Posted by DSC on UT:

85 Harbour Street is opposite 90 Harbour...

Application: Zoning Review Status: Not Started

Location: 85 HARBOUR ST
TORONTO ON

Ward 28: Toronto Centre-Rosedale

Application#: 11 188520 ZPR 00 ZR Accepted Date: May 5, 2011

Project: Non-Residential Building New Building

Description: Zoning review for new 30 storey mixed use building with retail at ground floor and office above.

More retail along the waterfront makes me happy. (and another parking lot bites the dust :))

Posted by Automation Gallery on UT:

85 HARBOUR ST

Site Plan Approval 11 194925 STE 28 SA Ward 28
- Tor & E.York May 13, 2011 --- --- --- ---

Site Plan Approval for Waterpark Phase III site - linked to previous approvals and existing development at 10-20 Bay St. - proposing office tower, 30 storeys, 128.55m at highest point - approximately 83,515 sq.m- would join into the Phase I and II buildings to the east

Well, if it is like the other Waterpark Places, I'm guessing this may be another dull looking glass tower.

They remind me of the World Financial Center buildings in NYC. That being said, I think that design trend has come and gone, so I don't expect it to look the same.

My sources tell me that Oxford is imminently about to sign most of the space in this tower to a major financial tenant.

I did some digging earlier, found a marketing video and took a few screenshots of the tower for your viewing pleasure. This complex, no matter how ordinary, will do wonders at patching up a colossal eyesore of a parking lot and the more jobs brought to the waterfront the better for Toronto.


http://www.arcestra.com/fileDl/fetchPublicFileLink.action;jsessionid=8039189CF8E8844BC32A7109070ACB41?id=6753220258974536474

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/filipvlasak/Screenshot2011-06-16at42303PM.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/filipvlasak/Screenshot2011-06-16at42325PM.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/filipvlasak/Screenshot2011-06-16at42356PM.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/filipvlasak/Screenshot2011-06-16at42412PM.png

:cheers:

Thanks for the find. That is the most boring design to hit the office market yet.

Between this and 501 Yonge, I'm losing faith in developers who build here.

I quite like the tower actually... Unobtrusive, inoffensive and provides the space for loads of high paying jobs in downtown Toronto. The waterfront location is also great, given how desolate that stretch of Queen's Quay is. It is also the ugliest parking lot we have in the city imo.

Second ugliest to me, behind the one at Queen and Shuter. That one is ripe for a massive development.

My problem with the Queen's Quay parking lot and what's directly behind it. You stand on QQ looking north and what do you see? A sea of parking, a highway, some sad, dying trees poking about, a decrepit building and then suddenly the skyline. It's underwhelming.

Man, why only 30 stories?

That is prime real-estate, atleast make it an icon. I say 60 stories. That would be a great addition to the skyline.

Green roof is a nice touch. I agree with Filip. Nothing too crazy but fills in a disastrous parking lot.

As mentioned earlier on UT; Oxford has been in advanced negotiation with a 'major financial institution' who is seeking to move back office operations from the burbs back into the downtown core. The reason why this office tower is so short and unimpressive is because they asked for a budget building with no frills.

Hey, it might not be 45 Bay, it might not be Scotia Plaza but this still unnamed financial institution will be repatriating jobs back into the downtown core that could have stayed in the 905.

There is a growing trend in Toronto where notable companies established in the 905 want to go downtown. Their workforce pretty much demands it. It's a great movement that could see a reverse of the 90s trend of suburban flight. What we might see is a booming downtown office market with a dying suburban one. I for one won't cry for their loss.

At least it's office.

At least it's office.

That's the key, this isn't Miami, people need a reason other than the weather to be in downtown Toronto, so jobs is good.

That's the key, this isn't Miami, people need a reason other than the weather to be in downtown Toronto, so jobs is good.

Theatre district, shopping, nightlife, restaurants, sports, education. Is that not enough?

Not if you have to drive in. Offices give an excuse to stay and go out. Just look at all the road closures today...

Not if you have to drive in. Offices give an excuse to stay and go out. Just look at all the road closures today...

Shut up RobFordMattToronto ;)

You could fit about ten Matts into the body of one Rub! :D

Plus, he'd have to have a full frontal lobotomy, so it is just not worth it! :ohno:

Shut up RobFordMattToronto ;)

The irony of that statement is that I've never hated anyone more than that pudgy man.

What about his pudgy brother with that gawdawful insincere show-all-the-teeth grin he uses for photo ops?

The photo of the two of them is what I used to force throw up if I ever eat something bad.

I'll leave it at that.

