:runaway:

^ Sure, start the thread and then run away from it!

Any subway is a good subway.

This one needs to be completed though.

The three levels of government have recieved billions in taxes from the new development that has been constructed due to Sheppard.

Development Charges
Land Transfer Tax
GST
PST
Income Tax from all employed in construction and various indiect industries
CPP Premiums
EI Premiums
Building Permits.

This is not limited to the Sheppard Corridor. Most of the recent NYCC boom has been due to Sheppard. The North York Secondary Plan limited the total square footage of allowable development in NYCC until such time that the Sheppard subway line was approved. At that time clauses within the North York Secondary Plan opened up millions of square feet of potential development.

Thus, with the land open and available for development we now have the NYCC construction boom that has benifited thousands of new home owners, tens of thousands of skilled tradesmen, planners, architects within the residential construction industry as well as all the spin off industries like furnature, the local economy for retail and whole sale.

And on top of that all 3 levels of government have benifited in the tune of billions from taxes, levies and fees due to the sheer amount of residential construction activity the last 5 years.

Why doesn't the TTC get a chunk of the funds that go into buying property within a certain distance of their subway stations? We all know that living near a subway station is a perk that you want when buying that property, we all know that you are paying for that subway station proximity, so why doesn't the TTC get any of that? :bash:

The three levels of government have recieved billions in taxes from the new development that has been constructed due to Sheppard.

Development Charges
Land Transfer Tax
GST
PST
Income Tax from all employed in construction and various indiect industries
CPP Premiums
EI Premiums
Building Permits.

This is not limited to the Sheppard Corridor. Most of the recent NYCC boom has been due to Sheppard. The North York Secondary Plan limited the total square footage of allowable development in NYCC until such time that the Sheppard subway line was approved. At that time clauses within the North York Secondary Plan opened up millions of square feet of potential development.

Thus, with the land open and available for development we now have the NYCC construction boom that has benifited thousands of new home owners, tens of thousands of skilled tradesmen, planners, architects within the residential construction industry as well as all the spin off industries like furnature, the local economy for retail and whole sale.

And on top of that all 3 levels of government have benifited in the tune of billions from taxes, levies and fees due to the sheer amount of residential construction activity the last 5 years.


This is great news! The development industry truly contributes greatly to Canada's economic development.

Why doesn't the TTC get a chunk of the funds that go into buying property within a certain distance of their subway stations? We all know that living near a subway station is a perk that you want when buying that property, we all know that you are paying for that subway station proximity, so why doesn't the TTC get any of that? :bash:

I disagree with further taxation but instead maybe allowing denser and taller developments with a relaxation of the stringent bylaws to attract more developments near TTC stations. The TTC will benefit from the extra ridership generated by the new development, and since the infastructure is already in place it won't cost anything to attract these new riders. :cheers:

When ever any body, be it an individual or government invests in something like realestate, there is always a potential for the venture to fail and loose money.

I personally don't want any government gambling with my tax dollars.

When ever any body, be it an individual or government invests in something like realestate, there is always a potential for the venture to fail and loose money.

I personally don't want any government gambling with my tax dollars.

WTF? Is that a joke?

What's so funny about it?

WTF? Is that a joke?

I didn't quite get it myself...

When ever any body, be it an individual or government invests in something like realestate, there is always a potential for the venture to fail and loose money.

You realize the largest land owners within the Toronto boundaries are "City of Toronto", "Province of Ontario" and "Country of Canada" (not necessarily in that order as the Rouge Park deal may have shuffled things around).

Anyway, simply put, land ownership is about the only thing a Government can have that is realiable on the long haul. Would you prefer they invest in the stock market or precious metals?

When ever any body, be it an individual or government invests in something like realestate, there is always a potential for the venture to fail and loose money.

That's the definition of Capitalism.

^I know that realestate is generally speaking one of the safest ways to invest money.

But realestate is also a long term investment that does not pay dividents usually under a few years.

In this case, alot of the land around the Sheppard line was already occupied by a body other than the city. This would have required the city to purchase the land and hope that it went up in value.

In a bad scenerio, the city could buy back the land that is already owned by private citizens or companies to hold on to it for a few years in hopes that it will appreciate. During that time, the city will loose some money in non-collected taxes. Then do add insult to injury, the demand for the land around the subways does not end up being as high because developers are not willing to pay what was expected. At this point, the whole enterprise could be losing money.

No matter how you cut it, investments can loose money.

^I know that realestate is generally speaking one of the safest ways to invest money.

But realestate is also a long term investment that does not pay dividents usually under a few years.

In this case, alot of the land around the Sheppard line was already occupied by a body other than the city. This would have required the city to purchase the land and hope that it went up in value.

In a bad scenerio, the city could buy back the land that is already owned by private citizens or companies to hold on to it for a few years in hopes that it will appreciate. During that time, the city will loose some money in non-collected taxes. Then do add insult to injury, the demand for the land around the subways does not end up being as high because developers are not willing to pay what was expected. At this point, the whole enterprise could be losing money.

No matter how you cut it, investments can loose money.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

To recap:
So far, no debate about subways. But discussion over potential humour (or not).

To recap:
So far, no debate about subways. But discussion over potential humour (or not).

The discussion is about the profitability of the Sheppard Subway. All the post have been on topic except for yours ;)

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

The point is not to have the city invest in the realestate around subway stations for profit.

k. What about the real estate they already own. ie. Yonge + Eglinton, VP, Warden, Downsview. Real estate in excess of what's nessesary to carry out operations. That's the main reason why the TTC is in the real estate business. The TTC does not go out and purchase land just for the sake of reselling it at a higher profit later. No one's suggesting that which is why I was a little confused by your post.

^I would have to know all the facts about land that is already owned by the TTC.


To be honest, most of my posts have been in responce to this quote that made this suggestion:

Why doesn't the TTC get a chunk of the funds that go into buying property within a certain distance of their subway stations? We all know that living near a subway station is a perk that you want when buying that property, we all know that you are paying for that subway station proximity, so why doesn't the TTC get any of that? :bash:


I'm into Civil Eng so I understand the need to have land for transit alignments and that wasn't what I was getting at.

To be honest, most of my posts have been in responce to this quote that made this suggestion:

^ lol I had no idea to whom you were responding too the first time. But now that I know, I mostly agree.

I think TRZ was talking about a development tax near subway stations rather than owning the land directly. I would only support this if it came from the city portion of the development tax rather than a new tax which might hinder development near stations.

^See, I though you were supporting an idea like TRZ. Its also very possible that I missed his point too.

^See, I though you were supporting an idea like TRZ. Its also very possible that I missed his point too.

Ah, I see what you mean. I'm just glad we got this all resolved. :)

sheppard will put even more pressure on yonge line. yonge line is already overcrowded. the city should allow densities on spadina line which is rarely used. however, i dont think they will as there are a lot of nimbys on spadina line. they cancelled a highway not for the sake of urbanism but for themselves. just allow a high density developement on that line, which i dont know why they havent already.

Hang on a second, I am seriously missing something here.

I will admit that I don't understand economics/stock markets all that well. However, I do know that any property within a relatively short walk to a subway station has a high value that is partially attributed to that fact. Since the land costs are high already, as are the property taxes that go with it, shouldn't the TTC be getting a dedicated piece of that, since they have a hand in why the city has higher income from the properties in question?

