I heard on CTV that quebec gets 63% of all the transfer payments made to the provinces? Can anyone possibly justify this? or is it simply a bribe?

In Quebec, they can justify pretty much anything. I am also very impressed by Mario Dumont's interesting concept of an "autonomous Quebec in Canada." I suppose this way he believes he can have a country, do whatever he wants, and get bankrolled by Canada. Oddly enough, he seems to think this is reasonable.

Dude, these transfer payments are one of the reasons us Albertans generally are not fond of Quebec. Remember that Ontario and Alberta are used piggy-banks by the federal government to pay equalization payments. I would like to know that my hard-earned and at least go to something better than a grand bribe by the liberal government.

Please don't bite the bait.

shouldnt this be in Canada forum

My patience for northern Quebec is running rather thin. I think we should take... lemme see here... an northward offset of the St.Lawrence river by... how many kilometers... 50, but more within a certain radius of Montreal, and follow the coast to the Labrador border for unobstructed domestic access by land, and kick the northern part of Quebec out of Canada. They are not worth the trouble, few people live there anyway, and that divide would not cause unreasonable complications with connections to other provinces..

I heard on CTV that quebec gets 63% of all the transfer payments made to the provinces? Can anyone possibly justify this? or is it simply a bribe?

Corruption is the short answer to this question.

The long answer goes as follows. Quebec has the highest taxation rate and user fee rate in all of North America. Their province wide social programs cost about the same as Ontario but to be fair, they do cost more and even with the higher taxation it is still hard for them to cover the cost of them.

This is where I lose it with them, even with the buget that should be only slightly in the red, it is more than 10 times what it should be according to forensic audits done by the feds (by the way, keep that quiet the feds don't want you to know that). So because of this debt in Quebec's buget they get huge transfer payments to cover it. Know you ask if the debt is way larger than it should be, were does all the money go?

The answer is corruption. Public employees skim off cash here and there, projects or programs cost more that was in the buget or recorded, etc. The one I love the most is how many government projects sent out to individual contractors are all back door deals that cost much more than it would have been if done right.

The sad truth is that we try and roast Ottawa about a measly $100 mill on tv commercials, we that is nothing compared to the billions that is sent to Quebec that makes corrupt civil survents, politicians and contractors rich off of OUR money. It is tant amount to shut up money.

i never understood why there is opposition to quebec seperation? maybe because we like montreal? how about we overtake montreal, and let go of the rest of them?

Well, if they seperated, we would apart for a few decades while the Quebec economy went down the #$%^hole, then they would come back whining to us for money. They would join back into the country, and then we would get ^%#&* over having to help fix them up. Quebec simply doesn't have an economy they could run autonomously (sp) on for even 30 years...

Let's just build that high-speed train link from TO to Mtl...that way we can just look at Mtl as the new Barrie? Just a burb of TO.

Alberta...well you guys can steam over it....it's not like you actually "earned" all that revenue...it's just oil. LOL!!!






KGB

Of course we "earned" our revenue! We found the oil, we brought the companies here to get the oil, we got the oil out of the ground, and then we sold it! We also had to protect our oil several times from a greedy federal government which took direct attacks at Alberta's economy (bloody Trudeau!).

You don't see Saskatchewan being rich do you? And they have reserves 1/3 as big as ours, as well as huge amounts of potash and uranium! How about the maritimes? Plenty of oil there too, but nobody is doing the work getting it!

You can't really blame us for wanting the rest of the country to keep their bloody hands off of our oil. Thank god the government is finally selling Petro Canada! :bash:

Natural resources are a "Canadian" thing....just because it's located in a certain part of the country doesn't make it grounds to get greedy about it...which is how Alberta plays it out.

It's a Beverly Hillbilly story....your economy was agricultural until somebody hit oil in Leduc back in '47. You are like the Canadian Middle East....living in a tent one day....and the next day you have a 400 foot yacht for each day of the week.

Ontario earned it's money the hard way....and we have been drained of it the hard way forever as well. Listening to Albertans gripe about "their" found oil money all the time is tiring. Wanting to keep this national resource is just plain greedy....and why you guys act like Americans more than any bunch in the country.

Suck it up like a big boy....it's found wealth....don't be so greedy now that YOU don't need to be on the federal dole.






KGB

Well said KGB.

