In this thread, it's:

http://monstersnap.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/all_about_steve.jpg

Sorry but that is one sh*t film :ohno::ohno:

^^"No strings attached" is a must see. Laughed my fecking ass off, which was quite embarasing when everyone else on the plane keeps looking round at you.

Anyway, nice to see the pool finished and filled with water. My, how it has shrunk. Guess there will be no more slagging off of The Jewels pool now:D

They should have put two of those little plunge pools either side of the main pool at the left hand end :lol:

That's bollocks! I supose it might look nice with all the palm trees moved to that end also;)

Sorry but that is one sh*t film :ohno::ohno:

Who gives a sh*t how that movie was? :lol:

Imre - I get the feeling the kitchen was an after thought in the 2 bedder. Did you get that feeling when in the apartment? I am wandering if it only comes across in the photos.

Looks like to me it needs an island unit or something...

Who gives a sh*t how that movie was? :lol:

Sorry were off subject but it WAS really bad , you should watch it to see too :lol:

BTW anyone know if a COMPLETION CERTICATE for the TORCH is in existance ? or can folks occupy without this certificate ?

From my earlier post (no.999):

As for the request for the copy of the occupancy certificate from Dubai Municipality (DM), please note that this is a private document to the company and we will not be able to share this document with you. However, I can reconfirm that the building is ready and the occupancy certificate was received on 17th May 2011.


This may not be the same as a 'Completion Certificate' though!


Question: HAS ANYONE BEEN ALLOWED HANDOVER WITHOUT SIGNING ANY OF THE ADDENDUMS?

Sorry were off subject but it WAS really bad , you should watch it to see too :lol:

I have seen it. It's still making the rounds on OSN

Sorry were off subject but it WAS really bad , you should watch it to see too :lol:

BTW anyone know if a COMPLETION CERTICATE for the TORCH is in existance ? or can folks occupy without this certificate ?

A 'Completion Certificate' from Select is given to the owner upon handover. Select say that an occupation certificate is in place otherwise people would not be allowed to move in. They won't show the certificate from RERA. God knows what they are hiding. Maybe the certificate has some clauses attached which they are sorting out and a full cert will follow :dunno:

One thing I do know is that I have learnt more about this company from the local grape vine in 6 days than I have in 6 years.

[QUOTE=FlyJim;
Question: HAS ANYONE BEEN ALLOWED HANDOVER WITHOUT SIGNING ANY OF THE ADDENDUMS?[/QUOTE]

If anyone has they won't admit to it. It's the way Select and some people on here work. They shout, scream and jump up and down; then suddenly they get a deal and all goes quiet.

^^ Hope you are not thinking of me here; I am going all the way and always warned everyone about Select but no one would listen. The only reason I paused in the past was to respect a few people I care about, they were very worried about their investment. Now the Tower is built, I owe nothing to nobody. RERA are on my Target list too if they don't perform :cheers:

^^ Hope you are not thinking of me here; I am going all the way and always warned everyone about Select but no one would listen. The only reason I paused in the past was to respect a few people I care about, they were very worried about their investment. Now the Tower is built, I owe nothing to nobody. RERA are on my Target list too if they don't perform :cheers:

No Mackie, these are people I know have done deals with Select in one form or another and a gagging order has always been part of the deal.

I am confident there is a bigger fish than Mr Aslam involved here. This whole deal with Emril stinks of someone else pulling strings. I may have also stumbled upon the reason behind Select UK being a totally separate and distinct entity but that is total hearsay at the moment and I am trying to get more information.

^^ Hope you are not thinking of me here; I am going all the way and always warned everyone about Select but no one would listen. The only reason I paused in the past was to respect a few people I care about, they were very worried about their investment. Now the Tower is built, I owe nothing to nobody. RERA are on my Target list too if they don't perform :cheers:

If you have the time and resources go get em, I would. Unfortunately I have neither.

I am confident there is a bigger fish than Mr Aslam involved here. This whole deal with Emril stinks of someone else pulling strings.

I wonder if this is why Select Property (UK) told me that the owner/investor wishes to remain anonymous when I reserved my unit many years ago now?

Hi Torchers,

Can anyone tell me if the Tenancy Agreement that select need you to sign applies to all investors or only those on the LPP.

Thanks

Does anyone know the exact position regarding registration costs of ready apartments in Dubai Marina at the time of handover? Is it 1% buyer and 1% developer, or does the SPA dictate who pays these charges, i.e. the buyer pays the full 2%?
A definitive answer would be much appreciated if such a thing exists! Thanks.

1 % seller , 1 % buyer

and 250 dhs for the title deed

http://www.rpdubai.com/rpdubai/fg?f=DaFD6buDFunTim9885A7Nu9lzfurwomL1TSA5bIPpx5fq0G4KuRDnH%2FGjdVSuVxG

This is the law but some developers above the law..

Thanks Imre.

I am anticipating our final invoice from Cayan.

Maybe we should wait until these come out in around 14 days time?? And see what they charge for. What do you think?

There must be some recourse if the developer decides to ignore the law???

Any thoughts welcome? Thanks.

1 % seller , 1 % buyer

and 250 dhs for the title deed

http://www.rpdubai.com/rpdubai/fg?f=DaFD6buDFunTim9885A7Nu9lzfurwomL1TSA5bIPpx5fq0G4KuRDnH%2FGjdVSuVxG

This is the law but some developers above the law..

Thanks Imre.

I am anticipating our final invoice from Cayan.

Maybe we should wait until these come out in around 14 days time?? And see what they charge for. What do you think?

There must be some recourse if the developer decides to ignore the law???

Any thoughts welcome? Thanks.

Very little recourse. You could take them to court, but you would spend a lot of money for an uncertain outcome. If they don't ask you registration money at handover, then you might decide not to go for registration now... maybe in the future the law will change again.

Anyway, since the area of the apartment is stated in square feet in the current title deed and UAE is moving to square meters in January, you may want to wait until then in any case. If you get it now maybe the government will ask you to pay an additional fee to have it rewritten correctly next year...

You can go to the RERA and complain but I think just waste of time.

Developers know RERA is “waste of time”, that’s why they misuse the system.

http://i54.tinypic.com/15hbqkn.jpg

The above could explain the new oqood charges? due to the change in numbering after you sign the first variation.

Looks like they have to be paid. Well at least they are not AED 5000 that Cayan are charging.


How am I going to get out of 5000AED oqood charges?

How am I going to get out of 5000AED oqood charges?

Have you paid your law 13 fees?

Never been asked to pay any.

Never been asked to pay any.

You will probably have to pay it on completion. 1% of purchase price.

How am I going to get out of 5000AED oqood charges?

The actual fee is only 1000AED,,

now if the unit isn't registered with Oqood,,

how can they cancel it?

05/June/2011

The Torch interior photos

High floor 2 BR unit nr 05

http://i52.tinypic.com/jicj2r.jpg

Album:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imresolt/sets/72157626889047698/

UNIT NR 06 (Guess who is the owner ?:) :cheers:

http://i55.tinypic.com/2z6cxkx.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imresolt/sets/72157626764481475/

:cheers::cheers:

05/June/2011

The view from The Torch

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3642/5799833282_072249528a_o.jpg

What is the point of all these pictures?
If SG can demand service charges without RERA's approval than surely they can handover the keys without final inspection certificate.
BTW has any one seen this certificate and if so why are SG so reluctant to disclose it? I recall ManUTD saying that the Point project have had many fire incidents long after the handover.:ohno:

What is the point of all these pictures?
If SG can demand service charges without RERA's approval than surely they can handover the keys without final inspection certificate.
BTW has any one seen this certificate and if so why are SG so reluctant to disclose it? I recall ManUTD saying that the Point project have had many fire incidents long after the handover.:ohno:

The pictures are the only good news these days please dont deny us that.
As for your other points I think it is established that Select think and do whatever they want. It really is outrageous

What is the point of all these pictures?
If SG can demand service charges without RERA's approval than surely they can handover the keys without final inspection certificate.
BTW has any one seen this certificate and if so why are SG so reluctant to disclose it? I recall ManUTD saying that the Point project have had many fire incidents long after the handover.:ohno:

^^
What your really meant to say is:

'Thank you very much Imre. Over the last few years you have done a fantastic job of keeping us updated. Excellent photos. Keep up the good work!'

No? :bash:

^^
What your really meant to say is:

'Thank you very much Imre. Over the last few years you have done a fantastic job of keeping us updated. Excellent photos. Keep up the good work!'

No? :bash:

Obviuosly IMRE has done a fantastic job of keeping us up to date over the years but probably pictures are best suited to TORCH thread --this thread is a discussion thread on how best investors are able to avoid being shafted by slightly dodgy tactics when handing apartnments over to owners etc -thats my reading of it anyway ?

If you have the time and resources go get em, I would. Unfortunately I have neither.

I will.

I know I said in the past that groups do not work but, I have been persuaded by a small group of 18 people I trust to join forces and share knowledge. I am still going it alone but will co-operate with those strong minded individuals all the way.

I have also been persuaded to join them in the legal action here in the UK!

I will leave it to them to make themselves known :cheers:

Obviuosly IMRE has done a fantastic job of keeping us up to date over the years but probably pictures are best suited to TORCH thread --this thread is a discussion thread on how best investors are able to avoid being shafted by slightly dodgy tactics when handing apartnments over to owners etc -thats my reading of it anyway ?

Totally Agree :cheers:

Hi Mackie,
........... snip. If you have any evidence that there are shenanagens involved re. Select, backhanders, deceit or other please pm me and let me know.
Psofos.

I will.

I will also publish a few facts / evidence on here soon if the Mods do not mind :dunno: SP usually go running to the Admin complaining and removing things :ohno:

EZYj6PNdg6Y

One of the apartments, posted quite a few months back.

[QUOTE=234sale;79142744]EZYj6PNdg6Y

One of the apartments, posted quite a few months back.[/QU


There is no way that is 162m2 as it should be

Has anyone taken possession of a 3 bed.

Please PM me

I will.

I will also publish a few facts / evidence on here soon if the Mods do not mind :dunno: SP usually go running to the Admin complaining and removing things :ohno:

If your post gets removed you can PM it to me and I'll make sure it gets to at least 100 other Select customers

I will.

I know I said in the past that groups do not work but, I have been persuaded by a small group of 18 people I trust to join forces and share knowledge. I am still going it alone but will co-operate with those strong minded individuals all the way.

I have also been persuaded to join them in the legal action here in the UK!

I will leave it to them to make themselves known :cheers:

This is good news! I am sure other select investors will be interested! I know the bay central investors are watching and listening!

Please read this article which highlights the forthcoming Laws in Dubai

New Property Laws in Dubai for 2011

Monday, 24 January 2011 08:27, Editor

Reportedly, the Dubai government will implement new laws in 2011 to strengthen the real estate market.
Reason for implementing new regulations:
During recession, the global economic crisis caused major setbacks to the property markets all over the world and Dubai was no exception. Due to the slow growth of the Dubai property market, the economy was also getting affected and this called for the need to implement new regulations. Last year witnessed delays in the implementation of most of the property laws in Dubai; however, 2011 is being expected to be good for Dubai real estate.
Stages of Dubai property valuation:
It is being said that the real estate valuation law will be very soon implemented in the Dubai property market. The remaining work on this law was completed in 2010 and now it is ready to be imposed. There will be two stages under which the regulations will be adopted for property valuation professionals. In the first stage it will be made compulsory for Dubai real estate valuation companies to obtain a valid trade license. This will help the investors make an informed decision as to which company should be contacted for property related matters.
The second stage of the real estate valuation law will ensure that these companies not only obtain the license in a legal manner but also register their names with the Taqyeem at the Dubai Land Department. The best part about this regulation is that it will be getting ample support from the Emirates Book Valuation Standards (EBVS).
A new law to protect the rights of real estate investors will also be implemented this year in Dubai. The main aim behind this law would be helping investors protect their rights and avoid any deal with developers involved in illegal construction activities.
http://alldubaiproperty.com/real-estate-news/2-news/184-new-property-laws-in-dubai-for-2011.html

I will.

I will also publish a few facts / evidence on here soon if the Mods do not mind :dunno: SP usually go running to the Admin complaining and removing things :ohno:

Not the scope of this forum, keep 'em in private

Not the scope of this forum, keep 'em in private

or ALTIN will kick shiny ass :lol:

Mackie have pm'd you for info if you don't sharing info ? cheers

Hi all,
I'm on the lpp and would anyone know when we would get a title deed. Is it in effect when the developer is no longer owed anything or would it be at the handover stage?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to get a mortgage to pay the developer off and they are asking If I have title deed to the property.

