TGV - ICE - Shinkansen [Archive]

Extmn

September 24th, 2004, 08:55 AM

Shinkansen is great for mountanous topography because the locomotive moves by the dynamic dispersion mode. therefore it has better accelration.

But why Korea chose the TGV alstom over Shinkansen despite of the fact that its topography is more mountanous than Japan?

Because of the anti japanese notion and some behind deal with Franch government(both countries agreed returning back of the Korean cultural assets being exihited in the French museum but the museum was desperately against the desicion,so Korea failed to get them returning back)

Anyways its great that Korea is trying to develope a new high speed model.
Anybodys who belive that French alstom transferred core techs to develope a new high speed model for Korea is wrong.

They just transferred reveled common techs only that were clearly printed on the manual. Its very natural that nobody wants to transfer core techs to anyones.
Then Korea is stupid introducing the inferior trains from France. The same shit as China who has wasted money for the unpopular Shanghai maglev, which no countries have ever put into practice for the tax concerns. Besides, they are always trying to steal the technology from Japan. If you don't like Japan then you should stop trading with them completely. It's easier for Japan not wasting money for some silly ODA and leave you 3rd world country people to die in cold. :)

Phil

September 24th, 2004, 09:54 AM

Stuborn ass.

hmm ? am i wrong ? :sleepy:

TRZ

September 24th, 2004, 11:04 AM

I thought I saw an article at somepoint about the possibility of a Korea-bound Shinkansen... it was in Japanese though, so I didn't read it (but I could read the headline... I can half-read Japanese, but not enough yet).

Matthieu

September 24th, 2004, 11:30 AM

TRZ

September 24th, 2004, 12:28 PM

Korea choosed the TGV (KTX).

Aha! So that's KTX, that explains what that article was about.

Prestonian

September 24th, 2004, 02:14 PM

Did China opt for TGV then? I think they ruled out Maglev a while ago.

elee

September 24th, 2004, 03:06 PM

I've read an article that China ordered highspeed rail construction 40% for Japanese company,
40% for French company, and 20% for Canadian company.
But I dont know whether it is true or not.

Same as Southkorea, Chinese young people have strong Anti-Japanese sentiment,
so many chinese netizen participates in Anti-Shinkansen movement. :(
I think the possibility of the Shinkansen is pretty low.

BTW Taiwan choose Shinkansen 700Tseries, and she will start operation in 2005.

http://whhh.fc2web.com/image/700T/040130kb_700T.jpg
http://whhh.fc2web.com/image/700T/040130udn_700T.jpg
http://whhh.fc2web.com/image/700T/12.jpg
http://whhh.fc2web.com/image/700T/11.jpg
http://whhh.fc2web.com/image/700T/040130nk_700T.jpg

Taiwan HighSpeed Rail Company, Shinkansen-700T :cheers:

TRZ

September 24th, 2004, 07:02 PM

Not bad on Taiwan's Shinkansen, but not even close to being as stylish as the shinkansen engines of Japan. The passenger cars seem to look the same, but the engine... zah? :sleepy:

elee

September 24th, 2004, 07:34 PM

Not bad on Taiwan's Shinkansen, but not even close to being as stylish as the shinkansen engines of Japan. The passenger cars seem to look the same, but the engine... zah? :sleepy:

700T is the newest Shinkansen customized for Taiwan, and it was made by Japanese manufacture
Kawasaki Heavy Industry Kobe Factory, so quality is NEVER inferior to Japanese one.

700T's orange color was designed by THSR company, and it'll be beautiful contrast with the deep green of Taiwan! :)

empersouf

September 24th, 2004, 07:42 PM

The TGV Duplex!

Extmn

September 24th, 2004, 08:19 PM

Korea choosed the TGV (KTX).

I vote for Shinkansen for the design. Until the next TGV NG is avaible.

TGV top speed record is 513km/h, but the 8500hp engines can deploy a 700km:H top speed (unreachable of course)
I've checked the Chronology of the Shinkansens, sorry, that was my mistake. The TGV holds the world's record - the Shinkansen is the second to TGV, recorded 443km/h in 1996. Japan's world record is the Maglev's 581km/h, not the conventional trains.

By the way the next generation Shinkansens I was talking about a while ago is the JR East lines type E954 and E955, reaching up to 400km/h and operating at 360km/h, comparising a part of the Shinkansen Tohoku Line. They will be used as prototype and then into the operation from 2013. But before then, a 350km/h train will be introduced to the Sanyo Shinkansens in 2007.

"The trains will incorporate a number of features to reduce exterior and interior noise at high speeds. Active suspension and tilting will be used to maintain ride comfort. The trains will have two different end designs, both of which feature a taper of 16 m, more than half the length of the 27.3 m long end cars. This is to minimize "tunnel boom" when trains enter and leave tunnels at high speed. "

Matthieu

September 24th, 2004, 08:22 PM

We also have a next generation of TGV on the way.

Extmn

September 24th, 2004, 08:42 PM

But compare the operation speeds - the JR West Sanyo Shinkansen Nozomi Type 500 still is the fastest train in this sense. It runs between Hiroshima and Kokura 192km, average speed 261.8km/h, and the maximum at 300km/h. Then TGV between Valence and Avignon 129.7km, average speed 259.4km/h and the maximum at 300km/h.

TRZ

September 25th, 2004, 06:19 AM

700T is the newest Shinkansen customized for Taiwan, and it was made by Japanese manufacture
Kawasaki Heavy Industry Kobe Factory, so quality is NEVER inferior to Japanese one.

700T's orange color was designed by THSR company, and it'll be beautiful contrast with the deep green of Taiwan! :)
:bash: I made not one reference to quality, I was talking solely about style/appearance. It's not so much the colour as the shape, but I'm not wild about the colour either - I prefer darker, cooler colours as oppose to lighter, warmer ones, which is why I love the 500.

TRZ

September 25th, 2004, 06:21 AM

Matthieu

September 25th, 2004, 10:02 AM

^Note that it's also on a shorter distance, means less acceleration.

gentlejunho

September 25th, 2004, 02:09 PM

Then Korea is stupid introducing the inferior trains from France. The same shit as China who has wasted money for the unpopular Shanghai maglev, which no countries have ever put into practice for the tax concerns. Besides, they are always trying to steal the technology from Japan. If you don't like Japan then you should stop trading with them completely. It's easier for Japan not wasting money for some silly ODA and leave you 3rd world country people to die in cold. :)

I am wondering if you even know the meaning of ODA and the trading balance between Korea and Japan?

Do you think that the Tawan shinkansen was the best option for them?
Get a life!
:)

gentlejunho

September 25th, 2004, 02:31 PM

Taiwan reaffirmed plans on Wednesday the 22nd to contract the Euro-Train engineering group for a US$13.4 billion high-speed train, clearing weeks of uncertainty over which technology -- European or Japanese -- was preferred. (July 23rd 1998)

http://www.eriksrailnews.com/archive/e_world.htm

anybody knows the behind story that Taiwan once seriously considering Eurotrain(Franco-German consortium) but suddenly turned into shinkansen?

The Tainwan Highspeed railroad company had to pay for the penalty for the losing of the lawsuit by Eurotrain company.

I am still have some doubt if Taiwan made the best choice of shinkansen,plus the TW shinkansen inside of the locomotive looks really uncomfortable.

elee

September 25th, 2004, 06:35 PM

I made not one reference to quality, I was talking solely about style/appearance. It's not so much the colour as the shape, but I'm not wild about the colour either - I prefer darker, cooler colours as oppose to lighter, warmer ones, which is why I love the 500.

Aww, sorry for my poor English comprehension.
I also prefer Shinkansen's cooler colours, too.

http://www.eriksrailnews.com/archive/e_world.htm

anybody knows the behind story that Taiwan once seriously considering Eurotrain(Franco-German consortium) but suddenly turned into shinkansen?

The Tainwan Highspeed railroad company had to pay for the penalty for the losing of the lawsuit by Eurotrain company.

I am still have some doubt if Taiwan made the best choice of shinkansen,plus the TW shinkansen inside of the locomotive looks really uncomfortable.

External factors, such as ICE's derailment accident and Central Taiwan earthquake might affected last inversion.

In addition, Shinkansen's capability about congested train schedule (3min30sec head) suits Taiwanese social structure than TGV (IMO),
and her comprehensive management system was also evaluated by the THSR company.

I think TGV efficient in a continental country with large plains,
Shinkansen efficient in a high density country with Complicated geographical feature. :cheers:

Alzheimer

September 25th, 2004, 09:00 PM

^Note that it's also on a shorter distance, means less acceleration.
Why? Geographically France is much more advantagious than Japan, where typically is very mountanious and have to take into account of many curves, tunnels, slopes, etc.

Matthieu

September 25th, 2004, 09:10 PM

Alzheimer

September 25th, 2004, 09:48 PM

1st: Ever been in those trains? The acceleration is slow.

2nd: The provence isn't flat. Far from that, it's a very accidented landscapes. And, more generaly, the southern France is VERY far from flat.

3rd: Doesn't matter cause even if it's not flat, they built tunnel and bridges so Japan or France aren't handicaped by that exepted in the run for speed for the cost.
Well you first got started the "distance". Distance doesn't really matter for the acceleration betwen 130km and 180km that much. And also that 2km/h or so lead of Japan is tiny. TGVs and Shinkansens are tied in terms of the speed or you do even better besides the commercial operations. But the Shinkansens are safer and more comfortable though. What features do you have for the TGVs, apart from the speed?

Matthieu

September 25th, 2004, 09:50 PM

Ho, I just noticed Extrm got banned.

You're trying to beat your personnal record of the fastest created new account?

So far I remember, Extrmn was created 10minutes after Justhe got banned.

Nick

September 25th, 2004, 10:03 PM

Ive been on all three.

The ice once from Munich to Berlin

The TGV 3 times over a 5 year period.

And the Shinkansen about 1000 times.

The ice isnt highspeed track in some sections.

The TVG is highspeed from North to South but not in alot of branch lines.

The shinkansen is high speed on all tracks.And in most sections elevated 10m above the ground on a viaduct

Ning

September 25th, 2004, 10:11 PM

A nice site about the TGV : http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/tgvindex.html

the TGV has also the world endurance record: 1067 km in 3h29 from Lille (near Belgium) to Marseille (french riviera)
The TGV map :

http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/jpg/tgvgeomap.jpg

tayser

September 26th, 2004, 03:40 AM

Train à Grande Vitesse all the way!

TGV still holds the Steel wheel on Steel rail record,

http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/jpg/plaque515.jpg

Maglev is a different type of train - one that has barely had a commercial implemenation in 30 years? oh sorry, some pissy Shanghai Airport train (7km - boring).

TGV Atlantique on its record run:

http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/jpg/tgvawr3.jpg

The thing that holds it back from going over 500kph is the pantograph, it was found that that's the main drawback, note the sparks on the record run:

http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/jpg/TGV7.JPG

But let's face it, France, Germany and Japan (and maybe Canada) are probably the only countries which are going to push & develop rail technology in the coming years.

more about the record run here: http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/rec-intro.html

TRZ

September 26th, 2004, 06:08 PM

The shinkansen is high speed on all tracks.And in most sections elevated 10m above the ground on a viaduct

Like I said, it is the only standard-gauge rail service in all Japan, of course it is all high-speed track :) . The viaducts it runs on though can be a real eye-sore. However, it made for some really interesting juxtaposition shots in Kyoto. I have a photo of a Shinkansen ripping across on that type of viaduct, directly above an old temple gate.

TRZ

September 26th, 2004, 06:22 PM

TGV still holds the Steel wheel on Steel rail record
This is a very noteworthy record worthy of praise, but this cannot really be taken seriously in regards to operating speeds, which is what really counts. You can't advertise 500+ km/h if you can't run at that speed on your runs all the time.

Maglev is a different type of train - one that has barely had a commercial implemenation in 30 years? oh sorry, some pissy Shanghai Airport train (7km - boring).

30 years? Try never. The technology has been strictly R&D since a couple of years before the Shinkansen opened. The Shanghai project I think is both good and bad. Good in that it gives a real world example of a commercial application of the technology. However, I think that marketing wise it is not a very wise route/application.

I think that the greatest example of maglev potential is a link between New Tokyo Narita Airport and Tokyo Haneda Airport, via Tokyo Station. Those two airports need to be connected by an ultra-highspeed link so that they can almost operate as one airport. The Tokyo Monorail is definately not going to cut it, not even with its newly opened express runs between the two terminus stations (well, 3 terminus stations, it stops at the 2nd last downtown Tokyo station as well). Nor will the Keisei/Toei/Keikyuu cooperatively-operated connection between the two airports ever come close to being considered acceptable.

There's also been talk of yet another Tokaido relief line, that would likely be Maglev. This is also a great idea with much potential, connection Tokyo and Osaka in about an hour or so.

Maglev's potential for international transport is huge if operated inside a vacuum (5000km/h (5 thousand), but is so expensive a concept it is probably unrealistic.

The thing that holds it back from going over 500kph is the pantograph, it was found that that's the main drawback, note the sparks on the record run:

This is an interesting point. I hadn't thought about this but I was aware that the pantograph is a fragile element in railway technology, and can limit speed. One wonders why the TGV not run on diesel or other power source?

But let's face it, France, Germany and Japan (and maybe Canada) are probably the only countries which are going to push & develop rail technology in the coming years.

Canada's plans are dinky by comparison. I'm rather dissapointed with the charade that has been going on with VIA rail and the discussions of improvements along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. I think it may not even get off the ground in the long run. It's quite a joke :(

bluga

September 26th, 2004, 06:23 PM

The newest and most advanced Shinkansen Train --- Taiwan High Speed Rail.

Poryaa

September 26th, 2004, 08:50 PM

The Chinese Railway Ministry's project with an estimated contract value of 100 billion yen aims to double the speed of trains on five major existing railway lines, stretching over a total of 2,000 kilometers, to 200 kilometers per hour. Chinese train manufacturer Nanche Sifang Locomotive teamed up with the six Japanese firms -- Hitachi, Mitsubishi Electric, Itochu, Mitsubishi and Marubeni as well as Kawasaki Heavy.

The six Japanese companies are expected to offer a modified version of East Japan Railway Co.'s Hayate Shinkansen bullet train, which can run at a top speed of 275 kph.

This will mark the first major transfer of Japan's Shinkansen technology to China.

http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/chine...rain-36246.html

Well, most of Japanese people are anxious about the transfer of its technology to China.

odegaard

September 27th, 2004, 12:51 AM

Maglev's potential for international transport is huge if operated inside a vacuum (5000km/h (5 thousand), but is so expensive a concept it is probably unrealistic.

This is an interesting point. I hadn't thought about this but I was aware that the pantograph is a fragile element in railway technology, and can limit speed. One wonders why the TGV not run on diesel or other power source? The proper alignment of a track becomes more critical as the speeds are increased. Simply put the faster you run the trains the tighter the tolerances are for everything. Because of this, even if a maglev train is built to run through a vacuum tunnel that doesn't necessarily mean it can run 5000km/ hr. There's enough difficulty in keeping the transrapid line in Shanghai properly aligned within specifications as is....to guarantee an expensive operational maintenance expense....now imagine doing the same for a 5000km/hr train?

