Pittsburgh is such a cool city. It has more amentities than many cities its size or larger. There are also a decent amount of jobs in the Pittsburgh area. The unemployment rate is not that high. So why does the city and metro area keep losing population. I know the city will probably continue to lose population, but do you think the metro area will start gaining population in the future?

Pittsburgh is such a cool city. It has more amentities than many cities its size or larger. There are also a decent amount of jobs in the Pittsburgh area. The unemployment rate is not that high. So why does the city and metro area keep losing population. I know the city will probably continue to lose population, but do you think the metro area will start gaining population in the future?

Maybe its the victim of its own beautiful topography. i'd be hard pressed to think of any inland city that is so hilly internally and so almost mountainous externally (heck, even Denver, with the Rockies as a back drop, is relatively flat).

So Pittsburgh has to deal with streets running every which way up and down hills while negotiating three rivers, as well. the topography made a functional expressway system impossible and thus pgh doesn't have one to speak of. i can't think of another US city so weak in this department.

externally that's a lot of Allegany's out there that keeps Pittsburgh from having a meaningful hinterland.

Coastal San Francisco can handle the hill issue well; for interior Pittsburgh, they may be beautiful, but they are also problematic.

You can say that again. I got a hotel in the suburbs to save money but it was impossible to find because of the hills and the lack of a grid system. There also aren't any street signs big enough to read in Pennsylvania thanks to its signage laws.

When we run out of oil and Atlanta falls; Pittsburgh will once again reign!

Go Northeast! Hopefully Buffalo will also grow substantially. Warmth and sun of the South are highly overrated.

When we run out of oil and Atlanta falls; Pittsburgh will once again reign!

I think alot of the rust belt cities like Pittsburgh Baltimore Cleveland and St. Louis are going to make a comeback if they sell themselves and have a progressive plan for reinventing themselves.

Baltimore Already has tons of residential development in the downtown/Inner Harbor East/Fells Point/Canton/ and in South West Baltimore. Baltimore's Housing market is Booming over 7,500 homes sales within the city limits so far this year $155,000 average. Two years ago the average in the city was 75,000.
The enitre Baltimore Metro area housing average price is $266,000.

Pittsburgh is such a cool city. It has more amentities than many cities its size or larger. There are also a decent amount of jobs in the Pittsburgh area. The unemployment rate is not that high. So why does the city and metro area keep losing population. I know the city will probably continue to lose population, but do you think the metro area will start gaining population in the future?

My late step-grandparents lived in Monroeville and I always loved visiting them and Pittsburgh. Truly a beautiful city with some of the nicest and friendliest people east of the Mississippi. (I'm not B.S.'ing you.) My late step-grandfather was a foreman at a steel mill all his life and of course a die-hard Steeler's fan. However, I don't think Pittsburgh will recover from it's population loss until steel becomes once again as omnipresent in the US economy as computers are now. You can only hope. :cheers:

Does anyone else have an opinion about this issue?

Pittsburgh will need to Focus on New Jobs outside of Manufacturing if the Metro Population is to ever grow again.

I think alot of the rust belt cities like Pittsburgh Baltimore Cleveland and St. Louis are going to make a comeback if they sell themselves and have a progressive plan for reinventing themselves.

Well, it's a nice dream at any rate. :)

I really don't know what it takes. Pgh. has a rapidly aging population, virtually no in migration, and little job growth. Both Carnegie Mellon and Pitt have made strenuous efforts to seed startup companies and spur new job growth, and it really hasn't had much of a net effect.

Oh well, your guess is as good as mine. Maybe a total restructuring of the economy will change things, but it had better happen fast. Last I heard, Pittsburgh had actually dipped below 300,000 people. Yikes!!!! Syracuse here we come!!!

wow....pittsburgh is below 300K in population??

