

The City's current rating is:

•Moody's Rating Agency is Aa3.za
•Fitch Rating AA-(ZAF)
Put together the aforementioned mean: Double A Minus Investment Grade

The City continues to be committed to sound financial practices and management.

Looking back at the past year with regard to the 2010 FIFA World Cup, we can state with certainty and pride that Johannesburg has been the centre stage of South Africa's hosting of the best World Cup ever. Our City will always be associated with this magnificent event that brought so much honour and distinction to the African continent.

This is the contextualisation of Joburg's role in the 2010 FIFA World Cup:

•The kick off concert was held at Orlando Stadium on the 10th of June,
•The opening and closing ceremonies were held in Johannesburg on the 11th of June and 11th of July, respectively.
•All together fifteen (15) matches were played at both Soccer City and Ellis Park; including the first and the final matches.
•The Football For Hope Tournament was held in Alexandra Township from the 04th of July to the 10th of July.
•The International Broadcasting Centre that operated for an uninterrupted period of eight (8) weeks was based here,
•The FIFA 60th Congress and Presidential Banquet were held in Johannesburg as well as other parallel events in and around the City.
•The unforgettable nation building Bulls' game was played at Orlando Stadium in Soweto as a build up to the 2010 FIFA World Cup.
Other Indications of progress range from the introduction of Rea Vaya, the City's public transport legacy which has strengthened the public transport system in Johannesburg.

The indigent households receive a package of up to 15 kilolitres of free water per household per month and up to 150 kilowatts hour of free basic electricity. In addition, significant progress has been made in creating emergency shelter for residents in the Inner City.

The City's Greening Programme has exceeded expectations. To date we have planted more than 200 000. We continue to rehabilitate and green the Jukskei and Klipriver. We have secured the support of many partners who are willing to travel the journey with us to make the City of Johannesburg green, safe and clean. We also continue to green soccer fields, especially in the South. More than ten new parks were developed, and more parks and cemeteries were upgraded – clear evidence that the goal of a green city is being realised.

The City's work on HIV and AIDS is co-ordinated through the Johannesburg AIDS Council chaired by the Executive Mayor and constituted of Members of the Mayoral Committee and individuals drawn from civil society organisations and research institutions.

The City's Johannesburg Migration Advisory Committee chaired by the Executive Mayor and constituted of Members of the Mayoral Committee and individuals drawn from civil society organisations, other government departments and migrants across Johannesburg which was established in 2009, continues to grow from strength.

The visibility of policing has also been increased through an operational plan that focuses JMPD patrols at transport nodes, parks, and areas with high incidents of crime. In the area of social crime prevention, metro police officers have been trained in victim support skills.

The City established Section 79 Committees that coincides with the relevant political portfolios to provide political quality assurance and scrutiny on all the work undertaken in the City.

The City's efforts and achievements have been recognised and appreciated by other role players. They range from:

•Rea Vaya receiving the ITDP Sustainable Transport Award 2010 in Washington – 2010
•Joshco receiving the United Nations' 2010 Scroll of Honour Award for its holistic approach to providing shelter, which benefited almost 30 000 people around Joburg – 2010
•The JDA was awarded the Business and Arts South Africa (BASA) Award for Innovation for 2010, for various art pieces developed by local artists at BRT/Rea Vaya stations.
•The CoJ maintained its Blue Drop status, and achieved first place in 2010 for Blue Drop Excellence nationally.
•The Soweto Equestrian Centre won the South African Mixed Vaulting Championship at a final held in December 2009 at Kyalami.
•Joburg Water received an Isigidi Award for its Olifantsvlei Treatment Works as the best managed large facility in the country.
•The Alexandra Renewal Project (ARP) received a Scroll of Honour Award from UN-Habitat on 5 October 2009.
•JRAS received the Institute of Risk Management South Africa Award.
•The ZK Mathews Award, for the best performing group of ANC Councillors – 2010
•Best Youth EPWP Development Programme – 2009
•Gauteng Health and Social Development – second best performing district in Gauteng – 2009
•National Alfred Nzo Award on Research on Health Hazards caused by improper labeling of food – 2009
These Awards suggested that the City of Johannesburg must be doing something right.

The Municipal IQ briefing #248 dated 14 October 2010 under the heading analysis in its review stated that, “Johannesburg has shown improvement in Customer Satisfaction, albeit unevenly between services, and for this the City can be proud of areas of improvement. But like any Metropolis in a developing country, its economic success acts as a draw-card for migrants who often fail to secure the better life that they sought, or at the very least wind up compromised in terms of crammed living conditions for a transitional.

The City of Johannesburg is well placed for innovation and best practice in all aspects of delivery and leadership.

In the City of Johannesburg, we will continue working with residents to ensure the delivery of essential services and strengthening accountability and transparency.



Read more: http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6178&catid=209&Itemid=114#ixzz1DSlo2PJz

I will post the full Auditor General report comparing provinces. For completeness sake.

i.e. the report which indicates the Western Cape is top in this regard.

I'm not sure what the point is in posting this alleged confidential document, because even then, Nostra, will deny all of it with a "mass electrification" argument.

I'm not sure what more than the actual AG presentation is required in this case, so as Annman says: "The burden of proof is not being accepted, the factual rebuttal is not being heard and thus, this debate is no longer a debate based in reality. It is debate based on personal political ideology and hearsay and therefore is worth no one's time or energy."

^^ The FACTS I present here will be refuted again, not because there are counter-facts or real experience to the contrary, but because people ideologically "feel" is cannot be true and will continue to vote the way they do.

Let me introduce myself...

I am Andres, convener of the Breede Valley Partnership, Executive Officer of the Worcester Business Forum, ex-officio Business and Planning for the Worcester Tourism Association (and chief Cultural Diversification Project manager for both), inter-organisational-governmental liaison for the Breede River Valley and Planning Manager of the empowerment wing of Du Toitskloof Wines, Fairhills (FairTrade); handling cooperative ITP and IDP drafting/NGO input in the Cape Winelands too.

This is my job, every single one of the above. I have dealt with every possible government agency, from the national Dept. of Rural Development and Land Restitution, to Province of the Western Cape, to BreedeValley Municipality, to the City of Cape Town, to the Cape Town Partnership, to national Dept. of Agriculture, national Dept. of Energy Affairs... list goes on...

I am FOR community development. My chief partner is Community Chest Western Cape, the largest philanthropic organisation in the country. I am FOR empowerment of the people, thus I have created a model for agri-villages and rural development for the W.C. Dept of Agriculture. I WANT, NEED people of all classes and creeds to succeed. I believe in holistic empowerment. I believe in uplifting all to forge a brighter future for all. Not focusing on the rich, not focusing on the poor... but realising everyone's future is one... one South Africa, one future, one success or one failure. You address it ALL or you fix nothing.

PS. I am an American... so I carry NO apartheid baggage. I carry NO historical animosity, I carry NO hatred for any race, oppression or history. I look to what can be, not what was. Thus me despising racial voting patterns. I was an ardent supporter of Obama, even to the degree that my car got smashed because I had the campaign sticker on my bumper in the USA. You vote for what's right, not for what looks like you!

My opinion is based off my observations, my working with and my cooperation received from government entities. I have seen a very disturbing pattern that I cannot deny. And, additionally, I cannot vote, I'm a US citizen, so my political opinion/inputs has no direct benefit to the own "cross" I could make. My opinion is based completely based off of a governmental willingness to cooperate for the greater good, a competency to implement an agenda for the greater good and a commitment of government to look beyond the election numbers and see the job that must follow an electoral mandate.

Hereafter... If I'm a moron in your eyes. So be it... may you live in your own self-imposed-and-perceived-intellectual bliss.

^^Nah you're not a moron in my eyes, you're a good guy, it's just that our political ideologies can not be reconciled(yet). Good luck with your endeavors. :okay:

PART 1: AUDITOR GENERAL REPORT 2010

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5051/5430341609_00121991b0_b.jpg

^^ok point made. I concede. Not sure it'll make me vote DA though, maybe I'll vote ANC but spoil my ballot...

^^ok point made. I concede. Not sure it'll make me vote DA though, maybe I'll vote ANC but spoil my ballot...

You must vote for whoever you believe will transform our wonderful city into the world class destination it should be! And I hope we have shed some light on who that might be :cheers:

In the meantime, we need to spread the word to get people registering to vote. Official figures released today say about 1.4 million people (re)registered, pretty close to the target of 1.5 million. Second registration drive is probably gonna be somewhere around March.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/231-million-eligible-voters-20110209

^^ok point made. I concede. Not sure it'll make me vote DA though, maybe I'll vote ANC but spoil my ballot...

You should vote for who you want to vote, for your own private reason.

However, justifying your vote based on service delivery and good governance is a failed argument.

For many, the decades fighting and dying for freedom lead by the ANC is enough to ensure a lifetime vote for the ANC,which is something I do not have a problem with at all.

For many, the decades fighting and dying for freedom lead by the ANC is enough to ensure a lifetime vote for the ANC,which is something I do not have a problem with at all.
However, then say one's vote is an emotive one and not a current-circumstances one. If one says, "I'm emotionally connected to a party," then nobody can really argue against that.