As for the pantograph.... Did you know the first TGV trains were actually gas turbine electric powered? However the oil shocks of the 70's efectively scraped that idea since electric trains are more energy efficient since they weigh less.

TRZ

September 27th, 2004, 05:17 AM

The proper alignment of a track becomes more critical as the speeds are increased. Simply put the faster you run the trains the tighter the tolerances are for everything. Because of this, even if a maglev train is built to run through a vacuum tunnel that doesn't necessarily mean it can run 5000km/ hr. There's enough difficulty in keeping the transrapid line in Shanghai properly aligned within specifications as is....to guarantee an expensive operational maintenance expense....now imagine doing the same for a 5000km/hr train?

As for the pantograph.... Did you know the first TGV trains were actually gas turbine electric powered? However the oil shocks of the 70's efectively scraped that idea since electric trains are more energy efficient since they weigh less.

That's true, those locomotives get really heavy really fast by comparison.

As for the maglev, the maintenance costs would actually be extremely low - maglev is frictionless and so naturally experiences no wear-and-tear from operation. The catch is of course seeing to its proper design and construction.

It also takes forever to accelerate to a speed such as 5000km/h (it takes half an hour to accelerate, and another half-hour to decelerate and stop), but for the long distances such a speed would be used for makes that a non-issue. The technology could cross all of Eurasia in 2, maybe 2 and a half hours, perhaps longer depending on the route (if it meanders a lot).

Not that any of it matters, the extreme cost is prohibitive.

tayser

September 27th, 2004, 09:34 AM

Canada's plans are dinky by comparison. I'm rather dissapointed with the charade that has been going on with VIA rail and the discussions of improvements along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. I think it may not even get off the ground in the long run. It's quite a joke :(

I'm referring to Bombardiér not any Canadian HSR proposal,

on the Tokyo airport links: really though, who cares about a 400+ kph service over a relatively short distance? it'd have reached top speed then have to slow down again - boring!

the reason I could justify paying an enormous fare to ride one of them would be if they ran between Melbourne & Sydney (800km) - roughly tour hour trip, but again, no-one's going to spend billions on it. in our case we're best to just upgrade to something of the British standard (~225kph) on upgraded corridors that already exist.

still though, tgv would own :(

cheers

TRZ

September 27th, 2004, 06:26 PM

on the Tokyo airport links: really though, who cares about a 400+ kph service over a relatively short distance? it'd have reached top speed then have to slow down again - boring!

You miss the point, there's a dual purpose, not only are both airports connected to downtown Tokyo Station, the 2 airports are supposed to function as a group of terminals that are part of the same airport. As such, you need a lightning-fast connection between the two, ideally less than half-an-hour. Plus the line would also be hauling baggage for connecting flights. Hardly boring as this would be a new breed of airport operation dependant on a high-speed maglev "couplink" between the two.

The distance isn't all that short either, on current railway technology it takes an hour from the airport to Tokyo Station, non-stop direct run. 67km, and to Haneda is probably close to 100km altogether from airport to airport.

This isn't actually on the books, which is a shame, because they are trying to get the two airports to function as one. Anybody that wants to transfer from an international flight to a domestic flight is forced to go via Kansai airport instead of Narita, since Kansai handles both domestic and international flights, which Narita doesn't.

What is also a shame though is that the current Shinkansen network never took into consideration the airports in its networks, and still aren't even with the new Nagoya airport. There was a proposed Shinkansen branch to Narita Airport, but I don't think it actually got approval (or is it still being looked at?).

eomer

September 27th, 2004, 06:40 PM

Don't miss something: if you want to go fast, trainset is less important than track.
Japan got the best HSR network at this time. France, Germany, Belgium and even Italy, Netherlands or UK got interesting network but that's not enough.
In Europe: Spain will be probabilly the best in the futur.

For France's HSR Network in the futur:
http://lgv2030.free.fr/cartes/francetgv.jpg

Zoom on Paris's metropolitan area:
http://lgv2030.free.fr/cartes/idftgv.jpg

odegaard

September 28th, 2004, 07:47 AM

Don't miss something: if you want to go fast, trainset is less important than track.
Japan got the best HSR network at this time.Bingo! Japan has more miles of dedicated HSR (high speed rail) track then any other nation. It can be argued that the greatest difficulty (in terms of engineering and also finance) to creating a HSR network is creating the tracks not the trains.

I think it should be noted that traveling thru a tunnel at high speeds creates a massive pressure differential which may implode the windows, because of this a high speed train can never reach it's full speed potential going thru a tunnel...that and I'm also assuming there's greater air resistance going thru a tunnel? (yes/no?)

The TGV trains don't have this problem because it's HSR tracks never pass through tunnels.

Phil

September 28th, 2004, 07:56 AM

The TGV trains don't have this problem because it's HSR tracks never pass through tunnels.

huu...are you sure about that ??? I'm pretty sure the TGV med line at least has a bunch of tunnels, short maybe, but tunnels.

TRZ

September 28th, 2004, 10:01 AM

Bingo! Japan has more miles of dedicated HSR (high speed rail) track then any other nation. It can be argued that the greatest difficulty (in terms of engineering and also finance) to creating a HSR network is creating the tracks not the trains.

I think it should be noted that traveling thru a tunnel at high speeds creates a massive pressure differential which may implode the windows, because of this a high speed train can never reach it's full speed potential going thru a tunnel...that and I'm also assuming there's greater air resistance going thru a tunnel? (yes/no?)

The TGV trains don't have this problem because it's HSR tracks never pass through tunnels.
You're smart! This is a very good point, but one that has been well addressed in Japan. The engine heads of the faster Shinkansen trains try to reduce this pressure blast as much as possible. This can only go so far though. As such, special extended tunnel entrances are constructed for Shinkansen tunnels. These projecting tunnel entrances are rather tricky, expensive, and space consuming. They do, however, work properly. Shinkansen trains do not need to slow down despite tunnel usage.

odegaard

September 28th, 2004, 01:10 PM

huu...are you sure about that ??? I'm pretty sure the TGV med line at least has a bunch of tunnels, short maybe, but tunnels.I read that somewhere so I'm not 100%....I wouldn't bet my life savings on it ;)

I'm quite sure the TGV trains must pass thru tunnels at some point while traveling on the regular speed lines. Hey France is a decent sized country I'm quite sure it must have at least one passenger train tunnel. :tongue2:

This is an interior view of the "Bord-Restaurant" car on an ICE3 train.

wow you're never going to get that on an airplane that's for sure. BTW while the ICE trains were being developed there were efforts to "increase efficiency" read proposing eliminating the bord-restaurant in the name of decreasing weight. However the public was vehemently opposed to the plan. :cheers:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3/cab%2Binterior/ice3_restaurant.jpg

Trances

September 28th, 2004, 01:27 PM

Japanese Shinkansen for me only one been on

MCarr

September 28th, 2004, 01:59 PM

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3/cab%2Binterior/ice3_restaurant.jpg

This interior design doesnt look modern at all, very old fashioned and cheap indeed!

sdtj

September 28th, 2004, 02:15 PM

I have to go with the Shinkansen.... Love the Japanese futuristic trains..

http://www.rtri.or.jp/japanrail/JPG/Japan.Map.Shinkansen.jpg

http://tokyoyakei.cool.ne.jp/tokyo/railway/shinkansen/shinkansen-1.jpg

http://www.radicalrouting.com/psyplex/500/JR500.jpg

http://www.radicalrouting.com/psyplex/500/Shinkansen500.jpg

http://www.naoe.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jp/jobs/obog/hasegawa_images/shinkansen.jpg

http://fsmat.at/~cfabiane/gallery/japan/shinkansen02.jpg

http://www.eagano.com/FirstRun/Shinkansen/JR500_Cab.jpg

http://www.swiss-japan.org/guide_jp/gallery/photo/shinkansen500.jpg

http://www.radicalrouting.com/psyplex/500/500-0_1.jpg

http://www.radicalrouting.com/psyplex/500/500-4m.jpg

http://www.nihon-zen.ch/japon/Kobe/4/images/1532_Shinkansen.jpg

http://www.nihon-zen.ch/japon/Kobe/4/images/1533_Shinkansen.jpg

http://www.glnow.com/photos/Japan_main/images/Shinkansen-3.jpg

http://www.heasley.net/japan/Nagasaki/shinkansen.jpg

I don't know if this is high speed but looks cool... ;)

http://vlsilab.ics.es.osaka-u.ac.jp/~sakanusi/photo/rail/jpg/big/ec251-1.jpg

:)

Egocrata

September 28th, 2004, 02:37 PM

I really love the new AVE 102 trains. Designed by Talgo-Bombardier:

http://members.arstechnica.com/x/egocrata/tpnreportajepato8.jpg

They are fast. Designed for 330 Km/h operation, have an highly effective passive tiling system and the best power to weight ratio of any high speed train (24.7 Kw/t, compared to the 20 of the best Japanese designs). Just 322 t for the whole 200 m long consist.

Impressive machines.

TRZ

September 28th, 2004, 04:47 PM

I have to go with the Shinkansen.... Love the Japanese futuristic trains..

http://www.rtri.or.jp/japanrail/JPG/Japan.Map.Shinkansen.jpg

What's unfortunate though is that some of those lines are totally worthless and built through decisions around really bad and icky politics. The worst offender I think is the Joetsu Shinkansen, but I could be wrong.

I don't know if this is high speed but looks cool... ;)

http://vlsilab.ics.es.osaka-u.ac.jp/~sakanusi/photo/rail/jpg/big/ec251-1.jpg

:)
That train is not high speed, it runs on narrow gauge. I beleive that train runs on the Sobu Rapid/Yokosuka/Shounan Shinjuku Line and possibly on the Chuo Line (not sure about Chuo though).

Dong Ha Lee

September 29th, 2004, 12:35 AM

Shinkansen hands down. It'll be better if they had their own stations though.

TRZ

September 29th, 2004, 08:08 AM

Shinkansen hands down. It'll be better if they had their own stations though.
??? Eh? They have their own dedicated track network, of course they also have their own stations as a result. It is just that most (all?) of their stations are junctions/transfer points to other narrow-gauge train lines, but this is because they are built to complement and alleviate pressure on overcapacity/saturated lines.

Why there is no Chuo Shinkansen (serving Tokyo, Shinjuku, Machida, Hachioji, among some others, and joining the Tokaido around Odawara), I have no idea.

odegaard

September 29th, 2004, 09:03 AM

This interior design doesnt look modern at all, very old fashioned and cheap indeed!hmm...now that you mentioned it I agree. Maybe the Germans were going for a retro look? That pic looked like it could of been taken back during the 1960's...LOL.

But I still think the idea of an onboard restaurant is neat. :righton:

sure beats being served peanuts on an airplane :)

eomer

September 29th, 2004, 12:28 PM

I'm quite sure the TGV trains must pass thru tunnels at some point while traveling on the regular speed lines. Hey France is a decent sized country I'm quite sure it must have at least one passenger train tunnel. :tongue2:

That's thru and thre are even tunnels on HSR in France. There was no tunnel on the first LGV (Paris-Lyon) but this is definitly over. Two tunnels (Valenton and Villecresnes) were even built between Paris and Lyon to cross Paris's metropolitan area. The longest one is Marseille's tunnel on LGV Med: above 8 km.

MCarr

September 29th, 2004, 12:33 PM

hmm...now that you mentioned it I agree. Maybe the Germans were going for a retro look? That pic looked like it could of been taken back during the 1960's...LOL.

But I still think the idea of an onboard restaurant is neat. :righton:

sure beats being served peanuts on an airplane :)

In Portugal we dont have the TGV yet (still under project) but we have the pendolino which all have an onboard restaurant and even some intercity trains also have an onboard restaurant.

angaurits

September 29th, 2004, 01:22 PM

Kyushu shinkansen Tsubame
http://www.jrkyushu.co.jp/trains/images/tsubame800_svga.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/economy/11.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/buffet/08.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/semi-com/01.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/semi-com/04.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/buffet/09.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/deck/07.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/deck/01.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/deck/03.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/minishop/04.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/buffet/01.jpg

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/minishop/02.jpg

Mike

September 29th, 2004, 02:58 PM

This is an interior view of the "Bord-Restaurant" car on an ICE3 train.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3/cab%2Binterior/ice3_restaurant.jpg

Butt ugly 60s retro style:D looks like some designer ran amok. Even the ten year old ICE-2 board restaurant looks better.

Some more ICE-3 interior shots:

2nd class
http://www.ice-page.de/site/fotos/ice3/innen/2003/photos/ice3_1.jpg

1st class
http://www.ice-page.de/site/fotos/ice3/innen/2003/photos/ice3_3.jpg
http://www.ice-page.de/site/fotos/ice3/innen/2003/photos/ice3_14.jpg

Aisle between two wagons
http://www.ice-page.de/site/fotos/ice3/innen/2003/photos/ice3_21.jpg

sdtj

September 29th, 2004, 09:10 PM

Wow I love this one....

Hitachi Rail Corp. (http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/index.html#Railvehicles)

http://www.jrkyushu.co.jp/trains/images/tsubame800_svga.jpg

It looks like a space shuttle

http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now/hot_topics/hot_topics_2003/img/tsubame800.jpg

:)

zergcerebrates

September 29th, 2004, 11:56 PM

I like the Tsubame as well.

dom

September 30th, 2004, 12:27 AM

Well i've been on the ICE and the JR Hikari, Kodama, Tsubame, 700 series (duckbill design) and the JR 500 Nozomi. The JR 500 just simply makes me moist, is the current world record holder for operating speed and all round is absolutely awesome. :)

The Tsubame has a first class interior, up there with the German ICE (which was highly impressive, well done DB and Siemens). My JR 500 trip from Kokura to Hiroshima was mindblowing however as the train went over 300 km/h and you just knew that it was just cruising and could go faster if they wanted it to.

No offense intended towards the Spaniards but the new AVE in that photo looks butt ugly and i'd prefer a Shink, TGV or ICE anyday. Even if they are a bit slower. Still v. good news though. Especially if it spurs our useless government in the UK to spend more on high speed rail (completely shameful since Britain practically invented the railways and in the Mallard still holds the world speed record for a steam powered train). Brunel, Trevisthick and Stevenson must be turning in their graves.

The Eurostar is very cramped in comparison to the rest and at the moment can't really be compared to the other high speed trains as it isn't high speed all the way from Paris to London. Hopefully by 2010 they will have upgraded the speeds to 300 km/h on this route with a slimline London - Paris no-stop service which should be able to complete the journey in 2 hours. In 2007 the route from St Pancras to the Gare Du Nord will, in my opinion create a huge surge in Paris-London tourism and will be a runaway success. I see myself going to Paris around twice a year when this service opens. Hopefully this will be good for Anglo-French relations as they are currently in a very sore patch. And it should improve my woeful French language ability!

