Why is it that, so it seems, the two go hand in hand?
Was it only money that contributed to the 'look the frig at me' factor when these things were being designed?

...just want to hear architecturally minded people's thoughts on this early 90s phenomenon.

And to help you ponder, the showcase by uewepuep:

http://melbournephotos.net/pics/2004-08-23%20Melbourne%20-%20Rialto%20Observation%20Deck/IMG_4066.jpg

http://melbournephotos.net/pics/2004-08-23%20Melbourne%20-%20Rialto%20Observation%20Deck/IMG_4065.jpg

http://melbournephotos.net/pics/2004-07-15%20Melbourne%20-%20Eastern%20CBD/IMG_3875.jpg

http://melbournephotos.net/pics/2004-07-15%20Melbourne%20-%20Eastern%20CBD/IMG_3912.jpg

http://melbournephotos.net/pics/2004-08-27%20Melbourne%20-%20City%20from%20the%20southern%20beaches/IMG_0130.jpg

And finally, I only really have a 'pie in the sky' definition of post-modernism in my head (quite vague and I assume all of the above are classified as post-modern) but is anyone able to give a 'textbook' definition at all?

cheers

Pimp my photos good :)

post modern is basically modernism with more detail. tru Moderist structures are usually deviod of detail and finish(ie plain) in there facades, there are built to serve their purpose and thats about it. but post modern has added the detail to make it a more pleasant structure to look at. 120C, and 101C are very much examples of post modern structures.

I guess thats my $0.02 worth in laymans terms.

Cheers

Dean - Melbourne

testuser aka brizer would also give a nice summary.

To my understanding, it was a movement by certain architects to get away from the simpler modernist designs (re Dean's input). Those modern designs having often been washed with cheaper materials and space economisation put into play and all instigated by economic rationalisation, during the 50s, 60s & 70s must have harnessed the movement.

There is a broader meaning of post-modernism but in scraper architecture it actually became prevalent in the U.S. in the latter part of the 70s.

In Melbourne's case, I guess architects saw it as a city full of romantic gestures in its classic architecture therefore a "prime target" or "ripe for the pickin'".

I still feel the ANZ Bank HQ is the best example is Oz (whether you personally like it or not). The architects Peddle Thorp Melb. had "vision" with that one integrating it with the older Neo-goth structures @ its base.

Post-Modernism is not "modernism with more detail." And Modernism has plenty of detail. Look at Mies' corners, Wright's windows, Corb's surfaces, Kahn's staircases.

Post-modernism was an attempt (failed) to reintroduce the monumental sequence of space and materials associted with the Beaux-Arts ideal of France and the US in the late 19th and early 20th century.

By the way, the buildings in this thread blow. But don't feel to bad. All postmodern buildings blow. It's part of their "schtick."

Post-Modernism is not "modernism with more detail." And Modernism has plenty of detail. Look at Mies' corners, Wright's windows, Corb's surfaces, Kahn's staircases.

Post-modernism was an attempt (failed) to reintroduce the monumental sequence of space and materials associted with the Beaux-Arts ideal of France and the US in the late 19th and early 20th century.

By the way, the buildings in this thread blow. But don't feel to bad. All postmodern buildings blow. It's part of their "schtick."

:) The shit-fit about to follow will be remembered through the ages.

Honestly Flatiron. it needs to said over and over .... your're a dick.. no question. U like to make yourself sound all knowing and learned but ur really just a moron from nowhere in particluar.

Post modernism came about as a direct response to modernism's lack of regard for detail & history etc. Post moderist structures brought back the idea that a building shoudnt only be functional structure.

Cheers

Dean - Melbourne

:) The shit-fit about to follow will be remembered through the ages.
classic. nuff said.

@ Flatiron :| You really are a dumb-cluck...This thing looks as if it was constructed out of wooden nursery blocks.This thing as you so bluntly put it, is a work of art IMO. Peddle Thorp had a vision and they only do work of the best quality.

