If the Houston area was a huge cemetery with its buildings representing tomb stones, beloved forum members, it would have three major areas of burial centering around its downtown area, its Texas Medical Center, and its Uptown area.
My question is has downtown Houston peaked in terms of perception? In other words, if twenty skyscrapers were built in downtown Houston in the near future, would the downtown area be perceived as looking any larger than it already does?
Understand, we are talking Texas here where perception is king. In other words, belove forum members, it never matters whether something is actually bigger down here in the lone star state just as long as it looks bigger. I've never compared and contrasted the cemeteries in Houston versus Dallas - Fort Worth, but I can imagine they make up fairly impressive skylines when they are looked at just right as they are probably quite competive with each other tall wise as well as elaborate in their pretty colors of marble. At the same time, I bet the grave markers in Austin are more lowrise and weird in scale.
If I could overlook downtown Dallas as if it were a cemetary and I was standing above it a thousand feet tall, I would be quite impressed with how the city is trying to establish grave markers in the surrounding eight square miles that surrounds downtown. You see, while downtown Dallas hasn't grown very much over the last twenty-five years, it doesn't look that much smaller than downtown Houston, perception wise.
I mean, how many times has a Houstonian been driving in downtown Houston talking on their cell phones and blowing their noses only to look up to notice a kleenex shaped skyscraper that they had never realized existed before? I mean, what is the sense in building a bigger downtown with millions and millions of added square feet of office space when, after all that time and effort, it still doesn't look any bigger?
Back to the urban cemetary of Dallas! In Uptown Dallas, there aren't hundreds of fifty story kleenex box shaped tomb stones like they have down in Houston, but hundreds of sixteen to eighteen story kleenex box shaped tomb stones with balconies on them so that tiny ant-like Uptownites can sit out on them at their little tea tables typing on their laptops in forums complaining about things like the homeless. When one slowly gazes out at the areas surrounding downtown Dallas, one will be impressed with the little clusters of freshly dug graves going up west in Oak Cliff, south in the Cedars district, east in the Deep Ellum area, and so on.
Indeed, though there isn't any more dead people buried in and around downtown Dallas, perception wise, it just looks a lot bigger than all those dead people buried down in downtown Houston.:)

To answer your question: I don't think downtown Houston has peaked in perception. As it continues to grow - I think it will continue to seem bigger - with every new building that goes in. This will be particularly evident as it fills in more of the parking lots and lower density parts of downtown.

Both Houston and Dallas are approaching a replacement cycle where existing Class A stock has passed the 30 year mark when most buildings require significant remodels and updates. Many are well-maintained but companies looking for green, sustainable environments or just state of the art offices will want something new. The tend is for smaller, greener buildings with large floorplates, meaning less tall. Hess's new digs in Houston are an excellent example of this.

To answer your question: I don't think downtown Houston has peaked in perception. As it continues to grow - I think it will continue to seem bigger - with every new building that goes in. This will be particularly evident as it fills in more of the parking lots and lower density parts of downtown.

Wow, I really admire your patience for accepting my mixed metaphor. I'm still of the opinion that skyscrapers need to be nurtured by lots of midrise and lowrise mixed in and surrounding them. I think this will be happening in the urban core areas of Atlanta in the future and will happen in the Houston area also if and when the energy business located there is finally held in check by a national energy policy. In other words, as the energy business makes up half of Houston's economy, any cutting back by them is going to have an extreme impact on the office supply.

Both Houston and Dallas are approaching a replacement cycle where existing Class A stock has passed the 30 year mark when most buildings require significant remodels and updates. Many are well-maintained but companies looking for green, sustainable environments or just state of the art offices will want something new. The tend is for smaller, greener buildings with large floorplates, meaning less tall. Hess's new digs in Houston are an excellent example of this.

I agree. You know, the catalyst or the blueprint for the way urban areas are structured up north today happened greatly because of high rise residential built in the past by companies. As those old buildings got old, they were replaced by similar sized buildings. The southern cities weren't built on that blueprint.
At first glance, Houston seems to have an ideal urban core made up of three main business districts in fairly close proximity to each other along with lots of other clusters as well in between them. But as things have worked out, that urban core is a long way away from most of the Houston metropolitan area's population of six million.
While they aren't as appreciated, the urban corridors, business districts, and commercial shopping districts in Dallas - Fort Worth better serves the similar sized population of its metropolitan area. As it is a huge distribution center on the scale of Toronto and approaching Chicago, the area has to be spread out. In other words, the tendency to sprawl sometimes becomes a necessity.

It would matter as to where said skyscrapers were built. If more project happen in the center of downtown, like some new project i have heard of that will be located around main street, then this would not lead to downtown looking any larger because things would not be viewable until one is actually in the downtown area.

Now, if the projects get built in more outlying areas such as the edge of downtown close to midtown then downtown might actually look larger because these projects would be more visible, such as the new skyscrapers located around Discovery Green. But this is less likely to happen at this time.

As for Dallas I couldnt tell you.