TRZ

September 30th, 2004, 10:51 AM

No offense intended towards the Spaniards but the new AVE in that photo looks butt ugly

I was wondering if it was just me. Good to know I am not alone.

I must ride the JR 500 dammit.

*puts Hiroshima at higher priority on list of places to go in Japan*

pedro

October 1st, 2004, 11:58 AM

I also love the new Talgo-Bombardier AVE S-102, we call it here "El Pato" (The Duck)

http://www.tranvia.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/nuevas/compara.jpg

Picture from tranvia.org made by Altaria

You can see it beside an AVE 100 which is the french TGV which operates the spanish lines. Maybe in terms of rolling stock the leaders are Bombardier, Siemens and Alstom (more than the countries because of the multinational nature of these companies).

In terms of lines construction, I think that Spain isn't so far away from the leaders. Spanish high speed lines are all exclusive for High Speed in all the length (exceptions are around stations). The newest lines are designed for a top speed of 350 kph (which is teh highest by the moment). It's not yet reached in commercial service because of the problems with the configuration of ERMTS.

Our landscape is very complicated. Spain is a country with lot of mountains which separate the different regions, specially the "Meseta" which a plain land of around 750 m over sea level occuping 50% of the territory. In the new North line there are two twin tunnels of 26 km long each one.

Regards,

Dennis

October 1st, 2004, 01:34 PM

Shinkansen of course !

Poryaa

October 1st, 2004, 07:09 PM

Shinkansen has the great carrying power!

Series700/16cars/1,323seats
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/700a/700a_01.jpg

1st class
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/700a/700a_02.jpg
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/700a/700a_04.jpg

Economy class
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/700a/700a_14.jpg
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/700a/700a_18.jpg

Series500/16cars/1,324seats
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/500a/500a_01.jpg

1st class
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/500a/500a_02.jpg
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/500a/500a_04.jpg

Economy class
http://www.trainseat.net/interior/shinkansen/500a/500a_05.jpg

October 1st, 2004, 07:41 PM

I only rode on the Shinkansen 300 and 700 "Hikari Rail Star" series because when I went this summer and used Japan Rail Pass, they don't allow you to board the Nozomi service, which uses mostly 500 series.

For the Tokaido, Sanyo lines, they seem to use the older 300 series a lot for Hikari service whereas for the JR East Shinkansen lines, they use much newer trains.

lindenthaler

October 1st, 2004, 07:57 PM

i voted for ICE, if germany had a own hsr network it ll own all other trains ;)

ok 2nd class ice :>
http://www.ice-fansite.com/galerie/data/media/11/IM002808.sized.jpg
http://www.ice-fansite.com/galerie/data/media/11/IM002785.sized.jpg

a part of bord restaurant
http://www.ice-fansite.com/galerie/data/media/11/IM002788.sized.jpg

first class ;)

http://www.ice-fansite.com/galerie/data/media/11/IM002717.sized.jpg
http://www.ice-fansite.com/galerie/data/media/11/ICE3_8_jpg_1_klasse_gro_raum.jpg

ICE 3 cockpit
http://www.ice-fansite.com/galerie/data/media/14/br406-fuehrerstand-01.jpg

ice3 outside
http://www.ice-fansite.com/galerie/data/media/13/ICELimburg.jpg
http://www.ice-fansite.com/galerie/data/media/15/Limburg1.jpg

Poryaa

October 1st, 2004, 10:30 PM

cockpit of series700
http://www.khi.co.jp/sharyo/tec_final/images/cab1.jpg
http://www.khi.co.jp/sharyo/tec_final/images/cab5.jpg
http://www.khi.co.jp/sharyo/tec_final/images/jrt_700_2.jpg

coldstar

October 2nd, 2004, 12:59 PM

Shinkansen lineups
700 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/c700_02/c700_012.jpg
and the photo of its compartment
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/w700e_1/w700e_101.jpg

500 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/w500_1/w500_002.jpg
800 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/k800_01/k800_002.jpg
300 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/c300_2/c300_005.jpg
E2 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/e2_01/e2_021.jpg
E1 series (full double-decks)
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/e1_01/e1_005.jpg
E3 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/e3r_2/e3r_001.jpg
E4 series (full double-decks)
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/e4_1/e4_002.jpg
400 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/e400_1/e400_02.jpg
681 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/hoku_01/hok_006.jpg
and good old 100 series
http://www.kit.hi-ho.ne.jp/train/w100_01/c100_008.jpg

sdtj

October 2nd, 2004, 01:16 PM

The Shinkansen is wining by far... I want to see more European trains... :)

http://www.setterdahl.com/trains/bullet%20train%202.jpg

http://www.setterdahl.com/trains/bullet%20train%203.jpg

http://www.toursgallery.com/japan_autumn_2002/Bullet_train.jpg

http://www.subwaywebnews.com/Railroad/10.20.02%201213%20KYOTO.jpg

http://www.billandkathleen.com/030610TripsToJapan/original/scan%201.jpg

http://www.radicalrouting.com/psyplex/500/500-3m.jpg

http://www.radicalrouting.com/psyplex/500/500-4m.jpg

http://www.marchandcody.com/tokyo_shinkansen_front.JPG

http://www.bransonbands.com/japan/13-7.jpg

http://www.andrewandolga.com/fish/photos/104_0459.JPG

http://www.heasley.net/japan/Nagasaki/shinkansen.jpg

Poryaa

October 2nd, 2004, 09:10 PM

Series E4 /16cars(all double-decked) /1,634seats(the largest capacity in the world!)

http://yamabikokomachi65.hp.infoseek.co.jp/photo/photo_se_e4p_011.jpg
http://www1.odn.ne.jp/~aaa81350/tec/e4s.jpg

Thomas I

October 5th, 2004, 05:54 AM

TGV is 300 km/h and even 320 km/h between Avignon and Aix en Provence. Of course, this speed can be reached only on special track. (Special track are standard gauge even in japan and spain)

There are no train in the world runing faster than 220 km/h outside special track even tilting trains.

No - the Spain "ICE" S-103 runs with 350km/h between Madrid and Lleida (2005: Madrid - Barcelona)

I dont have a better picture...: http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/es/electric/emu/103-Velaro/ICE_350-1474.jpg

No again: The German 415-Type trains runs with 230km/h between Hamburg and Berlin - regular service begins at December 2004.

pedro

October 5th, 2004, 05:23 PM

Unfortunately the AVE S-103 Trains are still far away from commercial service. The other trains for that line Talgo/Bombardier S-102 are passing the last test before start commercial service in the Madrid-Barcelona partly opened line. The S-102 "Pato" (see picture above) will achieve a maximun speed of 330 km/h as soon as the level 2 of ERMTS is ready. Anyway the line is designed for top speeds of 350km/h.

Regards from Madrid

eomer

October 5th, 2004, 05:37 PM

No - the Spain "ICE" S-103 runs with 350km/h between Madrid and Lleida (2005: Madrid - Barcelona)

"Spain ICE" named "Velaro" will run 350 km/h...on a special track between Madrid and Lerida (even Barcelona and Perpignan). It's a spécial track.

Thomas I

October 5th, 2004, 09:02 PM

"Spain ICE" named "Velaro" will run 350 km/h...on a special track between Madrid and Lerida (even Barcelona and Perpignan). It's a spécial track.

But with more speed than the TGV on special track.

On non-special track German ICE-T with 230km/h is the fastest service

CKATJPS

October 13th, 2004, 12:45 AM

Then Korea is stupid introducing the inferior trains from France. The same shit as China who has wasted money for the unpopular Shanghai maglev, which no countries have ever put into practice for the tax concerns. Besides, they are always trying to steal the technology from Japan. If you don't like Japan then you should stop trading with them completely. It's easier for Japan not wasting money for some silly ODA and leave you 3rd world country people to die in cold. :)

You are a stupid racialism. We are here talking about the train, and look what did you just say? I am from the 3rd country, but I am happier than you Papa. You are cursing our people to die in cold, and you know what, you will die from the nuclear bomb. I only hear Japan that is stealing the technology from other countries. That's why American says that Japs cannot create, rather copy and manufacture.

Poryaa

October 14th, 2004, 08:37 PM

You are a stupid racialism. We are here talking about the train, and look what did you just say? I am from the 3rd country, but I am happier than you Papa. You are cursing our people to die in cold, and you know what, you will die from the nuclear bomb. I only hear Japan that is stealing the technology from other countries. That's why American says that Japs cannot create, rather copy and manufacture.

Are there trains being similar to shinkansen in USA?
You stray from a conversation about trains too.
Besides I think Extmn will not be Japanese.

CKATJPS

October 16th, 2004, 01:05 AM

Are there trains being similar to shinkansen in USA?
You stray from a conversation about trains too.
Besides I think Extmn will not be Japanese.

Well, I agree with you that I stray from that conversation too. I just wanted to send the message to someone who is not friendly. Yes, there are no similar trains in USA, because they don't need one. I have been living in USA for more than 12 years, where I learnd that people prefer to drive their own car to work or to travel. Back here again, countries like France, Germany, and Japan are different from USA, scarcity of land, heavy trafic in the city, etc. When I said copy, it could be anything. What I meaned is that Japan is very good at "Wrapping Up". Just go and take a look at the new model of all kinds of Japanese car, don't you think they are similar to ...? Well, there is nothing personal here, and I never thought about if Extmn is Japanese or not, and I like many things in Japan. Hope my explanation will make you understand my initial point.

Poryaa

October 17th, 2004, 11:20 PM

After such a long time TGV is suddenly growing!!:eek:

sdtj

October 18th, 2004, 05:38 AM

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/graphics/routemap.gif

http://www.juniorchamber.org/english/academy/travelinfo_files/image012.jpg

http://www.imaging.robarts.ca/~dgobbi/japan/shinkansen_station.jpg

http://tokyoyakei.cool.ne.jp/tokyo/railway/shinkansen/shinkansen-8.jpg

http://is.freefoto.com/images_d/53/04/53_04_3_web.jpg

http://www.math.jhu.edu/~wsw/TRAINS/p8040188.jpg

http://www.math.jhu.edu/~wsw/TRAINS/p8030009.jpg

http://www.math.jhu.edu/~wsw/TRAINS/Japan/images/Japan009.JPG

http://www.math.jhu.edu/~wsw/TRAINS/p7210052.jpg

http://www.math.jhu.edu/~wsw/TRAINS/Japan/images/Japan029.JPG

http://www.math.jhu.edu/~wsw/TRAINS/p6290127.jpg

http://www.pref.shizuoka.jp/kikaku/ki-20/english/pride/trans/img/p_station.jpg

http://www.railroadpix.com/images/highspeed/japan_01/100SeriesHiroshima.JPG

http://japanese.human.metro-u.ac.jp/mic-j/photos/shinkansen.jpg

http://www.nvbs.com/Verslagen/2003/Afbeeldingen/20030726_BAMV25.jpg

http://www.japaneserailwaysociety.com/jrs/month/y02/aug/e4omiya00-09.jpg

http://www.tilt-rotor.com/2002/Japan/shinkansen.JPG

http://www.clip.ubc.ca/seminars_conferences/conference_images/5th_PPCT/Rail_Star.jpg

http://www.eagano.com/SkiTrip/MAXAsahi.jpg

http://www84.sakura.ne.jp/~masayuki/travel/over_the_century/railstar02.jpg

:)

glickel

October 22nd, 2004, 06:47 PM

Does anyone have a good ICE High speed rail map? Mostly I want to know where the dedicated HSR tracks are.

glickel

October 22nd, 2004, 06:48 PM

Does anyone have a good ICE High speed rail map? Mostly I want to know where the dedicated HSR tracks are or will be.

Mike

October 23rd, 2004, 12:21 AM

High speed tracks

Finished 1991, 250km/h
Finished 1998, 250km/h
Finished 2002, 300km/h
Under construction, 300km/h

http://www.ice-fanpage.de/bilder/hgv_karte.gif

Osborne

October 25th, 2004, 05:09 AM

I've been on ICE and TGV, and found the TGV most impressive from an outright speed perspective. It was a little over two hours from Paris to Lyon. I'm from Australia, and it's a ten hour+ train trip from Sydney to Melbourne (about the same distance). And nobody travels from Syd to Melb on a train. Like Americans, Australians fly and drive everywhere. It's such a shame that Australia is so backward in its views on public transport. The topography and vast distances between major, concentrated population sources makes it ideal for high speed trains.

ICE was much more luxurious though, and had that seamless, efficient German feel - like a Mercedes. Germans are so geeky, and yet so undeniably cool.

glickel

October 25th, 2004, 05:14 PM

Thanks, Mike.

Dong Ha Lee

October 27th, 2004, 04:10 AM

Btw, this is the new Korean train:
http://ktx.korail.go.kr/DATA/ktx/ugallery/S3500143-2.jpg

Codenamed G7, it can reach up to 350 KM per hour.

m@rco

October 27th, 2004, 12:13 PM

TGV 001 (prototype gas-turbine powered train), 1972 :
http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/images/proto/tgv001rs.jpg

TGV SE, 1981, 270 km/h, 200 meters, 377 seats :
http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/images/pse/tgvtonnerre1.jpg

TGV La Poste (Postal Service), 1984, 270 km/h :
http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/images/laposte/laposte0.jpg

TGV Atlantique, 1988, 300 km/h, 238 meters, 485 seats, 25kVolts AC and 1,5kVolts DC :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/florent.brisou/TGV%20A.jpg

TGV Reseau (rebuilt from TGV SE), 1992, 300 km/h, 200 meters, 377 seats, 25kVolts AC, 1,5kVolts DC and 3kVolts DC (for Italy) :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/florent.brisou/TGV-R%20au%20pk155.jpg

AVE 1992, 300 km/h, 200 meters, 313 seats, 25kVolts AC :
http://www.railfaneurope.net/ave/ave-3.jpg

Thalys PBA, 1995, 300 km/h, 200 meters, 377 seats, 25kVolts AC, 1,5kVolts DC and 3kVolts DC :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/florent.brisou/957.jpg

Thalys PBKA 1996, 300 km/h (250 km/h in Germany), 200 meters, 377 seats, 25kVolts AC, 15kVolts AC, 1,5kVolts DC and 3kVolts DC :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/florent.brisou/TGV-PBKA%20a%20Rotterdam%20(1).jpg

Eurostar, 1993, 300 km/h, 393 meters, 674 seats, 25kVolts AC, 1,5kVolts DC, 3kVolts DC and 750Volts DC :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/florent.brisou/9092%20au%20pK%20155%20(1).jpg

TGV P01 (prototype tilting TGV rebuilt from TGV SE), 1997 :
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/electric/emu/TGV/P01/tgvp.jpg

TGV Duplex, 1996, 300 km/h, 200 meters, 545 seats, 25kVolts AC and 1,5kVolts DC :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/florent.brisou/UM%20DUPLEX%20A%20SARRY.jpg

KTX, 1998-2004, 300 km/h, 25kVolts AC:
http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/images/korea/koreatrainset.jpg

TGV POS (prototype), 2004 :
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/electric/emu/TGV/POS/SNCF_TGV_POS_Furthimwald_2.jpg

sdtj

October 27th, 2004, 11:24 PM

Dong Ha Lee

October 28th, 2004, 05:46 AM

I love the retro look on the old European trains, they are cool. Thanks for showing us.. :)

About the Korean train, are they Korean Technology? I would love to know more... They are a big surpruise... Go Korea....