Sorry if I phrased myself badly here, I've gotten a little lost myself in the mess I've started. :?

The discussion is about the profitability of the Sheppard Subway.

I don't think there needs to be a discussion about this. We know that it has been profitable for every group except the TTC (at this point -- give it 5 more years) -- even private developers and home owners along that corridor are doing quite well.

"Since the land costs are high already, as are the property taxes that go with it, shouldn't the TTC be getting a dedicated piece of that, since they have a hand in why the city has higher income from the properties in question? "


Since the TTC is just an entity of the city, I'm really not all that concerned about direct revenues as opposed to subsidies...in the end, it's all just the same amount of money the city has to balance it's budget with. It's "new" cash that's needed...not just a new way to shuffle the same amount around with.






KGB

The discussion is about the profitability of the Sheppard Subway.

I don't think there needs to be a discussion about this. We know that it has been profitable for every group except the TTC (at this point -- give it 5 more years) -- even private developers and home owners along that corridor are doing quite well.

No less than one year ago, some people were quoted as saying the Sheppard Subway will "never be profitable" and should be "moftballed." It's hard to believe but it's true. Do a quick search on Google Groups for all the people bitching and moaning about the Sheppard Subway.

Cutting transit service is the #1 way to reduce ridership. Mothballing Sheppard would not only be wasting a billion dollars, but make the whole system less profitable. Subways are long term investments...and the payoff for Sheppard is already starting to come in...people should be happy...not pissed at the line.





"sheppard will put even more pressure on yonge line. yonge line is already overcrowded. "


Well hey...you can't have it both ways...the idea is to increase ridership.


KGB

^It's true that many people are irritated about the SHeppard line in the area.

But I do think it would be worth while having it if it were to look something like this:

http://homepage.mac.com/gordoom/ttcplan/phases/phase2northsubway.png

^ IMO, we should extend Sheppard to SCC first. OR allow much higher densities, so Sheppard West has enough riders to justify the subway.

The whole shabang should be done from STC to the Spindina line and have the Spindina line extended all the way to York U. That would save alot of students in Scarborough alot of time on their commute.

First you take Spadina up to 905, then you have the power. Once you get the power, then you get the money. Once you have the money, then you take Sheppard to freaking Pickering. Once you're in Pickering, then you get the women, maybe. -- apologies to the movie Scarface

I donno if your serious or no but i cant see a subway line going to pickering for at least 25 years
I can tell you this much; b4 there is a subway to pickering, there will be a subway along eglinton
IMO the subway should start @ yonge, with stops @: avenue, Spadina, Bathurst, Allen, Dufferen ect..... all the way to the airport
But i doubt that will happen

I agree with homer j. simpson with the extensions on the spadina and sheppard lines

and i think that there is a probability that they will occur before the Eglinton Subway gets built

Once you're in Pickering, then you get the women, maybe.
Problem is they're all under age. Trust me - I live in Pickering. :(

Problem is they're all under age. Trust me - I live in Pickering. :(
Maybe AreBe likes underage girls :runaway:

Well, if younger means 25, then, ok.
Pickering- ok, not going to happen -- but taking Spadina up into York region will help get Sheppard built--might be an idea to have a 'package deal.'

York U is wise. Sheppard to STC (via Agincourt GO I would hope (and do a better job than you did at Leslie)) is much needed since the line is not as useful as it should be without "completing the square". Following that is the extension of the Yonge Line, then Eglinton will come.

"Problem is they're all under age. Trust me - I live in Pickering"

Dude seeing as im <18 i love underaged girls

maybe i should go to pickering :jk:

Getting off track here...

"Problem is they're all under age. Trust me - I live in Pickering"

Dude seeing as im <18 i love underaged girls

maybe i should go to pickering :jk:

:weirdo: Just stick with the highschool sluts.

^ will do

Sheppard was good, my assumptions are that there are far fewer nimbys up there to say no to towers going up all over the place so they are coming up like grass. They really need to get something going on with the busway/subway to york tho...I was waiting today for the 196 and it constantly fills up. York should be priority #1 once they have cash.

Take it to SCC, so we can have a quick run from North York Downtown to Scarborough Downtown. What would also be ideal is to scrap the RT and extend the B/D subway to SCC too. Maybe even extend it where the RT is located so they don't have to dig much.

I think they should get off their asses and increase the capacity of the RT. They have the room available to modify the system to accept 8 car trains (I'd say 6, but the RT cars are smaller than Subway cars, so 8). There is no space issue on that line for platform extensions. It'll be bloody expensive, but the line is in desperate need of it and will increase ridership in combination with the Sheppard Line when its extension is complete. Upon the Sheppard extension's completion, the Sheppard Line should be running 6-car trains as well, which is already in all stations design and constructed (they only need knock down a wall and doll up the extension area (which is currently bland stone)).

As for the B/D Line, I still say it should be extended to Eglinton GO, via a station at Brimley.

I don't believe the RT technology is made any more. Vancouver has the 2nd generation of our RTs, but it's doubtful they'd be willing to part with any so people in scarborough have a more comfortable ride. Getting rid of the RT and replacing it with something else will be the only option. Of course, if the Sheppard line were extended to SCC, then there may be a reduction in people using the RT, but not much.

The RT is now a dink technology...by the time they get around to extending the Sheppard line to STC, they might as well just replace it with regular subway tracks. That way there would be a continuous loop on B-D/Sheppard.

Or...since the streetcar fleet is getting one more rebuild, which will extend their lifespan, they will also be a dink technology down the road as well....maybe replace the RT with whatever the new streetcar technology will be. Although T1 heavy rail cars would probably be the best thing.






KGB

Hmm, that Sheppard-B/D route combined with Lower-Bay integration for a figure-8 line between Sheppard/Yonge (with one end going upto Finch) via Union, Bay, Kennedy, and STC? The circular line concept I think is extremely underappreciated on this continent, as it has been proven to work in both Europe and Asia extremely well.

Or the Sheppard Line could continue on the original RT extension proposal that goes back to Sheppard and beyond.

Or the Sheppard Line could continue on the original RT extension proposal that goes back to Sheppard and beyond.

That would make more sense... but what happens to B/D if it replaces the RT? It becomes the B/D/Kennedy line? 0o. Should it continue past STC further north (Pacific Mall?)?

How aobut expanding the already paid for SRT along Eglinton? Now, that's crazy!

l....maybe replace the RT with whatever the new streetcar technology will be.


KGB

I think this is the money. It's actually doable and cheap enough.

Too European.

How aobut expanding the already paid for SRT along Eglinton? Now, that's crazy!
Yeah, considering the technology is out of production :hm: :hammer:

.. see Vancouver (Skytrain) and see KGB's idea of putting streetcars on the line. Can be built at grade and above ground, and much, much cheaper and faster to construct than a subway.

Well, it was designed as a streetcar line in the first place...it was Queen's Park that decided to use it as a working model to sell those linear induction medium capacity technology.

They sold a few of those, but I'd hardly call it huge success...and we got stuck with a less-than-perfecr line for people in Toronto to actually use.






KGB

kill the RT, and replace it with a dedicated surface streetcar ROW which serves the area population rather than a industrial park.

A surface streetcar would also go a LONG way in promoting a urban environment in SCC.