However, then say one's vote is an emotive one and not a current-circumstances one. If one says, "I'm emotionally connected to a party," then nobody can really argue against that.

at the same time, why are you protesting about service delivery, when you can protest with your vote.

for now i am going to deliberately avoid making comments on any of the exhibits being brough in as "facts" to this discussion. this is not to say that they are true or untrue or that i have no "facts" of my own to make my point. i am trying to avoid what im saying being lost in a continuous back and forth cut and paste frenzy. presenting data, mumbers and opinions in supporting a point is worthwhile thing to do. choosing which information and how you present it to support a position of your choosing or to mislead is quite an easy thing to do. its quite easy to compile a long list data, reports and opinion of areas in which the da government has been uncessful in the western cape and elsewhere in the country. all of this stuff can lead nowhere. the point i am trying to make actually has nothing to do with how the da is worse than or better than the anc. its about respect and political maturity.


the feeling i get from reading these posts is that many of the forumers somehow feel that through their education,
occupation, country of origin, inherent talent for "logical reasoning" or whatever else; that they are better placed to make the correct political choice for the 2/3 of the country that vote anc. we are told that people have great experience and that we should be honoured to be privy to their utterings. the self importance is overwhelming. the arrogance, bigotry, ignorance, lies and very thinly veiled racism of the comments here are exactly what they accuse the anc and its supporters of. i can give you an example of each if you like.

political choice is informed heavily by idealogy. ALWAYS. of course political choice is not uni-dimensional and it is also formed by other factors. audit reports, number of potholes, aunt's favourite colour, whateverr may feature way down the list. this is not just my opinion. i think it's common sense(for me anyway) but it is also the subject of much research and many political work in how these many different things combine to form a political choice.

now, we are all subject to this. the ssc community has not reached some kind of elevated enlightenment where they are able to make political choices totally divorced from idealogy. idealogy is a very personal thing. a constant attack on peoples' political choice is not much different to a constant personal insult. add to that ACTUAL constant insults. "people vote for the anc because they are stupid and uneducated" is almost a mantra here. you are not the only ones with political frustrations and the need to voice them . when someone who is not neccessarily a da supporter comes on these forums and sees how eventually alot of threads end in da supporters exchanging odes to the d.a. and curses to the anc; it puts people off. people feel either bullied or unwelcome and the forum is poorer for the lack of plurality in opinion. in south africa, political opinion is quite often a synonym for class/geographical placing. its not there there are no anc supporters in townships who have the internet access and the need to discuss their area. this envrinment just doesnt allow for it. this might be the reason, for example, the soweto forum is so quiet despite the number of developments going on there.

if you were trying to convince people that through your experience you held some insightful anomalous political perspective; then people are going about it the wrong way. you dont do this by regurgitating south african middle class platitudes. if you go to news24 right now im sure you can find a comment there where someone insults an anc supporter by saying that they didnt recieve a kitchen appliance from the anc. its old, its unoriginal, its not funny and its not true. if you use the situation in zimbabwe/mugabe its the same. this one has existed in some form from pre '94 and it is almost punctuates every south african middle class complaint. then:"aah my back is sore from digging for this fall out shelter; this country is going to end up like the rest of africa". circa 1999 "aah there is no milk in this woolies; this country is going to end up like zimbabwe". its been many years, its old and hasnt been proved right and its no way to convince thinking people that you opinion is better than theirs. the political discussions here are a collection of such trite pronouncements. hence me saying that i dont think people here no any better about politics than any other south africans.



and then there are the emotive and unsubstantiated lies which have gained credibilty only through the number of times they've been bounced back and forth without challange. "johannesburg is falling apart". i suppose the biggest irony in all of this that we are all on a forum which in the main discusses development and infrastructure and people at the same time are ready to paint an apocalyptic picture of the country and a state that does not care about develpment and progress.

i do wish that people here would go easy on the politicking here but i realise its not going to happen and this forum will just be dominated with the same voice as the rest of the south african webspace.

^^You're far more articulate than I am. Good solid points all round. I am making a tactical retreat here, ideologically the gulf between me and the other posters is just too vast. The back and forth will never end.

ANC must jack itself up though, it's intellectually draining to dave to defend some of of its clownish moves.

I'll reply in full tomorrow, but do not confuse the debate here.

It is not the right to vote as you choose or even your reasons for your choice.

It's a debate on justifying your vote e.g. through suggesting service delivery is better in area in A than B.

Your vote is your private choice, your democratic right, but if you are going to use service delivery as a justification, then be prepared to back up such statements with concreted evidence rather than throwing around racial slurs, and attacking those with a tertiary education.

I do not intend to sway Nostra's vote.I do intend to inform him of the facts though. Acknowledgment of those facts is up to him.

The point is lost. It's NOT about who you vote for, it's about WHY you vote for whom. If the person states, "I vote on ideology," then all others will leave well enough alone. If people try to argue on facts, then substantiate as such. If they say, "I'm an issue-driven, not ideology-driven voter," than prove which issues have been solved by said political choice.

It's about owning up to why you vote, honestly. If ideology plays the largest role in your choice, admit it. Don't substantiate emotional decisions with nebulous concepts or facts.

Say, "I don't like the DA, because they do not represent me." That's an opinion that cannot be refuted, because then it becomes an ideological view that is forged in one person's mind and cannot be negated by another's opinion.

Putting words in our mouths is also uncalled for: Nobody ever inferred ANC supporters are dumb or stupid. See what Pule (who is not a DA supporter) has said about Mo and my balance of opinion. We inferred indirectly however that many an ANC supporter may not care for facts, but care more for loyalty, liberation-politics and ideology. However, I find the direct reference to me slightly offensive and once again, missing the point. Experience DOES count... sorry! It can give an informed inside view that a layman may not have. If an informed opinion is a bad thing or garnering information from those-in-the-know is negative... then, clearly, this is the wrong forum for such a person.

The nature of SSC is to get the information first from people close to sources. We come here to get facts on all topics, get them reliably and get them fast, often before the media do. Nobody here has also inferred that SA's coming to an apocalyptic end, as you so clearly pointed out that we apparently do! We said, things are not as good as they should be, let's change that for the better by changing our behavior.

One question I want answered immediately, does the ruling party support LeadSA? This would be a telling point as to whether government wants an active, well-informed, strong and responsible civil society? This would inform us of the "deep secret intentions" of the ruling party as to what system of government really suits their inner-aspirations.

Winston Churchill kept Britain in the war, he was trounced out of office as soon as it was over. Why because people were grateful but wanted the NHS.
The ANC fought hard and struggled on well but I would not elect someone for that. The generation has changed anyway. Good luck to the DA, sure aint perfect but the ANC are just pathetic. Oh no, I'm going to hell!

Does anyone know if the DA will be focusing on Pretoria/Tshawne at all? From my recollection the opposition parties only need a combined 7% (relative to last municipal elections) to take the municipality, whereas Johannesburg presents a greater potential swing required.

I have only seen DA comments on taking Johannesburg, and none about Pretoria, when Pretoria is the far more likely municipality to fall in these elections. I say this because of the voting trends, and my experiences from living here, where far greater proportion of the population seem to be put off by the ANC, than say in Johannesburg. Also from recollection COPE received strong support here which would aid any DA coalition.

I would be really disappointed if the DA is neglecting a very achievable Pretoria victory, for a pie in the sky Johannesburg victory (at least in this cycle). After all think about the prestige that would come with running two out of the three national capitals. (And the only two that matter.)

Does anyone know if the DA will be focusing on Pretoria/Tshawne at all? From my recollection the opposition parties only need a combined 7% (relative to last municipal elections) to take the municipality, whereas Johannesburg presents a greater potential swing required.

I have only seen DA comments on taking Johannesburg, and none about Pretoria, when Pretoria is the far more likely municipality to fall in these elections. I say this because of the voting trends, and my experiences from living here, where far greater proportion of the population seem to be put off by the ANC, than say in Johannesburg. Also from recollection COPE received strong support here which would aid any DA coalition.

I would be really disappointed if the DA is neglecting a very achievable Pretoria victory, for a pie in the sky Johannesburg victory (at least in this cycle). After all think about the prestige that would come with running two out of the three national capitals. (And the only two that matter.)

By Pretoria do you mean Tshwane?
If you believe the DA have a good chance of taking Tshwane why not start a "DA to take Tshwane thread"? :)

Well put annman and Mo, agree fully.

By Pretoria do you mean Tshwane?
If you believe the DA have a good chance of taking Tshwane why not start a "DA to take Tshwane thread"? :)


Well, I though the first line of my post would be sufficient to indicate that. You must be from Cape Town :tongue2:

Sorry, if this is the wrong place to post it, I just thought it would be more likely that I would receive a response here. At least I mention Joburg in the post a few times. :tongue2:

Winston Churchill kept Britain in the war, he was trounced out of office as soon as it was over. Why because people were grateful but wanted the NHS.
The ANC fought hard and struggled on well but I would not elect someone for that. The generation has changed anyway. Good luck to the DA, sure aint perfect but the ANC are just pathetic. Oh no, I'm going to hell!

It is of course your right to vote or elect as you please, but I don't think the human scale of the ANC's effort for freedom should be undermined or understated or even be limited to a sentence.

They, including current ANC apartheid and human rights fighters, sacrificed an amount that cannot ever be repaid, but what they fought for was for basic human rights for all, and the right to vote for any party.

I hope you do see my point that the ANC's role in the struggle (a major understatement) should not be downplayed or shoved under the mat under any circumstance, even when making reference to your reasons for voting today.

It is of course your right to vote or elect as you please, but I don't think the human scale of the ANC's effort for freedom should be undermined or understated or even be limited to a sentence.

They, including current ANC apartheid and human rights fighters, sacrificed an amount that cannot ever be repaid, but what they fought for was for basic human rights for all, and the right to vote for any party.

I hope you do see my point that the ANC's role in the struggle (a major understatement) should not be downplayed or shoved under the mat under any circumstance, even when making reference to your reasons for voting today.

I respect 100% the ANC and what they did against Apartheid, a fantastic job. They weren't the only ones of coarse, there's Helen but I am not voteing for anyone because they liberated me. May be the first 2 terms but after that it's up to them to deliver. I will happily say thankyou to the ANC for that, I just critisize the way it's taking the country and how it is run at them moment. Nelson Mandela a great guy, he not only played a vital part of liberation but delivered afterwards with the systems he put in place. Zuma, yep played his part but he is a terrible leader of a nation. To tell people that they can get away with sleeping with HiV partners by showering is a joke. Malema, was barely old enough to hold a placard but I understand he came from a poor background because of Apartheid and he had to put up with that. But he to is a complete idiout and corrupt by the looks of it.
Again thanks ANC, no words can put it in place and respect out to all those that suffered under apartheid but I will not vote for a party based on their past achievements.
I will happily commerorate their achievements though in their fight against apartheid. Well done to them.

Even the old NP would come up with better stats than the ANC in terms of service delivery.This is based on the fact that ANC as a liberation movement has a different mandate(more than just service delivery) of pulling out its people from the economic doldrums(promised land),and this off-course has been their achilles heel but since it seems they are the only party trying to deal with this issue,I suppose people will keep voting for them.