By the way, PetroCan was the company that started the oil production in Alberta and it was funded as a crown corperation from the feds.

Natural resources are a provincial jurisdiction as stated in the constitution.

We are particularly sensitive when someone tries to take a grab at our oil because it is one of the few things driving our economy. If that gets shut down we will become poor. Ontario has a diverse enough economy that it doesn't need to worry about any one sector, we don't have that luxury yet.

And you should be angrier about the whole thing than us Albertans. You are getting used as a slush fund and your economy is slipping into the red.

Homer: PetroCan DID NOT start oil production in Alberta. Oil and gas production has been going on for most of the century, with oil being discovered in Leduc and Turner valley. PetroCan was made in 1975 as an attempt by the federal government to get a foothold in the industry. This interference in our economy is what has started the spiral of hate for the company.

"Natural resources are a provincial jurisdiction as stated in the constitution.
"


Transfer payments are also part of our constitution. We started a country on the principal that the WHOLE country shares the wealth of this nation....that our standard of living is the same wherever you are in the country. Didn't seem to bother Westerners before oil was discovered...why now? Greed...that's why.

Some of you want your cake and eat it too.


"We are particularly sensitive when someone tries to take a grab at our oil "

I would substitute "sensitive" for "greedy".

You should be grateful you are now a contributer to the Cdn standard of living...and it was from just being "lucky" enough to have oil under your feet.






KGB

Is it just me or is this jealousy I hear? :lol:

Let's just build that high-speed train link from TO to Mtl...that way we can just look at Mtl as the new Barrie? Just a burb of TO.

Alberta...well you guys can steam over it....it's not like you actually "earned" all that revenue...it's just oil. LOL!!!






KGB

1 hour commute to montreal. that would be nice, go there on friday, come back to real life sunday night. you could even live there and work in toronto!

"Is it just me or is this jealousy I hear? "


Just when you think that attitude couldn't get any worse.......






KGB

1 hour commute to montreal. that would be nice, go there on friday, come back to real life sunday night. you could even live there and work in toronto!

I would absolutely love that, but if the $37B for a high speed train through California is any indication, we won't be getting one for a long time.

BTW.. Living in Toronto and working in Montreal is much better -- but right now the commute is a real pain in the ass -- thank god I only do it once a month.

1 hour commute to montreal. that would be nice, go there on friday, come back to real life sunday night. you could even live there and work in toronto!
It would be better if this could be turned into a high-activity economic corridor. Not to say that it isn't highly active, but more active. Build a relationship between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal comparable (but still smaller scale, obviously) to Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka via such a high-speed line. Could be a massively large economic benefit, if built with a fast enough operating speed (it would need to be 250-300km/h, and perhaps quad-track). It'd be a massive time saver without the need for the atrocious garbage of airports, in which you spend more time than on the plane and blow certain airline routes off the map.

Won't ever happen though, the Ministry is too much of a retard to figure this crap out.

"the Ministry is too much of a retard to figure this crap out."


I don't think they are that stupid at all. I just don't think anyone has the cajones to kill the domestic air industry....which illiminating the Que-Windsor corridor will do. It would also kill the trucking industry in the same corridor. Those are two very entrenched and influencial markets that would fight to the death.

Although it would certainly boost passenger service on poor ole VIA (that corridor basically owns the that entire industry), as well as take a hell of a lot of pressure off the battered 401.






KGB

"the Ministry is too much of a retard to figure this crap out."


I don't think they are that stupid at all. I just don't think anyone has the cajones to kill the domestic air industry....which illiminating the Que-Windsor corridor will do. It would also kill the trucking industry in the same corridor. Those are two very entrenched and influencial markets that would fight to the death.

Although it would certainly boost passenger service on poor ole VIA (that corridor basically owns the that entire industry), as well as take a hell of a lot of pressure off the battered 401.






