idea-2 massive fuck off MSCPs, one where the Wellington Road industrial estate is, one on Shannon Street behind Quarry Hill. Cheap all day parking, with free buses every few mins into the city centre on a loop (either end being the MSCPs) then pedestrianise everything. Also eastgate MSCP accessible directly off the IRR.

Then add in electrification of all the surrounding rail lines (i.e. out to Halifax, Huddersfield, Harrogate, York, Barnsley & Knottingley), served every few minutes with a load of new railway stations such as:

Armley Canal Rd
Kirkstall Abbey
Kirkstall Forge
Calverley & Rodley
Apperley Bridge
New Wortley (Oldfield Lane)
Armley Moor
Butcher Hill
Pool & Bramhope
East End Park
Killingbeck
Thorpe Park (M1 Parkway)
Hunslet (Balm Road)
Stourton (Pontefract Road, M1 Parkway)
Elland Road
Beeston (Dewsbury Road)
Ardsley (Fall Lane)
Lower Wortley (Whitehall Road/Dixon Lane)
White Rose Centre

This would massively reduce both bus & car traffic into the centre, and allow us to pedestrianise the Headrow, Vicar Lane, Boar Lane and call lane.

Buses then serve places without trains into the Bus station, which could be relocated onto Sovereign Street & connected to the Railway station, or local interchanges where buses serve instead of the city centre e.g. Horsforth, Cross Gates, Stourton, New Pudsey, Kirkstall Abbey, White Rose Centre.

Thoughts?

Think you'd need to add in a station at the aiport. However I don't see completely pedestrianising the city centre as realistic.

Unfortunatley the chances of anything like this happening are probably zero because of funding. Leeds does need some form of rapid transport system but not a trolleybus system like has been proposed.

Its so frustrating when you see so many other cities have transport systems in place yet Leeds has jackshit. It makes it even more frustrating when you see the money pumped into these exisiting systems and the money spent on crossrail and even more bizzare the £50million that they are going to spend on the gondola across the thames near the millenium dome.

My thought on a transport policy is perhaps they have to look at something for the whole of West Yorkshire to have any hope of getting funding. Interestingley it seems a lot easier to get funding for existing systems than for setting up a new system. Could Leeds city council generate cash through private investement, an increase in council tax and build say half of one of the lines of the old tram proposal??

I know it would cost a lot of money however I feel for them to get any funding they need to have something in place already so they would have to very pro-active in funding its initial setup.

I'd also like to see electric car charging points put in as I feel this will be a growing market. Maybe some of the old railway arches could be used to store electic cars so commuters can get one straight off the train.

This would be more regional though. While you have these stations within the city limits, they'd continue on to other towns round about. So for instance, a service to Skipton would now be:

Armley Canal Rd
Kirkstall Abbey
Kirkstall Forge
Calverley & Rodley
Apperley Bridge
Shipley
...and usual calling pattern

to Brighouse:

New Wortley
Armley Moor
Bramley
New Pudsey
Laisterdyke
Bradford
Low Moor
Hipperholme
Halifax
Siddal
Elland
Brighouse
Huddersfield

to Huddersfield

Lower Wortley
Cottingley
White Rose Centre
Morley
...and usual

it'd never happen unless we got a political figure with the drive & clout to bring these benefits, basically an LCR elected mayor on a par with London's, but it'd take huge strains off the morning & evening M62

Some good ideas there, but I would not like to see The Headrow pedestrianised.

This would be more regional though. While you have these stations within the city limits, they'd continue on to other towns round about. So for instance, a service to Skipton would now be:

Armley Canal Rd
Kirkstall Abbey
Kirkstall Forge
Calverley & Rodley
Apperley Bridge
Shipley
...and usual calling pattern



Well I wouldn't pedestrianise the entire city centre imo and as for adding more stops on the Leeds - Skipton line wouldn't it be wise to add the extra stops on the Leeds - Bradford Forster Square line instead so Leeds - Skipton trains can run fast between Shipley and Leeds (although there really should be a station open to serve Crosshills between Steeton & Silsden and Cononley stations). Still I largely agree with additional stations on other lines considering new railway stations would be a relatively easy way of significantly improving transport across West Yorkshire.

Leeds - Bradford FS Line
* Leeds
* Armley Canal Road
* Kirkstall Bridge Road
* Kirkstall Forge (for Horsforth New Road Side)
* Apperley Bridge (for Yeadon, Rawdon and Greengates)
* Shipley
* Frizinghall
* Manningham
* Bradford Forster Square

I did a list way back in 2007 of potential new station sites which you may be interested in. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=277950&highlight=rail+Val+Verde&page=55

Interesting link below although I'm not sure how out of date it is

http://www.wymetro.com/news/projects

Apologies I wrote these up before I read through yours so there may be a lot of overlap. I've also focused more on the city areas.

York/Selby Line

East End Park/Cross Green-Station near pontefract lane.