Korea high-speed train aces trial run
OSONG, S.K. - Korea has become the fifth country with proven high-speed train production technology, following France, Germany, Italy and Japan, as it has succeeded in a trial of a high-speed train, according to the Chosun Ilbo.
The train was designed and made only with domestic technology, and ran at speeds of up to 300 kilometers per hour.

The Korean Rail Road Research Institute and the train maker Rotem on Wednesday completed the trial of the G7 high-speed train, called the "next generation Korean-style high-speed train." The route was from Chonan to Daejon, and onboard were industry and academic figures and public officials. The train was composed of seven cars, four locomotives and three passenger cars.

By contrast, the high-speed rail service between Seoul and Busan, which will start in April, trains produced with technology transferred from the French train maker Alstom will be used, called KTX (Korean Train Express) trains.

But for the high-speed rail services opening later, the G7 trains will be used. These G7 trains, faster than the KTX trains, should be commercialized by 2007. The G7 trains will be used for service between Seoul and Jeolla province, which is expected to have fewer passengers during weekdays because the number of cars can be variously adjusted depending on the number of passengers. The number of the KTX cars is fixed at 20, regardless of the number of passengers.

12:10 p.m. Wednesday: The high-speed train departs from Osong, North Chungcheong province. With a bright gray exterior and red top, it looks sleek.

Even at the speed of 100 kilometers per hour, there is hardly any noise or vibration. Two or three minutes later, the speed is at 150 kph, and the train glides along as if floating on placid water. At 250 kph, there is a slight movement from side to side and a faint engine noise.

Then it's 280, 290, 295, 299 kph. Fifty or so passengers - including technicians from the Korean Railroad Research Institute and Rotem and officials from the Ministry of Transportation and the Korean National Railroad - watch the odometer as it climbs to 300 kph. At that moment, Korea became the fifth country in the world to achieve the feat with its own technology, following France, Germany, Italy and Japan. Ten minutes after departing from Osong, we passed Cheoan Asan. People in the car clapped and cheered.

Song Dal-ho, chief director at the research center, said, "The designed speed is 385 kilometers per hour but the actual speed will be about 350 due to the weight of the passengers. Next year, we will easily pass our final goal of 350 kilometers per hour." The test train, composed of seven cars, is powerful and lightweight and can run up to 440 km per hour, theoretically.

A slight noise and vibration could be felt at 300 kph per hour. However, the same sensation was felt with the KTX trains, with technology transferred from Alstom. The only thing surprising was the deafening sensation in the ears, somewhat like that when climbing in an airplane. "That is because the doors are not completely sealed - this is a little difficult to do with domestic techniques," said Song Jin, director of the central research lab at Rotem. However, all these factors will be improved by 2007, when the train is expected to be commercialized. By that time, KTX will be an "old model," and a true Korean high-speed railroad will take its place as the "new model."

Thursday marks the 104th anniversary of the first Korean railroad. We have made a high-speed train with our very own hands. The conventional trains such as the Saemaeul were designed by copying bits of foreign models.

^^
Domestic technology, will reach up to 350 KM/ph

KTX is TGV tho. (Already outdated 350>300 :P)

Dong Ha Lee

October 28th, 2004, 05:54 AM

Is it just me or is the KTX an exact copy of TGV AVE which was built in 1992...

cjfjapan

October 28th, 2004, 06:07 AM

I've never ridden the European high speed trains, but considering the Shinkansen had its first derailment with the magnitude 6 earthquake last week, I'd vote Shinkansen. Japanese trains are just amazing--much better than the Spanish and English trains I rode a few years ago--after a recent trip to Osaka, Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley marveled at the profuse apologies offered when he boarded a train that arrived one minute late. Can you imagine that kind of service on ANY US system, or European for that matter? Korean trains are great too, but I think the shinkansen has to be the best in the world.

m@rco

October 28th, 2004, 11:46 AM

You're right. In France, only 92% of TGV arrive with a delay inferior to 10mn.

sdtj

October 28th, 2004, 10:24 PM

Thank you Dong Ha Lee Congratulations to Korea.....

:)

Dong Ha Lee

October 29th, 2004, 05:54 AM

You're right. In France, only 92% of TGV arrive with a delay inferior to 10mn.
I rode the KTX this summer and they continually apologized for being 2 min. late.

Btw, thanks sdtj.

kony

October 30th, 2004, 08:19 AM

WOW these "duck mouth" designed trains are ugly !!! wether it's the new spanish AVE or some of the shinkansen , i've never seen ugliest trains than those...

but the other shinkansens look great and very futuristic...and I especially love the look of the TGV trains that goes to Amsterdam (Thalys) , the burgundy color one...and the double deck blue TGVs look terrific too...I like them !

Poryaa

October 30th, 2004, 11:36 PM

Matthieu

October 30th, 2004, 11:52 PM

I can believe it's efficient, but when it comes to design, I don't like the duck like trains either.

superchan7

October 31st, 2004, 12:31 AM

Korea's HSR350X (the one codenamed G7?) also looks similar to the TGV POS prototype picture.
China has recently upgraded much of its rail network to 200 km/h, but it will be a while before 300 km/h becomes popular.

Rail Claimore

October 31st, 2004, 01:02 AM

Nothing touches Japan's Shinkansen. Period.

Dong Ha Lee

October 31st, 2004, 01:22 AM

Poryaa

October 31st, 2004, 01:32 AM

China has recently upgraded much of its rail network to 200 km/h,

Oh, show some pictures of its train!

Vertigo

October 31st, 2004, 01:31 PM

Korea's HSR350X (the one codenamed G7?) also looks similar to the TGV POS prototype picture.

wth? No it doesn't. The only similarity is that both of them are thin.

I think they are indeed quite similar. The front looks different, but the profile the cars of HSR350X are exactly the same as the TGV-POS (or any other TGV, for that matter).

kei

November 1st, 2004, 01:28 AM

Why there is no Chuo Shinkansen (serving Tokyo, Shinjuku, Machida, Hachioji, among some others, and joining the Tokaido around Odawara), I have no idea.

Hachioji --> Odawara would be quite a bit of a diversion I think, and the local lines link those stations to Tokyo quite well anyway. Already I think the recent starting of services at Shinagawa was pretty pointless. It's 15 mins on the yamanote to Tokyo!

The idea of a Haneda --> Narita link is good though, something they could really benefit from.

Personally I haven't ridden TGV or ICE, but I have had the benefit of riding shinkansen from Tokyo to Kyoto, and I have to say it was an incredible experience. Not just the speed, but the acceleration is amazing - particularly between Shinagawa and Shin Yokohama where it switches between high and low speed a number of times. It feels like it's entering some kind of special 'mode' when it goes fast. Really cool!

TRZ

November 1st, 2004, 07:26 AM

Hachioji --> Odawara would be quite a bit of a diversion I think, and the local lines link those stations to Tokyo quite well anyway. Already I think the recent starting of services at Shinagawa was pretty pointless. It's 15 mins on the yamanote to Tokyo!

Yeah, I didn't realize at the time, but that doesn't work. I look at too many maps that are schematic rather than scale -.-. Not sure about exactly where it would run, but the concept of a Chuo Shinkansen has been given consideration anyway. While the lines that link those stations to Tokyo are efficient, that isn't the issue, the issue is they are packed... really badly. The Chuo Line especially needs a relief line. Shinjuku Station should be entitled to Shinkansen service at any rate. Not only is it the busiest station on earth, the space for a Shinkansen station is already reserved beneath Shinjuku.

I agree, Shinagawa is pretty pointless. The Narita Express also stops there for unknown reasons. Shinagawa and Tokyo Stations provide the same connections to other JR Lines as well with the exception of Keiyo (and Musashino) which are only at Tokyo Station. The only thing that stops at Shinagawa is Keikyu. Yet Shibuya (which has far more connections to other lines, Keio, Tokyu, Tokyo Metro, JR Saikyo-Rinkai and Yokosuka Lines) doesn't get as much serivce as Shinagawa?! WTF?!

PEK

November 1st, 2004, 11:56 PM

Screw all three, maglev is the best!. i know is costly, unrelieable, whatever, but imagine, if the beijing-shanghai maglev is built, it will take only 2 hours from beijing to shanghai, 2 HOURS!. currently the fastest non-stop conventional train serving beijing-shanghai takes 7 hours.

Vertigo

November 2nd, 2004, 12:04 AM

Shainghai - Beijing is more than a 1000 km, right? That would mean an average speed of more than 500 km/h. While technically a maglev would be able to do that, it will never happen. Much too expensive. Air resistance increases very fast at high speeds.

BTW, regular high speed trains would technically also be able to run at such speeds. The reason that it never happened is the same - economics.

sdtj

November 2nd, 2004, 12:10 AM

http://img35.exs.cx/img35/8366/BULLET.jpg

http://img35.exs.cx/img35/4192/BULLET2.jpg

http://img35.exs.cx/img35/525/BULLET3.jpg

CborG

November 2nd, 2004, 12:41 AM

what happemed to the Thalys? or is it just an converted TGV?

http://home.hetnet.nl/~pschokk/tgv/thalys/4534ZevenbergschenHoek.jpg
http://lister373.tripod.com/Thalys.jpg

http://www.modelbaneeuropa.hadsten.dk/gfx/thalys.gif

Poryaa

November 2nd, 2004, 05:02 AM

Shainghai - Beijing is more than a 1000 km, right? That would mean an average speed of more than 500 km/h. While technically a maglev would be able to do that, it will never happen. Much too expensive. Air resistance increases very fast at high speeds.

BTW, regular high speed trains would technically also be able to run at such speeds. The reason that it never happened is the same - economics.

It has about ensured Shinkansen of Max speed 200km/h will run on the Shainghai-Beijing rapid line.

tayser

December 4th, 2004, 11:12 AM

Thalys is a continental service (Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam and Cologne as per that map above) and Eurostar is a Channel service (London, Paris and Brussels) both stock are built on SNCF technology: TGV (so is Acela in the US and nearly every single train in this thread except Shinkansen and ICE (ICE might be related?)) Eurostar uses the UK's Tunnel rail link (300kph), the tunnel and LGV Nord into Paris and Brussels, Thalys uses LGV Nord for 300kph running afaik, the rest it uses normal 100-160kph track otherwise (so it's essentially a mixed speed journey)

I've recently just bought a DVD of which I'm still waiting to arrive of the Eurostar from a driver's eye perspective from Gare du Nord to Waterloo & one of the ECML from King's Cross to Waverley, can't frikking wait :P

postmodern

December 4th, 2004, 01:20 PM

Tilting trains have always been under development in China, however, no type is mass-commercialized:
China Star:
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic177.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic173.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic184.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic179.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic180.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic178.jpg
Pioneer:
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic075.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic092.jpg
Central Champaign Star:
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic247.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic090.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic074.jpg
Shenzhou(Divine Land), not too unheard to you:
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic006.jpg
Blue Arrow(from Bombardier I believe):
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic007.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic091.jpg
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic007-1.jpg
Spring City:
http://www.hasea.com/pic/china/pic001.jpg

All old designs :sleepy:

Vertigo

December 4th, 2004, 01:45 PM

Well, I like those Chinese designs... they often look a bit like European trains though.

When I was in Beijing I saw a streamlined modern trainset... it looked like a high speed train. Special thing about it was that is was a diesel powered train. I think it was that Shenzhou train... is that right? On which line(s) does it run?

eomer

December 6th, 2004, 12:39 PM

TGV in Morroco ?

Morroco plans to built an HSR between Casablanca, Marakesh and Agadir. The new line should open in 2015. Two other lines could follow: Casablanca-Tanger and Casablanca-Oudja.

Washingtonian

December 12th, 2004, 05:24 AM

I must disagree about the looks. Japan's trains look just too, out there. The European trains look very modern, sleek and elegant.

Poryaa

December 14th, 2004, 07:57 PM

Tilting trains have always been under development in China, however, no type is mass-commercialized:
China Star:

China Star which the front car isn't a passenger cabin is similar to French TGV.

Frungy

December 16th, 2004, 01:45 PM

I'm curious- what's the busiest TGV and ICE line, and how many trains run per hour? The Tokaido Shinkansen has 7 Nozomi (superexpress) and 4 Kodama/Hikari (local/express) every hour, each with 16 cars per train. Are European high speed trains all local trains (stop at every station?)

TGV and Shinkansen seem most reliable and safe... the German ICE had that nasty accident in 1998. The Shinkansen had a death when a student missed his train, but managed to get his finger stuck in the train door. This was too thin to trigger the alarm, so he got dragged to death.

Now they're extending the Shinkansen up north to Aomori. A huge waste of money, since it simply cannot compete with airlines and nobody lives up there.

DiggerD21

December 16th, 2004, 03:05 PM

Are European high speed trains all local trains (stop at every station?)

Generally they don't stop at every station. They are expresstrains. If they would stop at every station, they would never reach their max speed.

earthJoker

December 16th, 2004, 04:04 PM

High speed tracks

Finished 1991, 250km/h
Finished 1998, 250km/h
Finished 2002, 300km/h
Under construction, 300km/h

why you don't Berlin-Hamburg with 230km/h in there?

babystan03

December 16th, 2004, 05:21 PM

16 December 2004

South Korea-designed bullet train breaks 350-km per hour barrier

SEOUL : A South Korea-designed bullet train broke the 350 kilometer (218.8 miles)-per-hour barrier in a test run, putting the country at the forefront of high-speed railway technology, officials said.

The train, based on French technology and jointly developed by South Korea's Rotem Co. and Hyundai Heavy Industries Co., recorded a speed of 352.4 kilometers per hour, the Ministry of Construction and Transportation said.

Only three other countries, France, Germany and Japan, have built trains that can travel at 350 kilometers per hour or faster.

South Korea spent some 200 million dollars and eight years of efforts to develop the country's first high-speed train which went into commercial service in April.

The project was a result of an accord signed in 1994 between South Korea and Alstom, which defeated Siemens of Germany and Mitsubishi of Japan to win the contract.

With technology transfer from the French energy and transport group, state-owned Korean National Railroad (KNR) has successfully developed its own model, the G7, which KNR hopes to export in 2007. - AFP

Copyright © 2004 Agence France Presse. All rights reserved.

