I heard lots of people saying that Three Gorges Dam would be much bigger and such than Itaipú. But apparently, that does not procede.

The potence of TGD is 18.2 Megawatts. Itaipú is right now 12,5 Megawatts, but will be 16 Megawatts when the last two generators get installed.

But the power production of Itaipú is much larger. 93,4 billion kWh (kiloWatts/hour) from Itaipú vs 84,68 billion kWh from TGD.

Itaipú has only 18 generators, each one with 700 MW, while TGD has 26 generators, each one 680 MW. But the river Paraná is much more estable than the Yang-Tse, and also the waters of the river are regulated by more than a dozen other powerplants up the river.

Turbines
IT---18 (700MW)
TGD--26 (680MW)

Installed Power
IT---12.600 MW
TGD--18.200 MW

Anual Production
IT ---93,4 bilhões kWh/year
TGD--84,68 bilhões kWh/year


Utilized Concreteo
IT ---12,57 million m³
TGD --27,94 million m³


Height
IT---196 meters
TGD --181 meters


Lenght of the barrage
IT --7.700 meters (concrete and earth)
TGD --2.309 meters (only concrete)


Maximum Water Volume Displacement Capacity
IT --62.200 m³/s
TGD --102.500 m³/s

Escavations
IT--63,85 milhões m³
TGD --113 milhões m³

LAKE

Extension
IT ---170 km
TGD --600 km

Area
IT--1.350 km²
TGD-1.084 km²


Number of People relocated
IT--40 thousand
TGD --1,1 million

http://www.itaipu.gov.br/impre/papei/img/fotos/800x600/iluminacao-4.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/impre/papei/img/fotos/800x600/Subestacao-Isolada-a-Gas.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/impre/papei/img/fotos/800x600/vertedouro.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/impre/papei/img/fotos/1024x768/Vista-Geral-Usina--097.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/impre/papei/img/fotos/800x600/1-Roda-da-Turbina--UN-18A.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/fotoi/img/usina/usina_06.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/fotoi/img/usina/usina_04.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/fotoi/img/duasn/duasn_18a_02.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/fotoi/img/duasn/duasn_09a_09.jpg
http://mapx.map.vgd.gov.lv/geo3/Ukr/_Izmantotie%20Atteli/Arzemes/Itaipu.jpg
http://w4.siemens.de/archiv/images/preview/1978_itaipu.jpg
http://home.wanadoo.nl/abeln/brasil/ra/images/05%2001%20itaipu.jpg
http://www.itaipu.gov.br/dados/img/compa/01comp.jpg

It's a shame how much land had to be flooded to serve both massive projects, and the destruction to both villages and natural wildlife, but I guess we need that power. Three Gorges looks cool.

Those are fucking gigantic!!! :eek:

lol...why flight for a bigger dam? Big dam = big destruction, I don't understand why they don't build couple smalll dam...so people still can keep the house no need force to move.

lol, I dont know what you people have against those dams. Look... Brasil has hundreds of smaller dams, but a big one as Itaipu is necessary to supply our needs.

More: ive read already that the number of smaller dams necessary to produce the energy of one big cause more enviromental problems and force more people to move than one big dam.

And also... better to use hidroeletric power than nuclear, or coal, or anything like that. Do you know the quantity of nuclear waste american powerplants generate every year?? Much of that is shipped to poor countries, which then get some small money but huge enviromental problems. Some countries throw the nuclear waste at sea. Really, dams can make people relocate and alter a bit a rivers ecosystem... but they are much more environmental friendly than any other energy generation system! (btw, coal is not a self-renewal resource as water, and produces lots of pollution... and ask Ukranians how many of them needed to be re-located when Chernobyl went KABOOM!

these are both an enormous achievement in construction and engeneering :eek:
much more interesting than skyscrapers !

Damn, that's one heck of a dam!

Seriously, you bring up a good point. Everyone buys into TGD being te biggest and greatest without questioning it. I personally had no idea Itaipu was that massive.

Thanks for all the nice pics too. There's too much text in this forum, it needs to be broken up more.

I thought some chinese guy would come here and say TGD was the biggest and post pictures of it!! :(

Of course, I am not looking forward to the discussion, since Itaipu already won ;) but I really look forward for the pictures!

China needs much more dams and water power plants, just for the sake of ENVIRONMENT. Because China currently more than 80% of electricity comes from coal-burning power plant, which cause heavy pollution, both air and water and earth, just look most of the Chinese citiy pictures. Water power is much cleaner, much more environment friendly.