The central premise being,in SA,political liberation is almost nothing if you neglect economic liberation due to the history of wealth distribution and apartheid.Any political party with no liberation baggage will do just fine because there's money and experts.

my last post was only partly to do with this thread. its about something i have long noticed on this forum . i was again questioning the wisdom and value of throwing around politics on this forum.

so my references to what people have said is not neccessarily in this post. its elsewhere on these forums. insulting remarks are made quite often without any challange from the other forumers. with reference to putting words into peoples' mouth i can find several instances that i have seen here where people have at times inferred and often said verbatim that anc supporters are stupid.

you know what im talking about and if you really think its neccessary i can go and copy and paste.

my reference to ideology was admittedly perhaps a round-a-about verbose way of showing how the political discussion here can be viewed as insulting and leads to people being excluded. by the way i dont think anyone can say they dont vote based on ideology and suggest that they are somehow a more cerebral voter than others. or that other people dont care for facts or the truth. but that is a discussion for another time.

my point is that the political discussions on ssc(not just this thread) are often one-sided and contain alot of unchecked insults and politicaly the forum is not a very respectful or mature place.

^^ I have also been viciously insulted, called names, insinuated to "be things I'm not", attacked through constant ad hominems in many a discussion. Perhaps you need to reflect and maybe are too thin-skinned for a political debate. Politics is dirty, I've always said it. I don't condone ad hominems; I only want the issue to be argued. However, this claim that it's one sided is unfounded and untrue.

And again... don't assume by stating, "i dont think anyone can say they dont vote based on ideology." I'm a "cerebral voter" as you put it. In America, historically, I'm neither democrat, republican or libertarian... if I could vote here, I'd be historically neither consistently DA, ANC or whomever.

I vote for who can do the best job and who has the best governance track record and whose policies will most likely work in the "real world." These are not emotional criteria. If "good governance and accountability" are emotional-ideological criteria, then obviously we've lost sight of what government's job-description is.

If the Western Cape's credit ratings, audit reports, service delivery levels, levels of managerial competence and infrastructure maintenance records begin waning; you can trust they will lose my confidence in them.

It's this simple, once and for all...
DO YOUR JOB = YOU GET MY SUPPORT
What is your job? You are the board of directors, I am the shareholder, The country is the company.
I am indirectly your boss, do your job and improve my shares by improving my country. You do not do that, we elect a new board... period.

I respect 100% the ANC and what they did against Apartheid, a fantastic job. They weren't the only ones of coarse, there's Helen but I am not voteing for anyone because they liberated me. May be the first 2 terms but after that it's up to them to deliver. I will happily say thankyou to the ANC for that, I just critisize the way it's taking the country and how it is run at them moment. Nelson Mandela a great guy, he not only played a vital part of liberation but delivered afterwards with the systems he put in place. Zuma, yep played his part but he is a terrible leader of a nation. To tell people that they can get away with sleeping with HiV partners by showering is a joke. Malema, was barely old enough to hold a placard but I understand he came from a poor background because of Apartheid and he had to put up with that. But he to is a complete idiout and corrupt by the looks of it.
Again thanks ANC, no words can put it in place and respect out to all those that suffered under apartheid but I will not vote for a party based on their past achievements.
I will happily commerorate their achievements though in their fight against apartheid. Well done to them.

Agreed. My point was not really to do with voting. I just don't think we should make mention of the struggle in a fleeting manner, under any circumstances.

The ANC has delivered a lot since 1994 taking into account that they inherited an almost bankrupt state and they have put in place measures like NCA which have assisted the country from suffering the worst from recession. There are philomaths within the ANC, obviously Malema is excluded, even though they not in an extent of Nelson Mandela, Oliver Tambo and the likes but they prepared to work hard and make this nation a success. The same ANC government have invested in the likes of MeerKat, in missile development in conjunction with the Brazilians, in improvement of pimary health care, buildings schools etc but they not delivered to the extent that they could. There are plenty people out there who are blaming the party for non delivery but fail to look around and see the good the party have done and any SSC member who supporting the notion should sit back, take a chill pill and look around. All we want is the ANC to perform to it's limit and stop politisizing matters that are of national importance. Our people are poor, foreign crime syndicates have turned this country into their playground and they need to be taught a lesson *like the 6 who were caught yesterday for being bogus doctors*...


We do not want to see the Egyptian situation taking place in South Africa. We want a country that works, a country that respects human right and believ in upskilling their citizens. Annman, you have stated things you do for this country but plenty of us haven't even taken a single step in investing in upliftment of our people and that cannot be blamed on the ruling party. What are we as the literate doing for our people and the country respectively? What are we doing for the same City, johannesburg, that we complainging about? do we take time to visit the CBD and w3alk the streets as that might give us an idea of what role we can play in making the city a better place for all of us. We need not only talk behind the 2 meter walls with electric fences and barbed wires. We need to see more of the Brian.Ks, we need the drivers...Nostra, Inertia and other Joburgers who have been the major role players in this forum have got time to punch their keyboards and say what's ontheir mind but lack a drive to work together with other forumers to make Joburg a better place...Why don't we even spedn our money and fly to Cape Town, visit Annman and learn on how they do things that side. We very fortunate gents...

As mentioned below it is silly and almost pointless to demand others respect your political "ideologies" or "views".

I don't believe housing should be a priority but others are free to disagree. This is however entirely different to the DA increasing housing opportunities drastically and improving relations with other spheres of government.

^^ Thanks Pule and I'd love to share the experiences with anyone willing to listen. I wasn't born here, but my heart is here, my life is here, my friends and family are mostly here and thus my future is here. Thus, I try to positively contribute to it.

I may have my own views and opinions, but when it comes down to the day-to-day... I don't care who you vote for or support as long as you're willing to "really work" for South Africa. Not just blow smoke and opinions, but really be the change you want to see.

Worcester for example is a mess. It's the forgotten Winelands town nobody cares about. It's the anti-story to the successes of Paarl, Stellenbosch, Franschhoek and Robertson and it's sad... thus, I complain terribly... but instead of just complaining, I'm trying to change it.

Since the initiatives were begun in April of last year at my inaugural "Breede Valley Change Catalyst" seminar, NGO's are working together for the greater good. Better ties are being forged between civil society and local and provincial government. Town cleaning projects are being launched in March; A business and hospitality quality control audit has been launched today; SANRAL and local government are being engaged to improve town access and aesthetics leading into it; charity organisations are on board to bring more corporate social investment to those in need in the community; colour-lines are being eroded through the already successful Cultural Diversification Initiative; FDI is being brought to town through engaging investors and facilitating communication with local government.

The future looks bright, because we're trying to change it, for ourselves.

Good going Annman, please keep us updated. Can you please update your thread again. Please take pics as well so that we can see the before and the after. So far, what projects have seen the light or are about to?

^^ I'll update you in the other thread. The largest singular blockage to the formation of the private-public partnership is the local government dragging their heels in ratifying the "Partnership Formation Dossier."

2. Pls provide proof that the majority of RDP houses are falling apart. Out of 2 million plus homes built what percentage is now falling apart?


Government’s RDP houses mess will cost South Africa R58bn

http://blogs.timeslive.co.za/common-dialogue/2011/02/10/governments-rdp-houses-mess-will-cost-south-africa-r58bn/

“If we were to do effective rectification, we would require R58-billion – that is not for building, just for rectification,” the director-general of the Department of Human Settlements, Thabane Zulu, told a parliamentary portfolio committee.
But since minister Tokyo Sexwale said six weeks ago that he had set aside R1.3-billion to fix sub-standard houses this year, the new estimate of R58-billion came as a shock to MPs.
Well, a wise man once said that it is better to measure ten times and cut once than to measure once and cut ten times.
Cutting corners always costs more than doing something right the first time.

The ANC has delivered a lot since 1994 taking into account that they inherited an almost bankrupt state and they have put in place measures like NCA which have assisted the country from suffering the worst from recession. There are philomaths within the ANC, obviously Malema is excluded, even though they not in an extent of Nelson Mandela, Oliver Tambo and the likes but they prepared to work hard and make this nation a success. The same ANC government have invested in the likes of MeerKat, in missile development in conjunction with the Brazilians, in improvement of pimary health care, buildings schools etc but they not delivered to the extent that they could. There are plenty people out there who are blaming the party for non delivery but fail to look around and see the good the party have done and any SSC member who supporting the notion should sit back, take a chill pill and look around. All we want is the ANC to perform to it's limit and stop politisizing matters that are of national importance. Our people are poor, foreign crime syndicates have turned this country into their playground and they need to be taught a lesson *like the 6 who were caught yesterday for being bogus doctors*...


We do not want to see the Egyptian situation taking place in South Africa. We want a country that works, a country that respects human right and believ in upskilling their citizens. Annman, you have stated things you do for this country but plenty of us haven't even taken a single step in investing in upliftment of our people and that cannot be blamed on the ruling party. What are we as the literate doing for our people and the country respectively? What are we doing for the same City, johannesburg, that we complainging about? do we take time to visit the CBD and w3alk the streets as that might give us an idea of what role we can play in making the city a better place for all of us. We need not only talk behind the 2 meter walls with electric fences and barbed wires. We need to see more of the Brian.Ks, we need the drivers...Nostra, Inertia and other Joburgers who have been the major role players in this forum have got time to punch their keyboards and say what's ontheir mind but lack a drive to work together with other forumers to make Joburg a better place...Why don't we even spedn our money and fly to Cape Town, visit Annman and learn on how they do things that side. We very fortunate gents...

This is why I think voting DA would be 'throwing out the baby with the bathwater'. Masondo has done well in terms of arresting the decline of the city, but ANC should put somebody in power who is more visionary and dynamic to make the city leapfrog and to be the best city in Africa. I beieve the current ANC regime is far more responsive to ppl with regards to putting in better managers, they might not be Harvard Government School graduates but the understand management and rallying the troops.

Examples: Bheki Cele is doing well in terms of Policing, visible policing is working, they just need to do the same with JMPD, that Wayne Minaar is useless

motswaledi in health, Nzimande in High Education (I like his championing of FET colleges), Foreign affairs. Let's not succumb to the lie that SA is collapsing in a heap of incompetence...