KGB
There will always be a market for door-to-door freight, which railway corridors, no matter how high in speed, can compete with. The trucking industry has nothing to worry about. If they wanted to be clever, they could develop trains that allow trucks to drive onto the train, zip across to the other end of the line at triple the speed, and drive right off again (without having to turn around) and turn it into a benefit for the trucking industry while at the same time taking a lot of pressure (potentially) off the 401.
As for air traffic, "killing the domestic air industry" is an overstatement IMO, since there are still plenty of other cities that people need to get to in the country that lie in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore, the less clutter domestic airlines take at Pearson and Trudeau, the more room for international flights (and if they wanted to, the new-and-improved corridor could (ideally) be tweaked to run through the airports to cooperate with that industry). Pearson's continuously expanding, so I'm sure there is no shortage of demand and that operations are constantly at capacity. Putting as many people as you can on a train instead of a plane is also a lot cleaner.
I think there is a lot of potential that goes unnoticed, but what really makes me question there intelligence is how much they slack on it, letting it drag with little progress. Such slack only makes things more expensive, assuming they don't intend to abandon their plans for the corridor altogether.

It has just occured to me that this has flown way off topic.

"There will always be a market for door-to-door freight, which railway corridors, no matter how high in speed, can compete with. The trucking industry has nothing to worry about. "


I spent years involved with the LTL/courier business...the competativeness alone killed many companies...the trucking industry is already "worried". And a lot of cross-dock shipping would be killed by a high speed rail from Toronto-Montreal. I'm assuming there would be special containers designed to be quickly loaded and unloaded that would be far faster and cheaper than trucking it. I don't think a high speed train would be best utilized by holding the whole truck...just the cargo.

The domestic air industry is so competative, that attacking the Toronto-montreal shuttles would be enough to kill it. I mean com'on...how long do we have to watch some new "cheap" airline get born and die? If a high speed rail line from downtown Toronto to downtown Mtl can be within 2 hours, that would be enough to increase ridership, as well as lower cost. Would you fly from Pearson to Dorval if there was a two-hour no-hassle train ride?




"It has just occured to me that this has flown way off topic."


There really isn't much to discus about the topic.







KGB

Quebec formula criticized as federal cash grab

By BRIAN LAGHI AND CAMPBELL CLARK,

UPDATED AT 1:59 PM EDT Monday, Sep 27, 2004

Advertisement

OTTAWA -- Quebec is heading for a clash with Atlantic Canadian provinces over who should get the lion's share of new cash Ottawa is prepared to dole out to the "have-not" provinces under the sharing formula that redistributes national wealth.

The battle comes in advance of a meeting next month during which federal and provincial governments will discuss a new way to allocate funding under the national equalization program.

It also threatens to upset the unity that the provinces demonstrated during the recent health summit.

At issue is the distribution of a federal top-up to the equalization worth $1.7-billion, announced during negotiations over the health accord.

The money would be shared by the four Atlantic provinces, Quebec, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

They have not reached a consensus on who should get the most.

The Atlantic provinces -- which get more money per person because they are the poorest in Confederation -- argue that each province should get the same proportion of the larger equalization fund as it now does.

But Quebec wants the new money to be divided evenly on a per capita basis.

"It would basically bastardize the whole system of what equalization is all about," an Atlantic Canadian provincial official said.

The disagreement began after Ottawa announced at the health summit that it would increase equalization payments to have-not provinces from a projected $9.2-billion this year to $10.9-billion in 2005-2006.

Under the current equalization program, Ottawa transfers money to poorer provinces so that they can deliver a level of public services comparable to that of the "have" provinces, Alberta and Ontario.

Because they are farther below the national average, the four Atlantic provinces and Manitoba get far more money per person than the more affluent in the have-not group (Quebec, British Columbia and Saskatchewan).

"You can't do it on a per capita basis when the idea of equalization is for provinces to be able to provide reasonable comparable levels of service at reasonable comparable levels of taxation," one Atlantic Canadian official said.

Quebec officials argue their position is the fairest because it would simply increase the national standard for the amount of revenue each province should be able to raise to the same amount for all eight have-not provinces.

They say that the Atlantic argument for dividing the money based on the proportion that each province now receives would in effect distort the system by making the poorest provinces, such as Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, "richer" than more affluent ones such as B.C. and Quebec.

Right now, equalization payments are based on a standard calculated from the average tax base of five middle-income provinces. That amount, $6,126, represents an amount of taxes that they might reasonably levy from each citizen. Ottawa pays each of the have-not provinces the difference between its real tax base and the national standard.

Quebec, which can raise $5,635 per person in taxes, gets $490 per person so that it can catch up to the national standard. Prince Edward Island, with a tax base of only $4,369 per person, gets more than three times as much as Quebec.