Hi all,
I'm on the lpp and would anyone know when we would get a title deed. Is it in effect when the developer is no longer owed anything or would it be at the handover stage?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to get a mortgage to pay the developer off and they are asking If I have title deed to the property.

Are you trying UK or Dubai for your mortgage?

Hi all,
I'm on the lpp and would anyone know when we would get a title deed. Is it in effect when the developer is no longer owed anything or would it be at the handover stage?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to get a mortgage to pay the developer off and they are asking If I have title deed to the property.

DEVELOPER WILL OWN TITLE DEED UNTIL LTPP PAID OFF -- OR WHOEVER HE SELLS LTPP ON TO THAT IS (ASSUMING THEY DO THAT I GUESS)

VERY DOUBTFULL YOU WILL GET MORTRGAGE ON DUBAI PROPERTY -BEST TO RAISE AGINST UK ASSET IF POSS

Thanks for the responses. It's Dubai where im trying to get mortgage.

Has anyone had any positive responses from RERA re the problems with the Torch / Select yet ?

Thanks for the responses. It's Dubai where im trying to get mortgage.

Are you trying Barclays? I believe they do mortgages in Dubai but I'm not sure if Select are on the approved developers list or not?? I think there are only 4 or so on the list and I can't remember who they are

You will struggle to get a mortgage in the UAE unless you are a resident.

Barclays do provide mortgages to expats but at the moment they are only on Villa's and only with certain developers.

Thanks for the responses. It's Dubai where im trying to get mortgage.

MASHREQ were supplying morgages on SELECT property --not sure how it works with the LTPP though ?

^^ Get a mortgage quote for the early repayment figure in the LPP table and pay it off with a mortgage. Will probably cost you more (monthly) to get a mortgage due to high interest rates though unless you spread over more than 10 years.

I have been following this thread for a while and have written to RERA re complaints against SG- I have also written to SG and to-date no response has been received. Since I will not sign the addendum I think it is time I now appointed solicitors. Could somebody confirm if I need to instruct solicitors in Dubai or the UK and could anybody suggest a firm, if so please PM me with their details. I note that RERA have apparently approved the service charges- at what figure I do not know

Hi all,
I'm on the lpp and would anyone know when we would get a title deed. Is it in effect when the developer is no longer owed anything or would it be at the handover stage?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to get a mortgage to pay the developer off and they are asking If I have title deed to the property.

I asked about this because I need to remove my ex-wife's name from this LPP purchase.
The reply I received from Alman Gaba in the handover team was:

"Please note that the title deed is under initial stages for the Torch Tower and will take another 2 – 3 months before we can start processing. Initially they will all be in the name of the developer and then changed to the associated owner’s name accordingly."

I am hoping the Title is NOT in joint-names, because I would need to pay 1% as a seller and 1% as a buyer (apparently) to the Land Department, just to cross-out one name! Effectively, I would be selling the property to myself! Ludicrous.

I asked about this because I need to remove my ex-wife's name from this LPP purchase.
The reply I received from Alman Gaba in the handover team was:

"Please note that the title deed is under initial stages for the Torch Tower and will take another 2 – 3 months before we can start processing. Initially they will all be in the name of the developer and then changed to the associated owner’s name accordingly."

I am hoping the Title is NOT in joint-names, because I would need to pay 1% as a seller and 1% as a buyer (apparently) to the Land Department, just to cross-out one name! Effectively, I would be selling the property to myself! Ludicrous.

Does anybody know the procedure to add a name to the Title?
(I got married since purchase)

Does anybody know the procedure to add a name to the Title?
(I got married since purchase)


Sid, don't do it!
Life is so much easier if it's all in sole names!

I expect the fee would be 1% anyway.
If you look on the Dubai Land Department's website, there is a list of fees there.

Sid, don't do it!
Life is so much easier if it's all in sole names!

I expect the fee would be 1% anyway.
If you look on the Dubai Land Department's website, there is a list of fees there.

Yeh but what if I end up in a orange boiler suit..? :lol:

Amending Title Deed Information AED370.

Thx

just had a reply from SG - SG charges were 21.19 RERA'S show 20.73- have been advised by SG that this is a simple mistake by RERA and SG are to speak to RERA today for clarification

just had a reply from SG - SG charges were 21.19 RERA'S show 20.73- have been advised by SG that this is a simple mistake by RERA and SG are to speak to RERA today for clarification

Difference of AED420 pa for a 1-bed apt.

So is the 15 + 5 = 20 (which we have already been charged) is going up even more to 21.19?

Cayan are charging Silverene customers 10 + 4 chiller

So is the 15 + 5 = 20 (which we have already been charged) is going up even more to 21.19?

Cayan are charging Silverene customers 10 + 4 chiller

We paid 21.20 per sq ft

RERA approved 20.73 per sq ft

I'm just setting up a OA and HOA at the moment...

10 + 5 (Chiller) is possible... thats what we are going to charge..

I'm just setting up a OA and HOA at the moment...

10 + 5 (Chiller) is possible... thats what we are going to charge..

^^
I hope we can acheive this in the 2nd year.

So is the 15 + 5 = 20 (which we have already been charged) is going up even more to 21.19?

Cayan are charging Silverene customers 10 + 4 chiller

Torch will be always more expensive than the Silverene , no way less then 20 dhs with A/C, you will see, from the second year can be even more when the DLP is finished, lift maintenance , A/C maintenance , lots of common areas etc.

And the most important thing is the fire system and electric system maintenance , its not a joke and cost lots of money.

Its a supertall + Emrill is not the cheapest :)

But I think its better for you if you pay more and get a good service.

^^ but True Blue made the point about economies of scale before which I agree with. Some costs are not proportionate to the number of apartments and so if anything service charges in a supertall should be less than a smaller development. The Torch has 600+ apartments and one reception. Silverene has 2 receptions, much fewer apartments and is considerably less than AED 16 per sq ft.

If things such as lifts, fire alarms etc are under warranty in the first year, what is nearly AED 16 per sq ft being being spent on?

Torch will be always more expensive than the Silverene , no way less then 20 dhs with A/C, you will see, from the second year can be even more when the DLP is finished, lift maintenance , A/C maintenance , lots of common areas etc.

And the most important thing is the fire system and electric system maintenance , its not a joke and cost lots of money.

Its a supertall + Emrill is not the cheapest :)

But I think its better for you if you pay more and get a good service.

It ought to be cheaper than SILVERENE because of amount of apartments and just one reception etc -agree I would rather p[ay for good service but not really sur5e what we will get yet

Does anyone know who Graham Knight is?

Does anyone know who Graham Knight is?

Looks like he has a majority steak in the select dinner, used to be only one glutton involved, we all know who - how does this work?

Looks like he has a majority steak in the select dinner, used to be only one glutton involved, we all know who - how does this work?

I mean - you sell cars for a guy, then set up your own lucrative skyscraper business, then your old boss becomes a partner in blankety blank:-):cheers: how does this work?

Does anyone know who Graham Knight is?

Yes, he's the Knight in Smith Knight Fay for those in the UK who know a little about the motor trade. He's an investor/shareholder in Select Property

Not the scope of this forum, keep 'em in private

Hi AltinD, so no facts and no evidence on this forum? I read some of the rules but am missing out of why facts and evidence are not allowed? I guess the forum owners are worried about defamation charges, rightfully so, but I am confused about this, and help in understanding would be appreciated. I thought this particular thread was about 'Select' concerns, but no facts allowed?

Yes, he's the Knight in Smith Knight Fay for those in the UK who know a little about the motor trade. He's an investor/shareholder in Select Property

Can we connect Rahail Aslam with the same?

Can we connect Rahail Aslam with the same?

I honestly don't know but Mark Stott was also in the motor trade at one time. Don't know anything about Rahail Aslam before Select

...

Hi - it's well publicised that he Aslam Rahail was in car sales...if anyone can prove a link with the above it will be great.

Btw...recently (unless shown otherwise) Graham Knight had nothing to do with Select, now relatively recently he has 900 shares and Mark Stott 1000.....!!! as opposed to before when Mark Stott was king - compare that to the lesser people e.g. Giles Beswick I think 100 shares, and the other cronies

He invested in Select a year or 2 ago when things were really tough and Select had to make redundancies

He invested in Select a year or 2 ago when things were really tough and Select had to make redundancies

Thanks, useful. Any idea who the beneficiaries of Torch Select Ltd. based in JAFZA are?

Thanks, useful. Any idea who the beneficiaries of Torch Select Ltd. based in JAFZA are?

Never heard of it Scoob

Never heard of it Scoob

Hmmm interesting, did you not sign a contract with the said Torch Select Ltd?

Hmmm interesting, did you not sign a contract with the said Torch Select Ltd?

Nope, I'm in BC

Nope, I'm in BC

OK, so you signed with Bay Central Ltd or something like that, undoubtedly it's registered in the Jebel Ali Free Zone, question is what are the details of that company and who are the beneficiaries?

OK, so you signed with Bay Central Ltd or something like that, undoubtedly it's registered in the Jebel Ali Free Zone, question is what are the details of that company and who are the beneficiaries?

And what relevance has that anyway ?

Does anyone have contact details for Graham Knight?

Does anyone have an idea on this question? If your one of those holding out signing the addendums and therefore no handover when you do come to handover are sg going to back date the service xmcharges to mid may? Or try to at least. Surely service charges are applicable on and from the date of handover.

I suspect they will argue that the apartment was available to be handed over from mid May and will seek service charges from then. I'm not saying I agree with this but I'm pretty sure that's what their stance would be.

Very cheeky considering the pool is still not available and the lift operation has been partial to say the least. Also, from what I gather the du connection for the building is still not available which means people can't use the internet.

Does anyone know if the Torch has a PO Box No yet as the Bank will not let me open an account without it ??

Does anyone know if the Torch has a PO Box No yet as the Bank will not let me open an account without it ??

Yes they do have a PO box, I have it written down somewhere and will try to dig it out. Alternatively call the concierge, that's where I got it from in the first place.

Yes they do have a PO box, I have it written down somewhere and will try to dig it out. Alternatively call the concierge, that's where I got it from in the first place.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2guf86q.jpg

:cheers:

^^ :)

Is this Torch Owners' Manual only available to those who have had handover?

Is this Torch Owners' Manual only available to those who have had handover?

It's on the USB thumb drive attached to the keys.

It's on the USB thumb drive attached to the keys.

jeez - the tightarses couldn't even afford printing a manual.

..

To those who are concerned about the handover, Dubai Law is on your side so do not despair.

With regards to SG's threat made about withholding the handover of the units to the buyers its simple,

The recent Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010, which is signed by Sheikh Mohamed Bin Rashid Al Maktum, is clear, relevant and enforceable

"the Law that was expanded upon relates to registration upon completion. Previously, a developer could not refuse to hand over or register a unit in the name of the purchaser on the Real Estate Register once a project had been completed or a completion certificate had been issued by the relevant authorities, if a purchaser had discharged all its contractual obligations.

The Resolution adds that now, the developer cannot refuse even if there were other financial obligations owed by the purchaser to the developer which did not arise in connection with the sale contract."

For those decent people who have faith in what I say:
1- SG has failed in getting you to pay the service charges upfront after RERA's intervention which was prompted by the many complaining emails from the Torch owners.
2- SG failed in getting you to sign the addenda even after applying their threatening letters which has no legal authority.
3- SG are trying new tactics to coarse people to sign by waiting and withholding the handover of the units.
4- SG's claim that all is fine and people are moving in, is just another trick to devide you. Its the oldest tricks and they will employ any tactics to entrap you.
5- RERA can not sit by and watch SG breaking the Law if they don't handover your property after it was registered to your name.
6- Claims that the legal route will take long is not true.

If you read any advise to sign "under duress" please please ignore it
or call a Lawyer and ask them about what they think,
the correct advise will be what MANUTD's Lawyer has told him "Ignore it".

Don't fall for it. Remember one advise I was always given
Know your rights
read this link:
http://blogs.thenational.ae/crane_co...%202010(2).pdf

it is clear to anyone who had any experience with RERA/LD that their goal, in the end, is to protect government interest. the biggest developers in dubai are government owned. it's really as simple as this. and if it helps achieving their goal, they will pretend that they are here to protect investors. but actions speak louder than words. developers have legally ripped off many investors. law 13 of 2008 allowed them to reposes thousands of apartments in projects that will never be completed.