It would matter as to where said skyscrapers were built. If more project happen in the center of downtown, like some new project i have heard of that will be located around main street, then this would not lead to downtown looking any larger because things would not be viewable until one is actually in the downtown area.

Now, if the projects get built in more outlying areas such as the edge of downtown close to midtown then downtown might actually look larger because these projects would be more visible, such as the new skyscrapers located around Discovery Green. But this is less likely to happen at this time.

As for Dallas I couldnt tell you.

I'm just thinking in terms of efficiency. If the city of Houston was to work at transitioning the surrounding eight square miles into its downtown area, then that core area would become a vacuum for development. Instead, the city is inefficently developing its downtown area while, at the same time, promoting the kind of designs which cut off downtown from the surrounding eight square miles.
Transitioning urban areas together is the way the city of Dallas has been thinking for the last thirty years. I just think Dallas needs to go all out one hundred percent investing fully in developing the surrounding eight square miles leaving downtown Dallas to fend for itself as a development vacuum. It's all about transitioning one urban core into the other. An important transition happening in downtown Dallas right now is the redevelopment of Love Field. This important addition helps solve the question of what will become the prime focus area of Central Dallas for development (which I believe is the area in and around CityPlace).

Mister Nifty,

You are a little obsessed don't you think? Desertpunk gave you a decent reply, but you are starting to dominate this thread in a more annoying way than this thread was dominated by me and QuantumX did with pictures of Miami and Jacksonville.

Perhaps Texas needs its own thread? You should look into getting it started. This is just wasteful chatter that takes up space on the site's server. Comparing those two cities by cemeteries? Come on.

Mister Nifty,

You are a little obsessed don't you think? Desertpunk gave you a decent reply, but you are starting to dominate this thread in a more annoying way than this thread was dominated by me and QuantumX did with pictures of Miami and Jacksonville.

Perhaps Texas needs its own thread? You should look into getting it started. This is just wasteful chatter that takes up space on the site's server. Comparing those two cities by cemeteries? Come on.

The issue I was talking about effects most cities and metropolitan areas. Perhaps not Atlanta so much as that city has the designation of a state capital. As the city of Houston has worked at developing its downtown, the city of Dallas has worked at developing the surrounding eight square miles around its downtown by way of building transitions.
Examples of transitions:
1) Woodall Rogers Freeway was constructed below grade to not divide the neighborhood.
2) A park is being built above the freeway where it runs below grade
3) The Katy Trail was built while it runs parallel with Turtle Creek for much of the way with it being a long established classic in the area.
4) A “signature” suspension bridge is being built to connect Woodall Rogers Freeway to West Dallas.
5) The city redeveloped what had amounted to a waste dump into Victory Park.
6) A trolly was rebuilt in Uptown and then expanded into CityPlace and West Village.
7) The Trinity River is being developed into a park.
8) One commuter rail artery and four light rail arteries have been constructed further transitioning the surrounding eight square miles into downtown.
9) A new terminal at Love Field is nearing completion.
10) A new city owned 1000 room convention center hotel is being connected to the convention center and is nearing completion.
While the city of Dallas has put a lot of effort into redeveloping downtown Dallas as well, in my opinion, it should concentrate one hundred percent on just redeveloping the eight surrounding square miles and on building transitions to connect fuse them into the center urban core as this would leave downtown as a vacuum for development.
Don’t waste motion that costs the tax payer more and actually hurts development.
I am sure a lot of transitions were missed by me that the city of Dallas is working on.

I like this idea of concentrating development around core areas instead of the core area which is already doing well. This could work wonders for midtown in houston.

I like this idea of concentrating development around core areas instead of the core area which is already doing well. This could work wonders for midtown in houston.

Houston and Dallas are built a little differently, so what Dallas is trying to do won't really work in Houston. Houston doesn't compete with other cities. It seems like Downtown has been one of the last frontiers for the Inner Loop. Now that the Downtown, east of Main, has been rejuvenated (rumors of two more residential towers for Downtown), it's spilling over into the East End (spurred by the new Dynamo Stadium).

I like this idea of concentrating development around core areas instead of the core area which is already doing well. This could work wonders for midtown in houston.

Midtown would benefit for sure, but in order to make downtown a vacuum for development, the full eight square miles surrounding it needs to be addressed equally and at the same time. Then downtown would be able to care for itself. Literally, the full eight square miles surrounding downtown Dallas are being fused into the central core. Figure if the park now being built over Woodall is a big success north of downtown, then a park could become a possibility over the I-30 canyon built south of downtown.

Here's my wholly subjective opinion, to go towards the eternal city vs. city rivalry that Houston and Dallas will always have.

Original downtown Dallas seems a little more faded, though maybe that's not a fair statement with the conversion of some older buildings into condos. But you get the feeling that the central city is more dispersed into neighboring Uptown, and the old main street core doesn't have the same magnetism.

Houston seems about the same in terms of niceness/nastyness but in a far more concentrated area. The construction of MainPlace right in the thick of traditional downtown, Discovery Green and its 3 accompanying major building projects doing a lot to infill surface parking lots, and the Pavilions shopping center tying it all together. Unlike Dallas, there has only been some low-rise stuff built in adjacent midtown.