Vapour

December 18th, 2004, 04:41 PM

Now they're extending the Shinkansen up north to Aomori. A huge waste of money, since it simply cannot compete with airlines and nobody lives up there.

What about the 1,5 million people living in Aomori prefecture? What about medium distance connections like Aomori-Hachinohe-Morioka or Aomori-Hakodate in the future?

gottagoback

December 19th, 2004, 01:01 PM

1.5 million is not a lot compared to most parts of Kyushu, but maybe the government hopes that if Aomori has good infrastructure, people will move up there. Back in the Meiji era, the government had a policy of attracting people to Hokkaido. They built a whole city for them (Sapporo). Also, there's a tunnel already built that is designed for Shinkansen, connecting Aomori to Hokkaido, so the Shinkansen will surely go up to Sapporo some time in the future.

Frungy

December 20th, 2004, 01:55 PM

gottagoback

December 20th, 2004, 03:55 PM

The moneymaker for the Shinkansen (and most transportation companies) is business workers. People may live in Aomori, but they sure as heck won't take a 4 hour train ride to Tokyo, they'll take a 1 hour flight to Haneda instead. Even the Akita Shinkansen is splitting their mode share with airlines. And I seriously doubt there's much rail traffic from Aomori to Hachinohe, or Morioka. The current limited express service is good enough, and even those trains are quite empty. The farther away you get from Tokyo, the emptier the trains become.

As for Sapporo, it is a very large city, but the train ride to Tokyo would be prohibitively long- around 7 hours, I would imagine. It's the same reason nobody uses intercity rail to any large extent outside of the Northeast corridor (Washington DC-Boston) in the US- the distance is too far.

Why are you thinking only in terms of train rides to Tokyo? I'm sure that's not how Japan's transport planners are thinking. Do you not suppose that a business traveller in Sapporo would welcome the opportunity to get to Morioka or Sendai or Niigata more quickly than before? If communication is quicker and easier within the northern part of Japan (quite apart from communication between Tokyo and the northern part of Japan), then it becomes possible for development around the country to be more even, rather than all concentrated in that narrow area between Kanto and Kinki. The same principle applies to extending Shinkansen into Kyushu. If people in Kumamoto or Kagoshima can more easily communicate with people in Kobe or Hiroshima, it could make it easer for the southern part of the country to develop, instead of losing population to the Kanto region.

(Incidentally, in the earlier post I typed "Kyushu" when I meant "Honshu". Sorry about that, silly mistake.)

Poryaa

December 21st, 2004, 09:58 AM

Frungy

December 21st, 2004, 01:44 PM

Are you forgetting that Sapporo is-
1200 km from Tokyo
840 km from Sendai
660 km from Morioka
560 km from Hachinohe, the nearest Shinkansen station
300 km from Hakodate, the nearest major city?

The Hayate train currently takes 3 hours from Tokyo to Hachinohe, stopping only at Omiya, Sendai, and Morioka (630 km). I guess my estimate of 7 hours should be downgraded to 5 hours.

A flight from Tokyo-Haneda to Sapporo-Chitose takes 1.5 hours and costs 45,000 yen roundtrip.
A train from Tokyo to Hachinohe takes 3 hours and costs 30,000 yen roundtrip.
Extrapolating by distance, a train from Tokyo to Sapporo would take 5 hours and cost 45,000 yen roundtrip, as much as a flight.

There's just no competition between Sapporo and Tokyo. Business travelers don't want to spend 1/2 of their day traveling, they want to take a morning flight to Sapporo, and come back in the evening.

Sapporo to Sendai/Morioka may become more attractive, but it's still too long for the business traveler market. Sapporo to Niigata would require a transfer at Tokyo, which is out of the question.

And Japan's transport planners aren't thinking. That's why there's 2 absolutely beautiful but nearly useless bridges linking Honshu with Shikoku, among other monstrous civil works projects that nobody uses.

Poryaa

December 21st, 2004, 05:31 PM

Currently the Hayate runs at 275km/h max, but when its track extends to Sapporo it's planning to run at 350km/h max.
Are you thinking about that? And planning to link Tokyo with Sapporo in 4 hours. This is mentioned in the Hokkaido shinkansen's site.
By the way, personally I dont like much going in a plane because of annoying security check and the airport being distant from the urban area.

Nephasto

December 22nd, 2004, 12:59 AM

Are you thinking about that? And planning to link Tokyo with Sapporo in 4 hours. This is mentioned in the Hokkaido shinkansen's site.
.

An average speed of 300 km/h?! :rofl:

Really, you must remember that it will use lines already build for most of the traject.
I would say that realistically talking, Sapporo - Tokyo, by Shinkansen will take about... 5 hours and 15 minutes. Never less...

Mike

December 22nd, 2004, 04:25 AM

Shainghai - Beijing is more than a 1000 km, right? That would mean an average speed of more than 500 km/h. While technically a maglev would be able to do that, it will never happen. Much too expensive. Air resistance increases very fast at high speeds.

I doubt that air resistance is the major factor here after all planes fly at even higher speeds, although technically they could also cruise along at 200km/h if it were so economically. I think the problem is rather inertia which is getting a bigger and bigger factor forcing the tracks to be straighter and straighter and at the same time beeing on the ground begins to evolve into a serious risk as there are naturally more potential objects to collide with on the ground than are in the air.

gottagoback

December 22nd, 2004, 06:21 AM

Drag is certainly an issue, but it looks as if it's not quite the absolute barrier that some previously thought. The HSST maglev Shinkansen trains have extraordinarily long noses -- even by Shinkansen standards -- in order to reduce drag. A solution that has been proposed has been to put the train in a tunnel, and suck as much air out of the tunnel as possible. In a semi-vacuum, a maglev train could hope to travel at two or three times the speed of sound.

612bv3

December 22nd, 2004, 07:08 AM

Has anyone here head anything about California's plan for a HSR? If so, do you think it will happen?

California high-speed bond measure postponed for two years
On June 25, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed the Safe, Reliable High-Speed Passenger Train Bond Act for the 21st Century, which postpones for two years the placement of a high-speed rail bond on a statewide ballot.

Originally scheduled to be placed on the November 2004 ballot, the bond measure would provide $9.95 billion in state general obligation bonds to build an intercity high-speed statewide passenger rail system.

California High Speed Rail Authority officials believe the funding delay will not impact planning for the 700-mile system. The authority currently is accepting public comments on its Draft Program Environmental Impact Statement/Environmental Impact Report. Final reports are scheduled to be complete by year end.

If the measure is approved in November 2006, construction bonds could be issued by 2008. However, the authority will have to present a business and finance plan that supports the viability of the project before it can be placed on the ballot, said Schwarzenegger.

Expected to carry 68 million passengers by 2020, the high-speed system initially will link San Francisco, Fresno and Los Angeles, with future extensions to Sacramento and San Diego. Trains will operate at speeds up to 220 mph and enable passengers to travel between downtown San Francisco and Los Angeles in two-and-a-half hours.

Frungy

December 22nd, 2004, 08:06 AM

It's pretty sad that there isn't even a slow speed train from San Francisco to Los Angeles now... you have to transfer to a bus at Bakersfield.

I'll believe a Tokyo to Sapporo line in 4 hours when I see it. To me it sounds like another case of wishful transport thinking. I mean, it takes 4.5 for Tokyo-Akita now (granted, some of it is on shared local track).

Poryaa

December 22nd, 2004, 08:11 AM

An average speed of 300 km/h?! :rofl:

Really, you must remember that it will use lines already build for most of the traject.
I would say that realistically talking, Sapporo - Tokyo, by Shinkansen will take about... 5 hours and 15 minutes. Never less...
Because even the most rapid train which links Tokyo with Sapporo in 4 hours will stop at Sendai and Shin-aomori Sta. Besides Tokyo - Omiya is the section of speed limit 100 because of densely residential areas.

Frungy

December 22nd, 2004, 09:22 AM

He's laughing not because it's a slow average speed, but because it's a high average speed.

At least I think that's the reason...

Poryaa

December 22nd, 2004, 10:44 AM

I see. The reason I could say that is... even if using the track now in use its train will run at its speed because its train is improved.

Nephasto

December 22nd, 2004, 10:37 PM

He's laughing not because it's a slow average speed, but because it's a high average speed.

At least I think that's the reason...

Obviously, you're correct!
I was laughing because 300 km/h average is just impossible for a shinkansen train regular service. Yes, it's to fast to be possible!

would say that realistically talking, Sapporo - Tokyo, by Shinkansen will take about... 5 hours and 15 minutes. Never less...

That would be an average speed around 230 km/h, and that's because the line will use existing lines in most of the traject.
If it was all new lines, it could do a faster average speed, although not around 300 km/h.

Pooooop

December 23rd, 2004, 01:51 AM

First, the Shinkansen tracks in Hakodate have already been completed and are only waiting for the services to come in operation. To make things clear, the new generation Shinkansen WILL run at 350km/h.

Tokyo - Hachinohe (Aomori pref)

643.2km, 2h 21mins

Tokyo - Aomori (Aomori pref)

739.2km, 2h 38mins

Tokyo - Hakodate (Hokkaido)

864.3km, 3h 12mins

Tokyo - Sapporo (Hokkaido)

1,074.3km, 3h 57mins

The Shinkansen line in north will eventually reach as far as to Asahikawa (Hokkaido) in the future. The airlines in north often are problem because of the whether conditions. When snows heavily, they have to be cancelled. However the Shinkansens will bring the solution to this problem. The Shinkansens are safe (ZERO accidents have occured since the first Shinkansen service from 1964), punctual and reliable. It will be an excellent business solution in north Japan. 53 billion dollers (US) were spent for the Seikan Tunnel (Aomori - Hakodate) 2 decades ago and this was meant to serve for the Shinkansens along with the other ordinary intercity and express railway lines. The Shinkansen network in north was set to be the top priority of Japan's Shinkansen project since 1989 but hasn't yet been completed so far. ALL Japanese hope this to be done as soon as possible.

Someone mentioned that the Shinkansen network in north are the waste of money just like the useless bridges in some parts of Japan. This must be seperated from the Shinkansens. It's a completely different matter. In 1969, the government declared that the Shinkansen network from Fukuoka in south to Sapporo in north is the priority of the project. If the completion of the project will be late, it will cost more, as much as the project is deferred. This is why it is important to complete the project AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE. The budget allocated for the Shinkansen netowork is only 0.8% out of the entire redevelopment projects of the infrastructure in north.

Another reason why the Shinkansens are favorable over the other means of the public transport is that they can achieve more efficient use of energy and are eco-friendly - emitting less carbon dioxide. The airplanes emit carbon dioxide 5 times more than the Shinkansens.

Finally, the competition with the airlines are good for the economy. That's nothing negative about it. Tokyo's Haneda airport is suffering from the overcapacity serving to some international lines and an enormous volume of the domestic lines. When Akita Shinkansen "Komachi" opened for example, the visitors from outside the prefecture increased by 12.5%. And the visitors using the buses and airlines from Tokyo to Akita increased by 9.5%. Assuming the Shinkansens are not profitable for north because of its less inhabitants is simply misleading. The passengers of Shinkansen in north is the 2nd largest in Japan after Tokaido (Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka) and larger than Sanyo Shinkansen (from Osaka to all over west Japan up to Fukuoka in south). While Aomori has 1.5 million people, Hokkaido has 5.6 million people. Hokkaido's economic output is of high standard and is the 5th largest in Japan, which is equivalent to the entire Denmark, for example. Sapporo also has one of 5 stock exchanges in Japan. Thus if the Shinkansens can reach to Fukuoka in south, it's completely legitimate reaching to north, up to Hokkaido.

The completion of the network to Aomori is expected by 2008 and Sapporo by 2010.

A poster campaigning for the Shinkansen in north up to Hokkaido:
http://www.pref.aomori.jp/newline/shinkan/poster.jpg
http://www.pref.aomori.jp/newline/shinkan/sandou/images/page7-p2.gif

AdelaideSkytraveller

December 23rd, 2004, 02:12 AM

I doubt that air resistance is the major factor here after all planes fly at even higher speeds, although technically they could also cruise along at 200km/h if it were so economically. I think the problem is rather inertia which is getting a bigger and bigger factor forcing the tracks to be straighter and straighter and at the same time beeing on the ground begins to evolve into a serious risk as there are naturally more potential objects to collide with on the ground than are in the air.

It can be overcome by building the MAGLEV in a tube that is then
vacuum seeled to allow for even faster speeds. Remember reading about
it in some Swiss Train Network thing about proposed underground Swiss Maglev.

AdelaideSkytraveller

December 23rd, 2004, 02:15 AM

Here is the site read for yourselves....

http://www.swissmetro.com/en/00_Home/index_E.htm

Pooooop

December 23rd, 2004, 02:46 AM

It can be overcome by building the MAGLEV in a tube that is then
vacuum seeled to allow for even faster speeds. Remember reading about
it in some Swiss Train Network thing about proposed underground Swiss Maglev.
Japan's maglev subway will be in operation from March 6th, 2005 in Nagoya.

http://hsst.jp/images/linimo.jpg
http://www.pref.aichi.jp/kensetsu-somu/owari-ken-toubukyuryo/top/img/topics/linimo_photo7.jpg

Pooooop

December 23rd, 2004, 04:15 AM

sdtj

December 23rd, 2004, 04:25 AM

Japan's latest maglev Shinkansen type MLX01-901 experimentally operated in Yamanashi is the fastest train in the world, which has recorded 581km/h. It's weired, no-one has ever mentioned about this.

http://www.pref.yamanashi.jp/linear/images/jikkensen/ph360.jpg
http://www.pref.yamanashi.jp/linear/images/kids/shikumi/shikumi41.jpg

Well I guess most of us who love high speed trains know about this, but here we are talking of trains currently in service... ;)

I'm amazed of the speed of Japanese maglevs, they are the future of high speed rail.

:)

Avatar

December 23rd, 2004, 04:43 AM

Pooooop

December 23rd, 2004, 05:28 AM

I have always liked the MLX-001 better, its far more attractive... I have made numerous posts on it in the past, including this post of one in Sydney...

http://home.iprimus.com.au/allicit/Images/Maglev.03.jpg
http://www.chinautc.com/hot/maglev/images/mlx01.jpg
http://home.t-online.de/home/jok.geo/fremdfoto-jr-central-maglev-yamanashi-02.jpg
That one is the previous model. One is called Aero Wedge and another one is Double Cusp. The new model MLX01-901 is an improved version of those. The newer design has to be like this, to reduce the air frictions even better.

By the way this was the original maglev, ML-100 from 1972.
http://www.pref.yamanashi.jp/linear/images/jikkensen/ph310.jpg

And the following ML-500 achieves the world record of 517km/h in Miyazaki maglev experimental center in 1979.
http://www.pref.yamanashi.jp/linear/images/jikkensen/ph320.jpg

Frungy

December 23rd, 2004, 09:41 AM

I don't doubt that the new Shinkansen will reach MAXIMUM speeds of 350 km/h. They just won't have an average speed of anything near that. The Hayate takes 3 hours to go 631 km- that's an average speed of 210 km/h. I don't see that number jumping to 300 anytime soon.