This is why I think voting DA would be 'throwing out the baby with the bathwater'. Masondo has done well in terms of arresting the decline of the city, but ANC should put somebody in power who is more visionary and dynamic to make the city leapfrog and to be the best city in Africa. I beieve the current ANC regime is far more responsive to ppl with regards to putting in better managers, they might not be Harvard Government School graduates but the understand management and rallying the troops.

Examples: Bheki Cele is doing well in terms of Policing, visible policing is working, they just need to do the same with JMPD, that Wayne Minaar is useless

motswaledi in health, Nzimande in High Education (I like his championing of FET colleges), Foreign affairs. Let's not succumb to the lie that SA is collapsing in a heap of incompetence...

Which once again proves my point. You are voting for the ANC, not service delivery or good governance.

I rest my case.

^^Nah dummy, I'm voting coz I like having THE choice, if in your eyes it looks stupid who cares?

Examples: Bheki Cele is doing well in terms of Policing, visible policing is working, they just need to do the same with JMPD, that Wayne Minaar is useless



Bheki Cele is the man...like the hip hoppers say "He does his sh!t"...but the wait and see attitude in regards to JMPD won't work...Cele's guys should take over the duty of the JMPD...how many times have peopple on the ground and businesses complain about irresponsible hawkers and Taxi guys in the CBD? How many restaurants/take aways have closed in recent years because big spenders don't want to set their foot in the CBD because of harrassment by the Taxi guys and clogging of pavements by illegal hawkers? They have promised more than 10 times that they will attedn to the cause but they keep on failing and no one is fired for not performing their duties. Staying with hope has resulted in failure in most African countries and we don't wanna follow suite. Political parties need to know that they don't own their position but ervice delivery is what will keep them in the position.


motswaledi in health, Nzimande in High Education (I like his championing of FET colleges), Foreign affairs. Let's not succumb to the lie that SA is collapsing in a heap of incompetence...I'm not sure about Nzimande but Dr Motswaledi and Sisi Maite are doing an excellent jobs.


If we have to wait for each and every department to get it's act together, then we will have to wait another 16 years for effective and effecient service delivery. It doesn't matter as to who's in power but those in power must be kept to their toes. A good example is the Western Cape were both the ANC and the DA are not guranteed their positions till Jesus comes.

We need opposition Nostra, we really need one for the sake of me, you and every South African.

^^Nah dummy, I'm voting coz I like having THE choice, if in your eyes it looks stupid who cares?
eesh. I give up.

It doesn't matter as to who's in power but those in power must be kept to their toes. A good example is the Western Cape were both the ANC and the DA are not guranteed their positions till Jesus comes.

We need opposition Nostra, we really need one for the sake of me, you and every South African.

That's actually been my insinuated point all along. But nobody seems to listen, particularly some forumers. It is not necessarily about ANC versus DA versus anyone else. It's about keeping political hegemony to a minimum. Politicians who believe they will never be out-of-office and loose an election feel ALL the power. Thus, they don't care if they deliver or not, because their job and power is never in jeopardy and they will NEVER be accountable to the people.

Competition and stiff competition at that is always good. Proof is in the Western Cape's audits. Even under the ANC, the Western Cape's ANC government was over 200% more effective than the Eastern Cape... where, they feel they're a political hegemony.

Vote competitive for more accountable politicians and government... PE-RI-OD!

For my Joburg, I would vote for the party that promise the following -

1. Walkable pavements, free of illegal hawkers. would appriciate more if they promise 2 hawkers per block and hawkers must be provided with electricity and sanitation.

2. Metered Parking lots and move taxis to appropriate locations. I really don't have a problem with taxis stopping next to pavements as logn as they indicate their intentions in time. Actually it's good that taxis can stop were ever passengers wish.

3. Don't just fix the park and leave it to the homeless and the vandals. Employ our people to be guards on parks...pppllllleeeeeeaaaasssseeeee.

4. Work with the taxi, bus and retail industries to establish appropriate retail 'centers' around Taxi ranks and the main Rea vaya bus stops. We don't even have backpacking in the CBD as far as I know.



All the above will encourage the private sector to play it's role interms of investment. Imagine how nice it could have been if we have Hair Salons, Coffee Shop, pubs etc next to Rea Vaya Stations like the one at Joubert Park. Imagine how many people could have been benefited from job creation? Cleaners, Pubs, restaurants etc stuff, Backpackers stuff, indirect jobs etc. Damn Zuma could have achieved 500 000 jobs that he promised people.

^^ One concept: Private-Public Partnership for Jo'burg CBD, with initial aid from the City of Johannesburg to get it off the ground effectively.

When government, NGO's, civil society and business work together, the results can be magical.

Pule, I wish you lived here, so you could help me. :)

For my Joburg, I would vote for the party that promise the following -

1. Walkable pavements, free of illegal hawkers. would appriciate more if they promise 2 hawkers per block and hawkers must be provided with electricity and sanitation.

2. Metered Parking lots and move taxis to appropriate locations. I really don't have a problem with taxis stopping next to pavements as logn as they indicate their intentions in time. Actually it's good that taxis can stop were ever passengers wish.

3. Don't just fix the park and leave it to the homeless and the vandals. Employ our people to be guards on parks...pppllllleeeeeeaaaasssseeeee.

4. Work with the taxi, bus and retail industries to establish appropriate retail 'centers' around Taxi ranks and the main Rea vaya bus stops. We don't even have backpacking in the CBD as far as I know.



All the above will encourage the private sector to play it's role interms of investment. Imagine how nice it could have been if we have Hair Salons, Coffee Shop, pubs etc next to Rea Vaya Stations like the one at Joubert Park. Imagine how many people could have been benefited from job creation? Cleaners, Pubs, restaurants etc stuff, Backpackers stuff, indirect jobs etc. Damn Zuma could have achieved 500 000 jobs that he promised people.

Thing is when you see the types of things/events City of Johannesburg sponsors, one wonders whether this money could not be used better elsewhere.

I really hope the DA gets a ward or two.....but eish, we'll see

For Nostra:

Shock at R58bn bill to fix RDP houses

Disclosure that it will cost an astonishing R58 billion to fix shoddy RDP houses has caused outrage, with labour federation Cosatu calling for the heads of the culprits.

It was a "painful example of corruption, gross negligence and incompetence", said Cosatu, joining the DA's condemnation.

"The Minister of Human Settlements, Tokyo Sexwale, must urgently rectify the problems with these houses and ensure that those responsible for this disaster are brought to book," Cosatu said.

The bill for the dud houses was revealed by the department's director-general, Thabane Zulu, at a meeting of Parliament's human settlements oversight committee on Wednesday.

Both Cosatu and the DA were outraged at his admission that the department had no way of blacklisting the contractors who had done this. Zulu acknowledged to the committee that this was a major problem and a way had to be found to do so.

"Many of them may still have contracts with the national government to build more sub-standard housing," Cosatu said.

"Heads must roll for this squandering of taxpayers' hard-earned money, especially those workers who do not own houses and will have to wait even longer for a house, thanks to this debacle."

The DA said the contractors were "directly sabotaging the lives and human dignity of millions of South Africans with utter disregard for the consequences".

It called on Sexwale to implement an effective system of monitoring and oversight of building contractors, and to ban those who failed to meet standards from earning future contracts.

The figure of R58bn was even more astonishing, the DA said, in light of Sexwale's announcement six weeks before that he had set aside R1.3bn to fix sub-standard housing this year.

"Accepting this figure, it would take the national government 40 years just to fix badly built houses."

Given that the annual housing budget was R16.3bn, it would take three-and-a-half years to fix all substandard houses if the government spent the whole allocation just on this, with no new houses being built.

The DA will be writing to the chairperson of the human settlements committee requesting that Sexwale appear urgently before it to explain why the situation has been allowed to continue for so long, and to outline a plan for effective monitoring and oversight to deal with it.

DA human settlements spokesman, Butch Steyn, said in the statement that the Zuma administration's emphasis on prioritising housing "rings hollow when we look at the statistics of… the housing backlog, which stands at an estimated 2.1 million, affecting 12 million people".

"Most recipients of these houses have been waiting many years for a house to call their own, and they do not deserve to move into houses that will, at best, have to undergo extensive renovation soon afterwards, and, at worst, may endanger their lives," Steyn said.

"Not only is the state losing approximately R58bn, but the national government will continue to waste large sums of money on this for the foreseeable future," he said.

Daily News

Clearly the DA sabotaged these houses. That's why you should not vote for them.

Can we leave this to rest.

ANC a 'complete mess' - WikiLeaks
2011-02-20 17:41


Johannesburg - The ANC is a "complete mess" and its young cadres have no interest in history, but simply want access to jobs and personal enrichment, according to a United States embassy cable obtained by City Press through the whistleblower website WikiLeaks.

Download the cable here.

According to the cable, the ANC's Gauteng spokesperson Dumisa Ntuli told a US diplomat that crippling divisions were plaguing the ruling party.

Ntuli, who has denied discussing internal ANC issues with the US embassy, did not mince his words about the party, according to the cable, which is dated October 29 2009.

He reportedly said the party was deeply divided not only between supporters of Zuma and former president Thabo Mbeki, but "along multiple other lines", City Press reported.

"There are die-hard Zuma supporters, the pro-labour people, the Communists, the pro-Mbeki people and no one speaks for the same things," Ntuli is quoted as saying in the cable.

"Party leaders are seeking ways to restructure and unify the party so that younger members understand the history and values of the ANC.

"However, according to Ntuli these efforts are not going well and will only lead to failure.

Personal enrichment

"He said: 'The younger cadres have no interest in the history of the ANC. They want access to jobs and personal enrichment.'

"Worse than the lack of interest in history, [Ntuli] claimed, is that they will not listen to, or respect senior officials."

Ntuli apparently told the diplomat party members were "mostly focused on jockeying for positions to be decided upon at the 2012 national congress".

He said: "The party isn't even focused on the 2011 elections."

Ntuli, who the diplomat came to regard as an Mbeki loyalist, said the "Zuma government will not come close to delivering" on the party's resolutions.