China has worlds largest water power potential, but only untilize about 10%, the developed nations are much higher, many are close to 100%, even Canada is 80% more. Do the developed nations have heavier pollution than China, no, their air is much cleaner, just because they use much cleaner electricity from water power, instead of coal-burning.

For 3-gorges, there is another big dam only 38km downstream, called Gezhouba dam, The dam is 70meters high. it has another 2.7 MW power intalled and can produce 15.7 billion KWh electricity. So TGD+GD has 20 MW installed power and over 100 billon KWh electricity produced annually. This 2 dams are so closed, actually they are one giant project. GD was built earlier.

On the upstream, at least a dozen more giant dams are u/c. There 4 dams are u/c and planed in one segment, these 4 dams are equal to 2 TG dams in the installed power, and will produce much more electricity than 2 TG dams can do.

I will fully support building dams and hydro-power, stop builting any coal-burning power plants, too much pollution and other problems already.

I agree, let these dams be built. Most of us aren't gonna be alive in the next 400 years so what does it matter? We need the dams now.

BTW, Yangtse river is a major water transport river in the world, so in TGD (same as GT dam), there are many big 5-level waterlocks for passing ships. each waterlock can pass 10,000-ton ships as wide as 34 meters, and there are 2 these waterlocks in the tandem should to should, and additional another world biggest vertical ship passing equipment(donnot know the english words). These ship passing facilities definitly will lose a lot power potential. And make the project much larger and much more challenging, like building another canal for 170 meters high. I don't think IT dam has any ship passing facilities.

water locks
http://www.cq.xinhuanet.com/threegorges/2003-06/05/xin_7284cd8e7e3c405faf06dbbb98194039_1.jpg

http://www.hb.xinhua.org/sx/xw/ttpp/04-19.jpg

http://www.hb.xinhua.org/sx/xw/ttpp/03-15.jpg

http://www.hbtv.com.cn/sanxiaxs/image/fu061205.jpg

http://www.hbtv.com.cn/sanxiaxs/image/fu061202.jpg

http://www.hbtv.com.cn/sanxiaxs/image/fu061203.jpg
http://www.hbtv.com.cn/sanxiaxs/image/fu061204.jpg

http://www.hbtv.com.cn/sanxiaxs/image/fu061206.jpg

waterlocks u/c
http://www.hbtv.com.cn/sanxiaxs/image/fu061208.jpg

hehehehe, hey Snake, in Itaipú website it says TGD will only produce 84,68 billion kWh per year :)

Well, even if it produces 100 kWh per year, it will be about the same as Itaipú.

The only thing as powerful and clean as hidro would be nuclear FUSION. We are still some decades from seeing reliable, cheap fusion reaction.

hehehehe, hey Snake, in Itaipú website it says TGD will only produce 84,68 billion kWh per year :)

Well, even if it produces 100 kWh per year, it will be about the same as Itaipú.

The only thing as powerful and clean as hidro would be nuclear FUSION. We are still some decades from seeing reliable, cheap fusion reaction.


The overall TGD is much bigger than Itaipu when finished. Just look at some websites they'll tell you detail info about the TGD, even Discovery Channel, and TLC had shows about TGD and they all said it'll be the "Biggest dam in the world" but in terms of generating electricty dunno yet.

how do you define the size of a dam?

how much electricity it produces?
how much water it holds back?
the height , length , thickness?
how much concrete was poured and how much earth had to be moved?
the size of the ship locks?

I guess it's not so "black and white" as the old saying goes. However I still believe the 3 Gorges dam is bigger then Itaipu.

Odegaard: lol, I think in the end the most important is the energy it produces! Whats the use of having a 100km long and 1 km tall dam if it only produces 1 Gigawatt?? :)

I also think the main measure should be the amount of power produced.

While dams are great for local air quality, they are NOT emmissions free. Dams in rainforests produce more greenhouse gas emmissions that a coal power plant of equal size. It has been estimated that Dams worldwide contribute 7% of the GHG.

explain it better Glickel.

How can a thing that is not much different than a lake with a waterfall produce greenhouse gas emissions?

explain it better Glickel.

How can a thing that is not much different than a lake with a waterfall produce greenhouse gas emissions?


A dam produced lake floods a vast area with vegetation or biomass. That biomass then decomposes in an anoxic (lack of oxygen) environment which produces methane (think wetlands) a stronger greenhouse gas (GHG) than carbon dioxide, as well as decomposing to produce regular old carbon dioxide. Not only does the biomass decomposition at carbon, but the presence of lake prevents future carbon sequestration from the flooded land.