On the video that I posted earlier, someone on UT noticed that on the flythrough through the offices, you can see an RBC logo on every computer (just barely).

I think that may be our 'unannounced' major financial tenant.

Theatre district, shopping, nightlife, restaurants, sports, education. Is that not enough?

It's good, but there's always room for improvement. :)

The irony of that statement is that I've never hated anyone more than that pudgy man.

That's what the wink was for :D

An Arcestra testimonial from Oxford Properties on their animation for Waterpark Place III.

EUPT7P2QdeA

Some interesting tidbits of information were revealed. The project's cost is $325 million (which is imo quite significant for a 'budget' building) and he clearly says "this has helped us land a major tenant". So I guess it's all signed and done, guess we should have an official announcement soon.

Thanks for posting. I just visited the Arcestra website. They charge $0.20 a sq/ft. I've never heard of a 3D design firm charging like that before. And their quality looks about 10 years old if not more. If firms like Oxford want to impress they should use a company like Spine3D http://www.spine3d.com/. They did the models and animations for Pier 27, U,TIFF, and the Waterfront Redevelopment.

Spine 3D is proper quality.

Theatre district, shopping, nightlife, restaurants, sports, education. Is that not enough?

I see what you're saying, but my point was more that you need people to be earning money to make a city vibrant and successful, unless, like Florida, people just come for the weather and beaches, and as much as I love Toronto (so much so I will be moving there in 4 weeks today), if I had enough money to live anywhere and not work, it wouldn't be my first choice of places to live. However, for somewhere to work AND live, I think it's top banana.

I see what you're saying, but my point was more that you need people to be earning money to make a city vibrant and successful, unless, like Florida, people just come for the weather and beaches, and as much as I love Toronto (so much so I will be moving there in 4 weeks today), if I had enough money to live anywhere and not work, it wouldn't be my first choice of places to live. However, for somewhere to work AND live, I think it's top banana.

So what would be your top spot to live and not work? (just curious)

I still love living downtown, and would even if I didn't work (and money was no object).

Well sadly most people have to work so really the question is where do you picture yourself retiring? You keep bringing up Florida. Makes sense Bea Arthur.

We can sit out on the Lanai and have Mint Juleps! I want to be Blanche, though, of course! She got the best lines...
We'll get someone cranky to be Sophia! :D

We can sit out on the Lanai and have Mint Juleps! I want to be Blanche, though, of course! She got the best lines...
We'll get someone cranky to be Sophia! :D

You want to be an old slut?

We should get back on subject here.

You want to be an old slut?

.

What's wrong with that? Doesn't experience count for anything? :lol:

So what would be your top spot to live and not work? (just curious)

That's a really good question. There's no one place that's perfect, but my dream, if my writing was to come off, would be to spend some of the year in Squamish (town itself a dump, but access to beautiful scenery, windsurfing, snowboarding, wilderness and Vancouver) and some of the year in New Zealand (as my wife is a kiwi). Of course, as much summer as possible!

But I really am very happy that I will be moving to Toronto in 4 weeks time. I doubt I'll stay in the city to buy a home, but to have access to it from a work and play perspective will be awesome. I will probably buy an hour's commute away as I will be working from home and visiting the city out of peak traffic hours.

Be sure to buy a sturdy shovel once you get here!

Be sure to buy a sturdy shovel once you get here!

I love snow....maybe I won't after 10-20 years of clearing my drive in -15 though! Seriously, English winters are 6 months of dreary drizzle, a damp cold that rots you alive...I've heard there's about two weeks a year that are intolerable in Toronto, the rest is normal cold with snow and sun, which sounds good to me.

Barrie is much colder than Toronto, and gets much more snow. if I were you, I would move a hour south from Toronto, not an hour north.

I'd stick right downtown in Toronto, personally! :D

i would too, but unfortunately that isn't an option for some people.

It is always an option; we are adults of free will, and make choices as we go through life. It is not always convenient, but it is still very much an option.

I'm in the downtown for the first two months...Hamilton is an hour south, and I'm not sold on it. Quite a lot of Brits end up in Barrie...I know it's colder than Toronto by about 2 degrees in the winter, and in the snow belt, but I've been south and didn't like it that much.

I'm in the downtown for the first two months...Hamilton is an hour south, and I'm not sold on it. Quite a lot of Brits end up in Barrie...I know it's colder than Toronto by about 2 degrees in the winter, and in the snow belt, but I've been south and didn't like it that much.