The RT technology was a good idea but did not end up working very well and the alignment of the tracks were also not all that good.

The whole thing was misconceived and hopefully no body will make the same mistake.

I think we can all sleep at night knowing that Are Be is not a TTC route planner. A monorail along Eglinton? Right Friggin There technology to Whitby? Yikes!

No kidding eh, he would amost certainly run a monorail right to his front doorstep.

I think we can all sleep at night knowing that Are Be is not a TTC route planner. A monorail along Eglinton? Right Friggin There technology to Whitby? Yikes!
More of a streetcar line on its own rightof way, making use of what is alraedy paid for, and making use of space for new rights of way to the side, on top, under Eglinton, and - of course- much of this can be built cheaply and quickly at grade -- all the way into Mississauga!
Too European, I know.

.. see Vancouver (Skytrain)

Skytrain is indeed very much a success story. It is 1/3rd underground though, keep in mind. Where else are you gonna put it in D/T Vancouver? There are many intelligent and innovative steps taken with the SkyTrain technology that makes it really safe, fast, frequent, low maintenance, long life span, and quiet (meaning residents don't get ticked off near its tracks).

There is actually a lot to learn and follow from SkyTrain's example. It still takes capital cost though, which the government isn't willing to fork over from QP.

In order to have a streetcar there it would have to connect with the already existing streetcar network. But why replace one cheap out line with another.

Skytrain is indeed very much a success story. It is 1/3rd underground though, keep in mind. Where else are you gonna put it in D/T Vancouver? There are many intelligent and innovative steps taken with the SkyTrain technology that makes it really safe, fast, frequent, low maintenance, long life span, and quiet (meaning residents don't get ticked off near its tracks).

There is actually a lot to learn and follow from SkyTrain's example. It still takes capital cost though, which the government isn't willing to fork over from QP.


I think that the skytrain is similar if not actually an ICTS like the Scarborough RT in Toronto.

No, I personally think that this technology has already failed once in Toronto.

Besides, the majority of the cost for subway building in TO is not the trains or the track system, its building the stations and digging the tunnel system.

I think that the skytrain is similar if not actually an ICTS like the Scarborough RT in Toronto.

No, I personally think that this technology has already failed once in Toronto.



My friend works for the company that designed the station/train controls for RT & Skytrain, & both uses the same system. Toronto's RT failure is that it cuts through industrial areas(except for STC), where ridership is low & new ridership potential is kept to a minimum. Vancouver's Expo line success is due to its links between Metrotown, downtown & Surrey's City centre, and population growth near the line will continue to grow as densities increase.

Ttc could scrap the RT Scarborough line, but the RT technology could be viable through Eglinton, especially if tunnel building takes so much excess capital. Eglinton, being one of uptown's few wide arterial roads & the only carpool street I remember in Toronto, will make streetcars and traffic a living nightmare, for crossing the roads itself is dangerous enough.

The alignment was poorly planned BUT the RT is over capacity at the moment during rush hours.

The ICTS just doesn't have the capacity to deal with the ridership.

No more RT... ever.

BD line to SCC! I can't believe I'm hearing plans for the RT down Eglinton. Their GARBAGE!!

^Ditto!!!

I still am having a hard time understanding why Vancouver is making ICTSs the backbone of their system.

^Ditto!!!

I still am having a hard time understanding why Vancouver is making ICTSs the backbone of their system.

Probably has something to do with the fact that their ridership nowhere even close to TOs. And that STILL isn't a good reason to use it.

"Toronto's RT failure is that it cuts through industrial areas(except for STC), where ridership is low & new ridership potential is kept to a minimum. "


No...that's not it at all (not that I'm praising the route necessarily)....how could it be lacking the ridership you claim....if it's been at capacity???????

No...it's a failure because it's not the heavy rail T-1 line it should be that is just an extension of the B-D line, and it requires a modal change.






KGB

"Toronto's RT failure is that it cuts through industrial areas(except for STC), where ridership is low & new ridership potential is kept to a minimum. "


No...that's not it at all (not that I'm praising the route necessarily)....how could it be lacking the ridership you claim....if it's been at capacity???????

No...it's a failure because it's not the heavy rail T-1 line it should be that is just an extension of the B-D line, and it requires a modal change.


KGB


I ride it once a week at ~6pm Monday from STC to Danforth subway line, & was not that full. If it's really over capacitated during rush hours, then they should include a busway as an alternative during these times, for the RT is really underused in other time frames throughout the week.

Probably has something to do with the fact that their ridership nowhere even close to TOs. And that STILL isn't a good reason to use it.

I actually think that Vancouver should continue its above ground systems, for the views are too good to be missed out in the tunnel. If the rail is designed properly, its frequency should be as high as the subway.

I actually think that Vancouver should continue its above ground systems, for the views are too good to be missed out in the tunnel.

Wow, I never actually thought about that, but you have a point. It would indeed be a shame to go underground when you can view all the mountains above ground.

Since I criss cross Toronto/Vancouver alot, the mountains really stand out to me ... Maybe Vancouver could adopt a system like West Rail(Hong Kong), where they have underground/at grade and elevated tracks throughout the 20 km journey.

They probably would if they had the cash.

^,^^ I was thinking the same thing. Would it be possibile to upgrade the shitty ICTS to T1 Subway cars?

Would it be possibile to upgrade the shitty ICTS to T1 Subway cars?

I don't believe so.

It seems such a waste to invest so much in transit when the only time it's used up to capacity is rush hours. That's something that the Europeans and Asians do not have to worry about.

If they want to gain more capital to finance transit, they should intensify densities on transit corridors, yet provide enough amenities (work/play) nearby for the locals so space can be freed up for others during rush hours.

Or, they can offer discount fares/monthly ratse for travel during non-rush hours.

It seems such a waste to invest so much in transit when the only time it's used up to capacity is rush hours. That's something that the Europeans and Asians do not have to worry about.

If they want to gain more capital to finance transit, they should intensify densities on transit corridors, yet provide enough amenities (work/play) nearby for the locals so space can be freed up for others during rush hours.

Or, they can offer discount fares/monthly ratse for travel during non-rush hours.

I think what the TTC is doing researching into right now. If Sunday pass = weekend pass, and if you have a few hours to transfer anywhere, I think ridership will go up. I don't think the capacity is that underused as it is. I don't ever really see the green line deserted except really late at night.

Vancouver is a whole different kettle of fish. Last time I was there I found it kind of strange just how empty the trains seemed. For all complaints here about RT, the RT there was not bad at all. Any illumination on why it is not utilized as much as it probably could be? BTW, I never used the RT during rush hours so I don't know how up to capacity it may get.

I think what the TTC is doing researching into right now. If Sunday pass = weekend pass, and if you have a few hours to transfer anywhere, I think ridership will go up. I don't think the capacity is that underused as it is. I don't ever really see the green line deserted except really late at night.

Vancouver is a whole different kettle of fish. Last time I was there I found it kind of strange just how empty the trains seemed. For all complaints here about RT, the RT there was not bad at all. Any illumination on why it is not utilized as much as it probably could be? BTW, I never used the RT during rush hours so I don't know how up to capacity it may get.

When I'm at the subway at 8:30-9pm, it's pretty much deserted, all the way up to Sheppard Centre (past Eglinton). Weekends are even more quiet, but then there's not really much reason to ride it anyways for many people. Usually, I'm riding the B-line (99) on Broadway in Vancouver, & was suprised it is almost always full. But then again, it's a bus, though a very efficient one.