I still feel the ANZ Bank HQ is the best example is Oz (whether you personally like it or not). The architects Peddle Thorp Melb. had "vision" with that one integrating it with the older Neo-goth structures @ its base.

http://www.sayhey.co.uk/invboard/html/emoticons/wub.gif

Courtesy of walkingmelbourne.com:

http://www.walkingmelbourne.com/images/stockex3.jpg

C/- Peddle Thorp:

http://www.pta.com.au/ptaweb/Anz1pp.gif

and skyscraperphotos.com

http://skyscraperphotos.com/cit/dme01/b/izme129.jpg

"U (sic) like to make yourself sound all knowing and learned but ur really just a moron from nowhere in particluar(sic)."

I am from New York City. Is that nowhere in particular? And note that I don't use sub-moronic text-speak like "U" for "you." What are you, twelve?

"Post modernism came about as a direct response to modernism's lack of regard for detail & history etc. Post moderist structures brought back the idea that a building shoudnt only be functional structure."

This is so stupid and one-sided an argument as not to be worth my refuting it. May I suggest any Australian posters on this site who already don't know better simply look up "Michael Sorkin," "Charles Moore," "Albert Speer," "Louis Sullivan," "Edward Durell Stone," and "Alfred Loos." Functionalism is to Modernism as Vanilla is to Ice Cream--intrinsic and yet hardly the only flavor.

Grow up, would you?

Muse, I would appreciate not being quoted from another thread entirely. But, yes, the thing, as I put it, does indeed look like it was constructed from nursery blocks. And by an utter asswipe. You want Gothic, do Gothic. You want Neo-Classical, do Neo-Classical. I have nothing against the Woolworth Building or Carnegie Hall. But don't hand me this tract-home aesthetic bullshit and tell me it's a masterpiece. Because it bloody isn't.

You're sprouting 12 y.o. skyscrapercity cliches yourself. In fact I do think you're talking to yourself, externalising. You're not the only one who (thinks in your case) knows about architecture....and your arrogance is something else!!

Go away! You haven't even addressed the "theme" of the thread.

lol.

Wow, you're from new york. I fucking bow before thee.

Do you agree with Dean that it's nowhere in particular then? I'm not trying to pull rank--but I grew up looking at the development of modernism in a very close way, much the way someone form Berlin or Brazilia might. I studied modern architecture in college and at a post-grad level in NYC, and at a world-known school, I might add.

Muse, I didn't mean to bark at you--but I DID address the theme of the thread as I understood it:

"Post-modernism was an attempt (failed) to reintroduce the monumental sequence of space and materials associated with the Beaux-Arts ideal of France and the US in the late 19th and early 20th century."

But don't take my word for it. Read Moore, Sorkin, Goldberger, etc., etc.

PS--anyone who doens't think that Klimpt, Art Nouveau, the Moscow Metro, Sullivan's banks, the Pasadena School, Albert Dow, Lloyd Wright (Wright's son), Saarinen (sr. and jr.), William Wurster, Eames furniture, Yamasaki's work in Detroit and New York, the Op Art school and Warhol weren't a. Modernism or b. about detail, is, well.....just such a genius, I can't believe it.

Its completely a matter of personal taste.
You cant just say its crap.

Some people really like it. Ie me.

Okay...

But I, myself, dislike it because it's a style that has roots in an extremely reactionary form of society. It is a Reagen-era display of gross weath and has none of the delicacy I associate with the early 20th century buildings it rips off.

Fair enough?

Everything is cool Flatiron, no worries. What did you think of Melbourne and its post-modernism when you visited there?

I agree that the Woolworth Building is great. When I stayed in N.Y.C. I used to make detours just to see it up-close 'n personal. Even went into the lobby area a few times. I do the same thing when I visit Melbourne ie to see the scraper in question and study its every detail.

BTW I suggest to anyone to read anything that Prof. Charles Jencks has written. He's a comprehensivist which Flatiron is elluding to. Jencks also seems very, very interested in Melbourne.

"U (sic) like to make yourself sound all knowing and learned but ur really just a moron from nowhere in particluar(sic)."

I am from New York City. Is that nowhere in particular? And note that I don't use sub-moronic text-speak like "U" for "you." What are you, twelve?