He said the ANC was concerned that it would lose to the Democratic Alliance in the Tshwane metro during the 2011 local government elections.

"We have big internal problems in Tshwane," he is quoted as saying.

He reportedly attributed the "problems" to "infighting over government positions".

Ntuli said this week that he had not seen the cable.

"I am just surprised, because I never had any meeting with the embassy about those issues," he told City Press.

Bling

On Saturday, Beeld newspaper reported that according to a diplomatic cable published on WikiLeaks, ANC treasurer general Mathews Phosa told US ambassador Donald Gips on December 17 2009 that he was worried about "continuing tension" between the ANC and its alliance partners.

The conversation took place amid a bitter dispute between senior members of the ANC-led alliance.

A few weeks earlier, ANC Youth League president Julius Malema had described SA Communist Party deputy general secretary Jeremy Cronin as a "white Messiah".

This, after Cronin noted that Malema and others only thought of "bling" when they spoke about the nationalisation of mines.

Phosa said even though the "anti-communism" call in the ANC was increasing, the clashes had more to do with personalities than with anything else.

According to the document, Phosa told the diplomat: "Everyone talks about 2012. The league thinks [Gwede] Mantashe's roles as Communist Party chair and secretary general of the ANC [are] in conflict with each other."

'Worse that Polokwane'
Phosa also revealed details of a closed meeting where Malema accused Mantashe of having a conflict.

Phosa said the ANC needed time to cool off, otherwise the 2012 party congress would be "worse than Polokwane".

Phosa said last week that he would not comment on the cable.

"As a lawyer I do not have to authority to comment on documents that I have never seen, and which have been written by a third party."

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/ANC-a-complete-mess-WikiLeaks-20110220

What one might learn from this is debatable, but it certainly is news worthy. For that reason it's surprising that i never read anything about it in the Sowetan (though i might have just missed the article)

10 reasons to vote DA during the 2011 Local Government Election



1. The DA delivers twice as many houses in the City of Cape Town than the ANC were able to when they ran the City. Across all our local governments and in the Western Cape we deliver more, better quality house than any other party.



2. The Gauteng Planning Commission’s Quality of Life Survey ranks the DA-run Midvaal Municipality as the province’s top municipality for quality of life. This year Midvaal's achieved its 8th unqualified audit report in a row. Clean, effective local government.



3. The DA understands what the word "accountability" really means. We fire corrupt politicians and government officials instead of moving them somewhere else.



4. While unemployment increased by 1% in all other provinces in the aftermath of the recession, it decreased by 1% in the Western Cape, driven by Cape Town's healthy economic growth. More than 50000 people move to the Western Cape every year and unemployment is still dropping. Better Government, more jobs!



5. The Democratic Alliance allocates significant resources every year to invest in a year long development programme for inspiring young leaders - the Young Leaders Programme develops tomorrow's great leaders today.



6. The DA-run Western Cape Government became the first provincial government since 1994 to be given a clean audit by the Auditor General of South Africa - and it achieved this after only one year in office.



7. The DA-run City of Cape Town reduced crime in the CBD by 90% and the Violence Prevention through Urban Upgrading programme reduced crime in Khayelitsha by 24%.



8. The Cooperative Governance Department’s 2010 Universal Household Access to Basic Services survey showed that nine in ten residents of the DA-run Cape Town have "universal access" to basic services – a higher proportion than any other metro in the country. On each of the individual service delivery metrics, the DA’s performance stands head and shoulders over that of the ANC-run metros.



9. The DA is the most multi-racial party in South Africa and has a proud history of fighting for liberty through the Apartheid years and in the new South Africa.



10. The DA tables significantly more parliamentary, provincial and council questions than the rest of the opposition parties put together, exposing more dodgy dealings, wasted expenditure and mismanagement than any other party. We table more reports, policy proposals and discussion documents than any other party. DA politicians do the job the public pay them to do!



(Bonus reasons):



11. Helen Zille, now Premier of the Western Cape, won World Mayor of the Year in 2008 for her efforts in leading the turnaround of the City of Cape Town in only 2 years. Helen Zille is a courageous and principled woman who has been fighting for liberty from her younger days as the journalist who uncovered the murder of Steve Biko to today's tough leadership during a difficult political climate.



12. BBBEE deals in the City of Cape Town have increased dramatically since the DA took over the municipality. DA-run municipalities grant tenders using an open-to-the-public tendering system which applies BBBEE legislation as it was intended - to empower a broad base of black entrepreneurs.



13. The DA is a party that delivers for all and prioritises growth and job creation. The DA is more effective in government because DA-run municipalities focus resources government's core functions: basic service delivery, revenue collection, bulk infrastructure development, local economic development.

.

Where blacks are majority DA will never win,black people are not idiots,and just because you don't hear them on Cape Talk or 702 it does not mean they don't know politics.For black people DA is a white party that looks after the interest of whites,whites who think apaartheid was better than mandela's South Africa.

If DA want to be taken seriously in South Africa they must first transform their party,as a black person I will never trust a political party that is 'llily white' that has slogan that says 'fight back'.Yes we need a strong opposition party but DA is making this impossible,the way things stand it works in ANC's favour,it became whites against blacks.

This constant drivel on the DA looking after "whites" interest is a lazy, racist response, usually a person to afraid to tackle the real DA flaws, hanging onto what is easier to believe.

You know and I know it.

One example: doubling housing opportunities, best service delivery, best audit results

Until you and others grow up, learn something, and are willing to debate the real DA issues, the "looking after whites" story will keep making you happy. Ignorance is indeed bliss.

Gauteng toll debacle tests ANC

Feb 22 2011 21:34


Johannesburg - It takes a lot to get communists, unions and businessmen fighting from the same corner, especially in South Africa, but a new system of toll payments for motorways round Johannesburg has done just that.

The anti-toll coalition that cuts across habitual racial and income divides has also put the ruling African National Congress (ANC) on the spot, and could be a test of its willingness to press ahead with unpopular reforms.

With ANC politicians jostling for position ahead of local elections in May, the omens are not good.

In a speech this week Nomvula Mokonyane, premier of Gauteng, the province that includes Johannesburg and Pretoria and accounts for a third of national output, said the local economy could not support tolls of 66c per km.

Business Unity South Africa says the tolls will damage the competitiveness of Africa's biggest economy and could push unemployment even higher than the current 25%.

The Communist Party and the Cosatu union federation - ANC partners in government - have also voiced strong opposition.

Transport Minister Sibusiso Ndebele caved in on Tuesday and suspended the levy, intended to pay for a huge upgrade of the Gauteng road network. "Government reiterates its commitment to fully honouring the terms of the loan agreement for this transaction," he was reported as saying by SAPA news agency.

The national roads agency, Sanral, is adamant that there is no room to cut the tolls, intended to pay for the bulk of the R16.9bn road improvement scheme.

Loan must be repaid

Sanral has paid for the upgrade by borrowing from the capital markets, rather than through central government finance.

The agency says a toll of 80c/km would enable it to pay off the R12bn it owes by 2024, while the published rate of 66c/km would delay the pay-off date to 2028.

If the toll was cut to 40c/km, the revenue would not even service the interest on the loan and the debt would swell to R60bn by 2024, Sanral says.

This would require a government bailout, or a default, and would raise serious questions about the ANC's ability to manage the economy and pay its debts on time.

"They're up against a united front of opposition... " said political analyst Nic Borain. "It's the same test they face on labour market regulation and a whole load of other things."

Especially problematic for the ANC, the former liberation movement, is that the poor black majority will be hardest hit because under apartheid they were forced to live in townships far from the centres of Johannesburg and Pretoria.

Social geography has changed little in the 17 years since white-minority rule ended, and even though the ANC has poured money into improving links between places like Soweto and the main business districts, public transport options are limited.

"The public transport network in the province remains patchy and disconnected," the Mail and Guardian newspaper said in an editorial last week that supported "user pays" taxes but demanded alternatives for the many poor.

"Road pricing is the right policy for South Africa's dysfunctional cities, but it needs vast transport planning and joined-up government," the paper said.

Where blacks are majority DA will never win,black people are not idiots,and just because you don't hear them on Cape Talk or 702 it does not mean they don't know politics.For black people DA is a white party that looks after the interest of whites,whites who think apaartheid was better than mandela's South Africa.

If DA want to be taken seriously in South Africa they must first transform their party,as a black person I will never trust a political party that is 'llily white' that has slogan that says 'fight back'.Yes we need a strong opposition party but DA is making this impossible,the way things stand it works in ANC's favour,it became whites against blacks.

And its those same people who burn tires and throw stones at police 6 months later, year in year out. The logic escapes me :nuts:

^^You're an engineer you wouldn't understand:lol:

and you are the only one laughing at your own dumb comment. Oh forgot, you're on the ANC sheep wagon.

^^lol...

Where blacks are majority DA will never win,black people are not idiots,and just because you don't hear them on Cape Talk or 702 it does not mean they don't know politics.For black people DA is a white party that looks after the interest of whites,whites who think apaartheid was better than mandela's South Africa.

If DA want to be taken seriously in South Africa they must first transform their party,as a black person I will never trust a political party that is 'llily white' that has slogan that says 'fight back'.Yes we need a strong opposition party but DA is making this impossible,the way things stand it works in ANC's favour,it became whites against blacks.
here's proof once more that ANC supporters are a bunch of black racists who cannot see further than skin colour. The ANC is a black party that look out black only interests. It is the exact opposite of what the former NP was. Only difference is, the NP ran a well oiled machine, where the ANC are made up of clueless idiots who are plundering the country with their utter incompetence. But yeah, let those blacks continue voting for them with blindfolds on and be further impoverished!

Went to Council today. Wow its hilarious. ANC don't know how to be an opposition.

Some very good ANC councillors who get drownded out by the rest of the rubbish.

Oh and btw more open air toilets were built in rest of RSA than in CT.

I'm not sure what's worse. Pierre Uys's rebuttal to Zille or today's fun.