Does anyone have an idea on this question? If your one of those holding out signing the addendums and therefore no handover when you do come to handover are sg going to back date the service xmcharges to mid may? Or try to at least. Surely service charges are applicable on and from the date of handover.


THE TORCH LIMITED (SELECT) WILL NOT HANDOVER YOUR APARTMENT UNTIL.....
A) YOU SIGN THE ADDENDUM OR B) THERE ARE FORCED TO BY THE LEGAL AUTHORTIES IN DUBAI

OPTION B MAY TAKE A LITTLE WHILE LONGER BUT WHEN THIS BLACKMAIL ATTEMPT IS EVENTUALLY BROUGHT IN FRONT OF THE LEGAL AUTHORITIES IN DUBAI AND THE ORGINAL CONTRACT IS REVIEWED IT SHOULD BE QUITE CLEAR CUT AND THE HANDOVER OF YOUR APARTMENT WILL BE INSTRUCTED. THEY CAN THEN BACKDATE THE SERVICE CHARGES CHARGES BECAUSE THEY WILL NEED TO PAY YOU, YOUR LEGAL FEES PLUS YOUR LOSS OF RENTAL INCOME WHICH WILL BE A MUCH LARGER AMOUNT THAN SERVICE CHARGES

NO HANDOVER = BREACH OF AN AGREED CONTRACT

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I thought i would offer a brief update on the addendum situation as advised to me by UAE based legal advisers. I have now had meetings with 3 separate lawyers in Dubai who have all suggested that all contracts LPP investors have signed are void.

A void contract in legal terms is defined as a contract or agreement that is undeliverable or can not be performed as it is required from outset. The usual legal remedy for this situation is for both parties to return to the same situation that existed prior to signing the contract that can not be performed.

The legal status of LPP contracts is that an investor must pay the FULL PURCHASE PRICE before being allowed access to the property to live in, use, or rent. If this situation is upheld then it prevents the BUYER from exercising several contractual rights as permitted in the contract. This is where the contract becomes void. The contract is contradictory in that it entitles a BUYER to certain rights that are then restricted by the same contract (from outset).

A simple analogy would be that i sell you a fridge with a 12 month warranty from the date of purchase, but also legally restrict you from plugging it in and using it for 12 months. By restricting your contractual right in the same contract that offers the right, it is fundamentally void.

SG are kindly offering a legal workaround on the basis that they will allow handover only if an addendum to this contract is signed, (I suspect because they are aware that the contracts are void), which allows more rights to both parties than is originally contracted. This makes the void contract workable, and also removes any future right for the BUYER to claim against the SELLER for damages to both the void contract and any other breaches that have also occurred. (There are many).

The benefit to the BUYER is that he can occupy or rent the property.
The benefit to the SELLER is that their part ownership can be resold or used as security to borrow further funds for other projects.

There are many instances of void contracts being ruled against in the Dubai property courts and although the UAE legal system does not work on a rule of precedent's. The consensus of legal opinion is that these contracts are poorly written and would not stand up to the scrutiny of the courts.

In the case of a void contract being upheld, claims for legal costs and compensation can be awarded to ensure that one party is not disadvantaged by the others inability to draft a contract that is fair, deliverable and legally functional at the time of it's creation.

Thanks for that, it all makes some sense now.

I have an LPP in Pacific and I expect that is void too. :nuts:

So those that did not sign the addendum have a void contract. Can they therefore request a refund of all monies paid through the courts. How long would the case take to be heard?

Hi there ALL

OK - I have read the posts and I have a question, what do we do and how long is it going to take. I have been waiting for years for this to happen and now I just do not know what to do next. Finances will restrict me to put in place a Dubai solicitor so will Rera or someone intervene here?

Please - just some straight forward advice is needed for the people who do not want to sign but are needing to sign - if that makes sense.

Thank you for your comments, much appreciated....

So those that did not sign the addendum have a void contract. Can they therefore request a refund of all monies paid through the courts. How long would the case take to be heard?

Correct.

All monies repaid + costs + compensation at Emirates bank deposit rate. Not guaranteed, but most likely.

It will probably take 12 months through Dubai property courts. I've been quoted around £20k all in, which is peanuts if you consider the ramifications of jointly owning an apartment with an unknown 3rd party who can use my apartment as security for a business activity which may end in insolvency and the possibility in losing the apartment altogether.

The best bit is i had Clyde & Co (London) review my contract in a disguised format and there advice was, well........ I'll save that for another day.

What about the LPP and service charges for those in the limbo state intenting to push forward with court action?

The RERA approval letter states that the Developer should undertake to pay the service fees & maintenance for unsold units as the owner of such units but does not state what to do for those who are refusing handover.

What about the LPP and service charges for those in the limbo state intenting to push forward with court action?

The RERA approval letter states that the Developer should undertake to pay the service fees & maintenance for unsold units as the owner of such units but does not state what to do for those who are refusing handover.

It is the developer who is REFUSING handover under the in situ contract state, (subject to BUYERS waiving all contractual rights including cancellation due to the contract being void).

The SG legal team has confirmed that the contractual situation is such that any LPP investor can only use the apartment, parking space, building amenities and services when, and only when the FULL PURCHASE PRICE is paid. As this was the case when the contracts were signed then there is no legal requirement to pay service charges until the BUYER is permitted to enter the building for which service charges are being levied.

Anyone on LPP who has signed either addendum, your problems havn't even started yet. The last 5 years will feel like a picnic in park compared to whats coming over the next 10.

On what clause in the SPA are they basing this!
The SG legal team has confirmed that the contractual situation is such that any LPP investor can only use the apartment, parking space, building amenities and services when, and only when the FULL PURCHASE PRICE is paid.

Anyone on LPP who has signed either addendum, your problems havn't even started yet. The last 5 years will feel like a picnic in park compared to whats coming over the next 10.

Can you please clarify that point with an example of what you are thinking of, for the benefit of those who have already signed so as to allow usage of the units before the full price is paid?

The SG legal team has confirmed that the contractual situation is such that any LPP investor can only use the apartment, parking space, building amenities and services when, and only when the FULL PURCHASE PRICE is paid. As this was the case when the contracts were signed then there is no legal requirement to pay service charges until the BUYER is permitted to enter the building for which service charges are being levied.

Interesting point. That does not bode well for the general maintenance of the building as I doubt Select can afford to pay the charges they have set for all of those units.

On what clause in the SPA are they basing this!

10.3

Can you please clarify that point with an example of what you are thinking of, for the benefit of those who have already signed so as to allow usage of the units before the full price is paid?

I'd rather not thanks. I fail to understand why anyone in their right mind decided to sign those addendum's. You have basically agreed to do whatever Select want you to do for as long as the LPP is in force. Your apartment does not belong to you and your joint owner could end up being anyone (individual or corporation), they are then able to sell their interest on to whoever they wish. Every time any future joint owner of your apartment wants to amend your agreement further (in whatever way they see fit), you are now contractually obliged to agree and sign any such agreements as are necessary to facilitate this process. You will never be able to mortgage this property to pay of the LPP unless SG agree to it first. Any LPP investors who have signed addendum's are at the total mercy of SG or whoever buys the debt from them. If at any time you refuse to agree a sale of rights or any other amendments that are required you will be in breach of your new contract and forfeit your rights.

Good luck with that. I'm sure uncle Rahail will look after you all, he seems like a really nice chap to me.

Interesting point. That does not bode well for the general maintenance of the building as I doubt Select can afford to pay the charges they have set for all of those units.

I wouldn't mind betting that service charges will escalate at a higher rate than property values in Dubai for at least the next 10 years.

can someone post the verbiage of clause 10.3! i only have BC contracts, and would like to compare the two.!

Hi there ALL

OK - I have read the posts and I have a question, what do we do and how long is it going to take. I have been waiting for years for this to happen and now I just do not know what to do next. Finances will restrict me to put in place a Dubai solicitor so will Rera or someone intervene here?

Please - just some straight forward advice is needed for the people who do not want to sign but are needing to sign - if that makes sense.

Thank you for your comments, much appreciated....

The difficulty is that many people are in the same position as you, unable to afford legal costs at 20k+ with no 100% certain outcome. Meanwhile you need to maintain the LPP payments. Some have no choice but to rent the units and deal with what might come in the future when and if it happens. Hopefully, if the LPP is sold on it will be under the same terms and conditions. Those fortunate to have access to lots of cash can go legal and try to return all monies paid due to the void contract as this would give a better return that keeping the unit in the mid term so can take advantage of the void contract situation recently discovered.

Dear potential investor,

We would like to offer you the opportunity to purchase an investment as follows:

For AED**** you can jointly own a share of property that will yield an income return in excess of 7% pa of your initial capital investment. This return is fixed and guaranteed. Furthermore within the agreement you will be able to refuse the other joint owner use of the property for any reason you see fit. If the other owner wants to buy himself out of your agreement you can refuse with no valid reason. If you want to use any of this guaranteed income generated to secure more debt you can. If you want use the capital element of the property to generate debt you can also do this. If the company providing you with the new debt insist that the property is repossessed in its entirety on default of the new debt you are creating you will have to get the other joint owner to agree to this. (He has to agree to this contractually or he is in breach of contract). In fact you can do whatever you see fit as long as it is legal (well in the UAE anyway).

As if this wasn't attractive enough, the icing on the cake is this. If whatever it is you want to do with the equity share of the property is not agreed to by the other joint owner, and they simply refuse to sign any new contracts that allow you to do whatever it is you want to do. You can simply hold him in breach of his contract and take full ownership of the property. This could effectively return well in excess of 100% return on your capital investment depending on when you decide to present such an agreement that the investor does not agree to.

Obviously as time goes by and your capital and interest is gradually repaid to you as per the attached schedule, your joint ownership rights of the property remain the same so any such agreements you wish to make would sensibly be deferred so that the other joint owner can repay most of your investment back before refusing to enter into an agreement in which he forfeits his rights to the property.

Please hurry as this opportunity is in limited suppy. Well until sometime next year, or the year after when we will have some more of these to sell.

http://i54.tinypic.com/1124bk3.jpg

LPP to be sold only with same terms and conditions?

LPP to be sold only with same terms and conditions?

Only until such time as the Seller wishes to amend the conditions, to which you have agreed to their irrevocable right to do so.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9453/38226705.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/38226705.jpg/)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4582/66882713.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/66882713.jpg/)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1372/95986943.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/95986943.jpg/)

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4140/31526294.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/31526294.jpg/)

You are in the lions den now Steve, good luck.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2eq486e.jpg

Dear potential investor,

We would like to offer you the opportunity to purchase an investment as follows:

For AED**** you can jointly own a share of property that will yield an income return in excess of 7% pa of your initial capital investment. This return is fixed and guaranteed. Furthermore within the agreement you will be able to refuse the other joint owner use of the property for any reason you see fit. If the other owner wants to buy himself out of your agreement you can refuse with no valid reason. If you want to use any of this guaranteed income generated to secure more debt you can. If you want use the capital element of the property to generate debt you can also do this. If the company providing you with the new debt insist that the property is repossessed in its entirety on default of the new debt you are creating you will have to get the other joint owner to agree to this. (He has to agree to this contractually or he is in breach of contract). In fact you can do whatever you see fit as long as it is legal (well in the UAE anyway).

As if this wasn't attractive enough, the icing on the cake is this. If whatever it is you want to do with the equity share of the property is not agreed to by the other joint owner, and they simply refuse to sign any new contracts that allow you to do whatever it is you want to do. You can simply hold him in breach of his contract and take full ownership of the property. This could effectively return well in excess of 100% return on your capital investment depending on when you decide to present such an agreement that the investor does not agree to.

Obviously as time goes by and your capital and interest is gradually repaid to you as per the attached schedule, your joint ownership rights of the property remain the same so any such agreements you wish to make would sensibly be deferred so that the other joint owner can repay most of your investment back before refusing to enter into an agreement in which he forfeits his rights to the property.

Please hurry as this opportunity is in limited suppy. Well until sometime next year, or the year after when we will have some more of these to sell.

No need to advertise. Some deals are already on the table. I will be very surprised if SG in property development this time next year, those crooks are planning the next scam already but, we could spoil that deal for them :cheers:

Please everyone, why can't we get our act together and get one law firm acting for the investors of the Torch. At least this way we can negotiate the lawyers fees.

The contract was made for a unit in your name,, unless you bought as a group that approach won't be accepted.

If you somehow can get that accepted by the relevant court,, "which it will unlike won't", then you would be allowed to.