"Skytrain is indeed very much a success story."

" I personally think that this technology has already failed once in Toronto."


I find it odd how Torontonians think the RT a "failure" and the Skytrain a "success", when if you look at the numbers, pound for pound, the RT outperforms the Skytrain on ridership. The RT is only 6 stations and 6.4kms long...yet it carries 42,000 on an avg weekday. Compare this to the Millennium Line, which is much bigger ( 16kms), which has 36,000 avg daily ridership.








"I still am having a hard time understanding why Vancouver is making ICTSs the backbone of their system."


Because they really don't have the kind of "mass transit" numbers to justify anything else. The skytrain is really more of a commuter transit system...a sort of mini GO Transit.

But I agree with you...you will never grow the kind of mass transit system needed by building elevated LRT's. It not bad...it will just limit the future of transit use to a certain degree.







KGB

When I'm at the subway at 8:30-9pm, it's pretty much deserted, all the way up to Sheppard Centre. Weekends are even more quiet, but then there's not really much reason to ride it anyways for many people. Usually, I'm riding the B-line (99) on Broadway in Vancouver, & was suprised it is almost always full. But then again, it's a bus, though a very efficient one.

Indeed...

Well-managed buses are certainly one way to offload the capacity. I can't care too much for that option because I avoid buses like the plague (they make me sick, hence why the Sheppard line isn't 100% of waste.) but it makes sense for many areas.

I find it odd how Torontonians think the RT a "failure" and the Skytrain a "success", when if you look at the numbers, pound for pound, the RT outperforms the Skytrain on ridership. The RT is only 6 stations and 6.4kms long...yet it carries 42,000 on an avg weekday. Compare this to the Millennium Line, which is much bigger ( 16kms), which has 36,000 avg daily ridership.

KGB

The millenium line indeed seems to be a white elephant built in the wrong places. That's unfortunate, for the Expo line was so well planned.

Ok Van-TO....let me get this straight....according to you, Toronto's subways are "pretty much deserted" in the evenings...and even more deserted (which must be "totally" deserted then) on the weekends? Yet the Vancouver Skytrains are "almost always" full???

And for some reason there is no reason for anybody to be riding subways in Toronto???????

Unless you are taking those special subways for invisable people, as a person who has been taking the subway for decades, I find this bizarre to say the least. besides having actuall numbers that would refute this bizarre observation of yours, I have been on the subways after midnight regularily and they are full of people.

But then again why wouldn't they be...let's just say there are a few people who ride the subways...contrary to your "story".








KGB

Ok Van-TO....let me get this straight....according to you, Toronto's subways are "pretty much deserted" in the evenings...and even more deserted (which must be "totally" deserted then) on the weekends? Yet the Vancouver Skytrains are "almost always" full???

And for some reason there is no reason for anybody to be riding subways in Toronto???????

Unless you are taking those special subways for invisable people, as a person who has been taking the subway for decades, I find this bizarre to say the least. besides having actuall numbers that would refute this bizarre observation of yours, I have been on the subways after midnight regularily and they are full of people.

But then again why wouldn't they be...let's just say there are a few people who ride the subways...contrary to your "story".








KGB


No need for this to get heated, I believe VAN-TO was talking about the Sheppard line which indeed can get to be a ghost town. And not many people need to ride it on a daily basis.

Obviously, PT ridership in total is not in question here.

Ok Van-TO....let me get this straight....according to you, Toronto's subways are "pretty much deserted" in the evenings...and even more deserted (which must be "totally" deserted then) on the weekends? Yet the Vancouver Skytrains are "almost always" full???

And for some reason there is no reason for anybody to be riding subways in Toronto???????

Unless you are taking those special subways for invisable people, as a person who has been taking the subway for decades, I find this bizarre to say the least. besides having actuall numbers that would refute this bizarre observation of yours, I have been on the subways after midnight regularily and they are full of people.

But then again why wouldn't they be...let's just say there are a few people who ride the subways...contrary to your "story".

KGB

First, I did not say that Toronto's subways are totally deserted. Usually, I like to sit at the first/end cars, and they are usually less full than the ones in the Middle/DWA. However, the situation presented is that the subways are greatly underused in non-peak hours. ( Reason why my friends don't really see why we need to spend so much to maintain TTC...they're 905ers)

As for Vancouver's case, I did not say that the skytrain is always full, though I notice the B-line (BUSWAY!) is quite full a lot of the time. Of course, everyone knows that the bus handles way less capacity than a subway... I mostly head out to the West End at night, so I only know how busy the skytrain is during the day/rush hour.

"However, the situation presented is that the subways are greatly underused. "


Based on my own personal usage...and hard stats....that is ridiculous. But then again, it's what I expect to hear from the Vancouverites....complete nonsense.






KGB

"However, the situation presented is that the subways are greatly underused. "


Based on my own personal usage...and hard stats....that is ridiculous. But then again, it's what I expect to hear from the Vancouverites....complete nonsense.






KGB

:|

Stats please, I actually can't find my usual source and I'd be nice to post it anyway. And if this turns into Vancouver vs Toronto, I will officially go off on a rampage.

"No need for this to get heated"

Ok then....from now on people can just post whatever nonsense they want....god forbid anyone questions it. LOL!!

Why don't you just have something to add to the topic and forget about telling me what the hell I can post. Unless shit disturbing is your motive in the first place???






KGB

"However, the situation presented is that the subways are greatly underused. "


Based on my own personal usage...and hard stats....that is ridiculous. But then again, it's what I expect to hear from the Vancouverites....complete nonsense.

KGB

Actually, I'm the only person in my family that still hasn't converted to Vancouverite. Here home alone. Would love to move there, but have employment and senior year to finish.

Toronto's subways are bursting through the seems during RUSH HOUR. However, if you got day by day, hour by hour statistics, you'll see that for the rest of the time, the subway is actually not used enough... please visit the Bayview station at non-rush hours and count PT.

Also, this is not a TO vs. VAN debate, for what I know Van is not doing that much better in the public transit department. Millenium line is a great example of underused transit.

"No need for this to get heated"

Ok then....from now on people can just post whatever nonsense they want....god forbid anyone questions it. LOL!!

Why don't you just have something to add to the topic and forget about telling me what the hell I can post. Unless shit disturbing is your motive in the first place???






KGB


Post the numbers and the argument is done. Find the PT usage in VAN and TO and that's all.

"Stats please"


Ok mr rolly eyes....forget what I said...Toronto's subways are always deserted because nobody rides them. In fact, the TTC is underused period...nobody takes public transit in this city...in fact, nobody even lives here....it is all just an illusion.






KGB

"Stats please"


Ok mr rolly eyes....forget what I said...Toronto's subways are always deserted because nobody rides them. In fact, the TTC is underused period...nobody takes public transit in this city...in fact, nobody even lives here....it is all just an illusion.






KGB

This is precisely why I sometimes can't take you seriously. What's the point with strawman arguing? I certainly never claimed any of the following. What I DO claim is that, in this case, hard numbers will do a better job than arguing whether in VAN-TOs, or mine, or your experience the trains are underused or not. As far as I can see, the green line always a healthy amount of people. But these could be perceptions. Numbers, however, are less subjective.