"Post modernism came about as a direct response to modernism's lack of regard for detail & history etc. Post moderist structures brought back the idea that a building shoudnt only be functional structure."

This is so stupid and one-sided an argument as not to be worth my refuting it. May I suggest any Australian posters on this site who already don't know better simply look up "Michael Sorkin," "Charles Moore," "Albert Speer," "Louis Sullivan," "Edward Durell Stone," and "Alfred Loos." Functionalism is to Modernism as Vanilla is to Ice Cream--intrinsic and yet hardly the only flavor.

Grow up, would you?

am i twelve, well only when im tanked... but having said that, most of the time im 30. god that's hard to say now... 30

But in essense Flatiron i think you miss the point between us.

You see it's a question of 'mind over matter'

I dont mind, cause you dont matter!

Cheers

Dean - Melbourne

I like Melbourne--and hate Post-Modern architecture.

If the PoMos had had something a little richer in mind--something less "jokey" they might have amounted to something. The PoMo stuff I actually like is always the stuff that's the most serious and the closest to the Classicist ideals it derives its ultimate power from, like the Worldwide Plaza in NY, which is almost a Deco classic 6o years after the fact. The two PoMo "twins" on the Melbourne skyline look great that way--on the skyline--but have not much to say closer up. Same thing with hundreds of similar buildings in the US, Canada, Europe, South America and Asia (particularly China). To quote Vincent Skully Jr.: "the old skyscrapers were lovely detailed, right down to the ground. The newer (PoMo) ones look loathed...."

Hi Dean,

Oops. Thought you were an adult. Obviously not. My mistake.

Cheers!

Flatiron.

but having said that. i was trying to put the subject in Laymans terms. so that more people can understand it better.It's not always ideal to detail something in all its complexities and find that people are worse off than before they read it. remenber KISS.

if you hadnt been an arogant arse i wouldnt have thought anything of it. But seeing that you're an obnoxious american/NY'er then i guess you deserved it.

Cheers

Dean - Melbourne

Yawn. "Simple" and "stupid" are not synonyms.

(Waits while Dean looks up the word "synonyms.")

Cheers!

Flatiron

Flatiron, when did you visit Melbourne and how long did you stay?

Since Dean has taken to PMing me Nationalist insults, I have lost interest in this thread.

Funny--if he actually knew anything about PostModernism he'd be decrying it as a perfidious American influence.

Ah well.

Peddle Thorp had a vision and they only do work of the best quality.


Lol. Sorry but take a look at the juvenile effort that the Melbourne Aquarium is, or Vodaphone arena. Budget and client's requirements aside, these two projects are examples of utter shite. Take a look at sporting architecture from around the world, or even over the railway tracks or Swan street and you will see what can and should be done with stadiums.

And the aquarium, please, hardly worth mentioning. Sails and and a turquoise wave wall to disguise such an ordinary building underneath it would look el cheapo in a western suburbs industrial estate. The service stations on the westgate freeway have more architectural merit.

I agree, I love ANZ but most of the other Melbourne buildings done by Peddle Thorp are competent and they work well but are rather dull. Take a look at the Airport Hilton which is a real shocker.

Po-Mo like any other architectural style had it's high points and it's low points. Saying that all postmodern buildings blow is just the trendy thing to say right now like saying all modernist buildings blow was the trendy thing to say in 1985.

To say that this Po-Mo building blows would be a statement of architectural snobbery:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/510/98333collins0904031.jpg

Lol. Sorry but take a look at the juvenile effort that the Melbourne Aquarium is, or Vodaphone arena. Budget and client's requirements aside, these two projects are examples of utter shite. Take a look at sporting architecture from around the world, or even over the railway tracks or Swan street and you will see what can and should be done with stadiums.

And the aquarium, please, hardly worth mentioning. Sails and and a turquoise wave wall to disguise such an ordinary building underneath it would look el cheapo in a western suburbs industrial estate. The service stations on the westgate freeway have more architectural merit.