Pitsburgh was an awesome city long ago! Now it like deteriorizing lol! It not like Boston were the city still is growing after 200 years!!!

wow....pittsburgh is below 300K in population??


to me that is very supprising aswell. i always thatought that pittsburgh was a really big city lol

wow....pittsburgh is below 300K in population??
No. The current population of the City of Pittsburgh is right at 334,000. While the City's population has dropped, and could conceivably fall below 300k before stabilizing, the eminent demise of the region is greatly exaggerated. To tell the truth, Pittsburgh has faired much better than most of the other former industrial centers in the Northeast and Mid West.

Why is the population dropping. Its not like it did something wrong?

Why is the population dropping. Its not like it did something wrong?
The collapse of the steel industry prompted many people to initially leave in the 1970’s and 80’s. The cause of population loss today is not really economics, as universities, high tech research and hospitals have stabilized the loss of steel. The primary cause now is a combination of an aging population and out-migration to the surrounding outer- ring suburbs. There are currently quite a few people moving into the city, particularly the East End and South Side but their numbers have not been enough to counter balance the number of elderly and white flighters looking to escape high taxes and black majority public schools.

Sad to see the Steel City's decent...

No. The current population of the City of Pittsburgh is right at 334,000. While the City's population has dropped, and could conceivably fall below 300k before stabilizing, the eminent demise of the region is greatly exaggerated. To tell the truth, Pittsburgh has faired much better than most of the other former industrial centers in the Northeast and Mid West.

Is the 334,000 number based on five year old census figures (before the recession)? I certainly hope you're right, but I was shocked to hear a recent population estimate that was below 300 K. And, Pittsburgh's record since about 1980 has been decided mixed.

In terms of metropolitan areas, I can think of few places (other than Buffalo and Rochester, maybe) that have done as badly as Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has actually been one of the few metro areas to LOSE population. In fact, the situation is so bad that the state of Pennsylvania recently commissioned the Brookings Institution to come up with a viable plan for stimulating growth in a number of areas in the state, with a focus on Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.

The synopsis of those two cities gives a good sense of the challenges they both face. You can view that here if you're interested.

http://www.brookings.edu/pennsylvania/

Is the 334,000 number based on five year old census figures (before the recession)? I certainly hope you're right, but I was shocked to hear a recent population estimate that was below 300 K. And, Pittsburgh's record since about 1980 has been decided mixed.

In terms of metropolitan areas, I can think of few places (other than Buffalo and Rochester, maybe) that have done as badly as Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has actually been one of the few metro areas to LOSE population. In fact, the situation is so bad that the state of Pennsylvania recently commissioned the Brookings Institution to come up with a viable plan for stimulating growth in a number of areas in the state, with a focus on Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.

The synopsis of those two cities gives a good sense of the challenges they both face. You can view that here if you're interested.

http://www.brookings.edu/pennsylvania/
I can tell you with good authority that Pittsburgh has not yet slipped below 300K.... yet. I’m also pretty familiar with the Brookings Institute study and think that it contains a lot of good ideas for improving the region. Because of the current budget crisis the city government has had to take a good look at its shortcomings and has pretty much streamlined as much as they can. It’s now up to Allegheny County officials (consolidation anyone?) and the politicians in Harrisburg to come up with a way to help secure the future of cities in Pennsylvania.

It’s certain that Pittsburgh, in its current inception, will never again have the population that it once had. However, there is a current buzz with the influx of high paying healthcare, research and technology jobs that while the region may continue to slowly contract in numbers, it won’t wither up and die.

wow....pittsburgh is below 300K in population??

OMG! Pittsburgh is about the size of Raleigh, NC LOL. I always thought Pittsburgh was larger than that. Well, it has a very impressive skyline for its size.

OMG! Pittsburgh is about the size of Raleigh, NC LOL. I always thought Pittsburgh was larger than that. Well, it has a very impressive skyline for its size.