Even the ANC laughts at Sotashe.

here's proof once more that ANC supporters are a bunch of black racists who cannot see further than skin colour. The ANC is a black party that look out black only interests. It is the exact opposite of what the former NP was. Only difference is, the NP ran a well oiled machine, where the ANC are made up of clueless idiots who are plundering the country with their utter incompetence. But yeah, let those blacks continue voting for them with blindfolds on and be further impoverished!

come on let it all out. that's what I love about bigots they always expose themselves eventually. It's always good to see past the liberal facade and see the real agenda of the DA...

^^ What is the real agenda of the DA? What is the real agenda of the ANC?

Enlighten us...

come on let it all out. that's what I love about bigots they always expose themselves eventually. It's always good to see past the liberal facade and see the real agenda of the DA...

who the hell gives a shit if the DA is liberal or right wing or left wing or east wing.

They double housing opportunities each year compared to the ANC.

Fuck the facade, look at the facts.

End of the road for you Nostra. I have sevarl ANC contacts and friends and family members and colleagues and none of them are as you thick as you are.

It actually has nothing to do with the ANC. Just plain old thick.

You actually give the ANC a worse name than it already has.

Ignore list for you. I suggest nobody else responds to Nostra.

here's proof once more that ANC supporters are a bunch of black racists who cannot see further than skin colour.

An intellectually incapable statement which to me seem like you just mussitating. You have noticed the raciality of Thothobolo's utterings but tend blind eye on your own which I have higlighted above. ANC is a multiracial party which serves the interests of South Africans even thought it fails in some instances.



The ANC is a black party that look out black only interests.
That's a very contradictory statement, I guess your Cape Repulic ideology which is a mere nympholepsy is limiting your thinking capacity. Have you ever forgotten about service delivery protests? Did you see any other race protesting about those, except the same black people who are continuing to suffer?

It is the exact opposite of what the former NP was. Only difference is, the NP ran a well oiled machine, where the ANC are made up of clueless idiots who are plundering the country with their utter incompetence.

True hey...and that's the same leadership that drove South Africa to a non-racial society without bloodbath, the same leadership that grew the economy by more than 4% over the past couple of years, the same idiots who are continuing to play a role towards peace in Africa...i guess the most intelligent leaders we can get are the ones who are pusing for the Cape Republic...

But yeah, let those blacks continue voting for them with blindfolds on and be further impoverished!
Hobbledehoy, you need to be schooled...

Guys.

If you are going to make statements like "those blacks" I will report you for racism and you will be gone faster than bruinmense's 4th account.

^^ People, debate the politics, not the racialism and if you need to refer to a certain one of South Africa's ethnic groupings, do it with respect and in a matter-of-fact, not condescending manner.

briker that comment of yours was utter racism and has no place in society . you sound just like the VF whites and malema blacks only difference your coloured. but a sad thing is this is just what the anc is driving us back to through their racialism . it acsually broke my heart lastnight when i had to watch black and coloured people yelling at each other ' jou dronk h.....' and ' jou dom k......' after they argued about the anc's EE plans in spar. i really hope the anc scraps that proposed ammendment quickly and decisively . and screw the cape party , i know their leaders and they are pathetic.

^^ Problem with this whole thing, is it's polarising South African society and I'm really pissed off about it. I cannot handle watching irresponsible statements, inflamed rhetoric and divisive legislation tear the fabric of racial harmony apart.

Increasingly though, I'm seeing the most racially inflammatory statements coming from the ANCYL, Veterans Association and ministers like Nzimande and Mfekheto and the divisive legislation coming from the ruling parties' departments.

It's becoming so bad these days, it makes the FF+ look like angels and the AWB look like their opposite sides of the same coin! :ohno:

But also, those within other political affiliations, do not be drawn into this racial downward spiral... keep the high-ground and do not fall into this trap. When a political party wants to maintain a grip on power but see it slipping away, they become increasingly radical to polarise the country (siding with the majority to swell votes); don't allow them to win the psychological war they're starting to mount. Stay moderate, kind and respectful (the type of person Tutu and Mandela would want you to be).

An intellectually incapable statement which to me seem like you just mussitating. You have noticed the raciality of Thothobolo's utterings but tend blind eye on your own which I have higlighted above. ANC is a multiracial party which serves the interests of South Africans even thought it fails in some instances.




That's a very contradictory statement, I guess your Cape Repulic ideology which is a mere nympholepsy is limiting your thinking capacity. Have you ever forgotten about service delivery protests? Did you see any other race protesting about those, except the same black people who are continuing to suffer?


True hey...and that's the same leadership that drove South Africa to a non-racial society without bloodbath, the same leadership that grew the economy by more than 4% over the past couple of years, the same idiots who are continuing to play a role towards peace in Africa...i guess the most intelligent leaders we can get are the ones who are pusing for the Cape Republic...


Hobbledehoy, you need to be schooled...

^^Pule, I'm actually glad Briker finally let loose because that's what bigots always do when they can't argue based on facts. They rely on lies, insults, racial epithets and other unsavoury behaviour. I am wary to say that this is representative of the typical DA supporter but in my eyes it definitely puts credence to my belief that at it's core the DA still habour such 'tendencies'. Look at how they swear, look at how they hurl racial invective at their fellow South Africans, by the way this is very mild compared to comments habitually made by their brother-in-arms on other news sites, (news24, etc).

Look a person like Mo, he thinks he can swear his way to the truth, he thinks using foul language will intimidate me, what a shame. He says he will ignore me like I give a flying eff, go right ahead make my day. you don't own ish round here boy.

There must be something in the water in Cape Town that makes some of the ppl there so mean-spirited and rude. Thanks Briker again for revealing your true colours, you sound like an uneducated buffoon...

Funny thing about people about like Nostra is that they are so ANC obsessed that they don't even know how to debate the good points of the ANC e.g. road maintenance fund, economy, Sexwale as housing minister, improved Health department, and others good changes.

^^ Problem with this whole thing, is it's polarising South African society and I'm really pissed off about it. I cannot handle watching irresponsible statements, inflamed rhetoric and divisive legislation tear the fabric of racial harmony apart.

Increasingly though, I'm seeing the most racially inflammatory statements coming from the ANCYL, Veterans Association and ministers like Nzimande and Mfekheto and the divisive legislation coming from the ruling parties' departments.

It's becoming so bad these days, it makes the FF+ look like angels and the AWB look like their opposite sides of the same coin! :ohno:

But also, those within other political affiliations, do not be drawn into this racial downward spiral... keep the high-ground and do not fall into this trap. When a political party wants to maintain a grip on power but see it slipping away, they become increasingly radical to polarise the country (siding with the majority to swell votes); don't allow them to win the psychological war they're starting to mount. Stay moderate, kind and respectful (the type of person Tutu and Mandela would want you to be).

How can it stop when your party thrives on this kind of division? Always subtly stoking racial tensions between coloureds and blacks. The DA cannot help itself it is lurching to the far right in order to consolidate its minority dominance, it's no longer in control, events are forcing its hand. The appointment of Fransman was the catalyst, they're spooked that the stick they've always used to beat the ANC with (that it wants to impose a black majority on the W.Cape) is looking increasingly ineffective.

Why are you urging restraint on all of us when it's your fellow DA member who is the only bigot on this thread, call him out. Call Mo out for his ad hominem attacks. Why are you a coward??

Another long awaited but EXCELLENT decision by the ANC

City poised to control trains, buses

February 24 2011 at 11:10am

http://www.capeargus.co.za/polopoly_fs/ca-web-trains-1.1031659%21/image/2124896854.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_300/2124896854.jpg INLSA
A Metrorail train leaves Cape Town station.

ESTHER LEWIS, BRONWYNNE JOOSTE and MURRAY WILLIAMS
Staff Reporters



THE City of Cape Town is poised to take over regulatory power of bus and train operations in the Mother City.
The move, announced in Finance Minister Pravin Gordhan’s Budget speech yesterday, will tie in with the city’s vision of a single, united public transport service, on which commuters will be able to use a single ticket.
Yesterday, Gordhan announced the transfer of subsidies for bus and commuter rail services to municipalities to enable them to co-ordinate public transport.
Provincial transport spokes-man Solly Malatsi said his department was currently responsible for assigning subsidies it received as part of its budget from the national government to bus operator Golden Arrow. The department was also responsible for issuing operating licences to public transport entities, he said.
However, mayoral committee (Mayco) member for transport Elizabeth Thompson said that by next June, the city should be ready to take over these two functions from the province.
She said the National Land Transport Act, promulgated in 2009, made provisions for this.
Gordhan said yesterday: “The public transport function, including the management of rail, has been delegated by Minister (S’bu) Ndebele to metropolitan municipalities in terms of the National Land Transport Act.
“An efficient and cost-effective public transport system is crucial because the majority of our people live too far from where job opportunities are,” Gordhan said.

Thompson said a land transport enforcement unit and a municipal transport fund was being established.
The city had advertised for a service provider to ensure all of the logistics were in place. A business plan was being prepared and would be presented to the council.



Thompson said Golden Arrow and Metrorail would be accountable to the city, according to terms of the contract.
“They will have to account before the money is paid,” said Thompson.



City spokeswoman Kylie Hatton said the council envisioned a “universal” public transport service.
This would include integrating all bus, minibus and train services into one efficient mega-service, featuring common timetables and easy switching between transport forms.
Hatton said: “The city has already awarded the tender for the ‘smart-card’ ticketing system. It is a 12-year-old contract and it will be introduced on our West Coast bus service.
“As you get to the machine, you ‘tap in’ and later ‘tap out’ on machines which read the electronic signature of travellers’ tickets.
“In the long term it will help us to get more information about passenger movement, which will allow us to improve the service.”
Hatton said yesterday’s announcement would be felt by Capetonians only if a new regulatory framework was put in place, which would govern all public transport in the city.



“The key issue with that is ensuring that the transport authority is adequately funded and resourced. This will enable this body to integrate the different services and to fairly and equally fund the different transport modes.



“It gives the city, as a whole, better control and input into the different services,” Hatton said.
City transport director Maddie Mazaza said the timeframes proposed for the takeover of the rail function were set for 2014.
The rail subsidies are paid from the national transport department to Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa (Prasa), which then distributes them to Metrorail.
In 2012, the city would start thrashing out the details of the rail plan, she said.



As was the case with the bus systems, processes and logistics should be put into place in 2012/13. By 2013/14 it should be operational, Mazaza said.