Agree

ANZ a masterpiece? Sorry Muse but I think that building is dumb and simplistic at best. To say that it is a "vision" and Peddle Thorp only do work of the best quality...hmmm, personally I FULLY agree with Norman Day in this AGE article from a few months ago - Peddle Thorps buildings are "my worst nightmare":

Peddle Thorp Architects Book
Reviewer Norman Day
June 21, 2004

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Email to a friend



The ABC's Southbank building

Architecture is often explained away as an art, but it is business. And business means, like art, that public relations and exposure are all-important, even if that means presenting a stolid story of lost opportunities and missed adventures.

Put it this way, Peddle Thorp architects have designed many of my least favourite buildings in Melbourne, and now they have self-published a book showing their architecture. I'm not sure where you could buy a copy, mine arrived unsolicited through the mail, but try info@pta.com.au if you wish.

It came with a letter explaining , "This book is a testimony to you, our clients, whose vision it has been our privilege to deliver".

At 80 colour pages, Peddle Thorp Architects is a 24.5-centimetre-square hard cover with a foreword written by its design director, Peter Brooks, who says, "We do not pander to critics, aim to win awards or slavishly follow fads" but who also acknowledges that Peddle Thorp holds a "reputation for design excellence" and their "primary aim is to meet the needs of our clients".

Hmmm.

Vodafone Arena, Melbourne Aquarium, Tullamarine's Hilton Hotel, the ANZ world headquarters in Collins Street, ABC headquarters in Southbank, ESSO in Southgate, AMREP at the Alfred Hospital, and others - these are a few of my worst nightmares.

They represent to building what the P76 meant for cars.

Guilelessness comes to mind, or perhaps it is in fact a decent, honest, well-meaning professional attitude, where the product is all-important, satisfying the client is the aim and financial return is the bottom line. Nothing wrong with profits either.

But who profits from an aquarium that challenges the notion of dumbness? The illustrative forms, shapes and the ridiculous display of fatuousness of this building deserve an award if only for their silliness. Peddle Thorp say this "appears to be an elegant ship moored to the river's turning basin". Well, turn around and sail away.


They represent to building what the P76 meant for cars. Guilelessness comes to mind . . .
Why would anyone design a bank building with a post-modern, post-Gothic attitude for ANZ when that organisation sees itself as a forward-looking banker? How does that contribute to a better world, a sustainable outcome or even a more beautiful environment?

The architects explain that this 34-storey building integrates a historic banking chamber, as if that somehow justifies their Disneyland composition.

Why does the ABC building challenge the notion of blandness, expensively, while offering no help for those who use it and must visit? The white steel frames, open lifts and bolted stairways are simply dull. Yet the architects say they have "developed a place which has reinforced and changed the culture of the workplace".


The Hilton Hotel at Melbourne Airport.



AMREP at the Alfred Hospital is a medical and health research headquarters, very important in the community, world famous even, with the Baker Institute and MacFarlane centre contained within. Good opportunity for a world-class building, you might imagine?

The building is a bilious, undistinguished graphic of prime-coloured bits poking out of a metal backdrop.

I have stayed at the Tullamarine Hilton Hotel, which works efficiently as a mid-range hotel despite its architecture. Peddle Thorp says "it reflects Hilton International's established image and design standards with the highest quality fittings and a high-tech, contemporary theme throughout". Frankly, I prefer Paris Hilton.

So what am I to make of my new book?

Well, at least I should say thank you for the copy. And thank you for the reminder that architecture for business means doing the business, regularly.

Norman Day is a practising architect, adjunct professor of architecture (RMIT) and architect writer for The Age.

I completely agree - Peddle Thorp is Melbourne's worst major architectural practise IMHO. They're projects are almost entirely utter shite.

But that doesn't mean that Melb does not do postmodernism really well - because one only has to conjure up images of works by DCM, ARM, Daryl Jackson etc etc. And pomo at its best can be as awesome (eg 120 Collins, 101 Collins) as pomo at its worst (unfortunately, most - but not all - pomo works in north america and more recently in asia) can be crap.

flatiron: i have nothing against you saying what you think - because that's the point of these forums - but i have to say that you aren't the only one with more than a superficial knowledge of architecture in these forums (yes, even amonst aussies!), and the flavour of your comments in relation to the superiority of modernism reeks of north american cultural imperialism. if you've spent so much time studying the development of modernism in berlin and braSilia you'd know that your modernist pin-up boys probably aren't very popular in the said cities. after all, wouldn't you say that a pomo vengeance is being (or has already been) wreaked on berlin?