Search google for "emission dam" for further explanations

Dams in rainforests produce even more GHG, because of the high density of biomass. While dams may not be significantly different than urban sprawl, just think how completely a lake covers an area vs. development.


Second unrelated point: Recently, all major dam projects are done in developing countries. Developed nations have no plans to build major dams, because it would never survive public scrutiny (Partly due to the fact that all of the ideal spots are already taken). While I am not positive, I believe that the World Bank has is no longer funding large dam projects, because of their environmental impact, displacement of people and a number of development issues, such as large centralized projects only help the big companies, not development of poor areas.

So whats the solution in your opinion Glickel? Nuclear Power? Most developing countries would be bombarded to ashes by US if they try to develop anything related to nuclear...

Gas and coal powerplants depend of natural resources few countries have in abundance.

Eolic and Sun power are too expensive for developing countries.

Recently, all major dam projects are done in developing countries. Developed nations have no plans to build major dams, because it would never survive public scrutiny (Partly due to the fact that all of the ideal spots are already taken).

Developed nations are not building large dams now (actualy they are still building) only because they've already built dams on most of their places that suit for dams. All developed nations have utilised their river potential over 80%, including vast nations like Canada and US. And developed nations are still buiding dams, large and small. They are not building that much as they used to be, and again only because have very few places worthy to build dams.

US has never torn down any major dams so far. If big dams are so bad, why not?!

US is still building big dams, so are other major developed nations, Japan, Spain, Italy, Canada etc.
http://www.small-hydro.com/index.cfm?Fuseaction=countries.country&Country_ID=82

The highest dams under construction (in USA) are Seven Oaks (168 m high), Eastside reservoir(three dams, 87 m) and Portegues (82 m).

I am not aware of any big US dams being built. If there are I would like to know. I am a little fuzzy on dam being built outside of the US (except for the big projects like TG), but I know there is a shift going on in the US government and public perception of dam construction.

Snake, your link didn't mention any new major dam construction, just repair work. And of course big dams have not been taken down, the capital investment is too high for that to be economical. The US Army Corp and Bureau of Reclemation are in the process of changing their missions to protect nature, which means is some cases to alter exisiting projects to be for environmentally sensetive (eg. restoration of part of the LA river)

Look, I have a love/hate relationship with dams. I love the fact they provide clean power, supply water to billions and they can look very cool. (Has any one seen Glen Canyon Dam, amazing) Yet they destroy an entire ecosystem, and alter nature beyond recoginition (For example Lake Powell, behind Glen Canyon dam, is a massive lake in the middle of the desert which is a far from natural as one can get.)

Hydropower, while important, is not going to meet the growing demand for clean energy. Hopefully Solar and wind will become more economical.

The two works are an attack against the nature!!. They can be a great engineering work, but their cost is towering, and its impact in the environment is incalculable.
There are better alternatives for the great electric power demand like the small ones central hydroelectric between 40 Mw and 100Mw. These are kinder with the atmosphere, more economic, more efficient and they can be optimized.

For example in brasil, on oneself river is common to build among small hydroelectric 15 and 20 along the river, to produce the same thing that a monster of 1000 Mw. With this solution loses temper in smaller proportion the bed of the river, it is avoided to flood big quantities of productive land (since they work with small differences of height) and their cost is between 30 and 40 more economic%, because it is not necessary to make big excavations com TGD. it is my opinion.

US has never torn down any major dams so far. If big dams are so bad, why not?!

US is still building big dams, so are other major developed nations, Japan, Spain, Italy, Canada etc.
http://www.small-hydro.com/index.cfm?Fuseaction=countries.country&Country_ID=82

The highest dams under construction (in USA) are Seven Oaks (168 m high), Eastside reservoir(three dams, 87 m) and Portegues (82 m).

Hoover Dam and Oroville Dam is the tallest in the US, the Lake Oroville Dam is 773 feet tall and the Hoover Dam is several feet shorter, they're tall but not wide.

A quick point about nuclear power. Europe, particularly France is the largest user of nuclear power and they continue to build new power plants. The produce more nuclear waste than the US. But the US always gets blamed. Just bothers me. Had to get it out.

By the way: Where does France send there nuclear waste?

The truth about the world engery needs is that no form of energy is without problems. Every option has consequences. In the end it comes down to the cost to produce the energy and whether it is worth it. Even coal can be extremely clean is done right. The US has cut its coal emmissions dramatically since the 1970s. Right now the US gets about 50% of its power from coal.