Only until such time as the Seller wishes to amend the conditions, to which you have agreed to their irrevocable right to do so.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9453/38226705.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/38226705.jpg/)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4582/66882713.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/66882713.jpg/)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1372/95986943.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/95986943.jpg/)

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4140/31526294.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/31526294.jpg/)

You are in the lions den now Steve, good luck.

It's not that bad (b) seems to say that changes to the payments or total amount owed are not allowed to be changed.

The contract was made for a unit in your name,, unless you bought as a group that approach won't be accepted.

If you somehow can get that accepted by the relevant court,, "which it will unlike won't", then you would be allowed to.


It should be possible for a group of owners to approach a law firm and negotiate a individual group discount! This in my opinion, would be a win win situation for everybody. The law firm is guaranteed a certain amount of business and each owner would have to pay less for his/her case! :)

It should be possible for a group of owners to approach a law firm and negotiate a individual group discount! This in my opinion, would be a win win situation for everybody. The law firm is guaranteed a certain amount of business and each owner would have to pay less for his/her case! :)

I came across this on my travels:

http://lyhplaw.com/faqs.htm#4


How much cost benefit does collective action offer?
Collective efforts by investors provide enormous cost benefit. First, as far as legal and expert fees are concerned, they can share the expense. Second, any costs incurred in gathering due diligence necessary to litigate a case can be also split across the board. Even bigger cost benefit could be achieved if, because of their collective force, investors work out a settlement with the developer without going to court.

It's not that bad (b) seems to say that changes to the payments or total amount owed are not allowed to be changed.

But what about the time period to pay it over?

10.3



I'd rather not thanks. I fail to understand why anyone in their right mind decided to sign those addendum's. You have basically agreed to do whatever Select want you to do for as long as the LPP is in force. Your apartment does not belong to you and your joint owner could end up being anyone (individual or corporation), they are then able to sell their interest on to whoever they wish. Every time any future joint owner of your apartment wants to amend your agreement further (in whatever way they see fit), you are now contractually obliged to agree and sign any such agreements as are necessary to facilitate this process. You will never be able to mortgage this property to pay of the LPP unless SG agree to it first. Any LPP investors who have signed addendum's are at the total mercy of SG or whoever buys the debt from them. If at any time you refuse to agree a sale of rights or any other amendments that are required you will be in breach of your new contract and forfeit your rights.

Good luck with that. I'm sure uncle Rahail will look after you all, he seems like a really nice chap to me.



I wouldn't mind betting that service charges will escalate at a higher rate than property values in Dubai for at least the next 10 years.

Dear Nemisis,

First off a huge thank you for your very helpfull and informative post re legal opinions.

May i ask you, do you intend to take legal action as you dissagree to sign the addendums based on this information you have discovered.

I ask because i am on the LPP with 2 2bed apartments in the Torch. I have not signed the addendums and informed SG i want them removed or adjusted.

SG responded that they wont adjustor/remove addendums and they want to know if i wish to take posetion of the units in which case i still need to sign the addedums SO THAT CLAUSE 10.3 OF THE SPA DOES NOT APPLY. or i take possetion of the properties when the full purchase price is paid.

You can send me a personal message if you prefer to keep you motives off the public forum

Regards

Mark

Hi there Morris

We are in the same position but to be honest if theres no give what do you do??????? to go to the court route is expensive and they know it, im sure that we have a better than even chance of winning but I do not have the funds for that.

So what are people intending to do just sit it out until their LPP is paid off, it seems to be the only 2 options I have unless the authorities get involved and how long will it take them. For ever I think.

Any answers greatfully received - thank you.

But what about the time period to pay it over?

Yes I suppose there is that risk. But even if they change the schedule for the next ten years to the next 10 weeks, at least the payments will remain the same and the total amount will not change either.

Your rental income will likely at very best just cover your LPP payments, so you will have a liability of at least the service charges. You need to make sure you will be able to cover that over the next years. If you have access to enough credit you could go legal instead and hope to recover the monies paid. The cost of going legal and the liability of the service charges for the next few years are about the same so you pay your money and take your choice.

Yes I suppose there is that risk. But even if they change the schedule for the next ten years to the next 10 weeks, at least the payments will remain the same and the total amount will not change either.

Yes but not many could come up with the full amount owing in 10 weeks under the current conditions in which case they can repossess. Unlikely they will go this route or be allowed to but potentially possible.

I am in the process of looking to appoint a solicitor but where does one look. I assume an International Law firm is the route to go and I note Allen & Avery are a firm with offices in Dubai and London. Which office should you contact.
For those who have already appointed solicitors, is their correspondence dealt with by SG legal team in Dubai or by SG's solicitors Clyde & co.

Any help to put me in the right direction would appreciated.

I Wonder - I wonder

Service charges for Skycourts project, which consists of 2,836 apartments in six high-rise towers, has been set at Dh7.9 per square feet, which the developer claims to be the “lowest” rate across any residential tower in Dubai.

In its October newsletter, Skycourts LLC said that the charges have been reviewed and approved by the Real Estate Regulatory Agency.

“The Skycourts Service Initiative, a service programme that will provide homeowners the most cost efficient services programme, was developed in conjunction with top consultants and validated by third party service providers to ensure that it will more than satisfy all the requirements of the community,” the newsletter said.

As per the developers website, Mace Macro Property Consultancy will provide facilities management.

In the handover letter issued to investors, the developer has asked buyers to make payment of service charge for 2011 in four post-dated cheques.

Mohanad Alwadiya, Managing Director of Harbor Real Estate, says: “For an apartment of 1,000 square feet, an owner needs to pay only Dh7900 per year, or Dh658 per month, which is significantly less than all the developments in Dubai.”

I am in the process of looking to appoint a solicitor but where does one look. I assume an International Law firm is the route to go and I note Allen & Avery are a firm with offices in Dubai and London. Which office should you contact.
For those who have already appointed solicitors, is their correspondence dealt with by SG legal team in Dubai or by SG's solicitors Clyde & co.

Any help to put me in the right direction would appreciated.

Why not use the same one as NEMISIS, maybe you will get a discount on the fees.

But what about the time period to pay it over?

The way I interpret the SVA2 is that no matter what i.e even if you sell or mortgage now, you will have to pay the 'entire Purchase Price (Original Purchase Price plus ~7% for LPP)', this being equal to the total amount you pay over the entire LPP period. The Lengthy Payment Plan Pre-payment table (part of schedule 2) which is part of the LPP contracts and provisioned settlement balances for early repayment will no longer be valid.
If you sell after signing the SVA2 you will need to fetch a selling price at or near the full Purchase Price (ie around 1.7M AED?) to break-even (well, without the years of interest lost!) as you will owe SG this entire Purchase Price amount - ie. it looks like there is no longer an 'early payment option'
As I say this is an interpretation, and will need to be confirmed by the lawyers...

^^ Sasha confirmed this:

Reference your query as highlighted below, please note that you can pay off all your LPP payments as per the Prepayment schedule table of your SPA at any time even after the signing of second Variation addendum.

The prepayment table has not been removed from the contract.

Anyway, the majority of the interest has already been paid as this is loaded in the first years. Mostly just the capital now to repay.

^^ Sasha confirmed this:



The prepayment table has not been removed from the contract.

Anyway, the majority of the interest has already been paid as this is loaded in the first years. Mostly just the capital now to repay.

Nah - it's the other way round, money paid during the first 5-6 years has paid off the capital, most of the remaining amount is interest.

No, the way any loan works is that the repayments in the early years are mainly interest, and in the latter years the reverse. The reason this is the case is that, assuming a constant interest rate (as is the case with the SG LPP agreements), if the loan starts out with 100% of the capital outstanding then inevitably the interest payable on that debt will be higher than part-way through the loan, at which point more capital has been repaid, so if you are making constant-sized instalments, the early ones are mainly interest and the later ones mainly capital.

Which part of the original SPA is contradictory and therefore void?
If signed by both parties in agreement, it can't be void because you have both agreed.

Eg, I could say 'I am a washing machine' and both parties sign to agree.
Obviously false, but agreed legally?

No, the way any loan works is that the repayments in the early years are mainly interest, and in the latter years the reverse. The reason this is the case is that, assuming a constant interest rate (as is the case with the SG LPP agreements), if the loan starts out with 100% of the capital outstanding then inevitably the interest payable on that debt will be higher than part-way through the loan, at which point more capital has been repaid, so if you are making constant-sized instalments, the early ones are mainly interest and the later ones mainly capital.

Don't agree.
The real fact of the matter is that Adam Price told us that this is neither a loan nor a mortgage.
We would simply be making payments towards the total purchase price.
That's the way they presented it.
There is no interest involved.
So we can all say that logically such a payment plan if a loan or a mortgage would involve interest payments at the beginning. I chose to randomly claim the interest payments are at the end as simply, there are no interest payments involved according to our information from Select, and I wanted reaction. The reality is that we were sold on the basis that this was neither a loan nor a mortgage.

Was anybody told differently?

Btw Mistermark, I posted something a while ago to which I've had no response, maybe you can help by having a deeper think about it. I will dig it up, as it is a key part to all of this.

Which part of the original SPA is contradictory and therefore void?
If signed by both parties in agreement, it can't be void because you have both agreed.

Eg, I could say 'I am a washing machine' and both parties sign to agree.
Obviously false, but agreed legally?

Hi Nemesis (are you micmonro?) thank you for the extremely interesting reading which is very valuable. Any chance you could clarify the situation, based on the Flyjim question? we can guess but would like it spoonfed to us.
Again Nemesis, we really appreciate this.

I still don't get it. Rahail Aslam, who we never heard of until relatively recently, is the CEO of Select Group. Apparently Select Group is the 'parent company' of Torch Select Ltd. according to Mistermark, certainly this was never mentioned in the contract where "Torch Select Ltd. is the seller - and that's it! no mention of a 'parent' company. Contracts are with Torch Select Ltd. and Torch Select Ltd. only, not with Select Group or anybody else.

What exactly is Rahail Aslam's accountability for 'Torch Select Ltd', what does 'parent' mean? When Torch Select Ltd. was born, did it have a 'parent' ? If not then how did this 'parent' come into being?

We were originally told that Torch Select Ltd was a 'sister'. A project specific 'sister' of the developer. The other problem we don't understand is birthplace. Torch Select Ltd. was born in the Jebel Ali Free Zone. The developer was born in the U.K., and or Dubai. The 'parent' was we believe born in Dubai. The developer Dubai Select LLC, born in Dubai, whose sister is Torch Select Ltd, born in JAFZA, with 'parent' Select Group who was also born in Dubai. Question is - how exactly are these other family members legally accountable for the anonymous 'Torch Select Ltd?'
Do the beneficiaries of Torch Select Ltd. get off scott free?

Anybody can answer this very serious question? Mistermark?

Don't agree.
The real fact of the matter is that Adam Price told us that this is neither a loan nor a mortgage.
We would simply be making payments towards the total purchase price.
That's the way they presented it.
There is no interest involved.
So we can all say that logically such a payment plan if a loan or a mortgage would involve interest payments at the beginning, or at the end as I choose to randomly claim, the reality is that we were sold on the basis that this was neither a loan nor a mortgage.
Was anybody told differently?

The clue is in the name - no checks lengthy payment plan (LPP)

We were all told what the standard payment plan price was, and what the lpp price was. In affect lpp investors have committed to pay for the 15 year property price (or whatever your exact term is) when you signed on the dotted line.

However, it also states that lpp buyers will "have the right (and risk) to possession of the Property from the Completion Date and all other rights..."

So I am disgusted that SG has not allowed torch owners who do not sign the addendum access to what is lawfully theirs.

All you torch owners please hang on in there - us bc investors are watching and willing to help.

The clue is in the name - no checks lengthy payment plan (LPP)

We were all told what the standard payment plan price was, and what the lpp price was. In affect lpp investors have committed to pay for the 15 year property price (or whatever your exact term is) when you signed on the dotted line.

However, it also states that lpp buyers will "have the right (and risk) to possession of the Property from the Completion Date and all other rights..."

So I am disgusted that SG has not allowed torch owners who do not sign the addendum access to what is lawfully theirs.

All you torch owners please hang on in there - us bc investors are watching and willing to help.

Hmmm great! that might explain why we have had no notification of a completion date, just a 'completion notice' which fooled many. Keep it coming.

Hmmm great! that might explain why we have had no notification of a completion date, just a 'completion notice' which fooled many. Keep it coming.

Is the LPP legal in Dubai for a property purchase? I can well imagine that an LPP is legal for a fridge there, but a property purchase? was dubai select taking advantage of a primitive law system?