Quebec argues that the national standard should simply be raised for all the provinces, so that each province is "equalized" to the same level: $6,156 next year, and about $6,190 in 2005-06. They say the formula favoured by the Atlantic provinces would in effect give them a higher standard than Quebec or B.C.

Sources said the battle over the top-up threatens to obscure what may end up being a bigger war over Ottawa's plan to fix the costs of the scheme to the federal treasury. Currently, the annual equalization allotment is based on a complex formula that can rise and fall abruptly depending on the performance of individual provincial economies.

Ottawa wants to introduce predictability into the formula by setting a floor of $10.9-billion per year and increasing the fund by 3.5 per cent a year. While that is welcomed by some, there is also concern it will not fully protect provincial economies from drastic shocks.

Ottawa also wants to establish a special commission whose role it would be to develop a distribution system for the fund starting in 2006-07, an idea that has created suspicion among some provinces.

The issue threatens to disrupt the unity of the provinces' new Council of the Federation now that they are forced to argue about how to divide up federal money, rather than calling for more.

Those splits almost caused a late snag for the federal-provincial health-care accord signed earlier this month, when a group of premiers rushed in to see Prime Minister Paul Martin to press him to hold a meeting about the equalization system in January, but agree to an immediate increase in payments. Mr. Martin refused, but agreed to a meeting on the issue next month.

Quebec officials said that Premier Jean Charest made a concession at that meeting by agreeing to Atlantic Canada's formula for dividing the additional money in the current fiscal year.

That came even though Ottawa proposed that the additional money be divided based on population, as Quebec wanted.

But for next year, 2005-06, Quebec wants the additional money to be split based on population, giving it -- along with Saskatchewan and British Columbia -- a bigger share.



© 2004 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.

The thing is BC probably will not need transfers for too much longer. Quebec, on the other hand, always needs transfers. That no one (particularly seperatists) in that province questions the fact that Quebec has been collecting transfers for decades is beyond me. That is tens of billions of dollars...all because they can't get their financial house in orer.

I spent years involved with the LTL/courier business...the competativeness alone killed many companies...the trucking industry is already "worried". And a lot of cross-dock shipping would be killed by a high speed rail from Toronto-Montreal. I'm assuming there would be special containers designed to be quickly loaded and unloaded that would be far faster and cheaper than trucking it. I don't think a high speed train would be best utilized by holding the whole truck...just the cargo.

I was not aware of a ship-freight route between Toronto and Montreal - except of course for really, REALLY large cargo (furniture and such), that neither train nor truck can carry anyway. Which leads me to think that ship-frieght has a niche that won't be affected by rail competition. As for loading the cargo or the whole truck, you have a point, but the unloading method becomes a more complicated design compared to just loading the trucks and having them drive off. I was thinking along the efficiency of not actually having to move the cargo out of the trucks to save time.

The domestic air industry is so competative, that attacking the Toronto-montreal shuttles would be enough to kill it. I mean com'on...how long do we have to watch some new "cheap" airline get born and die? If a high speed rail line from downtown Toronto to downtown Mtl can be within 2 hours, that would be enough to increase ridership, as well as lower cost. Would you fly from Pearson to Dorval if there was a two-hour no-hassle train ride?

KGB, there are other airports in the country besides Pearson and Trudeau/Dorval, the air industry will still have plenty to play with. Montreal and Toronto do deal with the west side as well, Edmonton and Vancouver are noteworthy.
Of course people are not going to take the plane if there's a far less hassle train ride. That's sorta the point. Short distance air-travel is already dieing along certain corridors in other parts of the world, like France and Japan. It is normal, because air is better suited for long distance, which HSR can't do as effeciently. I think we should be focused about getting that which is most efficient for both passenger and freight, as that brings strength and growth, not what inferior air route will be discontinued because of the new HSR route, that will only stagnate as it becomes more dated.

Well said KGB.

By the way, PetroCan was the company that started the oil production in Alberta and it was funded as a crown corperation from the feds.

ctually Petro Can was started in teh 70s by the feds as a means to control the oil industry in canada.

"ctually Petro Can was started in teh 70s by the feds as a means to control the oil industry in canada."

See, BigW has said the same thing I said.