Large, I'm not quite sure where you are getting your facts but you are way off with Barrie. There are very few Brits up there. If you're looking for a towns with a lot of Brits then you're better off looking west of the City. Cambridge and Kitchener/Waterloo is about the same distance to Toronto as Barrie is but offers a wealth of communities around them could pass as villages in the English countryside. Small villages with pubs and roundabouts. This area is also steeped in history compared to the regions around Barrie.

Towns and villages you may want to look at before considering Barrie.

Ayr
Paris
North Dumffries
Fergus
Acton
New Hamburg
Rockwood
Elora


The bonus of these towns is that none are more then a 10-20min drive to a larger town and all most with about an hours drive of Toronto.

Hey, Barrie isn't that bad. I know quite a few Brits up there actually. My grandparents used to live up there as well (who were English). It's got some great scenery, but I would agree with Andrew on Cambridge/Waterloo. Especially Waterloo, that city is booming.

I find Barrie to be more of a place people who crave suburban life at bargain prices. It's a pure auto-centric town where traffic for a town of 100,000 feels more like big city traffic. It used to be a place where people would move to for a slower pace of life but now it's no better then the centre of Vaughan or Mississauga. Unfortunately I have a few friends living up in that neck of the woods so I'm up there more then I care to be. I wish it was a more British or European styled area but it's just not. It's farmland at the gateway to cottage country with a cancerous amount of Big Box stores and subdivisions. Suburban Hell one hour north of Toronto.

Hope that didn't sound too negative.

^ couldn't agree more.

Well, when you make it sound like that, Barrie is a shithole. Some people, like you said, crave suburban life. They want space and single-family homes at a cheap price. That's not for me personally, which is why I would recommend somewhere else. Hopefully the Greenbelt will encourage Barrie to plan a little more carefully, if it survives the next few years under Hudak.

Paris, Startford and Niagara-on-the-Lake are jewels in the crown of small towns of Ontario.

They're absolutely my favourite places to go for a little Sunday getaway.

I only just discovered those areas when my parents moved to Ayr 3 years ago. I had no idea how great that area is for those that don't like urban living. Filip, you forgot Elora in that crown.

Looks great ... good infill.

But why no green roof on the higher tower?

I find Barrie to be more of a place people who crave suburban life at bargain prices. It's a pure auto-centric town where traffic for a town of 100,000 feels more like big city traffic. It used to be a place where people would move to for a slower pace of life but now it's no better then the centre of Vaughan or Mississauga. Unfortunately I have a few friends living up in that neck of the woods so I'm up there more then I care to be. I wish it was a more British or European styled area but it's just not. It's farmland at the gateway to cottage country with a cancerous amount of Big Box stores and subdivisions. Suburban Hell one hour north of Toronto.

Hope that didn't sound too negative.

I think it would be hard to sound any more negative!! Seriously, thanks for (all) your comments...it's a big deal moving to another country and I don't want to make it worse by living in a dump. I agree that there are large parts of Barrie that I wouldn't want to live in, and that there are too many sprawling breeding farms. I think I might rent there for a while before making a choice, but I will also visit those other places people have recommended.

Cheers all!

avoid newmarket and aurora too, it isn't any better than barrie. (if not worse) newmarket is the worst suburban blight i have ever seen on this planet.

I have family in Elora/Fergus and I have to say it's one of the more beautiful areas in Southern Ontario both for comfort and hospitality. If you're looking for a busy street life though it's not the place for you!!

New rendering for Waterpark Place III, posted by rwtctoronto on UrbanToronto:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/16122-Waterpark-Place-III-(85-Harbour-St-Oxford-30s)?p=556153#post556153

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/636/waterparkiii.jpg

I know there's going to be lots of moaning and groaning about this being another conservative box but I like its retro-50s, International Style aesthetic. Reminds me of Lever House on Park Avenue in Manhattan (c. 1952); a Modernist masterpiece.

http://i52.tinypic.com/11tlrus.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LeverHouseNewYork.JPG

i don't get peoples hate for this.. its much better than a lot of other buildings going up, especially if you only look at the office buildings being built right now.

Two of Canada's largest pension plans are teaming up to build a 30-storey office tower in downtown Toronto that will become the new national headquarters for Royal Bank of Canada (RY-T47.61-0.21-0.44%).

Globe and Mail, Oct. 14th, 2011


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/omers-cppib-to-develop-new-rbc-headquarters/article2201052/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=National&utm_content=2201052

Would have liked to see something larger in that location. I wonder if this means they will officially move their headquarters from Montreal.