Pontefract Line

Holbeck- Where Jack Lane, Marshall Street and Ninevah Road meet.
Hunslet/Aire Valley -Off pontefract road/Leeds Road (link to Aire Valley development)

Wakefield Line

Elland Road/Beeston-Adjacent land to Elland road next to railway line
Middleton-Off Thorpe/Middleton Lane

Huddesfield Line

Lower Wortley-
White Rose Centre/Millshaw Park Trading Estate-

Calverdale Line

Upper Wortley-Copley Hill or Tong Road

Wharefedale Line

Armley Canal Street- before harrogate line splits off.
Kirkstall-Wyther Drive
Kirkstall Forge

Harrogate Line

The Abbey/Hosforth South- Off spen lane or butcher lane.
Leeds and the suburb of Bradford Airport- Line splits off just after Horsforth (tram train?!)

Supertram circle line- To cover north/north east leeds

Obviously the issues with adding all the stations is that it would add time to existing journeys due to the number of stops.

Also be nice for Leeds to have its own transport symbol which you automatically link to Leeds. All you arty people post your ideas!!

I think we've got plenty of ideas, including me, but the reality is we don't feel the point in airing them when they just remain pie in the sky most of the time. Better to focus efforts on pressing for proposals on the cards like Kirkstall Forge.

The whole point of forums is to air your view point.

Ok, a rundown here including them on existing calling patterns:

Airedale & Wharfedale Lines

Leeds
Armley Canal Rd
Kirkstall Abbey
Kirkstall Forge
Calverley & Rodley Parkway
Apperly Bridge
Shipley
Frizinghall
Manningham
Bradford

Harrogate Line

Leeds
Burley Park
Headingley
Butcher Hill
Horsforth
Pool and Bramhope
Weeton
Pannal
Hornbeam Park
Harrogate
Bilton
Ripley
Hampsthwaite
Birstwith
Low Green
Summerbridge
Glasshouses
Pateley Bridge

York & Selby Lines

Leeds
East End Park
Killingbeck
Cross Gates
Thorpe Park
Garforth
East Garforth
Micklefield
Church Fenton
Ulleskelf
Colton
Copmanthorpe
Dringhouses
York


Pontefract Line

Leeds
Hunslet
Stourton Interchange
Woodlesford
Methley Junction
Castleford
New Fryston
Fairburn
Monk Fryston
Sherburn in Elmet

Methley Junction
Hightown
Glasshoughton
Pontefract Monkhill
Knottingley
Whitley Bridge
Hensall
Snaith
Rawcliffe
Goole

Hallam Line

Methley Junction
Normanton
Wakefield Kirgate
Calder Grove
Darton
Gawber
Barnsley
Kendray
Wombwell
Elsecar
Chapeltown
Ecclesfield
Meadowhall
Brightside
Sheffield

Wakefield Line

Leeds
Elland Road
Beeston
East Ardesley
Outwood
Wrenthorpe
Wakefield Westgate
Sandall & Agrbrigg
New Crofton
Fitzwilliam
Hemsworth
South Elmsall
Adwick
Bentley
Doncaster

Huddersfield Line

Leeds
Lower Wortley
Cottingley
White Rose Centre
Morley
Batley
Dewsbury
Ravensthorpe
Mirfield
Deighton
Huddersfield


Caldervale Line

Leeds
New Wortley
Armley Moor
Bramley
New Pudsey
Laisterdyke
Bradford

Laisterdyke
Bowling
Low Moor
Hipperholme
Halifax
Siddal
Elland
Brighouse
Deighton
Huddersfield


Bradford
Oakenshaw
Cleckheaton
Liversedge
Dewsbury Moor
Thornhill Lees
Horbury
Wakefield Kirkgate

The whole point of forums is to air your view point.

Thats fine and why we all use these forums, but this isn't a discussion about tackling congestion in any realistic sense, more a fantasy thread pining for lost railways of yesteryear.

An equally unrealistic but effective way of tackling congestion would be to give everyone a jet pack and let them fly around the city.

Harrogate - Pateley Bridge will never re-open. The line has been built over in several places, while all the bridges have been taken away. Bus frequency to Pateley is poor anyway, so there clearly isn't demand. Remember only a few thousand people live there- more live in many villages and suburbs where the money would be better spent. Far more realistic is the re-opening of the line to Ripon (where a feasibility study has been conducted).

I doubt that such a rural line would be in a rush to re-open either, but I don't think that you can judge demand for a transport project based on current demand for what is there now. Improving the transport system can release suppressed demand, and in the case of public transport, achieve substantial modal shift.

also given it's prime commuter belt I think it could be succesful. Especially if run as the 'Harogate Express', i.e. all stations to Harrogate, Horsforth, Leeds.

Leeds City Region needs a new transport network that is not built around the current hub and spoke method. At present, in most cases, you have to travel to your own town centre to get connecting transport to another city centre. This means that of you live in one city and work in another it is much more convenient to travel by car.