Mon, September 27, 2004

Paying for Petrocan

Failed socialist experiment cost more than $100 billion



By Ezra Levant -- Calgary Sun


The federal government will sell the last of its stake in Petro-Canada. There should be a celebration, but it should be mild, for Ottawa will still be a major meddler in the company, as it is with all energy companies.

The $3-billion stake Ottawa will sell is actually a smaller lever of control over Petrocan than the multitudinous taxes and regulations that still bind the oil giant, like Gulliver pinned down by 100 miniature soldiers in Lilliput.

Then there is the Kyoto Protocol, enthusiastically endorsed by Prime Minister Paul Martin. If he keeps his promise to implement that treaty, Petro-Canada will bleed more than $3-billion each year. That's a pretty good reason for a government to sell off shares in an oil company now, come to think of it.



No, the news of Petro-Canada's sale should be marked as a solemn remembrance for the decades-long fiasco that it was -- a company built out of the ashes of the energy industry after it was scorched by the Liberals in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Back then, Quebec's hegemony over Canada was being threatened by the rapid growth of Alberta's population and even faster growth of the oil patch. The economic centre of gravity was moving West, and the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal axis of power was being challenged. That could not stand, at least according to Paul Martin's mentors, Pierre Trudeau and Marc Lalonde.

Lalonde himself publicly admitted at the time that staunching the flow of money to the West was a guiding principle of his National Energy Program. In addition to forcing oil companies to sell oil below its market value, usurious taxes and political review of foreign investment, the NEP nationalized a good portion of the industry into the body of Petro-Canada, distorting the marketplace for all private sector competitors.

Petro-Canada wasn't about energy. It was about socialism. Proof of that was that its early president was Maurice Strong, the globo-socialist who went on to chair the Rio Summit against oil, and became chief architect of the Kyoto Protocol. Martin is connected here again. It was Strong who gave him a job in college working for him in this socialist enterprise.

The word socialist is not casually chosen here. Building a government-owned oil company was all the rage in the 1970s and early 1980s with every two-bit socialist country in the world, a poor man's atomic bomb used for propaganda purposes and to give a philosophical veneer to stealing successful businesses.

Like so many other nationalizations, Petro-Canada failed, and that failure was finally admitted last week. We were slower than most socialist countries to realize this failure.

But another reason to mark this sale with more solemnity than joy is that the legacy of Petro-Canada will live on for decades to come in the form of national debt. Like banana republics that nationalized oil companies, Canada did so at extraordinary cost -- a cost financed through national debt.

Dave Yaeger, Canada's premier oil journalist, recently calculated that the present value of the total expenditures by Ottawa to build Petro-Canada is in excess of $100-billion -- fully a fifth of Canada's national debt.

Sure, let's celebrate the government exit from Petro-Canada. But let's not pretend that they have exited the oil patch, for their taxes and regulations remain, and Kyoto looms. Let's remember that it was a socialist enterprise involving Maurice Strong and Paul Martin.

And never forget that we'll be paying for it long after they and their failed ideas are dead.

You Albertans do realize that oil is a non-renewable source right?
Once it's all extracted, that's it. It's going to happen in our lifetime so enjoy the wealth while it lasts. It's just unfortunate that the Alberta economy is not diversified enough to cope with this looming crash.

BC has absolutely no excuse for being a have-not province. Considering that every one and their mother is in a union and likes to kick-it back, it's no wonder industry shies away from that province.

Actually,

Alberta oil was subsidized by Canadian taxpayers to the tune of about $1.00 per barrel until 1972 (a number that I believe is adjusted for inflation). This was done in order to support the Alberta oil business. As for Alberta owning the resources, I believe that much of the oil industry is now foreign owned. The province derives royalty revenues from these companies.

Actually,

Alberta oil was subsidized by Canadian taxpayers to the tune of about $1.00 per barrel until 1972 (a number that I believe is adjusted for inflation). This was done in order to support the Alberta oil business. As for Alberta owning the resources, I believe that much of the oil industry is now foreign owned. The province derives royalty revenues from these companies.

Interesting points - please substantiate with proof.

BTW, the resources are owned by the provinces as stated in the constitution. Provinces may elect to allow foreign companies - as well as Canadian companies - the right to extract these resources for a fee. The fact that foreign companies pay the government of Alberta a fee to extract them (that is royalties) and also pays the salaries of the employees and taxes is really no different than the relationship the gov't of Ontario has with its most significant employer(s) - GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyata, Honda, etc. Last time I checked, these companies were also foreign owned.