“At the moment, Prasa is not accountable. We will have more say. Standards of practice w
ill be drawn up, and (Prasa) will have to report to council.”
She added if the service was below standard the service provider could be penalised.



Mazaza described the current rail model as haphazard, and said this would have to be improved.
While the National Land Transport Act provided the framework for municipalities to take over certain functions, it did not leave much room for service providers to object, she said.
A steering committee – which included representatives from the city, provincial and national transport departments, service pro-viders and the business sector – would be established.
The Cape Town Regional Chamber of Commerce and Industry has been particularly critical of Metrorail, stating that train delays were leading to costly business disruptions.
Chairman Michael Bagraim said once control was handed to the city, there would be a higher degree of accountability.
Earlier this month, the chamber slammed Metrorail after it withdrew 15 trains from service because of vandalism.
Bagraim said a locally controlled public transport system would ensure a more reliable service.

Why are you urging restraint on all of us when it's your fellow DA member who is the only bigot on this thread, call him out. Call Mo out for his ad hominem attacks. Why are you a coward??

Mo slammed Briker... you clearly don't read.

Again, you don't read, my post directed at Briker: "People, debate the politics, not the racialism and if you need to refer to a certain one of South Africa's ethnic groupings, do it with respect and in a matter-of-fact, not condescending manner."

Stop being such a troll.

Hypocritical: You call me a coward here, and tell me to "shut up" in the Cape thread, yet you say I should call out their ad hominem attacks... rich dude... really rich!

FYI: Briker supports the Cape Party.

Mo slammed Briker... you clearly don't read.

Again, you don't read, my post directed at Briker: "People, debate the politics, not the racialism and if you need to refer to a certain one of South Africa's ethnic groupings, do it with respect and in a matter-of-fact, not condescending manner."

Stop being such a troll.

Please put him on your ignore list because the rest of us see his posts when you quote him.

More good ANC thinking and work by Sexwale.

Going up, flat out (http://www.fm.co.za/Article.aspx?id=135461)

Carol Paton
Thursday, 24 Feb 2011


Tokyo Sexwale says he wants low-cost housing to go “high-rise” and is looking for new ways to do it

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After 16 years of building matchbox houses, human settlements minister Tokyo Sexwale says government is going “high-rise” and has its sights on 200 inner-city buildings, which can be converted into low-cost housing for rent.
As part of his performance contract with President Jacob Zuma, Sexwale is expected to deliver 80000 units of rental stock over his five-year term and to upgrade 400000 dwellings in informal settlements. But it is in high-density apartment and office blocks — owned privately and run along commercial lines — where Sexwale believes the potential lies to meet housing demand.
Since 1994 government has built around 2m stand-alone houses, of which ownership was transferred free to beneficiaries. It has also, since 2004, introduced a social housing model, which has used the housing subsidy (now set at R84000/unit) to partly finance the construction of medium-density apartment blocks. Social housing companies, which are generally not-for-profit entities, finance the rest and collect rentals, usually in the region of R1000-R2000/month, to recover costs and do maintenance.
While social housing is growing — about 5000 units have been built since the new policy and another 50000 were created through an earlier financing mechanism — Sexwale is aiming to accelerate housing provision. He wants to entice the private sector into a purely commercial model which would be geared towards serving the bottom end of the market.
“We are going high-rise. We have already identified 85 buildings that we think are suitable for housing in the inner city areas. Our target is 200 nationally,” said Sexwale, speaking off the cuff after Zuma’s state of the nation address on February 10 about his plans for the coming year.
This would include buildings in Johannesburg, Durban, Tshwane, Port Elizabeth and East London.
The key vehicle for stimulating the market will be the National Housing Finance Corp (NHFC), the financing arm of the department of human settlements. It has already been active in lending about R4bn to inner-city entrepreneurs and social housing companies in Johannesburg.
NHFC CE Samson Moraba says that for many years, during which commercial banks “red-lined” the Johannesburg inner city, the corporation was the only financial institution lending in the area.
“But we have created confidence in the market and the commercial banks are showing signs that they want to come back. To ramp up to the levels requested by the minister, we will need the participation of all the banks.”
He says the thrust is to try to bring people back into the city. The exit of businesses from most city centres has created opportunity for the conversion of office accommodation to residential.
“The minister has asked us to roll out to all cities. So far, we have identified 85 buildings that can be refurbished.”
Moraba says the idea is to “incentivise rental housing entrepreneurs to have an interest in wanting to manage larger blocks”.
But while government will, through the NHFC, provide finance that might not otherwise be available to developers, Moraba says he believes it is advisable that the buildings be viewed as private. All the normal rules would apply to collection of rents, rather than being seen by tenants as government buildings.
“The notion of a state-owned building is not the right notion. The expectation is that people will be able to pay for these on their own,” Moraba says.
Private rentals target a slightly better-off individual than does social housing, with a range of between R1500 and R2800 , depending on the size of the unit.
While rental repayment rates in some social housing developments have been disastrous — at the flagship N2 Gateway project in Cape Town, payment levels were at one stage only 5% — other buildings have had greater success.
The chair of the social housing regulator agency, Zohra Ebrahim, says in many other buildings repayments are 95%.
Ebrahim says government’s shift to rental makes sense. While after 1994 it was important to provide title deeds to people who had been excluded from ownership by apartheid , the question had to be asked whether in the future government would continue to give everyone a stand-alone house.
The fact that most townships have a thriving rental sector — many households rent out backyard shacks for as much as R800/month — showed that the rental model, while not suitable for the indigent, could work , she says.
Shifting to high density will also help solve some of the problems that have arisen in the mass provision of stand- alone houses. Quality has been one , with the replacement of substandard houses built over the years set to cost government R58bn . Lately, Sexwale has pointed out that the lack of bulk infrastructure is hampering greenfields developments. In Durban, for instance, a 35000-unit development is on hold as there is no available water or electricity and in Port Alfred a 5000-unit development has temporarily been scaled down to 500 because of unavailability of water.
Some problems will be solved by expanding affordable private rental, but new ones will arise. Given the large numbers of foreign nationals in the cities, a tricky issue will be whether foreigners would qualify for such housing or whether it should be reserved for South Africans only.
Moraba says: “It’s a consideration because you have to ask yourself what you’re trying to create.



“We don’t use it as a criterion now but we want to reflect on it.”
Social housing, on the other hand, which is built using government subsidies, is restricted to South Africans only. The income threshold to qualify for a housing subsidy is R3500/month.
Ebrahim says it’s reasonable to insist that private rental accommodation, which has been funded by a government financial institution, should be there to assist South Africans.

Mo slammed Briker... you clearly don't read.

Again, you don't read, my post directed at Briker: "People, debate the politics, not the racialism and if you need to refer to a certain one of South Africa's ethnic groupings, do it with respect and in a matter-of-fact, not condescending manner."

Stop being such a troll.

Hypocritical: You call me a coward here, and tell me to "shut up" in the Cape thread, yet you say I should call out their ad hominem attacks... rich dude... really rich!

FYI: Briker supports the Cape Party.

That's a slap on the wrist. Call him out like you called out Bruinmense earlier, you were pretty emphatic in your criticism then, why so reticent now?

RE: me telling you to shut up, it's a figure of speech to say put up or shut up. However it did come across offensively so I'll withdraw that statement cos I don't want it to detract my argument...

That's a slap on the wrist. Call him out like you called out Bruinmense earlier, you were pretty emphatic in your criticism then, why so reticent now?

RE: me telling you to shut up, it's a figure of speech to say put up or shut up. However it did come across offensively so I'll withdraw that statement cos I don't want it to detract my argument...

Because Bruinmense was constant and openly admitted racism. Briker made an isolated inflammatory comment, so he does not deserve the same harsh criticism rather a reminder to treat other ethnicities with respect.

its funny that anc hanskakies on here brand the coloured and white right wing as DA whilst they brand the DA as leftist traitors of white and coloured people . when is it going to sink into your thick heads that the DA is neither leftist or a enclave for rightwing racists but a open opportunity party which main aim is to uphold the constitution and thus uplift the people through sound enabling clean government . go check out the DA youth league , the future of the DA and our first DA president of the country . Viva DA :)

Wow people this looks likes it's getting out of hand. I suggest we all cool it and wait for the election results to come through. I think some of the ANC supporters will be dissapointed.

^^If indeed we do badly, I'll gladly accept the loss, however I do think the possibility is quite remote. This is my last word on the matter. Cheers

I think nationally the ANC will be dissapointed, not just in Joburg. But let's see

There must be something in the water in Cape Town that makes some of the ppl there so mean-spirited and rude. Thanks Briker again for revealing your true colours, you sound like an uneducated buffoon...

I dont give a fuck what you think about me :bash: What makes people 'mean-spirited and rude' in CT is that the racist ANC party is trying to forcefully remove the people born and bred in the WC. BULLSHIT!!
You and that other idiot on here, like your party, are stirring the racial pot. So don't tell me about true colours. You know no decency.

An intellectually incapable statement which to me seem like you just mussitating. You have noticed the raciality of Thothobolo's utterings but tend blind eye on your own which I have higlighted above. ANC is a multiracial party which serves the interests of South Africans even thought it fails in some instances.




That's a very contradictory statement, I guess your Cape Repulic ideology which is a mere nympholepsy is limiting your thinking capacity. Have you ever forgotten about service delivery protests? Did you see any other race protesting about those, except the same black people who are continuing to suffer?


True hey...and that's the same leadership that drove South Africa to a non-racial society without bloodbath, the same leadership that grew the economy by more than 4% over the past couple of years, the same idiots who are continuing to play a role towards peace in Africa...i guess the most intelligent leaders we can get are the ones who are pusing for the Cape Republic...


Hobbledehoy, you need to be schooled...

Dont you get personal. I respected you for a long time. For your info, I probably have more education than you. You are a result of affirmative action, dont forget.
You are stupid enough to believe that SA is a non-racial society and that the ANC care about minority issues. The ANC is the main driving force of racial polarization today. The days of Mandela are long gone.
And yes, an independent Western Cape, where the people belonging to the Western Cape can feel secure, is a much better option.