Yup. Awesome skyline!

http://members.tripod.com/snickers99/photos/pittatnite01.jpg

I can tell you with good authority that Pittsburgh has not yet slipped below 300K.... yet. I’m also pretty familiar with the Brookings Institute study and think that it contains a lot of good ideas for improving the region. Because of the current budget crisis the city government has had to take a good look at its shortcomings and has pretty much streamlined as much as they can. It’s now up to Allegheny County officials (consolidation anyone?) and the politicians in Harrisburg to come up with a way to help secure the future of cities in Pennsylvania.

It’s certain that Pittsburgh, in its current inception, will never again have the population that it once had. However, there is a current buzz with the influx of high paying healthcare, research and technology jobs that while the region may continue to slowly contract in numbers, it won’t wither up and die.

I certainly hope you're right. I really like Pittsburgh a great deal and have fond memories of it. It's the only large city I know in the US where one could walk around at 3:00 AM in almost absolute security (or at least it used to be).

One of the interesting things about this thread is how - based on current population - people equate a great city like Pittsburgh with places like Raleigh (????).

Pittsburgh was once a city of 700,000 people, with all of the infrastructure that that implies. I'm sure that if you went from Raleigh to Pittsburgh you'd have no problem differentiating between the two and which has a far greater sense of "place".

Pitsburgh was an awesome city long ago! Now it like deteriorizing lol! It not like Boston were the city still is growing after 200 years!!!

Ahem ... 375 years...

Ahem ... 375 years...

My bad. 200 years is when we got independece.

Yeah this is a great mystery to me...I travel down from WNY a couple times a summer and can't believe people wouldn't want to live there anymore.

Here in Buffalo, we just barely dipped below 300,000 at the 2000 Census. I don't believe Pittsburgh is below 300,000 yet, unless they lost 30,000 people in the last 4 years. Pittsburgh is losing population a lot faster than Buffalo is so it would be conceivable to me that by the 2010 or 2020 census Pittsburgh could be smaller than Buffalo. And Buffalo's population decrease has slowed to a crawl and actully projected to start gaining again in the next couple years. I was affraid that if we dropped another 100,000 we would be smaller than Rochester and then the Bills/Sabres might threaten to move to Rochester.

I'm sure that if you went from Raleigh to Pittsburgh you'd have no problem differentiating between the two and which has a far greater sense of "place".

So Raleigh wouldn't give people a sense of place. ?!? wtf?

So Raleigh wouldn't give people a sense of place. ?!? wtf?

I guess you have pretty good reading comprehension skills. You are correct sir! Compared to a REAL city like Pittsburgh, it absolutely would not - any more than a place like - say - Greenville, SC would.

bjfan82. I see the census bureau predicting lots of turnarounds in urban popn. declines, but they did the same thing after the 1990 census, and declines continued. I haven't researched Buffalo or Pittsburgh enough to hypothesize what could happen there, but I'm notoriously skeptical about estimates between censi.

One thing I am interested in is the "Golden Horseshoe" concept, in which Buffalo and Rochester seem to want to ride the coattails of Toronto's success. Is there much "buzz" about that in Buffalo or is it just propaganda the local MPO and C-of-C are using in their circles?

I dont get it..People in the US can be so dumb. Id rather live in Pittsburgh then live anywhere in the south. How can people like a city like greenville over P town? No offense.

SC has a lot of nice towns I luv Georgetown. Very cozy.

The city population of Pittsburgh doesn't mean anything. The metropolitan population is what matters. The Pittsburgh metropolitan area has over 2.5 million people, much larger than Raleigh, NC and many other cities.

The city population of Pittsburgh doesn't mean anything. The metropolitan population is what matters. The Pittsburgh metropolitan area has over 2.5 million people, much larger than Raleigh, NC and many other cities.

The city population does matter, especially when it declines. Revenue from States and Federal govts is often indexed by population. Often when a city population declines it creates the perception of decay that exacerbates the exodus and leaves behind poorer people who consume a lot of government resources and pay little in taxes. Unless the population decline is happening because people are crowded out by offices, stores and restaurants (not the case here), the leaders of the city really need to find ways to convince people to reoccupy the city. Those people in the metro area outside the city don't pay taxes to the city.