When you say the Shinkansen tracks are completed already in Hakodate, do you mean just at the station, or from Hakodate all the way to Hachinohe? Last I checked, there's no construction going on in Hokkaido now.

And there have been accidents on the Shinkansen, just none that have caused injuries. There was one death when a student got his hand trapped in the door and got dragged along the platform. Concrete blocks from the roofing of the tunnels have fallen on trains. And there was the derailment from the Chuetsu earthquake, admittedly not really JR's fault.

The Seikan tunnel was built because of the dangerous crossing through the Tsugaru strait. The Toya-maru was a ferry that sank in a typhoon, killing over 1000 passengers.

The Japan of 1969 and the Japan of today are completely different. The railways have been privatized, growth has slowed tremendously, and the population is stagnating. The government always overestimates demand for new infrastructure projects- it's the only way they can get built. JR doesn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole. Competition may be good for the economy and have great social benefits, but it will ruin the company that has to run the railway.

When you say the passengers of Shinkansen in the north, do you mean to include the entire Nagano, Joetsu, Tohoku, Yamagata, and Akita Shinkansen lines? I would imagine the total volume would be very high- that's a lot of trackage! That has nothing to do with profitability though. You can't just have a lot of people, you need density as well. And Aomori and Hokkaido are the least dense areas of Japan.

Sorry to hijack the thread like this, I guess it has little to do with the original discussion...

odegaard

December 23rd, 2004, 09:48 AM

I doubt that air resistance is the major factor here after all planes fly at even higher speeds, That may be true but airplanes fly at high altitudes where the air is less dense so that minimizes the air resistance, compared to a train which must run at ground level. However, trains are very aerodynamic due to their shape and have a smaller cross section area compared to planes so maybe air resistance is not the biggest factor? Who knows?

I think the problem is rather inertia which is getting a bigger and bigger factor forcing the tracks to be straighter and straighter...I think you hit the pig on the snout with that comment. The tracks on a HSR train whether conventional or maglev must be very precise. The faster the train the more precise and the tighter the tolerances are for errors in the alignment of the track. I think a good example would be to imagine driving a car slowly thru a residential neighborhood and hitting a 2 inch deep pot hole. You'll get a good bump. The same pot hole on a freeway will guarantee a visit to an auto shop for another wheel alignment. And finally the same pot hole on a nascar track would bend your axle and make your car spin out of control. :)

So imagine hypothetically a maglev train going as fast as an airplane. The track would have to be so precisely aligned that even a miss-alignment of half a millimeter would probably be unacceptable. Is it possible to enure this economically? IMHO this is the greatest challenge to creating a train to go as fast as an airplane.

Pooooop

December 23rd, 2004, 11:09 AM

Pooooop

December 23rd, 2004, 12:14 PM

This is how New Hakodate Shinkansen station and its surroundings would look like:

http://www.town.ono.hokkaido.jp/hiroba/sinkansen.def/shinkansen/gif/big/00.jpg

Frungy

December 23rd, 2004, 01:40 PM

I'm not trying to spoil anything, I'm just trying to set the record straight. Yes, the Seikan Tunnel was built to accomodate a Shinkansen extension. I never said it didn't. But its primary purpose was to build a rail link to eliminate the water crossing.

>>Also I meant "north" for the Tohoku Shinkansen (up to Hachinohe) only. It does surpass the number of passengers for the Sanyo Shinkansen.

I'll remain skeptical of this until I can find my Japanese Railway handbook.

>>I can't see your argument points at all. Kyushu Shinkansen is almost complete then why not Aomori and Hokkaido to be included? It isn't the numbers of population only determine the importance of the Shinkansen networks.

Because of population density, like I said earlier. Fukuoka to Kagoshima is 300 kilometers, with Nagasaki and Kumamoto as major population centers in between. Aomori to Sapporo is 600 kilometers, with Hakodate as the only city in between. There's also a lot of demand to go from other parts of Kyushu to Fukuoka/Kitakyushu. How much demand is there to go from Sapporo to Aomori? There are currently 0 through trains and 3 daily flights.

As for the airport, Shin-Chitose in Sapporo is one of the most advanced for snow removal. It'll take a huge blizzard to shut that place down, and if that's the case, the trains will stop too. My friend in Sapporo told me the trains are delayed more than the planes are from snow anyway.

Pooooop

December 23rd, 2004, 06:14 PM

@frungy

"Also I meant "north" for the Tohoku Shinkansen (up to Hachinohe) only. It does surpass the number of passengers for the Sanyo Shinkansen.

I'll remain skeptical of this until I can find my Japanese Railway handbook."

Here's the link to Aomori's government that will give you the answer: http://www.pref.aomori.jp/newline/shinkan/sandou/page2.html

"Because of population density, like I said earlier. Fukuoka to Kagoshima is 300 kilometers, with Nagasaki and Kumamoto as major population centers in between. Aomori to Sapporo is 600 kilometers, with Hakodate as the only city in between. There's also a lot of demand to go from other parts of Kyushu to Fukuoka/Kitakyushu. How much demand is there to go from Sapporo to Aomori? There are currently 0 through trains and 3 daily flights"

It doesn't really matter as long as the major cities are connected. Above north of Tokyo, Sapporo is the largest and most productive city via Sendai in between. The economic factor is also very important here. And the main purpose of Hokkaido and Tohoku Shinkansens is NOT connecting Aomori and Sapporo but connecting to the major cities in Honshu. After all, Sapporo Chitose - Tokyo Haneda is the busiest air route in the world. Can't you see the obvious reason why the air traffics are that congested?

"As for the airport, Shin-Chitose in Sapporo is one of the most advanced for snow removal. It'll take a huge blizzard to shut that place down, and if that's the case, the trains will stop too. My friend in Sapporo told me the trains are delayed more than the planes are from snow anyway."

Perhaps that's only the case of your friend. Hokkaido has the anti-fog system such as Category III in eastern airports but never heard of that one you've mentioned. What people joke badly on Chitose is that even if it's a 24 hours open airport but in reality it isn't because has to be shut down often by heavy snow falls.

Poryaa

December 23rd, 2004, 06:45 PM

The Shinkansen line in north will eventually reach as far as to Asahikawa (Hokkaido) in the future. The airlines in north often are problem because of the whether conditions. When snows heavily, they have to be cancelled. However the Shinkansens will bring the solution to this problem. The Shinkansens are safe (ZERO accidents have occured since the first Shinkansen service from 1964), punctual and reliable. It will be an excellent business solution in north Japan. 53 billion dollers (US) were spent for the Seikan Tunnel (Aomori - Hakodate) 2 decades ago and this was meant to serve for the Shinkansens along with the other ordinary intercity and express railway lines. The Shinkansen network in north was set to be the top priority of Japan's Shinkansen project since 1989 but hasn't yet been completed so far. ALL Japanese hope this to be done as soon as possible.

It's funny to say all Japanese hope that. At least in Tokyo no one hopes its project excluding people being up in Tokyo and rail buffs.
Currently in Japan people who hope the extension of Shinkansen line are only country bumpkins, politicians from the countryside and rail buffs.
By the way, personally I want to get on the new Shinkansen to run at 350km/h max only once.

Pooooop

December 23rd, 2004, 07:39 PM

It's funny to say all Japanese hope that. At least in Tokyo no one hopes its project excluding people being up in Tokyo and rail buffs.
Currently in Japan people which hope the extension of Shinkansen line are only country bumpkins, politicians from the countryside and rail buffs.
By the way, personally I want to get on the new Shinkansen to run at 350km/h max only once.
I think a rail buff is a hundred times better than the anime nerds wanking on 2D girls (moreover pedophile it seems, yuck). I'm proud of being a rail freak. Don't hurt my pride. And please sleep with the real women. Please.

Poryaa

December 23rd, 2004, 11:05 PM

Obviously, you're correct!
I was laughing because 300 km/h average is just impossible for a shinkansen train regular service. Yes, it's to fast to be possible!

The words left for you are only this, "Stop playing a joke on me!"

Pooooop

December 24th, 2004, 05:03 PM

Besides, I think another reason why the Shinkansen hasn't yet reached up to Hokkaido is also because of the physical distance. An avanced train technology means however shortening this distance and the trains can go even further to the territories used to be considered being unpractical. Not only the speed but also an overall improved performance is expected for the new trains. For instance the new Shinkansens have tilting systems that minimize the reduced speeds on curves. Theoretically Tokyo - Sapporo (1,074km) in 4 hours is possible.

That would be an average speed around 230 km/h, and that's because the line will use existing lines in most of the traject
The reason why the existing lines keep the average speeds that low is because they mostly run through the densely populated and mountaneous areas with many curves. But it's different up in north Japan. Hokkaido's population density (5.6 million people in 78,000km2) is even many times lower than in Tohoku area (Aomori, Sendai, Niigata, Yamagata, Akita, etc.). Aomori - Sapporo's 300km distance is thus really nothing. If the trains can run at 350km/h in maximum, they will be able to run around 300km/h in average for the reasons above.

Nephasto

December 24th, 2004, 08:42 PM

Vapour

December 24th, 2004, 09:34 PM

The fastest service makes Tokyo - Morioka (535,3 km) in 2h 26' according to the JR timetable I got 4 years ago.

Pooooop

December 24th, 2004, 11:43 PM

The fastest service makes Tokyo - Morioka (535,3 km) in 2h 26' according to the JR timetable I got 4 years ago.
That makes sense. Even the current 300km/h class caliber will take you down to Sapporo in 4h 30mins.

Nephasto

December 25th, 2004, 04:53 AM

The fastest service makes Tokyo - Morioka (535,3 km) in 2h 26' according to the JR timetable I got 4 years ago.

That's a ~220 km/h average.

Now, what's the distance from Tokyo to Sapporo? About 1200 km as Frungy said before, or 1074 km as someone already said to?
Because my 5h 15' calculation was based on 1200 km. (~228 km/h average)

That makes sense. Even the current 300km/h class caliber will take you down to Sapporo in 4h 30mins.

Let's see: 4h30mins = 4,5h
4,5 * 220 = 990 km.... How would that make Tokyo - Sapporo?!

1074 / 4,5 = ~239 km/h --> This is considering the 1074 km distance... and we have to admit that an average of 239 km/h is WAY different to a 220 kmh average, so the current 300 km/h class caliber wouldn't take you down to sapporo in 4h 30 min if there were lines.

Metropolitan

December 25th, 2004, 05:24 AM

According to the SNCF website (http://www.sncf.com/), the exact time needed to go from Paris Gare de Lyon to Marseille St Charles is 3 hours.

That makes an average speed of 260 km/h. However, they are saying on this website (http://www.train-rail.com/voyages/dos15/) that the rail line between Paris - Gare de Lyon and Marseille - St Charles is exactly 863 km long.

If what that website says is true, then it means that the average speed of the TGV from Paris to Marseille is 288 km/h !!!

Pooooop

December 25th, 2004, 07:16 AM

That's a ~220 km/h average.

Now, what's the distance from Tokyo to Sapporo? About 1200 km as Frungy said before, or 1074 km as someone already said to?
Because my 5h 15' calculation was based on 1200 km. (~228 km/h average)

Let's see: 4h30mins = 4,5h
4,5 * 220 = 990 km.... How would that make Tokyo - Sapporo?!

1074 / 4,5 = ~239 km/h --> This is considering the 1074 km distance... and we have to admit that an average of 239 km/h is WAY different to a 220 kmh average, so the current 300 km/h class caliber wouldn't take you down to sapporo in 4h 30 min if there were lines.
What's your calculation supposed to be? 220km/h * 4 = 880km. Even if the trains run at this average central to south west Japan standard and of the current technology, it will still get you to Sapporo in less than 5hrs. And this will never happen for the reasons I explained earlier. When the trains run at the maximum speed of 300km/h using the current standard, it will look something like this:

Tokyo - Hachinohe (Aomori pref.)

643.2km, 2h 56 mins

Tokyo - Aomori (Aomori pref.)

739.2km, 3h 14mins

Tokyo - Hakodate (Hokkaido)

864.3km, 3h 35mins

Tokyo - Sapporo (Hokkaido)

1074.3km, 4h 23mins

I also frankly want to add another fact. The new Shinkansen's maximum speed is 400km/h and the operation speed is up to 360km/h.

Frungy

December 25th, 2004, 07:21 AM

Pooooop

December 25th, 2004, 09:18 AM

I guess it depends on where the track of the Shinkansen will go. The current local track would make it 1200 km, with a straighter Shinkansen line that bypasses Hakodate and Aomori, I guess it would be 1074 km.

And remember, while airline check-in is annoying, look at the competition between Boston-New York-Washington. The Acela isn't making much of a dent in the air shuttle service, and it's a much shorter distance than Tokyo-Sapporo. Granted, the Acela isn't really a high-speed rail.
Well most people normally riding onto planes or driving cars in the US. The Acela can't put the pressure on airlines. Moreover, Boston-Washington's tracks aren't fully the highspeed rail standard tracks. The Seikan tunnel is meeting the Shinkansen infrastructure. All we have to do is constructing the Shinkansen track between Aomori and Sapporo, which is 300km. So it can't be 1,200km from Tokyo using the current track. As I said earlier, this is nothing compared to the other outgoing budget for infrastructures and a positive economic impact can be expected in the future.

Also, considering you'd have to travel down to the local airports, let's say Tokyo's Haneda airport, the check-in takes 2hrs, the flight takes another 1h 30mins, you'll have to wait for sometime for the trains in Chitose and the trains from Chitose will take 30mins to get to the central Sapporo, certainly you'd choose the Shinkansen as a matter of common sense.

Pooooop

December 25th, 2004, 11:15 PM

December 25th, 2004, 11:37 PM

I also frankly want to add another fact. The new Shinkansen's maximum speed is 400km/h and the operation speed is up to 360km/h.

Which model is this, and which line?

coth

December 26th, 2004, 12:43 AM

About Russian ICE. Russian Railways bought ICE technology and will optimize it together with Siemens.
http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&msg_id=5237575&startrow=1&date=2004-12-21&do_alert=0

SCHLESWIG, December 21 (RIA Novosti) - Russian Railways and Germany's Siemens major signed a contract today for Russian high-speed passenger trains. A maiden sample is to be ready by the end of 2007, Gennady Fadeyev, Russian Railways president, said to the media.

Russian trains will be exact replicas of the one President Vladimir Putin took this morning to go to Schleswig from Hamburg, he added.

First ten trains will link Moscow and St. Petersburg, with a speed up to 350 km/hr. The next batch, for the Moscow-Helsinki route, will be slower, 250 to 300 kilometers an hour. Speed lines will connect Russian megalopolises-Moscow, Nizhny Novgorod, Rostov-on-Don, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Yekaterinburg and certain others, thus to stretch throughout the vast country. There are prospects for a Moscow-Kiev route.