"Stats please"


Ok mr rolly eyes....forget what I said...Toronto's subways are always deserted because nobody rides them. In fact, the TTC is underused period...nobody takes public transit in this city...in fact, nobody even lives here....it is all just an illusion.

KGB

I live near Bayview station, within walking distance, & of course I make good use of the available transit options around me... not once did I say that they are ALWAYS deserted ... I have to take the TTC during rush hour, so I know how busy it is at those times.

As for TTC's success story, I would have to say that the King streetcar line is one of the busiest lines in the city. At night, even around 11pm, there are plenty of people on it(weekends!).

Do you really think that if I post hard stats regarding off-peak subway ridership, that it would matter?






KGB

Do you really think that if I post hard stats regarding off-peak subway ridership, that it would matter?






KGB

Yes, since arguing against that is like going against windmills. Sure you can do it but why would anyone pay attention to you?

Do you really think that if I post hard stats regarding off-peak subway ridership, that it would matter?

KGB

Yes, for it would put all differences aside, and we would find out the accurate truth about the TTC's ridership, and figure out a solution for it, if there's any problem/disturbing trend.

Off-peak per-train ridership

Yonge-University-Spadina:

Midday...463
Early evening...408
Late evening...212
Saturday...405
Sunday...379




Bloor-Danforth

Midday...459
Early evening...452
Late evening...300
Saturday...443
Sunday...344




Scarborough RT

Midday...130
Early evening...122
Late evening...50
Saturday...88
Sunday...67





Sheppard

Midday...57
Early evening...68
Late evening...30
Saturday...79
Sunday...61






KGB

The Sheppard line numbers are certainly dissapointing. I suspect that the Yonge line from Eglinton to Finch has a much lower ridership than that. Luckily there's the downtown acting as a buffer zone.

"we would find out the accurate truth about the TTC's ridership, and figure out a solution for it, if there's any problem/disturbing trend."


The only disturbing trend, is the constant barrage of nonsense I have to listen to day in-day out from vancouverites and their ridiculous posts about Toronto.

Get something straight in case you have any doubts about TTC ridership....only NYC has actual ridership numbers higher than the TTC. And people do not only travel on the subway during rush hour. Unlike most cities in NA, people use PT in Toronto 24 hours a day.






KGB

"Skytrain is indeed very much a success story."

" I personally think that this technology has already failed once in Toronto."


I find it odd how Torontonians think the RT a "failure" and the Skytrain a "success", when if you look at the numbers, pound for pound, the RT outperforms the Skytrain on ridership. The RT is only 6 stations and 6.4kms long...yet it carries 42,000 on an avg weekday. Compare this to the Millennium Line, which is much bigger ( 16kms), which has 36,000 avg daily ridership.


Although in the past I have said that the RT was a failure, it isn't when it comes to ridership. In that regard it has done very well. The only failure was in not seeing that a regular T-1 would have done the job better and would have done so without having to engineer an entirely new technology.


"I still am having a hard time understanding why Vancouver is making ICTSs the backbone of their system."


Because they really don't have the kind of "mass transit" numbers to justify anything else. The skytrain is really more of a commuter transit system...a sort of mini GO Transit.

But I agree with you...you will never grow the kind of mass transit system needed by building elevated LRT's. It not bad...it will just limit the future of transit use to a certain degree.


KGB

I am no expert on the Vancouver PT system but that is what I think.


Now Salvius asked the question about whether the SkyTrain can be retrofitted for regular subway.

My position on this as somebody who studied CIV is that it is not. The system was designed for the ICTS size cars. That means turning loops would have a tight radius that regular subways could not use. The gauge of the tracks may also be incompatible. The width of the ROW both raised and below grade might not be able to accomodate subways. The big thing would be that the elevated sections would not have been designed for the much heavier loads that they would experienced under the load of a T-1 while in transit and in transition from start and stop.


(Just a thought but how the hell did a thread about TO's Sheppard line turn into a debate about the skytrain?)

"we would find out the accurate truth about the TTC's ridership, and figure out a solution for it, if there's any problem/disturbing trend."


The only disturbing trend, is the constant barrage of nonsense I have to listen to day in-day out from vancouverites and their ridiculous posts about Toronto.

Get something straight in case you have any doubts about TTC ridership....only NYC has actual ridership numbers higher than the TTC. And people do not only travel on the subway during rush hour. Unlike most cities in NA, people use PT in Toronto 24 hours a day.

KGB

lolz, It's funny that you label a Torontonian who is concerned with TTC's ridership numbers as a Vancouverite. I guess I'll have to take that as a compliment, for being a Vancouverite is great! (At least that's what my l'il bro says) TTC is in a fiscal straitjacket, Toronto's in piles of debt, and Ontario has just dug into one, so do you think increased ridership might actually help its finances? By first pointing out our problems, we can work towards a solution that is not only beneficial to TTC, but to all Torontonians.

Also, what's the point of being number one/two in ridership, or beating Vancouver? The point is that with our current system, ridership can still go up, and in the end it equates to more revenue for the TTC. Remember last time Toronto didn't get enough funding? They proposed closing RT & the Sheppard line... either PT costs ridiculous amounts of money to run(cannot be justified by Ontarians outside of Toronto), or there wasn't enough ridership money coming in to the system.

"The Sheppard line numbers are certainly dissapointing. "


Well...of course it is...are you never hear to point out anything positive regarding Toronto? LOL!!!


FYI...they aren't actually as bad as they look...these stats were taken 5 months after the line opened....ridership has beeb steadily increasing since then. And let's not forget one teeny little minor detail....there are about 400 million fuking condos being built on that line.






KGB

"I suspect that the Yonge line from Eglinton to Finch has a much lower ridership than that. "


Hey...I have a fabulous idea...why dont Y O U provide a stat or two to back up all your claims once and a while?

And no....believe it or not...there are people on the subways from Eglinton to Finch.






KGB

"The Sheppard line numbers are certainly dissapointing. "


Well...of course it is...are you never hear to point out anything positive regarding Toronto? LOL!!!


FYI...they aren't actually as bad as they look...these stats were taken 5 months after the line opened....ridership has beeb steadily increasing since then. And let's not forget one teeny little minor detail....there are about 400 million fuking condos being built on that line.

KGB

If there are so many condos on the Sheppard line, where have they been hiding. All I see (excluding Yonge) is a couple of new condos near Bayview Village, and a bunch of apartments left from the last three decades.

"I suspect that the Yonge line from Eglinton to Finch has a much lower ridership than that. "


Hey...I have a fabulous idea...why dont Y O U provide a stat or two to back up all your claims once and a while?

And no....believe it or not...there are people on the subways from Eglinton to Finch.

KGB

Yes, there are people on it, and I'm one of them. I doubt there are those stats available, so I'm not going to dwell there. ... as for suspect, it does not mean I'm asserting a fact... it means that according to my daily rides, there does not seem to be 400 people per subway train.

"Toronto's in piles of debt"

You know...you guys keep posting nonsense...and then blame me when I have to point it out.

If you are such a concerned "Toronto" citizen, then perhaps your first duty in your quest to do good for your beloved Toronto (as opposed to not being a Vancouverite...LOL ), would be to understand what you are talking about before running around talking like you have a clue.