You are right scando. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I was addressing the population issue to the person that was suprised Pittsburgh only had 330,000. I was meaning to say that the metropolitan population is a real gauge of a city's size, not the actual population within the city limits.

I think it'll start again. Now that Murphy isn't running for a 4th term. We can get someone in here that can save the city.

man i hope pitt. rebounds it's a really nice city

I think right now is the best time to be moving into Pittsburgh and buying property.

Since the mid-90s, Pittsburgh's been under somewhat of an undiscovered renaissance. Things are growing and changing and yet there hasn't been a big hoopla over it...which is a good thing.

I think this period is going to last for a few more years before it starts to recoup. In the 90s Pittsburgh lost 30,000 people. I hope that Pgh doesn't lose another 30,000 in this decade.

I think that by 2020, Pittsburgh will have emerged from it's current depression.

As I said before, Pittsburgh is a really nice city with a nice downtown and very nice people. But it is part of the old industrial belt that is unfortunately not competitive with foreign products like steel, automobiles and other basic staples of a 21st century economy.

My step-uncle works for a relatively new small company that manufactures steel in southeast Ohio and they have to bust their ass to keep up with steel suppliers like China and South Korea.

Hopefully Pittsburgh will move into high-tech spinoffs from Pitt and Carnegie-Mellon University.

I have been looking at population statistics of the rustbelt cities and the decline trend is really slowing for most of the cities, I think the 2010-2020 timeframe is about right for re-birth

The more the investment into the tech sector and downtown infill, the quicker the problems can be overcome.

Pittsburgh has a huge downtown, they will probably be more white collar over the next few years and still getting away from the whole Industry thing more and more.

^^Being across the river from Canada it's hard to believe that Buffalo hasn't grown, at least since NAFTA was enacted. I know there was a lot of talk about how Buffalo would boom with NAFTA, but I have'nt seen much evidence, at least on my half-hour drives through Buffalo in the past few years.

I would think that Buffalo could establish itself as an enourmous collection and distribution center for goods passing out of and going to southern Ontario and the east coast of the US.

actually there are ALOT of canadian companies that have offices in niagara falls and buffalo...although its not a huge influx it is significant

Pittsburgh has already lost most of its industrial blue collar base - there are no steel mills left in the city. The problem is in creating new jobs/ Pittsburgh doesn't do it fast enough to get the momentum needed for creating a constant increased flow of transplants.

The transition can't happen overnight, but's it happening. The metro lost over 5% in the 80s and the loss was just over 1% in the 90s. It will continue until, as I mentioned, job growth can bring in more people than it currently does. With the losses in the 80s and 90s, a substancial chunk of the prime working age left these cities. Coupled with a senior population that either shrinks from, well death, or the big move to Florida... and you have a problem.

I believe that I read that in the second half of the 90s, 150,000 people moved out of the Pittsburgh metro. However 100,000 people moved to Pittsburgh in the that sime time. So people are moving in, just the those 2 numbers need to be flipped.

I was in Pittsburgh this weekend - my second visit to Pittsbugh. No matter what is going on with the population figures, it is a fantastic city. It is beautiful, incredible buildings, great skyline, lots of fun neighborhoods, great restaurants, lots of artsy people, beautiful houses (cheap), etc. and so on. It has so much going for it. I would say buy real estate now, because Pittsburgh has no way to go but up. They will work out the economic issues, and when combined with the existing high quality of life, it is a no brainer.