When asked why the Russian Railways has chosen Siemens for partner, Mr. Fadeyev explained it was the only of the world's three largest companies to accept Russia's contract terms. Russia will fully receive technologies, and a complete set of related documents. Production will base in Russia, as well. Thus, the initial sample will come from the Moscow Locomotive Works.

"Will Russian railways cope with the trains?" a reporter asked Igor Levitin, Russia's Transport Minister. "No problem," he replied. "Moscow-St. Petersburg trains are making 200 kilometers an hour even now."

The Russian, German, Lithuanian and Polish Transport Ministers will gather for conference in Kaliningrad in February, Mr. Levitin went on. The ministers will discuss how to settle freight transport from the Baltic exclave to the Russian mainland and back-a major issue now that the Kaliningrad Region is within the Schengen zone after a recent European Union enlargement.

As he came back to the latest Russian-German understandings, Igor Levitin highlighted upcoming German participation in Moscow-St. Petersburg highway construction.

Pooooop

December 26th, 2004, 01:54 AM

(Pooooop:
I also frankly want to add another fact. The new Shinkansen's maximum speed is 400km/h and the operation speed is up to 360km/h).

Which model is this, and which line?
How do you mean? I've already explained many times - Tohoku and Hokkaido Shinkansens. The type is E954. The proto-type trains will be tested from 2005 onwards.

Pooooop

December 26th, 2004, 02:02 AM

In the end I think I have to call some people here are ideots. This discussion goes on and on as long as the people who are like some Americans continue to criticize a newly launched Japanese technology as this and that aspect is bad because they don't wanna accept the obvious superiority of the Japanese technology. Perhaps you should do it when Sony launches new gadgets, but not here.

Nephasto

December 26th, 2004, 05:50 AM

This discussion goes on and on as long as the people who are like some Americans continue to criticize a newly launched Japanese technology as this and that aspect is bad because they don't wanna accept the obvious superiority of the Japanese technology. Perhaps you should do it when Sony launches new gadgets, but not here.

Well, i just want to say that i believe in the shinkansen, as in all high speed trains, and i would much prefer to do the Tokyo - Sapporo route by shinkansen, then by plane.
High speed rail all the way! :D
As for the superiority of the Japanese technology... maybe you should learn something about modesty...
As for me, i don't consider the shinkansen superior to france's TGV, germany's ICE or spain's AVE for example. I just consider it's network superior, but that has nothing to do with tecnology. As for tecnology, i won't vote for anyone... they are all great, and ride really fast and that's what matters! :D

Nephasto

December 26th, 2004, 05:52 AM

Tokyo - Sapporo (Hokkaido)

1074.3km, 4h 23mins

Now we are talking! In this i believe, considering the 1074 km distance!
And you have to admit it's not a 300 km/h average!
Anyway, it's a ~ 245 km/h average speed, which is really fast!! But likely! :D

GuilhermeC

December 26th, 2004, 06:01 AM

All three look really nice! My dream is to travel in one of these. Any updates on the Madrid Barcelona Spain ICE construction?

Vapour

December 26th, 2004, 06:04 AM

All three look really nice! My dream is to travel in one of these. Any updates on the Madrid Barcelona Spain ICE construction?

The high speed line will reach Barcelona by 2050 or who knows... probably even later xDD

December 26th, 2004, 07:32 AM

I heard that JR Tokai or JR West is going to introduce the new Shinkansen made for Taiwan, 700T I think on Tokaido or Sanyo Shinkansen?

SkylineTurbo

December 26th, 2004, 10:38 AM

German ICE.

Poryaa

December 26th, 2004, 01:07 PM

The 700T is the improved type of the 700 series. The Taiwanese government demands only cars of the Shinkansen, so the Japanese offers the top quality products to the Taiwanese. But the grasping Communist China demands not only cars but the technology of the Shinkansen. The Japanese are not stupid, so they must offer the new Shinkansen to be improved the max speed to 200km/h to Communist China.

sdtj

December 26th, 2004, 02:13 PM

Pooooop

December 26th, 2004, 02:46 PM

In my opinion, exporting the trains into Taiwan itself wouldn't be problem that much. Japan Rail (JR) basically doesn't want to export the Shinkansen to the mainland China so they will probably use the French or German trains for its 1,300km network between Beijing and Shanghai.

Poryaa

December 26th, 2004, 02:52 PM

Pooooop

December 26th, 2004, 05:41 PM

The JR East tries to export the Shinkansen to Communist China, including its technology.
The trains will be exported to Taiwan are from JR West and JR Tokai, not JR East. Well why not, perhaps Taiwan still can claim itself being a part of "Greater Japan" rather than being a part of China.

:D

Poryaa

December 26th, 2004, 07:17 PM

The trains will be exported to Taiwan are from JR West and JR Tokai, not JR East. Well why not, perhaps Taiwan still can claim itself being a part of "Greater Japan" rather than being a part of China.

:D

I already know that. And its thought is wrong. Taiwan is Taiwan.

Pooooop

December 26th, 2004, 07:24 PM

But otherwise I think the Japanese companies are wrong to export its technologies to overseas. The Shinkansens in Taiwan and England aren't exceptional. Japan suffered from the recession or so-called "a lost decade" until recently and the attitude that they are volunteering abroad is not very nice. Rather, those money have been spent in overseas should have been allocated for the domestic issues. Many people suffered in Japan.

Pooooop

December 26th, 2004, 07:50 PM

And there have been accidents on the Shinkansen, just none that have caused injuries. There was one death when a student got his hand trapped in the door and got dragged along the platform. Concrete blocks from the roofing of the tunnels have fallen on trains. And there was the derailment from the Chuetsu earthquake, admittedly not really JR's fault.

Another thing, the Shinkansen has nor caused a death, neither major accidents and injuries. Can you back up your comment?

Poryaa

December 26th, 2004, 08:24 PM

Pooooop

December 27th, 2004, 12:19 AM

I already know that. And its thought is wrong. Taiwan is Taiwan.
There's a story of the birth of Shinkansen regarding to this Greater Japan plan. When the contruction of Shinkansen tracks began in 1939, it was initially meant to connect Tokyo and Beijing via a tunnel under the sea between Shimonoseki (south Japan) and Pusan (Korea) as a part of the Greater Japan plan until the construction stopped on the half way through due to the deteriorating war situation. Ironically the Shinkansen today uses the tracks built during that period. The name "Bullet Train" derives from this period when there wasn't the name "Shinkansen" still.

Pooooop

December 27th, 2004, 01:38 AM

Now we are talking! In this i believe, considering the 1074 km distance!
And you have to admit it's not a 300 km/h average!
Anyway, it's a ~ 245 km/h average speed, which is really fast!! But likely! :D
The average speed as for the Sanyo Shinkansen, Nozomi 500 is 261.8km/h between Hiroshima and Kokura, which is the world's fastest average operation speed record for the conventional highspeed rails. Tokyo - Sapporo is 3h 57mins. Period. 4h 23mins is by the current standard, not by the new train standard.

The construction between Aomori and Sapporo will begin in 2005 (out of which the Seikan tunnel is already the Shinkansen standard infrastructure from the beginning). It's definite. It was approved by the Ministry of Transport in 2004.

Pooooop

December 27th, 2004, 01:53 AM

The future Shinkansen network in Japan:

398km = Under Construction
767km = Approved
3,510km = Planned

December 27th, 2004, 02:25 AM

Do you have any maps of the future Shinkansen network?

coth

December 27th, 2004, 02:28 AM

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/
http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/graphics/routemap.gif

Monkey

December 27th, 2004, 02:51 AM

I have travelled on both systems and in my experience the Shinkansen has the edge. With the exception of the 500 Series the TGVs are slightly faster but the Shinkansen has phenomenal capacity (though this is needed more in Japan with its much larger population and higher density) and is more efficient and punctual. The trains themselves are also more spacious. Here are some stats:

TGV (older Paris Sud-Est type sets)
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 8 trailers
Capacity: 377 passengers
Service speed: 270 kph.

TGV (newer Atlantique type sets)
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 10 trailers
Capacity: 485 passengers
Service speed: 300 kph

TGV Duplex (double decker)
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 8 trailers
Capacity: 545 passengers or 1090 in double formation (European record)
Service speed: 300 kph

TGV Korea
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 18 trailers
Capacity: 935 passengers
Service speed: 300 kph

Eurostar
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 18 trailers
Capacity: 794 passengers (394m long - European record)
Service speed: 300 kph

Shinkansen Series 300/700
Formation: electric multiple unit with 16 cars
Capacity: 1324 passengers
Service speed: 270 kph (300 Series) 285 kph (700 Series)

Shinkansen Series 500
Formation: electric multiple unit with 16 cars
Capacity: 1324 passengers (404m long - world record)
Service speed: 300 kph

Shinkansen Series E4 (double decker)
Formation: electric multiple unit with 8 or 16 cars
Capacity: 812 passengers or 1624 in double formation (world record)
Service speed: 240 kph

Monkey

December 27th, 2004, 03:09 AM

Pooooop

December 27th, 2004, 03:20 AM

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/
http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/graphics/routemap.gif
That map is outdated and not from the Japanese source.

Pooooop

December 27th, 2004, 03:45 AM

Can't be bothered to translate from Japanese but here we go, add these onto the map above.

Under Construction:

Tohoku Shinkansen from Hachinohe to Shin-Aomori 81.2km
Hokuriku Shinkansen from Nagano to Toyama 161.2km and to Kanazawa 25km
Kyushu Shinkansen from Hakata and Shin-Yachiyo 129.9km

Approved:

Hokkaido Shinkansen from Shin-Aomori to Sapporo 360km
Hokuriku Shinkansen from Toyama to Sekido 35km and from Kanazawa to Osaka 254km
Kyushu Shinkansen from Hakata to Nagasaki 118km

Planned:

Hokkaido Shinkansen from Sapporo to Asahikawa 130km
Hokkaido Shinkansen from Oshamanbe to Sapporo 180km
Uetsu Shinkansen from Toyama to Aomori 560km
Ou Shinkansen from Fukushima to Akita 270km
Chuo (Central) Shinkansen from Tokyo to Osaka 480km (Maglev Shinkansen)
Sanin Shinkansen from Osaka to Shimonoseki 550km
Chugoku Odan Shinkansen from Okayama to Matsue 150km
Shikoku Shinkansen from Osaka to Oita 480km
Shikoku Odan Shinkansen from Okayama to Kochi 150km
Higashi (East) Kyushu Shinkansen from Fukuoka to Kagoshima 390km
Kyushu Odan Shinkansen from Oita to Kumamoto 120km

sdtj

December 27th, 2004, 03:56 AM

I looked all over and this is all I could find..

http://www.japanorama.com/images/map_rail_map.gif

http://www.rtri.or.jp/japanrail/JPG/Japan.Map.JR.jpg

http://www.jts.net.au/images/shinkansenmap.gif

Ning

December 27th, 2004, 04:47 AM

TGV EST EUROPEEN will run at 320 km/h.

http://dominique.resmon.free.fr/lumieres-d-iroise/cartes/france/cartes-sncf/tgv-reseau-sncf.jpg

(LGV = Ligne à Grande Vitesse (High-Speed Line))

A project is to build a TGV high speed line northeast from Baudrecourt (near Nancy) to the German border in order to link to the German high speed network (ICE) at Mannheim.

Phil

December 27th, 2004, 05:08 AM

The Shinkansen 500 Series, running at 300km/h on the Sanyo Shinkansen, and holding the world average speed record is quite simply the best train in the world at the moment. Too bad they only built nine of them: :(

It's also the most expensive, isn't it ?

Regarding this :
TGV (older Paris Sud-Est type sets)
Formation: electric trainset with 2 power cars and 8 trailers
Capacity: 377 passengers
Service speed: 270 kph.

It's not true anymore, they've been improved and most run now at 300km/h too.

Pooooop

December 27th, 2004, 05:34 AM

Well, i just want to say that i believe in the shinkansen, as in all high speed trains, and i would much prefer to do the Tokyo - Sapporo route by shinkansen, then by plane.
High speed rail all the way! :D
As for the superiority of the Japanese technology... maybe you should learn something about modesty...
As for me, i don't consider the shinkansen superior to france's TGV, germany's ICE or spain's AVE for example. I just consider it's network superior, but that has nothing to do with tecnology. As for tecnology, i won't vote for anyone... they are all great, and ride really fast and that's what matters! :D
I don't think none of 3 - ICE, Shinkansen and TGV are technologically superior to each other. They all use the most appropriate methods for their own countries. But the rest of them are basically more or less based on one of these 3. The US Acela, Spanish AVE and Korean KTX are based on TGV. Shanghai's maglev is based on the German Transrapid. Taiwan and the UK's CTRL have chose Shinkansen model. The UK and Norway have Pendolino similar to Italy. The UK, France, Italy and Belgium have Euroster. Germany and the Netherlands have ICE (btw: I've just seen one recently) and so on.

France is geographically advantageous over the Japanese mountaneous islands. But TGV is also more popular in the world as it's more cost effective and has the RER type infrastructure i.e. when in suburbs the trains run on the highspeed rail tracks and when in urban areas they run on the normal tracks for convenience unlike in Japan, where the highspeed rail tracks must be fully used as Japan's uppermost priority is the punctuality and safety.

As for the maglev technology Japan and Germany are very keen on the subject. But they use different methods each. The German Transrapid uses the nominal conductor magnetic plates. Or the "suck-in" magnetic plates style maglev. There's speed limit on this method, which is around 500km/h at maximum. Japan's maglev Shinkansen uses the superconductor technology that reduces the electrical resistance to zero in the magnetic field to repulse the trains from the magnetic plates. Theoretically there's virtually no speed limit using this method. The speed goes up infinitively by increasing the voltage as far as it goes. But the maglev Shinkansen tracks will cost 1.2 times more than the normal Shinkansen tracks. So many people in Japan assume that it would rather be better to construct the conventional Shinkansen tracks to expand the networks to increase the passenger capacity rather than building the maglev network.

Monkey

December 27th, 2004, 06:15 PM

It's also the most expensive, isn't it ?Yes it probably is and it shows- you get what you pay for. :yes:

December 28th, 2004, 06:19 AM

http://www.transport-pf.or.jp/english/land/rail/shinkansen2.html

Maps of new Shinkansen lines in English

Pooooop

December 28th, 2004, 07:05 AM

http://www.transport-pf.or.jp/english/land/rail/shinkansen2.html

Maps of new Shinkansen lines in English
Some of these have already been built and some are of under construction, not "scheduled to be built" lines. That data is from 1998.

sergergo

December 29th, 2004, 03:08 AM

Hi Evryone!! i like TGV and ICE

But have you heard from this???:

http://www.freeweb.hu/hmsoft/2004070607/2004070607_mskokt_vv3.jpg

http://www.freeweb.hu/hmsoft/2004070607/2004070607_mskokt_vv7.jpg

this the Russian ER200..

up to 250km/h...

sdtj

December 29th, 2004, 03:31 AM

Hi Evryone!! i like TGV and ICE

But have you heard from this???:

this the Russian ER200..

up to 250km/h...