Totally illegal in the U.K.

Perhaps the SPAs aren't entirely legal since they were never attested by a lawyer or notaire; they were merely signed by 2 parties (buyer and developer) and a 'witness', and dealt with through the post.

If 3 separate Dubai lawyers have said they are void, are they able to back that up by taking on a potentially large case-file, with the confidence of winning?

^^ In addition to the questionable SPAs, I am led to believe that the addenda may not hold up in court - if anyone is lucky enough to get their case heard soon. Here are some of the issues:

Apparently they were backdated to March 2011 which was several weeks before they were actually issued and therefore signed - there is no provision for dates next to the signature lines.

They do not include a requirement to have both parties' signatures witnessed. In fact, they are written in such a way that assumes both buyer and seller are signing in each other's presence. The seller's name is written as Rahail Aslam - did anyone arrange to meet him in Starbucks for a double expresso and two addenda to go?

No requirement was made to have the buyer sign or initial ALL pages. There would be nothing stopping the buyer claiming that he/she did not acknowledge or agree to the provisions on any pages that he/she didn't sign. Signing or entering initials on all pages is normal practice to prevent one party replacing any of the pages after the other party has signed.

Pretty amateurish effort really.

Hi there everyone

I did receive am e-mail answering a question about the LPP and the pre-payment table, would it still be in force after signing the addendum's. The answer was yes they would, this e-mail came from the solicitor, is this just lip service or can I take this at face value??????

Can anyone shed some light on which solicitors to use and what the possible total cost of an action again these crooks will be??????? and the time frame.

Thank you everyine for your comments.

^^ Refer to NEMISIS posts


Correct.

All monies repaid + costs + compensation at Emirates bank deposit rate. Not guaranteed, but most likely.

It will probably take 12 months through Dubai property courts. I've been quoted around £20k all in, which is peanuts if you consider the ramifications of jointly owning an apartment with an unknown 3rd party who can use my apartment as security for a business activity which may end in insolvency and the possibility in losing the apartment altogether.

The best bit is i had Clyde & Co (London) review my contract in a disguised format and there advice was, well........ I'll save that for another day.

Hi there everyone

I did receive am e-mail answering a question about the LPP and the pre-payment table, would it still be in force after signing the addendum's. The answer was yes they would, this e-mail came from the solicitor, is this just lip service or can I take this at face value??????

Can anyone shed some light on which solicitors to use and what the possible total cost of an action again these crooks will be??????? and the time frame.

Thank you everyine for your comments.

Do not trust any one or any communication from Select Property or Select Group. The Contract was written by a lawyer and still they are breaking it. They lied on every occasion and continue to lie and deceit.

My local advisor and I met with a big law firm very recently and the best chance people have is to take SP and SG both in the UK and Dubai to court. RERA are showing interest but that’s it, just interest. Some one is stopping RERA from acting against some developers at present despite wanting to :dunno:

If Select Group / Torch Select is taken to court by certain buyers and would become insolvent because of a court judgement to pay back all money owed, presumable they will sell on the LPP for those who have signed to cover some of their loses.

YES Steve

What would happen to LPP units if Select Group became insolvent and were not authorised to sell on the LPP?

They would sell the LPP just before insolvancy & hide the money. Select will probably wind the company up soon anyway

^^ In which case legal action would be a waste of money? :dunno:

They would sell the LPP just before insolvancy & hide the money. Select will probably wind the company up soon anyway

I think you are underestimating just how addictive greed is. Their time to walk would be when they have extorted as much service charges as they can across all their developments.

I think you are underestimating just how addictive greed is. Their time to walk would be when they have extorted as much service charges as they can across all their developments.

True but I meant in a context if they are under heavy fire from the media or lawsuits then they will just pack their bags get on their horses & ride out of Dodge.

Steve- This is a real fear that so many will institute court proceedings & could even win that Select will disolve beforehand. Maybe a defunct Select could be our best hope.

^^ A defunct Select as you say would cause them to sell on the LPP. A non defunct Select would do they same. So it seems selling the LPP is inevitable and possibly a benefit to have signed this addendum so that it is sold on rather than Select going to insolvency and loosing the apartment. :dunno: Dont know who Select would sell to, but I might prefer that a bank owned the LPP financing and title deed rather than Select.

With the LPP apartments basically Select have a massive loan note worth $$$$ but they get their money over 10-11 years. Or they can sell the note now or near future for instant cash now. Question what would you pay percentage wise for the loan note? Its worth them selling now cos any law could be put in place that would jeopardise the LPP or property prices can drop & owners start to hand back the keys etc. Thats why they want the addendums signed. It helps them to find more buyers for the loan note.

Sounds like selling the loan note could be a good thing to all to me but only if it is definitely on the same interest rate and payment plan length as originally signed for. I would have though that if Select had confirmed this clearly stated in their addendum then we would not have the issues we have now with many buyers refusing to sign? :dunno: Just a suggestion.

^^ A defunct Select as you say would cause them to sell on the LPP. A non defunct Select would do they same. So it seems selling the LPP is inevitable and possibly a benefit to have signed this addendum so that it is sold on rather than Select going to insolvency and loosing the apartment. :dunno: Dont know who Select would sell to, but I might prefer that a bank owned the LPP financing and title deed rather than Select.

Talking generally, and not specifically about this project, and rrespective of the circumstances under which a developer might choose to sell on a vendor loan arrangement such as the LPP, the expectation is that they would do so at a discount to the net present value of the future cashflows emanating from those agreements. Where a fire sale ever to take place, it may be that the owners, were they able to organise themselves in this way, perhaps with bank backing, could be a potential buyer. If nothing else, by deciding whether to pay or go into arrears, they would be in a strong position to influence the price...

Just received copy of amended addendums made by RERA from SG- only the 2nd variation addendum has been revised- has anyone else received this and if so any thoughts?

Nothing received yet, what has been amended?
Has RERA approved a Service Charge now?

Thanks.

Nothing received yet, what has been amended?
Has RERA approved a Service Charge now?

Thanks.

Yep- charges have been approved. You should have recieved an email confirming the approved charges?

Those who have not yet signed and paid, please think seriously about taking legal action. I beg to differ with those who claim that it is pointless and takes a long time.

After you have tried other ways, you will find that the legal route is your ONLY OPTION and the only language SG will understand. They will then take you seriously because this legal action will be in the public interest, not to mention it will also hamper the selling of LPP to any financier once they know SG has legal action pending.

Please do not negotiate over an apartment that you OWN and registered in your name. SG MUST HAND YOU OVER THE UNIT....THIS IS YOUR STARTING POINT AND NON NEGOTIABLE.

Good news that the 2nd addendum for LPP buyers has been modified. Could you please summarize what has been modified.

Hi All

So what exactley has been changed in the 2nd addendum?????? and does this change anything??????????

Thank you.

^^

May be there's a new clause which forbids talking about the addendum on this forum :lol:

Hi Micmonro

I agree with your comments, but the term that SG must hand over your apartment is flawed by the fact that no authority in Dubai is making them do it.... yet that is.

Unfortunately a lot of people may not be able to go down the legal route, this only leaves one other option to wait indefinately until the authorities do something.

Thank you all for your comments.

Hi Micmonro

I agree with your comments, but the term that SG must hand over your apartment is flawed by the fact that no authority in Dubai is making them do it.... yet that is.

Unfortunately a lot of people may not be able to go down the legal route, this only leaves one other option to wait indefinately until the authorities do something.

Thank you all for your comments.

I hope nobody is going to wait around indefinately, this is simply not an option. Sticking your head in the sand and hoping that this is all going to sort itself out or that someone else is going to sort it all out for you is not going to work.

This is the fan dance and those who are actively engaged in resolving this will probably get somewhere close to a compromise but for those waiting for things to happen on their own, well you could be waiting a long time.....but make sure you keep paying those quarterly payments because by god they will surely be enforcing that part of the purported 'void' contract......then you will be left with nothing

why are the addendum changes being kept secret. why not share them on this forum!

why are the addendum changes being kept secret. why not share them on this forum!

I heard fundamentally it's the same, just re-written.

(I'm not on lpp)

^^ a few words here and there can make a complete difference

Hi All

I have seen the revised addendum but it will not be used it is only for reference, can u believe this. Has anyone got any further information concerning this revised addendum?

Thank you everyone.

^^ You mean RERA just asked Select to simplify it so they could understand it?

well, anyone can post the old and new addendum for all to see!!

this is important to see if RERA/Land Dept really acted on the complaints!

Hi All

So has anyone had confirmation that they can actually sign this revised addendum?

Hi All

So has anyone had confirmation that they can actually sign this revised addendum?

Good point Caribarra....

I want to ask some questions. What will all those who have signed the old addenda do now? Are they allowed to demand that their addenda be revised too?

I feel really bad for those who have been duped into signing their rights away

Attention Everyone,

For those who are serious about taking legal action and willing to commit financially, please PM me your contact details.

I am ready to begin legal action against SG.

Please don't contact me just to obtain information, I only require people who have decided to pursue legal action.

I have a legal background and I am only too happy to help those who require it.

Hi All

The revised addenda is not different as far as I can see, I am not sure if the one I have seen has even been corrected by RERA. I do not trust Select. I am in the process of asking RERA to confirm if they have changed it and if they can supply me with a copy to compare.

I really do not think that the people who have already signed have signed anything different to the one being passed off as a RERA option.

Hopefully we will see.

I've been sent the revised Addendum and have it has a PDF, but don't know how to post this on the Forum. Can someone please advise. We really had to demand this from Select. They were very reluctant to give this to us. My Husband has been through it and there are some slight changes to the wording. I believe it just states in certain places "as approved by RERA". Would appreciate your comments, as we are on the verge of signing this, as we cannot afford to take legal action or wait any longer and need to rent this out in order to cover quarterly payments on the LPP.

Please advise.

I have been in contact with a Dubai-based lawyer who says:

"I am currently already acting for a number of clients who have invested in The Torch project.

The developer is not allowed to insist that you sign new addendums prior to taking handover, as currently drafted. I presume that they are asking you to agree to the delays that have occurred, thereby foregoing your right to claim compensation amongst other things; you are right to resist doing so."


So, if you don't like it, don't sign it, tell Select why, and ask for handover nonetheless, based on your original SPA.

I have been in contact with a Dubai-based lawyer who says:

"I am currently already acting for a number of clients who have invested in The Torch project.

The developer is not allowed to insist that you sign new addendums prior to taking handover, as currently drafted. I presume that they are asking you to agree to the delays that have occurred, thereby foregoing your right to claim compensation amongst other things; you are right to resist doing so."


So, if you don't like it, don't sign it, tell Select why, and ask for handover nonetheless, based on your original SPA.

I think the idea of asking for handover without signing addendums might possibly have occurred to a few owners already. Trouble is, when the developer says 'no', what next? Complain to RERA, maybe. This idea has also crossed the minds of a new investors. Result? Not a lot. Next step? Give some money to the lawyer to write an angry letter to the developer for it to ignore? Maybe issue proceedings?

use this link.

http://www.imageshack.us/

I've been sent the revised Addendum and have it has a PDF, but don't know how to post this on the Forum. Can someone please advise. We really had to demand this from Select. They were very reluctant to give this to us. My Husband has been through it and there are some slight changes to the wording. I believe it just states in certain places "as approved by RERA". Would appreciate your comments, as we are on the verge of signing this, as we cannot afford to take legal action or wait any longer and need to rent this out in order to cover quarterly payments on the LPP.

Please advise.

So, if you don't like it, don't sign it, tell Select why, and ask for handover nonetheless, based on your original SPA.

Does the original SPA allow usage/renatal of the the apartment before full payment?

So, if you don't like it, don't sign it, tell Select why, and ask for handover nonetheless, based on your original SPA.

Does the original SPA allow usage/renatal of the the apartment before full payment? I thought the contact was void, so how can you sign a void contract? hence the need for the addendum.

Does the original SPA allow usage/renatal of the the apartment before full payment? I thought the contact was void, so how can you sign a void contract? hence the need for the addendum.

So this was all planned right from the beginning to defraud investors?

I've been sent the revised Addendum and have it has a PDF, but don't know how to post this on the Forum. Can someone please advise. We really had to demand this from Select. They were very reluctant to give this to us. My Husband has been through it and there are some slight changes to the wording. I believe it just states in certain places "as approved by RERA". Would appreciate your comments, as we are on the verge of signing this, as we cannot afford to take legal action or wait any longer and need to rent this out in order to cover quarterly payments on the LPP.