China and Brazil seem to have chosen hydroelectric power. They believe that is the best choice for them. China is building the dam for more than just power. The main reason is flooding and making the shipping channels safer along the Yangtze River. The power production is real nice bonus. From the pics from Brazil, it seems that their dam is primarily for power and possible for flooding. The build what met their needs.

Both are impressive projects and great feats of engineering

I believe Itaipu Dam is highly underrated as a hydropower force in the world. Three Gorges Dam gets the headlines as being (slightly) larger than Itaipu.

I believe building dams like these are priceless to future generations. Another project like Itaipu and 3 Gorges should be built on the Ganges, Brahmaputa Rivers of Indi/Bangladesh/Nepal. Curtailing these rivers would have a massive effect on Bangladesh's population. However, finding the funds to built this in some of the world's poorest nations will need external aid from UN and other nations.

I think Itapu is great dam project, much better than TGD, I think both are important for there own countries and I think China with TGD will at least receive 20% its current needs, whereas Itapu generates all of Paraguay's electricity needs and about 50% Of Brazilian electricity demands.

I think to build equivalent power source such as Itapu or TGD you'd need 12-15 Nuclear Power Plants each costing no less than 3.5 Bn US$ and coming with its own problems for environment. I think Itapu coasted somewhere around 15Bn US$ and TGD about 30Bn US$.

I think it is great what Brazil and China did, building such huge projects will only help those countries energy needs.
If you built few more such plants in China and Brazil you'd be sorted for long time with cheep and environmentally friendly electricity supply.

TGD truly defies engineering constraints. BTW Is there an updated thread on the TGD project here, or in the China sub forum, because I can not find it?

Power-generation is only part of the reason for the Three Gorges Dam. The Yangtse River is a lot like the Colorado River in the US USED to be, before a half-century of dam projects (including Hoover Dam) finally tamed it once and for all and brought it under control. The Colorado River used to change course on a yearly basis, and regularly flooded HUGE areas every spring. The same is true about the YR. It doesn't just cause expensive floods... it actually kills lots of people in those floods, too. The TG Dam would probably have been built anyway, even if it didn't generate a single watt of electricity (for the record, the entire power output of Hoover Dam would barely be enough to run 3 hotels and their casinos on a hot summer day... but nobody would ever propose eliminating it, because electricity is the least of its important benefits).

Incidently, Itaipu isnt only Brazil, its a joint project with Paraguay and Argentina (its on their borders).

Ive been to it and it really is massive....but doesnt feel so special next to Iguaçu.


And while Brasil ahs many dams, they also have nuclear power plants.

Incidently, Itaipu isnt only Brazil, its a joint project with Paraguay and Argentina (its on their borders).

Ive been to it and it really is massive....but doesnt feel so special next to Iguaçu.


And while Brasil ahs many dams, they also have nuclear power plants.

You are not quite right, Itaipu is a Bi-national enterprise, between Brasil and Paraguay, Argentina has nothing whatsoever to do with Itaipu.


mic of Orion... Itaipu can generate all of Paraguay's electricity needs but at the moment most of the Energy goes to Brasil. Paraguay energy needs comes from Itaipu, Acaray dam (100% Paraguayan and older than Itaipu) and Yacyreta dam (Bi-national with Argentina)
Rod

Three Gorges Dam

http://grid.hust.edu.cn/uic06/images/ThreeGorgesDam.jpg

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/05/20/imageXIN10205200043.jpg

http://conradyim.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc_4735wp.jpg

http://www.cnhubei.com/images/200509/hb-2005091604-5.jpg

http://www.fotojinak.info/asie/three_gorges_dam_overview_july13_2003_dg.jpg

http://www.running-dog.co.uk/images/gorge5.jpg

Have you guys noticed that because of this dam the river is less brownish(when gates closed)? I guess because the flow of water has been reduced.

^^it's less brownish because when the gates are closed the silt settles and in a deeper reservoir it's difficult to see the bottom. Normally the river is quite silten hence before the dam was built you can easily see it being brown due to the shallower river portions.

Incidently, Itaipu isnt only Brazil, its a joint project with Paraguay and Argentina (its on their borders).

Ive been to it and it really is massive....but doesnt feel so special next to Iguaçu.


And while Brasil ahs many dams, they also have nuclear power plants.

Exactly, Argentina is not part of the Itaipu Project, yet it has a bi-national dam called Yciretá, like arqdos said.
On the other hand, a great part of Argentina's energy comes from nuclear plants, about 10% of the enrgy produced comes from them, the highet proportion in Latin America, we are now building our third nuclear plant :S