If the city region is to prosper as an economic area it needs public transport networks that allow people to get to places much more conveniently. Otherwise the roads are just going to get busier and busier.

I don't believe that simply opening new stations on existing railway lines will solve the problem. We need new mass transport routes that are based around typical journeys and not volumes of people travelling on particular routes.

Thats fine and why we all use these forums, but this isn't a discussion about tackling congestion in any realistic sense, more a fantasy thread pining for lost railways of yesteryear.

An equally unrealistic but effective way of tackling congestion would be to give everyone a jet pack and let them fly around the city.

I don't think that idea will take off........

Fair enough I was going a little off topic. However I wouldn't say having some of those stations open is pure fantasy and living in a dream world. The fact of the matter is Leeds isn't going to get a supertram. So they need to start thinking about what alternatives there are and one of these is to add additional stations on existing rail lines. The government seem more than willing to spend money on extending existing metro/tram lines but not on getting a new one up and running because of the initial outlay.

With just adding stations and no new lines the cost I would of thought would be a lot less. Yes we may be looking someway into the future but frankly there needs to be a long term solution not just getting one station open at Kirkstall Forge. If London can get £50million in funding for a Gondola over the Thames maybe fantasy ideas are the way to go....

While I theoretically agree, is there sufficient demand to put any good case across to inter-district routes?

Also, I would say Leeds City Region, due to its somewhat polycentric nature (at least in form, if not economy), is better at providing these links than other City Regions. In Leeds itself though, it is a very strong 'spoke' structure.

Fair enough I was going a little off topic. However I wouldn't say having some of those stations open is pure fantasy and living in a dream world. The fact of the matter is Leeds isn't going to get a supertram. So they need to start thinking about what alternatives there are and one of these is to add additional stations on existing rail lines. The government seem more than willing to spend money on extending existing metro/tram lines but not on getting a new one up and running because of the initial outlay.

With just adding stations and no new lines the cost I would of thought would be a lot less. Yes we may be looking someway into the future but frankly there needs to be a long term solution not just getting one station open at Kirkstall Forge. If London can get £50million in funding for a Gondola over the Thames maybe fantasy ideas are the way to go....

Well we need a devolved assembly, or similar powers to the LCR, to be able to direct those sort of funds to the schemes we want to.

I agree new stations are more realistic than entire new lines though. But it's more difficult than it sounds when most lines are two track, and largely congested already. Creating new stations means a lot of retimetabling and sorting out capacity on lines that have to take local, freight, inter-regional and national services.

We're talking in the realms of rail here though, and what about road transport? Buses need major restructuring, but this is an opportunity for the private sector. Express coach services a la Oxford Tube could do very well in Leeds. Buses are usually slow, stopping services. Express services could easily compete against the train and local bus services.

with regard to the 'hub an spoke' problem, I do agree.

In addition to the above, I'd also like to see Bradford-Horbury reopened, as well as Bradford Crossrail.

This would then give potential to run a half hourly cross-Bradford service from Ilkley & Skipton to Wakefield & Huddersfield via Halifax.

I.e.

Skipton
Cononley
Steeton & Silsden
Keighley
Crossflatts
Bingley
Saltaire
Shipley
Frizinghall
Manningham
Bradford Exchange
Oakenshaw
Cleckheaton
Liversedge
Dewsbury Moor
Horbury
Wakefield Kirkgate

With bringing passenger services back onto lines east of Castleford & in the Ferrybridge area, you could also run Huddersfield-Wakefield-Featherstone-Pontefract-Knottingley-York and Huddersfield-Wakefield-Normanton-Castleford-York.

I suppose it would provide a good diversion route from Leeds for long distance freight traffic heading from the WCML/Settle-Carlisle line to the ECML and MML.

With just adding stations and no new lines the cost I would of thought would be a lot less. Yes we may be looking someway into the future but frankly there needs to be a long term solution not just getting one station open at Kirkstall Forge. If London can get £50million in funding for a Gondola over the Thames maybe fantasy ideas are the way to go....

Sadly its not that simple. For every new station every service that stops there takes longer, increasing overall journey times. More stations and or more lines equals more trains which resutls in more congestion.

Then you have to factor in that the railways are operated by numerous independent franchises, how will they be persuaded to buy into this? I think Tram train is a more realistic answer, with lines like Holbeck being reopened and on-street running where appropriate. That would require, as No.1 suggest, some major devolution of powers to implement Tax Increment Funding etc.

Freddy-all the services we're talking about are operated by Northern trains as part of the MetroTrain service.

Even so, the first part is still valid. Congestion on lines, capacity issues, signalling standards etc... a lot of infrastructure needs to be upgraded before lots of extra trains can be put on and new stations opened.

oh no, I completely agree, it would.

However, if this were done, and I think it could be done probably for less than half the price of crossrail, we'd have the heavy rail infrastructure to link all our major cities together, and create a far more unified yorkshire than we have now.