What the?
ANZ HQ is awesome. So are most of the buildings they've built.
The aquarium is uneventful though.

I duck back in to counter Grollo's claim.

No, to say that building blows simply proves that one has taken a close look at the original model (in this case, it appears to be the old Metropolitan Life Tower) and realized that, when compared, the new project lacks delicacy, grace, finese, wit, humanity, color, historic modeling and taste.

Flatiron, duck back into here to answer my question to you :)

Flatiron, when did you visit Melbourne and how long did you stay?

Last time was February of this year for about two weeks. Not a frequent visitor by the way.

By the way, anyone thinking I'm bashing Australia's architectural patrimony can relax--I would and have said the same thing about PoMo buildings the world over.

And what I have said is: BARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRF

Muse, I would appreciate not being quoted from another thread entirely. But, yes, the thing, as I put it, does indeed look like it was constructed from nursery blocks. And by an utter asswipe. You want Gothic, do Gothic. You want Neo-Classical, do Neo-Classical. I have nothing against the Woolworth Building or Carnegie Hall. But don't hand me this tract-home aesthetic bullshit and tell me it's a masterpiece. Because it bloody isn't.

Agree here. ANZ is pure vulgarity.

It's completely a matter of personal taste. You cant just say its crap. Some people really like it. Ie me.uewepuep has said the most sensible thing so far in this thread ie "It's completely a matter of personal taste." - so very, very true.

Flatiron has already esablished numerous times that he dislikes the ANZ HQ and all PoMo scrapers. Others to express their dislike for it have been Fountainhead (quoting that ding-bat Norman Day even :| ), Blabbyboy and Mt Tall (no surprise about Mr Tall though).

The other PoMo scraper in Melbourne designed by Peddle Thorp has been 530 Collins aka Stock Xchange ie 2nd pic post by tayser on page 1 of this thread, More pics @ 530 Collins (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=108388).

,,,and of course more pics of the fabulous Robert Peck von Hartel Trethowan's designed PoMo 333 Collins St (with refurbed domed ceiling in lobby areas):

http://www.walkingmelbourne.com/images/333collins4.jpg_http://www.walkingmelbourne.com/images/333collins.jpg


***(BTW Sydney has been lucky with Peddle Thorp & Walker's scraper architecture: Gateway Plaza, Colonial Centre, Angel Place, Civic Tower and of course the PoMo #1 O'Connell St)

...

Personally, I don't dislike PoMo - I just hate dumb historical interpretations in modern skyscrapers. Postmodern to me means more than "mimicking" a gothic building in a 40 storey dumb box, thereby destroying an old buildings integrity and making the whole thing incoherent. It is a personal taste thing - I love other buildings classified as "Postmodern" such as 101 Collins - which I would say is at least an intelligent interpretation of 1930's NYC style of stacked, stepped scrapers

333 Collins Street was designed by an architect from Dallas, pretty much the home of dumb PoMo, RPVHT were the local documentation architects

muse, hold it - i don't necessarily dislike PoMo - i simply lament the ubiquity of what fountainhead calls "dumb PoMo" - but, as i said earlier, when it's done well, it can be masterful - eg 101 collins defers and pays homage to pre-war NYC "stepped/stacked scraper" (again, to use fountainhead's description) in an understated, elegant and graceful way, and arguably also attempts to turn "inside-out", through the use of the receding buttresses, skyscrapers in the modern style (ala mies van der rohe).

the other obvious example of PoMo "at its best" is 120 collins across the road pays homage to a slightly earlier era of chicago scraper, accentuating soaring height but also (and perhaps more significantly) in the same, understated way, defers to joseph reed's romantic 19th century church at its base - in a far more sophisticated way than the brash, crude attempt of the anz try hard "gothic" tower to defer to the masterful neo-gothic banking hall and former stock exchange building.

you see, i prefer subtlety to my high art, thank you very much.

btw, would you call the rialto tower a PoMo scraper? if so, it was WELL ahead of its time. (i once heard it described - quite inappropriately IMHO - as a "brutalist scraper")!