^^ WOW! This is big news! Thanks for posting this, Bison! The article clearly states that the building will be the new national headquarters for RBC. I agree, 30 storeys does seem to be a letdown. Here is a snippet from the article you quoted.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/omers-cppib-to-develop-new-rbc-headquarters/article2201052/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=National&utm_content=2201052

OMERS, CPPIB to develop new RBC headquarters
TORONTO— The Canadian Press
Published Friday, Oct. 14, 2011 9:26AM EDT
Last updated Friday, Oct. 14, 2011 10:43AM EDT

Two of Canada's largest pension plans are teaming up to build a 30-storey office tower in downtown Toronto that will become the new national headquarters for Royal Bank of Canada (RY-T47.60-0.22-0.46%).

The development, to be called RBC WaterPark Place, is a 50-50 joint venture between the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and Oxford Properties Group, the real estate arm of OMERS, the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System.

more here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/omers-cppib-to-develop-new-rbc-headquarters/article2201052/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=National&utm_content=2201052

I wonder if BMO will follow.

Is this a separate RBC division from the main Royal Bank division? What about the existing Royal Bank tower?

I suppose their global operations will use the existing Royal Bank tower while their domestic retail operations will be run out of this new building.

This could mean a significant shift of jobs from Montreal to Toronto.

If they are officially moving their headquarters, RBC will lose its exemption from Quebec's language laws (if you base your company in Quebec, the language requirements for workplaces are less strict). I suspect switching to a French only environment may not be practical in a lot of circumstances, in which case you would just move the jobs to another province.

There is a rendering of the building in the CBC article.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/10/14/cppib-oxford-waterpark.html

^^ At 30 stories, i honestly didn't expect to get much more than a box. I hate being right.....

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1375095

Damn, I knew I couldn't be the first to find something.

30 storeys and it's the national HQ of Canada's largest bank????

The National Post (http://business.financialpost.com/2011/10/14/rbc-trades-bay-street-for-bay-view/) has a render. The RBC building will house their cosolidated national offices from around the GTA into a single downtown location in proximity to their Head Offices up on Front St.

I know the access road to the west of the site was scrapped due to local resident opposition. The York St. ramp will eventually be torn down replaced with one at Simcoe. I don't know what impact this development will have on other development in the area.

http://financialpostbusiness.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/1014rbc.jpg?w=620

Calm down everyone! This is only their national retail banking HQ - the global head office with all the bread and butter jobs (wealth management, investment banking, executive) will remain split between the much more glamorous RBC Plaza and Centre.

This could mean a significant shift of jobs from Montreal to Toronto.
.

The defacto head office has been here for about a generation now. Like the Bank of Montreal, the official head office in Montreal is relatively small.

I kind of expected this one to look pretty much identical to the RBC Dexia building, and it appears to be.

The head office is small, but I assumed, that like BMO, they have many operations in the Montreal area. If they are not moving their official headquarters, it doesn't matter anyway.

Four thousand seems like a lot of people from consolidation in the GTA alone, but not an improbable number I guess.

The rendering from the CBC article is a bit better than the one above, if anyone wants to post it. It is reminiscent of the other recent office buildings south of the railways.

^^ On paper, the head offices are in Montreal. In reality, they moved here in the 70's. They wouldn't dream of moving the official head office, as it would create political waves, and banks are not in the business of doing that.

Why cap it at 30? Won't they run out of space soon?

Why not go bold and make it 50 or 60 stories?

^^ I'm expecting that in this case they are simply maximizing the return of their investment, as a 30 storey building is cheaper to build. Shame, though... this could have been an opportunity at a very tall structure. I wish they would ditch the design they have been hung up on since the RBC Dexia building and go for something newer looking, but I don't think they will.

In a perfect world the city would reject this. I don't want southcore to be all glass. :ohno:

This will be the new hq for Canadian banking division only. RBC capital markets, wealth management, T&O, etc. will not move, maybe some support staff here and there, but that's all. It will be a very green and environmentally friendly building.

Welcome to the group!! :)

^^ likely pretty much identical to the RBC/Dexia and the Telus building.

^^ I'm expecting that in this case they are simply maximizing the return of their investment, as a 30 storey building is cheaper to build. Shame, though... this could have been an opportunity at a very tall structure. I wish they would ditch the design they have been hung up on since the RBC Dexia building and go for something newer looking, but I don't think they will.

I agree! This glass box crap just doesn't cut it for me. I want my bank to have a home that contributes to this city, not dulls it down.

http://financialpostbusiness.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/1014rbc.jpg?w=620

Maybe its just the rendering, but the previous one looked a lot better:

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/636/waterparkiii.jpg

One's looking east, the other west.