No...Toronto is not in piles of debt...you know why? Because by law it cannot run a deficit...and must have a balanced budget every year.

So no...it is not in debt.

Would you like me to give you a real example of what "piles of debt" looks like?

Take Berlin... that city has a municipal debt of $81 billion Cdn.

That my friend, is what a municipal government pile of debt looks like.



I'm concerned with the health of this city as well....but having to listen to people pretend the sky is falling is not the way to go about it.






KGB

"Toronto's in piles of debt"

You know...you guys keep posting nonsense...and then blame me when I have to point it out.

If you are such a concerned "Toronto" citizen, then perhaps your first duty in your quest to do good for your beloved Toronto (as opposed to not being a Vancouverite...LOL ), would be to understand what you are talking about before running around talking like you have a clue.

No...Toronto is not in piles of debt...you know why? Because by law it cannot run a deficit...and must have a balanced budget every year.

So no...it is not in debt.

Would you like me to give you a real example of what "piles of debt" looks like?

Take Berlin... that city has a municipal debt of $81 billion Cdn.

That my friend, is what a municipal government pile of debt looks like.



I'm concerned with the health of this city as well....but having to listen to people pretend the sky is falling is not the way to go about it.

KGB

"As of December 31, 2000 the City's total debt amount was forecasted to be $1.8 billion (gross). While this amount is considered to be manageable today by comparison with other municipalities, it will double in five years unless capital expenditures are reduced or alternative and sustainable forms of financing are identified." This is from City of Toronto's (http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/budget2001/credit_rating.htm) website.

"If there are so many condos on the Sheppard line, where have they been hiding. "


Oh yea....forget i said that...my mistake....there are no developments on the Sheppard line. I should know better to question your imagination...and I should just ignore facts.






KGB

Of course the city always has a running capital debt. That's just normal. And the amount is very small. Hardly the big crisis you were trying pass off as one of your ridiculous "facts".

My advice would be to think a little more carefully before you post. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean someone won't trip you up.






KGB

"If there are so many condos on the Sheppard line, where have they been hiding. "


Oh yea....forget i said that...my mistake....there are no developments on the Sheppard line. I should know better to question your imagination...and I should just ignore facts.

KGB

Are there more than 5 condo projects being built on the Sheppard line right now (excluding Yonge)? I didn't see them.... Are you from this area.. or you get all your info from a mysterious source. ...

Of course the city always has a running capital debt. That's just normal. And the amount is very small. Hardly the big crisis you were trying pass off as one of your ridiculous "facts".

My advice would be to think a little more carefully before you post. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean someone won't trip you up.

KGB

Why would you think that Capital debt is not important? Our credit rating is currently lower than Peel, York and Durham, and it could greatly limit our access to needed money in the future. Our roads has potholes (Toronto Star), & TTC is underfunded, yet our debt is going to double. Think about how fast capital debt will grow if funding actually increased.

Also, do we want to end up like Berlin? We already went through that with Canada's federal budget, which stayed in the red till the 90s.

"Future capital expenditures for infrastructure, including public transit which faces increased needs, will be difficult to manage within Toronto's property tax regime, unless the province and/or federal government provides the City with new sources of revenues." The Dominion Bond Rating Service

"Capital budget demands, mainly stemming from growth and from neglected maintenance and necessary improvements in transportation infrastructure, are making increasing demands on the City's budget." Standard and Poors

I think you are confusing the need for more revenue (and what city doesn't) with debt loads. You were the one who incinuated Toronto was sattled with a "pile of debt"...that is BS...just admit when you are wrong.


And there are millions of square feet of new development along the Sheppard Line.






KGB

Fraser institute

Hog Town Last at the Trough Says New Study (fraser institute)
Contact(s):
Mark Mullins, Director of Ontario Policy Studies
The Fraser Institute, Tel (416) 363-6575, ext 225
Email: markm@fraserinstitute.ca

Click here for the complete publication.

Release Date: May 12, 2004

Toronto, ON - Residents of Toronto and its suburbs pay out almost $24 billion more in taxes than they receive in spending from all levels of government, an outflow of more than $13,000 per household, according to Share the Wealth: Who Pays for Government Across Ontario? released today by The Fraser Institute.

That is more than enough money for Toronto’s urban taxpayers to bankroll the entire federal government surplus and the annual savings of the Canada Pension Plan by themselves, and still leave billions in excess taxes.

“People love to hate Toronto,” says Mark Mullins, the Institute’s Director of Ontario Policy Studies. “But there is no doubt that this urban area is the pounding heart of government finance in this province and in this country. The net tax outflow is enormous, equal to more than ten percent of the Greater Toronto Area economy. And it is Toronto’s suburbs that are carrying the heaviest burden.”

The report also concludes that the average Ontario household bears a net tax burden of over $4,500 to pay for transfers to other provinces through federal government taxation and spending programs.

“These results raise serious questions about the structure of the fiscal system,” says Mullins. “Will we raise our living standards by transferring billions every year from highly productive individuals and companies? Are we handicapping our growing cities through excessive taxation? Is this degree of subsidization best for our future well-being? What is the right level of fiscal sharing between communities?”

The Toronto City Summit Alliance and the Toronto Board of Trade have been very active with a public campaign called "Enough of Not Enough." These groups argue that some portion of Toronto's $9 billion in excess taxes should be recouped and spent on public transit, waterfront development, and social housing. The groups also want to establish new taxing authority for municipalities.

Fraser Institute (http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=603)

I think you are confusing the need for more revenue (and what city doesn't) with debt loads. You were the one who incinuated Toronto was sattled with a "pile of debt"...that is BS...just admit when you are wrong.


And there are millions of square feet of new development along the Sheppard Line.

KGB

The point is that if revenues do not increase, the debt will ! Maybe I should have said "heading deep in the red" ... what ever the case, Toronto will end up with a big pile of debt if no viable solution is found. :bash:

"Also, do we want to end up like Berlin? "


That would be impossible. But it sure sounds like the usual line from you "sky-is-falling types. Berlin even has to shut off fountains because they can't afford to run them.

I love to talk sensibly about urban issues...but talking about it with people who are just unrealistic is a bore.

Toronto has a problem maintaining all it's amenities and infastructure, because we have an ENORMOUS amount of it....we could illiminate half of our municipal amentinites and still have more than New York City. The city has also become fairly adept at being efficient at running them...because they have no choice. But the fact of the matter is, the cost of maintaining all this infastructure and amenities just keeps getting more and more costlier. The only real way of maintaining this is to have outside influences stop sucking quite so much money out of the city.

You see, the feds and the province also have increasing costs to worry about...and they really don't want to have to decrease the number of golden eggs they have gotten used to taking from good ole TO over the last 200 years.






KGB

"Maybe I should have said "heading deep in the red" ... what ever the case, Toronto will end up with a big pile of debt if no viable solution is found"


Oh...now you are changing your story.

Well, sorry, but you haven't changed it enough...you really should learn to leave well enough alone.

Ok...so what do you base your new story about how Toronto is heading into this "pile of debt" ?

And no...the city does not have to incur giant debt at all. It can just cut capital spending.






KGB

"Also, do we want to end up like Berlin? "


That would be impossible. But it sure sounds like the usual line from you "sky-is-falling types. Berlin even has to shut off fountains because they can't afford to run them.