Boris 550:

As for our economy being "in the red," Toronto's economic growth is expected to be 5.3% for 2004.


shreddog:

Concerning proofs, are you asking about corporate ownership or oil subsidies from the 1959 to the 1970's? As for comparing oil resources to Ford et al., there are significant differences. But I see your point concerning extraction: I was unclear. I should have said that many of the companies pumping oil are foreign owned now.

In 1959, Diefenbaker's national oil policy, known as the Borden Report (named after one of the authors of the policy) was established. The policy essentially forced eastern provinces to buy western Canadian oil at prices well above the world average (pre-OPEC times). Some of that money was used to support oil exploration and to build a pipeline to transport the oil to eastern provinces. The policy nearly destroyed Quebec's petrochemical industry.

By the way, Ontario was the first petroleum producing province in Canada: Petrolia, near Sarnia, starting in the 1850's. Some wells are still active. Many of the empty wells are used to store natural gas now.

let me correct this, I think we get about 95% from the transfer payments.

or maybe more ?

A little off topic--

Just moved to Montreal from T.O., I miss my home :(. I'm staying here long enough to vote yes for seperation and then scurry back to the greatest city in the world lol.

But the transfer payments to Quebec are a joke. The place is mismanaged, and on top of that they don't want any part of Canada but they'll take our money.

A little off topic--

Just moved to Montreal from T.O., I miss my home :(. I'm staying here long enough to vote yes for seperation and then scurry back to the greatest city in the world lol.

But the transfer payments to Quebec are a joke. The place is mismanaged, and on top of that they don't want any part of Canada but they'll take our money.


I can't stand that about quebec either... they get access to so much government funding and stuff while some people in other provinces that really need it don't get any.

I have heard of some people over there that get over $1000 a month from welfare plus what they make working cash, and only pay like $400/month for rent, while on the other hand you get people in other provinces (ie Ontario) that really need the money and the max you can get here is like $900 and some how you gotta pay your $800 for rent. I'm not saying this doesn't happen in other provinces.... but over there anyone can get easy money.

Also heard about another program that you get $$ from the gov if only one person in the house hold is working. While here in Ontario if you make more than the max you can't get any funding.

That's pretty messed up.

Bizorcky: It's not that Ontario's economy is doing that poorly or that it isn't growing, but Ontario has a huge deficit and the provincial debt is still rising.

elsonic:
The number I heard was around 62% or so (Quebec's portion of transfers). That's a huge chunk of cash - something like $6 billion.

Boris550:
Ontario does not have the luck of sitting on a large quantity of an increasingly scarce resource that much of the Western world is dependent on. Hence the reason why Alberta can pay off its debt quickly while other provinces can't.

^It doesn't help that most of that $6 Billion going to Elsonic's home province comes from Toronto.

It's good to be hugely in debt under current federal system!
Since Ontario is largest and most powerful province,we should invade Alberta under disguise of democracy, like saying Klein is a gay-bashing dictator. Of course we will find Klein with a lot of beard hiding in a hole, and then we take all of his riches. Muhahaha.

It's good to be hugely in debt under current federal system!
Since Ontario is largest and most powerful province,we should invade Alberta under disguise of democracy, like saying Klein is a gay-bashing dictator. Of course we will find Klein with a lot of beard hiding in a hole, and then we take all of his riches. Muhahaha.

Hahaha, that's not bad.

It's good to be hugely in debt under current federal system!
Since Ontario is largest and most powerful province,we should invade Alberta under disguise of democracy, like saying Klein is a gay-bashing dictator. Of course we will find Klein with a lot of beard hiding in a hole, and then we take all of his riches. Muhahaha.
And don't forget, Alberta is secretly developing WMD! That's our justification for the invasion, we must have that now.

I heard on CTV that quebec gets 63% of all the transfer payments made to the provinces? Can anyone possibly justify this? or is it simply a bribe?