333 Collins Street was designed by an architect from Dallas, pretty much the home of dumb PoMo, RPVHT were the local documentation architectsHrmmmm, skyscrapers.com lists the architect as RPvHT: http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=108448 - Doesn't mention any others :dunno: apart from under one of the pics, which is the Australian structural firm The Bonnaci Group and states its involvement in the project here: Bonnaci Group (http://www.bonaccigroup.com/aaoff.html) .

BTW Blabbyboy, I didn't say you dislike all PoMo scrapers. Just elluded to the fact that you weren't crazy about The ANZ World HQ.

Also I thought it would have been the opposite with both 101 & 120 Collins ie 101 paying hommage to the Chicago scraper (by a stretch) and 120, the New York deco stepped greats ie The Chrysler and The ESB.

History has alway repeated itself and the art of architecture is no different. Art deco borrowed from ancient Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Atzec styles and the much later Gothic styles. Scraper PoMo made a conscious effort to do pretty much the same including (ironicially) these same styles that were emmulated in Art Deco architecture.

...

Hrmmmm, skyscrapers.com lists the architect as RPvHT: http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=108448 - Doesn't mention any others :dunno: apart from under one of the pics, which is the Australian structural firm The Bonnaci Group and states its involvement in the project here: Bonnaci Group (http://www.bonaccigroup.com/aaoff.html) .

BTW Blabbyboy, I didn't say you dislike all PoMo scrapers. Just elluded to the fact that you weren't crazy about The ANZ World HQ.

Also I thought it would have been the opposite with both 101 & 120 Collins ie 101 paying hommage to the Chicago scraper (by a stretch) and 120, the New York deco stepped greats ie The Chrysler and The ESB.

History has alway repeated itself and the art of architecture is no different. Art deco borrowed from ancient Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Atzec styles and the much later Gothic styles. Scraper PoMo made a conscious effort to do pretty much the same including (ironicially) these same styles that were emmulated in Art Deco architecture.

...
from what i understand, that the established discourse on 101 Collins & 120 Collins is that 101 was not so much intended to be a homage to NYC scrapers, but has since been described as such, while 120 Collins was intended as a homage to Chicago scrapers, but more importantly, to establish some "dialogue" with the church at its base. pls correct me if i'm wrong.

btw, i once went to the foyer of Peddle Thorpe in 140 William, where I used to work, to check out a model of the ANZ gothic tower - and I was chased out by an over-zealous architect thinking that i might "steal" some ideas or something - truly the most idiotic way of welcoming potential business, if you ask me. IMHO, they are the worst "MAJOR" archifirm in Melbourne.

Huh :? "pays homage" were your words in your previous post about 101. They weren't a quote from another source either.

..and I'm sorry you had a bad experience with a rep. from Peddle Thorp (no "e" BTW), but that doesn't mean their work is "bad". I would have chased you out too, ya shifty lookin' bastard :sly:.

ya shifty lookin' bastard :sly:.

:rofl:

Okay--to take the dialogue to a new level--can anyone here name an excellent PoMo scraper in the US--where the style was actually born?

Thought not...that's because, despite a few honorable attempts, there really aren't any.

Don;t you think, for something to be any good AT ALL, whoever came up with it should have at least ONE thing under their belt that doesn't make you want to fucking puke?

Easy:

333 Wacker Drive, Chicago
US Bank Tower, LA
One Liberty Place, Philadelphia,
225 South Sixth, Minneapolis
Westin New York at Times Square
New York, New York Hotel, Las Vegas (hehehe)

And up in Canuckistan:

Le 1000 rue de la Gauchetière (MTL's tallest) & Le 1250 Boulevard René-Lévesque (IBM) in Montréal and 40 King Street West (Scotia) & 250 Yonge Street (Eaton Centre?) in Tarranna.