Please advise.

Some of you may not have received the second revised addendum.
Here are the changes and my analysis on it (for what its worth):
It is still dated 3/3/11 when the date should be a revised date, therefore this document is invalid and date inserted is illegal
No Objection Certificate - 'as may be varied by the seller from time to time'- DELETED
[/LIST]Clause 5.1 has been added with "..and the Buyer shall be liable for all timely due payments relating but not limiting to service charge as levied by the Owner's Association or its appointed manager"
Clause 5.2 - re-worded but same meaning
Clause 5A.8 (h) - ADDED: "..subject to approval of RERA"

In my opinion this addendum has not addressed any of the LPP owner's concerns and these minor amendments should not change a person's mind to signing it now.

SG is still insisting that we sign on the premise that either it doesn't cover it in the SPA or not fully specified and given that we are on LPP that certain provisions need to contain within the addendum.

This is rubbish, because please remember
a) SG cannot force anyone to sign something a person disagrees with (the clue is in the title -Sales & Purchase Agreement. If you sign now and wish to sue them later, you may not be successful.

b) It is SG's LPP arrangement therefore their solicitor should have had these clauses in place from the time the SPA was drawn. Therefore, they are to blame if they have omitted this.

c) Dubai laws protect both the developer and the investor, so if the purchaser defaults, SG has legal rights to take proper action.(See Law 13,2008 and Law 9, 2009)


To SPP owners and those who are thinking of paying up the LPP to avoid signing addendum 2, still think twice before you do so because SG want you to waive liability which means THEY FEAR ANY FUTURE COURT ACTION AND DO NOT WANT YOU TO CLAIM COMPENSATION OR TAKE THEM TO COURT FOR ANYTHING.

Criminal. I can't see many investers buying from Select Property now.
Bloody cowboys.:bash:

Some of you may not have received the second revised addendum.
Here are the changes and my analysis on it (for what its worth):
It is still dated 3/3/11 when the date should be a revised date
No Objection Certificate - 'as may be varied by the seller from time to time'- DELETED
[/LIST]Clause 5.1 has been added with "..and the Buyer shall be liable for all timely due payments relating but not limiting to service charge as levied by the Owner's Association or its appointed manager"
Clause 5.2 - re-worded but same meaning
Clause 5A.8 (h) - ADDED: "..subject to approval of RERA"

In my opinion this addendum has not addressed any of the LPP owner's concerns and these minor amendments should not change a person's mind to signing it now.

SG is still insisting that we sign on the premise that either it doesn't cover it in the SPA or not fully specified and given that we are on LPP that certain provisions need to contain within the addendum.

This is rubbish, because please remember
a) SG cannot force anyone to sign something a person disagrees with (the clue is in the title -Sales & Purchase Agreement. If you sign now and wish to sue them later, you may not be successful.

b) It is SG's LPP arrangement therefore their solicitor should have had these clauses in place from the time the SPA was drawn. Therefore, they are to blame if they have omitted this.

c) Dubai laws protect both the developer and the investor, so if the purchaser defaults, SG has legal rights to take proper action.(See Law 13,2008 and Law 9, 2009)


To SPP owners and those who are thinking of paying up the LPP to avoid signing addendum 2, still think twice before you do so because SG want you to waive liability which means THEY FEAR ANY FUTURE COURT ACTION AND DO NOT WANT YOU TO CLAIM COMPENSATION OR TAKE THEM TO COURT FOR ANYTHING.

Lily - I have to "plough my own furrows" but wish you luck with this --with THE POINT in mind i would certainly not sign ANY rights away to sue SELECT in the future

Hi All

Does anyone know if we still have to pay the registration/building fees etc now?????? or do we only pay after a handover, what happens if we decide to go to court - do we pay them then or not????????.

What happens to the property if court action is taken (LPP), do we just have to keep paying the LPP, is there a stop put on the property until the court date, and what happens if we lose. I can't see that happening really, but its the wait.

Thank you all for any answers.

^^^^
i have an ongoing arbitration case against select reference their force majeure claim in Bay Central. because their claim is invalid based on the research i did, I stopped making the LPP payments. The tribunal will decide who breached the contract. Here is what the law says about this:

Article 247 of UAE's Civil Code.

"In contracts binding upon both parties, if the mutual obligations are due for performance, each of the parties may refuse to perform his obligation if the other contracting party does not perform that which he is obliged to do."

Damac's appeal against compensation dismissed
DIFC court tells developer to pay Dh1.7m to Irish couple

http://gulfnews.com/business/propert...issed-1.828451

FYI

6 new property laws that will impact you
From an investor protection law in Dubai, to a mortgage law for Abu Dhabi, 2011 will be a watershed year for property legislation.

http://www.emirates247.com/property/real-estate/6-new-property-laws-that-will-impact-you-2011-01-04-1.337677

New Laws !!!!!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They can make many many new laws, but if not enforced, they are not worth the paper they are written on< its just more talk form UAE to try to resolve the property crash they have incurred, and try in vain to drive property prices back up! but again it will just be at the cost of the poor investor, they should try enforce the laws that are already in situ, before making any more they cant or wont control!

New Laws !!!!!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They can make many many new laws, but if not enforced, they are not worth the paper they are written on< its just more talk form UAE to try to resolve the property crash they have incurred, and try in vain to drive property prices back up! but again it will just be at the cost of the poor investor, they should try enforce the laws that are already in situ, before making any more they cant or wont control!
Are you intimating that investors should not consider taking legal action against Select?

Select Property, the leading supplier of high-quality overseas property for investment purposes has announced that it will offer purchasers a flexible ten year payment plan when buying in their latest development in the Bay of Gulluk, Turkey.

Removing the need for a loan or mortgage, which are not yet commonplace in Turkey, Select Property is offering purchasers a 75% non-status lengthy payment plan for property in their new Horizon Sky development

http://www.selectproperty.com/invest/turkey/investment-property/horizon-sky/).

Hi All

Well IMPY - I have been there also with this company and guess what, I was told surprise surprise lots of lies, promises, false hopes etc., is this story familiar.....

You will read about the famous clubhouse due for completion in 2008, the company hasn’t even started it yet, hence a lack of rentals. Fees have doubled in one go I bet this is sounding very familiar, but all true.

Select seems to get honest everyday people to trust them and then they do not deliver, and then stamp on them with a contract they can change to suit.

Ask me more if you want to but this company really does need to be exposed for what it is - and soon.

Anyone out there who can make this happen really needs to expose them, and give some justice to the genuine honest people they have ripped off.

Thank you.

Hi All

Well IMPY - I have been there also with this company and guess what, I was told surprise surprise lots of lies, promises, false hopes etc., is this story familiar.....

You will read about the famous clubhouse due for completion in 2008, the company hasn’t even started it yet, hence a lack of rentals. Fees have doubled in one go I bet this is sounding very familiar, but all true.

Select seems to get honest everyday people to trust them and then they do not deliver, and then stamp on them with a contract they can change to suit.

Ask me more if you want to but this company really does need to be exposed for what it is - and soon.

Anyone out there who can make this happen really needs to expose them, and give some justice to the genuine honest people they have ripped off.

Thank you.


I have already made contact with SFO.
But to add to this, I urge you to provide details to this website address: www.actionfraud.org.uk

Lily - I have to "plough my own furrows" but wish you luck with this --with THE POINT in mind i would certainly not sign ANY rights away to sue SELECT in the future

HOW LOW CAN YOU GO...

Just to mention the number of WINS at court for investors that take it through...

DAMAC lost some high profile cases recently...

http://gulfnews.com/business/property/gulf/damac-s-appeal-against-compensation-dismissed-1.828451

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobudubai
I still don't get it. Rahail Aslam, who we never heard of until relatively recently, is the CEO of Select Group. Apparently Select Group is the 'parent company' of Torch Select Ltd. according to Mistermark, certainly this was never mentioned in the contract where "Torch Select Ltd. is the seller - and that's it! no mention of a 'parent' company. Contracts are with Torch Select Ltd. and Torch Select Ltd. only, not with Select Group or anybody else.

What exactly is Rahail Aslam's accountability for 'Torch Select Ltd', what does 'parent' mean? When Torch Select Ltd. was born, did it have a 'parent' ? If not then how did this 'parent' come into being?

We were originally told that Torch Select Ltd was a 'sister'. A project specific 'sister' of the developer. The other problem we don't understand is birthplace. Torch Select Ltd. was born in the Jebel Ali Free Zone. The developer was born in the U.K., and or Dubai. The 'parent' was we believe born in Dubai. The developer Dubai Select LLC, born in Dubai, whose sister is Torch Select Ltd, born in JAFZA, with 'parent' Select Group who was also born in Dubai. Question is - how exactly are these other family members legally accountable for the anonymous 'Torch Select Ltd?'
Do the beneficiaries of Torch Select Ltd. get off scott free?

Anybody can answer this very serious question? Anybody at all?

^^^^
i have an ongoing arbitration case against select reference their force majeure claim in Bay Central. because their claim is invalid based on the research i did, I stopped making the LPP payments. The tribunal will decide who breached the contract. Here is what the law says about this:

Article 247 of UAE's Civil Code.

"In contracts binding upon both parties, if the mutual obligations are due for performance, each of the parties may refuse to perform his obligation if the other contracting party does not perform that which he is obliged to do."

thanks for advice regarding Art247
the advise you put on the Select thread is great and I started reading about it and this is what I have found:

"the DIFC is most remarkable for its unique legal apparatus. The DIFC has its own legal system: its own laws and its own courts to apply them. Its system of civil law is very different from the law that applies outside its walls in the rest of the UAE. Whilst the UAE is an Arabic-speaking civil code jurisdiction, the law applied by the DIFC courts is based on the common law. In effect, the DIFC is prepared to apply what is effectively a foreign law to its commercial life. This demonstrates a flexibility of mindset that speaks volumes about its
willingness to accommodate the preferences of its users – and its commitment to attract investment. For the same reasons, English has been adopted as the language of the law and of the courts. An adaptation of the English Civil Procedure Rules – the Rules of the DIFC Court (RDC) – even applies to procedural matters."
The Link- http://www.herbertsmith.com/NR/rdonl...rbitration.pdf

I can see why SG have and continue to scare investors from going to the DIFC court.
Please post more :banana:

Can someone recommend U.K. lawyers who can take these cowboys to court in the U.K., someone already familiar with this? a pm is also fine
thanks

Apologies. I thought that people wanted to report Select Property in the UK.

I have had an e mail from Selects Head of Legal: I stated that i will not be signing the Addendum's because it washes their hands of all the wrong doings over the past few years which we are all too aware of.
As i am on the LLP, they also want to have my vote with regards to the OA which means in effect they can use my vote to shaft me for outrageous mark- ups on services as they will to all of you because over half of the building are on the LLP, so I believe!!!
They keep referring me back to section 10.3 of the contract and are telling me that if I do not sign the addendum's I can pick the keys up in 10 years time when ive paid of all of the money!!!!!

Can someone post Clause 10.3! Need to compare it to my SPA in Bay Central.

This sounds like a clear violation of both, the SPA and the prevailing laws.

14/July/2011

The Torch 1 BR Type 11 fully furnished apartment photos,Dubai Marina , UAE

http://i55.tinypic.com/2j1wfer.jpg

Pics:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imresolt/sets/72157627192918354/


The Torch 1 BR Type 08 fully furnished apartment photos,Dubai Marina , UAE

http://i52.tinypic.com/1446xcy.jpg

Pics:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imresolt/sets/72157627193009662/


The Torch 2 BR Type 06 lower floor fully furnished apartment photos,Dubai Marina , UAE

http://i56.tinypic.com/2lmrw61.jpg

Pics:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imresolt/sets/72157627068486903/

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

Can any one answer what happens to the service charges if we have to wait 10 years for the handover ??

Imre - that 2 bedder is nicely done but I cannot stand the kitchen...it looks so like it is not supposed to be there. I would want to box arround it or do something... is it that bad in real life? Would you like to cook in there? Hope the non-white cooker hood has a powerful motor and is not just recirculating it arround the apartment!

Can any one answer what happens to the service charges if we have to wait 10 years for the handover ??

Why don't you write to RERA and say you are not paying the service-charge because....? See what they will say.....
I have already asked them and they say get a lawyer's advise:)

Imre - that 2 bedder is nicely done but I cannot stand the kitchen...it looks so like it is not supposed to be there. I would want to box arround it or do something... is it that bad in real life? Would you like to cook in there? Hope the non-white cooker hood has a powerful motor and is not just recirculating it arround the apartment!