I think that it will, within the next 10-20 years. People are starting to really dig that whole "high quailty life", which I would agree Pittsburgh does have. As it is becoming more and more common for people to work at home. They can choose to live anywhere, so chances are they would want to live in a nice friendly family oriented, establshed city like Pittsburgh. That plus the job market there is definitely improving. I think that this could be the case for Buffalo too. As for Rochester, it is gaining population, just not in the city itself. Monroe county itself gained 22,000 people in the 90's, Ontario County gained over 6,000, and the rest of them sall more modest, but still positive, increases in their populations ( at least 2000 in each of them) as well. So I am a little confused, Roxbury Ranger, as to why you said that few metro areas have seen such decline as Pittsburgh other than Buffalo AND Rochester. Great Rochester, in population at least, isn't in decline at all. In fact, Rochester's suburbs are considered some of the best places to live AND work. Plus, the economies of all three of these great places (Rochester, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh) are definitely on the rebound.

Why would people leave Pittsburgh? It has beautiful terrain.
Anyway, I think that Pittsburgh will definitely gain population again.My guess is in 10 years.

I agree, I think it's the same thing about Cincinnati. "Why would you even leave it, it's so beautiful?" I guess the problem is essentially based around economic woes, more than anything else. I can assure you that Pittsburgh would probably be at its top game if the jobs were there.

^ It really would

What's the latest metropolitan population estimate and how much did that fall from the last one?

I feel for Pittsburgh. Half my family lives in Youngstown Ohio, right across the border from Pittsburgh. Youngstown was also a major steel city. If you look at the skyline it is frozen in the 1930's. But from what ive read Youngstown is making a small come back, so hopefully Pittsburgh can do the same. Ive been to Pittsburgh many times and its hands down one of my top 10 Favorite City's. And you cant beat the views!

Another big factor in Pittsburgh's population decline is the fact that it has one of the oldest populations outside of the sunbelt retirement meccas. Deaths significantly outnumber births and add to that the lack of international immigration and yet get a metro area with declining population. In spite of this Pittsburgh is still a very liveable and affordable place to live.

I see population decline as a PA problem, not a Pittsburgh problem. Philadelphia is also suffering the same type of population loss because the state isn't promoting itself as being a good place to live. We've been the only state in the NE with the lowest rate of population growth. MD has seen it's population rise, as well as NY, CT, MA, and NJ. As for Jersey, most of those immigrants are settling in North Jersey. Towns in the southern part of the state hasn't seen this type of immigration, not even Trenton!!! It needs to change.

Pa. has very generous retirement and state taxes. This is one reason why so many older people there. I read somewhere that Pa has the second highest amount of retired peoples next to Florida.

One of the problems PA has is its relatively high taxes. Here is a PA taxing scheme:
PENNSYLVANIA
Sales Taxes
State Sales Tax: 6% (food; clothing, text books, heating fuels, prescription and non-prescription drugs exempt) Other taxing entities may add up to 1%.
Gasoline Tax: 30 cents/gallon
Diesel Fuel Tax: 36.4 cents/gallon
Gasohol Tax: 30 cents/gallon
Cigarette Tax: $1.35/pack of 20

Personal Income Taxes
Tax Rate Range: Flat rate of 3.07%
Personal Tax Exemptions: None
Standard Deduction: None
Medical/Dental Deduction: None
Federal Income Tax Deduction: None

There are also property taxes which depends on your property's value. My grandmother pays nearly 6,000 dollars a year in property tax.

On top of the out of control property taxes the state charges an estete tax of 12%.

There are also other local taxes such as city and county taxes.

Corporations are also taxed heavily in PA. Corporations doing business in Pennsylvania are subject to Pennsylvania's Corporate Net Income Tax at a rate of 9.99%. This tax is levied on federal taxable income, without the federal net operating loss deduction.

The last tax I'll highlight is the Capital Stock and Franchise Tax which is imposed on corporations with capital stock, joint-stock associations, limited partnerships, business trusts and other companies doing business within Pennsylvania. Domestic corporations are subject to the Capital Stock Tax, while foreign corporations are subject to the Foreign Franchise Tax on capital stock apportioned to Pennsylvania. The tax is imposed at a rate of 11.99 mills on capital stock value.

They need to lower taxes to encourage growth; not have fast Eddie brag about 36% of the budget going to welfare.