Okay--to take the dialogue to a new level--can anyone here name an excellent PoMo scraper in the US--where the style was actually born?Easy-peasy again. The 70's designed Sony Tower, formerly the AT&T Building on Madison Ave, N.Y.C.. It was considered one of the first true PoMo scrapers.

___http://www.skyscraperphotos.com/cit/dny03/b/igny330.jpg___http://www.skyscraperphotos.com/cit/dny04/b/igny425.jpg

Its crown often (and obviously) likened to a Chippendale highboy:

___________________http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/3187/379chippendale1.jpg


***Lots more pics and info @ Sony Tower (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=115511)

....

..and I'm sorry you had a bad experience with a rep. from Peddle Thorp (no "e" BTW), but that doesn't mean their work is "bad". I would have chased you out too, ya shifty lookin' bastard :sly:.
No - I simply think that their work is bad - it had nothing to do with my bad experience - but I just wanted to share that bad experience.

To let you guys know why I hate Peddle Thorp so much....they are notorious in the industry for doing projects on extremely low fees, in order to win work and stifle the competition (incl my firm)....they have a company policy of high turnover, low quality design

This means they spend very little time actually designing and putting any decent quality of thought into their work - just get it done as quick as possible, and get it out the door

To put in in perspective...A normal fee for a commercial project is about 3.5% of the contract sum

Peddle Thorp usually go in for fees of about 1.5%, normally at least half the competitions price. That is how they win work, it's not because people actually like their projects!!

Of course, I am talking about Peddle Thorp Melbourne - Peddle Thorp Walker (Sydney) are a completley separate company and have nothing to do with PTA except for a name....they at least have a better design reputation and are doing some decent work, such as the Beijing Olympic pool and the Bond office building.

To let you guys know why I hate Peddle Thorp so much....they are notorious in the industry for doing projects on extremely low fees, in order to win work and stifle the competition (incl my firm)....they have a company policy of high turnover, low quality design

This means they spend very little time actually designing and putting any decent quality of thought into their work - just get it done as quick as possible, and get it out the door

To put in in perspective...A normal fee for a commercial project is about 3.5% of the contract sum

Peddle Thorp usually go in for fees of about 1.5%, normally at least half the competitions price. That is how they win work, it's not because people actually like their projects!!

Of course, I am talking about Peddle Thorp Melbourne - Peddle Thorp Walker (Sydney) are a completley separate company and have nothing to do with PTA except for a name....they at least have a better design reputation and are doing some decent work, such as the Beijing Olympic pool and the Bond office building.
exactamundo, dude!

Christ all, :ohno: modernism and post-modernism are simply different styles,
not better or worse and all architectural styles have good and bad examples!
Now back to what this thread is about; Melbourne & post-modernism.
My favourite post-modern scrapers in Melbourne are 120 and 101 Collins Street pictured below.

http://www.thecollectormm.com/private/CollinsTwins1.jpg

http://www.thecollectormm.com/private/CollinsTwins2.jpg

On another note, I think Nondas Katsalidis’ work here in Melbourne is balanced on a fine line between modernism and post-modernism.
Examples below are Melbourne Terrace with entrance sculptures, The republic Tower, Ian Potter Museum and Eureka (under construction).

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/MelbTerrace1.jpg

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/MelbTerrace3.jpg

http://www.thecollectormm.com/private/Republic1.jpg

http://www.thecollectormm.com/private/IanPotterMuseum.jpg

http://www.thecollectormm.com/private/Eureka1.jpg

I love postmodernism when it is done well.
But something struck me recently when I took a closer look at the "Botanica" apartments in St Kilda Road.

What at first I thought was a pretty good post-modern interpretation of the 1890s french second empire style building you'd see skirting Central Park in New York. The building, constructed in the 1990s is actually in worse shape - many of the ornaments on the facade, which appear to be cheaply constructed of hollow cement are beginning to get concrete cancer and crumble and fall apart only 15 years later!

Imagine the body corporate fees of fixing them !

http://www.travelhero.com/graphics/propimages/10/101567-01.jpg

There is another similarly remarkable apartment building just off Toorak Road in the same style, including a greening copper mansard roof.