Looks fine for a short term rental though, when you would not do much cooking. The higher 2 beds are probably better for long term with the separate kitchen.

Looks fine for a short term rental though, when you would not do much cooking. The higher 2 beds are probably better for long term with the separate kitchen.

That restricts your potential target market to just short term rentals then...fine if that is what you want but I feel sorry if someone bought that as their holiday home.

I am not even sure our PropertMagnet would be able to do her magic on that! Just looks like a bad layout from the pics to me. I am sure in real life a young bloke who eats out everyday would like it...

^^ feedback from the agents was that the British market like this layout best as they eat out a lot and the living room is more spacious but the asian and local market prefer the separate kitchen layout of the higher 2 beds in the Torch.

I have had an e mail from Selects Head of Legal: I stated that i will not be signing the Addendum's because it washes their hands of all the wrong doings over the past few years which we are all too aware of.
As i am on the LLP, they also want to have my vote with regards to the OA which means in effect they can use my vote to shaft me for outrageous mark- ups on services as they will to all of you because over half of the building are on the LLP, so I believe!!!
They keep referring me back to section 10.3 of the contract and are telling me that if I do not sign the addendum's I can pick the keys up in 10 years time when ive paid of all of the money!!!!!

Do you mean this one:

We write with reference to your property at The Torch and our previous communications thereto in relation to your handover. We have not received any documentation from you confirming that you will be proceeding with your handover. There is great demand from tenants in the building and a large interest by letting agents to manage and let out properties in the Torch. You could be earning a good profit on the apartment, but as the handover formalities are still pending, you are incurring service charge costs calculated as of 22nd May 2011. Whilst we have extended our handover deadline to end of July 2011 (the SPA provides that handover will complete within 20 days from completion notice) in order to facilitate all our buyers with their handover formalities, we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011. With this in mind, we advise all our buyers to take prompt actions towards securing a handover appointment well in advance of this deadline. We thus invite you to write to us to confirm whether:
a) you wish to take possession of the Property now (in which case the First and Second Addendums will need to be signed so that clause 10.3 of the SPA does not apply); or
b) you would prefer to maintain the contractual status quo and take possession of the Property when the full purchase price has been paid. We look forward to hearing from you and look forward to welcoming you to your new apartment at The Torch.



Now; that is funny :)

Do you mean this one:



Now; that is funny :)

Indeed it is. Had I still been an owner I would probably have had Aslam's kneecaps drilled for that.

Indeed it is. Had I still been an owner I would probably have had Aslam's kneecaps drilled for that.

What came first, the headless chicken or Rahail!!!:lol:

The one bedroom unit looks huge. The same as the one I sold a couple of years ago. In fact I have some spare cash at the moment and thinking of buying a one bed in TT again as rentals seems to be going very well and I could hold for 10 years+ so not too concerned with values in the short/medium term. Anybody any idea what price I could pick one of these up for and likely rental return ?? Would it be better to go for a Marina facing apartment ??

Can any one answer what happens to the service charges if we have to wait 10 years for the handover ??

Why don't you write to RERA and say you are not paying the service-charge because....? See what they will say.....
I have already asked them and they say get a lawyer's advise:)

Can someone post Clause 10.3! Need to compare it to my SPA in Bay Central.

This sounds like a clear violation of both, the SPA and the prevailing laws.

Much of the Torch Select Ltd SPA is in breach of both the Dubai Civil Code and UAE Federal Code. This is just one reason for TSL desperately wanting investors to sign addendum's 1&2. By signing the addenda you have/or will be letting TSL off the hook for the various breaches committed.

Any lawyer in the UAE who has learned to correctly spell their own name will tell you that the Federal and Civil codes override any contract that is in place between two parties and any such contract must not clearly breach any Federal or Civil codes.

One clear example is Force Majeure. - Article 273 of the UAE Civil Code states that;
“ if Force Majeure interrupts the performance of a contract such as to make it impossible for the contract to be performed, either wholly or in part, then the contract, or the relevant part of the contract, is extinguished or may be treated as suspended”.

This is just one example of why Torch Select Ltd are so keen for all the mugs to sign away their rights on the addendum's. There are also far more serious issues that they are trying to hide that I am currently discussing with the UAE Central Bank, which I may/or may not disclose in the near future.

Indeed it is. Had I still been an owner I would probably have had Aslam's kneecaps drilled for that.

Well that is a fascinating terrifying and disgusting comment. I think that a lot of people would be interested in the CEOs of both companies. For the sake of doubt, scoobudubai has never been just one person, in fact various families have been involved e.g. Irish and Sicilian. Whilst we would never associate ourselves with such a horrible and disgusting 'threat', we can kind of understand why people are so angry as to have made this threat.
Select should wake up and realise the amount of poison they have generated in peoples lives, people who were otherwise leading normal peaceful lives. They will not get away with it.

^^Maybe!
It is low floor and 05 (Marina View). I have been told by my agent that maybe because it is furnished is the reason it has not rented out yet. Earlier last year I was told by Select that I had a much better chance of renting it out if it was furnished and they persuaded me to buy their furniture pack at £7000+ and I fell for it!

^^ Since it is furnished, have you considered short term rentals instead?

So how many lights are lit up at night? doesn't look like much happening, building seems fairly empty, has anyone actually been notified of a completion date yet? as opposed to a completion notice. If so what was the completion date?

Just saw www.selectdubaibeware.com, interesting articles e.g. by Mark Stott etc. is all that stuff true?

"we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011." Sasha's letter

My response is as follows:

Since we have been waiting for 6 years for you to "demobilize" your self out of our building, I am sure many people like my self will be saying one thing which is GOOD RIDDANCE......in the meantime Sasha and co please leave our keys with the porters on your way out.

Regards, Lily

Don't be fooled or intimidated by this letter, it is a ploy to get those to sign who have not already. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO TAKE YOUR PROPERTY AWAY. THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT THEMSELVES WHICH WILL TAKE TIME AND WILL BE COSTLY FOR THEM.

"we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011." Sasha's letter

My response is as follows:

Since we have been waiting for 6 years for you to "demobilize" your self out of our building, I am sure many people like my self will be saying one thing which is GOOD RIDDANCE......in the meantime Sasha and co please leave our keys with the porters on your way out.:banana:

Regards, Lily

Don't be fooled or intimidated by this letter, it is a ploy to get those to sign who have not already. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO TAKE YOUR PROPERTY AWAY. THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT THEMSELVES WHICH WILL TAKE TIME AND WILL BE COSTLY FOR THEM.

I have had my 1 bed, marina view, furnished apartment up for rental with a well known agency in Dubai for nearly 2 months now and no tenant as yet. I am very disappointed. Considered selling but would would make a large loss.
I have a furnished 2 bed on the 66th floor, its a 06 marina view, been available 5 weeks now and no offers as yet

So how many people have signed the addenda, how many have succeeded in letting their apartment(s), how many are failing to let?
How many people have not signed the addenda?

Is the building complete yet, and if so has the completion date been communicated yet?

^^It is a big building and will take time to fill up. I used to be able to rent my units within a week, last time it took 3-4 weeks and plenty of viewings. I did get plenty of offers but they were mostly low ball.

Intersting to note that asking prices in the marina seem to be healthier looking than at the start of the year. Just read about a MP 1 bed going for 100k and I see listings for Jewels 1 beds at 80-85k unfurnished. Dorrabay 2 bed 120k whereas before the average was 110k. I just quote these buildings because I know that market well.

I previously estimated the market for Torch units at 65k average for 1 beds and 85k average for 2 beds. Some are suggesting the price is now 70k and 90k respectivly. So I wonder if things are improving despite the additional supply coming to the market?

So how many people have signed the addenda, how many have succeeded in letting their apartment(s), how many are failing to let?
How many people have not signed the addenda?

Is the building complete yet, and if so has the completion date been communicated yet?

Don't you think you have flogged this subject to death?

Once the building is occupied by the client(handed over) it is deemed to be complete.

If you have been issued a completion notice then refer to the contract and determine how much notice must be served and calculate it on that basis.

Don't you think you have flogged this subject to death?

Once the building is occupied by the client(handed over) it is deemed to be complete.

If you have been issued a completion notice then refer to the contract and determine how much notice must be served and calculate it on that basis.

Flogged to death? not really, am amazed that nobody else seems to care. The 'completion date' is referred to several times in the contract. Surely it deserves serious attention. As far as we are concerned, there is no 'completion date' yet, so not sure why people have already moved in.

So how many people have signed the addenda, how many have succeeded in letting their apartment(s), how many are failing to let?
How many people have not signed the addenda?

Is the building complete yet, and if so has the completion date been communicated yet?

:yawn::yawn::yawn:

If you haven't signed you should be doing something about it or prepare to wait 10 years

"we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011." Sasha's letter

My response is as follows:

Since we have been waiting for 6 years for you to "demobilize" your self out of our building, I am sure many people like my self will be saying one thing which is GOOD RIDDANCE......in the meantime Sasha and co please leave our keys with the porters on your way out.:banana:

Regards, Lily

Don't be fooled or intimidated by this letter, it is a ploy to get those to sign who have not already. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO TAKE YOUR PROPERTY AWAY. THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT THEMSELVES WHICH WILL TAKE TIME
AND WILL BE COSTLY FOR THEM.

Lily
Since quite rightly you won't sign the addendums , I wonder if you paid your fees and got a locksmith involved (change the locks) whether they could actually throw you out ?

:yawn::yawn::yawn:

If you haven't signed you should be doing something about it or prepare to wait 10 years

What are the options if out of money to pay next installment? Does Select just forfeit all money sent over 5 years?

"we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011." Sasha's letter

My response is as follows:

Since we have been waiting for 6 years for you to "demobilize" your self out of our building, I am sure many people like my self will be saying one thing which is GOOD RIDDANCE......in the meantime Sasha and co please leave our keys with the porters on your way out.

Regards, Lily

Don't be fooled or intimidated by this letter, it is a ploy to get those to sign who have not already. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO TAKE YOUR PROPERTY AWAY. THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT THEMSELVES WHICH WILL TAKE TIME AND WILL BE COSTLY FOR THEM.

Lily,

I must say that what select are doing here is undermining the sanctity of contract law. I think you should investigate the 'economic duress' angle that select are threatening you and other torch investors with. Any judge worth his salt can see that select are applying illegitimate pressure where they are seizing on the vulnerability of torch investors to take a monopoly profit e.g. Sign addendum or wait 10 years and keep paying service charges.

I think many law schools in the uk will find this case very interesting. You should approach some to see if they can help!

All the best,

Fwiw

Can any one answer what happens to the service charges if we have to wait 10 years for the handover ??

Its a good point, as the owner is responsible for the service charge, and you are technically not that, you are a part owner, up to the amonut you have paid them, so the service charge should be apportionate to that..

We have a similar situation, but it is Title Deeds we are missing, because the Developer has a Mortgage on the Property, and the Bank will not release them until the loan is cleared, yes the Bank loaned money on sold properties!!! so No deeds, No HOA Bank Accounts, No JOPD, No title, No Owny, Owny.

If you really want serious grief, buy a Trident Property for a bundle of fun.

Al

Lily
Since quite rightly you won't sign the addendums , I wonder if you paid your fees and got a locksmith involved (change the locks) whether they could actually throw you out ?

I've wondered that. Were I still an owner I'd get through reception, if necessary by giving the guy on the reception some baksheesh, break in (not that it's really breaking in - it's your apartment, after all), get the locks changed, job's a good 'un.

Remember, the courts in Dubai don't work. That's why you can't claim for your money back due to late delivery, or compensation, or any of the other mickey takes by Aslam and his court of sycophants. The uselessness of the courts means there's no way they're going to be able to do anything about it once you've taken possession.

Have watched Torch threads for long while, now managed to register. As a one-bed apartment owner I am and have been for a long time, totally confused, and not a little scared by the entire debarcle. I am on SPP and all final payments have been made, I am still refusing to sign Addendum 1. All posts now seem to be about LPP, I appreciate LPP owners serious worry. Can anyone advise on my situation re SPP and Handover. No way can I afford legal fees or any further outlay at all. Select have brought me to the brink of 'going under'. Please can anyone help?

SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?

I've wondered that. Were I still an owner I'd get through reception, if necessary by giving the guy on the reception some baksheesh, break in (not that it's really breaking in - it's your apartment, after all), get the locks changed, job's a good 'un.