Still the same stuff for the western view:

http://media3.marketwire.com/docs/ox800.jpg

I don't know, I think I prefer the new render though both are almost the same.

i don't get all the fuss over this building. it actually has a setback, though is obviously still very boxy. this is far and away better than any other southcore building to be built so far.

I think Telus is way better but hey that's just my opinion.

Over on UT they were speculating about the tenants for the retail portion of the project. No doubt RBC will set up a branch there. They were also tossing around Sobeys. Both RBC and Sobeys already operate out of the Queens Quay Terminal, for all intents and purposes kitty corner from this location.

I can see the RBC moving, not sure about the Sobeys unless they were looking for a full-sized location to compete with Longo's and Loblaws which is now open 24 hours.

The area could definitely use an infusion of new retail, and hopefully due to the neighbourhood something that doesn't keep PATH retail hours. Tourists keep looking for shopping in the area and are kinda underwhelmed by the Queens Quay Terminal. It'd be one hell of a coup if an urban concept Target or Wal Mart got a foothold here.

They've started taking down the billboard at the northwest corner of the property where the York/Bay ramp splits off from the Yonge ramp. I guess they're serious about the November start date. It could be that they're just putting in new ads, but it's taking longer than usual which leads me to conclude to the former.

EllisDon hoarding has gone up around the parking lot. Strangely there was a police cruiser parked in the turning lane into the lot which now serves as a gate into the construction site.

I know the reconstruction of Queens Quay is also due soon if not early next year. If they start at Bay and work west it'll make the whole neighbourhood a mess with all the construction.

With all of the various renders of 120, 90 and 85 Harbour Street can anyone make a composite of what the neighbourhood will look like once all three are completed along with the Queens Quay redevelopment?

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii108/jasonzedd/Toronto/20111126019.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii108/jasonzedd/Toronto/20111203038.jpg

From the Oxford website, some new renders.

http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/images/images/1.jpg

http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/images/images/4.jpg

http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/images/images/3.jpg

http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/images/images/5.jpg

Check out the direct link to Union under the Gardiner, pretty slick.
http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/images/images/6.jpg

http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/images/images/8.jpg

http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/images/images/7.jpg

http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/plans/images/stacking-plan-v2.jpg

http://www.oxfordproperties.com/corp/media/RBC/plans/images/RBCWPP-FloorPlan.jpg

That bridge looks epic :drool:

Is there going to be enough clearance for trucks to go through?

Plenty.

Kudos on the site planning. The tower is smart and simple, nothing spectacular but good infill. The face the surrounding are has been taken into account is fantastic though. More of this.

Possible HUGE news. I was at a Family Christmas function tonight and was talking to my dad's best friend who is high up at Oxford Properties. We were talking developments and he asked me if I knew about this project. He told me that they were going to change the plans from the current scale to an office tower of 53 floors and 900,000 sq/ft.

Fingers crossed.

I hope they keep the bridge ;)

When he was describing it, he also mentioned that the building will have an elevated path connection under the Gardiner, that's how I knew exactly the property he was speaking of. So yes that will stay in the design.

wow.. that is quite the scoop if it comes true! Well done! :applause:

No problem, nice to beet U/T to the punch every now and then :)

Double the height of the current proposal as construction starts?

Possible HUGE news. I was at a Family Christmas function tonight and was talking to my dad's best friend who is high up at Oxford Properties. We were talking developments and he asked me if I knew about this project. He told me that they were going to change the plans from the current scale to an office tower of 53 floors and 900,000 sq/ft.

Fingers crossed.

If that's the case, I hope the design changes too. A 53 story building will dominate the waterfront skyline and therefore it deserves a much more spectacular design. Let's get something better than another grey, glass box. Would it kill the developers to actually put some effort (and money) and creativity into this very prominent building? With the new height, should come new demands.

Lets wait and see, I have a gut feeling he was mixing up 100 Adelaide West with this proposal but hey, crazier things have happened here in boom town so we could be seeing a major redesign with this building.

100 adelaide is 44 floors though.. unless they are going to increase the height again.

If it's getting a height increase to 53 floors, I really hope the design is changed. Nothing south of Front Street near the ACC stands out, and these buildings will be very visible from the classic Toronto Island view. Ice is probably the most unique of the lot, but I doubt it'll even be seen from the lake if all these new towers are going up.

Very nice indeed.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii108/jasonzedd/Toronto/20120220044.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii108/jasonzedd/Toronto/DSCF2745-1.jpg

I can't believe this parking lot is gone, it used to provide a great view point to the city skyline passing by it everyday in the 509.
Still, skyscrapers are always welcomed :)