Briker cool down !

You know, I have had it it with these fucking undercovered racist shits telling me its all okay while driving me and my people to the the ground. South Africa is NOT all right and never will be with the bigots in office!

Let me tell you something about myself: When I went up to Joburg 2 years ago for job interviews, I was told to my face that it is impossible for a 'Cape coloured to get a job here in Gauteng'. Another told me that I was over qualified. This I had to hear from a country in need of skilled people. I was unemployed for 5 months and had no choice but to leave the country. So forgive me if people over there talk the shit that they do. For the record: I do not apologise when I get threatened based on my race.

*from news reader
The vast majority of ordinary South African’s, regardless of race, colour or creed, share the same vision for this wonderful country, a country where we have equality of opportunity, and where poverty and crime do not blight the landscape. It is only when we start to talk about how we might actually achieve this that the depths of our differences really manifest themselves.

We are then split into two camps, the pragmatists and the idealists, and both our current situation, and the scars inflicted upon us by the past, will, amongst other factors, influence into which we fall.
I did not grow up in this land, am not scarred by its past, and am very much a pragmatist by nature, which means I may see things very differently from many others, and had my experiences been different.

Where I find the ANC so utterly frustrating, setting aside their hypocrisy, their nepotism, their incompetence and corruption (because all governments, in all countries are guilty of this, albeit, often to a lesser degree), is that their policies are doomed to failure, and can never achieve that which they desire, that which we all desire, because they cannot put the future ahead of the past. This is especially sad as they will be forever defined by a truly great man who, in the greatest of adversities, did exactly that.

South Africa has but one hope to solve its problems, and that is full employment. Anything else is, and always will be, window dressing. I understand the desire to focus on re-distribution, on economic empowerment, on land reform, but ultimately they can never bring equality. When all South Africans earn a decent wage, they will sort out equality for themselves.

As employment numbers increase, crime will reduce, tax revenue will grow, further empowering the government to do more and more to perpetuate the cycle.

To create full employment, we need to create any and every job possible, regardless of the pay or status. We need to remove barriers to employment, including the minimum wage; we need to encourage investment, including offering incentives, and reducing bureaucracy.

I have personal experience as a foreign investor in this country, and it is shockingly difficult to come here and create jobs, with Home Affairs seemingly doing everything in their power to prevent you from coming. We need to stop the uncontrolled inflow of illegal immigrants, who prevent our people from taking up those jobs we do have, whilst actively promoting the inflow of skilled migrants who actually create employment.

Once we have full employment, it will create competition amongst employers; demand for labour will drive up wages through demand and supply, which is why the minimum wage is irrelevant. This will be a painful process, but it is our only hope.

If only our government could look to the future, and create a society which we can all belong to and be proud of.

You know, I have had it it with these fucking undercovered racist shits telling me its all okay while driving me and my people to the the ground. South Africa is NOT all right and never will be with the bigots in office!

Let me tell you something about myself: When I went up to Joburg 2 years ago for job interviews, I was told to my face that it is impossible for a 'Cape coloured to get a job here in Gauteng'. Another told me that I was over qualified. This I had to hear from a country in need of skilled people. I was unemployed for 5 months and had no choice but to leave the country. So forgive me if people over there talk the shit that they do. For the record: I do not apologise when I get threatened based on my race.

Coloureds make up 6% of Joburg's population which is a sizable amount. 91% of all the unemployed people in the city are black. How can someone be over qualified for a job, your just bosting yourself. And you blame it on you being coloured as the scapegoat for you not getting the job. Coloureds are light skin people all over the world light skinned people are favoured towards dark skinned and now you coming up with this bullshyt.

And why are you trying to get a job in ANC black majority Gauteng if you hate it so much. What about the utopian coloured majority Northern and Western Cape!!? Yet you travel to China, probably because your education skills was the only issue to begin with.

And why are you trying to get a job in ANC black majority Gauteng if you hate it so much. What about the utopian coloured majority Northern and Western Cape!!?

What a stupidly stupid comment. So American Democrats shouldn't (or aren't allowed ) to look for work in a Republican stronghold? That goes against the whole point of democracy. And who in their right mind would want to work in the Northern Cape over Gauteng? :nuts:

^^ Guys, this is straying further off topic.

The mod is conspicuous by his silence...

You know, I have had it it with these fucking undercovered racist shits telling me its all okay while driving me and my people to the the ground. South Africa is NOT all right and never will be with the bigots in office!

Let me tell you something about myself: When I went up to Joburg 2 years ago for job interviews, I was told to my face that it is impossible for a 'Cape coloured to get a job here in Gauteng'. Another told me that I was over qualified. This I had to hear from a country in need of skilled people. I was unemployed for 5 months and had no choice but to leave the country. So forgive me if people over there talk the shit that they do. For the record: I do not apologise when I get threatened based on my race.


Listen hater, you're talking out of your a$$, right here in my work place there are plenty of so-called 'Cape Coloureds', none of them suffering from the apparent bias against them. You're a bitter loser, I don't care if you say I'm playing the race card but it's clear that you have a problem with black South Africans. Guess what we don't care, while you keep on hating and getting consumed with bitterness and running around teaching English (or whatever else pathetic pursuits) in foreign climes, we right here at home busy making more money than you'll ever make in your sorry-ass life. Deal with it. And last thing, keep dreaming but you not getting the W.Cape and if you try we'll fark you up...

What do you know about Jozi? Whatchu know about matte-black X6's with black shoes on? You're behind mayne and you won't catch up...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5060/5484724471_a4ecdc96fa.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5293/5484721957_dfb213ea01.jpg

Listen hater, you're talking out of your a$$, right here in my work place there are plenty of so-called 'Cape Coloureds', none of them suffering from the apparent bias against them. You're a bitter loser, I don't care if you say I'm playing the race card but it's clear that you have a problem with black South Africans. Guess what we don't care, while you keep on hating and getting consumed with bitterness and running around teaching English (or whatever else pathetic pursuits) in foreign climes, we right here at home busy making more money than you'll ever make in your sorry-ass life. Deal with it. And last thing, keep dreaming but you not getting the W.Cape and if you try we'll fark you up...

What do you know about Jozi? Whatchu know about matte-black X6's with black shoes on? You're behind mayne and you won't catch up...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5060/5484724471_a4ecdc96fa.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5293/5484721957_dfb213ea01.jpg

My good god you are kommin verby :lol: My dad could buy that car cash ( And me in about 5 years time ) but he'd rather invest it in new businesses and property ( He grew up poor had no education after matric and no inheritance from his poor parents ) Yet he now has assets of more than R13 million and has never owned anything smarter than a Toyota fortuner . Life isnt about smart cars and expensive clothes .........

If you were white and a afrikaner I would say your from brakpan....

And last thing, keep dreaming but you not getting the W.Cape and if you try we'll fark you up...

my goodness, is that, what a threat? You are right, the mod's are strangely silent

My good god you are kommin verby :lol: My dad could buy that car cash ( And me in about 5 years time ) but he'd rather invest it in new businesses and property ( He grew up poor had no education after matric and no inheritance from his poor parents ) Yet he now has assets of more than R13 million and has never owned anything smarter than a Toyota fortuner . Life isnt about smart cars and expensive clothes .........

So what my dad could sell about 100 head of Nguni and buy it cash now as well. You aint the only one with money. Just because your dad likes the frugal life doesn't mean the rest of us want to toddling along in Corrolas, screw that, I'm going to ball till I fall. Windows tinted, lazy seat and big fat shoes on my steed, that's how I roll..

ps: By the way that's not my ride, that's Doc Khumalo's transie...

my goodness, is that, what a threat? You are right, the mod's are strangely silent

No, its the logical unfolding of events if Briker and his loonies ever have the gumption to declare the secession of the W.Cape...

When you feel the need to prove your wealth, well...iets is n' bietjie fishie.

So what my dad could sell about 100 head of Nguni and buy it cash now as well. You aint the only one with money. Just because your dad likes the frugal life doesn't mean the rest of us want to toddling along in Corrolas, screw that, I'm going to ball till I fall. Windows tinted, lazy seat and big fat shoes on my steed, that's how I roll..

ps: By the way that's not my ride, that's Doc Khumalo's transie...

This is just an opinion, but i found it a very interesting read, which explains your sentiments to a large extent:
http://www.news24.com/Columnists/Khaya-Dlanga/The-Paradox-of-South-African-Youth-20110222

You are right of course, i hate generalizing but i believe it not without grounds in this context, the young especially black population is driven by mostly greed and lust for money and power. Ironic since they mostly support a party which is openly in alliance with a communist party. But then it's understandable as their government also gives them favorable positions in any company (thanks to BEE) and truck loads of money from tenders (though only to the benefit of a few). I'm not saying that BEE causes ineptness, but it does cast a shadow over natural ambition/talent. How easy is it to overlook a few dodgy government transactions or a pothole or two in exchange for a personal profit, even if it as at the expense of others?

This explains your vehement opposition to the DA. They aren't going to do anything for You personally. You are not poor, you don't need help, they will use your tax money to help the poor (this has been proven countless times on this forum, with even you acquiescing in some instances). THEY will not enrich you, but instead expect you to enrich yourself with your obvious ambition.

You claim you oppose them because .. what was it that your youth leader said a while back about Zille, that she is a "racist little girl". Because they are racist. I'm sure that deep down even you can identify this as canard. Our fight is no longer for freedom, it's for money. The ANC fights for it's cronies. The DA counters this by fighting for morality. The ANC proposes debilitating laws to redistribute the countries wealth to both themselves and the poor (through grants etc). The DA proposes creating wealth and uplifting the poor. Which province's public schools do best? Which hospitals perform best (or at all)? Yet you fight the DA and the western cape as hard as you can. What are you protecting in your fight?

Am i wrong? Please don't now come and blame apartheid, you where, what, 8,9 when that ended? Don't say "but they did it then so we can do it now". Don't blame colonialism as even you must realize where Africa would have been now had it never had contact with the west. We now control the entire country. Don't now break it down into little bits to put in your pocket! Don't claim it now for yourself alone. Or is the call of money too loud for you to hear anything else, like our youth president? "Look at what freedom can buy. A BMW"