I think you are right Collector, Katsalidis early Melbourne work will stand the test of time as a truly innovative mix. I think more recently though, he has gone almost completely modernist and has influenced a batch of new copycats that it is difficult to pick his current style out of the general mish mash.

I also think that Edmund & Corrigan are great - originally hailed around the world as post-modern heros in the 90s - their style is now pretty much reviled except for the few who are bold enough to grapple with their anti-conservative style.

Is Eureka post modern?
I would have thought just plain modern. *shrug*

Postmodern is not a style, it simply means "not modernist"

There is a difference between postmodern and historicist though. Personally, I think Nonda does not fit into the historicist catehory, even though there are some references to old architecture, it is not done in a dumb, obvious way

(unlike the ANZ)

virtually all architeture is referenced in some way Nonda is one of the best at using styles and adapting the elements to create a new look.

the thought that the carlton art building is post modernist is wrong ; the shape is essentially modernist with the added adoption of new materials to create a new modern style

"What at first I thought was a pretty good post-modern interpretation of the 1890s french second empire style building you'd see skirting Central Park in New York. The building, constructed in the 1990s is actually in worse shape - many of the ornaments on the facade, which appear to be cheaply constructed of hollow cement are beginning to get concrete cancer and crumble and fall apart only 15 years later!"

Meanwhile the 1890s CPW buildings are still going strong. There's a lesson here kids....

Postmodern is not a style, it simply means "not modernist"

There is a difference between postmodern and historicist though. Personally, I think Nonda does not fit into the historicist catehory, even though there are some references to old architecture, it is not done in a dumb, obvious way

(unlike the ANZ)

Post-modernism can be a style and mean "not modernist" as well!
Also, I said that Katsalidis' work falls somewere between modernism and post-modernism, not one or another. :)

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/ANZ1.jpg
The Post-modern ANZ Tower above and
the Moderne (Art Deco) Mitchell House juxtaposed with Katsalidis' Modern/Post-Modern Argus Centre below.
http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/MitchellandArgus1.jpg

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/ANZ2.jpg
Has the ANZ tower ever looked any better than this?

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/EastCluster4.jpg
You have to admit we have a nice collection of Post-Modern towers grouped together as part of the eastern cluster in Melbourne. :)

Well, having read this thread over, I wanted to make a comment about the post-modernism in Melbourne and the ANZ Tower in particular. (Please note, I have no formal architectual training- just a keen observer).

I actually dont mind the ANZ Tower at all. Because it is different and very distinctive. If you stand in South Yarra or Richmond and look to the city, it immediately stands out. And I say not because it is hideous - just unusual.

That said, I have a bit of a problem with it's "Gothic" tag. For me, this is Gothic (to draw on my namesake building - an example of secular Gothic):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/adonline/buildings/olderfleet.jpg
The Olderfleet (http://www.adonline.id.au/buildings/olderfleet.php), 471-477 Collins Street, Melbourne

Um, doesn't it need pointed arch windows (like on The Olderfleet Building or a cathedral) to be Gothic, at minimum? For me, that is the disappointment in the ANZ. It is a bit half-baked on even the basics of Gothic. (Pointed windows don't make Gothic IMHO if they are not arched). I realise that that poses a massive engineering problem and that real pointed arch windows are probably not possible on a sky scraper. And some will say that that is the very reason why it should not have been designed like that.

I still like it, and at the ground level it integrates really really well with the streetscape. It is just not very good as "Gothic".

And while I am having my 5¢ worth, I really like 101 and 120 Collins Street too! (Nice photos, Collector). The Argus Centre is pretty awful tho!

Cheers!

Thanks The Olderfleet and welcome on board.
Another member making the move from Walking Melbourne as well.
:)

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/King1.jpg
The post-modern ASX on the left and the modern Rialto Towers on the right.

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/CollinsWest8.jpg
The ASX in all its glory, west-end of Collins Street. :)

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/Queen2.jpg
The moderne (art deco) ACA Building and the post-modern ANZ look so good together. :)

http://www.thecollectormm.com/gallery/photography/City/slides/AusonCol3.jpg
Australia on Collins. :)