CTV is a canadian CNN. or FOX. or a Globe & Mail TV. you should not watch it.

why don't you guys verify your stats before bashing Québec. because you like it ? well if you like it for real, don't take a look at the official sources, because it may stop your party.

from Finance Canada :
http://www.fin.gc.ca/activty/fedprov-e.html

63%... you are all so ridiculous. but sadly entertaining in some way.

elsonic,

I only had a brief moment to examine the web page you hyperlinked, but I believe that it shows only the distribution of transfers AFTER taxation. Ontario and Alberta pay more into this program than they receive back. And yes, Quebec is the largest recipient in terms of CASH, but not the largest per capita.

census 2001

Québec population :
7 132 000

Canada population :
30 007 000

pop. ratio Qc / Can :
23.8%

-------------------

transferts 2004

Canada to ALL provinces :
51 666 000 000

Canada to Québec :
13 083 000 000

ratio Qc / ALL provinces :
25.3%

-------------------

25.3% of the federal transferts
vs.
23.8% of the total population

-------------------

scandal ?? oh yes I see there's an extra 1.5% in our corrupted pockets...

CTV is a canadian CNN. or FOX. or a Globe & Mail TV. you should not watch it.

why don't you guys verify your stats before bashing Québec. because you like it ? well if you like it for real, don't take a look at the official sources, because it may stop your party.

from Finance Canada :
http://www.fin.gc.ca/activty/fedprov-e.html

63%... you are all so ridiculous. but sadly entertaining in some way.


The only thing ridiculous here is the foolish Quebecers that constantly deny either that the transfer payments do not exist or that Quebec recieves very little.

I suggest that you don't way in on these threads if you a) do not know what you are talking about and/or b) don't want to live up to the fact that Quebec is a huge fiscal drain on the rest of the country. It's just a suggestion to help you look less foolish in the future. ;)

I look foolish to you Homer ?

why ?

because I look at official sources and show you that this 63% is ridiculous ?

explain.

the foolish Quebecers that constantly deny either that the transfer payments do not exist or that Quebec recieves very little.


which foolish Quebecers are you exactly talking about ?

I'll chime in about the Quebec thing. Quebec should be recieving exactly 0% in transfer payments. It has an economic potential and the population base, and it is for shame that it is a have-not. How much actually goes to Quebec is irrelevant.

0% when we send money to Ottawa ?

THAT would be a scandal.

^Why would CTV have any reason to lie?

The government won't put a strait set of figures on their finance web site that you can just look up. If they did that people like Ralph Klien would us it to attack the federal government.

Either you are very naive and don't know what you are talking about or your view of the world is rather miopic when it comes to things outside of your own province.

PS Elsonic: I WAS talking to you when it came to the foolish Quebecer thing. I was just being polite in not pointing fingers.

I look foolish to you Homer ?

why ?

because I look at official sources and show you that this 63% is ridiculous ?

explain.



which foolish Quebecers are you exactly talking about ?

Actually, you should be looking at the "Equalization" section of each transfer breakdown, not the total amount per province.

This list is one of how a total amount of money is divided among all the provinces - it does not take into account how much money is collected from each province therefore doesn't really provide a clear picture.

yes, in the equalization section, I can see that Qc receives the biggest part and that Ontario and Alberta are not receiving any money from that program. but this program is a small part of the transferts.

what I would like to know is the total fiscal amount per provinces sent to Ottawa. that would help. I can't see it in the website. even with all those stats, I don't see where that 63% comes from.

Homer, thank you to stay out of this. I don't like being called foolish.

^Perhaps if you don't like being called foolish you should stop acting foolish. :poke:

As I alluded to earlier, the website is not going to complete the big picture for anyone. Some one with the background in PS or economics would need to scour the site to get a full picture.

When it comes to CTV, they are not unreliable. Since the 63% figure is a solid number, they would have to had done some research to back it up or else they could get nailed for journalistic fraud.

Since the 63% figure is a solid number, they would have to had done some research to back it up or else they could get nailed for journalistic fraud.

bla bla bla. journalists have a solid background in PS or economics. we all know that. everything said in the news or written in the papers is always true. we all know that too.

"I heard someone telling he probably has heard, maybe on CTV, on the news or in a vox pop, that Qc may have 63% of all the federal money per year."

that's about what you say.

+ the insults.

WOW I'm speechless.

Homer get a life instead of insulting strangers on a public forum.

so I agree to say that Québec receives an excellent amount of federal money but 63% of all the money sent to the provinces is strictly ridiculous. whatever, I think Québec, as all the other provinces, get less that what is sent to Ottawa.