I guess to compare favorably to different cities, Houston=LA, Dallas=Atlanta in the shape and form of their downtowns.

Here's my wholly subjective opinion, to go towards the eternal city vs. city rivalry that Houston and Dallas will always have.

Original downtown Dallas seems a little more faded, though maybe that's not a fair statement with the conversion of some older buildings into condos. But you get the feeling that the central city is more dispersed into neighboring Uptown, and the old main street core doesn't have the same magnetism.

Houston seems about the same in terms of niceness/nastyness but in a far more concentrated area. The construction of MainPlace right in the thick of traditional downtown, Discovery Green and its 3 accompanying major building projects doing a lot to infill surface parking lots, and the Pavilions shopping center tying it all together. Unlike Dallas, there has only been some low-rise stuff built in adjacent midtown.

I guess to compare favorably to different cities, Houston=LA, Dallas=Atlanta in the shape and form of their downtowns.

Midtown has been taking shape for many years now, but not because of downtown. If anything, midtown is fed by the well developed area of Montrose located just to its west. See, the problems with developing an area like Midtown is trying to lay a solid foundation between cycles. In other words, as new developments start up after a recession, many of the old ones fall by the way abandoned as a new generation will come along looking to follow after new trends in real estate.
That is why transitions are important. I've tried explaining this to Houstonian folks for years now, but they just don't seem to understand the point. When one has elevated freeways, they tend to prohibit developments because they hinder growth just enough to the extent that developers feel they won't last through a bust cycle.
You simply have to bury the freeways in order to transition downtown Houston into the surrounding areas.
When downtown Houston becomes better fused with its surrounding areas, developers will feel better about investing because the transitions allow developments to be better revisioned into something else coming out of a bust cycle.
Isn't Houston going through a bust cycle right now?

Midtown has been taking shape for many years now, but not because of downtown. If anything, midtown is fed by the well developed area of Montrose located just to its west. See, the problems with developing an area like Midtown is trying to lay a solid foundation between cycles. In other words, as new developments start up after a recession, many of the old ones fall by the way abandoned as a new generation will come along looking to follow after new trends in real estate.
That is why transitions are important. I've tried explaining this to Houstonian folks for years now, but they just don't seem to understand the point. When one has elevated freeways, they tend to prohibit developments because they hinder growth just enough to the extent that developers feel they won't last through a bust cycle.
You simply have to bury the freeways in order to transition downtown Houston into the surrounding areas.
When downtown Houston becomes better fused with its surrounding areas, developers will feel better about investing because the transitions allow developments to be better revisioned into something else coming out of a bust cycle.
Isn't Houston going through a bust cycle right now?

Because you are dead wrong. Midtown is going along just fine, despite the Pierce Elevated. New projects have just recently been announced for Midtown and some others already under construction. If Midtown doesn't rely on Downtown, why would it be hindered by an elevated freeway separating the two? Many people who live in Midtown do work in Downtown. By the way, Downtown's newest residential tower's occupancy is at 91%. This has made developers want to renovate the old Texaco HQ and build new other new towers (according to HAIF). Houston has a top three multi-family home market in the US. There isn't a bust cycle going on in Houston.

Those elevated freeways you speak of haven't hindered development at all. There are other ways of connected different areas of the city than building a park over a freeway. It continues to spill over at all sides of Downtown. Houston's entire Inner Loop (save for the NE side) has been going through gentrification, for the most part.

I've heard the bus station over there also contributes to the seedy atmosphere.

Because you are dead wrong. Midtown is going along just fine, despite the Pierce Elevated. New projects have just recently been announced for Midtown and some others already under construction. If Midtown doesn't rely on Downtown, why would it be hindered by an elevated freeway separating the two? Many people who live in Midtown do work in Downtown. By the way, Downtown's newest residential tower's occupancy is at 91%. This has made developers want to renovate the old Texaco HQ and build new other new towers (according to HAIF). Houston has a top three multi-family home market in the US. There isn't a bust cycle going on in Houston.

Those elevated freeways you speak of haven't hindered development at all. There are other ways of connected different areas of the city than building a park over a freeway. It continues to spill over at all sides of Downtown. Houston's entire Inner Loop (save for the NE side) has been going through gentrification, for the most part.

Tell you how you can tell what is going on in regards to the BP oil spill. Compare Google and Yahoo maps of local oil and gas service companies. The Google map is newer than the Yahoo and when coompared they show the yards are filling up with equipment they'd most likely be using somewhere out in the Gulf. This isn't a political issue. Think how it was like when the space shuttle blew up. It took NASA two years to figure out how to solve the problem. Government or not, the oil and gas industry is going to have to come with a solution to keep this from ever happening again.
And I think the post above is correct about the bus station being located where downtown meets up with Midtown. In comparison, that park being built over a sunken Woodall Rogers Freeway is close to the most prime real estate in all of Dallas - Fort Worth area. On one side is the Ritz in Uptown and on the other is the Museum Tower being built in the Art's District.
Just a little bit of difference there don't you think?