I love to talk sensibly about urban issues...but talking about it with people who are just unrealistic is a bore.

Toronto has a problem maintaining all it's amenities and infastructure, because we have an ENORMOUS amount of it....we could illiminate half of our municipal amentinites and still have more than New York City. The city has also become fairly adept at being efficient at running them...because they have no choice. But the fact of the matter is, the cost of maintaining all this infastructure and amenities just keeps getting more and more costlier. The only real way of maintaining this is to have outside influences stop sucking quite so much money out of the city.

You see, the feds and the province also have increasing costs to worry about...and they really don't want to have to decrease the number of golden eggs they have gotten used to taking from good ole TO over the last 200 years.

KGB

The problem, as I stated from the beginning is that Toronto is not willing to supply the resources the TTC needs because it's in a tight fiscal position. That's the point I've been trying to get across since the beginning. Don't know why you think that's unrealistic... but maybe you'll finally care about the budget will we hit shocking new highs in debt.

Also, no way would we have more amenities than NYC after eliminating half of it. NYC includes four boroughs, and that put together is much bigger than TO.

Money doesn't grow on trees, debt doesn't just dissapear, & consequences only become too painful to bear when we're stuck in a jam.

Stop this nonsensical jingle that you keep chugging, for you seem to be a freewheeling spender who knows no limits.

"Maybe I should have said "heading deep in the red" ... what ever the case, Toronto will end up with a big pile of debt if no viable solution is found"


Oh...now you are changing your story.

Well, sorry, but you haven't changed it enough...you really should learn to leave well enough alone.

Ok...so what do you base your new story about how Toronto is heading into this "pile of debt" ?

And no...the city does not have to incur giant debt at all. It can just cut capital spending.

KGB

So far, cutbacks has not curbed the growth of debt and it has left the city with more potholes and aging transit infrastructure. Can we cut anymore?

I sorry to hear that you don't find today's debtload alarming, but to your delight, it will undoubtely increase.

The problem, as I stated from the beginning is that [B]Toronto is not willing to supply the resources the TTC needs because it's in a tight fiscal position.


If Toronto got even a fraction of the money back it gives out to the rest of the country (which is why it is in a tight fiscal position), the TTC would have gold trains and a subway line under each street.

"but maybe you'll finally care about the budget will we hit shocking new highs in debt."


I love the way you preach to me about stuff. LOL!!

Dude...I'm not even discussing municipal spending...I am just responding to your uninformed speeches about things you obviously have no clue about. I mean com'on...pretty much every statement you have made I've proven a pile of hogwash.

And no...as I have already said, the city's debt is not "alarming" at all....this is something only a person like you who I can only guess gets a kick out of apllying a sky-is-falling approach to talking about Toronto.

I suggest you just packe up and move back out to Van before Toronto slips into Lake Ontario.






Wanna see how every time you type some words...I can show you don't have the first clue about what you are trying to pass off as fact?



"Also, no way would we have more amenities than NYC after eliminating half of it. NYC includes four boroughs, and that put together is much bigger than TO. "


Wanna bet?

Yes...I am already aware that NYC includes the boroughs...ever been there...I have.

So...do you want me to tell you why Toronto has many more amenities than NYC does, despite it being a city of 8 million?

I'll give you a hint...that city is bankrupt....again. It can't afford the kind of amenities that Toronto has.







"Stop this nonsensical jingle that you keep chugging"


You have a lot of nerve using that line on me, given I'm the one providing facts that counter your fanatsies.







KGB

"Skytrain is indeed very much a success story."

" I personally think that this technology has already failed once in Toronto."


I find it odd how Torontonians think the RT a "failure" and the Skytrain a "success", when if you look at the numbers, pound for pound, the RT outperforms the Skytrain on ridership. The RT is only 6 stations and 6.4kms long...yet it carries 42,000 on an avg weekday. Compare this to the Millennium Line, which is much bigger ( 16kms), which has 36,000 avg daily ridership.



I wasn't necessarily talking ridership, I should apologize for not being clear, I was referring more to the technological and implementation of the system. The technologies are similar, but the SkyTrain had some more throught put into it on safety and maintenance angles as well as operating efficiency. All of this stuff looks great on paper. Does it generate more riders? No, certainly not on its own, that depends widely on other municipal/surrounding area issues. Vancouver's population wouldn't allow SkyTrain to really top ridership of a Toronto train line anyway, but true, it is amazing that the RT does actually have higher ridership for such a significantly shorter line.



As for the dissapointing Sheppard numbers, let's keep in mind - a) it does not go anywhere, and because of this fact, it b) runs only 4-car trains, and c) development is in the works. Don Mills is seeing a lot of development going on - as is obviously Yonge, no contesting has been done on that, the amount on Beacroft alone is incredible. I haven't gotten off at any of the other stations myself, so I haven't seen this first hand, but I've heard Bessarion and Bayview are getting a good chunk. I don't know what is going on with Leslie, but you've got 2.5 highways and a GO Station sitting there... yeah :/.

For those wondering why YUS has less ridership than BD, I'd bet the numbers would be different if it was just the Yonge line. The source of the lower numbers per train is probably a result of including the Spadina Line ridership since they all run the same trains for one-seat service.

Thanks for posting the numbers KGB. Certainly confirmed my thoughts, especially about the green line which always seems to be quite busy to me. Sheppard is obviously not profitable at this point. BUT, the ridership has nowhere to go but up.

The numbers also show the following theory about the subways mostly being used at rush hours and underused at off-peak hours to also be incorrect.


"Toronto's subways are bursting through the seems during RUSH HOUR. However, if you got day by day, hour by hour statistics, you'll see that for the rest of the time, the subway is actually not used enough"


In fact, the vast majority of subway ridership occurs during off-peak hours. Why?...well, obviously there are a lot more off-peak hours than there are rush hours...and for the simple reason people use public transit for a lot more than just going to and from work.

And what does "not used enough" mean? Do people expect (or even want) the subways to be as packed (over-packed) as they are during rush hours? Of course not. And since a 6-car T-1 train has 396 seats, and the off-peak hours show ridership to be around that or even more, obviously having enough riders to fill every seat would realistically be considered "enough".

Even off-peak hours have their own little "peak-periods", as anyone crammed on a late-night subway thur-sat.






KGB

"I don't know what is going on with Leslie, but you've got 2.5 highways and a GO Station sitting there... yeah "


Actually, Leslie station is going to see one of the largest developments on the line....the Cdn Tire site will see over 4000 residential units in 20 buildings, plus a 20-storey office building...plus a 130,000 sqft Cdn Tire Store. The station is already surrounded by office buildings, lots of residential (north side) and a major hospital.

I always considered it the "Ikea Station". LOL!!






KGB

the Cdn Tire site will see over 4000 residential units in 20 buildings, plus a 20-storey office building...plus a 130,000 sqft Cdn Tire Store

They seem to be taking their time getting approval out of City Hall. The Canadian Tire store seems to have a number of other retail items moving in, but it would be nice to see a residential building or two go up for sale.

I always considered it the "Ikea Station". LOL!!


Yeah, I knew about the Ikea, my mom considers it the Ikea Station too :cheers:

Cool scoop though, thanks for filling in the blank!

To get more bang for their buck they will have to extend the line.

Shane Baghai's St. Gabes project should be moving into sales soon - it's just north of Sheppard near the Shep-Bayview intersection.