Remember, the courts in Dubai don't work. That's why you can't claim for your money back due to late delivery, or compensation, or any of the other mickey takes by Aslam and his court of sycophants. The uselessness of the courts means there's no way they're going to be able to do anything about it once you've taken possession.

You'd have to be sure of power i guess but DEWA wont worry as long as they had their money ! And because all pay chiller (even for your balcony or patio !! lol ) you should get your air con

What are the options if out of money to pay next installment? Does Select just forfeit all money sent over 5 years?

if you're out of money youre in trouble i'm afraid -- sad but true

SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?

I think this will get very messy very quick. If the rental is greater than the service charge, then I would argue that the lpp buyer should receive a proportion of the rental income to cover their lpp quarterly costs. However, I don't think this is what rera had in mind when they stated that the unsold apartments the developer must pay service charges as per owners association laws. If select try and be clever and set the rent the same as the service charge, then all other torch investors would be undercut! This will never happen as there would be a lynch mob!

This should have been straight forward. Select the seller make an offer. Investor accepts offer and signs SPA. Investor pays lpp. Select construct the building. Investor gets property and continues paying lpp. Everybody happy! Making people sign adendums is clearly wrong as even the SPA states that any variance to the SPA must be made by both seller and buyer!

if you're out of money youre in trouble i'm afraid -- sad but true

So anything like that will be a windfall for Select, I'm sure that this will continue to happen, people on the LPP have a long 10 years ahead.

SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?

It's simple... if you have this statement from SG in writing then it is a declaration of a criminal intent which is punishable by imprisonment under Dubai civil law. Please produce it to Dubai police and RERA.

If it's hearsay, then dismiss it as hot air by Sasha & Co and if she or any one from SG repeat it to you then warn them that you will report it to the authority.

FWIW-
1- I don't need to ask lawyers in the UK (I am one) regarding signing under duress. Dubai does not recognise it as it's a contractual matter and you have agreed to it regardless of circumstances.

2- With regards to judges (and I work with many) it's again simple:
Put an application to court/arbitration and a judge will of course look at the case. If people just talk on this forum and don't take charge of the situation then SG will be laughing of their good fortune which brought them such gullible investors.

I and others are heading to court because we are aware of Dubai laws and have sought legal advice. I have thick skin and the more they attack me the more adamant I will be to take them to court. SO BRING IT ON.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have and are supporting me to take this fight on.

LILY

SWAN wrote "SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?"



It's simple... if you have this statement from SG in writing then it is a declaration of a criminal intent which is punishable by imprisonment under Dubai civil law. Please produce it to Dubai police and RERA.

If it's hearsay, then dismiss it as hot air by Sasha & Co and if she or any one from SG repeat it to you then warn them that you will report it to the authority.

FWIW-
1- I don't need to ask lawyers in the UK (I am one) regarding signing under duress. Dubai does not recognise it as it's a contractual matter and you have agreed to it regardless of circumstances.

2- With regards to judges (and I work with many) it's again simple:
Put an application to court/arbitration and a judge will of course look at the case. If people just talk on this forum and don't take charge of the situation then SG will be laughing of their good fortune which brought them such gullible investors.

I and others are heading to court because we are aware of Dubai laws and have sought legal advice. I have thick skin and the more they attack me the more adamant I will be to take them to court. SO BRING IT ON.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have and are supporting me to take this fight on.

LILY

Once again, those who are serious about legal action and have the finance to take SG on, then please contact me, BUT only if you have decided and ready to commit financially.

We are on course and will be funding it as a group. No time wasters please.

Any legal information, see my previous posts. Only PM me if you are ready to commit.

Lily

SWAN wrote "SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?"



It's simple... if you have this statement from SG in writing then it is a declaration of a criminal intent which is punishable by imprisonment under Dubai civil law. Please produce it to Dubai police and RERA.

If it's hearsay, then dismiss it as hot air by Sasha & Co and if she or any one from SG repeat it to you then warn them that you will report it to the authority.

FWIW-
1- I don't need to ask lawyers in the UK (I am one) regarding signing under duress. Dubai does not recognise it as it's a contractual matter and you have agreed to it regardless of circumstances.

2- With regards to judges (and I work with many) it's again simple:
Put an application to court/arbitration and a judge will of course look at the case. If people just talk on this forum and don't take charge of the situation then SG will be laughing of their good fortune which brought them such gullible investors.

I and others are heading to court because we are aware of Dubai laws and have sought legal advice. I have thick skin and the more they attack me the more adamant I will be to take them to court. SO BRING IT ON.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have and are supporting me to take this fight on.

LILY

Lily,

I take my hat off to you. Rahail Aslam and others from Select are laughing
all the way to the bank. It's about time someone put a stop to this daylight
robery. Good luck.

Lily,

I take my hat off to you. Rahail Aslam and others from Select are laughing
all the way to the bank. It's about time someone put a stop to this daylight
robery. Good luck.

I know people go on and on about Select Group, but the contract is with Torch Select Ltd an offshore company in JAFZA, not with Select Group.

Is Select Group really a UAE company? Select Holdings, to whom your Torch property would presumably be assigned should you breach the contract, is another offshore company but this time in The Seychelles, another anonymous tax haven presumably popular with the criminally minded. The intention is clear that the UAE SPA would become useless, the apartment would be 'given' to Select Holdings in The Seychelles, and that would be the end. Does anyone know Seychelle's laws?

Are you saying that the money trail leads to the Seychelles for all these Select companies? Who are the beneficiaries of Select Holdings in The Seychelles? Can anyone hazard a guess?

I know people go on and on about Select Group, but the contract is with Torch Select Ltd an offshore company in JAFZA, not with Select Group.

Is Select Group really a UAE company? Select Holdings, to whom your Torch property would presumably be assigned should you breach the contract, is another offshore company but this time in The Seychelles, another anonymous tax haven presumably popular with the criminally minded. The intention is clear that the UAE SPA would become useless, the apartment would be 'given' to Select Holdings in The Seychelles, and that would be the end. Does anyone know Seychelle's laws?

You know there are so many Selects out there that it's hard to keep track
of them all. How convenient!

SWAN wrote "SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?"



It's simple... if you have this statement from SG in writing then it is a declaration of a criminal intent which is punishable by imprisonment under Dubai civil law. Please produce it to Dubai police and RERA.

If it's hearsay, then dismiss it as hot air by Sasha & Co and if she or any one from SG repeat it to you then warn them that you will report it to the authority.

FWIW-
1- I don't need to ask lawyers in the UK (I am one) regarding signing under duress. Dubai does not recognise it as it's a contractual matter and you have agreed to it regardless of circumstances.

2- With regards to judges (and I work with many) it's again simple:
Put an application to court/arbitration and a judge will of course look at the case. If people just talk on this forum and don't take charge of the situation then SG will be laughing of their good fortune which brought them such gullible investors.

I and others are heading to court because we are aware of Dubai laws and have sought legal advice. I have thick skin and the more they attack me the more adamant I will be to take them to court. SO BRING IT ON.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have and are supporting me to take this fight on.

LILY

I doubt if they would ever put this in writing. They are naïve but not stupid.

As for the services charges, if they refused to hand over, completion has not taken place and therefore, they can not enforce service charges for something you can't use. Completely different story to Uncle Al's Trident stuff.

I have been speaking to an ex-Select employee and my advisor is currently drafting a statement to agree on, sign and getting it certified. We have also a few nice surprises for the Select Mob. Crooks always get what they deserve and I will not stop also until I get justice for a few people.

The guys in the UK lied to me up to very recently, face to face too from what I just found our recently and I intend in making sure that they pay for making me look like a fool.

All the best to you too on your path for justice. I had my doubts about you but it looks like I may have been wrong about you and you are not the same lady that spoke to my wife a few weeks back.

To quote Ezekiel (and Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction)

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.

And you will know my name when I lay my vengeance upon thee. :cheers:

I doubt if they would ever put this in writing. They are naïve but not stupid.

As for the services charges, if they refused to hand over, completion has not taken place and therefore, they can not enforce service charges for something you can't use. Completely different story to Uncle Al's Trident stuff.

I have been speaking to an ex-Select employee and my advisor is currently drafting a statement to agree on, sign and getting it certified. We have also a few nice surprises for the Select Mob. Crooks always get what they deserve and I will not stop also until I get justice for a few people.

The guys in the UK lied to me up to very recently, face to face too from what I just found our recently and I intend in making sure that they pay for making me look like a fool.

All the best to you too on your path for justice. I had my doubts about you but it looks like I may have been wrong about you and you are not the same lady that spoke to my wife a few weeks back.

To quote Ezekiel (and Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction)

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.

And you will know my name when I lay my vengeance upon thee. :cheers:

Well this ex-employee strategy is paying some dividends for us too, but we have more work to do.

Does anyone have contact details for Katie Moore and Jillian Griffett (note spelling). There are several other ex-employees but just those two in this posting.

Mackie - I hope the vengeance to which you refer will not end in knee operations as per Mr. Marks posting? As we said this is a disgusting attitude and 2 rights do not make a wrong.
Nice of you to refer to us as 'brothers'.

Are you saying that the money trail leads to the Seychelles for all these Select companies? Who are the beneficiaries of Select Holdings in The Seychelles? Can anyone hazard a guess?

Whats your point ?? Dont worry about who owns what that wont help anyway -Concentrate on helping Lily I would if I were on LTPP --

Need some wisdom from e.g. Lily.

The assignment letter that people signed, e.g. an extremely foolish scoobudubai, means that the investment SPA is completely thrown out after e.g. 2 months of non-payment, and the investment (i.e. ALL your money) moves to a new owner in The Seychelles, with presumably the intention that such an infortunate investor would have -NO- legal recourse anywhere...would that not demonstrate again that Select are out to effectively 'steal' investors money whereever possible at the earliest opportunity?

The assignment agreement said Select Holdings Ltd, but absolutely no mention that this company is an offshore company in - The Seychelles - !! subject to god knows what jurisdiction, maybe none! might as well sue a black hole if you are unfortunate to get that far.

Lily what say as you are a legal expert
Am I wrong?

Need some wisdom from e.g. Lily.

The assignment letter that people signed, e.g. an extremely foolish scoobudubai, means that the investment SPA is completely thrown out after e.g. 2 months of non-payment, and the investment (i.e. ALL your money) moves to a new owner in The Seychelles, with presumably the intention that such an infortunate investor would have -NO- legal recourse anywhere...would that not demonstrate again that Select are out to effectively 'steal' investors money whereever possible at the earliest opportunity?

The assignment agreement said Select Holdings Ltd, but absolutely no mention that this company is an offshore company in - The Seychelles - !! subject to god knows what jurisdiction, maybe none! might as well sue a black hole if you are unfortunate to get that far.

Lily what say as you are a legal expert
Am I wrong?

sorry - self proclaimed!

Attention to All Those Who Are Seeking Legal Action

If you wish to join me to take legal action, then please PM me, but only those who are serious, committed financially and willing to take it all the way if SG does not retreat its position from handing over unconditionally.

I can only take people who are genuine, serious and committed, and strong willed, where trust is paramount. If you are uncertain about my credentials, please see my previous posts and support I have had from others. I am a criminal lawyer in the UK and I am only trying to help those who are in the same position as me.

The deadline to join us is set to 25th July 2011. This deadline is not going to be extended, and I will not respond to any enquiries after that date. I hope you will understand that we have not got time to waste and time is of the essence to act.
Regards
Lily

Attention to All Those Who Are Seeking Legal Action

If you wish to join me to take legal action, then please PM me, but only those who are serious, committed financially and willing to take it all the way if SG does not retreat its position from handing over unconditionally.

I can only take people who are genuine, serious and committed, and strong willed, where trust is paramount. If you are uncertain about my credentials, please see my previous posts and support I have had from others. I am a criminal lawyer in the UK and I am only trying to help those who are in the same position as me.

The deadline to join us is set to 25th July 2011. This deadline is not going to be extended, and I will not respond to any enquiries after that date. I hope you will understand that we have not got time to waste and time is of the essence to act.
Regards
Lily

sorry - self proclaimed!

Excellent, your twisted logic astounds! Still gunning for Lily? WHY?? So they haven't fired you yet,, but you've been exposed. Haven't you? Go on,, keep it up. It's actually good reading. You and Dubai Steve.

I know that one employee bought an 06 2 bed unit low floor around the same time that I purchased mine- old numbering I believe 1006 or 1206- I will look through my old emails paperwork to see if I can get the name.

Has any one had any contact with the Serious Fraud Office yet ??