Never heard of it.... It looks very retro like from the 50's not very aerodinamic for high speed...

Poryaa

December 29th, 2004, 12:09 PM

France is geographically advantageous over the Japanese mountaneous islands. But TGV is also more popular in the world as it's more cost effective and has the RER type infrastructure i.e. when in suburbs the trains run on the highspeed rail tracks and when in urban areas they run on the normal tracks for convenience unlike in Japan, where the highspeed rail tracks must be fully used as Japan's uppermost priority is the punctuality and safety.

It's right. The Korean geographical features are also similar to that of Japan. I heard that South Korea today had trouble with having adopted the TGV.

Pooooop

January 5th, 2005, 01:22 AM

http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/700keisinkansen_photo/41_030727_061_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/700keisinkansen_photo/41_030930_032_10.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/300keisinkansen_photo/41_040228_033_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/300keisinkansen_photo/41_031011_019_10.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/300keisinkansen_photo/41_030708_010_10.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E1/41_040208_054_e1_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E1/41_040228_119_e1_10.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E1_r/41_040214_014_e1r_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E1_r/41_040214_034_e1r_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E1_r/41_040214_023_e1r_10.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E2_asama/41_040208_067_e2a_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E2_asama/45_011007_026_e2a_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E2_asama/41_040214_003_e2a_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E2_hayate/45_030111_065_e2h_10.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E3_komathi/41_040214_064_e3k_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E3_komathi/41_040214_049_e3k_10.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E4/41_040228_157_e4_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E4/45_020615_092_e4_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/E4/41_040310_010_e4_10.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/500keinozomiphoto/45_010929_055_10.jpg http://www.n-freund.de/images/nozomi500_large.jpg http://www.barthe.net/jgallery/big/k500-2.jpg http://www.barthe.net/jgallery/big/k500-3.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/500keinozomiphoto/41_040228_038_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/500keinozomiphoto/41_030607_045_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/500keinozomiphoto/41_040228_085_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/500keinozomiphoto/41_030912_039_10.jpg http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~keibox/500keinozomiphoto/45_030111_035_10.jpg http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~tokiwa/tours/Kyoto_1/Nozomi_500.jpg http://www.pastel-web.com/jaguar/03y-8-1%20500kei%20nozomi%20hamamatsu.jpg

sdtj

January 5th, 2005, 01:29 AM

Great pics Pooooop We needed new ones... Thanks... :)

The Shinkansen wins hands down...

:eek2:

Pooooop

January 5th, 2005, 01:46 AM

Shinkansen Shinagawa Station. Tokyo, Shinagawa.

http://www.pp.iij4u.or.jp/~keiichir/images/station.jpg
http://www.pp.iij4u.or.jp/~keiichir/images/konai.jpg
http://www.pp.iij4u.or.jp/~keiichir/images/sinsina3.jpg

Nephasto

January 5th, 2005, 01:52 AM

But TGV is also more popular in the world as it's more cost effective and has the RER type infrastructure i.e. when in suburbs the trains run on the highspeed rail tracks and when in urban areas they run on the normal tracks for convenience unlike in Japan, where the highspeed rail tracks must be fully used as Japan's uppermost priority is the punctuality and safety.

The main reason why the shinkansen runs in fully separeted lines all the way is because the track gauge is diferent from the suburban trains...
Otherwise, it would probably be the same way as in the TGV, with trains using normal lines when arriving to cities.

Pooooop

January 5th, 2005, 01:54 AM

The main reason why the shinkansen runs in fully separeted lines all the way is because the track gauge is diferent from the suburban trains...
Otherwise, it would probably be the same way as in the TGV, with trains using normal lines when arriving to cities.
The different track gauge? Sorry mate I don't understand what you're on about.

Nephasto

January 5th, 2005, 01:54 AM

Those photos are fantastic!!
I must say that the shinkansen network is just amazing!! :D

Nephasto

January 5th, 2005, 01:57 AM

The different track gauge? Sorry mate I don't understand what you're on about.

Track gauge... Distance between rails.
Was that your doubt?

Pooooop

January 5th, 2005, 07:32 PM

Track gauge... Distance between rails.
Was that your doubt?
Like I said, TGV is more cost effective and popular as they use the ordinary rail tracks. But the Shinkansen tracks and stations are seperate from the ordinary rails. While TGV is compatible to the ordinary rail tracks and cost effective, the Shinkansens are punctual and safe on the other hand. One has advantages to the others and vice versa. No one is perfect. OK?

Nephasto

January 5th, 2005, 11:40 PM

While TGV is compatible to the ordinary rail tracks and cost effective, the Shinkansens are punctual and safe on the other hand. One has advantages to the others and vice versa. No one is perfect. OK?

Agreed! :yes:
Anyway, the TGV is safe too. The punctuality really is the big diference.

Monkey

January 6th, 2005, 12:14 AM

The main reason why the shinkansen runs in fully separeted lines all the way is because the track gauge is diferent from the suburban trains.
Otherwise, it would probably be the same way as in the TGV, with trains using normal lines when arriving to cities.Shainkansen uses standard gauge - the same as TGV and most trains elsewhere in the world. Are you sure the Japanese suburban lines use something different? It looked like standard gauge to me....

coth

January 6th, 2005, 12:17 AM

gauge is same but technology different.

Nephasto

January 6th, 2005, 12:48 AM

Shainkansen uses standard gauge - the same as TGV and most trains elsewhere in the world. Are you sure the Japanese suburban lines use something different? It looked like standard gauge to me....

I think so, but i'm not an expert in that matter.
How many gauges are in Japan? And what are them? Can anybody answear?
Is it all standart (1435 mm) like coth sugested (ate least in suburbgan lines)?

Vertigo

January 6th, 2005, 01:24 AM

@Monkey and Nephasto: no, only Shinkansen lines have standard gauge (1435mm). Other railways in Japan use narrow gauge, in this case 1067 mm (some exceptions exist).

This indeed means that Shinkansen is incompatible with the rest of the network, unlike the TGV which can also run on regular railway lines in France. Japan recently has rebuilt some existing lines to dual-gauge lines: so that both conventional trains and Shinkansen trains can run on it.

The same situation exists in Spain, where the AVE high speed lines are standard gauge, while the rest of the network is broad gauge. Talgo trains can run on both gauges though, they have adjustable axles.

Pooooop

January 6th, 2005, 01:55 AM

Nephasto

January 6th, 2005, 03:20 AM

@Monkey and Nephasto: no, only Shinkansen lines have standard gauge (1435mm). Other railways in Japan use narrow gauge, in this case 1067 mm (some exceptions exist).

Like i thought it was. Thank you for the information Vertigo! :)

Pooooop

January 6th, 2005, 03:38 AM

coth

January 6th, 2005, 11:49 AM

hey hey hey - watch your language!

Did He ever criticized you? He just asking in normal tone.

Matthieu

January 6th, 2005, 11:55 AM

Are you pepsicola who came back once again?

January 6th, 2005, 12:44 PM

Shinkansen:
http://jrail.hp.infoseek.co.jp/pic/off/tokyo_IMG/34.jpg

http://jrail.hp.infoseek.co.jp/pic/off/tokyo_IMG/35.jpg

http://jrail.hp.infoseek.co.jp/pic/off/tokyo_IMG/38.jpg

http://jrail.hp.infoseek.co.jp/pic/off/tokyo_IMG/39.jpg

http://jrail.hp.infoseek.co.jp/pic/off/koriyama_IMG/30.jpg

http://jrail.hp.infoseek.co.jp/pic/off/koriyama_IMG/32.jpg

http://jrail.hp.infoseek.co.jp/pic/off/koriyama_IMG/33.jpg

TipNTop

January 6th, 2005, 01:02 PM

The Shinakansen has some features to keep its safety and punctuality such as follows:

- There is no level crossing.
- Many tracks are elevated and some are located underground so that no one can interrupt and for many other conveniences.
- ATC (Automatic Train Control) is equipped so that the trains don't need to react on the signals on the tracks.
- CTC (Centralized Traffic Control) equipped: observing the trains in a control room to reduce labors in the stations and for better administration.

I don't think it's that who make the difference for the punctuality:

- There's no level crossing on the TGV, too (except when it runs on normal line)
- The traffic control is centralized, too (I think it's normal in all the countries, isn't it?)
- The TGV lines are fully closed by a fence.
- There is an "in board road signs system" in the TGV since 1980. There's no panels on the track 'cause it's too fast to look at it.
- This system include a 'curv speed" which must be follow by the driver. If he exceeds the speed over 10km/h, there's first an alarm and then the train stop.
- when the driver see an "in board panel", he has a few seconds to push a button to show he received the message.

But really the TGV often lose time when it com in the city, where the lines are the same for TGV and other trains. The TGV has Priority but sometimes the traffic is too important. And with a TGV each 2 minuts on the south west line, the probleme is propagated quickly.

Vertigo

January 6th, 2005, 08:51 PM

Still, it is an advantage that TGVs can also run on regular tracks. In Japan, Shinkansen can only be extended by building new lines. The TGV network can also be extended by just running TGVs on already existing lines.

Pooooop

January 6th, 2005, 09:50 PM

I don't think it's that who make the difference for the punctuality:

- There's no level crossing on the TGV, too (except when it runs on normal line)
- The traffic control is centralized, too (I think it's normal in all the countries, isn't it?)
- The TGV lines are fully closed by a fence.
- There is an "in board road signs system" in the TGV since 1980. There's no panels on the track 'cause it's too fast to look at it.
- This system include a 'curv speed" which must be follow by the driver. If he exceeds the speed over 10km/h, there's first an alarm and then the train stop.
- when the driver see an "in board panel", he has a few seconds to push a button to show he received the message.

But really the TGV often lose time when it com in the city, where the lines are the same for TGV and other trains. The TGV has Priority but sometimes the traffic is too important. And with a TGV each 2 minuts on the south west line, the probleme is propagated quickly.
The Shinkansens won't be affected by the signals on the normal tracks. By making the tracks solely for the Shinkansens, they will never be interrupted by other rail traffics. TGV method is good for cost reduction as they only need to construct the LGVs - Ligne à Grand Vitesse partially. Most countries in the world would prefer the TGV style as they don't have geographical disadvantages that Japan has. TGV's operating power is centralized while Shinkansen's one is diversed to adopt into various hard geographical features. The Shinkansen trains (as airtight as airplanes), tracks, overhead power wires, signals and tickets are all unique. This is one of the reasons why the Shinkansens are distinctive from the other highspeed rails.

Vertigo

January 6th, 2005, 11:44 PM

Well said. Shinkansen system is unique to Japan, and probably the best solution for Japan. Anyway, high speed rail wouldn't work on 1067 mm gauge, so not much choice. ;)

sdtj

January 7th, 2005, 12:30 AM

But with all the geographical disadvantage that Japan has they have managed to make their high speed system the most punctual in the world.

And for that they are the best...

:)

Pooooop

January 7th, 2005, 05:48 AM

Actually there are also some dual gauge Shinkansen lines in Japan as well although they are rare.

Frungy

January 7th, 2005, 07:14 AM

Pooooop

January 7th, 2005, 09:17 AM

Pooooop

January 7th, 2005, 09:21 AM

I forgot about this, the Kyushu Shinkansen type 800:
http://www.domo2.net/bbs/image/1072769074.jpg

Pooooop

January 7th, 2005, 09:28 AM

Not all non-Shinkansen lines in Japan are narrow gauge. There are quite a few suburban lines in Tokyo and Osaka that are standard gauge, like Keisei, Keikyu, Keio, Hankyu to name a few. The first two subways in Tokyo are also standard gauge. Also, the lines where Shinkansen run as a "semi-superexpress" like on the Yamagata and Akita branches have local trains that are standard gauge.
Can I make you angry again? To be honest, I have to divulge that there are also 3 other planned routes published for Hokkaido Shinkansen Lines such as 1. Sapporo-Asahikawa-Wakkanai route, 2. Sapporo-Asahikawa-Abashiri route and 3. Sapporo-Obihiro-Kushiro route. Of course the latest 400km/h caliber Shinkansens. :D

sdtj

January 7th, 2005, 09:37 AM

WOW!!!! Just when I thought I had seen it all...

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/pics/800logo.jpg

http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/hitachi-ltd/800.jpg

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/pics/800a.jpg

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/pics/800b.jpg

http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/pics/800std.jpg

Pooooop

January 7th, 2005, 10:00 AM

These aren't really related to the Shinkansen Tsubame 800 but are some other Tsubame series trains in Kyushu:

http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/001.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/green/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/green/07.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/green/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/green/08.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/green/12.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/green/13.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/economy/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/economy/03.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/deck/common2.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/gallery/04.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/deck/deck8.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/deck/toilet.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885kamome/deck/deck5.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/deck/common8.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/deck/deck1.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/green/16.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/003.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/green/11.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/green/12.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/compart/05.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/topcabin/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/economy/11.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/buffet/08.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/semi-com/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/semi-com/04.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/buffet/09.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/deck/07.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/deck/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/economy/14.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/deck/03.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/minishop/04.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/buffet/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_787new/minishop/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/004.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/green/04.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/green/08.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/green/14.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/shop/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/toilet/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/multi/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/deck/03.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/deck/16.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/economy/18.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/deck/06.jpg http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/deck/08.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/green/15.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/toilet/03.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_883sonic/deck/10.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/event/21.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/event/20.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/event/13.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/event/09.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/event/05.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/dome/10.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/dome/08.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/dome/04.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/toilets/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_485yuu/event/14.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/03.jpg http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/shop/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/green/10.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/salon/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/economy/02.jpg http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/panorama/07.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/kodomo/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/deck/08.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/deck/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/toilet/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/compart/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/green/11.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_251new/kodomo/06.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_yufumori1/001.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_yufumori1/salon/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_yufumori1/salon/02.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_yufumori1/salon/04.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_yufumori1/deck/06.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_yufumori1/deck/04.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_yufumori1/deck/01.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_yufumori1/compart/02.jpg

Vertigo

January 7th, 2005, 04:27 PM

Very nice trains! :cool:

That Tsubame 800 looks very similar to the ICE:
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/001.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-T/411/misc/C458305D-05F6-4E12-BB39-8526A2EEE959.jpg

Interior:
http://www62.tok2.com/home/tsubame787/seat_885sonic/green/01.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3/cab%2Binterior/ICE3_Lounge_NBS.jpg

tayser

January 8th, 2005, 01:01 AM

well the Japanese most certainly do the best interior (Even if half of them aren't Shinkansen)

Desven

January 8th, 2005, 02:03 AM

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3/cab%2Binterior/ICE3_Lounge_NBS.jpg

mhhh...this grandma doesn't really look happy :laugh:

coldstar

January 8th, 2005, 06:12 AM