Another project at Bayview village is moving along.

NY Towers - Empire is up to about 26 stories now, Rockefeller is doing the underground work. Info about the next phase should be available in the coming months.

The is a small office project in the Shep-Leslie Area

The hospital at Sheppard Leslie was recently expanded....

so there is a ton of development going on in the subway corridor.

Any recent ridership numbers for the Sheppard subway? How about the Spadina/University line?

wow, way to bring this thread back to life....lol
Since it's back up though, while I can think of many better places for a subway line than Sheppard East, I'm still satisified that it has been built (as opposed to nothing at all). The densification starting to happen along Sheppard recently is proof of the importance of subway lines in this city.

Any recent ridership numbers for the Sheppard subway? How about the Spadina/University line?

I've never seen numbers for the Spadina/University segment. You can get the number of people using each station individually, but you need to somehow remove from those numbers the ones taking a bus instead, and the ones that enter and exit on the same line (if both entry and exit are counted for a single trip).

May 12th, 2004
http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f2057/_conv.htm

More transit trips are now being made along the Sheppard Avenue corridor, between Yonge Street and Don Mills Road, than was the case before the Sheppard Subway opened. Including both bus and subway passengers, approximately 41,650 customer-trips are made each weekday (13,500 Saturdays and 10,900 on Sundays) between Sheppard-Yonge Station and Don Mills Station.

This compares to 25,400 customer-trips each weekday (12,300 on Saturdays and 9,400 on Sundays) before the Sheppard Subway opened. The majority of trips in this corridor, and all of the increase in trips, are made on the Sheppard Subway, not on the remaining 85 Sheppard East bus service.

I take Sheppard periodically and can say that the numbers are noticeably higher than at the time the above report was published. Even Bessarion seems to have a few people on the platform now instead of being barren. I believe they've also reduced the train frequencies a touch (which makes it appear more crowded).

I would guess it's closer to 50k per weekday now -- or about the same as the SRT. Keep in mind the SRT is overcrowded with that number, so for Sheppard to be anything but a full fledged subway would be difficult today, and probably impossible in 2015 -- even without an extension.

You know, you'd think the planners in this city would be doing everything within their power to direct new developments towards Sheppard East. The infastructure is in place but underused, and new residents in the area would help bring the subway into profitability.

True, but the stops are sooo far apart compared to all other lines, personally i think that the idea of those NYC style stops(being added in the middle of an existing line) is a good one and should be put into effect for the sheppard line and some parts of the yonge line for further densification to happen - although im sure this will never happen as long as there is no money(and probly even if there is money)

I read on the subway that there are gonna b 800 new busses ariving daily untill 2007 - thats good news for anybody who takes bus routes everyday, but im wondering if they are the same design as the busses which have the stairs to get to the back or if theyre different

True, but the stops are sooo far apart compared to all other lines, personally i think that the idea of those NYC style stops(being added in the middle of an existing line) is a good one and should be put into effect for the sheppard line and some parts of the yonge line for further densification to happen - although im sure this will never happen as long as there is no money(and probly even if there is money)

I read on the subway that there are gonna b 800 new busses ariving daily untill 2007 - thats good news for anybody who takes bus routes everyday, but im wondering if they are the same design as the busses which have the stairs to get to the back or if theyre different

True, but the stops are sooo far apart compared to all other lines, personally i think that the idea of those NYC style stops(being added in the middle of an existing line) is a good one and should be put into effect for the sheppard line and some parts of the yonge line for further densification to happen - although im sure this will never happen as long as there is no money(and probly even if there is money)

I read on the subway that there are gonna b 800 new busses ariving daily untill 2007 - thats good news for anybody who takes bus routes everyday, but im wondering if they are the same design as the busses which have the stairs to get to the back or if theyre different

True, but the stops are sooo far apart compared to all other lines, personally i think that the idea of those NYC style stops(being added in the middle of an existing line) is a good one and should be put into effect for the sheppard line and some parts of the yonge line for further densification to happen - although im sure this will never happen as long as there is no money(and probly even if there is money)

I read on the subway that there are gonna b 800 new busses ariving daily untill 2007 - thats good news for anybody who takes bus routes everyday, but im wondering if they are the same design as the busses which have the stairs to get to the back or if theyre different

True, but the stops are sooo far apart compared to all other lines, personally i think that the idea of those NYC style stops(being added in the middle of an existing line) is a good one and should be put into effect for the sheppard line and some parts of the yonge line for further densification to happen - although im sure this will never happen as long as there is no money(and probly even if there is money)

I read on the subway that there are gonna b 800 new busses ariving daily untill 2007 - thats good news for anybody who takes bus routes everyday, but im wondering if they are the same design as the busses which have the stairs to get to the back or if theyre different

True, but the stops are sooo far apart compared to all other lines, personally i think that the idea of those NYC style stops(being added in the middle of an existing line) is a good one and should be put into effect for the sheppard line and some parts of the yonge line for further densification to happen - although im sure this will never happen as long as there is no money(and probly even if there is money)

I read on the subway that there are gonna b 800 new busses ariving daily untill 2007 - thats good news for anybody who takes bus routes everyday, but im wondering if they are the same design as the busses which have the stairs to get to the back or if theyre different

What the hell happend, did your enter button break?

Anywayz if Toronto had trillions of dollars to spare (This is fantasy I'm not delusional), I would put subways along every route that expiriances the least of traffic problems. (Jane St, Eglinton e-w, St. Clair e-w, queen e-w, king e-w...) The city would get so dense it would be unbeleivable...But this is just fantasy, prolly wudnt work anyway.

my comp was way messed up - i donno why or how that happened

Does anyone know when the TTC releases their annual ridership reports, or if they even do?

Does anyone know when the TTC releases their annual ridership reports, or if they even do?

Surface routes have that kind of information published regularly, but subway routes are a rare occurrance as they probably base those numbers on the farebox, and could be fairly inaccurrate.

Sheppards numbers have appeared twice. The second count was done because of SARS. I'm not expecting new numbers for quite a while.

What the hell happend, did your enter button break?

Anywayz if Toronto had trillions of dollars to spare (This is fantasy I'm not delusional), I would put subways along every route that expiriances the least of traffic problems. .

Money aside, are you still fantasizing? Just because an intersection is busy, doesn't mean it is a prime candidate for a subway. You have to look at where people originate and their destination.

Does anyone know when the TTC releases their annual ridership reports, or if they even do?

They did but Sheppard subway was not on the list. The ridership numbers for the surface routes were pretty much the same for most routes as they were last year. I'll post the report up on here later if anyone is interested.

True, but the stops are sooo far apart compared to all other lines, personally i think that the idea of those NYC style stops(being added in the middle of an existing line) is a good one and should be put into effect for the sheppard line and some parts of the yonge line for further densification to happen - although im sure this will never happen as long as there is no money(and probly even if there is money)

I read on the subway that there are gonna b 800 new busses ariving daily untill 2007 - thats good news for anybody who takes bus routes everyday, but im wondering if they are the same design as the busses which have the stairs to get to the back or if theyre different

I do too, I'd even like the mid-block stations on the Yonge Line between York Mills and Eglinton, at least between Lawrence and Eglinton. Also, Willowdale between Bayview and Yonge-Sheppard on the Sheppard line.