^Now most of this statement is even more foolish than the last couple.

so I agree to say that Québec receives an excellent amount of federal money but 63% of all the money sent to the provinces is strictly ridiculous. whatever, I think Québec, as all the other provinces, get less that what is sent to Ottawa.

I highly doubt this and perhaps someone else will explain the situation to you because clearly you won't listen.

The 63% sounds fishy to me and I for one never believe that the news gives the whole story but there is certainly more truth to it than you know

I think I’ve noticed a pattern on these forums :

Someone teases the forum with an argument designed to make Quebec look bad but that is completely unrelated to skyscrapers (what’s this forum about again?).

Lot’s of people use this an opportunity to throw unrelated insults and hateful comments about said province.

Someone from Quebec foolishly tries to answer or reason with the angry mob and gets mauled.

The mob starts screaming that all Quebecers are pussies that can’t take criticism.


Perhaps its time to rename all the Canadian skyscraper forums “Canada’s racist and bigot forum”

God, I hope no one from other countries looks at these.

fguillotte, I hope the same, but except Homer and jesuschrysler (rip), we usualy are able to "talk".

I think I’ve noticed a pattern on these forums :

Someone teases the forum with an argument designed to make Quebec look bad but that is completely unrelated to skyscrapers (what’s this forum about again?).

Lot’s of people use this an opportunity to throw unrelated insults and hateful comments about said province.

Someone from Quebec foolishly tries to answer or reason with the angry mob and gets mauled.

The mob starts screaming that all Quebecers are pussies that can’t take criticism.


Perhaps its time to rename all the Canadian skyscraper forums “Canada’s racist and bigot forum”

God, I hope no one from other countries looks at these.


What a bunch of bull. The province is recieving unheard of amounts of aid whether it is 25% or 63%. I have no problems with Quebec. I was all for the symbolic Meechlake and I think they are a distinct society. If they want their own autonomy, I'm not even against that. But the transfers have to drop. Simple as that.

then you can blame Ottawa too. I think ALL the provinces receive less than what they send to the fed.

how much money sleep in Ottawa ?

then you can blame Ottawa too. I think ALL the provinces receive less than what they send to the fed.

how much money sleep in Ottawa ?

Don't worry, I blame Ottawa too.

Naturally, Ottawa is to blame for most of the problems in this country.

Most of the things that divide us as a nation are caused by the stupid feds.


I think I’ve noticed a pattern on these forums :

Someone teases the forum with an argument designed to make Quebec look bad but that is completely unrelated to skyscrapers (what’s this forum about again?).

Lot’s of people use this an opportunity to throw unrelated insults and hateful comments about said province.

Someone from Quebec foolishly tries to answer or reason with the angry mob and gets mauled.

The mob starts screaming that all Quebecers are pussies that can’t take criticism.


Perhaps its time to rename all the Canadian skyscraper forums “Canada’s racist and bigot forum”

God, I hope no one from other countries looks at these.

Stay out of this, it is internal Canadian politics and you know nothing of it.

Stay out of this, it is internal Canadian politics and you know nothing of it.

of course... :|

Still don't understand why this is in the Toronto forums.

PRIVATE FORUM - NO TRESSPASS

PRIVATE FORUM - NO TRESSPASS

No, I mean, this is the kind of THREAD that should be in the Canada forum. It's in no way, shape, or form related to Toronto.

^Relax Sal, he is just trying to bate somebody into a tiff.

He's been trying like crazy to get me steamed all day!

I have better things to do.

of course... :|

Apperantly not. :weirdo:

stop trying like crazy to get me steamed all day http://forums.beyond.ca/images/smilies/mecry.gif

:lock:

so I agree to say that Québec receives an excellent amount of federal money but 63% of all the money sent to the provinces is strictly ridiculous. whatever, I think Québec, as all the other provinces, get less that what is sent to Ottawa.

You're kidding, right?

The whole reason Quebec is a have-not province is because they receive more in payments than what's sent back to Ottawa.

Yes, all provinces send money to Ottawa in the form of taxes...but when that money is redistributed, Ontario, for example, receives less than it contributed, while Quebec receives much more.

You don't seem to understand what people are talking about here.

:lock:
I can feel myself aging faster already.